Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:23:19 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 1086 I've been keeping an eye out for a used air compressor so that I can spend more money later on an air brush. In yesterday's paper K-Mart advertised an AC Delco 110v compressor (115 psi, no tank) for about $37 and a 9-gallon air tank (w/ regulator, I believe) for $25. Bingo! My wife bought one & my mother-in-law the other for me as Christmas presents. I can't say how well they'll work yet, but I'm sure they'll do fine. I don't know if it's a national sale, but if so & you're in the market for a compressor, you can save yourself some big bucks. No, I don't work for K-Mart. I'm just trying to keep the DGLE & Tuscan flowing. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 8:02:39 GMT (Original EST) From: KKOLLAR@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL Subject: re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 12474 Sounds like a good deal. If you use petroleum solvent based paints you might consider getting an air dryer too. I got mine from Sears several years back for around $20. Remember as the air is squeezed and put under pressure moisture will condense and might find its way thru the airbrush and wreck that beautiful DGLE paint job. If I may put my two cents in worth about an airbrush too. Although I'd like to have a double action airbrush, I've been using my Badger single action airbrush for 15 years it has always performed beautifully. For painting locomotives & rolling stock the single action works exceptionally well and for those of you with budgetary limits it is the cheaper alternative. In my opinion the only area the double action would make it easier is when painting rust/grime streaks on your weathered cars. And with a little practice the you'll get the same results with a single action airbrush. What you really should be concerned about is a good spray booth. For a great finish they can't be beat but more importantly they protect your health. If your interested let me know and I'll share with you how I built a spray booth from plans in MR. Its so powerful it'll suck a golf ball through a garden hose. It's professional quality and cost me less than $25 to build because I used a motor and fan unit from an old electric clothes dryer. Regards, Kris Kollar ------------- Original Text From: Jerry Shickler , on 10/28/97 8:00 AM: I've been keeping an eye out for a used air compressor so that I can spend more money later on an air brush. In yesterday's paper K-Mart advertised an AC Delco 110v compressor (115 psi, no tank) for about $37 and a 9-gallon air tank (w/ regulator, I believe) for $25. Bingo! My wife bought one & my mother-in-law the other for me as Christmas presents. I can't say how well they'll work yet, but I'm sure they'll do fine. I don't know if it's a national sale, but if so & you're in the market for a compressor, you can save yourself some big bucks. No, I don't work for K-Mart. I'm just trying to keep the DGLE & Tuscan flowing. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:31:45 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: New Equipment Content-Length: 535 I think it's obvious that your new unit can't be a diesel - you are already adjusting the cut-off! Bob Isn't it a little brisk in here? Oy vay. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:45:21 -0600 (CST) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Breakup of Conrail Content-Length: 4162 When the PRR-NYC merger occurred I was way too busy getting an education and earning a living, and much too far removed from the action, to take much notice. I gather from some of the posts I've read recently that there were some real service problems after the merger, problems partly related to the fact that it was a merger of "equals" in which the administrative types, and their respective styles, of both railroads stayed on the job, at least for some time, and partly the problems associated with trying to merge two systems. Some of the same problems seem to be occurring because of the UP-SP merger. I am wondering if these problems will have a ripple effect on the breakup of Conrail. As you may have read or heard, UP had another wreck, this time fairly close to home. The latest information I've obtained this morning from the Railspot listserver is that one train ran a red light. The train that was moving was going only about 10 mph, and both crews evacuated before impact, so no one was seriously hurt. Some of the engines are a total loss. I also just read of Richard Davidson's (CEO of UP) address to the STB addressing the problems UP is facing (I've saved the text if anyone wants to read it). Stuff I read yesterday suggestes that the FRA is ready to step in and "do something" if UP's problems are not fixed fast. Now.... The UP-SP merger was vigorously opposed by State of Texas (and I believe Louisiana), and by many major companies in Texas, claiming that competition would be reduced. Are any states affected by the split up of Conrail arguing as vehemently against the split up? If so, what are their reasons? The SP was an anemic railroad. Not much in the way of profits and not much manintenance. The Sherman Branch of the SP passes within 30 feet of the back door of my daughter's house about 20 miles north of Dallas. Prior to last winter the track looked like a snake tail, and speeds over the line were about 10 mph. UP straightened and leveled the track and speeds are now about 30 mph. This type of maintenance is being done all over the SP system, at least where they have not torn up the tracks. >From what I have seen along the Ohio River, Conrail's tracks are in excellent shape. Hving been pushed aside by the pressure wave, I'd say the trains are traveling about 60 mph in the Sewickley area. Is this the norm everywhere? I also understand that Conrail has been paying good dividends for quite some time. Is this correct? When UP took over SP, I'm told that early retirements of SP personnel were pushed. Now UP is having to hire a lot of people in a hurry to undo the congestion problems. >From talking with an employee of Conrail, and from a couple of posts I've received, it appears that Conrail employees are not happy with the split up and a lot may lose jobs. Just who benefits from this break up? Probably not the employees. Conrail is not big news down here, so I don't read much about the break up-merger. I understand the break up of Conrail is not a done deal yet. As I remember sometime early next year is when the process will be considered. Anyone have an opinion, or read anything, as to whether the massive problems with the UP will cause the FRA or other agencies to think seriously about not breaking up Conrail and merging the two pieces with two different railroads. And finally, if the break up and mergers don't occur, is there any reason that Conrail would not continue to operate as a profitable railroad (I assume it is profitable)? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: P2K GP9's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 08:58:22 -0500 Content-Length: 2668 I just innocently wandered into my local hobby shop last week and saw the P2K GP9's. I hadn't intended to buy any and did not know where I would come up with the money but I fell in love. I hadn't dropped $100 on locos since I started sending my son to private school and getting regular tuition bills in the mail, but these I had to have. After all it was trains or my first born, lets keep our priorities straight ;-) I thought once I got them to the club, ran them and did some work on them, I should offer a report. 1. P2K takes all the fun out of model RRing! They provide almost all the detail you could ever want. So much for superdetailing your commercial diesels! I added the twin-connector MU jumper stands from their parts bag. You have to drill a #76 hole for each of them. 2. They (2 units) pulled a 25 car freight over our steepest mountain at the North Shore Club. I've been told that its 2-2.5%, but I think one spot near the top comes closer to 3%. This was a bit disappointing. Based upon my experiences with their E8s, I expected a lot more; but in retrospect, they can put a lot more weight in an E8 than in a GP9. The cars were all Athearn, InterMountain, Red Cabbose, and other plastic reefers, with a brass caboose. They were begining to break into a sweat with the 25 car train and would not handle 28 cars on the next test. 3. I had to paint the handrail ends yellow. Being their traditional unbreakable "engineering" plastic, I suspect I will spend the rest of my life touching-up the handrail paint. 4. I moved the horns from the top of the short hood. The PRR defined the long hood forward and the horns were either just aft or just forward of the dynamic brake fan. I have picture of both locations. They always faced toward the long hood end. 5. I have not yet added the radio antennae. That will be project #145 on my list. 6. My personal opinion, (and I hope not to restart another of the long threads on this subject) is that they are too green. But to be honest, I hadn't noticed that they were green at all until I ran them with a repainted Athearn GP7B. I intend to weather them with grimy black and hope that will tone down the color. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Roberts' _Triumph_ (was: is this true??) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 9:04:32 EST Content-Length: 1730 > >I haven't yet looked at a copy of Roberts's new book, although I indend to > >do so in the near future. Although the comments on it here and elsewhere in > >cyberspace have been positive, I've also heard some negative comments, most > >of which are critical of the author's "anectodal" style ... which can be > >both entertaining _and_ dangerously subjective. > > I have read this book and yes, I would agree that the style is extremely > subjective. Matters of interpretation are often passed off as fact, in my > opinion. The text also contains a distressingly high number of factual > errors, at the least in the Altoona-Johnstown segment with which I'm most > familiar. The T1 fireman nonsense is so silly as not to warrant further > comment. It is unfortunate that the author did not include a > list/discussion of his sources. Mike et al., I've not read the book yet, but if the book has this degree of problems, y'all should write a letter to the publisher. 5 or 10 such letters would be significant in this small market and would cause the publisher to demand more from Roberts' next go-around. If anyone is willing to compile a list of errors known to them and forward them to me, I am willing to collate and post on my Web site, and notify the publisher of its existence. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 9:15:27 -0600 Subject: Breakup of Conrail -Reply Content-Length: 2407 >>> "harperd@tamug.tamu.edu" 10/28/97 07:01am wrote>>> As you may have read or heard, UP had another wreck, this time fairly close to home. The latest information I've obtained this morning from the Railspot listserver is that one train ran a red light. The train that was moving was going only about 10 mph, and both crews evacuated before impact, so no one was seriously hurt. Some of the engines are a total loss. I live about a mile from the wreck site and was on my way home about 3:30 PM, Sunday, Oct 26, when I spotted the large column of smoke. I got as close as the authorities would allow, which was about 1/4 mile. >From there I could see a jumbled mass of locomotives on fire. One locomotive had climbed up on top of of another and was resting sideways across the track and at about a 45 degree angle on top of the other locomotive. The fire department was pouring several streams of water into the mass and several times I saw large erruptions of flame as a fuel tank exploded. It took well over an hour to knock the fire down to just smoldering. The accident took place on a broad curve just where the double track main out of Houston goes to single track. The area is heavily wooded so that with the curve I am sure neither crew had much time to see the other train before the collision. It is fortunate indeed that they all four jumped. I went by the wreck site last night (Monday) on my way home. All the rolling stock from both trains had been removed. Three locomotives were left in a heap. Two were burned almost beyound recognition. One was obviously a locomotive but heavily dammaged. Lots of heavy equipment around the site and activity to remove the remaining pieces. I do not know when they reopened the track, but last night I could hear many more trains than normal, all night long, as I guess they try to clear some of the backlog. Bill Laird Houston, TX (back home from London) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:29:40 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Triumph 1 Content-Length: 954 Guys... I ran across an ad for this book the other day, which had several glowing reviews from "prominent railroad editors" (none of which were identified). Interesting...seems that Barnard does the same thing with his advertising that he does with his other facts, and that is to literally make them up. It's interesting to note that none of the railroad magazines has bothered to review it. I will not buy it, nor can I recommend it to anyone else in view of it's considerable inaccuracies. Best of luck to Jerry and his new family. Bill Daniels, Tucson AZ ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 9:30:00 -0600 Subject: Air compressor & tank -Reply Content-Length: 2534 >>> "geshick@velocity.net" 10/27/97 10:28pm wrote>>> I've been keeping an eye out for a used air compressor so that I can spend more money later on an air brush. In yesterday's paper K-Mart advertised an AC Delco 110v compressor (115 psi, no tank) for about $37 and a 9-gallon air tank (w/ regulator, I believe) for $25. Bingo! My wife bought one & my mother-in-law the other for me as Christmas presents. I can't say how well they'll work yet, but I'm sure they'll do fine. I don't know if it's a national sale, but if so & you're in the market for a compressor, you can save yourself some big bucks. Congratulations Jerry! You will not regret your decision. With what you describe, you will be able to use the compressor to fill the tank, then manually turn off the compressor and use the air in the tank to supply the airbrush. A regulator on the tank to control the pressure to the airbrush is mandatory. Once the tank is exhausted you will have to manually turn on the compressor and refill the tank. Still much better than buying propellant cans. With the addition of a pressure switch, you can eliminate the manual on/off of the compressor and let the switch turn on the compressor when the pressure in the tank gets below a set value and turn it off when it reaches another set value. As long as the low, turn on value is less than the working pressure out of the regulator and the volume of air being used is less than the output of the compressor, you get a constant flow of air at the regulated pressure. Such pressure switches are available where parts for pressure water systems are sold. I bought mine at Grainger for about $ 20. The one I bought had a set value between the upper and lower limits of 20 pounds and you could adjust where the lower limit was. Mine is set to turn on the compressor at 80 pounds and off at 100 pounds. This is quite a bit higher than the 20-30 pounds usually needed for airbrushing, but I also use my compressor for other things. Enjoy your new supply of air and freedom from propellant cans. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Triumph 1 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 11:46:20 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1863 RE: Folklore I (err...Triumph I): On 10/28/97 11:29 AM, Bill Daniels (bdaniels@rtd.com) wrote: >I ran across an ad for this book the other day, which had several >glowing reviews from "prominent railroad editors" (none of which were >identified). Interesting...seems that Barnard does the same thing with >his advertising that he does with his other facts, and that is to >literally make them up. It's interesting to note that none of the >railroad magazines has bothered to review it. I will not buy it, nor can >I recommend it to anyone else in view of it's considerable inaccuracies. I did buy the book. Yes, I too question many of the claims in the text. However, the book also contains numerous (dozens actually) of photos that I have not seen anywhere else, and they are of interest to me. Therefore, I purchased out of interest in the photography. Unfortunately, with this much criticism in the content of Triumph I, perhaps it will jeopardize the later planned volume on the Middle Division. True, I want to see a Middle Division volume that is accurate, but enough negative feedback to the publisher is likely to axe the project. Hmmm. Tough call. > >Best of luck to Jerry and his new family. Thanks! Mom and baby are doing well. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:41:11 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Triumph 1 Content-Length: 1133 Jerry wrote: >Unfortunately, with this much criticism in the content of Triumph I, >perhaps it will jeopardize the later planned volume on the Middle >Division. True, I want to see a Middle Division volume that is accurate, >but enough negative feedback to the publisher is likely to axe the >project. I guess I'd look at it this way -- almost any book with "PRR" on it will be commercially successful, regardless of quality, just because there are so many PRR fans out there thirsting for more info and with $ to spend on books. My hope is that constructive criticism now of vol. I will cause the author/publisher not to abandon the middle division book, but make it better than vol. 1. We will all gain from such an outcome. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:31:19 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 1528 Kris Kollar wrote, > >you >might consider getting an air dryer too. I got mine from Sears several >years back for around $20. Remember as the air is squeezed and put >under >pressure moisture will condense and might find its way thru the >airbrush >and wreck that beautiful DGLE paint job. I would also recommend a cooling coil between the compressor and the air dryer. I have had the experience in humid Summer weather of the system warming up enough during extended painting that air remained hot enough going through the trap to carry vaporized moisture through as well. An article in the September, 1971, Railroad Model Craftsman described an inexpensive cooling coil. It was made of 12 feet of 3/16 inch copper tubing wound around a propane tank for a 2 inch diameter form, spacing the turns about 1/8 in. apart, with a tee outlet at the bottom with a #70 bleeder hole to continuously drain out water. (Remove the tank after winding the coil). Since using the coil in addition to the moisture trap I have had NO moisture problems. And, Kris, please tell us about the sray booth. Thanks. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 14:56:35 CST Subject: This and that... Content-Length: 2046 Hi, everyone, RE Triumph I, a few thoughts. One, Roberts is his own publisher (I think) so no help will be forthcoming from publisher. Two, with all its faults there is still a lot of good info in the book. The problem is identifying what is the good info. Simple footnoting would help. Three, at the risk of incurring the wrath of older PRR fans, will anyone else tackle projects of this magnitude? Some of the older hands, who know the most, seem unlikely to do much to publish this in my lifetime. One solution - encourage Roberts to have the text reviewed by some of the known authorities on the PRR. Roberts could still retain his anecdotal style so dear to him while correcting some of the obvious gaffes. I am concerned that a full court press of criticism would make a guy with Roberts ego give up on the future volumes. I would second collecting a list of obvious errors to forward to Roberts. Under more misc. thoughts, two questions. One, I'm modeling a MIddle Div. interlocking tower (a modified Gloorcraft Jacks Tower). What was the color of the interior walls of the room with the levers, model boeard, etc.? Was there a standard. The year I'm modeling is the ever-popular 1950. Second, does anyone have info on train operations on the Cherry Tree & Dixonville branch of the PRR? It was in northwestern PA and was jointly owned with the NYC. What sort of equipment was used on passenger runs? Were engines turned? Where? What was the frequency of freight train service? Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: P2K GP9's Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:56:08 -0500 Content-Length: 3554 Andy, I think that you will find that the phase III GP 9s didn't have Trainphone s on them . I say this after searching over 100 photos of GP 9s and have not found them on nany phase IIIs . So maybe you can reduce your project list, ha! Neil Campbell ncampbell@iname.com -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 9:13 AM Subject: P2K GP9's >I just innocently wandered into my local hobby shop last week and saw the P2K >GP9's. I hadn't intended to buy any and did not know where I would come up >with the money but I fell in love. I hadn't dropped $100 on locos since I >started sending my son to private school and getting regular tuition bills in >the mail, but these I had to have. After all it was trains or my first born, >lets keep our priorities straight ;-) > >I thought once I got them to the club, ran them and did some work on them, I >should offer a report. > >1. P2K takes all the fun out of model RRing! They provide almost all the >detail you could ever want. So much for superdetailing your commercial >diesels! I added the twin-connector MU jumper stands from their parts bag. >You have to drill a #76 hole for each of them. > >2. They (2 units) pulled a 25 car freight over our steepest mountain at the >North Shore Club. I've been told that its 2-2.5%, but I think one spot near >the top comes closer to 3%. This was a bit disappointing. Based upon my >experiences with their E8s, I expected a lot more; but in retrospect, they can >put a lot more weight in an E8 than in a GP9. The cars were all Athearn, >InterMountain, Red Cabbose, and other plastic reefers, with a brass caboose. >They were begining to break into a sweat with the 25 car train and would not >handle 28 cars on the next test. > >3. I had to paint the handrail ends yellow. Being their traditional >unbreakable "engineering" plastic, I suspect I will spend the rest of my life >touching-up the handrail paint. > >4. I moved the horns from the top of the short hood. The PRR defined the long >hood forward and the horns were either just aft or just forward of the dynamic >brake fan. I have picture of both locations. They always faced toward the >long hood end. > >5. I have not yet added the radio antennae. That will be project #145 on my >list. > >6. My personal opinion, (and I hope not to restart another of the long >threads on this subject) is that they are too green. But to be honest, I >hadn't noticed that they were green at all until I ran them with a repainted >Athearn GP7B. I intend to weather them with grimy black and hope that will >tone down the color. > >regards >Andy Miller > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:20:21 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Archive Return Content-Length: 752 The archive of PRR-Talk posts is again available at http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/search.htm Sorry for the delay. -Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:43:16 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 729 Jerry Shickler wrote: > ... In yesterday's paper K-Mart > advertised an AC Delco 110v compressor (115 psi, no tank) for about > $37 and a 9-gallon air tank (w/ regulator, I believe) for $25. After a quick second-look, the tank appears to have a pressure gauge, but no regulator. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:01:18 -0500 From: "CronesRacing@disknet.com" Subject: Painting Pensy Steam Locos Content-Length: 755 Hi! I have always painted the frame, pilot,steam cheast, valve gear and side rods engine black on bowser locos, Can any one tell me what color they should be painted, as I believe it is time to get them correct. I am currently working on a Bowser pacific. Also does any one know of a set of dry transfers for for pensy steam. Thanks in advance for your help. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 12:27:50 GMT (Original EST) From: KKOLLAR@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 9694 Although I'm no expert I did talk to the Graphics experts accross the hallway from me and they said that using an air compressor will work well to clean the dirt off your slides. Just don't set the air pressure too high. Kris Kollar, Hershey,PA ------------- Original Text From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com, on 10/29/97 12:01 PM: In a message dated 97-10-29 10:56:52 EST, you write: > > Jerry and All, > It occurred to me after I posted my thoughts about the cooling coil > that it was intended for a low pressure (around 30 PSI) application. > While the copper tubing might withstand 150 PSI, it should be fabricated > with proper fittings, not butt-soldered like the magazine article > suggested. It should be made up without any soft solder butt joints. I > have to stop at a local plumbing supply this morning and will try to > find out what pressure typical copper tubing is rated for. > This is not a modeling question, but I was watching your comments about air compressors and it brings up a question. Is it possible to use a small air compressor to clean dust, dirt etc off 35mm slides? I have some old slides that are dirty and other than buying a can of air, which can get expensive in the long run, or using film cleaner and a qutip (I hope thats how you spell that) which might do more harm than good, I dont know what to do. Has anyone had this problem too. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Subject: Made Change on ListServ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 09:04:20 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2270 Last night, at around 8:30 p.m., I deleted all pending mail in the outgoing queue of the listserv. Some people will miss some posts, and digests will not be distributed. This gives the listserv a "clean slate" for serving. I also increased its memory allocation, in case the duplicates were a result of low memory conditions that were not reported to me automatically. I am also closely watching returned mail. Users with "permanent account errors" are being deleted (not many, and none I recognize). Those reporting "full mailboxes" are being allowed to continue online. The listserv is supposed to -- and seems to -- correctly identify mail bounces and not repost them to the list. I do not think this is a problem. Whether the above two changes will make a difference or not is yet to be seen. Let me know if anyone gets this post more than once...or any other post that was mailed AFTER 9 p.m., 10/28. If duplications again occur, I suspect a problem with an address in the subscription list...probably a new subscriber. I may have to switch the list to MODERATION for troubleshooting. The address would remain the same, but I would receive list mail and forward it to the listserv for distribution. Unfortunately, this would only happen first thing in the morning and then several times during the evening. However, it would allow me to see if multiple posts are coming in, and what their "headers" look like. The listserv replaces these headers with its own, making the audit trail hard to follow. Again, thanks for your patience. This is frustrating, as nothing changed at my end and the problem just developed on its own. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:59:35 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 904 Jerry and All, It occurred to me after I posted my thoughts about the cooling coil that it was intended for a low pressure (around 30 PSI) application. While the copper tubing might withstand 150 PSI, it should be fabricated with proper fittings, not butt-soldered like the magazine article suggested. It should be made up without any soft solder butt joints. I have to stop at a local plumbing supply this morning and will try to find out what pressure typical copper tubing is rated for. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Errors in PRR books Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 9:46:07 EST Content-Length: 777 I'm officially widening my offer. I am willing to collect, collate, and Web-publish errata for all PRR-related books. Authors of the comments have to agree to have their name next to the erratum. I'll create the page just as soon as I get the first items. Those of you who've mentioned stuff about _Triumph I_, please re-send them to me. Thanks. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: P2K GP9's Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:54:25 -0600 Content-Length: 4080 ---------- From: N Campbell Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 8:56 PM To: Andrew S. Miller; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: P2K GP9's Andy, I think that you will find that the phase III GP 9s didn't have Trainphone s on them . I say this after searching over 100 photos of GP 9s and have not found them on nany phase IIIs . So maybe you can reduce your project list, ha! Neil Campbell ncampbell@iname.com -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, October 28, 1997 9:13 AM Subject: P2K GP9's >I just innocently wandered into my local hobby shop last week and saw the P2K >GP9's. I hadn't intended to buy any and did not know where I would come up >with the money but I fell in love. I hadn't dropped $100 on locos since I >started sending my son to private school and getting regular tuition bills in >the mail, but these I had to have. After all it was trains or my first born, >lets keep our priorities straight ;-) > >I thought once I got them to the club, ran them and did some work on them, I >should offer a report. > >1. P2K takes all the fun out of model RRing! They provide almost all the >detail you could ever want. So much for superdetailing your commercial >diesels! I added the twin-connector MU jumper stands from their parts bag. >You have to drill a #76 hole for each of them. > >2. They (2 units) pulled a 25 car freight over our steepest mountain at the >North Shore Club. I've been told that its 2-2.5%, but I think one spot near >the top comes closer to 3%. This was a bit disappointing. Based upon my >experiences with their E8s, I expected a lot more; but in retrospect, they can >put a lot more weight in an E8 than in a GP9. The cars were all Athearn, >InterMountain, Red Cabbose, and other plastic reefers, with a brass caboose. >They were begining to break into a sweat with the 25 car train and would not >handle 28 cars on the next test. > >3. I had to paint the handrail ends yellow. Being their traditional >unbreakable "engineering" plastic, I suspect I will spend the rest of my life >touching-up the handrail paint. > >4. I moved the horns from the top of the short hood. The PRR defined the long >hood forward and the horns were either just aft or just forward of the dynamic >brake fan. I have picture of both locations. They always faced toward the >long hood end. > >5. I have not yet added the radio antennae. That will be project #145 on my >list. > >6. My personal opinion, (and I hope not to restart another of the long >threads on this subject) is that they are too green. But to be honest, I >hadn't noticed that they were green at all until I ran them with a repainted >Athearn GP7B. I intend to weather them with grimy black and hope that will >tone down the color. > >regards >Andy Miller > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: P2K GP9 PH III Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:17:53 -0600 Content-Length: 1754 Neil Campbell wrote: "I think that you will find that the phase III GP 9s didn't have Trainphone s on them . I say this after searching over 100 photos of GP 9s and have not found them on nany phase IIIs" . My understanding is that all 4-axle units until the fourth U25B and first GP35 originally had trainphone antennas. For example , I have seen one photo of a GP30 with only the stanchion stubs left (antenna half removed). Neil, in your research you may be facing the same phenomenon I had when I questioned the tailsign on Tower and Mountain View. I since found in a 1980 Rails Northeast a picture of the 4-track "Broad Way" tailsign on one of these cars and a comment from Bob Reid that he wasn't sure but thought that tailsign was changed to letters only in 1962. That would mean that from 1949 to 1962 these cars had the original tailsign and I have found only that one operations photo to show it! All others that I saw must have postdated 1962 or Reid was off (as he said, he wasn't sure). You may have a similar date phenomenonon in your Phase III photo/slide collection (or, horrors, I am wrong about my first statement). BTW, Rails Northeast article in early 80's on GP9B's stated all were Phase III, in case that question comes up. I solve these problems by establishing December 18, 1951 as my equipment cutoff date. Regards Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:39:07 -0500 (EST) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 1516 In a message dated 97-10-29 10:56:52 EST, you write: > > Jerry and All, > It occurred to me after I posted my thoughts about the cooling coil > that it was intended for a low pressure (around 30 PSI) application. > While the copper tubing might withstand 150 PSI, it should be fabricated > with proper fittings, not butt-soldered like the magazine article > suggested. It should be made up without any soft solder butt joints. I > have to stop at a local plumbing supply this morning and will try to > find out what pressure typical copper tubing is rated for. > This is not a modeling question, but I was watching your comments about air compressors and it brings up a question. Is it possible to use a small air compressor to clean dust, dirt etc off 35mm slides? I have some old slides that are dirty and other than buying a can of air, which can get expensive in the long run, or using film cleaner and a qutip (I hope thats how you spell that) which might do more harm than good, I dont know what to do. Has anyone had this problem too. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:26:14 -0500 (EST) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Bank Now Data? Content-Length: 1852 Jerry and all, I just received the following and I'm confused, to say the least. The file that is attached pertains to "Bank Now Data". Did anyone else get this? George >>Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Date: 97-10-29 12:42:59 EST From: KKOLLAR@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: Bnsftulsa@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com File: ATTRIBS.BND (5213 bytes) DL time (26400 baud): < 1 minute ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from mrin70.mail.aol.com (mrin70.mail.aol.com [152.163.116.108]) by air05.mail.aol.com (v35) with SMTP; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:42:59 -0500 Received: from [204.186.21.83] (cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net [204.186.21.83]) by mrin70.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id MAA07069; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:40:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Wed, 29 Oct 97 12:38:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 12:27:50 GMT (Original EST) Message-ID: From: KKOLLAR@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL To: Bnsftulsa@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank X-Incognito-SN: 880 X-Incognito-Format: VERSION=1.74 ENCRYPTED=NO Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@COASTALCORP.COM Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:32:39 -0600 Subject: NOVATECH Complaints Content-Length: 1363 There have been previous posts here regarding complaints against NovaTech Plastics for delivery of substandard merchandise, failure to deliver, and the inability to obtain refunds. Having suffered from NovaTech's dishonest business practices, I have done a little research and discovered that complaints against them should be made to: Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations Communications Services Branch 250 Yonge Street, 35th Floor Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5B 2N5 I urge all of you who have had bad experiences with NovaTech to send details to the above address. Enough complaints may warrant action. I also sent a copy of my complaint to Kalmbach Publishing at the following address urging them not to accept any future advertising from NovaTech. Model Railroader Kalmbach Publishing P.O. Box 1612 Waukesha, WI 53187-1612 Please pass this information on to anyone else who has been victimized by NovaTech. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Painting Pensy Steam Locos Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:13:18 -0500 Content-Length: 2276 Jeff, There have been many threads on painting on this list before and some are archived. For my 2 cents worth of advise, I would not paint the side rods, main rods & valve gear black. On a locomotive in service these parts tend to be oil covered, natural metal color, with whatever grime that may have accumulated in service. Due to the nature of steam locomotive service and use, the "rods" would have had a lot of lubrication and inspection from crews and shop personnel. The piston rod would be almost a mirror finish until just before it's connection to the cross head. (the stroke determines where the grime-line begins) As a side note, most railroad's engines had the road number and the letters L & R stamped on unique parts of the rods and valve gear for ID during shop work. Of course you would have to be modeling in 3/4" scale to ever see them. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: CronesRacing@disknet.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Painting Pensy Steam Locos > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 6:01 AM > > Hi! I have always painted the frame, pilot,steam cheast, valve gear and > side rods engine black on bowser locos, Can any one tell me what color > they should be painted, as I believe it is time to get them correct. I > am currently working on a Bowser pacific. Also does any one know of a > set of dry transfers for for pensy steam. > Thanks in advance for your help. > Jeff > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Breakup of Conrail Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:54:33 -0500 Content-Length: 1156 > I gather from some of the posts I've read recently that there were some real > service problems after the merger, problems partly related to the fact that it > was a merger of "equals" in which the administrative types, and their respective > styles, of both railroads stayed on the job, at least for some time, and partly > the problems associated with trying to merge two systems. > > Some of the same problems seem to be occurring because of the UP-SP merger. I > am wondering if these problems will have a ripple effect on the breakup of > Conrail. >From all the things I've read coming from NS, they are suppose to be studying the problems these other roads had in hopes to avoid the same mess. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:59:21 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Air compressor & tank Content-Length: 2029 Bnsftulsa@aol.com wrote: > > Is it possible to use a small air compressor to clean dust, dirt > etc off 35mm slides? I have some old slides that are dirty and other > than buying a can of air, which can get expensive in the long run, or > using film cleaner and a qutip (I hope thats how you spell that) which > might do more harm than good, I dont know what to do. > Has anyone had this problem too. > Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com Dick, You are probably in a drier climate than where I grew up, in Beaumont, Texas. We had humidity there that would rot plastic screwdriver handles. One problem we had with slides (and lenses) was a fungus that grew on the surfaces, including the inner elements of camera lenses. It looks like little thready lines, almost like spider webs, and will eventually eat into the surface and become permanent. Any external buildup we removed with alcohol, probably isopropyl. Rubbing alcohol contains glycerin, and denatured alcohol leaves a heavy residue. Q-tips work for this. For the last 30 years or so, at least Kodak processing has been putting a coating on slides that should protect them; earlier slides can be hit pretty badly. Fungus inside a lens is a job for a good camera repair shop. As long as you are using clean air, from a diaphragm compressor, or have adequate filtering on a piston compressor,you should be all right. Back on the main subject, I am still looking for the pressure rating of copper tubing - maybe tomorrow. Windsurfing called today. Not too many left - water down to 51 deg f., but some great rides! Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:14:00 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Chris Brandt's PRR-Talk Archive Content-Length: 915 It's great to see Chris Brandt's PRR-Talk archive back online. It makes sifting through all the info here much easier. I found, however, that I've been shooting myself in the foot by including my hometown in my signature file (message at the bottom of all my e-mails). When I searched for posts relating to Erie, all of my posts & all those which quote them show up, whether they pertain to Erie or not. Just a hint to those who do the same... -- Jerry Shickler (for the last time...) Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:48:10 -0500 From: "CronesRacing@disknet.com" Subject: Painting Pensy Steam Content-Length: 1364 First of all I would like to thank all of you for your excelent and most helpfull replies, about paint colors. Secondly I would like to say that I only posted the message once. I am not sure why any one would get more than one copy other than the server problems. I understand from what I have read that this problem is being addressed. I do not think there is any need for the type of reply that follows. The person responsible for the reply most likley didn't know the answer either. SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > You posted the exact same message seven times (6:07, 6:09, 6:12, 7:25, 7:28, > 7:30, and 11:05 all pm EST). Do you expect and instanteous answer or are you > in the middle of a paint job and decided to ask. This is a waste of band > width and my connect time. Since I had to spend so much time reading your > repeated message, I don't have time to answer. Thanks, Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Duplicates Anyone? Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 08:08:49 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1146 Since my post referring to changes yesterday, only one person has reported duplicates. It was a minor case involving two posts. There was also a comment about "Bank Now Data" with a purported attached file. The listserv doesn't allow attachments, so it wasn't included. Has anyone been receiving dupes since 8:30 p.m. on Tuesday, Oct. 28th? If so, what was the SUBJECT, who was the SENDER, and what time(s) did it appear to have been sent? I have more in-depth logging turned on, which may help. Thanks for all of your patient cooperation. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Benn" Subject: U33C modeling Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:32:02 +0900 Content-Length: 1303 SPF children of diesel, Receiving a couple Atlas models soon and have been reading as much as I have resources about the PRR ordered units. Anyone tackled the project and have some lessons learned or can you point me to a discussion that predates my subscribing (pre OCT97). Especially concerning the number of equipment box doors under the cab, the corresponding handrail (re)arrangement, and the hood opening filters back on the radiator section. Also, were can you get cab signal equipment boxes (old-big, newer-smaller) that PRR placed in front of the engineers side of the cab. Also has there been discussion of a what if roster similar to that presented on one of the EL pages? Would PRR been driven by fuel considerations to the medium horsepower B-B units like the (PC) did? Any discussions and insight on this would be appreciated! Along the Tokaido mainline, near Yokohama Japan Dave ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 8:38:20 -0600 Subject: NOVATECH is at it again! Content-Length: 968 Keep your credit cards in your wallets and your checkbooks closed. NovaTech Plastics is baiting PRR modellers with dreams of C-Liner shells (comming soon according to their ad in the latest MR). Remember the FM-Erie Built shells. Many orders were never shipped. Those who did receive them sent them back because they were trash and they can't get refunds (even though the NovaTech web site says "Satisfaction is guaranteed, or you money will be cheeffully refunded"). You have been warned! Bill Laird Still waiting for the FM-Erie Built shells ordered March 20, 1997. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:47:25 +0000 Subject: Re: U33C modeling From: locoshop@juno.com (Jeremy C Helms) Content-Length: 2118 Hello. The equipment boxes are available from Detail Associates--both the large and small ones. Also wanted to let you know that myself and a couple others are working on modernizing the PRR. We took it from the perspective that the PRR-NYC merger was denied and worked it from there. PRR has remained the dominant railroad in the East--becoming the eastern equivalent of the UP who bought out all these railroads and remains its own entity. They have purchased Central of NJ, N&W, LV, and a number of other smaller roads. This is a work in progress. We have hammered out the October 1997 motive power roster and are in the process of breaking it down into orders and years delivered. We have yet to tackle the ominous task of car roster, train symbols, train schedule, route mileage, tonnage, traffic flows and so on. We are make the PRR the "Standard Railroad of the World" again with PRR going MOSTLY to EMD for their products like the PRR of the late 60s. Any help or anything you wish to give ideas on would be greatly appreciated. Question: Are you going to do the U33Cs in PRR or PC as they really were delivered? I currently have a PRR Kato -9, Athearn GP40-2, and Athearn SW1500. Again this is a progress in work. Kevin Tully (another fellow doing this) and myself have access to our own web pages (mine is in the works) where we are going to put forth the history (post 1968) and roster, schedule, and photos of modern PRR units and cars. Just some ideas on what is going on. We are the only group doing this at present that we know of. We were thinking if we standardize this others might follow and make it even more plausible. Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:48:25 -0400 From: smithfam@earth.sunlink.net Subject: Track Map Content-Length: 664 Does anyone have any ideas about where I can find a detailed map of the Pennsy? My areas of interest are Sunbury & Lewistown R.R., Selinsgrove, Sunbury, Lewistown, and Harrisburg. An internet downloadable map would be the easiest for me to work with. Thanks alot, Brandon Smith ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:13:31 -0800 From: Stan Feldman Subject: PRR-PAGE-UPDATED !! Content-Length: 1140 Hello all stations; I have updated my PRR Vintage Ad Page at--- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/vintage.html with some new images, and broken down the page into 4 sections so it will be faster to load.< I hope !! > Please visit and enjoy !! Stan *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:40:57 EST Subject: Re: Painting Pensy Steam Content-Length: 1502 In a message dated 97-10-30 17:15:31 EST, CronesRacing@disknet.com (CronesRacing@disknet.com) writes: << (snip) Secondly I would like to say that I only posted the message once. I am not sure why any one would get more than one copy other than the server problems. I understand from what I have read that this problem is being addressed. I do not think there is any need for the type of reply that follows. The person responsible for the reply most likley didn't know the answer either. >> Jeff: Since your message was the only one which appeared multiple times unlike previously when most messages were reposted several times, it leads one to belive it is not the list server. As to your last sentence, your about as close to be correct with your assumption as those who continue to support the theory that the earth is flat and there are any number of people on this list who know that. Since this is way off topic, I will not respond to any further postings regarding this matter. Particularly when my posting was private reply to you and you reposted it on the list. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:07:41 -0500 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: P2K E7's in DGLE! Content-Length: 1054 Here is a post from rec.models.railroad: > The fourth run of E-7's will include the PRR's Brunswick Green with 5 > stripe variation. Two A's and two B's will be available. The > complete listing of the E-7's and the new run of 8,000 Gallon tank > cars will be in the Railroad Telegraph on our web site by tomorrow. > > Dennis > D & S HOBBIES > And the world rejoices! BTW, I only received one copy of the disputed 'Painting Pensy Steam' post. I've been a subscriber since May, & this is the first time I've seen anything but respect & helpfulness on PRR-Talk. Let's save the ill feelings for NYC fans :-) -- Jerry Shickler e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:48:27 -0500 From: jlrosen Subject: Con-Cor E-7As for sale Content-Length: 871 I haven't been on the list too long so I'm not sure this is proper but: I have two HO scale Con-Cor E-7As I would like to sell. I won them at our club banquet a few years ago and had planned to detail and paint them BUT... They are single stripe Tuscan different numbers, new in box and have been test run only. Included is one set of Cal-scale nose lift rings and one set of antenna stantions. Price is $50.00 for the pair including shipping. Thanks, John W Rosenbauer ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:12:10 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: How to paint PRR Steam Again? Content-Length: 1788 Hi Folks, FIrst let me say congrats to Jerry on his new "switcher" loco! I have two Kato Mikados in N-scale that I want to repaint. I seem to remember a number of threads about painting steam locos, so please forgive my asking again for the basic paint scheme. I seem to remember the roof of the cab is painted brown. What color was the firebox? I'm thinking about doing my own modifying of the Mikado to represent an L-1 instead of the L-2. I think I can create a Belpaire boiler on the Kato shell. I know some of the other details won't be exact. I'm also going to try and move the headlight up to the top. That and I want to add a "doghouse" to the tender. I know GHQ is taking reservations on L-1 kits but at $100 a pop, it's a little tight for my budget at this point. Does anyone have any good plans to work from that I could get a xerox of? Any suggestions about making the firebox correctly? Speaking of Sharks, I have two RF-16s that I made by converting an Atlas RS-11 and using a body shell from RainTree products. They work really well. I would love to find a BP-20 but the last one I saw in N-scale was $250 and it was resin castings. So I stay happy with my Lifelike E8 painted in Tuscan with the single stripe and large letters. I run it in front of some Kato Passenger cars. Thanks for the help! Roger Elliott relliott.telis@mail.telis.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lyperson@webtv.net (Lyman Mark) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:40:38 -0600 Subject: Lewisburg & Tyrone Content-Length: 736 Earlier there was interest expressed concerning maps and info about the Sunbury & Lewistown R.R. I have the same desire for info about the Lewisburg & Tyrone. I know that nowadays there's a tourist line that runs between Lewisburg and Mifflinburg but I haven't had much luck finding out about the past. Any ideas where I can look? Thanks. Lyman ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:29:49 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: E-R Models: RF16, FP7A. Content-Length: 757 Hi All, For those interested in the re-issue of the Roco Sharks and FP's there is a picture in the Nov. 97 "Model Railroad News". Yes, the Shark is Tuscan 5-stripe. The FP is painted for some obscure west coast short-line. Something to do with spiders, I think. They state in the text "refinements include new motor, DCC ready...". Due out in "98". Enjoy, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:29:33 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Lewisburg & Tyrone Content-Length: 965 Lyman Mark wrote: >Earlier there was interest expressed concerning maps and info about the >Sunbury & Lewistown R.R. I have the same desire for info about the >Lewisburg & Tyrone. There is no one source that covers the L&T branch very well. Mostly bits & pieces scattered throughout articles, books etc. But you might start with a master's thesis, William P. Hughes, Centre County Railroad Development and Progress, 1850-90, that was done at Penn State in 1977. It should be available on interlibrary loan. It gives a lot of background on building the L&T. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: More on Duplicates Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 10:38:44 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1081 This morning I reinstalled the ListServ software...but retained the existing subscriber list and preferences files. I also reduced the number of concurrent outbound SMTP connections from 5 to 3, thinking it could be a timeout problem. As of this post, please report dupes to "listmaster@dsop.com" so that I may troubleshoot it over the weekend. As always, thanks for your very gracious patience. I am totally sympathetic to what my server must be doing to your mailboxes. 8-( --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: NYLE 6101 (fwd) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:24:42 EST Content-Length: 1323 Greetings, all. Forwarding from personal email. Please respond to the author if you can help. Forwarded message: > The New York and Lake Erie RR in upstate NY (Buffalo area) currently > rosters an ALCO c-425 that came from Morrison Knudeson in Hornell NY as > 6101. > > I understand that the unit was previously a PRR unit. There is a spot in > the cab that has the distinct shape of a cab signal. > > I dont know what the PRR number may have been but I am looking for any > info concerning the history of this unit. > > Thanks in Advance for any info you might be able to provide! > > William J. Enser Co-Network Administrator > Technical Support & Validations > alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System > X2 & K56flex Access bbs.bluemoon.net - Bulletin Board System > http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMUD -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:55:42 -0500 (EST) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: How to paint PRR Steam Again? Content-Length: 1790 Roger: The exact painting instruction for PRR steam changed several times. Generally, the painting instructions for post WWII were as follows. Tender: Sides and ends DGLE. Underframe and trucks -- black. Tender deck varried as to when it was painted, i.e. new construction, minor repair, major repairs. A 50-50 mixture of PRR freight car color and black is the safest choice. Locomotive: Frame, valves, running gear, pilot -- black. Smoke box, ash pan, fire box - powdered aluminium mixed in oil. The amount of powdered alumium varried from one paint shop to another depending on the aesthetic of the shop foreman. Thus you may have a very shinny aluminium color or a very dark dull color. The fromulae for mixing the color is as varried as the original paint color. Aluminium mixed with black to a color you like is usable. I use Floquil gun metal and black in approximately a 60-40 ration. However every batch is different. The cab roof may be painted a "brown" color or DGLE. As with the tender deck, the exact color depends on the reason for the re-paint. Generally, a mixture of freight car color and black will suffice. Even new paint jobs of plain freight car color quickly darkened because of soot from the locomotive. The remainder of the loco is DGLE. Some locos had gold leaf around the cab windows. Interior of the cab is light green. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Drye, John" Subject: E7s in Brunswick Green Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:19:43 -0500 Content-Length: 925 >Here is a post from rec.models.railroad: > >> The fourth run of E-7's will include the PRR's Brunswick Green with 5 > >>stripe variation. Two A's and two B's will be available. The > complete >>listing of the E-7's and the new run of 8,000 Gallon tank > cars will be in >>the Railroad Telegraph on our web site by tomorrow. >> Who is the manufacturer of the upcoming E7s? What scale? (As an N-Scaler, I'm used to assuming HO in lieu of specific information to the contrary, but I'm always optimistic ) Thanks, John Drye ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Duplicate Posts Update --Know the Problem! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 23:01:20 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2383 Though not yet resolved, we have pinpointed the cause of the duplicate posts. Please stand by as the publisher of the software works with me...which will likely be on hold until Monday. In a nutshell: The server optimizes deliveries when there are multiple recipients within a destination domain. It can send the message once, with an attached distribution list. Going through the logs, using feedback from subscribers, we can track when the first copy of a message was sent...backtrack to find when the connection was opened...and follow it as it creates the distribution list for the domain. The message is then transferred. In EVERY case, the destination mail server does not confirm receipt. About two minutes later, the listserv times out the connection and contacts the next MX-record mail server for the domain. The cycle repeats until the receipt is finally received. If one is not recieved and there are no more mail servers at the domain, the listserv waits an hour and tries again. Therefore, the number of posts you receive in a "batch" is equal to the number of servers accepting mail for your domain. In the case of AOL, for instance, there are usually three servers. Therefore, AOL users get three copies of the message, then more an hour later, until finally the AOL server confirms receipt! NO, I am not blaming this on the destination servers! It is likely a timeout issue on my server, my connection, my ISP, or somewhere along the line. That is where we are "testing" wise. We know the problem, we just need to correct it! BTW: This is why most users that are the sole subscriber at their domain do not receive dupes, including myself at my work address and at this address. Sure makes troubleshooting tough! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:17:49 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: E7s in Brunswick Green Content-Length: 1731 Drye, John wrote: > >Here is a post from rec.models.railroad: > > > >> The fourth run of E-7's will include the PRR's Brunswick Green with > 5 > > >>stripe variation. Two A's and two B's will be available. The > > complete > >>listing of the E-7's and the new run of 8,000 Gallon tank > cars > will be in > >>the Railroad Telegraph on our web site by tomorrow. > >> > > Who is the manufacturer of the upcoming E7s? What scale? (As an > N-Scaler, I'm used to assuming HO in lieu of specific information to > the contrary, but I'm always optimistic ) > > Thanks, > > John Drye > Hello John and others,I'm also an N-thusiast. I would like to verify if E7's were ever painted in PRR Green (or Brunswick or DGLE, etc.). While I'm thinking of it, where can I get plans or drawings of the Steam Turbine S-2? I have photos and an HO model in brass, but I'd like to find the plans/dimensions, etc. Thanks, Roger Elliott > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:14:09 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Painting PRR Steam Locos Content-Length: 1710 Hi Folks, FIrst let me say congrats to Jerry on his new "switcher" loco! I have two Kato Mikados in N-scale that I want to repaint. I seem to remember a number of threads about painting steam locos, so please forgive my asking again for the basic paint scheme. I seem to remember the roof of the cab is painted brown. What color was the firebox? I'm thinking about doing my own modifying of the Mikado to represent an L-1 instead of the L-2. I think I can create a Belpaire boiler on the Kato shell. I know some of the other details won't be exact. I'm also going to try and move the headlight up to the top. That and I want to add a "doghouse" to the tender. I know GHQ is taking reservations on L-1 kits but at $100 a pop, it's a little tight for my budget at this point. Does anyone have any good plans to work from that I could get a xerox of? Any suggestions about making the firebox correctly? Speaking of Sharks, I have two RF-16s that I made by converting an Atlas RS-11 and using a body shell from RainTree products. They work really well. I would love to find a BP-20 but the last one I saw in N-scale was $250 and it was resin castings. So I stay happy with my Lifelike E8 painted in Tuscan with the single stripe and large letters. I run it in front of some Kato Passenger cars. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: geshick@velocity.net Date: 04 Jun 97 23:33:57 UT Subject: Re: Anyone know Tuscan background HTML code? Content-Length: 879 jerry@dsop.com wrote: > > Seems everyone is using the "Brunswick" background color for their Web site. > "KC-I" randomly switched between Tuscan and Brunswick. Anyone know or have a > record of the HTML code for the Tuscan that seemed to work so well? > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- Here is a portion of the HTML from your diesel numerical roster, which used the tuscan: Hope this helps. I downloaded several of the diesel roster pages from K/C. If you could use them, I'd be happy to send them. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:33:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 609 I noticed PRR will not be among the first release of roadnames for the new HO Life-Like Proto 2000 PA/PB-1's. Sigh. I guess they figure we'll be using all our money to get the E7's and GP9's. Oh well. Wait wait wait.... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:51:24 -0400 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Web Page Content-Length: 679 I had not known of the PRRT&HS until I saw the WEB. I used the form to join. I think the problem is a lack of WEB knowledge or interest by those who make the decisions. Web sites take WORK to stay up to date. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:35:58 -0400 (EDT) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Content-Length: 457 this did not come back to me from the list - if a duplication my apologies RR ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:35:08 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Content-Length: 1027 >I dunno - seems to me that the 'good ol' boys' clique crap is killing a >lot of good organizations and driving a lot of interested people away. > >Mike Calo Seriously, Mike, I have seen far worse: in a 12" gauge live steam club I used to belong to, that "good ol' boys clique crap" was endangering human lives! If you ever want to see a sample of what PRR branch line track must have been in the darkest days just before the bankruptcy, just give me a hollar. I can also give you some hair raising stories about major pileups. Be thankful the PRRH&TS web site "boys" are only pushing electrons. Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:35:13 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: web demo? Content-Length: 657 And Jerry writes: >IMHO, the PRRTHS convention needs an Internet demo...not just of "our" >web sites, but of the whole concept. Actually, that's Not A Bad Idea! All it would take is someone to bring a not too sophisticated computer and modem. Any thoughts here? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: MAJOR Internet problem today Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 18:11:32 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1010 Do not adjust your set... There was a MAJOR Internet addressing problem today, that will wreak havoc on all aspects of Internet usage for days to come. It has to do with a corrupted DNS at the Internic. You can read about it at: http://www2.pageplop.com/pageplop/serverstatus.html The listserv has indeed sent out all messages that it received. However, nothing new seems to be coming in. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RailFest Schedule - Schedule - Print if Attending Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 18:34:40 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 3111 All those who RSVP'd for RailFest, please print and bring this; this is our schedule. I posted to the list as well, in case anyone drops in last minute. You won't be able to sit with us on the train, but we'll try to squeeze you in for dinner. ------------------------------------------------------- RESERVATIONS: Mike Bezilla (1 in party; 0 train; 1 dinner) Jerry Britton (5 in party; 1 train; 5 dinner) Carl Haslett (6 in party; 6 train; 6 dinner) Harold McGee (1 in party; 1 train; 1 dinner) Harry Fitch (2 in party; 2 train; 2 dinner) Drew McGhee (1 in party; 0 train; 1 dinner) Donald Goebel (5 in party; 3 train; 5 dinner) Tom Higginbotham (2 in party; 0 train; 0 dinner) Scott Johnson (via Drew McGhee) (1 in party; 0 train; 1 dinner) ------------------------------------------------------- SCHEDULE: 9:00 - 9:15 a.m. (may be there earlier) Meet near entrance to Railroaders Museum. Will pass out name tags. Use optional; will help attach faces with e-mail addresses. (I'll be the one with the Pennsy hat!) Tour Railroaders Museum - Premier of new movie, first floor of Master Mechanics Building will have exhibits not yet open to public, third floor will have numerous club layouts. Tour Southern Alleghenies Museum of Art - Includes display of William Rau collection of 1890s photos of PRR. Noon Lunch. Bill Lewis (president, Northern Central chapter, PRRTHS, who will be in my party) suggests the McDonalds within walking distance so you can sit and watch the mainline action. 1:00 Meet for 1:30 excursion. We have special arrangements with the museum for this: > Please have your group meet on the east end of the Amtran (city bus authority) > busway platform. The bussway platform is parallel to 10th avenue3 and just > across 13th street from the Amtrak station. > We will have one of our hosts meet you and escort your group to the train >from there. Please advise your members to meet on the bussay platform as we >will not be moving them through the station but will be taking them directly >from the bussway platform to the train. 1:30 - 2:45 p.m. Rail excursion up the mountain, around The Curve, thru the tunnels, to Gillitzin and back. 3:00 p.m. Tour Conrail shops. 6:00 p.m. Dinner at Hoss's. Drew McGhee has contacted them and they know we are coming as a group. It wil be the Altoona Hoss's on Pleasant Valley Blvd. Directions will be available. Looking forward to meeting many of you. See you then! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 18:50:14 EDT Content-Length: 751 > I think this is the ticket. > > Have the main page link to the six or so largest PRR sites of MEMBERS OF > THE SOCIETY and mention PRR-Talk. > > Have a sub-page that is a master index of the sub-pages of those and > other sites. Good. Let's propose this. And maybe a pittance of material on the PRRTHS site, like those silly :-) recipes. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:00:34 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 1025 In a message dated 97-09-25 14:05:33 EDT, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: >I believe that Elbert H. Gary should be Elbridge H. Gerry (a signer of the >U.S. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE You're correct in ID'ing Elbridge Gerry, but these cars were named for industrialists and others whose businesses/activities generated great revenue for the PRR (I'm not sure how George Rogers Clark fits into this category....maybe he opened up some Lines West territory before heading West) Anyway, Elbert H. Gary had a great deal to do with establishing the steel mills in what is now Gary, Indiana and the surrounding area. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 1025 In a message dated 97-09-25 14:05:33 EDT, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: >I believe that Elbert H. Gary should be Elbridge H. Gerry (a signer of the >U.S. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE You're correct in ID'ing Elbridge Gerry, but these cars were named for industrialists and others whose businesses/activities generated great revenue for the PRR (I'm not sure how George Rogers Clark fits into this category....maybe he opened up some Lines West territory before heading West) Anyway, Elbert H. Gary had a great deal to do with establishing the steel mills in what is now Gary, Indiana and the surrounding area. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: web demo? Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:20:49 -0400 Content-Length: 1436 Using a PC projector would make it viewable for a larger audience. I use them from time to time for work. (rent is steep when I get them though) Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: web demo? > Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 5:35 PM > > And Jerry writes: > > >IMHO, the PRRTHS convention needs an Internet demo...not just of "our" > >web sites, but of the whole concept. > > Actually, that's Not A Bad Idea! All it would take is someone to bring a > not too sophisticated computer and modem. Any thoughts here? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:13:30 -0500 From: ajc5150@net66.com Subject: Steam Loco Pilot Markings Content-Length: 828 I just received my Autumn Keystone, and the centerspread reminded me of a question I've been wanting to ask this group. What is the meaning of the letters stenciled on the pilot of a steam loco? There is a set on the engineer's side, and another on the fireman's side. My wild guess is that one of the sets of letters signifies which roundhouse, or engine terminal, the engine is based out of. Anybody know the real answer? Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: I liked the recipes! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:19:40 -0400 Content-Length: 1645 Hey, I liked the recipes! This provides great insight on how the PRR planned to serve the paycheck providers, the customers. There once was a very flourishing passenger trade on the PRR. All was not doom and gloom as in later years. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Mark D Bej > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 6:50 PM > > > I think this is the ticket. > > > > Have the main page link to the six or so largest PRR sites of MEMBERS OF > > THE SOCIETY and mention PRR-Talk. > > > > Have a sub-page that is a master index of the sub-pages of those and > > other sites. > > > Good. Let's propose this. And maybe a pittance of material on the PRRTHS > site, like those silly :-) recipes. > > > -- > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 21:25:33 -0500 From: ajc5150@net66.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 845 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > I noticed PRR will not be among the first release of roadnames for the new HO > Life-Like Proto 2000 PA/PB-1's. Sigh. I guess they figure we'll be using all > our money to get the E7's and GP9's. Oh well. Wait wait wait.... > > -D > While we're waiting for the PA/PB-1's, I wish they'd re-release the 5 stripe E8's. While they're at it I wish they'd offer the E7's and E8's in DGLE, 5 stripe of course. Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:08:55 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: On the PRRT&HS web site Content-Length: 980 Hullo all, I have been watching all this talk about the wb page. Just something I had found out. Around the end of August I sent an email to the page conductor as I believe it is put. He replied to me the next day on my email and had said an update was in the works for the page. At that time it was due to be updated around 15 September (or was it October). It was a work in progress was what he said. FYI! I really like this email group and have gotten alot of great info. Thanks to one and all!!! Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future (Standing in the Gap) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 00:13:45 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Web Page Content-Length: 710 Larry P. Morgan wrote: > > I had not known of the PRRT&HS until I saw the WEB. > Same here. The worst part is, they were off to such a great start. Pictures, technical info, first-hand accounts, tomato cars :-) I even think the recipes were a good idea. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 00:35:29 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: NS & the keystone Content-Length: 788 There has been much speculating/hoping that Norfolk Southern would acknowledge the Pennsy when repainting the Conrail locomotives. I was told Wed. that the repainting has begun, and the NS locomotives will indeed have a keystone (CSX will have some sort of NYC logo). Can anyone verify this? I checked the NS web site and didn't find anything. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 01:22:17 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) Content-Length: 923 Mark D Bej wrote: > Good. Let's propose this. And maybe a pittance of material on the PRRTHS > site, like those silly :-) recipes. > Now now, As a chef I must protest. I've been feeding my clams cornmeal for years... 8=(;> 4 out of 5 chefs agree... a Pennsy clam is a happy clam! -Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 22:14:41 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Trip Tips Content-Length: 659 Aloha, It finally set. I am Flying to LA Oct. 20, and taking the train to British Vancouver. I will Layover in Seattle from approximately 8:00 pm until 8:00 am. Any Suggestion on what to look for or views. Thanks, Eric ps: I know it's not the PRR but it is a train. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 09:31:42 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) Content-Length: 974 Chris Brandt wrote: > As a chef I must protest. I've been feeding my clams cornmeal for > years... 8=(;> > > 4 out of 5 chefs agree... a Pennsy clam is a happy clam! > Off subject except as a response, but perhaps a non-political respite: Cape Codders around here do it, too -- but I think for a clam to ingest any cornmeal in order to replace any resident sand (the reason for doing it), you would have to BURY the clams in corn meal, using salt (sea) water. Fresh water kills them quickly. BTW, steamers go in neck up, quahogs/littlenecks live hinge up. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Oct 1997 08:36:14 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? -Reply Content-Length: 581 Amen Andy! >>> ajc5150@net66.com (Andy C.) 10/02/97 06:26am wrote >>> ........... While they're at it I wish they'd offer the E7's and E8's in DGLE, 5 stripe of course. Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:43:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) Content-Length: 1366 On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Mark D Bej wrote: > I said: > > > >You and I and whoever else would mirror the One And Only Index on our > > >sites, as our only index, or in parallel with our own custom indices. > > >Thus, from one location, PRR info-seekers would find all relevant PRR > > >items. > > > Okay, returning to the mirrors of a master index concept. Problem here is > > that I do not want a "generic" index showing in place of my current > > default page (which, IMHO, is an attention grabber for new visitors). > > But you note I didn't say that the generic index would have to be your own > index. Only that the generic index would be mirrored on our sites. I thought I suggested that 6 months ago and everyone hated the idea. Translates to, I'm in. Bell Atlantic is outside my house right now installing the high speed network (and making all sorts of racket in the process) so I should have more machine resources available networked RSN... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:17:04 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Pennsy Steam Modelers Content-Length: 2281 Howdy Pennsy Modelers, OH HAPPY DAY!!!!!! Remember a discussion a few weeks ago about sound? Well...I called ThrottleUp! the company that sells DCC sound decoders (called Digital Sound Decoders or DSDs) yesterday to enquire about a rumor I had heard vis a vis K4 sounds, and the answer? The DSD with PRR K4 sound will be available in 2 WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some other background on these decoders: 1) They are available in 1 amp (HO) and 0.5 amp (N) sizes. 2) The are fully function 128 step decoders 3) They provide SIMULTANEOUS sound effects (eg the bell and whistle can both sound at the same time) 4) They provide chuff (now mechanically synchronized), airpumps, coupler sounds bell, whistle, dynamo, blowdown, "fireman fred" shoveling coal, speed sensative braking sounds, etc etc... 5) They provide a variety of lighting effects including forward, reverse, firebox flicker (synchronized with Fred!), and mars light 6) They BARELY fit in the tender of my brass K4. 7) They ain't cheap ($178.00 each the last time I looked) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: I liked the recipes! (fwd) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 10:23:10 EDT Content-Length: 802 Harry and other responders, > Hey, > I liked the recipes! Nothing like a totally inappropriate comment to get peoples' dander up and start a round of posts! But seriously, to my own credit, I _did_ put a :-) after the word "silly" in the original post: > > Good. Let's propose this. And maybe a pittance of material on the > PRRTHS site, like those silly :-) recipes. Levity, levity. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Oct 1997 09:49:37 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: ThrottleUP! (was Pennsy Steam Modelers) Content-Length: 4230 >>> smithbf@mail.auburn.edu (Bruce Smith) 10/02/97 08:42am wrote>>> >The DSD with PRR K4 sound will be available in 2 WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Some other background on these decoders: >1) They are available in 1 amp (HO) and 0.5 amp (N) sizes. >2) The are fully function 128 step decoders >3) They provide SIMULTANEOUS sound effects (eg the bell and whistle can both sound at the same time) >4) They provide chuff (now mechanically synchronized), airpumps, coupler sounds bell, whistle, dynamo, blowdown, "fireman fred" shoveling coal, speed sensative braking sounds, etc etc... >5) They provide a variety of lighting effects including forward, reverse, firebox flicker (synchronized with Fred!), and mars light >6) They BARELY fit in the tender of my brass K4. >7) They ain't cheap ($178.00 each the last time I looked) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ThrottleUP! decoders are GREAT, but .............. I have installed a couple for other folks and have seen several more in action. The effects are fantastic. Just a couple of things that you should be aware of: 1 - some folks have burned out the 1 amp decoders even with modern can motors (the 1 amp rating is liberal and does not tolerate much over that). ThrottleUp! has responded by announcing a 1.5 amp decoder which is only slightly physically larger than the 1 amp. 2 - sound levels on some sounds are rather low and not in proportion to reality ("fireman Fred" shoveling coal is louder than whistle). Some of this may be due to type of speaker and speaker enclosure causing some frequencies to reproduce better than others. As Bruce says, these things are BIG! In addition to the large decoder you also have to find room to mount a speaker, the larger the better. One of the best installations I saw was to put the decoder and speaker in a 50' box car. The box car is then coupled just behind the locomotive and the ThrottleUp! decoder in the box car is MU'ed to another decoder in the locomotive which controls the loco speed/direction. Sounds come from the box car. Advantages are lots of room for decoder, speaker, and a good acoustic enclosure in the box car resulting in better sound. Also, box car can run behind different locomotives (of the same type) reducing number of expensive sound decoders. Disadvantages are you always have to run the box car immediately behind the locomotive in any train in which you want sound and you have to have another decoder in the locomotive, although with available discounts this amounts to only about $25. 3 - there are programming problems. ThrottleUp! (and other decoders with sophisticated additional functionality) require more voltage "on the track" to program than some DCC command station/boosters produce. 4 - the $ 178.00 is MSRP, you can do better. One source is TrainSource Texas in Houston. Their price is $ 160.20 (10% discount). If you do more than $ 500 a year business with them they cut another 10% off everything over $ 500 so price could drop to $ 144.18. Phone number is (713) 662-0809 (they have an 800 number but I don't remember it). Shipping is $ 5 and if out of state no sales tax. In conclusion, I think sound decoders are the wave of the future and that ThrottleUp! will be in the forefront. What they have on the market today outshines anything else available, but other manufacturers are agressively working on bringing sound decoders to market. Mass production and competition will reduce the physical package and lower the price over time. For the time being I will wait until some of the kinks are worked out, but then I don't buy the initial model of any hardware item nor version 1.0 of any software product either. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: NS & the keystone (fwd) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:11:12 EDT Content-Length: 1022 > There has been much speculating/hoping that Norfolk Southern would > acknowledge the Pennsy when repainting the Conrail locomotives. I was > told Wed. that the repainting has begun, and the NS locomotives will > indeed have a keystone (CSX will have some sort of NYC logo). Can anyone > verify this? I checked the NS web site and didn't find anything. Don't bet on it. NS would use the paint called "Pre-Rusted Steel Coating" if they could do it and it would be practical. (Actually, Conrail already does: they use it on what I have named "pre-rusted sheds", their signal equipment sheds.) -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:40:17 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 515 BUt Stewart does like us. The first C628 will be PRR. May be if we push Steve enough the first VO1000 will be PRR also. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:53:53 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Steam Loco Pilot Markings Content-Length: 1705 ajc5150@net66.com wrote: > > I just received my Autumn Keystone, and the centerspread reminded me of > a question I've been wanting to ask this group. > > What is the meaning of the letters stenciled on the pilot of a steam > loco? There is a set on the engineer's side, and another on the > fireman's side. > > My wild guess is that one of the sets of letters signifies which > roundhouse, or engine terminal, the engine is based out of. > > Anybody know the real answer? > "The Keystone" for March, 1972, and June, 1973, gives the following information, compiled by Messrs. Prophet, Adams, and Flattley: The practice began in 1920, with region and Grand Division assignments on the Engineman's side of the pilot beam front, and was later expanded to show enginehouse assignment on the fireman's side end of the pilot beam. It became more elaborate as time went on and was modified over time as well. The articles purport to give a complete listing of all markings and are too large to list here. Withe reference to the recent centerspread, "WS" on the right end of the pilot indicated Southwestern Region, part of the Western Region. "COL" on the left indicated assignment to the Spruce St., Columbus, Ohio, enginehouse, passenger locomotives, after the mid - 1930's. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:54:22 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: I liked the recipes! (fwd) Content-Length: 798 At the risk of starting a lenghty dialogue. Have you tried any of those recipes? Some of therm are pretty good. You just need to set the stage. Start a coal fire in your grill. Build-up plenty of smoke. Then serve yourself RR food. It works better after dark. Your neighbors don't report you for violating smoke ordinances. However, there is always the psooibility that the EPA will get you. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:03:09 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: NS & the keystone (fwd) Content-Length: 634 One of many rumors has the NS placing the throughbred in a keystone similar to the interlaced PRR. If the Keystone is simply a white outline this could be done keeping with NS spartan painting philosophy. Again this is a backroom rumor. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:06:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 639 On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > BUt Stewart does like us. The first C628 will be PRR. > > May be if we push Steve enough the first VO1000 will be PRR also. They're apparently doing more than one phase of the VO1000, as well... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 17:22:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: NS & the keystone (fwd) Content-Length: 763 Mark D Bej wrote: > > NS would use the paint called "Pre-Rusted Steel Coating" if they could do > it and it would be practical. (Actually, Conrail already does: they use > it on what I have named "pre-rusted sheds", their signal equipment sheds.) > That would be Floquil No. PRSC25, available in spray cans and bottles, as well as bulk 5-gallon pails. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:38:39 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: MARC historical efforts Content-Length: 972 Enroute from Baltimore airport back to Philly last Monday, I encountered MARC coach 140, which is an ex-PRR 21-roomette sleeper. I can remember when these cars were still sleepers, and when the PRR converted them to coaches. They still have the "non-coach" window arrangement, but the number of people who can figure out why is decreasing as time passes. To my great joy, I found a PRR keystone and the car's original name prominently displayed near the vesitbule door. (This car was the "Tyrone Inn"). I wonder how many, and which, 21-roomette cars MARC has? Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: NS & the keystone (fwd) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:42:12 -0400 Content-Length: 2126 When you look at the hoods and roofs of CR units in the Bay View yard in Baltimore, you will see that CR uses a very realistic rust all over them! I have never seen a more crusty bunch of CR locomotives than the ones I tend to see in this area. They must run them through a fertilizer or chemical plant once a day. My own opinion, no fact, I don't think that we will see any keystones on anything that NS owns, operates, upgrades or scraps! Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Mark D Bej > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: NS & the keystone (fwd) > Date: Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:11 AM > > > There has been much speculating/hoping that Norfolk Southern would > > acknowledge the Pennsy when repainting the Conrail locomotives. I was > > told Wed. that the repainting has begun, and the NS locomotives will > > indeed have a keystone (CSX will have some sort of NYC logo). Can anyone > > verify this? I checked the NS web site and didn't find anything. > > Don't bet on it. > > NS would use the paint called "Pre-Rusted Steel Coating" if they could do > it and it would be practical. (Actually, Conrail already does: they use > it on what I have named "pre-rusted sheds", their signal equipment sheds.) > > -- > Mark D. Bej > bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:09:38 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: NS & the keystone Content-Length: 1059 Jerry Shickler wrote: > > I was told Wed. that the repainting has begun, and the NS locomotives >will indeed have a keystone (CSX will have some sort of NYC logo). > After I posted this, I e-mailed the contact at the NS web site. Shortly after that, I remembered that the takeover hasn't yet been approved, & therefore they couldn't be doing any painting yet. NS's response to the e-mail confirmed this, and said that the takeover decision won't be made until next year. I can't wait to see what the rumors will be like then: "The locomotives will be DGLE PRR scheme, with a small horse on the nose." :-) -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Weather Forecast for Railfest Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 09:25:16 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 869 Just checked the NWS for a forecast for Saturday.. WEST VIRGINIA NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE PITTSBURGH PA 337 AM EDT FRI OCT 3 1997 ... .TONIGHT...PARTLY CLOUDY NORTH. FAIR SOUTH. LOW IN THE 50S. .SATURDAY...VARIABLE CLOUDINESS. HIGH IN THE 70S. Lookin' good! 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:58:56 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 908 In a message dated 97-10-03 07:36:23 EDT, ajc5150@net66.com writes: << While we're waiting for the PA/PB-1's, I wish they'd re-release the 5 stripe E8's. While they're at it I wish they'd offer the E7's and E8's in DGLE, 5 stripe of course. >> Andy: Life-like has been hounded to death to do the DGLE 5 stripe and they just refuse to do it. Even though they were given copies of the drift cards, they seem petrified of not matching the color correctly and being left holding the bag 'er locos. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: does Life-Like hate us? Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:39:11 -0500 Content-Length: 2207 This may be reason that, though they replied to me at Madison that DGLE E7 was "planned", they did not really look me in the eye. Re the color apprehension, I am new to PRR-talk. What has been reaction of SPF's to Stewart's F-unit DGLE attempt? I'm not a rivet counter, but it looked good enough to buy to me (before weathering). If SPF's in general liked it, what is Lifelike's problem duplicating it? Besides, how many thousand salmon pink P70 coaches did Spectrum sell in their first batches? As I indicated before on this talk-site, I'm not waiting. After I complete putting sound in my Bowser M1, the E7antennas and paint come next. BTW, the drop-in Helix humper can motor works like a dream in the Bowser. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ---------- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 03, 1997 8:58 AM To: ajc5150@net66.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? In a message dated 97-10-03 07:36:23 EDT, ajc5150@net66.com writes: << While we're waiting for the PA/PB-1's, I wish they'd re-release the 5 stripe E8's. While they're at it I wish they'd offer the E7's and E8's in DGLE, 5 stripe of course. >> Andy: Life-like has been hounded to death to do the DGLE 5 stripe and they just refuse to do it. Even though they were given copies of the drift cards, they seem petrified of not matching the color correctly and being left holding the bag 'er locos. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Notice about my mail!!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 11:25:12 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 990 My server locked up overnight and trashed my mail server database. Any mail to me after 6 p.m. Thursday probably did not reach me. (List mail posted thru 6:30 a.m. Friday should have been okay.) If anyone mailed me about RailFest after that time...assume that your mail was among the lost. Re-mail me ASAP if it is about this event!!!! Anyone else can re-mail be if deemed necessary. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Pennsy Steam Modelers Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:51:51 -0400 Content-Length: 3245 I read in one of the PRR books, that when some of the I1's were modernized they received K-4 whistles. Not having been around on this earth when they ran, is there a noticable difference between the chuff of a K-4 and an I1? Maybe those of you with the cd collection can let us know. Joe ---------- > From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Pennsy Steam Modelers > Date: Thursday, October 02, 1997 10:17 AM > > Howdy Pennsy Modelers, > > OH HAPPY DAY!!!!!! Remember a discussion a few weeks ago about sound? > Well...I called ThrottleUp! the company that sells DCC sound decoders > (called Digital Sound Decoders or DSDs) yesterday to enquire about a rumor > I had heard vis a vis K4 sounds, and the answer? > > The DSD with PRR K4 sound will be available in 2 WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Some other background on these decoders: > 1) They are available in 1 amp (HO) and 0.5 amp (N) sizes. > 2) The are fully function 128 step decoders > 3) They provide SIMULTANEOUS sound effects (eg the bell and whistle can > both sound at the same time) > 4) They provide chuff (now mechanically synchronized), airpumps, coupler > sounds bell, whistle, dynamo, blowdown, "fireman fred" shoveling coal, > speed sensative braking sounds, etc etc... > 5) They provide a variety of lighting effects including forward, reverse, > firebox flicker (synchronized with Fred!), and mars light > 6) They BARELY fit in the tender of my brass K4. > 7) They ain't cheap ($178.00 each the last time I looked) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and > Director, Nucleic Acid Services > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > **************************************************************************** **** > "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" > "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:57:43 -0400 From: Jim Hebner Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 609 Maybe everyone should be thankful they even made the unit. Maybe the PRRH&TS or some other official group could offer to work with Lifelike or even MRIA to test colors and that way assure market success with the PRR modeler. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 10:54:32 CST Subject: Bowser locos and Helix motoring Content-Length: 1235 Hi, all you Bowser owners, I recently saw a reference to being pleased with the Helix remotoring sets for Bowser engines. I've considered doing this but wondered what the advantages would be. Better operation? Lower noise levels? I'm puzzled here because I have a Penn-Line K4 and I1 unmodified and both are noticably quieter than my recently assembled H9 and M1a - this even after fooling around with the latter quite a bit. And what about putting in a NWSL gearbox? I basically like my Bowsers but would like them to urn quieter, but I'm not sure I want to start buying re-motoring sets if there is no noticable difference in overall operation. Your thoughts and experiences?? PRR Forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: NS & the keystone (fwd) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:58:35 EDT Content-Length: 905 > My own opinion, no fact, I don't think that we will see any > keystones on anything that NS owns, operates, upgrades > or scraps! Harry, Dick Ross (Cleveland) told me that, when N&W took over the Sandusky line graciously sold them by PRR (when PRR decided to merge with NYC), N&W went up and down the line sawing the top of the keystone off the whistle posts and painting a black stripe to complete the outline of the newly parallelogram-ed signs. And that was when they were still _friendly_. :-) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 13:04:22 -0400 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Life-Like & hate Content-Length: 526 Greetings, Maybe they would have better luck using "Brunswick Green" than DGLE. I'mmm Back Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 14:16:45 -0500 From: ajc5150@net66.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 1111 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Life-like has been hounded to death to do the DGLE 5 stripe and they just > refuse to do it. Even though they were given copies of the drift cards, they > seem petrified of not matching the color correctly and being left holding the > bag 'er locos. > > Rich Orr In rec.models.railroad, there is a thread regarding fixing the incorrect colors for the C&O E8's. Seems Life-Like didn't fear putting out incorrect colors on the C&O units. Or, have the C&O units not sold, and Life-Like doesn't wan't to repeat the experience? One sure way to make Life-Like come out with the DGLE E units is for about 20 of us to purchase undec ABBA sets and paint and decal them ourselves. Andy C. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:22:32 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy Steam Modelers Content-Length: 487 There is a very distinctive difference between a K4 and an I1 sounds -- whistle, exhaust, etc. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:03:09 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: NS and Keystones, a worst case scenario Content-Length: 652 With Cosmic Justice being what it is, NS may, indeed, decide to honor the two former members of Conrail by painting a horse silhouette in a Keystone- on a Jade Green carbody! I just wonder if anyone would have the nerve to model that! Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:46:03 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: NS & the keystone Content-Length: 731 In a message dated 97-10-02 23:20:21 EDT, geshick@velocity.net writes: > I remembered that the takeover hasn't yet been approved, & >therefore they couldn't be doing any painting yet. Don't bet on that! Remember the "sure-thing" SP/Santa Fe merger? I think there are still a few of those repainted units running around. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:47:32 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: NS & the keystone Content-Length: 731 In a message dated 97-10-02 23:20:21 EDT, geshick@velocity.net writes: > I remembered that the takeover hasn't yet been approved, & >therefore they couldn't be doing any painting yet. Don't bet on that! Remember the "sure-thing" SP/Santa Fe merger? I think there are still a few of those repainted units running around. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Date: Sat, 04 Oct 97 01:15:00 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 751 Hi, actually from talking with the Life-Like rep at various train shows, Life-Like (the P2K rep at train shows at least) does hate us (or at least just doesn't really care for PRR... Luckily for us PRR stuff sells pretty good :) Rob (ok, he never said he hated PRR - he just thinks that the PRR has a crappy paint scheme... close enought for me though....) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 08:17:54 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 641 Rob Schoenberg wrote: > > Luckily for us PRR stuff sells pretty good :) > Most manufacturers seem to be of the opinion that ANYTHING painted and lettered PRR, correct, prototype, or not, will sell more than enough to be worth doing. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 13:31:45 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 1423 Ron Dugas wrote: > If a manufacturer has to paint a loco that only Pennsy ran in dream > schemes to sell enough to make it a profitable venture and other > modelers are happy with them, do we not gain a prototype we might not > otherwise have? If they also have to use Pennsy schemes to make sales > of units Pennsy never owned profitable, do modelers of roads that did > run them not gain by this? Though most on this list would probably not > buy it, there are many, less exacting modelers, who would. Increased > variety does not hurt us and we are the ones who decide what runs on > our divisions. > Right, Ron; I was not really complaining, just commenting on this extended line of discussion. I have a set of five-stripe F-3 units (EF15) in tuscan. My understanding is that only the EMD FP-7 ran in that scheme. In the real world, I also have a lot of locos with no paint. So, I run the various items with "slightly" imperfect paint schemes. I like it better than brass color or black plastic. Steve Bartlett DPF ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 09:32:53 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 2346 Hi Stephen and All, Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > Most manufacturers seem to be of the opinion that ANYTHING painted > and lettered PRR, correct, prototype, or not, will sell more than > enough to be worth doing. Like the dome cars some manufacturers force us n-scalers to buy to get passenger trains? I can live with paint schemes that are representational and approximate, but what do we do with all the domes cars? I've also heard the opinion that manufacturers can sell anything painted for Sante Fe in quantities equal to or exceeding all other raods combined. On a more rational note, though, dream schemes are not intrinsically bad. Look at it the other way around. If a manufacturer has to paint a loco that only Pennsy ran in dream schemes to sell enough to make it a profitable venture and other modelers are happy with them, do we not gain a prototype we might not otherwise have? If they also have to use Pennsy schemes to make sales of units Pennsy never owned profitable, do modelers of roads that did run them not gain by this? Though most on this list would probably not buy it, there are many, less exacting modelers, who would. Increased variety does not hurt us and we are the ones who decide what runs on our divisions. A case in point: Many on this list have wished for an HO BP20 for the pax trains. Would it be more likely to be produced if the manufacturer was able to sell them to non-Pennsy modelers? I'd bet many non-Pennsy modelers would snap them up. And I, for one, would be happy to see Sante Fe, etc... Baldwin Centipedes if it meant I could get PRR ones. Please don't take me wrong; I appreciate the move towards more accuracy in production as much as the rest of you but if taken to extremes we will have to get used to the idea of never getting prototypes deemed un-profitable due to insufficient roads that ran them. My opinions, and open to debate. Thanks for reading, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:01:49 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 738 In a message dated 97-10-04 13:34:36 EDT, you write: << I have a set of five-stripe F-3 units (EF15) in tuscan. My understanding is that only the EMD FP-7 ran in that scheme. I thought FP7 only was in DGLE and not Tuscan? If there was a Tuscan FP7 prototype, why didn't Atlas release one in it? (I confess I'm a closet rivet-counter) Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:23:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 839 On Sat, 4 Oct 1997 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-10-04 13:34:36 EDT, you write: > > << I have a set of five-stripe F-3 units > (EF15) in tuscan. My understanding is that only the EMD FP-7 ran in > that scheme. > > I thought FP7 only was in DGLE and not Tuscan? If there was a Tuscan FP7 > prototype, why didn't Atlas release one in it? > (I confess I'm a closet rivet-counter) I think they did; I've seen one. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:55:47 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: PRR equipment and Life-Like Content-Length: 1872 Hello folks... Hmmmm after thinking about this a while here is my view.... If a manufacturer has to make a non pennsy model and paint it in pennsy colors so be it...you don't have to by it..but in a way it might help that model manufacturer...also if they make a loco or car the pennsy did run and paint it in another railroad color you can always repaint it more to your liking...some of us already do this...sometimes we get it cheaper this way... Both Life-Like and the model railroad industry have come a long way and both have made strides to both put out a better product and to make sure one is so produced. If you compare the models Life Like made 15 years ago to today you will see this... Probably for various production and economic reasons sometimes they don't make something the way you would like... So in closing i think we should be happy for what we have and hope in the future they keep a open mind on future products...If some of them hadn't had a mind set like this then company's like Steward would'nt have gone to the trouble of there F-3 variations,Kadee would'nt have made so many versions of there couplers and Life -Like would still be making cars and locos from old dies like they did years ago... H.Mummert P.S. Ok for the record...i wish Bowser would make a B-6sb and a H-6sb... and a P-5 electric....:) i can dream can't i?....LOL ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 17:00:42 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: oops... Content-Length: 552 Oops...gotta watch my fingers..."Steward" should have been "Stewart"... i'm doing this to avoid a avalanche of e-mail....LOL H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 17:45:38 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 1192 LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > I thought FP7 only was in DGLE and not Tuscan? If there was a Tuscan FP7 > prototype, why didn't Atlas release one in it? > (I confess I'm a closet rivet-counter) > Tom and anyone else interested, A quick look into Ball's _The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s - 1950s_ shows tuscan FP-7 9833, on page 106. The crosswise tank under the body, just in front of the fuel tank and battery box is an accurate identifier, even if you can' see the extra body length from this angle. This does not prove none wore DGLE; Ball states on page 107 that only the first two ABA sets were tuscan. My point was that no other model EMD F unit was painted tuscan with the five stripes, but I still run my F-3's (and a couple of Weaver Alco FA's). The price was right. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 22:45:30 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: EFP15's Content-Length: 632 Hi All, Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > ...Ball states on page 107 that only the first two ABA sets were > tuscan. Pennsy Power II corroborates this on page 319 and states the unit #'s as: 9832A, 9832B, 9833A and 9834A, 9834B, 9835A. Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: Re: Life Like hates use Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 09:49:35 -0400 Content-Length: 1287 >To PRR Talk Members > From ncampbell@iname.com >Following the thread about Life Like hating Pennsy Modelers >First They seem to resist Painting E units in DGLE , Not so ,haven't you seen the SD 7s &9s . >Second- Everyone praises the Tuscan red used on the E 8's , My problems with this color is that it doesn't match the paint that I've used and I've used most of them.(I now use Poly Scale colors ) When I called Life Like they didn't have any paint info and blamed it on the Chinese . >Also the buff color seems to be too yellow , thats if you can trust the drift cards. >Lastly if they Hated use we would have seen Alco FA4s EMD E6s GP 10s (in NYC only)and a chopped nose SD9 .Not the great units now being produced by LL. My point is no one can EVER get PRR colors right for most off us .So may I suggest painting yourself or live with whats offered . Travel By Rail Neil ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:17:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 724 In a message dated 97-10-04 16:05:12 EDT, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << I thought FP7 only was in DGLE and not Tuscan? If there was a Tuscan FP7 prototype, why didn't Atlas release one in it? (I confess I'm a closet rivet-counter) >> The first two A-B-A sets of PRR FP7 were in Tuscan 5 stripe all others were in DGLE. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:48:23 -0400 (EDT) From: RLMower@aol.com Subject: Web Page Content-Length: 609 F/Y/I I have just added a page of Conrail (ex PRR) pictures to my web site at http://members.aol.com/RLMower/home.html If you are interested in seeing old CR engines with the Pennsy paint showing thru take a look Randy ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Railroad Museum of PA Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 21:59:02 -0400 Content-Length: 904 Following the many posts about colors on cars, locomotives and such on the PRR, does anyone know anything in light of the following questions? Does anyone know what paint colors that the Railroad Museum of PA uses on their collection of PRR steam locomotives? i.e. what is there interpretation of DLGE? What do they paint the handrails, grabs and other details? How is a paint color determined by the museum for a piece of rolling stock? Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: does Life-Like hate us? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:31:29 -0400 Content-Length: 1335 I saw a Pennsy FP7 at Enola in the 1950's. It was Tuscan Red with five stripes in Dulux Gold (buff). I think all the FP7s were in that scheme initially, until they were bumped from the declining passenger schedules, at which time they may have been given the DGLE treatment. . OBTW, I get a better looking (to me) FP7 by splicing two Athearn F7 shells together and using a GP-38-2 underframe. With those wonderful flush fitting scale windshield conversion kits for the Athearn F7A, a scratchbuilt Pennsy style pilot (from styrene), as my freind once said "you got it, ain't it". Andrew Harmantas, Artist, Illustrator, Lecturer, World traveler, and Bum...and SPF. i have a set of five-stripe F-3 units > (EF15) in tuscan. My understanding is that only the EMD FP-7 ran in > that scheme. > > I thought FP7 only was in DGLE and not Tuscan? If there was a Tuscan > FP7 > prototype, why didn't Atlas release one in it? > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:06:59 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 1259 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > > I saw a Pennsy FP7 at Enola in the 1950's. It was Tuscan Red with five > stripes in Dulux Gold (buff). I think all the FP7s were in that scheme > initially, until they were bumped from the declining passenger > schedules, at which time they may have been given the DGLE treatment. Stephen Bartlett wrote: > I have a set of five-stripe F-3 units (EF15) in tuscan. My > understanding is that only the EMD FP-7 ran in that scheme. ----------------------------------------- I think we're missing my point: The PRR EMD FP-7s were in tuscan with five gold (buff?) stripes and in DGLE, but _any other_ EMD F-unit will be incorrectly painted if in tuscan with five stripes. I was making the statement that I run an incorrectly painted set of F-3s. Whether I was bragging or complaining, I'm not saying. :-) Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 06 Oct 97 10:36:10 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: FAQ's Content-Length: 3309 Being a newbie who just subscribed to this list, I have a few dumb newbie questions. Forgive me if this stuff has been brought up over and over and over again... 1. Is there an FAQ sheet for terminology and abbreviations used on this list? I.E.: DGLE = Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (this took me a couple of e-mails before I figured out the code). I understand the need to use DGLE -- a useful abbreviation for a mouthful of words. Do you use others, such as FCC for the oxide red Freight Car Color (was there a "Passenger Car Color"? I don't remember seeing it on diagrams, but maybe I just wasn't looking for it)? JET for J. Edgar Thomson? BSSS for Broad Street Suburban Station? PLS for position light signal? Someone mentioned how its difficult to obtain models with accurately-shaded paint, whether locos or cars -- my gripe is that most locomotives that are supposed to be painted in DGLE are way too green. Athearn seems to have been the only one to get the subtlety right -- the greenish cast is only discernable when placed next to a locomotive painted 'solid' black. Locomotive/passenger-car tuscan red also seems to have changed over the years, that applied to heavyweight equipment seems to have been much more toward the yellow in hue than that applied to later (single stripe, large "PENNSYLVANIA") locomotives and streamlined passenger equipment, though my remembrance may be "shaded" by years of accumulated grime. This seems to have happened on other railroads other than the PRR -- apparently DuPont or whoever sold them their locomotive and car paint changed the minerals used for coloration and binding over the years, for the 'same' specified color. 2. A lot of the best Pennsy information I have are official PRR diagrams for trackage, painting and general plans and drawings that Robert Reid reprinted in PC Railroader and Rails Northeast. I have seen ads for another magazine he supposedly published called Pennsy Journal, but I have never seen a copy. Whatever happened to those publications, and whatever happened to all the material he apparently rescued from the Pittsburgh Division HQ? Anyone know of a dealer of back issues for the mags mentioned above? 3. Does anyone know where I might find a complete diagram of the facilities at Derry, PA, circa 1950-55? Even a source of good pictures that would show trackage layouts? The few pictures I have seen of this area were of poor quality, and taken on a hazy (or smoggy) day. Is there anything left at Derry, from which to ascertain the way it looked in the Walter Franklin era? Derry seems to be one of the few yards on the Pennsy main line that wasn't so colossal as to be unmodelable without taking up the entire basement... 4. Is there an archive for this e-mail discourse? The Layout Design SIG has a real peach of one as a web site, that can sort the messages by date or by thread... ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 11:00:49 -0400 Content-Length: 1337 My two cent worth on P2K and the PRR. P2k, to their credit does not seem to be willing to paint their models for any just any road. They are particular about the correct, or near correct prototype. Notice, for example, the lengths they have gone through to customize their engines for the particular road for which it is painted; and how their box cars have instructions for tailoring the side sill depending on which road you are modelling. PRR freight cars tended to be unique to the PRR and that, I presume, is why we have never seen a PRR box car, or a Mather stock lettered lettered as a K8 ! The problem with the Green E7 is the windows. The PRR ran the gold leaf striping right across the porthole windows. How many of us SPFs have done that?? I suspect the P2K has not yet licked that problem, (and may never) and not wanting to produce an incorrect paint schem, has declined to do green. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Pennsy Steam Modelers Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:18:06 -0500 Content-Length: 1235 Is Soundtraxx actually duplicating different exhaust sounds or is whistle the only difference between models; i.e., I was under the impression the "chuff" sound was generic for standard steam locos. ---------- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 03, 1997 3:22 PM To: jwg0@netreach.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Pennsy Steam Modelers There is a very distinctive difference between a K4 and an I1 sounds -- whistle, exhaust, etc. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Steam Loco Pilot Markings From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 11:20:35 -0400 Content-Length: 1544 That is the real answer. I believe the firemans side has the code for the engine termnal while the engineer's side has the region or division to which the loco is assigned. Does anyone know when these markings stoipped being used. They no longer appear on most 50s fotos. regards Andy Miller >I just received my Autumn Keystone, and the centerspread reminded me of >a question I've been wanting to ask this group. > >What is the meaning of the letters stenciled on the pilot of a steam >loco? There is a set on the engineer's side, and another on the >fireman's side. > >My wild guess is that one of the sets of letters signifies which >roundhouse, or engine terminal, the engine is based out of. > >Anybody know the real answer? > >Andy C. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: FAQ's Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 11:23:57 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2537 On 10/6/97 10:36 AM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: >Being a newbie who just subscribed to this list, I have a few dumb newbie >questions. Forgive me if this stuff has been brought up over and over and >over again... Welcome! > >1. Is there an FAQ sheet for terminology and abbreviations used on this >list? I.E.: > There is a FAQ page on "KC" ("Keystone Crossings"...http://prr.dsop.com) which is the server of this list. At present there is only a FAQ on the FoM (Fleet of Modernism). I already have an acronym FAQ under construction. Look for it soon. > >2. A lot of the best Pennsy information I have are official PRR diagrams >for trackage, painting and general plans and drawings that Robert Reid >reprinted in PC Railroader and Rails Northeast. I have seen ads for another >magazine he supposedly published called Pennsy Journal, but I have never >seen a copy. Whatever happened to those publications, and whatever happened >to all the material he apparently rescued from the Pittsburgh Division HQ? >Anyone know of a dealer of back issues for the mags mentioned above? There's a guy in the Philly Chapter of the PRRT&HS that bought all the reprint rights and excess copies. Yes, he does sell them. However, he absolutely refuses to allow any electronic re-publishing of the material via the Internet. I can understand his fiscal position on this, but it really hurts those of us who have the capability to readily share this invaluable information. > >4. Is there an archive for this e-mail discourse? The Layout Design SIG >has a real peach of one as a web site, that can sort the messages by date >or by thread... There was a search engine on "KC", but I finally determined that it was the cause of regular crashes on the server. I have been saving digests on a daily basis and will be building a Web front end to access these posts...but it is not a priority at present. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Thanks...RailFest Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 11:29:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1064 Thanks to all PRR-Talkers who participated in our first (annual?) RailFest get-together. The museum was very cooperative with our group...even handed out flyers for "KC / PRR-Talk". They also seated us together in the ex-New Castle Inn for the excursion. Thanks also to Drew McGhee for making arrangements with Hoss's to seat us in their meeting room which had some vintage PRR photos on the walls. I'll have my photos and guided tour online Wednesday evening. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 11:35:34 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: FAQ's Content-Length: 1700 Doug Drew wrote: " A lot of the best Pennsy information I have are official PRR diagrams for trackage, painting and general plans and drawings that Robert Reid reprinted in PC Railroader and Rails Northeast. I have seen ads for another magazine he supposedly published called Pennsy Journal, but I have never seen a copy. Whatever happened to those publications, and whatever happened to all the material he apparently rescued from the Pittsburgh Division HQ? Anyone know of a dealer of back issues for the mags mentioned above?" ------------------------------------ Doug, Reid published four issues of "Pennsy Journal," on various PRR subjects. I think when they were done it was about the time RNE ceased publication. I have heard that both he and his wife had serious, debilitating, health problems that prevented him from continuing, but I have never heard any explanation based on specific knowledge. My four copies are at the bottom of a tall pile of mags; I should have some free time soon. I'll either scan out or copy the Tables of Contents for you. They included various articles of the same type as the regular RNE articles on the PRR. I have never seen used copies. Finding them would be just one of those serendipitous things that occasionally happens. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Ried Pubs (was Re: FAQ's) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 12:34:13 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1765 On 10/6/97 11:35 AM, Stephen Bartlett (sbartlet@capecod.net) wrote: >Reid published four issues of "Pennsy Journal," on various PRR subjects. >I think when they were done it was about the time RNE ceased >publication. I have heard that both he and his wife had serious, >debilitating, health problems that prevented him from continuing, but I >have never heard any explanation based on specific knowledge. > >My four copies are at the bottom of a tall pile of mags; I should have >some free time soon. I'll either scan out or copy the Tables of >Contents for you. They included various articles of the same type as >the regular RNE articles on the PRR. I have never seen used copies. >Finding them would be just one of those serendipitous things that >occasionally happens. At RailFest I was with Bill Lewis, Neil Campbell, and others. We discussed the Reid publications. I am sure Neil said there were 16 issues...four years published quarterly...and that he had all 16. As for "the end", I had heard that his home got flooded out and that he opted not to "start over". The vendor has extra copies of the mags, not plates or source material. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 13:29:19 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1681 I have a B unit painted up in DGLE w/ the stripes going over the windows. Only slight problem is that the dullcoat over the decals clouds the windows a bit. It's not terrible but the windows look very dirty! Next time I think I'll try spraying gloss coat over the windows and dull coat over the rest of the engine... Rob --------- My two cent worth on P2K and the PRR. P2k, to their credit does not seem to be willing to paint their models for any just any road. They are particular about the correct, or near correct prototype. Notice, for example, the lengths they have gone through to customize their engines for the particular road for which it is painted; and how their box cars have instructions for tailoring the side sill depending on which road you are modelling. PRR freight cars tended to be unique to the PRR and that, I presume, is why we have never seen a PRR box car, or a Mather stock lettered lettered as a K8 ! The problem with the Green E7 is the windows. The PRR ran the gold leaf striping right across the porthole windows. How many of us SPFs have done that?? I suspect the P2K has not yet licked that problem, (and may never) and not wanting to produce an incorrect paint schem, has declined to do green. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:32:03 EST5EDT Subject: FAQ's Rails Northeast, etc. Content-Length: 2713 Response to the 2 messages below - Rails Northeast supposedly sold everything left to Charlie Horton in Philadelphia. I see Charlie at various train shows. Charlie told me he had all the rights and possibly even the plates that were used to print the magazine. (I sent an Aerotrain photo to Bob Reid prior to the end of the magazine and was never able to retrieve it. I did buy some items from him when he was going out of business. ) That magazine was filled with facts and lots of information and is an excellent resource for Pennsy info, along with the other lines around the Northeast. Bill Nixon Doug Drew wrote: " A lot of the best Pennsy information I have are official PRR diagrams for trackage, painting and general plans and drawings that Robert Reid reprinted in PC Railroader and Rails Northeast. I have seen ads for another magazine he supposedly published called Pennsy Journal, but I have never seen a copy. Whatever happened to those publications, and whatever happened to all the material he apparently rescued from the Pittsburgh Division HQ? Anyone know of a dealer of back issues for the mags mentioned above?" ------------------------------------ Steve Bartlett wrote: Reid published four issues of "Pennsy Journal," on various PRR subjects. I think when they were done it was about the time RNE ceased publication. I have heard that both he and his wife had serious, debilitating, health problems that prevented him from continuing, but I have never heard any explanation based on specific knowledge. My four copies are at the bottom of a tall pile of mags; I should have some free time soon. I'll either scan out or copy the Tables of Contents for you. They included various articles of the same type as the regular RNE articles on the PRR. I have never seen used copies. Finding them would be just one of those serendipitous things that occasionally happens. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 14:22:34 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2344 They've done other engines in DGLE w/ varying shades.. gold leaf too (on the FA's).... FA, SD7, SD9, SW1200 and soon the GP9's... I don't think that paint shade is the real holdup.... They'll do them as soon as I finish my set... Rob ------- original Message Return-Path: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Received: from [204.186.21.83] (cs6-03.pcn.ptd.net) by protocol.zycad.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15750; Fri, 3 Oct 97 10:11:39 EDT Received: from dsop.com by dsop.com with POP3; Fri, 3 Oct 97 10:00:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:58:56 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Message-Id: <971003095607_1857228633@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: ajc5150@net66.com, prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Return-Path: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: In a message dated 97-10-03 07:36:23 EDT, ajc5150@net66.com writes: << While we're waiting for the PA/PB-1's, I wish they'd re-release the 5 stripe E8's. While they're at it I wish they'd offer the E7's and E8's in DGLE, 5 stripe of course. >> Andy: Life-like has been hounded to death to do the DGLE 5 stripe and they just refuse to do it. Even though they were given copies of the drift cards, they seem petrified of not matching the color correctly and being left holding the bag 'er locos. Rich Orr - ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! - ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------- End of original Message ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:32:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 939 > > They've done other engines in DGLE w/ varying shades.. gold leaf too (on the FA's).... > FA, SD7, SD9, SW1200 and soon the GP9's... > > I don't think that paint shade is the real holdup.... > > They'll do them as soon as I finish my set... > > Rob Hey, Atlas announced (in HO) S1's, S3's, and a new run of GP7's, all before I did those myself (but after, of course, I bought another undec GP7 shell to use to do one. Oh well.) So there's hope, but they haven't announced Pennsy paint schemes for any of them yet -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:36:05 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: does Life-Like hate us? Content-Length: 1252 At 02:22 PM 10/6/97 -0400, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > >They've done other engines in DGLE w/ varying shades.. gold leaf too (on the FA's).... >FA, SD7, SD9, SW1200 and soon the GP9's... > >I don't think that paint shade is the real holdup.... > >They'll do them as soon as I finish my set... > >Rob Now we know the real culprit!! Don't it always seem that way. As soon as I quit modeling in HO, out came the alcos, geeps, sds, Fs, -everything I wanted (almost). I ended up making a VO1000 out of an athearn shell, boiling water, a 2" lead pipe, a compresser screen, and some real thin plastic - then painted it for a western road 'cause I knew nothing else usable would find it's way out of the manufacturers backlog until I left. Bah Humbug! At least PRR fans could find some non-brass steam locos, some passenger cars, and plenty of GG1s. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Atlas S1/3, GP7 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:51:18 -0500 Content-Length: 470 Atlas handout at National Hobby Show in Chicago includes no PRR roadnames for above. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:26:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: FAQ's Content-Length: 2045 In a message dated 97-10-06 10:38:10 EDT, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Being a newbie who just subscribed to this list, I have a few dumb newbie questions. Forgive me if this stuff has been brought up over and over and over again... was there a "Passenger Car Color"? I don't remember seeing it on diagrams, but maybe I just wasn't looking for it)? TUSCAN -- ALL PASSENGER CARS WERE PAINTED TUSCAN FROM CIRCA 1910 2. A lot of the best Pennsy information I have are official PRR diagrams for trackage, painting and general plans and drawings that Robert Reid reprinted in PC Railroader and Rails Northeast. I have seen ads for another magazine he supposedly published called Pennsy Journal, but I have never seen a copy. Whatever happened to those publications, and whatever happened to all the material he apparently rescued from the Pittsburgh Division HQ? Anyone know of a dealer of back issues for the mags mentioned above? BOB'S HOME IN MCkEESPORT WAS FLOODED AND ALL THE MATERIAL WHICH HE HAD IN HIS PERSONAL COLLECTION WAS LOST. THIS WAS ONE OF THE MANY REASONS HE CEASED PUBLISHING RAILS NORTHEAST. PENNSY JOURNAL WAS PUIBLICHED FOR QUARTERLY FROM 1981-1984. THERE ARE A TOTAL OF 16 ISSUES. MUCH OF THE MATERIAL SALVAGED FROM THE PITTSBURGH STATION IS THE PROPERTY OF THE PRRT&HS. THIS MATERIAL WAS MOVED TO LEWISTOWN APPROXIMATELY 18 MONTHS AGO AND IS BEING INVENTORIED AND CATALOGED BY THE SOCIETY. CURRENTLY IT IS NOT GENERALLY AVAILABLE FOR RESEARCH. Please excuse the capital letters. They are only to distinguish my reply from the original questions. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:23:59 -0400 (EDT) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Re: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Content-Length: 1461 E-R Models/Roco announced two models at the National Model & Hobby Show held at Rosemont, IL (Chicago area) 10/4-7/97 that may be of interest to Pennsy diesel fans. The first is the FP7 which appears to be a remake of the Atlas model (doesn't have the cylindrical water tank that the Atlas models also lacked). They state that it is a 1998 release that will be available in two PRR numbers (Stock No. 040-4008 & -1). The sample they had in PRR was Tuscon with 5 stripes. The second model is a "Sharknose" (that is the only description they give). The sample they had was a body "slapped" onto an undersized chassis. It was lettered Pennsylvania in the Tucson 5-stripe scheme. The body almost rode down on the rails! I was unable to talk to them to get any additional information. No prices were shown for either model. If anyone wants more details, here is the information on how to contact them: E-R Model Importers, Ltd. 1000 S. Main St. Newark, NY 14513 (800) 365-3876 (315) 331-0288 Fax: (315) 331-4090 No E-mail address shown. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 06:22:36 -0400 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1338 At the meeting of my model railroad club this past Sunday, someone had either an old water color (or reproduction of) the old station at Kittanning (sp?) Point, circa 1935 if I remember right. This appeared to show that there were only three tracks on Horseshoe through there. All the resident SPFs were asked when they put 4 tracks on the Curve. I couldn't come up with a date and figured that I would ask you guys. I found a brief discussion in "The Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictoral History" by Edwin P. Alexander that says that Horseshoe was originally planned for 2 tracks. It has a photo from the 1860s showing that the Curve was double tracked then. It also says that the mail line was upgraded to 4 tracks at the turn of the century. I couldn't find anything more definitive in any of the stuff I brought back from trips to the Curve or in my (limited) set of Keystones. Thanks in advance, Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:39:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1345 > This > appeared to show that there were only three tracks on Horseshoe > through there. All the resident SPFs were asked when they put 4 > tracks on the Curve. I couldn't come up with a date and figured > that I would ask you guys. It's not clear whether Horseshoe Curve was built with one or two mainline tracks. Probably two. It was opened on February 15, 1854. At the very least, it was double-tracked by the end of that year because the PRR 1854 annual report says the entire (then) Mountain Division was double-tracked by that date. A third track was added in 1898, and the fourth track in late 1899 and early 1900. While doing research for the book Horseshoe Heritage, I was very surprised that these events weren't documented somewhere. As you found, all the usual places came up empty. Finally, it showed up in newspaper microfilms for the Altoona Mirror and Altoona Tribune. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 8:05:16 -0400 From: KKOLLAR@pamdt.ang.af.mil Subject: Baldwin Sharks Content-Length: 1931 I just hooked up with PRR-Talk over the weekend and I can already tell that I'm going to ENJOY it! This is a great forum. I'm a big PRR fan but don't have a large pool of reference material so I'm hoping one of you experts can provide some help with my current modeling project. I'm in the process of backdating a Model Power Baldwin Shark from the RF-16 version it comes as to the earlier PRR DR-4-4-1500 variant. My last stumbling block is obtaining a good picture/drawing of the tail end of the locomotive. Specifically I need info on how the m.u. hoses were attached to the car body. I have some photos in the Pennsy Journal which show the rear end of a passenger Shark and it looks like the hoses hung down about a foot below the car body on some type of bracket (probably made from angle iron). The photos are not 100% clear so I can't tell for sure if what I'm seeing is actually the way it was and also I'm not sure if passenger and freight Sharks were configured the same. Also, can anyone tell me if Floquil Brunswick Green is a good match for the DGLE (I've already picked up on some of your lingo)? If not, is there a better/closer match? This has been an interesting project for me and I was amazed at the large number of subtle differences between the early and later versions. I'm want to be as exact as possible since Model Railroader has expressed an interest in publishing an article on the model. If anyone can help I would certainly appreciate it. Regards, Kris Kollar ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ListServ Help and Usage Guide Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 08:27:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2400 The lists have picked up quite a few new members lately, largely due to flyers distributed at RailFest in Altoona. For the convenience of new and veteran users alike, I am posting the listserv's help message to the list. Please save a copy for reference. Thank you. ---------------- Begin Help Message ---------------- This message describes the commands you can send to: LetterRip Requests Commands must be placed in the body of the message. The following commands are accepted: help Returns this message. lists Returns a list of the available mailing lists. info mail_list_name info PRR-Talk info Conrail-Talk Returns information about the specified list. subscribe mail_list_name subscribe PRR-Talk subscribe Conrail-Talk Adds your address to the list of subscribers. You can then send messages to the list. If you were subscribed to the digest version of the list, you are removed from the digest subscription list. subscribe digest mail_list_name subscribe digest PRR-Talk subscribe digest Conrail-Talk Adds your address to the list of subscribers. You can then send messages to the list. If you were subscribed to the normal version of the list, you are removed from the normal subscription list. unsubscribe mail_list_name unsubscribe PRR-Talk unsubscribe Conrail-Talk Your address is removed from the list of subscribers or digest subscribers. You will no longer receive messages or digests and will no longer be able to send messages to the list. If you have problems using these commands, you can contact the list server administrator at: Listmaster ----------------- End Help Message ----------------- --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: HO Pennsy diesel list updated From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 08:53:32 -0400 Content-Length: 2383 The "Sharknose" undersized chassis was undoubtedly one from their earlier Alco FA model - right trucks, wrong frame size. Model Power had the inverted problem when they built their sharls first and then dropped an Alco body on it producing their now famous FA1.5 I assume therfore that the body was a freight shark. Was it a RF15 or an RF16? The RF15 has a vertical ventilator just aft of the cab door, not unlike an E-7. MP did the more common RF16. regards Andy Miller >E-R Models/Roco announced two models at the National Model & Hobby Show held >at Rosemont, IL (Chicago area) 10/4-7/97 that may be of interest to Pennsy >diesel fans. > >The first is the FP7 which appears to be a remake of the Atlas model (doesn't >have the cylindrical water tank that the Atlas models also lacked). They >state that it is a 1998 release that will be available in two PRR numbers >(Stock No. 040-4008 & -1). The sample they had in PRR was Tuscon with 5 >stripes. > >The second model is a "Sharknose" (that is the only description they give). > The sample they had was a body "slapped" onto an undersized chassis. It was >lettered Pennsylvania in the Tucson 5-stripe scheme. The body almost rode >down on the rails! > >I was unable to talk to them to get any additional information. No prices >were shown for either model. If anyone wants more details, here is the >information on how to contact them: > >E-R Model Importers, Ltd. >1000 S. Main St. >Newark, NY 14513 > >(800) 365-3876 >(315) 331-0288 > >Fax: (315) 331-4090 > >No E-mail address shown. > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: DGLE Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:59:25 -0400 Content-Length: 1507 Kris, the other SPFs, for what it's worth, my suggestions for DGLE... --for a newly painted unit, one part Floquil Brunswick Green, one part Engine Black, one part Dark Blue. Or, you can use Scalecoat's Brunswick Green, which is pretty close just as it comes out of the bottle. --for a unit that's been on the road for a few days or more, try using straight Grimy Black. Others on this list have made this discovery as well. Grimy Black is just about dead solid perfect for the finish on almost every Pennsy loco. Try it. You'll like it. If you do, please be certain to make your final finish coat an absolutely dead flat, such as Testor's Dullcoat. No shine anywhere. Period. Even the handrails were dirty. Good luck, Andrew Harmantas, SPF, waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving here today. Must be a maintenance window--or something. > Also, can anyone tell me if Floquil Brunswick Green is a good match > for the > DGLE (I've already picked up on some of your lingo)? If not, is there > a > better/closer match? > > > Regards, > > Kris Kollar > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Anyone need Sharks in O scale? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 09:10:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 708 eBay has an ABA set of O scale Sharks up for auction...if anyone's interested. (I know we are mostly HO and N scalers.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:38:13 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: shark details Content-Length: 2288 And now Kris Kollar writes: >I'm in the process of backdating a Model Power Baldwin Shark from the RF-16 >version it comes as to the earlier PRR DR-4-4-1500 variant. > >Specifically I need info on how the m.u. hoses were attached to the car >body. I have some photos in the Pennsy Journal which show the rear end of >a passenger Shark and it looks like the hoses hung down about a foot below >the car body on some type of bracket (probably made from angle iron). > >Also, can anyone tell me if Floquil Brunswick Green is a good match for the >DGLE (I've already picked up on some of your lingo)? If not, is there a >better/closer match? ***** First off, welcome aboard Kris! A couple of thoughts: I am just guessing here, but I suspect the bracket you mention was likely made of solid steel (probably 4 x 4 bar). The railroads had plenty of load capacity to carry the weight and it would have doubled as a safety bumper rather like you see on the rear of tractor-trailers. This could have been welded up out of pieces or (more likely, seeing what welding technology was back then) heat formed out of a continuous bar. Look at the corners and see if they seem rounded. On the paint color of DGLE; seeing the conniptions the list has gone thru, this IS a question! Just exactly what IS DGLE? Can anyone do a drop count using Floquil? A note on that: I had a conversation some time ago with a SIG advisor to Badger who said that they are going to enormous efforts to get their model paints correct. I have not used their paints, but from what this guy said, they sound impressive. Supposedly, Badger is using a new generation paint formula more sophisticated than Floquil or Scale-Crap and they are working closely with the SIGs and railroads to get the exact color match. You might check them out. All the best, Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:08:19 -0500 Content-Length: 1029 Maybe everyone else has seen them advertised and I missed it, but a guy at the Great AmericanTrain Show at DuPage County fairgrounds, Illinois, last month was selling Erie built bodies to fit on an Athearn PA chassis. I believe they are made in Canada. Both versions unfortunately had Mars lights, but it is a start. Bodies looked to be in the same resin Funararo & Cu...(can't pronounce or spell it) used to use on their Pfaudler and Borden's cars. Hopefully not as that material should replace Kevlar as bulletproof police vests (I gave up trying to drill holes for grabirons). Price was in the mid-$30. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, Wisconsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:12:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Content-Length: 1352 > E-R Models/Roco announced two models at the National Model & Hobby Show held > at Rosemont, IL (Chicago area) 10/4-7/97 that may be of interest to Pennsy > diesel fans. > > The first is the FP7 which appears to be a remake of the Atlas model (doesn't > have the cylindrical water tank that the Atlas models also lacked). They > state that it is a 1998 release that will be available in two PRR numbers > (Stock No. 040-4008 & -1). The sample they had in PRR was Tuscon with 5 > stripes. Note that Roco did the original FP7's for Atlas. > The second model is a "Sharknose" (that is the only description they give). > The sample they had was a body "slapped" onto an undersized chassis. It was > lettered Pennsylvania in the Tucson 5-stripe scheme. The body almost rode > down on the rails! Note also that the "Sharks" offered by Model Power recently were also Roco products... the Roco logo is still on the fuel tank! -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: FAQ's Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:30:59 -0500 Content-Length: 1048 There were actually 11 Pennsy Journals published, of which I own a set. I have some business priorities right now, but am learning the net and websites and will borrow a scanner and try and post indexes if desired. I can send a reasonable number of requests via fax if anyone has an urgent need. My understanding was that Bob Reid,in addition to health problems, lost most of his photos, slides, and other material on Pennsy to water damage from some cause. In line with some of the other comments on deposits, Bob made a yeoman effort to fulfill uncompleted subscriptions with other material he had in his collection, which I admired. Bob Zoeller Fox Point ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: HO Pennsy diesel list updated From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 10:51:47 -0400 Content-Length: 1966 The company is called NovaTech and they have a web page at: http://www.novatech.on.ca/modelling/index.html Both their products and their business practices have a BAD reputation, but if you want an Erie built, the're the only game in town! I have never bought anything from them. Thererfore what I said is stricly hearsay. You saw the product and can judge for yourself. I will proabably buy a set for myself someday. Project # 37846 on my list. I'm currently ion project # 2 ;-) regards Andy Miller >Maybe everyone else has seen them advertised and I missed it, but a guy at the Great AmericanTrain Show at DuPage County fairgrounds, Illinois, last month was selling Erie built bodies to fit on an Athearn PA chassis. I believe they are made in Canada. > Both versions unfortunately had Mars lights, but it is a start. Bodies looked to be in the same resin Funararo & Cu...(can't pronounce or spell it) used to use on their Pfaudler and Borden's cars. Hopefully not as that material should replace Kevlar as bulletproof police vests (I gave up trying to drill holes for grabirons). > >Price was in the mid-$30. > >Bob Zoeller >Fox Point, Wisconsin > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:07:57 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: FAQ subject suggestions, SPF meaning Content-Length: 1305 To one and all: Several of y'all (I think Jerry B., among others) have said they are working on FAQ lists that will include our abbreviations. I have one suggestion. The only definition for SPF should be: SERIOUS PENNSY FAN. A commonly cited alternative definition is an insult hurled by envious modelers and railfans frustrated that they chose to study and portray less signifcant and illustrous railroads. If we can designate DGLE and F.C.C., we can rid our portion of Cyberspace of this demeaning definition. Other definitions which need to be included are for the line nicknames such as The Panhandle or the Fort Wayne System, the Pennsylvania Co., Lines West of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Lines, and explanations of the dvisions, grand divisions and regions; Pecularities of Lines West motive power; TrainFone communications among others. As usual I'm tilting a little to the West. Tom V> ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 11:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: Baldwin Sharks Content-Length: 2676 In a message dated 97-10-07 08:51:41 EDT, you write: << I just hooked up with PRR-Talk over the weekend and I can already tell that I'm going to ENJOY it! This is a great forum. I'm a big PRR fan but don't have a large pool of reference material so I'm hoping one of you experts can provide some help with my current modeling project. >> Welcome aboard, Kris. I'm the resident Lines West of Pittsburgh curmudgeon (what's catenary?) You have every sign of being hopelessly infected with the SPF virus (SPF=Serious Pennsy Fan). If you haven't already, consider joning the PRR Technical & Historical Society. The $30 annual dues includes a subscription to its quaterly journal, The Keystone, an excellant source of prototype information. The only trouble with the PRRT&HS for us modelers is that its leadership are not modelers and tend to keep prototype information very close to the vest. PRR-Talk fills this void for me. I'm currently remotoring and detailing two HO Roundhouse/MDC kits and two Bowser/PennLine kits, 1 each of both product lines' E6 4-4-2 Atlantic and H9 2-8-0 Consolidation kits. Dick Ross in Cleveland, an O-Scale modeler, has given me a lot of assistance in trying to model the E6 kit as a Pennsylania Lines E7 Atlantic (Lines West had no E6s but until unification of the system 1920-1923 allowed Lines East motive power to migrate west. I'm planning a layout of the PRR/Panhandle Columbus Division around Xenia, Ohio, and Springfield, Ohio, that for operating reasons as well historical reasons will include a short operating section of Detroit, Toledo & Ironton mainline (a wholly-owned but independently operated PRR subsidiary from 1929-1968). The Fall 1997 issue of the Keystone has a story on used steamer sold by the PRR that will allow me to model one Atlantic and one Consolidation as they were used by the DT&I in the 1930s-1950s. Also in the works is an article on the N6 cabin car class. It took me 10 years to realize that in 1955 the N6b was the most common cabin car used by the Pennsylvania RR. A number of foljks have sent information on this subject. Welcome aboard and enjoy the trip. Tom Vondruska, Yellow Springs, Ohio; on the old Little Miami RR, the Panhandle's Springfield Branch. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:01:54 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Baldwin Sharks Content-Length: 897 In a message dated 97-10-07 08:51:46 EDT, KKOLLAR@pamdt.ang.af.mil writes: << Also, can anyone tell me if Floquil Brunswick Green is a good match for the DGLE (I've already picked up on some of your lingo)? If not, is there a better/closer match? >> I don't have my referrence material with me so I will only respond to this portion of your inquiry for now. Floquil is NOT a good choice for DGLE. Scalecoat is much better and in my humble opinion Modelflex and Accuflex are the best. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:10:32 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: FAQ subject suggestions, SPF meaning Content-Length: 1893 In a message dated 97-10-07 11:12:16 EDT, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << Several of y'all (I think Jerry B., among others) have said they are working on FAQ lists that will include our abbreviations. I have one suggestion. The only definition for SPF should be: SERIOUS PENNSY FAN. A commonly cited alternative definition is an insult hurled by envious modelers and railfans frustrated that they chose to study and portray less signifcant and illustrous railroads. If we can designate DGLE and F.C.C., we can rid our portion of Cyberspace of this demeaning definition. Other definitions which need to be included are for the line nicknames such as The Panhandle or the Fort Wayne System, the Pennsylvania Co., Lines West of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Lines, and explanations of the dvisions, grand divisions and regions; Pecularities of Lines West motive power; TrainFone communications among others. As usual I'm tilting a little to the West. Tom V> >> Another important piece of information for anyone researching the PRR is a complete list of the lines which the PRR leased and or absorbed. When reviewing early history much of the information is filed under the names of the original roads. This would be an extensive list. I tend to agree with Tom about the SPF. Although by using "slobering Pennsy fanatic" as a self descriptive term, PRR fans have taken the sting out of the term. And therby turned the tables on our detractors. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Flyover at South Fork Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 15:58:57 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1089 I ask this question for Bill Lewis (president, NCC, PRRTHS) who is still living in the analog world... South Fork, Pa., had a flyover so empty coal hoppers could get up and over the busy mainline without disturbing traffic. There is a track chart in the new "Triumph 1" book and a recent photo. The photo shows only the stone bridge abutments. Anyone know what kind of bridge was there? Can anyone cite a source of a photo? Probably either a steel girder or a steel truss. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:09:30 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1206 Hello you All... This info about the curve comes from "On the main line" by E.P.Alexander Page no 299 shows a train in the late 1860's at Kittanning Point. This photo shows two tracks. All the pictures from the 1870's show two tracks. On page 306 in Fig.369 it states and shows three tracks...it is now 1904 also note that at the time there was a mine spur off of the curve then. this spur is gone later. "Pennsy Power I"shows a old Chaney picture taken in 1910 of some old H-6 class engines...there are now 4 tracks... I know this doesn't give an exact date(s) but it gives you a idea of when the changes were made. Also one more thing...in the photo on page 306 of "On the main line" note the newness of the fill. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:57:26 -0400 (EDT) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Re: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Content-Length: 516 Regarding the E-R Model Importers Sharks, I do not recall if it was a RF15 or RF16. Perhaps someone else who saw it will know. Sorry. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:06:03 -0400 (EDT) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Re: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Content-Length: 516 Regarding the E-R Model Importers Sharks, I do not recall if it was a RF15 or RF16. Perhaps someone else who saw it will know. Sorry. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: FAQ subject suggestions, SPF meaning Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 21:54:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1333 On 10/7/97 2:10 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: >Another important piece of information for anyone researching the PRR is a >complete list of the lines which the PRR leased and or absorbed. When >reviewing early history much of the information is filed under the names of >the original roads. This would be an extensive list. That lists exists on "Keystone Crossings" -- it's the Hobo's Guide. However, I only add names of lines as someone is willing to write at least some descriptive text about it. I had many more lines listed before my drive crash last spring, but it's nearly back where it was. With the exception of the Sodus Point portion, I'm working on the Northern Central and its ancestors. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:11:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Content-Length: 657 On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 JDPanza@aol.com wrote: > Regarding the E-R Model Importers Sharks, I do not recall if it was a RF15 or > RF16. Perhaps someone else who saw it will know. Sorry. > The Model Power units were RF16, if my theory holds, these are those, so... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 23:19:24 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: FAQ subject suggestions, SPF meaning Content-Length: 829 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > ... > I tend to agree with Tom about the SPF. Although by using "slobering Pennsy > fanatic" as a self descriptive term, PRR fans have taken the sting out of the > term. And therby turned the tables on our detractors. > > ... I like the term. It evokes a level of fanaticism which other roads could never inspire, and frankly don't deserve. ;-) -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Daniel S. Dawdy" Subject: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania New Web Site Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:20:29 -0500 (CDT) Content-Length: 1547 We are happy to announce the official Web site for the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at: http://www.rrhistorical.com/frm The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania houses one of the most significant collections of historic railroad artifacts in the world and continues to grow in size and quality. More than 90 locomotives and cars from the mid-19th to the mid-20th centuries are on display, including the Pennsylvania Railroad Historical Collection. Most are one-of-a-kind survivors which are restored to original appearance. In addition to exhibits of smaller railroad-related artifiacts, the Museum's library and archives contain a wide array of books, photographs, manuscripts, blueprints, and original corporate railroad material which reflect the colorful history of Pennsylvania's railroads. Please stop by and see our site and let us know what you think. Comments welcome at frm@redrose.net Announced for Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania by: Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing 319 N. Naperville Road, Suite 348 Bolingbrook, IL 60490 Voice 630.969.7837 - Data 630.960.3046 - dsdawdy@mcs.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:53:02 +0000 (CENTRAL) From: LAKINSA@AXP.CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU Subject: PRR Concrete overpass Content-Length: 681 I am trying to model a PRR concrete overpass bridge with the keystone on each end of the bridge. The problem that I am running in to is getting the keystone into my mold. I have the mold made for the bridge itself, but the krystone detail is missing. Any sugestions? Seth Lakin Chesterton IN ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: FAQ subject suggestions Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 9:13:36 EDT Content-Length: 1020 > Another important piece of information for anyone researching the PRR is a > complete list of the lines which the PRR leased and or absorbed. When > reviewing early history much of the information is filed under the names of > the original roads. This would be an extensive list. Rich, I started work on this task, but it is monumental. I got sidetracked by more important stuff. Tom Vondruska says that he's got a lot of this sort of info on Lines West. I offered to host his stuff; he preferred to host it on his own web site, as I recall. Perhaps then I could do Lines East on mine, and we'd cross- link. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Flyover at South Fork (fwd) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 9:15:25 EDT Content-Length: 882 > I ask this question for Bill Lewis (president, NCC, PRRTHS) who is still > living in the analog world... > > South Fork, Pa., had a flyover so empty coal hoppers could get up and > over the busy mainline without disturbing traffic. There is a track chart > in the new "Triumph 1" book and a recent photo. The photo shows only the > stone bridge abutments. Aw, Jeez, and I thought you found that bridge on the diagram of SO that I recently posted on my web site ... :-( -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Just the FAQs Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 10:11:59 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 690 I've posted my initial FAQ on Pennsy terms on "Keystone Crossings". Take a look and provide feedback. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Flyover at South Fork (fwd) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:09:23 EDT Content-Length: 1000 > On 10/8/97 9:15 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > > >Aw, Jeez, and I thought you found that bridge on the diagram of SO that > >I recently posted on my web site ... :-( > > Don't s'pose your chart indicates the bridge type? No, sorry. Maps are from the 1940s. I'm on another of a set of pages in Netscape right now and don't want to jump out. Find the map (and exact date) on my usual Maps page ... I _can_ tell you that the bridge was no longer there by 1983 when I first visited SO. Much of the innards of the tower were saved by the Railroaders Memorial Museum, BTW... -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:33:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD Content-Length: 1103 Hi Gang, I am planning to drive down to Maryland this weekend to attend a show at the Maryland State Fairgrounds in Timonium; and was wondering if any others in the group planned on attending. They advertise 680 individual vendors and dealers. I have never been to one of these shows before and I'm looking forward to the experience. I stopped by Mitchell's, in Wilmington, DE once before and talk about being a SPF. I have a very small collection: an E-6, G-5s, (2) K-4s, L-1, I-1s, G-53sd and an H-10s. As long as the credit cards hold out, I plan on adding to my inventory. And, no, I don't even have a layout. I'm just content to sit and admire them in their display cases. Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:05:45 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: FAQ's Content-Length: 879 In a message dated 97-10-07 23:25:54 EDT, bob@amsignal.com writes: << There were actually 11 Pennsy Journals published, of which I own a set. >> There were acatually 16 issues of Pennsy Journal. Issues 16 states inside the cover that it is the last issue. Issues 12-16 were on 20lb paper not glossy papper as the first 11 and consisted mostly of detailed division maps. These may have been issued after Bob's basement was flooded in a effort to fill existing subscriptions. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: FAQ's Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:36:23 -0500 Content-Length: 1139 I stand corrected. Just another orphan Lines West guy who did not get the word. Regards. Bob Zoeller ---------- From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 11:05 AM To: Robert Zoeller; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: FAQ's In a message dated 97-10-07 23:25:54 EDT, bob@amsignal.com writes: << There were actually 11 Pennsy Journals published, of which I own a set. >> There were acatually 16 issues of Pennsy Journal. Issues 16 states inside the cover that it is the last issue. Issues 12-16 were on 20lb paper not glossy papper as the first 11 and consisted mostly of detailed division maps. These may have been issued after Bob's basement was flooded in a effort to fill existing subscriptions. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:07:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: HO X32 round roof 50' boxes in HO/PSY-2 Content-Length: 946 Central Hobby Supply in East Syracuse apparently is looking to rerun their X32 round roof 50' boxes and is looking for reservations, if anyone cares. I expect to reserve later this week. Also, while at Railfest, i grabbed the last Pennsy Steam Years 2 from the gift shop at the curve (nyah!). Could've gotten it cheaper elsewhere but I bought most of my other Morning Sun books there, and I have no trouble giving them the extra $$$, so... Looks good pix-wise, but I don't much care for the format. The PDY books have a much nicer format, IMHO... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 12:18:26 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: RAIL-GRINDER@PHILA-PA Content-Length: 1084 Hello all; The Speno Rail Grinder Train is now on the Conrail track ( 0 track ) at Holmesburg Jct, Amtrak NEC. The crew told me they will be there until 9:00 pm. The train will then head south to the CSX. Stan -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:03:43 -0400 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: FAQ's Content-Length: 1313 Bob Zoeller wrote: > > There were actually 11 Pennsy Journals published, of which I own a > set. > I have some business priorities right now, but am learning the net and > websites and will borrow a scanner and try and post indexes if > desired. I can send a reasonable number of requests via fax if anyone > has an urgent need. > My understanding was that Bob Reid,in addition to health problems, > lost most of his photos, slides, and other material on Pennsy to water > damage from some cause. > In line with some of the other comments on deposits, Bob made a yeoman > effort to fulfill uncompleted subscriptions with other material he had > in his collection, which I admired. > > Bob Zoeller > Fox Point > I look forward to seeing these. I do not know the legal footwork you will need to do for this. I hope it happens. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:49:52 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/08/97 Content-Length: 953 Hello All-- I agree with Rich Orr that Floquil is not a good match for DGLF. But I have a hard time finding anything satisfactory. I used to use Scalecoat, which used to be more "greenish." Now the Scalecoat is more "blueish." I suspect that the blue cast we see in photographs is an effect of light and film and weathering. If you look at GG1 4935 in the museum at Strasburg, it has a definite "greenish" cast. I'll have to take a look at Acuflex. But for an engine color that looks like a freshly-shopped unit, I'm not sure what to do. Jim Hunter ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: MO tower Date: Wed, 08 Oct 97 17:20:30 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 750 Hi all, Does anyone know what's going to happen with MO tower. I know they tried to move it and it started to fall apart so they stopped. It's still standing on it's original site w/ some very visible damage. Is the town trashing the entire idea of moving it or is there a possibility of them coughing up lots of money to move the tower correctly? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:45:00 -0400 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Re: Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD Content-Length: 695 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > As long as the > credit cards hold out, I plan on adding to my > inventory. A small bit of advice, bring cash. Some vendors at these types of shows aren't set up to deal with credit cards, and if you are prone to negotiating the price, you'll do better with cash. Bob Zeolla ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:08:37 -0400 Content-Length: 2024 George, If you look behind the fair grounds where the meet is held in Timonium, you will see that you are right next to the Pennsy's Northern Central tracks. Now in use by the light rail system with freight service on this end handled by Conrail. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Eichhorn@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 11:33 AM > > Hi Gang, > > I am planning to drive down to Maryland this > weekend to attend a show at the Maryland > State Fairgrounds in Timonium; and was > wondering if any others in the group > planned on attending. They advertise 680 > individual vendors and dealers. I have never > been to one of these shows before and I'm > looking forward to the experience. I stopped > by Mitchell's, in Wilmington, DE once before > and talk about being a SPF. I have a very > small collection: an E-6, G-5s, (2) K-4s, L-1, > I-1s, G-53sd and an H-10s. As long as the > credit cards hold out, I plan on adding to my > inventory. And, no, I don't even have a layout. > I'm just content to sit and admire them in their > display cases. > > Regards, > > George > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Oct 1997 18:36:59 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: NOVATECH CROOKS (was HO Pennsy diesel list updated) Content-Length: 1968 Regarding NovaTech and the FM Erie Built Shells. DO NOT DO ANY BUSINESS WITH NOVATECH. THEY ARE CROOKS! I sent them a check for a set of A-B-A shells last March. They immediately cashed my check, but I have never received the shells. I have spent as much money on long distance telephone calls to them trying to get the shells or my money back as what the shells cost. I have spoken numerous times with both Joe and Joan at NovaTech regarding my order and they both LIE! They always tell me that the shells will be shipped in a few days, but it never happens. I have written the president of NovaTech (return receipt requested so I know they got the letter) to try to resolve this issue and have received absolutely no response. I am currently trying to work through the Ontario Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations to try to get my money back. Andy says they have a bad reputation. That is putting it mildly. Bill Laird Still waiting for his NovaTech FM Erie Built shells in Houston, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> asmiller@mail11.mitre.org 10/07/97 10:19am wrote>>> The company is called NovaTech and they have a web page at: http://www.novatech.on.ca/modelling/index.html Both their products and their business practices have a BAD reputation, but if you want an Erie built, the're the only game in town! I have never bought anything from them. Thererfore what I said is stricly hearsay. You saw the product and can judge for yourself. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Scottcamer@aol.com Subject: Re: Flyover at South Fork Content-Length: 1281 Gerry, My and I grew up in the South Fork / Summerhill area. The old South Fork Bridge had 2 sections. On the rail side the bridge was made of stone and concrete with stone risers. And on the creek side it was a steel bridge. Back in the mid to early 80's they painted the bridge a light blue. About 5 years age the bridge was still used for vehicle traffic. But the bridge has since been removed and replaced with a new higher span further up the road. I have some really old photos from my mother in law which show the bridge in the early 20's. Back then it was only used for people to get to the tracks for pick up by the main line to Altoona. I even have a few more recent photos of that bridge. And if you want I can take some of the new one. Let me know if you want me to make copies of the photos for you. Thanks Scott Cameron E-mail: ScottCamer@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Scottcamer@aol.com Subject: Re: Flyover at South Fork Content-Length: 1281 Gerry, My and I grew up in the South Fork / Summerhill area. The old South Fork Bridge had 2 sections. On the rail side the bridge was made of stone and concrete with stone risers. And on the creek side it was a steel bridge. Back in the mid to early 80's they painted the bridge a light blue. About 5 years age the bridge was still used for vehicle traffic. But the bridge has since been removed and replaced with a new higher span further up the road. I have some really old photos from my mother in law which show the bridge in the early 20's. Back then it was only used for people to get to the tracks for pick up by the main line to Altoona. I even have a few more recent photos of that bridge. And if you want I can take some of the new one. Let me know if you want me to make copies of the photos for you. Thanks Scott Cameron E-mail: ScottCamer@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 21:01:59 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: Baldwin Sharks Content-Length: 1951 At 08:05 AM 10/7/97 -0400, Kris Kollar wrote: > ... can anyone tell me if Floquil Brunswick Green is a good match for the >DGLE Greetings, Kris. I used the Floquil solvent based Brunswick Green on a plastic F-7 shell and an undec. Atlas C-425 and it came out just right ... very dark, appears black until you sit the lash-up next to a true black engine. I used Floquil grey primer as an undercoat and left it sit for three days. I model eastern narrow gauge, but at the time I was w/o a layout and had joined a HO std gauge club. So put this lashup together so I could operate ... the club follows Southern RR prototype (although w/ a liberal attitude toward time and/or member's foibles. You shoulda heard 'em howl when the "Pennsy" showed up on the property ;-) Good luck with your article. I'm posting this to the list at large to stimulate comment. Regards, Vagel Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RailFest photos Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 22:03:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 694 I have posted photos from my RailFest '97 trip to my site. Follow the "Photos" link to "Altoona". ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Baldwin Sharks Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:04:57 -0400 Content-Length: 2391 I believe that the correct shade of DGLE is in the eyes of the beholder (sounds like a real cop out huh?). Here's my 2 cents worth. A friend of mine does custom painting and I had him do most of my steam locomotives. He was originally using Scale Coat BRunswick Green and I used to use it when painting diesels. I thought it looked better than Floquil BRG (oh no, another SPF Acronym?) and definitely much better than Grimy Black, again to my eyes. His opinion is that Scale Coat has changed something in the formula and thier BRG is now too green. He switched to Badger's Accu - Flex and their is no noticeable difference with his earlier work. I think everyone agrees that Stewart's DGLE is excellent. I added some Pennsy details to a set of F3's and used Badger's Accu - Flex straight from the bottle. The match was good so my vote for the proper DGLE is Badger's Accu - Flex. Joe ---------- > From: SUVCWORR@aol.com > To: KKOLLAR@pamdt.ang.af.mil; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Baldwin Sharks > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 2:01 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-07 08:51:46 EDT, KKOLLAR@pamdt.ang.af.mil writes: > > << > Also, can anyone tell me if Floquil Brunswick Green is a good match for the > DGLE (I've already picked up on some of your lingo)? If not, is there a > better/closer match? > >> > I don't have my referrence material with me so I will only respond to this > portion of your inquiry for now. Floquil is NOT a good choice for DGLE. > Scalecoat is much better and in my humble opinion Modelflex and Accuflex are > the best. > > Rich Orr > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:28:54 -0400 (EDT) From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: Re: Mainline Content-Length: 1637 In a message dated 97-09-27 10:58:53 EDT, you write: << Subj: Mainline Date: 97-09-27 10:58:53 EDT From: Hal6963@aol.com Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com When the Pennsylvania State Legislature authorized a "mainline of transportation facilities" (railroads, canals, roads) in the 1840s? does anyone know if the was the origin of the term "Mainline" as used in railroads? Also, could this have influenced the use of the term "Main Street"? Harold >> Probably that "mainline" for railroads does comes from the "Main Line of Public Works" in PA as Hal suggests; however, other railroads used similar terms: Baltimore & Ohio considered its route the "Main Stem" by 1858, (Modelski, Andrew M., , Washington, Library of Congress, 1984, p. 24) (I believe B&O used the term earlier, but there are many miles between me and my Stover). I'm just grabbing on the Main Street question, but I seem to recall an introduction to the (Smithsonian?) photograph book "Main Street: USA" which included a discussion of the origin/use of "Main Street"; yet again, the book is at home, but I believe it's still in print and on the shelves of Barnes & Noble. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Flyover at South Fork Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 06:39:48 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1933 On 10/8/97 7:41 PM, Scottcamer@aol.com (Scottcamer@aol.com) wrote: > My and I grew up in the South Fork / Summerhill area. The old South Fork >Bridge had 2 sections. On the rail side the bridge was made of stone and >concrete with stone risers. And on the creek side it was a steel bridge. > Back in the mid to early 80's they painted the bridge a light blue. About 5 >years age the bridge was still used for vehicle traffic. But the bridge has >since been removed and replaced with a new higher span further up the road. > > I have some really old photos from my mother in law which show the bridge >in the early 20's. Back then it was only used for people to get to the >tracks for pick up by the main line to Altoona. I even have a few more >recent photos of that bridge. And if you want I can take some of the new >one. > > Let me know if you want me to make copies of the photos for you. Sounds like you're speaking of a pedestrian/vehicle bridge. I am speaking of a railroad bridge where the outer track rose up and swung across the remaining tracks so the train could get to the other side of the main line without going through turnouts which interrupt the flow on the other tracks. Having grown up in the area, you should be familiar with this bridge as well. Railroad only. Any photos? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 07:10:37 -0400 From: James Hermsdorfer Subject: Re: MO tower Content-Length: 2441 Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone know what's going to happen with MO tower. > I know they tried to move it and it started to fall apart > so they stopped. It's still standing on it's original > site w/ some very visible damage. Is the town trashing > the entire idea of moving it or is there a possibility of > them coughing up lots of money to move the tower correctly? > > Rob > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Rob, According to the Johnstown Tribune.. The town of Cresson had formed a group to take care of moving the tower and then made a donation of money to them. The concrete pad was poured close to the "railfan platform" to set the tower on. As you know, the tower started to fall apart when they tried to lift it. No one could figure a way to move it without irrepairable harm. the money that the town of Cresson donated was returned to the town. The project has been abandoned. The mine "locomotive" that was donated by Mr. Callander is being given back to him. There is now a Cabin car in the picture that apparantly is going to take place of tower and the mine "locomotive". There is no one or no group that will volunteer to take MO apart, board by board, and reconstruct it on the pad. LEMO was saved this way. It's a damn shame. I would volunteer to help, but I live too far away to help every day. My parents still live in Lilly and I visit area regularly. It will only be a matter of time before a hoe operator on Conrail is idle for a day or so, and then MO will be no'MO. I can only hope that Cresson will proudly display the PRR keystone on their cabin car....not like the caboose at Gallitzin. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Bowser K4 - This could cause a stir! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 07:39:28 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1834 A while back, while discussing my efforts to build a Bowser K4, it was discussed at length that the tender included with Bowser K4 kits was inaccurate. A suggestion was made to substitute a Bachmann tender in its place. This could ruffle some feathers, but... Eagle eye Harry Fitch found some photos of K4 #1361 at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum last weekend at RailFest. He indicated that the photos show the "Bowser-style" tender linked to the K4! Following his direction, I found the photos and took photos of the photos! With glare and all, the only one that came out well shows #1361 in Sunbury in 1937. (The URL direct to the photo is http://prr.dsop.com/photos/railfest97/k4_1361_photo.jpeg .) Unless you have an image app that can blow the photo up, you may not be able to distinguish the tender details from the online image. It is clear in my original photo, however. I held my unfinished Bowser tender up, aligning it at the same angle as the photo. It looks like a dead ringer! All of the rivet lines are accurate, etc. (No, I didn't count rivets...the photo isn't clear enough!) Maybe Bowser doesn't match the "typical" K4 tender. However, at this point and place in time, it does! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 8:01:13 -0400 From: KKOLLAR@pamdt.ang.af.mil Subject: Timetables Content-Length: 1076 Recently I purchased some PRR East-West timetables from 1944 and I was trying to figure out how to read them. These were the first set of timetables I've ever read and they didn't make much more sense than Greek does to me. Specifically I was trying to see when the trains ran through my hometown in Northeast PA. I know the PRR had a small station in Nanticoke, PA because I have a picture of it from 1936. I believe Naticoke was the next to last stop before the line terminated in Wilkes-Barre. Where there very specific local timetables put out for each area? Also, would there have been a specific name for this portion of the line? Regards, Kris Kollar Hershey ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/08/97 (fwd) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 8:22:21 EDT Content-Length: 1055 > I agree with Rich Orr that Floquil is not a good match for DGLF. > But I have a hard time finding anything satisfactory. I used to use > Scalecoat, which used to be more "greenish." Now the Scalecoat is more > "blueish." I suspect that the blue cast we see in photographs is an > effect of light and film and weathering. If you look at GG1 4935 in the > museum at Strasburg, it has a definite "greenish" cast. I don't know about model paints, but be careful about making color pronouncements about equipment sitting _in_ the museum. The lights inside _themselves_ have are a greenish white. You really have to take the locomotive outside. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: MO tower (fwd) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 8:27:46 EDT Content-Length: 589 > There is no one or no group that will volunteer to take MO apart, board > by board, and reconstruct it on the pad. LEMO was saved this way. Actually, no. LEMO was cut into 6 or 7 pieces. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: MO tower (fwd) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 08:42:14 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 727 On 10/9/97 8:27 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Actually, no. LEMO was cut into 6 or 7 pieces. I can verify; I have photos. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Bowser K4 - This could cause a stir! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 08:56:03 -0400 Content-Length: 1375 Jerry, I think I started the Bowser K4 Tender issue; so I suppose I should respond. The tender B supplies did run on some K4s; but it was very rare. I too have seen fotos of it, but not very many. I don't know the class designation off hand, but could find it out. I suspect that PennLine chose that tender because it was correct for both some K4's and most, if nopt all, L1's and they intended to do the L1 next reusing as many of the K4 parts as possible. It is a very common tender for the L1. I believe the Bachmann tender is a 110P84. It was a very common tender behind K4s as was the slightly larger 130P84. The latter is the tender behind my United K4. I copied it for my PL/B K4s by shrinking the shell of the Bowser "long distance" tender by slicing 2 pieces out of it and putting it on K4 tender trucks. It makes a big diffeence in the appearance o the engine to have a commonly seen K4 tender. It loses its Bowser look. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Oct 1997 07:58:13 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: PRR K4 #1361 (was Bowser K4 - This could cause a stir!) Content-Length: 1497 >>> britton@pit-magnus.com 10/09/97 07:00am wrote>>> Eagle eye Harry Fitch found some photos of K4 #1361 at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum last weekend at RailFest. He indicated that the photos show the "Bowser-style" tender linked to the K4! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry's mention of #1361 reminded me that the group might like an update on the restoration of same. I spent last Friday at Steamtown and took the "backshop tour". During the tour we past #1361 stripped and sitting on shop trucks. According to the ranger/tour guide, work is progressing on schedule and should be completed in time for next summer tourist season. Biggest obsticle at the moment is that the metal in the rear of the firebox (the backhead) was too thin to pass inspection. It has been cut out and is being readied to be sent to a foundry so they can cast a new one. Altoona Railroad Museum is paying for the restoration and #1361 will be returned there after running next summer at Steamtown. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:21:25 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: Timetables Content-Length: 1030 The Jan 1930 Official Guide reprint shows four trains each way between Sunburya nd Wilkes-Barre, stopping at Nanticoke; various connections from the south. No. 8604 had sleeping car Pgh-Wilkes- Barre via Harisburg and Sunbury . Most trains also stopped at South Wilkes-Barre. There were also two trains each way Phila (Broad St) to W-B, stopping at Nanticoke, via Pottsville. Your town of North East must be too small for the Guide, perhaps it's a station in an operating timetable. Not to be confused with the North East near Erie, of course, which is on a railroad which we do not talk about here. John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:34:28 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PRR Concrete overpass Content-Length: 1725 Greetings to Seth and the group, How about using one of those PRR Keystone refrigerator magnets. The one I have has relief to it. The intertwined PRR and keystone outline ares imprinted into its slightly larger overall keystone shape. Don't know if they come in smaller sizes. The one I have might be to big. It would certainly be prominent. You could use them as is and place them within your mold. Or you could use RTV silicon rubber to make a negative pattern from it to place in your mold. Hope this suggestion was of some help. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:53 AM 10/8/97 +0000, LAKINSA@AXP.CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU wrote: >I am trying to model a PRR concrete overpass bridge with the keystone >on each end of the bridge. The problem that I am running in to is getting >the keystone into my mold. I have the mold made for the bridge itself, but >the krystone detail is missing. Any sugestions? > >Seth Lakin >Chesterton IN > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:39:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 1374 Question for the Pittsburgh area folks. >From 1941-1946 I lived on Scotia Street in Ingram, not 200 feet from a PRR tunnel entrance. We kids spent many hours sitting on the cut embankment watching trains blast out of the tunnel, or disappear into the tunnel, and feeling the earth rumble. This summer I decided to get a photo of the tunnel entrance. When I got there, the entrance had been covered by a new portal. There were lights strung in the tunnel, men working in there, and re-bar forms that suggested a roadway was about to be poured. So, I went up over the hill to photograph the other entrance and found that it had been buried under tons of earth and stone that had been dumped into the cut. What is going on??? Is the tunnel going to be a storage area, or are they eventually going to open the other end again??? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Bowser K4 - This could cause a stir! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 09:46:14 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1026 On 10/9/97 8:56 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >I think I started the Bowser K4 Tender issue; so I suppose I should >respond. >The tender B supplies did run on some K4s; but it was very rare. I too have >seen fotos of it, but not very many. Since I have a photo of #1361 with a "Bowser style" tender, and since #1361 ran on the Northern Central, guess what number I'm going to use on my Bowser? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 09:55:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1672 On 10/9/97 9:39 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr. (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: >From 1941-1946 I lived on Scotia Street in Ingram, not 200 feet from a PRR >tunnel entrance. We kids spent many hours sitting on the cut embankment >watching trains blast out of the tunnel, or disappear into the tunnel, and >feeling the earth rumble. > >This summer I decided to get a photo of the tunnel entrance. When I got >there, >the entrance had been covered by a new portal. There were lights strung >in the >tunnel, men working in there, and re-bar forms that suggested a roadway was >about to be poured. So, I went up over the hill to photograph the other >entrance and found that it had been buried under tons of earth and stone >that >had been dumped into the cut. > >What is going on??? Is the tunnel going to be a storage area, or are they >eventually going to open the other end again??? The government is planning to move the alien bodies there from Area 51. (Sorry, that's way too TAN for this list. And shame on me, being the listmaster and all!) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:23:14 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: PRR Concrete overpass Content-Length: 1183 At 09:34 AM 10/9/97 -0400, Drew McGhee wrote: >At 10:53 AM 10/8/97 +0000, LAKINSA@AXP.CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU wrote: >>I am trying to model a PRR concrete overpass bridge with the keystone >>on each end of the bridge. The problem that I am running in to is getting >>the keystone into my mold. I have the mold made for the bridge itself, but >>the krystone detail is missing. Any sugestions? >> >>Seth Lakin >>Chesterton IN You could try a tie - tack or use a tail sign from a tomar kit as the master. A friend of mine uses a brass star from boy scounts in all of his cast bridges (in G scale). Another thought is someone used to make etched keystone number boards - they had blank ones as well. Used as a master or set in the plaster, they should be about the right size. Good luck ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 10:25:35 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Flyover at South Fork Content-Length: 2597 Greetings to Jerry and the group, Jerry, you didn't mention the page the photo was on. I picked up a copy of _Triumph 1..._ during Railfest. Looked through it twice and couldn't find a photo of the abutments you mentioned. Now the May 1981 issue of _Rails Northeast_ has a B&W photo on page 27 of the abutments that were part of the jump over. According to the caption the jump over bridge was built in1905. It was removed in the early 60s as part of the four lane US Route 219 construction project. The September 1995 issue of _Railpace_ also mentions the jump over on page 29. The article about the 'West Slope' confirms the _Rails Northeast_ information. I checked other books I have last night and couldn't find any photo of the jump over when the bridge was still in place. What I did notice doing a quick look at the other books I have was other than for the aerial views many of the other photos in the book have appeared before in magazine articles and books. I'll keep looking. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 03:58 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >I ask this question for Bill Lewis (president, NCC, PRRTHS) who is still >living in the analog world... > >South Fork, Pa., had a flyover so empty coal hoppers could get up and >over the busy mainline without disturbing traffic. There is a track chart >in the new "Triumph 1" book and a recent photo. The photo shows only the >stone bridge abutments. > >Anyone know what kind of bridge was there? > >Can anyone cite a source of a photo? > >Probably either a steel girder or a steel truss. Thanks. > > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:05:49 -0400 From: "C. Conan Evans" Subject: Re: Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD Content-Length: 1315 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Hi Gang, > > I am planning to drive down to Maryland this > weekend to attend a show at the Maryland > State Fairgrounds in Timonium; and was > wondering if any others in the group > planned on attending. They advertise 680 > individual vendors and dealers. I have never > been to one of these shows before and I'm > looking forward to the experience. The Timonium show is tops. This show is probably the premier scale show in the Mid-Atlantic area. I have been to both this one and the one at Fort Washington, PA (both are hosted by Howard Zane's group) and the Timonium one shines. The show occupies the Cow Palace on the Maryland State Fair grounds. It is a big affair. And oh yea, you can easily blow some big $$$. Conan Evans P.S. I can't make this one. In less then a month, I am getting married and from now on, events like the Scale show may become "Off Limits". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:56:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Flyover at South Fork Content-Length: 1206 > My and I grew up in the South Fork / Summerhill area. The old South Fork > Bridge had 2 sections. On the rail side the bridge was made of stone and > concrete with stone risers. And on the creek side it was a steel bridge. > Back in the mid to early 80's they painted the bridge a light blue. About 5 > years age the bridge was still used for vehicle traffic. But the bridge has > since been removed and replaced with a new higher span further up the road. > Wrong bridge. That was the bridge that, among other things, the Southern Cambria interurban used to enter South Fork, if I recall. The bridge mentioned previously in the thread was a flyover for trains headed from the branch to the main. (The new road bridge, BTW, like so many other bridges replaced recently, has no character) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: PRR tunnel (fwd) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:56:31 EDT Content-Length: 2339 > >From 1941-1946 I lived on Scotia Street in Ingram, not 200 feet from a PRR > tunnel entrance. We kids spent many hours sitting on the cut embankment > watching trains blast out of the tunnel, or disappear into the tunnel, and > feeling the earth rumble. > > This summer I decided to get a photo of the tunnel entrance. When I got > there, the entrance had been covered by a new portal. There were lights > strung in the > tunnel, men working in there, and re-bar forms that suggested a roadway was > about to be poured. So, I went up over the hill to photograph the other > entrance and found that it had been buried under tons of earth and stone that > had been dumped into the cut. Don, could you provide some more detail about where this tunnel is, geographically, in Pittsburgh? (I'm not sure offhand where Ingram is). I can say this much: In the 1980s the Panhandle mainline tunnel became sufficiently unstable that Conrail shifted its trains off the Panhandle "main" and onto the Scully Branch (which rejoins the main at WAGNER tower in Crafton, SW side of Pgh). The Panhandle tunnel is south of the Ohio and slightly west of downtown. The Panhandle main tunnel was devoid of tracks, ballast intact, no new portals, in 1994 when I found it. I heard rumors of its use, no more. I should say this is the _2nd_ tunnel on the Panhandle main, counting out from Pittsburgh Union Station - the 1st being right _at_ the station and in use for the last decade plus for trolleys etc. I hear the Scully Branch has a tunnel, too, which I've not seen. The Port Perry Branch had a tunnel. The branch begins at (former) PERRY tower on the S side of the Monongahela, crosses the Mon, thru the tunnel, to the PRR main line. THat tunnel was to have been daylighted (i.e., its top blown off) as part of the double-stack project. Have never been there to photograph it; don't know its status. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New book From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 11:59:51 -0400 Content-Length: 945 Just returned from my hobby shop with a new PRR book. Its cleverly titled "Pennsylvania Railroad". Its the first in what Andover Junction Publishers and Motorbooks International claim will be a series called Railroad Color History. Each book in the series will be a different RR. Obviously they elected to start with the best! It has over 100 fotos, most in color and cost me only $16. While its not a spectacular modelling reference, it is certainly worth the price. The authors are Mike Schafer and Brian Solomon. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:04:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 1108 > This summer I decided to get a photo of the tunnel entrance. When I got there, > the entrance had been covered by a new portal. There were lights strung in the > tunnel, men working in there, and re-bar forms that suggested a roadway was > about to be poured. So, I went up over the hill to photograph the other > entrance and found that it had been buried under tons of earth and stone that > had been dumped into the cut. > > What is going on??? Is the tunnel going to be a storage area, or are they > eventually going to open the other end again??? Airport Busway. Yay. And the best part is, the bridge they were going to build into downtown, the most useful part, has been axed. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:10:43 -0700 From: John Riedell Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 689 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > Perhaps this train can be called the "New Congressional" > > We could take capitol hill's occupants, put them in the train, > fire her off and prove that their is life on Mars! > > (Mars light not included) I notice that you did not say "intelligent life" :-) jawn ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:15:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Superdetailing Content-Length: 1120 The PRRT&HS sent me a couple of reprints on superdetailing PRR locomotives. Both are sort of generic, but both emphasize the I-1, so those of you who are building I-1 engines and want to superdetail them should try to get copies if you don't already have them. One is by Loren Butts in Model Railroad Craftsman, a two parter in Dec 1958, pp. 26-31 and Jan 1959, pp. 23-25, issues. The reprint I really like is by Lynn Wescott in Model Trains, Jan 1961, pp. 14-43. Lots of tips in this one about making brackets out of hammered brass wire, and diagrams of where some of the major piping goes. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 1091 In a message dated 97-10-09 11:26:57 EDT, you write: << The government is planning to move the alien bodies there from Area 51. (Sorry, that's way too TAN for this list. And shame on me, being the listmaster and all!) >> You're right Jerry. it is too off subject for this list. I used to cover Wright-Patterson Air Force Base for the Xenia Daily Gazette. The Roswell aliens weren't at Area 51, just their craft. Everyone in Dayton knows the frozen alien bodies are in the USAF Foreign Technology Division's Hanger 29 at Wright-Patterson. This has nothing to do with the PRR. he NYC/Big Four and Erie corridor between Dayton and Springfield runs right throught the base. ;-) Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:56:35 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 1091 In a message dated 97-10-09 11:26:57 EDT, you write: << The government is planning to move the alien bodies there from Area 51. (Sorry, that's way too TAN for this list. And shame on me, being the listmaster and all!) >> You're right Jerry. it is too off subject for this list. I used to cover Wright-Patterson Air Force Base for the Xenia Daily Gazette. The Roswell aliens weren't at Area 51, just their craft. Everyone in Dayton knows the frozen alien bodies are in the USAF Foreign Technology Division's Hanger 29 at Wright-Patterson. This has nothing to do with the PRR. he NYC/Big Four and Erie corridor between Dayton and Springfield runs right throught the base. ;-) Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:44:03 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Bowser question? Content-Length: 1027 Hi to all, I am still working on my first Bowser steam kit--a K-4. I had a question on Bowser and their tenders. Are all their tenders cast metal tenders or are some of the tenders plastic? I realize that PRR used a large number of different tenders and was wanting to locate some different one that might not require a major kitbash on them. Are any available from a brass company as seperate items? and is it worth the price for the brass tender (if available)? Just some curious questions from someone to young to even remember the PRR at all. Thanks for all help. Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:01:32 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Trip Tips Content-Length: 847 Aloha, To all that sent me info about my trip destinations, Thanks. One more piece of information that would be helpful is which side of the train should I have for the best views. I may not have a choice as the CO administrator is the one booking the trip and I don't receive the tickets until Oct. 16, for a rail journey from Los Angeles to British Vancouver Canada.. I know this may be too late to change if it's the lessor side. Again Thanks Eric ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:54:33 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR Concrete overpass Content-Length: 1135 In a message dated 97-10-09 12:36:23 EDT, rswebber@concentric.net (Bob Webber) writes: << >At 10:53 AM 10/8/97 +0000, LAKINSA@AXP.CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU wrote: >>I am trying to model a PRR concrete overpass bridge with the keystone >>on each end of the bridge. The problem that I am running in to is getting >>the keystone into my mold. I have the mold made for the bridge itself, but >>the krystone detail is missing. Any sugestions? >> >>Seth Lakin >>Chesterton IN >> I would cast the Keystone separately and either attache it when the mold was still wet to a dry bridge or use ACC to glue the keystone to the bridge. If you do the latter seal the material first. ACC at time does not work well on porous material. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:07:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 2113 In a message dated 97-10-09 11:27:04 EDT, britton@pit-magnus.com writes: << From 1941-1946 I lived on Scotia Street in Ingram, not 200 feet from a PRR >tunnel entrance. We kids spent many hours sitting on the cut embankment >watching trains blast out of the tunnel, or disappear into the tunnel, and >feeling the earth rumble. > >This summer I decided to get a photo of the tunnel entrance. When I got >there, >the entrance had been covered by a new portal. There were lights strung >in the >tunnel, men working in there, and re-bar forms that suggested a roadway was >about to be poured. So, I went up over the hill to photograph the other >entrance and found that it had been buried under tons of earth and stone >that >had been dumped into the cut. > >What is going on??? Is the tunnel going to be a storage area, or are they >eventually going to open the other end again??? The government is planning to move the alien bodies there from Area 51. >> Close but no cigar, Jerry. THis is the Corliss Tunnel. It is being retrofitted to serve as part of the Port Authoriy of Allegheny County's new busway to Greater Pittsburgh International Airport. The busway will tie into the extising busway near Station Square. Route will be Panhandle Bridge north leg of Monon wye follow the path of the Panhandle westbound main along side the now CR Pittsburgh branch at a point near the West end circle the busway will cross (over or under not sure which) the CR tracks and pass through Corliss Tunnel. It will follow what was the Panhandle main to Carngie where it will diverge onto a new ROW to the old Montour ROW and eventually to the Airport. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:09:16 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 1882 >>What is going on??? Is the tunnel going to be a storage area, or are they >>eventually going to open the other end again??? > >The government is planning to move the alien bodies there from Area 51. > >(Sorry, that's way too TAN for this list. And shame on me, being the >listmaster and all!) > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator ****** Actually the answer is not nearly so sinister as all that - unless you happen to own airline stock. You may recall that, back in the early 70s, the New York Central (a progressive regional road that, sadly, went bankrupt and was absorbed into PRR) worked in cooperation with the DOT to exparament on ultra-high speed trains. They took an RDC car, fitted it with a shovel nose and mounted a pair of jet engines off a B-52 on the roof. This exparamental lashup hit speeds of well over 100 MPH and was instrumental in some of the high speed trains in use today. It seems DOT is at it again. Working with Amtrak and NASA, they are exparamenting on using cold war surplus ICBMs to power a new generation of ultra ultra high speed trains. The tunnel project mentioned earlier is an underground launching silo for these new ultra ultra high speed trains (UUHST). If the concept is successful, the technology will be adapted to departures from underground terminals like Penn Station. The Future is upon us! Run for your lives! Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:17:19 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: NOVATECH CROOKS (was HO Pennsy diesel list updated) Content-Length: 1129 I have previously posted my experience with Nova Tech. Let us just say it is 8 months since I placed an order. They shipped half of the order in May. I canceled the remained of the Order. After calling the Canadian Embassy in Washington, I finally received a refund on the canceled portion of the order in late August. I have yet to receive a refund on the returned items. The shells were not worth the cost of mailing them. Please report your problems to the model mags. Especially MR. If they receive enough complaints they will stop taking ads. If there are enough problems, we may want to ask the Attorney Generals of our home states to file suit for consumer fraud or contact the Postal service for mail fraud. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:53:39 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: K-4s and HO K-4s Content-Length: 1919 Good evening or good morning...(depending on when you get this) It was good to hear about 1361....will be glad it will be running again next year. Heck by then maybe the'll have enough knowledge and new foundry stuff to be able to build a NEW K-4s If you wanted a engine that could take anything a fantrip could dish out though...i'd like to see some group build a new Q-2...almost 8,000 horsepower in steam can haul just about anything. But it would also be nice to see a K-4 double header too...well enough wishful thinking. I have three HO k-4s...one is straight Bowser..numbered 3848..very similar to one that ran on the NC and has the Bowser type tender... another is a Bowser/Bachmann hybrid...Bowser mech/Bachmann boiler.. has the Bachmann tender...this represents no. 830 before it went to New Jersey and its tender was changed...(note than in the book "The Northern Central Ry." that it has one type there and in "Pennsy A to T "it has one that has a rounded coal bunker). And my other one is no.5475?the one Bachmann put out also. the mech crapped out on me so that one will get a Bowser mech too (some day)..it also will have the Bachmann tender but will be renumbered also for a engine that was on the NC.... Is it me or were a lot of the last ones that ran in NJ shipped up there from Baltimore? both 1361 and 830 both ran in Maryland and NJ. Well gotta go....til later folks. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 17:55:50 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 1795 Robert A. Boyd wrote: >> You may recall that, back in the early 70s, the New York Central (a > progressive regional road that, sadly, went bankrupt and was absorbed into > PRR) worked in cooperation with the DOT to exparament on ultra-high speed > trains. > > They took an RDC car, fitted it with a shovel nose and mounted a pair of > jet engines off a B-52 on the roof. This exparamental lashup hit speeds > of well over 100 MPH and was instrumental in some of the high speed trains > in use today. > > It seems DOT is at it again. Working with Amtrak and NASA, they are > exparamenting on using cold war surplus ICBMs to power a new generation of > ultra ultra high speed trains. > > The tunnel project mentioned earlier is an underground launching silo for > these new ultra ultra high speed trains (UUHST). If the concept is > successful, the technology will be adapted to departures from underground > terminals like Penn Station. > ----------------------------------- Known as project Roadrunner, the tests will include accelerating the test train into the newly rebuilt tunnel bore toward the filled-in, far end of the tunnel. Not to worry, however, the exit portal of the tunnel has been painted on the inside of the blind end of the tunnel, providing a virtual means of egress for the test train. Steve Bartlett Former Employee, Defunct Regional (!) Railroad ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:15:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 1381 > THis is the Corliss Tunnel. It is being retrofitted to serve as part of the > Port Authoriy of Allegheny County's new busway to Greater Pittsburgh > International Airport. The busway will tie into the extising busway near > Station Square. Route will be Panhandle Bridge north leg of Monon wye follow > the path of the Panhandle westbound main along side the now CR Pittsburgh > branch at a point near the West end circle the busway will cross (over or > under not sure which) the CR tracks and pass through Corliss Tunnel. It will > follow what was the Panhandle main to Carngie where it will diverge onto a > new ROW to the old Montour ROW and eventually to the Airport. I've never heard anything other than the street tunnel off Carson called the "Corliss Tunnel" and all of the stories about that one called it something else. Forget what. Also, current plan calls for the busway to end at West End Circle and the buses to run down Carson. No bridge foo. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Railfest97 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 18:36:20 -0400 Content-Length: 1175 Jerry, I just viewed your foto tour of Alootna on KC. I'm very jealous!! In 829 days my son's last tuition bill gets paid and I plan to join you on the next outing. (That would be Railfest 2001) Unfortunatly by then MO tower, the position lights, and Lord knows what else will be gone forever :-(( Now to fill in the blanks. The RPO is class BM70m and the baggage car is a B60 (what else?). I believe the tender in the picture of K4 #1361 is neither a 110P84 nor the Bowser tender. It does indeed have the deep side sills of the Bowser L1 tender, but it also appears to have straight sided coal bin extentions. All of the tenders we have discussed have sloped extentions. Sorry. I'm just getting even with you for making me so jealous ;-) regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:53:07 -0400 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: tunnel Content-Length: 920 At 09:55 AM 10/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >On 10/9/97 9:39 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr. (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: >snip> >>What is going on??? Is the tunnel going to be a storage area, or are they >>eventually going to open the other end again??? > >The government is planning to move the alien bodies there from Area 51. > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Jerry, how about a date, would love to be there to see those aliens. Heck I'll bet they are brunswick green!!!!!!! Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 20:05:49 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 2372 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >> You may recall that, back in the early 70s, the New York Central (a > > progressive regional road that, sadly, went bankrupt and was absorbed into > > PRR) worked in cooperation with the DOT to exparament on ultra-high speed > > trains. > > > > They took an RDC car, fitted it with a shovel nose and mounted a pair of > > jet engines off a B-52 on the roof. This exparamental lashup hit speeds > > of well over 100 MPH and was instrumental in some of the high speed trains > > in use today. > > > > It seems DOT is at it again. Working with Amtrak and NASA, they are > > exparamenting on using cold war surplus ICBMs to power a new generation of > > ultra ultra high speed trains. > > > > The tunnel project mentioned earlier is an underground launching silo for > > these new ultra ultra high speed trains (UUHST). If the concept is > > successful, the technology will be adapted to departures from underground > > terminals like Penn Station. > > > ----------------------------------- > > Known as project Roadrunner, the tests will include accelerating the > test train into the newly rebuilt tunnel bore toward the filled-in, far > end of the tunnel. Not to worry, however, the exit portal of the tunnel > has been painted on the inside of the blind end of the tunnel, providing > a virtual means of egress for the test train. > > Steve Bartlett > Former Employee, Defunct Regional (!) Railroad > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Considerable expense will be avoided since there will be no need for bridges on the new line, as long as train crews don't look down... ok, shoot me now... CB -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:14:48 -0400 Content-Length: 2724 Perhaps this train can be called the "New Congressional" We could take capitol hill's occupants, put them in the train, fire her off and prove that their is life on Mars! (Mars light not included) Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 5:55 PM > > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > >> You may recall that, back in the early 70s, the New York Central (a > > progressive regional road that, sadly, went bankrupt and was absorbed into > > PRR) worked in cooperation with the DOT to exparament on ultra-high speed > > trains. > > > > They took an RDC car, fitted it with a shovel nose and mounted a pair of > > jet engines off a B-52 on the roof. This exparamental lashup hit speeds > > of well over 100 MPH and was instrumental in some of the high speed trains > > in use today. > > > > It seems DOT is at it again. Working with Amtrak and NASA, they are > > exparamenting on using cold war surplus ICBMs to power a new generation of > > ultra ultra high speed trains. > > > > The tunnel project mentioned earlier is an underground launching silo for > > these new ultra ultra high speed trains (UUHST). If the concept is > > successful, the technology will be adapted to departures from underground > > terminals like Penn Station. > > > ----------------------------------- > > Known as project Roadrunner, the tests will include accelerating the > test train into the newly rebuilt tunnel bore toward the filled-in, far > end of the tunnel. Not to worry, however, the exit portal of the tunnel > has been painted on the inside of the blind end of the tunnel, providing > a virtual means of egress for the test train. > > Steve Bartlett > Former Employee, Defunct Regional (!) Railroad > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Pennsy Journal Index Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 21:43:34 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 766 Thanks to "PRR-Talker" Andy C., there is now an index of Pennsy Journal at "Keystone Crossings", save for three issues. (Maybe you can help?) Follow the Library link. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:52:03 -0400 From: Skram Subject: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 685 I was paging thought Pennsy Power 2 last night and started thinking WHY did the PRR get into a position as to need a merger with the NYC? Since my current stockpile of information is limited I'm curious what the list has to say.(I hope I haven't opened another DGLE discussion ! ) Interested, Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:20:27 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re- Re- inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 1186 > Hello... > > Sheesh...I can see that if it got up to top speed before getting out > of the Hudson river tunnels it would launch itself in orbit coming > out of the tunnel,what with its grade changes and all... > > Hmmm maybe this is some sort of new Horseshoe curve bypass project. > just fire that sucker from Altoona to Gallitzin! > No Grades,No Clearances....No Problem! POW!....clunk... > > H.Mummert ****** Well, that would make it a species of intermodal service, wouldn't it? Might want to look into the regulatory aspects here. Of course, it seems that, if the booster burned out before it launched, it would be an unpowered vehicle, and exempt from FAA regulation just like a hang glider. Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:31:23 -0700 From: John Riedell Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 595 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > Intelligence has nothing to do with congress > and should not be used in the same sentence. > > Look what a wonderful help they were to the railroad industry! Oh, I agree 100%. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:35:41 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: new books from Motor Publishing Content-Length: 1078 Andy Miller writes, >Just returned from my hobby shop with a new PRR book. Its cleverly titled >"Pennsylvania Railroad". Its the first in what Andover Junction Publishers >and Motorbooks International claim will be a series called Railroad Color >History. Each book in the series will be a different RR. Obviously they >elected to start with the best! I had a recent talk with Joe Welsh, who wrote New York To Florida By Streamliner (which I heartily recommend) and he states that he and Mike Schafer also have a book entitled "Classic Streamliners" due out shortly from Motor Books. If his Florida book is any indication, this will be a goodie. Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:04:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Re: Bowser question? Content-Length: 1771 In a message dated 97-10-09 22:17:43 EDT, you write: << I am still working on my first Bowser steam kit--a K-4. I had a question on Bowser and their tenders. Are all their tenders cast metal tenders or are some of the tenders plastic? I realize that PRR used a large number of different tenders and was wanting to locate some different one that might not require a major kitbash on them. Are any available from a brass company as seperate items? and is it worth the price for the brass tender (if available)? Just some curious questions from someone to young to even remember the PRR at all. Thanks for all help. >> Having never built a Bowser, I can only comment on the brass issue. Yes, separate tenders are available. I have been looking for a K-4 tender as well, a 110P75 which is the more common tender for the K-4. You can have a look at what's available on-line at the Peach Creek Site: http://members.aol.com/peachcreek/peachcreek/ peachmr.htm. Click on: Catalog Roundhouse; Click on: Railworks-Stall#24; then scroll down to 'HO Scale- Future Releases. Here you will find the tenders listed, they ain't cheap! But, Railworks makes a fine product. I'm off to the Timonium show this weekend and I will be looking for any K-4 tenders available. I'll pass along any info I can find when I return home. Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 23:30:30 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Re- Re- inquiring minds want to know Content-Length: 1497 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > Sheesh...I can see that if it got up to top speed before getting out > > of the Hudson river tunnels it would launch itself in orbit coming > > out of the tunnel,what with its grade changes and all... > > > > Hmmm maybe this is some sort of new Horseshoe curve bypass project. > > just fire that sucker from Altoona to Gallitzin! > > No Grades,No Clearances....No Problem! POW!....clunk... > > > > H.Mummert > > ****** > > Well, that would make it a species of intermodal service, wouldn't it? > Might want to look into the regulatory aspects here. Of course, it seems > that, if the booster burned out before it launched, it would be an > unpowered vehicle, and exempt from FAA regulation just like a hang glider. > > Bob > Those Classic Trains > It would be a REAL "Bullet" Train. BTW, the jet-powered RDC was tested in the 1960's. And, off this thread, won't there still be an MO Tower on the defunct, regional railroad? Or is it gone, too? Steve Bartlett SPF & Former Regional Railroad Employe ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:37:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 4300 > I was paging thought Pennsy Power 2 last night and started thinking WHY > did the PRR get into a position as to need a merger with the NYC? Since > my current stockpile of information is limited I'm curious what the list > has to say.(I hope I haven't opened another DGLE discussion ! ) I will preface this by saying this is a combination of my beliefs, what I've read in "Wreck of the Penn Central", "Hell of a Way to Run a Railroad" and one other book whose title I have forgotten, and discussions with a guy involved in researching one of those books. The state of railroading, especially railroading in the heavily urbanized northeastern US, had been in a decline since before World War 2. A good part was due to the depression but as things recovered just before the start of the (American involvement in) the war, business did not come back to the railroads comparably to its increase elsewhere. By this I actually mean passenger traffic which at the time was a much greater portion of business... Wartime brought greatly increased traffic which heavily taxed the facilties of the railroads, rendering a lot of stuff worn out and in need of replacement by war's end. During the war, when there was (at least some) money materials weren't available. After the war, when they were, the business again dropped off, especially passenger business, and the worn out equipment cost more to maintain, worsening the picture. Between the end of the war and the PRR/NYC merger, the things which helped push the Pennsy toward the edge were increasing taxes on their facilities especially around the larger, older cities where the land was now worth much more; less return on these facilities as passenger traffic became unprofitable, heavy industry moved out of center city areas; and the inability of railroads to easily unburden themselves of unprofitable lines and passenger services. Looking for economies of scale, the Pennsy sought a merger partner; Rather than combine with the N&W, in which they heavily owned stock (forming a railroad serving more territory) they bet that merging with a railroad serving similar territory would lead to savings due to reduced competition and elimination of duplicate services. It might have worked, more likely at least worked better, and possibly worked long enough for deregulation to come (though without the PC bankruptcy, who's to say if the other bankrupt northeast roads would have been enough to bring it) if either railroad had acquired the other outright or at least been given a ruling hand. As it was the people had differing philosophies and trying to follow different parts of each (and disagreements between different people) didn't help things. Duplicate facilties and services were not quickly eliminated or sometimes not at all. Routing problems resulted from too many facilities in certain areas being just "Penn Central yards" No preliminary work was done on a unified computer system before the day a full merger was effected; Had the merger been in name only and the railroads been given time to consolidate perhaps this at least would not have been so bad. No one was really "running the railroad", and everything to delivery times to motive power assignments languished, resulting in diesels deep in electrified territory, loads which were lost, and inevitably irate and also "former" customers. You can only sell off your blood until you no longer have enough to walk yourself anywhere to sell it, and the PC sold off nearly everything it could before the barkruptcy in June of 1970. After that, they tried to get things back on track, but nothing really happened until Conrail, and until deregulation Conrail wasn't profitable, either.... So it might have happened either way. But I'd love to see what the fruits of a PRR takeover of the N&W would have yielded. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:34:20 -0400 From: Jim Hebner Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 1678 My slant is a bit more basic - look at what Conrail has done to become lean and profittable, then look at the regulatory climate of the PRR era. It was all but impossible to abandon routes or service. While the PRR/NYC merger was bungeled, (I think the only thing they did right was merging the numbering systems) collapse of railroading in the northeast was going to happen. When you add this factor with what Derrick J Brashear wrote earlier, and what others surely will add, the failure of railroading in the northeast becomes clearer. Jim Hebner Skram wrote: > > I was paging thought Pennsy Power 2 last night and started thinking WHY > did the PRR get into a position as to need a merger with the NYC? Since > my current stockpile of information is limited I'm curious what the list > has to say.(I hope I haven't opened another DGLE discussion ! ) > Interested, > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know (fwd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 9:49:04 EDT Content-Length: 1227 > > Known as project Roadrunner, the tests will include accelerating the > > test train into the newly rebuilt tunnel bore toward the filled-in, far > > end of the tunnel. Not to worry, however, the exit portal of the tunnel > > has been painted on the inside of the blind end of the tunnel, providing > > a virtual means of egress for the test train. > Considerable expense will be avoided since there will be no need for > bridges on the new line, as long as train crews don't look down... What do you mean, newly rebuilt tunnel. No tunnel is needed. One merely paints the hillside black, in an inverted "U" shape. Then any train or trolley painted tuscan red and bearing a Roadrunner on the nose can enter immediately. Only buses and trucks painted green [not DGLE] with a coyote on the nose encounter problems. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:11:42 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 1224 In message <343D8A40.D66823@netreach.net> Skram writes: > I was paging thought Pennsy Power 2 last night and started thinking WHY > did the PRR get into a position as to need a merger with the NYC? There was an interview article in a recent Keystone in which the interviewee (don't have a name or issue - everything is at home) stated that in his opinion the Pennsy might have survived if it had not tried to dieselize all at once - that the cost of purchasing all those diesels was a contributing factor. In his opinion (if I am remembering this correctly) if the PRR had continued to run steam on Lines West and used diesels on the mountainous terrain east, things might have been different. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: Port Perry tunnel (fwd) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:13:41 EDT Content-Length: 2105 > The Port Perry tunnel was unusual, in that it once had three tracks > running through it -- two tracks so that mineral trains and other trains with > cars that fit within its restrictive clearances could pass each other > within the tunnel, and a third track between them, so that trains with cars > higher than the tunnel's "normal" clearance could pass through the center of > the tunnel and still fit. Use of the center track, of course, precluded > another train going through simultaneously. While he doesn't mention the > Port Perry tunnel by name, John Armstrong gives an example of this type of > situation in his book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation". I did not know this. Interestingly, the Pgh. Div. maps I've borrowed, and which will soon show up on my web site, show only 2 tracks in the tunnel. > Anyone know > of any other tunnel trackage arrangements such as this, on the PRR? Sure, in a sense. The B&P tunnels on the SW side of Baltimore. There's a S/B and N/B track, but the N/B track splits into a gauntlet which allows for greater vertical and horizontal clearance. > This was in steam and possible early-diesel days, and I imagine the > tunnel was eventually single-tracked with the advent of the larger-dimensioned > cars of the sixties. It was definitely single track by the time I got there, 1984 or 1985. One of the tracks across the Mon bridge was gone. I never made it to the tunnel, but I ASSume that the single track was moved to tunnel center. > By the way, does anyone know if "Pennsy in the Steel City" is still > available? I really need to buy this book! Yes. Write the PRRTHS main office, address on my or Jerry's pages. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:40:14 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 1828 At 09:11 AM 10/10/97 -0500, Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: >In message <343D8A40.D66823@netreach.net> Skram writes: >> I was paging thought Pennsy Power 2 last night and started thinking WHY >> did the PRR get into a position as to need a merger with the NYC? > >opinion >the Pennsy might have survived if it had not tried to dieselize all at once - Not a bad start - but add to that: did not try to dieselize all at once, and did not try every model of every manufacturer. If they had stayed with, say EMD (Like N&W almost did at beginning) things might have been different. The problem is, PRR tried to stay with steam too long, with the wrong equipment. You could say that the decline started in the 30s - when management went only for 4-8-2s, more pacifics and decapods. If they had standardized (they were the standard rr of the world then, right?) on a few models, done well (again look at the N&W), they wouldn't have gone through some of the expensive test programs that drained the treasury. Say a N&W J 4-8-4 (tested on the PRR), a J-1 2-10-4, and a N&W A would have made a tremendous difference - and they wouldn't have had to go into diesels as early as they did (and thereby incurr all of the problems with many different models & manuf.). Bottom line is, had they maintained their place as the standard RR of the world - and standardized on a few models, things might have been very different. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 10 Oct 97 11:05:06 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: Port Perry tunnel (fwd) Content-Length: 3120 The source of my information was also a PRR trackage map, either part of a set sold separately by Bob Reid, or published by him in Rails Northeast. I will try and dig them out and give you the year reference, if you'd like. Maybe the center track was retired fairly early in the game, as even IT wouldn't provide enough clearance for modern steel cars, and the floor of the tunnel was lowered, thus eliminating the need for the center track. Maybe someone else on the list will know. And thanks for the info on the book. I will write, right away. Mark D Bej wrote: >> The Port Perry tunnel was unusual, in that it once had three tracks >> running through it -- two tracks so that mineral trains and other trains with >> cars that fit within its restrictive clearances could pass each other >> within the tunnel, and a third track between them, so that trains with cars >> higher than the tunnel's "normal" clearance could pass through the center of >> the tunnel and still fit. Use of the center track, of course, precluded >> another train going through simultaneously. While he doesn't mention the >> Port Perry tunnel by name, John Armstrong gives an example of this type of >> situation in his book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation". > >I did not know this. Interestingly, the Pgh. Div. maps I've borrowed, and >which will soon show up on my web site, show only 2 tracks in the tunnel. > >> Anyone know >> of any other tunnel trackage arrangements such as this, on the PRR? > >Sure, in a sense. The B&P tunnels on the SW side of Baltimore. There's a >S/B and N/B track, but the N/B track splits into a gauntlet which allows >for greater vertical and horizontal clearance. > > >> This was in steam and possible early-diesel days, and I imagine the >> tunnel was eventually single-tracked with the advent of the larger-dimensioned >> cars of the sixties. > >It was definitely single track by the time I got there, 1984 or 1985. One >of the tracks across the Mon bridge was gone. I never made it to the >tunnel, but I ASSume that the single track was moved to tunnel center. > > >> By the way, does anyone know if "Pennsy in the Steel City" is still >> available? I really need to buy this book! > >Yes. Write the PRRTHS main office, address on my or Jerry's pages. > >-- >Mark > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Request: PRR system map Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:18:37 EDT Content-Length: 690 Gents: I would like to get a good PRR system map to scan in. I would _borrow_ this map from you, unless you have access to a scanner and could scan it for me. My preference would be for a pre-WW II map, one that shows the PRR in as large a state as possible. Anybody have such an animal? -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jack Savidge" Subject: PRR - Conrail History 1929-1938 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:12:27 -0700 Content-Length: 825 I'm new to your forum and am business history writer trying to understand WHY the railroads did NOT advance into the airline or bus business. They, PRR-NY Central and Santa Fe, began an effort in 1929 but went no farther through the mid-late '30's. If there are any railroad historians who would like to converse about this topic, I would really appreciate hearing from you. Thanks, Jack Savidge E-Mail: jacksavidge@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jack Savidge" Subject: PRR - Conrail History 1929-1938 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:12:27 -0700 Content-Length: 825 I'm new to your forum and am business history writer trying to understand WHY the railroads did NOT advance into the airline or bus business. They, PRR-NY Central and Santa Fe, began an effort in 1929 but went no farther through the mid-late '30's. If there are any railroad historians who would like to converse about this topic, I would really appreciate hearing from you. Thanks, Jack Savidge E-Mail: jacksavidge@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:56:03 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: Amtrak adds a Cornwells Heights stop for 2 trains Content-Length: 1521 Hello All; Amtrak said yesterday that it would start service to Cornwells Heights, Bucks County, on Clocker commuter trains that run between Philadelphia and New York, and on Keystone trains between Harrisburg and New York. Service to the new stop will begin Oct. 26, the railroad said.{ Septa is finishing a 1000 car parking lot at this station.} The Keystone trains also will stop more often at Coatesville, Chester County, and Mount Joy, Lancaster County. Among other changes in its Northeast Corridor service, Amtrak said it would provide later evening Metroliner service from Philadelphia to New York and Washington, and more New York-to-Washington trains on Sundays. -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:38:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 4322 In a message dated 97-10-10 11:01:56 EDT, rswebber@concentric.net writes: << >In message <343D8A40.D66823@netreach.net> Skram writes: >> I was paging thought Pennsy Power 2 last night and started thinking WHY >> did the PRR get into a position as to need a merger with the NYC? > >opinion >the Pennsy might have survived if it had not tried to dieselize all at once - Not a bad start - but add to that: did not try to dieselize all at once, and did not try every model of every manufacturer. If they had stayed with, say EMD (Like N&W almost did at beginning) things might have been different. The problem is, PRR tried to stay with steam too long, with the wrong equipment. You could say that the decline started in the 30s - when management went only for 4-8-2s, more pacifics and decapods. If they had standardized (they were the standard rr of the world then, right?) on a few models, done well (again look at the N&W), they wouldn't have gone through some of the expensive test programs that drained the treasury. Say a N&W J 4-8-4 (tested on the PRR), a J-1 2-10-4, and a N&W A would have made a tremendous difference - and they wouldn't have had to go into diesels as early as they did (and thereby incurr all of the problems with many different models & manuf.). Bottom line is, had they maintained their place as the standard RR of the world - and standardized on a few models, things might have been very different. >> The decline of the PRR can be attributed to its size. During the depression and WWII the PRR kept it workforce nearly intact. Yes there were some layoffs but remember at a time when cash was scarce the PRR undertook the electrification of the mainline east of Harrisburg. One of the reasons for the timing of this project was to keep as many employees working as possible. As a result of this project, the X31, X32, X33, assorted flat car and gon building projects, the PRR proved employment for the vast majority of it employees and incurred vast amounts of debt particularly 25 and 30 year bonds. Dieselization was forced on the PRR in some areas. Pittsburgh, actually Allegheny County, the Smokey City, enacted the first air pollution regulations in the country in 1948. These regulations included standards for steam locomotives. The County Air Pollution Board assigned inspectors to the rail lines with smoke plates. If the smoke from a locomotive exceeded the allowable limits the railroad was fined. The result was the dieselization of the five divisions entering and leaving Pittsburgh in a quick fashion. The diesels proved to be far superior and less costly to maintain than steam locos so the entire system was dieselized. The PRR took from 1939 to 1957 to replace the steam locos with diesels. Nineteen years is not a rapid rate of change. But alas, we come to the late 50's and early 60's. Those bonds issued during the depression were coming due, the freight car fleet was in shambles with nearly 40% in storage awainting repair. The average age of the fleet was over 30 years and the short term financing of the early diesels were coming to an end. And passenger business was declining rapidly as air travel increased. The long haul trucking industry was relatively unregulated while the railroads were severly regulated with regard to tariffs. Railroads were prohibited from lowereing rates to compete with trucks. The trucking industry fought every attempt by every rail carrier to lower its rates. The ICC repeated forced the rail carriers to maintain rates in excess of their needs and which were certainly non-competitive. All of these factors played a role in the PRR looking for a "merger" partner. Although PC was for all intents and purpose a take over of the NYC by the PRR. The resulting infighting between the Red and Green teams doomed PC to failure. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:43:47 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline Content-Length: 1748 In a message dated 97-10-10 07:09:46 EDT, you write: << But I'd love to see what the fruits of a PRR takeover of the N&W would have yielded. >> Hey, Derrick, What I want to see is the portfolios of the Board that agreed to the merger. Bet they're stuffed full of stock for N&W, TrailerTrain Corp., Greyhound and other profitable Pennsy operation spun off long before the merger. Most of the Pennsy track west of Pittsburgh was second tier. Before John Edgar Thompson and even after him the PRR Board was a very Conservative bunch. Their interpretation of the 1846 corporate charter kept them from directly in volving the PRR Co.in operations west of Pittsburgh until 1920. Add Virginia'a blocking of the Panhandle line straight west from Pittsburgh until 1860 gave the B&O and what would become the NYC a decade head start. As a result, the B&O and NYC lins tended to follow the gradual grades of major river valleys (Scioto, Great Miami, Mad) while the PRR was forced to cross most of them (save the Cleveland & Marietta which generally followed the Muskingum River valley, a route which served coalfield but was devoid of major population centers.) The two superior Pennsy Lines in the west, Indianapolis-St.Louis and Cincinnati-Richmond-Logansport is still in use, soon to be all NS. The best revenge is living well. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/10/97 Content-Length: 921 Some see the lights inside the museum at Strasburg as "greenish," others, like me, think they are "blueish." See -- it's light, and cameras, and even differences in our human perception. But as I remember "Old Rivets" when she was freshly repainted and out in the yard at the museum, she looked black with a "greenish" cast. The steamers, however, perhaps due to age, or light, or the time spent outdoors, have always looked black to me, although I assume that they didn't seem that way years ago up in Northumberland. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:07:16 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/10/97 Content-Length: 786 Greetings -- Amen to curiosity about what a PRR-NW merger would have been like! But here's something that maybe someone out there knows something about. The I1 that didn't get to Strasburg ended up in the hands of some historical group in New York State. Where is it now? Is it just rusting away somewhere? Wouldn't it be great to have that locomotive restored to running condition? Jim ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:25:59 -0400 Content-Length: 1203 Intelligence has nothing to do with congress and should not be used in the same sentence. Look what a wonderful help they were to the railroad industry! Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: John Riedell > To: Hfitch > Cc: Stephen Bartlett ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Re- PRR tunnel - inquiring minds want to know > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 12:10 PM > > Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > > > Perhaps this train can be called the "New Congressional" > > > > We could take capitol hill's occupants, put them in the train, > > fire her off and prove that their is life on Mars! > > > > (Mars light not included) > > I notice that you did not say "intelligent life" :-) > > jawn ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:37:41 -0400 (EDT) From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: Re: Timetables Content-Length: 1192 In a message dated 97-10-09 09:28:54 EDT, bobsin wrote: << Subj: Re: Timetables Date: 97-10-09 09:28:54 EDT From: bobsin@nac.net Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Reply-to: bobsin@nac.net To: KKOLLAR@pamdt.ang.af.mil CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com The Jan 1930 Official Guide reprint shows four trains each way <> Your town of North East must be too small for the Guide, perhaps it's a station in an operating timetable. Not to be confused with the North East near Erie, of course, which is on a railroad which we do not talk about here. John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ >> Kris's original note referred to trains which "ran THROUGH my hometown in Northeast PA", not "to my hometown of Northeast PA". Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: For what it's worth.... Content-Length: 846 The following is a direct quote from the September 1997 Philly Chapter PRRT&HS newsletter, received today. I omit only the man's phone number. (If anyone wants it, I'll give it to you privately). "George Burbage of Feasterville has been generating and updating the text for the PRR T&HS national web site RRHISTORICAL.COM/ PRTHS.HTM, however he needs help in keeping it embellished with interesting graphics. Can you help him regularly?" Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Major Announcement from Merchandise Service Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 21:05:14 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2157 NOTE: It will not be my habit to post such announcements to the lists. However, this is a major one. If you would like regular updates, there is an "announcment" list available from the "Merchandise Service" site. It generates only a post or two a month. Good news from "Merchandise Service". I now handle dozens of manufacturers. Please stop by and view my "vendors" listing. Please note that this list is not complete; I have access to many more. I only listed what I feel are the most popular. New additions include Accurail, American Model Builders, Bowser, C&BT Shops, Eastern Car Works, Intermountain, Life-Like (P2K), Red Caboose, Stewart Hobbies, Tichey, and Westerfield. (I am still seeking approval for Bachmann Spectrum, Bethlehem Car Works, and Brass Car Sides.) All that is online is the list of vendors (except for Union Station Products). I will be working on catalogs for these new vendors, with pricing. In the mean time, since modelers tend to know who makes what, just e-mail me for a quotation. I am also pleased to announce that Union Station Products has several new passenger car sides available, including Pennsy class POS21 - the pre-war smooth-side 2-1 lounge observation used on the "Liberty Limited" and other blue ribbon trains. If passenger service is your forte, please review the listing. Your purchases from "Merchandise Service" support the costs of running "Keystone Crossings", "PRR-Talk", and "Conrail-Talk". Proceeds will get us to higher bandwidth!!! Thank you. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:39:26 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: PRR - Conrail History 1929-1938 Content-Length: 1897 >I'm new to your forum and am business history writer trying to understand >WHY the railroads did NOT advance into the airline or bus business. They, >PRR-NY Central and Santa Fe, began an effort in 1929 but went no farther >through the mid-late '30's. > >If there are any railroad historians who would like to converse about this >topic, I would really appreciate hearing from you. > >Thanks, >Jack Savidge >E-Mail: jacksavidge@worldnet.att.net ========== The big reason was Federal regulation of the railroad industry. Various roads exparamented with co-op bus and air service as far back as the 20s - Greyhound started as a rail subsidiary and there were no end of attempts at air linkage (often using Ford trimotors!) However, the Federales stepped in and slapped it down. Claimed it was a monopoly. You have to remember that, until the big PC collapse, the railroad industry was nationalized in all but name. The railroads had no effective say on any significant economic issue: rates, routes, trackage abandonments, system rationalizing, labor. And too, by that time, the management of many roads was probably too ossified to have made an effective go of it- with the exception of a possible few passenger oriented roads like B & O and Santa Fe. Even if the govt had not stepped in, it is likely these efforts would have been weak sisters that were eventually spun off and became independant air and bus lines. Hope this will help. Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:52:06 -0400 (EDT) From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Subject: South Fork flyover Content-Length: 779 I found the video that shows the bridge at South Fork. It's PRR glory #3. John Prophet shot some film in 1947 I believe from a westbound pass. train from Phila. to as far west as South Fork. The clip with the J-1 passing the stopped pass. train shows the bridge. There are great shots of pass. consists in this video including one in York Pa. for all you NC fans out there. Ken McCorry ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:31:46 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 951 In a message dated 97-10-10 05:48:41 EDT, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG (Derrick J Brashear) writes: << 've never heard anything other than the street tunnel off Carson called the "Corliss Tunnel" and all of the stories about that one called it something else. Forget what. >> According to the article "The Panhandle Division - Main Line 1942" by Olsen, Olsen, and Lynch in the "Keystone" Vol. 23 N0. 4. Winter 1990, Tunnel #2 of the Panhandle Division located 4.7 miles west of Union Station Pittsburgh being 2370 feet in length was the CORLISS Tunnel. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:43:48 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Inquiring minds really DON'T wanna know Content-Length: 813 And Doug Maddox notes: >>Of course, it seems that, if the booster burned out before it launched, it >>would be an unpowered vehicle, and exempt from FAA regulation just like a >>hang >>glider. >> >>Bob >>Those Classic Trains >> >Does that make the space shuttle on re-entry exempt from FAA regs? Yeah. And seeing as there's no stewardess, they're exempt from the Union, too. You know who. Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:17:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: PRR tunnel Content-Length: 1169 On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-10-10 05:48:41 EDT, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG (Derrick J > Brashear) writes: > > << 've never heard anything other than the street tunnel off Carson called > the > "Corliss Tunnel" and all of the stories about that one called it something > else. Forget what. > >> > According to the article "The Panhandle Division - Main Line 1942" by Olsen, > Olsen, and Lynch in the "Keystone" Vol. 23 N0. 4. Winter 1990, Tunnel #2 of > the Panhandle Division located 4.7 miles west of Union Station Pittsburgh > being 2370 feet in length was the CORLISS Tunnel. Ok. All of the news articles on the Airport Busway keep calling it the "Berry St. Tunnel" for obvious reasons if you've ever been in the area -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:30:49 -0400 (EDT) From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: Re: Request: PRR system map Content-Length: 1085 In a message dated 97-10-10 16:49:33 EDT, you write: << Subj: Request: PRR system map Date: 97-10-10 16:49:33 EDT From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org (Mark D Bej) Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Gents: I would like to get a good PRR system map to scan in. I would _borrow_ this map from you, unless you have access to a scanner and could scan it for me. My preference would be for a pre-WW II map, one that shows the PRR in as large a state as possible. Anybody have such an animal? -- Mark >> I believe I have one c. 1940: will not be home for a few weeks, will look for it then. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA and Niles IL ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: K4s, 1361, restoration work photos Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:10:17 -0400 Content-Length: 789 To take a look at the restoration work on K4s, 1361. Take a look at the following URL's http://mailhost.cs.uofs.edu/~steamtwn/photo1a.html http://mailhost.cs.uofs.edu/~steamtwn/photo30a.html http://www.railroadcity.com/railroad/k4.htm Also for GG1 info at this site, check this URL http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/gg1rstr.html Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:35:49 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: PRR Tenders (was Bowser K4) Content-Length: 1759 Hi All, First, I've been enjoying the discussion about PRR tenders. A few weeks (months?) ago one of you posted a listing of PRR tenders and I failed to save it. Could you please repost to me privately? Second, the series on scratch building in brass in the last two MR's has really gotten me inspired! Where can one find detailed drawings of various classes of PRR steam locos, tenders and electric locos? I am particularly interested in the P5 electric (boxcab - those curves on the modifieds look too tricky) and the I-1. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline (fwd) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 8:21:49 EDT Content-Length: 1272 > The decline of the PRR can be attributed to its size. During the depression > and WWII the PRR kept it workforce nearly intact. Yes there were some > layoffs but remember at a time when cash was scarce the PRR undertook the > electrification of the mainline east of Harrisburg. One of the reasons for > the timing of this project was to keep as many employees working as possible. > As a result of this project, the X31, X32, X33, assorted flat car and gon > building projects, the PRR proved employment for the vast majority of it > employees and incurred vast amounts of debt particularly 25 and 30 year > bonds. This would explain it. 25- and 30-year bonds taken out in the 40s would have matured in the 70s -- and it was exactly these bonds that were coming due that were causing Bevan's headaches. (among other things causing his head- aches, of course) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:10:31 -0600 Subject: The View from Over Here Content-Length: 2118 I am on a business trip to London. Spent Sat. checking out the local model shops. They are quite small and either combination toy/hobby shops or quite specialized (one is strictly scratch building supplies, another only military models, etc.). Found one shop, Victors, that was about half european and half american roadnames. He had a fair selection of Athearn and Accurail along with Roco and Bawa. The prices were in pounds sterling and about what we would expect in dollars at MSRP. Example: an Athearn box car that in the US would be marked $ 5.00 MSRP was 5 pounds (or about $ 8). Found one piece of PRR rolling stock, a Roco made gondola, that I did not buy at the 16.75 pound price (or $ 28). Sunday I visited the British National Railway Museum at York. Rail passenger service is very good over here. York is about 250 miles north of London and I had my choice of trains to and from, one leaving almost hourly all day. The trip was swift (just over 2 hours at 200+ KM/HR), smooth over double track continous welded rail on concrete ties (or sleepers over here) under catenary, comfortable in about 10 very clean, new looking coaches with airline type seats pulled by electric power (one on either end so nothing has to be turned for the return trip), a buffet food service available onboard, all for 24 pounds round trip (about $ 40). My rail ticket entitled be to half price admission to the museum. The museum, billed as the largest railway museum in the world, was a five minute walk from the York railway station and is housed in former railway maintenance shops. It is very clean and the exhibits very well done. I spent 5 hours in the museum and barely saw it all. Bill Laird ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:31:47 -0500 From: "CronesRacing@disknet.com" Subject: Pensy Work Gondola Content-Length: 632 Hi Everyone! I just wanted to give you all the chance to get this photo. It is of a work gondola taken at the Hawthorn Yard in Indianapolis, Indiana last year. Here is the address. http://www.disknet.com/CronesRacing/pensygon.gif Thanks, Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:50:19 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Re: Port Perry tunnel (fwd) Content-Length: 1198 Mark D Bej wrote: > > By the way, does anyone know if "Pennsy in the Steel City" is still > > available? I really need to buy this book! > > Yes. Write the PRRTHS main office, address on my or Jerry's pages. The gift shop the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona has it for sale. I bought a copy there on Friday for $18. BTW, the East Broad Top Fall Spectacular was spectacular again. The highlight for me was riding the night train on Saturday in the cupola of the caboose on the second section.... :-) Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Trains Unlimited Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 07:41:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 943 I missed (and forgot to tape) last nights installment of the "Trains Unlimited" series on the History Channel. It was to be on how the railroads streamlined and made their trains faster. Had to've included some Pennsy stuff! Does anyone know of another showing time during the week? Does anyone have a tape of this week's episode I could borrow? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Trains Unlimited From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 08:46:07 -0400 Content-Length: 1403 >I missed (and forgot to tape) last nights installment of the "Trains >Unlimited" series on the History Channel. It was to be on how the >railroads streamlined and made their trains faster. Had to've included >some Pennsy stuff! > >Does anyone know of another showing time during the week? Does anyone >have a tape of this week's episode I could borrow? > >--------------------------------------------- Jerry, They do re-run it, but I forget exactly when. I think its Sunday night. Last night's segment did include some mention of the Century/Broadway rivalry. Unfortunatly most of the film was of the Century - it pays to advertise! They spent a good deal of time on ancient history, (intercity travel in 1840) and the last 15 minutes were an unabashed endosrement for Amtrak's new high speed trains. It was the first segment I'd seen since the one on train robberies. regards Andy Miller BTW - I painted the sides and window frames of COLONIAL FLAGS last night. Film at 11. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR freight car classes... Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 11:11:16 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 941 Hi all, When the PRR changed over from using letters for class designations (ie XL, ND, FM etc...) to numbers, how did they pick which number to start with? I always assumed that they started one higher than the number of lettered classes. This doesn't always seem to work though. For example cabins have lettered classes NA, NB, NC, ND, NE but the numbered classes start at N4... You'd think that they would have started at the N6's. The same thing happens with other car classes too. Why? Also, what ever happened to the N7 cabin car? Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:12:16 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: RE: Trains Unlimited Content-Length: 1604 Greetings to Jerry and the group, Andy got the day right. The replay comes on at 7:00 PM here in the east. I know that for a fact since I set up the VCR wrong for last Monday's _Super Trains_ episode but got the Saturday replay. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >>I missed (and forgot to tape) last nights installment of the "Trains >>Unlimited" series on the History Channel. It was to be on how the >>railroads streamlined and made their trains faster. Had to've included >>some Pennsy stuff! >> >>Does anyone know of another showing time during the week? Does anyone >>have a tape of this week's episode I could borrow? >> >>--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry, > >They do re-run it, but I forget exactly when. I think its Sunday night. > >Last night's segment did include some mention of the Century/Broadway rivalry. >Unfortunatly most of the film was of the Century - it pays to advertise! They >spent a good deal of time on ancient history, (intercity travel in 1840) and >the last 15 minutes were an unabashed endosrement for Amtrak's new high speed >trains. It was the first segment I'd seen since the one on train robberies. > >regards >Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Trains Unlimited Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:29:31 -0500 Content-Length: 591 Re the Central coverage, Actually, don't throw me off the list, but I secretly very much enjoyed the vintage film of the "regional's" 999 going like a bat out of H. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, Wisconsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: The unfortunate decline (fwd) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:02:10 -0500 Content-Length: 2113 First a question: did the government help fund the electrification? Having asked that, I apologize in advance for the length of the following. Undaunted by the fact I have done no specific research on the subject, I will plunge in with my opinion on the decline. All Northeast railroads declined, whatever their size. They wre stuck with more short-haul freight and passenger traffic than Western RR. The short-haul freight traffic was lost to the trucks. Pennsy made a valiant effort with the Truc Trains for distance. The Merchandise Service just didn't fly for LCL. Long distance passenger service had high overheads and the volumes dropped below breakeven. I believe they were in a Catch-22 on commuter service. Besides regulation, supply and demand curves meant increased fares = decreased ridership. Although they owned some valuable air rights, much of their property was in old, high-taxed areas. As I say, stream-of-consciusness, not well-researched data. One fact which I have had pointed out to me though is that ALL railroads were caught with their pants down on the diesels. Although they were more efficient, their physical depreciation equalled or was faster than their economic depreciation. RR officials were used to using steam locomotives at least 20 years beyond their book life (not necessarily efficient use, though). The diesel, however, if depreciated to zero book value in 15 years, was physically depreciated by that time as well. RR officials weren't used to planning for major capital outlays for locomotives after 15 years rather than 30. so you could say the second generation diesel (or the need for it) hurt all railroads and I believe the 60's would bear this out. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:12:33 -0400 Subject: Re: ListServ From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 946 May that new "rolling stock" bring wonderful blessings to your trainyard! Carl K. Vogel Former Engineer-Taunton & Tuckerton Railway >Why don't I do this tonight? Because my wife has to be at the hospital >at >5 p.m. to have labor induced...it's going to be a long night. Should >have >a new class of rolling stock by morning! 8-) > >Again, thank you for all of your patience. > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:16:13 -0400 Subject: Re: class designation for new "rolling stock"? From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 876 Bob: don't know enought about classifications, but got a good nickname..... How about "Babyboose"? It's both functional and generic. Carl K.Vogel Former Engineer-Taunton & Tuckerton >Ok all you Selective Prototype Followers: as we are about to have a >new >class of rolling stock, we need a proper class designation. Any >thoughts >on how the PRR would classify this new "rolling stock"? > >All the best to the prospective family! > >Bob >Those Classic Trains > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W.C. Knepper" Subject: New Freedom Station Kit in "HO" Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:06:55 -0400 Content-Length: 1074 American Model Builders ( Laser Kit ) will be releasing a kit for the New Freedom - "Northern Central Railway" Station in about a month. The kit is a wooden laser cut kit that is beautiful for the 1920's...vertical board and batten type construction. This station saw service under Northern Central, PRR, Penn Central, and Conrail. The railroad from York to New Freedom was sold to the county for a working Rail / Trail Park........And it's working...... I am building an advance kit of the station and so far it is a dream to build. Everything so far has fit perfect, and looks great... Just thought the modelers would like to know..... Bill Knepper Boxcar46@nfdc.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 05:51:56 -0400 (EDT) From: USPCo@aol.com Subject: Passenger Car Model Pics Content-Length: 1948 Hello to all, I'm Mark Meeks, one of the owners of Union Station Products. Many thanks to those of you that have purchased our products. If by some chance someone doesn't know who we are, just check out Jerry's PRR "Merchandise Service" section. Anyway, Andy's comment about "film at 11" got me thinking...USP would really appreciate it if any of you that are building models with our sides would send us a picture(s) of the finished product; either electronically or snail through Jerry. We need some good pictures of the finished models to add to our site. For a little incentive, the person whose picture is chosen for the site will receive a free set of sides for a car of your choice (either a current kit or a car for which you can supply side elevations and window spacing). If you haven't heard, Eastern Car Works is in the process of producing a Budd core kit with fluted roof, so we will be able to produce Budd car sides in the near future. ECW was hoping to make it available in November as kit #1399, so order now and order often at your local hobby shop. If anyone has any comments, complaints, questions, suggestions, etc., please let me know. I haven't been signed up long enough to know what has been discussed. By the way, I have really enjoyed the comments about the tunnel. This certainly is an imaginative group. I am really enjoying learning about the Pennsy. And, if you like our products, you can thank Neil Campbell. He bugged the **** out of me until I produced some kits. Let me hear from you. Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Trains Unlimited Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 06:44:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 927 On 10/14/97 11:12 AM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: >Andy got the day right. The replay comes on at 7:00 PM here in the east. I >know that for a fact since I set up the VCR wrong for last Monday's _Super >Trains_ episode but got the Saturday replay. Found out in the Harrisburg, Pa., area its on again Sunday at 11 a.m. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: New Freedom Station Kit in "HO" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 07:32:42 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1371 On 10/14/97 10:06 PM, W.C. Knepper (BoxCar46@nfdc.net) wrote: >American Model Builders ( Laser Kit ) will be releasing a kit for the New >Freedom - >"Northern Central Railway" Station in about a month. The kit is a wooden >laser cut kit that is beautiful for the 1920's...vertical board and batten >type construction. > >This station saw service under Northern Central, PRR, Penn Central, and >Conrail. >The railroad from York to New Freedom was sold to the county for a working >Rail / Trail Park........And it's working...... Build the station with the front face transposed -- telegraphers window on the right instead of the left -- and, voila, the station at Mount Wolf! (Mt. Wolf is between Emigsville and Wago Junction, north of York and south of Enola.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:41:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: The unfortunate decline (fwd) Content-Length: 1279 In message <01BCD8BA.88B967A0@bob.amsignal.com> "Bob Zoeller" writes: > > First a question: did the government help fund the electrification? >From The Keystone, 29:4, p 20, col 1, pgf 4: "Since the PRR was using its own money to finance the electrification project, the stock market crash in 1929 and the ensuing economic Depression could have easily terminated it. However, loans of $27.5 million from the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and another $80 million from the Public Works Administration in 1934 (all of which was later repaid) helped the project going. This fact that the electrification program was also providing a wealth of needed jobs for displaced railroad workers made it a hit with the fellows down Washington, D.C." Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Spectrum passenger cars... Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 16:27:16 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 656 A while ago there was mention on the list about various people wanting Spectrum PRR passenger cars. My local hobby shop just got in a few sets in the Pre War scheme (gold leaf lettering, olive trucks) They looked pretty nice but the lettering looked a bit heavy. Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Union Pacific and the Suffering Pacific & Conrail Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:20:16 -0400 Content-Length: 1848 Union Pacific and the Suffering Pacific will have an impact on Conrail and everybody else for awhile. While talking to a Conrail employee at Railfest '97, I was given a little information that hinted at a big traffic problem on UP. This problem has a rippling effect on Conrail. Today I got a look at The Kiplinger Washington Letter. (Oct. 3, 1997 Vol 74 #40) This weekly business letter states that the basic cause for this is "a series of colossal blunders by Union Pacific, the nations largest railroadclosing rail yards, consolidating routes and laying off crews. It tried pushing too many cars through a big yard in Houston. Within weeks, the backup left trains parked all over Texas. UP couldn't fix the problem. Now it's whole 23 state system is snarled." California, Texas and Nebraska are reported to be especially bad. This has caused plastic and chemical manufacturers to curtail production. Can't get their shipments out. Many other industries will be effected. The list of effected yards, possible solutions and impact statements are too large to post. Now I know what that Conrail employee meant by saying that UP has it's hands full for awhile and that X amount of Conrail freight and equipment is tied up in this mess. Anybody that has a pulse on Conrail traffic volume, let me know if you see this ripple effect in a measurable way. Thanks, Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:39:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: Union Pacific and the Suffering Pacific & Conrail Content-Length: 1605 I also subscribe to a list server called Railspot which covers the 5 state area of TX, LA, AR, OK and NM. For the past two months there has been almost nothing but discussion of the traffic congestion in the area and particularly at the Englewood Yard in Houston. Some of the posts indicate traffic problems here have caused problem up in the mid west and to the west. It would not surprise me if Conrail was being affected. I, and others on the list, have see UP trains parked all over the place, on sidings and on main lines, some with crews and some without. Saturday I drove along the road that parallels the old MoPac route and saw 4 mixed freights, two of them very long, waiting to get into Englewood. Nothing but red signals along the entire line. UP has finally acknowledged that they were too slow to react and are trying to hire crews as fast as they can. They have offered employment to retired engineers. But the concensus down here is that it will not get better before early next year. So, if there is a Conrail impact, expect it to continue. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: FTP access to KC Files Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 09:49:03 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1929 Hi y'all... A few months back we had a thread about failures when "PRR-Talkers" tried to download files via FTP from my site at "ftp.dsop.com". The usual failure was a timeout after a meg or so of data was received. Yesterday I was tipped off to an upgrade to my site's router software. Apparantly, the router was the culprit -- not my computer or FTP server software! Anyway, the "geek" explanation is that the new version lowers the "MTU" rate (packet size). The older version had a higher rate and was causing FTP channel timeouts. I installed the new rev last night, and just completed a download. I completed the download while I was concurrently viewing Web pages AND retrieving e-mail from the same server DURING peek load hours. No problem! I need to update my links from my Web pages. They are linked via the user name "prr". To access the site, point your FTP client to "ftp.dsop.com" with the user name "anonymous" and the password equal to your e-mail address. (The system will verify for a valid e-mail address, though you can lie if you want to!) The directory "prr_outbound" contains the files from "Keystone Crossings". RELATED: Volume II of the CD-ROM "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" will be available around this time next month. (http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/cd.html). --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:35:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: Union Pacific and the Suffering Pacific & Conrail Content-Length: 1668 In message <199710161420.JAA03205@tamug.tamu.edu> Doug Drew writes: The Journal's take on the fundamental problems: UP management's > arrogance, and trying to do things too fast. Sound familiar? I remember when the PRR and NYC merged, but was so far removed from the scene that I have no knowledge of the problems caused. I suspect, however, there is one major difference between the PennCentral merger and the UP-SP merger. Texas fought the merger tooth and nail saying it would virtually eliminate competition and cause shipping problems. Everyone down here is saying "I told you so" but that is not helping the shippers caught in the crunch. BNSF and KCS have both put forward plans, which I have not read, to help alleviate the problems, but initially, at least, they were rebuffed by UP. UP is paying a lot of crews for sitting in their cabs for an entire work day and not moving anywhere. They are being sued by several energy companies for non delivery of coal. Lawsuits are threatened by other big users. UP has deep pockets, but... Can you imagine the havoc if UP goes belly up because of the problems! Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Importance of Stripping Before Painting? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 15:44:10 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2127 I've got some incorrectly painted Pennsy motive power that I need to repaint and letter. Specifically, an ABA set of Athearn F7s in tuscan that need redone in DGLE. Also, three tuscan Model Power "Sharks" A units in tuscan that need redone in DGLE. How important is it to "strip" factory paint prior to repainting? I've heard others mention that they do this. I don't have an airbrush yet (yeah, I know...), so I will need to use an existing "Brunswick Green" spray (vendor's color name, not mine!). Any recommendations on brand? Whose is darkest? I know for non-sprays, Polly Scale seems to be high on everyone's list. What about decals? Our neighborhood decal web page lists Walthers set #77920 "EMD #5150 series also Baldwin Sharks-gold". Is this the best bet for the "Sharks"? What about the F7's? Walthers set #77910 "EMD Freight Diesel 5 stripe???-dulux"? There's also Microscale #87-67 "PRR diesel single stripes". My era is mid-40s to mid-50s. As for details, I am aware of the windshield substitute for the F7's. There is also a cab interior in the Walthers catalog for the F7. What about a cab interior for the "Shark"; anyone try any of those available? Any preference for trainphone brand? If I recall, there are two offerings in the Walthers catalog. Last, but not least, one detailing vendor sells a "Shark" nose ladder. Did the Pennsy use these? I don't recall seeing them. Oh yeah, are the trainphone antennae, horns, etc., painted DGLE or black? As always, thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Importance of Stripping Before Painting? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:09:07 -0400 Content-Length: 2033 You can paint right over factory paint, provided it is clean, degreased of fingerprints, and, most importatnly, a smooth finish without any ridges between colors or very thick lettering. Either condition will show up under the DGLE paint you spray on top of it. Most of the recent Athearn paint jobs are pretty smooth. The early paint jobs are not. As a general rule, I remove factory paint, using either Scale Coat paint remover, or Chameleon brand stripper. Sure it's a messy extra step, but I think stripping off factory paint first makes a small improvement visually. I mix my own DGLE, so my color might not be your choice. I just took a close look at Floquil's Brunswick Green, and it looks quite good, closer to what I remember seeing on the Pennsy than the stuff Floquil used to sell as recently as a few years ago. Looks as if they made a small change to their color mix. You can also use Scalecoat II, which is also a near exact match for DGLE. As for decals, I avoid Walthers decals at any cost. I think most of that line is a bunch of tawdry crap and an insult to the modeler. Walthers showed some movement towards upgrading their offerings, but seem to have stopped that part of their busines in favor of their present focus, and since we are talking decals here, I don't want to characterize that in any way. I suggest using Champ, MicroScale, or Herald King, even though HK is light in the area you are modeling. I haven seen arecent Champ catalog, but I think they have most of what you need. I do know that their Dulux sets are superb. Good luck, Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Importance of Stripping Before Painting? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 16:13:47 -0400 Content-Length: 3916 Thats a lot of questions Jerry! Se my interspersed answers: >I've got some incorrectly painted Pennsy motive power that I need to >repaint and letter. Specifically, an ABA set of Athearn F7s in tuscan >that need redone in DGLE. Also, three tuscan Model Power "Sharks" A units >in tuscan that need redone in DGLE. > >How important is it to "strip" factory paint prior to repainting? I've >heard others mention that they do this. - ----- There are sveral puposes to stripping old paint: 1. prevent build-up of several layer of paint obscuring fine detail 2. prevent old scheme from being visible through new layer of paint 3. prevent "edges" of old paint (stripes etc)from being seen thru the new finish. Assuming the old paint is thin and you don't expect to repaint the engine 4 or 5 times (there are people who change prototype or era once a month), I don't worry about reason 1. If the new paint is dense enough, I wouldn't worry about 2. Reason three may be a problem but is frequently fixed with #400 sandpaper and asecond coat of paint. I rarely remove old paint! > >I don't have an airbrush yet (yeah, I know...), so I will need to use an >existing "Brunswick Green" spray (vendor's color name, not mine!). Any >recommendations on brand? Whose is darkest? I know for non-sprays, Polly >Scale seems to be high on everyone's list. > >What about decals? Our neighborhood decal web page lists Walthers set >#77920 "EMD #5150 series also Baldwin Sharks-gold". Is this the best bet >for the "Sharks"? - ----- I have always prefered Champ decals. Walthers printing usually has fuzzy edges and the research is not as good as M/S or Champ > >What about the F7's? Walthers set #77910 "EMD Freight Diesel 5 >stripe???-dulux"? There's also Microscale #87-67 "PRR diesel single >stripes". - ----- No, no a thousand times no. The only EMD unit ever to have the 5-stripe were the FP7s, and very few of them had that. All other Fs were DGLE single "mustard" stripe. The sharks could be done in either 1 mustard stripe, or 5 gold stripes, DGLE in either case. Remeber, the 5 stripe sharks had the circle keystoe in the stripes aft of the cab door. > >My era is mid-40s to mid-50s. > >As for details, I am aware of the windshield substitute for the F7's. >There is also a cab interior in the Walthers catalog for the F7. What >about a cab interior for the "Shark"; anyone try any of those available? > >Any preference for trainphone brand? If I recall, there are two offerings >in the Walthers catalog. Last, but not least, one detailing vendor sells >a "Shark" nose ladder. Did the Pennsy use these? I don't recall seeing >them. - ----- I use the CalScale brass antennae and steel wire. I solder the whole thing first in a wooden jig. That way each support supports its neighbor. The PRR used the nose ladder late in life, when the government (ICC?) required access to the windshield. Its the same regulation which grew the walkways on the side of E and F unit noses. For the 40s to mid 50s I'd ignore it. Talking of other detail, don't forget the "nose rings" on the F units. Typical PRR! > >Oh yeah, are the trainphone antennae, horns, etc., painted DGLE or black? - ------ DGLE, but don't forget to spray the roof Grimy Black around all the fans and ventilators; unless you are modelling the loco polished up for its builder's foto ;-) > >As always, thanks. - ------ As always, Glad to help Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR FA, SW1 painting.. Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 17:07:04 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 653 hi all, Were any PRR FA's ever painted single stripe gold leaf DGLE like Life-Like painted their units? What about PRR SW1's - Walthers painted theirs gold-leaf DGLE... These are both wrong... aren't they? Or do they know something I don't..... Thanks.... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Importance of Stripping Before Painting? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:28:24 -0500 Content-Length: 3867 To Jerry Britton's questions (long answer) I was fortunate enough to buy an undec single-headlight (correct for the "P" Co.) Athearn F7 shell and a similar dummy unit which were offered a few years ago. I also found a Stewart mechanism-only which might have been about the time of their F3 intro. However, my B-unit was a rubber band drive Athearn light green PRR scheme and if my memory serves me, I painted over it. From a few feet away it is difficult to see a difference. (BTW I don't MU the Stewart drive with a rubber band drive B-unit. I removed motor and die cut threads on the truck pins and attached the trucks with a nylon nut to make a dummy unit). However, manufacturers vary. I stripped an AHM E8 ( a real project)and the 5-stripes of the original scheme still appeared to be either etched or embossed on. Fortunately, the new decals covered them. I stripped my Model Power sharks successfully. It was worth it and I am not sure how my Scalecoat II "Brunswick Green" would have covered the Tuscan. Paint job is great. Now I must take off the crappy Walthers 5-stripe decals and restart with Microscale. Walthers decals were probably good by 40's and 50's standards, but I wouldn't use them today for anything unless they were the only source. I have painted Scalecoat II Tuscan over the salmon pink Spectrum diner with some success (looks fine to others), but to satisfy myself I would probably strip it if I had it to do over. Others can weigh in with their recommendations for other vendors (Champ makes an effort to make their decals more accurate-witness the new PRR caboose issues). However, with Microscale you have the choice of 5-stripe with circle keystone in gold leaf or single stripe in deluxe gold for your Sharks depending on the date(in the early 50's -somebody help -- I don't have my references handy). The F7's to my knowledge only came in the single stripe "gold buff", or Deluxe gold, whatever you want to call it. I used Utah Pacific antenna stanchions on the F7s and one Shark and age lists Walthers set #77920 "EMD #5150 series also Baldwin Sharks-gold". Is this the best bet for the "Sharks"? What about the F7's? Walthers set #77910 "EMD Freight Diesel 5 stripe???-dulux"? There's also Microscale #87-67 "PRR diesel single stripes". My era is mid-40s to mid-50s. As for details, I am aware of the windshield substitute for the F7's. There is also a cab interior in the Walthers catalog for the F7. What about a cab interior for the "Shark"; anyone try any of those available? Any preference for trainphone brand? If I recall, there are two offerings in the Walthers catalog. Last, but not least, one detailing vendor sells a "Shark" nose ladder. Did the Pennsy use these? I don't recall seeing them. Oh yeah, are the trainphone antennae, horns, etc., painted DGLE or black? As always, thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:15:21 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR freight car classes... Content-Length: 2148 In a message dated 97-10-14 11:16:52 EDT, robs@protocol.zycad.com writes: << When the PRR changed over from using letters for class designations (ie XL, ND, FM etc...) to numbers, how did they pick which number to start with? I always assumed that they started one higher than the number of lettered classes. This doesn't always seem to work though. For example cabins have lettered classes NA, NB, NC, ND, NE but the numbered classes start at N4... You'd think that they would have started at the N6's. The same thing happens with other car classes too. Why? Also, what ever happened to the N7 cabin car? >> Don't know if I can answer all of this. And most of this is based on observation rather than official records. The first numbered classes were N4, X23, G21, H21, TM8, K7, F22, R50. The last all letter classes were NE, GSx, KFa, FNa, and XM. The K7 would follow KFa. This is the only one which appears to match. Actually you need to take into account the classes and subclasses which remained in service when the system was changed, e.g. there were no NA or NB cabins remaining on the roster so NC = 1, ND = 2, NE = 3 thus N4. A similar review of the other groups will lead to the same situation. Remember prior to using numbers "hoppers" and gons were all classed as "G" and major subclasses appear to have been counted as distinct groups. The tank cars were all TMx where x is the capacity in thousands of gallons. The exception is TP-1. The refrigerator cars R50 and R60 were numbered based on capacity. The N7 like many other classes, e.g., X27, X34, X39, H38, F24, 26, F27 etc. were designed or at least reached the stage where they were given a class number but were never built. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:10:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Jpk815@aol.com Subject: Re: Pensy Work Gondola Content-Length: 759 Hey nice pic. I just thought i would point out that that i was on the way to work yesterday about 8:30am and I spotted a PRR gondola carrying a load of pipes on a CSX frieght crossing the potomac into Washington. I was stuck in traffic getting on the 14th street bridge and I looked up and couldn't believe my eyes... but there it was... a faded PRR on the rear of the car! ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:49:57 -0500 From: "CronesRacing@disknet.com" Subject: Pensy Boxcar Content-Length: 716 Hi Everyone! Here is another photo for you. It was taken last year at the yard in Jeffersonville, Indiana. If any one can help to identify the type please let me know, or if any one is interested in a Penn Central photo,E-mail me and I will give you the address. http://www.disknet.com/CronesRacing/pensybox.gif Thanks, Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR FA, SW1 painting.. Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:45:32 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 959 On 16 Oct, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Were any PRR FA's ever painted single stripe gold leaf DGLE like Life-Like > painted their units? [ ... ] > > These are both wrong... aren't they? Or do they know something I don't..... Are you asking about the paint scheme itself, or are you making a distinction between gold leaf and dulux gold? The N scale LL FA and FB units I have match the photos in various Pennsy books very well, except for the placement of the logo on one side of the B unit. Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Pensy Boxcar From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 10:18:39 -0400 Content-Length: 941 >Hi Everyone! Here is another photo for you. It was taken last year at >the yard in Jeffersonville, Indiana. If any one can help to identify the >type please let me know, or if any one is interested in a Penn Central >photo,E-mail me and I will give you the address. >http://www.disknet.com/CronesRacing/pensybox.gif >Thanks, >Jeff - ----- The foto's a bit fuzzy, but it appear to have the inset side sill of an X26. It was last used in company service, thus the black "S" in the yellow rectangle in the top left corner. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:47:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Re: Importance of Stripping Before Painting? Content-Length: 1754 In a message dated 97-10-16 21:11:14 EDT, in part, you write: << Last, but not least, one detailing vendor sells a "Shark" nose ladder. Did the Pennsy use these? I don't recall seeing them. >> Pennsy did indeed equip their 'Sharks' with right-side nose ladders. However, the time frame it appears, is the dominant factor. "Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 2" contains numerous photos of 'Sharks', both Pax and Freight units with these ladders affixed. It appears, that an early 50's unit would be correct without the ladder. As built, the 'Sharks' had the very small numberboards. These were changed in the later 50's to a much larger, and also offset, board. BTW, last weekend at the show in Timonium, I latched onto a pair of BP-20's by Alco. One day, in the near future, I hope to convert the A unit to one of the two units that Pennsy altered to the dual headlight configuration. I've always felt that the dual setup enhanced the looks of that engine :-) << Oh yeah, are the trainphone antennae, horns, etc., painted DGLE or black? >> After looking at a number of photos using a magnifier, it would appear that the antennae always matched the color of the engine bodywork. Horns also match the bodywork except for some of the BP-20's which had either a silver or silver/gray coloring. Hope this helps. Regards, George ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Calling All Crash Test Dummies... Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 13:23:26 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 3108 Greetings netizens! Always looking to build a better mousetrap, I'm trying out some new HTML code and am looking for a few testers. Here's the deal: I am constantly having people send me e-mails about their inability to properly send commands to "subscribe" to a list, or do some other command with the listserv. Personally, I don't think it's that hard...put the command in the SUBJECT and send it to "listserv@dsop.com". You'd be amazed at how many people don't follow the simple command syntax (are two words too many?). Anyway, I'm trying to make it idiot proof. I'm testing a form of embeded mail link (that I just learned) on a Web page which "should" open up a new e-mail message which is pre-addressed to the listserv (nothing new here) and has the appropriate commands ALREADY in the subject field (now that IS new!). No chance of typos!!! Anyway, as useful as this command is, I saw it today for the first time. Perhaps it is not widely compatable. I tried it on a Mac, with Internet Explorer 3.0 as my browser and Claris Emailer as my mail client. I'd like to get some feedback from the list as to what other combinations do or do not work. If it works, I'll completely redo the list instructions page and make all of the commands as embeded mail links. Here's the test: 1. Point your browser to: http://prr.dsop.com/test.html You should get a page that has one link which reads "Get Info On "PRR-Talk"". 2. Click on the link. You should get a new e-mail message form with the destination already set to "listserv@dsop.com" and the SUBJECT already filled out as "info PRR-Talk". 3. Send the message. If your e-mail client warns you that the BODY of the message is empty, disregard it. 4. Watch your mail. You should get back a message that describes the "PRR-Talk" list (one paragraph). Let me know what happens. BTW: It would also be possible to put this stuff into a Web form. However -- and not many people know this -- it is possible to "spoof" a listserv in this manner. The form asks for an e-mail address to subscribe to the list. You can lie and it will still take it, as it is actually being send by the server processing the form, not you! This opens the door to spammers, pranksters subscribing others to multitudes of lists, etc. By using an e-mail client program with SUBJECT commands, the address is read in via the FROM and REPLY TO fields. Authentication is built-in. Thanks for you help. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: LifeLike HO GP9's and various Content-Length: 1295 Does it strike anyone else as odd that Walthers has the LifeLike GP9's only in the 3rd PRR number offered because of the overwhelming demand for the Pennsy units, and none of the other 2 numbers yet? Did *that* many people preorder that their stock is already depleted? Also, anyone know anything about GP9 phases, and if the Pennsy owned any of the phase 1 or phase 2 units? (the phase 1 apparently shared the late GP7 body style, like the Atlas HO GP7 represents, or so I've heard) And in the interest of making fewer posts... I've been considering making my model railroad center on the west shore across from Harrisburg, probably selectively compressed but running from Duncansville south to ??? and perhaps with some missing territory so I can squeeze in Coatesville unless I get a better idea of what to do with my steel mill. Anyone have ideas or comments that might be useful? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:46:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: PRR FB-2 painting Content-Length: 486 Does anyone know if any of these locomotives were ever painted Tuscan? If so how many stripes? Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:03:44 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Prr stuff Content-Length: 668 Hey folks... anyone else seen the November Trains yet.... there is some thing about the Rockville bridge accident and a really great painting by Mike Danneman on page 38...ya gotta see it...hope he sells copies of it ... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: HO Layout Questions Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 06:50:27 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1822 On 10/19/97 11:27 PM, Zeolla (zeolla@erols.com) wrote: >I have a couple of questions regarding my first attempt at a sizeable HO >layout, and I was hoping to get some good feedback from the groups. The >basis of the layout is "The Central Midland", from one of the Atlas >layout books, but I've made some changes to better suit my >interpretation of different Pennsy features. It's a very nice layout...I considered it myself before my wife "gave me" a larger portion of the basement. > >Most of the mainline will be double track, with some sections being four >tracks wide. Does anyone have recommendations as to the normal spacing >between the tracks? I'm guessing that the spacing would be different on >curves than on straights. Is this true? I spoke with Bob from Model >Railroad Stone Works last week at Timonium, and am hoping to use his >four track skewed arch. Anybody know the spacing that this bridge >requires? In HO, I think 2" spacing on the straights is typical. > >I've also got a spot where I may be able to replicate (sort of) the >Whitford Bridge crossing over the mainline. But that's way down the >road. Sure will be eager to see how this layout turns out for you. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RESULTS: Crash Test Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 08:19:34 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1096 Thanks to all who tested by "extended" mail link. The file is now removed from the server. As for results: It worked for 80%+ of the respondents. However, the 20% failure rate prevents its regular use. Darn! Again, I can go FORMS-based. This should work in any browser and is easily enacted. As I explained previously, though, this opens the door to SPAMmers and for people to maliciously subscribe others without their knowledge (which then generates hoards of hate mail to the "listmaster"). --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: HO Layout Questions Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:03:15 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 827 On 19 Oct, Zeolla wrote: > My basement has a vinyl tile floor, but I also have a couple of large > rugs that I could put down over the tile. Are there any stong opinions > and/or reasons why the rugs are not a good idea? They sure make my > basement more inviting. By all means, use the rugs. Tile floors (even vinyl) get *very* hard after not very much time. Your feet, and those of your operating guests, will thank you. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRR FB-2 painting From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 09:09:15 -0400 Content-Length: 594 >Does anyone know if any of these locomotives were ever painted Tuscan? - ------- I know. - NEVER. >If so how many stripes? - ---------- ergo - NONE > >Harold > - ------- regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: MP54's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 10:21:04 -0400 Content-Length: 4414 >Andy Miller, > >I'm on the PRR-Talk list and read a message back in September regarding >MP54's. You mentioned that you have found the Funero & Camerlengo LIRR Ping >Pong car to be the closest thing to a MP54. > >I am looking into making an MP54, but am very new at all of this, so I need a >lot of guidance. My dream is to make a motorized MP54 with working >pantographs. It remains to be seen, whether I end up with that, it may be a >lofty goal. > >Have you made your own MP54? Can you give me any advice in what I'd like to >do? > >Thanks, >Andy Norton > - -------- Andy, I'm CCing this to PRR-Talk since it may be interesting to other SPFs. Yes, I've made my own MP54s. I scratch built a pair many years ago. They were done with paper overlays glued over a plexiglass side. The paper was a building paper once available from Kibri or Vollmer (as I recall). It was intended as the wrapper for home-made steel storage tanks and had rivets embossed into it. It is unfortunatly no longer availabe so I have not scratch built any more riveted HW cars, including MP54s. I have built 2 F&C MP54s; but I built them for the LIRR as F&C intended and have not yet tried to kitbash one into a PRR MP54. It would involve changing the roof. The F&C cars are actually P54s, the "steam" trailers, and require drilling the porthole windows (and in the case of LI ping-pongs, the headlight) into the end. The remainder of my commuter fleet are either Alco brass cars or Walthers. Walthers cars are (were) too long. The brass cars are beautiful, but of course are normally very expensive. I picked up a trio of them for $150 TOTAL! Otherwise I never could afford them. They were part of an estate bought by a dealer in Albuquerque NM - Santa Fe territory! He had no trouble unloading the SF stuff and any steam, but PRR electrified commuter cars? They stood on his shelf until I came along. It probably will never happen again :-( So where does that leave you?? 1. Scratch build them without any rivets 2 Scrounge up old (and inaccurate) Walther's cars 3. Sell you first-born into slavery and buy brass 4. Kit bash F&C (BTW, F&C cars are a bear to build. They have the WORST instructions and are not for beginners!!) 5. Sit tight and pray. P54s after all are a prototype shorty, The PRR persists in being one of the two best selling roads, and P54s can be painted accuratly for 7 roads! (A trivia contest for PRR fans) So perhaps some plastic moulder will consider them (How about it Bowser, your first passenger car??) Now about power. All my cars have (or will have) interiors. I use under-floor power trucks. I have had good luck with the Tenshodo SPUD trucks, they even replaced a worn gear set free of charge through the mail for me! However, they now sell for over $50 each so its unlikely I will use them again. (Pray for the return of the 220 yen dollar!) KTM now has an under-floor power truck. I had poor results with one under a Walthers car many, many years ago. They had no ground clearance and were mechanically poor - - they fell apart! But they have been re-designed and are now available for about $20, so I bought one and will be trying it under an F&C LIRR car soon. I re-motored my Alco brass cars. They originally had the old Suydam spring-belt drives and open frame motors. The commuters kept complaining that the springs slipped and the large motors made it impossible to get to their seats! I put my last SPUD truck under the coach. In the combine where I had a baggage compartment to play with I rebuilt the car with an Athearn switcher power truck coupled to a can moter and flywheel. (I can hear the sound of brass collectors cringing now!) Its a squeeze, but it fit and runs very well. I realize there's not much good news here for you or anyone else starting an MP54 fleet, but its the best dope I can give you. Good luck. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 9:09:57 -0600 Subject: HO Layout Questions -Reply Content-Length: 2534 MY RESPONSE IN CAPS TO: >>> "zeolla@erols.com" (Bob Zoella) 10/19/97 09:55pm wrote >>> I have a couple of questions regarding my first attempt at a sizeable HO layout, and I was hoping to get some good feedback from the groups. The basis of the layout is "The Central Midland", from one of the Atlas layout books, but I've made some changes to better suit my interpretation of different Pennsy features. SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD CHOICE. My basement has a vinyl tile floor, but I also have a couple of large rugs that I could put down over the tile. Are there any stong opinions and/or reasons why the rugs are not a good idea? They sure make my basement more inviting. ADVANTAGES OF CARPET: 1) MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE ON YOUR FEET WHEN STANDING FOR LONG PERIODS. 2) SOUND DEADENING. 3) LOOKS BETTER. DISADVANTAGES OF CARPET: 1) WILL COLLECT A LOT OF DUST AND DIRT DURING CONSTRUCTION PHASE. 2) FREQUENTLY DIFFICULT TO FIND SMALL ITEMS DROPPED DURING CONSTRUCTION AND LATER IN OPERATIONS. PERHAPS THE BEST OF ALL IS TO INSTALL CARPET AFTER CONSTRUCTION IS COMPLETED, IF THAT IS FEASIBLE. Most of the mainline will be double track, with some sections being four tracks wide. Does anyone have recommendations as to the normal spacing between the tracks? I'm guessing that the spacing would be different on curves than on straights. Is this true? TWO INCH CENTER TO CENTER IS GOOD ON STRAIGHT SECTIONS. IT LOOKS GOOD BUT CAN BE SOMEWHAT DIFFICULT TO RERAIL ROLLING STOCK IF THERE ARE TRAINS ON BOTH TRACKS NEXT TO ONE ANOTHER. CURVES NEED FURTHER SPACING SO PASSENGER CARS (AND OTHER LONG PIECES OF ROLLING STOCK) WILL NOT STRIKE ONE ANOTHER ON OPPOSITE TRACKS. WIDTH BETWEEN TRACKS WILL VARY WITH CURVEATURE, HOWEVER TWO AND ONE QUARTER INCHES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED MINIMUM. THERE IS AN EXCELLENT BOOK ON EVERYTHING YOU WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT TRACKWORK (WITH MANY TABLES ON TRACK SPECIFICATIONS), AUTHOR IS MALLORY AND IT IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE AT A HOBBY SHOP NEAR YOU. (remainder of Bob's msg deleted) BILL LAIRD London England (at least for another week or so, then home to Houston) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Tonight's "Trains Unlimited" Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 11:17:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 902 The 5th episode of "Trains Unlimited" is on The History Channel tonight at 10 p.m. (at least in the East). Tonight's eposide is on "the railroads during the War". BTW: I did find a rerun time of last week's episode ("Built For Speed") which I had missed. Thanks anyway to those who offered to lend a tape. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: EOT signs 1949 on Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:35:31 -0500 Content-Length: 745 As shown in Pullman Standard Vol. 4 PRR, Mountain View and Tower View as delivered in early 1949 had brass frames with raised keystone outline for end of train sign. Yet I have never seen a picture of these cars with anything other than the alphabet noodle sign "Broadway Limited". Was the "Broadway" 4-track sign ever used on these cars? If so, for how long? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: EOT signs 1949 on From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 12:58:46 -0400 Content-Length: 950 Yes, for the first few year of their lives they ran with the "Broadway 4-track" tail sign. I don't know ther exact date of the change over to the "modern" sign. regards Andy Miller >As shown in Pullman Standard Vol. 4 PRR, Mountain View and Tower View as delivered in early 1949 had brass frames with raised keystone outline for end of train sign. >Yet I have never seen a picture of these cars with anything other than the alphabet noodle sign "Broadway Limited". Was the "Broadway" 4-track sign ever used on these cars? If so, for how long? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:20:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: EOT signs 1949 on Content-Length: 682 Tomar Industries at one time made EOT signs for several PRR passenger trains. The information with them told when they were used. You would need to match the dates for the signs with the car assignements. Several versions of the Broadway sign are shown in NJI's Broadway Limited book. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: LifeLike HO GP9's and various Content-Length: 1163 In a message dated 97-10-19 10:09:34 EDT, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG writes: << Does it strike anyone else as odd that Walthers has the LifeLike GP9's only in the 3rd PRR number offered because of the overwhelming demand for the Pennsy units, and none of the other 2 numbers yet? Did *that* many people preorder that their stock is already depleted? Also, anyone know anything about GP9 phases, and if the Pennsy owned any of the phase 1 or phase 2 units? (the phase 1 apparently shared the late GP7 body style, like the Atlas HO GP7 represents, or so I've heard) >> It is my understanding the the reason the 3rd PRR number was produced was because the first two numbers were soldout by preorders. PRR had all three phases of GP-9's plus the GP-9B. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Pennsylvania Limited at Englewood Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:46:50 -0400 Content-Length: 688 For a color image of the Pennsylvania Railroad 5761 (E8A) on train #55, the Pennsylvania Limited at Englewood Union Station in Chicago, Illinois. (January, 1966) point your browser at- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1050/pix1/ja-r087.jpg Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: 5878 (E7A) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:54:25 -0400 Content-Length: 668 Another PRR passenger image at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1050/arcv1/ja-r062.jpg 5878 (E7A) on eastbound passenger hits the Rock Island diamonds at Englewood Union Station in Chicago, Illinois. (February, 1965) Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:15:40 -0400 From: jlrosen Subject: Re: HO Layout Questions Content-Length: 1222 Zeolla wrote: > > I have a couple of questions regarding my first attempt at a sizeable HO > layout, and I was hoping to get some good feedback from the groups. The > basis of the layout is "The Central Midland", from one of the Atlas > layout books, but I've made some changes to better suit my > interpretation of different Pennsy features. > > My basement has a vinyl tile floor, but I also have a couple of large > rugs that I could put down over the tile. Are there any stong opinions > and/or reasons why the rugs are not a good idea? They sure make my > basement more inviting. Bob, In my opinion the rugs will produce dust as the fibers break down. One of the biggest headaches is dust on a model railroad. If you want a soft surface to stand on consider a rubber mats. Just my opinion. John Rosenbauer ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:06:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Middle Division Track Plan Content-Length: 1152 In John Armstrong's book "20 Custom Designed Track Plans" he indicates a "Steel Works" at Mufflin between Enola Jct. and Jacks Narrows. Does anyone know anything about this industry. Is there such a place? and if so is there a source of photographs etc. I find a "Mifflin" on the map but no "Mufflin, perhaps a typo or just a made-up place? After attending Railfest and railfanning between Harrisburg and Altoona I am seriously considering switching to a slightly expanded version of the above referenced plan. Just beginning benchwork so its not too late to switch! I believe I have room to add compressed versions of Huntingdon, Mt. Union, and Lewistown with an 8 track, 32 foot long staging yard under Altoona representing Enola and Pittsburg. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Middle Division Track Plan Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 06:52:44 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1443 On 10/20/97 10:06 PM, Hal6963@aol.com (Hal6963@aol.com) wrote: >In John Armstrong's book "20 Custom Designed Track Plans" he indicates a >"Steel Works" at Mufflin between Enola Jct. and Jacks Narrows. Does anyone >know anything about this industry. Is there such a place? and if so is there >a source of photographs etc. I find a "Mifflin" on the map but no "Mufflin, >perhaps a typo or just a made-up place? If you read the text accompanying the layout, you will find that the layout's town of "Mifflin" is fictitious...named for governor Mifflin whose name is used in many Pennsylvania town names. The text goes on to state -- if I recall -- that the steel works was located into this layout's town for lack of other available locations and representative of the steel works east of Harrisburg (Steelton). Again, recollection. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:36:09 -0400 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Passenger Car Numbering Content-Length: 690 I've been through the PRRT&HS "Passenger Car Painting and Lettering" book and am stumped. In about 47, the PRR shifted from one number on the centerline of coaches back to two numbers on either end. What distance from the ends, or other feature, were these numbers? Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Duplicate Posts? Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 08:06:22 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1129 It's been brought to my attention by a "PRR-Talk" subscriber via America Online that he has received the "Crash Test" post 8 times and the "Trains Unlimited" post 3 times. Is anyone else receiving duplicates? If so, is anyone receiving duplicates that is not on America Online? (I ask this because AOL handles their mail differently and "can" be a source of problems for list traffic.) I subscribe to the list from a remote location (work, this address) and have not seen problems with duplication. Thanks for your help. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 06:50:32 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 1728 ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Zeolla Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:27:59 -0400 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, penn-central@smellycat.com Subject: HO Layout Questions >My basement has a vinyl tile floor, but I also have a couple of large >rugs that I could put down over the tile. Are there any stong opinions >and/or reasons why the rugs are not a good idea? They sure make my >basement more inviting. The only problem with rugs during layout construction is the debris (plaster, glue, paint, etc.) that inevitably falls on the floor. >Does anyone have recommendations as to the normal spacingbetween the >tracks? I'm guessing that the spacing would be different oncurves than on >straights. Is this true? Check the NMRA Recommendations. For straight track on my 4-track main, I use 2" spacing between track centers, smaller than the recommendations. On curves, I also did this and as a result am limited in the length of cars I can run on parallel tracks. This is also a function of the tightness of the curves (my minimum radius is 22"). 2 inches looks great and more prototypical than the recommended spacing but it does impose these operatiung limitations. Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: MP54's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 08:51:44 -0400 Content-Length: 2384 >Thanks for all of the information. I think I may pursue using F&C, but you >mentioned that the roof would need to be changed in addition to drilling the >porthole windows and headlight. > >I do not have a good resource for MP54 photos so I don't know what changes >need to be made to the roof. Can you explain? >Are you aware of a good resource on MP54's with pictures? > >Thanks for your help, >Andy Norton > - ----- All of my resources are ancient. The best source is plans published by MR in 1976 (I think) If you have access to a library of old MR's such as a model RR club, that's your best bet. Pennsy Power I and II, and I presume III, has lots of fotos. You might also try Pennsy Electric Years. The MP54 have monitor roofs. You will have to get some wood roof stock, The LI cars have arch roofs with flush ends, but otherwise the body is the same. The headlight hole is only on the LI flush end car. The PRR monitor roof car had a box headlight affixed to the sloping end of the roof. Fotos will show this. Both RRs had the porthole windows in the end of the car. The F&C kit has the rivited window frame cast on its end, so drilling out the window is easy. The prototype steam trailers had a plugged-up window opening. That's why the window frame is there. The casting, however, is very thick, so the window, when drilled out, will appear very deep. I alleviated this by drilling the window out before assembling the car, while I still could get access to the back of the part. I countersunk the window porthole from the inside to thin the visible wall section. Note that the monitor roof of an MP54 is a noticably lower in profile than that of a P70 or a Pullman car. Walthers used to make the correct wooden roof stock but you might have to fabricate roof stock from plastic sheet. Those 1976 plans would sure help. If all else fails, let me know and I can FAX or snailmail a copy of the plans to you. good luck Andy ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: MP54's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 09:02:34 -0400 Content-Length: 1577 ... (all sorts of literary history deleted) ... >> >>Hello.... > Hmmmm...I'd be happy if i could just find old Walthers cars...I need > some of the P-54 s. > Maybe you can kitbash some thing from the Bachmann P-70 s. > Heck i'd like to find the Walthers Pennsy style roofs... > > H.Mummert - ----- P70s had paired window while the PO54s had very rare tripled windows. The P70 roof is also substantially too high. A P70 is not a good starting point for KBing a P54! Be wary that W made two runs of P54s. The older run (dark blue and orange box) had singled windows and was very, very long for a P54. Their last run (light blue and white box) was better. It had the tripled windows and was only about 5 feet too long. Walthers cars are occasionally seen at the larger train shows (Timonium, Springfield, etc) on dealer tables. You could also ask (plead?) on PRR-Talk. BTW, I built my Walthers MP54s with a 1/32" brass floor and soldered the entire body together. They've held up for 25 years! The standard contsruction with W's wood floor Goo'ed in place does not fair as well over time. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 07:22:58 CST Subject: This and that... Content-Length: 2298 Hi, everyone, I had a couple of items. First, a la Hank Mummert's message, check out the Horseshoe Curve spread in the latest TRAINS by Mike Danneman. If Kalmbach or Danneman doesn't make this available, SPFers everywhere should rise up in revolt. It's stunning - vintage PRR when first gen diesels were still shiney. I plan to e-mail Kalmbach today on this one. Second, last year I got a catalogue from a fellow up neear Buffalo, NY filled with resin casting of various rr items, many of which are PRR. They include builders plates, station signs, front number plates, etc. I forgot to bring the address with me to my computer terminal but I wondered if anyone has ever done business with this guy. He rarely advertises in the national magazines and the stuff is just expensive enough (I think about $ 35 for builders plates, c.$75 for Keystone number plates, etc.) that I'd like some background before sending in my bucks. But the products look terrific in the catalogue. Any thoughts?? Finally, a question. Does anyone still make continuous loop cassette tapes for standard cassette players that are longer than 3 minutes? I've been wanting to dub such a tape with PRR steam sounds I've got - say 20 - 30 minutes worth - that I could just let play while the layout is running. Radio Shack's longest is 3 minutes. Or what about something using digital recording a la out phone answering machines? I'm no electronics wiz but I can follow a simpleschematic and buy parts from the various electronics catalogues. Could something be put together that could have the sounds dubbed in from actual recordings (I've got the set sold by the PRRT&HS) and then be played backthrough a simple home stereo system? PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Chase" Subject: PRR MP-54's Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:08:56 -0400 Content-Length: 1404 Mr. Miller, As you seem to be very knowledgeable concerning PRR MP-54's, I have many questions. First I assume all the MP-54's (P54's) were 54 feet long, even the group that was built later, 740-819? These were the 80 cars that were built in 1927 by the Standard Steel Car Co.as MUs. See p78, PRR Electric Years. What about the 2-MBM-62A baggage MUs (ibid. p63) ? Were they the same length? Are there plans for building HO 54' MUs available, other than he Walthers 65 ft. version that I already have? Are there any records of which MP-54s were repainted PC green before the SEPTA era when the PC stopped painting them and the rest remained PRR Tuscan red? How many and which ones were repainted? I have pictures of 417 and 700, but that's it. The cars numbers cannot be read in other pictures I have. Does it really matter if the HO models are 54 ft. or 65 ft.? Thanks for your help and opinion. Gene Chase Up pantographs and roll the Owl Eyes MUs. Dream on Gene! Proverbs 3:5-6 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRR MP-54's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 11:23:55 -0400 Content-Length: 2755 Gene, Thats a lot of questions, and I don't know the answer to most of them. The 54 in MP54 refers to the nominal length between vestibules. These were the days when the traffic department ruled, so cars were measured by their revenue space not their overall length. The overall length was, of course, larger. 65 feet sounds about right since the vestibules tended to be 4 feet wide. That would leave 18 inches from the end of the vestibule door to the pulling face of the coupler. TO the best of my knowledge, all the MP54 series cars were the same length, including those which had only one or no vestibules; the MPB54s for example. The Walthers cars are, however, longer than a scale MP54s. Does it matter? Thats a personal call. I still run my Walthers cars, and will until something better comes along or I scratch build some more, or I win the lottery and buy brass. I run the W cars by themselves, and the scale length cars (brass and scratch-built) in another train by themselves so as not to mix the two lengths. As I mentioned to someone else, plans for the MP54 and MPB54 were published by MR in 1976 (I think). I have little interest in how things were painted after the P Co died and can't answer those questions. regards Andy Miller - ------------- >Mr. Miller, > >As you seem to be very knowledgeable concerning PRR MP-54's, I have many >questions. First I assume all the MP-54's (P54's) were 54 feet long, even >the group that was built later, 740-819? These were the 80 cars that were >built in 1927 by the Standard Steel Car Co.as MUs. See p78, PRR Electric >Years. What about the 2-MBM-62A baggage MUs (ibid. p63) ? Were they the >same length? > >Are there plans for building HO 54' MUs available, other than he Walthers >65 ft. version that I already have? > > Are there any records of which MP-54s were repainted PC green before the >SEPTA era when the PC stopped painting them and the rest remained PRR >Tuscan red? How many and which ones were repainted? I have pictures of >417 and 700, but that's it. The cars numbers cannot be read in other >pictures I have. > >Does it really matter if the HO models are 54 ft. or 65 ft.? Thanks for >your help and opinion. > >Gene Chase >Up pantographs and roll the Owl Eyes MUs. Dream on Gene! >Proverbs 3:5-6 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Penn Central MP54's From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 13:59:24 -0400 Content-Length: 2317 Yep, Them's are they. A few interesting observations about these MP54's and MP54's in general. 1. There are several subclasses. The class designations escape me off-hand. They are things like MP54E1, MP54E3 etc. One identifying feature is the ventilators on the car side. Notice one of the 2 cars picture has 2 off-center ventilators. Another common subclass has 3 ventilator on the centerline of the car. 2. Note that MP54 pantographs have only one shoe! Most electrics (like GG-1s) have 2-shoe pans. 3. After the introduction of the Metroliners the PRR began refitting the MP54's with aluminum window frames. The original wooden frames blew out when passed by train doing 120 mph! The fotos you referenced show one of each. 4. Note that one of the cars has 2 red stripes in the first window. (I'm avoiding giving car numbers because the webmaster has confused the issue by swapping the numbers of the cars in the table!). Those indicate a car with automatic train stop. One red stripe indicates a car with cab signals but no ATS. After a certain date, ATS was required on the lead car. The stripes go back to PRR times. The LIRR double deckers were MP72's and were longer than an MP54. Besides which that's a turtle back roof and not what you want for an MP54. Lastly, I have been waiting for 2 years for a F&C double decker. Its indefinatly out of stock at Walthers. Check their web page at www.walthers.com regards Andy Miller >Andy, > >I found 2 pictures of Penn Central MP54's are these the same as the ones the >PRR used? You can find them at: http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/pc/PCpas.html > >I was looking through the 1997 Walthers Catalog last night. On the F&C page, >they have a LIRR Doubledeck coach pictured and it shows the headlight on both >ends. Do you have any idea if that roof would fit the Ping-Pong Coach? > >Thanks, >Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: HELP---Need to select an airbrush Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 14:50:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2059 Oh how I have been repeatedly "pooh pooohed" for not having an airbrush. Alas, it is time! How do y'all feel about Aztec...by Testors? Looking for a decent, all-inclusive starter setup at a price-sensitive price. My main application will be broad spraying...passenger car sides, my Bowser, etc....and batches of parts. Later I will likely want to experiment with weathering. I would be much abliged if someone would take a peak at what I am looking at. Their product comparison Web page is at https://www.testors.com/Aztek/ProdSect/Products.htm . The top-of-the-line kit is #4308 with a retail price of $99. Specs read: ===========(clip)=========== Double action (trigger controls both air and paint), internal mix airbrush with 10' hose. Features: * Patented Aztek Nozzle System for quick effects changes and minimal clean-up * Works as double or single action airbrush * Durable, lightweight body * Pinpoint accuracy control * Lifetime guarantee on airbrush body Use For: * General and precise small detail work A4308 Set * A430 Airbrush & 10' (3 mm) hose * General Detail Nozzle / .53 mm * Medium Coverage Nozzle / .70 mm * Large Coverage Nozzle / 1.02 mm * 7.5 cc Gravity Feed Color Cup * 28 mm Siphon cap & bottle * 33 mm Siphon cap & bottle * Instruction manual & video * Compressor adapter * Wooden storage case ===========(clip)=========== I would initially use it with propellant cans. Any thoughts? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Chase" Subject: Your Great Answers Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:06:15 -0400 Content-Length: 1135 Dear Mr. Andy Miller, Your answers were actually very helpful. That was a lot of great information. Thank you for your time and effort. My present PRR HO MP-54 MU fleet consists of 24 (54T), 483, 566 (54T), 569, 672, 740, 799, 4568 (BE3), and 5290 (MBM). Power units are rubber band, Tyco, and Walthers. I guess there is about 10 actual feet of catenary. In the process of building 517, powered trailor, a very unusual MU with no "owl eyes." By the way you may have noticed that the MP roster in Pennsy Power II, p170, is missing 5288 and 5290 MBMs for some reason. Were they scrap by 1966? Could never figure out why they were left out? Gene Chase Up pantographs and roll the Owl Eyes MUs. Dream on Gene! Proverbs 3:5-6 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: PRR B6sa's Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:33:14 -0400 Content-Length: 622 For those that like PRR B6sa's take a look at this image. Excellent tender detail with a unique camera vantage point. http://www.bluemoon.net/railpix/steamgif/prr_060.gif Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:44:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jpk815@aol.com Subject: PRR MP-54s in N Scale Content-Length: 694 I seem to recall seeing a brass N-scale set of MP-54's a while back... maybe as much as ten years ago. It was in a little hobby shop in Wayne, PA that has since closed. This could be a pipe dream because I was only marginally involved in the hobby then. But I think I'm right... anyone have any insight???? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:16:16 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: PRR MP-54s in N Scale Content-Length: 1118 And now Jpk815@aol.com states: >I seem to recall seeing a brass N-scale set of MP-54's a while back... maybe >as much as ten years ago. It was in a little hobby shop in Wayne, PA that >has since closed. This could be a pipe dream because I was only marginally >involved in the hobby then. But I think I'm right... anyone have any >insight???? You may be referring to one of the brass kits made by Western Railcraft 'way back in the 70s. Most of these were trolley cars, as I recall, but they may have had some steam road stuff- I am not familiar with their entire line. Still, for their period, and for N Scale as it was back then, they were impressive- and American made to boot! Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:42:55 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: MP54 Content-Length: 1677 Hello folks... With all this talk about MP54 cars i thought i'd find my old Mr's. On pages 78 and 79 of the October 1969 issue of Model Railroader it shows plans for a PB54 (54 ft combine) and the MP54e5(MU coach)...drawn by J.Harold Geissel. It shows the old style lettering on the PB54 (no.4546) and the later style on MP54e5(no.505)... it gives the following dimentions.... height from rail to top of roof-13'0" width-9'9 3/4" lenth over coupler faces-64'5 3/4" wheel base-8'8" truck centers-39'9" between truck center and inner end bulkhead-7'3 5/8"for MP54 ( 7'4 5/8"-"A"end of PB54,8'7 1/8"-"B"end of PB54) between bulkhead and coupler face-5'0"for MP54(PB54-4'11 3/4"-"A"end,3'9 1/4 -for "B"end) 36" wheels.... highest working height of pans was 6'0" above roof (19'0"0verall) It shows a side view of both,a roof view of the MP54,a floor plan of the MP54 (coach) both a original and modified end view and interior end view(bulkhead)...also both versions of Pennsy's keystone. Also there is a book called "Plans of PRR freight and passenger cars" it has plans also...i have both...have to get back to you all with the name of the author and publisher... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:48:36 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: More MP54 Content-Length: 695 Almost forgot.... sometimes the unpowered cars were mixed with regular MP54 cars.... I remember riding and seeing them at 30th st station (upper level) Philadelphia in the seventies....guess they had jumper cables on these cars to be able to M.U. H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SSEEEEIINNGG DDOOUUBBLLEE Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 08:14:22 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1745 Thanks for the feedback on the duplicated messages. I am looking into it. Unfortunately, to compound the issue, the listserv locked up yesterday. When I forced it to quit, it lost its tables of who had already received copies of messages still in its queue. Therefore, any message in the queue is/was redistributed to everyone...creating duplicates. This makes it hard to troubleshoot what was duping prior to the lockup. I was not receiving dupes prior. Perhaps the lockup was indicative of an error within the memory of the listserv which was corrected by the restart. We'll see. My apologies for the excess mail. (Hey, the post office would charge to mail multiple copies of a letter....I do it for free!) Something else that caught my eye...one of the messages I received today I posted several days ago...yet it showed that it was sent yesterday. Hmmm. Is it possible someone is posting mail "back" to the list without using a forwarding command (which would change the sender field)? Normal "bounces" are caught by the listserv and not redistributed; however, the current scenario suggests a bounce. Again, sorry. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:00:13 -0400 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: PRR MP-54s in N Scale duplications Content-Length: 663 Greetings, RE duplicate messages, I just received 7 copies of this message. Am not on AOL, connected to Global Connect, local ISP. At 10:16 PM 10/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >And now Jpk815@aol.com states: >Bob >Those Classic Trains Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:15:54 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: LifeLike HO GP9's and various Content-Length: 1254 In a message dated 97-10-22 06:07:02 EDT, you write: << It is my understanding the the reason the 3rd PRR number was produced was because the first two numbers were soldout by preorders. PRR had all three phases of GP-9's plus the GP-9B. Rich Orr >> Rich, My only source for diesel rosters is Pennsy Power II. As I told Derrick, it shows only GP9 phase III A&B units. listing 270 A Units built between 1955 and 1959 numbered 7000-7269 and 40 B units built in 1957 and 1959 in two lots, numbered 7175-7204 and 7230-7239. I take it that not all were Phase III, that the 1955 and 1957 lots were earlier phases. Do you or anyone out there have access to more specic information on which were which. I'll check to see if the Mainline Modeler issues with their extended GP9 story covering all phases with rosters are still available. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:58:31 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Duplicate Mesgs Content-Length: 463 Jerry, Got 5 copies of Rob Boyd's Tuesday 22:16 on n-scale Mp-54's. Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: MP54's Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:02:21 -0500 Content-Length: 862 Andy Miller writes: "Note that the monitor roof of an MP54 is a noticably lower in profile than that of a P70 or a Pullman car. Walthers used to make the correct wooden roof stock but you might have to fabricate roof stock from plastic sheet." I haven't checked the dimensions, but Northeastern may have a roof stock that is worth investigating (I don't have my Walthers catalog in front of me, but do they still sell a clerestory interurban roof?) Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ListServ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 14:43:28 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1395 I've been getting hoards of very polite (thank you) messages about the post duplications. I'm not sure what the problem is, but here's what I'm going to do: At some point (probably Friday, read on...) I am going to instruct my listserv to quit POPing into my mail server to retrieve new posts. It will then - eventually - mail out all the posts that it has in its queue...essentially a fresh start. Don't worry, anything sent to the lists will be held by the mail server until I re-enable the listserv to retrieve again. Nothing will be lost. Why don't I do this tonight? Because my wife has to be at the hospital at 5 p.m. to have labor induced...it's going to be a long night. Should have a new class of rolling stock by morning! 8-) Again, thank you for all of your patience. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 14:30:01 CST Subject: Re: Middle Division Track Plan Content-Length: 1691 On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:06:25 -0400 (ED, wrote: >In John Armstrong's book "20 Custom Designed Track Plans" he indicates a >"Steel Works" at Mufflin between Enola Jct. and Jacks Narrows. Does anyone >know anything about this industry. Is there such a place? and if so is there >a source of photographs etc. I find a "Mifflin" on the map but no "Mufflin, >perhaps a typo or just a made-up place? Mifflin is about 50 some miles west of Harrisburg on the Middle Division. To my knowledge, there has never been a steel plant there. In fact there are no major industries along the PRR in this stretch. In the 19th century, the Pennsy had a significant shop facility here - in fact the main shops until Altoona got up and running. There were a couple of team tracks and a freight warehouse. There IS a large steel plant in Burnham, just north of Lewistown, and it was served by a branch of the PRR - still is under CONRAIL. >I believe I have room to add compressed versions of Huntingdon, Mt. Union, >and Lewistown with an 8 track, 32 foot long staging yard under Altoona >representing Enola and Pittsburg. Sounds great! PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 14:36:53 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 1251 ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Kevin Keefe Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:59:42 -0500 (CD To: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Subject: Re: PRR spread in Nov. issue Hi George: It's up to Mike whether copies, or prints, are available. If you'd like to write him in care of us (he just moved to Colorado, and I doubt if he has e-mail), then we'll be happy to forward it to him. I'm sure he'll get back to you. Thanks. Kevin Keefe, TRAINS Magazine kkeefe@trains.com ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ To all SPFer's, First person to hear from Mike Danneman via TRAINS please post the info, which hopefully will be that copies of the picture are available. PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:57:57 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: class designation for new "rolling stock"? Content-Length: 890 So Jerry writes: >Why don't I do this tonight? Because my wife has to be at the hospital at >5 p.m. to have labor induced...it's going to be a long night. Should have >a new class of rolling stock by morning! 8-) ==== Ok all you Selective Prototype Followers: as we are about to have a new class of rolling stock, we need a proper class designation. Any thoughts on how the PRR would classify this new "rolling stock"? All the best to the prospective family! Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:19:57 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Jerry's "new rolling stock" Content-Length: 595 Hey you all.... Hmmmmm how about....."BB-1g or BB-1m depending on if its a girl or boy.... its their offspring...so hence the "1g or 1m" designation... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:28:33 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: class designation for new "rolling stock"? Content-Length: 889 Any thoughts on how the PRR would classify this new "rolling stock"? I think that we are not dealing with a new class - we are probably looking at a cut of gons: Goo Goo Gaa Gaa or maybe a new class of electric: GooGoo1 (You know the P company wouldn't have any Hudsons - so a 4-6-4 would have to be a Goo - Right?) Maybe a new heavy switcher class: BBy Best of luck to all - just don't see why it would have to interfere with important server type stuff! (sorry for the duplicate, Carl) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: class designation for new "rolling stock"? Content-Length: 1426 In a message dated 97-10-22 18:04:09 EDT, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: << So Jerry writes: >Why don't I do this tonight? Because my wife has to be at the hospital at >5 p.m. to have labor induced...it's going to be a long night. Should have >a new class of rolling stock by morning! 8-) ==== Ok all you Selective Prototype Followers: as we are about to have a new class of rolling stock, we need a proper class designation. Any thoughts on how the PRR would classify this new "rolling stock"? All the best to the prospective family! >> Let's see. Its self propelled so I guess we need to class it as a locomotive. Once it is able to propel itself, it is initially an 0-4-0. However, it grows into a 0-2-2. So that would make it an A6 which is modified so it becomes and A6m. Of course if we use the diesel method it would be BC1x (Britton Child 1 human power) where x is either an m or f depending on the sex. Congratulations to Jerry and his wife and a hearty welcome to another SPF. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:15:50 +0000 Subject: Re: Middle Division Track Plan Content-Length: 903 > There IS a large steel plant in Burnham, just north of Lewistown, > and it was served by a branch of the PRR - still is under CONRAIL. The former Milroy Branch, which now extends only as far as Yeagertown, services Standard Steel, once a subsidiary of Baldwin Locomotive Works. Conrail divested it last year to the family of short lines operated by Dick Robey. It is now named the Juniata Valley Railroad and is operated with a former Pittsburg & Shawmut SW9. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net 1 John 1:9 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bill.laird@coastalcorp.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 5:02:05 -0600 Subject: class designation for new "rolling stock"? -Reply Content-Length: 717 Jerry writes: >Why don't I do this tonight? Because my wife has to be at the hospital at >5 p.m. to have labor induced...it's going to be a long night. Should have >a new class of rolling stock by morning! 8-) Models of the prototype will be available in several scales at your local Toys-R-Us. Bill Laird Still in London ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:27:13 -0400 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: multiple messages Content-Length: 892 Greetings, Got 9 copies of the post from Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:15:54 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com To: SUVCWORR@aol.com cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: LifeLike HO GP9's and various Sender: List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Problem not solved yet????? Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:37:47 -0400 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: colors choice for new "rolling stock"? Content-Length: 620 Greetings, Don't know about class designations but let me suggest the appropriate colors for the new rolling stock. For a female Light tuscan red For a male Brunswick Blue!!!!!!! Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: colors choice for new "rolling stock"? Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 11:39:17 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 688 >Greetings, > > Don't know about class designations but let me suggest the appropriate >colors for the new rolling stock. > > For a female Light tuscan red > > For a male Brunswick Blue!!!!!!! wouldn't that be LBBE (light blue baby enamel :) >Sincerely, > >S.A. McCALL hosam Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: fwd: NS improvements announced for ex-PRR territory Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:12:27 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 6568 While my cynical side notices that this smells like bait dangled (and taken!) to convince Pennsylvania politicos to back the Conrail dissection, it looks like NS is planning major improvements to ex-PRR and ex-Reading facilities. The RoadRailer facility near Zoo should make life even more interesting in the neighborhood. NS has already talked about Roadrailers on the NEC (such lightweight traffic wouldn't beat up the track work like heavy freight does), so this only makes sense. How about RoadRailers through NYC Penn Station to New England for direct CSX competition? Amtrak is about to get rid of the E60s.... This goes along with Father Brown who has said that NS is spending millions to upgrade CR to its standards, and CSX is spending millions to upgrade itself to CR standards. Dennis ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:00:40 -0400 To: nsinfo@nscorp.com From: NSINFO Subject: Norfolk Southern Shows Commitment to Pennsylvania with Creation of Major Economic Development Program Norfolk Southern Shows Commitment to Pennsylvania with Creation of Major Economic Development Program October 22, 1997 Media Contact: Robert Fort (757) 629-2710 NORFOLK, VA -- Building a strong public-private partnership with philadelphia and the commonwealth of pennsylvania, norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today announced that it will create a new economic development program to attract rail-served business to Philadelphia and across Pennsylvania. The announcement came a day after the City and Commonwealth endorsed the acquisition of Conrail Inc. by Norfolk Southern and CSX Corporation (NYSE: CSX). David R. Goode, chairman, president and chief executive officer of Norfolk Southern, thanked Mayor Edward Rendell and Governor Thomas Ridge for their support and pledged that "Norfolk Southern is determined to become an important part of the Commonwealth's business community." Norfolk Southern said it will make a substantial investment over five years to help bring the Norwegian shipbuilder Kvaerner ASA to Philadelphia. Goode congratulated the Governor and the Mayor for their successful efforts in attracting Kvaerner, a major international shipbuilder, to the former Philadelphia Naval Shipyard. As part of the economic development program, Norfolk Southern said it will buy land and construct industrial and rail facilities to encourage rail-served businesses to locate in Pennsylvania. Investments will be made over a five-year period following U.S. Surface Transportation Board (STB) approval of the Conrail acquisition. The railroad's planned investment and capital spending projects in Pennsylvania underscore Norfolk Southern's determination to play a key role in the Commonwealth, Goode said. "This unprecedented public-private partnership demonstrates Norfolk Southern's commitment to Pennsylvania and Philadelphia and to their future economic prosperity," Goode said in a letter to Governor Ridge and Mayor Rendell. "We are excited about the opportunities that lie ahead and look forward to working closely with you." Under an agreement to be signed with the Delaware River Port Authority, Norfolk Southern will operate a new intermodal facility the Authority will build at the AmeriPort Intermodal Terminal at the shipyard, now called the Philadelphia Naval Business Center. In addition, Norfolk Southern and the Philadelphia Industrial Development Corporation (PIDC) will sign a development and marketing agreement under which the railroad will build an automobile unloading facility on 100 acres owned by the City at the former shipyard. Norfolk Southern also announced that 75 employees will fill positions at its Mid-Atlantic Regional headquarters in Philadelphia and said an estimated 150 new rail-related jobs will be created in the Philadelphia area within three years after STB approval. The railroad previously announced the appointment of Craig Lewis, a Philadelphia attorney and former state senator, as regional vice president. Philadelphia will remain as headquarters for Conrail Inc., which will operate the "Shared Assets Areas" that Norfolk Southern and CSX will jointly own. That operation will have 350 positions. In the operating plan filed with the STB, Norfolk Southern identified more than $235 million in capital projects in Pennsylvania. Besides the intermodal terminal and the auto facility, the Philadelphia projects include a new $4 million Triple Crown RoadRailer( facility and a $1.4 million track connection near the Philadelphia Zoo. Elsewhere in Pennsylvania, Norfolk Southern will spend $67 million for improvements at the Altoona and Hollidaysburg shops, $40 million for an intermodal facility in Harrisburg, $31 million for improvements that will increase capacity on the Reading-Harrisburg line and $5 million for an intermodal facility in Allentown. In addition, the railroad plans to build a $30 million locomotive repair shop at Conway Yard near Pittsburgh. Norfolk Southern and CSX on June 23 filed an application with the STB seeking approval of their acquisition of Conrail Inc. in a transaction that will restructure the Eastern rail system and enhance competition throughout the region. With the restructuring, Norfolk Southern will operate more than 21,000 route miles in 22 states, including 2,194 miles in Pennsylvania. The proposed acquisition has drawn support from a dozen governors and thousands of customers, mayors and other public officials throughout the East and Midwest. Norfolk Southern is a Virginia-based holding company with headquarters in Norfolk. It owns a major freight railroad, Norfolk Southern Railway Company, which operates approximately 14,300 miles of road in 20 states, primarily in the Southeast and Midwest, and the Province of Ontario, Canada. The corporation also owns North American Van Lines Inc. and Pocahontas Land Corporation, a natural resources company. Norfolk Southern Corporation http://www.nscorp.com/ ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:06:40 -0400 From: NCAT1 Subject: Sunnside Yards valuation map Content-Length: 606 Hi- Was wondering if anyone could point me in a direction to locate a source of a valuation map of Sunnyside yard. Please respond by Email Thanks - Tom ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:27:43 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Congratulations & More repeats Content-Length: 549 Congratualtions on the birth! On a down note, received 12, yes 12, copies of Dan Cuppers 21:16. Every time I get my mail, it's there. Haunted! Regards, Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:45:50 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: class designation for new "rolling stock"? Content-Length: 757 Greetings to Jerry and the group, How about a 0 - 4 - 0 until he or she is old enough to walk then a 0 - 2 - 0? Yeah, right, you're going to feel like working on the list after an all night delivery. Take a couple days off. You're going to need it when the new locomotive comes home from the shop and into the roundhouse! Best wishes. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:00:06 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: New Equipment Classification Content-Length: 682 Hello all, It just occurred to me that since Jerry is an avid SPF, and as the newborn is the result of a merger of the two parent entities, the child should be named "Conrad" or "Connie" as appropriate. Or am I being too PC? BTW: is the official word out yet? Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New Rolling Stock Status Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 21:36:44 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1528 Ahem... No, the new unit isn't out of the shops yet. Management (the Doc) said to be at the shops (hospital) last night at 5 for fueling (induction). Applied a lube job (cervical gel) and sent crew home for the night. Returned at sunrise for additional lube job, as first application didn't seem to be enough. Crew was sent home again. Returned for afternoon shift and six hours of paint application (petosin drip). Still nothing; crew sent home at 9 p.m. to await further orders. Okay...kid's not due for another week and a half but is already 8-12 or 9 lbs. Doesn't think it'll fit. Tried inducing, but kid kind of likes it warm, and it was only 32 degrees outside today. Unless "natural" labor comes on, we'll be scheduling a C-section for sometime next week. In the mean time, I'm back in the dispatcher's chair! BTW: Am really enjoying the thread on the classification of the newborn. Thanks. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:16:12 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: did they serve SPAM on the Broadway? Content-Length: 3070 Hello all, I hope Jerry will allow a small indulgence in a mild bit of spam: some of you may have heard rumors about our new web site, The Limited. Well, these rumors are true: and I am here to give you the word on it. The Limited is a site specifically devoted to the history and culture of passenger trains (yes, including the PRR- I'll get to that in a minute) as well as modeling of passenger service in the hobby. This site has been on line (thru Jerrys dsop.com) for a couple of weeks now. The worst of the bugs have been ironed out, the structural part is complete, and the content pages are starting to be loaded. I have just finished uploading "The Race To Chicago", a page in "The Railroads" section which includes material on Lines West. (Pennsy material will be scattered thru a total of 5 or 6 pages by time this is done!) In light of this, I daresay the time has come to make the formal announcement. I hope all of you will tune in to The Limited at: http://www.thoseclassictrains.com The site is not listed on the search engines yet, so if you have problems getting there, you can access thru an icon on Keystone Crossings home page. Some thoughts about this site: Telling the story of passenger railroading is a monstrous task. Perforce, I have set this up as a group effort. I am setting up a structure of articles including a brief header about the railroad or route, followed by thumbnail sketches of specific trains, followed by notes on equipment, operations and click-to illustrations. While I have a lot of this info here in our library, it will take forever for me to dig it out. So I am opening this site up to everyone who wants to contribute data. Look on "the Odds & Ends Page", on the main page, for info. This throws the ball in your lap. How much data gets in (and how soon) will depend heavily on the enthusiasts out there in cyber-fandom. Put in your speak so that the story of the PRR passenger era can be heard! You don't need to have the original Corporate Records of the "P" company to join in, and those who do contribute material will receive a credit on the site. I would like to thank Rich Orr, Harry Fitch IV and Tom V for their contributions to date (even if I did misspell your name, Tom!) I hope this site will prove enjoyable and useful to PRR modelers. BTW: Jeff Aley: please get in touch with me! Your offer of help with the UP is most welcome, but I don't happen to have your address on hand. Well, back to the drawing board. Jerry, just be thankful we don't do this website stuff with telegraph! All my best, Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:58:19 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: did they serve SPAM on the Broadway? Content-Length: 4475 Jerry, this is the first note that I received multiples of - and when I say multiples, I mean over 9 so far - and still counting. I'm not sure why this one is coming through as multiples while all the others that came through in multiples for other folk came through singlely for me. It's no real problem, I don't have to worry that much about access fees and the like - I use this account for business & fun and get well over 200 messages a day, so I have become a little more adept at manual filtering - but for others it might be a larger issue. Maybe it's like the food Spam - it just keeps coming up after you have digested it? Good luck on your upcoming event, hope the new unit arrives without dents or other problems that happens upon receipt of a new class from the manufacturer. (I wonder if they have traveling engineers for these new units?) Best wishes, Bob At 10:16 PM 10/23/97 -0500, Robert A. Boyd wrote: >Hello all, > >I hope Jerry will allow a small indulgence in a mild bit of spam: some of >you may have heard rumors about our new web site, The Limited. Well, >these rumors are true: and I am here to give you the word on it. > >The Limited is a site specifically devoted to the history and culture of >passenger trains (yes, including the PRR- I'll get to that in a minute) as >well as modeling of passenger service in the hobby. > >This site has been on line (thru Jerrys dsop.com) for a couple of weeks >now. The worst of the bugs have been ironed out, the structural part is >complete, and the content pages are starting to be loaded. > >I have just finished uploading "The Race To Chicago", a page in "The >Railroads" section which includes material on Lines West. (Pennsy >material will be scattered thru a total of 5 or 6 pages by time this is >done!) > >In light of this, I daresay the time has come to make the formal >announcement. I hope all of you will tune in to The Limited at: > >http://www.thoseclassictrains.com > >The site is not listed on the search engines yet, so if you have problems >getting there, you can access thru an icon on Keystone Crossings home page. > >Some thoughts about this site: > >Telling the story of passenger railroading is a monstrous task. Perforce, >I have set this up as a group effort. I am setting up a structure of >articles including a brief header about the railroad or route, followed by >thumbnail sketches of specific trains, followed by notes on equipment, >operations and click-to illustrations. > >While I have a lot of this info here in our library, it will take forever >for me to dig it out. So I am opening this site up to everyone who wants >to contribute data. Look on "the Odds & Ends Page", on the main page, for >info. > >This throws the ball in your lap. How much data gets in (and how soon) >will depend heavily on the enthusiasts out there in cyber-fandom. Put in >your speak so that the story of the PRR passenger era can be heard! You >don't need to have the original Corporate Records of the "P" company to >join in, and those who do contribute material will receive a credit on the >site. > >I would like to thank Rich Orr, Harry Fitch IV and Tom V for their >contributions to date (even if I did misspell your name, Tom!) I hope this >site will prove enjoyable and useful to PRR modelers. > >BTW: Jeff Aley: please get in touch with me! Your offer of help with the >UP is most welcome, but I don't happen to have your address on hand. > >Well, back to the drawing board. Jerry, just be thankful we don't do this >website stuff with telegraph! > >All my best, > >Bob >Those Classic Trains > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Multiples UPDATE Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 09:49:38 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1496 I have a query in to the publisher of my listserv software about the "multiples" issue. Some facts that make this interesting (while it's annoying): 1) "PRR-Talk" is the only one of my three lists affected. 2) Multiples are not showing up in digests, so it is not a "loop" back to the list. 3) Multiples are served randomly and irregularly...one person gets three of one message but only one of another...It's not like user "A" gets three messages each time and user "B" gets only one each time. 4) The subscriber list looks fine...no duplications. 5) The server has been rebooted...clearing out any problems in RAM. Personally, I'm stumped. Hopefully I'll get some feedback from the publisher and its support list. BTW: The server was down to only four messages in the queue...it had been running in the 20s. I was hoping that clearing the queue would clear the problem. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: "Shark" for Sale Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 11:40:35 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 960 In the past weeks, I have picked up two powered A unit "Sharks" via the eBay auction (). For those not familiar with the auction, you need to get acquainted!!! Anyway, there's yet another for sale. See: Item #: 1352320 Close Date: 10/31/97 06:23:04 Starting Bid: 24.99 Description: HO Scale SHARK NOSE DIESEL LOCOMOTIVE I picked mine up for $45 and $36. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: What is eBay? Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 12:17:01 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1432 I've gotten several queries to the effect of "What is eBay?". Though I hate to create bidding competition for myself, heck, we are an SPF community, right? eBay is an online auction. Sellers post items for sale at auction. No item is up for auction longer than seven days, so you need to frequent the site regularly. The main page of the site explains the whole thing, so see http://cayman.ebay2.com . There are many categories of products for sale, but two of interest to SPFs: Railroadiana at http://cayman.ebay2.com/aw/listings/list/category130/index.html and Railroad Models at http://cayman.ebay2.com/aw/listings/list/category131/index.html . I picked up the "Pullman Standard Library Vol. 4" via the auction, a timetable, and most recently two Model Power "Shark" powered A units. It's great, but addicting! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:21:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Subject: Re: class designation for new "rolling stock"? Content-Length: 886 In a message dated 97-10-24 12:13:14 EDT, you write: > How about a 0 - 4 - 0 until he or she is old enough to walk then a 0 - 2 - 0? > I dont know how this can relate to railroads but perhaps we should call the new one "Grandpa". Its got no hair, got no teeth and cant hold its water!! But seriously folks, when my sons were born, I brought them home from the hospital wrapped in Pullman towels and the second one wrapped in a Pullman blanket. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:29:23 EST5EDT Subject: "Shark" for Sale-another auction too Content-Length: 690 >In the past weeks, I have picked up two powered A unit "Sharks" via the eBay auction (). For those not familiar with the auction, you need to get acquainted!!! There is another auction which is real new, it is at: www.auctioncom.com They have 2 sections also: Model RR and RRiana Collector items ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:42:00 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 892 At 11:40 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >In the past weeks, I have picked up two powered A unit "Sharks" via the >eBay auction (). > Also look at: http://206.79.255.82/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1339344 Description ALCO BALDWIN B DUMMY BRASS. Unit has slight tarnish, no couplers, very good condition. Not in original box, but in a box with new foam. Buyer pays $3.50 S&H cont. US. I'm not sure which one it is - but might be worth checking on - I know Alco did sharks.... ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 12:26:24 CST Subject: Is this true???? Content-Length: 1515 Hi, everyone, Maybe it's because of my least favorite holiday coming up next weekend, but in reading through TRIUMPH I again, I came across a bit which seems almost too grotesque to be true. Somewhere in the section on Horseshoe Curve, Roberts once again starts hitting on T1's, only this time he adds that he heard stories to the effect that some fireman who went back into the tender to loosen coal in the pile so it could flow down into the stoker screw would somehow get caught in the screw and literally spewwed into the firebox! Roberts claims that their cries for help went unanswered because of the construction of the tender and the diaphragm connecting it with the engine, all of which made it almost impossible for anyone in the tender to be heard by the engine crew. Like so many other parts of the book, Roberts does not cite sources for this. Has anyone ever heard or seen anything to confirm this story?? I promise you I didn't make this up for Halloween. PRR forever! Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Is this true???? Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 15:11:50 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2277 On 10/24/97 2:26 PM, George Pierson (George.Pierson@trnty.edu) wrote: >Maybe it's because of my least favorite holiday coming up next weekend, but >in reading through TRIUMPH I again, I came across a bit which seems almost >too grotesque to be true. Somewhere in the section on Horseshoe Curve, >Roberts once again starts hitting on T1's, only this time he adds that he >heard stories to the effect that some fireman who went back into the tender >to loosen coal in the pile so it could flow down into the stoker screw >would somehow get caught in the screw and literally spewwed into the >firebox! Roberts claims that their cries for help went unanswered because >of the construction of the tender and the diaphragm connecting it with the >engine, all of which made it almost impossible for anyone in the tender to >be heard by the engine crew. Like so many other parts of the book, Roberts >does not cite sources for this. Has anyone ever heard or seen anything to >confirm this story?? I promise you I didn't make this up for Halloween. I, too, read this in TRIUMPH I and wondered if anyone else had heard of this. I had intended to bring it to the list's attention, but had forgotten. The book implies that this type of accident had happened more than once and that the Pennsy kept it "under wraps" for many, many years. I always thought -- as steamers were concerned -- that the T1 was magnificent...this book implies otherwise. Overall, though, the book is excellent. There are seven planned for the series. TRIUMPH II, I believe, concerns the B&O's race to Pittburgh. A later volume will deal with the PRR Middle Division. 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:29:15 EST5EDT Subject: detailed documentation pertaining to the railroads Content-Length: 8699 ICC RAILROAD VALUATION RECORDS FACT SHEET I don't remember where I picked this info up, but it may be helpful to those trying to get info on some routes: Bill The valuation records created by the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) provide detailed documentation pertaining to the railroads of the United States from their beginning until the 1960's. Most of these valuation records were created during the period 1915 to 1920 by ICC and railroad employees who undertook a massive project to inventory almost every aspect of the existing railroad system in the United States. The valuation records in the custody of the National Archives are part of Record Group 134, Records of the Interstate Commerce Commission. These records total approximately 11,000 cubic feet and are divided into two general subdivisions: the basic val u ation records and the period updates. The basic valuation records will allow a researcher to obtain for the period 1915-20 information about the railroad facilities existing at a particular location, the land owned by a railroad and how it was acquired, the land adjacent to railroad property, and the financial history of the railroad from its earliest operations to the date of basic valuation. Periodic updating records allow a researcher to follow changes in facilities from the date of basic valuation a nd changes in the financial condition of the railroad corporation to the 1960's. In addition, the records will allow a researcher to determine the specific rolling stock held by a railroad for the period from basic valuation to the 1960's. Such information, however, is not contained in any single type of record. The general subject categories of the records are land, engineering, and accounting reports and supporting documentation. The following is a brief description of the types of valuation records in the custody of the National Archives: 1. Engineering Field Notes: Notes concerning grading, ballast, ties, track, and all railroad structures. The three main types of notes are the chaining notes, the bridge and building notes, and inventories of furnishings. The chaining notes detail every mile of railroad. These notes provide detailed descriptions of the railroad right-of-way, giving to the nearest foot the location of crossings, culverts, bridges, and the intersection of railroad track. The bridge and building notes, if they are of high quality, contain detailed descriptions of structures and are frequently supplemented by photographs and/or blueprints. 2. Equipment and Machinery Schedules: Schedules were submitted by railroads as inventories of their holdings of various types of equipment, including steam locomotives and rolling stock. Schedules exist for some smaller railroads mostly in the southeastern USA. A list of schedules is available. 3. Final Engineering Report: Reports summarize the information in the engineering field notes concerning the fixed property of railroads and rolling stock. The final engineering reports are maintained with the Valuation Dockets and also separately. 4. Detailed Land Maps: Almost all of the maps are 25" by 54" and cover either one half mile, a mile, two miles, three miles, or four miles of track. They contain many engineering details such as the layout of track and the locations of buildings and bridges. 5. Land Acquisition Forms: Forms detailing the acquisition of each parcel of land the railroad is using for common-carrier purposes that is part of the right-of-way covered by the map as well as some parcels not being used for that purpose. Equipment and Machinery Schedules are sometimes included with these forms. 6. Grant Forms: Forms recording grants to railroads by the federal, state, or local governments, corporations, and individuals. Some grants were for common-carrier purposes and others were for financial considerations. 7. Leasing Forms: Forms recording leases of railroad-owned land to individuals, corporations, and municipalities. 8. Land Appraisal Field Notes: Notes compiled by the ICC to determine the current value of land adjacent to railroad right-of- ways. Each note pertains to a land appraisal zone, which was established at each point where property adjacent to a railroad right-of-way changed in value. Each note describes the land in the zone and provides an estimate of its, then, current value per acre or per square foot. 9. Final Land Reports: Reports summarizing some information in the land acquisition forms and land field notes concerning the land owned or rented by railroads. They provide compilations of the alue of land used by railroads for common-carrier purposes. Perhaps, most importantly, they serve as a finding aid to the valuation records. The final land report enables one to identify he relevant engineering field notes, the maps, the land acquisition schedules, the grant schedules, and the land appraisal report regarding a specific location. The final land reports are maintained with the Valuation Dockets and also separately. 10. Statements about Railroads: Usually consist of charts showing the corporate organization of railroads. In some cases, the statements include a narrative history of the railroad. The narrative histories are only available for some railroads. 11. Accounting Schedules and Related Records: The schedules provide extensive financial data covering subjects such as profit and loss, cost of construction, bonds issued and retired, and securities purchased and sold. Related records exist mostly for the smaller railroads and include material relating to the their financial histories. 12. Formal Valuation Dockets: Dockets recording the formal administrative proceedings during which the ICC reached a valuation decision concerning a railroad. The dockets contain the engineering, land, and accounting final reports which contain summary information based on the findings of the valuation supporting documentation. 13. Periodic Forms Updating Final Engineering Reports: The first update forms cover over a decade, but the railroads were subsequently required to submit annual updates. 14. Periodic Forms Updating Final Land Reports: The first update forms cover over a decade, but the railroads were subsequently required to submit annual updates. These forms covered the major acquisitions or sale of land used for common-carrier purposes. 15. Annual Financial Report Forms: Annual reports submitted after the basic valuation of the railroads. They update the financial information gathered on the railroads during the basic valuation. 16. Inspection Reports Compiled: Reports compiled by the ICC during the late 1930's and early 1940's. Many of these reports contain numerous photographs about the facet of the railroad's operation being inspected. They do not, however, cover many railroads. Most of these types of records are inter-related. For example, the final land reports serve as a finding aid to information found in the engineering records. Also, researchers interested in maps of a specific locality should consult the chaining notes in the engineering field notes as well as the detailed land maps. There are several types of information needed to gain access to the railroad valuation records. The name of the railroad during the period 1915-20 and the location of the town or geographical area in question are necessary to gain access to the records. The number of the valuation section, the milepost (and station) numbers, and the map numbers are helpful but not required to begin research. In most cases, the available finding aids give this information. For further information concerning research in the railroad valuation records, please contact the Archives II Textual Reference Branch, National Archives in College Park, 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, MD 20740, telephone (301) 713-7250. The railroad valuation maps are available from the Cartographic Branch, National Archives at College Park, telephone (301) 713-7040. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: New Rolling Stock Status Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:07:30 -0400 Content-Length: 753 We have three boys and they do ROLL before they crawl and walk. Therefore they perhaps qualify as "rolling stock". I would put them in the MOW equipment roster because of their tendency to spray liquids on the ROW, require special handling, do not get interchanged and definitely do not produce revenue. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:18:21 -0700 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: PRR MP-54s in N Scale Content-Length: 809 At 09:44 PM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >I seem to recall seeing a brass N-scale set of MP-54's a while back... maybe >as much as ten years ago. [ ... ] Yep, there used to be one in a hobby shop near here that I lusted over but never bought; it was a combine and I didn't want that to be the whole of the fleet. Dunno the manufacturer, it was in a locked cabinet. Might've been Hallmark, but that's a guess. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:38:12 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Pullman towels Content-Length: 692 >But seriously folks, when my sons were born, I brought them >home from the hospital wrapped in Pullman towels and the >second one wrapped in a Pullman blanket. > >Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ===== DO YOU STILL HAVE THEM?!?!?!?!?! (the blankets, I mean) Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:20:03 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 1156 Jerry Britton wrote: > > In the past weeks, I have picked up two powered A unit "Sharks" via the > eBay auction (). > > For those not familiar with the auction, you need to get acquainted!!! > I've been keeping an eye on e-bay the last couple weeks as well, and saw you bidding on the 2nd shark--I'm glad you got them. I would have bid too, but it was tuscan, and I'm planning to model '49. Are all the Model Power units tuscan? Are they decent runners? > Anyway, there's yet another for sale. See: > Item #: 1352320 > Close Date: 10/31/97 06:23:04 > Starting Bid: 24.99 > Description: HO Scale SHARK NOSE DIESEL LOCOMOTIVE > This shark is not a Pennsy (it's a CN). Break out the paint! -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:27:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: steel mills, modelling, and other fun Content-Length: 1267 Lesse.... I'll try to get all of this into one post instead of posting piecemeal. First of all: What steel mills were on-line customers of the PRR? I'm not looking for comprehensive, just a list of "ideas". I assume the Lukens mill in Coatesville has been there a while, even if not always owned by the current owners... Edgar Thompson in Braddock/North Braddock (though I can't think where there was a direct lead, if there was one) There were a bunch of Bethlehem mills around Johnstown... The USS Homestead and Duquesne Works, and the McKeesport (National Tube) plants.... I know there are others, not just in PA but elsewhere, especially around Chicago and Gary, but I'm drawing a blank. Also: Anyone have an HO Walthers SW1 decorated Pennsy to sell or even trade? And, good luck Jerry with your new addition... hopefully all with go well... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:31:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 1409 On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Jerry Shickler wrote: > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > In the past weeks, I have picked up two powered A unit "Sharks" via the > > eBay auction (). > > > > For those not familiar with the auction, you need to get acquainted!!! > > > I've been keeping an eye on e-bay the last couple weeks as well, and saw > you bidding on the 2nd shark--I'm glad you got them. I would have bid > too, but it was tuscan, and I'm planning to model '49. Are all the > Model Power units tuscan? Are they decent runners? > All those I've seen are, but take heart... The Model Power shark is actually a Roco (it's on the fuel tank) and E-R Models (an importer) is going to be importing the Shark now, presumably with a more prototypical paint scheme (I'm pulling for 5 stripe DGLE). The M-P Shark I've actually run of the 8 or so I have runs well; It's an unmodified drive. It's not state of the art, but it's not terribly sleazy either, IMHO. I wouldn't pay $82 for it.(or whatever list is) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Benn" Subject: Re: steel mills, modeling, and other fun Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:31:01 +0900 Content-Length: 6406 Greetings from Japan! First contribution from this newbie, been reading intently for some time now and the beginning of this thread stirred thoughts of home with the mention of "Mifflin". I hail from Mifflin county, Milroy to be exact, the end of the Milroy branch that I will model someday anchored to the Middle Division at Lewistown. Lot's of memories there from way(???) back in the late 1960's (that puts me at 37yrs). There was and is a steel mill served by PRR through today's Conrail on the xMilroy branch, now the Lewistown secondary I believe, actually located in Burnham, PA. Standard Steel, a division of Allegheny Ludlum when my father worked there years back. Surely many of you know about this mill, I believe they supplied drivers for a steam locomotive manufacturer (sorry, child of diesel) during the reign of steam. In the 70s and early 80s, and I've not heard to the contrary, the also were/are a major producer of RR wheels in major competition with Bethlehem Steel in Johnstown. I remember returning from Philmont Scout Ranch in 1972 on the Southwest Limited from Raton NM to Chicago and somewhere W of Kansas City we derailed the last 5 or so cars of the train. One of the Scout Masters, Chuck Cruikshank was very quick to check the stamp on the inside of the wheels to see if by some terrible fate they had been manufactured by "the Standard". The also produce axles. The Standard also produces allot of "rings" for jet engines, Saturn rockets(no, not any recently) and other high tech applications with some very specialized alloys. They make their steel from scrap, brought in by a wide variety of gons, stage it all in various heaps, and move around the plant with a fleet of really decrepit gons. In my high school days they used some old switcher power that got some RF press attention and now have converted over to remote control ops. Outbound product is/was shipped in gons, with on site racks from made from wood to fit the particular load, especially for the larger rings. Boxcars were also used. Also on the Steel mill thread, there was a large limestone quarry in operation until the Agnes floods of 1972 with a huge crusher, washer, sizer?, and loader. That's the operation that most inspires me from my youth. Every evening when I was visiting my grand parents in Naginey, out from Pittsburgh for a month or two in the summer, the routine was wash for supper, then to the back porch to sit and wait for the days train. God if I could remember the type of diesels used, but blank other than 3-4 units, probably from early GPs to say GP30/35s. They would bring a string of about 60 or so hoppers for the next days loading. H43s I believe, with the large yellow dots (sorry, that's what sticks in my memory). They would cut the cabin on the fly on the small concrete bridge in the pasture just behind my Grandparents house, move up to the lead tracks that were elevated on the other side of the county road (small, but paved!) and split the string into 2 cuts. They might also have a boxcar or two for the two grain mills up in Milroy at the end of the line where there was a "Y" behind the Lutheran church on the south end of town, one leg of which border the local elementary school yard. End of line. Next day, the loading ops were equally fascinating! 2-3 cars, with a brake wheel rider, would cut them and move with gravity under the crusher/loader, then down another 50 yards to the scale house, then cross the county road again, and after some moments of silence a loud bang would shutter the woods when the came to rest against the cut being assembled for pick-up that evening. God I love railroading! The limestone, I'm fairly certain was headed for the sprawling Sparrows Point plant of Bethlehem Steel just outside (SE) of Baltimore. More information may be available in a RP article that Todd Treaster, another local from the county got published several years back. Well, too long, not enough details, let me know. I could spend some more time putting together some more info on the subject or just shut up and let it pass. I'd love to hear from someone with knowledge of ops on this branch though, or even the Bald Eagle secondary, especially the Bellefonte area. My grandfather spotted cars for what has been know at some time as Centre Limestone over in Pleasant Gap until his retirement in the early 70s. ---------- > From: Derrick J Brashear > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: steel mills, modelling, and other fun > Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 12:27 PM > > Lesse.... I'll try to get all of this into one post instead of posting > piecemeal. > > First of all: > What steel mills were on-line customers of the PRR? I'm not looking for > comprehensive, just a list of "ideas". I assume the Lukens mill in > Coatesville has been there a while, even if not always owned by the > current owners... > > Edgar Thompson in Braddock/North Braddock (though I can't think where > there was a direct lead, if there was one) > > There were a bunch of Bethlehem mills around Johnstown... > > The USS Homestead and Duquesne Works, and the McKeesport (National Tube) > plants.... > > I know there are others, not just in PA but elsewhere, especially around > Chicago and Gary, but I'm drawing a blank. > > Also: > Anyone have an HO Walthers SW1 decorated Pennsy to sell or even trade? > > And, good luck Jerry with your new addition... hopefully all with go > well... > > -D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:04:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: RE; Middle Division Track Plan Content-Length: 2195 Summary to date and more questions Thanks to Carl Haslett, Dan Cupper, George Pierson, Bill Laird, Derrick Brashear, and Jerry Britton for their responses. There is a West Mifflin south of Pittsburg(h), a Mifflin and Mifflintown in Juniata County along the Middle Division and a Mifflin County in which Lewistown is located. All apparently named after former Governer Mifflin. There is a steel mill but not at Mifflin but rather at Burnham on the Milroy Branch north of Lewistown. In John Armstrong's design he borrowed a Bethleham open hearth and rolling mill and transplanted it to Mifflin (Haven?). The mill at Burnham is Standard Steel presently a Division of Alleganheny Ludlam and a former subsidiary of Baldwin Locomotive Works. The plant supplied locomotive drivers during the age of steam and wheels and axles during the 1970-80s. Bethleham Steel operated the Steelton Plant just down the road? There was a significant shop facility at Mifflin in the 19th century, the main shops until Altoona was up and running. One of the respondants mentioned evidence of heavy industry there, perhaps this is what he was observing. The Depot is still standing at Mifflin, but is not a stop. There was also a large limestone quarry and crusher in this area until the Agnus flood. The crusher supplied limestone to Bethlehams Sparrow Point plant outside of Baltimore. There was also 2 grain mills in Milroy, are they still there? I also read recently that there were stock watering facilities at Huntingdon, anyone have any info on this? Was raw ore ever used at the steel plant at Burnham? I presume that Jacks Narrows located where the Juniata cuts through Jacks Mountain just west of Mt. Union, is this true? Harold McGee Gainesville, Florida Modeling the PRR in 1916 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:34:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Railroading Magazine Content-Length: 1471 I recently acquired a copy of the April 1946 edition of Railroad Magazine which was their PRR Centennial issue and featured 20 pages of photograph and woodcut from the 19th century and early 20th century. Inclusions of note were: Official photographers train pulled by a 4-4-0 in the Juniata Narrows along side the Pennsylvania Canal The Brick factory at York Haven Lewistown Narrows at the location of the dramatic one-man train robbery in 1909 when a masked bandit stopped and looted the Pittsburg & Newton Express. Ironically, he passed up a million dollars in low-denomination bank notes for a heavy sack containing 65$ in Lincoln pennies. Spruce Creek Tunnel at the turn-of-the-century Panoramic view 4 trains on the curve when it was just 2 tracks Ballaire Nail Works Harrisburg Multi-cupola Enginehouse in 1880 1880 view of the Harrisburg Station with P&R, Northern Central, PRR and Cumberland Valley 8-wheelers. If any one is interested to Caboose Motel in Strasburg still has some issues for sale at 2$ each. Harold Modeling the PRR in 1916 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:57:28 EDT Subject: Re: Passenger Car Numbering Content-Length: 949 In a message dated 97-10-22 08:10:39 EDT, dfresh20@erols.com (Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater) writes: << I've been through the PRRT&HS "Passenger Car Painting and Lettering" book and am stumped. In about 47, the PRR shifted from one number on the centerline of coaches back to two numbers on either end. What distance from the ends, or other feature, were these numbers? >> The only referrence I have found to these numbers shows that the were centered on the centerline of the truck. There is no measurement given for the vertical location. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:19:45 EDT Subject: Re: steel mills, modelling, and other fun Content-Length: 660 To your list of steel mills served by the PRR add; J&L Southside works (Pittsburgh), Heppenstall Steel and Edgewater Steel (Allegheny Valley branch Pittsburgh), American Bridge (Ambridge Pa), Allegheny Ludlum (Brackenridge, PA), Wheeling-Pittsburgh (Wheeling WVa) Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCW ORR Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:21:32 EDT Subject: Re: steel mills, modelling, and other fun Content-Length: 736 In a message dated 97-10-24 23:36:59 EDT, shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG (Derrick J Brashear) writes: << Edgar Thompson in Braddock/North Braddock (though I can't think where there was a direct lead, if there was one) >> PRR interchanged with the Union RR (US Steel's line) in Wilmerding. All internal plant trackage was/is Union RR tracks. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:26:13 EDT Subject: Re: Is this true???? Content-Length: 1026 In a message dated 97-10-24 15:02:06 EDT, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: >somehow get caught in the screw and literally spewwed into the >firebox! Roberts claims that their cries for help went unanswered Railroaders being railroaders, I can imagine anything happening once, but cannot imagine this being repeated. There would have been wholesale refusal by engine crews to accept T1's, which would have led to the engines being either withdrawn from service or having some kind of alterations done on a fleet basis. I have no facts to support this, and would be interested in hearing from anyone who does. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:45:05 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: Is this true???? Content-Length: 2556 At 12:26 PM 10/24/97 CST, George Pierson wrote: > ... in reading through TRIUMPH I again, I came across a bit which seems >almost >too grotesque to be true. Somewhere in the section on Horseshoe Curve, >Roberts once again starts hitting on T1's, I haven't yet looked at a copy of Roberts's new book, although I indend to do so in the near future. Although the comments on it here and elsewhere in cyberspace have been positive, I've also heard some negative comments, most of which are critical of the author's "anectodal" style ... which can be both entertaining _and_ dangerously subjective. I've read, and re-read, and re-re-read all of Roberts's books on the B&O ... he is _NOT_ a great lover of the P-Co. ... "for what those nasty Yankees did to the B&O" and I have to wonder if George's extract on firemen being drawn to firey deaths by the T1 stoker is a bit of oral history that Roberts latched onto in a quest to further defame our favorite railroad. Who knows that there may be, buried in some cardboard box in the depths of the Lewisburgh Jct. depot, one or more reports ... certainly one would think, that given the relatively short service life of the T1's, it would not take too much digging to find a story or two in the Altoona newspaper microfilm ... or a record of such an incident in the archives of the RR'ers memorial museum in Altoona ... after all, the exhibits there are dedicated to the people who worked the RR. Just some thoughts, Vagel Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Re: SW-1 question Content-Length: 1132 Hello to all, In response to the question on the Walthers SW-1 being available anywhere. I know of one place that still had a few of them and they are new in the box from this dealer. This is a tough one to give out cause I was wanting to purchase one myself, but find myself up to my ears in debt right now (read layaway: Proto 2000 PRR GP9 all three numbers, Proto 2000 PRR E7A both numbers, Proto 2000 PRR E7B, and an undecorated Proto 2000 E8). So after that is said and done consider this a sacrifice. Dealer is: Nixon Enterprises 73 Manor Drive Richboro, PA 18954 Phone #: (215)357-4379 Best of luck on these. Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future Phil. 4:8 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:41:28 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 957 Some questions: 1. How accurate (and desired) is the MP FA - I do know they are something of a 1 and something of a 2... 2. What is the going price for a MP Shark, Shark Dummy, B-units, FA, etc. 3. A question that's been out there before - but How do people feel about the color for (someone's got to say it) Brunswick Green from Accupaint? 4. What about prices for MP E8s? You might be wondering why I ask the questions - well, I might be able to locate some Sharks & FAs painted in Accupaint (both 5 & single stripes) and E8s in accupaint Tuscan. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:41:04 -0400 (EDT) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: Amtrak 41 !0/24 Content-Length: 475 Amtrak 41 passed Paoli this afternoon 10/24 with a dome car up front between two baggage cars. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:56:49 -0400 From: Lawrence Smith Subject: Lewistown & Sunbury R.R. Content-Length: 527 Hey Guys, Could anyone give me some light on where I can find information about the Lewistown & Sunbury R.R. Thanks in advance, Brandon Smith ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Steel Mills Content-Length: 2349 Hello all... Here are a couple more steel mills served by the prr(conrail now)in Maryland. The Armco steel works on the east side of Baltimore between the north end of Union tunnel and Orangeville...(north of the highlandtown section of Baltimore) This is right on the NEC main line.still there but not sure if it is still Amrco steel. Then there is the huge Bethleham sparrows point Steel plant and shipyard at Sparrows Point (southeastern Baltimore county)just out side of Baltimore. This plant did everthing..made rolled steel,coiled steel,steel ingots,used iron ore,built ships,etc.(they must have had a lot of traffic for ship parts and equipment that could not be made there.) This was(is still)a major shipper for PRR(conrail now). This plant was served from a branch off of the northend of Bayview yard. This branch runs to a yard about 1-2 miles from the steel plant. Here the steel yards own trains picked up cars and such..(well last i heard they did) This is the Patapsco and Backrivers(neck?) RR...(LifeLike makes a gondola for this road.) Also there was a PRR and B&O connection from the Canton section of Baltimore (Via Orangeville)that ran near the harbor...past the current Dundalk Marine Terminal(a airport in steam days)and over a bridge to the south end of plant...both railroads had their own right of way on this route. at one time the PRR ran local passenger trains to the plant. These trains were taken off in the 1915-1925 time period...so it shows that this plant was VERY busy... This plant was the largest(might still be)integrated steel mill in the world at one time. most of their ore and coke was brought in by ship right to the plant(they had their own fleet of ships for this)so in later years there would have to have been less and less RR traffic for those type of loads... Hank Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:12:48 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: T1 tales Content-Length: 1526 >In a message dated 97-10-24 15:02:06 EDT, George.Pierson@trnty.edu writes: > >>somehow get caught in the screw and literally spewwed into the >>firebox! Roberts claims that their cries for help went unanswered ===== Technically, I suppose this can happen on any stoker equipped engine- at least to getting a leg caught in the stoker and chewed up. I rather doubt the part about the fireman being drawn thru and into the firebox! Getting a foot caught in the stoker was likely one of those things that could happen on occasion (the tender would have to be pretty close to empty) but likely was something crews were always careful about- so it didn't happen in practice very often. In line with that, many of the large later engines were fitted with coal pushers on the back of the bunker- perhaps specifically for this reason? Some day, someone ought to write a book called "Tall Tales Of The High Iron" full of 'stuff' like this- but it doesn't belong in a serious historical reference book! Still, it could be worse: does anyone remember "Tragic Train" from Superior Publishing? Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:46:58 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Is this true???? Content-Length: 1091 George Pierson wrote: > > Roberts....adds that he > heard stories to the effect that some fireman who went back into the tender > to loosen coal in the pile so it could flow down into the stoker screw > would somehow get caught in the screw and literally spewwed into the > firebox! Karl Kantola, a Mechanical Equipment (locomotive design) on the New York Central told of mishaps to hobos riding the rear of tenders in Winter being drenched from the overspray at track pans and frozen to the handrails, as well as falling off into a track pan and being scooped into the cistern by a following train. Accidents to personnel on railroads are not frequent, but generally severe. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: Re: Tales Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:07:59 -0500 Content-Length: 953 Bob, et. al.: "Tall tales"...? In the days of the 'hobo" riding the rails, wintertime found them riding the rear of the tender to "keep warm"; only to be frozen to death in a block of ice when the engine took water on the run... This is a true tale, it was related to me by an eye witness... PRR-Talk.. want a "book" ... you feed 'em, I'll compile 'em... don -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Boyd To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 4:33 PM Subject: T1 tales ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:36:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Lewistown & Sunbury R.R. Content-Length: 2833 > Hey Guys, > Could anyone give me some light on where I can find information > about the Lewistown & Sunbury R.R. > Thanks in advance, > Brandon Smith Brandon, It was called the Sunbury & Lewistown, and it extended about 43 miles from Lewistown (Chestnut Street), where it connected with the Milroy Branch (which gave it access to Lewistown Junction and the PRR main line), to Selinsgrove Jct. on the former Northern Central Railway main line, which is today Conrail's Buffalo Line. PRR leased it (gained control) even before it was opened, which was Dec. 1, 1871. In 1900 it was merged into a PRR subsidiary named the Schuylkill & Juniata Railroad Co., and in 1902 it was simply made part of the PRR corporate structure. Under direct PRR control, it was called the Lewistown Branch, and later had various other names (Selinsgrove Secondary Track for the east end, for example). It was part of the Wilkes-Barre Division, but later, especially after PRR's divisional structure was revised and re-revised, and also especially after the branch was severed, it became part of other divisions. Towns or communities served along the line were (in order from west to east, from Lewistown) Hays, Jack's Creek, Maitland, Shindle, Wagner, Rager's Summit, McClure, Raubs Mills, Beaver Springs, Beavertown, Paxtonville, Middleburg, Meiser, Kreamer, Clifford, Selinsgrove, and (via a bridge over the Susquehanna River) Selinsgrove Junction (which was and is about 5 miles south of Sunbury). In steam days, typical power was H-class Consolidations. Diesels included Baldwin switchers, EMD SW-class switchers, GP7s/GP9s, and on one rare occasion in the early 1950s for a community centennial (I think) celebration, FP7s for excursion passenger trains. Regularly scheduled passenger service ended in the 1930s. Most of the line was abandoned in the mid-1960s. The portions from Lewistown to Maitland (where there's a scrap yard) and from Selinsgrove Jct. to Kreamer (where there's a lumber yard and feed mill) are intact. Juniata Valley Railroad operates the former; Conrail still operates the latter. The easternmost part of the line is the busiest, as Conrail delivers coal trains to PP&L's Shamokin Dam generating station via the Susquehanna River bridge. For a good video on this route, see PennValley Pictures' videotape "The S&L." Hope this helps. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:20:43 -0400 Subject: Re: SW-1 question From: carl-vic-vogel@juno.com (Carl K Vogel) Content-Length: 995 Jeremy: Thank you for sacrificing yourself for the good of the entire PRR Brotherhood. I know it hurts when you see something and can't buy it1 Thanks, Carl K.Vogel On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:12:18 -0400 (EDT) PRRSD45@aol.com writes: >Hello to all, > >E7B, and an undecorated Proto 2000 E8). So >after >that is said and done consider this a sacrifice. >Dealer is: Nixon Enterprises > 73 Manor Drive > Richboro, PA 18954 > Phone #: (215)357-4379 > >Best of luck on these. > >Jeremy Helms >Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future >Phil. 4:8 > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Altoona PRR stuff Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:22:04 -0400 Content-Length: 593 SPF's, You may want to point your browsers to this site for some interesting Altoona PRR stuff. http://pages.prodigy.com/altoonaarchives/rlrdg.htm Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Happy B'day to KC! Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 13:23:51 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1082 Although "Keystone Crossings" has existed for about 18 months, it wasn't until I got my own server and domain that it really took off. That happened during the last week of October, 1996. That means it's birthday time! "PRR-Talk" was established shortly thereafter, in November. If you're feeling sentimental, please sign the newly redesigned Guest Book (http://prr.dsop.com/guestbook/guestbook.html). The new format allows you to enter a URL for your own Pennsy site. Cheers! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:10:13 -0500 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: New Rolling Stock Status Content-Length: 602 I would suggest Bobber Caboose, but after seeing all the creative answers, I would like to see Jerry incorporate this thread as an FAQ! -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:03:48 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Steel mills in NW Indiana & the PRR Content-Length: 4653 Greetings from another western line fan. Regarding the thread on steel mills and the PRR, here is some info on NW Indiana and the Chicago. In the early part of this century, after J.P. Morgan bought out Andrew Carnegie and renamed Carnegie Steel to U.S. Steel, he appointed "Judge" Elbert Gary to run U.S. Steel. Gary decided to build a new, giant integrated steel mill on the shores of Lake Michigan at what is now Gary, Indiana. Since it was built, the Gary works was, and still continues to be (AFAIK), the worlds largest integrated steel mill. Because of it's proximity to natural resources and transportation, northwest Indiana and the area southeast of Chicago attracted other steel companies to the area. Inland Steel and Youngstown Steel, now LTV, built large mills in East Chicago, Indiana at what is called Indiana Harbor. Additional mills were built along the Grand Calumet River in South Chicago. The Calumet Region, as it became to be known, was the largest steel producing area in world. Today, 75% of domestic and 20% of all steel produced in the world comes from the Calumet Region. The PRR served this area from both the P.F.W.&C mainline and the P.B.&W. (Panhandle). In Gary, Clarke yard was build along the P.F.W.&C. to interchange with the E.J.&E. which served, (and was owned by), U.S. Steel. Hartsdale Yard was build along the Panhandle in Schererville, IN to also interchange with the E.J.&E. To serve the South Chicago area, a major yard, Colehour, was built along the P.F.W.&C. just east of the junction of the South Chicago & Southern (S.C.&S.), an important branch line which connected to the Panhandle at Bernice Jct. in Lansing, IL. Traffic from the Panhandle would move over the S.C.&S. from Bernice Jct. to Colehour Jct. 110th Street yard was built along the River Line, a branch which paralleled the Calumet River south and west of Colehour. Besides transporting finished steel, the PRR was a major coal carrier on both mainlines, with the Panhandle carrying most of the load. Coal from southern Indiana and Illinois would come up through Indianapolis, and coal from Eastern Kentucky and West Virginia moved through Cincinnati. Because of the high traffic in the area, the P.F.W.&C., which was already double tracked, was four tracked from Whiting, IN to Englewood, IL. In addition, rule 261 (bi-directional) signaling was employed between Clarke Jct (West Gary) and Whiting. The four tracks were layed out as follows: West <<<<<<< 2 <<<<<<<<< East >>>>>>> 1 >>>>>>>>> <<<<<<< 4 <<<<<<<<< >>>>>>> 3 >>>>>>>>> Colehour yard was actually located between #4 and #3 track. Two separate lift bridges were built over the Grand Calumet. One bridge carried #1 & #2 tracks, the other, #3 & #4. The NYC, which paralleled the PRR with four tracks of its own, also built lift two bridges adjacent to the PRR. The B&O build a drawbridge next to the NYC. This river crossing was known as the Five Bridges, and can still be seen from the Chicago Skyway bridge, although only two of them are still in use. In the 1960s, a novel rail was movement was initiated between the River Line and Riverdale, IL on the Panhandle. Trains, which consisted of 4 or 5 Pugh ladle cars and spacer cars, would carry molten steel from a mill located in South Chicago (I can't remember the name, Armco maybe?) to Interlake Steel in Riverdale, IL. These hot metal trains were more commonly known as "bottle" trains, because the ladle cars looked like huge bottles layed on their sides. The Pugh (sp?) ladle cars are huge, heavy monsters, that move on 5 (or 6, I can't remember) axle articulated trucks. The bottle trains, pulled by a single SW-1500, would move south over the River Line to Hegewisch Jct on the S.C.&S., then south over the S.C.&S. to Bernice Jct. There, they would travel around the west wye, through hand throw switches, onto the Panhandle and west through Dolton to Riverdale. The bottle trains continue to run to this day, (AFAIK), though the route has changed because most of the S.C.&S, and virtually all of the Panhandle in the area have been pulled up. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:42:44 -0500 From: "Dave 'Fresh' Freshwater" Subject: Re: Steel Mills Content-Length: 2433 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > Lesse.... I'll try to get all of this into one post instead of posting > piecemeal. > > First of all: > What steel mills were on-line customers of the PRR? > > >SNIP< Weirton Steel, used to be a division of National Steel, now employee owned, Weirton, W.Va, New Cumberland Branch, Panhandle Division. Article about its RR (track taken over, for the most part from Conrail) in the October 1985 issue of Trains. Steubenville Plant, Wheeling (the Wheeling Pittsburgh) Steel, Steubenville, OH; Mingo Works, again, Wheeling, now Wheeling Pitt, Steel, Mingo Junction, OH; both on the River Branch, Panhandle Division. All three of these are still operating, although as late as July, there was still a strike going on against Wheeling Pitt. My dad worked at Weirton until retirement (after the mill shifted to employee ownership.) My home town was on the Wheeling Branch of the Panhandle. The Wheeling and New Cumberland Branches departed the Panhandle Main at Weirton Junction. When Walthers brought out the steel mill kits, there were a few photos of Mingo published in either magazines or Freytag's book. Because all three of these are located right in towns, it is pretty easy to stay on public access streets and such and take pictures (although I wouldn't recommend pictures of Wheeling Pitt facilities if they are still on strike - it has been a real long and bitter one.) All three are also located within 10 miles (although you have to cross the Ohio River at either Steubenville/Weirton or go down to Wheeling). I've been back over there taking pictures for use in putting the Walthers Kit together on a module (and for whatever year a real layout gets built.) Bernie Kempinski took pictures of the Weirton works and incorporated some of the details into the 10 foot by 2 1/2 foot NTRAK module he built that took awards at the Madison convention (and will be the cover photo on Walthers N and Z scale catalog for 1998.) Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 8:04:49 GMT (Original EST) From: KKOLLAR@PAMDT.ANG.AF.MIL Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 13779 While at the Timonium Train show I met a gentleman who was selling plaster castings of PRR bridges and struck up a conversation with him about the three Sharks he had on display on his bridge diorama. He stated that there are two different versions of the Model Power Shark. Basically the only difference is in the drive train. He said that one type has rubber traction tires while the other does not and that they are geared differently. Hence they do not run well together if the different versions are paired in a lash up. I can't prove this as fact since the only one I have has traction tires. Maybe someone else out there can confirm if this is true. Kris Kollar Hershey, PA ------------- Original Text From: Jerry Shickler , on 10/27/97 8:04 AM: Jerry Britton wrote: > > In the past weeks, I have picked up two powered A unit "Sharks" via the > eBay auction (). > > For those not familiar with the auction, you need to get acquainted!!! > I've been keeping an eye on e-bay the last couple weeks as well, and saw you bidding on the 2nd shark--I'm glad you got them. I would have bid too, but it was tuscan, and I'm planning to model '49. Are all the Model Power units tuscan? Are they decent runners? > Anyway, there's yet another for sale. See: > Item #: 1352320 > Close Date: 10/31/97 06:23:04 > Starting Bid: 24.99 > Description: HO Scale SHARK NOSE DIESEL LOCOMOTIVE > This shark is not a Pennsy (it's a CN). Break out the paint! -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:05:11 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Is this true???? Content-Length: 1215 >I haven't yet looked at a copy of Roberts's new book, although I indend to >do so in the near future. Although the comments on it here and elsewhere in >cyberspace have been positive, I've also heard some negative comments, most >of which are critical of the author's "anectodal" style ... which can be >both entertaining _and_ dangerously subjective. I have read this book and yes, I would agree that the style is extremely subjective. Matters of interpretation are often passed off as fact, in my opinion. The text also contains a distressingly high number of factual errors, at the least in the Altoona-Johnstown segment with which I'm most familiar. The T1 fireman nonsense is so silly as not to warrant further comment. It is unfortunate that the author did not include a list/discussion of his sources. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:19:23 -0500 From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 1624 At 08:04 AM 10/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >While at the Timonium Train show I met a gentleman who was selling plaster >castings of PRR bridges and struck up a conversation with him about the >three Sharks he had on display on his bridge diorama. He stated that there >are two different versions of the Model Power Shark. Basically the only >difference is in the drive train. He said that one type has rubber >traction tires while the other does not and that they are geared >differently. Hence they do not run well together if the different versions >are paired in a lash up. I can't prove this as fact since the only one I >have has traction tires. Maybe someone else out there can confirm if this >is true. > >Kris Kollar >Hershey, PA Greetings, Right on!, there were two versions, one with rubber tires and one without. I have several of the type without rubber tires but none with them. Don't know about the gearing, but will tear down one and see what gears are in it. We can compare notes when you find out what gears yours has. The gentleman you mentioned at Timmonium, well everybody that desires a Shark has tried to buy them from him, he won't sell. Sincerely, S.A. McCALL hosam ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 10:59:35 -0500 Content-Length: 1006 I don't know whether sharks are rare elsewhere in the country, but several (at least 4) showed up at the North Shore Club's show last September. They were going for around $20 each. Perhaps their availability her is due to the fact that they never ran in the Boston area. B&M and NH fans have little interst, and D&H fans are scarce. Based upon the PRR paint scheme I saw on some of them, you'd have to repaint them no matter what paint they came with. MP painted them Tuscan 5-stripe. The PRR painted them DGLE 5-stripe-gold initially and DGLE 1-stripe-mustard soon afterward. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 10:37:45 CST Subject: Re: RE; Middle Division Track Plan Content-Length: 2392 Hi, everyone, >There is a West Mifflin south of Pittsburg(h), a Mifflin and Mifflintown in >Juniata County along the Middle Division This is a source of modest confusion. Like a number of communities along the Middle Div., the town which pre-dated the PRR was on the opposite side of the river. Mifflintown was such a case. Originally the area around the PRR station and shops here went by another name which escapes me but has since become Mifflin. The average person can't tell where the one ends and the other begins. >I also read recently that there were stock watering facilities at Huntingdon, >anyone have any info on this? There may have been ...but there was also an extensive ice plant used to replenish reefers here. Pictures of it appear in the KEYSTONE article a few years ago on icing facilities along the PRR. >I presume that Jacks Narrows located where the Juniata cuts through Jacks >Mountain just west of Mt. Union, is this true? Yes. P.S. Modeling 1916 is a great idea - wish we had more of that. It also allows for some interesting possibilities for interchange with st.g. and n. g. railroads along the PRR. The st.g. Susquehanna River & Western at Duncannon; n.g. Newport & Shermans Valley at Newport; n.g. Tuscarora Valley at Port Royal; the st.g. Kishacoquillas Valley at Lewistown (as well as the trolley); the EBT at Mt. Union; the Huntingdon & Broad Top at Huntingdon (a trolley also I think); and the recently st.gauged Altoona Juniata & Northern (yes, another railroad served Altoona besides the PRR). If you model the well-loved post-war era and want to do so prototypically, you don't have all these options...or youy can do like I do and just alter history so that, for example, the Tuscarora Valley still runs in 1950 (it actually quit in 1934). Keep up the good work. PRR forever! George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 10:43:33 CST Subject: Re: Railroading Magazine Content-Length: 1599 Hi, everyone, >Lewistown Narrows at the location of the dramatic one-man train robbery in >1909 when a masked bandit stopped and looted the Pittsburg & Newton Express. >Ironically, he passed up a million dollars in low-denomination bank notes for >a heavy sack containing 65$ in Lincoln pennies. In doing some research in the local newspapers, I ran across the details of this unusual event. The KEYSTONE ran some this in a letter of mine they published. This has to be one of the last train robberies anywhere in the east (or the US for that matter). Some details: the westbound express had stopped at Denholm for coal and water and so was just accelerating, which is how one man was able to stop the train. There was apparently some gun- play as one of the train crew was shot in the hand. Although I didn't follow the story, the robber got away into the surrounding mountains and was not initially caught - the pennies were abandoned in the woods. If you've ever seen this area, it would not be difficult to escape the chase in the heavy woods and steep mountains. Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 10:55:01 CST Subject: Re: "Shark" for Sale Content-Length: 1214 Hi, everyone, I've been running a 4-unit set of MP Sharks (two powered, two dummies) for a couple of years. They are the later non-traction tire version. A great mechanism but I had problems with the wheels staying clean. Solution was to replace MP wheels with appropriate NWSL nickle silver wheels. This required CAREFULLY opening out the plastic gears/axle centers with appropriate drillbit and files, since the NWSL half-axles were slightly larger. This done, the engines run much better and almost never need cleaning. I used ACCUFLEX Brunswick Green straight and decaled them with the 5-stripe scheme with the Keystone in a circle. Looks great to me. PRR forever! George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:55:24 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Triumph Book was Re: Is this true???? Content-Length: 2462 Greetings to the group, I'm about three quarters of the way through the book. At this point, I have given up on believing ANYTHING the author says. He mixes his opinions with what few facts are actually in there. There are no citations or even a bibliography. In addition to the T1 story, he mentions that the bridge at SF, where the New Portage went under the 'slide', was filled in. He based this fact on a photo he has in the book. The captions indicates to notice that the bridge was removed and replaced with fill. Well you can still see the bridge and the wing walls in that photo! By the way the bridge is still in place and hasn't been filled in. He indicates that he was in the area doing research for this book. Just visiting the site would have confirmed the bridge was still in place. He goes on about another photo trying to figure out its date. The date was etched in the negative and apears on the print. He never mentions that but proceeds to explain why the other assumed dates are wrong but he never explains where those other assumed dates came from. All, including his, were differant than the one on the print. The only value possible from this book is having all of the photos, maps, charts and such in one place. Just disregard the text. The problem with a book like this is that folks who know little about the PRR will believe the stuff he is writing. The unaware may think. "Gees, look how big this book is. The stuff must be true. It cost money to publish a book. Who would publish a book that had incorrect information." The author takes great pride at 'debunking' incorrect information that he has come across concerning the PRR. It's a shame he didn't take as much effort debunking his own stuff. Honestly, this has to be the worst written book I have bought! He hints that there will be other PRR books in this Triumph series. Let's hope this, like the majority of his text, is also untrue. We can only hope that he sticks with the B&O and leaves the PRR alone in the future. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:29:10 -0500 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Michael Bezilla) Subject: Re: Triumph Book was Re: Is this true???? Content-Length: 1698 Drew McGhee wrote, in part: >I'm about three quarters of the way through the book. At this point, I have >given up on believing ANYTHING the author says.... he mentions that the >bridge at >SF, where the New Portage went under the 'slide', was filled in. Drew makes some very good observations throughout his post. I will just add, related to the above, that the author of this book keeps calling SF Benny, when in fact Benny is further east where the slide comes level with the tracks using the Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels. So much for thorough research and familiarity with the property. >The problem with a >book like this is that folks who know little about the PRR will believe the >stuff he is writing. The unaware may think. "Gees, look how big this book >is. The stuff must be true. It cost money to publish a book. Who would >publish a book that had incorrect information." Well said, Drew. That, as I see it, is the main problem with this book. But it does have some wonderful photographs (the old stuff, not the modern color section) and I still think, if you can get the book at a discount, and if you can get past all the hot air in the text to mine the really good nuggets, it is a worthwhile addition to the libraries of those seriously interested in the PRR. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT-New Rolling Stock Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 15:07:17 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1595 First, let me thank you for the (literally) dozens of personal e-mail greetings I have received over the past few days, as well as the "entertaining" thread on what to name the new class of rolling stock. Second, the news: Andrew Scott arrived today at 8:13 a.m. Mother and child are doing very well. Hmmm. Did we name him after Thomas A. Scott? I'll let you guys ponder that one! As for his class...one post pointed out that he is a locomotive, since he is (or will be) self-propelled. Though I liked the reference of being and 0-4-0 (crawling) and converting to an 0-2-0 (walking), I lean towards the diesel end of things. Besides, I have a more fitting acronym. He is an AS10m... The "AS" is his initials...translation to Alco Shifter (sounds like crawling!) The "10" is his weight...10 pounds on the nose (wife is glad it was a section!) The "m" is male...with streamline "modification" scheduled for tomorrow! Again, thanks for all your support. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:26:41 +0000 Subject: Re: RE; Middle Division Track Plan Content-Length: 1023 Mifflintown was such a case. > Originally the area around the PRR station and shops here went by > another name which escapes me but has since become Mifflin. The > average person can't tell where the one ends and the other begins. The dividing line is the Juniata RIver. All of Mifflin (like the railroad) is south or west of the river, all of Mifflintown is north or east of the river. They are two separate municipalities, though I can't imagine why other than the typical Pennsylvania municipal trend to balkanization. Mifflintown is the county seat of Juniata County. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 10:9-10 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:40:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Railroading Magazine Content-Length: 2204 > >Lewistown Narrows at the location of the dramatic one-man train > >robbery in 1909 when a masked bandit stopped and looted the > >Pittsburg & Newton Express. Ironically, he passed up a million > >dollars in low-denomination bank notes for a heavy sack containing > >65$ in Lincoln pennies. It was the Pittsburgh & *Northern* Express. > > In doing some research in the local newspapers, I ran across the > details of this unusual event. The KEYSTONE ran some this in a > letter of mine they published. This has to be one of the last train > robberies anywhere in the east (or the US for that matter). Actually, one took place not so very far from there -- still within Pennsylvania -- along the Cambria & Indiana Railroad in -- are you ready for this? -- 1924. It was a classic western-style holdup, with engineer, fireman, brakeman held at gunpoint while other robbers got a mine payroll that was aboard the train. One guard was killed; two bandits were later captured in the state of Indiana, brought back for trial, were tried, convicted, and executed. > story, the robber got away into the surrounding mountains and was > not initially caught - the pennies were abandoned in the woods. If > you've ever seen this area, it would not be difficult to escape the > chase in the heavy woods and steep mountains. Many accounts say he was *never* caught. The PRR employees magazine carried a story in the 1960s that claimed two PRR workers who were off hunting in the mountains found a sack with lots of 1909 pennies. George, I agree with your assessment that it's a wild and remote area. When I was a small child, my dad was a co-owner of a hunting cabin back in those mountains behind the Narrows and Denholm, and it certainly was a desolate place, even in the 1950s. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:54:35 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/26/97 Content-Length: 870 Hello All - The discussions of Roberts' PRR book caught my eye. I personally feel that his history is too anecdotal and too full of personal opinions to pass as the kind of history most professional historians would find acceptable. I, too, am suspicious of any assertions about firemen falling into the stoker. I read his book on the B&O, and that made enough of a negative impression me. I figured (apparently correctly) that he would savage our beloved P Company. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Shark for Sale Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:17:57 -0600 Content-Length: 1106 These are not that scarce. I picked up a powered Sante Fe B and I picked up a stripped :-) A shell at swap meets in the last couple years to supplement my ABA set. Figure on stripping. I don't know of any in Brunswick green, 5 or single-stripe. MR in a review said they had an O gage can motor. Don't know about that, but they do run very well. Also picked up dummy BP20A built from an A and B shell. Bob Reid had article on this kitbash in Rails Northeast about 15 years ago. Nose is too short and side grills are inaccurate, but it is cheaper than brass --I just set it on the ready track, haven't taken to powering it yet. Also, it was painted in Tuscan 5-stripe which is too late for my era. Bob Zoeller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Steel mills in NW Indiana & the PRR Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:07:38 -0500 Content-Length: 1297 Largest Steel Mill Status The confusion with "Largest Steel Mill" status in an earlier posting may have been over the fact that at one time, the Bethlehem Steel, Sparrows Point Works was the largest TIDE WATER steel mill in the country, if not the world. The key here is TIDE WATER. Surely there are or were bigger mills than the Beth Steel, Sparrows Point Works. Also, the Beth Steel railroad that serves this area and interchanged with the Pennsy is the Patapsco & Back River. The P&BR still exists but now the interchange is with Conrail. The Patapsco & Back River makes the list of Baldwin diesel switcher customers in the book "Diesels From Eddystone: The Story of Baldwin Diesel Locomotives" (A good book for the PRR Fan) One of their early Baldwin switchers is now on the museum grounds of the B&O museum in Baltimore. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Shark for sale Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:13:03 -0600 Content-Length: 1113 George Pierson wrote: ". A great mechanism but I had problems with the wheels staying clean. Solution was to replace MP wheels with appropriate NWSL nickle silver wheels. This required CAREFULLY opening out the plastic gears/axle centers with appropriate drillbit and files, since the NWSL half-axles were slightly larger." George, I had same experience. I unfortunately did not realize the difference in axle size of the NWSL wheels until I got them home so I was chagrined when I realized my drop-in project was going to be a real project. . Oh, well - another get-around-to-it project! I will see if it is necessary when our club is up and running with the Centerline railcleaner. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dana Nield" Subject: Pennsy Sharks Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:04:33 -0500 Content-Length: 1636 Just joined this list and I am glad to see all the talk about Sharks! I just obtained one of the MP Sharks which I plan to build and paint as a PRR green with the solid stripe. I was under the opinion that the MP Sharks came as two versions. The first, which I have, has metal wheels, a huge can motor which my Father (Seen Fraiser? I live it!) claims will, "...pull the belly out of a skunk..." I have no idea what that means and will not stand by that claim. However it has greater power than any of my Athearns. The second run succumbed to those "cassette" type motors in a single truck. Now, my question is this: Is there any authoritative article on modelling Pennsy Sharks? I must confess my totally lack of knowledge in this area. I have always been a Pennsy fan since I was 13 when my Father dragged me out to Horseshoe Curve. However, Toronto doesn't have much in the way of PRR heritage! Any help would be appreicated! Cheers! Dana ________________________ Dana John Nield djn@idirect.com http://web.idirect.com/~djn Borgfeldt (Canada) Ltd. Exclusive Canada Importers of Tamiya, Italeri, Scalextric, Hornby Railways and Bburago http://web.idirect.com/~borgfeld borgfeld@idirect.com ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:33:53 -0600 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: Shark for Sale Content-Length: 949 >Also picked up dummy BP20A built from an A and B shell. Bob Reid had article on this kitbash in Rails Northeast about 15 years ago. Nose is too short and side grills are inaccurate, but it is cheaper than brass --I just set it on the ready track, haven't taken to powering it yet. Also, it was painted in Tuscan 5-stripe which is too late for my era. In the last Caboose Hobbies brass list (out today) they had a BP20 for $180 - brass in Tuscan Red. I'm not sure if it was a dummy or not, but worth looking into if you're interested in such things (HO). > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:46:06 -0500 (EST) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Re: steel mills, modelling, and other fun Content-Length: 449 Edgewater Steel actually was (and is) in Oakmont, PA, not Pittsburgh. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!