Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:58:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR: I-1 sounds Content-Length: 1001 The September issue of Model Railroader has a product review of the DCC decoder with steam sound produced by SoundTraxx. When I originally saw SoundTraxx's ad some months ago there were only about 5 types of engine sounds available. The list is now up to 17, but the only PRR sound available is the K-4. I'm wondering if there are enough of us with I-1 engines that we could lobby for SoundTraxx to make an I-1 recording. I believe they like to record live engines, but the I-1 sounds on the PRR CD I purchased are pretty clear and might be used for recording. Alternatively, does anyone know of another company with I-1 sounds? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 19:07:05 +0200 From: Arne Wangen Subject: Re: SERVER SPEED Content-Length: 687 Hi there I have a small comment to the SERVER SPEED posting. I have another problem with the website, timeout. The last couple of weeks, I have been trying to get the floor-plan gifs for the passenger cars. My best result is around 70% of the picture, before getting a reset by peer-message. This is so frustrating that I will soon forget the website as a whole. This is not meant as a flame, just frustration :-( Arne Wangen Bergen Norway ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: SERVER SPEED Date: Mon, 1 Sep 97 13:48:41 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1308 >I have a small comment to the SERVER SPEED posting. > >I have another problem with the website, timeout. The last couple of >weeks, I have been trying to get the floor-plan gifs for the passenger cars. > >My best result is around 70% of the picture, before getting a reset by >peer-message. I routinely access these pages from a remote site. That site is in York, Pa., which connects to the Internet via Baltimore. My host connects via Harrisburg to Philadelphia to Baltimore. Many hops. Yet I haven't run into this problem with the graphics in question. Yes, it is a problem on significantly larger files, and the bandwidth expansion (when it happens) will resolve a lot of that. Anyone else having problems with smaller (<100K) files from my site? Please respond to "hostmaster@dsop.com" (that's me also) and take this off the list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:22:18 -0500 Subject: Sound Traxx Content-Length: 406 Does any one have an address for Soundraxx. Email, snailmail or phone would be apprecaited! Michael DiMaio, Ph.D Department of Philosophy Salve Regina University Newport, RI 02840 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:48:27 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Sound Traxx Content-Length: 386 Michael, Soundtraxx, per their ad in MR mag for Sep 97 is at: 555-H Burbank St Broomfield, CO 80020 Tel 303-465-4435, Fax 303-465-4191 Stephen Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:33:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: Sound Traxx Content-Length: 646 In message <199709011723.NAA08321@pobox.ids.net> "Michael DiMaio" writes: > Does any one have an address for Soundraxx. Email, snailmail or phone > would be apprecaited! SoundTraxx is manufactured by: ThrottleUP! P.O. Box 33924 Denver, CO 80233-0924 303/465-4435 Notch8@aol.com Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:51:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR: I-1 sounds Content-Length: 666 In a message dated 97-09-01 11:57:37 EDT, harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu (Donald E. Harper, Jr.) writes: << I believe they like to record live engines, but the I-1 sounds on the PRR CD I purchased are pretty clear and might be used for recording. >> WARNING These recording are copyrighted by the PRRT&HS. Any use without permission is not legal. This would certainly apply to a for profit venture by Soundtraxx. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Sountraxx from Throttleup, address Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 18:01:26 -0400 Content-Length: 417 For those folks who may want to find a page on Sountraxx from Throttleup, here is an address. http://www.tttrains.com/throttleup/#index Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:14:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: Re: PRR: I-1 sounds Content-Length: 1230 In message <970901175007_-932163837@emout14.mail.aol.com> writes: > In a message dated 97-09-01 11:57:37 EDT, harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu > (Donald E. Harper, Jr.) writes: > > << I believe they like to record live > engines, but the I-1 sounds on the PRR CD I purchased are pretty clear and > might > be used for recording. >> > > WARNING > > These recording are copyrighted by the PRRT&HS. Any use without permission > is not legal. This would certainly apply to a for profit venture by > Soundtraxx. > > Rich Orr Those are details to be worked out between the PRRT&HS and the manufacturer. If PRRT&HS and SoundTraxx divided the profits, all three groups (PRRT&HS, SoundTraxx and users of DCC) would benefit. There probably is no other way to make the recording unless the sole surviving I-1 is brought back to operating condition. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 00:46:38 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: PRR Millstone Branch Content-Length: 700 Hello Group, Just posted some pictures I took of the Millstone Branch this Sunday. http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/millston.html I hope to add some historical information and pictures to this page in the future. FYI. Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Sep 1997 09:03:45 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce -Reply Content-Length: 2476 >>> sbartlet@capecod.net 08/30/97 12:28pm >>> Bill Laird wrote: >I am currently planning construction of a new home and will include a real layout room.....track plan by John Armstrong titled... > >Pennsylvania Railroad Middle and Pittsburg Divisions. I would like to preserve the full 24' by 36' size but do the layout in HO scale, that would result in minimum mainline curves of 48"! > Jerry wrote: > Note that you cannot scale this layout down exactly proportionally. In > S scale, Armstrong has some narrow aisles. If you take it down > proportionately, the aisles will become too narrow. > > Stephen wrote: Bill and Jerry, My interpretation of Bill's aim is that while he plans to build the railroad in HO rather than S, he intends to keep the same room size (24' X 36'). This would shrink the benchwork. Except for points where Bill expands the original areas, the result would be equal or greater aisle space. I'm glad to see you are NOT planning to reduce the curve radii proportionally as well. Keep them large, put in easements equal in length to two passenger cars, and you will have some beautiful trackwork there. Stephen Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stephen, Your assessment of my intentions is correct. The plan is to keep the full 24' by 36' and use the extra space for more industries, scenery, and wider isles. So far everything is in the early planning stage and actual construction of the new home still 3 to 4 years away (read retirement). I do have the land, an acre overlooking Canyon Lake in the Texas Hill Country, and have built a garage with living quarters above to use as a weekend getaway and to live onsite during the new home construction. Until then I am concentrating on building up a roster of rolling stock and running on our Houston Society of Model Engineers layout (over 600' of mainline double track in our own 40' by 50' building) in Manvel, Texas. The "prr-talk" list is a great resouce, especially for PRR modelers and fans located a long way from the geographic heart of the PRR. I really enjoy all the postings. Bill Laird Houston, Texas email Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Jack's Narrows and Spruce (fwd) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:05:00 EDT Content-Length: 4704 > I have been studying a track plan by John Armstrong published in the > Kalmbach book "20 Custom Designed Track Plans" , pages 51-53, titled > Pennsylvania Railroad Middle and Pittsburg Divisions. It is large by most > home layout standards (24' by 36' in S scale) but features several of the > best known landmarks in the PRR assult on the Alleghenies, including > Altoona, Horseshoe Curve, a shortened Rockville Bridge, Jack's > Narrows, and Spruce. I am currently planning construction of a new > home and will include a real layout room. I would like to preserve the full > 24' by 36' size but do the layout in HO scale, that would result in minimum > mainline curves of 48"! Most excellent, dude! > I am familiar with and have visited all the landmarks included in the plan > except Jack's Narrows and Spruce, which are both refered to as > photogenic trackage by mister Armstrong. My questions to the group are > (1) where are Jack's Narrows and Spruce located, and (2) does anyone > have any references to published pictures and descriptions of these two > areas? SPRUCE is very photogenic. JACKS, eh, sort of. The RR is on a ledge cut out of the mountain; in summer (with full leaf), it's quite narrow. At any rate, my 2 cents, given that many others have weighed in. JACKS itself is maybe a mile, maybe a bit less, west of the town of Mount Union. There were 4 mainline tracks, reduced to 3 in the 50s with the removal of #3 track, then to 2 tracks by Conrail. The "5th" track mentioned by someone is probably the spur that turned a bit more to the south (than the mainline went), into the yard in Mount Union. Part of that yard, being the interchange with the East Broad Top, was double-gauged (std. and 3-foot gauge). Most interesting to model, methinks. SPRUCE is a wonderful area. Remember, first off, that the main line was never 4 tracks west of SPRUCE, 'cause the valley was too narrow. It was 3 tracks as far as FORGE tower east of Tyrone, while FORGE was with us (it bit the dust early on, in the 50s, I believe). The tunnels are easily enough seen at SPRUCE, after walking only a mile or so (!). There is a stream, then a farm as one proceeds north from the main line. The RR tunnels cut through the point of Tussey Mountain, which "points" north, and around which it would have been too tough to run the RR (curvature too severe); the stream passes around the mountain. On the west side (which I've been describing), the tunnel portals are rather near one another; the south portal (and tunnel, ipso facto (duh...)) is the newer. SPRUCE tower was at that location, maybe 1/2 mile west of the portals. BUT. The east side is less often seen (by railfans), access being rather more difficult than the west side -- 2 miles or so from the nearest road. The main line is _widely_ split apart here, as there is an angle between the two tunnels. The newer south tunnel remains on the same side of the stream, hugging the mountain, passing a morain, to TUNNEL interlocking and the restart of 4 tracks (or 3, or 2, depending on the era). The north track, after exiting the tunnel portal, crosses the stream on a bridge, passes over a southwardly pointing spit of land, then recrosses to the south side of the stream, where it joins the newer main to proceed to the nearby TUNNEL interlocking. In the 50s, I believe, the tunnels were reduced to 1 centered track each, from 2 tracks, to accommodate higher loads. Thus, it was 4 tracks from Altoona to FORGE, 3 to SPRUCE, only 2 to TUNNEL, then 4 from there on east. >From the 50s to the 90s, one could photograph the _Broadway Limited_ running on what appeared to be _single track"_ because the mains were so far apart. Conrail, in its recent clearance-increasing project, removed the track from the less structurally stable south tunnel, enlarging the tunnel, putting in modern concrete portals, making the tunnel straight- rather than curved-sided, and moving the portals 'into' the mountain a ways. The north tunnel is therefore now double track again. The now unused south portal was shored up a bit with concrete. Personally, I find it interesting that they should make this choice, given that they must also maintain 2 bridges on this routing -- on the other hand, they now need not maintain the south track against the erosion of the outside curve of the Little Juniata ... -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce -Reply Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 10:11:22 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 729 Bill Laird (Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com) of Houston, Texas, wrote: >The "prr-talk" list is a great resouce, especially for PRR modelers and >fans located a long way from the geographic heart of the PRR. I really >enjoy all the postings. > Shall we refer to your layout as "Lines Way West"? 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Sep 1997 09:12:21 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: P2k E7 color -Reply Content-Length: 1235 >>> KEMACPRR@aol.com 08/30/97 07:34am wrote:>>> All the E-7's were delivered in Brunswick Green with the 5 stripe scheme in gold leaf. Also the first two orders I believe of the E-8's were also delivered in the same scheme. In 1952 ( not sure when ) The official paint color for Passenger units was changed to Tuscan Red as was the striping scheme to 5 stripe dulux gold . The LL E-7 with the small number boards should be painted in the green/gold leaf 5 stripe scheme. I believe that the larger number boards applied by the PRR were done when the units were repainted. Has anyone ever seen a color picture of an E-7 in tuscan 5-stripe with the original number boards?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition the the Tuscan Red five stripe and Brunswick Green five stripe scheme, PRR E-7's also appeared in a Brunswick Green single stripe scheme (with large number boards). Bill Laird Houston, Texas email Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:04:55 -0400 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce (fwd) Content-Length: 2267 Mark Bej wrote: >SPRUCE is a wonderful area. Remember, first off, that the main line was >never 4 tracks west of SPRUCE, 'cause the valley was too narrow. It was >3 tracks as far as FORGE tower east of Tyrone, while FORGE was with us >(it bit the dust early on, in the 50s, I believe). FORGE was closed in 1968, I believe. The process started a year or two earlier when PRR ripped out one of the main tracks from FORGE to GRAY, but the first PC central region ett still shows it, albeit in its death throes. Now then, Mark has touched on something of great interest: why the 3-track main SPRUCE to FORGE? Was it because the valley of the Little Juniata was too narrow for 4 tracks? Maybe, but I'm skeptical. If PRR could find space for 4 main tracks up the West Slope and then down the valley of the Conemaugh, surely it could have added a 4th track along the little J. Anyone have any thoughts? In all the literature of the PRR, I don't recall this 3-track stretch being considered an intolerable bottleneck. Those wonderful stone arch bridges across the little J do not seem to have been designed w/ 4 tracks in mind. Why not? >Conrail, in its recent clearance-increasing project, removed the track >from the less structurally stable south tunnel, enlarging the tunnel, >putting in modern concrete portals, making the tunnel straight- rather >than curved-sided, and moving the portals 'into' the mountain a ways. >The north tunnel is therefore now double track again. The now unused >south portal was shored up a bit with concrete. Personally, I find it >interesting that they should make this choice, given that they must >also maintain 2 bridges on this routing -- on the other hand, they now >need not maintain the south track against the erosion of the outside >curve of the Little Juniata ... Erosion is indeed a critical factor here. The '36 flood virtually wiped out this track--I would imagine Agnes was pretty mean too--and it is a continual problem even in the best of conditions. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:19:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR: Test Content-Length: 444 This is a test to determine if my duplicate address has been deleted from the listserver. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 02 Sep 1997 10:35:36 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce -Reply -Reply Content-Length: 491 >>> britton@pit-magnus.com 09/02/97 09:57am wrote >>> Shall we refer to your layout as "Lines Way West"? 8-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry, Perhaps "Lines Southwest" would be more appropriate. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce (fwd) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:01:37 EDT Content-Length: 3196 > >SPRUCE is a wonderful area. Remember, first off, that the main line was > >never 4 tracks west of SPRUCE, 'cause the valley was too narrow. It was > >3 tracks as far as FORGE tower east of Tyrone, while FORGE was with us > >(it bit the dust early on, in the 50s, I believe). > > Now then, Mark has touched on something of great interest: why the 3-track > main SPRUCE to FORGE? Was it because the valley of the Little Juniata was > too narrow for 4 tracks? Maybe, but I'm skeptical. If PRR could find space > for 4 main tracks up the West Slope and then down the valley of the > Conemaugh, surely it could have added a 4th track along the little J. > Anyone have any thoughts? In all the literature of the PRR, I don't recall > this 3-track stretch being considered an intolerable bottleneck. Those > wonderful stone arch bridges across the little J do not seem to have been > designed w/ 4 tracks in mind. Why not? Mike, you are right in pointing out the fact that I was parroting what has no doubt been parroted by others in the past. Surely one _could_ fit 4, or 6, or 8 tracks if one _really_ wanted to. The question is, would it be economical to do so? The Mountain clearly required all the tracks they could muster. That is _so_ much of a bottleneck that it is 4 or 5 tracks all the way. ROI (return on investment) is rather clear in that location. But also, there is little in between besides dirt/mountains. The trouble with the Little Juniata section is probably twofold: 1) the valley is narrow, and 2) the (many) bridges were built for 3 tracks. (1) results in the need, should one want to expand from 3 to 4 tracks, to excavate almost continuously for many (?10 ?12) miles. Clearly, a 12-mile excavation will return more if done to the Altoona--Gallitzin section than it will in the FORGE--SPRUCE section. (2) is probably the more major reason, as, though it's bad enough to have to excavate 12 miles of line [sorry, I'm guessing at the distance, hope I'm not too far off], it's worse yet to have to add in stone arch bridgework for the manifold crossings of said Little Juniata. Yet, (2) brings up yet another question, viz., 3) why were the bridges built to 3-track width in the first place. This one I've never seen the answer to, and I can only speculate that the reason is that the guys who rebuilt the bridges (the PRR went on a bridge rebuilding spree in the late 1800s, rebuilding in stone [concrete was not yet popular, much to our present luck and photographic pleasure]) and widened them made the business decision not to bankrupt themselves on that (relatively short) stretch of line, with its many bridges, but to spend wisely on other bridges as well. To boot, there was a bypass route (the New Portage Secondary, from Altoona to Hollidaysburg to Petersburg, east of Spruce Creek and west of Huntingdon) that could be used in a crunch. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: P2k E7 color -Reply Content-Length: 853 In a message dated 97-09-02 10:09:22 EDT, Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com writes: << In addition the the Tuscan Red five stripe and Brunswick Green five stripe scheme, PRR E-7's also appeared in a Brunswick Green single stripe scheme (with large number boards). >> Dark Green Locomotive Enamel paint with a single stripe were all freight units. The passenger diesel schemes were: DGLE five stripe, Tuscan five stripe, Tuscan single stripe, Tuscan no stripe. There are sub-varities of each of the major schemes. To date I have identified 17 different passenger schemes all based on the four primary schemes. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:54:22 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: P2k E7 color Content-Length: 1014 If you are modeling the late '40s, you'll have to paint your E7 green and put the five stripes on it. That's the way the E7 (EP20) and the PA1 (AP20) were delivered. On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Jerry Shickler wrote: > Walthers says the P2K E7's will be tuscan. I thought that a while back > it was stated here that nothing was painted tuscan until something like > '51. Is my memory fading, is P2K wrong, or does this represent a > repaint & I'm stymied again in trying to model the late 40's? > -- > Jerry Shickler > Erie, PA > geshick@velocity.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:06:20 -0500 (CDT) From: bob@amsignal.com Content-Length: 2188 LB Received: by bob.amsignal.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCB7A5.2A918D00@bob.amsignal.com>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:36:07 -0500 Message-ID: <01BCB7A5.2A918D00@bob.amsignal.com> From: "Bob Zoeller" To: "PRR-Talk@dsop.com" , "'Donald E. Harper, Jr.'" Subject: RE: I-1 sounds Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:36:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dallee has K4, what they call a 3-chime T1 (I just received:haven't = hooked up) and a banshee. I believe some I1's had the latter, but I = assume that isn't what is being sought. Any opinions on the closest (K4 = or T1) to an M1? Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI bob@amsig.com ---------- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr. Sent: Monday, September 01, 1997 8:58 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: PRR: I-1 sounds The September issue of Model Railroader has a product review of the DCC = decoder=20 with steam sound produced by SoundTraxx. When I originally saw = SoundTraxx's ad=20 some months ago there were only about 5 types of engine sounds = available. The=20 list is now up to 17, but the only PRR sound available is the K-4. I'm=20 wondering if there are enough of us with I-1 engines that we could lobby = for=20 SoundTraxx to make an I-1 recording. I believe they like to record live = engines, but the I-1 sounds on the PRR CD I purchased are pretty clear = and might be used for recording. Alternatively, does anyone know of another company with I-1 sounds? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to=20 "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2k E7's Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 15:12:32 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 609 Speaking of the P2k E7's...has anyone seen them in stock anywhere? If so, how much? Although I wouldn't buy them from Walther's (list price), they are showing an ETA of 9/6. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "RIchard F. Makse" Subject: Genuine Position Light Low Home Signal available Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:13:25 -0400 Content-Length: 1059 Hi, everyone: I'm not in the railroadiana business, but for 35 years, I have had a position light low home signal (USS&S), salvaged in 1962 from OZONE interlocking (closed in 1955) of the LIRR. I never could find the time to rewire it and get it up and running but otherwise, it's a good 1930's era signal. It's too darned heavy to keep shuttling from one corner of my garage to the other and after 35 years, I'll never find the time to restore it. You'll even get the official letter of sale. Any takers out there? Make me an offer--I would trade for quality paper (pre 1950 railroad tickets or employee timetables of PRR, PRSL, LIRR,DL&W,CNJ,LV pre-1950 or Eastern roads hardcover books or original Beebe books). Respond privately. But you have to pick it up in Ridgewood, NJ! Richard F. Makse maxrail@att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:39:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: various HO scale and prototype diesel issues Content-Length: 1655 Hi all, A couple of questions: 1) I have the opportunity to pick up an Atlas U33C pretty cheaply; It's only useful to me if I can steal the power chassis to drop into an e.g. Athearn U30C (or a U28C if I ever get around to getting one and painting it). Are the trucks right for the Pennsy U30C's? Is the spacing between trucks correct? 2) The Athearn SD45 Pennsy paint scheme, aside from being wrong, has a number on it which was never that I can tell an SD45. 8962, I think. That's ok, it's now "parts". 3) The Athearn SD9 has the same number as one of the P2K ones. 4) I've been considering (searching for) Kato GP35's and seeing if Kato makes a Pennsy SD45 and getting one, but I'm curious about phases. For use rivet counters, what's a good source of phase information, and who bought what, or in my case, what the Pennsy bought? 5) I've seen an article suggesting P70's as a possible starting point for an MP54, but the window grouping is wrong. The article also suggested (I believe, I don't have it here) a Bethlehem Car Works CNJ coach; Does anyone know if something closer to an MP54 than a P70 exists in plastic out there? 6) It looks like I'll be headed to Railfest a day later than most of you; I expect to be on the 1:30 Sunday train if anyone cares. (I expect I'll be working on/at my house on the Saturday as Friday and Saturday are about the only times we get anything done) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:42:24 -0400 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce (fwd) Content-Length: 1365 >The Mountain clearly required all the tracks they could muster. That is >_so_ much of a bottleneck that it is 4 or 5 tracks all the way. True, Mark. But on the SPRUCE - FORGE segment: no helper moves. no coal tipples, few customers of any kind to make it a bottleneck. In fact, I know of only two possible customers, historically speaking. The quarries around Union Furnace and --maybe -- the shovel factory east of the cut at U.F. Tho there was the station at the village of Spruce Creek. Kind of unusual to have this on a 3 track main. >why were the bridges built to 3-track width in the first place. A real puzzler. Looks like they didn't anticipate much local traffic. >there was a bypass route (the >New Portage Secondary, from Altoona to Hollidaysburg to Petersburg, >east of Spruce Creek and west of Huntingdon) that could be used in a crunch. This may have been a key in the decision-making circa 1900 or so. But given that the H&P never boomed with by-pass traffic -- unlike say, B&O's bypass of Cumberland -- the PRR must not have considered the 3 tracks west from SPRUCE much of a nuisance. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2k E7's Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 15:56:27 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 743 On 2 Sep, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > Speaking of the P2k E7's...has anyone seen them in stock anywhere? > > If so, how much? > > Although I wouldn't buy them from Walther's (list price), they are > showing an ETA of 9/6. Hah! All you guys are working in the wrong scale! I got *my* PRR E7s last weekend. Beautiful ABBA set, Tuscan five-stripe. I'll be running them this Sunday at the Concord (NH) show. The local price is $37.50 (powered A), $18.75 (dummy B). This is N Scale, of course. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: various HO scale and prototype diesel issues From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 97 16:23:48 -0400 Content-Length: 983 . . . > >5) I've seen an article suggesting P70's as a possible starting point for an >MP54, but the window grouping is wrong. The article also suggested (I believe, >I don't have it here) a Bethlehem Car Works CNJ coach; Does anyone know if >something closer to an MP54 than a P70 exists in plastic out there? > . . . - ------- The only thing I know of is the Funero & Camerlengo LIRR Ping Pong car. Its an accurate MP54 with a arch roof. It is still listed as in stock at Walthers. Very little else of F&C is! But beware, F&C are the toughest resin kits to build. In part because the instructions are awful! However, the MP54 only has 10 parts that you would be interested in, so you might get by. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:23:56 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: K8 Photos Content-Length: 572 Wud appreciate URL for K8 photos used for transporting tomatoes. Someone was kind enough to respond to my recent request regarding drawings by referring to the site. I did download the photos a month or so ago but, doing the guy thing, put them in such a safe place I can't find them nor did I bookmark the site. Thanks in advance. Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:30:38 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce (fwd) Content-Length: 715 In a message dated 97-09-02 13:05:20 EDT, mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) writes: >In all the literature of the PRR, I don't recall >this 3-track stretch being considered an intolerable bottleneck. No supporting data, but I would venture to say that this segment had the least traffic of any segment between Rockville and Conpitt Jct. And, based on what else the PRR did, they certainly could (and would) have 4-tracked the segment if this was deemed necessary. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:01:02 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce (fwd) Content-Length: 715 In a message dated 97-09-02 13:05:20 EDT, mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) writes: >In all the literature of the PRR, I don't recall >this 3-track stretch being considered an intolerable bottleneck. No supporting data, but I would venture to say that this segment had the least traffic of any segment between Rockville and Conpitt Jct. And, based on what else the PRR did, they certainly could (and would) have 4-tracked the segment if this was deemed necessary. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: P2K E7 paint schemes Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:24:42 -0500 Content-Length: 1774 Not to beat a dead horse, but I have two comments on subject: 1. At Madison, Lifelike hinted to me that Brunswick green scheme might be a future project (The way things go in the model industry, that might be 1999). I asked because I didn't want a repeat of my E8 experience wherein I took two AHM shells, filled in the mars light, ground off dynamic brakes, added lift rings , antennas, and coupler covers and then painted tuscan(bought Protopower chassis), awaiting only decalling, then P2K brought out their E8. I am now in process of adding antennas to P2K undec E7 to do a pre-1952 brunswick scheme. 2.Sometimes I assume erroneously that everyone has copies of everything. For those who missed it, Issue 38, November-December 1988 of Prototype Modeler magazine had plans and construction tips on Pennsy E-units, specifically the original E7 and a very late E8 version. The prototype data included, attributed to Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS, gave a lot of the numbers and dates asked for on PRR-chat. Briefly summarizing: E7 switch to tuscan and 5-stripe Buff lettering August 11, 1952 start. Official date for switch to single wide stripe, large keystone, and 16 inch new lettering typeface - July 20, 1956. First 28 E8 delivered 1950-51 were brunswick green, 5-stripe and lettering in gold leaf. Next batch of 24 mid-1952 the same except two to four in tuscan with 5-stripe and lettering in gold leaf. Final 22 unts in late -1952 in tuscan with Buff 5-stripes and lettering. Repaint of green E8's to tuscan began in August 1952. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Re: various HO scale and prototype diesel issues Content-Length: 649 Regarding U30C's, note that the Pennsy's five (6535-6539) have the same car body as the U28C. The main difference between later U30C's and the Pennsy's is the step in the car body width in the radiator area found on the later U30C's. See Pennsy Power II, page 303 (U28C) and 304 (U30C). See page 63 of the Diesel Spotter's Guide Update or page 173 of The Second Diesel Spotters Guide for a photo of a later model U30C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:31:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Da72jmk@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR: I-1 sounds Content-Length: 478 In a message dated 97-09-01 11:58:17 EDT, Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: << I'm wondering if there are enough of us with I-1 engines that we could lobby for SoundTraxx to make an I-1 recording. >> Count me in on wanting sound for an I-1. John Keel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Passenger Car Classes Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 06:53:02 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 906 Remember those long discussions we had about passenger car classes? With only one exception, the "a" suffix seemed to denote "pre-war". Over the past few weeks I've been adding many class rosters (http://prr.dsop.com/passops) and tonight I did PS106 (10 roomettes, 6DBR). All are "post war". PS106 - "B type" bedrooms PS106a - "parallel type" bedrooms PS106b - Budd-built stainless steel models with "B type" bedrooms Seems there are more "exceptions"! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: P2K E7 paint schemes Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:49:16 -0400 Content-Length: 3052 Bob, I prefer the AHM E8 shell to LL/P2K's. Only problem with the AHM shell is the pilot, which I chop off and build my own PRR style out of styrene anyway, so no problemo. I powered mine with chopped and channelled Athearn FP-45 mechanisms, using A-Line's sideframes and fuel tank skirts. The guys at Rivarossi did a super fine job of tooling for the cab/nose on that shell. Finest in the hobby, in my opinion. I got a close look at LL/P2K's E7 A and saw that they blew it right where the windshields meet the nose, just above the number boards. It's a small glitch, but I sure notice it. Problem is, the old Model Power now Con Cor E7 shell has too blunt a nose, so it isn't a preferable option, but it's out there for demented kitbashers like me. Good Pennsy modeling to you, Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others. >---------- >From: Bob Zoeller[SMTP:bob@amsignal.com] >Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 10:24 AM >To: 'PRRtalk' >Subject: P2K E7 paint schemes > >Not to beat a dead horse, but I have two comments on subject: > >1. At Madison, Lifelike hinted to me that Brunswick green scheme might be a >future project (The way things go in the model industry, that might be 1999). >I asked because I didn't want a repeat of my E8 experience wherein I took two >AHM shells, filled in the mars light, ground off dynamic brakes, added lift >rings , antennas, and coupler covers and then painted tuscan(bought >Protopower chassis), awaiting only decalling, then P2K brought out their E8. >I am now in process of adding antennas to P2K undec E7 to do a pre-1952 >brunswick scheme. > >2.Sometimes I assume erroneously that everyone has copies of everything. For >those who missed it, Issue 38, November-December 1988 of Prototype Modeler >magazine had plans and construction tips on Pennsy E-units, specifically the >original E7 and a very late E8 version. The prototype data included, >attributed to Chuck Blardone and the PRRT&HS, gave a lot of the numbers and >dates asked for on PRR-chat. Briefly summarizing: >E7 switch to tuscan and 5-stripe Buff lettering August 11, 1952 start. >Official date for switch to single wide stripe, large keystone, and 16 inch >new lettering typeface - July 20, 1956. >First 28 E8 delivered 1950-51 were brunswick green, 5-stripe and lettering in >gold leaf. >Next batch of 24 mid-1952 the same except two to four in tuscan with 5-stripe >and lettering in gold leaf. >Final 22 unts in late -1952 in tuscan with Buff 5-stripes and lettering. >Repaint of green E8's to tuscan began in August 1952. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 04 Sep 1997 07:56:59 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: P2K E7 paint schemes -Reply Content-Length: 1179 >>> bob@amsignal.com 09/03/97 08:39pm wrote>>> ................. I am now in process of adding antennas to P2K undec E7 to do a pre-1952 brunswick scheme. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wanting to do the same (E7 in DGLE) I have been price shopping the ads in the mags for undecs. Longs Model RR Sply ad in Oct 97 MR indicates that the undec E7 A unit (mfr model # 170-21072) has a Mars light. Ad says unit has "Flat # Board". I can't tell if that means the old style small number board or the newer large 45 degree number board. My question is are either of the LL P2K E7 undec A units (old style small number board or newer large 45 deg number board) available without a Mars light? If so, what is the manufacturers part number? I appreciate any responses. Bill Laird Houston, Texas email Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: K8 Photos Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:04:26 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 732 On 2 Sep, Tom Mahon wrote: > Wud appreciate URL for K8 photos used for transporting tomatoes. Someone > was kind enough to respond to my recent request regarding drawings by > referring to the site. I did download the photos a month or so ago but, > doing the guy thing, put them in such a safe place I can't find them nor > did I bookmark the site. The tomato transport article is at http://www.rrhistorical.com/prths/tomato.html Strip off "tomato.html" to get the the PRRT&HS pages. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: P2K E7 paint schemes -Reply Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:47:19 -0500 Content-Length: 1900 I was puzzled by the reference to Mars light, too, when I picked up the kit I had special ordered. It turns out that P2K has also included an extra blank door in the undec kit, I was relieved to find out (It took me a while to find it). I have flat number board kit. I can let you know part number tomorrow after I check at home tonight. ---------- From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 7:56 AM To: Reply requested Subject: P2K E7 paint schemes -Reply >>> bob@amsignal.com 09/03/97 08:39pm wrote>>> ................ I am now in process of adding antennas to P2K undec E7 to do a pre-1952 brunswick scheme. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wanting to do the same (E7 in DGLE) I have been price shopping the ads in the mags for undecs. Longs Model RR Sply ad in Oct 97 MR indicates that the undec E7 A unit (mfr model # 170-21072) has a Mars light. Ad says unit has "Flat # Board". I can't tell if that means the old style small number board or the newer large 45 degree number board. My question is are either of the LL P2K E7 undec A units (old style small number board or newer large 45 deg number board) available without a Mars light? If so, what is the manufacturers part number? I appreciate any responses. Bill Laird Houston, Texas email Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K E7 paint schemes -Reply Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 12:02:37 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2405 Here are the part numbers for the Proto-2000 E7's 433-21072 PROTO E7A undec flat # bd HO 90.00 - old style small # board - both w & w/o mars light 433-21073 PROTO E7B undec HO 45.00 433-21272 PROTO E7A undec 45deg # HO 90.00 - new style large # board - both w & w/o mars light I just finished painting up a B unit in DGLE and it looks great! I'm working on the PRR's first pair of A units and the B unit that was later purchased to go along with them. (The whole set is as delivered- I like the look before all of those extra safety appliances were added. Plus they're just about the only PRR EMD cab units with freight pilots!) Can't wait until I finish the trainphone antennas on the A's and get them painted to match.... Rob --------------- I was puzzled by the reference to Mars light, too, when I picked up the = kit I had special ordered. It turns out that P2K has also included an = extra blank door in the undec kit, I was relieved to find out (It took = me a while to find it). I have flat number board kit. I can let you = know part number tomorrow after I check at home tonight. ---------- From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 7:56 AM To: Reply requested Subject: P2K E7 paint schemes -Reply >>> bob@amsignal.com 09/03/97 08:39pm wrote>>> ................ I am now in process of adding antennas to P2K undec E7 to do a pre-1952 brunswick scheme. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- Wanting to do the same (E7 in DGLE) I have been price shopping the ads in the mags for undecs. Longs Model RR Sply ad in Oct 97 MR indicates that the undec E7 A unit (mfr model # 170-21072) has a Mars light. Ad says unit has "Flat # Board". I can't tell if that means the old style = small number board or the newer large 45 degree number board. My question is are either of the LL P2K E7 undec A units (old style = small number board or newer large 45 deg number board) available without a Mars light? If so, what is the manufacturers part number? =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:42:17 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Pre-merger roster needed Content-Length: 482 I needed to find out where I could find a copy of the Pennsylvania Railroad roster for the day of the Penn Central merger. Any help in where to find this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: E unit pilots Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:59:47 -0400 Content-Length: 2268 And now, a few words about pilot swapping. Life Like thankfully markets their E unit pilots as parts. But here it gets tricky. Both the creased (freight style) and smooth (passenger style) pilots that come with the E8 are cast in engineering plastic and are a bit more difficult to kitbash with. The pilots that come with the E7 are in a more easily worked styrene. More comparisons. The E8 pilots--both of them, are really well designed and are near flawlwess representations of their prototypes. The smooth/passenger pilot is a close representation of PRR's E8 pilots, except the SPF might want to fill in some of the great maw where the coupler goesintah. The E8 creased pilot is the best of its type on the market on nay model, but is of little use to SPFs, as the Pennsy had no use for these, as all Fs and E's (except for a couple of the early E7s had smooht pilots. So, as a service to my fellow SPF's, I will take any spare E8 creased pilots off your hands. Both of the E7 pilots, in my opinion, have overly large holes for the couplers and would require patching around the edges for anything that looks reasonable, but this shouldn't be all that hard, as they are cast in styrene. And now for the "but"--the smooth pilot that comes with the E7, except for the coupler area, is a perfect example of the original pilot on Pennsy E7's, which, as every SPF will recognize, is different than the smooth pilot on Pennsy E8s. It's a small, but important distinction. This may be more than some ever wanted to know, but as COL Sherm Potter once said: "I'm glad we had this little talk". Later, Andrew Harmantas, SPF >---------- > >I just finished painting up a B unit in DGLE and it looks great! I'm working >on the PRR's first pair ofA units and the B unit that was later purchased to >go along with them. (The whole set is as delivered-I like the look before >all of those extra safety appliances were added. Plus they're just about the >only PRR EMD cab units with freight pilots!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pre-merger roster needed Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 13:24:15 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 749 >I needed to find out where I could find a copy of the Pennsylvania Railroad >roster for the day of the Penn Central merger. Any help in where to find >this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Motive power? Freight cars? Passenger cars? Everything? Motive roster is at http://prr.dsop.com.motiveops --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:27:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR: Vehicle color Content-Length: 584 An article in a recent Keystone dealt with the color and lettering of vehicles purchased by the PRR. Nothing was said about the interior colors. Were the interiors and seats various colors, or were they painted Tuscan also??? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: P2K E7's Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 07:01:50 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1055 I want to purchase an A-B-A set of the new Proto 2000 E7's in Tuscan Red for passenger service. >Here are the part numbers for the Proto-2000 E7's > 433-21072 PROTO E7A undec flat # bd HO 90.00 - old style small # board - both w & w/o mars light > 433-21073 PROTO E7B undec HO 45.00 > 433-21272 PROTO E7A undec 45deg # HO 90.00 - new style large # board - both w & w/o mars light Why use the undec's? Do you plan to paint DGLE and use for freight service, or is the number board style and size wrong for passenger service as supplied on the RTR PRR tuscan units? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:26:12 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: P2K E7's Content-Length: 845 Jerry Britton wrote: > > I want to purchase an A-B-A set of the new Proto 2000 E7's in Tuscan Red ... > Why use the undec's? Do you plan to paint DGLE and use for freight > service, or is the number board style and size wrong for passenger > service as supplied on the RTR PRR tuscan units? > > Those wishing to model pre-Aug. '52 need to paint passenger locomotives in DGLE. Someone mentioned the other day about LL hinting at a DGLE run in the future. I'll probably wait for that. I noticed Walthers changed the E7 date from Sept. 1 to Indefinite. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Sep 1997 08:35:11 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: P2K E7's -Reply Content-Length: 1656 LL P2K is offering the PRR E7's only in Tuscan Red with 5 stripes and large number boards. PRR had several other paint schemes for E7's including: Brunswick Green (DGLE) 5 stripe Brunswick Green (DGLE) single stripe Tuscan Red 5 stripe Tuscan Red single stripe Tuscan Red no stripe If you want anything other than Tuscan Red 5 stripe you have to "roll your own", thus the undecs. PRR had both the old style small number board and new style 45 degree large number board E7's. All Tuscan Red E7's were the new style. The DGLE painted E7's came in both varieties of number boards, depending on when they were delivered. Bill Laird Houston, Texas email Bill. Laird@coastalcorp.com ======================================================== >>> jerry@dsop.com 09/05/97 06:25am wrote>>> I want to purchase an A-B-A set of the new Proto 2000 E7's in Tuscan Red for passenger service. >Here are the part numbers for the Proto-2000 E7's > 433-21072 PROTO E7A undec flat # bd HO 90.00 - old style small # board - both w & w/o mars light > 433-21073 PROTO E7B undec HO 45.00 > 433-21272 PROTO E7A undec 45deg # HO 90.00 - new style large # board - both w & w/o mars light Why use the undec's? Do you plan to paint DGLE and use for freight service, or is the number board style and size wrong for passenger service as supplied on the RTR PRR tuscan units? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:36:39 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Stewart F3's Content-Length: 348 I noticed that K.C. shows the Stewart F3's as being "non-Pennsy". How so? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 10:10:20 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: P2K E7's -Reply Content-Length: 1251 Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com wrote: > > If you want anything other than Tuscan Red 5 stripe you have to > "roll your own", thus the undecs. PRR had both the old style small > number board and new style 45 degree large number board E7's. > All Tuscan Red E7's were the new style. The DGLE painted E7's > came in both varieties of number boards, depending on when they > were delivered. > > Bill Laird Bill, Jerry, & Everyone, If you're going to the large numberboards, don't forget that the Pennsy's were not the semi-flush boards used by EMD, but were mounted external to the surface of the nose sheet metal. _Pennsy Power II_, page 225, shows this well on EP20 Engine 5881. See also page 331. _I Remember Pennsy_, pages 35 (on a PA), and pages 36 & 37, give a few more views. I won't say there were no EMD-design large number boards on any of the PRR EP20s, but I did not find any in these two references. Overland's O scale PRR EP20 featured the external number board. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: Number boards (was:RE: P2K E7's -Reply) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:25:12 -0400 Content-Length: 1365 SPFs: The great folks at Bowser/Cal-Scale make the unique Pennsy diesel number bord/class light combination as a brass casting. An easy fix to make your EP-whatever look closer to the truth. Just remember when you use these castings, smooth out the bump on the nose that represents EMD's original placement of the class lights. Then, as we used to say: "you're good to hook". Andrew Harmantas, waiting for the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero. Nothing moving today. > > >> If you want anything other than Tuscan Red 5 stripe you have to >> "roll your own", thus the undecs. PRR had both the old style small >> number board and new style 45 degree large number board E7's. >> All Tuscan Red E7's were the new style. The DGLE painted E7's >> came in both varieties of number boards, depending on when they >> were delivered. > > > If you're going to the large numberboards, don't forget that the >Pennsy's were not the semi-flush boards used by EMD, but were mounted >external to the surface of the nose sheet metal. _Pennsy Power II_, >page 225, shows this well on EP20 Engine 5881. See also page 331. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:01:08 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Stewart F3's Content-Length: 451 In a message dated 97-09-05 09:51:49 EDT, geshick@velocity.net writes: << I noticed that K.C. shows the Stewart F3's as being "non-Pennsy". How so? >> Which phase? Some phases are not appropriate for the PRR. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 14:08:49 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: Stewart F3's Content-Length: 619 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-09-05 09:51:49 EDT, geshick@velocity.net writes: > > << I noticed that K.C. shows the Stewart F3's as being "non-Pennsy". How > so? > >> > Which phase? Some phases are not appropriate for the PRR. > > Rich Orr I'm looking to model '49 in Erie. What phase would be appropriate? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:16:07 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: new screen name Content-Length: 463 Just getting back on-line after extensive system maintenence. Thought I'd accquire a more meaningful screen name and save TVondruska for business. I'm still along the old Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Sep 1997 13:50:37 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: P2K E7's -Reply -Reply Content-Length: 886 Rich I have never seen a DGLE single stripe E8 either. Color photos of single stripe DGLE E7's are in "Pennsy Diesel Years". I don't remember which volume(s) and don't have them here at the office to check. As I am sure you know, index of photos by manufacturer and model for volumes 1 - 4 may be found at the back of volume 4. Bill >>> SUVCWORR@aol.com 09/05/97 01:24pm wrote>>> >Bill: >Where have you ever seen a DGLE single stripe E7 or E8? Can you >direct me to a color photo reference? I have been researching PRR >passenger diesel paint schemes for a number of years and have >never found a single stripe DGLE E7 or E8. >Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:38:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Content-Length: 744 I have ordered my Railfest ticket for 1:30 PM excursion train on saturday. On Friday I am going to stop at Strasburg to ride the SRR, tour the museum, and visit several of the bookstores that others have mentioned on this list. Will stay overnight at the Red Caboose Lodge. Leaving early Saturday morning for Altoona via Enola and US 22. Going to try to get a look at the Rockville Bridge. Are there any other "Must See" locations along this route? Will stop at Huntingdon and photograph the HUNT tower. Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Date: Fri, 5 Sep 97 20:31:36 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 3247 >On Friday I am going to stop at Strasburg to ride the SRR, tour the museum, >and visit several of the bookstores that others have mentioned on this list. >Will stay overnight at the Red Caboose Lodge. Leaving early Saturday morning >for Altoona via Enola and US 22. Going to try to get a look at the Rockville >Bridge. Are there any other "Must See" locations along this route? >Will stop at Huntingdon and photograph the HUNT tower. At Strasburg, there is a gift shop at the museum. However, across the street -- at the Strasburg Railroad -- there's a gift (junk) shop that has a magnificent bookstore on its second floor. You MUST go there. Someone -- I think it may have been Dan Cupper -- mentioned a store. I forget its name, but as you leave the museum and head west towards Strasburg, it's on the right. Something "Attic" I think. It's just past a decent hobby shop on the left. When you head up Rt 22...You will likely take Rt 283 from Lancaster to Harrisburg, then north on I-83 to south on I-81. After being on I-81 for only three miles or so, signs will direct you west onto 22/322 to "State College". DO NOT EXIT; stay on I-81 south! Continue for a few more miles and cross the Susquehanna River. To your right as you cross the river you will see the Rockville Bridge. Take first exit onto Rt 11/15 north. (This route runs up the west side of the river -- parallel to 22/322.) BTW: If you take the second ramp to 11/15 south, you'll immediately be alongside the Enola Yard. It runs about five miles between the road and the river. Easy turnaround to head back north. Anyway, about a mile above I-81 (on 11/15) there will be breaks in the trees and a shoulder where you can pull over and view the Rockville Bridge. Just above that is Marysville station...still standing. Long ago there was a classification yard here...before Enola. Pics in Gunnarson's book on the Northern Central Railway. Just above Marysville the road climbs and curves to the left as it comes around the end of a mountain. Below the road to the right is BANKS interlocking. Tower is gone. Very heavy action in the area...50+ trains a day. About three more miles to town of Cove. There will be a diner on the left, then Susquenita High School. On the right there is a very wide shoulder and almost always railfans with scanners. Just above this is a broad curve to the right. 11/15 climbs and curves around another mountain end. This was the site of the Grif Teller calendar painting of the Aerotrain. You'll pass Duncannon, go about five more miles, then you can rejoin 22/322 west. The detour is worth it!!! I'll turn the next part of the tour over to Mike Bezilla and others. Not a lot to see between Duncannon and Lewistown, however. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:33:34 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Content-Length: 644 Just curious..... On a somewhat-related event, is anyone going to the East Broad Top Railfan Weekend the weekend after Altoona? Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 23:12:22 -0400 From: Zeolla Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Content-Length: 858 Jerry wrote: > Someone -- I think it may have been Dan Cupper -- mentioned a store. I > forget its name, but as you leave the museum and head west towards > Strasburg, it's on the right. Something "Attic" I think. It's just past a > decent hobby shop on the left. I don't know about anything on the right heading toward Strasburg, but there is a book store in the same building as the hobby shop, on the second floor ("Attic"?). I'll be out that way tomorrow, so I'll get the names of the stores and report bsck. Thanks for the tip on the bookstore above the Strasburg gift shop. I wasn't aware of it. Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:13:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Content-Length: 1572 On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jerry wrote: > Anyway, about a mile above I-81 (on 11/15) there will be breaks in the > trees and a shoulder where you can pull over and view the Rockville > Bridge. > > Just above that is Marysville station...still standing. Long ago there > was a classification yard here...before Enola. Pics in Gunnarson's book > on the Northern Central Railway. Minor blurb here: I almost feel strongly enough about mentioning heading down to the river, betweemn the river and the tracks, for some pix. Definitely some good opportunities for shots as trains go by overhead onto the bridge where the underpass is, but parking is a pain. What you do to get there: when you get to Marysville, there will be a sign on 11/15 advising of a PA route headed left (west). I forget the number, but it's a 3 digit number, in the 800's or 900's. Turn left onto it. Then go left again, bear right, and make a left into the "subway". (if memory serves... it should all be fairly obvious anyhow once you get into Marysville.) go under the tracks, and then go right. Keep going and you'll come to the bridge. Of course, I didn't actually stay long, so perhaps someone else can comment on whether it's worthwhile or not. I was impressed, but I am easily impressed. -D (headed down to the tracks in a few right now) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 12:18:19 -0400 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Content-Length: 1352 > Leaving early Saturday morning >>for Altoona via Enola and US 22. Going to try to get a look at the Rockville >>Bridge. Are there any other "Must See" locations along this route? >I'll turn the next part of the tour over to Mike Bezilla and others. Not >a lot to see between Duncannon and Lewistown, however. > Well, without going into a lot of detail, I would point out a few things in this segment. Port Royal. Just follow the exit sign on Rt 322 and 10 minutes later you're in this neat little town with an old (c. early 1900s) concrete hiway bridge over the main, signal masts nearby, you can see where the station was and where the old n.g Tuscarora Valley RR made a connection with the PRR. A delightful location. Also, further west, Mifflin, again just follow the exit sign. Station still standing here, I believe. And just west of here, via a narrow nacadam road on the south side of the rr, was the Denholm coaling station. Nowadays just a real wide spot in the tracks. And speaking of stations, the PRR station at Newport (east of Port Royal) still stands, tho not a pretty sight. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:20:26 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: in re: PRR F3s Content-Length: 1294 To the person from Erie inquiring about F3 phases purchased by the PRR. It's my understanding that the PRR bought F3s in two blocks. all with dynamic brakes The first purchase, built in 1946 and 1947, was what Stewart made as a Phase I ("chicken wire" side grillls), single headlight, high fans. These were purchases in ABBA sets as a 6,000 hp freight locomotive. The A units would be matched with B units with the same number but ending in a subscript B. Later, in the late 1950s, the B units would be renumbered. The second block, built in 1948 and 1949, were what Stewart sold as Phase III (Stainless steel Farr grills ala the F7), single headlight, low fans. They look very similiar to the F7 but for the two rectangular, screened DB vents behind the cabs. These were purchased in ABA sets as 4,500 hp locomotives dedicated for pusher services. Numbering was the same as the Phase I. This is why I purchased an ABB set of undec Stewart Phase I single headlight with high fans. Am interested in buying the Second A unit to complete my set. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:10:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: in re: PRR F3s Content-Length: 1814 In a message dated 97-09-06 13:21:37 EDT, LINESWEST@aol.com writes: << To the person from Erie inquiring about F3 phases purchased by the PRR. It's my understanding that the PRR bought F3s in two blocks. all with dynamic brakes The first purchase, built in 1946 and 1947, was what Stewart made as a Phase I ("chicken wire" side grillls), single headlight, high fans. These were purchases in ABBA sets as a 6,000 hp freight locomotive. The A units would be matched with B units with the same number but ending in a subscript B. Later, in the late 1950s, the B units would be renumbered. The second block, built in 1948 and 1949, were what Stewart sold as Phase III (Stainless steel Farr grills ala the F7), single headlight, low fans. They look very similiar to the F7 but for the two rectangular, screened DB vents behind the cabs. These were purchased in ABA sets as 4,500 hp locomotives dedicated for pusher services. Numbering was the same as the Phase I. This is why I purchased an ABB set of undec Stewart Phase I single headlight with high fans. Am interested in buying the Second A unit to complete my set. >> Tom's information is correct except that the 1948-49 PRR F3's were sold by Stewart as Phase IV (late) with the stainless steel Farr grills. I just received a current list of available models from Steve Stewart. All F3, F7, and F9 are out of stock. No indication they will be re-run. You will need to find a dealer who has what you are looking for. best bet is one of the large train shows or conventions. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-HELO-From: trains X-Mail-From: trains@redrose.net From: "Brian Brandt" Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 20:56:11 -0400 Content-Length: 426 The store is called the Depot Attic. From what I have been told, it has a large selection of books and other items. I likve nearby, and pass it often, but forget or in too much of a hurry to go in :( ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: in re: PRR F3s Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 11:22:43 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2334 Rich, Weren't the PRR's early units what Stewart called Phase II F3's? Those are the ones that he offered as factory painted in PRR at least. If not, what are the differences between Stewart's Phase II units and the PRR's... Also, Stewart offered PRR F7's in two phases (I think they were phase 1 early and late) The only difference is that one has the roof overhang in the back and one doesn't. Which is right for the Pennsy... or did EMD change the design midway through the PRR's orders? (It's awfully hard to see the roof overhang in photos!) Rob -------------- << To the person from Erie inquiring about F3 phases purchased by the PRR. It's my understanding that the PRR bought F3s in two blocks. all with dynamic brakes The first purchase, built in 1946 and 1947, was what Stewart made as a Phase I ("chicken wire" side grillls), single headlight, high fans. These were purchases in ABBA sets as a 6,000 hp freight locomotive. The A units would be matched with B units with the same number but ending in a subscript B. Later, in the late 1950s, the B units would be renumbered. The second block, built in 1948 and 1949, were what Stewart sold as Phase III (Stainless steel Farr grills ala the F7), single headlight, low fans. They look very similiar to the F7 but for the two rectangular, screened DB vents behind the cabs. These were purchased in ABA sets as 4,500 hp locomotives dedicated for pusher services. Numbering was the same as the Phase I. This is why I purchased an ABB set of undec Stewart Phase I single headlight with high fans. Am interested in buying the Second A unit to complete my set. >> Tom's information is correct except that the 1948-49 PRR F3's were sold by Stewart as Phase IV (late) with the stainless steel Farr grills. I just received a current list of available models from Steve Stewart. All F3, F7, and F9 are out of stock. No indication they will be re-run. You will need to find a dealer who has what you are looking for. best bet is one of the large train shows or conventions. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Reminder About Railfest tickets Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 13:43:49 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1456 Just a reminder if you are joining the group for RailFest 97 on Saturday, Oct. 4: You are responsible for purchasing your RailFest AND excursion ticket directly, on your own, prior to the event. (See http://www.railroadcity.com.) As of over a week ago, the 1:30 excursion the group will be on was 50% sold out! About a week before the event, I will poll the list for those with excursion tickets. I have an arrangement with the museum for a section of seats to be reserved for us!!! I will also be taking dinner reservations at that time. ITINERARY: 9:00 a.m. - Meet at museum. "PRR-Talk" name tags (w/e-mail addresses) disbursed Morning - Tour Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum (new movie) 11:00 a.m. - Informal Lunch (TBD) 1:00 p.m. - Gather at train station for 1:30 excursion 1:30 p.m. - Amtrak excursion up and around Horseshoe Curve to Gallitzin and back Afternoon - Tour Conrail Shops 6:00 p.m. - Dinner, probably at Hoss's (meeting room has railroad motif) Hope to see you there! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Sep 1997 12:45:00 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday -Reply Content-Length: 1070 >>> jerry@dsop.com 09/05/97 07:57pm wrote>>> Someone -- I think it may have been Dan Cupper -- mentioned a store. I forget its name, but as you leave the museum and head west towards Strasburg, it's on the right. Something "Attic" I think. It's just past a decent hobby shop on the left. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't remember the name of the store but it is full of railroad paper (passes, stock certificates, calendars, timetables, etc.) and lots of other railroad memorabilia including some 12" to the foot scale switch stands, headlights, lanterns, locks, badges, etc.) Definately worth a visit and plan an hour or two for browsing. Bill Laird Houston, Texas email Bill.Laird @coastalcorp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 14:16:45 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Newsgroup HO locomotive survey Content-Length: 692 There is currently a survey in progress in the "rec.models.raiload" newsgroup. You can vote for three diesel locomotives you would like to see produced in HO. It must be a locomotive used by atleast two roadnames for which a quality model does not exist. Here's your chance to let manufacturers know what you want to see. My votes? 1. Baldwin Centipede 2. FM Erie-builts 3. Baldwin Shark -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Newsgroup HO locomotive survey Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 15:47:51 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1061 >There is currently a survey in progress in the "rec.models.raiload" >newsgroup. You can vote for three diesel locomotives you would like to >see produced in HO. It must be a locomotive used by atleast two >roadnames for which a quality model does not exist. I don't do newsgroups, but feel free to pass along my vote... > > Here's your chance to let manufacturers know what you want to see. >My votes? > > 1. Baldwin Centipede > 2. FM Erie-builts > 3. Baldwin Shark Baldwin Centipede and Baldwin Shark..both painted for passenger service. I know other roads used the Sharks, what about the Centipedes? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Newsgroup HO locomotive survey Content-Length: 689 > I know other roads used the Sharks, what about the Centipedes? No other roads used the sharks for passenger service, only the freight sharks. The Pennsy version would of course be painted for freight service. The other roads which used DR6-4-2000's (what we think of as passenger sharks) all had the "babyface" version of same. CNJ of course had Babyface double-enders. SBD and NdeM also had Centipedes, but not exactly the same as the Pennsy ones. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:16:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: in re: PRR F3s Content-Length: 1319 In a message dated 97-09-08 11:24:02 EDT, robs@protocol.zycad.com writes: << Weren't the PRR's early units what Stewart called Phase II F3's? Those are the ones that he offered as factory painted in PRR at least. If not, what are the differences between Stewart's Phase II units and the PRR's... Also, Stewart offered PRR F7's in two phases (I think they were phase 1 early and late) The only difference is that one has the roof overhang in the back and one doesn't. Which is right for the Pennsy... or did EMD change the design midway through the PRR's orders? (It's awfully hard to see the roof overhang in photos!) >> Rob: The factory painted Stewart F3's are correct for the PRR. There were very few true Phase I F3's built. PRR first order of F3 were Phase II and the second order were Phase IV. BTW phases in locomotives have generally been established in Extra 2000 a publication dedicated to diesel locomotives. PRR also had both the early and late F7's. The change in the roof occurred during the production of the PRR order. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 17:17:12 -0400 From: "C. Conan Evans" Subject: Re: Newsgroup HO locomotive survey Content-Length: 1906 Jerry Britton wrote: > >There is currently a survey in progress in the "rec.models.raiload" > >newsgroup. You can vote for three diesel locomotives you would like > to > >see produced in HO. It must be a locomotive used by atleast two > >roadnames for which a quality model does not exist. > > I don't do newsgroups, but feel free to pass along my vote... > > > > Here's your chance to let manufacturers know what you want to see. > > >My votes? > > > > 1. Baldwin Centipede > > 2. FM Erie-builts > > 3. Baldwin Shark > > Baldwin Centipede and Baldwin Shark..both painted for passenger > service. > > I know other roads used the Sharks, what about the Centipedes? > > Centipedes were also used by the Seaboard and Mexician National RR. > What manufacturers should note is that Pennsy fans need to buy them in > pairs, sortof like the FT from Stewart, with a drawbar connecting the > two. The other railroads used them individually. Trains did an > article about them back in the mid '80s; I'll find it. I'm not following the thread on the news group, but remember, the loco must be marketable in AT&SF. Just about all locos out there in mass production have the Santa Fe war paint on them and if you want a quality model, its prototype must have been on the Santa Fe. Conan Evans member of the Baltimore Society of Model Engineers and the B&O Historical Society and just back from Bayview Yard > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:36:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: more on HO pennsy U-boats Content-Length: 1353 A bit more research has revealed the following: a) indeed as reported here earlier by JD Panza the Pennsy U30Cs had the same carbody as the U28Cs b) what this means is that since Athearn offers the U30C in Pennsy you need to get U28C's! (Of course, Athearn offers *those* in Penn Central. Argh.) c) the sideframes on the Athearn are GSC sideframes, appropriate for the Pennsy U28Cs, but not the U30Cs. Double argh! d) the Pennsy U30Cs used Adirondack trucks. Detail Associates is listed as making Adirondack (AD) sideframes for the Athearn C truck (dash 7 style, but some spot checks revealed they should be the same as on the U boats) in the Walthers paper 1997 catalog, but the part numbers do not exist in the online catalog e) but.... the Atlas U33C/U36C has Adirondack style trucks! Bingo. f) better yet, the Atlas C30-7 is available with either truck style. I ordered spare side frames from Atlas. Maybe I'll get a second U33C and create Atlas-powered Athearn-bodied custom-painted Pennsy U28 and U30Cs with correct trucks. Anyone got pointers to decal numbering that's correct for the GE U-boats? ;-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Union Station Products Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 20:10:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1333 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ever since I began selling PRR car sides from Union Station Products, I have been amazed by the number of inquiries I have received from PRR modelers wanting interchange cars with other roads. Rather than continuing to answer these queries individually, I now have the entire Union Station Products catalog online. Feel free to browse the listing at "Merchandise Service" at http://www.dsop.com/merchandise . Next up I will be offering core kits and sides from Eastern Car Works. (The ECW core kits are used to make up the USP cars, so it only makes sense that I offer these as well.) Thanks again to those who have already purchased through me. Proceeds will benefit my crusade for greater bandwidth! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:16:08 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: RE: locomotive survey Content-Length: 918 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Recently, Jerry Britton wrote: >I know other roads used the Sharks, what about the Centipedes? They were widely used on the SAL and NdeM (they were the last lot in active use- do any of them exist today, I wonder?) I understand UP was looking at the Centipede at one point- reportedly road numbers 998 and 999 were assigned, but they were never built. Speaking of Sharks: does anyone have a progress report on the HO passenger Shark that a SPF was supposed to be tooling? Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:23:57 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: more on HO pennsy U-boats Content-Length: 718 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- U-boat info. Builder model PRR class numbers bld date U28C GF28a 6520-6534 9-10/66 U30C GF30a 6535-6539 1/67 Paint scheme was the large calendar numbers, no name, keystones only. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 21:17:06 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: Newsgroup HO locomotive survey Content-Length: 1247 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- I'll second the Centipede (available in Brass for $1800.00) ant the Shark. Aloha, Eric Jerry Shickler wrote: > There is currently a survey in progress in the "rec.models.raiload" > newsgroup. You can vote for three diesel locomotives you would like > to > see produced in HO. It must be a locomotive used by atleast two > roadnames for which a quality model does not exist. > > Here's your chance to let manufacturers know what you want to see. > My votes? > > 1. Baldwin Centipede > 2. FM Erie-builts > 3. Baldwin Shark > > -- > Jerry Shickler > Erie, PA > geshick@velocity.net > > -------------------- > -------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: locomotive survey Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:40:47 -0400 Content-Length: 970 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings, Today the only existent Baldwin Cab Units built for the North American market are the two ex NYC RF-16's that gained fame on the D&H. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: locomotive survey > Date: Monday, September 08, 1997 11:16 PM > use- do any of them(Centipede) exist today, I wonder?) I understand UP was looking > at the Centipede at one point- reportedly road numbers 998 and 999 were > assigned, but they were never built. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:03:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: more on HO pennsy U-boats Content-Length: 970 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > U-boat info. > > Builder model PRR class numbers bld date > U28C GF28a 6520-6534 9-10/66 > > U30C GF30a 6535-6539 1/67 > > Paint scheme was the large calendar numbers, no name, keystones only. Just like the Athearn scheme....:-) Of course, I still need to get the decals for the numbers. Last night I did some checking... no luck. Actually, has anyone done anything along the lines of compiling a catalog of PRR decals? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: more on HO pennsy U-boats Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:14:22 -0400 Content-Length: 1074 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Somone on this list does have a listing of Pennsy decals. It was posted many months ago, and I can't get to it from my machine's files. It was rather comprehensive, and I remember e-mailing the author to voice my objection that any decal from Walthers would receive serious consideration by any modeler. He replied, asking me for some critical reviews so he could post some opinions next to each decal he had listed. As with most everything else in my life, I haven't gotten around to it yet. Later, Andrew Harmantas, SPF and dynamic procrastinator > . > > . Actually, has > anyone done anything along the lines of compiling a catalog of PRR > decals? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: more on HO pennsy U-boats Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 10:19:06 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1125 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Actually, has >anyone done anything along the lines of compiling a catalog of PRR decals? Yes. I have links to it on "KC", but the server's not responding well right now as I am doing a monthly complete backup. (Nightly incrementals are always done at 2 a.m.) When "KC" is accessible, check http://prr.dsop.com/model/index.html . A link is there to a pretty extensive decal cross reference. However, it does not include specifics of what's in a decal set. Provides only the publisher's title for the set. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Proto 2000 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 10:29:10 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 943 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone know if the P2K E7's ever shipped? Walthers had been saying 9/1, then 9/6. The "Railroad Telegraph" made no mention of them in their new issue, nor did they say they arrived. Anyone know? RELATED: Response has been so overwhelming for the P2K PRR GP9's due later this month, that Life Like has announced a third road number!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: more on HO pennsy U-boats Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 10:37:30 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1143 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- I have a pretty complete catalog of PRR decals on my web site... http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR The Microscale set isn't all that bad.... Rob >> U-boat info. >> >> Builder model PRR class numbers bld date >> U28C GF28a 6520-6534 9-10/66 >> >> U30C GF30a 6535-6539 1/67 >> >> Paint scheme was the large calendar numbers, no name, keystones only. > >Just like the Athearn scheme....:-) Of course, I still need to get the decals >for the numbers. Last night I did some checking... no luck. Actually, has >anyone done anything along the lines of compiling a catalog of PRR decals? > >-D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Proto 2000 Content-Length: 1010 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone know if the P2K E7's ever shipped? Walthers had been saying 9/1, > then 9/6. The "Railroad Telegraph" made no mention of them in their new > issue, nor did they say they arrived. Anyone know? > > RELATED: Response has been so overwhelming for the P2K PRR GP9's due > later this month, that Life Like has announced a third road number!!! As of this AM the E7's are listed as "in stock", the GP9s (at least PRR) as 10/01 delivery. So, this is off topic, but the new "ad" is somewhat annoying. I think it would be less so if it were at the bottom, above the footer... Oh well. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Subject: CID, NMRA upcoming Meets Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:19:28 -0500 (EST) Content-Length: 2511 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings All, The Central Indiana Division of the Midwest Region, NMRA will be holding a September Meet/Sale this month at Greenfield Indiana to the East of Indianapolis followed by a meet in October in Bedford Indiana South of Indy in stone country. Here is a brief description of both meets. September 28, 1997 (Sunday) - Greenfield, Indiana Greenfield - Dealer & Modular Show & Meet Hancock County 4H Fairgrounds - 11 AM to 4 PM Dealer Tables - Dining Car - Layouts - Clinics - Photo, Model & Favorite Train Contests CID's Time Saver Switching Layout and more For more information call: Jim Wilhite at (765) 644-1887 or E-Mail Roger Hensley at rhensley@ecicnet.org October 25, 1997 (Saturday) - Bedford, Indiana Bedford Show & Meet Bedford Jr. High School Gym at the corner of 16th & O street - 11 AM to 4 PM Dealer Tables - Dining Car - Layouts - Clinics - Photo, Model & Favorite Train and Favorite Caboose Contest. (No limit - bring your own track) For more information call: Bill Litkenhous at 812-275-3634 or E-Mail Roger Hensley at rhensley@ecicnet.org Also, I wish to invite you to look over the CIDs web site at: ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html Our site is updated periodically with news and information about activities in the Central Indiana Division area including club information, layouts and articles from our publication, 'The Rusty Spike'. Stop by and check us out or stop by again if it has been awhile. The CID site has been in operation since May of 1995. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:24:16 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: locomotive survey Content-Length: 670 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 97-09-08 23:21:57 EDT, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: << Speaking of Sharks: does anyone have a progress report on the HO passenger Shark that a SPF was supposed to be tooling? >> They have been delayed until late this year or early 98. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Ad blurb Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 13:49:32 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1062 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- I will give in to the numerous responses I have now received regarding the headers on "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk". I am looking to increase my bandwidth to 512K, but that triples my monthly connection costs. (Not to mention $1,200 in changeover costs.) I was hoping to offset some of that cost via advertising. It is very hard to justify increased costs when the majority of my "product" is free. However, I will remove the headers this evening. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Ad blurb Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 14:26:02 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 716 On 9 Sep, "Jerry Britton" wrote: > I will give in to the numerous responses I have now received regarding > the headers on "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk". Having the ad at the beginning of each article renders the scan window of my mail reader useless. The subject is still there, but the rest of the line carries no information. Good luck with your business! As soon as my budget recovers from my N Scale PRR E7 purchase, I'll be buying some car sides to go with them! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bob@amsignal.com Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:15:48 Canada Central Standard Time Subject: None Content-Length: 1985  L  B Received: by bob.amsignal.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCBD34.4D106380@bob.amsignal.com>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:23:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01BCBD34.4D106380@bob.amsignal.com> From: Bob Zoeller To: "PRR-Talk@dsop.com" , 'Derrick J Brashear' Subject: RE: Proto 2000 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:22:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Confirming, Walthers has 433-21116 E7A, 433-21117 E7A (second number), 433-21118 and 433-21119 (two separate number E7B) in stock. ---------- From: Derrick J Brashear Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 1997 10:03 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Proto 2000 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone know if the P2K E7's ever shipped? Walthers had been saying 9/1, > then 9/6. The "Railroad Telegraph" made no mention of them in their new > issue, nor did they say they arrived. Anyone know? > > RELATED: Response has been so overwhelming for the P2K PRR GP9's due > later this month, that Life Like has announced a third road number!!! As of this AM the E7's are listed as "in stock", the GP9s (at least PRR) as 10/01 delivery. So, this is off topic, but the new "ad" is somewhat annoying. I think it would be less so if it were at the bottom, above the footer... Oh well. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 09 Sep 1997 14:35:40 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Decals (was more on HO pennsy U-boats) Content-Length: 2081 Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>> shadow@DEMENTIA.ORG 09/09/97 09:29am wrote>>> Just like the Athearn scheme....:-) Of course, I still need to get the decals for the numbers. Last night I did some checking... no luck. Actually, has anyone done anything along the lines of compiling a catalog of PRR decals? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- A good listing may be found at: www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/PRRDecals.html Personal experience with Microscale, Champion Decal, and Hearld King has been good. I try to stay away from dry transfer decals, (Clover House and others) as I haven't had much luck in applying them satisfactorly (may well be in my technique or lack thereof). Since I haven't been able to learn to apply dry transfer decals satisfactorly directly on an object, I have developed the following method which I find works for me. I apply dry transfer decals to a sheet of decal paper (Walthers and Clover House both sell it), then cut out around the resulting composite decal and apply it in the same manner as a "traditional" wet decal. I find burnishing the dry transfer decals to the flat surface of the decal paper on a flat countertop much easier than trying to line up a series of separate numbers or letters or logos, etc. on the odd shapes of rolling stock or irregular surfaces of structures. To my way of thinking "wet" decals have a big advantage over "dry" decals in that "wet" decals may be put in on an object and moved around into exact position before lightly blotting with a paper towel to "fix" in place. Once you burnish a "dry" decal it is permanent. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:41:22 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb Content-Length: 2044 Greetings to the group, For what my late input is worth, I didn't find anything objectionable about the headers. Nor did I know that there was any negative comments being sent to Jerry about them. What Jerry provides us with, Keystone Crossing and the PRR and Conrail lists, is a precious resource. And he provides it FREE for goodness sake. What Jerry does to offset his costs, should be up to him. I hope he's not too discouraged by those who may not understand what it costs to provide such a great place for us to get together. I think appologies may be in order. Sorry, but I just had to say this. These opinions are mine and mine alone. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 01:49 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >----------------------------------------------------------------- >I will give in to the numerous responses I have now received regarding >the headers on "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk". > >I am looking to increase my bandwidth to 512K, but that triples my >monthly connection costs. (Not to mention $1,200 in changeover costs.) I >was hoping to offset some of that cost via advertising. It is very hard >to justify increased costs when the majority of my "product" is free. > >However, I will remove the headers this evening. > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:16:44 -0400 Content-Length: 2632 I agree with Drew Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > To: prr-talk@dsop.com; conrail-talk@dsop.com > Subject: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb > Date: Tuesday, September 09, 1997 5:41 PM > > Greetings to the group, > > For what my late input is worth, I didn't find anything objectionable about > the headers. Nor did I know that there was any negative comments being sent > to Jerry about them. What Jerry provides us with, Keystone Crossing and the > PRR and Conrail lists, is a precious resource. And he provides it FREE for > goodness sake. What Jerry does to offset his costs, should be up to him. I > hope he's not too discouraged by those who may not understand what it costs > to provide such a great place for us to get together. I think appologies may > be in order. Sorry, but I just had to say this. > > These opinions are mine and mine alone. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > > > At 01:49 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >I will give in to the numerous responses I have now received regarding > >the headers on "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk". > > > >I am looking to increase my bandwidth to 512K, but that triples my > >monthly connection costs. (Not to mention $1,200 in changeover costs.) I > >was hoping to offset some of that cost via advertising. It is very hard > >to justify increased costs when the majority of my "product" is free. > > > >However, I will remove the headers this evening. > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > >Progressive Information Technologies > >britton@pit-magnus.com > >http://www.pit-magnus.com > >1 JPEG = 1K words > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:47:19 +0000 Subject: FS: New video of Altoona & PRR Content-Length: 2451 At Railfest in beginning of October, the RRers Museum in Altoona will be showing and selling this tape. They are selling it now too. There is a new video "Working on the Railroad", A Story of Altoona, PA. covering the Pennsylvania RR, which is 59 minutes long. I previewed the tape at the Pgh. Chapter NRHS meeting 9/3 and got many favorable comments. This is a tape put out by Penn State WPSX-TV. It is more a documentary about 3/4 of the tape, but has lots of nice, (about 99% black and white) some still photos and a lot of film of Pennsylvania RR steam interspersed, with color video of the interviews. They interview retired railroaders (in 1989), a couple RR consultants, and a business figure in Altoona who cover topics from Altoona building up because of the Pennsy, union and the PRR, wreck of Red Arrow, women working on the railroad, safety, blacks working on the railroad, the demise starting when the Penn Central took over, and the demise of the Penn Central based on opinions of the retired workers telling that the PRR equipment was much better, and more interesting topics. One of the primary themes was to show the PRR was the STANDARD of the world. They show a T-1 4-4-4-4 being rolled out, a shot of a loco on a test bed, with wheel spinning and going nowhere, Red Arrow wreck newsreel clip. I provided them with a black and white shot of Bellefonte Central #20 to use for the cover, only for the cost of giving me one of the first tapes done. As far as I've been told, these tapes will be sold by the Altoona Railroader's Museum and also the Horseshoe Curve gift shop, and myself. If you're a member of the Museum, place your order with them. (Postage should run $3 per indivdual tape, less if there are multiples, and Penna. tax to you PA residents like myself. I am selling the tapes, postpaid, for $29.30 to PA residents, $27.55 to non-PA but US shipments. ) SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE OF $26.75 postpaid TO PENNA & $25.00 TO OTHER U.S. STATES. email me if interested. bnixon+@pitt.edu I HAVE my first actual shipment other than the "sample" tape. One of the guys said the tape really told how it really was! All the comments were positive. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 19:03:54 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: Ad blurb Content-Length: 1561 Aloha Jerry Things are slow right now but when the Symphony season starts at the end of the month I will be Happy to help and send $10.00 First check month. Eric BTW send me a mail address. Jerry Britton wrote: > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > I will give in to the numerous responses I have now received regarding > > the headers on "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk". > > I am looking to increase my bandwidth to 512K, but that triples my > monthly connection costs. (Not to mention $1,200 in changeover costs.) > I > was hoping to offset some of that cost via advertising. It is very > hard > to justify increased costs when the majority of my "product" is free. > > However, I will remove the headers this evening. > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > ----------------- > ----------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:29:04 -0400 (EDT) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: DITTO'S Content-Length: 344 DITTO's to: drm6@psu.edu (Drew McGhee), j_lang@csunix1.lvc.edu (J. Alex Lang), and hfitch@maranatha.net (Hfitch) Pete ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:51:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR classification lights Content-Length: 613 When did the PRR move lights from the pilot deck to the smokebox? I suspect it was a transition thing that occurred when engines were shopped so the move may have required several years. I am trying to determine where to put the lights on my I-1 model. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Maddox Subject: Book by Don Ball, Jr. Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:15:21 -0400 Content-Length: 558 Just got a book out of the local library, "The Pennsylvania Railroad: 1940s - 1950s". Big coffee table thing with loads of color pictures. I admit that I'm new to PRR books, so how is Don Ball, Jr for accuracy? I haven't read the text yet, just got it last night. Should I be looking for more books by this author? TIA, Doug Maddox ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Book by Don Ball, Jr. Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:44:14 -0400 Content-Length: 2142 The late Don Ball's books are worthy of your collection. The PRR of the 40's and 50's you refer to is currently available, in its second or third printing. If you are serious SPF, you should have this book. I can't speak for the text, as I'm into visuals. Then you should find Stauffer's Pennsy Power numbers one and two. And then, if you are finacially able, all of the Pennsy all color books, and Volkmer's "Hudson to Horseshoe", and the Pennsy steam, electric and diesel years, and the two landmark books by Joe Collias, "The Last of Steam" and "the Search for Steam", both are heavy on Pennsy stuff. Then there are the really good mostly or all black and white books that deal with regional stuff..."Rails Across the Midlands", "The Diesel Years", and others that don;t come to mind right now. We SPFs are fortunate in this regard--few Pennsy books are crap. Most at least have pictures, and lots of pictures were taken of the Pennsy. If you are into text/history, I would focus on anything that comes from or through the PRRT&HS. Or so it seems to me, Andrew Harmantas, SPF, who's gonna be in Strasburg this weekend. ---------- > From: Doug Maddox[SMTP:maddox@dsg-inc.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 10:15 AM > To: 'PRR Talk' > Subject: Book by Don Ball, Jr. > > Just got a book out of the local library, "The Pennsylvania Railroad: > 1940s - 1950s". Big coffee table thing with loads of color pictures. I > admit that I'm new to PRR books, so how is Don Ball, Jr for accuracy? > I haven't read the text yet, just got it last night. Should I be > looking for more books by this author? > > TIA, > Doug Maddox > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: U25B Content-Length: 508 The cover of the fall issue of the Keystone is a shot of three U25B's with trainphones. Only the first order had trainphones. Also, be aware that PRR had more than one phase of U25B. The most easily spotted difference is the windshield - with or without a center post. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Triumph 1 - new book... Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 11:09:35 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1539 Hi all, Over the weekend I just got a new PRR book, Triumph 1 - Altoona to Pitcarin. I've only read the first quarter of it so far (It's about 400 pages). A very good book so far. He starts off with a chapter containing a whirlwind history of the new world along with a short study of the east coast's geography and major waterways to put the railroad's creation in perspective. Unlike most other railroad histories I've read (like the centennial history) which progressively trace the history of the entire road, each chapter is the history of a different part of the line, from creation up till today. There are many b&w photos and maps given to support the text. (In the back there is also a color section) There is alot of the authors opinions thrown in (many about how if you want to screw anything up, let the government do it, others about how the PRR compares to the B&O) but they are clearly noted as opinion and not fact and serve to lighten up the book. It's a very interesting read overall so far. The photos and maps are great. A must have for any SPF... I paid list ($65) for mine as a donation the the B&O RR museum in Baltimore but I've seen it advertised for $55 or so..... Now to pick up Morning Sun's Steam Years volume II.... Think I need a bigger bookshelf! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:11:45 -0400 From: Jeff Levine Subject: Re: Book by Don Ball, Jr. Content-Length: 1915 Doug Maddox wrote: > > Just got a book out of the local library, "The Pennsylvania Railroad: 1940s - 1950s". Big coffee table thing with loads of color pictures. I admit that I'm new to PRR books, so how is Don Ball, Jr for accuracy? I haven't read the text yet, just got it last night. Should I be looking for more books by this author? > > TIA, > Doug Maddox > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Doug: As a PRR rail fan and a "real" librarian, Don Ball is one of the best. His books are very popular at my library and the discriptive detail is extensive however as a non-technical expert I don't know about accuracey. Here is a list of some of the books we have and they are all great. Jeff Levine jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us 1 Ball don Pennsylvania railroad, 1940s-1950s 2 Ball don Railroads 3 Ball don America's railroads : the second generation 4 Ball don America's colorful railroads 5 Ball don Portrait of the rails, from steam to diesel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:32:28 -0500 Content-Length: 3100 I'm a newcomer, but also concur. Bob Zoeller ---------- From: Harry W. Fitch IV Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 1997 6:16 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com; conrail-talk@dsop.com; Drew McGhee Subject: Re: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb I agree with Drew Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Drew McGhee > To: prr-talk@dsop.com; conrail-talk@dsop.com > Subject: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb > Date: Tuesday, September 09, 1997 5:41 PM > > Greetings to the group, > > For what my late input is worth, I didn't find anything objectionable about > the headers. Nor did I know that there was any negative comments being sent > to Jerry about them. What Jerry provides us with, Keystone Crossing and the > PRR and Conrail lists, is a precious resource. And he provides it FREE for > goodness sake. What Jerry does to offset his costs, should be up to him. I > hope he's not too discouraged by those who may not understand what it costs > to provide such a great place for us to get together. I think appologies may > be in order. Sorry, but I just had to say this. > > These opinions are mine and mine alone. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > > > At 01:49 PM 9/9/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >I will give in to the numerous responses I have now received regarding > >the headers on "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk". > > > >I am looking to increase my bandwidth to 512K, but that triples my > >monthly connection costs. (Not to mention $1,200 in changeover costs.) I > >was hoping to offset some of that cost via advertising. It is very hard > >to justify increased costs when the majority of my "product" is free. > > > >However, I will remove the headers this evening. > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > >Progressive Information Technologies > >britton@pit-magnus.com > >http://www.pit-magnus.com > >1 JPEG = 1K words > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR 643 photos... Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 16:54:23 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 672 Hi all, I finally got around to posting some of the photos that a friend of mine scanned from our trip to Williams Grove over Labor Day weekend to see PRR B4 #643 in operation. I also posted some photos of what was left of the damage to Rockville Bridge when we were there. It's at... http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/WilliamsGrove.shtml or as a link from my PRR page at http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR Hope you like it! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:16:03 -0400 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb Content-Length: 2409 Drew McGhee wrote: > > Greetings to the group, > > For what my late input is worth, I didn't find anything objectionable > about > the headers. Nor did I know that there was any negative comments being > sent > to Jerry about them. What Jerry provides us with, Keystone Crossing > and the > PRR and Conrail lists, is a precious resource. And he provides it FREE > for > goodness sake. What Jerry does to offset his costs, should be up to > him. I > hope he's not too discouraged by those who may not understand what it > costs > to provide such a great place for us to get together. I think > appologies may > be in order. Sorry, but I just had to say this. > > These opinions are mine and mine alone. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > I must agree with Drew. Most of the useful information I receive from the Net has advertising headers in it. I am sorry if the headers cause one of the readers an inconvenience, but Jerry is providing too valuable a service to us for us not to support his efforts. Microsoft Internet Explorer can be downloaded at no cost, and the mail reader can be added at the same price. I use Netscape 4. The last I knew it could be downloaded at the same price (free). Switching to a free reader may be a small price to pay. Jerry, if you can sell ads and keep Keystone Crossing and this mailing list free with faster connections, I say go for it! The alternative is for us to pay to join the mailing list. Most of us shrink from paying for such services. I was once a Compuserv/TrainNet supbscriber. Every time I logged on it cost me about $20.00 for an ad free session. Internet only cost me a monthly connect charge, which is less than $20.00 per month. Almost every worthwhile WEB site has ads. Service providers need to pay their bills somehow. I don't dial in to Compuserve anymore. The ads are more tolerable than paying out cash. PRR-Talk/KeystoneCrossing is for me the most enjoyable feature of the NET. I don't mind ads. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:49:09 -0800 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR Ballast Cleaning Train Content-Length: 337 Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs and/or blueprints of the PRR Ballast Cleaning Cars? Kevin Tully ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Ads on mailing lists - FINAL WORD Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 07:01:59 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2142 Dear subscribers: As you all know, I placed headers on list postings the other day stating that I was selling that space for advertising. That action received some flak from several readers on the "PRR-Talk" list. Some were outright objectionable; one had an operational concern about what he can preview in his mail client. In response, I removed the headers. Since their removal, I have received dozens of letters of support - some on the list - which I appreciate. (Let's end the thread on the list, though, and get back to subject.) I had explained to two readers, offline, that there is a 255 character limit on the optional header and footer. It was important to me, however, to keep the list instructions in the footer, as that has greatly decreased maintenance efforts. An experiment on the "Conrail-Talk" list yesterday, however, seems to indicate that I can place more than 255 characters in the footer. Perhaps that was a spec from version 1 of my listserv that has been updated in version 2, with no change to the manual. In any case, I now have a dual footer. Yes, it is going to stay, only to be replaced by paid advertising. I am sorry if this continues to offend anyone. To those few, you have a clear choice...but I'd prefer you stay on the list...your input is appreciated. Many have said that they prefer the ad blurb to paying for the list....I will NEVER seek to charge for access to my mailing list or to "Keystone Crossings". Thank you for your time and correspondence. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: IMPORTANT but off topic Re: Ad blurb Content-Length: 785 Nothing in this life is for free. Vendors won't accept payment in form of the personal pleasure you recieve from pursuing a hobby. I'm envious that Jerry's in a position to devote more time and energy to something important to all of us. Remember the main purpose of your favorite Train publication or book isn't to keep you informed, it's to put black ink on the bottom line. Sell the ads, Jerry. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:04:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SCame0929@aol.com Subject: My New E-mail Address Content-Length: 547 Everybody please change my E-mail address. I have a new name. Old: SCame0929@aol.com New: ScottCamer@aol.com Please make the changes in your address books. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Sep 1997 08:18:50 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Ads on mailing lists - FINAL WORD -Reply Content-Length: 1696 I think Jerry has accommodated everyone - maybe he should run for public office :-). The ads stay and are moved to the footer so they don't affect certain mail readers. Jerry, the service you provide is invaluable. Thank you for your devotation to the hobby and your public service in providing the list and "Keystone Crossings". I for one will not only read the ads, but will support the sponsors whenever I need the products they are advertising. Bill Laird Houston, Texas >>> jerry@dsop.com 09/11/97 06:32am wrote>>> .......... > Yes, it is going to stay, only to be replaced by paid advertising. > I am sorry if this continues to offend anyone. To those few, > you have a clear choice...but I'd prefer you stay on the list... > your input is appreciated. > Many have said that they prefer the ad blurb to paying for the > list....I will NEVER seek to charge for access to my mailing list > or to "Keystone Crossings". > Thank you for your time and correspondence. >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 11 Sep 1997 08:54:23 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: PRR Ballast Cleaning Train -Reply Content-Length: 1183 >>> kkratts@Alaska.NET 09/11/97 03:21am wrote>>> > Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs > and/or blueprints of the PRR Ballast Cleaning Cars? > Kevin Tully ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Model Railroading magazine did a year long series of articles in, I think 1995 (Jan to Dec), covering MOW operations and equipment. The articles were written by a former PRR maintenance supervisor, who's name escapes me at the moment. Ballast operations of several kinds were covered and there were numerous pictures throughout the series, many of PRR or former PRR equipment. I don't remember specifically if there were pictures of PRR ballast cleaning cars, but that is a good place to start looking. Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Logo Contest! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 11:31:01 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1011 Listen up you graphic gurus out there... I'd like to adopt a logo for "PRR-Talk" and I'd like to invite you all to submit your ideas for consideration. Looking for something small, no more than 60 pixels high and 100 pixels wide. Need it in .GIF or .JPG format. (Don't worry, the logo won't appear on every post! ;-) ) The reward? Plenty of satisfaction and my thanks! Now doesn't that sound enticing? 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Pullman-Standard Library Book Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 15:33:00 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1346 New item appeared on eWeb today... The Official Pullman-Standard Library Book (item #289067) The Official Pullman-Standard Library.Vol. 3 Great Northern-Northern Pacific-SP&S.W. David Randall & William M. Ross. 216 Pages. Plenty of Pictures. Hard Cover. Buyer Pays Shipping. Date auction ends: 09/18/97 08:17:16 Pacific Daylight Time Current bid is $1.00 As you see, it's not the PRR volume (which is volume 4). However, there are enough passenger modelers on the list that are doing interchange traffic that I thought it was worth the mention. My recommendation: Do not bid until minutes (or at least hours) before the close of the auction. I bought Volume 4 this way...with the winning bid submitted 3 minutes before close. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: Triumph 1 - new book... Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:58:08 -0700 Content-Length: 2296 OK, I admit my ignorance. What is an SPF? Some sort of Pennsy Fan I presume? John > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Schoenberg [SMTP:robs@protocol.zycad.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 8:10 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Triumph 1 - new book... > > Hi all, > > Over the weekend I just got a new PRR book, Triumph 1 - Altoona to > Pitcarin. I've only read the first > quarter of it so far (It's about 400 pages). A very good book so far. > He starts off with a > chapter containing a whirlwind history of the new world along with a > short study of the east coast's > geography and major waterways to put the railroad's creation in > perspective. Unlike most other > railroad histories I've read (like the centennial history) which > progressively trace the history of > the entire road, each chapter is the history of a different part of > the line, from creation up till today. > There are many b&w photos and maps given to support the text. (In the > back there is also a color section) > There is alot of the authors opinions thrown in (many about how if you > want to screw anything up, let > the government do it, others about how the PRR compares to the B&O) > but they are clearly noted as opinion and not fact and serve to > lighten up the > book. > It's a very interesting read overall so far. The photos and maps are > great. A must have for any SPF... I paid > list ($65) for mine as a donation the the B&O RR museum in Baltimore > but I've seen it advertised for $55 > or so..... > > Now to pick up Morning Sun's Steam Years volume II.... Think I need a > bigger bookshelf! > > Rob > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: None Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:22:26 -0400 Content-Length: 611 SPF= Slobbering Pennsy Freak (I prefer Sober Pennsy Fan or Student Pennsy Fan) > OK, I admit my ignorance. What is an SPF? Some sort of Pennsy Fan I > presume? > > John Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:05:00 -0400 Content-Length: 1339 For those that have not tried this resource for photos and other information, give it a try. I have been able to get PRR photos from this site. http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/detroit/dethome.html Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress This collection of photographs from the Detroit Publishing Company Collection includes over 25,000 glass negatives and transparencies as well as about 300 color photolithograph prints, mostly of the eastern United States. The collection includes the work of a number of photographers, one of whom was the well known photographer William Henry Jackson. A small group within the larger collection includes about 900 Mammoth Plate Photographs taken by William Henry Jackson along several railroad lines in the United States and Mexico in the 1880s and 1890s. The group also includes views of California, Wyoming and the Canadian Rockies. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: What is SPF (Was RE: Triumph 1 - new book...) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 20:33:37 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 765 >OK, I admit my ignorance. What is an SPF? Some sort of Pennsy Fan I >presume? Slobbering Pennsy Fan. or Slobbering Pennsy Freak, depending upon who you talk to! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:49:36 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Logo Contest! Content-Length: 1678 So, Jerry writes, >I'd like to adopt a logo for "PRR-Talk" and I'd like to invite you all to >submit your ideas for consideration. Looking for something small, no more >than 60 pixels high and 100 pixels wide. Need it in .GIF or .JPG format. > Hmmm; shame this isn't a talk list for the Other Road, I can think of the perfect logo. In Dubins Some Classic Trains, there is a copy of a mail sticker for the 20th Century Limited- used especially for business correspondance routed on the 20ths RPO. It's even the right shape! A couple of questions: IS there a talk list for the Other Road (NYC, for the clueless)? Did PRRs Broadway have a similar sticker for mail routed on their RPO? If so, does anyone know where I can get an image thereof for graphics work? For that matter, does anyone know what color the 20th mail sticker was? The Dubin illustration is in black. Also, a final, final word on the ad thing: How about doing classifieds? Or perhaps an ad posting on a regular basis? Figure $1 a pop for a classified x 4-5 on at any given moment, couldn't hurt. By the way Jerry, how would we pay you? E-mail you a JPEG of a $1.00 bill? Good cheer to all, Bob Those Classic Trains "When we smell burning plastic, we know we did something right!" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:43:55 -0700 From: John Riedell Subject: Re: None Content-Length: 1132 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > SPF= Slobbering Pennsy Freak > > (I prefer Sober Pennsy Fan > or Student Pennsy Fan) > > > OK, I admit my ignorance. What is an SPF? Some sort of Pennsy Fan I > > presume? > > > > John > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Geez, I was just getting used to being a foamer and now this too :-) jawn ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 05:28:58 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Book by Don Ball, Jr. Content-Length: 851 In a message dated 97-09-10 13:37:41 EDT, maddox@dsg-inc.com (Doug Maddox) writes: >so how is Don Ball, Jr for accuracy? I haven't read the text yet In this book, he's pretty good. Not much text to read, it's mostly pictures, but the account of his Chicago-NY coach trip at the height of World War II is fascinating. Should I be looking for more books by this author? Unfortunately, he died before this book finished its first print run. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Logo Contest! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 06:43:38 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1283 Bob Boyd wrote: >Also, a final, final word on the ad thing: How about doing classifieds? >Or perhaps an ad posting on a regular basis? Figure $1 a pop for a >classified x 4-5 on at any given moment, couldn't hurt. I have a classified's page. It's free. But I don't think people go there often. When most people are looking to buy, the eBay site is probably the way to go...1500 rr items at any given time! > >By the way Jerry, how would we pay you? E-mail you a JPEG of a $1.00 bill? Depends on the compression! I was thinking along the lines of selling the footer for $20 a month. The subscriber list X the number of posts yeilds several thousand impressions. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Logo Contest! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 08:33:06 -0400 Content-Length: 1684 I think the ideal PRR-Talk logo would be an image of the trainphone anttenae. I don't have the time to play with the graphic, but I offer the idea to anyone who does. BTW Jerry, How are you going to put a graphic on e-mail?? regards Andy Miller >Listen up you graphic gurus out there... > >I'd like to adopt a logo for "PRR-Talk" and I'd like to invite you all to >submit your ideas for consideration. Looking for something small, no more >than 60 pixels high and 100 pixels wide. Need it in .GIF or .JPG format. > >(Don't worry, the logo won't appear on every post! ;-) ) > >The reward? Plenty of satisfaction and my thanks! Now doesn't that sound >enticing? 8-) > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: USP PS31L From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 09:06:08 -0400 Content-Length: 4131 . . . personal stuff set out Jerry, I'm puting the rest of this reply on the list. Its probably of interest to others. > >USP will be doing the P85B very soon. That's good news to me. My consist >report for the 1953 Liberty Limited shows (2) P85BR's. (I assume they are >one and the same and that the "R" was the a/c that they all had by then.) right. They are the same. I have 4 scratch-built P85B's but could probably use more. Three of them will be running in the Penn Texas at next weeks open house. Since I built mine with a technique very similar to USP's, they should mate well in appearance. > >Back to the PS13L. I have one also. Don't know how I'm going to use it >yet. The '53 Liberty Limited consist report shows a PS6L...even though >these are listed in the roster as general service. USP makes the PS6L. > I don't have consist lists for particular days, but I'm sure almost any lounge car except the Broadway's HARBOR cars, could have been found on the train at one time or another. >What paints do you use on your post-war cars: Polly Scale "Tuscan Red"? >What about the roofs and ends? The trucks? > I use traditional Floquil Tuscan Red with an air brush. I mask paint my gold stripes. On smooth side cars its easy; on heavyweights its hard because of the rivets. >Whose decals do you recommend for the PS13L? > I like Champ; their printing is crisp, dense, and opaque, but Microscale has worked well too and they offer all the names! >Whose trucks? What about trucks with contacts for lighting? > Suprisingly, I've had bad luck with IHC's expensive trucks. Too many wheels out of gauge. While the detail is minimal, I've stuck to MDC. They make the 3 truck sidframes I need, "Commonwealth" for the post war, "Challeger" for the prewar, and "Pennsy Roller Bearing" for the P70s. I put the names in quotes, because its what most model RRers call them although those are not the correct names. I replace the wheel sets with Kadee or JayBee or now LifeLike P2K. The Delrin sideframes make them roll very well, and I've had no trouble spray painting them with Floquil. For power pick up for I screw two wire spring pick-ups to the underside of the bolster of the MDC truck and therefore can pickup from all 4 wheels. The wires wipe the back of the wheels. If I use Kadee wheeels or any other brand with a non-metal axel, the wire can rest on the axel, up against the back of the wheel. With metal frame truck you cant pick up from the insulated wheel as easily. Its another reason I like the MDC trucks. Oh yes, and there cheap - - like me. I have not yet put lights in my passenger cars because I'm not happy with the known solutions to variable track power. Diode drop lighting works well, until power is off. Ultimatly I think the solution will have to include a battery. I've played around with circuits to recharge batteries from track power, but in fact there is never enough power available to produce any substantial recharge. I think the batteries will have to be the ordinary AAA or N size alkaline cells and be replaced periodically. Such a circuit also means a switch to turn the light off, otherwise the batery will keep them on in the storage box (as long as it can). Its all still on the drawing board. The pick up I just described is what I use on my MU cars for motors and headlights. The 8 wheel pickup beats the flicker problem. regards Andy Miller > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: USP PS31L Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 09:21:45 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2168 > > >. . . personal stuff set out > Andy Miller wrote: >>What paints do you use on your post-war cars: Polly Scale "Tuscan Red"? >>What about the roofs and ends? The trucks? >> >I use traditional Floquil Tuscan Red with an air brush. I mask paint my >gold >stripes. On smooth side cars its easy; on heavyweights its hard because of >the rivets. Which brand and color (specifically) do you use on the roofs and trucks? >>Whose decals do you recommend for the PS13L? >> > >I like Champ; their printing is crisp, dense, and opaque, but Microscale has >worked well too and they offer all the names! Do you have set numbers? > >>Whose trucks? What about trucks with contacts for lighting? >> >I have not yet put lights in my passenger cars because I'm not happy with >known solutions to variable track power. Diode drop lighting works well, >until power is off. Ultimatly I think the solution will have to include a >battery. I've played around with circuits to recharge batteries from track >power, but in fact there is never enough power available to produce any >substantial recharge. I think the batteries will have to be the ordinary >AAA >or N size alkaline cells and be replaced periodically. Such a circuit also >means a switch to turn the light off, otherwise the batery will keep them on >in the storage box (as long as it can). Its all still on the drawing board. >The pick up I just described is what I use on my MU cars for motors and >headlights. The 8 wheel pickup beats the flicker problem. DCC!!! 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Painting a Steam Loco Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 11:01:56 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1775 I asked Bruce Smith (offline) a while back about how to go about painting my Bowser K4 (which should be applicable to all steam locos). The question concerned the underframe...which needs to be painted early on due to accessability. Unlike the boiler, which should be DGLE (aka Brunswick Green), he said the underframe should be black. I have some Floquil "Grimy Black". Is this appropriate, or should I use "Engine Black", or even another color? What about the driver arms and the valve gear...both are brass in the kit. Do they get black or DGLE? Bruce also stated that the handrails (and the stanchions [if that is the right word] should be black. Anyone know otherwise? The inside of the cockpit should be some form of olive green if I recall. Any recommendations for brand and name of color? Last but not least, I'm a Lines Easterner modelling the mid-40s to mid-50s. What about the tender deck... is it red or DGLE? If red, what brand and color name? Okay, one more...What brand and color name for the gold stripes on the tender? BTW: Checked Staples yesterday for chart tape. The narrowist they carry (including special order) is 1/8". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:31:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Fall Keystone Content-Length: 1026 So, who else noticed that the captions for the U boat pix on both the front *and* back of this issue of the Keystone are wrong? Both are captioned as "all U-boats (front U25B, rear all U25C) but neither is. I've got a "keystone cookie" (not really, but it's a good idea. i'll see what i can do about cookie cutters) for each of the following: a) identify correctly the other locomotive on the back by number (it can be done, I already sent a correction to the Keystone's editor) b) correctly identify at least the type of the other locomotive on the front Bonus cookies if you tell us your reasoning for your conclusions;-) -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Fall Keystone Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 11:56:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2127 >So, who else noticed that the captions for the U boat pix on both the front >*and* back of this issue of the Keystone are wrong? > >Both are captioned as "all U-boats (front U25B, rear all U25C) but neither >is. > >I've got a "keystone cookie" (not really, but it's a good idea. i'll see >what i >can do about cookie cutters) for each of the following: >a) identify correctly the other locomotive on the back by number (it can be >done, I already sent a correction to the Keystone's editor) Maybe they can post a correction on the PRRTH&S Web site? Okay...poor attempt at humor! The deadline looms: Only 15 days until the site has read "Everything is new as of September 27" for a whole year! What a $%^&*@#$ embarrassment! IMHO, this is an example of a site that shouldn't be online. If you're gonna have an Internet presence, you have to keep after it. Those who send e-mail to the address on the site never get responses. I have contacted the PRRTH&S otherwise and have not gotten a response. I was saddened to hear that the same people were doing the site for the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (Strasburg). I had volunteered but they said they had it covered. That was over six months ago! I sent a follow up e-mail to the Friends of the Museum and, guess what, never heard from anyone. Thankfully, your submissions to "Keystone Crossings" and the efforts of others (Mark Bej, Bruce Smith, Derrick Brashear, etc.) give the Pennsy a proper presence on the Web. Keep up the good work!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Painting a Steam Loco From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 12:00:11 -0400 Content-Length: 1332 . . . > >The inside of the cockpit should be some form of olive green if I recall. >Any recommendations for brand and name of color? > My impression is that it was much lighter than that, although it probably weathered to soot black. >Last but not least, I'm a Lines Easterner modelling the mid-40s to >mid-50s. What about the tender deck... is it red or DGLE? If red, what >brand and color name? > I asked this questuion some time ago - with unsatisfactory response. >Okay, one more...What brand and color name for the gold stripes on the >tender? > 1950? Gold stripes on the tender? Not unless its a T1 >BTW: Checked Staples yesterday for chart tape. The narrowist they carry >(including special order) is 1/8". > I get my 1/64 th tape at Charrette. They have several outlets in the Boston area, but they do exists elsewhere. They may do a mail order business. I'll check. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Painting a Steam Loco Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:26:00 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1178 On 12 Sep, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > >BTW: Checked Staples yesterday for chart tape. The narrowist they carry > >(including special order) is 1/8". > > > I get my 1/64 th tape at Charrette. They have several outlets in the Boston > area, but they do exists elsewhere. They may do a mail order business. I'll > check. Try http://www.charrette.com. There's one in Philly: Philadelphia, PA 2020 Chestnut Street 19103 (215) 563-5600 Fax (215) 563-0040 Hours: Mon - Fri - 9:00 to 5:30 Sat - 10:00 to 5:30 Sun - 12:00 to 5:00 Also, orders can be made online via a link on their home page, under "What's new"/"Online ordering". They are the big competition for Staples around here (Boston), and carry a much larger line of artist's supplies as well. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Model Railroad Planning 1998 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 13:36:59 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 946 The MR web site has the promo for the 1998 issue of Model Railroad Planning. (I find this to be a great resource.) Among the articles is this: "A prototype helper district in Pennsylvania provided the basis for the design of an entire HO railroad; learn more in Jim Hertzog's 'Locust Summit Legacy.'" This periodical normally ships around March. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting a Steam Loco Content-Length: 847 I'm about to begin painting my MDC kits. The brass drivers need painting. Should they be black, gunmetal or some other color? Oh, Jerry. Desktop publishing has made chart tape or line tape nearly obsolete. I used to buy it through art stores that also sold presstype (dry transfer) lettering and graphics arts supply houses. Most of it is sold in sizes measured in points, units of 1/72" from hairline (one half point or 1/144") on up. Good hunting. Tom ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:20:53 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: photos wanted Content-Length: 2601 Hello all, I have a project going in connection with the business development: I am presently putting together a web site called The Limited, which will be devoted specifically to passenger service history and modeling (in much the same sense as KC is for PRR). This site is shaping up into a major work: there are presently 65+ pages. Topics include: * The Railroads (the great passenger carriers) * The Great Trains (a detailed look at equipment, trains and types of service) * Great Destinations (where you went when you traveled in style) * The Model Railroad Hobby (facts about the hobby) * Those Classic Trains (business stuff) * The Industry (including an extensive look at how plastic models are made) As part of this, I need several photos: * one section will deal with model railroading activities: I need photos of nice trackwork, scenery shots, structures, rolling stock, motive power, etc. If you have a couple of really nice shots of your modeling (the kind you see in MR or RMC), they would really help to explain the hobby to the outside world. * other sections will deal with historical railroads and passenger trains, for which I need action shots of - ideally - historical period passenger service. Station scenes, trains rolling thru scenic vistas, human interest shots, etc. (as distinct from static builders photos) are badly needed. These photos need to be your original work, or photos you hold publication rights to (please do not clip old Trains mags!). If you have submitted them to the hobby mags, we will have to check to see if they have any objections. Those Classic Trains will pay a users fee plus credits for each photo: here's your chance to get your modeling on the web! In addition, if I can find a really nice photo for our box art, there will be an additional fee paid. I hope to have the site up on dsop.com by Dec. 1 for final phase testing and establishing links, and will have it open on Jan. 1. So if you have a useful photo, please get back to me promptly so I can work it into the format. Thank you! Bob Those Classic Trains PS: Has anyone seen the Pliobond tank car go thru their area lately? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:37:25 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: SPF Content-Length: 1086 And John Riedell writes: >Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: >> >> SPF= Slobbering Pennsy Freak >> >> (I prefer Sober Pennsy Fan >> or Student Pennsy Fan) > >Geez, I was just getting used to being a foamer and now this too :-) > >jawn Actually, a foamer, or FOAMITE (Far Out, Advanced, Mentally Incompetant Train Enthusiast) is the generic for railfans. Now that you have grown up and are playing with the Standard Railroad Of The World* you advance to the more prestigous SPF. The Few, The Proud, The SPF. I love the smell of resistor grids in the morning! Try to be humble. Bob Those Classic Trains (* or- considering- would that now be the "Standard Roadbed Of The World"?) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:17:07 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: SPF Content-Length: 901 Robert A. Boyd wrote: > Actually, a foamer, or FOAMITE (Far Out, Advanced, Mentally Incompetant Train Enthusiast) is the generic for railfans. Now that you have grown up and are playing with the Standard Railroad Of The World* you advance to the more prestigous SPF. The professional railroaders around here use the term "Buffs." > (* or- considering- would that now be the "Standard Roadbed Of The World"?) > Or maybe, God forbid, the "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Steve B. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:04:17 -0400 Content-Length: 2019 I have a dream of seeing a restaurant turned into a railroad station. Maybe I should include having a bike path turned into a railroad right of way. And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? (A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) Any suggestions folks ? Like, maybe a Phantom type character like in the comics that hits them with a fist bearing a Keystone ring that marks them for life! (instead of the Phantoms trademark skull ring) Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 > The professional railroaders around here use the term "Buffs." > > > (* or- considering- would that now be the "Standard Roadbed Of The World"?) > > > Or maybe, God forbid, the > > "Standard Bike Path Of The World." > > Steve B. ---------- > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: SPF > Date: Friday, September 12, 1997 9:17 PM > > Robert A. Boyd wrote: > > > Actually, a foamer, or FOAMITE (Far Out, Advanced, Mentally Incompetant > Train Enthusiast) is the generic for railfans. Now that you have grown > up > and are playing with the Standard Railroad Of The World* you advance to > the > more prestigous SPF. > > The professional railroaders around here use the term "Buffs." > > > (* or- considering- would that now be the "Standard Roadbed Of The World"?) > > > Or maybe, God forbid, the > > "Standard Bike Path Of The World." > > Steve B. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:37:21 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Horse Shoe Curve trips Content-Length: 595 Will the Altoona Railfest trips to Horse Shoe Curve go all the way up, through the tunnel, and around the loop at Gallitzin? Or will they just cross over and come back at MG or someplace? Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:38:49 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: eternal damnation for model manufacturers! Content-Length: 1437 Then, Harry Fitch added: >And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be >given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all >models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? >(A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) > >Any suggestions folks ? Try this, Harry: Given the VAST assortment of stuph that has made the Broad Way over time, imagine the PRR Of Old, with all those erstatz locos and cars (every last Ben Franklin closeout one of them- fifty years worth) grown up into real trains. Now put Our Villians in an open coupe on a bitterly cold, wet, miserable November night (oh, about 3.00 am) waiting at a grade crossing for ALL those trains to pass- seeing ALL those crude plastic cars dipped in house paint- hearing ALL those flat wheels go a-thumping by- sweating out ALL those poorly mounted couplers and out of gauge wheelsets that might cause a pileup at any second- and seeing ALL of them lettered PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD Would that do? Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:35:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Content-Length: 774 On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be > given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all > models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? > (A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) I personally think the PRR DD40 was a good idea. A shame the management didn't agree! -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:01:05 -0700 From: Roger Elliott Subject: Re: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Content-Length: 1428 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all > models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? > (A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) > > Any suggestions folks ? > > Like, maybe a Phantom type character like in the comics that > hits them with a fist bearing a Keystone ring that marks them > for life! (instead of the Phantoms trademark skull ring) > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > You want to talk about screwy modelling?!? When I bought my brass S-2 6-8-6 turbine, it came painted........ hold onto your drive rods......................................................... Union Pacific Greyhound scheme! And very nicely done I might add but obviously one of those things from a very wishful mind..................... Needless to say it is now properly painted (I hope) in Brunswick Green. My only wish is that I could find one in N-scale! Roger Elliott ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:41:37 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Content-Length: 883 Roger Elliott wrote: > > You want to talk about screwy modelling?!? When I bought my brass S-2 > 6-8-6 turbine, it came painted........ hold onto your drive > rods......................................................... > > Union Pacific Greyhound scheme! And very nicely done I might add but > obviously one of those things from a very wishful > mind..................... > Awww, they probably just noticed that it had "four wheels". "There's a difference?" Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Swat them with a sleeper. Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:17:06 -0400 Content-Length: 2223 My original post is listed below. I want to clear up the idea that I am against free lance modeling or dream modeling from a perspective that the PRR still exists. This I think is a wonderful exercise in modeling imagination, planning and does require skill to make it happen. I also realize the personal nature of model railroading with different tastes and reasons for enjoying modeling in the first place. The great Mel Thornburgh who could turn parts without a real lathe used British style track on his model railroad because he liked it! (His models are still on display at the B&O Museum in Baltimore) I just get so tired of going to model train shows and seeing venders with tables full of factory and custom painted equipment lettered for the PRR. Equipment that is not even near anything that the PRR ever owned or intended to buy. It seams to cross the boundaries of cost, manufacturer & vendor. What next? A PRR freight set of LNER or Southern Railway (British) goods wagons with the PRR lettering splashed across them. (buffers, vacuum brakes and all) If this happens we can have them get on the "Q" (in line) and swat them with a "sleeper" (cross tie) Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ************************************************************ Original Post And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? (A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) Any suggestions folks ? Like, maybe a Phantom type character like in the comics that hits them with a fist bearing a Keystone ring that marks them for life! (instead of the Phantoms trademark skull ring) Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com Date: Sat, 13 Sep 97 10:28:39 EDT Subject: Re: Horse Shoe Curve trips Content-Length: 1459 Rich and all: The Altoona Railfest trips to Horseshoe Curve do go all the way up through the Gallitzin tunnel. Just after the tunnel exit, there is the loop you mentioned, which is essentially a long wye leg that allows direct return to the Portage tunnel for the trip back down the mountain. Conrail often uses this loop to return pushing helpers. At the last two Railfests, a Conrail SD-45-2 (66xx series, former E-L) was on one end of the train and an Amtrak engine was on the other (Genesis last year). This allows an engine to always be at the head end without a need to turn the train at Altoona. The seats in the passenger cars can be turned so that each excursion's passengers are always facing forward. Not since our beloved PRR days have there been this many passenger trains operating out of Altoona's station over such a short time span. Also note that the regularly scheduled Amtrak east and westbound Pennsylvanian and Three Rivers trains will be through sometime during the day, hopefully without interruption. Carl Haslett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:15:41 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR classification lights Content-Length: 1452 Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: > > When did the PRR move lights from the pilot deck to the smokebox? Don, Lights on the pilot beam were markers for engines running backward, either light or at the rear of a train movement. They were red to the rear and yellow to the sides, turned yellow rear with the red inward when clear on a siding, and other variations when running wrong hand on multiple track. Smokebox lights are classification lights, white for extra trains and green for a train with a zection following. (The last section did not carry green.) My 1925 PRR _Book of Rules_ shows both, and indicates that pilot markers and class lights were to be used simultaneously where appropriate. This does not date the application or removal of lamps, but should help on usage. A quick glance through _Pennsy Steam and Semaphores_ shows some engines with pilot markers and some without. I think a PRRT&HS _Keystone_ may have explored this, but will have to look when I have a little more time. Steve Bartlett Former Beaumonter ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:52:56 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Re:Swat them with a sleeper Content-Length: 2210 Harry Fitch wrote: <> Actually I am working in conjunction with one other fellow to come up with a "what would have happened if the ill-fated Penn Central merger never happened scheme". It has brought up a number of interesting items and this is just the two of us trying to hammer out a real life scheme. We have posted emails back and forth to the tune of about 2 a day that are each 1-2 full printed pages long. I takes along thought out process like: what would Pennsy (like UP) have bought out for railroads, roster (mix and match i.e. early diesel era on PRR or "Standard Railroad of the World" with fewer classes but alot of each kind), cars (would they have kept building them for themselves or gone to commercial companies for most of their cars), and operations (train types and how many, symbols and the like). As you can see it is very complicated. I have 1 engine completed in modern PRR (Kato Dash 9 in DGLE and 5-stripe--sharp!!) and two more in the works. If anyone would be interested in helping with this project feel free to email me direct at PRR SD45@aol.com. Finally it is alot fo fun to work on. But as we say--to each his own. For anyone interested though we are still just working on the buyout phase of the plan. We have to figure this out so we can get the final roster for the year of the buyout. We also have to think of what railroads would have been bought by the NYC. It is very comprehensive, but, as stated earlier, fun. Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:26:56 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting a Steam Loco Content-Length: 2464 This is in response to the question on painting the K-4 steam loco. I recently posted this question on the AOL train message boards and go this response. I will quote this from his response: <> That was the response I got. I will say that I used strictly Scalecoat 2 paints on mine (Brunswick Green 2006, Graphite and Oil 2003, and Oxide Red 2002) with excellent results and it dries to a satin finish ready for decals. I am still working on it with the other colors. My suggestion if you are very picky about it is to buy the drift cards from PRRT&HS for these colors. A few are still available and once sold out they are gone (the preceeding was NOT a paid advertisement). However I checked mine against color photos and found it to be VERY close. On the location of the marker lights it is best to find a photo of the unit you want to model around your time period. I was leafing through my pictures and some had markers on the pilot and smokebox sides, some pilot only, and some smokebox only. Even found a picture of a modernized loco with pilot mounted markers!?!? Hope this info helps. Jeremy Helms Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:31:16 -0800 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: Re: Swat them with a sleeper. Content-Length: 3335 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > My original post is listed below. I want to clear up > the idea that I am against free lance modeling or > dream modeling from a perspective that the PRR > still exists. This I think is a wonderful exercise in > modeling imagination, planning and does require > skill to make it happen. > > I also realize the personal nature of model railroading > with different tastes and reasons for enjoying modeling > in the first place. The great Mel Thornburgh who could > turn parts without a real lathe used British style track on > his model railroad because he liked it! (His models are still > on display at the B&O Museum in Baltimore) > > I just get so tired of going to model train shows > and seeing venders with tables full of factory > and custom painted equipment lettered for > the PRR. Equipment that is not even near > anything that the PRR ever owned or intended > to buy. It seams to cross the boundaries of > cost, manufacturer & vendor. > > What next? A PRR freight set of LNER or > Southern Railway (British) goods wagons > with the PRR lettering splashed across > them. (buffers, vacuum brakes and all) > > If this happens we can have them get on > the "Q" (in line) and swat them with > a "sleeper" (cross tie) > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > ************************************************************ > Original Post > > And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be > given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all > models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? > (A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) > > Any suggestions folks ? > > Like, maybe a Phantom type character like in the comics that > hits them with a fist bearing a Keystone ring that marks them > for life! (instead of the Phantoms trademark skull ring) > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". I think I understand what you mean Harry. I've seen several "unreal" PRR cars and locomotives. On the other hand, several people disagree with "Fictional" modeling. I think we should all remember that the hobby is for fun, and for some of us, a way to experiance and preserve a part of history. In the case of Jeremy and I, we are seeing what would have happened if the PRR had been able to hang on. Even colleges teach "what if" history, by having students re-write an event to see what the consiquences would have been. Kevin Tully Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 20:02:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandy Subject: test Content-Length: 546 Hello all... this is a test and also... does anyone know what ever happened to DD-2 no..5800? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Pennsylvania T-1 4-4-4-4 Duplex #5538 with train #6 at Cabin Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:31:32 -0400 Content-Length: 971 Photo of PRR T-1 in West Virginia, The Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society web page has this description and photo. Pennsylvania T-1 4-4-4-4 Duplex #5538 with train #6 at Cabin Creek Junction, West Virginia. This was during a test program the C&O was running to see if that particular design of locomotive was feasible for use on the C&O. One of these locomotives stalled at Cotton Hill, West Virginia, ending the test program. >From the Arthur Hoffman Collection. http://cohs.marshall.edu/multimedia/stevens/5538.jpg Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:00:16 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: SPF Content-Length: 1389 In a message dated 97-09-13 06:22:15 EDT, you write: << Or maybe, God forbid, the "Standard Bike Path Of The World." >> Thanks to Penn Central and Conrail it's the Standard Bike Path of Southwest Ohio. However, Penn Central Corp. and Conrail sold most of its right of ways intact with bridges. That a much better record than CSX who wants to cut up the corridors as much as possible. Much of the PRR Columbus Division has been are is being saxed as bikke paths. Springfield to Milford, an eastern suburb of Cincinnati, (Rendcomb Jct. and the Panhandles' Cincy-Richmond line now heavily used by NS is just a short distance away) is complete. Planning for paths stretching from Columbus to Xenia is underway. Construction of the path linking Xenia with Dayton will be finished this fall. Planning is underway for a path along the Columbus Division's CC&IC right-of way in Piqua, Ohio. Granted, it's not real railroading but it's better than nothing at all. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:04:10 -0400 (EDT) From: MCrim1361@aol.com Subject: Re: Swat 'em...? Punishment...? Content-Length: 902 Oh, no. . . PRR paint schemes on motive power and rolling stock that the "PRR" never owned or "intended to". . . ? Oh, no. . . surely not. . . and just how tired can you get. . . of such a criminal act. . . ? Oh, well. . . I guess you can expect this sort of thing (PRR paint schemes on who knows what) in a free country. . . what a bunch of sleaze bags. . . have they no morals at all. . . ? It doesn't seam to make sense. Perhaps they just enjoy the hobby. . . ya know whut ah mean? Marvin, the Martian ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:08:51 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Content-Length: 1293 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > ... > And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be > given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all > models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? > (A PRR Cab Forward 4-8-8-2? Somebody has got to have one) > > ... I'd hate to think of the money I would have wasted had I not found this list & the great PRR web sites before I started acquiring equipment. It's not as if the incorrect locomotives are 6 scale inches too long or something. Models with incorrect color schemes and steamers lacking the Belpaire fire box are pretty obvious. Manufacturing for those modeling "what-ifs" is fine, as long as it is marketed that way - like the ConCor/Stewart (I think) PRR "dream scheme" FT's. Just don't try to pass them off as the real thing to those who may not know. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jonathan Goldstein Subject: Railroads and B&B's Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Content-Length: 1183 I'm trying to plan a trip across PA by rail. I want to stop somewhere west of Harrisburg but before Pittsburgh and stay in a Bed and Breakfast. Does anyone know of a B&B near the rail line between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh? Clearly it would be preferable if they had some understanding of the nearby railroad. ;) _____________________________________________________________________________ Jonathan S. Goldstein jonathan@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~jonathan/home.html Any opinions offered herein shall not be considered a substitute for paid professional advice. _____________________________________________________________________________ Learn to shoot. The life you save may be your own. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:43:58 -0400 (EDT) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: Re: Railroads and B&B's Content-Length: 952 The place you want is the Station Inn-827 Front Street-Cresson,PA16630 The Inn is 9 miles west of Horseshoe Curve - 3 miles west of Gallitizin Tunnels - 15 miles west of Altoona. Rates (Last year were) $35.00 single, $50.00 for two, and $60.00 for three Breakfast is free Thomas A. Davis is the Proprietor, Tom is a rail enthusiast. For Information (814) 886-4757 - For Reservations (800) 555-4757. The Inn is across the street from the Conrail main line and has a large porch for train watching. I have stayed there and recomend the place. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:22:23 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1451 Hello all stations; I have added the following images to my site; Old Valley Forge Park Station,{Pa.} former Reading Co. Amtrak P-42 #102 {N E Direct Paint} with Harrisburg Train. Amtrak Roadrailers with "Pumpkin" GP-9. Conrail Operation Lifesaver Special Train, In Valley Forge Park. Conrail E-8 #4020 on "High Line" Phila. Pa. Conrail Caboose #21286 on NEC at Holmesburg Jct. PRR DD1 # 3836+ 3837, Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Live Steam Action on the Strasburg Railroad, Strasburg Pa. A Go Pullman Ad, on the Railcard Page Enjoy !!!! Stan -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 15 Sep 1997 09:08:41 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: PRR classification lights -Reply Content-Length: 2090 Steve Bartlet wrote a good explination between the marker lights on locomotive pilot beams and classification lights on the smokebox (original question from Don Harper and Steve's reply are both below). I just want to add that a very good picture of a PRR K4 with both types of lights may be found in the current issue of the PRRT&HS "Keystone". The watercolor "centerfold" is a headon view of a PRR K4 which very clearly shows both types of lights. Bill Laird Houston, Texas --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> sbartlet@capecod.net 09/13/97 10:40am wrote>>> Donald E. Harper, Jr. wrote: > > When did the PRR move lights from the pilot deck to the smokebox? Don, Lights on the pilot beam were markers for engines running backward, either light or at the rear of a train movement. They were red to the rear and yellow to the sides, turned yellow rear with the red inward when clear on a siding, and other variations when running wrong hand on multiple track. Smokebox lights are classification lights, white for extra trains and green for a train with a zection following. (The last section did not carry green.) My 1925 PRR _Book of Rules_ shows both, and indicates that pilot markers and class lights were to be used simultaneously where appropriate. This does not date the application or removal of lamps, but should help on usage. A quick glance through _Pennsy Steam and Semaphores_ shows some engines with pilot markers and some without. I think a PRRT&HS _Keystone_ may have explored this, but will have to look when I have a little more time. Steve Bartlett Former Beaumonter ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Painting a steam loco Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:22:14 -0500 Content-Length: 1920 Re: Andrew Miller's questions. I believe Microscale has the decal set for prewar tender striping, but I don't think that fits your era. I will check tonight and post the number. Champ has 3" and 1" stripes you could use on a T1. I also just found some new(within last year) very fine pens with gold leaf (and silver which I will use for outlining aluminum sashes on passenger cars). Need to see if this ink or paint or whatever will "bite" on our model surfaces and see what the finished thickness is. I will post name and number if successful. Devices I tried a year ago were too thick or just rolled off. My questions have to do with color. I am nearing a half century as an SPF, but still cannot get things straight. Some of conflicts may have to do with the dates of the paint specifications. 1. There are conflicting specifications for painting round locomotive plates. DGLE versus black. I model 1949-50. 2. I have seen at least one spec in the Keystone which seems to indicate that at least for the cab roof (couldn't figure out the English to see if tender cistern top was included) "M1 and later" locomotives had DGLE paint. Again I am concerned with 1949-50. 3. Although I have seen photos around my time frame with some cistern tops oxide red, most locos seem to be all DGLE (admittedly usually weathered). Since back of coal slope sheet shows as oxide red in several photos, is this because the deposit of ash and soot completely covered the oxide red on flat surfaces such as cistern top and cab roof? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joseph W. Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Railroads and B&B's Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:42:51 -0400 Content-Length: 1830 There is no station stop at Cresson (no station for that matter anyway) but Tom has picked up customers in Altoona. I don't think it's a regular service he performs so I'd ask first. Tom has told me he is working to petition Amtrak for flag stop service at Cresson. Joe ---------- > From: TVPedro@aol.com > To: jonathan@pobox.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Railroads and B&B's > Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 1:43 AM > > > The place you want is the Station Inn-827 Front Street-Cresson,PA16630 > > The Inn is 9 miles west of Horseshoe Curve - 3 miles west of Gallitizin > Tunnels - 15 > miles west of Altoona. > > Rates (Last year were) $35.00 single, $50.00 for two, and $60.00 for three > Breakfast is free > > Thomas A. Davis is the Proprietor, Tom is a rail enthusiast. For Information > (814) 886-4757 - For Reservations (800) 555-4757. > > The Inn is across the street from the Conrail main line and has a large porch > for train watching. > > I have stayed there and recomend the place. > > Pete > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: New Railroad Series on History Channel Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 10:15:21 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1546 Caught in last week's TV Guide that The History Channel is running a new 15-installment series on the history of railroading in America. I don't know if THC uses one master schedule or is localized, but in my area the show is at 10 p.m. on Monday nights, beginning last night. I taped the show and will view it later, but I caught parts during commercials of Monday Night Football. The parts I saw were excellent and contained some outstanding video of the PRR. I hope to tape the entire series. In one scene four PRR locos are barrelling towards the camera at speed. Only got a quick look. One was a GG-1, another a streamlined K-4. Bet another is a non-streamlined K-4. Didn't get a close enough look at the fourth. Program described how the railroads established standard time zones. To illustrate the differences in times between cities before standard time, the PRR schedule was shown. 8-) Anyone else see this program? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:09:06 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 3899 ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Rob Schoenberg Wed, 10 Sep 97 11:09:35 -0400 To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Triumph 1 - new book... Hi all, Over the weekend I just got a new PRR book, Triumph 1 - Altoona to Pitcarin. I've only read the first quarter of it so far (It's about 400 pages). A very good book so far. He starts off with a chapter containing a whirlwind history of the new world along with a short study of the east coast's geography and major waterways to put the railroad's creation in perspective. Unlike most other railroad histories I've read (like the centennial history) which progressively trace the history of the entire road, each chapter is the history of a different part of the line, from creation up till today. There are many b&w photos and maps given to support the text. (In the back there is also a color section) There is alot of the authors opinions thrown in (many about how if you want to screw anything up, let the government do it, others about how the PRR compares to the B&O) but they are clearly noted as opinion and not fact and serve to lighten up the book. It's a very interesting read overall so far. The photos and maps are great. A must have for any SPF... I paid list ($65) for mine as a donation the the B&O RR museum in Baltimore but I've seen it advertised for $55 or so..... Now to pick up Morning Sun's Steam Years volume II.... Think I need a bigger bookshelf! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ I've read "Triumph 1" and was generally impressed - lots of neat photos, maps etc. - but also disappointed. The author in my opinion needed a good editor. For example, political convictions are a fine thing IF they are supported by evidence. Roberts too often aren't. Moreover, if they need to be included in such a book, they belong in a separate appendix or chapter. When a photo caption has two lines on the picture and 15 on how pathetic Democrats are, an editor is needed. Second, there are a few gaffe's which surprised me considering the amount of rr knowledge Roberts must have. In one case, he speculates about a 19th century photo label "Tyrone branch" (I think), assumes it is the New Portage Horseshoe curve and wonders how there could have been two tracks there at this time. Answer: it IS the Tyrone branch. Another case in point: Roberts runs a photo of post-Johnstown flood damage but doesn't know the location. If he had consulted back issues of the KEYSTONE, esp. the issue on the Johnstown flood, he would have discovered this is Buttermilk Falls. Some of these problems might have been avoided had Roberts worked more closely with the various well-known students of the PRR, such as the folks whose work regularly appears in the KEYSTONE. The absence of these folks in his acknowledgments raises doubts about the over-all reliability of his work. Anyway, the book is still worth the price but could have been MUCH better. Maybe the next few volumes will clean up these problems. What do the rest of you think? George Pierson george.pierson@trnty.edu Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:13:28 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 3081 ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Jeff Levine Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:11:45 -0400 To: Doug Maddox CC: "'PRR Talk'" Subject: Re: Book by Don Ball, Jr. Doug Maddox wrote: > > Just got a book out of the local library, "The Pennsylvania Railroad: 1940s - 1950s". Big coffee table thing with loads of color pictures. I admit that I'm new to PRR books, so how is Don Ball, Jr for accuracy? I haven't read the text yet, just got it l > > TIA, > Doug Maddox > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Doug: As a PRR rail fan and a "real" librarian, Don Ball is one of the best. His books are very popular at my library and the discriptive detail is extensive however as a non-technical expert I don't know about accuracey. Here is a list of some of the books we have and they are all great. Jeff Levine jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us 1 Ball don Pennsylvania railroad, 1940s-1950s 2 Ball don Railroads 3 Ball don America's railroads : the second generation 4 Ball don America's colorful railroads 5 Ball don Portrait of the rails, from steam to diesel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ RE: Don Ball's accuracy, while I am no expert, his comments in my experience are generally accurate although he may occasionally slip up in referring to, for example, an engine class with the correct PRR code - but then, has anyone truly mastered the aarcane language of PRR letter/number classification? The tender classes alone are enough for a book of their own. PRR forever... George Pierson george.pierson@trnty.edu Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:22:36 CST Subject: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 3290 ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Jerry Britton Fri, 12 Sep 97 11:01:56 -0400 To: "PRR" Subject: Painting a Steam Loco I asked Bruce Smith (offline) a while back about how to go about painting my Bowser K4 (which should be applicable to all steam locos). The question concerned the underframe...which needs to be painted early on due to accessability. Unlike the boiler, which should be DGLE (aka Brunswick Green), he said the underframe should be black. I have some Floquil "Grimy Black". Is this appropriate, or should I use "Engine Black", or even another color? What about the driver arms and the valve gear...both are brass in the kit. Do they get black or DGLE? Bruce also stated that the handrails (and the stanchions [if that is the right word] should be black. Anyone know otherwise? The inside of the cockpit should be some form of olive green if I recall. Any recommendations for brand and name of color? Last but not least, I'm a Lines Easterner modelling the mid-40s to mid-50s. What about the tender deck... is it red or DGLE? If red, what brand and color name? Okay, one more...What brand and color name for the gold stripes on the tender? BTW: Checked Staples yesterday for chart tape. The narrowist they carry (including special order) is 1/8". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ RE: painting PRR steam late 40's-early 50's. From looking at many photos over the years, my own view is that the painting of the tender deck (including the back of the slope sheet) and the cab roof freightcar red was specified but optional. There are too many good color shots of PRR steam all over the system in the 1950s with no red in these areas to dismiss this as red heavily weathered. There seems to be no pattern - I've seen a color shot of a T1 tender with the red deck but a K4 of the same year without, I've modeled all my steam (year:1950) without the red partly because it's easier but also because on the Middle Division, that seemed to be the most common, based on my knowledge of the available photos. George Pierson george.pierson@trnty.edu Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:32:15 CST Subject: PRR decals; OR&W Content-Length: 1707 Does anyone know of commercial decals in HO for doing passenger cars in the 1938 Loewy scheme, the one with the Tuscan Red and darker red around the windows? Since I'm modeling 1950 on the Middle Div., there might have been some cars still in the scheme around (I've seen photos as late as 1948). Any suggestions? Also, there is a new book out on the Ohio River & Western, the narrow gauge line from Bellaire to Zanesville, OH that was owned by the PRR. This is to be sure a side-light to the St. RR of the World, but quite interesting. The book is very well done, with excellent research, maps, equipment drawings, copious photos, etc. - great for modeling as well as history. It's called "Hidden Treasure: A History of the OR&W" and it's starting to be listed in the various mail-order ads in the foamer mags. Finally, does anyone know of a color photo of the coaling wharf at Denholm on the Middle Division? I've seen plenty of b&w shots but no color. Not that it probably matters...by the time color film was widely available, the wharf was probably grey on black from years of coal dust, loco exhaust, etc. PRR forever, George Pierson george.pierson@trnty.edu Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:37:24 -0800 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains Content-Length: 637 Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs or articles about the PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. Foxburg, Mt. Jewet & Corydon Railroad Co. A Division of The Pennsylvania Railroad Corp. "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:51:02 -0800 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: PRR Into the Future Content-Length: 678 Anyone interested in helping with the development of a modern day PRR, email myself or Jeremy at one of the following: kkratts@alaska.net PRRSD45@aol.com Kevin J. Tully Foxburg, Mt. Jewet Railroad Co. A Division of The Pennsylvania Railroad Corp. "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:44:12 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: DD-2 5800 Content-Length: 1139 Sandy wrote: > > does anyone know what ever happened to DD-2 no..5800? > > H.Mummert > Sy Reich wrote an article and PRR roster "Rollcall of Pennsy Electrics", published in Railroad Magazine for October, 1962. At that time he indicated Engine 5800 was still in service. There would have been at least a few months' lead time for the article, if not longer. In the April, 1964, Trains Magazine, Bert Pennypacker, in his article "All about America's largest locomotive fleet," stated that DD-2 5800 had been retired in 1962 (page 46). That's all I have found in a quick search; although it does not indicate the disposition of the locomotive, I hope it will be of help. Stephen Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR decals; OR&W Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 19:18:07 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1713 >Does anyone know of commercial decals in HO for doing passenger cars in the >1938 Loewy scheme, the one with the Tuscan Red and darker red around the >windows? Since I'm modeling 1950 on the Middle Div., there might have been >some cars still in the scheme around (I've seen photos as late as 1948). >Any suggestions? We had a very long thread on this about two months ago. There are too many variables to make it feasible to create such a decal. First, most decal companies only print to 10.5" long. Second, there are two (or more) car lengths in question (we considered a two piece decal). Third, the question of getting such a large decal to lay flat. There were other issues as well. I had considered producing a custom decal myself, but the cost would have exceeded $15 per car! It was decided to do a paint job. Paint the entire car in gold. Mask out the horiz gold stripes with 1/64" chart tape and repaint in dark tuscan. Add another mask for the window panel and paint in tuscan. Remove both masks. Only unresolved issue was the gold stripe around the dark tuscan panel. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:58:41 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: Painting a steam loco Content-Length: 3421 Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > My questions have to do with color. I am nearing a half century as an > SPF, but still cannot get things straight. Some of conflicts may have > to do with the dates of the paint specifications. > 1. There are conflicting specifications for painting round locomotive > plates. DGLE versus black. I model 1949-50. Who can tell the difference? I would suspect that the round plated were painted with DGLE, although I cannot recall seeing a spec on this. (I have seen a spec on the paint for the Keystones on PRR power...it was supposed to be Toludine Red, to be obtained only from the Altoona Shops.) > 2. I have seen at least one spec in the Keystone which seems to > indicate that at least for the cab roof (couldn't figure out the > English to see if tender cistern top was included) "M1 and later" > locomotives had DGLE paint. Again I am concerned with 1949-50. Cab roofs and cistern decks on "older" power were painted oxide red. I believe that the G5's were the first power to not have these painted red (although the later K4s's retained the painting spec of earlier locomotives) M1's (as well as later versions) were painted entirely in DGLE. It could also well be that locomotives painted at Juniata got the red, and locomotives painted at other locations got the single color treatment. I haven't seen any M's with the oxide red, though. But, I wouldn't be suprised if I make a sweeping statement, and then learned that there was one out there! > 3. Although I have seen photos around my time frame with some > cistern tops oxide red, most locos seem to be all DGLE (admittedly > usually weathered). Since back of coal slope sheet shows as oxide red > in several photos, is this because the deposit of ash and soot > completely covered the oxide red on flat surfaces such as cistern top > and cab roof? I think so...as I recall (from Don Ball's color PRR book, as well as other sources) K's and L's (as well as H's, E's and other older locomotives) were usually painted with oxide red cab roofs and cistern decks (there is a photo in Ball's book showing that the inside of a T1's stack painted oxide red. Wanna bet just how long THAT lasted in service?). PRR power was notoriously grungy...I wouldn't be a bit suprised that these locomotives weathered quickly. I just looked at Dave Sweetland's PENNSY STEAM YEARS...if you have a copy look at E6s 1600 on page 31...you can barely make out that the cistern deck and cab roof are red (but other photos seem to show DGLE colors here...I guess that you pays your money and you takes your chances. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: New Railroad Series on History Channel Content-Length: 503 I taped to show and highly recommend it to all. Lots of streamlined steam, Big Boys, PRR steam, lots of history. Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR decals (FOM revisited) From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 08:57:56 -0400 Content-Length: 2688 >>Does anyone know of commercial decals in HO for doing passenger cars in the >>1938 Loewy scheme, the one with the Tuscan Red and darker red around the >>windows? Since I'm modeling 1950 on the Middle Div., there might have been >>some cars still in the scheme around (I've seen photos as late as 1948). >>Any suggestions? > >We had a very long thread on this about two months ago. There are too >many variables to make it feasible to create such a decal. First, most >decal companies only print to 10.5" long. Second, there are two (or more) >car lengths in question (we considered a two piece decal). Third, the >question of getting such a large decal to lay flat. There were other >issues as well. I had considered producing a custom decal myself, but the >cost would have exceeded $15 per car! > >It was decided to do a paint job. Paint the entire car in gold. Mask out >the horiz gold stripes with 1/64" chart tape and repaint in dark tuscan. >Add another mask for the window panel and paint in tuscan. Remove both >masks. Only unresolved issue was the gold stripe around the dark tuscan >panel. > > >-------------- >Jerry Britton - ------ 1/64 th chart tape is appropriate in HO for the post-war 3 stripe scheme and 5-stripe diesels, but the Lowey FOM scheme's stripes were much thinner. Someone on this list alluded to thinner tape being available, but I have never seen it. 1/64th is getting hard enough to find. Besides which, I dont know how easy it would be to handle. It hard enough to keep the 1/64 from twisting! Ironicly, the only striipe on a FOM car which could be 1/64 is the perimeter stripe around the window panel. It was wider. When I did my car, I did the thin lines with a ruling pen and gold ink and did the perimeter stripe with 1/64 tape. Since I had to cut a mask for the curved-end window panel, I used it as a placement template for the 1/64 tape perimeter stripe. So the process is: paint the car window panel color; when dry, position the curved end window panel mask; paint gold; when dry, postion the perimeter stripe tape around the window panel mask; paint light tuscan. Strip off all the masking and; when dry, rule the parallel lines. Whew! Once was enough. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:25:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Railroads and B&B's Content-Length: 901 > There is no station stop at Cresson (no station for that matter anyway) but > Tom has picked up customers in Altoona. I don't think it's a regular > service he performs so I'd ask first. Tom has told me he is working to > petition Amtrak for flag stop service at Cresson. Also note Cambria County Transit Authority used to run buses from Johnstown to Altoona a few days a week which I believe went through Cresson; I don't have their phone number handy but I'm sure 814-555-1212 could give it to you -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:00:54 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 3696 > > > RE: Don Ball's accuracy, while I am no expert, his comments in my > experience are generally accurate although he may occasionally slip up > in > referring to, for example, an engine class with the correct PRR code - > but > then, has anyone truly mastered the aarcane language of PRR > letter/number > classification? The tender classes alone are enough for a book of > their > own. > There is really nothing arcane about then Pennsy's classification system, in fact it is an extremely logical system, once you know the key. And, yes, here it is...Locomotive class...a letter designating the wheel arrangement, followed by a number designating a major modification. Next was a small "s" designating superheater equipped (dropped in the early '20since all locomotives produced by then were so equipped. The first class that didn't have the "s" was the G5 class (G stood for 4-6-0, 5 for fifth version). existing classes (such as K4s) continued their use of the small s for consistencency. In some cases a minor modification was designated by another lower case "a" or "b" designating that the modification was done to that particular locomotive. Examples are I1sa (removal of limited cutoff), M1a (inside steam lines to the cylinders), M1b (installation of thermal syphons in the firebox) K4sa (front-end throttle), T1a (installation of Walscharts valve gear) and others I can't recall at this time. Here is the entire letter designation... A 0-4-0 B 0-6-0 C 0-8-0 D 4-4-0 E 4-4-2 F 2-6-0 G 4-6-0 H 2-8-0 I 2-10-0 J 2-6-2 and later 2-10-4 K 4-6-2 L 2-8-2 M 4-8-2 N 2-10-2 O 4-4-4 (electirc) P 4-6-4 (electric) Q (4-6-4-4/4-4-6-4) R 4-8-4 (electric) S 6-4-4-6/6-8-6 T 4-4-4-4. Articlulated locomotives used combinations of these letters to build the class such as GG1 (4-6-0+0-6-4) Now for tenders...again a logical system, but, like Dr. Hill, you gotta know the territory. It went like this... the first numbers designated a rounded water capacity, in hundreds of gallons. The next letter designated whether it was a Passenger tender or a Freight tender. The third number was the firing deck height in inches. Stoker equipped engines had a higher firing deck heigth, while hand fired engines were lower.For example, the KW tender associated with the K4s locomotive was a 90P75 (or later a 90P110)...9000 (actually 9700) or 11,000(actually 11,300) gallon capacity, Passenger tender, and the firing deck was 90 inchs above the railhead. Also, as a rule, passenger engines had a higher firing deck than freight locomotives had. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ > PRR forever... > > George Pierson > george.pierson@trnty.edu > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:03:50 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR decals; OR&W Content-Length: 831 George Pierson wrote: > Finally, does anyone know of a color photo of the coaling wharf at > Denholm > on the Middle Division? I've seen plenty of b&w shots but no color. > Not > that it probably matters...by the time color film was widely > available, the > wharf was probably grey on black from years of coal dust, loco > exhaust, etc. > Yup...black it was. There's one in Don Ball's THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD IN THE 40'S AND 50'S. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:05:06 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains Content-Length: 592 Kevin & Maureen wrote: > Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs or articles about the > PRR Ballast > Cleaning Trains? > PENNSY POWER VOL.3 has some shots of their Industiral Brownhoist train. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:07:02 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: DD-2 5800 Content-Length: 576 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > Sandy wrote: > > > > does anyone know what ever happened to DD-2 no..5800? > Again, in PENNSY POWER VOL. 3 it is listed as being scrapped in Sept. of 1962 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:09:14 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/17/97 Content-Length: 23541 Hello all, I want to second some of the comments made by George Pierson, and I also want to comment on the painting problems. According to an old specification sheet (circa 1929?) which I got years ago reproduced by the PRR T&HS, the underframe was either black or DGLC, but any appliances on the side of the boiler (pipes, air pump, handrails, etc.) and any appliances on the smokebox (headlight, generator, etc.) were painted black. Whether the cab roof was painted freight-car color depended on the amount of work that had to be done on it. Light repainting meant it would be painted in a mixture of 50% black and 50% fcc; serious repainting, involving much scraping off of old paint, meant it was to be repainted in Freight-car color. And that was for steel cabs; wood cabs had a different set of rules. The slope sheet was always painted fcc. The tender deck, I think, was treated like the cab. The wheels were black, but there were no specifications for the running gear. They were left unpainted and usually covered with grease and oil while in service. How did that look? Got any photos of Strasburg steam in service? Naturally, the boiler, cab sides, and tender sides and ends were DGLC. The smokebox color, though specified as a mixture of graphite and oil, seemed to vary in color from engine house to engine house and seemed to get darker from decade to decade. Finally, many imperfections can be covered with grimy black. Steam engines got real dirty real fast. I hope these observations help you out. Jim Hunter On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, PRR-Talk wrote: > PRR-Talk Digest - Wednesday, September 17, 1997 > New Railroad Series on History Channel > by Jerry Britton > Forwarded message... > by George Pierson > Forwarded message... > by George Pierson > Forwarded message... > by George Pierson > PRR decals; OR&W > by George Pierson > PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains > by Kevin & Maureen > PRR Into the Future > by Kevin & Maureen > Re: DD-2 5800 > by Stephen Bartlett > Re: PRR decals; OR&W > by Jerry > Re: Painting a steam loco > by Bill Daniels > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: New Railroad Series on History Channel > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 10:15:21 -0400 > > Caught in last week's TV Guide that The History Channel is running a new > 15-installment series on the history of railroading in America. I don't > know if THC uses one master schedule or is localized, but in my area the > show is at 10 p.m. on Monday nights, beginning last night. > > I taped the show and will view it later, but I caught parts during > commercials of Monday Night Football. The parts I saw were excellent and > contained some outstanding video of the PRR. I hope to tape the entire > series. > > In one scene four PRR locos are barrelling towards the camera at speed. > Only got a quick look. One was a GG-1, another a streamlined K-4. Bet > another is a non-streamlined K-4. Didn't get a close enough look at the > fourth. > > Program described how the railroads established standard time zones. To > illustrate the differences in times between cities before standard time, > the PRR schedule was shown. 8-) > > Anyone else see this program? > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Forwarded message... > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:09:06 CST > > > ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- > From: Rob Schoenberg > Wed, 10 Sep 97 11:09:35 -0400 > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Triumph 1 - new book... > > Hi all, > > Over the weekend I just got a new PRR book, Triumph 1 - Altoona to Pitcarin. I've only read the first > quarter of it so far (It's about 400 pages). A very good book so far. He starts off with a > chapter containing a whirlwind history of the new world along with a short study of the east coast's > geography and major waterways to put the railroad's creation in perspective. Unlike most other > railroad histories I've read (like the centennial history) which progressively trace the history of > the entire road, each chapter is the history of a different part of the line, from creation up till today. > There are many b&w photos and maps given to support the text. (In the back there is also a color section) > There is alot of the authors opinions thrown in (many about how if you want to screw anything up, let > the government do it, others about how the PRR compares to the B&O) but they are clearly noted as opinion and not fact and serve to lighten up the > book. > It's a very interesting read overall so far. The photos and maps are great. A must have for any SPF... I paid > list ($65) for mine as a donation the the B&O RR museum in Baltimore but I've seen it advertised for $55 > or so..... > > Now to pick up Morning Sun's Steam Years volume II.... Think I need a bigger bookshelf! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ > > I've read "Triumph 1" and was generally impressed - lots of neat photos, > maps etc. - but also disappointed. The author in my opinion needed a good > editor. For example, political convictions are a fine thing IF they are > supported by evidence. Roberts too often aren't. Moreover, if they need > to be included in such a book, they belong in a separate appendix or > chapter. When a photo caption has two lines on the picture and 15 on how > pathetic Democrats are, an editor is needed. Second, there are a few > gaffe's which surprised me considering the amount of rr knowledge Roberts > must have. In one case, he speculates about a 19th century photo label > "Tyrone branch" (I think), assumes it is the New Portage Horseshoe curve > and wonders how there could have been two tracks there at this time. > Answer: it IS the Tyrone branch. Another case in point: Roberts runs a > photo of post-Johnstown flood damage but doesn't know the location. If > he had consulted back issues of the KEYSTONE, esp. the issue on the > Johnstown flood, he would have discovered this is Buttermilk Falls. Some > of these problems might have been avoided had Roberts worked more closely > with the various well-known students of the PRR, such as the folks whose > work regularly appears in the KEYSTONE. The absence of these folks in his > acknowledgments raises doubts about the over-all reliability of his work. > Anyway, the book is still worth the price but could have been MUCH > better. Maybe the next few volumes will clean up these problems. What do > the rest of you think? > > George Pierson > george.pierson@trnty.edu > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Forwarded message... > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:13:28 CST > > > ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- > From: Jeff Levine > Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:11:45 -0400 > To: Doug Maddox > CC: "'PRR Talk'" > Subject: Re: Book by Don Ball, Jr. > > Doug Maddox wrote: > > > > Just got a book out of the local library, "The Pennsylvania Railroad: 1940s - 1950s". Big coffee table thing with loads of color pictures. I admit that I'm new to PRR books, so how is Don Ball, Jr for accuracy? I haven't read the text yet, just got it l > > > > TIA, > > Doug Maddox > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > Doug: > > As a PRR rail fan and a "real" librarian, Don Ball is one of the best. > His books are very popular at my library and the discriptive detail is > extensive however as a non-technical expert I don't know about > accuracey. Here is a list of some of the books we have and they are all > great. > > Jeff Levine jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us > > > 1 Ball don > Pennsylvania railroad, 1940s-1950s > > 2 Ball don > Railroads > > 3 Ball don > America's railroads : the second generation > > 4 Ball don > America's colorful railroads > > 5 Ball don > Portrait of the rails, from steam to diesel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ > > RE: Don Ball's accuracy, while I am no expert, his comments in my > experience are generally accurate although he may occasionally slip up in > referring to, for example, an engine class with the correct PRR code - but > then, has anyone truly mastered the aarcane language of PRR letter/number > classification? The tender classes alone are enough for a book of their > own. > > PRR forever... > > George Pierson > george.pierson@trnty.edu > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Forwarded message... > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:22:36 CST > > > ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- > From: Jerry Britton > Fri, 12 Sep 97 11:01:56 -0400 > To: "PRR" > Subject: Painting a Steam Loco > > I asked Bruce Smith (offline) a while back about how to go about painting > my Bowser K4 (which should be applicable to all steam locos). > > The question concerned the underframe...which needs to be painted early > on due to accessability. Unlike the boiler, which should be DGLE (aka > Brunswick Green), he said the underframe should be black. > > I have some Floquil "Grimy Black". Is this appropriate, or should I use > "Engine Black", or even another color? > > What about the driver arms and the valve gear...both are brass in the > kit. Do they get black or DGLE? > > Bruce also stated that the handrails (and the stanchions [if that is the > right word] should be black. Anyone know otherwise? > > The inside of the cockpit should be some form of olive green if I recall. > Any recommendations for brand and name of color? > > Last but not least, I'm a Lines Easterner modelling the mid-40s to > mid-50s. What about the tender deck... is it red or DGLE? If red, what > brand and color name? > > Okay, one more...What brand and color name for the gold stripes on the > tender? > > BTW: Checked Staples yesterday for chart tape. The narrowist they carry > (including special order) is 1/8". > > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ > > > RE: painting PRR steam late 40's-early 50's. From looking at many photos > over the years, my own view is that the painting of the tender deck > (including the back of the slope sheet) and the cab roof freightcar red was > specified but optional. There are too many good color shots of PRR steam > all over the system in the 1950s with no red in these areas to dismiss this > as red heavily weathered. There seems to be no pattern - I've seen a color > shot of a T1 tender with the red deck but a K4 of the same year without, > I've modeled all my steam (year:1950) without the red partly because it's > easier but also because on the Middle Division, that seemed to be the most > common, based on my knowledge of the available photos. > > George Pierson > george.pierson@trnty.edu > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR decals; OR&W > From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 11:32:15 CST > > Does anyone know of commercial decals in HO for doing passenger cars in the > 1938 Loewy scheme, the one with the Tuscan Red and darker red around the > windows? Since I'm modeling 1950 on the Middle Div., there might have been > some cars still in the scheme around (I've seen photos as late as 1948). > Any suggestions? > > Also, there is a new book out on the Ohio River & Western, the narrow gauge > line from Bellaire to Zanesville, OH that was owned by the PRR. This is to > be sure a side-light to the St. RR of the World, but quite interesting. > The book is very well done, with excellent research, maps, equipment > drawings, copious photos, etc. - great for modeling as well as history. > It's called "Hidden Treasure: A History of the OR&W" and it's > starting to be listed in the various mail-order ads in the foamer mags. > > Finally, does anyone know of a color photo of the coaling wharf at Denholm > on the Middle Division? I've seen plenty of b&w shots but no color. Not > that it probably matters...by the time color film was widely available, the > wharf was probably grey on black from years of coal dust, loco exhaust, etc. > > PRR forever, > > George Pierson > george.pierson@trnty.edu > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains > From: Kevin & Maureen > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:37:24 -0800 > > Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs or articles about the PRR Ballast > Cleaning Trains? > > Kevin J. Tully > C.E.O. > Foxburg, Mt. Jewet & Corydon Railroad Co. > A Division of The Pennsylvania Railroad Corp. > "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR Into the Future > From: Kevin & Maureen > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:51:02 -0800 > > Anyone interested in helping with the development of a modern day PRR, > email myself or Jeremy at one of the following: > > kkratts@alaska.net > PRRSD45@aol.com > > Kevin J. Tully > Foxburg, Mt. Jewet Railroad Co. > A Division of The Pennsylvania Railroad Corp. > "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: DD-2 5800 > From: Stephen Bartlett > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:44:12 -0400 > > Sandy wrote: > > > > does anyone know what ever happened to DD-2 no..5800? > > > > H.Mummert > > > Sy Reich wrote an article and PRR roster "Rollcall of Pennsy > Electrics", published in Railroad Magazine for October, 1962. At that > time he indicated Engine 5800 was still in service. There would have > been at least a few months' lead time for the article, if not longer. > > In the April, 1964, Trains Magazine, Bert Pennypacker, in his article > "All about America's largest locomotive fleet," stated that DD-2 5800 > had been retired in 1962 (page 46). > > That's all I have found in a quick search; although it does not > indicate the disposition of the locomotive, I hope it will be of help. > > Stephen Bartlett > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: PRR decals; OR&W > From: Jerry > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 19:18:07 -0400 > > >Does anyone know of commercial decals in HO for doing passenger cars in the > >1938 Loewy scheme, the one with the Tuscan Red and darker red around the > >windows? Since I'm modeling 1950 on the Middle Div., there might have been > >some cars still in the scheme around (I've seen photos as late as 1948). > >Any suggestions? > > We had a very long thread on this about two months ago. There are too > many variables to make it feasible to create such a decal. First, most > decal companies only print to 10.5" long. Second, there are two (or more) > car lengths in question (we considered a two piece decal). Third, the > question of getting such a large decal to lay flat. There were other > issues as well. I had considered producing a custom decal myself, but the > cost would have exceeded $15 per car! > > It was decided to do a paint job. Paint the entire car in gold. Mask out > the horiz gold stripes with 1/64" chart tape and repaint in dark tuscan. > Add another mask for the window panel and paint in tuscan. Remove both > masks. Only unresolved issue was the gold stripe around the dark tuscan > panel. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Painting a steam loco > From: Bill Daniels > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:58:41 -0700 > > Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > > > > > My questions have to do with color. I am nearing a half century as an > > SPF, but still cannot get things straight. Some of conflicts may have > > to do with the dates of the paint specifications. > > 1. There are conflicting specifications for painting round locomotive > > plates. DGLE versus black. I model 1949-50. > > Who can tell the difference? I would suspect that the round plated were > painted with DGLE, although I cannot recall seeing a spec on this. (I > have seen a spec on the paint for the Keystones on PRR power...it was > supposed to be Toludine Red, to be obtained only from the Altoona > Shops.) > > > 2. I have seen at least one spec in the Keystone which seems to > > indicate that at least for the cab roof (couldn't figure out the > > English to see if tender cistern top was included) "M1 and later" > > locomotives had DGLE paint. Again I am concerned with 1949-50. > > Cab roofs and cistern decks on "older" power were painted oxide red. I > believe that the G5's were the first power to not have these painted red > (although the later K4s's retained the painting spec of earlier > locomotives) M1's (as well as later versions) were painted entirely in > DGLE. It could also well be that locomotives painted at Juniata got the > red, and locomotives painted at other locations got the single color > treatment. I haven't seen any M's with the oxide red, though. But, I > wouldn't be suprised if I make a sweeping statement, and then learned > that there was one out there! > > > 3. Although I have seen photos around my time frame with some > > cistern tops oxide red, most locos seem to be all DGLE (admittedly > > usually weathered). Since back of coal slope sheet shows as oxide red > > in several photos, is this because the deposit of ash and soot > > completely covered the oxide red on flat surfaces such as cistern top > > and cab roof? > > I think so...as I recall (from Don Ball's color PRR book, as well as > other sources) K's and L's (as well as H's, E's and other older > locomotives) were usually painted with oxide red cab roofs and cistern > decks (there is a photo in Ball's book showing that the inside of a T1's > stack painted oxide red. Wanna bet just how long THAT lasted in > service?). PRR power was notoriously grungy...I wouldn't be a bit > suprised that these locomotives weathered quickly. > > I just looked at Dave Sweetland's PENNSY STEAM YEARS...if you have a > copy look at E6s 1600 on page 31...you can barely make out that the > cistern deck and cab roof are red (but other photos seem to show DGLE > colors here...I guess that you pays your money and you takes your > chances. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > End of PRR-Talk Digest > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:16:55 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: Forwarded message... Content-Length: 2291 George Pierson wrote: > ---- Forwarded message begins here ------ > From: Jerry Britton > Fri, 12 Sep 97 11:01:56 -0400 > To: "PRR" > Subject: Painting a Steam Loco > > > > I have some Floquil "Grimy Black". Is this appropriate, or should I > use > "Engine Black", or even another color? I would go with "Engine Black". > > > What about the driver arms and the valve gear...both are brass in the > kit. Do they get black or DGLE? Again, black. > > > Bruce also stated that the handrails (and the stanchions [if that is > the > right word] should be black. Anyone know otherwise? I always thought they would be DGLE, but I really don't know. > > > The inside of the cockpit should be some form of olive green if I > recall. > Any recommendations for brand and name of color? Often times cab interiors were a "seafoam" green (which I usually refer to as "men's room green"...olive sounds too dark to me. > > > Last but not least, I'm a Lines Easterner modelling the mid-40s to > mid-50s. What about the tender deck... is it red or DGLE? If red, what > > brand and color name? Already answered. > > > Okay, one more...What brand and color name for the gold stripes on the > > tender? Lose the striping...the Pennsy dropped the stripes when the stock market crashed in '29. If you want to do them anyways, the real stripes were done in gold leaf (!). Incidently, before the war (WWII) the lettering on the tender deck was condensed...about 1940, Raymond Lowey talked the P Co. into using futura lettering, which lasted about a year or so...Pennsy's president prefered the Craw Clarendon face, and it was restored, but (1) spread out on the tender side, and (2) with slight differences in the face...the P's became rounded, as did the S's...see a current Champ decal set for the two styles. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:20:22 -0500 Content-Length: 1238 The chapter on work equipment in Pennsy Power III has a small photo. ---------- From: Kevin & Maureen Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 2:37 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs or articles about the PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. Foxburg, Mt. Jewet & Corydon Railroad Co. A Division of The Pennsylvania Railroad Corp. "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:20:22 -0500 Content-Length: 1238 The chapter on work equipment in Pennsy Power III has a small photo. ---------- From: Kevin & Maureen Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 2:37 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains Does anyone know the whereabouts of photographs or articles about the PRR Ballast Cleaning Trains? Kevin J. Tully C.E.O. Foxburg, Mt. Jewet & Corydon Railroad Co. A Division of The Pennsylvania Railroad Corp. "Pennsylvania Railroad Into The Future" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Baltimore Penn Station Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 13:22:33 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1256 I'm modeling Baltimore's Penn (fmr. Union) Station in HO. I've got most of the dimensions I need. Among those are the four platforms that are 30' wide and 600-1000' long providing passenger access to the seven tracks that existed (still exist?) in the 1950's. For modeling purposes, anyone know what type of material these platforms were made of (especially the top surface)? Concrete? Brick? Stone? The facility itself is granite. There are many pictures in The Keystone from a few years ago, but no closeups of the platforms themselves. One shot from the east overlooking Union Junction tower shows a badly deteriorated platform...looks like dirt! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 17 Sep 1997 13:47:37 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: LL P2K E7's Content-Length: 1160 I picked up an A-B-A set of Proto 2000 E7's in PRR Tuscan with 5 stripes at my local train shop yesterday. I was somewhat surprised to see that they were done with small number boards as most of the later E7's had the larger, 45 degree number boards. A quick check through the six volumes of "Pennsy Diesel Years" did result in finding a few Tuscan 5 stripe E7's with small number boards, although most of the photographs of Tuscan 5 stripe E7's showed the larger, 45 degree number boards. Other paint schemes for E7's were: DGLE (Brunswick Green) 5 stripe with small number boards Tuscan single stripe with large 45 degree number boards Tuscan no stripe with large 45 degree number boards Anyone know of others? Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:21:25 -0400 (EDT) From: CrichlowDL@aol.com Subject: Don Ball's titles Content-Length: 460 Does anyone have a list of all of Don Ball's titles? Thanks, Doug Crichlow ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jonathan Goldstein Subject: Amtrak and New Cars Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Length: 1595 (HARRISBURG) -- The state Department of Transportation is buying seven new state-of-the-art trains for use on Amtrak's Philadelphia-to- Harrisburg route. PENN-DOT is receiving an 18-point-7 Million dollar federal transit grant and will use an additional 4-point-6-2 Million dollars in state money. The new trains will come in sets of 2-to-4 cars and can run individually or linked together. They will offer some services not currently available on the route, including food service, computer hook-ups for passengers, and expanded accomodations for travelers with disabilities. The route, known as the ``Keystone Corridor, '' is one of the busiest rail corridors in the nation, carrying 733- thousand passengers a year. _____________________________________________________________________________ Jonathan S. Goldstein jonathan@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~jonathan/home.html Any opinions offered herein shall not be considered a substitute for paid professional advice. _____________________________________________________________________________ Learn to shoot. The life you save may be your own. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 15:22:40 CST Subject: Comments on PRR Classification system Content-Length: 2038 Well, folks, I have to admit that on reflection, the PRR's classification system was quite logical. I guess my real problem is that while loco classes are easy to understand, and the logic behind tender classes makes sense, I have been frustrated by being unable to find one book/article that thoroughly explains the tenders to which the classes were assigned. There was a good one some years ago in the KEYSTONE on some of the tenders but not all. In my case, what I'm basically after is the possible tender classes that might have been used on H9s locos on the Middle Div. c.1950. On the same subject, I have also not yet found one book/article that gives a comprehensive rundown of PRR rolling stock, classes, and dates of service for each class. PRR Power III is a good start but does not pretend to be complete. Once again, as I acquire rolling stock for my basement HO empire, I would like to know if that class was in service c.1950. Photos are good but not enough. And you've sure made me think twice about trying to do the Loewy passenger scheme!! Seriously, the scheme cries out to be done with current laser printing technology. Didn't IHC/Rivirossi used to import some such cars? Can we start a movement for Loewy cars?? RE: the PRR and narrow gauges. In researching a clinic I recently gave, I discovered that the PRR probably connected with more n.g. rr companies than any other US rr - somewhere around 30, and many of them in Pennsylvania. PRR forever! George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:31:34 -0400 From: "Shawn P. Stokes" Subject: [Fwd: Amtrak Load Dispatcher's Center--Philadelphia (fwd)] Content-Length: 1965 This came in on OS list, thought some of you might be interested. Shawn dannyb wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:04:58 -0700 > From: ovarnes@ibm.net > To: Al Turner > Subject: Amtrak Load Dispatcher's Center--Philadelphia > > >From the Society for Industrial Archeology Newsletter, Summer 1997. > p.10. > > Reproduced without permission. > > Amtraks' Historic Load Dispatcher's Center, in service since 1933 at > the > 30th St. Station in Philadelphia, is being offered to a museum or > other > good home. The center oversees electrical operations between New York > and Washington. The main monitoring device is a passive model board, > which with operator input, indicates status of the system with a > series > of colored pilot lights along a schematic system layout. The board > was > manufactured by Kellogg and has hundreds of lights, telephone relays, > and several Leeds & Northrop recording wattmeters. Amtrak plans to > replace it with a computerized system later this year. The equipment > and display boards in the facility represent a historic monitoring and > control system that should be preserved as an example of early > Pennsylvania RR electrical power control. It could be set up as an > interactive display for museum visitors. Information, photos, and a > floor plan can be obtained from Robert stewart, 1230 Copper Hill Road, > West Suffield, CT 06093; (860) 668-2928; e-mail: 73071@compuserve.com. > > Charles Varnes > ovarnes@ibm.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Comments on PRR Classification system Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 06:44:55 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1415 >On the same subject, I have also not yet found one book/article that gives >a comprehensive rundown of PRR rolling stock, classes, and dates of service >for each class. PRR Power III is a good start but does not pretend to be >complete. Once again, as I acquire rolling stock for my basement HO >empire, I would like to know if that class was in service c.1950. Photos >are good but not enough. Books are nice, but in the long run it will be the Internet sources that offer the most. Rob S. is doing a master freight rolling stock roster at his site. I am doing passenger equipment at present. I will then proceed to motive power, of which I had the diesel part done but lost it in a disk crash last spring. Eventually, I'm sure we will have steam, electric, MoW, and Cabeese rosters available. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Comments on PRR Classification system From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 09:16:14 -0400 Content-Length: 1588 . . . >And you've sure made me think twice about trying to do the Loewy passenger >scheme!! Seriously, the scheme cries out to be done with current laser >printing technology. Didn't IHC/Rivirossi used to import some such cars? >Can we start a movement for Loewy cars?? > > >PRR forever! > >George Pierson > - --------- George, AHM/IHC/Rivarossi did produce their cars in the FOM scheme. However, of the cars they make, only the 10-6 sleeper, the 12-5 sleeper, the observation, and the RPO are PRR protottype; and of these only the 12-5 ( M Brook series duplex sleeper) ever appeared in Lowey colors. Perhaps we can get someone like Union Staion products to cut sides for the right cars. I think the list would be: 10-5 sleeper (AMB does this one) 18 rmt sleeper, 4-4-2 sleeper (pre war of course) (ECW does this one) 6 br lounge (they already do this one) 3-1 lounge (they already do this one) 2 br lounge P70K (the overnight rebuilt coach) P70GS (the daytime rebuilt coach) D70 diner Then ship the sides to one of the many custom car side silk screeners! Ask them to leave the car name and/or number off so we can do our own. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Baltimore Post Office Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 10:11:58 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1299 The Baltimore post office used to sit just east of Penn Station in Baltimore. There is a photo of it in the Baltimore article issue of The Keystone. Several tracks go underneath it. I believe the PO has moved farther south to a larger facility. Is the aforementioned facility still standing? Anyone know of any additional photos of it? I have only the view from the east, showing the tracks going underneath. I need a front view and a view from the west (as in from Penn Station) for modeling purposes. Thanks. BTW: Response from yesterdays post is that Penn Station's platforms were brick. I have also found a source for additional photos and CAD drawings of the station in HO scale. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: number plates Content-Length: 665 Hello again! I recall having to research this once in order to paint an L1. I believe that Keystones on the front of steamers were painted a bright, fire-engine red called Tuloidine red, and round number plates on frieght steamers were painted black like other appliances. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:35:33 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: PRR E7A and E8A paint schemes Content-Length: 3026 The following are the paint schemes which I have identified from photographic evidence for the E7A and E8A locomotives. Please beaware this is on going research for an article for the Keystone. Use it for your own purposes, but please respect the fact that this is a work in progress intended for publication at no personal gain as the PRRT&HS does not pay for articles. 1. DGLE five stripe number in Keystone on nose small rear numbers 1 3/4", Pennsylvania spelled out on side and one Keystone centered ob side beneath the name. 2. DGLE five stripe intertwined PRR in Keystone on nose small rear numbers 1 3/4", Pennsylvania spelled out on side and one Keystone centered ob side beneath the name. 3. Tuscan five stripe number in Keystone on nose small rear numbers 1 3/4", Pennsylvania spelled out on side and one Keystone centered ob side beneath the name. 4. Tuscan five stripe intertwined PRR in Keystone on nose small rear numbers 1 3/4", Pennsylvania spelled out on side and one Keystone centered ob side beneath the name. 5. Tuscan five stripe intertwined PRR in Keystone on nose small rear numbers 8", Pennsylvania spelled out on side and one Keystone centered ob side beneath the name. 6. Same as four but practice of painting pinstripes over portal dropped 7. Tuscan single stripe with two Keystones in stripe at either end of stripe from cab door to rear, unit number at both front and rear of each side, Pennsyvania spelled out along the side frame edge. 8. Same as 7 except location Pennsylvania raised up off the frame line 9. Tuscan single stripe, one Keystone to rear of cab door otherwise same as 8 10. Same as 9 but delete "Pennsylvania", i.e. no roadname on loco. 11. Tuscan single stripe, two Keystones located below the stripe, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. 12. Tuscan single stripe one Keystone centered below stripe, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. 13. Tuscan single stripe one Keystone in stripe behind cab door, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. 14. Single stripe no Keystones, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. 15. Tuscan no stripe, two Keystones below midline, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. 16. Tuscan no stripe one Keystone at frame line rear of side, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. 17. Tuscan no stripe one Keystone midline rear of cab door, unit number in calendar style numbers at rear of each side. If anyone can provide photogrphic evidence of other paint schemes, please contact me. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:04:16 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Comments on PRR Classification system Content-Length: 3107 In a message dated 97-09-18 03:16:08 EDT, George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) writes: << On the same subject, I have also not yet found one book/article that gives a comprehensive rundown of PRR rolling stock, classes, and dates of service for each class. PRR Power III is a good start but does not pretend to be complete. Once again, as I acquire rolling stock for my basement HO empire, I would like to know if that class was in service c.1950. Photos are good but not enough. >> George, the book you are seeking hasn't been written. A number of PRRT&HS members are or have attempted to do a comprehensive freight car book and found it a monumental undertaking. Such a book would need to include the differences between the various subclasses and in many cases they are not discernible from photpgraphics. Case in point the H21 family. There are no consistent outward differences among the H21a, H21b, H21c, H21e and H21g. For a list of classes in service at a particular point in time, the informationcan be obtained from the appropriate ORER. For the members of this list interested in the 1950 c. era I am enclosing the list below. Please remember when developing a roster for your layout you need to keep in mind the number of cars of a class which were in service and dedicted service cars. Classes of freight cars Oct. 1948: FLATS F22 F23 F23A F25 F25A F25B F25C F28 F29 F30 F30A F30C F31A F32 F33 F34 F35 F36 F37 FGR FGRA FM FN FNA GONS: G21 G22 G22A G22B G23 G24 G25 G25A G26 G26A G27 G28 G28A G29 G29A G29B G30 GR HRA GS GSX GSA GSD GSG GSH HOPPERS: GLA GLC GLCA GLCB GLD GLE GLF GLG H21 H21A H21B H21E H21G H21D H22 H22A H25 H27 H30 H31 H31A H31B H32 STOCK: K7 K7A K8 REEFERS: R50A R50B R60 BOX: Ara X23 XX23B X24 X25 X25A X25B X25C X25D X26 X26A X26C X28A X29 X29A X29B X30 X31 X31A X31B X31C X31F X32 X32A X32B X32C X33 X33A X35 X36 X37 X37A X37B X38 X38A X38B X40 X40A X40B X41 X41A X41B X41C X42 Classes of freight cars APR. 1952: FLATS F22 F23 F23A F25 F25A F25B F25C F28 F29 F30 F30A F30C F31A F32 F33 F34 F35 F36 F37 FGR FGRA FM FN FNA FD1 FD3 FD3A GONS: G21 G22 G22A G22B G23 G24 G25 G25A G25B G26 G26A G27 G28 G29 G29A G29B G30 G32 G32A G33 G33A G33B G34 G35 GR HRA GS GSX GSG GSH HOPPERS: GLA GLC GLCA GLCB GLD GLE GLF GLG H21 H21A H21B H21E H21G H21D H22 H22A H25 H25A H30 H30A H31 H31A H31B H31C H32 H33 STOCK: K7 K7A K8 REEFERS: R50A R50B R60 BOX: Ara X23 XX23B X24 X25 X25A X26 X26A X26C X28A X29 X29A X29B X29C X29D X30 X31 X31A X31B X31C X31F X32 X32A X32B X32C X33 X33A X35 X36 X37 X37A X37B X38 X38A X38B X40 X40A X40B X40C X41 X41A X41B X41C X42 X43 X43A X43B X43C X44 X45 X46 Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: DISTANCE???? Content-Length: 1997 What was the distance between Harrisburg and Philadelphia when the PRR ran the PRR? It appears that Amtrak doesn't know or thinks the distance is different for each train. The distances in their time table for trains between Har & PHL. (See schedule) [ http://www.amtrak.com/cgi-bin/trakrouter/trip??from=har&to=phl&cx=2 ] On the web time tables Amtrak lists the Distance between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, traveling over the same tracks as follows: Train # Distance in miles between HAR &PHL 640, 650, 652 125 miles 642 113 miles 644, 44 104 miles 646, 648 110 miles 616 118 miles Do the people at Amtrak know the distance, or just make it up for each train. On the New York run they have 67 trains and give 7 different distances all the way from Train #151 traveling a total of only 71 miles to train #89 going 123 miles from NYP to PHL. On the New York to Washington D.C. Run they show 17 different distances on the schedule going all the way from train #145 traveling only 173 miles to train #175 traveling 254 miles from NYP to WAS Is it safe to ride their high speed trains on the corridor, when they can't even put out a time-table and don't even know the length of their the road? ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Altoona Railfest Excursion Details Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 10:08:31 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1376 Just got an e-mail from my contact at the Altoona Railroader's Museum. The following information pertains to the Amtrak excursions... Historically, the coaches used on these trains allowed the seats to be turned so that they always face forward. Those cars have been retired. The coaches on this years train cannot be turned. "They are the style of seating where the seats in each half of the car face the center of the coach. Many of them are of PRR heritage though." Amtrak provides power at one end of the train; Conrail at the other. This year's Conrail power "will probably be an SD40-2 from the helper pool as most of the SD45-2's are out on lease." And, yes, the train does go all the way through the tunnels and turn on the helper loop. Start salivating! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Passenger Car Protos and Models Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 10:19:09 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1045 To follow up on an earlier thread (FoM), I have contacted Union Station Products about producing sides for class PS18. This is a car needed for "Fleet of Modernism" modelers. I'll let you know, but I don't anticipate a problem. Soon to be released from USP is the P85B coach and the POS21a ("View" series) pre-war observation used on the "Liberty Limited" and the "Broadway Limited". Full USP list at http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/usp.html. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Class PS14 Passenger Car? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 10:19:52 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1192 My consist reports list a "14 section" car in the "Liberty Limited" in 1943, 1945, and 1953. (Note that the '43 and '45 would be "pre-war" and the '53 "post-war", unless an early car was present in the later train.) Presumably this would be class PS14. However, there is no reference to a 14 section car in the Pullman Standard Library. Did someone else make the car, or are these three consist reports all in error? If it does exist, are there any models available in HO? If it does exist and there are no models, does anyone have any good profile photos or plans...or sources of same? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:14:56 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Final PRR locomotive roster (long) Content-Length: 9065 Several weeks ago in response to an inquiry, I offered to extract the final PRR locomotive roster from Penn Central Power. Here it is. Please note I have used the original PRR numbers. Most if not all of these units were renumbered beginning in 1966 in anticipation of the merger. The new numbers can be found in PRR Diesel Years Vol 2. FINAL PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE ROSTER 11:59:59 PM January 31, 1968 All units were re-numbered beginning 1966 See Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 2 for re-numbering Original Number 5840B E7B 5842B E7B 5844B E7B 5846B E7B 5848B E7B 5850B E7B 5852B E7B 5854B E7B 5856B E7B 5858B E7B 5860B E7B 5862B E7B 5900B E7B 7175B - 7104B GP9B 7230B - 7239B GP9B 9545B F3B 9547B F7B 9641B F7B 9645B F7B 9652B F7B 9660B F7B 9668B F7B 9672B F7B 9782B F7B 9792B F7B 9794B F7B 9796B F7B 9808B F7B 9810B F7B 9812B F7B 9814B F7B 9834B F7B 9838B F7B 9840B F7B 9842B F7B 9844B F7B 9846B F7B 9848B F7B 9850B F7B 9872B F7B 9874B F7B 9876B F7B 2200 - 2251 GP30 2252 - 2351 GP35 2353 - 2370 GP35 2400 - 2414 RS27 2415 C424 2416 - 2446 C425 2500 - 2548 U25B 2649 - 2658 U25B 3912 - 3913 B1 3936 - 3937 DD1 4400 - 4457 E44 4458 - 4465 E44A 4800 - 4803 GG1 4806 GG1 4808 - 4811 GG1 4815 - 4816 GG1 4818 - GG1 4821 - 4822 GG1 4824 - 4828 GG1 4832 GG1 4835 - 4842 GG1 4844 - 4845 GG1 4848 - 4870 GG1 4872 - 4887 GG1 4889 - 4938 GG1 5550 - 5551 DS 4-4-1000 5553 - 5557 DS 4-4-1000 5559 - 5561 DS 4-4-1000 5563 - 5571 DS 4-4-1000 5573 - 5576 DS 4-4-1000 5578 DS 4-4-1000 5580 - 5581 DS 4-4-1000 5585 - 5593 DS 4-4-1000 5595 - 5597 DS 4-4-750 5599 - 5600 DS 4-4-750 5602 DS 4-4-750 5604 DS 4-4-750 5606 DS 4-4-750 5608 DS 4-4-750 5610 - 5617 DS 4-4-750 5619 - 5627 RS1 5629 - 5640 RS1 5641 - 5642 S2 5644 - 5646 S2 5648 - 5650 S2 5652 - 5660 S2 5661 - 5663 S1 5665 - 5670 S1 5685 B1 5687 B1 5690 B1 5693 B1 5700 - 5716 E8 5760 E8 5769 E8 5788 - 5799 E8 5801 - 5810 E8 5835 - 5839 E8 5840 - 5846 E7 5848 - 5854 E7 5856 - 5857 E7 5859 - 5861 E7 5863 - 5875 E7 5877 - 5883 E7 5884 - 5896 E8 5898 - 5899 E8 5900 - 5902 E7 5903 - 5905 E8 5906 RS1 5910 - 5911 SW1 5912 NW2 5921 - 5925 NW2 5926 - 5928 S2 5930 - 5931 S2 5939 L6 5940 L6A 5944 - 5953 SW1 5954 - 5956 S1 5960 - 5962 DS 4-4-660 5964 DS 4-4-660 5966 DS 4-4-660 5968 - 5873 DS 4-4-1000 5975 - 5979 DS 4-4-1000 5980 - 5981 H12-44 5984 - 5986 H12-44 5987 - 5999 SW1 5997 E8 6000 - 6039 SD35 6040 - 6104 SD40 6105 - 6234 SD45 6300 - 6314 C628 6315 - 6329 C630 6500 - 6519 U25C 6520 - 6534 U28C 6535 - 6539 U30C 7000 - 7070 GP9 7072 - 7128 GP9 7130 - 7224 GP9 7226 - 7269 GP9 7600 - 7624 SD9 8100 - 8104 S12 8105 - 8110 RS12 8111 - 8112 AS616 8424 - 8429 T6 8430 - 8434 S4 8435 - 8845 RS-3 8446 - 8451 RSD5 8452 - 8460 RS-3 8471 - 8884 RS-3 8485 - 8486 RS1 8487 - 8489 S4 8498 - 8497 S4 8500 - 8512 GP7 8513 - 8587 SW9 8588 - 8589 SD7 8590 - 8605 RS-3 8606 - 8610 RSD7 8611 - 8616 RSD15 8617 - 8639 RS11 8645 - 8647 RS11 8649 - 8654 RS11 8655 - 8679 RSD12 8699 - 8707 H24-66 8732 - 8734 S12 8736 - 8737 S12 8739 - 8740 S12 8742 - 8743 S12 8745 S12 8747 - 8750 S12 8753 - 8754 S12 8756 - 8758 S12 8760 - 8771 S12 8773 S12 8775 S12 8776 RS12 8778 - 8780 S12 8784 - 8787 S12 8789 S12 8791 - 8793 S12 8794 S12 8797 - 8806 GP7 8815 H16-44 8818 - 8822 RS-3 8824 - 8828 RS-3 8830 - 8833 RS-3 8835 - 8840 RS-3 8842 - 8844 RS-3 8846 - 8847 RS-3 8849 - 8853 RS-3 8855 RS-3 8857 - 8858 RS1 8868 SW7 8869 - 8870 SW9 8871 - 8871 SW7 8873 - 8877 S3 8879 S3 8882 - 8885 S3 8886 - 8896 S4 8898 - 8901 S4 8903 - 8905 RS-3 8909 - 8910 RS-3 8912 RS-3 8915 RS-3 8966 - 8967 AS616 8973 - 8974 AS616 8975 RS12 8976 - 8980 S12 8982 - 8983 S12 8985 S12 8988 S12 8992 S12 8996 DS 4-4-750 8998 DS 4-4-750 9001 DS 4-4-660 9003 - 9005 DS 4-4-660 9008 DS 4-4-660 9013 DS 4-4-660 9016 DS 4-4-660 9020 - 9025 DS 4-4-660 9027 - 9029 DS 4-4-660 9031 - 9032 DS 4-4-660 9036 DS 4-4-660 9043 DS 4-4-660 9048 - 9049 DS 4-4-660 9051 DS 4-4-1000 9053 - 9054 DS 4-4-1000 9056 - 9058 DS 4-4-1000 9060 DS 4-4-1000 9062 - 9066 DS 4-4-1000 9068 - 9070 DS 4-4-1000 9073 - 9077 DS 4-4-1000 9079 DS 4-4-1000 9080 H12-44 9084 H12-44 9086 H12-44 9089 H12-44 9091 - 9093 H12-44 9096 - 9097 H12-44 9101 - 9102 S1 9104 SW1 9105 - 9109 S2 9110 - 9111 DS 4-4-660 9115 - 9116 DS 4-4-660 9118 DS 4-4-660 9120 - 9121 DS 4-4-660 9126 DS 4-4-1000 9128 DS 4-4-1000 9130 DS 4-4-1000 9132 DS 4-4-1000 9135 DS 4-4-1000 9137 - 9143 SW1 9145 - 9146 SW1 9148 - 9154 SW1 9155 - 9176 NW2 9178 - 9183 DS 4-4-1000 9184 - 9185 H12-44 9189 - 9190 H12-44 9193 H12-44 9195 - 9197 H12-44 9200 - 9203 SW1 9204 S2 9205 - 9209 SW1 9210 - 9213 DS 4-4-660 9215 - 9216 DS 4-4-660 9220 - 9221 DS 4-4-660 9223 DS 4-4-660 9226 DS 4-4-660 9232 - 9236 DS 4-4-660 9237 - 9240 S1 9242 - 9246 S1 9247 - 9250 NW2 9251 DS 4-4-1000 9255 - 9261 DS 4-4-1000 9263 DS 4-4-1000 9266 - 9273 DS 4-4-1000 9276 DS 4-4-1000 9278 - 9284 S2 9286 - 9287 S2 9288 - 9290 H12-44 9292 - 9294 H12-44 9299 H12-44 9353 GE 44T 9358 - 9363 SW7 9369 - 9372 SW7 9376 - 9380 SW7 9386 - 9388 SW7 9396 - 9420 SW1 9422 - 9428 SW1 9429 - 9434 DS 4-4-1000 9530 F3A 9541 F3A 9550 F3A 9561 F3A 9640 F7A 9643 - 9644 F7A 9646 F7A 9654 F7A 9659 - 9662 F7A 9666 - 9668 F7A 9670 F7A 9673 F7A 9677 F3A 9683 F3A 9685 - 9686 F3A 9697 F7A 9768 F7A 9771 - 9772 F7A 9774 - 9775 F7A 9777 - 9778 F7A 9781 - 9782 F7A 9785 F7A 9788 F7A 9791 - 9792 F7A 9794 F7A 9797 F7A 9800 - 9801 F7A 9803 F7A 9805 F7A 9809 F7A 9811 F7A 9814 F7A 9817 F7A 9820 F7A 9823 - 9824 F7A 9827 F7A 9830 - 9831 F7A 9832 - 9871 FP7 9874 F7A 9878 - 9879 F7A Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:29:02 CST Subject: RE: Loewy scheme and freight car classes Content-Length: 1225 Thanks for all the feedback and the data you provided on freight cars. Why do I always forget about the ORER? Part of my problem is that I'm as much a narrow gauger as an SPF and the ORER doesn't cover that many of those lines so I don't factor it in. RE the Loewy cars, I for one would be very interested in getting car sides done. I've been assuming that there must be something like laser printing being done on car sides when I see the incredible fine printing on the newer box cars. If so, that would seem to be the way to go for having cars sides done - the stripes could be close to prototypical, the colors true, etc. How about it guys? Send in your vote today. PRR forever! George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: New Book on Pennsy; Pics of repainted, relettered N5e cabn now on Content-Length: 2564 Hey folks, Just got back from spending some of my birthday money at Home Hobbies in Springfield. The first $30 is going to my PRRT&HS renewal that will be accompanied with a note asking them to either turn off their website or get a web master willing to tend the critter. The next $20 bought my first new Walthers catlogue in four years. Also at Home Hobbies I picked up the Sept. '97 Mainline Modeler and found the following information on their Scuttlebutt page: "Milepost Publishing has introduced their new book Black Gold -- Black Diamonds, The Pennsylvania Railroad & Dieselization, Volume 1. This book has over 200 photos, rosters tables and other information that will make it the ultimate work Pennsylvania motive power. Never has so much infromation been made available. This 176-page hardcover book will be available in October for $45." Something to check out at the winter shows. While chewing the fat with Nick, Penn Central/Conrail webmaster Jim Hebner stopped by. Jim said the N5e cabin in Utica, N.Y., was reapinted and relettered this summer in Pennsylvania colors. He just posted a recent color shot of the N5e in Utica, N.Y. to his PC website. He said he took the shot personally this summer and found the cabin to be in reasonably good shape. Jim said its in what appears to be a good representation of fcc and relettered with vinyl letters. Forgot to ask him the scheme but he said he found appearing very accurate. He said that he took full measurment of the cabin. He said that while making his measurements the notices that the grease pencil lines from the relettering were still visible meaning the work was very recent. Check Jim's shots out at Libz/clark.cc.oh.us/CR/crcab.Html or Libz/clark.cc.oh.us/PC/PCcab.Html. He said that he will be posting a shot of a N5c he found in Cambridge, Ohio, that's been repainted and restored to a Pennsylvania scheme and has had its trainphone aerial reinstalled. He said that he plans to post a shot of this cabin on his page this weekend along with a snap ofo ne of the four N5a cabins that's painted Penn Central green but lettered for Conrail. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:38:53 -0400 (EDT) From: CrichlowDL@aol.com Subject: Don Ball's titles Content-Length: 460 Does anyone have a list of all of Don Ball's titles? Thanks, Doug Crichlow ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:34:14 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Number plate colors Content-Length: 862 Hello all... Seeing all this talk about number plates has me wondering....I has seen color pictures of PRR freight steam engines where the number plate was a medium blue for sure...there is one on the cover of a old Trains magazine showing it coming head on...and you can see it well... also some of the past PRR (non PRR produced)calenders have engines with the same blue......can anyone expand on this.... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Must Have for SPF's Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 04:05:01 -0400 Content-Length: 632 Must Have for SPF's Get it now! http://www.rrhistorical.com/rrpro/ads/prr_004.jpg Old color advertisement showing artists rendering of S2 turbine on turntable in front of roundhouse stalls Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:00:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Dugas Subject: Brass PRR Locos on E-Bay Content-Length: 744 Hi All, For those of the HO persuasion E-Bay has 4 PRR Brass Locos by various importers/manufacturers for auction currently: A T1, N1, J1 and Q2. Also an old Penn-Line I1. I can't get my browser working today but if you can't find E-Bay let me know and I'll try to get the URL. Or maybe someone will have it handy and can post it. Thanks, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:45:29 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: corrected URL for repainted N5e Content-Length: 899 I should know better than to trust some one's memory, even if they're giving you their own URL. The one Jim gave me for his shhot of the repainted N5e ain't even close although I mistook a 2 for a "Z." try: http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/pc/PCN5.html+ did a little name searching and found it. JIm took the shot Aug. 31. The N5e has been relettered in the pre-1948 scheme but the paint, at least as the shot apeared on my screen is way, way too caboose red. Sorry for being a bit hasty last night. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Paints used at PA Museum Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 22:55:00 -0400 Content-Length: 902 Following the many posts about colors on cars, locomotives and such on the PRR, does anyone know anything in light of the following questions? Does anyone know what paint colors that the Railroad Museum of PA uses on their collection of PRR steam locomotives? i.e. what is there interpretation of DLGE? What do they paint the handrails, grabs and other details? How is a paint color determined by the museum for a piece of rolling stock? Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:42:29 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: re: corrected URL for repainted N5e Content-Length: 933 To Don, Harry and others trying to access the shot of the repainted N5e, I got through to Jim Hebner's cabin car page Saturday P.M. and saw the shot of the N5e using the second URL I posted. I can't access it right now (1:55 p.m. EDT, Sun., 9/21/97) and I used various permutations of the URL. Jim uses a server at the libarary of Clark State Community College in Springfield, Ohio, which is in the process of beginning the new school year. I've gotten through using the URL I posted. Something else must be causing the access problem Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:39:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: The Great Train Stations Content-Length: 448 Don't forget at 10 Eastern, Sunday, Sept 21 on the Discovery Channel ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:06:08 -0400 From: Skram Subject: PRR divisions Content-Length: 848 As a new member of the list and attempting to expanded my knowledge of the PRR can someone please tell me the different divisions that made up the Standard Railroad of the World. For example where did the middle begin and end? What were the other divisions and where did they start and end? Also what was the standard route from Enola to the Horseshoe Curve? Any help will be greatly appreciated in my quest to be a SPF! Mark AKA. skram@netreach.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:52:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Webber Subject: PRR Loco Paint Content-Length: 1116 Does anyone know if the publication: The Pennsylvannia Research And Information Association Special Publication No. 1. The Painting Of PRR Locomotives and Tenders (1072) is accurate? It seems to address many of the questions put out lately. The paint information is as of 1929. Although it does touch on later dates: "For example: Locomotive Maintenancve Instructions No L-54, February 23, 1938 specifies that during the monthly cleaning at boilerwash period, the cab roof above rain gutters must be given one coat of Freight Car Paint if necessary in order to turn the engine out in first class condition. There is no mention of mixing black paint with the red and no mention of wood cabs and steel cabs" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:20:57 -0400 From: Zeolla Subject: Re: Brass PRR Locos on E-Bay Content-Length: 609 Here are helpful bookmarks for Ebays RR Models: Ending Today http://cayman.ebay2.com/aw/listings/endtoday/category131/index.html RR General: Ending Today http://cayman.ebay2.com/aw/listings/endtoday/category130/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: The Great Train Stations Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 06:50:49 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1129 >Don't forget at 10 Eastern, Sunday, Sept 21 on the Discovery Channel Thanks for the tip. Guess this was a once-and-done deal since the show is "Discovery Sunday" and next week is on submarines. This was a decent show...lots of PRR. Penn Station, NY; Union Station, DC; Union Station, St. Louis; Union Station, LA; Reading Terminal, Philly; 30th Street Station, Philly. REMEMBER: Tonight at 10 on the History Channel is the second (of fifteen) episodes on "Americas Railroads". Tonight has to do with train robberies. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR-TALKER RAILFEST RESERVATION FORM Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 08:36:34 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1285 Even if you have already e-mailed me about attending RailFest, please fill out and return this form to "jerry@dsop.com". This information will be used to create name tags, reserve space on the 1:30 train, and make dinner reservations on your behalf. DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS ADDRESS OR TO THE LIST!!!! Leave the subject as-is (or with the usual "Re:" prefix). If you need to send an update later, append the subject line with "REVISED". FULL NAMES OF ALL PERSONS IN YOUR PARTY (with e-mail addresses in parens): NUMBER OF PERSONS RIDING ON 1:30 EXCURSION (you must secure your own tickets): NUMBER OF PERSONS ATTENDING DINNER (Hoss's at 6 p.m.): Thank you. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:50:05 -0400 (EDT) From: I95BERNIEW@aol.com Subject: Re: The Great Train Stations Content-Length: 638 << Thanks for the tip. Guess this was a once-and-done deal since the show is "Discovery Sunday" and next week is on submarines. >> For those who missed the show, it's scheduled to be repeated at 5 p.m. Eastern on September 28. Bernie Wagenblast ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:55:23 -0400 From: Jim Hebner Subject: Caboose (cabin) pages Content-Length: 1018 The URLs for my caboose pages are as follows. http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/pc/pccab.html The PC page features about 120 PC cabooses - and for the PRR fan - cabins. http://lib2.clark.cc.oh.us/cr/crcab.html The CR page soon will have 210 photos, with many PRR shown as they are today - restored or at least in sombodys idea of PRR paint. You decide. Both pages have 1 inch thumbnail pics that when clicked bring up a 7inch photo. Both sites are sorted by class to keep download time down. The server is lightly used and on a T1 line. Contributions welcome, as are comments Jim Hebner hebnerj@clark.cc.oh.us ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Number plate colors Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:14:25 -0400 Content-Length: 2139 PRR number plates with a medium blue background? Possible, but very unlikely. Please consider two factors: --1. The stuff that falls back onto the locomotive is corrosive, causing exposed metal to pit and rust, and painted surfaces to change color before failing (falling away). that's why the craft at the time was to use a special paint around the really hot areas--an oil and graphite mix that resisted this effect better than regular paint. Next time you go to Strasburg, touch the Pennsy steam locomotives on display, and compare the regular paint, be it black or dark green, hard to tell in that place, to the oil and graphite paint on the smokebox. You will feel a difference in surface texture. The number plate, being a bronze casting with recessed area painted or patina-ed black, would show signs of fading within a few months of heavy use. --B. Color film, until the last couple of decades, or, unless it was shot on very slow (ASA of 12, or something like that) early Kodachrome, was not very stable, casuding color shifts that make such reference material interesting, but not definitive. When I examined Pennsy steam in the early 1950's, the number plates on freight engines, were black. Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others. > --------- > Hello all... > Seeing all this talk about number plates has me wondering....I has > seen > color pictures of PRR freight steam engines where the number plate > was > a medium blue for sure...there is one on the cover of a old Trains > magazine showing it coming head on...and you can see it well... > also some of the past PRR (non PRR produced)calenders have engines > with the same blue......can anyone expand on this.... > H.Mummert > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PRR divisions Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 9:26:39 EDT Content-Length: 1407 > As a new member of the list and attempting to expanded my knowledge of > the PRR can someone please tell me the different divisions that made up > the Standard Railroad of the World. For example where did the middle > begin and end? What were the other divisions and where did they start > and end? Also what was the standard route from Enola to the Horseshoe > Curve? Any help will be greatly appreciated in my quest to be a SPF! Mark, entire treatises could be written about this. It varied from age to age, depending on corporate whim. "Traditionally", i.e., for a reasonably long time, the Eastern Region or Philadelphia Division or whatever ended at BANKS, usually inclusive. The Middle Division began there and ran to SLOPE, inclusive. Then the Pittsburgh Division took over to Penn Station, Pgh., where connection was made with the former PCC&StL and PFtW&C. At Pgh., the milepost was 400-some and, at the station, suddenly changed to 0 to reflect the previous roads' numbering. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:07:10 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: PRR freight car colors. Content-Length: 890 Locomotive and passenger car color schemes are always hot topics on PRR-talk, but not much is said about freight cars. I recently purchased a six-pack of Accurail 55-ton hoppers (PRR class GLD). The trucks and wheels are black, and the rest is oxide (except the weights, which are unpainted, even though they are to be mounted on the bottom of the slanted sides, and are visible!). Should the trucks & other undercarriage items be painted differently? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:30:39 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: Number plate colors Content-Length: 1625 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > PRR number plates with a medium blue background? Possible, but very > unlikely. Please consider two factors: > --1. The stuff that falls back onto the locomotive is corrosive, > > --B. Color film, until the last couple of decades Andy, you've forgotton a third problem...reflection of a blue sky onto a shiny black (DGLE) item, be it a number plate, locomotive body or other item. One of Don Wood's color photos in I REMEMBER PENNSY shows a PRR Alco FA with what appears to be a dark blue body...but in reality is DGLE with the reflection of the bright blue sky making it appear to be blue. Bill Daniels, another SPF > but not definitive. When I examined Pennsy steam in the early 1950's, > the > number plates on freight engines, were black. > > Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Decoders in P2K E7 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:08:44 -0500 Content-Length: 958 Since many of us are buying, painting, etc., the P2K E7, if you are planning on a DCC decoder installation, I pass on the following quote from Tony's Train Exchange (Essex Junction, Vt.) Bulletin April 97. "Proto "2000" Short Circuits. We have experienced three separate occasions where E7 and/or SD-7/9 locomotives have motor leads shorted to rail pickups, resulting in blown decoders. If you are getting these locomotives, remove the dummy shorting plug and check to see that there is no connection between themotor leads and track pickup before installing your decoder" ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Class PS14 Passenger Car? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:33:58 -0500 Content-Length: 2382 The 14 section car was a Betterment rebuild of an old Pullman. There was one which ran for many years in the "General" as well, if I believe my consist reports sources. I have a brass version I picked up at a very good price on the used market (a consignment at Chicagoland Hobbies, to be exact). I believe it is a "P Company product (once again, I am at the office, so can't check for sure). I have seen one listed every now and then at the usual major brass dealers. My version was even painted tuscan , but not lettered or striped. I have been vacillating on whether to do the postwar stripe and lettering or really take a chance and try to finish it in a Loewy scheme. ---------- From: Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 9:19 AM To: PRR Subject: Class PS14 Passenger Car? My consist reports list a "14 section" car in the "Liberty Limited" in 1943, 1945, and 1953. (Note that the '43 and '45 would be "pre-war" and the '53 "post-war", unless an early car was present in the later train.) Presumably this would be class PS14. However, there is no reference to a 14 section car in the Pullman Standard Library. Did someone else make the car, or are these three consist reports all in error? If it does exist, are there any models available in HO? If it does exist and there are no models, does anyone have any good profile photos or plans...or sources of same? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Class PS14 Passenger Car? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 12:23:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1117 On 9/22/97 11:33 AM, Bob Zoeller (bob@amsignal.com) wrote: >The 14 section car was a Betterment rebuild of an old Pullman. There was >one which ran for many years in the "General" as well, if I believe my >consist reports sources. Just this morning I provided an update to Andy Miller on this topic. Found out that the 14 section car was indeed a heavyweight...still in use on the 1953 Liberty Limited. This car was placed just behind the coaches and just ahead of the diner and was used by "deadheading" crews. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:59:30 -0400 From: Skram Subject: Re: PRR freight car colors. Content-Length: 1533 Jerry, I remember reading somewhere that freight trucks started life black but after there first trip to the shops they where repainted with the car sides making them freight car color MarkJerry Shickler wrote: > Locomotive and passenger car color schemes are always hot topics on > PRR-talk, but not much is said about freight cars. I recently > purchased > a six-pack of Accurail 55-ton hoppers (PRR class GLD). The trucks and > wheels are black, and the rest is oxide (except the weights, which are > > unpainted, even though they are to be mounted on the bottom of the > slanted sides, and are visible!). Should the trucks & other > undercarriage items be painted differently? > -- > Jerry Shickler > Erie, PA > geshick@velocity.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:17:38 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR Loco Paint Content-Length: 733 The Pennsylvannia Research And Information Association was the original name of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. The publication in question is the premier souce of information on painting steam locomotives. Unfortunately, it is long out of print. If anyone has a copy I am willing to pay for a photocopy. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR freight car colors. Content-Length: 2121 Here goes. To try an simplify this some what, I am going to ignore the 19th century. Fregiht car painting c. 1900 - 1952 All interchange cars were painted freight car color. Freight car color was a natural pigmented painted. The pigment specified was iron sesquioxide. As a natural pigment, the actual color varried from one locality to another. Because of the high iron content in the pigment, it tended to be highly photo-reactive and quickly changed color upon exposure to Mother Nature. The true color was very orangish compared to most other roads. the closest match in model paint is Accufelx and Modelflex Light Tuscan. To be a true match you need to add more orange. Underframes were painted black as were new trucks. Asphaltum like substance was applied at any point where wood contacted medal. This was done in an attempt to delay rusting of stringers and crossmembers of the underframe in areas where water was easily trapped or the wood would have a high mositure content. When repainted trucks were freight car color ( note regulatons prohibit painting wheels). Asphaltum was applied to the roof and then painted freight car color. 1952 Fregiht car color was changed with the development and use of synthetic pigments. The Freight Car Color became much darker and browner. All cars were still painted freight car color with black underframes, asphaltum at steel-wood junctures, asphaltum on roof with freight car color overspray except galvanized roofs. On galvanized roofs the asphaltum was not painted over. c. 1954 with the adoption of the Shadow Keystone paint scheme, covered hoppers were painted a light gray 1957 open top hoppers painted entirely black. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Da72jmk@aol.com Subject: Re: Comments on PRR Classification system Content-Length: 1206 In a message dated 97-09-19 06:23:06 EDT, you write: << On the same subject, I have also not yet found one book/article that gives a comprehensive rundown of PRR rolling stock, classes, and dates of service for each class. PRR Power III is a good start but does not pretend to be complete. Once again, as I acquire rolling stock for my basement HO empire, I would like to know if that class was in service c.1950. Photos are good but not enough. >> A copy of the ORER (Official Railway Equipment Register) will show you which classes of cars were in use at a particular time. In addition to listing car numbers and dimensions, it lists the railroad class. Of course, it's in order by car number, so you have to look through the listing to find out if a particular class appears, but it's a start. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:27:19 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: Number plate colors Content-Length: 2826 Aloha, Also remember the angle of the photographer to the engine and the sky a glossy surface would reflect the sky color like a mirror would, Eric Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > PRR number plates with a medium blue background? Possible, but very > unlikely. Please consider two factors: > --1. The stuff that falls back onto the locomotive is corrosive, > causing exposed metal to pit and rust, and painted surfaces to change > color before failing (falling away). that's why the craft at the time > > was to use a special paint around the really hot areas--an oil and > graphite mix that resisted this effect better than regular paint. > Next > time you go to Strasburg, touch the Pennsy steam locomotives on > display, > and compare the regular paint, be it black or dark green, hard to tell > > in that place, to the oil and graphite paint on the smokebox. You > will > feel a difference in surface texture. The number plate, being a > bronze > casting with recessed area painted or patina-ed black, would show > signs > of fading within a few months of heavy use. > --B. Color film, until the last couple of decades, or, unless it was > shot on very > slow (ASA of 12, or something like that) early Kodachrome, was not > very > stable, casuding color shifts that make such reference material > interesting, > but not definitive. When I examined Pennsy steam in the early 1950's, > the > number plates on freight engines, were black. > > Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others. > > --------- > > Hello all... > > Seeing all this talk about number plates has me wondering....I > has > > seen > > color pictures of PRR freight steam engines where the number > plate > > was > > a medium blue for sure...there is one on the cover of a old > Trains > > magazine showing it coming head on...and you can see it well... > > also some of the past PRR (non PRR produced)calenders have > engines > > with the same blue......can anyone expand on this.... > > H.Mummert > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 14:58:50 CST Subject: Re: PRR E7A and E8A paint schemes Content-Length: 860 I seem recall a photo in PRR Power II of an A-B-A set of E's in the early DGLC - five stripe scheme in which the Keystone on the side was only on the B unit. I've assumed that at this early date the PRR was treating the A-B- A set as one unit (probably same numbers) and therefore it only needed one Keystone on the side. PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Railroad Museum of PA Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:20:08 -0400 Content-Length: 902 Following the many posts about colors on cars, locomotives and such on the PRR, does anyone know anything in light of the following questions? Does anyone know what paint colors that the Railroad Museum of PA uses on their collection of PRR steam locomotives? i.e. what is there interpretation of DLGE? What do they paint the handrails, grabs and other details? How is a paint color determined by the museum for a piece of rolling stock? Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:11:03 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: PRR Loco Paint Content-Length: 940 >The Pennsylvannia Research And Information Association was the original name >of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. The >publication in question is the premier souce of information on painting steam >locomotives. Unfortunately, it is long out of print. > >If anyone has a copy I am willing to pay for a photocopy. > >Rich Orr > I have a copy of the booklet "The Painting of PRR Locomotives and Tenders." It is only eight pages long. I would be happy to send you a copy Rich. Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:13:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Webber Subject: Blackhawk Content-Length: 548 Does anyone know if the slides that Blackhawk distributed are still available under a different label? They had some decent sets of early PRR Diesels.... Thanks,Bob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR E7A and E8A paint schemes Content-Length: 1929 In a message dated 97-09-22 20:28:07 EDT, you write: << I seem recall a photo in PRR Power II of an A-B-A set of E's in the early DGLC - five stripe scheme in which the Keystone on the side was only on the B unit. I've assumed that at this early date the PRR was treating the A-B- A set as one unit (probably same numbers) and therefore it only needed one Keystone on the side. >> DGLE on E units was the earliest scheme with Tuscan becoming standard for dedicated passenger power in the early 1950s (1952, I think, I'm not sure) Cab unit purchases resulted in paired A&B with the same number but with the B unit number an even number followed by a "B." An ABA E7 lashup might be numbered 5840-5840B-5841. The numbering was done this way to get around union contract language requiring staffing of every locomotive. A AB lashup with the same number was considered one locomtive for staffing purposes. The PRR purchased and operated cab units in a building block fashion to equal the horsepower of obsolesent stam units. The E7, PRR class EP20 E(MD)P(assenger)20(x100), at 2,000 hp each were purchased in sets of three as a 6,000-hp passenger locomotives, E8s, class EP22, at 2,250 hp were purchased as A units only representing a 4,500 hp. locomotive.. The first purchse of F3s, (phase I styling) EF15, at 1,500 hp each was made in ABBA sets reprsenting a 6,000 hp road locomotive. The second purchase of F3s, (Phase III styling) was made in ABA sets reprsenting a 4,500 hp pusher locomotive. Tom V. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:21:41 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Distance Content-Length: 1085 The recent post reporting Amtrak's wildly varying Web timetable distances for Harrisburg-Philly leads to much weightier questions, striking to the heart of Standard Railway lore (altho perhaps not so interesting to Lines West folk). My simple question: What is the correct distance New York to Washington? I can suggest the following choices (miles of course): 225 (Amtrak timetable, northward and eastward) 225.1 225.5 225.6 226 (Amtrak timetable, westward and southward, believe it or not) The three numbers in between can be justified from various sources closer to the Original Owner. Votes? Opinions? Other choices? This is not as simple as it seems! John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR freight car color. Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 23:54:37 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 4687 Rich, Great description but are you sure about the black underframes? I always thought they were painted freigh car color. In the PRR Compendium there are a few lettering diagrams (circa 1954) that have the painting schedule. It calls for freight car color. Can't say for sure what they used before 1954. Also, the painting schedule is crossed off and there is a reference to "Instructions for painting freight equiptment cars issued Altoona 12/1/55. Does anyone have a copy of this? Since it might interest some list members, here's what the schedule says.... ------------ Painting Schedule (from an X43a lettering diagram dated 2-1-54) ------------ Exterior: Paint the bare dry metal, except for new galv. roof with synthetic freight car primer. Spray paint the sides and ends with two coats, the roof (except new galv. roof) and underframe with one coat synthetic freight car enamel. New galv. roofs must be spray painted with two coats of asphaltum compound (car cement) Stencil the car with synthetic stencil enamel. (white) Stencil the keystone shadow with alkali-resting stencil paste paint. (black) Interior: Paint the bare dry metal except for new galv. roof with synthetic freight car primer (on new cars only) Spray metal sides, ends, doors, and roof except for new galv. roof with one coat of synthetic freight car enamel (on new cars only) Stencil metal surfaces with synthetic stenciling enamel (white) Stencil wood lining with alkali-resisting stencil paste paint (black) Trucks: Paint with one coat of hard-drying enames (on new cars only) (black) Underframe: Paint top surface of all underframs details in contact with wood with one coat of asphaltom compound (car cement), spray or brush paint interior surfaces of side sills, side posts, side sheets, and sills and end sheets with asphaltum compound (car cement) for a distance approximately 12" upwards from top horizontal surface of side sill on new cars and cars undergoing extensive repairs. ---------- I should have this info up on my freight cars page soon also... Rob Schoenberg robs@protocol.zycad.com Rich's original message follows....... Here goes. To try an simplify this some what, I am going to ignore the 19th century. Fregiht car painting c. 1900 - 1952 All interchange cars were painted freight car color. Freight car color was a natural pigmented painted. The pigment specified was iron sesquioxide. As a natural pigment, the actual color varried from one locality to another. Because of the high iron content in the pigment, it tended to be highly photo-reactive and quickly changed color upon exposure to Mother Nature. The true color was very orangish compared to most other roads. the closest match in model paint is Accufelx and Modelflex Light Tuscan. To be a true match you need to add more orange. Underframes were painted black as were new trucks. Asphaltum like substance was applied at any point where wood contacted medal. This was done in an attempt to delay rusting of stringers and crossmembers of the underframe in areas where water was easily trapped or the wood would have a high mositure content. When repainted trucks were freight car color ( note regulatons prohibit painting wheels). Asphaltum was applied to the roof and then painted freight car color. 1952 Fregiht car color was changed with the development and use of synthetic pigments. The Freight Car Color became much darker and browner. All cars were still painted freight car color with black underframes, asphaltum at steel-wood junctures, asphaltum on roof with freight car color overspray except galvanized roofs. On galvanized roofs the asphaltum was not painted over. c. 1954 with the adoption of the Shadow Keystone paint scheme, covered hoppers were painted a light gray 1957 open top hoppers painted entirely black. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: USP P85B Now Available Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 08:25:46 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 749 Union Station Products has now made available car sides for the Pennsy class P85B coach. See http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/usp.html for further information. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Class PS14 Passenger Car? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 08:59:45 -0400 Content-Length: 1171 Jerry (et al), I believe that the section sleepers (14 secs, or 12-1s) were still listed as revenue cars available to the public until the mid 50s. They may also have accomodated the deadheading crews, but they appeared on the schedule of all overnight trains except the Broadway. regards Andy >>The 14 section car was a Betterment rebuild of an old Pullman. There was >>one which ran for many years in the "General" as well, if I believe my >>consist reports sources. > >Just this morning I provided an update to Andy Miller on this topic. > >Found out that the 14 section car was indeed a heavyweight...still in use >on the 1953 Liberty Limited. This car was placed just behind the coaches >and just ahead of the diner and was used by "deadheading" crews. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:04:26 -0400 From: "Mark D. Bej" Subject: Re: millstone branch Content-Length: 1000 NIGHTHAWK COMMS wrote: > > Sir: > > I live in Somerset NJ about 1 mile N of the old Millstone Branch at > Clyde. I was wondering if you could give me any info on the line or > recommend any books. As far as I know, the line never really served > it's purpose and was abandoned in the 1950's??? Any old pictures would > help. Thank you. > > Dave Dolinsky Dave, I know relatively little about it. However, I believe there was recent discussion on PRR-Talk about this branch, and I am referring the question there. PRR-Talkers, please cc: Dave, as he may not be subscribed at present. -- mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Whary, Charles E" Subject: FW: PRR Loco Paint Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:08:47 -0400 Content-Length: 1926 Charles E. Whary Project Manager Facilities Services Division >---------- >From: Whary, Charles E >Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 9:06 AM >To: 'David J. Wartell' >Subject: FW: PRR Loco Paint > >If possible this 8 page document could be scanned and placed on PRR-Talk so >all could benefit from this knowledge. >Charles E. Whary >Project Manager >Facilities Services Division > >---------- >From: David J. Wartell[SMTP:djwartel@ix.netcom.com] >Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 8:11 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: PRR Loco Paint > >>The Pennsylvannia Research And Information Association was the original name >>of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. The >>publication in question is the premier souce of information on painting >>steam >>locomotives. Unfortunately, it is long out of print. >> >>If anyone has a copy I am willing to pay for a photocopy. >> >>Rich Orr >> > >I have a copy of the booklet "The Painting of PRR Locomotives and Tenders." >It is only eight pages long. I would be happy to send you a copy Rich. > > >Dave Wartell >djwartel@ix.netcom.com > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Class PS14 Passenger Car? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 09:17:59 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1185 On 9/23/97 8:59 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: > I believe that the section sleepers (14 secs, or 12-1s) were still listed >as >revenue cars available to the public until the mid 50s. They may also have >accomodated the deadheading crews, but they appeared on the schedule of all >overnight trains except the Broadway. It was a Wayner "Passenger Train Consists" book that mentioned the crew use. Somewhere, possibly the same source, also stated that "the car didn't make a dime", implying that it was listed as a revenue car but not used for revenue. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Loco Paint -Reply Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 09:20:17 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1598 On 9/23/97 9:23 AM, Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com (Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com) wrote: >> I have a copy of the booklet "The Painting of PRR Locomotives >> and Tenders." It is only eight pages long. I would be happy to >> send you a copy Rich. > >> Dave Wartell >> djwartel@ix.netcom.com > >If it is only eight pages long, could it be key entered into a electronic >document so that it could be shared on some media such as "Keystone >Crossings"? I would be willing to do the key entry. Does it have any >illustrations that would need to be scanned? If it is out of print, is it >still >under copywrite protection? I have already offered (offline) to scan and convert this to Acrobat format. This is the easiest way to get it online fast. It also maintains its original layout. Since it is only eight pages, it would also be a good re-keying project. If someone keys it in, I'll take care of the HTML coding required to place it online at "KC". Let me know who's doing what. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 23 Sep 1997 08:23:30 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Re: PRR Loco Paint -Reply Content-Length: 999 >>> djwartel@ix.netcom.com 09/22/97 07:35pm wrote>>> > I have a copy of the booklet "The Painting of PRR Locomotives > and Tenders." It is only eight pages long. I would be happy to > send you a copy Rich. > Dave Wartell > djwartel@ix.netcom.com If it is only eight pages long, could it be key entered into a electronic document so that it could be shared on some media such as "Keystone Crossings"? I would be willing to do the key entry. Does it have any illustrations that would need to be scanned? If it is out of print, is it still under copywrite protection? Bill Laird Houston, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:32:54 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Erie & Pittsburgh Passenger Ops Content-Length: 1078 A while back I asked about passenger service to/from Erie in the late '40s, & the Northern/Southern Express on the Philadelphia & Erie was discussed. I would imagine that there would have been service on the Erie & Pittsburgh as well. Would anyone have information on that? Also, would the heavyweight passenger cars have still been in service as modeled by Bachmann ('30s prototype, correct?), or would they have been modified or painted differently by the late '40s? I would suspect that service to Erie wouldn't get the 'latest & greatest' of the Pennsy fleet, and that the Bachmann scheme might still be appropriate. Thanks! -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 08:35:10 CST Subject: Re: Distance Content-Length: 1070 RE: correct milages between cities served by the PRR, I have always understood that these figures were often accurate for a specific time but when (for example) a curve reduction program was completed, the original milages might no longer be accurate - usually a given line that was now straighter was also now a bit shorter. I don't know whether this has any relevance to New York to Washington distances, as this line was not as significantly altered as, say, the Middle Division after the heavy rebuilding of c.1900-1910. PRR Forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Freight car color Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:43:12 -0500 Content-Length: 914 I hate to even start the debate about freight car color, but for those whose color rods in their eyes are the same as mine, I find Procolor Western Maryland Oxide Red a good starting point and, being lazy, I don't have to worry about mixing ratios. I just weather to get variations. I have been buying up bottles wherever I can since I don't know about the future of this company (they had a booth space reserved at Madison,but no one showed). Too bad; my experience is that their paint has been more workable than the Badger stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Blackhawk Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:46:46 -0500 Content-Length: 1166 Getting copies of their black and white steam movies would be of interest, or have clips already been included in other offerings? From: Bob Webber Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 8:13 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Blackhawk Does anyone know if the slides that Blackhawk distributed are still available under a different label? They had some decent sets of early PRR Diesels.... Thanks,Bob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 08:59:49 CST Subject: Accurate colors for PRR equipment Content-Length: 2106 Hi, everyone, I too have often wondered about the "correct" colors for PRR engines, rolling stock, etc. and appreciate the info that's been passed on to us in recent postings. I hope what I'm about to say will not be construed as an abdication of my SPF status, but I suspect that most of us asking color questions are doing so to further our modeling efforts and we need to remember some truths of physics. First, most of the discussion would only apply to equipment fresh out of the paint shop. A few months in service and sun and rain and coal dust would have their way. Second, if you look at the various books on PRR equipment, engines, etc. in color, the variation in color is remarkable and partly due to lighting conditions, type of film, etc. Third, given the lighting conditions that prevail on many layouts, colors that match color chips don't always look right on the models. My point? While accurate color chips are important historical records and therefore worthy of accuracy, for modeling purposes, it may not be that helpful. My rule of thumb for my models is make the color lighter and brighter than the color chip says, especially true for Tuscan red. To my mind, it looks truer to prototype than a strict match of a paint chip. For my money, I want my models to remind me of the way I remember the PRR and see it in color photos, a subjective standard from the outset, so while I recognize the need for accurate color renderings, I don't see the utility in being held hostage top them. Your thoughts?? PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:06:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR divisions Content-Length: 1516 In a message dated 97-09-22 23:38:33 EDT, skram@netreach.net writes: << As a new member of the list and attempting to expanded my knowledge of the PRR can someone please tell me the different divisions that made up the Standard Railroad of the World. For example where did the middle begin and end? What were the other divisions and where did they start and end? Also what was the standard route from Enola to the Horseshoe Curve? Any help will be greatly appreciated in my quest to be a SPF! >> The Divisions in use depends on the time frame. During the steam to diesel transition, the era most people seem to refer to when discussing the PRR the Division which I can remember off the top of my head were: New York, Del-Mar, Philadelphia, Middle, Pittsburgh, Williamsport, Renovo, Connemaugh, Buffalo, Wilkes-Barre, Eastern, Fort Wayne, Chicago, PanHandle, Monongahela, Columbus, Indianaopolis, Logansport, Chicago Terminal There are a few other which escape me at the moment. Enola to Horseshoe Curve would have been the Middle Division. The Middle Division went from Banks to Slope. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Blackhawk Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:31:03 -0400 Content-Length: 2592 Some of the slides I purchased in Blackhawk sets are now offered in slide sets from Al Chionne. It has to do with the original owners/photographers selling their originals, or entering an agreement giving a producer rights to sell copies. When the agreement terminates, the images are offered again to another image producer. I can only conclude that Blackhawk no longer has these rights, to say nothing about if they or some successor entity are even still in the business. Comparing what's in my own collection, Al Chionne's offerings have a higher level of quality than most, certainly far superior to the poor production levels that came out of Blackhawk. Or it seems that way to me, Andrew Harmantas, an SPF waiting to see the trains at C&O FM Milepost Zero (nothing much moving today) > ---------- > From: Bob Zoeller[SMTP:bob@amsignal.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 10:46 AM > To: PRR-Talk; 'Bob Webber' > Subject: RE: Blackhawk > > Getting copies of their black and white steam movies would be of > interest, or have clips already been included in other offerings? > From: Bob Webber > Sent: Monday, September 22, 1997 8:13 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Blackhawk > > Does anyone know if the slides that Blackhawk distributed are still > available under a different label? They had some decent sets of early > PRR > Diesels.... Thanks,Bob > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:20:32 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: Accurate colors for PRR equipment Content-Length: 1217 George Pierson wrote: > ... but I suspect that most of us asking color > questions are doing so to further our modeling efforts and we need to > remember some truths of physics. ... > I agree, and I'm sure most of us would. These discussions seem to usually end up having two main points: 1. What color did was used (Was the frame "freight car color" or black?) 2. What did that color actually look like? (Was freight car color oxide with an orange tint? I use brand x color y.) Knowing what it would look like right out of the shop will give each of us a starting point when deciding how badly weathered we want the cars to look. Being both new to the hobby and too young to remember the Pennsy (5 yrs old at merger), these answers are invaluable. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:46:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Steam Years 2 and other.... Content-Length: 515 Anyone picked up Pennsy Steam Years 2 yet and like to comment on it? I haven't yet had a chance to get out and pick it up... -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:21:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Dugas Subject: RF16 lettering color. Content-Length: 857 Hi All, As a final check before I spec the lettering for my RF16's I would like to know whether the freight sharks ever wore Gold lettering or wore only "Yellow"? I am interested in doing one of my ABBA sets in "as delivered" scheme and am not sure on this point. Second, does anyone have any recommendation for a decal set to use for N-Scale sharks? I am planning to use Accupaint's "Brunswick Green" unless anyone has a better choice for DGLE. Thanks, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Fw: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:13:31 -0400 Content-Length: 1383 ---------- > From: Harry W. Fitch IV > To: Kent Loudon > Subject: Re: "Standard Bike Path Of The World." > Date: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 6:12 PM > > This is a fate worse than many things suggested > before on this post, but for the sake of Jerry Jordak > I will refrain from any additional bashing of the date > in infamy. (February 1, 1968) > > H. Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > > Hey Folks, > > Check out Jerry Jordaks PC page if you have not > been there in a while, he has updated the format. > > http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/pc/pc.html > > > > >> And while I'm at it, what type of punishment should be > given to a model manufacturer who willfully letters any and all > models for the PRR no matter how ridiculous it really is? << > > He should wake up one morning to find all his products lettered PENN > CENTRAL ! > > - Kent Loudon, Somerville, NJ > 13:16 23-Sep-97 via OzWin 2.12.2 > ---------- > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Accurate colors for PRR equipment Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:23:02 -0400 Content-Length: 2977 I can see your point. Floquil grimy black under florescent lighting is for me, weathered DGLE. Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ********************************************************* ---------- > From: George Pierson > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Accurate colors for PRR equipment > Date: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 10:59 AM > > Hi, everyone, > > I too have often wondered about the "correct" colors for PRR engines, > rolling stock, etc. and appreciate the info that's been passed on to us in > recent postings. I hope what I'm about to say will not be construed as an > abdication of my SPF status, but I suspect that most of us asking color > questions are doing so to further our modeling efforts and we need to > remember some truths of physics. First, most of the discussion would only > apply to equipment fresh out of the paint shop. A few months in service > and sun and rain and coal dust would have their way. Second, if you look > at the various books on PRR equipment, engines, etc. in color, the > variation in color is remarkable and partly due to lighting conditions, > type of film, etc. Third, given the lighting conditions that prevail on > many layouts, colors that match color chips don't always look right on the > models. My point? While accurate color chips are important historical > records and therefore worthy of accuracy, for modeling purposes, it may not > be that helpful. My rule of thumb for my models is make the color lighter > and brighter than the color chip says, especially true for Tuscan red. To > my mind, it looks truer to prototype than a strict match of a paint chip. > For my money, I want my models to remind me of the way I remember the PRR > and see it in color photos, a subjective standard from the outset, so while > I recognize the need for accurate color renderings, I don't see the utility > in being held hostage top them. Your thoughts?? > > PRR forever, > > George Pierson > > Sincerely, > > George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu > Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:44:26 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR freight car color. Content-Length: 2926 In a message dated 97-09-23 05:33:11 EDT, robs@protocol.zycad.com (Rob Schoenberg) writes: << Great description but are you sure about the black underframes? I always thought they were painted freigh car color. In the PRR Compendium there are a few lettering diagrams (circa 1954) that have the painting schedule. It calls for freight car color. Can't say for sure what they used before 1954. Also, the painting schedule is crossed off and there is a reference to "Instructions for painting freight equiptment cars issued Altoona 12/1/55. Does anyone have a copy of this? Since it might interest some list members, here's what the schedule says.... ------------ Painting Schedule (from an X43a lettering diagram dated 2-1-54) ------------ Exterior: Paint the bare dry metal, except for new galv. roof with synthetic freight car primer. Spray paint the sides and ends with two coats, the roof (except new galv. roof) and underframe with one coat synthetic freight car enamel. New galv. roofs must be spray painted with two coats of asphaltum compound (car cement) Stencil the car with synthetic stencil enamel. (white) Stencil the keystone shadow with alkali-resting stencil paste paint. (black) Interior: Paint the bare dry metal except for new galv. roof with synthetic freight car primer (on new cars only) Spray metal sides, ends, doors, and roof except for new galv. roof with one coat of synthetic freight car enamel (on new cars only) Stencil metal surfaces with synthetic stenciling enamel (white) Stencil wood lining with alkali-resisting stencil paste paint (black) Trucks: Paint with one coat of hard-drying enames (on new cars only) (black) Underframe: Paint top surface of all underframs details in contact with wood with one coat of asphaltom compound (car cement), spray or brush paint interior surfaces of side sills, side posts, side sheets, and sills and end sheets with asphaltum compound (car cement) for a distance approximately 12" upwards from top horizontal surface of side sill on new cars and cars undergoing extensive repairs. >> Rob: I checked some painting diagrams from the circle Keystone scheme. They say "Freight car color should be used for the body of the car and all letters and figures should be white unless otherwise marked." Far less detail than the 1954 Shadow Keystone instructions. Don't know where I got the black underframes from. Sorry for posting the incorrect information. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:21:58 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR divisions Content-Length: 1547 In a message dated 97-09-23 11:23:59 EDT, Rich Orr replies to inquiry posed by an earnest SPF in training: << The Divisions in use depends on the time frame. During the steam to diesel transition, the era most people seem to refer to when discussing the PRR the Division which I can remember off the top of my head were: New York, Del-Mar, Philadelphia, Middle, Pittsburgh, Williamsport, Renovo, Connemaugh, Buffalo, Wilkes-Barre, Eastern, Fort Wayne, Chicago, PanHandle, Monongahela, Columbus, Indianaopolis, Logansport, Chicago Terminal There are a few other which escape me at the moment. Enola to Horseshoe Curve would have been the Middle Division. The Middle Division went from Banks to Slope. >> How 'bout Cincinnati, St. Louis, Grand Rapids and Toledo.which is 23. I think that may be too many. Although, strictly speaking, in 1940 the Pennsylvania stopped marking cabin cars with their division assignments and began listing their region assignments. I'm writing a magazine piece on the N6 class cabins and just stumbled across this piece of information while studying a lettering tracing this afternoon. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:44:49 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR divisions 1941 Content-Length: 2069 The divisions were organized into Grand Divisions and Regions Atlantic Div. Eastern REgion Baltimore & Eastern RR Buffalo Div. Northern Grand Division Central Region Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR Chicago Terminal Div. Northwestern Grand Division Western REgion Cincinnati Div. Southwestern Grand Div. Western Region Cleveland Div. Lake Grand Div. Central Region Columbus Div. southwestern Grand Div. Western region conemaugh Div. Western PA. Grand Div. Central Region Delmarva Div. southern Grand Div. Eastern Region Eastern Div. Eastern Ohio Grand Div. Central Region Erie & Ashtabula Div. Lake Grand Div. Central Region Fort Wayne Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Grand Rapids Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Indianapolis Div. Southwestern Grand Div. Western Region Logansport Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Long Island RR Maryland Div. Southern Grand Div. Eastern Region Middle Div. Eastern PA Grand Div. Eastern REgion Monongahela Div. Western PA Grand Div. Central REgion New York Div. New Jersey Grand Div. New York Zone Panhandle Div. Eastern Ohio Grand Div. Central Region Pennsylvania - Reading Seashore Lines Philadelphia Eastern PA Grand Div. Eastern REgion Phildelphia Terminal Div. Eastern Region Pittsburgh Div. Western PA GRand Div. Central REgion Renovo Div. Northern Grand Div. Central Region St. Louis Div. Southwestern Grand Div. Western Region Toledo Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Waynesburg & Washington RR Wilkes-Barre Div. Central PA GRand Div. Eastern Region Williamsport Div. Central PA GRand Div. Eastern Region Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Accurate colors for PRR equipment Content-Length: 882 For those of you who are new to list, I will offer this information obtained from my grandfather who worked for the Pennsy for 52 years. Prior to the adoption of the Shadow Keystone paint scheme, you could tell where a freshly painted car had been painted by its color. The variation in what was freight car color was that great. Note I said on freshly painted cars. The natural pigments quickly faded under sunlight and covering with dirt and grime also tended to vary teh color. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:27:03 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 1355 Hey Folks, I'm writing a magazine piece on Pennsy cabin cars and have some questions about the bobbers rebuilt into the N6 class. I'm willing to pay copying costs or to purchase the issue outright to get a copy of "PRR Class NC, NE and NEA Cabin Cars" by Robert L. Johnson in the March 1976 issue of The Keystone, pp. 3-14 I need copies of the text, photos, gen. arrg't tracings of the NC, NE and NEA cabins. BTW, Johnson wrote the lengthy review of Champion Decal's Pennsy cabin car sets in the Fall 1997 issue of The Keystone we all just received last week. I'm also looking for information about the fourth bobber class, the NBA, that was rebuilt into the N6 class. I suspect that it had a slant-sided "Lines West" cupola like the NEA but need a tracing to be sure. In service and absolute retiremetn dates would also be good. Does anybody out there know when the last N6 was retired. Do any still exist? Thanks in advance for your help. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:47:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Da72jmk@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR divisions 1941 Content-Length: 2277 In this scheme, where is the line to Sodus Point? I thought it was in a "Susquehanna" division in the 1940's. In a message dated 97-09-23 21:48:41 EDT, Rich Orr wrote: << The divisions were organized into Grand Divisions and Regions Atlantic Div. Eastern REgion Baltimore & Eastern RR Buffalo Div. Northern Grand Division Central Region Cherry Tree & Dixonville RR Chicago Terminal Div. Northwestern Grand Division Western REgion Cincinnati Div. Southwestern Grand Div. Western Region Cleveland Div. Lake Grand Div. Central Region Columbus Div. southwestern Grand Div. Western region conemaugh Div. Western PA. Grand Div. Central Region Delmarva Div. southern Grand Div. Eastern Region Eastern Div. Eastern Ohio Grand Div. Central Region Erie & Ashtabula Div. Lake Grand Div. Central Region Fort Wayne Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Grand Rapids Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Indianapolis Div. Southwestern Grand Div. Western Region Logansport Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Long Island RR Maryland Div. Southern Grand Div. Eastern Region Middle Div. Eastern PA Grand Div. Eastern REgion Monongahela Div. Western PA Grand Div. Central REgion New York Div. New Jersey Grand Div. New York Zone Panhandle Div. Eastern Ohio Grand Div. Central Region Pennsylvania - Reading Seashore Lines Philadelphia Eastern PA Grand Div. Eastern REgion Phildelphia Terminal Div. Eastern Region Pittsburgh Div. Western PA GRand Div. Central REgion Renovo Div. Northern Grand Div. Central Region St. Louis Div. Southwestern Grand Div. Western Region Toledo Div. Northwestern Grand Div. Western Region Waynesburg & Washington RR Wilkes-Barre Div. Central PA GRand Div. Eastern Region Williamsport Div. Central PA GRand Div. Eastern Region >> ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Early cabin cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 09:15:58 -0400 Content-Length: 803 Tom V. wrote (in part): >. . . >was rebuilt into the N6 class. I suspect that it had a slant-sided "Lines >West" cupola like the NEA . . . > - ----- I had always been told that the slant sides of the wooden cabin car cupola was a line EAST feature to fit the tighter clearances on the older routes. I thought that L/W used the straight side cupola. Does anyone know which is right? regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:41:19 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 1926 Greetings to Tom and the group, One of the presentations at the 1996 PRR T&HS Convention in New Kensington, PA, was a very detailed one about PRR cabin cars. The presenter had many slides of the older ones. Sorry, can't remember his name. Maybe he is someone on the list. If not, maybe someone can remember who it was and be able to provide contact information. I'll never be able to find that year's program with my filing system. Hope this was somewhat helpful. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 12:27 AM 9/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hey Folks, > >I'm writing a magazine piece on Pennsy cabin cars and have some questions >about the bobbers rebuilt into the N6 class. I'm willing to pay copying costs >or to purchase the issue outright to get a copy of "PRR Class NC, NE and NEA >Cabin Cars" by Robert L. Johnson in the March 1976 issue of The Keystone, pp. >3-14 I need copies of the text, photos, gen. arrg't tracings of the NC, NE >and NEA cabins. > >BTW, Johnson wrote the lengthy review of Champion Decal's Pennsy cabin car >sets in the Fall 1997 issue of The Keystone we all just received last week. > >I'm also looking for information about the fourth bobber class, the NBA, that >was rebuilt into the N6 class. I suspect that it had a slant-sided "Lines >West" cupola like the NEA but need a tracing to be sure. In service and >absolute retiremetn dates would also be good. > >Does anybody out there know when the last N6 was retired. Do any still exist? > >Thanks in advance for your help. > >Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: Accurate colors for PRR equipment Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:57:40 -0500 Content-Length: 3076 George, I agree. I just painted an M1 and a B6 and I am sure many SPF's would say they are way too light, but our club is still poorly lit and I approximate the way I have seen most locomotives in color photos and the one loco I saw run in service (a J1). Just to give you an idea, not that this matches anyone's paint chip, I use Polly S 3 parts Brunswick to 5 parts Weathered Black. I do use a purer DGLE for T1 and diesels. ---------- From: George Pierson Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 1997 9:59 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Accurate colors for PRR equipment Hi, everyone, I too have often wondered about the "correct" colors for PRR engines, rolling stock, etc. and appreciate the info that's been passed on to us in recent postings. I hope what I'm about to say will not be construed as an abdication of my SPF status, but I suspect that most of us asking color questions are doing so to further our modeling efforts and we need to remember some truths of physics. First, most of the discussion would only apply to equipment fresh out of the paint shop. A few months in service and sun and rain and coal dust would have their way. Second, if you look at the various books on PRR equipment, engines, etc. in color, the variation in color is remarkable and partly due to lighting conditions, type of film, etc. Third, given the lighting conditions that prevail on many layouts, colors that match color chips don't always look right on the models. My point? While accurate color chips are important historical records and therefore worthy of accuracy, for modeling purposes, it may not be that helpful. My rule of thumb for my models is make the color lighter and brighter than the color chip says, especially true for Tuscan red. To my mind, it looks truer to prototype than a strict match of a paint chip. For my money, I want my models to remind me of the way I remember the PRR and see it in color photos, a subjective standard from the outset, so while I recognize the need for accurate color renderings, I don't see the utility in being held hostage top them. Your thoughts?? PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu (George Pierson) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 09:08:03 CST Subject: Blackhawk films Content-Length: 1393 I'm not sure about this, but I believe that A&R Productions, a rr video outfit from New England, had some of the old Blackhawk movies of the PRR (both color and b&w) available on a video entitled (I think) "The Pennsy and More". It's pretty good although some the b&w stuff (which was shot around Englewood south of Chicago) is technically poor - but then I'll take any film of an S1, poor or otherwise. I don't recall A&R giving credit to Blackhawk but the content seemed to correspond to some of the old Blackhawk ads. There's an A&R ad in the most recent issue of RAILFAN & RAILROAD. While on this subject, I'd like to hear from you SPFers about your favorite (or least favorite) PRR videos. I'm not flush enough to buy every one that hits the market but I do want to own the really good ones. Which ones have you really enjoyed? PRR forever, George Pierson Sincerely, George N. Pierson, Ph.D. george.pierson@trnty.edu Dept. of Philosophy, Trinity Christian College ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:34:07 -0400 From: "C. Conan Evans" Subject: Re: Baltimore Post Office Content-Length: 1491 Jerry Britton wrote: > The Baltimore post office used to sit just east of Penn Station in > Baltimore. Is the > aforementioned facility still standing? The building is still standing and is used by the city, I believe the Dept of Public Works. > Anyone know of any additional > photos of it? If you want current photos, the place is pretty well accessible from all sides from street level, its parrelleled by St. Paul (west) and Calvert St. (east) The track level area is fenced but permission is easily obtained for your purpose. If you are looking for historical pictures, and you venture down to Balto from lovely York, my suggestion is the Enoch Pratt Central Library, across the street from the Bisilica, a few blocks south of Penn Station on Cathedral St. The Maryland and of course Baltimore collections are great. An early weekday will prove easiest for the staff is most concentrated. The B&O museum has its collection, but also get in touch with a member of the Baltimore Society of Model Engineers, which I am a member, its collection may prove helpful. Conan ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: All Time Diesel Roster Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 15:36:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1343 A few days ago Rich Orr posted to the list an "all-time diesel roster" which listed road numbers and engine type. (The listserv is still licking its wounds from that one!) Wanted to remind those that may be interested, Rich (I think) supplied a more extensive version of this list a long time ago. It is on "KC" at "http://prr.dsop.com/motiveops/". The list is broken into several managable pieces and includes road number, PRR class, manufacturer model, year built, manufacturer, horsepower, and notes. The notes field includes info such as dynamic brakes, dual control, hump control, speed control, train stop control multiple unit control on rear, locotrol master unit, locotrol slave unit, rebuild info, renumbering info, etc. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:57:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: All Time Diesel Roster Content-Length: 671 > A few days ago Rich Orr posted to the list an "all-time diesel roster" > which listed road numbers and engine type. (The listserv is still licking > its wounds from that one!) > I thought it was a "final" one, what engines were "conveyed" to PC? Did i miss something? -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:07:04 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Trains 574/575 & 580/581 was Re: Erie & Pittsburgh Passenger Ops Content-Length: 3000 Grettings to Jerry and the group, And a while back, I provided some information about trains 574/575 the Dominion/Washington Express and 580/581 the Southern/Northern Express. I mentioned that they ran as a combined train to Harrisburg-Emporium. At Emporium 574/575 ran as its own train Emporium-Buffalo and 580/581 ran as its own train Emporium-Erie. This is true after 1954. Prior to that they were two complete and separate trains from Harrisburg-Buffalo in the case of 574/575 and Harrisburg-Erie in the case of 580/581. They ran about 20 minutes apart. This summer I had the opportunity to talk with a former PRR RICH tower operator (McElhattan, PA). He had kept the timetables he was issued for the years he was employed by the railroad; 1950-1965. The timetables indicated that the two trains ran independantly and separately from each other until General Order #311 was issued April 25, 1954. After that, they ran combined Emporium-Harrisburg. According to Wayner Publications' _Passenger Train Consists of the 1940s_, train 574, the Dominion Express, had the following make up as it departed Buffalo on May 14, 1945: Two K4s locomotives #s 5426 (lead) and 7116 Baggage Express 5644 Baggage Mail 5467 Baggage Coach 5118 Three Coaches 3746, 4359, 4244 Poplar Isle Isaac Hull Ambassodor Poplar Leaf Mettler Dunning The Duquesne Business Car Buffalo Business Car Hope this was of some help. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:32 AM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >A while back I asked about passenger service to/from Erie in the late >'40s, & the Northern/Southern Express on the Philadelphia & Erie was >discussed. I would imagine that there would have been service on the >Erie & Pittsburgh as well. Would anyone have information on that? > >Also, would the heavyweight passenger cars have still been in service as >modeled by Bachmann ('30s prototype, correct?), or would they have been >modified or painted differently by the late '40s? I would suspect that >service to Erie wouldn't get the 'latest & greatest' of the Pennsy >fleet, and that the Bachmann scheme might still be appropriate. > >Thanks! >-- >Jerry Shickler >Erie, PA >geshick@velocity.net > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:00:09 +0000 Subject: Any PRR O Scalers out there? Content-Length: 683 Friends on the PRR-Talk list: Will anyone who is an O Scale PRR model railroader who is familiar with commercially made or kitbashed locomotives and cars please e-mail me off- list and identify yourself? I'm working on a project for a client and could use some assistance. Thanks. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:59:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: All Time Diesel Roster Content-Length: 832 In a message dated 97-09-24 15:43:53 EDT, britton@pit-magnus.com writes: << A few days ago Rich Orr posted to the list an "all-time diesel roster" which listed road numbers and engine type. (The listserv is still licking its wounds from that one!) >> Jerry, a minor correction. what I posted several days ago was the final PRR diesel roster, i.e. those locomotives on the roster when the PRR died -- midnight Jan. 31, 1968. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Change of Server Software Date: Wed, 24 Sep 97 20:16:48 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1306 This evening at 8 p.m. eastern time my Web server was officially cut over from one software product to another. The new software is faster and, since it is the same software as that for my FTP server, allows me to run one less application on the server...further increasing performance. The changeover did require the relocation of some directories. I did as much testing as was possible locally, however, let me know if any "bad links" result. I will make repairs/corrections ASAP. FTP service will be "sloppy" during the next 24 hours until I re-path everything. Access privs are fine and FTP is enabled. Please contact us with any questions or concerns that you may have. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:59:19 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Heavyweight Broadway Ltd. consist Content-Length: 780 Anybody out there know what the usual makeup of the pre-Fleet of Modernism (i.e. standard heavyweight, pre 1938) Broadway Limited was. I know that the Pennsy limited it to 7 to 9 cars, and I have Arthur Durbin's article in the Feb. 1962 TRAINS describing the train, but I don't know what cars were assigned regularly, nor their arrangement in the train. Regards, Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:59:40 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Distance Content-Length: 1582 In a message dated 97-09-23 02:25:59 EDT, bobsin@nac.net writes: >This is not as simple as it seems! John is right! But here, from the April 30, 1967 Eastern Region TT, are the figures. New York-Hudson 8.6 Hudson-Zoo 81.0 Zoo-Arsenal, via River Line 2.6 Arsenal-Washington 133.9 This totals 226.1. And this has not changed, even though almost everything else on the Corridor has changed since then. Amtrak's troubles with this mileage figure go back to its inception. I believe someone in the timetable design section read the figures from a PRR timetable and failed to realize that we switch from "NY" mileposts to "Jersey City" mileposts at Hudson. When you are racing across New Jersey and glimpse one of those mileposts, the distance thereon is from the old Jersey City terminal, NOT Penn Station. In Philly, the High Line is 0.1 shorter, and the old Grays Ferry branch(the original main) was 0.2 shorter. "New York" means midpoint of the platforms at Penn Station. "Washington" means bumping blocks on the stub-end tracks. Both of these locations could vary by several tenths depending on exactly where you are situating yourself. Rich Copeland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:09:38 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Broadway heavyweights Content-Length: 1469 Hello all... this is in reguard to the post of same... I don't know if it will but maybe it will help... the book..."PRR Color guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment" shows a picture on page 24 of a sleeping car... the name of the car is "times Square"and in the caption next to it it mentions that the car was used on the Broadway.(Pullman built 1925) It is possible that a like car "Rittenhouse Square" was also used. Also the car that the Washington chapter of the NRHS has,that they rent out is mentioned as having been on the Broadway and the Sprit of St. Louis the name of the car is Dover Harbor(former Maple Shade)(Pullman 1923) (smoker-lounge-baggage)? it is linked on "A PRR home page" and last but not least...well i don't know when the twin units were first used but i guess they would have not been on the older train..so that leaves me to guess that maybe a D-78 class diner or similar type could have been used.. any one else know? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:50:39 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: 1361 Content-Length: 555 Hello all.... Its been a while since i heard anything...does anyone know the current status of 1361(K-4)? H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:43:58 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 1426 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > I had always been told that the slant sides of the wooden cabin car cupola was > a line EAST feature to fit the tighter clearances on the older routes. I > thought that L/W used the straight side cupola. > > Does anyone know which is right? > Andy, I won't speculate about the clearance rationale, but Quality Craft made two different PRR N6 cabin car kits, one with the slant-side cupola, and one with the square side cupola. The square cupola design was described as a Lines West model. Referring to Bill Driscoll's _O Scale Car Kit Summary_, kit 508 was listed as N6B, with the slant cupola, and kit 509 was listed as N6A, with the square cupola. The cars may still be offered by Gloor Craft. Max Gray imported two O scale versions of the N6B, his #901 with the cupola offset from center, and #902, with the cupola centered. (Checking the above references, however accurate, was quicker than going into a stack of _Keystones_ or digging into my kit stash.) Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PS14 Heavyweights Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 13:17:23 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1351 In recent days we have discussed the heavyweight 14 section (PS14) cars in use in consist lists in 1943, 1945, and as late as 1953. There were twelve such cars among the fleet of "betterment" cars that were streamlined for use in the "Fleet of Modernism" in 1938-39. Only the Broadway Limited had entirely new cars. The 14 section car was Pullman Standard plan 3958A and the cars had the following names: Andrew Carnegie Andrew Squire Bartholomew Penrose Cyrus H. McCormick David Sinton Elbert H. Gary George Rogers Clark Henry Watterson Marcus A. Hanna Potter Palmer Salmon P. Chase Thomas A. Hendricks If anyone knows which of these was specifically assigned to the Liberty Limited, please let me know. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PS14 Heavyweights From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 14:02:46 -0400 Content-Length: 940 . . . >The 14 section car was Pullman Standard plan 3958A and the cars had the >following names: > Andrew Carnegie > Andrew Squire > Bartholomew Penrose > Cyrus H. McCormick > David Sinton > Elbert H. Gary > George Rogers Clark > Henry Watterson > Marcus A. Hanna > Potter Palmer > Salmon P. Chase > Thomas A. Hendricks . . . I believe that Elbert H. Gary should be Elbridge H. Gerry (a signer of the U.S. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, a congressman, governor of Massachusetts, and VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (1813-14). ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:18:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: HO Pennsy diesel list updated Content-Length: 808 Hi, The list of non-brass HO scale models of Pennsylvania Railroad diesels available at http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/prr-diesels.html has been updated. I expect to work next on verifying and documenting the phases of the various units, and on documenting the "fidelity" of the models. Any questions, comments, help, complaints, whatever, are welcome. Please send them to shadow+diesels@dementia.org Thanks -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:34:42 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 1650 Hi All. Stephen Bartlett wrote: > > I won't speculate about the clearance rationale, but Quality Craft made > two different PRR N6 cabin car kits, one with the slant-side cupola, and > one with the square side cupola. The square cupola design was described > as a Lines West model. > NJ International's "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvanmia and Long Island RR's-Caboose Data Book No. 2" backs up Stephen's data, sort of. Most of the N6B cabins pictured are in Lines East service: 982086 Eastern Region 1948 pic 98002 New York Region 1965 pic 981138 at Woodbury, N.J. 1962 pic 980189 Eastern Region undated pic 980824 Southwestern Region 1963 pic 980020 Philadelphia Region undated pic Caption with plans states: "N6B Cabin Cars were adopted by Lines West in 1914" and "...built in two styles offset and centered cupola." For the N6A's: 981131 Ft Wayne Division undated pic Caption with plans states: "N6A Cabin Cars were adopted by Lines West in 1914." and "...differed from N6B class cars only in cupola design." One may infer from this that the N6B's may have been used system-wide but tended to be back east and the N6A's would have only been used on Lines West. Any thoughts on this, anyone? Later, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:21:16 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/97 Content-Length: 596 Greetings! Someone inquired about 1361. Last I heard she had been dismantled and was transported to Steamtown in Scranton for overhaul and a return to service. Anyone have any more details? Jim Hunter ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:21:16 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/97 Content-Length: 596 Greetings! Someone inquired about 1361. Last I heard she had been dismantled and was transported to Steamtown in Scranton for overhaul and a return to service. Anyone have any more details? Jim Hunter ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:42:26 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Broadway Ltd. consist effective April 29, 1950 Content-Length: 928 Train 29 west bound leaving NY daily at 5:00 PM 1 BM70M 1 SL 4Cpt 4DBR 2DR transfer to ATSF train 19 for Los Angles 1 SL 21 Roomette ! 1 SL 21 Roomette 1 SL 12 Dup, SR, 4DBR 1 SL Lounge 2DBR Bar % 1 Diner 1 Kit. Dorm 1 SL 4 Cpt 4DBR 2DR 1 SL 10 Rmt 6DBR % 1 SL 10 Rmt 6DBR % 1 SL 10 Rmt 6 DBR % 1 SL 10 Rmt 6DBR 1 SL Obs @mr 1DBR Bar Lounge ! will not operate on May 29, July 3, Sept 2 % Parallel beds in double bed rooms No baggage Service That's all I have. Rich Orr ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:54:21 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 862 > > > I believe that Elbert H. Gary should be Elbridge H. Gerry (a signer of the > > U.S. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, a congressman, governor of Massachusetts, > > and VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (1813-14). > > [Off topic] And famous for the oft used term of politics the "Gerrymander" which a Boston newspaper used to deride a voting district developed by the then Governor that looked like a salamander to preserve his party's majority. Regards, Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 1440 In a message dated 97-09-25 14:05:03 EDT, you write: << Caption with plans states: "N6A Cabin Cars were adopted by Lines West in 1914." and "...differed from N6B class cars only in cupola design." One may infer from this that the N6B's may have been used system-wide but tended to be back east and the N6A's would have only been used on Lines West. Any thoughts on this, anyone? Later, >> Ron, In 1914, the Pennsylvania RR still operated as two railroads, Lines East under the board of directors in Philadelphia and Lines West under the control of the Pennsylvania Co. in Pittsburgh (operational control of the PFtW&CRW, supervisory control of the PCC&StLRR headquartered in Columbus. Consolidation of operations began in 1913 but was not complete until 1923 1914 was a big year for rcabins as the rebuilding of the NBA, NC, NE and NEA cabins into N6A and N6B cabins for Lines West began and construction of the all steel N5 for Lines East began. This was probably the last major building program thus split as consolidatio ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PS14 Heavyweights Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:09:24 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1152 On 9/25/97 2:02 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >>The 14 section car was Pullman Standard plan 3958A and the cars had the >>following names: >> ... >> Elbert H. Gary >. . . > >I believe that Elbert H. Gary should be Elbridge H. Gerry (a signer of the >U.S. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, a congressman, governor of Massachusetts, >and VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (1813-14). I won't discount your theory, but I do have two sources that show it as "Elbert H. Gary". Nothing I'm gonna lose sleep over, however. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:26:27 +0000 Subject: Re: PRR K4s 1361 at Steamtown NHS Content-Length: 1376 > > Yes, it's been thoroughly torn down and is beginning to be rebuilt > by a crew (including volunteers) at Steamtown National Historic Site > in Scranton. From time to time a friend of mine who is one of the > volunteers sends reports. They all seem to be positive, > but I'm not enough of a techno-head to be able to interpret what > the specifics mean (I can differentiate between a tube sheet and a > crown sheet, but not much beyond that). > > My acquaintance, who has worked on many steam > engines, and worked on 1361 during its previous restoration, > is much impresed with the quality of work going into the > project. A guy named Jeff Miller is the head of the restoration > crew. The most recent work to have been completed is removal of > boiler scale, removal and replacement of staybolts, and the complete > removal of the backhead, a step that was not done during the > 1986-1987 restoration. > > > > Dan Cupper > cupper@ibm.net > Romans 10:9 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Gotaskie" Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 04:07:24 -0400 Content-Length: 2469 I have a copy of an article regarding PRR cabin cars by Robert Johnson & Gary Rauch, from an old (date unknown) Keystone. It specifies that the N6A had the wide cupola and the N6B a narrow cupola. The N6A's cupola was centered while the standard N6B was offset (some were built centered). Both cabin classes were adopted by Lines West in 1914. Nothing was mentioned in the article why they were built that way. Joe ---------- > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Early cabin cars > Date: Thursday, September 25, 1997 8:43 AM > > Andrew S. Miller wrote: > > > > I had always been told that the slant sides of the wooden cabin car cupola was > > a line EAST feature to fit the tighter clearances on the older routes. I > > thought that L/W used the straight side cupola. > > > > Does anyone know which is right? > > > Andy, > > I won't speculate about the clearance rationale, but Quality Craft made > two different PRR N6 cabin car kits, one with the slant-side cupola, and > one with the square side cupola. The square cupola design was described > as a Lines West model. > > Referring to Bill Driscoll's _O Scale Car Kit Summary_, kit 508 was > listed as N6B, with the slant cupola, and kit 509 was listed as N6A, > with the square cupola. The cars may still be offered by Gloor Craft. > > Max Gray imported two O scale versions of the N6B, his #901 with the > cupola offset from center, and #902, with the cupola centered. > > (Checking the above references, however accurate, was quicker than > going into a stack of _Keystones_ or digging into my kit stash.) > > Steve Bartlett > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:26:55 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Distances Content-Length: 1918 Thanks for those who took an interest in the NY-Wash distances. The 226.1 figure I posted came from exactly the same calculations as Rich quoted -- the sum of the operating timetable distances from NY-Hudson, Hudson-Zoo, Zoo-Arsenal via River Line, and Arsenal to Washington. The other numbers: 226.5 was the figure quoted e.g. in public timetables ca 1930, via Broad Street, Philadelphia. More to the point, long after through trains ceased to run via Broad Street, PRR persisted in listing the distance for Suburban Station, but not for 30th Street, in public timetables; 30th Street was left curiously blank. So there was some "ghost of Broad Street" living on here. The NY-Wash distance was, via this "route," 226.6 miles. Other points which could affect this are, as George pointed out, line relocations (the curve straigtening at Elizabeth, for example, probably did not do much); and of course as Rich has hinted, Penn Station NY and Washington Union Station are large complexes and the exact point could be possibly debated in each. (What about the through tracks in Washington; the rebuilding of the station when it was converted to/from a Visitors Center; and anyway, the whole thing was a "foreign road" anyway -- Washington Terminal Company). The most significant thing for me is that for many years millions of passengers rode what was probably half a mile less than what their public timetables told them. I wonder what figure was used for computing train crews' pay? John Bobsin ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PS14 Heavyweights From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 08:36:03 -0400 Content-Length: 2081 Further research confuses me too. An additional search with Lycos uncovered the fact that the president of U.S.Steel at the turn of the Century was named "Elbert Gary" (middle initial unknown). Since the cars were originally built early in the 20th century, he may have been dead by then, and therefore a candidate for a Pullman car name (very few living people were ever so recognized). But I believe the car was named for the Mass Gov. I will have to research this in my library this week end. >On 9/25/97 2:02 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: > >>>The 14 section car was Pullman Standard plan 3958A and the cars had the >>>following names: >>> ... >>> Elbert H. Gary >>. . . >> >>I believe that Elbert H. Gary should be Elbridge H. Gerry (a signer of the >>U.S. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, a congressman, governor of Massachusetts, >>and VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (1813-14). > >I won't discount your theory, but I do have two sources that show it as >"Elbert H. Gary". Nothing I'm gonna lose sleep over, however. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: PS14 modernized 14 section Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:47:54 -0500 Content-Length: 555 For those willing to spend the money, Caboose Hobbies in Denver (www.caboosehobbies.com) has a Soho modernized 14 section for $165 on consignment. Undecorated, with decals. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:54:03 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 3024 In a message dated 97-09-26 04:16:44 EDT, you write: << I have a copy of an article regarding PRR cabin cars by Robert Johnson & Gary Rauch, from an old (date unknown) Keystone. >> It's Dec. 1973, volume 6, No.4. I've got a copy of the same story. The most important feature of it is the roster. The text, however, raises more questions than it answers. What I'm looking for is a March 1976 story on the NC, NE and NEA class cabin cars -- Were the NC, withits smaller, wooden N5-style cupola and the NE, with the slant-sided N6B cupola, that were rebuilt into the N6 class, cast offs from Lines East which at the time was receiving brand new, all-steel N5 cabins. -- How many of the NBA, NC, NE and NEA bobbers were rebuilt into N6 class cabin cars? How many N6A cabins were originally built? How many N6B cabins? When did the original classes of bobbers go into service? At what rate were N6 cabins retired? When was the last N6B taken out of service. -- What were the reasons for the differing designs? -- Rebuilding the bodies of all four bobber classes to fit the new, longer steel frame required the addition of 7' 8-3/4" t'o the body. The easiest way to do this was to add on to one end, thus making the centered bobber cupola offset on the finished N6-class cabin. Does a centered N6B cupola mean that it was built new later in the building program? -- In his "PRR Color Guide to Passenger & Frieght Equipment," author Ian Fischer states that the wide "Lines West" cupolas on the N6A were rebuilt and the cars redesignated N6B. Why? -- In 1914, when the Lines East began building the N5 and Lines West began rebuilding bobbers into the N6 Class, Lines East and Lines West were operated as separate railroads, with their own traffic department, superintendnet of motive power, master car builders and other techniocal and administrative staff. Consolidation of PRR operations began in 1913 and was complete 1923 the The Pennsyllvania Co. ceased being the operator of the Pittsburgh, Fort Wanye & Chicago Ralway Co., becoming solely a holding company for PRR Co. assets. A story on the single car class N4 cabin in the December 1995 Model Railroad states that it was renumbered twice, once in the mid1920s and then, again, when it entered M-O-W service in the 1940s. Were all PRR cabin cars renumbered in the mid 1920s? If so, is there a roster of the earlier car numbers? --Did any other railroad use the N6-class design new? To what roads did the PRR Co. sell used N6 cabins to? I don't expect you to have all these answers but I hope someone out there does. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: early cabin cars Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:05:33 -0500 Content-Length: 1012 I recall reading somewhere that the crews liked the roominess of the N6A cupola. Don't know about the clearance issue on Lines East (seems logical), but, even though I believe the PRR was heavily weighted traffic-wise to the East, a check of the numbers of the N6A would tell why N6B's were used system wide. Don't have my references to hand, but I believe the quantities of N6A were even smaller than the East/West traffic ratios would indicate. Also, again without my references to hand, weren't N6A's scrapped earlier? If the wider cupolas were desirable, a good question would be why N6A disappeared before the N6B in the West. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:05:06 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: Early cabin cars Content-Length: 615 Hi All, Joe Gotaskie wrote: > > The N6A's cupola was centered... At least one N6A, #981131, had an offset cupola. Also, the plans in "Cabin Cars of the PRR and LI RR's" show an offset cupola on the N6A. Thanks, Ron. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: "KC" Location Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 12:13:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1595 Since changing server software a few days ago, I have received numerous reports that people cannot get to the site. One said they "found the new site" and that I "should have put a link from the old site to the new one". Actually, the site didn't move. However, I think I know the source of this problem. Originally, "KC" was at http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad . Many of you probably bookmarked this location. Many months ago, to make the URL simpler, a "virtual host" was created. The site was relocated to a simpler directory and URL... http://prr.dsop.com . The old URL still worked, via an "alias" of the new directory. The new server software does not support "aliasing" (yet), so those of you with the real old bookmarks could not access the site. In summary, the site did not move recently. However, only the URL http://prr.dsop.com will work. Please delete old bookmarks and relink to the current address. Hope this helps all who could not connect. 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 12:19:46 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2386 Subject: Re: Early cabin cars In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Sep 97 04:07:24 EDT." <199709260807.EAA29306@tikehau.netreach.net> -------- Just looked at an article on wod frame bobbers in the 3/76 keystone. It makes mention of class NE & NEa. The NE had the wide N6a cupola and the NEa had the N6b narrow coupola. It is mentioned that both of these caboose classes were Lines West only. (Lines east & west used NC's which have the ND style low cuploa) The "wide Lines West" cupola was used because it was roomy and was used everywhere on Lines West except for the Pittsburg (thats how it's spelled in the article) division (from Pittsburgh, Pa to Columbus, Oh on the C.I & StL.) where the NEa's were used due to clearance restrictions in the many (10) tunnels. >From the presentation at the convention I seem to remember that Ohio passed some law prohibiting 4 wheel cabins (I think that cabins had to be over a certain length) prompting the PRR to rebuild the bobbers into N6's. The NE's became N6a's and NEa's became N6b's by splicing in a new section somewhere between the coupola and one end, causing the off centered cupolas. I thought that the N6a's cupolas were offset. I can't remember now if the N6b's with centered cupolas were built new, had body sections added on both sides of the cupola or were class NC's with new cupolas built to replace the very low ones. Does anyone know the answer? The N6b's with centered cupolas had longer cupolas (or did I get this backwards.) Rob ------------------------------ I have a copy of an article regarding PRR cabin cars by Robert Johnson & Gary Rauch, from an old (date unknown) Keystone. It specifies that the N6A had the wide cupola and the N6B a narrow cupola. The N6A's cupola was centered while the standard N6B was offset (some were built centered). Both cabin classes were adopted by Lines West in 1914. Nothing was mentioned in the article why they were built that way. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Harrisburg Div Maps Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:20:13 EDT Content-Length: 728 Thanks to John Cooper's editing, I have now been able to complete the collection of PRR Harrisburg Division interlocking maps. You may find them at the usual location, http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/ As usual, access after 5 PM is preferred. The maps include full maps of Enola yard. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: LAST CALL -- RAILFEST EXCURSION RESERVATIONS !!!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 13:14:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1503 Last week I posted a form for RailFest attendees to mail back to me for the purpose of creating name tags, reserving a spot for dinner, and reserving a group seat on the train. I believe I gave a deadline of Wednesday, October 1 to e-mail me with this info. While that works for me, I need to move up the deadline for the train reservation. The 1:30 excursion is sold out! If you HAVE NOT sent your form back and you have tickets for the excursion, please e-mail the form to me at "jerry@dsop.com" this weekend. I must give a count to the museum on Monday. If you HAVE sent your form back...do nothing. You are counted. If you miss this deadline, you will still have until Wednesday to reply in order to get a "PRR-Talk" nametag and reserve a spot for dinner. If you do not reply and do locate the group on-site, we will attempt to accomodate you for dinner, if possible. Thank you. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:46:43 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 1214 Jerry wrote: > > I won't discount your theory, but I do have two sources that show it > as "Elbert H. Gary". Nothing I'm gonna lose sleep over, however. Jerry did not list his references, so I'll throw in one more: Wm. Kratville's _Passenger Car Catalog_, pages 12 & 13, shows a 14 Section car, Plan 3958-A, Lot 6376, built 1930, named Elbert H. Gary, assigned to the PRR. The same reference also shows a PRR-assigned Parlor Car, 28 Seats-1 Drawing Room, Plan 3416, Lot 4864, built 1924, named "Elbridge Gerry," one of 15 similar assigned to PRR. Both cars appear in the _Pullman Company List of Cars_ for 1937 and 1950. "Elbert H. Gary" is listed as "in government storage" in the 1961 _Pullman Company List of Cars_, the last such issued. "Elbridge Gerry" is not in this last book. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PS14 Heavyweights Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 14:46:47 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1669 On 9/26/97 8:36 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >Further research confuses me too. An additional search with Lycos uncovered >the fact that the president of U.S.Steel at the turn of the Century was >named >"Elbert Gary" (middle initial unknown). Since the cars were originally >built >early in the 20th century, he may have been dead by then, and therefore a >candidate for a Pullman car name (very few living people were ever so >recognized). But I believe the car was named for the Mass Gov. I will have >to research this in my library this week end. The fact that you found a source that has this name associated with U.S. Steel leads me to believe my initial data was correct. The PRR did, on more than one occasion, renamed fleets of passenger cars after Pennsylvania businessmen. The last such action was, I believe, in the late 40's or early 50's, when a whole fleet of cars was renamed for use on "The Pittsburgher". I don't have the data with me, but I do recall one of the cars being named after "John Heinz". --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:26:19 -0400 (EDT) From: BEMIDJIAN@aol.com Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 1139 Greetings Quiet afternoon allows some searching on the Gary question. Checking the index of a few appropriate books I find in "America's Sixty Families" by Ferdinand Lundberg an entry for Elbert H. Gary, board chairman of United States Steel in the Teens and manipulator at the convention that nominated Harding. I know he died while there were still prominent Wobblies around, probably in the early Twenties, including one who coined for Gary the funniest epitaph of all time: "He never saw a blast furnace until he died." Considering the volume of traffic provided the PRR by USS, I suspect that a Pullman would certainly be named for him. He is also the namesake of the city in Indiana and the old steelmill suburb of Duluth Dave Umhauer ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:00:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Mainline Content-Length: 679 When the Pennsylvania State Legislature authorized a "mainline of transportation facilities" (railroads, canals, roads) in the 1840s? does anyone know if the was the origin of the term "Mainline" as used in railroads? Also, could this have influenced the use of the term "Main Street"? Harold ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:37:33 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: distances: the conspiracy Content-Length: 916 >The most significant thing for me is that for many years >millions of passengers rode what was probably half a mile >less than what their public timetables told them. > >I wonder what figure was used for computing train crews' >pay? > >John Bobsin At last! The Dark Secret is revealed! Figure - how many? - millions of passengers x 1/2, or 1, or 5 miles x $.025 a mile standard rates: we are talking mucho buckolas here, Gringo! Puts a whole sinister new slant on the P-C bankruptcy. Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:52:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Scottcamer@aol.com Subject: E-mail address change Content-Length: 629 For thoes of you that had my old E-mail address. Here is my new address. Since I changed jobs after 12 years, I had to get a new address.. Address is: ScottCamer Thanks a lot Scott Cameron Frederick, MD Former Summerhill Pa native ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: early cabin cars Content-Length: 2598 In a message dated 97-09-27 07:47:54 EDT, you write: << Also, again without my references to hand, weren't N6A's scrapped earlier? If the wider cupolas were desirable, a good question would be why N6A disappeared before the N6B in the West. >> On page 105 of PRR Color Guide to P[assenger & Freight Equipment, author Ian Fischer writes in a caption to a photo of N6B #981801 "Most of the NBA, NC, NE and NEA four-wheel cabin cars rebuilt as eight-wheel cars during 1914-1923 were turned out as class N6A, but during the late 1930s and early 1940s, were rebuilt as class N6B...." In 1914 the PRR was operated as two separate railroads, Lines East controlled by Broad Street and Lines West controlled by The Pennsylvania Co., a wholly-owned subsidiary headquartered in Pittsburgh. The "P" Company's President was a senior PRR corporate vice president. From 1872 to 1923 the Pennsylvania Co. directly operated the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway "The Fort Wayne System," and oversaw operations and appointed senior management of the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad, "The Panhandle Route," headquartered in Columbus. Lines West lines of authority were serparate from Lines East. It had its own superintendent of notive power, master car builder, traffic dept., etc. Until consolidation of PRR operations 1913-1923, Lines West wrote its own specs for motive power, rolling stock, that differed, usually in detail, from Lines East. As Lines West began the rebuilding program, Lines East began buildin a wholly-new design, the N5, the first all-steel cabin car. What I'm trying to confirm is that the NC, with a small, wooden N5-style cuopla, and the NE with its Slant-sided N6B-style cupola, were Lines East bobbers sent west for rebuilding as its new N5 cabins came on line. I'd like to confirm the systemwide renumbering of all cabin cars after consolidation of operations was complete in 1923. While in 1957 N5 and N6 cabins could be found systemwide, more than half of each class was still assigned to the regions that had built them: N5 cabins in regions that been part of Lines East, N6 cabins in the regions of Lines West. Tom V ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:59:16 -0400 From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 1882 Judge Gary did have a city named for him. Gary Indiana. The site of a new (as of 1908?) and HUGE US Steel plant. Since the Pennsy carried a lot of US STEEL products, this name would not be suprising. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --- Stephen Bartlett wrote: > Jerry did not list his references, so I'll throw in one more: > Wm. Kratville's _Passenger Car Catalog_, pages 12 & 13, shows a 14 > Section car, Plan 3958-A, Lot 6376, built 1930, named Elbert H. Gary, > assigned to the PRR. > > The same reference also shows a PRR-assigned Parlor Car, 28 Seats-1 > Drawing Room, Plan 3416, Lot 4864, built 1924, named "Elbridge Gerry," > one of 15 similar assigned to PRR. > > Both cars appear in the _Pullman Company List of Cars_ for 1937 and > 1950. "Elbert H. Gary" is listed as "in government storage" in the > 1961 > _Pullman Company List of Cars_, the last such issued. "Elbridge Gerry" > is not in this last book. > > Steve Bartlett > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 08:43:06 -0400 Content-Length: 891 Alright, alright. I was wrong. I checked several sources in my library, this weekend, Including Wayner, Kratville, and the Pulman list of cars for 1950. The 14 sec Pullman ws ELBERT H. GARY, named for the president of U.S.Steel. ELBRIDGE H.GERRY was a 28-1 parlor assigned to the PRR. Named for the Massachusetts Congressman and Governor who was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, it ran in the Boston-Washington trains. regards Andy Miller (who may occasionally be wrong agian) ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:39:39 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 757 To all embarassed SPFs and assorted lurkers: Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday toooo you. Happy Birthday, fossilized PRRT&HS web site, Happy birthday too you. I guess it was too much to hope that the PRRT&HS would have updated is web site before it was a year old. It's enough to make me want to go to Lancaster nex April to speak out at the convention. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:00:06 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 1497 Aloha Tom How about your helping out with the web page. If I could I would. As to next April I think it would be a good idea to encourage greater use by the society. I probably can't attend but as a member I will provide a proxy if necessary to increase Web use. Thanks, Eric LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > To all embarassed SPFs and assorted lurkers: > > Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday toooo you. Happy Birthday, > fossilized > PRRT&HS web site, Happy birthday too you. > > I guess it was too much to hope that the PRRT&HS would have updated is > web > site before it was a year old. It's enough to make me want to go to > Lancaster > nex April to speak out at the convention. > > Tom V. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:23:02 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 914 >I guess it was too much to hope that the PRRT&HS would have updated is web >site before it was a year old. It's enough to make me want to go to Lancaster >next April to speak out at the convention. > >Tom V. Aww, why do that, Tom? Why not just leave sleeping dogs lie and see how long it goes before it eventually gets changed or dropped. If present performance is any clue, it could become one of the derisive legends of model railroading! Hay, get your publicity any way you can! Bob Those Classic Trains ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 19:24:50 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1564 On 9/29/97 6:00 PM, Eric J. Minton (eminton@hula.net) wrote: >How about your helping out with the web page. If I could I would. As to >next April I think it would be a good idea to encourage greater use by >the society. I probably can't attend but as a member I will provide a >proxy if necessary to increase Web use. > >Thanks, >Eric > >LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > >> To all embarassed SPFs and assorted lurkers: >> >> Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday toooo you. Happy Birthday, >> fossilized >> PRRT&HS web site, Happy birthday too you. >> >> I guess it was too much to hope that the PRRT&HS would have updated is >> web >> site before it was a year old. It's enough to make me want to go to >> Lancaster >> nex April to speak out at the convention. Sure is an embarrassment. Six months ago I volunteered to help but "wasn't needed". It was "under control". Of course now I am too busy with my own site. Too bad for the PRRT&HS. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:07:17 -0400 Content-Length: 2390 Perhaps the PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page will merge with an NYC page and disappear altogether! Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: Jerry > To: nobody@maranatha.net > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page > Date: Monday, September 29, 1997 7:24 PM > > On 9/29/97 6:00 PM, Eric J. Minton (eminton@hula.net) wrote: > > >How about your helping out with the web page. If I could I would. As to > >next April I think it would be a good idea to encourage greater use by > >the society. I probably can't attend but as a member I will provide a > >proxy if necessary to increase Web use. > > > >Thanks, > >Eric > > > >LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > > >> To all embarassed SPFs and assorted lurkers: > >> > >> Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday toooo you. Happy Birthday, > >> fossilized > >> PRRT&HS web site, Happy birthday too you. > >> > >> I guess it was too much to hope that the PRRT&HS would have updated is > >> web > >> site before it was a year old. It's enough to make me want to go to > >> Lancaster > >> nex April to speak out at the convention. > > Sure is an embarrassment. > > Six months ago I volunteered to help but "wasn't needed". It was "under > control". Of course now I am too busy with my own site. Too bad for the > PRRT&HS. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". > Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! > ------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:24:55 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Web Page Content-Length: 1115 Hello all... Hmmmm...seeing this talk about the PRR T&HS page...Yes something should be done with it...If who ever is in charge of it can't keep it upgraded then they should at least turn it over to someone else...they could get the info,back-ups and such and continue it... hmmm perhaps Jerry would like the honors...or maybe Mark B. It seems sometimes we have adopted their pages because of this shortcoming. I recently saw the page for the C&O folks and they have a very nice, well run site...(from what i could tell) With all the interest in the PRR out there it deserves to have a well organized and run site. just my two-cents worth.... H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:31:47 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 1446 Tom V. wrote: >I guess it was too much to hope that the PRRT&HS would have updated is >web site before it was a year old. It's enough to make me want to go to >Lancaster next April to speak out at the convention. ------------------------------------------- That just makes the PRRTHS look s----d, but does not cost me anything. On the other hand, did anyone else order the book, __Pennsylvania Railroad Classic Heavyweight Pullmans_, back in 1990-91-92? It was advertised in a prepublication offer, via a commercial advertisement in the mailings of the non-profit PRRT&HS, by "B&T Publications." That's (Charles) Blardone and (Peter) Tilp. No book ever was published, and despite offers of a refund, also made in the mailings of the PRRT&HS, I was unable to obtain one. Mr Tilp is not too visible, but Mr. Blardone is still going his merry way with various offerings of items for sale. I do keep renewing my membership; the "Keystone" is excellent. However, I don't send Mr. Blardone any more money. Steve Bartlett ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:48:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 684 > Six months ago I volunteered to help but "wasn't needed". It was "under > control". Of course now I am too busy with my own site. Too bad for the > PRRT&HS. Hell, if I knew who to volunteer to I'd volunteer. I don't have the time but I don't really have the time to do anything I do. -D ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bearpair@erols.com Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:12:45 -0400 Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 1235 Jerry wrote: > snip > > Sure is an embarrassment. > > Six months ago I volunteered to help but "wasn't needed". It was "under > control". Of course now I am too busy with my own site. Too bad for the > PRRT&HS. > Same thing happened to me and the B&RRHS - I offered to design and maintain a page, with support from people within the organization for information and answers, and was ALSO told "we have a group studying it - it'll be up by early summer". That was in March of this year. Still no page that I'M aware of - heck, the SENTINEL is almost half a year behind schedule - even after going from bimonthly to quarterly! I dunno - seems to me that the 'good ol' boys' clique crap is killing a lot of good organizations and driving a lot of interested people away. Mike Calo http://www.geocities.com/~navpooh/rrpage.html ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bearpair@erols.com Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:14:52 -0400 Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page - PRR/NYC Content-Length: 627 Harry W. Fitch IV wrote: > > Perhaps the PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page > will merge with an NYC page and disappear altogether! Nah - the PC fans have an ACTIVE website at http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/pc/ Hmmmm....history DOES repeat itself! ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Web Page Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:46:42 -0400 Content-Length: 752 The C&O boys did their homework. Check it out at: http://cohs.marshall.edu/ Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ********************************************************* > I recently saw the page for the C&O folks and they have a very nice, > well run site...(from what i could tell) H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:54:52 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 1049 In a message dated 97-09-29 18:07:07 EDT, you write: << How about your helping out with the web page. If I could I would. As to next April I think it would be a good idea to encourage greater use by the society. I probably can't attend but as a member I will provide a proxy if necessary to increase Web use. >> The solution is a simple one. Instead of reinventing the wheel, it might be more sound to designate one or all of the existing unofficial PRR websites as being "PRRT&HS approved" websites. This would allow those who are interested to continue what they're doing well and take a ewsponibility off the shoulders of the leadership. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 8:20:56 EDT Content-Length: 947 > Aloha Tom > > How about your helping out with the web page. If I could I would. As to > next April I think it would be a good idea to encourage greater use by > the society. I probably can't attend but as a member I will provide a > proxy if necessary to increase Web use. I was at the PRRTHS convention in Harrisburg last year. Few people knew that there was a web site. Often the comment I heard was "huh? web?" We who are talking about it are the ones who would use it. I offered to help from day 1 but have heard zero, zilch, nada. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dan Cupper" Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:31:59 +0000 Subject: B&T publications, Pullman book, etc. Content-Length: 1170 Regarding Chuck Blardone's participation in the heavyweight Pullman car book project, it should be noted that Chuck withdrew from the partnership after the delays and other issues began to mount up in a way that was unacceptable to him. At that point, according to him, Peter Tilp requested that he return to the project not as an investor but as a "hired" contractor or consultant, an arrangement to which he consented. As someone already has noted, nothing has been produced to date, but it is not because of him. Anyone who has seen the amount of work he has gone through to produce a Keystone knows that he is responsible and production oriented. Chuck is an honest man and someone needs to say so. I am doing so now. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Romans 10:9 ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 08:50:12 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2425 On 9/30/97 8:20 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >I was at the PRRTHS convention in Harrisburg last year. Few people knew >that there was a web site. Often the comment I heard was "huh? web?" IMHO, the PRRTHS convention needs an Internet demo...not just of "our" web sites, but of the whole concept. I've only been a member less than a year, so I can't "really" bitch. "The Keystone" is a first-class publication. As for the convention, I've never been to one. 1998 will be my first. I am hereby offering my services to the powers that be that I am willing to do an Internet demo. I sold computers for many years and did many formal presentations. I also was founder and prez of a computer user group for many users. I am used to speaking to large groups. Spread the word...have a convention organizer contact me. (I don't have the time nor the inclination to chase them down.) > >We who are talking about it are the ones who would use it. I offered to >help from day 1 but have heard zero, zilch, nada. Those of us on PRR-talk probably wouldn't use it that much. Mark, myself, and several others already have nice sites with their own areas of expertise. Our benefit of a good PRRTHS site would be that if it were general, with pointers to our sites, it would draw in "newbies" to the net and to the PRRTHS, as well as fans of other roads. It would bring more people into "PRR-Talk" and draw larger crowds to our web sites. I don't think the PRRTHS site would ever become our favorite hangout...just a jumping point for folks to get to us. Currently it is not. RELATED: The Conrail HS didn't have a mailing list. I offered to host it. I now run the list and they updated their Web page. New users now come both ways. List people find the CTS site and vice versa. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 9:00:08 EDT Content-Length: 1547 > Those of us on PRR-talk probably wouldn't use it that much. Mark, myself, > and several others already have nice sites with their own areas of > expertise. > > Our benefit of a good PRRTHS site would be that if it were general, with > pointers to our sites, it would draw in "newbies" to the net and to the > PRRTHS, as well as fans of other roads. It would bring more people into > "PRR-Talk" and draw larger crowds to our web sites. Jerry, this was _exactly_ what I was talking about, about 6 months back, when I proposed that you and I and whoever else was interested prepare a "PRR Web Index to End All Indices". You and I and whoever else would mirror the One And Only Index on our sites, as our only index, or in parallel with our own custom indices. Thus, from one location, PRR info-seekers would find all relevant PRR items. > I don't think the PRRTHS site would ever become our favorite > hangout...just a jumping point Exactly. This Alpha and Omega Index (oops .. am I getting a bit too pretentious?? :-) ) could be the only item on rrhistorical.com, or would not necessarily have to be there at all. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRRT&HS Web Page From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 09:10:18 -0400 Content-Length: 1794 Two thoughts occur to me: one technical (and good), and one political (and bad) 1. Web technology provides the ideal vehicle for community participation in a society product. If the PRRT&HS would layout the format and specify the nature of the parts, volunteers could be found to maintain the information and links could be established to privatly maintained sub-pages. The society, or its few volunteers would not have to maintain one large monolithic entity. 2. Perhaps the society is AFRAID of a good web page!. They derive no revenue from it (except for the opportunity to sell books, t-shirts, and coffee mugs), and since most people join for the Keystone and its historic technical content, a good web page could provide most of that and cost the society some membership! Some folks might get all they need from a good web page. If done right it could become an encyclipedia of the PRR. Some people might therefore see no reason to come up with the dues necessary to join. A solution to this might be to restrict printing privaleges to registered members. Anyone may browse the page, and it would remain a great advertisement for the capability and value of the society; but if you want a printed copy of some table, photo, or drawing, you HAVE TO JOIN. Part of the membership application record would be the IP address of the member. regards Andy Miller ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:25:25 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: PRRT&HS Web Site Content-Length: 666 Well, well... Fallen Flags and now a Widowed Web Site. Gee, for all the study and remembrance of the PRR, still forgetting the lesson of neglected maintenance. How about a PRR/NYC/PC/CONRAIL. And as the train moves out of sight and the smoke drifts away... Ta Ta Tom Mahon ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRRT&HS Web Page Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 09:29:45 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2703 On 9/30/97 9:10 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mail11.mitre.org) wrote: >2. Perhaps the society is AFRAID of a good web page!. They derive no >revenue >from it (except for the opportunity to sell books, t-shirts, and coffee >mugs), >and since most people join for the Keystone and its historic technical >content, a good web page could provide most of that and cost the society >some >membership! Some folks might get all they need from a good web page. If >done >right it could become an encyclipedia of the PRR. Some people might >therefore >see no reason to come up with the dues necessary to join. My goal, though it will take years, IS to make "Keystone Crossings" an "encyclopedia of the PRR". So, yes, I am producing what the PRRTHS might fear. Therefore, I am not a good candidate to volunteer to the society as there may be a conflict of interest. However, as long as "The Keystone" comes in its present quality, I, for one, will never not renew based on the availability of information from the net. This is a first-rate publication. > A solution to this might be to restrict printing privaleges to >registered >members. Anyone may browse the page, and it would remain a great >advertisement for the capability and value of the society; but if you want a >printed copy of some table, photo, or drawing, you HAVE TO JOIN. Part of the >membership application record would be the IP address of the member. Unless you know some HTML wizardry that I am unaware of, there is no way to restrict printing of Web pages. Once you view a web page, you have all you need for printing. Even the sites that make their text un-cut and pastable, there are quick ways around this ! Acrobat PDF, however, is another story! You can prevent printing from a PDF, or require a password. Another approach is to have free materials online as a "teaser". Those that pay enter a password and can see a lot more. This is pretty easy to do on the server side. These are just comments, not an advocation of such a method of distribution. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: PRRT&HS Web Page (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 9:40:10 EDT Content-Length: 3543 > Two thoughts occur to me: one technical (and good), and one political (and > bad) > 1. Web technology provides the ideal vehicle for community participation in > a society product. If the PRRT&HS would layout the format and specify the > nature of the parts, volunteers could be found to maintain the information > and links could be established to privatly maintained sub-pages. The > society, or its few volunteers would not have to maintain one large > monolithic entity. Exactly. This was the idea behind what I just wrote about with regard to The Last Pennsy Index You'll Ever Need, and my thoughts from 6 months ago on this topic. > 2. Perhaps the society is AFRAID of a good web page!. I doubt it. I think most people in the society have no idea what it is. (NOT an insult, just my opinion of what the fact probably is) > They derive no revenue > from it (except for the opportunity to sell books, t-shirts, and coffee > mugs), and since most people join for the Keystone and its historic technical > content, a good web page could provide most of that and cost the society some > membership! True, maybe. Probably not. The view may well be taken, but is short-sighted if it is. > Some folks might get all they need from a good web page. If done > right it could become an encyclipedia of the PRR. Some people might > therefore see no reason to come up with the dues necessary to join. Some of this I wrote to Jerry in private email. My comments included: 1) A web page will never be able to reproduce the entire _Keystone_, particularly not the images, not for another decade or 2. Too costly. Possibly too costly forever in terms of time required to do the job. 2) Thus, only a porton of the _Keystone_ would be reproduced. The short-sightedness I referred to is as follows: 3) The web page would be a great ad tool. Put _some_ stuff on that page, keep the "meat" in the _Keystone_, which you have to buy. Put the _KEystone_ on a CDROM, which you have to buy. Lots of possibilities here. ANd you bring up an excellent point: > A solution to this might be to restrict printing privaleges to registered > members. Anyone may browse the page, and it would remain a great > advertisement for the capability and value of the society; but if you want a > printed copy of some table, photo, or drawing, you HAVE TO JOIN. Can't do that (browsers aren't designed that way), but you _could_ restrict a site or portions thereof to registered members. > Part of the membership application record would be the IP address of > the member. And punish UNIX users who can sit on one machine, log in to a second machine, have the second machine check their login id and password from a master list on a 3rd machine (backed up on a 4th machine), start Netscape on a 5th machine, but have Netscape send its display to a 6th machine? Which IP address do you want to use? :-) :-) :-) Wintel, eat your heart out. (Speaking of which, has everyone heard the Bill Gates at the Pearly Gates, "that was only the demo version" joke?) -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: RE: PRRT&HS Web Page (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 9:43:07 EDT Content-Length: 877 > My goal, though it will take years, IS to make "Keystone Crossings" an > "encyclopedia of the PRR". So, yes, I am producing what the PRRTHS might > fear. Therefore, I am not a good candidate to volunteer to the society as > there may be a conflict of interest. Gee, Jerry, I never realized you were a blood-thirsty capitalist! :-))) But you bring up another point that I thought of but forgot to mention. The Web sites will come anyway, whether PRRTHS wants it or not. -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Master Index Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 10:04:59 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2144 On 9/30/97 9:00 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >this was _exactly_ what I was talking about, about 6 months back, when I >proposed that you and I and whoever else was interested prepare a "PRR >Web Index to End All Indices". > >You and I and whoever else would mirror the One And Only Index on our >sites, as our only index, or in parallel with our own custom indices. >Thus, from one location, PRR info-seekers would find all relevant PRR >items. I kinda do this now, though in an incomplete way. Let me explain... My "Arrivals" area is grouped by subjects...motive ops, passenger ops, freight ops, modeling, etc. Under each of these areas I have my own sets of data. However, I also include "Related Sites" which are links to sites containing information I am not providing. For instance... Under "motive ops", in the "electric" section, is a link to Mark's site for his excellent page on "catenary". Under "modeling" is a link to Rob Schoenberg's (sp) page of available decals. Etc., etc., etc. Again, my cross-referencing is incomplete, as it hasn't been a priority to link to sub-pages at other sites. Links to top levels of other sites are via may "Related Sites" page. My index by subject is just a model. Okay, returning to the mirrors of a master index concept. Problem here is that I do not want a "generic" index showing in place of my current default page (which, IMHO, is an attention grabber for new visitors). How do you deal with that? (Besides saying "to hell with Jerry"!) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRRT&HS Web Page (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 10:08:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1373 On 9/30/97 9:43 AM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Gee, Jerry, I never realized you were a blood-thirsty capitalist! :-))) Not so, unless you can "Show me the money!" "Keystone Crossings" is like a genealogy project (which I also do). I collect and share information. It's like a bad habit...I want more, more, more! Okay, I need help! > >But you bring up another point that I thought of but forgot to mention. >The Web sites will come anyway, whether PRRTHS wants it or not. "Master index" or not, it seems that the PRRTHS should AT THE VERY LEAST recognize "worthwhile" PRR sites maintained by PRRTHS members and create very visible links to them. Then the PRRTHS comes off looking like an information provider without doing any of the work!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Web Page Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 10:36:29 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 2758 I think in part that everyone saying that the society is afraid of a web site is probably correct. While they state that their goal is to preserve the memory of the PRR and make information about it available for use (they are a non profit educational organization...) They only seem interested in divying out info if it is profitable to them. The content of the web site isn't a money maker. I have a feeling that the leadership feels that the current site is just fine. In it's present form what incentive is there to updating it? If the page itself didn't state that it would be updated periodically, I probably wouldn't even care. It's a good place for people who haven't heard about the PRRT&HS to find out about it and join up. Most of the second and third time visitors like us who care that it hasn't been updated are probably already members. The restricted access pages are probably a good idea in theory at least. Administration would probably be a pain and rrhistorical doesn't offer the service. Where I think that the society is really missing the boat on the web page is in having a listing of photos that the group has for sale and also a listing of the PRR tracings that the group has and makes copies of. How many people even know that the group has a service to make copies of PRR tracings? The web seems to be a great advertising tool for things like this. No cost printing up catalogs and the group would probably sell more tracings.... I really don't think that the group has all that much to fear about a web site. Yes, some on the info that they put in the Keystone will get given away for free but the PRR was a BIG railroad. There's still plenty of stories to write for the Keystone. Regarding an internet presentation at the next convention, I'm all for it and think it would go over well. At the last convention a friend of mine had his laptop (he's an evil Erie Lackawanna nut) with a CD of 500+ EL slides he's scanned from various people. We were showing it off to people around us off before some of the presentations and most people were pretty amazed (even if it was the wrong railroad) Type in an engine number and there's a photo... Pretty neat. He's working with the ELHS to create a web based archive of some of the group's holdings... Sorry about all the rambling.... Rob ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: RE: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:28:01 -0500 Content-Length: 1934 Steve Bartlett wrote: Yes, they have my money, too. Also, the Middle Division has my money for (thankfully) only one P85BR kit which never materialized. I have probably lost about $200 over 25 years in this hobby with such deals. I consider it a small price to pay to fund the occasional basement or amateur operators in speculative ventures, as long as they don't go and buy a bass boat with the money. However, it is the reason I did not pop for the BP20s which were advertised last year and as I understand it have not arrived. ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:57:44 -0400 (EDT) From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page (fwd) Content-Length: 2622 In a message dated 97-09-30 08:53:22 EDT, you write: << Those of us on PRR-talk probably wouldn't use it that much. Mark, myself, and several others already have nice sites with their own areas of expertise. Our benefit of a good PRRTHS site would be that if it were general, with pointers to our sites, it would draw in "newbies" to the net and to the PRRTHS, as well as fans of other roads. It would bring more people into "PRR-Talk" and draw larger crowds to our web sites. >> Jerry's hitting the nail on the head. I knew about the PRRT&HS and The Keystone for years. It was like there was some spiritual journey that had to be made to before joining the ranks of 'SPF'dom. It wasn't until I visited the web site that I joined,...er,...well, visited the PRRT&HS web site, found other Pennsy sites like Mark Bej's and KC, learned about PRR-Talk, shot my mouth off, felt guilty and joined. A web site is an important contact for newbies and others, especially out here in Lines West territory where there are probably fewer SPFs per sq km than back east. Getting newbies quickly and effectively involved is important for any organization. The one thing that spells the death to any volunteer organization is forgetting that one of the most important activities is keeping the group alive and viable by inviting new and excited people to join. Their energy and committment to a group is never greater than at the point that they decided to change their life and join. New members not only increase the number of shoulders that can be put to the wheel but newby energy invigorates longtime members. Failing to do anything is bad, ignoring them is much worse. This may be the case with afforementioned fossilized website. I wonder about the frustration level of a newby wondering the PRRT&HS will answer their e-mail. I just looked over my last post and now have second thoughts. Like Jerry, I've been a member for less than a year (but just mailed off my 1998 dues). Making such a proposal would probably be seen as a power grab with the likely reaction being a circling of the wagons. I support Jerry's suggested line of thought as more likely resulting in a w/w outcome. Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:05:44 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: PRRT&HS Fossilized Web Page Content-Length: 1596 Aloha Tom, I think your idea below has merit. Sort of how the NMRA is doing their pages. Again I don't expect to be able to attend the annual meeting so I need to support by proxy. My only opportunity to go off island in the next 12 month is Canada in October and July. This first trip will let me do some rail, not PRR (:-( as I will be taking the coast starlighter and the Mount Baker from LAX to BVC as a delegate to a union trust fund function. Eric LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-09-29 18:07:07 EDT, you write: > > << How about your helping out with the web page. If I could I would. > As to > next April I think it would be a good idea to encourage greater use > by > the society. I probably can't attend but as a member I will provide a > > proxy if necessary to increase Web use. > > >> > The solution is a simple one. Instead of reinventing the wheel, it > might be > more sound to designate one or all of the existing unofficial PRR > websites as > being "PRRT&HS approved" websites. This would allow those who are > interested > to continue what they're doing well and take a ewsponibility off the > shoulders of the leadership. > > Tom V. ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:31:46 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: PS14 Heavyweights Content-Length: 2537 Greetings to Jerry and group, I wasn't able to find out which of the cars were assigned to the Liberty Limited. However was able to find out a few of them that weren't. This information was gleemed from PRR's _Make-up of Trains New York Division #19 April 29, 1950_. Hope it's helpful. Andrew Carnegie trains 48/49 General/Trail Blazer Andrew Squire trains 48/49 General/Trail Blazer Bartholomew Penrose Cyrus H. McCormick David Sinton Elbert H. Gary George Rogers Clark trains 30/31 Sprit of St Louis Henry Watterson trains 30/31 Sprit of St Louis Marcus A. Hanna Potter Palmer Salmon P. Chase trains 30/31 Sprit of St Louis Thomas A. Hendricks Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 01:17 PM 9/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >In recent days we have discussed the heavyweight 14 section (PS14) cars >in use in consist lists in 1943, 1945, and as late as 1953. > >There were twelve such cars among the fleet of "betterment" cars that >were streamlined for use in the "Fleet of Modernism" in 1938-39. Only the >Broadway Limited had entirely new cars. > >The 14 section car was Pullman Standard plan 3958A and the cars had the >following names: > Andrew Carnegie > Andrew Squire > Bartholomew Penrose > Cyrus H. McCormick > David Sinton > Elbert H. Gary > George Rogers Clark > Henry Watterson > Marcus A. Hanna > Potter Palmer > Salmon P. Chase > Thomas A. Hendricks > >If anyone knows which of these was specifically assigned to the Liberty >Limited, please let me know. Thanks. > >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". >Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! >------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:16:08 EDT Content-Length: 1671 I said: > >You and I and whoever else would mirror the One And Only Index on our > >sites, as our only index, or in parallel with our own custom indices. > >Thus, from one location, PRR info-seekers would find all relevant PRR > >items. > Okay, returning to the mirrors of a master index concept. Problem here is > that I do not want a "generic" index showing in place of my current > default page (which, IMHO, is an attention grabber for new visitors). But you note I didn't say that the generic index would have to be your own index. Only that the generic index would be mirrored on our sites. Or perhaps the generic index should be the (possibly only) item provided by the PRRTHS...? > How do you deal with that? (Besides saying "to hell with Jerry"!) Well, the latter feels pretty good, can I say it anyway? :-)))) But seriously, my feeling is that what we are all doing here is similar to what museums do. The primary job of a museum is to increase and _ease_ access. I don't like museums (musea? :-) that say "Oh, well, we have Brontosaurus and Tyrannosaurus Rex, but we don't have Stegosaurus. We don't know who _does_ have one [when they sure as hell do] but here's a list of other museums in the US that have dinosaur bones ..." -- Mark ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:36:56 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: PRR T&HS and web pages Content-Length: 2114 Hello all... Here is a thought. I think both the PRR T&HS and folks with excellent PRR web sites can co-exist...there is so much info and history on the PRR and related roads that no one site could ever extentsively cover all the documents, rosters,employee records and other info that is out there. Perhaps the PRR T &HS could endorse appropriate sites that would enhance what the PRR T&HS is all about and still provide the fan or modeler with what they need.... The PRR T&HS i think even with competetion from PRR sites will still go on.... you will always need folks to do restoration work and folks for cataloging the info and artifacts out there...and there will documents and artifacts found and restored over the years... computer sites cannot do this.... there will always be a physical need for folks and a organization such as the PRR T &HS. As has been said...perhaps the PRR T&HS can have a general site (updated from time to time ,but maybe it would'nt have to be done every month)to give a general idea what they are about and a little info on the PRR...Then also give good credible links to more specific sites if newbies and old hands need it.nothing is worse than to discourage and bore folks,a group cannot grow and carry out the objectives of such if there is no interest or new ideas... Ironicly PRR Talk is an example of such...we are here with ideas on how to better The PRR T &HS site,how PRR sites could be handled,this is how things get done sometimes.... well enough of my "Two Cents worth" please excuse any spelling errors...LOL H.Mummert ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:50:54 -0400 (EDT) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: PRRT&HS Content-Length: 1848 For all the discussion of the PRRT&HS on this list server it should be obvious to all that "Management" of the society is NOT on line or on this list. From the "address" of the site rrhistorical.com - sponsored by Ribbon Rail Productions - it is obvious that the society was offered space - most likely FREE space - and once the offer was accepted - contract signed - materials MOST LIKELY MAILED - the item was checked off the "TO DO" list of the board of trustees - who are also volunteers and likely have have PLENTY to do and decide at their QUARTERLY meetings and figure that this item is now "been there done that" I think it would be really great to have this page updated and to have all the cross links - computer demo - Keystone Crossings room etc at the convention BUT you COMPUTER guys have to realize that - THEY CAN'T HEAR YOU ! - NOTE that there are no click through e-mail addresses anywhere on the site ! If you want to get something done it will be necessary to do so with a postage stamp to JAMES J. D. LYNCH (National Secretary) P. O. Box 389 Upper Darby PA 19082 Even though the Society does not seem to be responding ALL these guys have it's best interests at heart and SHOULD leap at a demo offer of help or recruitment opportunity. By the way - i own a typewriter and would be willing to serve as "liason" from the list to the Society - via snail mail telephone and fax ! Dick Ross Cleveland ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Master Index (fwd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 97 19:21:44 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 978 On 9/30/97 3:16 PM, Mark D Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: >Or perhaps the generic index should be the (possibly only) item provided >by the PRRTHS...? I think this is the ticket. Have the main page link to the six or so largest PRR sites of MEMBERS OF THE SOCIETY and mention PRR-Talk. Have a sub-page that is a master index of the sub-pages of those and other sites. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: To the PRR-Talk group concerning the PRRT&HS web site. Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:37:06 -0400 Content-Length: 4347 To the PRR-Talk group concerning the PRRT&HS web site. This is an e-mail that I received from Dan Dawdy who has the Cyberspace World Railroad web page and who through his Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing, hosts the PRRT&HS web site. If some of this does not make sense, it may be because it is part of an e-mail dialogue between Dan Dawdy and myself. This all started when I made a goof-up and sent mail to Dan (as webmaster) rather than to the PRRT&HS web site. Please give Dan's thoughts some mulling over. He has a lot of experience with this sort of situation. (I also have e-mailed Dan intentionally in the past because I like his web site) If you have not seen Cyberspace World Railroad, then check it out at - http://www.mcs.net/~dsdawdy/cyberoad.html Regards, Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ************************************************** Starting Forward of Dan Dawdy's E-Mail Hi Harry: I thought your name was familiar :-) >My post was meant for the PRR Historical Site >and not for your Cyberspace World Railroad Site. >I truly thought that I was sending e-mail to the >PRRT&HS and not to you. No problem. www.rrhistorical.com is our commercial site and I try to keep it separate from my CWRR. I try and stay out of society politics as it's none of my business. >Technical & Historical site, but their help is refused. >(This is a hot topic among us goofy PRR fans) (editors note: I gave Dan Dawdy some information about folks with the talent, material and willingness to help the PRRT&HS web site to no avail thus far) I have only worked through Geo. Even meet him and his wife as they changed trains here in Chicago. That was just before the site came on line. As I tell all our clients, there is always that fine line of giving away to much on the Web. That is not to say that you can't keep up interest with some newer information from the Keystone or something to keep people checking back. Do you want the site to be for members OR to get members. This is what your group has to decide. If it's for members, what can the Web do better than a magazine? We allow 5 megs of space now and almost anything you want to run, chat rooms, video, members only areas, you get the idea. Any non-profit group pays only $120 a year for that on a commercial server and stable address. We do charge for work on sites but in the case of the PRRT&HS, Geo did most all the HTML. There are many dedicated people who maintain sites of their favorite railroad. The PRR as you know is no exception. My feeling is you need one official site with a stable address. Notice the Soo Line site. We house their main page and information and membership pages. When you switch to their publication, it points to a members server who maintains that part of it and also publishes their magazine. The point here is they can maintain monthly changes without going through us. To most viewers, they don't know the difference. (Well, our servers are much faster :-) >This was in NO way intended for you. Again, no problem. I get a lot of mail to webmaster when it should have gone to the group. The messages you sent have some good points. Again, I am not in a position to get involved but I would give Geo an Email ( Burbageg@aol.com ) and voice your concerns. I do know that there is an update in the works. Everyone wants to build a site but than no one has the time to maintain it, or as I say, you don't want to build a big beast because you always have to feed it. If there is anyway I can help, please let me know. If nothing else, I can explain what we can do for any of our clients. Sincerely, Dan - Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing 319 N. Naperville Road, Suite 348 Bolingbrook, IL 60490 Voice 630.969.7837 - Data 630.960.3046 - dsdawdy@mcs.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: To the PRR-Talk group concerning the PRRT&HS web site. Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:05:20 -0400 Content-Length: 4349 To the PRR-Talk group concerning the PRRT&HS web site. This is an e-mail that I received from Dan Dawdy who has the Cyberspace World Railroad web page and who through his Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing, hosts the PRRT&HS web site. If some of this does not make sense, it may be because it is part of an e-mail dialogue between Dan Dawdy and myself. This all started when I made a goof-up and sent mail to Dan (as webmaster) rather than to the PRRT&HS web site. Please give Dan's thoughts some mulling over. He has a lot of experience with this sort of situation. (I also have e-mailed Dan intentionally in the past because I like his web site) If you have not seen Cyberspace World Railroad, then check it out at - http://www.mcs.net/~dsdawdy/cyberoad.html Regards, Harry W. Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ************************************************** Starting Forward of Dan Dawdy's E-Mail Hi Harry: I thought your name was familiar :-) >My post was meant for the PRR Historical Site >and not for your Cyberspace World Railroad Site. >I truly thought that I was sending e-mail to the >PRRT&HS and not to you. No problem. www.rrhistorical.com is our commercial site and I try to keep it separate from my CWRR. I try and stay out of society politics as it's none of my business. >Technical & Historical site, but their help is refused. >(This is a hot topic among us goofy PRR fans) (editors note: I gave Dan Dawdy some information about folks with the talent, material and willingness to help the PRRT&HS web site to no avail thus far) I have only worked through Geo. Even meet him and his wife as they changed trains here in Chicago. That was just before the site came on line. As I tell all our clients, there is always that fine line of giving away to much on the Web. That is not to say that you can't keep up interest with some newer information from the Keystone or something to keep people checking back. Do you want the site to be for members OR to get members. This is what your group has to decide. If it's for members, what can the Web do better than a magazine? We allow 5 megs of space now and almost anything you want to run, chat rooms, video, members only areas, you get the idea. Any non-profit group pays only $120 a year for that on a commercial server and stable address. We do charge for work on sites but in the case of the PRRT&HS, Geo did most all the HTML. There are many dedicated people who maintain sites of their favorite railroad. The PRR as you know is no exception. My feeling is you need one official site with a stable address. Notice the Soo Line site. We house their main page and information and membership pages. When you switch to their publication, it points to a members server who maintains that part of it and also publishes their magazine. The point here is they can maintain monthly changes without going through us. To most viewers, they don't know the difference. (Well, our servers are much faster :-) >This was in NO way intended for you. Again, no problem. I get a lot of mail to webmaster when it should have gone to the group. The messages you sent have some good points. Again, I am not in a position to get involved but I would give Geo an Email ( Burbageg@aol.com ) and voice your concerns. I do know that there is an update in the works. Everyone wants to build a site but than no one has the time to maintain it, or as I say, you don't want to build a big beast because you always have to feed it. If there is anyway I can help, please let me know. If nothing else, I can explain what we can do for any of our clients. Sincerely, Dan - Ribbon Rail Productions - World Wide Web Publishing 319 N. Naperville Road, Suite 348 Bolingbrook, IL 60490 Voice 630.969.7837 - Data 630.960.3046 - dsdawdy@mcs.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Your ad here supports higher bandwidth for "Keystone Crossings". Contact "sales@dsop.com" for details! ------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!