From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 09:34:17 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 373 In a message dated 97-08-01 09:28:05 EDT, you write: << How about laser cut masking tape! Like a one use stencil! Might work for doing the window band at least... It could be cut to match the striping decal precisely... >> Rob, that's an interesting idea. It'd ddefinitely make life easier for a lot of modelers. Quick, run to a patent attorney. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 01 Aug 97 10:31:34 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 1336 From: TVondruska@aol.com << How about laser cut masking tape! Like a one use stencil! Might work for doing the window band at least... It could be cut to match the striping decal precisely... >> > Rob, that's an interesting idea. Discussed this idea with a vendor last night. Problem is that we are talking about an 85' mask with (not counting the window panel) six very thin gold stripes. Our thought was that, when removed from shipping backing to be applied over the model for masking purposes, the narrow strips of mask (between the exposed to-be-painted gold stripes) would be very succeptible (sp.) to twisting and alignment problems. You might be better off masking the six gold stripes yourself and using a production mask for the window panel only. However, from a marketing standpoint, it wouldn't seem that enough is being accomplished to warrant the product. A one-piece clear decal would be ideal for beginners. An advanced modeler may opt to use only the window panel of the decal and still hand-mask the gold stripes (thus avoiding the large clear decal areas). Food for thought. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 10:39:02 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 448 Jerry: Could the problems which you identified be resolved by making several decals. E.G 1) he drk marron window band in the correct height slightly longer than the maximum needed which could be cut to size; 2) the gold stripes as one decal (these should not be anymore diffficult to align than the 5 stripe diesels; 3) both versions of the letterboard of appropriate width to fit above the window ban. Just a suggestion. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 01 Aug 97 10:52:22 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 2559 I was actually thinking of doing it the other way.... Decal stripes & painted window band... I can't even imagine trying to mask off all those thin stripes.... About the window band being part of the decal and cutting out the window openings.... The Pennsy Retail Research FOM decal instructions call for slitting the decal in an X pattern after it has set. Then you're supposed to rewet the sections over the windows and fold the extra over into the car and use more setting solution to fix it in place. The only caution would be not to use too much setting solution near the windows. A friend decaled a Walthers commuter coach for New Jersey DOT. The cars have a blue window band (like FOM but different color) and on the first side applied a bit too much solution. The decal distorted slightly in one place as it tried to snuggle down into the windows... He went a little lighter on the solution for the second side and it came out great. Guess my point was that the FOM window band can be done as a big decal, just have to be careful about applying it. (Just thinking, a very thin decal like Microscale's might pose more of a problem here...) Just some thoughts.... Rob -original From: TVondruska@aol.com << How about laser cut masking tape! Like a one use stencil! Might work for doing the window band at least... It could be cut to match the striping decal precisely... >> > Rob, that's an interesting idea. Discussed this idea with a vendor last night. Problem is that we are talking about an 85' mask with (not counting the window panel) six very thin gold stripes. Our thought was that, when removed from shipping backing to be applied over the model for masking purposes, the narrow strips of mask (between the exposed to-be-painted gold stripes) would be very succeptible (sp.) to twisting and alignment problems. You might be better off masking the six gold stripes yourself and using a production mask for the window panel only. However, from a marketing standpoint, it wouldn't seem that enough is being accomplished to warrant the product. A one-piece clear decal would be ideal for beginners. An advanced modeler may opt to use only the window panel of the decal and still hand-mask the gold stripes (thus avoiding the large clear decal areas). Food for thought. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 01 Aug 97 10:56:30 UT Subject: Re: New to the PRR talk list Content-Length: 1015 >From: britton@pit-magnus.com >Date: 01 Aug 97 09:13:42 UT >To: Members of group >Subject: Re: New to the PRR talk list > >From: SteamEngine@webtv.net > >> I am Pennsy fan from Canton Ohio,I have a large layout modeled after the >> state of Pennsyvania. My layout is L shaped , it is *** set out *** >Welcome aboard! "Tom V." will be especially glad you're here, as he is in >the "minority" and will welcome another "Lines Westerner"! Well, he is certainly in the minority, but he isn't the only one from 'Lines West'. :-) >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 01 Aug 97 13:49:15 UT Subject: SERVER MAY BE DOWN AM OF 8/2 Content-Length: 1434 Dear constituents of DSOP.COM: I "may" be taking the server down the morning of August 2 for installation of new server software. If this occurs, the server will be taken partially or totally offline between the hours of 8 a.m. and noon, EST. I recommend that you do not send mail to the lists, use FTP, or try to download files via the Web during these hours. Sending individual mails to the domain DSOP.COM will be fine, as will periodically trying to access the Web server. If you try the Web server and it works, I will not mind your using it. Just be forewarned that you may be cut off at any point to enable a reboot. If I proceed with the installation, the following will occur: 1) An upgrade to our router/proxy server addresses a bug which can cause timeouts and failures to FTP connections via slow speeds. 2) Our FTP server will be replaced. User account names and passwords will remain the same. This is another step towards increasing the stability and performance of the server. In the near future I am planning upgrades to the mail and list server. These changes will allow me to run fewer applications than is currently required to provide all of these services. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. Thank you. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, hostmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. hostmaster@dsop.com http://www.dsop.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: wa4bpw@Shelby.Net Date: 01 Aug 97 16:12:18 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 1142 Not to be a stick in the mud and so to speak off track what are we talking about on the CD Rom and how much is it ---------- > From: eminton@hula.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 1:10 AM > > What is Keystone Crossings? As a new participant I am not aware. I enjoy > this Group very much. > Thank You and Aloha. > Eric > > > britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > > Reminder: > > > > Today is the deadline for ordering Volume 1 of "Excerpts from Keystone > > > > Crossings" on CD-ROM. If you still haven't sent a check, do it today > > and > > e-mail me. This weekend I'll post who all I got orders from, so you'll > > be > > able to confirm that I have your order. > > > > Don't fret if you miss this release. Volume 2 (inclusive of Volume 1) > > should > > be announced for December delivery. > > --------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > > Progressive Information Technologies > > britton@pit-magnus.com > > http://www.pit-magnus.com > > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 16:36:16 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 70 Jerry, Sign me up please. Thanks, George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 01 Aug 97 17:02:52 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 1542 See http://prr.dsop.com/cd.html . ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: wa4bpw@Shelby.Net To: Members of group Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Date: 01 Aug 97 16:12:18 UT Not to be a stick in the mud and so to speak off track what are we talking about on the CD Rom and how much is it ---------- > From: eminton@hula.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 1:10 AM > > What is Keystone Crossings? As a new participant I am not aware. I enjoy > this Group very much. > Thank You and Aloha. > Eric > > > britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > > Reminder: > > > > Today is the deadline for ordering Volume 1 of "Excerpts from Keystone > > > > Crossings" on CD-ROM. If you still haven't sent a check, do it today > > and > > e-mail me. This weekend I'll post who all I got orders from, so you'll > > be > > able to confirm that I have your order. > > > > Don't fret if you miss this release. Volume 2 (inclusive of Volume 1) > > should > > be announced for December delivery. > > --------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > > Progressive Information Technologies > > britton@pit-magnus.com > > http://www.pit-magnus.com > > 1 JPEG = 1K words > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 01 Aug 97 17:07:24 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 78 Jerry, Would you repost your mailing address please. Thanks, George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 01 Aug 97 17:23:09 UT Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Content-Length: 925 Since there is a last minute flurry for ordering the CD (http://prr.dsop.com/cd.html), I will extend the ordering date until Tuesday, August 5. That's the date the check needs to be to me...so send it overnight mail if you have to. I do not plan to write extra CD's!!! Send to Jerry Britton, Desktop Solutions, P.O. Box 189, #191, Etters PA 17319-0189. Make payable to "Desktop Solutions" for $30 US. PA residents add $1.80 sales tax. Price includes shipping. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: Eichhorn@aol.com To: Members of group Subject: Re: CD-ROM Order Deadline Date: 01 Aug 97 17:07:24 UT Jerry, Would you repost your mailing address please. Thanks, George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SteamEngine@webtv.net Date: 01 Aug 97 22:31:26 UT Subject: Re: Information on the Fort Wayne System Content-Length: 303 To Tom Vondruska, The system is still Operating .but down to two tracks,and down to one track west toward Crestline,It is up for sale and Conrail is bidding on it, That's all the information I have on the once 4-track system,that the Pennsy ran on. Ed !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 02 Aug 97 08:47:08 UT Subject: Re: Alco FA-1 Content-Length: 1491 At 11:47 PM 8/1/97 UT, you wrote: >I'm in the planning stages of a PRR layout (HO) c. 1950 which will >include steam & the earliest appropriate diesels. Would the Alco FA-1 >have serviced Erie at that time? Does anyone have any thoughts >regarding the accuracy/performance of the Walther's FA-1 (Yes, I saw the >MR article)? I see the Red Caboose advertises one made by E-R Model. >Does anyone know about that company &/or have any of their loco's? >Thanks in advance! >-- >Jerry Shickler > > Greetings, I have ourchased bothe the E-R and Walthers new. Cannot recommend the E-R at all unless you just want the body, it is a good molding, the chassis stinks. The Walthers, at least the A-B-A set I bought run superbly, the body moldings are only fair. If you are going to do a PRR model then do some other body work and I don't think you will be dissapointed. I am a custom builder/painter and have never had anyone ask me to repaint or modify the body on an E-R model. I have repainted several of the Walthers FA's. Walthers offers an FA in the PRR Brunswick Green with single stripe, looks good. HOSAM Custom painted HO scale diesel locomotives & cabooses. S.A. McCall 4094 Carrsville Hwy Franklin, Va. 23851 phone (757)569-9286 for quotes or list w/prices e-mail hosam@gc.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 97 10:59:27 UT Subject: Re: FoM Decals: Need Your Input Content-Length: 574 In a message dated 97-08-01 10:50:07 EDT, you write: << A one-piece clear decal would be ideal for beginners. An advanced modeler may opt to use only the window panel of the decal and still hand-mask the gold stripes (thus avoiding the large clear decal areas). Food for thought. --- >> Actually, I think decals are best for thin striping like the Pennsy used. A laser-cut mask would be beneficial for schemes like the ATSF blue on yellow scheme dicussed in the MR paint shop feature. Just because is qain't Pennsy doesn't mean it's not marketable. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 97 11:00:05 UT Subject: Lines West mtg.? Re: New to the PRR talk list Content-Length: 725 In a message dated 97-08-01 11:42:13 EDT, you write: << Well, he is certainly in the minority, but he isn't the only one from 'Lines West'. :-) >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN >> And there's several others I haven't heard from since the Wreck of the KC. I've been toying with this idea. If I were to organize a PRR Lines West get together for late winter, early spring far enoughahead to get timely notice in all the mags, would anyone attend? Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 02 Aug 97 11:10:12 UT Subject: Lines Further West Content-Length: 772 You can add my wife and myself to the list of "Lines West" fans. We are a little further West in our interests. I am building the first stage of my "O" guage layout, loosely based on the PRR Mountain division in the 1930's. The second stage (in another room, connected by a tunnel) will be PRR, Wabash, and a little Monon in Indiana in the 1950's. I am just beginning to research the Indiana PRR 1950's at this time. Any suggestions for research material would be appreciated. I have one area of my PRR 1930's section which also needs additional help. I would like some COLOR photographs of 1930's era FREIGHT cars, both PRR and any cars labeled for major shippers. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 02 Aug 97 13:09:59 UT Subject: Re: Lines Further West Content-Length: 1418 > From: lpmorgan@iquest.net > Date: 02 Aug 97 11:10:12 UT > Reply-to: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Lines Further West > > I am just beginning to research the Indiana PRR 1950's at this time. > Any suggestions for research material would be appreciated. > > I have one area of my PRR 1930's section which also needs additional > help. I would like some COLOR photographs of 1930's era FREIGHT cars, > both PRR and any cars labeled for major shippers. > -- > Larry Morgan > lpmorgan@iquest.net > Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) You might try the NMRA Meet at the Hancock County 4H Fairgrounds in Greenfield on September 28, 1997 from 11am to 4pm. There generally is one or two picture dealers that show up at some of our bigger meets. Most of the older pictures are B&W but some are in color. Since it is in your back yard, it would be an easy place to look. No, you don't have to be an NMRA member to attend. BTW - I live in Anderson and work in Muncie at Ball State. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hostmaster@dsop.com Date: 02 Aug 97 13:28:11 UT Subject: SITE UPDATE SUMMARY Content-Length: 1009 Dear constituents of DSOP.COM: Work on DSOP.COM concluded around noon, today, as planned. DNS, Web service, mail/list service, and AppleSearch service is restored as it was -- perhaps with some speed improvements due to software upgrades for our routing system. FTP is back online, but under a new and faster server. There should be fewer timeouts and failures. All existing accounts are as they were, but logons do not yet map to specific directories; you will "arrive" at the top level and will need to navigate to the subdirectory that you desire. Also, "anonymous" FTP is now available. If you notice any "anomolies" about FTP access or other services, please let me know. It is more likely that you will find problems before I do. Thank you. In a week or two, I will be changing the mail and list servers. This will also be done over a weekend, with advance notice. -------------------- Jerry Britton, hostmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. hostmaster@dsop.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 97 14:02:12 UT Subject: Re: Lines Further West Content-Length: 1423 In a message dated 97-08-02 11:46:49 EDT, you write: << The second stage (in another room, connected by a tunnel) will be PRR, Wabash, and a little Monon in Indiana in the 1950's. >> Larry, Wabash is a good choice as it was one of the railroads in which the Pennsylvania Railroad owned a majority or controlling interest during the first half of the 20th Century as was the Norfolk & Western and Detroit, Toledo & Ironton. The Pennsylvania's connections to the south, via Ohio River bridges at Cincinnati and Louisville were with the Louisville & Nashville and Norfolk & Western. Further south they were with the Atlantic Coast Line and Seaborad Airlines. Passenger connections west and southwest through St. Louis were with Missouri Pacific, MKT "Katy," and Union Pacific. The Pennsylvania shared Chicago Union Station with the CB&Q, the Gulf, Mobile & Ohio, and the Milkwaukee Road. It shared the suburban Englewood, Ill. station with the New York Central, Nickel Plate Road and the Rock Island. In the magazines you may have seen an ad for Big Four Graphics from Idianapolis. He works most fo the meets and flea markets in this area. He's got a very good selection of photos from early 1960s on, a little late for my transition-era modeling. There's a winter show at a Benedictine center on Indy's east side that was worth traveling 100 miles for the selection. Good Luck. Tom V> !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SteamEngine@webtv.net Date: 02 Aug 97 18:31:42 UT Subject: Re: Information on the Fort Wayne System Content-Length: 302 To Tom Vondruska, The system is still Operating .but down to two tracks,and down to one track west toward Crestline,It is up for sale and Conrail is bidding on it, That's all the information I have on the once 4-track system,that the Pennsy ran on. Ed !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SteamEngine@webtv.net Date: 02 Aug 97 18:35:56 UT Subject: Re: Information on the Fort Wayne System Content-Length: 302 To Tom Vondruska, The system is still Operating .but down to two tracks,and down to one track west toward Crestline,It is up for sale and Conrail is bidding on it, That's all the information I have on the once 4-track system,that the Pennsy ran on. Ed !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: wjhudson@erols.com Date: 02 Aug 97 19:32:16 UT Subject: PRR's Twighlight of Steam Content-Length: 602 Does anyone out there know of a source which lists the classes of steam locomotives that were active in the last years of steam on the Pennsy? I have seen a list for 1947, but is there a later one? Say somewhere between 1952-1956? I would assume such a list would contain engines such as B6s, L1s, K4s, I1s, H9s, and H10s.... It seems like the larger power was the first to go... Was anything else still under steam? When would each of these classes have been phased out? I'd appreciate any comments! Thanks! -- -Jim Hudson wjhudson@erols.com http://www.erols.com/wjhudson/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 02 Aug 97 21:01:54 UT Subject: Re: PRR's Twighlight of Steam Content-Length: 1247 In a message dated 97-08-02 20:40:34 EDT, you write: << I would assume such a list would contain engines such as B6s, L1s, K4s, I1s, H9s, and H10s.... It seems like the larger power was the first to go... Was anything else still under steam? When would each of these classes have been phased out? I'd appreciate any comments! Thanks! >> What part of the system are you talking about? The Columbus Division was fairly well dieselized by 1951 or 1952 when steam loco service faciliities in Xenia, Ohio, were razed. Yet on the Sandusky branch, the southern terminus of which is about 50 miles east of Xenia, J-1 2-10-4s ruled at the head of the coal drags heading north to the Erie shore until the very end in 1957. Of course, these were among the last new steam units purchased by the Pennsylvania. Mountains and Decapods ran through most of the 1950s in Pennsylvania. The first to go were the oldest, the Atlantics and Pacifics, and the most uneconomical, the maintenence-hungry T-1 4-4-4-4s, the two Q-class engines and the S-2 Turbine. These later units were quickly replaced with the EMD E-units, the ALCO PA1 & PB1 and (a moment of awed silence please) the Baldwin BP-20 sharknoses. Tom V. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 02 Aug 97 23:56:56 UT Subject: Re: Lines West mtg.? Re: New to the PRR talk list Content-Length: 1013 TVondruska@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-01 11:42:13 EDT, you write: > > << Well, he is certainly in the minority, but he isn't the > only one from 'Lines West'. :-) > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > > > Roger > > Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org > Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN > >> > And there's several others I haven't heard from since the Wreck of the > KC. > > I've been toying with this idea. If I were to organize a PRR Lines > West get > together for late winter, early spring far enoughahead to get timely > notice > in all the mags, would anyone attend? > > Tom V. Where would you propose meeting? My "range" for a one day event is as far east as Columbus Ohio. I could be interested. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 03 Aug 97 00:16:01 UT Subject: Re: Lines Further West Content-Length: 1988 TVondruska@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-02 11:46:49 EDT, you write: > > << The second stage (in another room, connected by a tunnel) will be > PRR, > Wabash, and a little Monon in Indiana in the 1950's. > >> > Larry, > > Wabash is a good choice as it was one of the railroads in which the > Pennsylvania Railroad owned a majority or controlling interest during > the > first half of the 20th Century as was the Norfolk & Western and > Detroit, > Toledo & Ironton. The Pennsylvania's connections to the south, via > Ohio River > bridges at Cincinnati and Louisville were with the Louisville & > Nashville and > Norfolk & Western. Further south they were with the Atlantic Coast > Line and > Seaborad Airlines. Passenger connections west and southwest through > St. > Louis were with Missouri Pacific, MKT "Katy," and Union Pacific. > The Pennsylvania shared Chicago Union Station with the CB&Q, the Gulf, > Mobile > & Ohio, and the Milkwaukee Road. It shared the suburban Englewood, > Ill. > station with the New York Central, Nickel Plate Road and the Rock > Island. > > In the magazines you may have seen an ad for Big Four Graphics from > Idianapolis. He works most fo the meets and flea markets in this area. > He's > got a very good selection of photos from early 1960s on, a little late > for my > transition-era modeling. > There's a winter show at a Benedictine center on Indy's east side > that was > worth traveling 100 miles for the selection. > > Good Luck. > > Tom V> 1960's will be a little late for me as well. I will look up Big Four Graphics. You should find me at all the TCA meets at the Benedictine Center. My PRR cap has become a trademark at these meets. Thanks for the additional information. I am going to try to track down the old PRR trackage in Indiana. Looking for any identfying PRR marks. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 03 Aug 97 02:08:35 UT Subject: Re: PRR's Twighlight of Steam Content-Length: 1801 > Does anyone out there know of a source which lists the classes of > steam locomotives that were active in the last years of steam on the > Pennsy? I have seen a list for 1947, but is there a later one? Say > somewhere between 1952-1956? > > I would assume such a list would contain engines such as B6s, L1s, > K4s, I1s, H9s, and H10s.... It seems like the larger power was > the first to go... Was anything else still under steam? When would > each of these classes have been phased out? Keep your eyes open, Jim, at train shows and such -- that list was updated and republished periodically into the early 1950s. I have seen copies of it dated around 1953 and I think even 1956. You're right -- at the end, PRR narrowed the number of steam classes in service to standardize on maintenance and parts. The last to go were B6sb, H9s/H10s, I1s/I1sa, L1s, K4s, M1/M1a/M1b, and J1/J1a, just seven classes. These were kept in certain pockets; for example, a pool of general-purpose L1s was kept at Enola for yard and miscellaneous work, even though the few remaining mainline steam assignments in 1956 and 1957 were held by M-class and on rare occasions, I-class, locomotives. And yes, the complicated large engines were quickly taken out of service -- the greatest fleet casualties being the T1 and the Q2, which were pretty much retired by 1951/52 with the arrival of America's largest fleet of E8s and hordes of F3s/F7s and Sharks. Yet the complex engines weren't the only targets -- some perfectly serviceable and reliable simple steam classes, such as the sturdy 90-member group of G5s, were also sidelined by this time. G5s retirements started in 1949 and all but about eight were gone by the end of 1953. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 03 Aug 97 03:04:16 UT Subject: Re: What is Keystone Crossings? Content-Length: 851 Thank You I visited it the other night Very interesting. jerry@dsop.com wrote: > From: eminton@hula.net > > > What is Keystone Crossings? As a new participant I am not aware. I > enjoy > > this Group very much. > > Wow...someone found this list without going through the web site! > > "Keystone Crossings" (a.k.a. "KC") is my Web site dedicated to the > PRR. It > is one of about a half dozen such sites that have "quantities" of PRR > data. > The URL to my site is in my signature, below. If you visit, there is a > > "Links" page with links to the other sites I mentioned. > > Happy surfing! 8-) > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 03 Aug 97 03:13:03 UT Subject: Re: Lines West mtg.? Re: New to the PRR talk list Content-Length: 950 Aloha, I am much to far west so would not participate unless work had me in the same area at the same time. Thanks, Eric PRR Hawaii Division TVondruska@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-08-01 11:42:13 EDT, you write: > > << Well, he is certainly in the minority, but he isn't the > only one from 'Lines West'. :-) > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > > > Roger > > Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org > Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN > >> > And there's several others I haven't heard from since the Wreck of the > KC. > > I've been toying with this idea. If I were to organize a PRR Lines > West get > together for late winter, early spring far enoughahead to get timely > notice > in all the mags, would anyone attend? > > Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 03 Aug 97 09:13:09 UT Subject: Re: Lines Further West Content-Length: 536 > > I am just beginning to research the Indiana PRR 1950's at this time. > Any suggestions for research material would be appreciated. > > Larry Morgan > lpmorgan@iquest.net > Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) > TCA/TTOS A possible source of ideas for your railroad design might be John Armstrong's HO track plan of a PRR layout centered around Richmond, Indiana. It is in the Kalmbach book _18 Tailor-Made Model Railroad Track Plans_. The text includes some ideas for operation in the 1953 period. Steve Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 03 Aug 97 14:21:48 UT Subject: Re: Lines Further West Content-Length: 1056 In a message dated 97-08-03 09:25:13 EDT, Steve Bartlett writes: << A possible source of ideas for your railroad design might be John Armstrong's HO track plan of a PRR layout centered around Richmond, Indiana. It is in the Kalmbach book _18 Tailor-Made Model Railroad Track Plans_. The text includes some ideas for operation in the 1953 period >> Steve, you're on to something here, especially for passenger operations. Well seasoned railfans ifrom the Dayton area tell me that in the heyday of the PRR, Richmod was considered one of the premeiere Pennsy railfanning hotspots with SIX Pennsy lines converging on it (well, if you extend Richmond just a little bit east to include New Paris, O., just across the state line) with five of the lines carrying varnish. It was where the Panhandle Columbus-St. Louis and Chicago-Cincinnati passenger mains crossed and the Old GR&I headed north to Fort Wayne, Kalamazoo and beyond. About 1960 Model Railroader featured a layout focused on PRR passenger operations at Richmond. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 03 Aug 97 16:31:09 UT Subject: Re: PRR's Twighlight of Steam Content-Length: 591 Jim--- PRR employee TT's of the era generally had a section listing which classes of locomotive were banned from various sidings, branches (and even sections of main.) If you have one, or can get one, this would give you a fairly good idea of what classes were still in use. The listing was set up with a column for each class of engine, with the locations listed down one side, and an "X" in the column if the engine were banned. As time went by, steam class columns would disappear one by one, to be replaced by diesel class columns. Rich Copeland Glenside, PA !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 03 Aug 97 20:49:06 UT Subject: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 429 Hi, I need the startup date of Amtrak. With everything that I have here, I don't seem to find that. :-) Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bearpair@erols.com Date: 03 Aug 97 21:46:46 UT Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 252 rhensley@ecicnet.org wrote: > > Hi, > > I need the startup date of Amtrak. With everything that I have here, > I don't seem to find that. :-) > > Roger > Roger - AMTRAK started operations on May 1, 1971. Mike Calo Annapolis, MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MCrim1361@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 00:23:59 UT Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 124 Amtrak officially took over most of the nation's intercity passenger train service on May 1, 1971. mcrim1361@aol.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 04 Aug 97 08:16:01 UT Subject: Railfanning near Altoona Content-Length: 1363 Posted this a week or so ago and not much response, let me rephrase... I will be in Williamsburg, Pa., this Saturday, about 20 minutes southeast of Altoona. I will have about 3 hours to "escape" for some railfanning. Last year I did Cresson and Tunnel Hill (Gallitzin). I've been to The Curve and to the Railroaders Museum. Though I haven't yet been to The Brickyard, I can't see driving into Altoona just for that. My thought was to check out the line from Water Street (town, not a street) to Tyrone. I think I can get from Williamsburg to Water Street in about 20-25 minutes. From there, it's just a short hop to scenic Spruce Creek. I've been to Spruce Creek before, but I didn't realize its significance as I wasn't as much of a railfan then. Where are the tunnels in relation to where the road crosses the Little Juniata River at Spruce Creek? How frequent are trains there on a Saturday between noon and 2 p.m.? Is Jack's Narrows along the stretch between Water Street and Tyrone? What other spots should I check out between Water Street and Tyrone? In Tyrone, is the junction with the Bald Eagle Branch worth seeing? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BEMIDJIAN@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 08:30:47 UT Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 28 Amtrak startup was 5/1/71. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 04 Aug 97 09:11:55 UT Subject: Union Junction, Baltimore Content-Length: 1900 The Spring 1995 issue of "The Keystone", dedicated to Baltimore, leaves me with a few questions about Union Junction, sitting between Penn Station and the Union Tunnel: A 1912 map of trackage in the area does not show a wye to the trackage to the south (Calvert Station). Coming north out of Calvert, the only route curves northwest into Penn Station. At some point, a wye was added so that a train coming out of Calvert could also curve northeast into the Union Tunnel. This wye is visible on a 1930 photo of the Union Junction model board. The 1955 track diagram no longer shows the wye. Anyone know when it was installed and when it was removed? The Guilford Avenue engine facility was built in the 1800s to service passenger locos. Per a drawing in "The Keystone", it featured a 12-stall roundhouse. One place in the issue states that the roundhouse was removed prior to 1918 (the turntable remained). A photo dated 1912 shows the roundhouse already gone; another shows it there in 1911. A lead from the turntable ran NE towards Penn Station; another ran south towards Calvert. A photo in Gunnarson's "Northern Central" book shows a water pipe to the right of the turntable (when facing NE) on the south lead. Does anyone know what kind of services (coal, ash, etc.) where located at this facility, and where they were located vs. the turntable? There were none on the NW lead, per "The Keystone" photos. Were there any (besides water) on the south lead? Hank Mummert "thinks" this turntable was only used for light servicing. Add to that the obvious use of turning locos for the station. However, I find it hard to believe that coal was not to be had here. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 09:29:21 UT Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 25 Amtrak born May 1, 1971 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 09:49:14 UT Subject: Re: Railfanning near Altoona Content-Length: 663 In a message dated 97-08-04 08:24:58 EDT, you write: << Juniata River at Spruce Creek? When you go through the underpass the track are about 1/2 mile west of the west portals. When you are on the bridge over the Juniata near the confluence of Spruce Creek and the Juniata you can see the portals upstream. It is difficult to get to the tunnel without getting wet, i.e. wade the river. Also, be careful where you step particularly this time of year, rattlesnakes are populous in the area and like to sun themselves on the right-of-way. Or at least they were 30 years ago when I was a PSU student and able to frequent the area. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mxb13@psu.edu Date: 04 Aug 97 09:55:27 UT Subject: Re: Railfanning near Altoona Content-Length: 2199 A few thoughts from someone who visits this territory regularly: >I will be in Williamsburg, Pa., this Saturday, about 20 minutes southeast of >Altoona. I will have about 3 hours to "escape" for some railfanning. Last >year I did Cresson and Tunnel Hill (Gallitzin). I've been to The Curve and >to the Railroaders Museum. Though I haven't yet been to The Brickyard, I >can't see driving into Altoona just for that. I could. It's a great place to hang out. You get trains climbing the hill with helpers. Need I say more? >My thought was to check out the line from Water Street (town, not a street) >to Tyrone. I think I can get from Williamsburg to Water Street in about >20-25 minutes. From there, it's just a short hop to scenic Spruce Creek. >I've been to Spruce Creek before, but I didn't realize its significance as I >wasn't as much of a railfan then. >From waterstreet, take rt 45, go under the tracks, turn right, and park near the church on your left. A short walk east will take you to the tunnels. But beware: you risk a heavy fine if cited by CR police. Or you can head north from waterstreet c. 15 min. further to Tyrone. You might catch a UFS coal train on the Bald Eagle branch, as I did last Sat. Always a treat. NBER interchanges here M-W-F only. In between Tyrone & Waterstreet, there are numerous places to pull in & admire the scenery & watch the trains. >How frequent are trains there on a Saturday between noon and 2 p.m.? You should see amtrak 43 c. 1:30-1:45. Maybe 40 if he's running an hour or more late, as sometimes happens. CR traffic is just too variable to predict, maybe 2-3, maybe 7-8. >Is Jack's Narrows along the stretch between Water Street and Tyrone? No, it's between Huntingdon & Mt. Union. You can enter on foot from the village of Mapleton (consult your hi way map). Also a very scenic location, but again, if you want to go there, you'll be trespassing. You might check out Huntingdon & HUNT tower--well worth visiting. Maybe you've been there. The tower may be open on a Sat. afternoon. The Barree straight line between the tunnels and Petersburg also offers good possibilites. Mike !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sbartlet@capecod.net Date: 04 Aug 97 11:07:21 UT Subject: Re: Railfanning near Altoona Content-Length: 431 Jerry, Railpace Magazine did a series of articles titled "Railfanning Conrail's Pittsburgh Line." The articles include topographic maps showing the area in great detail, as follows: December 1991 - Part 1 - Lewistown to Mt. Union January 1992 - Part 2 - Huntingdon to Spruce Creek February 1992 - Part 3 - Union Furnace to East Altoona May 1992 - - Railfan's Guide to Horseshoe Curve Steve Bartlett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 04 Aug 97 11:50:02 UT Subject: fwd: Pennsy Cabin Cars in Passenger Service Content-Length: 1589 Forwarded from the n-scale mailing list. Can anybody help this guy out? I've told him about this list. Dennis ------- Forwarded Message From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:39:00 -0400 (EDT) To: n-scale@lists.stanford.edu Subject: [N] Pennsy Cabin Cars in Passenger Service While reading something in a local hobby shop the other day, I discovered that starting in 1926 through the '50s the PRR used cabin cars in passenger service. According to the photos these N-5 variants wore red and gold keysones, had dulux lettering and were numbered in 5000 range. The cabin cars were tuscan red with black roofs and were marked Railway Express Agency or Passenger Service. The pics were quite handsome but they were all stand alone shots. These cars apparently were used as crew cars on long distance passenger trians heavy with mail and express, but were also pressed into frieght service when needed. My question for list members is this: Did these cars ride in the front with the head-end equipment, before the passengers, or did they ride in the rear.... and if they were in the rear, did the PRR string the head-end cars back there as well????????? In constant pursuit of realism on Pennsy Phila. Main Line of the 1940's - -1950's... Yours, JP ************************************************* If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message body of "unsubscribe n-scale" to majordomo@lists.stanford.edu ------- End of Forwarded Message !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 04 Aug 97 12:08:03 UT Subject: Re: Pennsy Cabin Cars in Passenger Service Content-Length: 1416 From: dennis@bbn.com (Fwd from n-scale@lists.stanford.edu) > These cars apparently were used as crew cars on long distance passenger > trians heavy with mail and express, but were also pressed into frieght > service when needed. My question for list members is this: Did these cars > ride in the front with the head-end equipment, before the passengers, or did > they ride in the rear.... and if they were in the rear, did the PRR string > the head-end cars back there as well????????? Not sure where these cars rode when mixed with passenger cars, but... Some "all mail" trains ran...classified as passenger consists. While visiting Bill Lewis in York, he played a black and white video of such an "all mail" train going around Horseshoe Curve. Instead of an N5 cabin as a crew car, however, it had some variant of a passenger car at the tail end. Interesting thing was, there were helpers behind this car. Others in attendance stated that this was a "no, no" for safety reasons -- no helpers ever pushing passenger equipment. Group decided there must've been a variance since it was a dedicated mail train. Pennsy Color Guide Vol. 2 has numerous photos of "Crew Express" cars. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 12:21:03 UT Subject: Cabin Car list revised Content-Length: 613 To Rob, Rich and any one else who's interested: I've revised the Cabin Car roster from the December 1973 Keystone, adding information about the single-car N4 class that was featured in the December 1995 Model Railroader. The information is now in two ASCII HTML tables, roster and distribution by region. There is a third file, a text file, that contains a brief description of each of the 14 classes of cabin cars operated by the PRR in 1957 I'll be making this information part of my "Panhandle Pages," now under construction. I'd be happy to send these files to anyone who wants them. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 04 Aug 97 13:12:14 UT Subject: RE: fwd: Pennsy Cabin Cars in Passenger Service Content-Length: 794 To the best of my knowledge these cabin cars were never mixed with passenger cars. The only "passenger" trains in which they appeared were all-mail and express trains which had no coaches for the rider crew. The specially assigned cabins ran as crew cars at the rear. The description of the "red and gold" keystones is fascinating. All the photos I've ever seen were black and white and so I never noticed if they were painted any differently than the freight cabooses of the period; except, of course, for the "Railway Express Agency, Assigned to Passenger Service" markings. regards Andy Miller BTW Dennis, While it does neither you nor your friend any good, Bowser offered N5s so painted in HO. I don't believe they were anything but freight car red and white. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 04 Aug 97 14:15:14 UT Subject: RE: Pennsy Cabin Cars in Passenger Service Content-Length: 1797 Hi All, The "Keystone" had a recent in depth article on the cabin cars in passenger service Summer 1996, Volume 29, Number 2: Color photos of the Aerotrain in Harrisburg, on the front and back covers. A review of the Weaver Models O-gauge K4s with Loewy streamlining. "How to Wash A Locomotive" - about a 1943 " runaway H-9. An interview with Clair I. Clugh, Manager, Altoona Works, retired (deceased) with many photographs from the erecting bays, shots of Altoona, and maps. The Centerspread is a painting of T-1 #6111 on Horseshoe curve in May 1942. A story on the first M1 class #4700 with many detailed pictures. >>>>>>>A story describing PRR Crew Express Cabin Cars complete with photos, >>>>>>>paint charts,train numbers and rosters. >From the listing of Keystone Table of Contents on my web page at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR.html Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 14:48:58 UT Subject: IHC/Rivarossi Pax Cars Content-Length: 674 Does anyone know how to disassemble the IHC/Rivarrossi passenger cars? It appears they are held together by a number of clear plastic pieces that extend through the bottom of the car and lock in place in the notches provided. These are 'spring-loaded' and I don't have fingers enough for the six locations. The reason I'm interested in taking them apart is that the Rivarossi's have interiors( which I intend to replicate by molding) thus providing my IHC's( which are empty) with interiors. I've tried all over the place to buy some of the interiors but they aren't available. Any help anyone might provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 04 Aug 97 15:04:27 UT Subject: FOM paint & decals Content-Length: 2583 With regards to the discussion of FOM decals - here is how I would deal with this problem: 1a) As has been suggested on the, one decal for the right side of the band, one for the left - this can be adjusted for car length. Lay on over the windows, and cut out the windows. Do this on a gloss finished tuscan car (the band is maroon - check the color against a drift card or the colors in the back of the PRRT&HS PRR passneger car book) 1b) Paint the car side maroon, cut a mask the shape of the band from masking tape and apply over the windows. Back spray the edge lightly with maroon to seal, and spray the car Tuscan, and unmask. N.B. I would choose 1b - this is a simple mask - great to learn on (hey do a dummy car side first - ie a sheet of styrene). I will probably paint a P5a modified in this scheme as they carried it in the late 30's and some into the 40's. 2) Use seperate decals for the stripes (one set for upper, one for lower) 3) use seperate decals for the names, numbers etc. Applying on decal over the other is done ALL the time - no gloss coat between needed! 4) Solvaset - required for the decals to sit down flat 5) Follow with Dullcote, or a gloss coat, depending on the condition of your car. Other hints - A) use Poly Scale (NOT Poly S) - they are very fine and provide a good satin finish which doesn't really need a gloss coat before decaling (you could add a little gloss directly to the color if you wish) B) Detail (grab irons etc), Paint and Decal the car sides flat (eg for Eastern Car Works) before assembling the car - this means you aren't crushing the detail on the other side and you don't have to mask the side from the underframe when painting it! Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hebnerj@CLARK.CC.OH.US Date: 04 Aug 97 15:13:52 UT Subject: Re: IHC/Rivarossi Pax Cars Content-Length: 144 Have you tried to purchase them directly? IHC/Rivarrossi advertises them all the time. I just saw them in the current mags. Jim Hebner !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 04 Aug 97 15:23:05 UT Subject: RE: IHC/Rivarossi Pax Cars Content-Length: 2039 Rivarossi uses two different schemes for assembling their passenger cars. The heayweights and the "1930" smoothside cars have the roof and windows cast as one clear plasitc piece (the roof is painted) with 6 tabs projecting throu the floor. The secret removing these is to start at one end. With a small screw driver, pry the 2 tabs at one end open slightly, then holding the car so that your fingers prevent the roof from slipping back into the body, pry the center 2 tabs. The last 2 tabs will probably just pop out by themselves! The new fluted R cars are a nightmare! the roof and sides are one piece, the floor is another piece and the window strips form two more pieces, one for each side. Unlike the older cars, the windows are not flat but rather are cast with projections into each window similar to Athearn cars. This overcomes the appearance of the excessive thicknes of the plastic sides as seen in the windows. Unfortunatly R uses this to hold the car together! The window projections "grab" the sides, are held in place at the top by a cast in shelf in the side and then lock the whole thing to the floor with tabs similar to the older cars. To reassemble one of these puppies you need four hands, two of which must be locked inside the car when you are done! Good luck Andy Miller >Does anyone know how to disassemble the IHC/Rivarrossi >passenger cars? It appears they are held together by a >number of clear plastic pieces that extend through the >bottom of the car and lock in place in the notches provided. >These are 'spring-loaded' and I don't have fingers enough for >the six locations. The reason I'm interested in taking them >apart is that the Rivarossi's have interiors( which I intend to >replicate by molding) thus providing my IHC's( which are >empty) with interiors. I've tried all over the place to buy some >of the interiors but they aren't available. Any help anyone might >provide would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, > >George > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 04 Aug 97 15:50:58 UT Subject: Re: FOM paint & decals Content-Length: 895 From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu: > With regards to the discussion of FOM decals - here is how I would deal > with this problem: > > 1b) Paint the car side maroon, cut a mask the shape of the band from > masking tape and apply over the windows. Back spray the edge lightly with > maroon to seal, and spray the car Tuscan, and unmask. Hmmm. Great approach. Till now, we've been thinking from the outside in. Painting the car Dark Tuscan Red first, then masking the window band out for repainting in Tuscan Red would require a much smaller mask which would be much easier to align. Only thing it doesn't address is that damned narrow gold border around the window band!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 04 Aug 97 15:53:40 UT Subject: Re: IHC/Rivarossi Pax Cars Content-Length: 477 From: hebnerj@CLARK.CC.OH.US > Have you tried to purchase them directly? IHC/Rivarrossi advertises them > all the time. I just saw them in the current mags. Read closely...although the cars are available, the only interior available anymore is for the Combine. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: kkratts@alaska.net Date: 04 Aug 97 15:55:14 UT Subject: Re: IHC/Rivarossi Pax Cars Content-Length: 912 Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone know how to disassemble the IHC/Rivarrossi > passenger cars? It appears they are held together by a > number of clear plastic pieces that extend through the > bottom of the car and lock in place in the notches provided. > These are 'spring-loaded' and I don't have fingers enough for > the six locations. The reason I'm interested in taking them > apart is that the Rivarossi's have interiors( which I intend to > replicate by molding) thus providing my IHC's( which are > empty) with interiors. I've tried all over the place to buy some > of the interiors but they aren't available. Any help anyone might > provide would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Georgegeorge Yes, these cars are held together by those six or so tabs. As a matter of fact, the roof and windows are all one peice and the pins are part of this assembly. Kevin !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: kkratts@alaska.net Date: 04 Aug 97 16:28:00 UT Subject: Re: IHC/Rivarossi Pax Cars Content-Length: 328 hebnerj@CLARK.CC.OH.US wrote: > > Have you tried to purchase them directly? IHC/Rivarrossi advertises them > all the time. I just saw them in the current mags. > > Jim Hebner No, my road doesn't haul passengers. And the PRR I model is only freight. The closest I come to passenger is mail and express. Kevin !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 19:35:39 UT Subject: PRR Newbie Content-Length: 853 Hi PRR list members! My name is J.P. I found out about this list yesterday from Dennis Rockwell who was kind enough to forward an inquiry about PRR Cabin Cars from the N Scale list for me. Thanks for your responses! By way of introduction I'm 36 and live in Alexandria, VA, about 2 miles south of Potomac Yards (RIP). I model the suburban Phila PRR mainline '40's - 50's in N Scale. I caught the Pennsy bug as a kid... I grew up in Radnor, on the Main Line and could hear the trains go by from my room at night. Both my grandfathers worked on the PRR and my dad climbed abord an MU to Suburban Station and went to work downtown every weekday of his adult life. So I've recreated about 6'x4' of my childhood in the basement. I look forward to an enjoyable exchange of info and war stories with all of you. All the best, JP !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DocMorrow@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 20:00:14 UT Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 16 APRIL 1st 1976 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveg@ibm.net Date: 04 Aug 97 20:40:11 UT Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 304 On 04 Aug 97 20:00:14 UT, DocMorrow@aol.com wrote: >APRIL 1st 1976 > BZZZZZZZZZZZZ> Wrong! That was Conrail's startup date. May 1, 1971 for Amtrak. ------------------------------------------------- Steven M. Geisler, steveg@ibm.net P.O. Box 16156, Pittsburgh, PA 15242 (412) 920-1864 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 04 Aug 97 20:41:14 UT From: cobrandt@eclipse.net Subject: Re: Amtrak Startup Date Content-Length: 406 DocMorrow@aol.com wrote: > APRIL 1st 1976 Was Conrail, yes?Amtrak was 5/1/71 (The only railroad birthday I ever celebrate is April 13, 1846!) -Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MCrim1361@aol.com Date: 04 Aug 97 20:55:42 UT Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 178 Well, Kevin. . . I don't think I can take it much longer. . . I'm ready to see some current motive power with PRR paint and logos on it. . . I could be interested. Marvin !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 04 Aug 97 21:00:31 UT Subject: Dates that shall live in infamy. Content-Length: 436 Dates that shall live in infamy. December 7, 1941 Pearl Harbor February 1, 1968 Penn Central May 1, 1971 Amtrak April 1, 1976 Conrail ??????????CSX/NS/Hindenburg ?????????? Union Pacific, only railroad in the 48 States with holdings in the other two states and all territories. ????????? UP sold to foreign investors, no US railroads left. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mjbst73@vms.cis.pitt.edu Date: 04 Aug 97 23:21:51 UT Subject: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 250 Not being from the Tyrone area, I'm not familiar with the PRR there. Just outside of Tyrone on Rte. 453 is an old rail span. Does anyone know what it was used for and when it was abandoned? Just need to satisfy my curiosity. Thanks, Matt !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 04 Aug 97 23:31:40 UT Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 430 Aloha, I Model the Pennsy there wasn't any merger and the RailRoad IS the Standard. Passenger cars are Stainless with Tuscan window bands Red & white PRR Keystones similar to the ones on the Genesis someone has on a web page. Eric kkratts@alaska.net wrote: > Is anyone else doing a "what if the PRR had survived" modeling scheme? > > I've started one on paper. Anyone else interested in this? > > Kevin !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: eminton@hula.net Date: 04 Aug 97 23:38:57 UT Subject: Re: PRR Newbie Content-Length: 1092 Aloha, You don't sound like a "Newbie" to me. My worlds is a 2x8 module featuring Live catenery an GG-1's still operating on the PRRHD Eric Jpk815@aol.com wrote: > Hi PRR list members! > > My name is J.P. I found out about this list yesterday from Dennis > Rockwell > who was kind enough to forward an inquiry about PRR Cabin Cars from > the N > Scale list for me. Thanks for your responses! > > By way of introduction I'm 36 and live in Alexandria, VA, about 2 > miles south > of Potomac Yards (RIP). I model the suburban Phila PRR mainline '40's > - 50's > in N Scale. I caught the Pennsy bug as a kid... I grew up in Radnor, > on the > Main Line and could hear the trains go by from my room at night. Both > my > grandfathers worked on the PRR and my dad climbed abord an MU to > Suburban > Station and went to work downtown every weekday of his adult life. So > I've > recreated about 6'x4' of my childhood in the basement. > > I look forward to an enjoyable exchange of info and war stories with > all of > you. > > All the best, JP !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 04 Aug 97 23:58:04 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 1803 > Not being from the Tyrone area, I'm not familiar with the PRR there. > Just outside of Tyrone on Rte. 453 is an old rail span. Does anyone > know what it was used for and when it was abandoned? Just need to > satisfy my curiosity. This was the former PRR Fairbrook Branch, which ran northeastward from Tyrone through Warriors Mark and Pennsylvania Furnace to Fairbrook, 20.27 miles, where it connected with two smaller PRR branches, the Scotia Branch, 5.3 miles, and the Juniata Branch, 2.03 miles. At its eastern end, the Fairbrook Branch connected with the Bellefonte Central Railroad, and at one point in its later history, PRR sold most of this branch to the BFC. PRR's 1933 Record of Transportation Lines show PRR ownership remaining at only 2-1/2 miles eastward from Tyrone (and this would include the bridge referred to in the post) to a place named Stover, Pa., and a junction there with BFC -- obviously, the remainder of the original Fairbrook Branch. A 1937 Official Guide shows the line under BFC ownership but with the notation "freight service temporarily suspended." I do not know the date of abandonment of any portion of the branch, but it was certainly a long time ago, probably not long after that Official Guide entry. However, on the part you referred to near Tyrone, the bridge actually continued farther east than it now does, extending across the highway, until fairly recently. In about the last 10 years or so, PennDOT straightened the road and removed the abutments as a hazard to motorists. I feel sure that Mike Bezilla would be glad to dip into the research that he is conducting for a book on the BFC and enlighten us as to actual dates of PRR/BFC ownership, etc. Back to you, Mike? Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mxb13@psu.edu Date: 05 Aug 97 08:24:41 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 2439 >> Not being from the Tyrone area, I'm not familiar with the PRR there. >> Just outside of Tyrone on Rte. 453 is an old rail span. Does anyone >> know what it was used for and when it was abandoned? Just need to >> satisfy my curiosity. Dan Cupper wrote: >This was the former PRR Fairbrook Branch, which ran northeastward >from Tyrone through Warriors Mark and Pennsylvania Furnace to >Fairbrook, 20.27 miles... >I do not know the date of abandonment of any portion of the branch, >but it was certainly a long time ago >I feel sure that Mike Bezilla would be glad to dip into the research >that he is conducting for a book on the BFC and enlighten us as to actual >dates of PRR/BFC ownership, etc. Back to you, Mike? OK. First, I'm not sure how old this bridge is -- can't tell if it dates from the original construction of the Fairbrook br, which was in the 1880s. Anyway, as Dan said, this PRR branch did connect w/ the Bellefonte Central, first near the Scotia iron ore pits. It wasn't a true interchange, however. In the late 1920s, BFC built a new connector further west of State College, then bought almost the entire Fairbrook, and got trackage rights the last mile or two including over the bridge in question, to Tyrone. The PRR continued to serve a quarry a short distance east of the bridge, so they didn't want to sell this to the BFC, thus the trackage rights deal. But BFC's running into Tyrone last only c. 1929-32 or so, because the PRR refused to interchange there, they preferred Bellefonte. The BFC abandoned the Fairbrook c. 1940 and pulled up most of the rails for re-lay. However, the bridge stayed in, as the PRR still served the nearby quarry. I am not sure when service to the quarry ended. It may have been PRR or PC. There's still a PRR (quad)? hopper back in the quarry tho the rails have long been pulled up. But the bridge remained in use as a place to dump covered hoppers loaded with--well, I'm not sure. I want to say grain for local feed stores, or ammonium nitrate for explosives in nearby quarries. But I don't know for sure. So, often when driving rt 453, one could look up and see a hopper car or two spotted on the bridge. I think this practice cont'd early into the CR era, then as Dan said, PennDOT had the bridge partially dismantled to improve highway safety. More than you folks ever wanted to know about the bridge, I suspect. Mike !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 05 Aug 97 08:36:43 UT Subject: Re: FOM paint & decals Content-Length: 1206 Painting the minority area first has always been my technique. I have painted many postwar three-stripe PRR cars (and other roads) this way. I paint the PRR car gold first, then I mask the stripes with 1/64" charting tape, then paint the car tuscan. regards Andy Miller >From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu: > >> With regards to the discussion of FOM decals - here is how I would deal >> with this problem: >> >> 1b) Paint the car side maroon, cut a mask the shape of the band from >> masking tape and apply over the windows. Back spray the edge lightly with >> maroon to seal, and spray the car Tuscan, and unmask. > >Hmmm. Great approach. Till now, we've been thinking from the outside in. >Painting the car Dark Tuscan Red first, then masking the window band out for >repainting in Tuscan Red would require a much smaller mask which would be >much easier to align. > >Only thing it doesn't address is that damned narrow gold border around the >window band!!! >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com >1 JPEG = 1K words > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 05 Aug 97 08:44:58 UT Subject: RE: Dates that shall live in infamy. Content-Length: 621 Harry, You have one of your "events" of infamy wrong: December 7, 1941 "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" ;-) regards Andy Miller >Dates that shall live in infamy. > > >December 7, 1941 Pearl Harbor > >February 1, 1968 Penn Central > >May 1, 1971 Amtrak > >April 1, 1976 Conrail > >??????????CSX/NS/Hindenburg > >?????????? Union Pacific, only railroad >in the 48 States with holdings in the >other two states and all territories. > >????????? UP sold to foreign investors, >no US railroads left. > > > >Harry Fitch >hfitch@maranatha.net >Acts 4:12 > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 05 Aug 97 09:02:54 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 839 On 5 Aug, mxb13@psu.edu wrote: > [ ... ] the bridge remained in use as a place > to dump covered hoppers loaded with--well, I'm not sure. I want to say > grain for local feed stores, or ammonium nitrate for explosives in nearby > quarries. But I don't know for sure. So, often when driving rt 453, one > could look up and see a hopper car or two spotted on the bridge. Now, I'm intrigued. Did trucks park under the bridge? Was there a chute of some sort, or just laborers with shovels? This sounds as bizarrely Pennsy as the coaling "tower" consisting of a trestle where they spotted coal hoppers. Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: tmahon@cfnh.com Date: 05 Aug 97 09:17:43 UT Subject: FOM Discussion Content-Length: 409 At first, thought this discussion arcane. However, humbly offer apology. The variety of techniques discussed can be of use to me for my more routine/common paint projects. The 1/64 chart tape tripped me over, a common commodity and technique, but one not contemplated by this train head. EUREKA! Keep going, you can compile and edit, and offer as a complex paint scheme primer. Regards, Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 05 Aug 97 09:35:07 UT Subject: NMRA Convention PRR news Content-Length: 6237 Hi Fellow PRR fans, Well, I've cleared the backlog of snail mail off of my desk so now I have time to tell y'all about Madison, from a PRR perspective. Mostly, I'll focus on the National Train Show, as there wasn't too much PRR specific stuff at the convention (Al Westerfield gave his XL clinic) Model Railroad Stone Works, Langhorne PA, 215-321-1331 - as at PRRT&HS they had their BEAUTIFUL HO stone arch bridges. Next to be released (9/97), a high PRR stone arch bridge modeled after the Trenton cut-off at Langhorne - WOW!!! These people are to PRR fans what Micro engineering is to the rest of the world! Loco Masters (GHQ) They are taking reservations for an N-scale L-1 Mikado conversion for the Kato Mikado mechanism. This has got to be seen to be believed!! About the only thing you keep is the drive train - all new pewter boiler, and tons of detail, for $99.95!! They are also taking reservations for Great Northern Y-1 (boxcab) and Y-1a (EMD cab) electrics and PRR FF-2 "Snapper" electrics. These are also pewter conversion kits designed to use the Rivarossi GG-1 mechanism. They will cost $169.95. They will be available direct from GHQ, 612-374-2693, www.ghqmodels.com Sunshine Models, Box 4997, Springfield MO, 65808-4997, was displaying their new (earlier this year) F30 and FM HO flat car kits. The FM is available with revenue service decals or with company service (MOW) decals, and in a version with a short cabin and side boards. Al Westerfield had his XL Camp Cars, which have been described on this list previoulsly - look for a building update from me soon - I just finished the first kit, and they are great! Red Caboose has released their first version of the X-29 boxcar in HO. This represents the earliest (1925) cars with flat ends. New releases will include multiple different end styles. Multiple (at least 4 that I saw) road numbers will be released. These kits have all seperate details such as grab irons, brake detail etc. I picked one up for $12.00 at a hobby shop booth at the show. C&BT (at least I think that is who it was) was advertising an x-29b. They had the first test shot there, which had some errors in it that they will correct. These cars represent nearly complete rebuilds of the bodies of the X-29. No sign of the Tichy X-29 Walthers was showing off prototypes of their new releases. None of these are specifically PRR prototypes, but may be able to stand in, or be bashed to PRR specs. While I am no fan of their kits (often poorly to completely undetailed, poorly molded, and difficult to assemble), some of these might be worth a second look. An ore dock (YUP! due in Nov) 2 tracks, 44" long, over 10" high with working chutes and a "modular design" that will allow back to back and end to end combos which will completely eat up your layout room!! I would look for a lot of these to show up on modular layouts as stub ended additions. (another company was selling a resin model of the Edmund Fitzgerald - HO scale - about 8 feet long!!!!!). They will also be selling a working Bascule Bridge (Due in Feb, 33.5" long, 11" high), Ore cars (Nov), a double track concrete coaling tower (Jan), Water tank and 2 standpipes (Dec), and a wooden interlocking tower (Sept) Key Imports was showing off their T-1 models in both prototype (6110,6111) and production versions. Listing at $2200.00 - These were well done, with working tender hatches, visible stoker screw, and nice paint/lettering - worth 2k? Almost all of Key's stock has been sold (to dealers who are selling in the range of $1700). Challenger Imports S-1 I didn't actually see one, but Challenger is the ruler when it comes to great brass. I would expect as price in the $1500 - $2000 range, and I would PAY IT NOW!!!!!! These babies will appreciate quickly. BTW, anyone actually run an S-1 on a layout? - The advertisment implies that this is a collectors item for display...(hmm, make that $2000-2500!!!) Railworks - I don't know about anyone else, but I find their dark locomotive enamel (aka Brunswick Green) to be way too GREEN. Anyway, buy unpainted and paint it yourself. They are very close to releasing the MP54 MUs - WOWOWOWOWOW - incredible detail. New projects seem to be focusing on rolling stock. Precision Scale - The big dealers are wispering about Precision because they seem to have adopted a policy of not telling who their builder is. This is good and bad. It is good, because the "great" Korean builders are now sub-contracting a great deal of work, so a "Samhongsa" built loco may have very little Samhongsa work on it. It is bad, because the name on the box adds value - that is to say, part of the value of the locomotive in the future will be that it was built by the craftsmen at "so and so". Anyway, Precision seems to be courting PRR buyers with news of several locomotives in the near future. They will (or have already) release an H8, H9, H10 series, an all new R-1 electric, FF-2 electric and their version of the T-1 (probably more affordable than the Key model above). Well, That's all for now - I'm sure I've missed some items, but hey, I'm only human! Disclaimer (non-lawyers, skip this) - the above list is not intended as an endorsement of any of the products listed, nor is it intended to be complete. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 09:36:25 UT Subject: Re: PRR Newbie Content-Length: 93 JP, welcome to the group. We are always glad to have more fans of the Pennsy. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 10:01:52 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 113 I believe you are referring to the Clearfield Branch. CR abandoned it within the last five years. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 10:06:06 UT Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 351 I know several people who model the PRR as if it still existed. Ever see a SD70 five stripe in dk green locomotive enamel. Looks great. All of hem have maintained the Dk. green locomotive enamel color. Variations include five stripe, single stripe, no stripe Keystones only. One uses large block PRR on the locomotive long hood. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 10:10:56 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 88 Ok so I was on the wrong side of town. Need to get my internal GPS fixed. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 05 Aug 97 10:24:51 UT Subject: Re: Dates that shall live in infamy. Content-Length: 1954 Please include this in the "Dates of Infamy" plaques on your walls (if you are so minded) Andy is most certainly right! The NYC, Empire State Express, had its inaugural run on 12/07/41. In my original listing of "Dates of Infamy", I wanted a more significant comparison to the extension of the list than anything the Central ever did. Something that would jump out from the page at the reader with no misunderstanding of what I felt of the dates that followed on the list. The "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" did correspond with the December 7. 1941 attack on Hawaii. However, the Empire to be dealt with here was that of Imperial Japan. I felt that the "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" was just a nuisance to the PRR. I can see why some of us would want to add this to the list or give it sub-topic status with Pearl Harbor. In respect to the veterans of our nation, I would not personally post the NYC date with that of the plunging of our nation into world war. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > To: Members of group > Subject: RE: Dates that shall live in infamy. > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 4:44 AM > > Harry, > > You have one of your "events" of infamy wrong: > > December 7, 1941 "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" ;-) > > regards > Andy Miller > > >Dates that shall live in infamy. > > > > > >December 7, 1941 Pearl Harbor > > > >February 1, 1968 Penn Central > > > >May 1, 1971 Amtrak > > > >April 1, 1976 Conrail > > > >??????????CSX/NS/Hindenburg > > > >?????????? Union Pacific, only railroad > >in the 48 States with holdings in the > >other two states and all territories. > > > >????????? UP sold to foreign investors, > >no US railroads left. > > > > > > > >Harry Fitch > >hfitch@maranatha.net > >Acts 4:12 > > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Date: 05 Aug 97 10:44:33 UT Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 788 kkratts@alaska.net wrote: > > Is anyone else doing a "what if the PRR had survived" modeling scheme? > I've started one on paper. Anyone else interested in this? > > Kevin You mean it dident? Please don't tell the folks in Coal Valley Village. They have been depending on the PRR and the LV to pick up their coal and transport it to the "Big City" for over ten years. This is a three track O-Gauge line with an inter-urban to handle local passenger traffic which uses early year diesels to handle the loads. These people a quite glad that Pennsy still rolls through their town and the kids still love to run to the tracks to watch the geeps and E-9's rumble through. Might even see an occational steam engine too. jeff Levine jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 05 Aug 97 11:30:17 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 57 Thanks, Mike. I knew you'd come through. Dan Cupper !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 05 Aug 97 11:40:47 UT Subject: Re: FOM paint & decals Content-Length: 761 >> From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > Painting the minority area first has always been my technique. I > have painted many postwar three-stripe PRR cars (and other roads) > this way. I paint the PRR car gold first, then I mask the stripes > with 1/64" charting tape, then paint the car tuscan. Lots of precedent for this procedure. When we painted GG1 4859 (the real one) for display in Harrisburg station, this is exactly how it was done -- primer first, then gold, then red, then dark green locomotive enamel, then pull the tape, stripe by glorious stripe. Those guys at the Strasburg RR shop really knew what they were doing -- it's been 11 years and the paint job still looks great. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net John 3:16 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 11:58:05 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 405 >> On 5 Aug, mxb13@psu.edu wrote: >> [ ... ] the bridge remained in use as a place >> to dump covered hoppers... and dennis@bbn.com wrote: > This sounds as bizarrely Pennsy as the coaling "tower" > consisting of a trestle where they spotted coal hoppers. Not so. This was pretty common for unloading covered hoppers--especially for industries which didn't receive great quantities. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 13:54:20 UT Subject: PRR X26C underframe Content-Length: 241 Can anyone verify or dispute that the X26C and the X29B have the same underframe? If they are, with the release of the X29B by C&BT shops this fall, the X26C can be modeled by replacing the dreadnaught ends with Murphy ends. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bnixon@pop.pitt.edu Date: 05 Aug 97 13:56:39 UT Subject: Search for Information for old Engineer Content-Length: 1198 Hi, I got this note from a lady in Georgia who is tracking her history. Can anyone provide any insight for more info? Bill Nixon FROM: Susan Leeds, 161 Dailey Mill Rd., McDonough, GA 30253: My great grandfather, Patrick Findley, worked on the Pennsylvania Railroad for many years, mostly in the late 1800's. He started on the Allegheny - Portage Road, one of the first in the country. He remained until 1862 when after dismantling the road, he was given a position in Pittsburgh. He ran a locomotive on the Pittsburgh & Ohio before it became the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Rd. In March 1873, he moved to Ashtabula, Ohio and engineered the first passenger engine over the Pittsburgh, Youngstown & Ashtabula Railroad from Ashtabula Harbor to Lawrence Junction. Poor eyesight caused his retirement in 1892. He was also a member of the Voluntary Relief Department for men of the Pennsylvania Railroad. He died in 1909 and was buried in St. Joseph's Cemetery in Ashtabula, OH. Can you please give me any help concerning this man and his long and interesting career for the PRR? Do you know of anyone who could be contacted for information? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 14:29:10 UT Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 462 In a message dated 97-08-04 19:46:59 EDT, you write: << Is anyone else doing a "what if the PRR had survived" modeling scheme? I've started one on paper. Anyone else interested in this? >> A while back someone added tuscan coloring and gold keystones to a photo of a GE Genesis cab unit diesel and posted it to his web page. I think it may have been Crhis Brandt. The web's bust now so I can't check. Try: www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: kkratts@alaska.net Date: 05 Aug 97 16:36:32 UT Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 587 eminton@hula.net wrote: > > Aloha, > > I Model the Pennsy there wasn't any merger and the RailRoad IS the > Standard. Passenger cars are Stainless with Tuscan window bands Red & > white PRR Keystones similar to the ones on the Genesis someone has on a > web page. > > Eric > > kkratts@alaska.net wrote: > > > Is anyone else doing a "what if the PRR had survived" modeling scheme? > > > > I've started one on paper. Anyone else interested in this? > > > > Kevin Eric, Sounds great. My email is kkratts@alaska.net. Drop me a line and we'll email. Kevin !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mjbst73@vms.cis.pitt.edu Date: 05 Aug 97 16:53:17 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 228 I doubt it, because it spans a river (juniata???). There's a steep hilside, as I remember, where the tracks probably continued, but I couldn't see any signs of that remaining. The bridge does not cross the road anymore. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 05 Aug 97 18:13:44 UT Subject: Dates of Infamy Content-Length: 1953 Please include this in the "Dates of Infamy" plaques on your walls (if you are so minded) Andy is most certainly right! The NYC, Empire State Express, had its inaugural run on 12/07/41. In my original listing of "Dates of Infamy", I wanted a more significant comparison to the extension of the list than anything the Central ever did. Something that would jump out from the page at the reader with no misunderstanding of what I felt of the dates that followed on the list. The "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" did correspond with the December 7. 1941 attack on Hawaii. However, the Empire to be dealt with here was that of Imperial Japan. I felt that the "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" was just a nuisance to the PRR. I can see why some of us would want to add this to the list or give it sub-topic status with Pearl Harbor. In respect to the veterans of our nation, I would not personally post the NYC event with the one plunging of our nation into world war. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > To: Members of group > Subject: RE: Dates that shall live in infamy. > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 4:44 AM > > Harry, > > You have one of your "events" of infamy wrong: > > December 7, 1941 "Inauguration of the Empire State Express" ;-) > > regards > Andy Miller > > >Dates that shall live in infamy. > > > > > >December 7, 1941 Pearl Harbor > > > >February 1, 1968 Penn Central > > > >May 1, 1971 Amtrak > > > >April 1, 1976 Conrail > > > >??????????CSX/NS/Hindenburg > > > >?????????? Union Pacific, only railroad > >in the 48 States with holdings in the > >other two states and all territories. > > > >????????? UP sold to foreign investors, > >no US railroads left. > > > > > > > >Harry Fitch > >hfitch@maranatha.net > >Acts 4:12 > > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 18:51:57 UT Subject: It's called a coal dock.( was Re: Tyrone bridge question ) Content-Length: 830 In a message dated 97-08-05 18:16:22 EDT, you write: << This sounds as bizarrely Pennsy as the coaling "tower" consisting of a trestle where they spotted coal hoppers. >> The proper terminology is "Coal Dock." In hilly areas a trestle would be extended out from a hill so full hoppers could be unloaded by gravity. One of the largest coal docks was at Denholm, Pa. Not all were built out from hills. I've modeled the 500-foot-long inclined coal dock which rose from was at the center of the PRR's flat steam loco service facilities at Xenia, Ohio, until it was razed after dieselization of the Columbus aand Cincinnati divisions circa 1951. Coal docks were not uniquely Pennsy, just unfamiliar in today's relative clear and odorless atmosphere. Tom "I hate the smell of bituminous coal in the morning" V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 05 Aug 97 19:01:58 UT Subject: Chris' PRR Genesis fantasies (was Re: what if. . .) Content-Length: 241 Attention members of What if Pennsy SIG, Check out Chris Brandt's Keystone-adorned Ge Genesis that can be viewed at the following URLs: www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/genprr1.jpg www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/genprr2.jpg Enjoy! Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mjbst73@vms.cis.pitt.edu Date: 05 Aug 97 20:29:54 UT Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 47 Thank you very much. I enjoyed your reply. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 23:14:24 -0400 Subject: ALERT TO LIST CONSTITUENTS From: Hostmaster Content-Length: 1194 Not exactly by plan, I upgraded my listserv today to a commercial product. I had been running a beta of a development application, but its development had stalled and I was starting to feel the sting of its shortcomings. I had planned to do this changeover in a week or two, but problems of today forced my hand. I have copied all subscriptions over from the old to the new servers. Everything should be okay. The command and subscriber accounts are the same. I recommend everyone send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com" just to retrieve the instructions so you have them. I will update the instructions on the Web pages over the next few days. It also may take a day or two to discover any anomolies with this new software. NOTE: Your e-mail client will now know the difference between REPLY TO SENDER vs. REPLY TO ALL (the list). Watch what you do! Let me know of any problems or concerns. Thanks. -------------------- Jerry Britton, hostmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. hostmaster@dsop.com For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 23:39:24 -0400 Subject: TEST POST--PLEASE EXCUSE From: Jerry Britton Content-Length: 363 ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:37:19 +0100 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 1331 >Did trucks park under the bridge? Was >there a chute of some sort, or just laborers with shovels? I never saw the unloading in action so I can't speak to this point. But there is/was room for a truck under the bridge. One other point: the Tyrone borough sewerage treatment plant used to be located adjacent to this bridge. Maybe they rec'd some dry material, lime or something, via covered hopper on this bridge. I mention this because just about the time the treatment plant was moved a half mile or so down the road, the hoppers stopped appearing on the bridge. A couple of clarifications: yes, the bridge spans (spanned) the Little Juniata River. And Rich, just fyi, the PRR (PC) ran its last train over the Clearfield Branch between Tyrone and Osceola Mills in June 1969. The track was abandoned shortly thereafter in favor of working out of the water level route's Clearfield yard. The Tyrone-Osceola segment included the legendary "Big Fill" and mini-horseshoe curve and a +2% grade. I don't have my track chart handy but I'm pretty sure it was in the 2.6 - 2.8% range. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: It's called a coal dock.( was Re: Tyrone bridge question ) Content-Length: 763 > The proper terminology is "Coal Dock." In hilly areas a trestle would be > extended out from a hill so full hoppers could be unloaded by gravity. One of > the largest coal docks was at Denholm, Pa. Not all were built out from hills. > I've modeled the 500-foot-long inclined coal dock which rose from was at the > center of the PRR's flat steam loco service facilities at Xenia, Ohio, until > it was razed after dieselization of the Columbus aand Cincinnati divisions > circa 1951. I thought it was a "Coal wharf"? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SORRY, ANOTHER TEST From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:14:02 -0400 Content-Length: 491 Sorry folks, made a "tweak" and need to test performance. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:54:55 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: It's called a coal dock.( was Re: Tyrone bridge question ) Content-Length: 1127 There are pictures of the coal dock at Erie, PA near the turn of the century, at the following site: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html (or follow the link to the American Memory Collection of the Library of Congress on K.C.) Search for "Erie Pennsylvania Railroad" and look at the first four entries. TVondruska@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-05 18:16:22 EDT, you write: > > << This sounds as bizarrely Pennsy as the coaling "tower" > consisting of a trestle where they spotted coal hoppers. > >> > The proper terminology is "Coal Dock." In hilly areas a trestle would be > extended out from a hill so full hoppers could be unloaded by gravity. One of > the largest coal docks was at Denholm, Pa. Not all were built out from hills. > ... > Tom "I hate the smell of bituminous coal in the morning" V. -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:07:44 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 365 Did Proto 2000 ever release a PRR Alco FA1/FB1 set? If so, how close to prototype? Thanks! -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:13:08 +0100 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 823 Drew wrote: >This access road then crossed the tracks and traveled on to a few homes. I >believe Conrail remove this unprotected crossing (didn't even have >crossbucks) after one of the locals got their car stuck on the tracks and >was hit by a train. This access road near the bridge in question is till there, and the grade crossing of CR's Pittsburgh line is still intact--just west of former FORGE interlocking. Plummer's Crossing, I believe. The road goes nowhere, just to a few hunting camps. It's private and gated once you cross the tracks. But a decent photo location. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: NMRA Convention PRR news From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 10:19:51 -0400 Content-Length: 572 >Precision Scale - . . . They will (or have already) release an H8, H9, H10 >series, an all new R-1 electric, FF-2 electric and their version of the T-1 >(probably more affordable than the Key model above). - ---- I once bought a Volkswagon that was more affordable than the Key T-1! But it was steel, not brass. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:36:42 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 896 On 6 Aug, Jerry Shickler wrote: > Did Proto 2000 ever release a PRR Alco FA1/FB1 set? If so, how close to > prototype? Thanks! I believe that P2K/LL released the FA-2 and FB-2, in both HO and N scales. I only have the N scale version. The only problem with the paint job is that the keystone is on the wrong end of one side of the B unit; the sides are identical, rather than reversed. It's also an excellent runner and a great puller. Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: NMRA Convention PRR news From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 10:41:44 -0400 Content-Length: 1336 originally posted to PRR-Talk cc: freightcars@fred.photo.tntech.edu Bruce Smith said (in part): >C&BT (at least I think that is who it was) was advertising an x-29b. They >had the first test shot there, which had some errors in it that they will >correct. These cars represent nearly complete rebuilds of the bodies of >the X-29. > - ------- Bruce, Were you able to assess the quality of the C&BT X29b's? Previous C&BT kits were notable for there poor paint jobs and crude castings. They were certainly not in the Intermountain/Red Caboose/P2K/Tichy category. I recently bought one of their revised kits for SFRD rebuilt reeefers and it was vastly improved. Their paint job is now quite commendable and they now include Tichy brake gear and Grandt Line ladders and hinges. Unfortunatly this throws their instructions off as they still refer to the old parts (still included on the sprue!). An obsure note appended to the bottom of the instuctions notifies the customer of the existance of the new parts but gives no further instuctions for their use. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:43:20 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 563 > > Did Proto 2000 ever release a PRR Alco FA1/FB1 set? If so, how close to > > prototype? Thanks! > > Only FA/FB2, P2K never did a FA/FB1. Paint scheme was right, I have not checked > beyond that. > Does anyone know approximately what years the FA2's ran on the Pennsy? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:51:05 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: PRR "What IF" Content-Length: 811 jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us wrote: > > the kids still love to run to the tracks to watch the geeps and E-9's > rumble through. Might even see an occational steam engine too. > > jeff Levine jlevine@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Jeff, you've got PRR "What If" with those E-9's, too! Pennsy's EP22 class were all E-8's, according to two sources I found handy: Al Staufer's _Pennsy Power II_, and Trains Magazine, April, 1964, "Who's Got the Most Locomotives?" They never got to E-9's. Actually, I would like to be able to be there and watch along with you. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:15:00 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 740 In a message dated 97-08-06 11:47:10 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know approximately what years the FA2's ran on the Pennsy? >> The PRR FA2/FB2 locomotives were delivered in 3 batches during 5, 11, 12/51 These were all phase Ib -- no Farr grills and horizonital vents on the battery box. BTW Phase i verticle battery box vents phase 1b horizontal battery box vents Phase 2 Farr grills I do not kno when they disappeared. All of the PC FA2 were fo NYC lineage. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:19:43 -0400 From: "Drew R. McGhee" Subject: Re: Tyrone bridge question Content-Length: 2048 Greetings to Dennis and the group, There was reminants of a chute several years ago. Haven't been back that road recently. The dump was on the first or second span before it crossed the Little Juniata River. A truck could pull in under the bridge span and receive it's cargo directly from the car spotted on the bridge. I would agree with Mike B. that the nearby (in Ironville) Tyrone Milling was probably the ones who used it. Access was from a one lane bridge from PA Route 453 just south of Tyrone. This bridge also crosses the Little Juniata. This unloading chute was on the Main Line side of the River not the PA 453 side. There was room on the Main Line side of the River for trucks to manuver around and get under the span. This access road then crossed the tracks and traveled on to a few homes. I believe Conrail remove this unprotected crossing (didn't even have crossbucks) after one of the locals got their car stuck on the tracks and was hit by a train. As I mentioned, haven't been back there for a while though drive past it every time I head to the in-laws. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 09:02 AM 8/5/97 UT, you wrote: >On 5 Aug, mxb13@psu.edu wrote: > >> [ ... ] the bridge remained in use as a place >> to dump covered hoppers loaded with--well, I'm not sure. I want to say >> grain for local feed stores, or ammonium nitrate for explosives in nearby >> quarries. But I don't know for sure. So, often when driving rt 453, one >> could look up and see a hopper car or two spotted on the bridge. > >Now, I'm intrigued. Did trucks park under the bridge? Was >there a chute of some sort, or just laborers with shovels? >This sounds as bizarrely Pennsy as the coaling "tower" >consisting of a trestle where they spotted coal hoppers. > >Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:35:42 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 932 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-06 11:47:10 EDT, you write: > > << Does anyone know approximately what years the FA2's ran on the Pennsy? > >> > The PRR FA2/FB2 locomotives were delivered in 3 batches during 5, 11, 12/51 I believe the FA1/FB1's were made as early as 1947, but looking through the numerical rosters on KC, it appears that PRR didn't acquire them until 1951 as well. Is this correct? I'm looking to acquire the very earliest (late 40's?) appropriate diesels which may have run through Erie, which are reasonably accurate and affordable. (HO scale, not the real thing ;-)) Any other suggestions? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:22:41 -0600 From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu (Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.) Subject: RE: NMRA Convention PRR news Content-Length: 1571 >Were you able to assess the quality of the C&BT X29b's? Previous C&BT kits >were notable for there poor paint jobs and crude castings. They were certainly >not in the Intermountain/Red Caboose/P2K/Tichy category. The casting they had was the "test shot" and had problems like incorrect side sills, which they pointed out to me, and said would be corrected. The casting was done the night before the convention, so it was a rush job. We'll just have to wait for the real thing (a few months to go yet). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:06:26 -0400 (EDT) From: TVondruska@aol.com Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 2688 In a message dated 97-08-06 13:20:22 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know approximately what years the FA2's ran on the Pennsy? > >> > The PRR FA2/FB2 locomotives were delivered in 3 batches during 5, 11, 12/51 I believe the FA1/FB1's were made as early as 1947, but looking through the numerical rosters on KC, it appears that PRR didn't acquire them until 1951 as well. Is this correct? >> Thumbing through "The Diesel Builders, Vol. 2: American Locomotive Works," by John F. Kirkland, I found the following entry on page121 in a section headlined: Model FA-1 and FB-1, Specifications DL208B and DL209B (1,500 hp) ...The manufacture of locomotive in accordance to specifications Specifications DL208B and DL209B began with the delivery of two A-B-B-A sets to the Pennsylvania Railroad in July and August 1948. The A units were numbered 9600A-9603A, c/n 75987-75990; The B Units were numbered 9600B-9603B, c/n 76038-76041 Model FA-1 and FB-1, Specifications DL208C and DL209C. In order to be competitive, Alco increased the rating the 12-cylinder Vee model 244 engine to 1,600 hp in 1949. The maximum speed remained 1,000 rpmand the weights and specifications remained unchanged from specifications DL 208B and DL209B. The first production consisted of a 6,400 hp llocomotive in an A-B-B-A configuration, delivered to the Pennsylvania Railroad in March 1950 and idenbtified by road nos.9604A-9604B-9605B-9605-A and c/ns 77010-76893-76894-77011.\\ According to an article by Dave Peck in the January 1984 Mainline Modeler (pp. 40-49, prototype drawing pp.48-49, the Pennsylvania Railroad took delivery of 24 FA-2 units, numbered 9608-9631 in May, November and December of 1951 and 12 FB-2 units numbered 9608B-9630B (even numbers only) in May, November and December of 1951. Remember, diesels took oover passenger power first. E7s appeared first, circa 1947 close on their heels. Centipedes and BP 20s, the 2,000 hp Passenger Sharks went into service on passenger mains south of Erie in 1947. Dare I say it? Oh, I'll go ahead. how 'bout Fairbanks Morse Erie-Builts. PRR took first delivery of this class in November 1947 afterit was built at the GE works in Erie. You do better with shifters. The first EMD 700 hp shifter went intol service in 1939, the first Baldwin, a VO 660 (hp) model in March 1943. The first FM switchers, the H-10-44 was delivered in June 1948. hop this helps Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 1142 In a message dated 97-08-06 13:20:22 EDT, geshick@velocity.net (Jerry Shickler) writes: << I believe the FA1/FB1's were made as early as 1947, but looking through the numerical rosters on KC, it appears that PRR didn't acquire them until 1951 as well. Is this correct? I'm looking to acquire the very earliest (late 40's?) appropriate diesels which may have run through Erie, which are reasonably accurate and affordable. (HO scale, not the real thing ;-)) Any other suggestions? >> PRR diesel acquisition dates 1928 A6 home built 1930 A6b home built 1937 SW 1941 NW2 1942 VO 660, SW1 1943 VO1000 1945 E7A 1947 E7B, DR12-8-3000, S1, F3A, F3B, PA1, PB1, ERIE BUILT A, ERIE BUILT B, 44 TON 1948 DS4-4-660, DS 4-4-1000, H10-44, DR6-4-2000A & B, S2, FA1, FB1, RS1, H20-44 For complete list and exact units see Vol. 3 Pennsy Diesel years pg 126-127 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 15:24:36 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 865 vember and December of 1951. > ... > Remember, diesels took oover passenger power first. E7s appeared first, > circa 1947 close on their heels. Centipedes and BP 20s, the 2,000 hp > Passenger Sharks went into service on passenger mains south of Erie in 1947. > Dare I say it? Oh, I'll go ahead. how 'bout Fairbanks Morse Erie-Builts. PRR > took first delivery of this class in November 1947 afterit was built at the > GE works in Erie. >... Thanks for all the info! I plan on getting the P2K E7 when it's out. I also was looking for Erie-builts, but can't find one. Any ideas? --- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 15:43:05 -0400 Content-Length: 1065 I hesitate to mention this, but, there is a company in Canada named NovaTech which makes a cast resin shell for an FM Erie-Built designed to fit on an Athearn PA Chasis. The reason I hesitate to mention it is that all the reviews and comments heard on the net say this company's products are terible. Thus forewarned, their web page URL is: www.novatech.on.ca/modelling/index.html Note that they provide no foto of their A unit model! regards Andy Miller . . . I >also was looking for Erie-builts, but can't find one. Any ideas? >--- >Jerry Shickler >Erie, PA >geshick@velocity.net > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 18:44:48 -0400 Subject: Summary of CD Orders From: Jerry Britton Content-Length: 711 I received CD orders from the following: Gary Baylor Bruce Smith Stephen Bartlett David Freshwater Scott Milligan Harry Fitch George Eichhorn If anyone else had a check in transit and their name does not appear in the list above, alert me IMMEDIATELY! Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:00:46 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 832 In a message dated 97-08-06 15:50:55 EDT, geshick@velocity.net (Jerry Shickler) writes: << Thanks for all the info! I plan on getting the P2K E7 when it's out. I also was looking for Erie-builts, but can't find one. Any ideas? --- >> Erie builts have never been available in plastic. Redball imported then in Brass a few years ago. I think someone is planning them in brass. Not sure. Nov Tech plastic in Knigston Ont. has the shells in resin. Buyer beware. I will never do business with them again. They still owe a $110 refund on returned items. ( have since early May) Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 08:50:32 -0400 Content-Length: 754 >In a message dated 97-08-06 15:50:55 EDT, geshick@velocity.net (Jerry >Shickler) writes: > > . . . I > also was looking for Erie-builts, but can't find one. Any ideas? > --- > Nov Tech plastic in Knigston Ont. has the shells in resin. Buyer beware. > I will never do business with them again. They still owe a $110 refund on >returned items. ( have since early May) > >Rich Orr > Rich, Perhaps if Jerry S buys something from them, they will have the money to send you your refund ;-) regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:49:16 -0600 From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu (Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.) Subject: Re: PRR X26C underframe Content-Length: 1637 Rich, I didn't want to jump in and say anything without doing my reseaerch, and now...I still don't know! But, I have some suspicions. The X-26 represents a 50 ton, basically USRA design, which was originally single (wood) sheathed. The X-26c is a massive rebuild to an all steel car. While these cars (X-26 and X-29) are the same length, I would be concerned that the X-29 underframe contained many "upgrades" over the X-26 and would therefore not be appropriate (just a guess). Does anyone in the group have detailed technical drawings of the X-26 and/or X-29? Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:54:39 -0600 From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu (Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.) Subject: Cabin & wire car drawings Content-Length: 1556 Hi all! Does anyone out there have detailed drawings of the PRR N-4 and/or N6-B cabin car UNDERFRAMES? I am trying to find some to accurately model each class. Also, does anyone have drawings or photographs showing the mechanical details of PRR wire cars? I am looking for details on the equipment and mechanism used on the modified FM flatcars which carried large wooden platforms to service the catenary. These cars are shown in both PRR color guides but the details are obscured Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:14:49 -0400 (EDT) From: BEMIDJIAN@aol.com Subject: More re PRR Twilight of Steam Content-Length: 753 NRHS Bulletin in 1982...Lloyd Stagner article...listed status of steam on all major roads still having it in 8/57. In that month, active on PRR were 5 B6, 30 H9 or H10 2-8-0's, 25 L1, 60 I1, 30 J1, 7 M1 and 12 K4s. Total steam ownership 8/31/57, including non-active was 15 b6, 68 assorted 2-8-0, 41 L1, 108 I1, all 125 J1, 23 K4, 45 M1 and one shop 0-6-0T. Serious PRR fans will want "Keystone Steam & Electric" by Bill Edson. Usually see copies of it at area (Toledo) rail flea markets. Don't know if it still in print. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:12:26 -0400 From: "Kaiser, Bud" Subject: RE: NMRA Convention PRR news Content-Length: 3991 Hello to all: I just wanted to add some aditional remarks to the great summary of PRR info that Bruce Smith offered. I also was at the convention but did not meet Bruce. Maybe next year we ought to have some meeting point or badge like the rec.models.railroad guys did. Bruce wrote; Model Railroad Stone Works, Langhorne PA, 215-321-1331 - as at PRRT&HS they had their BEAUTIFUL HO stone arch bridges. Next to be released (9/97), a high PRR stone arch bridge modeled after the Trenton cut-off at Langhorne - WOW!!! These people are to PRR fans what Micro engineering is to the rest of the world! Bob Jans is the person who is manufacturing these bridges and he has counted rocks in the original to offer these in kit form. The first one offered is the 30 degree angle skewed stone arch bridge located on the Middle Division east of Tyrone, PA. The kit has 2 arches and either 2 tracks ($49.95), 3 tracks ($54.95), or 4 tracks ($59.95) Al Westerfield had his XL Camp Cars, which have been described on this list previoulsly - look for a building update from me soon - I just finished the first kit, and they are great! I'd be interested in learning what brand and color paint Bruce (or anyone else) used on his model. I asked Westerfield what he used on his samples and he said he thought it was Union Pacific Yellow from Floquil. Anybody have a good choice for the MoW yellow? C&BT (at least I think that is who it was) was advertising an x-29b. They had the first test shot there, which had some errors in it that they will correct. These cars represent nearly complete rebuilds of the bodies of the X-29. It was C&BT Shops and they plan on offering a multitude of paint schemes including the '47, '50', and '54 versions of the Merchandise Service cars. Key Imports was showing off their T-1 models in both prototype (6110,6111) and production versions. Listing at $2200.00 - These were well done, with working tender hatches, visible stoker screw, and nice paint/lettering - worth 2k? Almost all of Key's stock has been sold (to dealers who are selling in the range of $1700). Very near the Key Imports booth was the Bowser booth where they were showing their new T1 boiler with details added. It looks great for the steam guys and at about $200 with details,tender and two DC71 motors should be a great buy. Bowser also showed their new PRR tender for the K4 and other locos. I couldn't find out the class and I don't know enough about them to identify it. It seems to me to be longer that the ones currently available with the kit. The casting looked very good to me. The T1 as well as the new tender will be available before Christmas. They might even have the T1 out in September. Additional items: The Sparrow Point Division of Bethlehem Car Works will be issuing the PRR K-11 all steel stock car before the end of the year. The will basically be a Bowser 40 ft. round roof with brass sides and will list for $24.95 less T&C. Stewart Hobbies has the Baldwin VO-1000 on their offering plate. No date announced. P2000 had their new GP9 on display. These are to be made available shortly. The engines looked great but I was disappointed in the color choice for the PRR version. They chose a lighter shade of green, reminded me of a Reading engine green, that they said would show up better in the low light levels of model realroads. I still prefer the dark loco green that we've seen in the past on models. I'll probably still buy one though. The overall convention was terrific - even got to be the engineer on an SD45 in the Wisconsin Central car shops!! What a thrill for us stay-in-the office-all-day-types. Happy Railroading! Bud Kaiser bud.kaiser@lmco.com Cherry Hill, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Spruce Creek it is! From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:16:29 -0400 Content-Length: 1110 Following everyone's excellent feedback on where to railran east of Altoona (that's a "thank you", BTW) and after reading Mike Bezilla's RailPace articles that was FAXed to me, I've decided to spend a few hours this Saturday at Spruce Creek -- weather permitting. Will likely spend some time at the Route 45 over look, other wise anywhere between the tunnels and the "natural area" just west of the town of Spruce Creek. Will try to get the video camera battery to take charge (normally doesn't). Who knows, maybe my kids can sell videos of Conrail as we know salivate over Pennsy videos! Anyone in the area is welcome to join me. Again, thanks for all the feedback. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:43:49 -0700 From: Sharon Subject: I1s to I1sa conversion Content-Length: 800 To the group, What were the changes required to change a class I1s to class I1sa? I understand that the cutoff was increased from the original 50%. How much was required to make this change? Was just the valve chamber bushing changed or were there major changes to the valve gear too? I have seen photos of pennsy built I1s engines with airtanks on the sides and alligator crossheads, how long did this configuration last? Were all the Baldwin built I1s engines built with the airtanks on the front and with the multiple bearing crosshead? Doug Edwards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Where do I get chart tape? Etc. From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:05:49 -0400 Content-Length: 1168 In a recent post, Bruce Smith (this list's Raymond Leowy Distinguished Professor of Car Painting and Lettering) astonished modelers that he first paints his Pennsy cars gold and then masks out the stripes with 1/64 chart tape and then repaints in Tuscan or Dark Locomotive Enamel. Bruce: Where do I get chart tape? Is this a basic graphic arts item, or do I need to go to an architectural supply store? Seem to recall a preference towards Polly Scale paint (or was it Polly S)...what are the EXACT paint names or numbers of appropriate colors of Tuscan Red, Dark Locomotive Enamel (a.k.a. Brunswick Green), and "gold"? BTW: With these painting revelations and with complex issues with decals, I have shelved the decal project. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Where do I get chart tape? Etc. From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 16:17:55 -0400 Content-Length: 1303 Jerry said (in part): >In a recent post, Bruce Smith (this list's Raymond Leowy Distinguished >Professor of Car Painting and Lettering) astonished modelers that he first >paints his Pennsy cars gold and then masks out the stripes with 1/64 chart >tape and then repaints in Tuscan or Dark Locomotive Enamel. > >Bruce: Where do I get chart tape? Is this a basic graphic arts item, or do I >need to go to an architectural supply store? > >Jerry Britton, - ------ Jerry, You didn't follow the trail of e-mail replys. It was me (Andy) who suggested the 1/64 charting tape, and Bruce who confirmed that he too paints the minority color (gold) first. I get my tape at a stationery store. It comes in many widths, colors, and patterns. Of course for our use as masking tape, only the various widths are of interest. It is (was) used to draw business charts in the days before computer graphics. I fear that it is becoming harder to find. Macs and now Windows equipped PCs are driving this commodity into the buggy whip museum :-( regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Where do I get chart tape? Etc. From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 16:22:54 -0400 Content-Length: 640 I might remark that I also have used charting tape for striping deisels. The 1/64 makes a respectable 5 stripe, and the 1/32 is good for the single stripe freight variant. I place the tape on a piece of glass (or plastic, or brass) first; and then use a single edge razor blase to taper the end of the tape for the nose before applying it to the side of the gold (dulux?) painted diesel. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:58:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Re: Where do I get chart tape? Etc. Content-Length: 1057 << In a message dated 97-08-07 16:21:58 EDT, you write: << >Bruce: Where do I get chart tape? Is this a basic graphic arts item, or do I >need to go to an architectural supply store? >> Jerry, If you are unable to find any chart tape, you might try using: A steel ruler about 18 inches long, a pane of glass (wives frown on the use of Formica sink tops), some low tack tape and a new #11 Exacto blade. Place the tape on the glass(lightly), using the ruler to insure that is fairly straight. Mark off whatever width you desire on either end of the tape. Place the ruler on the marks and cut. Don't use the outside edges of the tape as they sometimes have lint or dust affixed. Using this method you're not stuck with only a fixed commercial size. Try it, you'll like it. ;-) George >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Where do I get chart tape? Etc. Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:08:06 -0400 Content-Length: 1310 Masking and painting. "To the best of my knowledge" or until fifteen minutes transpires on this list, this is what I believe was done in real practice under certain conditions concerning lettering and striping. This is common railroad painting practice from years ago, when the PRR painted a GG1 they would paint the general area with the striping color and then mask to retain the stripes. Steam locomotives would have the tender and cab areas painted that would receive lettering and numbering, have masking applied and then have the finish applied to the engine and tender. When the masking was removed you would have the finished product. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net ---------- > Jerry said (in part): > > >In a recent post, Bruce Smith (this list's Raymond Leowy Distinguished > >Professor of Car Painting and Lettering) astonished modelers that he first > >paints his Pennsy cars gold and then masks out the stripes with 1/64 chart > >tape and then repaints in Tuscan or Dark Locomotive Enamel. > >Jerry Britton, > - ------ > > Jerry, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Pennsy steam power? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:22:24 -0400 Content-Length: 1099 Dear List Members, I have asked about this detail on the PRR List before but have never received a satisfactory answer. How did the damper work on Pennsy steam power? Am I correct in calling this a damper? What was the purpose? When did they disappear? Did anything take it's place? Jerry Britton has been kind enough to post a photo at this URL for your viewing and consideration. "http://prr.dsop.com/question/prr_k4s_inspection.jpg". This photo of a K4s shows the device on the exterior of the boiler jacket near the smokebox. ( I have placed a pointer in the image) Perhaps someone on the list will be able to submit comments. Thank you for your consideration of this idea. It is a small detail but one of great curiosity for me. Regards, Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:15:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: P2K Alco FA1 Content-Length: 444 I purchased an Proto 2000 A-B-B-A set yesterday, A units were numbered 9648 and 9640. B units are numbered 9640b and 9648b. These apparently would not be numbered correctly for an A-B-B-A set , is this correct? Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Alco Fanatics Windbag Posting Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:23:24 -0400 Content-Length: 2174 For those on the list who are committed Alco fanatics/lunatics. (or Alco fans who should be committed) I just spent another day on a USCG vessel equipped with twin 251F, 16 cylinder, Alco main propulsion engines rated at 2500HP Schenectady (Alco) is no more but their legacy is still living on. GE, the very company that built the electrical gear (generators, motors, controls) for Alco-GE locomotives and helped push Alco out of the locomotive market with their competing products, now has come full circle to own the Alco diesel engine. GE has the engines now for commercial, marine and industrial uses. All parts come through GE for the ships stores for the USCG. All of their 210MMA conversions are Alco powered. The earliest of the 210 fleet had their Cooper-Bessemer main engines replaced by Alco 251's in their refit at the Curtis Bay Yard in Baltimore during the last 8 years. Where have you heard that name Cooper Bessemer before? GE got them too and used them as a test bed many years ago to launch their own FDL diesel engine used for some time in GE locomotives from the U25B and up. (What does GE not own?) It is somehow very nostalgic to stand on the walkway in the engine room and look down on two very much alive, well maintained and reconditioned Alco prime movers. Sort of like looking down from an office in a back shop and seeing Alco locomotives with the hoods removed. >From this experience- It does not take much to day dream about a cab ride on a Pennsy 251 equipped Alco road unit. Especially a trailing unit so that you can smell the exhaust fumes, hear that 4 cycle Alco chug and prove to the non railroad fanatic that your nuts! Yes folks, it was very hot in that engine room today as you can tell by my rambling/writing and what is left of my senses are dimmed due to heat prostration. (or I like Alco Products) Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy steam power? Content-Length: 1339 In a message dated 97-08-07 19:22:02 EDT, you write: << I have asked about this detail on the PRR List before but have never received a satisfactory answer. How did the damper work on Pennsy steam power? Am I correct in calling this a damper? What was the purpose? When did they disappear? Did anything take it's place? Jerry Britton has been kind enough to post a photo at this URL for your viewing and consideration. >> Harry, I believe that the object you make reference to is a Superheater damper. It works on the same principle as the butterfly valves in a carburetor. On many locomotives it is controlled by a small steam piston on the right side of the smokebox, through a small steam pipe from the steam chest. When the throttle is closed off, the butterfly also closes to prevent fire from burning the thin-walled superheater tubes. No draft, no fire here. This damper isn't needed when a front-end throttle is used. It is only used for engines with dome throttles and superheaters. Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Superheater damper Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:46:46 -0400 Content-Length: 690 Thanks to everybody that responded to my question. It sounds perfectly logical to have this system installed on the type of superheater used in the K4s. If anybody else has some notes on specifics of operation, the group would probably appreciate your efforts. I bet there are folks out there that could lend a pointer or two about the difference between a Schmidt type "A" or "E" superheater. Thanks, Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Alco Fanatics Windbag Posting Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:22:04 -0400 Content-Length: 2373 That's OK, Harry, and for anyone who's been seaside for any length of time, hearing what for all the world sounds like a brace of F7's, of FA's, or U's coming up through the channel, is rather commonplace. Except I didn't know that when I first started working at Fortress Monroe (C&O Milepost Zero, by the way), with a seawall on the Chesapeake Bay, so I kept wondering why I was hearing all those trains, complete with multi-chime air horns. There I was, looking at big ships, but hearing Horseshoe Curve. Only later did someone tell me that many tug boats, tow boats, and other utility vessels are powered by the same prime movers/generators as the locomotives of our youth. Sounds the same. Really a mind blowing expereince for the unwary. Later, Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among others > ---------- > From: Harry W. Fitch IV[SMTP:hfitch@maranatha.net] > I just spent another day on > a USCG vessel equipped with twin > 251F, 16 cylinder, Alco main > propulsion engines rated at 2500HP > Schenectady (Alco) is no more but > their legacy is still living on. > It is somehow very nostalgic to stand on the walkway > in the engine room and look down on two very much > alive, well maintained and reconditioned Alco prime movers. > Sort of like looking down from an office in a back shop and seeing > Alco locomotives with the hoods removed. > From this experience- > It does not take much to day dream about a cab ride > on a Pennsy 251 equipped Alco road unit. Especially > a trailing unit so that you can smell the exhaust fumes, > hear that 4 cycle Alco chug and prove to the non railroad > fanatic that your nuts! > Yes folks, it was very hot in that engine room today > as you can tell by my rambling/writing and what is > left of my senses are dimmed due to heat prostration. > (or I like Alco Products) > > > > Harry Fitch > hfitch@maranatha.net > Acts 4:12 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:06:11 -0400 (EDT) From: RLMower@aol.com Subject: Harrisburg Diesel Shop Content-Length: 634 FYI The former PRR diesel shop and what was left of the roundhouse is being razed by Conrail. I drove by this evening and the side walls are knocked down. All thats left is the end walls and the roof, you can see all the walkways thru the open sides. The remains of the roundhouse are completely gone. There are destruction machines there on the spot so it should be gone in a couple of days :< Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:36:25 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1230 Hello all stations: I have added the following new images to my site; Amtrak E-60 #607 leaving 30th st Station Phila. Pa. BN SW-10 #387 in Portland Oregon Overhead view of inside Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. New Jersey Transit GP-40-PH CP 4-6-2 #1246 PRR E-7 #5901 Conrail GP-15-1 #1633 in Operation Lifesaver Paint Conrail local on Northeast Corridor, meeting Metroliner Another Penn Central Postcard, on the RailCard Page. Enjoy ! Stan -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 08:13:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Harrisburg Diesel Shop From: Jerry Britton Content-Length: 1378 From: RLMower@aol.com > The former PRR diesel shop and what was left of the roundhouse is being razed > by Conrail. I drove by this evening and the side walls are knocked down. Very sad to hear. I'm too young (a 1962 model) to remember the Pennsy, so I've had to depend on remnants. I've lived in the Harrisburg area all my life, so I am quite familiar with the Reilly Street engine facility. I visited there once in high school and was approached by a Conrail employee. Instead of "taking off" thinking I would be in trouble, he invited me inside, gave me a hard hat, and allowed me to "go anywhere". I remember going inside an F unit through the nose door. It was quite an experience. I hand-mapped all the trackage at the time (which I still have) and took several pics of the roundhouse (fortunately). It was 180 degrees plus 2 stalls at the time. Had a great turntable. Too bad the razing wasn't announced. 8-( ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 21:23:00 -0400 From: Mike & Lynne Calo Subject: Section cut switches in catenary, NEC Content-Length: 733 MARC recently built new platforms at Odenton, MD. One of these platforms was built around two catenary masts, one of which held (holds?) a section cut switch; the control rods which once extended to control levers at the base of the mast have been cut off approximately fifteen feet above the platform. My question is: was this switch no longer operational, which makes its removal a moot point, or will someone now have to climb the catenary mast to activate the switch when necessary? Mike Calo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:10:04 -0400 Subject: Northern Central Railway From: Jerry Britton Content-Length: 2200 Went to Northern Central Railway Heritage Days down in New Freedom. Yesterday was billed as the "bigger" of the two days, but I couldn't make it. Yesterday only was a Railroadania Show (which I learned had only 15 or so tables) and a Staged Grade Crossing Crash. I'm told the grade crossing crash, in conjunction with Conrail's Operation Lifesaver, was a big hit. The ran an Alco FA unit into a car at 15mph and did a pretty good job on it. The local fire company then took over and "extricated" the dummy inside. Anyway, I went today. It was somewhat disappointing, but I learned that this was the first year and it was thrown together in two months. Plans for next year's starts next week and I think it will do well. Got to ride shotgun in the cab of the Alco FA unit as we backed a fan train north to Glen Rock and then headed back south to New Freedom. Cool! The Liberty Limited train will be gaining two Budd dining cars soon, as well as a B unit up front. The B unit, however, has had its diesels removed and will be used as a generator car only. However, it will add to the appearance of the dinner train. The operations of the Liberty Limited, which now stop two miles south of York City, will be extended into York's passenger station within the month. That is exciting news, as street running will return to Persing Avenue!!! Construction (renovation) of the New Freedom Station will begin the first week of October. The exterior is slated for completion around December. The freight portion will become a museum. The passenger portion will be renovated to a 1930s look. The group doing the restoration hopes the passenger portion can be leased to the dinner train for actual use as a ticket station. All for now... ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:11:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Hal6963@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR Dining Cars Content-Length: 543 Some time ago Andy Miller asked if the PRR Dining Cars operated by the Florida Central RR in there Dinner Train were stainless steel with fluted sides. The photographs I just picked up show that to be the case. I guess that makes them D85a cars. The cars are in excellant shape, both interior and exterior. Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: More about New Freedom From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:45:13 -0400 Content-Length: 1888 Forgot to mention in yesterday's post... The Liberty Limited Dinner Train has been using one track out of New Freedom and north to Hyde, just south of York. A second track at New Freedom had been used for car storage, but not active use. The second track at New Freedom Station has been reballasted and is now in active use. The dinner train was using the main track and an all-coach excursion train was using the second track. The second track extends north about a quarter-mile where it switches back to the main. Also, a spur from the main extending down the west side to the northern end of the station is being returned to service. This track will parallel the main and come alongside the old freight platform. Don't know the intended use yet. Could be storage of additional cars or perhaps (likely) relocation of the dinner train's office and ticket sales cars which are currently in the middle of the station yard. Last, but not least, the entire grade between New Freedom and Hyde has been rated at only 15mph. Remember, the original NCR trains ran a lot faster. A big problem for the dinner train is that the super-elevated tracks cause slow trains to lean excessively. They are actively working on removing most of the super-elevation. They have been successfull in removing about half of the 6-inch superelevation for the New Freedom to Glen Rock portion, and it is being inspected this week for upgrading to 25-30 mph use. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: Section cut switches in catenary, NEC (fwd) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:38:33 EDT Content-Length: 1078 > MARC recently built new platforms at Odenton, MD. One of these > platforms was built around two catenary masts, one of which held > (holds?) a section cut switch; the control rods which once extended to > control levers at the base of the mast have been cut off approximately > fifteen feet above the platform. > > My question is: was this switch no longer operational, which makes its > removal a moot point, or will someone now have to climb the catenary > mast to activate the switch when necessary? > > Mike Calo Someone will have to climb the catenary pole. Doubtless the maneuver was performed so that people wouldn't be tempted to cut the bolt and play with the switches. Funny, there were platforms there before. Did MARC extend the platforms, or build them in a different location? -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Passenger Cars & Train Phones From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:59:16 -0400 Content-Length: 667 Did the Pennsy put train phones on passenger cars? The Liberty Limited Dinner Train owns the Catulpa Falls, an ex-PRR class PS6L (six bedrooms, lounge). On its roof, running the entire length, is what appears to be a trainphone antenna. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Passenger Cars & Train Phones From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:12:04 -0400 Content-Length: 1143 Jerry asked: >Did the Pennsy put train phones on passenger cars? > >The Liberty Limited Dinner Train owns the Catulpa Falls, an ex-PRR class >PS6L (six bedrooms, lounge). On its roof, running the entire length, is what >appears to be a trainphone antenna. >--------------- It has always been my understanding that those antenna were for commercial AM broadcast reception and used by ordinary radios in the lounges. They appear on all of the lounge and observation cars. See the Broadway Ltd plans in MR a few years ago. A heavier variation appreared on the roof of heavyweight lounge cars. Modeleing them was always a challenge since they are not just "post and ball" stantions but rather something of a squared-off, upside-down Y. No one had ever cast them commercially in HO. I finally stumbled on a reasonable stand- in for them in the shortest GrandtLine queenposts. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Catulpa Falls From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:34:25 -0400 Content-Length: 764 Should've mentioned, the PS6L Catulpa Falls (at the Liberty Limited Dinner Train) still wears the Pennsy's post-war three stripe paint scheme. I took a photo which'll be on my site in a week or two. Unfortunately, there is very little Pennsy equipment at the New Freedom site. Hopefully this will change. There is also an N5B cabin. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Great Model Railroads 1998 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:47:43 -0400 Content-Length: 623 MR's Web site now has the index to this year's GMR issue. Among the list is this entry: "Kurt Mirisch's Kay Gee Canyon Line, an HO branch line of the Pennsy inspired by the East Broad Top." --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:54:25 -0400 From: Zeolla Subject: HO models Content-Length: 988 Hi, Just got back from a visit to my local hobby shop and was pleasantly surpised by the new stock of Pennsy HO locomotives. They had both the Proto 2000 SD7 and SD9 and also the P/2K E8. What a beauty!!! Unfortunately, they were all priced at $64, a little too steep for my blood. They also had, on consignment, a very new looking used Kato GP-35 in PRR colors. I've never owned a Kato, but understand they have a very good reputation. I had the clerk run it for me...very smooth, although I was disappointed that the headlights were not constant intensity and the number boards were blank. This one was priced at $85. If anyone is interested check out http://www.mitchells.com/ no pictures, but you'll get their phone number and address. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:33:10 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Merger Maps Content-Length: 699 Detailed maps of Conrail/NS/CSX merger are available at http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/conrail/states.html or there is a link on my website http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ Very interesting way they split it up. -Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N Campbell" Subject: RE:Passenger Cars and Train Phones Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:49:54 -0400 Content-Length: 737 On Aug. 11 ,1997 Andy Miller writes that he uses Grant Line Queen posts as a standin for the radio antenna .This is good for the pre-war cars but for post-war cars I use 1/16 channal from Plastruct , cut into 3 inch pieces then drill a holr in the center and put a Detail Assoc. 1106 ? eyelet in then run a length of .015 brass wire through them.You will enjoy this effect. By the way Your mide train lounge should be ready from USP by the end of the week. TRAVEL BY RAIL Neil Campbell ncampbell@iname ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:16:36 -0500 From: "S.A. McCall" Subject: Baldwin sharks Content-Length: 407 Greetings, Question, did all sharks(rf16's) have a keystone on the nose with the engine number, or did some of the keystones have PRR in them??? Thanks for any help. HOSAM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:54:55 -0400 (EDT) From: NortonWRC@aol.com Subject: Phila-NYC Mainline Content-Length: 1117 Hi PRR-list members, I'm new to the list and just getting into the PRR. I'm 24 and live in Lawrenceville, NJ and work in Princeton, NJ. My grandfather worked for the PRR, PC and Conrail. I've had an interest in trains since childhood, but grew up overseas so didn't have exposure to them so I'm just starting to learn much. I dream of modeling the PRR someday. In reading several books, I discovered that there used to be a station on the mainline for Lawrenceville and that the mainline used to go through Princeton. I assume that the mainline was then relocated out of Princeton for some reason, creating Princeton Junction which now connects the "Dinky" with the mainline. Is this information correct? Where was the Lawrenceville Station located? Where did the mainline run through Princeton? Why was the mainline relocated? Thanks, Andy Norton (nortonwrc@aol.com) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:48:43 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Baldwin sharks Content-Length: 624 The keystone with the unit number was applied to sharks, centepedes, Erie builts, E7, E8 cab units until 1950-51. I am not certain of the exact date. After that time the intertwined PRR replaced the unit number. All locos with the unit number in the keystone were dk green locomotive enamel. I have never seen any FA1, FA2, PA1, F3, F7 or FP7 with the unit number in the Keystone. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:53:40 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: Phila-NYC Mainline Content-Length: 1842 NortonWRC@aol.com wrote: > Hi PRR-list members, > > I'm new to the list and just getting into the PRR. I'm 24 and live in > > Lawrenceville, NJ and work in Princeton, NJ. My grandfather worked > for the > PRR, PC and Conrail. I've had an interest in trains since childhood, > but > grew up overseas so didn't have exposure to them so I'm just starting > to > learn much. I dream of modeling the PRR someday. > > In reading several books, I discovered that there used to be a station > on the > mainline for Lawrenceville and that the mainline used to go through > Princeton. I assume that the mainline was then relocated out of > Princeton > for some reason, creating Princeton Junction which now connects the > "Dinky" > with the mainline. > > Is this information correct? > Where was the Lawrenceville Station located? > Where did the mainline run through Princeton? > Why was the mainline relocated? > > Thanks, > Andy Norton (nortonwrc@aol.com) > Can't imagine the _mainline_ (read NEC) ever being that far north of its present location. I don't think that the location of the ROW has changed since the Camden & Amboy (pre PRR), ergo no mainline station in Princeton. My maps show a branch (PRR?) connecting with the Bel-Del in Trenton and terminating in Lawrenceville. No doubt there was at one time a station there. -Chris -- _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Phila-NYC Mainline From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:43:51 EDT Content-Length: 2333 On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:54:55 -0400 (EDT) NortonWRC@aol.com writes: >>>...<<< 1. Several good books on the subject at Firestone if you have access, also at the E-Quad library and Rider and Trenton State College libraries. Look in the card catalog under both Railroads and Pennsylvania Railroad. >Where was the Lawrenceville Station located? 2. Directions to Lawerence Station [PRR MP 50.2] from Lawrenceville: 206 North to Province Line Road, Right on Province Line to Quaker Bridge Road, Right on Quaker Bridge Road to Lawrence Station Road [this is the light immediately before the NEC overpass. Right on Lawrence Station Road. County fire school is on your right. Small warehouse / feedmill on your left. This is the approximate station site. Continue to Bakers Basin Road, Right on Bakers basin to canal bridge. The Enterprise Branch of the Bel-Del followed Tow Path [west side] side of the canal to this point. This was considered part of Trenton. Line abandoned with CR Reading Lawrenceville branch was former trolley [Trenton Princeton Fast Line] line to Princeton. Station area is in the village one block west of 206 by the bakery Line lasted until the construction of Rt 95 to provide coal to the Lawrenceville School. >Where did the mainline run through Princeton? 3. Berm bank, [east side] of the canal from downtown Trenton to Princeton Nursery in Kingston. Main line curved east toward Monmoth Junction, Rocky Hill Railway and Transportation Company track continued along canal to the Trap Rock quarry and across 518 to the Atlantic Terra Cotta works. The actual station was at Princeton Basin where Alexander Street crosses the canal. Princeton Branch originally connected here. Grade can be seen behind Rusty Scupper Restaraunt. >Why was the mainline relocated? Straighter line to New Brunswick ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services 1-800-484-7673-8270 Michael E. Allen MEAllen@Juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:03:16 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Pennsy M-1b Content-Length: 1050 Hello all. I am a new subscribee to this email group. I am a fan of the PRR and am also younger than the breakup of the PRR. I am 26 and model the early 1950s after a recent backdating from 1968. I am looking at backdating to about 1948 even, although that is still under consideration. I do not have a layout so I concentrate on building cars (mainly Intermountain, Tichy, Red Caboose, and Bowser) and locomotives in HO scale. My question has to do with the M1b Mountains. I just finished reading the NJ International book on M1s last night and it did not really cover this area. Where there any external (modelable) differences between the M1, M1a and the M1bs? I was curious because I am getting ready to purchase a Bowser M1 kit and modify it for the M1b. Thanks for all input in advance. Jeremy Helms ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Pennsy M-1b From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 08:38:57 -0400 Content-Length: 1679 The M1a and M1b had internal steam delivery pipes. The M1 had the traditional external steam delivery pipes. These are the large diameter pipes which connect to the top of the cylinder/piston chest. On the a and b they are inside to the cast cyinder saddle and therefore invisible on the model. Invisible details are the easiest to model in HO ;-) regards Andy Miller >Hello all. I am a new subscribee to this email group. I am a fan of the PRR >and am also younger than the breakup of the PRR. I am 26 and model the early >1950s after a recent backdating from 1968. I am looking at backdating to >about 1948 even, although that is still under consideration. I do not have a >layout so I concentrate on building cars (mainly Intermountain, Tichy, Red >Caboose, and Bowser) and locomotives in HO scale. > >My question has to do with the M1b Mountains. I just finished reading the NJ >International book on M1s last night and it did not really cover this area. > Where there any external (modelable) differences between the M1, M1a and the >M1bs? >I was curious because I am getting ready to purchase a Bowser M1 kit and >modify it for the M1b. Thanks for all input in advance. > >Jeremy Helms > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:56:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Phila-NYC Mainline Content-Length: 1280 While we discuss the line that followed the canal and rejoined the present mainline at Monmouth Junction (via Kingston), we should also mention the Mercer and Somerset Railway, which left the Belvedere Delaware at Somerset Jct S of Washington Crossing, ran N of Pennington (Marshall's Corner was the site of the famous "frog war" in Jan 1876 with the Reading at the crossing point), then continued to Millstone where it became the Millstone Branch of later years (now surviving only as the Jersey Avenue platform track). This ran only about 1874-1880, then was abandoned. I assume the main line followed the canal in this era? Anyway, to see a piece of it, look at the map on the inside covers of Warren Lee's "Down Along the Old Bel-Del", which also has other info about the line, and a timetable. John Bobsin Basking Ridge NJ (who once had the privilege to ride the gas-electric between Lambertville and Trenton, ca 1960!, and will never forgive himself for not riding the car to Red Bank from Trenton, it was observed at Trenton!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walsh, Bill" Subject: new york-long branch Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:04:48 -0400 Content-Length: 436 I intend to start modeling the PRR and CNJ between New York and Long Branch. Does anyone have any idea on how and where I might get relevant information? Thanks, Bill Walsh walshb@medimmune.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: new york-long branch From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:46:19 -0400 Content-Length: 941 > I intend to start modeling the PRR and CNJ between New York and Long >Branch. Does anyone have any idea on how and where I might get relevant >information? > > Thanks, > Bill Walsh walshb@medimmune.com - ----- Bill, Most PRR books contain lots of fotos of the NY&LB. Ones that come to mind are Don Wood's "I Remember Pennsy" and Carleton's "Pennsy A - T". Now to the more serious question. Unless your rich uncle just died and you are prepared to run "collectables" i.e. brass, where do you plan to get Baldwin BP20's, CNJ Baldwin Baby Faces, or PRR MP54s?? Fortunatly the LB also ran PRR E7s, E8s and Alco PAs. On all 3 counts P2K makes you (or plans to make you) a winner :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Phila-NYC Mainline From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com (Michael E. Allen) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:51:59 EDT Content-Length: 1262 On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:56:37 -0400 bobsin@nac.net writes: >While we discuss the line that followed the canal ... >..., then continued to Millstone where it became the Millstone >Branch of later years (now surviving only as the Jersey Avenue >platform track). The line still continues a mile or so past Rt 27 to Veronica Ave in Somerset for very occasional freight service. PRR did consider linking Rocky Hill and East Millstone as part of a freight bypass. One of the unpublished [i.e. not in either System Plan] USRA suggestions was to link the two lines since the primary customer for the quarry on the Rocky Hill Branch was a concrete plant on the Millstone Branch and building a connection along the canal for a shortline operation was thought to be cost effective ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.com Management Services 1-800-484-7673-8270 Michael E. Allen MEAllen@Juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: new york-long branch Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:11:52 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 714 On 13 Aug, "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > [ ... ] where do you plan to get Baldwin > BP20's, CNJ Baldwin Baby Faces, or PRR MP54s?? [ ... ] Bachmann is now making 54-foot heavyweight passenger cars, a good start for MP54s. Haven't researched powering them yet. Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______]##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: new york-long branch From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 15:24:20 -0400 Content-Length: 749 Dennis, As usual, I see things bigger (HO) than you do (N) ;-) I presume the Bachmann 54-foot heavyweight passenger cars of which you speak are the itty-bitty variety; or have I missed something in HO? regards Andy >On 13 Aug, "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > >> [ ... ] where do you plan to get Baldwin >> BP20's, CNJ Baldwin Baby Faces, or PRR MP54s?? [ ... ] > >Bachmann is now making 54-foot heavyweight passenger cars, a >good start for MP54s. Haven't researched powering them yet. > >Dennis Rockwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:58:22 -0400 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Auction Item Content-Length: 490 Thought this would be of interest to all of you passenger car fans: HO Brass PRR 7 Car Pass. Set (item #get1795) Date auction ends: 08/18/97, 11:31:18 PDT Current bid for this item: $100.00 (reserve price auction) http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=get1795 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Auction Item Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 19:11:28 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 786 >Thought this would be of interest to all of you passenger car fans: > >HO Brass PRR 7 Car Pass. Set (item #get1795) >Date auction ends: 08/18/97, 11:31:18 PDT >Current bid for this item: $100.00 (reserve price auction) >http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=get1795 I saw this....among other things, it includes a vista dome. (snicker) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:01:21 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Pennsy in Kentucky Content-Length: 1653 This past weekend I went to Cincinnati to Summerail at C.U.T. (which was an excellent time if you couldn't make it). On Sunday, I took a drive to Latonia, KY, on the former Louisville & Nashville, where there used to be a small yard. Latonia is about 5 miles south of Cincinnati, just a little north of DeCoursey. The north end of the yard has been converted into a rail musueum of sorts, operated by a group called Railway Expo (I think). They have a lot of equipment there, probably too much for the size of the group, as a lot of it is rusting away. Besides to VO1000 and the restored C&O caboose, items of interest to the list include a restored PRR SW1 and a former PRR E8 (PRR 5888, later Amtrak 295 and 456). The E8 is in a tuscan-colored primer and is slated for restoration. The SW1 is next to the road and looks great. It is the next locomotive slated for rebuilding to operable status. Since I'm not real familiar with the group or the area, I can't really give any more detailed info about the museum, but for any of the people living in Lines West territory, it's worth a stop if you're passing through. Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:21:26 -0400 (EDT) From: TVondruska@aol.com Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones Content-Length: 1132 In a message dated 97-08-11 13:28:42 EDT, you write: << Jerry asked: >Did the Pennsy put train phones on passenger cars? > >The Liberty Limited Dinner Train owns the Catulpa Falls, an ex-PRR class >PS6L (six bedrooms, lounge). On its roof, running the entire length, is what >appears to be a trainphone antenna. >--------------- And Andy Miller responded: It has always been my understanding that those antenna were for commercial AM broadcast reception and used by ordinary radios in the lounges. They appear on all of the lounge and observation cars. See the Broadway Ltd plans in MR a few years ago. A heavier variation appreared on the roof of heavyweight lounge car >> I've seen lounge car drawings with a public telephone. It was my understanding that on lounge, observation and business cars the "handrail antenna" also carried the telephone messages. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:01:08 -0400 Content-Length: 1877 The PRR did advertise telephone service on the premier runs like the Broadway. I have black and white video (old film) of telephones on PRR equipment. I do NOT know how the system worked. Need some help from the experts. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net ---------- > From: TVondruska@aol.com > To: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones > Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 11:21 PM > > In a message dated 97-08-11 13:28:42 EDT, you write: > > << Jerry asked: > > >Did the Pennsy put train phones on passenger cars? > > > >The Liberty Limited Dinner Train owns the Catulpa Falls, an ex-PRR class > >PS6L (six bedrooms, lounge). On its roof, running the entire length, is > what > >appears to be a trainphone antenna. > >--------------- > > And Andy Miller responded: > It has always been my understanding that those antenna were for commercial > AM broadcast reception and used by ordinary radios in the lounges. They > appear > on all of the lounge and observation cars. See the Broadway Ltd plans in MR > a > few years ago. A heavier variation appreared on the roof of heavyweight > lounge car >> > > I've seen lounge car drawings with a public telephone. It was my > understanding that on lounge, observation and business cars the "handrail > antenna" also carried the telephone messages. > > Tom V. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 06:57:46 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 701 >The PRR did advertise telephone service on >the premier runs like the Broadway. I have >black and white video (old film) of telephones >on PRR equipment. I do NOT know how the >system worked. Need some help from the >experts. Wasn't it cellular? (grin) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:59:45 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones Content-Length: 1132 Jerry, >On its roof, running the entire length, is what >appears to be a trainphone antenna. Telephone service _could_ have been provided through the old AT&T mobile telephone service, which was accecssed through mobile phone operators. It did not have the facility to change tower access locations like present cellular service. Radio frequency was slightly higher than AM Broadcast, probably in the 40 to 80 meter wavelength, as I remember the length of the car antennas used (a SWAG estimate). A mobile phone was probably not practical given the mobility of trains. More likely phone service was like that of rival 20th Century Limited, it was plugged in to the rear of the obs car in Grand Central and could be used until the train departed; the connector pulled out as the train left. Long-wire rooftop antennas were more in the size required for a good AM antenna. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Auction Item Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:27:49 -0400 Content-Length: 679 This smacks of the long dreaded not-very-to-scale Tenshodo cars (shudder), yet there are those who enjoy having this stuff. And a dome yet. Wonder if it's in the FOM scheme? > ---------- > : Re: Auction Item > > >Thought this would be of interest to all of you passenger car fans: > >HO Brass PRR 7 Car Pass. > > I saw this....among other things, it includes a vista dome. > (snicker) > > ----------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:53:35 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Railroad help ? Content-Length: 1483 Hi all, Can anyone help this person? - Thanks > >I'm looking for info on the net pertaining to the New York Penn Station >proposed relocation and rehabilitation to the "old" post office building >accross the street from its present (madison square garden) location and >can find nothing at all regarding this subjectmatter. > >Any ideas would be appreceated! > >Regards, John at Ocean-City@WorldNet.att.net Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |[] []| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | PENNSYLVANIA | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | _________________________ |_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: new york-long branch Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:21:16 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 829 On 13 Aug, "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Dennis wrote: > >Bachmann is now making 54-foot heavyweight passenger cars, a > >good start for MP54s. Haven't researched powering them yet. > As usual, I see things bigger (HO) than you do (N) ;-) I presume the > Bachmann 54-foot heavyweight passenger cars of which you speak are the > itty-bitty variety; or have I missed something in HO? Yep, sorry, they're only half as big as you need them. I was reminding myself to mention the scale while I wrote that item, but I don't listen to myself any better than I listen to anybody else! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Anyone have info on RailFest? From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:41:39 -0400 Content-Length: 985 Has ANYONE received or seen a schedule of events / program for this years Rail Fest, to be held in Altoona over the weekend of October 4-5 (I believe). Supposedly, this info was to appear on the HorseShoe Curve and Altoona Railroader's Museum web sites (via http://www.railroadcity.com) some time ago, but their sites are updated as often as that of the PRRT&HS's site!!! They usually have tours of Conrail's shops, and Amtrak excursions up and over the mountain (and back!). I can finally make it this year, but can't find info. Is it still on? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:09:24 -0400 (EDT) From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: PRR in Central New Jersey Content-Length: 12199 This subject has come up again, about PRR lines in Central New Jersey... I'm still out on the road, and don't have access to the longer postings I made in 1995 on the subject, but will offer the following sequence again which I put out in May of 1996 (the "plains" refers to my being in Dallas TX in early 1996; I've been in Chicago area on another contract since August 1996). (Pulled in from Dejanews and reformated on 1997/08/14). ============================================================================= Subject: Millstone Branch (Back Home, Got My References) From: bbreynolds@aol.com (BBReynolds) Date: 1996/05/09 While I was out on the plains, there was a posting/query about the Millstone Branch of the PRR in New Jersey. Because I had covered that route last Fall, I posted a quick "wait until I get home note"...I'm home now, and pull off my home machine the contents of the following: SWEEPING UP OLD PIECES GATHERED WHILE ON THE ROAD: On 23 Feb 1996, jguthrie@nyc.pipeline.com (James R. Guthrie), put out a posting in reply to bob.berto@acgnj.org (BOB BERTO), as follows: Bob, I believe you're referring to the Millstone Industrial Track (formerly the Millstone branch, once upon a time, the Main Line to Trenton. I've seen this on abandonment lists. Jim On Feb 22, 1996 18:06:00 in article , 'bob.berto@acgnj.org (BOB BERTO)' wrote: >Hello all ! >I am a regular lurker here and was wondering if anyone has any >info regarding the future for the Clyde spur off the North East >Corridor in New Jersey. It is about a three mile west spur >from the NEC between New Brunswick and Jersey Avenue running >thru Somerset ( Franklin Township ). I had read in the public >notice section of the local paper that it was to be abandoned. > >Bob Berto, SysOp, Amateur Computer Group of New Jersey BBS >908-AIR-BBS-3 ...tags deleted... I've been away, and couldn't get back to my sources when I saw Jim's posting, but have now returned and will repost a posting on Central NJ railroad history which I put out in 12/95. Main reason, to refute Jim on statement that Millstone branch was ever the "Main Line to Trenton": <12/95>Subj: Fwd: Central Jersey RR's <12/95>Subject: Central New Jersey RR's (was RE: NJ Transit) <12/95>From: bbreynolds@aol.com (BBReynolds) <12/95>Date: 2 Dec 1995 17:42:23 -0500 <12/95>In message <491tpos$lak@newsbf02.news.aol.com> of 23 Nov 1995, <12/95>TRHickey <12/95>(trhickey@aol.com) added to the thread "NJ Transit", which included <12/95>a discussion of the NJT Jersey Avenue station in New Brunswick and <12/95>the PRR Millstone Branch which joins the PRR main line at Jersey <12/95>Avenue. <12/95>TR wrote: <12/95> My Reply: <12/95>Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we try to trace central New <12/95>Jersey railroads... <12/95>First, the route from Trenton to New Brunswick along the canal: <12/95>The Camden & Amboy finished their route from South Amboy to <12/95>Bordentown in 1832; the Delaware & Raritan Canal Bordentown to New <12/95>Brunswick was in operation in 1834. In a mutual effort to stymie <12/95>competition, the two companies joined their financial interests as <12/95>the "Joint Companies". <12/95>The charter for the Joint Companies required the C&A to build a <12/95>branch line to New Brunswick to connect with the New Jersey Railroad <12/95>which was then being built from Jersey City to New Brunswick. <12/95>In the meantime, the Philadelphia & Trenton RR was nearing completion <12/95>from Kensington to Morrisville: this railroad intended to purchase <12/95>the Trenton & New Brunswick Straight Turnpike Company (established in <12/95>1804) and convert the turnpike into a railroad. <12/95>To stymie this effort, the Joint Companies made a pooling <12/95>arrangement with the P & T, and the C & A agreed to build from <12/95>Bordentown through Trenton to New Brunswick. The cheapest route <12/95>to use was that of the just-completed canal, and a single track <12/95>railroad was laid on the east bank of the canal (the west bank is the <12/95>tow path) from the Trenton canal basin to just below Kingston, and <12/95>then to Dean's Pond and onto the currently-used alignment to New <12/95>Brunswick, this route being completed by 1839. Although Wilmot <12/95>states that "no drawing or photo is known" (Wilmot, p. 46) of the <12/95>first Princeton station, the Steamboat or Railroad Hotel at the <12/95>Princeton canal basin served both systems, and a photo is in <12/95>McKelvey's book (p. 24). <12/95>The canal basin was a good bit southeast of Princeton town and <12/95>college, near where Alexander Street now crosses the canal. <12/95>In 1862, the current alignment from Trenton to Dean's Pond was <12/95>completed, the rails were almost immediately removed from the canal <12/95>bank, and the Princeton Branch was built, giving better access to <12/95>the town and college than before. The portion of the old alignment <12/95>between Kingston and Dean's Pond was extended through Kingston, up <12/95>the east bank of the canal to the Rocky Hill trap rock quarry, <12/95>becoming the Rocky Hill branch. All of this was absorbed into the <12/95>PRR in 1871 when the United New Jersey Lines, which had succeeded to <12/95>the Joint Companies, were leased for the usual 999-year term <12/95>(see Burgess, p. 244 for a map of the United Lines). The eastern end <12/95>of the Rocky Hill branch was realigned to meet the main stem at <12/95>Monmouth Junction at the time the Jamesburg and Freehold branch was <12/95>built from Jamesburg to Monmouth Junction. <12/95>Little remains of this first alignment: even the first pictures of <12/95>the Princeton branch bridge across the canal show no sign that a <12/95>railroad had been on the canal bank only a year or two before. <12/95>The Rocky Hill branch was abandoned by Conrail in the 1970's, and <12/95>has been torn up, but probably can be easily followed. A 1963 air <12/95>view (Menzies, p. 235) moreover, shows a distinctive double line <12/95>of trees curving from the canal bank to the Rocky Hill branch <12/95>alignment, which most likely is the alignment of the original <12/95>railroad line. Dean's Pond was recently spruced up, and can be <12/95>seen on the east side of the Amtrak main line about one-quarter <12/95>mile north of Monmouth Junction. <12/95>Next, the Millstone branch. <12/95>This line was chartered in 1841, but as it essentially shorthauled <12/95>the canal between Millstone and New Brunswick, it was bought up by <12/95>the Joint Companies: it was only constructed in the 1850's, reaching <12/95>East Millstone (Johnsville) in 1856. The line was part of the <12/95>United Lines leased to the PRR in 1871. In 1872, the canal and river <12/95>were bridged by the railroad, and the line was connected to the Mercer <12/95>and Somerset, which connected with the Belvidere-Delaware just north <12/95>of Trenton (Somerset Junction) and ran through Pennington and <12/95>Hopewell, before swinging east to Millstone. The Mercer and <12/95>Somerset was one of New Jersey's shortest lived lines, being <12/95>abandoned in 1879. It is not even mentioned in Burgess and Kennedy, <12/95>whose book includes about every foot of PRR corporate structures. <12/95>The M & NB shows as completed to Millstone, and the M & S shows as <12/95>projected, in an 1860 New Jersey railroad map (Alexander, 1957, <12/95>p. 42). The combined route shows on the PRR system map, c.1876, <12/95>which is in both of Alexander's books (1957, p. 38; 1971, endpapers). <12/95>The Mercer & Someset figured in the "Hopewell Frog War", when the <12/95>Delaware & Bound Brook (being built by the Northern Pennsylvania) <12/95>attempted to cross the PRR at Hopewell. My guess is that the <12/95>Millstone river bridge was wiped out by a freshet, as the flood plain <12/95>is very wide there (the area is now wooded, but McKelvey shows the <12/95>area as open fields (p. 45)). The next attempt to go beyond East <12/95>Millstone was one in 1901 by the Raritan River Rail Road <12/95>(which runs from South Amboy to New Brunswick, ending several <12/95>hundred yards east of, but not connecting to, the PRR main line at <12/95>about the point where the Millstone branch comes in) (RR now a Conrail <12/95>branch), to take over the Millstone branch, relay the Mercer & <12/95>Somerset and connect to the Reading at Hopewell and on the branch <12/95>line from West Trenton to Trenton. This would have given the Reading <12/95>a second route to New York Harbor. The second attempt was one by the <12/95>Raritan River in 1903 to use the Millstone branch as the beginning <12/95>of a line which would go from Millstone up the Raritan to White <12/95>House station on the Jersey Central, and connect with the New Jersey <12/95>& Pennsylvania (Rockaway Valley) to form an "outer belt" through <12/95>Morristown, but which would again give an alternate route for Reading <12/95>and Jersey Central into New York Harbor. <12/95>The Millstone branch slowly declined, especially after the <12/95>Fleischman's distillery at East Millstone burned c. 1910. I can <12/95>recall only one attempt to move traffic on the line in the late <12/95>1970's, and the line has been abandoned by Conrail a few hundred <12/95>yards west of Jersey Avenue (the street). In other words, the Millstone branch was never the main line to Trenton. (...section on Reading line into Princeton deleted...) <12/95>References: <12/95>Alexander, Edwin P., _On the Main Line: The Pennsylvania Railroad <12/95>in the 19th Century_, New York, 1971. <12/95>-----, _The Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History_, New York, <12/95>1957. <12/95>Burgess, George H., and Kennedy, Miles C., _Centennial History of <12/95>the Pennsylvania Railroad_, Philadelphia, 1949. <12/95>Deibert, Frederick W., _Rails Up the Raritan: A History of the <12/95>Raritan River Rail Road_, Piscataway, 1983. <12/95>Jacobs, Timothy, _The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad_, <12/95>Greenwich (CT), 1988. <12/95>McKelvey, William J., Jr., _The Delaware & Raritan Canal: A <12/95>Pictorial History_, York, 1975. <12/95>Menzies, Elizabeth G. C., _Millstone Valley_, New Brunswick, 1969. <12/95>Taber, Thomas, III, _The Rock-a-Bye Baby: A History of the Rockaway <12/95>Valley Railroad_, Muncy (PA), 1972. <12/95>Wilmot, John R., "The Princeton Branch: From Camden & Amboy to NJ <12/95>Transit", _Trains_, Volume 47, Number 8, (June 1987), pp. 44-51. ============================================================= I'll try to see if I can get Dejanews to cough up the posting which included the material about the Reading line into Lawrenceville; if not, I'll have to pull it off my archives next time I'm at home outside of Philadelphia. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:40:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Anyone have info on RailFest? Content-Length: 7951 > Subject: Anyone have info on RailFest? > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: prr-talk@dsop.com, conrail-talk@dsop.com > Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:41:39 -0400 > > Has ANYONE received or seen a schedule of events / program for this years > Rail Fest, to be held in Altoona over the weekend of October 4-5 (I > believe). > Ask and ye shall receive. This just came in. ======================================================= Send reply to: From: "Willie Brown" To: Subject: Fw: SPECIAL ADVANCE RAILFEST TICKET ORDER FORM! Date sent: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:03:38 -0500 ---------- Hello Everone, Here is what was sent to me in regard to railfest so I thought I would post it so everyone could take advantage of it. > Willie Brown, > > > Subject: SPECIAL ADVANCE RAILFEST TICKET ORDER FORM! > > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 9:45 PM > > > > Thank you for requesting information on ALTOONA RAILFEST 97. On > > October 4th and 5th, Altoona, PA will roll out the red carpet for > > railfans from around the world. Nowhere, can a more powerful and > > significant railroad story be told in an authentic atmosphere. > > Please take a moment and read all about Altoona Railfest 97 and > > take advantage of the ticket order form at the end of this > > message. Please feel free to print and mail or fax the form to the > > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. If you wish, you may copy, > > paste and complete the order form. You may email the completed > > form to rrcity@aol.com. > > Again, thank you and we look forward to seeing you in RAILROAD > > CITY > > on October 4th and 5th! > > > > The Town Where Great American Railroading Was Born... Altoona, PA > > Dramatic change is on the horizon for railroading in the eastern > > United States. And once again, Altoona is in the middle of a > > railroad explosion. What was it like to live in a town that was > > built by the railroad? What is it like to be a railroad town in > > transition? And what will modern day railroading bring in the new > > millennium? Learn all of the answers at Altoona Railfest '97. > > > > Walking Tours of the Historic Juniata Locomotive Shops > > Altoona Railfest '97 guests will be treated to a rare inside look > > at the Conrail Juniata Locomotive Shops. A newly designed walking > > tour will include the paint shop, the wheel, traction motor, > > diesel engine, truck and radiator repair shops. Visitors will also > > tour the machine shop and the model room. Those planning to take > > the shop tour are reminded that the tour is a hearty walk and > > comfortable shoes are recommended. (Some shop areas are not fully > > handicapped accessible.) > > > > Amtrak's Equipment Display > > Amtrak will be on hand at Altoona Railfest '97. The festival has > > become an annual showcase for Amtrak equipment and services. The > > Great American Station Foundation Whistle Stop Train will also be > > at Railfest. > > > > Horseshoe Curve Excursions > > Railfest guests will get a track-side view of the Horseshoe Curve > > during Saturday and Sunday excursions. Excursion fares are not > > included in Railfest admission. > > > > Conrail Business Train > > Visitors to the Juniata Shops will visit the Conrail Business > > Train which is based in Altoona. The rich green paint scheme of > > the train should provide the perfect subject for shutter bugs. > > > > New Museum Film > > The just-released Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum film > > "Altoona at Work: An Era Of Steam" will delight audiences in the > > theatre of the new Museum. This film chronicles evolution of > > Railroad City. > > > > Signed Tours for the hearing impaired > > An interpreter for the hearing impaired will guide you through the > > Historic Juniata Locomotive Shops. These special tours will begin > > at 1pm both days. > > Please indicate on the ticket order form, if you choose to > > participate. > > > > Rau Gallery Opening! > > The Southern Alleghenies Museum of Art in Altoona will have the > > very special regional images of renowned PRR photographer William > > H. Rau on display! > The exhibit "From Harrisburg to the Horseshoe Curve: Scenes along > the > > Middle Division" will be open during festival hours. > > > > > > To order by phone call toll free 1-888-4-ALTOONA > > (814) 946-0834 Fax (814) 946-9457 > > email: RRCITY@aol.com > > http://www.railroadcity.com > > > > Name _____________________________ email: __________________ > > > > Address __________________________________ > > > > Phone __________________________ > > > > City ________________________ State ____ Zip ________ > > > > Railfest Admission Tickets > > > > ______ Adult Railfest tickets @ $10.00 per day = $ _______ > > > > ______ Child Railfest tickets @ $4.00 per day = $ _______ > > 2 - 12 years under 2 free > > > > SAVE!____ Adult Two-Day Pass @ $15.00 = $ _______ > > > > SAVE!____ Child Two-Day Pass @ $6.00 = $ _______ > > > > > > Excursion Tickets > > > > _____ Excursion fares @ $12.00 $ _______ > > Indicate day and time preference below > > > > > > The "Weekender" Pass! Save up to $10.00 > > Includes two-day Railfest ticket and excursion fare > > > > _____ Adult "Weekender" Pass @ $22.00 $ _______ > > Indicate day and time preference below > > _____ Child "Weekender" Pass @ $16.00 $ _______ > > Indicate day and time preference below > > > > Total $ > > _______ > > > > Indicate preference: > > Saturday Excursions __ 11:40am __ 1:30pm __ 3:20pm > > > > Sunday Excursions __ 9:50am __ 11:40am __ 1:30pm __ 3:20pm > > > > > > o Check o Money Order o Visa/Mastercard > > > > __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ > > > > Exp. Date ________ > > > > Signature ______________________________________ > > > > Ordering Guidelines: > > ___ Check here if buying excursion ticket for someone in need of > > boarding assistance. (i.e., wheelchair, walker, medical condition, > > etc.) Describe assistance needed: > > ______________________________________________________ Wheelchair > > accommodations are limited - Please include phone number for > > advance arrangements. > > > > Railfest tickets are valid for all Railfest exhibits, displays, > > shop tours and shuttle buses for either day. Excursion tickets are > > valid only for trip indicated on ticket. All excursion passengers > > must have a ticket with the exception of children under age 2 > > riding on adult lap. Day preference for excursions will be > > honored. Every attempt will be made to honor time preference, but > > cannot be guaranteed. > > > > ___ Check here to be included in special 1pm (both days) signed > > tour for the hearing impaired. > > > > Return to: Railfest Tickets > > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > > 1300 Ninth Avenue Altoona, PA 16602 > > PAYMENT MUST ACCOMPANY ORDER > > Fax orders to (814) 946-9457 Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:35:04 -0400 Content-Length: 1732 Sorry Jerry, It was not cellular. I think it was the earliest use of clandestine satellites from a CIA project being tested in the public forum by the PRR prior to the launch of Sputnik by the USSR. This information is just now being de-classified by the Radio Free Europe project. Due to the PRR involvement in the use of satellites and radioactive materials in the seat cushions of passenger equipment, they were forced into the Penn Central merger rather than be exposed to the general public by the CIA. some body at Maranatha dot net ---------- > From: Jerry > To: nobody@maranatha.net > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Passenger Cars & Train Phones > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 6:57 AM > > >The PRR did advertise telephone service on > >the premier runs like the Broadway. I have > >black and white video (old film) of telephones > >on PRR equipment. I do NOT know how the > >system worked. Need some help from the > >experts. > > Wasn't it cellular? (grin) > > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:43:46 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: cut section switch Content-Length: 699 This is in reponse to the question......about the cut switch I can give only two reasons...one it has been out of service for a long time and amtrak is finally getting around to removing it. maybe they only cut the bottom off as a safety measure until they remove it completely(amtrak loves to short cut things) or maybe it still works and since there is a higher platform there now they fiqure to reach it with a linesman pole. go fiqure? H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark D Bej Subject: cut section switch (fwd) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:36:08 EDT Content-Length: 905 > This is in reponse to the question......about the cut switch > > I can give only two reasons...one it has been out of service for > a long time and amtrak is finally getting around to removing it. > maybe they only cut the bottom off as a safety measure until they > remove it completely(amtrak loves to short cut things) No, those switches are still very much in service. (The placement of a new lock on it is additional evidence of that.) > or maybe it still works and since there is a higher platform there > now they fiqure to reach it with a linesman pole. go fiqure? Also no. It's to prevent 'casual' use by unauthorized personnel. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:11:45 -0400 Subject: Re: PRR in Central New Jersey Content-Length: 689 Thanks to Mr. Reynolds for his very comprehensive info (from 1995) on the central Jersey lines. One question: although I haven't been there in a few years, the last time I took a canoe down the Millstone River I noted evidence of old bridge piers (maybe abutments, can't recall) a short distance upstream (south) of the current highway bridge at Millstone. Probably this is just an older highway bridge, but could it have been the rail line? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Is is a PS31L or a PS13L? Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 19:06:29 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1654 Andy Miller, I, and others, have pretty much established that the "a" suffix on passenger car classes denoted a "pre-war" version. I have found many sources to support this theory, though none come right out and state it. We have discovered, perhaps, an exception, and I am looking for a true source on the subject, as well as a recommendation. There were cars built, both "pre-war" and "post-war" that featured three bedrooms, a drawing room and a lounge. This was the "Colonial" series. Nowhere can I find a reference to this class with the "a" suffix. Ian Fischer's "PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Volume 2" shows a "pre-war" version and labels it a "PS31L". Can anyone dispute, with backup, that the "pre-war" was anything other than a "PS31L" (no "a")? Andy feels strongly (and I have no reason to argue) that the "post-war" cars were classed as "PS13L" (inversed numbers) -- not to be confused with "PS13". Can anyone dispute this? As for a recommendation: On my passenger cross reference list...do I have one entry with the class reading "PS31L / PS13L" with its roster, or do I create separate entries, both having "Colonial" as their series name? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:14:24 -0400 (EDT) From: BBReynolds@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR in Central New Jersey Content-Length: 1052 In a message dated 97-08-15 11:03:07 EDT, bobsin@nac.net wrote: << Subj: Re: PRR in Central New Jersey Date: 97-08-15 11:03:07 EDT From: bobsin@nac.net Reply-to: bobsin@nac.net To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com CC: BBReynolds@aol.com Thanks to Mr. Reynolds for his very comprehensive info (from 1995) on the central Jersey lines. One question: although I haven't been there in a few years, the last time I took a canoe down the Millstone River I noted evidence of old bridge piers (maybe abutments, can't recall) a short distance upstream (south) of the current highway bridge at Millstone. Probably this is just an older highway bridge, but could it have been the rail line? John Bobsin >> Last paddled on the Millstone c. 1968, but I believe that you were looking at the RR bridge piers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:11:36 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Is is a PS31L or a PS13L? Content-Length: 1676 There were three groups of 3 bedroom, 1 drawing room, 1 lounge cars. One built in 1938. one designed in 1944 but never built and one built in 1949. 1938 cars lot 6551, plan 4078 built 5/38 (PS38-1069-001 to 009) This was the Colonial series. When delivered four cars were assigned to the General, two cars to the Liberty limited and three cars to the Spirit of St. Louis. All 9 cars were sold to Mexico. PRR Class PS31L 3 bedroom 1 drawing room and lounge 1944 lot 6691, plan 4078A 7 cars cancelled 2/44 1949 lot 6792 plan 4132 built 5/49 - 6/49 (PS49-1305-001 to 008) These cars were also part of the Colonial series. Only the Colonial Chief survives at the Arden Trolley Museum. The other cars were scraped. PRR Class PS13L 1 drawing room 3 bedrooms and lounge. Classes were assigned to Pullman cars whne purchased by starting at the "B" end of the car. Skip areas such as the lounge, the first type of sleeping quarters encountered became the first type numbered in the class, the second type of sleeping quarters the second type numbered in the class and the letter for special areas added at the end. Becaue of the difference in the floor plan between the two groups of cars, the class numbers were different, If the 1949 cars have the same arrangement of sleeping compartments then one of the cars would have had the "a" suffix. Generally speaking the older car received the "a" suffix. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Dugas Subject: LCL "Liberty Bell Service"? Content-Length: 831 Hi all, A friend showed me a picture in a 1992 RMC of a K-Line model of a Pennsy lcl service car that has a two-color paint scheme, light above, dark below. It has large L.C.L. Service lettering in the top left corner with a "Liberty Bell" graphic below it spanning the two colors. Spanning the colors on the right of the car is a dark Keystone in a white circular field. It has a road number of 943403. The ad states that it is a "unique, historic design scheme(s) by industrial designer, Raymond Loewy". Does anyone have any info on this car and/or "LCL Liberty Bell" service? Thanks, Ron ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 17:19:38 -0500 From: "S.A. McCall" Subject: Passenger power Content-Length: 730 Greetings, During the late 40's and early 50's what type engine was usually assigned to the following named passenger trains. Broadway Limited Liberty Limited "Spirit of St. Louis" The Jeffersonian Cincinnati Limited The Red Arrow The General The Trail Blazer The Clevelander The Admiral The Texas Eagle The ST. Louisian I would assume between New York and Harrisburg all passenger trains drew an electric for power, on lines west they drew diesels. Can anybody help??? HOSAM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:07:26 -0500 From: "S.A. McCall" Subject: Passenger power Content-Length: 997 Greetings, One thing which prompted my inquiry about the various passenger trains is an advertisement in National Geographic around 1948 or so. This ad shows all the trains I mentioned. The artists depiction shows Broadway Limited E8 Liberty Limited CENTIPEDE "Spirit of St. Louis" PA The Jeffersonian F7 Cincinnati Limited "BABYFACE" The Red Arrow PA The General PA The Trail Blazer "BABYFACE" The Clevelander E8 The Admiral PA The Texas Eagle E8 The ST. Louisian PA Some of these artist depictions are quite small so I may have misidentified some. Another question, how did the GG1 engineers communicate since they did not have the large radio-telephone antennas which most diesels carried?? HOSAM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:10:15 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Cockeyville,Md Content-Length: 890 Hello everyone.... does any have or know where i can find plans or pictures of the 1866 built passenger station that was in cockeyville Md.(torn down in the mid seventies) I have the pictures of the south and east side (shown in the Northern Central book) but need to be sure of the north and east side of it...I remember a little baggage room abd a porch on the north side of it and a basement door centered on the west side but not sure about the windows and such....can anyone help? thank you.... H.Mummert p.s. note..jerry you might need this info too. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:35:03 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: LCL "Liberty Bell Service"? Content-Length: 1223 In a message dated 97-08-16 16:47:19 EDT, rond@efn.org writes: << A friend showed me a picture in a 1992 RMC of a K-Line model of a Pennsy lcl service car that has a two-color paint scheme, light above, dark below. It has large L.C.L. Service lettering in the top left corner with a "Liberty Bell" graphic below it spanning the two colors. Spanning the colors on the right of the car is a dark Keystone in a white circular field. It has a road number of 943403. The ad states that it is a "unique, historic design scheme(s) by industrial designer, Raymond Loewy". Does anyone have any info on this car and/or "LCL Liberty Bell" service? >> First 943403 is an MOW car number. The "Liberty Bell" scheme was designed by Loewy when the PRR was looking for an l.c.l. advertising scheme. The Merchandise Service design was chosen ane the L. Bell never went beyond paper, It was not used and is not a legitimate PRR paint scheme, i.e. it is a K-Line marketing ploy. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:45:31 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Passenger power Content-Length: 963 In a message dated 97-08-16 17:21:52 EDT, hosam@gc.net writes: << During the late 40's and early 50's what type engine was usually assigned to the following named passenger trains. Broadway Limited Liberty Limited "Spirit of St. Louis" The Jeffersonian Cincinnati Limited The Red Arrow The General The Trail Blazer The Clevelander The Admiral The Texas Eagle The ST. Louisian >> All of these trains would have drawn E7, E7B, E8 and occassionally passenger sharks west of Harrisburg. This excludes the helpers which could have been F3A/B or GP7/9 on "the Curve". The other passenger locomotives (PAs and FP7s were restricted to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh locals along with some RS3. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don R. Millbranth" Subject: Coal Docks Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:22:57 -0500 Content-Length: 1482 In 1899 the PRR opened the "Coal Docks" in Wanatah (IN). This provided the railroad with a means of fueling steam engines, and later to take on water. Coal cars were pushed up a long ramp where they could then be emptied into shuttles. The shuttles were the pushed out over the tender and dumped. The structure was constructed of large oak timbers. A pile driver was brought in. Supposedly the pile driver was owned by the PRR. Probably steam driven. Water was originally pumped from a ditch about a mile away. Later wells were put down for a more local water source, and stored in water towers. Would anyone know of a source/archive for the drawings for this structure, if they existed? Any additonal info/documentation would be appreciated. I/we do have photos of the structure and it was in use until the diesels took over completely, when it was then torn down. This information is important to me/us as it played a big part in the history of the town. The tiwn is here because of the MONON and PRR rails crossing here. There was also a similar structure in Alamosa, CO, if anyone has knowledge of this structure it would also be appreciated. Thank you... Don R. Millbranth Pres/Society Histroian Wanatah Historical Society ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:48:09 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Pennsy Power III Content-Length: 431 I am considering the purchase of the large and expensive book Pennsy Power 3. I was wondering if anyone in this group has the book and can tell me some things about it. Tom von Trott, prr643@usa.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:49:30 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: T1 Builders Plate Content-Length: 498 I recently purchased a repro of a T1 builders plate made by T&T decorations of Altoona. I was wondering if anyone had a complete enough roster to tell me the number of the locomotive the plate came from. The data on the plate is Altoona, 4586, 5-1946. Any ideas? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:54:34 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: T1 Builders Plate Content-Length: 876 >I recently purchased a repro of a T1 builders plate made by T&T >decorations of Altoona. I was wondering if anyone had a complete enough >roster to >tell me the number of the locomotive the plate came from. The data on the >plate is Altoona, 4586, 5-1946. Any ideas? > According to Keystone Steam & Electric by William Edson, Juniata (Altoona) Works built T1s numbered 5500 to 5524 construction numbers 4560 to 4584 inclusive. According to the book, construction number 4584 was the last engine built by the Juniata Works. The remaining T1s were built by Baldwin as were the two prototypes. Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:07:53 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: T-1 builders plate Content-Length: 791 T-1 builders plate....well ..maybe its........ Hello all.... I might be wrong but i think the number(4586) is from the last Altoona built T-1 no 5524....I get my info from Pennsy power I.... the J-1 no.6450 (b no.4399) built in 1942.I added the rest of the J,s then the 10 GG-1s built in 1943(4929-4938),the Q-1 and the 26 Q-2s. then the 25 altoona built T-1 s.This would make T-1 no 5524,builders no 4586....I might be wrong but...i don't have enough info to verify it. H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:41:39 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Content-Length: 644 This is just a notice to the group that the only operating ex-PRR steam locomotive, B4a 0-6-0 #643, will be operating as part of the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assosication's annual show the week of Aug 24 thru Sept 1., with passenger trains on the weekends and likely on Thrus and Friday evenings, the 28th and 29th. Williams Grove is located about 25 minutes from Harrisburg outside of Dillsburg, PA. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:19:33 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Lost Mag Articles Content-Length: 1313 Due to a unfortunate fire in our motor home I recently lost two of my favorite PRR steam articles, both from Trains magazine. One was titled Second Engine, 28 and was published I believe in a 1975 issue of Trains. This was about a Eastbound run of the Broadway from the cab perspective of 2 K4s. The other was about firing a T1 late in PRR steam. This was in a much more recent issue, after the current cover style was put in to use in the early 90's. This issue also contained an article on the Daylight painted PA in Mexico. Both were by the same Author, who I belive is recently deceased. If anyone can photo copy these articles and send them to me I would be VERY VERY greatful, and would gladly pay copying costs and postage. If anyone can at least supply me with authors name (which I can't remember) that would be great also. I'd also be willing to buy copies of any other articles by this author. I can at least try to get a back issue of the more recent one if I can get the issue's date. Any info would be great, Thanks in advance, Tom von Trott, prr643@usa.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRRT&HS web page... Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 11:32:46 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 487 Got a message back from George Burbage (the admin for the PRRT&HS web page) and he reports that the PRRT&HS web page will be updated on Sept 15... (hooefully not just to update the date on the "what's new" page....) Guess we'll just have to wait and see! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jonathan Goldstein Subject: Is There A Route? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Content-Length: 1231 Whenever I travel from Philadelphia to my family in NJ, I always resent the fact that the only route into northern NJ goes through Newark. My family lives in western NJ and it's a pain to go up from Philadelphia to Newark and then back out west on NJT's Peapack-Gladstone line. I've always thought it would be very convenient if there were a passenger route than ran up the western edge of NJ. Is anyone making use of the old Reading rights of way by running passenger service up the western edge of NJ out of Philadelphia? _____________________________________________________________________________ Jonathan S. Goldstein jonathan@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~jonathan/home.html Any opinions offered herein shall not be considered a substitute for paid professional advice. _____________________________________________________________________________ Learn to shoot. The life you save may be your own. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:02:32 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Pennsy Gondola Cars Question Content-Length: 1284 Need to know, what HO scale gondolas (besides the Westerfield G22-series and the Eastern Car Works G26) match or are reasonably close to steel gondolas in service on the Pennsy in the 1936-1939 time frame. I read in the Centennial History that the Pennsy introduced a 52'-6" 70-ton gondola class in 1936, but have seen no photos. Any help greatly appreciated. Regards, Vagel Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:14:13 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: Pennsy Material Content-Length: 765 I am new to the list, but have been modeling the PRR off and on for twenty+ years. In the course of such, I have accumulated material that may be of interest here. Is anyone interested in the 3 books The 50 Best of Pennsylvania RR Photos (Sprial bound, vols 1,2,3)? Or older keystone issues, or Rails Northeast issues? I also have some duplicate Waynor books (PRR Diners). Anyone interested? I am on my way to the NG convention - so I don't have imediate access. However, If anyone is interester, let me know. Thanks, Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:33:31 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: PRR Gondolas Content-Length: 863 Hello... This is for Vagel...the book" PRR color guide to freight and passenger equipment" shows a class G-27 car no.318251 on page 45....says this car was built in 1938...looks close to a class G-31 which was a 52' car. don't know who makes a model of it...Life likes car would be close. The book also shows a older class GXL on page 110 in M of W service but likely it was in revenue service at a earlier date...looks like a 40'car..I think Westerfield makes one.Am sure there was some of those in 1936. hope this helps a little.... H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:19:47 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 667 Hello all. I am working on a fun project that I needed some help on. I am trying a EMD SD60M in a Pennsy paint scheme. I was wondering what color was used on older passenger diesels: maroon or tuscan? I am doing this unit for fun and wondered what a modern unit would look like in Pennsy 5-stripe. Any info is greatly appreciated. Jeremy Helms P.S. This unit will probably be run with modern Pennsylvania Railroad Roadrailers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 06:55:55 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1020 >Hello all. I am working on a fun project that I needed some help on. I am >trying a EMD SD60M in a Pennsy paint scheme. I was wondering what color was >used on older passenger diesels: maroon or tuscan? > >I am doing this unit for fun and wondered what a modern unit would look like >in Pennsy 5-stripe. Any info is greatly appreciated. > >P.S. This unit will probably be run with modern Pennsylvania Railroad >Roadrailers. The maroon/tuscan was used on passenger equipment. You need the freight color: Dark Locomotive Enamel (incorrectly a.k.a. Brunswick Green). ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy Material Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 06:58:22 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1266 >I am new to the list, but have been modeling the PRR off and on for twenty+ >years. In the course of such, I have accumulated material that may be of >interest here. > >Is anyone interested in the 3 books The 50 Best of Pennsylvania RR Photos >(Sprial bound, vols 1,2,3)? > >Or older keystone issues, or Rails Northeast issues? > >I also have some duplicate Waynor books (PRR Diners). Anyone interested? I >am on my way to the NG convention - so I don't have imediate access. >However, If anyone is interester, let me know. Bob: These books will definitely be of interest to myself and / or the list members. Why don't you post a breakdown with the prices you want for each of the items and either post it to the list, or to me for posting in the "Classified" section on "Keystone Crossings". Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Pennsy passenger units Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:59:57 -0400 Content-Length: 1119 Do you know the can of worms you just opened? You wanna bring on a bout of Pennsy Rage from the die hards that insist the Pennsy only used Dark Green Loco Enamel on all their non-red engines? I side with you. When I visited Enola the day new U25Bs were coming on the property, I walked right up to them, and I still recall them as being painted pure black. Everyone tells me I am mistaken--couldn't've been--musta been drinkin'--just looked like it but it was really Pennsy Dark Green. Well, it was the darkest Pennsy Dark Green I had ever seen, and I saw lots of recently painted Dark Green locomotives. I paint all my Pennsy second generation power with gloss black, then with mud and grime. Looks good to me. Andrew Harmantas, Artist, Illustrator, World Traveler, Lecturer, and Bum. > Since PRR changed all loco colors to black, why not black with 5 > stripes?? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:04:34 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 643 On 19 Aug, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > Another thought is to revive a 1950 paint scheme on boxcars for LCL service > "Merchandise Service" (Freight car red, with a white &/or silver and white > band). Wouldn't that look nice on those roadrailers? Yes, it would, and both Microscale (all three styles) and Oddballs (all-white x29 only) make decals for M/S, in N and HO scales. Go for it! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:11:26 -0500 From: "S.A. McCall" Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1076 At 06:55 AM 8/19/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: >>Hello all. I am working on a fun project that I needed some help on. I am >>trying a EMD SD60M in a Pennsy paint scheme. I was wondering what color was >>used on older passenger diesels: maroon or tuscan? >> >>I am doing this unit for fun and wondered what a modern unit would look like >>in Pennsy 5-stripe. Any info is greatly appreciated. >> >>P.S. This unit will probably be run with modern Pennsylvania Railroad >>Roadrailers. > >The maroon/tuscan was used on passenger equipment. You need the freight >color: Dark Locomotive Enamel (incorrectly a.k.a. Brunswick Green). > Greetings, Since PRR changed all loco colors to black, why not black with 5 stripes?? Or if you really want get ahead of a trend paint em black with 5 white pinstripes and a NS in the logo HOSAM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:44:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1977 >Hello all. I am working on a fun project that I needed some help on. I am >trying a EMD SD60M in a Pennsy paint scheme. I was wondering what color was >used on older passenger diesels: maroon or tuscan? Hello Jeremy, In fact BOTH Tuscan and dark locomoptive enamel (aka "Brunswick Green") colors were used at various times. So, go with what you like, after all...it's now your PRR! Of course, the freight color was dark locomotive enamel so for this "highspeed service" that might be more appropriate. Another thought is to revive a 1950 paint scheme on boxcars for LCL service "Merchandise Service" (Freight car red, with a white &/or silver and white band). Wouldn't that look nice on those roadrailers? How about another PRR slogan "Don't Stand me Still"? on the locomotive? When you get some painted, send me (or Jerry) the photos, and I'll get them posted on the web if you would like. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Pennsy Gondola Cars Question Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 09:53:47 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 468 You can check out my PRR freight cars pages at: http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/freight There are at least one or two other cars listed on the gondolas page... (quick list from memory... Sunshine G29 Revel/Con-cor (G27 or G31)) Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:59:00 -0400 Content-Length: 1582 > In fact BOTH Tuscan and dark locomoptive enamel (aka "Brunswick Green") > colors were used at various times. So, go with what you like, after > all...it's now your PRR! Of course, the freight color was dark locomotive > enamel so for this "highspeed service" that might be more appropriate. > Another thought is to revive a 1950 paint scheme on boxcars for LCL service >"Merchandise Service" (Freight car red, with a white &/or silver and white > band). Wouldn't that look nice on those roadrailers? How about another > PRR slogan "Don't Stand me Still"? on the locomotive? How 'bout the silver-band "Merchandise Service" theme with the body below the silver in Dark Locomotive Enamel, the part above in Tuscan Red. In addition to roadrailers, include plenty of X-31, etc., boxcars for LCL service, since the Pennsy bought UPS while they were down-and-out during a labor strike -- they now have plenty of LCL shipments again! (Hey, we did fictionalize this, did we not?) Oh, geez, are dome cars on passenger trains next? (Remember, they didn't run due to low clearances. But thanks to Conrail's double-stack clearance project...) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:37:42 -0400 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1475 > Do you know the can of worms you just opened? You wanna bring on a bout > of Pennsy Rage from the die hards that insist the Pennsy only used Dark > Green Loco Enamel on all their non-red engines? Thanks for opening the "can"! A few weeks ago I was visiting Gallitzin. The man who runs the gift shop there claims he worked for the PRR his whole life. Of all the stops on my trip through Altoona and the curve and then to Pittsburgh, I enjoyed my conversation with him the most. What great stories! When asked what color freight locomotives were painted, his response was one word - black. I also ran a somewhat meaningless test myself. Bought a jar of "PRR Brunswick Green" (Polly-S, I think) and a jar of flat black. I then painted some samples for comparison. No matter what lighting I looked at these under they were both identical!!! One more thing, has anyone on this list ever heard the term "de-facto standard"? If the "dark green locomotive enamel" is currently refered to as "brunswick green", then so be it! A "floppy disk" is still a "floppy disk" even though you haven't been able to bend one for years. Why put so much effort into typing both names whenever the color is refered to? Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:41:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 418 Older passenger units were dark green locomotive enamel. The only colors ever used on PRR passenger locomotives (steam or diesel) was dark green locomotive enamel and Tuscan Red. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:47:57 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 478 In a message dated 97-08-19 08:14:37 EDT, hosam@gc.net writes: << Since PRR changed all loco colors to black, why not black with 5 stripes?? >> The PRR NEVER painted any of its locomotives black. They were only painted black by PC. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:57:11 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 556 In a message dated 97-08-19 09:54:42 EDT, britton@pit-magnus.com (Jerry Britton) writes: << Oh, geez, are dome cars on passenger trains next? (Remember, they didn't run due to low clearances. But thanks to Conrail's double-stack clearance project...) >> Are you assuming that PRR would have done the same clearance project? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 11:24:55 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 859 In a message dated 97-08-19 09:54:42 EDT, britton@pit-magnus.com (Jerry Britton) writes: << Oh, geez, are dome cars on passenger trains next? (Remember, they didn't run due to low clearances. But thanks to Conrail's double-stack clearance project...) >> Then Rich chimed in.... >Are you assuming that PRR would have done the same clearance project? Aren't the clearance problems for domes the tunnels at Penn Statioion NY and Baltimore? No one fixed the clearances there! If they did Amtrack would probably be running Superliners over the PRR! I guess domes from Pittsburg to Harrisburg would be ok... Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:29:48 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller" Subject: Re: Pennsy Gondola Cars Question Content-Length: 2137 Thanks, Rob. BTW I tried linking to your roster last night via Jerry's page, but go a "not available" msg w/ a neat Nexus logo. Maybe the link's been updated and Jerry doesn't know. I'll try the one you gave below. You know, I bought two of those G29's at the convention in Pgh last year, only to read the instructions (later, of course) and note that they were introduced in 41 or 42. Unfortunately, my era is rather specific to 1938 . . . yeah, I know, only a few folks will notice, but . . . On another tip, I found a Model RR Article in a 1993 issue on improving the ConCor gon . . . and one of his upgrades was a limited run G31 from the 1990 NMRA convention in Pgh. Then I found a photo of a G27 in the PRR Color Equipment book and they two series seem identical. So, I guess there IS an easy way to put a bunch of "period" gons on my layout . . . thanks, and I'll be checking your page. Vage; At 09:53 AM 8/19/97 -0400, Rob Schoenberg wrote: >You can check out my PRR freight cars pages at: >http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/freight > >There are at least one or two other cars listed on the gondolas page... >(quick list from memory... >Sunshine G29 >Revel/Con-cor (G27 or G31)) > > >Rob > > Vagel Keller Pittsburgh, PA vagelk@usaor.net THE INDUSTRIAL HERITAGE HOMEPAGE http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk _||_||_ || || || || || ||\ || || || || ||_||\\ /\_||__||__||__||_/\ \\ // \\ o x o x o x o . . . \/ \ \\ o _____ | | / \ >][_n_n_|HH] /====___ ________ ________ (_______|__]_[_______]_|\____/| |\____/| _/o OOOO o` oo oo 'oo oo' 'oo oo' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Two More CD's Available From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:45:36 -0400 Content-Length: 811 When the "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings" CD's were made, an extra three were written. Two remain if anyone is still interested. I have received only favorable comments from those who purchased the CD. For details on what's included and ordering information, see http://www.dsop.com/merchandise and disregard the deadline information shown. First come, first serve. Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:19:42 -0400 Content-Length: 1950 There may be other factors in where domes "might've-could've" run on the Pennsy, and that is the overhead wire in electrified territory. When the B&O had domes in service into and out of Washington DC, no one was allowed in the domes east of Silver Spring. I was told it was because they didn't want anyone sitting in the dome while the dome car was running under wires, which it did between Union Staion and Ivy City. Made sense to me at the time. Guess that's why I never saw a Pennsy dome east of Harrisburg. Later, Andrew Harmantas, unable to tell green from black. > ---------- > From: Rob Schoenberg[SMTP:robs@protocol.zycad.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 11:24 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) > > > In a message dated 97-08-19 09:54:42 EDT, britton@pit-magnus.com > (Jerry > Britton) writes: > > << Oh, geez, are dome cars on passenger trains next? (Remember, they > didn't > run > due to low clearances. But thanks to Conrail's double-stack clearance > project...) >> > > Then Rich chimed in.... > > >Are you assuming that PRR would have done the same clearance project? > > > > Aren't the clearance problems for domes the tunnels at Penn Statioion > NY and Baltimore? > No one fixed the clearances there! If they did Amtrack would probably > be running Superliners over the > PRR! I guess domes from Pittsburg to Harrisburg would be ok... > > Rob > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:48:59 -1000 From: "Eric J. Minton" Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1985 Aloha, Read in one of the PRR T&H publications that the paint mix is Seven parts Black and one part Dark Green. Eric SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-08-19 09:18:47 EDT, harmanta@monroe.army.mil > writes: > > << Do you know the can of worms you just opened? You wanna bring on a > bout > of Pennsy Rage from the die hards that insist the Pennsy only used > Dark > Green Loco Enamel on all their non-red engines? I side with you. > When > I visited Enola the day new U25Bs were coming on the property, I > walked > right up to them, and I still recall them as being painted pure > black. > Everyone tells me I am mistaken--couldn't've been--musta been > drinkin'--just looked like it but it was really Pennsy Dark Green. > Well, it was the darkest Pennsy Dark Green I had ever seen, and I saw > > lots of recently painted Dark Green locomotives. > > I paint all my Pennsy second generation power with gloss black, then > with mud and grime. Looks good to me. > >> > Just because it looks good doesn't make it right. I repeat the PRR > NEVER pai > nted any of its locomotives black. The PRR dk green locomotive enamel > (DGLE) > appears to be black except when placed beside a true black pigment. > Many > people are unable to discern the green in the paint. When you mix 5 > gallons > of very dark green with 50 gallons of black there isn'r much green but > it is > there. Do a spectrophotometer analysis It will not show black paint. > > Rich Orr > > -------- > -------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:55:38 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 657 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > Are you assuming that PRR would have done the same clearance project? Hi All, Since the original poster is planning to use his "modern" PRR Power to pull roadrailers and not TOFC's they wouldn't have needed to increase clearances. As for the domes, maybe the manufacturers will finally be able to sell some of the many erroneous domes they provide in PRR paint. Keep on Trackin' Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:13:13 -0400 From: Bob Zeolla Subject: Re: Can of Worms (was Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 425 Vagel C. Keller wrote: > This, of course, doesn't answer the question "Did the Pennsy ever paint > their locos black?" . . . perhaps that's a "mystery" better left uncovered. I like your attitude!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:18:53 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1141 In a message dated 97-08-19 11:34:28 EDT, zeolla@erols.com (Bob Zeolla) writes: << One more thing, has anyone on this list ever heard the term "de-facto standard"? If the "dark green locomotive enamel" is currently refered to as "brunswick green", then so be it! A "floppy disk" is still a "floppy disk" even though you haven't been able to bend one for years. Why put so much effort into typing both names whenever the color is refered to? >> A floppy may be a floppy but a 3 1/2 floppy isn't a 5 1/4 floppy. So called Brunswick green isn't Brunswick green And which shade of BG are you going to set as the standard. Every manufacture us different. The only true standard is found on the official drift cards which are not black. Drift cards are available from the PRRT&HS. If its worth doing, its worth doing right. That includes the color as well as the details of a model. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 549 In a message dated 97-08-19 13:51:11 EDT, eminton@hula.net writes: << Read in one of the PRR T&H publications that the paint mix is Seven parts Black and one part Dark Green. >> OK. I won't dispute that I didn't intend on being accurate. I was attempting to make a point. the 1:7 mix would be more green. Rich orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: Interlocking lever machine question Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:43:33 -0700 Content-Length: 442 Does anyone have any diagrams, drawings, photos, etc that describe the innards of a US&S interlocking lever machine? I'm interested in learning how the interlocking logic was implemented. Thanks for any help. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:16:38 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1440 Harmantas, Andrew G. wrote: > Do you know the can of worms you just opened? You wanna bring on a bout > of Pennsy Rage from the die hards that insist the Pennsy only used Dark > Green Loco Enamel on all their non-red engines? I side with you. When > I visited Enola the day new U25Bs were coming on the property, I walked > right up to them, and I still recall them as being painted pure black. > Everyone tells me I am mistaken--couldn't've been--musta been > drinkin'--just looked like it but it was really Pennsy Dark Green. > Well, it was the darkest Pennsy Dark Green I had ever seen, and I saw > lots of recently painted Dark Green locomotives. This is kind of interesting, considering that a few months ago on the Penn Central Mailing List, someone was saying that some of the early PC units were painted in Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. PC then later changed to black when the green ran out..... Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:10:19 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Domes? Content-Length: 491 Hello all.... Domes....LOL....why worry.....thats what Amtrak is for......LOL A PRR train just would'nt look right with a dome...now.... maybe a septa or marc train....but thats another story...... H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: NEWS FLASH-Rockville Bridge Collapsed! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 21:16:39 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 778 WHTM TV-27 (Harrisburg, Pa.) just made a special report (9:15 p.m., EST) that the Rockville Bridge, north of Harrisburg, on the Conrail (former PRR) mainline collapsed while a coal train was crossing it. At least three cars are in the river. This is truly a tragedy to PRR railfans. More to follow as details are released.... ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:43:50 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: Rockville Collapse!! Content-Length: 506 The local news in Harrisburg broke in on TV tonight to report that the Rockville Bridge has collapsed!! They had appsolutly no details, as to how much collapsed or anything else. they said the power was in the water with several cars. Anyone hear anything else yet? Tom von Trott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:54:27 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Paint Content-Length: 531 Hello again..... sheesh....well atleast its not gonna be silver like some of the G's were, could be worse.....could have been that yucky green PC used..... don't even want to think about that one......eREEERRRRRRR....yuck have fun folks.... H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:20:20 -0400 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Rockville Bridge "Collapse" Content-Length: 1042 This evening a Conrail freight train heading west across the Rockville Bridge derailed and appears to have caused damage to the bridge. The reports on television use the word "collapsed" as they describe the bridge. It is uncertain at this time as to whether the derailment or the "collapse" occured first. Conrail is reporting that nobody was hurt and that there are three hoppers in the river. There are also comments that there is a heavy smell of fuel in the air. That could be caused by the engine if it also derailed. Information is incomplete at this time and officials are talking about waiting until morning to try and move the train. reports on television don't show much because of the darkness. That is about all I can determine from the current reports. Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: UPDATE: Rockville Bridge Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 23:50:24 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2549 Just returned from the scene. I arrived at the west end at 9:45 p.m., on Routes 11/15, and parked about 200 yards south of the bridge. This turned out to be the best vantage point, as I learned the State Police had closed Front Street on the east side. My location south of the bridge, combined with the angle of the bridge, gave me about a 40-degree perspective. There were probably 200 or more cars there when I arrived. Many stopped to ask what was up, "Did a plane crash?" asked one couple. It was very dark when I arrived, and the workers on the scene had only flashlights. Gradually it become lighter due to the full moon. The collapse occured nearly in the center of the bridge, one span east of the signal bridge. I could tell at least one span was affected. There were signs of cars in the water. One TV station claimed three cars, another four. The remainder of the train was still on the bridge. It was a westbound coal train headed into Enola. It looked like it was about 3/4 across. The engines made it into the wye at the west end. At 11 p.m., the engines started up and they slowly pulled the westbound remainder off the bridge. Units were Conrail #6769 and #6402. (I don't follow current power, so someone else will have to ID these.) I lost track of a car count as an eastbound coal drag came in from the west and blocked my view. While the train was coming off, a person approached me who claimed to be a Conrail track foreman getting a glimpse before heading into work. He provided the following: -Accident occured around 8:10 p.m. -Train symbol UIR594 -CSX crew -400 feet of southern track out -center track dangling -northern track deemed unsafe and closed for 48 hours for inspection -all pipes and electrical lines were cut -no complete arches were lost -bridge is on National Historic Registry, so federal funds should pay for restoration with stone 8-) I left the scene at 11:15 p.m. It was dark and there was still no sign of a work train. Besides, the police wanted us to clear 11/15. That's it for now. Goodnight! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:42:33 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: RAILPIX-SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1235 Hello all stations; I have added the following new images to my site, Car crossing in front of Conrail train Septa AEM-7 #2302 Septa Cab Control Car #2407 Amtrak P-42-DC #78 with Viewliners Conrail Train at Shore Tower, Passed by Metroliner Conrail B-36-7 #5056 at Frankford Jct. Phila. Pa. Valley Railroad GE-44 Ton #0900 Amtrak Zoo Tower, a closer look. A third Penn Central Metroliner Postcard, on the RailCard Page. Enjoy !! Stan -- -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:26:42 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 537 I agree with Rich Orr on the "green-vs.-black" issue. I had always considered the Brunswick Green power to be essentially black. But when the first Penn Central GG1's (which were really black) showed up, they really looked different from the PRR engines. Even the squeaky-clean PRR ones...... Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: UPDATE-Rockville Bridge Collapsed! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 06:52:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1074 Morning news provides a clearer look at the Rockville incident last night. The problem started with a derailment, not a collapse. However, when several hoppers (w/ 100 tons of coal apiece) got off the tracks and near the side of the bridge, the side of the bridge gave out. Rather than having a "square" side now, it is shaved back in a rounded shape. The southern track just collapsed into the river, taking FIVE cars with it. The collapse also took out electrical lines, a very large water line, and a diesel fuel line -- the latter which has created a HAZMAT situation. No injuries, it was near the end of the train. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:26:23 -0400 From: bobsin@nac.net Subject: Not quite so way off topic Content-Length: 432 So, leaving all the cabin cars alone, is the plural of Dispatcher . . . Directors of the Movement Bureau? The good old days, when Enginemen ran the trains and the Rules were for Conducting Transportation. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:17:33 -0500 From: "S.A. McCall" Subject: Black Paint Content-Length: 847 Greetings, Well now that the blood pressure of the die-hard fans of DGLE(pronounced Brunswick Green) has risen to a new high, here comes the killer. Checking with NS their paint is 1 part black to 7 parts black. That is the same color all steam engines and those U25's were painted. PRR knows about black paint. Due to economy measures NS is changing their mix to 1 part black to 100 parts black due to high cost of the first black. If I were a CSX fan I would close with That's all for now, was sorry to hear of the bridge disaster, thankfully no one was hurt. HOSAM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:36:35 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy passenger units Content-Length: 1358 In a message dated 97-08-20 08:17:15 EDT, jer@smellycat.com (Jerry Jordak) writes: << This is kind of interesting, considering that a few months ago on the Penn Central Mailing List, someone was saying that some of the early PC units were painted in Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. PC then later changed to black when the green ran out..... >> This is actually true in a broad sense. The ALCO C636 (15 units), GE U33C and some EMD SD45 units which were ordered by PRR were already painted when the merger occurred. PC was able to stop the lettering of the units and accepted them without any logo or name in Dk green locomotive enamel with unit numbers only on the number boards. Reportedly these units were repainted black, lettered, numbered and logos applied at Altoona before they went into revenue service. I have not seen any information on other units being painted DGLE. Although considering the bitter disputes between the red and green teams and the availability of DGLE at Altoona, it is would not be unreasonable to have found a shop forman expressing himself by using DGLE on PC units. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:15:42 -0400 (EDT) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: Subj: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 1594 In a message dated 97-08-19 11:45:09 EDT from SUVCWORR@aol.com the question was asked: <> What effect do you think not doing the clearance project would have on the Pennsy in lost business to its competitors? Think back to the early 1980's when Santa Fe had no interest in double stacks. They soon changed their mind when UP and SP began taking away their "piggyback" business by enticing shippers with the benefits of double stack. If the Pennsy survived until today (as it does in our hearts), it surely would have made the clearance project a priority, maybe even sooner than Conrail did. After all, the Pennsy did not have an alternate "Water Level" or "Southern Tier" route with adequate clearances to gain and keep the business. Also, besides the doublestacks, the auto industry has driven the height for tri-level racks to 20'2". That would have affected the Pennsy's ability to keep the vehicle traffic. Even bi-levels are around 19'. That is a significant portion of railroad revenues today, with the railroads hauling about 70% of new vehicles (verses a dismal 10% in the early 1960's before the 85/89' auto rack). Question for the group: How would the Pennsy have routed the stacks/racks east of Harrisburg with the catenary clearance restrictions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:01:30 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pennsy Gondola Cars Question Content-Length: 1330 In a message dated 97-08-20 08:37:01 EDT, vagelk@usaor.net (Vagel C. Keller) writes: << On another tip, I found a Model RR Article in a 1993 issue on improving the ConCor gon . . . and one of his upgrades was a limited run G31 from the 1990 NMRA convention in Pgh. Then I found a photo of a G27 in the PRR Color Equipment book and they two series seem identical. So, I guess there IS an easy way to put a bunch of "period" gons on my layout . . . >> Without consulting photos, there appears to be a minor difference between the classes. While the inside deminisions are the same the distance over the sill is 2 inches shorter in the G31 and the extreme width of the G31 is 2 inches greater. While this is not noticable in an HO scale model, the fact that the difference in the width occurs at the top of the side may indicate a difference in the top chord construction. Putting that aside as possible nit picking, as I recall the primary difference is in the construction of the underframe. The G27 is riveted and the G31 is a cast frame. I may have this reversed. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SERVER NOTICE Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 20:51:52 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1458 Dear list subscribers: You probably noticed that there were very few postings today and that "Keystone Crossings" was largely unavailable. Though it took some time to discover the cause, a corrupt preference file for our mail server was playing havoc on our server, causing endless lockups. As a result, the listserv was unable to process very much existing or new mail; restoration of the mail database may have produced some duplicate postings (unknown to the listserv); FTP and Web service were down; and mail sent to DSOP.COM may have even bounced back to you. The problem appears to be repaired...due to our conclusions and actions as of 5:30 p.m. today. However, to enable mail and list service to catch up, I am keeping the FTP server offline until around 7 a.m. tommorrow. Sorry if this creates any inconvenience. On a bright note, "PRR-Talk" had a record 60 postings yesterday, resulting in over 9,000 e-mails to its 150 subscribers. Thanks again for making this a great list! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:11:24 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Not quite so way off topic Content-Length: 469 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > So, leaving all the cabin cars alone, is the plural > of Dispatcher . . . Directors of the Movement Bureau? > "Train Delayers" ................ "The Rule Book Giveth and the Dispatcher Taketh Away." SB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:40:22 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: PRR FA-2s & FB-2s Content-Length: 836 I have a couple of LifeLike Proto2000 FAs and FBs. I added the radio antenna and nose grabs on the side. I have painted them Brunswick Green (Dark Locomotive Enamal) and need to decal them yet. This is my question; does anyone make decals with the proper size numbers and distance between the letters? If not does anyone know what the spacing was on the letters or where I can get a drawing with the proper spacing of letters? Thanks for any and all help. Jeremy Helms P.S. I painted 2 SD60Ms today with one in DLE and one in Tuscan. I will decal and let everyone know which scheme looks better. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:24:35 -0500 (CDT) From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: Re: Black (?) Paint Content-Length: 894 S.A. McCall Wrote: > Checking with NS their paint is 1 part black to 7 parts black. That is >the same color all steam engines and those U25's were painted. PRR knows >about black paint. > > Due to economy measures NS is changing their mix to 1 part black to 100 >parts black due to high cost of the first black. ***** Um, kinda hate to do this; but every color photo I've ever seen of N&W steam always seemed to have a blue cast to it. Now admittedly, I am not a warranted NMRA Master Model Railroader- but I do know the difference between blue and green. Can you explain this discrepancy? Love and Kisses, Bob Boyd Those Classic Trains ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:28:10 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Black (?) Paint Content-Length: 1938 In a message dated 97-08-21 00:31:14 EDT, rboydrrs@inlink.com writes: << Um, kinda hate to do this; but every color photo I've ever seen of N&W steam always seemed to have a blue cast to it. Now admittedly, I am not a warranted NMRA Master Model Railroader- but I do know the difference between blue and green. Can you explain this discrepancy? >> OK I'll give it a shot. There are no naturally occuring black pigments suitable for use in oil base paints. Thus prior to the development of synthetic pigments "black" paint was simulated in one of three ways using natural pigments in oil base/lacquer base/ etc. paints. The process was the same for all three methods. Natural pigments of blue or red or green in their darkest shade obtainable were used to simulate "black" . The most often used method was a blue pigment. The result was that after exposure to sunlight and other environmental conditions, a bluish cast appeared. This was the result of sunlight bleaching the pigment slightly. Purely conjecture, but I suspect that for some reason (availability) the PRR used a green pigment based "black" very early in its history. The pigment was not able to achieve "black" color and the green tint was obvious alongside blue based "blacks". The green through time was simply adopted as the de facto color resulting in dk green locomotive enamel color. So when is black not black? When it is formulated with natural occuring pigments of blue, green or red. Remember black is define as the absence of all light. A true black paint will absorb 100% of the color spectrum and reflect no light. Any other situation is "near black". Not absolute black. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Black (?) Paint Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:32:52 -0400 Content-Length: 2207 > OK I'll give it a shot. There are no naturally occuring black > pigments > suitable for use in oil base paints. Thus prior to the development of > synthetic pigments "black" paint was simulated in one of three ways > using > natural pigments in oil base/lacquer base/ etc. paints. __________________ Really? Where do these pigments fit in: Mars Black (derived from iorn oxide, a naturally occurring material leached from rocks), and Carbon Black (derived from charred animal bones)? I only know a little bit about paint, but these are the primary source of black coloring in oil based paints for as long as I've been around. And now for a separate, but related issue--It should be pointed out that Brunswick Green was used above the running boards, but the frame and running gear was black. On a newly painted engine, I could see the difference up close. Even if this were not the case, as with other RRs which might have painted the entire loco in one solid color (like the =WM=), the trucks, pilot fuel tank and frame called for a a different type of paint than the car body. Although the same color, there was a slight visual difference between enamel and lacquer. Drift cards are one thing. Color variations from batch to batch are quite another. Changes in paint pigment technology every few years, along with the oil (or other liquid, such as oil modified alkyd resin) mixtures constantly changing make for quite a rainbow of possible variations of the very same color. There is little argument about the changes to Pennsy's Tuscan Red as paint maufacturers shifted away from lead and heavy metallic based pigments to synthetic colors. Many of us have seen the results of this evolution and understand its basis. I still say U25B 2500 I saw at Enola when brand new was black, or so it seems to me, Andrew Harmantas, SPF of long standing, currently watching the rail action at C&O Milepost Zero (nothing moving today). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:16:59 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: Bustleton Branch Content-Length: 859 Hello all, Does anyone have information on the history of the Conrail, ex-PRR, Bustleton Branch in Phila. Pa. Thanks, Stan -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR SD45's Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 15:44:20 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1622 Hi all, Just got an undec Kato SD45 last night. Couldn't wait for the painted ones! Quality is comprable to the SD40's except for the hideous yellow LED's that Kato tries to pass of as headlights! (I found a company that makes nice bright white LED's to replace them...) Has anyone else gotten one? What modifications have to be made to make them PRR units? (other than a coat of DGLE! and some Keystones!) At first glance here's my list... What did I miss?!!!! 1- Grabs on front of short hood - model has drop grabs above attachment nuts- PRR had straight grabs below the nuts. 2- PRR has the cab signal box on the front walk so the grabs on the top and side of the low hood have to move to the other side. 3- Headlight - all the PRR units I've seen have shades under the front headlights. 4- The last two orders of SD45's had high mounted brake cylinders. Guess I won't model on of these! 5- MU stands. The model has one next to the drop step. PRR units had one on each side of the step and another mounted higher on the handrail. 6- MU hoses. PRR had 4 of them on each side of the coupler. Model has mounting dimples for 3. 7- The brake wheel at the rear of the unit. Kato's recess for this is very shallow compared to units in photos. That's all I saw at 1am last night. What did I miss? Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:21:26 -0400 (EDT) From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Subject: PRR Tail Lantern Content-Length: 861 Hello all, This is my first time to participate with you great Pennsy fans. A friend offered to sell me a Pennsy Lantern. It is a single red lens device with a small PRR on the side. It has a square steel adapter designed to fit in a groove on a Cabin or car. It also has a twist feature so the lens can be faced over an arc of about 40 degrees. It is painted yellow and appears to be in great shape if not some copy. Does anyone know how to tell if it is vintage PRR? And, does any one have an idea of it's value? Thanks Jerry Schoenberg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:26:55 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: PRR SD60Ms Content-Length: 860 Hello all. I have just started to decal the units and the dark green locomotive enamel is the definite winner of the sharp looks category. The tuscan unit definitely requires black walkways and pilots (like Conrail). I was wondering what all of you think would be the best color for the modern day safety stripes: white, gold, or yellow? The striping I am referring to is on the step edges and on the corner handrails. I am requesting any and all inquiries. I will send in pictures of this unit when completed. It was definitely a group project (all of you web-ites). Jeremy Helms -Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 05:55:09 -0400 (EDT) From: JDPanza@aol.com Subject: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 1594 In a message dated 97-08-19 11:45:09 EDT from SUVCWORR@aol.com the question was asked: <> What effect do you think not doing the clearance project would have on the Pennsy in lost business to its competitors? Think back to the early 1980's when Santa Fe had no interest in double stacks. They soon changed their mind when UP and SP began taking away their "piggyback" business by enticing shippers with the benefits of double stack. If the Pennsy survived until today (as it does in our hearts), it surely would have made the clearance project a priority, maybe even sooner than Conrail did. After all, the Pennsy did not have an alternate "Water Level" or "Southern Tier" route with adequate clearances to gain and keep the business. Also, besides the doublestacks, the auto industry has driven the height for tri-level racks to 20'2". That would have affected the Pennsy's ability to keep the vehicle traffic. Even bi-levels are around 19'. That is a significant portion of railroad revenues today, with the railroads hauling about 70% of new vehicles (verses a dismal 10% in the early 1960's before the 85/89' auto rack). Question for the group: How would the Pennsy have routed the stacks/racks east of Harrisburg with the catenary clearance restrictions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:15:05 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Number of switchers Content-Length: 505 Did PRR have any guidelines for determining the number of switchers assigned to a yard, such as # of sidings or amount of traffic, or were they just requested as needed? Do records exist anywhere showing what was assigned where? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 09:51:58 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR SD60Ms Content-Length: 1361 In a message dated 97-08-22 01:31:22 EDT, PRRSD45@aol.com writes: << Hello all. I have just started to decal the units and the dark green locomotive enamel is the definite winner of the sharp looks category. The tuscan unit definitely requires black walkways and pilots (like Conrail). I was wondering what all of you think would be the best color for the modern day safety stripes: white, gold, or yellow? The striping I am referring to is on the step edges and on the corner handrails. I am requesting any and all inquiries. I will send in pictures of this unit when completed. It was definitely a group project (all of you web-ites). >> Since the Pennsy used yellow safety paint on the step edges and handrails beginning in the early 50's, I'd vote to keep it yellow on the DGLE. Modern would probably be 3" Scotchlite reflective tape. You may want to modernize further by placing the same tape on the edge of the side sill. Tiger stripes may be too much especially with the five stripe. However, a clear coating of reflective paint or glass beads over the five stripes might be an idea. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:07:27 -0400 From: Zeolla Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 634 JDPanza@aol.com wrote: > > Question for the group: How would the Pennsy have routed the stacks/racks > east of Harrisburg with the catenary clearance restrictions? If I'm not mistaken, the mainline was 4 tracks wide. Assuming that electric evolved as today, for only passenger service, I'd vote that the catenary was removed on two of the tracks used exclusively for freight service. Bob Zeolla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:23:39 -0500 From: tmahon@cfnh.com (Tom Mahon) Subject: K7/8 Drawings Content-Length: 530 I am looking for a source of drawings/details re K7 or K8 stock cars. I have the PRR Passenger and Freeight Car Diagrams book, but am looking for something that might be avail from MRR or Rail Model Craftsman or Mainline Modeller, or ... Enjoy the chat. Thanks in advance. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:30:50 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 2578 Oh no! Now you've done it - set me off about electrics! >If I'm not mistaken, the mainline was 4 tracks wide. Assuming that >electric evolved as today, for only passenger service, One reason I've heard for electric service being discontinued was Amtrak's outrageous charges to Conrail for the "juice". Some think that this was an overt attempt to get freight off of Amtrak owned rails, which eventually resulted in the re-birth of passenger service on the NE corridor. Failure to find passenger only corridors elsewhere may be the reason for Amtrak's overall failure to grow on a national basis. As for electric freight in North America - while rare, it is alive and well. Both BC Rail and the Black Mesa and Lake Powell run freight electrics. > I'd vote that the >catenary was removed on two of the tracks used exclusively for freight >service. I'd vote for some really nice modern 6,000 hp brutes (Like the BC Rail GF6C), under catenary, pulling those double stacks - which BTW fit under standard catenary clearances. Of course, some tunnel and bridge clearances would need to be improved, but those improvements would be required for double stacks anyway. I have an old American GK E60F (single cab freight version of the Amtrak E60) which I planned to paint in PRR. I'm always looking for another one so if you have one stuck in the closet and want to sell it... I also have two of the GF6C models offered by Tumbler Ridge last year, but those will get painted BC Rail. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:13:31 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: Subj: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 2136 In a message dated 97-08-22 11:02:17 EDT, JDPanza@aol.com writes: << What effect do you think not doing the clearance project would have on the Pennsy in lost business to its competitors? Think back to the early 1980's when Santa Fe had no interest in double stacks. They soon changed their mind when UP and SP began taking away their "piggyback" business by enticing shippers with the benefits of double stack. If the Pennsy survived until today (as it does in our hearts), it surely would have made the clearance project a priority, maybe even sooner than Conrail did. After all, the Pennsy did not have an alternate "Water Level" or "Southern Tier" route with adequate clearances to gain and keep the business. Also, besides the doublestacks, the auto industry has driven the height for tri-level racks to 20'2". That would have affected the Pennsy's ability to keep the vehicle traffic. Even bi-levels are around 19'. That is a significant portion of railroad revenues today, with the railroads hauling about 70% of new vehicles (verses a dismal 10% in the early 1960's before the 85/89' auto rack). Question for the group: How would the Pennsy have routed the stacks/racks east of Harrisburg with the catenary clearance restrictions? >> I suspect that if the PRR had survived the Allegheny Yard and Same Rea line (both of which were under design at the time of the great demise) would have been built. Allegheny yard was to have been near but not in Altoona. The yard would handle all long distance freight movements and by-pass the Altoona complex. Trains would have been classed at Conway, Allegheny and Enola. The Sam Rea line was intended to by-pass Pittsburgh. this would have been the primary route for transcontential service (TOFC Containers tanks cars etc.) no tunnels, all new construction with adequate clearance. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:24:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: K7/8 Drawings Content-Length: 1087 There was an article in MM about modeling these cars serveal years ago. Drawings were supposed to be included. They were not with the article and an editorial comment indicated they would be published at a later date. When they did not appear for several issues, I FAX Bob Hundman and asked about the promised drawings. It went as a letter to the editor. My letter never received a response nor was it ever published as a letter to the editor. The only other source of drawings would be through the PRRT&HS once the material is all sorted and catalogued. The society has complete mechamical drawings for most modern classes of cars. Availability at the moment is extremely limited. Rich Orr PS I recently heard a rumor the someone (Eastern Car works or Bethlehrm) is going to produce the sides in brass for kit bashing the Bowser round roofs. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Rockville Bridge Update Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 13:25:45 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1552 Work began at 8 a.m. this morning to remove the five hoppers from the Susquehanna River. Working from a staging area on the east side of the river, downstream to the south, large bulldozers and dump trucks were actually going to drive "through" the river to reach the site. The river is estimated to be at about three feet in this area. It should be interesting, as there are "holes" in the river bed. I can just see Conrail having a dump truck swallowed up! The two northern tracks have been back in service. The news this morning showed a new "frame" already in place on the face of the bridge. Shouldn't take too long to make repairs. Relatively minor damage...considering. Turned out the bridge had been inspected just hours before the accident. The track in question was found to contain a "dip". Bids for the work went out, and supposedly a contractor was hired, with work to commence August 23. Don't know why they kept the track open, but I guess the tension across the train on the "inner side" of the curves was enough to bounce the train off when it hit the dip. Live and learn. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:32:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Rockville bridge/road trip Content-Length: 1849 Hmmm. I see someone already posted about his trip to the Rockville bridge to the CR-Talk and misc.transport.rail.americas, so I won't go much into specifics about that. For lack of time I passed on the boat rental (wish I could have) but did get some pix from along the shore in (south of) Marysville. To get there, go to PA 850 in Marysville on US 11/15, turn onto it, and then make (I recall) a left, a right, a left, and go through the underpass. Make a right on the far side (after going under 11/15 and the tracks). At any rate I also yesterday picked up some stuff, and noted some things: a) the MDC/Roundhouse RS-3 has what looked like a lousy if not incorrect paint scheme on the Pennsy variant. Will have to get a better look at some point b) Got one of the Model Railroad StoneWorks 3 track 2 arch 30 degree spew bridges. Looks pretty good. A bit pricey, and I don't know how I'm going to get the space for the depth I need on my layout yet.. Need to perhaps change my plans Also got a Tiger Valley Models RS27 (DL640) the other day; Since you can order by roadname/number and he'll ship you the correct details I got a Pennsy unit. The frame casting is ok but the walkway (cast into it) has a small flaw where the metal was poured into the mold (it looks like). Nothing major. The bigger problem is the cab casting seems to have bowed doors on the back, which is to say, a bulge out in the center when looking at it from top to bottom. Given that no one makes a DL640 I'll live with it. I'm looking at adapting an Atlas drivetrain to it since I don't like his drive system. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:34:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: Subj: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 1032 > I suspect that if the PRR had survived the Allegheny Yard and Same Rea line > (both of which were under design at the time of the great demise) would have > been built. Allegheny yard was to have been near but not in Altoona. The > yard would handle all long distance freight movements and by-pass the Altoona > complex. Trains would have been classed at Conway, Allegheny and Enola. The > Sam Rea line was intended to by-pass Pittsburgh. this would have been the > primary route for transcontential service (TOFC Containers tanks cars etc.) > no tunnels, all new construction with adequate clearance. I had not previously ever seen reference to either of these; They sound interesting, if not good "what-if" model ideas... Any place where one might "read more about it"? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:35:19 -0700 From: John Riedell Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 609 PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > Of course, if the PRR still had the influence that it once had, it could have > teamed up with the other Eastern "low-clearance" carriers and forced the > shippers and carbuilders to dance to IT'S tune. > Now, now. That kind of attitude was (is?) part of the problem. You don't force a customer to do things your way, you do things HIS way. jawnhenry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:14:33 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: K5 Pacifc Content-Length: 434 I'm interested in anything anyone knows about the 2 K5 pacifics the Pennsy had. I know the Baldwin one had Poppet valves as built, and a very large, hand fired, boiler, but I don't now much else. Tom von Trott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: K5 Pacifc Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 19:18:48 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 779 >I'm interested in anything anyone knows about the 2 K5 pacifics the Pennsy >had. I know the Baldwin one had Poppet valves as built, and a very large, >hand fired, boiler, but I don't now much else. > I know that once the diesels came along, the lone two K5s went to the Northern Central Railway line between Baltimore and Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR Today (Was: Re: Pennsy passenger units) Content-Length: 1115 In a message dated 97-08-22 06:01:41 EDT, JDPanza@aol.com writes: >How would the Pennsy have routed the stacks/racks >east of Harrisburg with the catenary clearance restrictions? > > That's a VERY interesting subject on which to speculate. My belief is that the PRR would somehow have had to eliminate the restrictions. This could have entailed raising the wire (and everything else!), or possibly even dieselizing certain routes just like Conrail did. Had the PRR stayed in business, they would by now have a fleet of state-of-the-art new electric power, so we don't really have to think about trying to run GG1's, E44's, etc. under higher clearances. Of course, if the PRR still had the influence that it once had, it could have teamed up with the other Eastern "low-clearance" carriers and forced the shippers and carbuilders to dance to IT'S tune. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry W. Fitch IV" Subject: PA Museum at Strasburg Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:14:54 -0400 Content-Length: 401 Anyone know what the PA museum at Strasburg uses for paint to do restoration work on PRR locomotives? Color? Source? Type? Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: LISTSERV Operating Procedures Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 13:10:17 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1730 Dear DSOP.COM list subscribers, Since I do not have this information posted anywhere, I want to share with you the circumstances under which a subscriber's subscription might be discontinued by me. The new listserv software returns to me a daily report of problems in sending mail. Yea! While I do not take immediate (first offense) action against an address causing an infraction, repeated instances will result in deletion of the subscription on the following grounds: 1) When the subscriber's mail host returns a message of "user unknown". 2) When the subscriber's mail host returns a message of "the account had permanent errors". (We cannot take the time to troubleshoot someone else's mail server.) 3) When the listserv reports that "mail could not be delivered after numerous retries". (This one I allow to go one full week prior to deletion, as it can mean the person's mailbox is full and they are on vacation.) If I delete your account "in error", I apologize. You will need to resubscribe. However, keeping the subscriber list "clean" is of utmost priority. Thank you. REMEMBER: You can only post to the lists using e-mail addresses that you are subscribed from. If you want to post from work and home, you must subscribe from both locations! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:01:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Stripping Paint Content-Length: 643 I recently purchased a couple of Diesels that I must repaint. Can anyone provide the most effective means and/or procedures for safely removing the paint? The models are a P2K FA2, and a Athearn SE GP38-2 to be repainted in current LIRR color scheme. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Another unrelated question: What colors were the PRR heavyweight interiors, including seat coverings? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:03:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Eichhorn@aol.com Subject: Stripping Paint Content-Length: 643 I recently purchased a couple of Diesels that I must repaint. Can anyone provide the most effective means and/or procedures for safely removing the paint? The models are a P2K FA2, and a Athearn SE GP38-2 to be repainted in current LIRR color scheme. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Another unrelated question: What colors were the PRR heavyweight interiors, including seat coverings? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: Stripping Paint From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 16:18:04 -0400 Content-Length: 1418 Re the Athearn SE GP38-2, Athearn undec shells are usually available, cheap. You might consider buying one instead of trying to strip the one you have. P2K is anohtoer issue. I haven't heard of their shell being available, although they were very helpfull in supplying missing parts for my E8s in response to a phone call. Re LIRR heavyweights. The Keystone ran an article several years ago on the LIRR HWs. I don't recall if any references (opr fotos?) were made to the interiors. regards Andy Miller >I recently purchased a couple of Diesels that I must >repaint. Can anyone provide the most effective means >and/or procedures for safely removing the paint? The >models are a P2K FA2, and a Athearn SE GP38-2 to >be repainted in current LIRR color scheme. Any help >would be greatly appreciated. Another unrelated >question: What colors were the PRR heavyweight >interiors, including seat coverings? > >Thanks, > >George > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: Stripping Paint Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:41:11 -0400 Content-Length: 2617 Almost any Athearn shell can get dunked in auto brake fluid with no bad effect on the shell itself. The brake fluid, if fresh and kept sealed so it won't absorb any moisture, will quite literally float away most Athearn paint jobs in only a few hours. The P2K shells are another matter. These seem to be made of similar pastic to Kato and Atlas. Other modelers tell me they've had good luck with Scalecoat's paint remover for plastic, and a similar, more expensive product named Chameleon. Please don't use brake fluid on your other than Athearn or MDC shells, as you could destroy the shell. Good Luck, Andrew Harmantas, SPF, among other stuff. > ---------- > From: > asmiller@mail11.mitre.org[SMTP:asmiller@mail11.mitre.org] > Sent: Monday, August 25, 1997 4:18 PM > To: Eichhorn@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: Stripping Paint > > Re the Athearn SE GP38-2, Athearn undec shells are usually available, > cheap. > You might consider buying one instead of trying to strip the one you > have. > P2K is anohtoer issue. I haven't heard of their shell being available, > > although they were very helpfull in supplying missing parts for my E8s > in > response to a phone call. > > Re LIRR heavyweights. The Keystone ran an article several years ago > on the > LIRR HWs. I don't recall if any references (opr fotos?) were made to > the > interiors. > > regards > Andy Miller > > >I recently purchased a couple of Diesels that I must > >repaint. Can anyone provide the most effective means > >and/or procedures for safely removing the paint? The > >models are a P2K FA2, and a Athearn SE GP38-2 to > >be repainted in current LIRR color scheme. Any help > >would be greatly appreciated. Another unrelated > >question: What colors were the PRR heavyweight > >interiors, including seat coverings? > > > >Thanks, > > > >George > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact > "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:48:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Webber Subject: PRR (& More) material Content-Length: 1527 OK, I am back from the convention and will list what I have. I do not have a price for some as I'm not sure what they're worth - I will be asking for your help on this. The prices I have put down are less than I have found anywhere else.... I don't want to cheat anyone - and don't want to be cheated. I will be doing some research on my own. I will be digging out the periodicals next. For those who sent me messages, I did receive them - they are on another PC and I have to transfer them and will respond when I can get them moved. Steel Rails To The Sunset Reading Power Pictorial $80 Keystone Steam & Electric (soft) PRR Rolling Stock VOL I Diners (soft) Western Maryland Diesels (soft) PRR 1950 Track Charts Volume I (soft) PRR 1950 Track Charts Volume II (soft) Northeast Rail Scene (various volumes - Soft) $15 ea Architecture & Engieering of Amtrak's Washington - New York Corridor New England Alcos in Twilight (soft) $20 57 Plans MOW PRR (Soft) $30 PRR Standard MOW Plans (soft) $35 50 Best of PRR Volumes 1,2,3 (soft) Eastern Steam Pictorial $65 Nickle PLate Story $50 Delaware & Hudson $80 Pennsy Steam & Semaphore $45 Pennsylvania Railroad (Alexander) $35 On the Main Line $40 The Cars of the PRR (Waynor soft) Locomotives of the PRR (Warner soft) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:19:55 -0400 (EDT) From: VVA249@aol.com Subject: Re: Railroad help - PENN STATION LIVES ! Content-Length: 2532 Reply to posting of 8/14 re info on Penn Station New york - remodeling. Try Fall 97 (current) issue of "American Heritage of Invention and Technology" magazine (Forbes Publishing 60 Fifth Ave NY NY 10011) Article by William D. Middleton "Penn Station Lives" - presume it is exerpted from his book - although magazine does not say so. Ten pages - with photos and overview sketch map (1946) of New York area terminals of the PRR. Ariticle covers construction of Penn Station - the tubes - and allied improvements including electrification DD-1's and the Hell Gate Bridge. Interesting points - Hudson River "tubes" were driven through fluid silt - and actually float up and down a fraction of an inch with every tide. Alexander Cassat originally wanted to build a hotel or office building above the station but was dissuaded by architect Charles Follen McKim who submitted an exterior plan inspired by the Tuscan collonnade of St Peter's of Rome - and an interior plan patterened after the Roman Baths of Caracella. The demolition of this structure is said to have given impetus to preservationists all over the country. In answer to the original question Middleton writes "By happy coincidence, space has become availible in New York's monumentall James A Farley Post Office, just across Eight Avenue." "The Post Office building was completed in 1913 on a site directly above the platforms, and like the station, was designed by McKim. Architects now envision the conversion of a large mail handling room in the central court of the Post Office into a "Great Hall" that will house a waiting room, a concourse and other station facilities. New pedestrian and Taxi entrances will be established and an underground passageway will link these spaces to the remainder of the station. "A complex financing plan involving Federal State City and Amtrack contributions has been established and work MAY begin soon. Still greater things may be in store for Penn Station - under a study being completed by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. One conception envisions one or two new tunnels under the Hudson to bring even more trains to the enlarged Penn Station - and a new tunnel link with Grand Central Terminal Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:36:18 -0400 From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: I1 4483 Content-Length: 550 Does anyone know the current location of I1 4483? I know it's is Western New York someplace. Is it on display? I also heard a rumor that it is under restoration, I'd assume cosmetic (an I1 is service would be to good to be true, maybe someday, they said the same thing about a UP Challenger!) is this true? Tom von Trott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 23:33:40 -0400 (EDT) From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Subject: PRR Tail Lantern Content-Length: 859 Hello all, This is my first time to participate with you great Pennsy fans. A friend offered to sell me a Pennsy Lantern. It is a single red lens device with a small PRR on the side. It has a square steel adapter designed to fit in a groove on a Cabin or car. It also has a twist feature so the lens can be faced over an arc of about 40 degrees. It is painted yellow and appears to be in great shape if not some copy. Does anyone know how to tell if it is vintage PRR? And, does any one have an idea of it's value? Thanks Jerry Schoenberg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:39:28 -0800 From: Kevin & Maureen Subject: I1 Decapod Blueprints Content-Length: 387 Does anyone know the whereabouts of a COMPLETE set of I1 Decapod blueprints or erecting diagrams? I am more interested in a copy rather than an original. Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 01:47:48 -0700 From: Stan Feldman Subject: PRR-Vintage-Ad-Page Content-Length: 875 Hello all, From my vast collection of outdated and useless information, I have created another page, a PRR Vintage Ad Page - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/vintage.html Stan -- *********************************************************** -----STAN'S RAILPIX---------- Railroad Photo Gallery http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** Be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it !! *********************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:02:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Jpk815@aol.com Subject: PRR Corrugated Cars Content-Length: 661 I'm in the market to purchase some PRR corrugated passenger cars in N-scale. I need 6 coaches a baggage car, also a diner if they make one. I know about the (con-cor) set, but don't want to waste my hard earned $ on a fictional dome car and tail car that will never run on my Pennsy layout. (are you listening con-cor???) Anyone who would like to sell these or possibly trade, please respond by return e-mail. Thanks, J.P. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Rockville Bridge Footage Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:18:52 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1089 WHTM TV-27 in Harrisburg has given me permission to digitize a "Rockville Bridge" news segment (that I taped) into QuickTime format for distribution via "Keystone Crossings". I likely won't get to it until Wednesday evening, but you can look forward to it in the meantime. It will be available via Web and FTP. The 10 minute or so segment includes ariel shots, track level shots, and shots from the river (in a boat). It includes info on how/why the derailment occured, rebuilding, and shows removal of the hopper cars. Look forward to it. (It will be included on "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings, Volume II", to be announced in November.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: SERVER SPEED Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:29:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 2228 Both "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" have grown significantly over the past few months, as have visits to the "Keystone Crossings" web site. It's been a while since this was discussed, so I will reiterate... Yes, the site is slow. It is connected via a dedicated PPP dial-up connection with an X2 modem. Maximum speed is 53K, though compression yeilds much higher at times. Given all the server software that is running through it, it has actually done quite well. People are often surprised to hear that it is a modem. (Although FTP users probably know quite well and curse at it!) These sites are of a non-profit nature, and piggyback onto my consulting business's existing Internet connection (DSOP.COM, Desktop Solutions). Since my business Internet needs are more-or-less met, I cannot justify an increase in speed (err, cost). However, I do offer Web site hosting at the incredible low price of $20 per month for 50MB of disk space. More space is available if needed, and CGI access is allowed. If anyone needs a large space for their site, please call me. Proceeds WILL go back into a faster connection. (Most ISPs in my area offer 2-10MB for $20 per month w/ a dial-up POP account. I do not offer dial-up POP accounts, however.) I am currently soliciting bids for ISDN service (128 - 512K w/compression), but have found it to be largely unavailable in my area. That leaves fractional T1, which lacks the compression advantage. In either case, I will have about a $1,400 initial installation plus increased monthly service fees. If anyone out there needs a lot of disk space for their personal or business site, I would appreciate you contacting me at "jbritton@dsop.com" as it will benefit the railfanning community as well. Thank you. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: PRR Corrugated Cars Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:43:11 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1324 >Iím in the market to purchase some PRR corrugated passenger cars in N-scale. > I need 6 coaches a baggage car, also a diner if they make one. > >I know about the (con-cor) set, but donít want to waste my hard earned $ on >a fictional dome car and tail car that will never run on my Pennsy layout. >(are you listening con-cor???) Anyone who would like to sell these or >possibly trade, please respond by return e-mail. Union Station Products offers many custom cars/kits that match prototypes closely. Check out http://www.dsop.com/merchandise/usp.html for a listing. Among their offerings are the post-war twin diner set. HO-scalers will be pleased to hear that Eastern Car Works (they offer core car kits used by many companies that make car sides) is coming out with a corrugated core kit. Union Station Products plans to make use of this core kit to produce several Budd cars. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRR Corrugated Cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 16:01:28 -0400 Content-Length: 1042 I don't believe the PRR ever had a fluted baggage car either. So stick to looking for coaches and the diner. regards Andy Miller >Im in the market to purchase some PRR corrugated passenger cars in N-scale. > I need 6 coaches a baggage car, also a diner if they make one. > >I know about the (con-cor) set, but dont want to waste my hard earned $ on >a fictional dome car and tail car that will never run on my Pennsy layout. >(are you listening con-cor???) Anyone who would like to sell these or >possibly trade, please respond by return e-mail. > >Thanks, >J.P. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: PRR Corrugated Cars From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 16:01:28 -0400 Content-Length: 1042 I don't believe the PRR ever had a fluted baggage car either. So stick to looking for coaches and the diner. regards Andy Miller >Im in the market to purchase some PRR corrugated passenger cars in N-scale. > I need 6 coaches a baggage car, also a diner if they make one. > >I know about the (con-cor) set, but dont want to waste my hard earned $ on >a fictional dome car and tail car that will never run on my Pennsy layout. >(are you listening con-cor???) Anyone who would like to sell these or >possibly trade, please respond by return e-mail. > >Thanks, >J.P. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [N] PRR Corrugated Cars Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:04:34 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1092 On 26 Aug, Jpk815@aol.com wrote: > I know about the (con-cor) set, but don't want to waste my hard earned $ on > a fictional dome car and tail car that will never run on my Pennsy layout. Please note that Rivarossi is back in the passenger car business, and is (will be?) producing more of those corrugated cars that Con-Cor sells in absurd sets, as well as the PRR smoothsides Huron Rapids (a dead accurate (ACF?) 10-6), Mountain View (accurate Broadway obs) and the semi-whacko non-PRR RPO. Microscale has name-only decal sheets to rename your fleet. Yes, Rivarossi also sells these cars in sets, but they're quite intelligently put together. The corrugated sets are baggage+coach+obs, or three coaches. The smoothside sets are (I think) RPO+sleeper+obs, or three sleepers. > (are you listening con-cor???) In my experience, no... Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [N] PRR Corrugated Cars Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:04:34 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1092 On 26 Aug, Jpk815@aol.com wrote: > I know about the (con-cor) set, but don't want to waste my hard earned $ on > a fictional dome car and tail car that will never run on my Pennsy layout. Please note that Rivarossi is back in the passenger car business, and is (will be?) producing more of those corrugated cars that Con-Cor sells in absurd sets, as well as the PRR smoothsides Huron Rapids (a dead accurate (ACF?) 10-6), Mountain View (accurate Broadway obs) and the semi-whacko non-PRR RPO. Microscale has name-only decal sheets to rename your fleet. Yes, Rivarossi also sells these cars in sets, but they're quite intelligently put together. The corrugated sets are baggage+coach+obs, or three coaches. The smoothside sets are (I think) RPO+sleeper+obs, or three sleepers. > (are you listening con-cor???) In my experience, no... Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:52:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Bob Webber Subject: PRR (& More) material Content-Length: 1514 I will be replying to notes sent so far - I have added some PRR books at the end. If anyone has price guidelines for the ones not priced, I'd appreciate hearing from you. I definately want this material to go where it will do good and not to collectors. I figure this is the best venue for that. Steel Rails To The Sunset Reading Power Pictorial $80 Keystone Steam & Electric (soft) PRR Rolling Stock VOL I Diners (soft) Western Maryland Diesels (soft) PRR 1950 Track Charts Volume I (soft) PRR 1950 Track Charts Volume II (soft) Northeast Rail Scene (various volumes - Soft) $15 ea Architecture & Engieering of Amtrak's Washington - New York Corridor New England Alcos in Twilight (soft) $20 57 Plans MOW PRR (Soft) $30 PRR Standard MOW Plans (soft) $35 50 Best of PRR Volumes 1,2,3 (soft) Eastern Steam Pictorial $65 Nickle PLate Story $50 Delaware & Hudson $80 Pennsy Steam & Semaphore $45 Pennsylvania Railroad (Alexander) $35 On the Main Line $40 The Cars of the PRR (Waynor soft) Locomotives of the PRR (Warner soft) Pennsy, A to T (soft) PRR Through Train Service (Spiral - Ed Gardner) PRR Accounting Department Maps of Divisions 1941 (1979 reprint Rails Northeast) Facts About the Proposed Merger of the PRR & NYC (Penn-Central - soft) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Railfest '97 - Who's Going? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 07:02:24 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 1947 I'm at a point where I need to make my plans for RailFest...due to my daughter's b'day the same week. I can only make it one day. Many have e-mailed me off-list about a "PRR-Talk" latchup. I'd like to survey the list for those who can attend... Which day is better: Saturday (Oct. 4) or Sunday (Oct. 5)? Both days are open 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. I prefer Saturday. There are rail excursions over the curve at 11:40, 1:30, and 3:20 on Sat., and at 9:50, 11:40, 1:30, and 3:20 on Sun. What is prefered, morning, noonish, or afternoon? The Conrail shops are open. What is prefered, morning, noonish, or afternoon? The museum would likely be the "central" meeting/gathering place, if any, and is also where the new movie "Altoona at Work: An Era of Steam" is being shown. It has also been suggested that we meet up for dinner...like at Hoss's Steak House, or something. It was looked into, but no meeting room is available. Who would be into a dinner meeting? I can make up nametags for the event, complete with a "PRR-Talk" standout and each persons e-mail address. 8-) My suggestion: Saturday Meet at the museum and view the film 1:30 excursion over the mountain Afternoon tour of the Conrail shops Dinner at 6ish, an hour after closure of all facilities Get back to me with survey ideas and I'll coordinate a schedule which accomodates most "listers." Thanks. BTW: Admission is $10 per day, $15 for both days. Children are cheaper. Excursion is $12 per seat. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [N] PRR Corrugated Cars Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:56:20 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 2523 On 26 Aug, Angels6@aol.com wrote: > How many of us really care if every detail is prototypically accurate ? > > I am just happy to have the wide range of equipment that ConCor (and > everybody else for that matter) puts out. I'll second Robert E. Jackson's comments about Con-Cor's manufacturing quality, and raise him bad wheels and poorly glued sheet-metal weights. However, there's more than just prototype accuracy and manufacturing quality. No, I don't care about each little detail, and there are other lists for that kind of concern. I can sand and repaint every car roof they can't mold properly. I can replace wheelsets. I can add all the weight I want. I object to Con-Cor inserting a poorly made, atypical Budd dome car into a set of great-looking Rivarossi ACF prototypes. Didn't you notice that the corrugation, roof, skirting, and trucks were completely different? I object to Con-Cor making them only available in a set that forces you to buy a (very distinctive) baggage-dorm and an observation car for every pair of coaches. I object to Con-Cor making a model of one particular sleeper (when there are dozens of noticeably different types of sleepers) and then installing a short coach interior. I *really* object to Con-Cor scaring everybody else out of the passenger car business (like Con-Cor, Rivarossi did their tooling years ago). Mostly, I object to Con-Cor being the only game in town. > If some of us want total realism, > then we ought to build it ourselves. Some of us do build them ourselves, just to get the "look" right. The PRR "look" includes window arrangements, roofs, trucks, and diaphragms. Thankfully, Brass Car Sides and Union Station Products are both producing quality car sides for PRR prototypes, and I've started experimenting with Bill Darnaby's bashing techniques. Microscale and Fine N Scale both make good PRR passenger-car decals. BUT, Con-Cor still gets a share of my dollars, even if I cut the walls off. THAT galls. Con-Cor has done some things well enough to serve as a good base for quality passenger models, like the RDCs, bi-levels, Superliners, Viewliners, and MHCs, and they are to be rewarded for that. They also do bad things, for which they should be scolded. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Black (?) Paint Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:37:30 -0400 Content-Length: 1215 ---------- > From: Robert A. Boyd > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: Black (?) Paint > Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 12:24 AM > > > Um, kinda hate to do this; but every color photo I've ever seen of N&W > steam always seemed to have a blue cast to it. Now admittedly, I am not a > warranted NMRA Master Model Railroader- but I do know the difference > between blue and green. > > Can you explain this discrepancy? > > Love and Kisses, > > Bob Boyd > Those Classic Trains > Greetings, That's exactly why the NS changed the formula!!!!! If that don't explain it I guess you will just have to shoot me!!!!! Actually the black seems to reflect the beautiful Southern skies we have here....... > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: Re: Black (?) Paint Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:49:17 -0400 Content-Length: 1239 ---------- > Um, kinda hate to do this; but every color photo I've ever seen of N&W > steam always seemed to have a blue cast to it. Now admittedly, I am not a > warranted NMRA Master Model Railroader- but I do know the difference > between blue and green. > > Can you explain this discrepancy? > >> > So when is black not black? When it is formulated with natural occuring > pigments of blue, green or red. Remember black is define as the absence of > all light. A true black paint will absorb 100% of the color spectrum and > reflect no light. Any other situation is "near black". Not absolute black. > Greetings, I seem to remember the prof making that statement in some class, never gave it a thought until your post. Now comes the question, If true black reflects no light and an engine was painted this way it would disappear before the painters eyes............. Now if we could come up with a true black, what a stealth plane color that would make!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Black (?) Paint Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 13:42:10 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 845 > Now comes the question, If true black reflects no light and an engine was >painted this way >it would disappear before the painters eyes............. > > Now if we could come up with a true black, what a stealth plane color >that would make!!!!! If a stealth plane crashed in the woods, would it make a sound? If a man is in the middle of the woods, and his wife is nowhere around, is he still wrong? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:53:24 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Off subject in the woods Content-Length: 673 In a message dated 97-08-27 14:16:32 EDT, you write: << If a man is in the middle of the woods, and his wife is nowhere around, is he still wrong? >> Depends on who you ask. According to the fem-a-nazis, any man is wrong simply because he breaths. At least that is what my card carrying fem-a-nazi secretary tells me. Of course I do provoke her when I tell her that NOW stands for National Organization of Wannabee (men). Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jim Clay Subject: Bowser H9 Help Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:37:54 -0400 Content-Length: 583 I'm currently assembling a Bowser H9 Consolidation and would like to fill the hideous gap under the cab with something that looks more prototypical. None of the reference material I have available shows the detail in this part of the engine. Anyone out there who has completed one of these kits and has some suggestions? Any feedback would be most appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:19:30 -0400 (EDT) From: TVPedro@aol.com Subject: Off the subject but still on the subject of trains Content-Length: 723 If anyone is in the woods it is the public reading the schedules on the Amtrac Web site. They changed several schedules on Aug.1 (two which I am aware of is train 1 now leaves New Orleans at 2:00 PM, instead of 3:00 pm and Train 40 leaves Pittsburgh 45 minutes later at 9:00 AM instead of 8:15 AM) yet they still have the old schedules on the web page, is this any way to run a Railroad? Sunday nights Train 40 departure from Chicago had Seven Roadrailers on the rear going thru PA on Monday. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:06:00 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Off subject in the woods Content-Length: 673 In a message dated 97-08-27 14:16:32 EDT, you write: << If a man is in the middle of the woods, and his wife is nowhere around, is he still wrong? >> Depends on who you ask. According to the fem-a-nazis, any man is wrong simply because he breaths. At least that is what my card carrying fem-a-nazi secretary tells me. Of course I do provoke her when I tell her that NOW stands for National Organization of Wannabee (men). Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:26:09 -0400 (EDT) From: PRRSD45@aol.com Subject: Looking for annual stock report Content-Length: 1109 Hello all. I wanted to let you all know that I was looking for an annual stock report for the PRR during a prosperous year. Actually I am only looking for a photocopy of one. I would be willing to pay for the costs incurred for copying and shipping. I am also looking for a copy of a recent annual stock report from any of the 7 mega railroads. I am looking to put together a 1996 Annual Stock Report to Stockholders for the Pennsylvania Railroad. I need these pieces of info to help make it as realistic as possible. Thanks for any and all help and feel free to email me direct if you do not want to post. Jeremy Helms -Pennsylvania Railroad into the Future P.S. Just received an undecorated Kato Dash 9. This is the unit that is going to be the first completely detailed and painted model for modern PRR. I will take pictures of it and send it in for posting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:39:11 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: Looking for annual stock report Content-Length: 1103 Hi Jeremy and All, I have a copy of the centennial annual report on loan from a friend. It is the Ninety-Ninth Annual Report For the Year Ended Dec. 31, 1945. Inside it claims to report on the third most prosperous year in Pennsy history (to date?). I'd be glad to copy it for you or for anyone else unless someone sees a copyright issue involved. Please note: There are several color plates in the front of old calender paintings and other paintings in that style or from old magazine ads that would be spendy to copy. If you are only interested in the data it would be relatively cheap to copy. I took the liberty of sending this to the list on the chance that Jerry or Dan C. or Rich O. or some of the other advanced historians on the list could use the info. Thanks and let me know, Ron. P.S. Fascinating reading, especially between the lines. R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:58:32 -0400 (EDT) From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Subject: Lock Haven Content-Length: 1076 I model the Harrisburg- Buffalo line circa 1962-1968 and am looking for any info on the operations concerning the Hammermill paper plant in Lock Haven. I know that currently the Alleghany RR. brings wood chip unit trains from the ex PRR Erie line down to Lock Haven for the plant. A friend of mine who went to school in that area has pictures of F units in PC paint performing the same service in the 1970-1972 era. What I'm trying to determine is how the PRR transported the chips in the early to mid sixties. I know the PRR had some H-21 F hoppers that had extensions added for woodchip service but my info indicates that these were for the Gladfelter plant in York. I know that box cars with grain doors were also used in chip service. Anyone out there have any idea how the PRR got the chips to Hammermill ???? Or shall I just wing it ???? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:57:43 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1244 Hello! A friend asked me about interchanged sleeper and express traffic between AT&SF and PRR, and the only instance that I could document in the postwar era was some Imperial (4-4-2) class sleepers interchanged between the Broadway and the Chief and later the Super Chief. His data shows PRR R50B, B60B, B70A, B74B, and some PRR Railway Express X29 cars in the consist of the AT&SF "Fast Mail Express". Can anybody point me to info on other sleeper and express interchanges? I've seen a PRR map that shows sleepers interchanged with several of the Western roads, but I don't know which sleepers these were. Of course, in the spirit of the "Everybody's a PRR modeller" thread awhile back, I'm just trying to get all my friends to add a PRR sleeper to their passenger trains... Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ ####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:10:19 -0500 From: Bob Webber Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Content-Length: 2112 A few years ago, when I was modeling PRR and all around me were modeling western roads, I tried to model the cars that I could slip into their trains. I had a AT&SF car, a UP car, a Zephyr car, a Wabash car and I remember some others. When I get home tonight I can give you more info - there was a list printed at one time with all of the PRR cars that were for "foriegn service". The AT&SF car was in two tone grey, the UP in yellow and the Zephyr was obviously stainless steel. Interestingly enough, this has come up on other lists lately too..... Bob At 09:57 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hello! A friend asked me about interchanged sleeper and >express traffic between AT&SF and PRR, and the only instance >that I could document in the postwar era was some Imperial >(4-4-2) class sleepers interchanged between the Broadway and >the Chief and later the Super Chief. His data shows PRR >R50B, B60B, B70A, B74B, and some PRR Railway Express X29 >cars in the consist of the AT&SF "Fast Mail Express". > >Can anybody point me to info on other sleeper and express >interchanges? I've seen a PRR map that shows sleepers >interchanged with several of the Western roads, but I don't >know which sleepers these were. > >Of course, in the spirit of the "Everybody's a PRR modeller" >thread awhile back, I'm just trying to get all my friends to >add a PRR sleeper to their passenger trains... > >Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com > _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ >####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### > >I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 10:10:45 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1441 >Hello! A friend asked me about interchanged sleeper and >express traffic between AT&SF and PRR, and the only instance >that I could document in the postwar era was some Imperial >(4-4-2) class sleepers interchanged between the Broadway and >the Chief and later the Super Chief. His data shows PRR >R50B, B60B, B70A, B74B, and some PRR Railway Express X29 >cars in the consist of the AT&SF "Fast Mail Express". > >Can anybody point me to info on other sleeper and express >interchanges? I've seen a PRR map that shows sleepers >interchanged with several of the Western roads, but I don't >know which sleepers these were. See: Blardone, Charles, Jr. and Peter Tilp, "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering," Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, 1988, ISBN 0-9619729-0-4, softcover, color, 128 p. One-third of this book is dedicated to inter-line service and contains photos, painting diagrams, and rosters of cars interchanged with other lines. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: AT&SF sleeper interchange? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 10:33:34 -0400 Content-Length: 2782 Dennis, Both the SF and the PRR contributed 4-4-2s to the B'way-Chief pool. The SF used its prewar Pullman-built fluted cars. In HO one is available from Eastern Car works. A picture of one exists in the soft bound book on the B'way Ltd. I regularly run TCHIREGI in my B'way. The PRRT&HS book on painting PRR passenger cars shows routes and paint schemes for MP (Texas Eagle), T&P/Frisco (Texas Special), UP (City of ...) and SILVER RAPIDS for the California Zephyr. One of my (many) current projects is a Union Station Products 14-4 to be painted for the Texas Special to run in the PennTexas. (Train #1) PRR and REA cars frequently travelled all over the country. They were interchanged almost like freight cars! Not only did they carry the FedEx of their day for the REA but most weekly magazines were distributed from various east coast printing plants to every part of the country in the days before FTP and computer typsetting. I have consist lists for PRR Interregional passenger trains showing X29s and B60s listed as carring LIFE, LOOK, COLLIER'S, and the Saturday Evening POST. Ahh, the America of Grif Teller and Norman Rockwell. There will never again be "good ole days" like those good ole days. regards Andy Miller >Hello! A friend asked me about interchanged sleeper and >express traffic between AT&SF and PRR, and the only instance >that I could document in the postwar era was some Imperial >(4-4-2) class sleepers interchanged between the Broadway and >the Chief and later the Super Chief. His data shows PRR >R50B, B60B, B70A, B74B, and some PRR Railway Express X29 >cars in the consist of the AT&SF "Fast Mail Express". > >Can anybody point me to info on other sleeper and express >interchanges? I've seen a PRR map that shows sleepers >interchanged with several of the Western roads, but I don't >know which sleepers these were. > >Of course, in the spirit of the "Everybody's a PRR modeller" >thread awhile back, I'm just trying to get all my friends to >add a PRR sleeper to their passenger trains... > >Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com > _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ _______ >####(|oo=oo||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______||_______)##### > >I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G." Subject: RE: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:42:36 -0400 Content-Length: 1354 There are pool arrangements, through cars, leased cars, and I-don't-knw-what-all. So what one saw on a train could be one of many kinds of arrangements. I recall seeing these passenger car liveries on Pennsy trains departing Union Staion (D.C): GN orange and dark green heavyweight Pullman Union Pacific yellow/grey/red stripes heavyweight Pullman South out of D.C. blocks of Pennsy red passenger cars were typical on the Florida trains, although pooled cars on solid train sets was the most typical arrangement. And, into and out of Louisville on the Southwind was the NP Dome, in NP two toned green, leased for the occasion, I'm told. Don't forget the MKT/Frisco Texas Special Cars that continued on Pennsy trains east of St Louis. Kinda neat to see that bright red and stainless steel running up Horseshoe Curve. Saw some MoPac and Sante Fe cars on B&O trains out of D.C., but that's another story. Andrew Harmantas, Waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero __________________________________________________ > >Can anybody point me to info on other sleeper and express > >interchanges? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:49:32 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Content-Length: 787 Dennis, The book _Night Trains_, by Peter Maiken, pub by Lakme Press, P. O. Box 10380, Chicago, Ill 60610, in 1989, ISBN 0-9621480-0-8, lists car consists and train routings for a "hypothetical" midnight in March, 1952, showing all the sleepers for all US railroads the writer found for that time. It does not identify car ownership, but gives car types (accomodations) and enables one to trace the entire route of a car in interchange. Pennsylvania RR Consist Books, if you can find them, also give interchange train connections. Stephen Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:59:05 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Content-Length: 735 Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Ahh, the America of Grif Teller and Norman Rockwell. > There will never again be "good ole days" like those good ole days. > > regards > Andy Miller > You said it!! In 1951, my first two hamsters arrived in Beaumont, Texas, from Mobile, Alabama, via Railway Express and the SP. And does anyone remember the endless cartons of cheeping baby chicks? Them were the days. Of course, Dolly Parton wrote a song about "The Good Old Days, When Times Were Bad." Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: AT&SF sleeper interchange? From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org (Andrew S. Miller) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 11:06:08 -0400 Content-Length: 918 . . . I recall seeing these passenger car liveries on >Pennsy trains departing Union Staion (D.C): >GN orange and dark green heavyweight Pullman . . . >Andrew Harmantas, Waiting to see the trains at C&O Milepost FM Zero The GN cars were leased during the winter months by SAL and ACL. During the winter the Fla trains had BIG business while the Pacific Northwest was relatively light (Monatana in January is not vacationland!). So this leasing arrangement was a match made in Heaven. I run an Empire Builder duplex sleeper (Bad Axe River) from Eastern Car Works in my Fla streamliners. I always wanted an excuse to paint one of those beatiful cars. regards Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:38:02 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Content-Length: 426 Just remembered another sighting-- back in the 1960's it was not unusual to see a heavyweight MP baggage car in Eagle colors in Sunnyside Yard. I don't know what trains it travelled in. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 12:08:16 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1443 Seems like I'm always saying "I plan to add xxx to 'Keystone Crossings'...", but... The past two weeks I've had much commercial HTML work to do (grin) so I haven't put a lot of time into "KC". My current area of concentration, however, has been the Passenger Class List and linked rosters. So far, it's been all Pullmans that I have entered. Many of the rosters that are in place note dates of assignment and repainting of specific cars for interline use. When ALL of the class rosters are in place, then I will be creating pages for each specific interline train the PRR participated in. These pages, in turn, will link back to the roster pages. The Web allows much cross-referencing. The hard part is deciding where to start. I am starting with the Class Roster pages. These pages include floor plans, available models, and rosters with car numbers and names. They will eventually include profile drawings and photos as well. Again, seems like I'm always saying "Stay tuned..." --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR freight cars page... Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 13:14:05 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 1560 Hi all, Two reasons for posting. The first to to let everyone know that I've made a few changes & updates to my PRR freight cars pages. http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR/freight There is now at least some information for most classes of PRR cars. This includes lists of published photos, magazine articles, and for cars on the roster in 1944 or beyond, roster information spanning several years. Still to come will be descriptions of the classes and more photos, articles, and modeling info. The page for the X61 is pretty complete as are the X26, X29 and F30 pages. Let me know what you think (and if there are any problems or inaccuracies on the pages!) Also, does anyone on the list want to give me a hand on these pages?! It's a pretty large undertaking! Unfortunately there's no one stop reference on PRR freight cars. Most of the info on the pages comes from photo captions in various books and from magazine articles. If you know about PRR freight cars and have the time, I could use help writing short descriptions/histories of any classes of PRR freight equiptment. I also need photos of PRR freight cars for the pages. Do you have any I could use? Thanks! As Jerry B always seems to be saying :) ... Stay tuned... Rob S. robs@protocol.zycad.com http://www.internexus.net/~robs/PRR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR pages from ORER's Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 13:20:08 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Content-Length: 480 Hi Does anyone on the list have copies of the PRR pages from pre 1944 ORER's that they could photocopy and send to me (or scan and e-mail)? I'm trying to extend the roster info on my PRR freight pages back to include years before 1944. Thanks Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jonathan Goldstein Subject: PRR Freight Car Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Length: 1250 This weekend, I went to a store called Material Culture just off the Roosevelt Blvd. in Philadelphia. It's in the building where the old Atwater Kent radio factory used to be near Hunting Park Avenue. Imagine my suprise as I pull into the parking lot and am staring a PRR freight car sitting on a rail spur right in the parking lot! I couldn't get close enough to see anything other than the big PRR on the side. It was parked near, but distinctly seperate from, a bunch of Conrail cars. I wonder how long it's been sitting there? _____________________________________________________________________________ Jonathan S. Goldstein jonathan@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~jonathan/home.html Any opinions offered herein shall not be considered a substitute for paid professional advice. _____________________________________________________________________________ Learn to shoot. The life you save may be your own. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: ATSF pullmans Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:14:55 -0500 Content-Length: 678 On the subject of these interchange cars, as a teenager I remember seeing the ATSF switcher transfering a car (to B&O in the particular case, I think) in Chicago. Does anyone know what the policy was as to who transferred a car? Was it like the Chicago union transfer freight rules prior to the 70's, that is, did originating road switcher always make the transfer movement (Pennsy transfer the Westbound car, ATSF the eastbound car?) and deadhead back? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: PRR freight cars Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:15:21 -0500 Content-Length: 684 In 1994 I twice videotaped PRR flatcars in Conrail trains passing Colehour yard in Hammond. Amazingly, not only were they in relatively good condition (they were the newer GSC cars --I am at office so don't have my classification data) and reasonably fresh paint, but Pennsylvania was spelled out, not the abbreviated PRR. Anybody know the whys and wherefors of these cars 26 years after Doomsday? They at least looked to be in regular service, though empty. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:58:49 -0500 Content-Length: 850 More than one video shows Texas & Pacific baggage (express) cars in MoPac colors in the "Duquesne". I bought a Rivarossi car in MoPac colors for my PRR Mail & express train, but it isn''t very close to the T&P cars in design. Gives the flavor (and the color) though. Regarding sleepers, those Eastern car works 4-4-2's with deep skirting are fascinating to me: I have the undec kit, paint colors, and microscale decals for a Golden State run-through, but it is in my stack of uncompleted projects. By the way, I have seen a photo or video of two State cars on one train on the Curve. Must have been a good patronage month. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:22:36 -0400 From: Jim Hudson Subject: Re: AT&SF sleeper interchange? Content-Length: 1491 Here are the interline trains I know about... Please let me know of any corrections/additions. Thanks! I've often wondered why there were no GN or NP interchanges... ATSF Broadway Limited -- The Chief C&NW -UP Overland Route The Admiral -- Los Angeles Limited MILW - UP ?? City of Denver Broadway Limited -- City of San Francisco C&NW - UP-SP The Admiral -- San Francisco Overland Limited CB&Q -D&RGW - WP The General -- Exposition Flyer/California Zephyr CRI&P -- SP The Golden Arrow -- Golden State Limited SLSF -- MKT The American -- Texas Special SLSF The American -- The Meteor MP -- T&P The Penn Texas -- The Sunshine Special RF&P - ACL - FEC The Champion The East Coast Champion The West Coast Champion The Havanna Special The Florida Special L&N - ACL - FEC The Southwind RF&P - SAL Silver Meteor Silver Star Silver Comet Orange Blossom Special SRR The Southerner The Crescent Ltd C&O The George Washington The FFV NYNH&H - B&M - MC The East Wind NYNH&H Congressional Senator Patriot Colonial Federal William Penn NYNH&H - CV - CN Montrealer Washingtonian -- -Jim Hudson wjhudson@erols.com http://www.erols.com/wjhudson/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:42:35 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR pages from ORER's Content-Length: 445 Rob: I stopped this evening at the PMRHS library. They have the July 1944 ORER. THe PRR is 16 pages. I'll copy it over the weekend for you. Please send you mailing address. I'll let you know the amount. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:53:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Subject: Re: PRR-MofW Car #'s Content-Length: 1104 In a message dated 97-08-01 03:50:26 EDT, you write: > > > > Has anyone ever seen a list of PRR > > psgr cars converted to work train service? > > Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com > > > > There's sort of a reverse list for former heavyweight Pullman cars > only, contained in the 290-page Bob Wayner publication "Complete Record of > Heavyweight Pullman Cars." By reverse list, I mean that you start with the > car's original > diagram designation/lot number, date, and name, and follow it through > any renamings/renumberings I wonder if there is a roster of the mow cars anywhere. If not, I would be willing to post, as time permits, what is available. Unfortunately, I think that most of what I have is Pullman cars, no coaches or diners, but even so, that is a big list initself. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:16:34 -0400 (EDT) From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Subject: PRR MOW Content-Length: 1035 Does anyone out there know if the Wayner publication "Complete Record of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" book is still available ? I'm compiling a PRR mow roster and am looking for the Pullman names and PRR assigned numbers of the cars converted to mow service. I currently have 780 cars in the data base and would like to continue to fill in the empty slots. If anyone has photo's or info on any existing equiptment I would appreciate any info. I am willing to make the data available to any of the PRR talk group. I,ve searched almost all PRR publications , Rails Northeast and Pennsy Journal, The Keystone and a Conrail mow roster to get to this point. In the data base I also include photo location if one is available. Thank You, Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:34:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR: Conrail and NS Content-Length: 1028 When I was back home (Coraopolis, PA) for vacation, I hooked up with a friend one day and we drove to Rochester, PA, ostensibly to observe the guts of the Rochester interlocker being removed for preservation in the Western Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. The Air Force Reserve personnel, who were to do the removal, never showed up, so I got to spend a lot of time train watching and nosing around the inside of the tower. I also spent a lot of time talking to the Conrail employee who had to be on site to be sure there were no problems. He was very unhappy with the take over and split up of Conrail. Is that the general consensus among Conrail employees?? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:16:37 -0400 (EDT) From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Subject: PRR Tail Car/Cabin Car Lantern Content-Length: 943 Hello all, This is my first time to participate with you guys. A friend offered to sell me a Pennsy Lantern. It is a single red lens device with a small PRR on the side. It has a square steel adapter designed to fit in a groove on a Cabin or car. It also has a twist feature so the lens can be faced over an arc of about 40 degrees. It is painted yellow and appears to be in great shape if it is not a copy. Does anyone know how to tell if it is vintage PRR latern? And, does any one have an idea of it's value? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jerry Schoenberg Thanks Jerry Schoenberg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RailFest Excursion Slated for 1:30 Saturday Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 10:20:51 -0400 From: "Jerry Britton" Content-Length: 1102 A few people have committed to attending RailFest on Saturday. More are likely to follow. I had proposed that the group take the 1:30 p.m. excursion. I need to "put that in stone" at this point -- at least for those wishing to participate as a group. The "PRR-Talk" "official" excursion train will be the 1:30 train. You are responsible for buying your own ticket. I recommend you do so now! This train is 50% sold out. The reason for the "lock in" is that I am working with the museum director and he WILL reserve a group of seats so we can sit together...regardless of arrival time. I will ask for a confirmation count later. Just get your tickets!!! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com 1 JPEG = 1K words ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:30:30 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: P2k E7 color Content-Length: 547 Walthers says the P2K E7's will be tuscan. I thought that a while back it was stated here that nothing was painted tuscan until something like '51. Is my memory fading, is P2K wrong, or does this represent a repaint & I'm stymied again in trying to model the late 40's? -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: New Paint Scheme for PRR Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:07:19 -0400 Content-Length: 967 Greetings, It's me again. Had a great idea for a new color scheme for the "new" PRR after it's taken over by NS. Simply change the formula of DGLE(pronounced Brunswick Green). Here's how to do it--increase the green, reduce the black--throw in whatever is necessary to approximate the Sylvan Green of the old Southern. May have to leave out the black altogether. We certainly don't want anyone to think the NS is painting PRR engines black!!! Use gold letters and apply a PRR keystone logo under the cab similar to the way SRR used to letter for Subsidiary roads. Think about it, doesn't sound too bad when you get used to it!!!!!! Otherwise the engines will all be painted DBLE (pronounced Norfolk Black). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "s.a. mccall" Subject: New Paint Scheme for PRR Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:07:19 -0400 Content-Length: 967 Greetings, It's me again. Had a great idea for a new color scheme for the "new" PRR after it's taken over by NS. Simply change the formula of DGLE(pronounced Brunswick Green). Here's how to do it--increase the green, reduce the black--throw in whatever is necessary to approximate the Sylvan Green of the old Southern. May have to leave out the black altogether. We certainly don't want anyone to think the NS is painting PRR engines black!!! Use gold letters and apply a PRR keystone logo under the cab similar to the way SRR used to letter for Subsidiary roads. Think about it, doesn't sound too bad when you get used to it!!!!!! Otherwise the engines will all be painted DBLE (pronounced Norfolk Black). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 29 Aug 1997 15:14:30 -0500 From: Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com Subject: Jack's Narrows and Spruce Content-Length: 1348 I have been studying a track plan by John Armstrong published in the Kalmbach book "20 Custom Designed Track Plans" , pages 51-53, titled Pennsylvania Railroad Middle and Pittsburg Divisions. It is large by most home layout standards (24' by 36' in S scale) but features several of the best known landmarks in the PRR assult on the Alleghenies, including Altoona, Horseshoe Curve, a shortened Rockville Bridge, Jack's Narrows, and Spruce. I am currently planning construction of a new home and will include a real layout room. I would like to preserve the full 24' by 36' size but do the layout in HO scale, that would result in minimum mainline curves of 48"! I am familiar with and have visited all the landmarks included in the plan except Jack's Narrows and Spruce, which are both refered to as photogenic trackage by mister Armstrong. My questions to the group are (1) where are Jack's Narrows and Spruce located, and (2) does anyone have any references to published pictures and descriptions of these two areas? Thanks for any respones. Bill Laird Houston, TX email Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: PRR Round-roof in N&W service Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:05:31 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Content-Length: 1486 >From a posting in one of the RR newsgroups, there's a picture archive at Virginia Tech containing photos of N&W cars. I've been looking for data on PRR round-roofs in service for other railroads (so I can reward Fine N Scale for making the models), and this is a jackpot. It also shows the PRR influence on the N&W. Go to http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/imagebase.html Do a subject search for box car Look at the B1 and B4 boxcars. Although some of these aren't boxcars (there's a doodlebug and an intermodal), it's invaluable. Most of the following are 40' single-door, flush-roof, round-roof boxcars. Excellent photos. N&W 46447, photo taken in 1937. 47299, blt 4-39, mfd by Pressed Steel Car Co. 46429, blt 2-37, repainted and repacked at "SC" in 8-50 (lettered Norfolk *and* Western, different dimensional stencil). N&W 46355, also 1937, blt 2-37. There are excellent interior shots of B1 and B3, showing tie-down loops on the carlines(?) supporting the roof. B3 52200 looks like an X32a, 50' DD, flush round roof, blt 3-39. B4 52400 and B4A 52350 look like X38: 50' DD, Damned Pennsy Roof... N&W 60993 and 60875 are *not* round-roof, although labelled B1. I'm going decal shopping this weekend! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:58:34 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: K-5 locos Content-Length: 2668 Hello all... Someone recently was asking about the two K-5 locos...here is what i have from either Pennsy Power or from The PRR T & HS..... Both were built in 1929 as experimentals....the goal was to try to get more tractive effort from the same wheel arangement...this did happen,but they had a lower factor of adhesion. the altoona built engine was 5698 it had Walschaert valve gear. 5699 was the engine built by Baldwin .It had the Caprotti gear(similar to poppets) They featured cast steel frames and integral cylinders.They were the only engines with class 130P70tenders(similar to the later tenders used on the K-4)these tenders also featured the 2F-T3 type trucks (similar to a commonwealth type).these were replaced in later days with the type used on K-4s(2F-T2)The Baldwin engine had a slightly longer smoke box.They had feed waterheaters and power reverses as built. Both were hand fired as built but later stokers were added.One of there spotting features was the bell.This was placed under the headlight. 5699s Caprotti gear was removed in December of 1936 and replaced with the Walshaert type..this practically then made them identical. The best i can tell they were used Philadelphia-Pittsburg until 1936 probably because of the steaming problems they had with pulling trains on the middle Division(possible water carry over) They were then assigned to the Northern Central between Baltimore and Harrisburg. Here they stayed until they were retired....5698 in 1952 and 5699 in 1953. About 1949 they were given the front-end "beauty treatment" and pretty much stayed that way until retirement.(note) when they were upgraded in 1949 the bell was moved to under the platform that was added to the front. It may be possible to model one in H.O.using Bowser parts... I haven't tried it yet...You could use the K-4s mech,the M-1a cylinders and the NEW I-1 boiler...(this boiler is also designed to fit on the old I-1 frame,the OLD boiler was used not only on the old I-1,but on the K-4s and there L-1s.so it may fit). running boards might be a problem...Has anyone out there done one?... Well thats about all i can say without writing a book.... Later folks H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:20:40 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: P2K E7 color Content-Length: 612 Walthers shows the upcoming P2K E7 as being tuscan. I thought I remember postings here saying that the tuscan scheme wasn't introduced until about '51. Am I wrong, is P2K wrong, or could this reflect a later repainting of a unit originally painted in dark locomotive enamel? -- -Stymied again trying to model the late '40's ???- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:09:33 -0400 (EDT) From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Subject: Re: P2k E7 color Content-Length: 851 All the E-7's were delivered in Brunswick Green with the 5 stripe scheme in gold leaf. Also the first two orders I believe of the E-8's were also delivered in the same scheme. In 1952 ( not sure when ) The official paint color for Passenger units was changed to Tuscan Red as was the striping scheme to 5 stripe dulux gold . The LL E-7 with the small number boards should be painted in the green/gold leaf 5 stripe scheme. I believe that the larger number boards applied by the PRR were done when the units were repainted. Has anyone ever seen a color picture of an E-7 in tuscan 5-stripe with the original number boards?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce Date: Sat, 30 Aug 97 07:41:43 -0400 From: Jerry Content-Length: 2677 >I have been studying a track plan by John Armstrong published in the >Kalmbach book "20 Custom Designed Track Plans" , pages 51-53, titled >Pennsylvania Railroad Middle and Pittsburg Divisions. It is large by most >home layout standards (24' by 36' in S scale) but features several of the >best known landmarks in the PRR assult on the Alleghenies, including >Altoona, Horseshoe Curve, a shortened Rockville Bridge, Jack's >Narrows, and Spruce. I am currently planning construction of a new >home and will include a real layout room. I would like to preserve the full >24' by 36' size but do the layout in HO scale, that would result in minimum >mainline curves of 48"! Note that you cannot scale this layout down exactly proportionally. In S scale, Armstrong has some narrow aisles. If you take it down proportionately, the aisles will become too narrow. > >I am familiar with and have visited all the landmarks included in the plan >except Jack's Narrows and Spruce, which are both refered to as >photogenic trackage by mister Armstrong. My questions to the group are >(1) where are Jack's Narrows and Spruce located, and (2) does anyone >have any references to published pictures and descriptions of these two >areas? Both are just off Route 22 in central Pennsylvania. Jack's Narrows is the narrow gap between the mountains just west of Mount Union, and is home to the railroad on the south, the Juniata River, and Route 22 to the north. The tower location is at the west end of town and is very easy to find. I had heard the tower was restored. I believe there are only two tracks there now. There had been as many as five from some pictures I have seen. Spruce Creek is very photogenic. Continue west from Mount Union to the town of Water Street. At Water Street, bear right, following the signs for Route 45. After just a few short miles (3-4) there will be signs for Route 45 to State College. Take that route; it bears right. After 3-4 miles you will come parallel to the main line. There is an overlook which is a great place to park. Looking back down the main to the east, you cannot see, but can see where the trees are cleared, the opening for the Spruce Creek tunnels. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:02:20 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce Content-Length: 1338 Bill Laird wrote: >I am currently planning construction of a new home and will include a real layout room.....track plan by John Armstrong titled... > >Pennsylvania Railroad Middle and Pittsburg Divisions. I would like to preserve the full 24' by 36' size but do the layout in HO scale, that would result in minimum mainline curves of 48"! > Jerry wrote: > Note that you cannot scale this layout down exactly proportionally. In > S scale, Armstrong has some narrow aisles. If you take it down > proportionately, the aisles will become too narrow. > > Bill and Jerry, My interpretation of Bill's aim is that while he plans to build the railroad in HO rather than S, he intends to keep the same room size (24' X 36'). This would shrink the benchwork. Except for points where Bill expands the original areas, the result would be equal or greater aisle space. I'm glad to see you are NOT planning to reduce the curve radii proportionally as well. Keep them large, put in easements equal in length to two passenger cars, and you will have some beautiful trackwork there. Stephen Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:44:18 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: P2k E7 color Content-Length: 678 Gentlemen: Don Ball's _Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s_ includes good closeup pictures on pages 177 and 179 of Engines 5863 and 5853, respectively, in tuscan red with 5 stripes and original, small number boards. Robert Yanosey's _Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol I_, page 84, also shows an E-7 in the same scheme with the small, original number boards. The number appears to be 5853 or 5859, or (?) Stephen Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:51:04 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Track Pans Content-Length: 690 Several weeks ago there was a discussion on tender scoops and track pans, in which the associated signals were mentioned. While looking for E-7 pictures today I came across a picture in Don Ball's _Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s-1950s_, page 127, showing the track pan at Mapleton (Pa.?) with one of the track pan signals. Unlike one other picture I remember, this location does not have the finished stonework covering the ballast surface. Stephen Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:22:02 -0400 (EDT) From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: P2k E7 color Content-Length: 410 the P2K is a repaint of the E7s not the as delivered paint scheme. You are correct in the date of Tuscan application. Eventually all passenger diesels were repainted tuscan. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:16:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr." Subject: PRR: Scanner legislation - long Content-Length: 14021 This came through on the area listserver while I was on vacation. I did not receive any PRR messages the entire time I was gone, so if this has appeared previously, I apologize in advance and you can just delete it. If this has NOT appeared before, someone let me know, as I have two new posts pertaining to the subject. From: Myron Malone Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:54:24 -0500 To: railspot@ms1.nwla.com Subject: RS: Scanner Legislation (more info) A couple of weeks ago, listmember Rich Wallace advised us about proposed federal legislation which could severely restrict the ability to purchase scanners as we know them. It could also further restrict the ability to use them. I have come across another article which confirms Rich's original post. Directly below is a summary of this article. At the very bottom of this post is a re-print of Rich's original post in case you missed it. Myron Malone Greenville, TX --------- >From the September, 1997 issue of QST. (Publication of the American Radio Relay League, generally directed toward Amateur Radio Operators.) HOUSE BILL RILES SCANNER BUFFS by Steve Mansfield, N1MZA Many scanner enthusiasts are concerned about a seemingly 'technical' change in a bill recently introduced in the House of Representatives by Edward Markey (D-MA-7th). The bill is intended to create added privacy protection for consumers using the nation's communication networks. HR 1964, the "Communications Privacy and Consumer Empowerment Act", as currently written, would expand the current the ban of scanners ability to receive cellular frequencies. The ban would include scanners that receive Commercial Mobile Radio Service (CMRS) frequencies. This ban could cast a very wide net, and could even preclude the certification of VHF/UHF amateur equipment with the ability to scan outside of the amateur frequencies. The CMRS is a relative new "umbrella" designation of radio services that act like telephone services. Such services are offered on a subscriber basis to "a substantial portion" of the public and can be interconnected to regular telephone services. The services include commercial paging, air-to-ground services, cellular telephone, offshore radiotelephone, personal communication services and specialized mobile radio services. As a rule of thumb, any device that walks like a telephone and talks like a telephone is likely to be included in the definition of CMRS, regardless of the operating frequency. The bill includes "digital transmissions" on those frequencies. While the avowed purpose of the bill is to ensure the privacy of "telephone" conversations, the worst-case outcome of the bill could be to inhibit, if not completely block, the further sale of radio scanners. Designing a cost effective device that would selectively filter all of the proscribed frequencies could prove difficult for manufactures, and would certainly cut a wide swath through the frequencies scanner enthusiasts enjoy. Under HR 1964, scanners that receive any of the frequencies that might be used by the CMRS would no longer qualify for FCC certification to be sold in the US. The legislation has deeper roots than a mere desire for consumer privacy. Speaker of the house Gingrich was publicly embarrassed by the disclosure of the purported contents of a cellular conversation he had regarding strategy in his ethics case. Since virtually every member of Congress uses a cellular telephone, the issue was watched with great interest and no little discomfort. Commercial interests could also be a driving force behind the legislation. While the prognosis on this legislation is still unclear, recent indications are that it does not have much support. Despite the supposed lack of support, some form of "electronic privacy" legislation is also planned for introduction by Telecommunications Subcommittee Chairman Billy Tauzin (R-LA-3rd) -------- I am not one who usually writes my congressman, but on this issue he can expect many letters from me. I strongly recommend if you are concerned about your ability to use a scanner to listen to the railroads, that you become involved with this issue. It will take a groundswell of grass-roots involvement to swing the congressional and business interests to preserve our right to scan the radio spectrum. -Myron ---- Below is Rich's original post. >>>>> From: CalBodfish@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RS: How Much Will Your Scanner Be Worth?? For those Railspotters not on the CUNY RAILRAOD list, the following may be of interest to you. I have never written a congressman before, but I did today. First they fence off Cajon and move in some boy scouts in to kick you off the property, then they start gating Sherman Hill, now wants to take our ability to use scanners (aaahhhh, legally). Nobody is taking my HX-1000! Anyone, right your reps to urge them to volte this legislation down. If anyone want a copy of my letter as an example, please let me know. Hopefully Dick Armey isn't too busy trying some other way to knock off Newt! Here is a good site to get help in who and how to contact your Representative http://www.vote-smart.org/ Don't wait too long...... --------------------------------------- From: "T. R. Swisher" To: RAILROAD@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Received: from listserv.cuny.edu ([128.228.100.10]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA3242; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:08:35 +0000 Received: from listserv (128.228.100.10) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.0a) with SMTP id 46088420 ; 10 Aug 1997 18:07:32 -0400 Subject: Attn Scanner Users: Legislative Alert (HR 2369) Message-ID: <970810220835.3.940@mtigwc01> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 19:54:10 +0000 All; If you use a scanner to listen to railroads (or police, or fire, etc), this bill is big trouble. The way Section 3 is written now, it'll make listening to anything other than AM/FM/TV broadcast, ham radio, CB, and weather illegal. A literal interpretation of the law means that it would even be illegal for police, firefighters, volunteer fire/EMS personnel, etc to listen to neighboring agencies! Write your Congressperson now and express your opposition to this bill, before a useful tool is taken away from public safety, and yet another harmless pastime is taken away from you. Tom * Tom Swisher, WA8PYR | E-mail: * The Ohio Railway Museum | wa8pyr @ aol.com * "Save Our Roads.. Ship It By Rail" | tswisher @ freenet.columbus.oh.us * * WWW http://members.aol.com/orm578/page/ormhome.htm ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:13:05 -0400 From: Larry Van Horn To: scan-legal@nomad.n-reading.ma.us Subject: [TRUNKCOM] Legislative Alert: Tauzin Drops a Bomb Shell (HR 2369) Please give this information the widest possible dissemination on all hobby forums. The author of this message grants permission to repost or reprint the information below unconditionally. Here is the latest legislative threat to the monitoring hobby. Folks this bill is pure poison to all branches of the radio hobby. In particular. I'm extremely concerned with section 3 of this bill amending the Communications Act of 1934. Every radio listener and ham needs to contact their elected officials in Washington and voice opposition to this bill. Unlike the Markey bill, HR 2369 does have cosponsors and given the timing in the legislative calendar, I feel it does have an excellent chance of getting through Congress this session. This bill has the same provisions in it as the Markey bill (HR 1964) plus the new language on scanner mods in section 1 and the new very restrictive language for the Comm Act of 34 in section 3. This effects every radio listener from shortwave right on up to the microwave regions. If your hobby is listening to something other than broadcast radio or television, ham or CB this bill could and probably will effect you. Bottom line: I will be posting additional info and analysis after we talk to the legal folks. On the surface, this doesn't look good at all. We are going to have a major fight on our hands here. Best Regards, Larry Van Horn Assistant Editor/Managing Editor Monitoring Times/Satellite Times P.O. Box 98 Brasstown, NC 28902 <<<>>> HR 2369 IH 105th CONGRESS 1st Session To amend the Communications Act of 1934 to strengthen and clarify prohibitions on electronic eavesdropping, and for other purposes. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES July 31, 1997 Mr. TAUZIN (for himself, Mr. MARKEY, Mr. OXLEY, Mr. GILLMOR, Ms.ESHOO, and Ms. MCCARTHY of Missouri) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Commerce A BILL To amend the Communications Act of 1934 to strengthen and clarify prohibitions on electronic eavesdropping, and for other purposes. [Italic->] Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, [<-Italic] SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the `Wireless Privacy Enhancement Act of 1997'. SEC. 2. COMMERCE IN ELECTRONIC EAVESDROPPING DEVICES. (a) PROHIBITION ON MODIFICATION- Section 302(b) of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 302(b)) is amended by inserting before the period at the end thereof the following: `, or to modify any such device, equipment, or system in any manner that causes such device, equipment, or system to fail to comply with such regulations'. (b) PROHIBITION ON COMMERCE IN SCANNING RECEIVERS- Section 302(d) of such Act (47 U.S.C. 302(d)) is amended to read as follows: `(d) The Commission shall prescribe regulations denying equipment authorization (under part 15 of title 47, Code of Federal Regulations, or any other part of that title) for any scanning receiver that is capable of-- `(1) receiving transmissions in the frequencies allocated to any commercial mobile service (as defined in section 332(d), `(2) readily being altered to receive transmissions in such frequencies, `(3) being equipped with decoders that convert digital commercial mobile service transmissions to analog voice audio, or `(4) being equipped with devices that otherwise decode encrypted radio transmissions for the purposes of unauthorized interception.'. (c) IMPLEMENTING REGULATIONS- Within 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Federal Communications Commission shall prescribe amendments to its regulations for the purposes of implementing the amendments made by this section. In prescribing such amendments, and in response to subsequent changes in technology or behavior, the Commission shall review and revise its definition of the term `capable of readily being altered' as necessary to prevent commerce in devices that may be used unlawfully to intercept or divulge radio communication. SEC. 3. UNAUTHORIZED INTERCEPTION OR PUBLICATION OF COMMUNICATIONS. (a) AMENDMENTS- Section 705 of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 605) is amended-- (1) in the heading of such section, by inserting `interception or' after `unauthorized'; (2) in the second sentence of subsection (a), by striking `and divulge' and inserting `or divulge'; (3) in subsection (e)(1)-- (A) by striking `fined not more than $2,000 or'; and (B) by inserting `or fined under title 18, United States Code,' after `6 months,'; and (4) in subsection (e)(3), by striking `any violation' and inserting `any receipt, interception, divulgence, publication, or utilization of any communication in violation'; and (5) in subsection (e)(4), by striking `any other activity prohibited by subsection (a)' and inserting `any receipt, interception, divulgence, publication, or utilization of any communication in violation of subsection (a)'. (b) RESPONSIBILITY FOR ENFORCEMENT- Notwithstanding any other investigative or enforcement activities of any other Federal agency, the Federal Communications Commission shall investigate alleged violations of section 705 of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 605) and may proceed to initiate action under section 503 of such Act (47 U.S.C. 503) to impose forfeiture penalties with respect to such violation upon conclusion of the Commission's investigation. --------- End forwarded message ---------- Rich Wallace Flower Mound, TX Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:22:36 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: ICQ Content-Length: 637 Hello.... I there is anyone with ICQ and would like to chat sometime let me know. My ICQ number is 141533....(note)...I'm not promoting ICQ...its just that sometimes it would be nice to talk on a real time basis about somethings...also it would be good to use as a back-up.... If you don't have ICQ...PRR talk is still the way to go..... H.Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:31:52 -0400 From: mxb13@psu.edu (Mike Bezilla) Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce Content-Length: 1098 >Both are just off Route 22 in central Pennsylvania. Jack's Narrows is the >narrow gap between the mountains just west of Mount Union, and is home to >the railroad on the south, the Juniata River, and Route 22 to the north. >The tower location is at the west end of town and is very easy to find. I >had heard the tower was restored. I believe there are only two tracks >there now. There had been as many as five from some pictures I have seen. Only 4 main tracks as I recall, the 5th -- don't know what PRR designated it -- was probably the branch coming up from Mount Union. This was the original PRR r-o-w, btw. JACKS was leveled soon after it was closed. Perhaps you're thinking of HUNT, the next tower west, in downtown Huntingdon. Nicely restored, worthy of a visit and support by all PRR fans, they are open most Sat & Sunday afternoons. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:15:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Subject: PRR/SF Interchange Slprs Content-Length: 385 I know that the NYC had a couple of cars they interchanged with the SF that had silver trucks. Did the PRR have any? Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:13:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Da72jmk@aol.com Subject: Re: Jack's Narrows and Spruce Content-Length: 746 In a message dated 97-08-30 00:41:15 EDT, Bill.Laird@coastalcorp.com writes: << I am familiar with and have visited all the landmarks included in the plan except Jack's Narrows and Spruce, which are both refered to as photogenic trackage by mister Armstrong. My questions to the group are (1) where are Jack's Narrows and Spruce located, and (2) does anyone have any references to published pictures and descriptions of these two areas? >> See the book Along the Mainline for vintage pictures of these areas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!