From: tom@cfnh2.mv.com Date: 01 Jul 97 13:30:42 UT Subject: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 859 Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger equipment @$5 per at a flea market. (Great to live in B&M country and be interested in PRR and PRSL. ) Acquisitions are: Baggage, Mail-Baggage, Combine, Passenger, Day-Nite Passenger, Diner, Roomette and Observation. To my surprise and relief, the roofs and decking were painted. The metal sides have a five stripe scheme, that reminded me of the running commentary last week on passenger equipment. Only one kit was partially assembled. They look great in the box. Plan to run them behind my Rivarossi GG-1 at our club (Bedford, NH Boomers) shows. A friend told me they were a challenge in the pre-ACC days to assemble. Also advised paying attention to car weight. Anyone have any exoerience assembling these kits? Would appreciate any suggestions/advice. Thanks, Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 01 Jul 97 13:42:46 UT Subject: FWD: Re: Red Caboose X29 Content-Length: 909 The following inquiry was made by Tim O'Conner on the freight car list. I thought an answer might be found here. regards Andy Miller BTW I'm seriously interested since I painted an ECW PRR G26 in the shadow keystione scheme without ever considering that it might not have a prototype! - ------- The lettering sometimes remained "fresh" due to chalking of the white paint, while the background color shifted to maroon or black or brown or whatever ... Only a newly painted car would be the bright orange color. On a related PRR note: did any of the PRR G26 (65' mill gondolas) receive the shadow keystone lettering with the large PENNSYLVANIA name on the side? The color photos in the MS books show cars with the circle keystone only (and very, very dirty to boot). I want to paint mine circa 1960. Tim O'Connor BBN Systems & Technologies Cambridge, Massachusetts !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 01 Jul 97 13:59:22 UT Subject: RE: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 485 American Model Builders, or American Beauty? > ---------- > : AMB PRR Kits > > Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger equipment > @$5 per at a flea market. > To my surprise and relief, the roofs and decking were painted. The > metal > sides have a five stripe scheme, that reminded me of the running > commentary last week on passenger equipment. > Anyone have any exoerience assembling these kits? Would appreciate any > suggestions/advice. > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: kieth@redhorse.astra.co.uk Date: 01 Jul 97 14:30:27 UT Subject: S&NY R.R. Content-Length: 114 Does anyone have any pics or info on the S&NY R.R.? Anything you have will be greatly appreciated. Kieth !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: tom@cfnh2.mv.com Date: 01 Jul 97 14:45:41 UT Subject: Re: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 664 harmanta@monroe.army.mil wrote: > > American Model Builders, or American Beauty? > > > ---------- > > : AMB PRR Kits > > > > Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger equipment > > @$5 per at a flea market. > > To my surprise and relief, the roofs and decking were painted. The > > metal > > sides have a five stripe scheme, that reminded me of the running > > commentary last week on passenger equipment. > > Anyone have any exoerience assembling these kits? Would appreciate any > > suggestions/advice. > > Yes, American Beauty was on top of label. There is a Michigan Address with a zone(!) on it. Thanks, Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 14:53:57 UT Subject: 85' Content-Length: 135 I assembled three of these cars about 25 years ago, but do not remember any details, except that they take a thirity-six inch radius !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harmanta@monroe.army.mil Date: 01 Jul 97 15:01:14 UT Subject: RE: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 704 OK. American Beauty passenger cars, no longer in production, have graduated to the status of collectors items. They still look pretty good on a layout, and I think you got them for a good price. American Model Builders, on the other hand, is in St. Llouis and in current production and I am eagerly awaiting their PR releases. Their UP stuff is great. I never built an American Beauty kit, so all I can say is be careful and on't mess it up. Glad to be of help. Andrew h., with more words than models. > > American Model Builders, or American Beauty? > > > > : AMB PRR Kits > > > Acquired 8 American Model Builders kits of PRR 85' passenger > equipment @$5 per at a flea market. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 16:09:03 UT Subject: Re: S&NY R.R. Content-Length: 251 In a message dated 97-07-01 15:06:57 EDT, you write: << Does anyone have any pics or info on the S&NY R.R.? Anything you have will be greatly appreciated. >> There is a chapter on the S&NY in Caloroso's book about the Elmira branch. John !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: tom@cfnh2.mv.com Date: 01 Jul 97 16:36:25 UT Subject: Re: AMB PRR Kits Content-Length: 1916 asmiller@mail11.mitre.org wrote: > > I'm glad several others jumped in and saved me an early e-mail. Yes, what you described sounded like American Beauty Cars. > > They were the premier passenger car of their era (1955-60) and typical of their era for a model they were generic. The same bodies were painted for many railroads. Nothing on the PRR ever looked quite like them. > The "5-stripe" scheme is similarly a figment of AB's imagination. The Raymond Lowey scheme had a dark color window panel with rounded ends. The post war scheme had three stripes, one above the windows and two below. As I recall the AB cars had two stripes on the letterboard and three, evenly spaced from the belt rail down. > > Don't despair, they are definatly a collectors item and will still look good behind your GG-1; at least until you become a rivit (window?) counter and can spot a 10-6 from a P85b at a glance. > > I would suggest that you not mix them with any other smoothside streamlined PRR cars since the paint scheme is "unique". However an IHC RPO car at the front would add some class. > > I also recall that they came with foam-rubber, full-width diaphragms which severely limited the turns they could take. If built without the diaphragms (and they may have crumbled to dust long ago) there is no end detail. You might consider putting set of American Limited standard width diphragms on them. > > With mixed sleepers and coaches you could think of the set as any PRR Blue Ribbon train of the post war era except the Broadway Ltd. > > regards > Andy Miller Andy, Thank you for your comments. The diaphram material is in very good condition. Was not going to use them anyway.Your suggestions convinces me that the "newer" type will be easier to use. Will try not to screw them up. The other comments so far are very helpful, and I'll let you know how they turn out. Tom Mahon !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 01 Jul 97 16:58:03 UT Subject: Announcing the "Conrail-Talk" Mailing List Content-Length: 1253 With the blessing of the Conrail Technical Society, I am pleased to announce a mailing list dedicated to Conrail -- addressing both prototype and modeling concerns. The list is called "Conrail-Talk" and you can subscribe by sending an e-mail to "listserv@dsop.com" with the message "sub conrail-talk your_name". (You should substitute 'your_name' with your real name. This is for administrative purposes only and is not distributed.) Complete listserv commands are available via "http://conrail.dsop.com". REMINDER: This site also serves "PRR-Talk", a mailing list dedicated to the Pennsy. You can subscribe by sending an e-mail to "listserv@dsop.com" with the message "sub prr-talk your_name". (You should substitute 'your_name' with your real name. This is for administrative purposes only and is not distributed.) Complete listserv commands are available via "http://prr.dsop.com". I also spin the pages of "Keystone Crossings", a web site dedicated to the Pennsy. Please visit at "http://prr.dsop.com". Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 17:29:59 UT Subject: MicroScale Decals for PRR Content-Length: 2787 FYI: The following decals are available from MicroScale: Roadname Description Period HO N O PRR Steam Locos 20-50 48-35 PRR Diesel Cabs & Elec 50-60 48-42 PRR Diesel Cabs 50 48-45 PRR Diesel Alco PA&PB 60-70 48-90 PRR Diesel PA or PB 60-70 48-93 PRR GG-1 50-60s 48-179 PRR Diesel E's & PA's - 48-180 PRR Diesel GP-9 50-68 48-194 PRR Diesel E Units 53-68 48-354 PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 48-459 PRR Passenger Cars T Red 47-68 48-460 PRR Box Cars 47-57 48-554 PRR Pass. Cars, Cal Ze 50-70 87-108 60-108 PRR Diesel Hoods 60-70 87-21 60-21 PRR Box Car 40' Sngl Dr 60 87-38 60-38 PRR Diesel Cabs & Elec. 50-60 87-39 60-39 PRR Steam Locos - 87-66 60-66 PRR Diesel Cabs & Elec. 60-70 87-67 60-67 PRR Locos 5 Stp. Gold 39-52 87-677 60-677 PRR Diesel E Units 53-68 87-810 60-810 PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-891 60-891 PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-892 60-892 PRR Passenger Cars 49-68 87-893 60-893 PRR Passenger Cars 45-68 87-894 60-894 PRR Box Cars Merch.Serv. 47-57 87-972 60-972 Pullman Std Passenger Cars 20-50 87-371 60-371 Pullman Std Passenger Cars H. Wt. 20-50 87-384 60-384 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 01 Jul 97 17:50:47 UT Subject: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 184 Will be in Altoona on Saturday, July 5. Would someone be so kind as to give me directions on how to get to the Curve. Will be arriving in Altoona on US 22 from Pittsburg. Harold !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 01 Jul 97 21:08:27 UT Subject: Re: S&NY R.R. Content-Length: 411 > Does anyone have any pics or info on the S&NY R.R.? Anything you > have will be greatly appreciated. > Kieth > You might try to find the book Story of the Susquehanna & New York by Edward L. Kaseman, 1979 (third edition printed 1990) -- 88 pages plus supplement. Kaseman's address, as listed in the book, is 1315 Grampian Blvd., Williamsport, PA 17701 Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 02 Jul 97 09:21:25 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 4084 > Will be in Altoona on Saturday, July 5. Would someone be so kind as to give > me directions on how to get to the Curve. Will be arriving in Altoona on US > 22 from Pittsburg. I recommend: Get off US 22 where the new bypass starts, at the far (east) side of Ebensburg. I believe it's the "Ebensburg Loretto" exit. Head east, that is, don't turn back toward downtown Ebensburg. You're on old US 22. In about 6 miles (I think) you'll come to Cresson. There will be a McDonalds just before an underpass which goes under the mainline. Make a left just before crossing under the mainline. You can park and take a gander and/or wander down to your right to get a better look. I have never been bothered by Conrail police here; YMMV. Continue in same direction (north) crossing over the wye and heading under the no-longer-connected flyover into "Sangertown" (from memory). Make a right. You will go back under the main line and be forced to make a right. You'll now be on the other side of the mainline. There's a small lot and a raised platform put in so you can get good pictures and watch trains, the first stage of a project they're doing in Cresson. You're now pointed south, toward old US 22. Continue in that direction until you come to a cross-street, and make a left. Go one block to PA 53 and make a left again. Several (3 or 4) miles north is a flying right turn to "Gallitzin", well marked. Take it. Before you get that far is a bridge on PA 53 over the mainline which you may wish to stop at for pix. Going up into Gallitzin the road forks; Take the right fork. At some point (I forget street names) you'll have to make a right and then a left quickly but you'll be roughly paralleling the mainline. Eventually you come to Jackson Street, make a right and find a place to park, probably near the caboose! Some nice shots can be had here; If you're looking for westbounds you can by sitting on the concrete rail between the sidewalk and street and ducking down see light at the east end of the tunnels. When you're done head across the bridge to your south. Make either of the first two rights, then a left a block later. You'll go straight til you cross over the New Portage branch, then go left. They cut back the foliage here so you can see the portal of the tunnel without wandering back into the underbrush now; Parking is somewhat a pain though, esp. on a holiday weekend. Continue on this road to the top of the hill. When you get to the top, make a left. This will be "Tunnelhill Avenue" as I recall. (Aside: I know of no legal way to get the east portals. If you want to take your chances with Conrail police, which I can't recommend, you can, at the top of the hill, make a right, then a left onto Sugar Run Road, and look for the trail on your left marked "no tresspassing" where the New Portage branch crossed Sugar Run Road before heading down to Hollidaysburg before new US 22 severed the ROW). Head north about 2 or 3 miles. You'll be making a right, it will be the first real road on your right, there's a sign telling you it's to Horseshoe Curve, and right after you turn onto it you'll see a sign designating it the "Blair County Veterans Memorial Highway". Ignore the fact that you're still in Cambria County at that point;-) Go down the hill. It's probably too grown in now that summer is here but if you look there are old beehive ovens on your left near the bottom. After crossing under the mainline the curve will be on your left. You can repeat these steps backwards, or continue toward Altoona when you're done. You'll have to make one left turn to head into downtown Altoona; I believe you can do it at "Belmont" but there are others that will work. Plenty of bridges over the mainline near the Altoona Transportation Center, also one north of that area, in an area apparently known as Juniata. Lots of photo-ops, if the light's right. Perhaps one of our Altoona-area list members can also give you ideas; I'm sure theirs are much better than mine. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 02 Jul 97 11:37:44 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2856 Greetings to Harold and the group, To get directly to Horseshoe Curve from US Rt 22 from Pittsburgh, I would take 22 the whole way to its junction with PA 764. Take PA 764 and head towards Altoona. Be careful at this interchange. The junctions of US Rt 22, US RT 220 and PA 764 all occur here within a mile. Watch the signs carefully. I believe the first sign reads something like "Altoona Duncansville via Rt 764" then "Altoona via 764" puts you on the right road. Again you really need to pay attention to the signs. Once on 764 and heading towards Altoona, you will come to your first red light. Do not turn, stay on 764. You will pass a UPS terminal on your right and then quickly go under a railroad bridge. (This is the line to WYE, which then split to the line to Muleshoe Curve and SF and the line to Hollidaysburg and eventually to Petersburg.) An Altoona sewer plant will then be on your right and a Carter Lumber store on your left. You will then come to your second red light. Do not turn. This is where Surgar Run Road intersects 764. Surgar Run Road can take you to Tunnel Hill. After passing through the intersection of Surgar Run Road and 764, you will pass a Gulf Oil terminal and a Honda Car Dealer on your left. A bit after that will be a Riverside Grocery store on your right. At the next red light get in the center lane. You are going to make a left hand turn. This is 58th street. The 58th Street Bakery will be on your right and a audio/video store on your left. Turn left onto 58th Street. By the way. it's about 3 to 4 miles from the 764 interchange to 58th street. You will immediatly go over a railroad track. This is the line you went under a bit earlier. Continue on 58th street. You will come to a stop sign. This intersection is not quite at 90 degrees. You want to proceed straight accross the intersection and continue on 58th Street. BE CAREFUL at this intersection. There is a blind hill on your left. The posted speed limit is 25 MPH but few obey it. Look to the right then left then go like hell to get accross the intersection! Stay on 58th Street. You will pass Hillside and Polland Avenues on your left. (By the way, you will be less than a mile from my home at this point.) Then an 'S' curve comes up and you then pass Valley Ave on your left also. You will go over an orange painted metal grated bridge that 'sings'. A bit later you are at a 'T' intersection. This is the road to Horseshoe Curve also known as 40th Street. Make a left, the Curve is about 3 miles. Enjoy your visit to the CUrve. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 05:50 PM 7/1/97 UT, you wrote: >Will be in Altoona on Saturday, July 5. Would someone be so kind as to give >me directions on how to get to the Curve. Will be arriving in Altoona on US >22 from Pittsburg. > >Harold > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu Date: 02 Jul 97 13:53:08 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 447 I am headed home to the Pittsburgh area on vacation in a couple of weeks and was thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been there in years. I'd also like see whatever remains of the Altoona shops. Are they difficult to find? Is there anything else in Altoona that would be of interest on a day trip? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 02 Jul 97 14:05:52 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 1368 From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu > I am headed home to the Pittsburgh area on vacation in a couple of weeks and was > thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been there in years. I'd also like > see whatever remains of the Altoona shops. Are they difficult to find? Is > there anything else in Altoona that would be of interest on a day trip? I made my first (and only) visit to The Curve about a year and a half ago. No doubt, it is a sight to see, and a place worth spending some time. Visitors Center is pretty decent too. In Altoona, there's the Railroader's Memorial Museum. It was somewhat in disarray at the time, as they were preparing to move into a new building. May be worth a visit. However, I recommend Cresson. When I visited The Curve, I didn't realize how close it was...about 10 miles. I visited Cresson about a year ago. At Cresson is a full, four-track interlocking, with two branch line junctions. There used to be a flyover, but it has been removed. Also at Cresson are the diesel helper facilities. You can watch trains pass and helpers cutting off. Also worth a few hours. Question is, how much time do you have? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 02 Jul 97 15:24:07 UT Subject: Re: a PRR logo?? Content-Length: 737 In a message dated 97-06-30 21:00:37 EDT, TVondruska@aol.com writes: << Jerry's quip "Somewhere West" may not be appropos. I just ran through my complete (until I learn of still another pioneer line) Lines West Geneology (now on HTML) and found no listing for any road with initials consisting only of S and W, at least none that I've found yet. A Lines West page is not dead. AOL now offers 10 megs of space. That's enough for my purposes. The Lines West geneology is now 33 pages long. How can I make it searchable? >> This may not be a PRR patch at all. It may be the Southwesern Pennsylvania RR -- a shortline which is operating former PRR branch lines south and southwest of Youngwood. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 02 Jul 97 15:35:44 UT Subject: Re: a PRR logo?? Content-Length: 368 >This may not be a PRR patch at all. It may be the Southwesern Pennsylvania >RR -- a shortline which is operating former PRR branch lines south and >southwest of Youngwood. > >Rich Orr > > - ----- This may not be a RAILROAD patcth at all! The PRR had no copyright or trademark on the keystone, only on their unique usage of it. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dennis@bbn.com Date: 02 Jul 97 16:25:31 UT Subject: Re: MicroScale Decals for PRR Content-Length: 1700 On 1 Jul, Eichhorn@aol.com wrote: > Roadname Description Period HO N > PRR Box Car 40' Sngl Dr 60 87-38 60-38 Does anybody know what car data is included? (X29, etc) I would assume from the period that it's the Shadow Keystone paint scheme. > PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-891 60-891 > PRR Passenger Cars 47-68 87-892 60-892 > PRR Passenger Cars 49-68 87-893 60-893 > PRR Passenger Cars 45-68 87-894 60-894 One of these is a sheet full of lightweight car names, and another is heavyweight names, and I think the other two are striping. I've been using them to rename my N Scale Rivarossi 10-6s (from Huron Rapids) and the Tower View (from Mountain View). My only gripe is that there aren't enough instances of RAPIDS, and they don't match the factory lettering (the decals are better), so you can't just replace the HURON with, for instance, CATAWISSA. (Andy, be quiet!) > PRR Box Cars Merch.Serv. 47-57 87-972 60-972 I have several of these sets. Be careful before you buy -- half of the sets I bought had misregistrations bad enough to make the MS-1 version (aluminum stripe, red letters) unusable. My local shop would have taken them back, but just refunded my money and let me keep them when I said I could still use everything on the sheet except the MS-1 stripe. Microscale could have easily provided car data for the 50' cars, but didn't; there's enough striping to fit. Dennis !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 02 Jul 97 17:13:07 UT Subject: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 954 Greetings all, I guess I'm re-igniting Jerry's K-4 thread of a couple of weeks ago. I just got back from an auction where everyone was looking at the RC model airplane, boat and car kits and kinda ignored an interesting selection of 1950s-era HO kits. For less than a third of the price that one of these now commands I came home with three complete but unbuilt HO steam loco kits, a PennLine E6 4-4-2 Atlantic, a Bowser 4-8-0 H9 Atlantic and a Bowser 2-10-0 I-1 Decapod (all with tender). My questions. I have a MDC E-6 Atlantic needing a motor and a complete MDC H-9 kit. What do I need to do if I want to double head these with the PennLine/Bowser loco of the same class? Would a Decapod tender have a trainphone aerial? Is there any source of correct road numbers for any of these units on the Columbus, Cincinnati or Panhandle subdivisions? And just what was the color of the cab roofs and tender decks? Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 02 Jul 97 17:14:47 UT Subject: Re: MicroScale Decals for PRR Content-Length: 679 I've been using them to rename my N Scale >Rivarossi 10-6s (from Huron Rapids) and the Tower View (from >Mountain View). My only gripe is that there aren't enough >instances of RAPIDS, and they don't match the factory >lettering (the decals are better), so you can't just replace >the HURON with, for instance, CATAWISSA. (Andy, be quiet!) > >Dennis > - ----- The IHC/AHM/Rivarossi PRR lettering is notoriously wrong. Don't try to match it. And I won't say a thing about HURON RAPIDS being an ACF car while CATAWISSA RAPIDS was a PS car. I have numerous AHM 10-6s lettered for PS cars myself - don't tell anyone- please. regards, The mystery responder. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 02 Jul 97 19:40:35 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 3010 was thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been > there in years. I'd also like see whatever remains of the Altoona > shops. Are they difficult to find? Is there anything else in > Altoona that would be of interest on a day trip? Don, there have been a couple of posts here in the last day regarding directions to the Curve that give some hints. The shops are not hard to find, but locomotives are often parked way back in, or between buildings, so photo opportunities are limited. As far as a list of place to see or watch the action is concerned, I'd suggest: 1. Cresson-Gallitzin-Horseshoe Curve Vicinity - The park at the west portals of Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels, downtown Gallitzin. - Mainline trackside vantage point in Cresson, near the railroad bed-n-breakfast and across the tracks from the helper-locomotive servicing area. - Allegheny Portage Railroad National Historic Site, Cresson (actually, on top of the mountain and south of town, not in Cresson itself). - And of course, Horseshoe Curve; if you drive down the mountain from Gallitzin to the Curve on the "veterans memorial" road, watch along the way for the ruins of the village of Glen White with its coke ovens, and the right of way of the private railroad that connected with the PRR main at the Curve. 2. Duncansville-Hollidaysburg - Muleshoe Curve on old US 22. - wye where original PRR main line (1850) met the Allegheny Portage Railroad. - former Samuel Rea freight-car shops, Hollidaysburg. 3. Altoona area >From west to east: - Brickyard crossing, good place to watch trains, particularly westbounds, which are pulling hard by this point in the grade. (Maybe Drew can give specific directions there, I usually find my way to it by turning off Broad Avenue on one of several cross-streets.) -24th Street bridge over the main line; this has chicken wire on one side so photo opportunities are limited, but still a good location. - 17th Street bridge; you're right above Alto Tower and the branch to Hollidaysburg at this point. - 12th Street foot bridge over tracks is a good vantage point to look east and west along the main line and also see the passegner station. This is adjacent to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, which is in the early stages of occupying the former PRR Master Mechanics Building; from the foot bridge you can also see part of the former Altoona Machine Shops complex, now used by Altoona Pipe & Steel as a contract freight-car repair site. - Fourth Street foot bridge. - The shops that remain stretch eastward along Chestnut Avenue between downtown Altoona and the Juniata section of the city. At Juniata you can drive around the back side of the Erecting & Machine Shop and look through the fence (not chicken-wire) at the turntable and the engines parked outside. - Eighth Street bridge, Juniata. - Pinecroft, local road bridge over the main line. Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: lpmorgan@iquest.net Date: 02 Jul 97 21:32:35 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 3214 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D19BB5703B411FB98ED7603A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu > > > I am headed home to the Pittsburgh area on vacation in a couple of > weeks > and was > > thinking about visiting the Curve. Have not been there in years. > I'd > also like > > see whatever remains of the Altoona shops. Are they difficult to > find? > Is > > there anything else in Altoona that would be of interest on a day > trip? > > I made my first (and only) visit to The Curve about a year and a half > ago. > No doubt, it is a sight to see, and a place worth spending some time. > Visitors Center is pretty decent too. > > In Altoona, there's the Railroader's Memorial Museum. It was somewhat > in > disarray at the time, as they were preparing to move into a new > building. > May be worth a visit. > > However, I recommend Cresson. When I visited The Curve, I didn't > realize how > close it was...about 10 miles. I visited Cresson about a year ago. At > Cresson is a full, four-track interlocking, with two branch line > junctions. > There used to be a flyover, but it has been removed. Also at Cresson > are the > diesel helper facilities. You can watch trains pass and helpers > cutting off. > Also worth a few hours. > > Question is, how much time do you have? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com I was in the area about 3 years ago on my way to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum in Strasbourg. My wife and I caught a passenger train from Johnstown (sp?) to Altoona, and on through to Huntingdon. We caught a return train as well. The station at Johnstown had a good "fresco" showing the route through the mountains, and is a neat structure in itself. We saw a lot of great action on the Johnstown - Altoona portion both ways. The train museum WAS near the Altoona station (not sure if it has moved. I wish we had just gotten off at Altoona, but we would have missed the rail side view of the Altoona Shops. Riding the passenger train gave us a different view. Seeing a working Burro crane on a nearby track was neat. Much of the action was at Cresson. The Allegheny Tunnel is fairly close to Horseshoe Curve as well and worth a couple of hours. We did well in one way. We rode the "Broadway Limited" in its last week. It was our first travel by commercial train. -- Larry Morgan lpmorgan@iquest.net Greenfield, IN (near Indianapolis) TCA/TTOS --------------D19BB5703B411FB98ED7603A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Larry P. Morgan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Larry P. Morgan n: ;Larry P. Morgan email;internet: lpmorgan@iquest.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------D19BB5703B411FB98ED7603A-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 03 Jul 97 01:30:10 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve, part 2 Content-Length: 1661 In further response to Don Harper's request on Horseshoe Curve info, this part of my message somehow bounced back, so I'm reposting it. > - Brickyard crossing, good place to watch trains, particularly > westbounds, which are pulling hard by this point in the grade. > (Maybe Drew McG. can give specific directions there, I usually find my > way to it by turning off Broad Avenue on one of several > cross-streets.) > > -24th Street bridge over the main line; this has chicken wire on one > side so photo opportunities are limited, but still a good location. > > - 17th Street bridge; you're right above Alto Tower and the branch > to Hollidaysburg at this point. > > - 12th Street foot bridge over tracks is a good vantage point to > look east and west along the main line and also see the passegner > station. > This is adjacent to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, which > is > in the early stages of occupying the former PRR Master Mechanics > Building; from the foot bridge you can also see part of the former > Altoona Machine Shops complex, now used by Altoona Pipe & Steel as a > contract freight-car repair site. > > - Fourth Street foot bridge. > > - The shops that remain stretch eastward along Chestnut Avenue > between downtown Altoona and the Juniata section of the city. At > Juniata you can drive around the back side of the Erecting & Machine > Shop and look through the fence (not chicken-wire) at the turntable > and the engines parked outside. > > - Eighth Street bridge, Juniata. > > - Pinecroft, local road bridge over the main line. > > > Dan Cupper > > Romans 10:9 > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 03 Jul 97 09:01:53 UT Subject: Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 394 > - Muleshoe Curve on old US 22. Last time I checked you could drive up a small hill to the west of the bridge and to the south of route 22, and drive out on the bridge. The gate on the far side was closed, so I got no further, but then I drove the other way out the former New Portage line all the way to (I think it was) 764, the first place where they had removed a bridge. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 03 Jul 97 09:46:48 UT Subject: RE: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 3246 Tom, Of the three locos only the I1 would have definately had a trainfone. The E6s, to the best of my knowledge, never had them; and only some of the H9s, but not all, had them. I suspect those in branchline service were never equipped; while those that trod the main carried the antennae - but that's just a guess. BTW I presume it was eary in the morning, before your first cup of coffe when you wrote your e-mail. Of course you know that the H9s were 2-8-0s not 4-8-0s and that 2-8-0s were Consolidations not Atlantics. About double heading, I have no expererience with the MDC locos so I can't give a real answer; but thats never stopped me from giving an uninformed opinion before ;-) I have run mixed locos of other type with mixed success. I suspect that the Bowser/PL is so heavy that it will dominate the pair and that as long as you put the faster engine in the front you will have no trouble. However, that said, it seems to me from fotos and previous sightings of MDCs locos, that they are generic with minor road modifications (e.g. raised headlite fopr the PRR). When placed next to your Bowser/PL E6 the differences will be very apparent. Besides which, I don't know of a case where the PRR ever double headed these engines. They could have used a single K4. Now for the bad/good news. I don't believe there ever was a prototype for the Bowser/PL "low side" tender; certainly knot on the E6's. Maybe on the H9 its close. However the MDC PRR tender is correct! Since your MDC needs a new motor, and the MDC boiler is wrong, and the Bowser tender is wrong, and you don't need 2 E6s, I see a plan forming. I might point out that I replaced the tender on my B/PL E6 with an MDC tender years ago. If you do, don't forget to put a back wall on the loco cab. Its absence from the B/PL boiler casting will be very apparent when the very low 6000 gal MDC tender is in tow. Now for the last item. I hope you get a more definitive answer to the "red roof" issue than I did! I'll be lurking and listening. BTW shows and auctions such as you found are great places to find used B/PL engines. I have acquired 2 K4s, and E6, and an L1 at such places. Toy train players give up on them too easily :-)) regards Andy Miller >Greetings all, > >I guess I'm re-igniting Jerry's K-4 thread of a couple of weeks ago. I just >got back from an auction where everyone was looking at the RC model airplane, >boat and car kits and kinda ignored an interesting selection of 1950s-era HO >kits. For less than a third of the price that one of these now commands I >came home with three complete but unbuilt HO steam loco kits, a PennLine E6 >4-4-2 Atlantic, a Bowser 4-8-0 H9 Atlantic and a Bowser 2-10-0 I-1 Decapod >(all with tender). > >My questions. > >I have a MDC E-6 Atlantic needing a motor and a complete MDC H-9 kit. What do >I need to do if I want to double head these with the PennLine/Bowser loco of >the same class? > >Would a Decapod tender have a trainphone aerial? > >Is there any source of correct road numbers for any of these units on the >Columbus, Cincinnati or Panhandle subdivisions? > >And just what was the color of the cab roofs and tender decks? > >Tom V. > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 03 Jul 97 11:27:27 UT Subject: Getting to the Brickyard was Re: Horseshoe Curve Content-Length: 2131 Greetings to Harold, Dan and the group, Harold, once you get to the Curve, pick up a "Path of Progress" pamphlet. You will notice "Path of Progress" signs around the Altoona area. This "Path of Progress" project promotes the area's industrial heritage. You can use these signs to locate the museum and the shops in Altoona. Just follow the signs when you leave the Curve and head toward Altoona. To get to the Brick Yard crossing (Coburn area), follow the "Path of Progress" signs from the Curve to Altoona. About 3 miles from the Curve, you will pass the Alegro Restaurant on your left. You will be on 40th street. You will make a left turn on to Beale Avenue. Again the "Path of Progreee" signs should be directing you this way. Stay on Beale Avenue till you come to a 'T' intersection with a red light. This is Logan Blvd. Turn left on to Logan Blvd. It will turn back in to Beale Ave. Make sure you get in the left lane. You will be making a left turn at the first red light. At this point, you will be leaving the "Path of Progress". This is 31st street. Once you make this turn, you will come to another red light right away. This is Broad Ave. Go straight through the intersection to stay on 31st street. You want to take the last left to get over the creek (Mill Run) prior to going through the RR underpass. It's about 5 or 6 blocks. Not every street has a bridge over the creek. I believe it will be either Pine or 10th ave. Just make sure it's the last one prior to the underpass. Follow the street untill you have to turn or bear right. This road will then take you to the brick yard. It's not very far. If you get lost, ask how to get to the brick yard or the Coburn RR Crossing. Hope this was helpful. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA > >3. Altoona area > >>From west to east: > >- Brickyard crossing, good place to watch trains, particularly >westbounds, which are pulling hard by this point in the grade. (Maybe >Drew can give specific directions there, I usually find my way to it >by turning off Broad Avenue on one of several cross-streets.) > > >Dan Cupper !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 03 Jul 97 15:09:48 UT Subject: Strasburg on Sunday...anyone? Content-Length: 386 Weather permitting, I'll probably trek to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg on Sunday. Anyone game? (Reply to the list or to "jerry@dsop.com" cause I'll be outta here real soon!) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 04 Jul 97 09:50:03 UT Subject: Past "PRR-Talk" And "Conrail-Talk" Posts Are Now Retrievable Content-Length: 827 Past posts to "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" are available for searching/retrieval. Access to my AppleSearch Server is available via the "PRR-Talk" and "Conrail-Talk" instruction pages ("http://prr.dsop.com/prrtalk.html" and "http://conrail.dsop.com/conrailtalk.html" respectively). Indexes are updated nightly at 11 p.m. (NOTE: The "PRR-Talk" archive is incomplete from inception through May 31, 1997. I am working on this.) FYI: Backups run at 2 a.m. daily. Full backups on Monday mornings will take several hours; other nights just a few minutes. This will affect performance for you night owls! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 04 Jul 97 11:15:34 UT Subject: Re: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 1214 In a message dated 97-07-03 13:43:32 EDT, asmiller@mail11.mitre.org writes: << PRR). When placed next to your Bowser/PL E6 the differences will be very apparent. Besides which, I don't know of a case where the PRR ever double headed these engines. They could have used a single K4. Now for the bad/good news. I don't believe there ever was a prototype for the Bowser/PL "low side" tender; certainly knot on the E6's. Maybe on the H9 its close. However the MDC PRR tender is correct! Since your MDC needs a new motor, and the MDC boiler is wrong, and the Bowser tender is wrong, and you don't need 2 E6s, I see a plan forming. I might point out that I replaced the tender on my B/PL E6 with an MDC tender years ago. If you do, don't forget to put a back wall on the loco cab. Its absence from the B/PL boiler casting will be very apparent when the very low 6000 gal MDC tender is in tow. >> Since the early (pre 1995) Bowser and all Penn Line boilers are incorrect for the PRR , mixing the Penn Line locomotive with the MDC tender will still let you with a correct tender and an incorrect locomotive. Replacement boilers in the correct shape are available from bowser. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: nhlives@bestweb.net Date: 04 Jul 97 11:33:21 UT Subject: Re: (Fwd) Mother of All RR Lists Content-Length: 422 anybody got the info handy to get on the conrail press release list? With the upcoming merger it ought to be interesting in its last few months. Danbury Railway Museum: http://www.danbury.org/org/drm New Haven RS-1 #0673 up and running at Danbury Railway Museum. Danbury Railway Museum P O Box 90 Danbury CT 06813-0090 (The views/opinions expressed above do not reflect those of Danbury Railway Museum) !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 04 Jul 97 13:05:19 UT Subject: Conrail News Link Service Content-Length: 942 > From: nhlives@bestweb.net > Date: 04 Jul 97 11:33:21 UT > Subject: Re: (Fwd) Mother of All RR Lists > anybody got the info handy to get on the conrail press release list? > From the Conrail Web site www.conrail.com Conrail News Link The Conrail News Link service gives you the abililty to receive all Conrail press releases in electronic mail format as they are issued. To subscribe to the Conrail News Link, send a message to conrail-lists@jupiter.webcommerce.com with the words "subscribe conrailnewslink" in the body of the message. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://ecicnet.org/~rhensley/cidwelco.html ===================== === Homepage of the Central Indiana Division, Midwest Region NMRA == !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 05 Jul 97 00:30:42 UT Subject: Re: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 1379 In a message dated 97-07-03 21:01:06 EDT, you write: << Of course you know that the H9s were 2-8-0s not 4-8-0s and that 2-8-0s were Consolidations not Atlantics. >> Andy, I'm sentenced to third shift. When I posted that message it was about 10 p.m. and I had been up for 24 hours that included one 8-hour shift, five hours at an outdoor auction with heat and humidity in the 90s and three hours undere severe thunderstorm and tornado warnings with my wife, two sons (9 & 11) and two nephews (7 & 13). I feel very fortunate that you could comprehend anything at all. (It was Wednesday in southwest Ohio. We didn't get hit as bad as Michigan but this morning Fri. 7/4/97, 5,000 were still without power in the Dayton-Springfield area. Thankfully, every seemed to miss Yellow Springs.) I've already decided that only the Decapod with the incorrect tender will get the trainfone. I'll model one H-9 as a Pennsy in service on the Springfield branch and update the other to an H-10 (power reverse and different running boards, if I remember right) sold to the DT&I, I believe and will put it in service on the DT&I main on my South Charleston Module which will include the DT&I main crossing the Panhandle Columbus Division main. I doubt that any Atlantic had the trainphone as they would have been in very limited service during the 1940s. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hosam@gc.net Date: 06 Jul 97 12:30:26 UT Subject: FM C-Liners Content-Length: 174 Greetings, Looking thru the Yanosey books on the PRR for FM C-Liners all I found were in the "Brunswick" green. Were none of these painted in the "Tuscan" red?? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 06 Jul 97 14:39:01 UT Subject: Re: FM C-Liners Content-Length: 661 > Looking thru the Yanosey books on the PRR for FM C-Liners all I > found > were in the "Brunswick" green. Were none of these painted in the > "Tuscan" red?? > Nope, not a one of them. Just a year ago Withers Publishing released the book "C-Liners" which details the fleets operated by all roads that bought C-Liners. All photos, black & white and color, show the only scheme the units wore -- dark green locomotive shade, relieved by a single gold stripe down each side, gold lettering, and red keystones on each side and on the nose of A-units. So all of those tuscan AHM models are inaccurate. Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 06 Jul 97 20:39:57 UT Subject: Re: FM C-Liners Content-Length: 475 In a message dated 97-07-06 12:42:54 EDT, you write: << Looking thru the Yanosey books on the PRR for FM C-Liners all I found were in the "Brunswick" green. Were none of these painted in the "Tuscan" red?? >> None of the FM C-liners B-B trucks were ever painted tuscan. Likewise, the similar Erie Built A-1-A A-1-A truck versions were all darl locomotive enamel. None were ever tuscan. PRR considered these freight locos not passenger. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jul 97 06:57:29 UT Subject: Review: "Philadelphia Terminal Division" Content-Length: 2034 I just had the opportunity to view Digital Image Works' video on the "Philadelphia Terminal Division", which they released in 1996. The video jacket reads: "An historic look at the Pennsy's tremendous physical plant in the Philadelphia area. Ride MP-54s down the Westchester and the Media lines. Circus trains departing the Cardington branch and running across the highline. Busy scenes of the 30th street coach yards, upper level suburban commuter operations, electrified and diesel power freights moving on the highline. Views of the experimental G.E. and Westinghouse electrics pulling tonnage alongside GG-1 powered Clockers and Limiteds. Traffic moving through Zoo interlocking. North Philadelphia, Frankford Jct., Darby and detours over the B&O. Color maps, graphics and narration. Approximately 35 Minutes, color, B&W, graphics, narration, prototype sound." I've seen a lot of "hacks" at splicing together old 8mm footage, but these people have done a fine job. Splices are smooth and the shots are of decent quality. A continuous soundtrack (with narration) keeps it smooth -- whereas some old footage had sound added, and was then spliced togther. The use of maps is very informative to the non-Philadelphian like myself. Suddenly, many of the past "PRR-Talk" posts make sense! As a young'n, I couldn't imagine Philadelphia without the Skylkill (sp.) Expressway -- but there it was...30th Street Station and its coach yard, but no highway between it and the river! This video is a "must have" for anyone planning to model the Terminal Division or any of the "minor branches" that spread out from Philly. (Dave Wartel, are you listening?) Digital Image Works has a Web site at http://www.diwks.com . I have several of their other videos which will be forthcoming. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 07 Jul 97 08:20:38 UT Subject: Re: PennLine/Bowser kits Content-Length: 994 Rich Orr said: >Since the early (pre 1995) Bowser and all Penn Line boilers are incorrect for >the PRR , mixing the Penn Line locomotive with the MDC tender will still let >you with a correct tender and an incorrect locomotive. Replacement boilers >in the correct shape are available from bowser. > >Rich Orr > Rich, I was unaware of any inaccuracies in the original PL boilers, except of course, that they cast the K4's sand dome in place on the boiler and then used the same casting on the L1. They did this because the PRR used the same boiler on the L1 as on the K4. But the Pennsy never cast the sand dome on! As a result the sand dome and bell on the original P/L L1 need to be swapped. I believe later Bowser kits have the sand dome as a separate casting; allowing the builder to mount them in the correct position for each of the locos. What other inaccuracies appear? I have two K4s and 2 L1s in regular service and you have me worried! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 08:25:51 UT Subject: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 891 Went to Strasburg yesterday, to the RMOP. It was "Reading Days" (yawn) this weekend. The newly restored BP20 looks great! Took a few pics of the K4 to assist me in building my Bowser. Work on restoring the Russell Snow Plow has slowed. Apparently they rebuilt the cabin and, when mounting it, discovered more rotten wood in the underframe. They had to remove the new cabin and set it aside to rebuild the entire car from scratch. It's hardly recognizable. "J" Tower looked great for the 4th, as they draped red, white, and blue banners from her. My pulse jumped momentarily in the bookstore when I saw a whole shelf full of Pullman-Standard volumes. Alas, no Volume 4's to be found! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 08:33:03 UT Subject: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 1196 Failed to mention this in my post about the RMOP. We have discussed at some length on this list, without conclusion, the practice of painting the roofs of steam locomotives and the tender decks red. Just for kicks, I went up on the overhead walkway at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and looked down on the collection. Nearly all of the specimens had red roofs and decks! Were these units restored to their original paint, or was it the preference of the paint shop to go red with everything? (I expect this to be another discussion without conclusion!) I am building a Bowser K4. The K4 at RMOP has the red. However, I have seen b/w photos of K4's at York (I am modeling the Northern Central) and they do not have the red. My model, therefore, will not. BTW: Read a new source on power on the Northern Central. Maxed at K & L classes. The line got the Pennsy's only two K5's once the M's came out. One K5 was used in place of two K4's. The L class was the Northern Central's M1. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 07 Jul 97 08:50:07 UT Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 133 > The newly restored BP20 looks great! Uh, EP20? A BP20 is a passenger Shark, and unless I badly missed something... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 08:55:48 UT Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 611 From: shadow@dementia.org >> The newly restored BP20 looks great! >Uh, EP20? >A BP20 is a passenger Shark, and unless I badly missed something... Uh, yeah! (If only they had a restored Shark!!!) Guess I was thinking / typing a bit fast! Life would be so much simpler if the PRR had used manufacturer model numbers instead of their own "classes". But then, we wouldn't have as much to talk about, would we? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CBlood59@aol.com Date: 07 Jul 97 09:06:25 UT Subject: Re: GP 38, 40 Content-Length: 155 Hello, Did PRR run any GP 38's or 40's? I have a BN and Conrail that I would like to repaint, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense. Curt Blood !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 07 Jul 97 09:14:38 UT Subject: Re: GP 38, 40 Content-Length: 385 > Hello, > > Did PRR run any GP 38's or 40's? I have a BN and Conrail that I would like > to repaint, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense. Neither. After the GP35s the PRR started buying six axle units again because various improvements that had been made in that arena made those engines more useful for the needs of the railroad. For instance, adhesion... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 07 Jul 97 09:31:03 UT Subject: Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 372 >From: shadow@dementia.org > >>> The newly restored BP20 looks great! > >>Uh, EP20? > >>A BP20 is a passenger Shark, and unless I badly missed something... > >Uh, yeah! (If only they had a restored Shark!!!) > - ----- Damn! Now I have to unpack my bags. When I saw you original BP20 post, I was ready to go to PA this morning! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 07 Jul 97 10:07:09 UT Subject: Re: GP 38, 40 Content-Length: 243 In a message dated 97-07-07 09:12:23 EDT, you write: << Did PRR run any GP 38's or 40's? I have a BN and Conrail that I would like to repaint, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense. >> No. SD40 but no GP40 or GP38 Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 10:39:24 UT Subject: Another Call For Layout Descriptions Content-Length: 954 Another solicitation for information... Prior to the "great drive crash" in May, I had a description of someone's layout who was modeling the Philadelphia Terminal Division, inclusive of 30th Street and Suburban Stations. I don't remember who it was, but I'd like to get a description of your layout back online at "Keystone Crossings". Please contact me! Anyone else who has a PRR layout, I'd like to post a description of your work as well. Please send details to me at "jerry@dsop.com". Layouts in the construction and / or planning stages are welcome also. (Penn Central and Conrail layouts based on former PRR trackage are welcome as well.) Thanks. Current layout descriptions are at http://prr.dsop.com/layouts . There are six online thus far. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 11:00:13 UT Subject: Questions About Northern Central Content-Length: 1568 Hank: (Post is to Hank Mummert, a Northern Central modeler, with copy to "PRR-Talk" list) As you know, I am modeling the Northern Central from York to York Haven (south of Enola, north of Wago Junction). I will be representing Baltimore in the form of a visible staging yard. I may have an opportunity to go beyond staging somewhat, given a better idea of the prototype. I'm not that familiar with Baltimore, but I suspect you are... Was the Northern Central's Baltimore passenger station the one that still stands just off the east side of Interstate 83 about 1/2 mile before the highway ends in downtown Baltimore? If so, the connection to the ex-B&P would be to the north (York side of the station) and the connection to Philly to the south. Correct? Where were the coach yards, Pullman service, and REA in relation to the station? I have read references of a Wye in the area. Was the Wye between the B&P and NC lines just north of the station, or elsewhere? Does the Northeast Corridor still pass through this station, or has it been relocated (perhaps decades ago!)? The NC had an engine facility in Mt. Vernon, just north of the Baltimore station. Which side of the line was this facility on....east or west? (West side, I believe.) Does the current commuter rail system follow the ex-NC right of way? If so, for how far? Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 07 Jul 97 11:17:49 UT Subject: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 987 Greetings to the group, The book store at the Strasburg RR has to be the all time best book store I have ever been in. Took the family there two years ago. If it's in print and about railroading, they seem to have it. They even had that obscure book, _ Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad, 1895-1968_, Pennsylvania State University Press, c1980, by that little known author, the list's very own Mike Bezilla. If they had that, you know they must have everything! Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 08:25 AM 7/7/97 UT, you wrote: > >Went to Strasburg yesterday, to the RMOP. It was "Reading Days" (yawn) this >weekend. > >My pulse jumped momentarily in the bookstore when I saw a whole shelf full >of Pullman-Standard volumes. Alas, no Volume 4's to be found! >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 07 Jul 97 11:27:19 UT Subject: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 545 In a message dated 97-07-07 08:43:37 EDT, Jerry wrote: << BTW: Read a new source on power on the Northern Central. Maxed at K & L classes. The line got the Pennsy's only two K5's once the M's came out. One K5 was used in place of two K4's. The L class was the Northern Central's M1. >> That may be true for the southern part of the Northern Central, but the M class did operate to Sodus Point. Only at the bitter end and not for long. Jerry, don't hold out on us. What is the new source on the Northern Central? John Keel !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 11:29:16 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 1384 From: drm6@psu.edu > The book store at the Strasburg RR has to be the all time best book store I > have ever been in. Took the family there two years ago. If it's in print and > about railroading, they seem to have it. They even had that obscure book, _ > Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad, 1895-1968_, Pennsylvania > State University Press, c1980, by that little known author, the list's very > own Mike Bezilla. If they had that, you know they must have everything! I agree...this is a great bookstore. In fact, they do as much with videos as they do with books. They are also very helpful in filling telephone orders. I have twice given a book name to my wife and she ordered it for me as a gift. Never a problem. Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only $16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! BTW: That's the store that had all the Pullman books...except for Volume 4 that we all want! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 07 Jul 97 13:52:49 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 672 > >Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm >kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of >all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive >of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only >$16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! > >BTW: That's the store that had all the Pullman books...except for Volume 4 >that we all want! >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, - ---- Does anyone know if they have a webpage or e-mail address or (as a last resort) what their phone number is? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 07 Jul 97 14:06:18 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 549 > Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm > kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of > all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive > of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only > $16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! Hmmm. This means you have contact info. Willing to share with us a phone number and a mailing address? (I prefer not to use phone as I think it is "greatly evil", but...) -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 14:22:38 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 357 From: shadow@dementia.org > Hmmm. This means you have contact info. Willing to share with us a phone number > and a mailing address? Will post tonite, from home. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 07 Jul 97 15:13:41 UT Subject: Internet Map Sites Content-Length: 540 I used to have a link (you know, before the crash) to a Web site wherein you could enter a city, zip code, etc., and navigate an online map. Anyone have this link or a similar one? Want to call up some Baltimore real estate to locate RoW of Northern Central where it meets/met B & P and line to Philly. Anyone have track plans for this area? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 07 Jul 97 15:29:20 UT Subject: 1953 roster of all PRR passenger equipment was Re: Bookstore Content-Length: 1924 Greetings to the group, Minor warning about this book. I have a copy of this equipment list. Ordered it from the 'publisher' last winter. (Also have the info at home.) I posted a review of it to this list after I received it. Can't seem to find a copy of the review I posted. The order was filled quickly by the 'publisher'. The problem is that is is not a complete roster of passenger equipment as I was lead to believe from a review in _Railroad Model Craftsman_. It seems to be a listing of the equipment assigned to a region or division. My guess it is Philly, based on the book's introduction. Is it worth the price? I would say yes. As long as you realize that it is not the be-all-end-all listing of PRR passenger equipment, it's good as an additional source of data. I did some checks of non-Pullman passenger equipment. I came up with more misses than hits. The guy who 'publishes' this also has a reprint of the PRR 1951 Book of Rules. I picked up a copy of it at English's in Montoursville, PA, while visiting my parents over the 4th. By the way, English's also has the Passenger Equipment Roster Book, if you have trouble tracking it down from the 'publisher' or Strassburg. Both of these books, the Book of Rules and passenger equipment list, are very good photocopies with stiff card covers. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA >Yesterday I spied another "homegrown" book I hadn't heard of before. Now I'm >kicking myself for not buying it. Figures! Anyway, it was a 1953 roster of >all PRR passenger equipment, including cabins and express cars --- exclusive >of Pullmans. Provided classes, car numbers, truck types, etc. Was only >$16-20. Guess I gotta pick up the phone now! > >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jul 97 16:59:00 UT Subject: Re: Northern Central Article (Was: Red loco roofs and tender decks) Content-Length: 796 From: britton@pit-magnus.com >> Jerry, don't hold out on us. What is the new source on the Northern >> Central? > > I could tell you, but then... > > No big deal. It's an article (about a dozen pages) from an issue of Rails > Northeast that I borrowed. I'll have to let you know the month and year > later, as I borrowed several and have them at home. The article includes a > diagram and photos of CLY interlocking (where the Atglen & Susquehanna and > the Northern Central first interface just north of Wago Junction and York > Haven). The issue was March, 1979. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jul 97 17:01:42 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR was Re: Railroad Museum of Pa. Content-Length: 606 From: britton@pit-magnus.com > > Hmmm. This means you have contact info. Willing to share with us a phone number > > and a mailing address? > > Will post tonite, from home. Can't find the phone number direct to the bookstore. Museum store address is: Department M; The Whistle Stop Shop; Railroad Museum of PA; P.O. Box 125; Strasburg, PA 17579. Phone number is: 717-687-8628. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 07 Jul 97 22:32:27 UT From: cobrandt@eclipse.net Subject: Re: Internet Map Sites Content-Length: 511 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > I used to have a link (you know, before the crash) to a Web site wherein you > could enter a city, zip code, etc., and navigate an online map. > > Anyone have this link or a similar one? > try http://www.mapquest.com -Chris _______ __\ /__ ----------\ P /---------- -----------\ R R /----------- ------------\ /------------ \___/ Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 00:09:14 UT Subject: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 246 Jerry did you contact Charlie Horan from the Phila. chapter of the PRRT&HS he has the remaining stock of RNE's and Penny Journals and if anyone would know where Bob Reid is he would. Charlie's # is 215-586-5214 tell him I gave you his name. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVPedro@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 07:46:45 UT Subject: Map Sites Content-Length: 230 Try these hyper links for Maps Cyber 411 - Fifteen Search Engine s, One Query , Infoseek , Yahoo! , !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 07:56:24 UT Subject: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 1722 No responses to my query yesterday about the Northern Central station in Baltimore. Here's a revised question: The Northen Central initially terminated in Baltimore, at Calvert Station, off the Jones Falls. When the B&P (Baltimore & Potomac) was created, it come in and joined the NC just northwest of Calvert Station. Both lines entered the station from the same (northwest) side. This junction was/is called B&P Junction. When the link was made to the PB & W (Philadelphia, Baltimore and Wilmington), a new Union Station (later renamed Penn Station) was created .8 miles southeast of the existing Calvert Station (which remained in use). The new station was a union station for the PB&W, B&P, NC, and Western Maryland. Rails Northeast, March 1979, and Gunnerson's book on the NC, describe the connection between Calvert and the new Union Station as a wye. This was known as Union Junction. There were passenger engine facilities, including a turntable inside the wye. Of the three legs of the wye, one was obviously the joint NC/B&P line. I am guessing that another was the Western Maryland and the third the PB&W -- with the station on the PB&W leg. Is this correct? Or was one leg a joint PB&W/WM line with the station being on a stub leg of the wye? Is the Union Junction to B&P Junction still active today as part of the Northeast Corridor, or has it been bypassed? If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: harperd@arctic.tamug.tamu.edu Date: 08 Jul 97 09:28:38 UT Subject: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks Content-Length: 618 In the Spring 1996 edition of the Keystone, pages 20, 21 and 25, are photos made in 1955 of L-1s engines used for generating steam heat. The photo on page 20 is an overhead shot and the both the roof and tender deck are red. On page 21 you can tell the roofs are red. On page 25, are back to back L1s engines, one of which has a red roof and one appears not to. The tender deck, if painted red, is very faded on one. The other appears to be modified and is not red. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540; fax 409/740-5002 harperd@tamug.tamu.edu !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 08 Jul 97 09:42:44 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 4315 > No responses to my query yesterday about the Northern Central station in > Baltimore. Here's a revised question: > > The Northen Central initially terminated in Baltimore, at Calvert Station, > off the Jones Falls. When the B&P (Baltimore & Potomac) was created, it come > in and joined the NC just northwest of Calvert Station. Both lines entered > the station from the same (northwest) side. This junction was/is called B&P > Junction. > > When the link was made to the PB & W (Philadelphia, Baltimore and > Wilmington), a new Union Station (later renamed Penn Station) was created .8 > miles southeast of the existing Calvert Station (which remained in use). The > new station was a union station for the PB&W, B&P, NC, and Western Maryland. > > Rails Northeast, March 1979, and Gunnerson's book on the NC, describe the > connection between Calvert and the new Union Station as a wye. This was > known as Union Junction. There were passenger engine facilities, including a > turntable inside the wye. > > Of the three legs of the wye, one was obviously the joint NC/B&P line. I am > guessing that another was the Western Maryland and the third the PB&W -- > with the station on the PB&W leg. Is this correct? Jerry, I can try to describe in English what the place looks like now. Working from the south and west, the B&P line (NEC) goes N/B thru Balto, west of downtown. At Fulton Jct. the WM comes in at a wye, and the B&P turns somewhat NE. After another tunnel, one reaches B&P Jct tower, where the NC comes in. [The NC had the more favorable angle of approach into Penn Station.] B&P Jct tower was accessed by a short walk off the end of the station platform. The NEC (B&P) continues turning, ultimately facing ESE. THis azimuth is maintained into and through the station. This may be Union RR by this time; I'm uncertain of the exact property line. That's another point you didn't mention, come to think of it. The reason for the name B&P Jct is that that was where the B&P joined. That's obvious. Less obvious, perhaps, is that the name Union Jct comes from the Union RR, which "officially" owned and built the Union Tunnels east of the station, and which connected the PW&B with the NC and B&P. At the east end of the station, at the end of one of the platforms, once stood the very handsome Union Jct tower. (It was removed in the Penn Sta. trackage remodeling a few years ago.) Here the current main line turned slightly so as to go straight E, passed through the Union Tunnels, and connected to the PW&B and Bayview Yard. Just before the tunnels (I believe) was the connection to the street-running trackage that ended at President St. Station, which is a nicely preserved building in the 'Inner Harbor'. > Or was one leg a joint PB&W/WM line with the station being on a stub leg of > the wye? Jerry, note that PB&W [Phila, Balto & Wash] was a later company created by the Pennsy to control, somehow, the Pennsy's PW&B [Phila, Wilm & Balto], the Union, and the B&P holdings. Don't quote me on specifics, however. I've not read that part of Burgess & Kennedy in a while. I don't believe the PW&B and WM had any joint trackage, or they had very little. The WM _did_ have trackage rights into and through Penna Station, I believe to access some freight trackage on the north side of Balto. harbor. WM did have their own freight line thru Balto, still in use and remarkably, still signalled, that cut off before the aforementioned Fulton Jct., went south, then turned east to run along the northern side of the peninsula on the south side of the harbor. > Is the Union Junction to B&P Junction still active today as part of the > Northeast Corridor, or has it been bypassed? NEC (see above). > If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, > when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? Jerry, unless I'm totally messed up, I believe that Calvert Stn is _east_ of Penn, not west. There is no room west. Are you sure your source is not messed up? I'd have to inspect a map of Balto, which I don't have, but I thought Calvert was at that "other" wye, where the trackage down to the President St Sta. cut off to the south. Can anyone confirm? -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 10:19:24 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 1300 From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Jerry, I can try to describe in English what the place looks like now. Mark: Thanks for your fine and helpful description. > > If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, > > when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? > > Jerry, > unless I'm totally messed up, I believe that Calvert Stn is _east_ of > Penn, not west. There is no room west. Are you sure your source is not > messed up? Both Gunarson and the RNE article state that Union (later Penn) Station was south of Calvert (an extension of the existing line). However, they note that the distance between stations was only 8/10ths of a mile. Both Calvert and Penn remained in use for locals, but the "big" trains all used Penn. There were three iterations of stations on the Penn site. Perhaps when the most recent Penn was built, both Calvert and the old Penn were razed? Photos show Calvert immediately southeast of B&P Junction. Penn would have to then be almost on top of it. (See my post from just a few minutes ago which has a link to a map I labeled.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 08 Jul 97 11:07:37 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 707 On 8 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > Both Gunarson and the RNE article state that Union (later Penn) Station was > south of Calvert (an extension of the existing line). However, they note > that the distance between stations was only 8/10ths of a mile. Both Calvert > and Penn remained in use for locals, but the "big" trains all used Penn. > > There were three iterations of stations on the Penn site. Perhaps when the > most recent Penn was built, both Calvert and the old Penn were razed? I have a book at home called "Baltimore and it's Streetcars" which I seem to recall said the Calvert Station was razed for some other reason; I'll have to dig it out and find out. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net Date: 08 Jul 97 13:06:22 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR Content-Length: 172 The Depot attice also has a location in Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry, NY. You must call and make an appointment to come in but it is run by the same people under the same roof. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 13:12:41 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR Content-Length: 476 From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net > The Depot attice also has a location in Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry, NY. You > must call and make an appointment to come in but it is run by the same > people under the same roof. Must be a big roof to cover both Strasburg and Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry!!! ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net Date: 08 Jul 97 13:59:28 UT Subject: Re: Bookstore at Strasburg RR Content-Length: 377 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: cmptrttr@bestweb.net > > > The Depot attice also has a location in Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry, NY. You > > must call and make an appointment to come in but it is run by the same > > people under the same roof. > > Must be a big roof to cover both Strasburg and Ardsley/Dobbs Ferry!!! ;-) hey Im dumb leave my mistakes alone. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 14:55:05 UT Subject: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 437 I haven't heard any official announcements about a 1997 Railfest event in Altoona, but the Penn State Model Railroad Club has the dates of 4 & 5 of October on their Web site (http://www.clubs.psu.edu/mrrc/events/index.html). Can anyone confirm? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com Date: 08 Jul 97 15:29:41 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 462 Hello to all - Yes, Altoona's 3rd annual Railfest is slated for Oct 4 & 5 this year. The Railroaders Memorial Museum is working with Conrail, Norfolk Southern, and Amtrak for equipment displays. The Juniata Shops tour, first conducted last year, is also in the works, according to the latest Museum newsletter. Brochures available in the next few weeks. Also, info should soon be available, if not already, at www.railroadcity.com Carl Haslett !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 08 Jul 97 15:39:08 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 623 From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com > Yes, Altoona's 3rd annual Railfest is slated for Oct 4 & 5 this year. I'm packin'!!! Who's with me? Don't suppose there are any rooms left at the Station Inn in Cresson?! Really, though, I'm in the Harrisburg / York corridor. Anyone from the area want to pencil in a group trip? > Also, info should soon be available, if not already, at www.railroadcity.com Just checked. Nothing yet. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 08 Jul 97 17:28:58 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 450 On 8 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > From: chaslett@camden.lmco.com > > > Yes, Altoona's 3rd annual Railfest is slated for Oct 4 & 5 this year. > > I'm packin'!!! Who's with me? Don't suppose there are any rooms left at the > Station Inn in Cresson?! I'll be there one day or the other. Probably Sunday given that there's no way in hell I'll be done with my house by then and we tend to work Saturday nights... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 08 Jul 97 19:12:37 UT Subject: Rails Northeast (was: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks) Content-Length: 1075 From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > Jerry did you contact Charlie Horan from the Phila. chapter of the PRRT&HS he > has the remaining stock of RNE's and Penny Journals and if anyone would know > where Bob Reid is he would. Charlie's # is 215-586-5214 tell him I gave you > his name. Just got off the phone with him. First, his area code is now 610. Second, he hasn't spoken with Bob Reid in years. Last knew him to be in Pittsburgh area, but heard he may have moved to Denver. Third, reprints. Doesn't look good. Claims he (Charlie) bought the "rights" as well as the stock of back issues. Has quite an investment, so likely won't let us just scan them in and post them in Acrobat format. 8-( I can certainly understand his side, but it's a shame to have such a large collection of worthwhile information and no inexpensive way to share it. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: crts@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Date: 08 Jul 97 19:41:04 UT Subject: Re: Rails Northeast (was: Re: Red loco roofs and tender decks) Content-Length: 1206 Bob Reid became a minister and now lives in Kentucky. At 07:12 PM 7/8/97 +0000, you wrote: > >From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > >> Jerry did you contact Charlie Horan from the Phila. chapter of the PRRT&HS >he >> has the remaining stock of RNE's and Penny Journals and if anyone would >know >> where Bob Reid is he would. Charlie's # is 215-586-5214 tell him I gave >you >> his name. > >Just got off the phone with him. First, his area code is now 610. > >Second, he hasn't spoken with Bob Reid in years. Last knew him to be in >Pittsburgh area, but heard he may have moved to Denver. > >Third, reprints. Doesn't look good. Claims he (Charlie) bought the "rights" >as well as the stock of back issues. Has quite an investment, so likely >won't let us just scan them in and post them in Acrobat format. 8-( > >I can certainly understand his side, but it's a shame to have such a large >collection of worthwhile information and no inexpensive way to share it. >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 21:18:10 UT Subject: S1 Spec (was Route of S1 to World's Fair) Content-Length: 371 I was at the Red Caboose Lodge in Strasburg over the weekend and bought a copy of the September, 1939 issue of Railroad Magazine. It has a rather detailed specification for the S1 which I would be willing to post if their is any interest. Also the article indicated that it was lettered "American Railroads" while at the Fair, not Pennsylvania railroad. Harold !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 08 Jul 97 21:29:54 UT Subject: Trainphone in August Trains Magazine Content-Length: 193 Attention SPF's, Check out the article by James Alexander on Radio and Trainphone on pages 52-58 of the August 1997 Trains magazine. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BowerPRR@aol.com Date: 08 Jul 97 22:34:45 UT Subject: Re: Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore Content-Length: 570 Gentlmen to assist in your search on data about the Pennsylvania Station-Baltimore the PRRT&HS "KEYSTONE" Spring 1995 issue has a first rate article. The publication provides the reader with a wealth of documentation on the history and physical plant on the station. Photographs and a 1912 track plan, plus a 1955 track chart support author Frank A. Wrabel's piece. Contact:PRRT&HS Business Office:PRRT&HS P.O. Box 389 Upper Darby, Pa. 19082 B.C.Bower !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rcnelson@bright.net Date: 08 Jul 97 22:44:24 UT Subject: Where's the PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 179 Have tried to send mail to PRR T&HS via their web site and it returns. Also note that the last update listed is Sept. of 1996. Any info? Rick Nelson rcnelson@bright.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: dfresh20@erols.com Date: 08 Jul 97 22:45:07 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 457 Jerry, Take a look at the Keystone from Spring 1995. The vast majority of the issue was devoted to a history of Penn Station in Baltimore. Unfortunately, the avaliable maps in the article skip from arrangement of the lines and stations in 1911 (page 19) to a wider area map circa 1970 on page 61. Didn't pick through all the text to see what descriptions of changes there were between 1911 and 1970. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 08 Jul 97 23:59:54 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 2582 Also in re: http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/balt_penn_sta.gif > Both Gunarson and the RNE article state that Union (later Penn) Station was > south of Calvert (an extension of the existing line). However, they note > that the distance between stations was only 8/10ths of a mile. Both Calvert > and Penn remained in use for locals, but the "big" trains all used Penn. 8/10 mile is not very far, indeed. Yet, Calvert St. is east of the present Penn Station ... > There were three iterations of stations on the Penn site. Perhaps when the > most recent Penn was built, both Calvert and the old Penn were razed? > Photos show Calvert immediately southeast of B&P Junction. Penn would have > to then be almost on top of it. (See my post from just a few minutes ago > which has a link to a map I labeled.) Your map labels the B&P portal correctly. The tower is considerably east of what you way; I believe it was very near if not even east of Maryland Ave. The interlocking is l-o-n-g. Your "Union RR to harbor" is actually PW&B, and your PB&W cannot be so, but is PW&B. The page numbers below are from Burgess & Kennedy. Page 138 refers to "Calvert Street station" [capitalization thus] at the time of the Civil War. Pp. 141-2 mention the Canton Extension, never completed. P. 141 mentions the Union RR Co., organized 1866 to build a line from Relay on the NC [later Hollins] to the waterfront -- thus your Union RR may be correct ... The place of connection was later changed to Balto proper. P. 277 states the B&P was connected to the NC at "the new Union Depot" in July 873. P. 278 describes the Union RR line from the NC "new Union Depot on Charles St." to the PW&B at Bay View Jct. We now jump to p. 523 where it is mentioned that the old Union Depot was built in 1886, the new one in 1911. I saw at least 2 other references to "Calvert _Street_ station" [italics mine]. I am skeptical. I think the Calvert St station was close to Calvert St, i.e. 0.8 miles _east_, not west, of the (old) Union Depot. The only reference to the former station's location I found was "Charles St", which implies that it may well have been somewhat _west_ of the current Penna Stn. Remember, too, that the streets there were elevated at the time the present station was built. The older Union Depot could have been _west_ of Charles St, for all we know. A Calvert St. Station 0.8 miles east of Charles would place it between Calvert St and Guilford Ave, i.e., just before the wye where the Union RR started. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 01:29:15 UT Subject: steam loco colors: Russian Iron? Content-Length: 506 Hi Guys, As I'm on vacation, I'm going great guns on building my locomotives. I'm to the point of painting. Is this right: Dark locomotive color--boiler, firebox, cab and tender sides, black, pilot and everything else below the footboards, bottom of the tender and tender trucks, wierd shade of red, may or may not be freight car colot or freight car color mixed with black, cab roof, top of tender Russian Iron--smokebox My question: Does anyone make Russian Iron as a color?\ Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 05:27:13 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 237 There was a great article in the Keystone (Spring 1995) which covered the various routes into Baltimore quite thoroughly and would, I believe, answer all the questions which have been raised so far in this thread. Rich Copeland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 05:27:46 UT Subject: New Freedom question Content-Length: 323 Just received a flyer called "Northern Central Notes". About 90% of it is dinner-train related. But they mention an upcoming railfan event (Aug 9,10) which will include track car rides on the line south from New Freedom. Could anyone tell me how far south they might go with these railcars? Rich Copeland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rncamp@harford.campus.mci.net Date: 09 Jul 97 06:43:08 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 2406 Jerry ; Reguarding your question about the area between B&P and Union Junictions in Balitmore. This is the area where the present Penn Station stands. The wye at Union was a PRR Plant with the W M having rights on it. For your info one of the Calvert St. structures still stand and is know as the Downtown Athletic Club and where the old Baltimore Sun building now stands is the site of the passenger station. ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Revised Baltimore Question > Date: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 3:56 AM > > > No responses to my query yesterday about the Northern Central station in > Baltimore. Here's a revised question: > > The Northen Central initially terminated in Baltimore, at Calvert Station, > off the Jones Falls. When the B&P (Baltimore & Potomac) was created, it come > in and joined the NC just northwest of Calvert Station. Both lines entered > the station from the same (northwest) side. This junction was/is called B&P > Junction. > > When the link was made to the PB & W (Philadelphia, Baltimore and > Wilmington), a new Union Station (later renamed Penn Station) was created .8 > miles southeast of the existing Calvert Station (which remained in use). The > new station was a union station for the PB&W, B&P, NC, and Western Maryland. > > Rails Northeast, March 1979, and Gunnerson's book on the NC, describe the > connection between Calvert and the new Union Station as a wye. This was > known as Union Junction. There were passenger engine facilities, including a > turntable inside the wye. > > Of the three legs of the wye, one was obviously the joint NC/B&P line. I am > guessing that another was the Western Maryland and the third the PB&W -- > with the station on the PB&W leg. Is this correct? > > Or was one leg a joint PB&W/WM line with the station being on a stub leg of > the wye? > > Is the Union Junction to B&P Junction still active today as part of the > Northeast Corridor, or has it been bypassed? > > If I were southbound out of Calvert Station, bound for Union/Penn Station, > when I got to the wye, would I bear right or left? > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:01:14 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 646 Mark: Thanks for your long recap on the Baltimore situation. Plus, my apology about the location of Calvert. I discovered last night that the info in RNE was misleading. Gunnarson's map (p.31) shows Calvert and a description on later pages indicates where Union/Penn was built -- which matched the map I did yesterday. I'm going to locate that 1995 Keystone. It should hold what I am looking for. Again, thanks all! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:43:40 UT Subject: Re: New Freedom question Content-Length: 958 From: PRRMAN@aol.com > Just received a flyer called "Northern Central Notes". About > 90% of it is dinner-train related. But they mention an upcoming > railfan event (Aug 9,10) which will include track car rides on the > line south from New Freedom. > > Could anyone tell me how far south they might go with these > railcars? I plan on attending this event, probably on Saturday, as that is the only day of the Memorabilia Show. As for the rides, I thought they went north...the same route as the dinner train (which I highly recommend). Don't know how far south the tracks are intact. Trackage rights north go to within 2 miles of York. A contact of mine says they will have access all the way into York by the end of the summer. We'll see. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:50:18 UT Subject: Re: Revised Baltimore Question Content-Length: 1800 From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Your map labels the B&P portal correctly. The tower is considerably east of > what you way; I believe it was very near if not even east of Maryland Ave. > The interlocking is l-o-n-g. The interlocking may be l-o-n-g, but the Rails Northeast article contains a photo that is from a relatively close range. Looking west, the Northern Central line disappears under the North Street/Avenue Bridge to the right. The B&P portal is just to the east of this, with the tracks disappearing underground and going under North St. Towards the left side of the photo is B&P Junction tower. Left to right, the photo does not show more than 500 feet. > I am skeptical. I think the Calvert St station was close to Calvert St, > i.e. 0.8 miles _east_, not west, of the (old) Union Depot. The only > reference to the former station's location I found was "Charles St", > which implies that it may well have been somewhat _west_ of the current > Penna Stn. Remember, too, that the streets there were elevated at the > time the present station was built. The older Union Depot could have been > _west_ of Charles St, for all we know. A Calvert St. Station 0.8 miles > east of Charles would place it between Calvert St and Guilford Ave, i.e., > just before the wye where the Union RR started. Gunnarson's book has a map on page 31 which clearly shows the location of Calvert Station. Calvert Street ran north/south. The station was located at the intersection of Calvert and Fulton (east/west). This does place it in the range of 8/10 mile to the new Union/Penn Station. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 07:53:36 UT Subject: Re: Where's the PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 808 From: rcnelson@bright.net > Have tried to send mail to PRR T&HS via their web site and it returns. > Also note that the last update listed is Sept. of 1996. Any info? That's what I've been asking for months! What bothers me more is that, as a Friend of the Railroad Museum (Strasburg, Pa.), I volunteered my time and Web server to set up an official site for the museum. I got a "thanks, no thanks" as the museum was purchasing its own computer to edit pages which were to be served from RRHISTORICAL.COM. That was months ago. Unfortunately, to "to be" editor was the same as that for the PRRT&HS pages! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bnixon@pop.pitt.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 08:21:39 UT Subject: PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 360 Their site has unknown address for Pittsburgh Chapter - I don't have it handy, will post soon - another site has address, but it is from old newsletter editor. Bill Nixon Have tried to send mail to PRR T&HS via their web site and it returns. Also note that the last update listed is Sept. of 1996. Any info? Rick Nelson rcnelson@bright.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 09:06:26 UT Subject: RE: Baltimore Content-Length: 1014 I have a new map of Baltimore online. This one was created with a CD I have...StreetAtlasUSA. It is several years old, but since our "concern" is decades old, who cares! I believe all annotations to be correct on this one. Streets are named, providing confirmation via Gunnerson and other sources. Shown are Union Junction (not in detail--third side of wye is missing), Pennsylvania Station (between two identified road overpasses), B&P Junction tower (based on photo in Rails Northeast), B&P Tunnel Portal (same spot as previous map, going under North St.), and Mt. Vernon Engine Facility (based on photo in Gunnarson's book, taken from North St. overpass). The new URL is "http://prr.dsop.com/maps/images/baltimore.jpeg". However, the file is 390K, so I only recommend you peek if you are really interested. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 09:11:28 UT Subject: RE: steam loco colors: Russian Iron? Content-Length: 634 I believe the "Red Roof" scheme also called for the cab window frame to be red. regards Andy Miller >Hi Guys, > >As I'm on vacation, I'm going great guns on building my locomotives. I'm to >the point of painting. Is this right: > >Dark locomotive color--boiler, firebox, cab and tender sides, >black, pilot and everything else below the footboards, bottom of the tender >and tender trucks, >wierd shade of red, may or may not be freight car colot or freight car color >mixed with black, cab roof, top of tender >Russian Iron--smokebox > >My question: Does anyone make Russian Iron as a color?\ > >Tom V. > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 09:42:26 UT Subject: Re: Altoona Railfest 1997 Content-Length: 752 Greetings to the group, Called the Museum this morning. Railfest is indeed scheduled for October 4 and 5. For details check out thier web site at http://www.railroadcity.com Details on Railfest 97 should be up soon. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 02:55 PM 7/8/97 UT, you wrote: > >I haven't heard any official announcements about a 1997 Railfest event in >Altoona, but the Penn State Model Railroad Club has the dates of 4 & 5 of >October on their Web site (http://www.clubs.psu.edu/mrrc/events/index.html). > >Can anyone confirm? >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 10:18:36 UT Subject: Review: "Model Railroad Operations, Vol. I, Interchange" Content-Length: 2436 I had the opportunity to view another one of Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) videos. This time, volume 1 of their Model Railroad Operations series. The topic: Interchange. The jacket reads: "Your hosts in this video are model railroad operators Jim Hertzog, Lehigh New England Railroad; Bill Gruber, Reading Lines; and Ken McCorry, Pennsylvania Railroad. These masters of OPERATIONS show how on and off line "Interchange" traffic is generated. You will follow specified cars across each layout as they are prototypically "interchanged" between model railroads. Hear each host explain realistic operations using car cards, crew assignments, Digital Command Control and dispatching. 40 minutes. All-color, graphics, narration, prototype sound. First, this is the coolest concept I have seen in model railroad videos. The obvious theme is realistic operations on a model railroad. Each of the three hosts describe their own waybill and operative systems. Been there, done that. What makes this video unique, is that it traces the progress of two units of cars from one model railroad to the next! We start with two covered cement hoppers at the east end of Jim Hertzog's Lehigh New England Railroad, and follow his train west to Tamaqua. We then go to Bill Gruber's Reading Lines (featured about a year ago in MR) and follow a westbound train underway in Phoenixville. We go through Pottstown and arrive in Reading where we pick up several limestone hoppers bound for points west. We then stop in Tamaqua and pick up the aforementioned cement hoppers. Here's where it's neat: Jim's engine, hoppers, and caboose are on Bill's layout! The interchange is made and the single consists heads west to Newberry Yard in Williamsport. We switch to viewing Bill's train on Ken McCorry's PRR. (Ken is a member of this list.) The cement gets interchanged to one PRR train and heads off to branch line to Renovo. The limestone goes to a BF16 led train west to "Port Allegheny" and its steel mill. The concept of this video is marvelous. It also gives us a view of three fine layouts. The video has been enhanced with some beautiful sound for super realism. This is one you can watch again and again! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 10:19:16 UT Subject: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings (long) Content-Length: 4080 Jerry, Sorry to ahve taken so long to review the material you made available on your website. I have here some additional info you may wish to fold in. I am posting this publicly via PRR-Talk so that anyone with additions or corrections may jump in and make their mark. Missing primary classes: D70 Diners PS6L 6br-lounge cars (the entry you have labeled PS6) PS13 13 br (the entry you have labeled "County") PS31L prewar 3br-1dr-lounge cars (the entry you have labeled PS31) PS13L postwar 3br-1dr-lounge cars PS142 14 rmt-2dr Anacostia River, Hackensack River (built for the ACL pool) POC70 Prewar modernized coach observation POC85 Postwar coach observation PP85 29 seat Parlor Car (Budd built Congressional/Senator) PP5a 7 day dr parlor (Congo) Z85 Business car ex Anasheiser Busch car "Adolphus" Now a word about sub classes: I'm guessing that the class designations were assigned during the postwar re-equipping of the fleet. I base this on the fact the the primary designation (the one with no letter suffix) invariably went to the post war cars and that the prewar car was sub class "a". For example The postwar "Tower View" was POS21 while the Prewar "Skyline View" was POS21a. Following this assumption, I made some guesses as to class designations I could not find documented anywhere. B70 Baggage Cars B70s = Scenery Car D70 Dining Cars (give me some more time - anyone wand to help. These cars was rebuilt into many new types including the FOM Bway diner and several twin units) D78 Dining cars (ditto) PS6L postwar "(tree) FALLS" 6 br-louge cars PS6Lb prewar (why "b" instead of "a" ????) POS21 postwar 2 mastr rooms- 1 br obs "MOUNTAIN VIEW", and "TOWER VIEW" POS21a prewar 2 mastr rooms- 1 br obs "METROPOLITAN","SKYLINE","FEDERAL", and "WASHINGTON" "VIEW" POS211 postwar 2dr-1cmp-1br obs ALEXANDER JOHNSON CASSAT, WILLIAM WALLACE ATTERBURY FRANK THOMSON JAMES McCREA SAMUEL REA GEORGE BROOK ROBERTS POS211a prewar 2dr-1cmp-1br obs WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN PATTERSON SAMUAL VAUGH MERRICK JOHN EDGAR THOMSON POC85 smooth-side coarch Jeffersonian obs POC85a Budd Congressi0onal parlor obs P85 coaches (from "PRR Rolling Stock Vol II - Coaches" by the staff of PC Railroader) P85a = Southwind P85b = Jeffersonian P85c = Pressed Steel Car Co experimental car # 4045 P85d = ACL pool P85e = SAL pool P85f = ACL pool P85h = Congressional/Senator P85k = Keystone P85l = converted POS21 P85m = converted ex N&W 10/6 D85 diners (from "PRR Rolling Stock Vol I - Diners" by the staff of PC Railroader) D85a = Budd Pisstburger, PennTexas, Golden Triangle D85c = dining room half of twin unit D85d = kitchen/dorm half of twin D85d = kitchen/tavern half of twin unit (for Congo) (why is this a duplicate???) D85ed = Lunch Counter car (for Congo) A word on assignmnets D82, P82 = Southwind PLC85 = Jeffersonian - entertainment car PL85R = Senator (I think the "R" is redundant - it meant "air conditioned", and like the "s" for superheated in stema locos, was eventually dropped) That's all for now (whew!) BTW 1. You have one misprint - PS125 has 5 brs (of course) 2. The collection of HW sleepers you list is random. The PRR operated and acquired (in 1948) a large number of these of which the ones you list are just a (non-representitive) sample. I don't think the acquired Pullman HWs ever got class designations. I can't find any reference to them. 3. The Bachmann HW sleeper will probably NOT be a 12-1. The only hint showed a foto (of a painted brass car) of a single vestibule betterment; Either a 6-6 or an 8-5, I think. It is announced for Sept on Walthers webpage! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 10:26:30 UT Subject: Review: "Model Railroad Operations: Helpers" Content-Length: 2136 Yeat another Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) video review. This time Volume 2 of the Model Railroad Operations series: Helpers The jacket reads: "Ken McCorry's Pennsylvania Railroad, North Central Region is the setting for this video on the use of helper operations. This 35' x 80' model railroad realistically recreates the PRR from Northumberland, PA to Buffalo, NY. Ride McCorry's Digital Command Control railroad as you follow a 60-car loaded ore train over the 2.5% ruling grade of Keating Summit. Listen to the radio chatter as a trio of RS-3 snappers (helpers) couple up to the cabin and begin to shove tonnage over the mountain. Hear McCorry's own thoughts on learning operations from the prototype and applying it to his model railroad empire. This is big-time model railroading at its best. 40 minutes. All-color, graphics, narration, prototype sound." Again, Ken is a member of this list. This layout is superb. What blows my mind is its level of completeness...it wasn't started until 1992! As with the other operations video, the sound effects make this a video you can watch over and over again. Ken describes his operation: 8 cabs, 4 yardmasters, 2 helper crews, and 2 tower operators during an operating sessions. Tower operators don't see the tracks. A radio system keeps everyone in contact, and the radio "soundtrack" is included in the video, along with the superb sound effects provided by Digital Image Works. As stated, this video follows the transport of an ore train over Keating Summit. It has five units up front and four in the back (note that the jacket says three). The really neat feature of this video is that there are numerous sequences where you are "riding in one of the helper cabs" via a (very small) camera mounted on a car at the rear of the consist. This provides some wonderful views, including one where the train goes underneath a coaling tower! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 10:58:39 UT Subject: RE: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings (long) Content-Length: 646 And now for the corrections to my horrid typing! I will ignore insignificant misspellings >PP5a 7 day dr parlor (Congo) should be "PP85a" > B70s = Scenery Car should be "B70a" > >POS211 postwar 2dr-1cmp-1br obs ALEXANDER JOHNSON CASSAT, > WILLIAM WALLACE ATTERBURY > FRANK THOMSON > JAMES McCREA > SAMUEL REA > GEORGE BROOK ROBERTS I forgot THOMAS ALEXANDER SCOTT (sorry Tom) And I complained about your ONE misprint!! >regards >Andy Miller > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bnsftulsa@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 11:08:35 UT Subject: Re: S1 Spec (was Route of S1 to World's Fair) Content-Length: 226 Some of the PRR steam engines returned from the Fair via the NH and NYC via Brewster and Maybrook. I have a copy of the NH notice regarding their movement around here somewhere. Dick Brundage Tulsa OK bnsftulsa@aol.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 11:10:21 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 1697 My thanks to Andy for his extenive update. Right now I have numerous materials on loan from Dave Wartel (on the list) and Bill Lewis (not). My priority is to scan these in and return the originals ASAP so as to not wear out my welcome. Tonight, for instance, I have another mile-long Philadelphia Division track chart to scan in. (Wednesday is "Boys 'n' Toys" night!) When I return to my own "works", the passenger info will be my priority, followed by the Northern Central history, diesels, steam, then electrics. Regarding the organization of the passenger area... The existing table will list MAJOR CLASSES and will be further edited to make corrections and additions. When a user clicks on the Class link (not there yet) a page will come up specific to the class. This new will provide subclass info -- for instance B70 Baggage cars had subclasses for "scenery cars" and "horse cars", etc -- specifications, unit rosters w/links to photos, road numbers vs. car names vs. "universal" serial numbers, betterment and renumbering info, floor plans and profile drawings (when available), modeling information, etc. As these pages develop, I will solicit outside information. For my initial data, I have the PRRT&HS "Color Guide to Passenger Equipment", "PRR Color Guide to Freight & Passenger Equipment" (volume 2, forget the author offhand), and "Pullman Standard Volume 4: PRR" (on loan). There's a lot of data to enter, and it may take a while, but will be well worth it. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 11:47:02 UT Subject: Re: Passenger Update for Keystone Crossings Content-Length: 205 BTW Union Station Products makes car sides for the P85d, e, and f. as well as the PS fluted 10/6 for service on the ACL, and SAL and the 10/6 and 14/4 for the Southern trains regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 12:07:25 UT Subject: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 519 Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power "Shark" body will fit? Walthers has lighted dummy "A" units available (again) in PRR paint. (Don't know if they are tuscan or brunswick -- only brunswick would be prototype due to the length of the unit -- passenger being longer to house the generator.) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rond@efn.org Date: 09 Jul 97 12:31:38 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 528 On 9 Jul 1997 britton@pit-magnus.com wrote: > > Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power > "Shark" body will fit? Hi Jerry, etc.., In n-scale we use the Atlas RS3 and Model Power/Lifelike FA2 mechanisms to power the after-market RF16 shells available. The wheelbase is not exact, from what I've been told, but they look pretty good. Perhaps in HO the Atlas RS3 would be a good choice. If anyone makes a good FA mechanism in HO it might be a possible. Hope this helps, Ron. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 13:18:35 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 1227 Jerry, Are these REALLY passenger sharks (BP20)?? I don't believe the original MP shark was overly long. I have a trio A-B-A running after more than 20 years. They still work and look lovely at the front of 50 hoppers. You may be confusing the sharks for the MP FA1.5. These were slightly long models of the Alco FA1s. They were made long so as to use the same mechanism that MP built for the Baldwins. But the length was correct for the sharks. Besides which, the BP20 were REALLY long. They were much longer than an E8. The freight sharks were the only PRR freight engines to ever be painted in 5-stripe BrunsXXXX, sorry, Dark Locomotive Enamel. regards Andy Miller >Anyone know of an existing powered unit in HO onto which a Model Power >"Shark" body will fit? > >Walthers has lighted dummy "A" units available (again) in PRR paint. (Don't >know if they are tuscan or brunswick -- only brunswick would be prototype >due to the length of the unit -- passenger being longer to house the >generator.) >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 13:29:48 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 1086 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > Are these REALLY passenger sharks (BP20)?? No! I can see from my earlier post how you were confused. My point was that the MP units were 1600 hp units (forget their model #'s). The Pennsy used the 1500 units as class BF15. If I recall, the MP units are "close enough". The Pennsy passenger units, class BP20, were 2000 hp and never modeled by anyone that I know of. My concern was, are the MP units (which are of the 1500/1600 hp variety) painted in tuscan or brunswick? If brunswick, it would pass as-is for BF15. If tuscan, it would need repainted because a BF15 would always be brunswick and a BP20 (much longer body) would always be tuscan. My guess is that ALL the MP units were painted for Pennsy freight service, aka brunswick, aka dark locomotive enamel. Just don't want to order and end up with tuscan units I must fuss with. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 13:34:52 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 230 Jerry, Please disregard my last post. I thought you said you would paint them Tuscan because of the length :-( Green is great - red is wrong. regards Andy Did I get through this post to you without any miztaykes? !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jul 97 13:55:02 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks Content-Length: 731 The ad says "Just Do It" so I did...ordered two of them. Worry about power later, since I don't even have a layout to run them on! Walther's seems to think they will be getting (from somewhere) more powered "A" units in NYC. If that ever proves true, I'd probably buy a pair and switch shells. If not, I'll let the units sit in the fueling racks at my engine facility until I find a powered unit I can drop the shells onto. Imagine I'll at least need to renumber one of the units...what's the chance I'll get two different numbers?! --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jul 97 14:11:03 UT Subject: RE: Model Power Sharks Content-Length: 412 >The ad says "Just Do It" so I did...ordered two of them. Worry about power >later, since I don't even have a layout to run them on! > >Jerry Britton - ----- You can't even run them as dummies with some other engine since Baldwins had a unique MU system and couldn't MU with anything else! How about coupling them on the rear of a freight and calling them "snappers"?? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 09 Jul 97 14:25:23 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks Content-Length: 1221 > Imagine I'll at least need to renumber one of the units...what's the chance > I'll get two different numbers?! There's one number. It's wrong. It's the same number as on their F-2A (not FA-2) because it's the same paint "stencil" if you will. It's also Tuscan so it's wrong anyhow. > My point was that the MP units were 1600 hp units (forget their model #'s). > The Pennsy used the 1500 units as class BF15. If I recall, the MP units are > "close enough". The MP's are RF16's. The Pennsy also had RF16's. The DR-4-4-1500 had a longer nose than the RF16's and so the MP shark is not accurate for those. I also recall doing some looking to see about repowering; Let me check tonight and see what I had come up with. > Walther's seems to think they will be getting (from somewhere) more powered > "A" units in NYC. If that ever proves true, I'd probably buy a pair and > switch shells. If not, I'll let the units sit in the fueling racks at my > engine facility until I find a powered unit I can drop the shells onto. You get to repaint the shell anyhow if you want it accurate; The NYC scheme is IMO easier to paint over so might as well just get those first time around. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 09 Jul 97 14:49:42 UT Subject: New Proto 200 HO diesels Content-Length: 301 Among the first release of Proto 2000 GP-9's: PRR #7160, #7221 w/dynamic brake And also the next group of E-7's: Pennsylvania #5860A, #5863A, #5856B, #5862B The E's will be Tuscan 5-stripe. I (hopefully) put in a reservation for an E-7A, and E-7B, a GP-9, and a E&C GP-9 this AM. -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 15:27:14 UT Subject: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? was Re: Review: "Model Railroad Content-Length: 1308 A question for Jerry, Ken and the group, I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberlund before being handed off for final delivery. This would not have routed them over Keating Summit. Did the South American ore that came in through Philly, travel north from Emporium to Buffalo? I had thought this ore went east on the Main Line and did not make it on to the Buffalo Line. I am planning to model the Buffalo Line from Lock Haven to at least Williamsport and possibly to Milton. Is your layout written up in any of the magazines Ken? Jerry, thanks for the reviews of the video. These seem to be a must have. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 10:26 AM 7/9/97 UT, you wrote: > >Yeat another Digital Image Works (http://www.diwks.com) video review. This >time Volume 2 of the Model Railroad Operations series: Helpers stuff removed >As stated, this video follows the transport of an ore train over Keating >Summit. It has five units up front and four in the back (note that the >jacket says three). > stuff removed >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator >Progressive Information Technologies >britton@pit-magnus.com >http://www.pit-magnus.com > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 09 Jul 97 16:15:41 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 976 > I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to > Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberland before being handed off > for final delivery. Drew, so far as I know, you're 100% correct. In Clarence Weaver's beautiful 16mm film "The Ore Train," now available as a videotape from Penn Valley Pictures, the opening shot shows docks at *Erie,* not Buffalo (although PRR did serve ore docks in Buffalo, too, so it's entirely possible that ore did move over Keating at some point). While a PRR route did extend from Pittsburgh to Buffalo (crossing the P&E at Corry), any train that would have been diverted that way, then turned south down the WNY&P to Emporium Jct., would add 103 miles to its trip, compared to a straight shot over the P&E from Erie to Emporium Jct., then on to the other points you named en route to the Lehigh Valley RR and the Bethlehem Steel mills at Bethlehem, Pa. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mxb13@psu.edu Date: 09 Jul 97 16:25:51 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 468 >> I thought the ore trains ran loaded from Erie to Emporium then to >> Lock Haven, Williamsport and Northumberland before being handed off >> for final delivery. > > >Drew, so far as I know, you're 100% correct. Yes, but was not Venezuelan ore brought in to Phila beginning in the mid 1950s, and did not the PRR ship some of that north to Beth steel's Lackawanna works via Keating Summit? I can't document this, I'm just raising the question. Mike !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 17:14:48 UT Subject: Re: Model Power Sharks/Repowering Content-Length: 160 If you've got the original Model Power drives remotoring with a Holland can will give you a really good running unit. The Model Power drive isn't that bad. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 09 Jul 97 17:41:15 UT Subject: prr-diesels.ter Content-Length: 257 Well, after another set of suggestions I've started working on the PRR diesels in HO scale page again; Take a look at the table which is slowly usurping http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/prr-diesels.html Comments welcomed/encouraged... Thanks -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 09 Jul 97 17:51:40 UT Subject: Re: Ore Trains on Keating Summit? Content-Length: 627 > Was not Venezuelan ore brought in to Phila beginning in the > mid 1950s, and did not the PRR ship some of that north to Beth > steel's Lackawanna works via Keating Summit? I can't document this, > I'm just raising the question. > > Mike Could be, Mike. PRR gave oodles of publicity to that $9 million ore dock (Pier 124) in South Philly, but in all the articles in The Pennsy and all the copy generated for annual reports, the company focused almost exclusively on where the ore *came from,* leaving its specific destination up to the imagination of readers. Dan Cupper cupper@ibm.net Psalm 27:8 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 09 Jul 97 18:16:14 UT Subject: available decals list... Content-Length: 300 Hi all, I'm working on a list of available PRR decals at http://www.internexus.net~/robs/PRR (only HO scale so far) It's pretty complete. Check it out and let me know what I've missed! (Does anyone have a Clover House catalog & want to type in the missing PRR sets for me?!!!!!!!) Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 19:53:55 UT Subject: Re: Where's the PRR T&HS ? Content-Length: 569 Apparently whoever put the PRRT&HS page on the web is not maintaining it. The PRRT&HS does not have an official presence on the web. You must rely on snail mail to the PRRT&HS Business Office at PO Box 389, Upper Darby, PA 19082 If you can't correspond by snail mail, you will never reach the Society. Remember the PRRT&HS is descended from the trainphone group who disdained radios. To the best of my knowledge none of the officers hae e-mail. It is my understanding that the web page was created by a member of the Philadelphia chapter. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 09 Jul 97 20:00:30 UT Subject: Re: steam loco colors: Russian Iron? Content-Length: 1714 In a message dated 97-07-09 17:55:08 EDT, you write: << I believe the "Red Roof" scheme also called for the cab window frame to be red. regards Andy Miller >Hi Guys, > >As I'm on vacation, I'm going great guns on building m