From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 05 Jun 97 11:51:20 UT Subject: Re: Rosters, in general Content-Length: 626 > << BTW Why isn't the PRRT&HS picking up on any of these ideas. (Or at least > > linking ti them) All their web page does is sell membership and t-shirts! > >> > Long ago the PRRT&HS decided it was a historical and technical organization > and not a modelers organization. That is why Teichmoller (sp?? sorry John) > series of articles on open hoppers appeared in MRing after the Keystone > declined to print them because they emphasized modeling as opposed to > historical and technical accuracy. I think it's more general than that. Many/most PRRT&HS members are not computer/Web-enabled. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 05 Jun 97 11:54:53 UT Subject: Re: Keystone Crossings Update Content-Length: 682 > >BTW: Anyone think this is a result of my "NYC merger" joke? > > If you factor in the time difference between a model vs the full > size prototype operating in real time, you can convert approximately 4-6 > weeks into two years. The Penn Central was born on February > 1, 1968 and was in bankruptcy by 1970. > > This was merely an imitation of prototype practices. Anybody > know how many HO or O scale lawyers it would take to sort out > a scale bankruptcy? Lawyers don't scale. They go by rules similar to those governing inflation. Thus, an HO bankruptcy now would require about 3x the number of lawyers involved in the PC bankruptcy in 1970. -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@juno.com Date: 05 Jun 97 21:33:58 UT Subject: Re: Keystone Crossings Update Content-Length: 868 This could drag on in the courts for years if the law firm of Dewey, Cheatham & Howe were brought in! On 05 Jun 97 11:54:53 UT bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: >> >BTW: Anyone think this is a result of my "NYC merger" joke? >> >> If you factor in the time difference between a model vs the full >> size prototype operating in real time, you can convert approximately >4-6 >> weeks into two years. The Penn Central was born on February >> 1, 1968 and was in bankruptcy by 1970. >> >> This was merely an imitation of prototype practices. Anybody >> know how many HO or O scale lawyers it would take to sort out >> a scale bankruptcy? > >Lawyers don't scale. They go by rules similar to those governing >inflation. >Thus, an HO bankruptcy now would require about 3x the number of >lawyers >involved in the PC bankruptcy in 1970. > >-- >Mark > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 05 Jun 97 22:27:19 UT Subject: NS on Conrail Content-Length: 213 Is it really true? Are we going to see NS on horseshoe? It took me a long time to warm up to Conrail. NS in the former PRR erecting shop where Pennsy steam was built? This cannot be happening!??!!?! HWF !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 05 Jun 97 23:25:50 UT Subject: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] Content-Length: 1174 I have actually seen the 2nd-story window in Cambridge, Mass., with the name of this fictitious law firm painted on in gold letters. I believe it is on the headquarters of the guys who do the car-repair TV show & syndicated newspaper column. > This could drag on in the courts for years if the law firm > of Dewey, Cheatham & Howe were brought in! > > On 05 Jun 97 11:54:53 UT bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > >> >BTW: Anyone think this is a result of my "NYC merger" joke? > >> > >> If you factor in the time difference between a model vs the full > >> size prototype operating in real time, you can convert > >> approximately > >4-6 > >> weeks into two years. The Penn Central was born on February 1, > >> 1968 and was in bankruptcy by 1970. > >> > >> This was merely an imitation of prototype practices. Anybody > >> know how many HO or O scale lawyers it would take to sort out a > >> scale bankruptcy? > > > >Lawyers don't scale. They go by rules similar to those governing > >inflation. Thus, an HO bankruptcy now would require about 3x the > >number of lawyers involved in the PC bankruptcy in 1970. > > > >-- > >Mark > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 05 Jun 97 23:33:39 UT Subject: Re: NS on Conrail, it's a reality TODAY Content-Length: 1016 > Is it really true? Are we going to see NS on horseshoe? It took me > a long time to warm up to Conrail. NS in the former PRR erecting > shop where Pennsy steam was built? This cannot be happening!??!!?! Harry, Not that I'm wild about this either, but get used to it. NS diesels already have worked over Horseshoe in pooled-power arrangements (as have those of ATSF, BN, BNSF, UP, C&NW, SP, SSW, etc.) And in some places, the fun has already started. NS is *now* running two trains a day up the Buffalo Line, often behind *brand new* white-dash-frame-striped GE Dash 9s. As NS draws the noose tighter around Reading & Northern's neck with its agreement with CP Rail to run from Scranton via ex-D&H Sunbury main, then Buffalo Line to Harrisburg and Harrisburg Line to Reading, black will be the default color of choice in this part of the Northeast. Before long, the area around MG and Bennington will resemble the grade up Christiansburg Mountain. Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 05 Jun 97 23:39:27 UT Subject: Re: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] Content-Length: 1878 You could also add the following: Ketcham, Burnhem & Cheatham and the old firm of Shyster & Shyster of Philadelphia. To be fair I do know some honest Attorneys. Even Abraham Lincoln had a railroad as a client in defense of a rail bridge over the Mississippi. I for one am not ready to start an SIG for studying the effects of lawyers on the PRR or any railroad! Anyone else want to pick up that gauntlet? Harry Fitch Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: cupper@ibm.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] > Date: Thursday, June 05, 1997 7:25 PM > > I have actually seen the 2nd-story window in Cambridge, Mass., with the name of > this fictitious law firm painted on in gold letters. I believe it is > on the headquarters of the guys who do the car-repair TV show & > syndicated newspaper column. > > > > > This could drag on in the courts for years if the law firm > > of Dewey, Cheatham & Howe were brought in! > > > > On 05 Jun 97 11:54:53 UT bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > > >> >BTW: Anyone think this is a result of my "NYC merger" joke? > > >> > > >> If you factor in the time difference between a model vs the full > > >> size prototype operating in real time, you can convert > > >> approximately > > >4-6 > > >> weeks into two years. The Penn Central was born on February 1, > > >> 1968 and was in bankruptcy by 1970. > > >> > > >> This was merely an imitation of prototype practices. Anybody > > >> know how many HO or O scale lawyers it would take to sort out a > > >> scale bankruptcy? > > > > > >Lawyers don't scale. They go by rules similar to those governing > > >inflation. Thus, an HO bankruptcy now would require about 3x the > > >number of lawyers involved in the PC bankruptcy in 1970. > > > > > >-- > > >Mark > > > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 05 Jun 97 23:47:07 UT Subject: Re: NS on Conrail, it's a reality TODAY Content-Length: 1490 In the words of the Northern Pacific personnel when they read the news article about the new UP 4-8-8-4 locomotives a-building would become the worlds largest steam locomotives, above their 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone's. TELL ME IT AIN''T SO! ---------- > From: cupper@ibm.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: NS on Conrail, it's a reality TODAY > Date: Thursday, June 05, 1997 7:33 PM > > > Is it really true? Are we going to see NS on horseshoe? It took me > > a long time to warm up to Conrail. NS in the former PRR erecting > > shop where Pennsy steam was built? This cannot be happening!??!!?! > > > Harry, > > Not that I'm wild about this either, but get used to it. NS diesels > already have worked over Horseshoe in pooled-power arrangements (as > have those of ATSF, BN, BNSF, UP, C&NW, SP, SSW, etc.) > > And in some places, the fun has already started. NS is *now* running > two trains a day up the Buffalo Line, often behind *brand new* > white-dash-frame-striped GE Dash 9s. As NS draws the noose tighter > around Reading & Northern's neck with its agreement with CP Rail to > run from Scranton via ex-D&H Sunbury main, then Buffalo Line to > Harrisburg and Harrisburg Line to Reading, black will be the default > color of choice in this part of the Northeast. > > Before long, the area around MG and Bennington will resemble the > grade up Christiansburg Mountain. > > > > Dan Cupper > > Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 06 Jun 97 08:01:48 UT Subject: Re: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] Content-Length: 677 No questions Dan, It's one of those.... this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs type of situations. Of all the things I ever lost, it's my mind that I miss the most! HWF ---------- > From: cupper@ibm.net > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] > Date: Thursday, June 05, 1997 9:21 PM > > > > I for one am not ready to start an SIG for studying > > the effects of lawyers on the PRR or any railroad! > > Anyone else want to pick up that gauntlet? > > > > Harry, I have two words for you: > > > Stuart Saunders. > > > Any questions? > > > Dan Cupper !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 06 Jun 97 11:55:08 UT Subject: Re: PRR, attorneys & MBAs (long) (was Dewey, Cheatham & Howe. . .etc.) Content-Length: 3656 In a message dated 97-06-06 00:40:26 EDT, you write: << You could also add the following: Ketcham, Burnhem & Cheatham and the old firm of Shyster & Shyster of Philadelphia.>> A son of Shyster branched out into accoiunting and joined the firm of : Swindler, Shyster & Gyp. << To be fair I do know some honest Attorneys. Even Abraham Lincoln had a railroad as a client in defense of a rail bridge over the Mississippi.>> An honest attorney is one who wins while representing you and then bills for less than the total judgment << I for one am not ready to start an SIG for studying the effects of lawyers on the PRR or any railroad! Anyone else want to pick up that gauntlet?>> Back on topic, a good move. It's been said that a failing of the PRR was that it was run by engineers rather than attorneys and speculators. There is some merit in the classic MBA's argument that the failure of the PRR to file bankruptcy during the depression depleted its cash reserves (by self-financing new car construction, notably the X31 family of boxcars and the F30 family of flatcars among other activities) and left it saddled with senior debt. However, I cannot dispte that the PRR management did the right thing morally by supporting its workers. As I've said in this space before, I strongly feel that geography (a relatively landlocked service area with a minimum major non-competitive ports) and changes in technoilogy (collapse of the classic late 19th Century coal market in the late 1940s and early 1950s with railroad dieselization and efforts to control air pollution, exhastion of Minnesota's Taconite iron ore, demise of large-scale steel smelting in the valleys of the Upper Ohio, Mahoning and Cuyahoga rivers) probably did more the end the classic Pennsylvania Railroad. Remember that anti-trust regulations forced the PRR board to spin off a number of profitable enterprises. The Confolk Southe. . . Norfolk Southern before absorbing Conrail had a significant PRR hertitage. Much of its trackage through Ohio, Indiana and Illinois had been part of the Norfolk & Western Ry. (notably the Sandusky branch which the PRR willingly sold to N&W in 1964 along with the automatic coal loaders at Sandusky harbor to facillitate the N&W's purchase of the Wabash) and the Wabash Ry., companies in which the PRR had at minimum a controlling interest. Greyhound Bus Lines was a PRR spin off. TTX Corp. (TrailerTrain Corp.) got its start in 1954 as the Pennsy's TrucTrain service. I'd dearly love to peek into the investment portfolio's of PRR board members who approved the merger. I suspect they may have been bulging with N&W , TrailerTrain and Greyhound stock while the NYC was saddled with thousands of miles of duplicative routes (PennCentral had at least four E-W main lines across running from New York to Chicago, two lines from Chicago to Cincinnati, two lines from from Indianapolis to St. Louis, two north-south lines in Western Michigan. This was probably at least double the capacity that the market of the late 1960s could support. The situation east of Pittsburgh was probably just as bad. By this time everyone that the there would a major fall out of duplicative lines. While the replacement of Tuscan and Brunswich with Jade Green and black in 1968 and 1969 was painful fot SPFs, those who made the decisions on Broad Street probably benefitted, from another shade of green though all the deals. This is true especially if their estates manged to hold onto the decendents of their Pennsy shares long enough to benefit from the sale of NS or CSX to UP or BNSF. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 06 Jun 97 12:19:35 UT Subject: Re: PRR, attorneys & MBAs (long) (was Dewey, Cheatham & Howe. . .etc.) Content-Length: 839 From: TVondruska@aol.com > Remember that anti-trust regulations forced the PRR board to spin off a > number of profitable enterprises. Gunnarson's book on the "History of the Northern Central Railway" expends quite a few pages on the incredible profits the line was bringing in from its coal fields. These were east of the Susquehanna River between Harrisburg and Williamsport, and along the Elmira branch. The railroad owned the land, owned the mining operations, owned the transport mechanism (itself), and owned the coal docks (Sodus Point). The anti-trust legislation forced a sell-off of the coal investements in the early 1900s. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 06 Jun 97 17:19:30 UT Subject: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 960 The Mrs. and I are celebrating our 10th anniversary in a week. She asked my what I would like as a gift -- of course being the bill payer I said "nothing"! Not accepting that response, I need to get back to her. I plan to model a 1943 "Liberty Limited" with K4 power. Is Bowser the way to go? If so, they offer it with an "old style" vs. a "modern" front end. Which would be appropriate for 1943? Is there adequate room inside for a DCC decoder? Is the "super detail kit" difficult to install? (I'm all thumbs!) Are there different unit numbers and are they accurate for the class? Is the tender accurate? Who are good mail order sources...RR Depot? Any other thoughts? BTW: HO scale. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 06 Jun 97 18:01:23 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 2433 Jerry, >I plan to model a 1943 "Liberty Limited" with K4 power. Is Bowser the way to >go? Bowser isn't bad, with two caveats 1) You probably want to repower it with a can motor 2) You absolutely want to superdetail it > >If so, they offer it with an "old style" vs. a "modern" front end. Which >would be appropriate for 1943? Old style - the new style solid pilot is post ww2 > >Is there adequate room inside for a DCC decoder? Yes, in the tender, but you will ABSOLUTELY need to repower >Is the "super detail kit" difficult to install? (I'm all thumbs!) Yes and no - you need to work slowly, and carefully. Don't get frustrated, work with lots of light, and the right tools (a good dremel, a pin vice with straight pin to place small amount s of acc, forcepts, etc) I would glue most of the parts rather than soldering (use ACC). Al Westerfield has a great video on assembling his kits, and he shows how to use ACC. >Are there different unit numbers and are they accurate for the class? Don't know >Is the tender accurate? Hmmmm - lots of comments around that most Bowser tenders are not - Don't know myself >Who are good mail order sources...RR Depot? Standard Hobby Supply of NJ - best prices by far >Any other thoughts? > I haven't built any of their kits start to finish yet, but havbing used many parts to superdetail a Mantua 2-6-6-2, I know they are pretty nice. Assembling valve gear is supposed to be a pain, but I loved it - work carefully, use nail punch on a batr of steel or iron to do the rivets, and the results are great! Good Luck Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 06 Jun 97 18:29:13 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 568 From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu >>I plan to model a 1943 "Liberty Limited" with K4 power. Is Bowser the way to >>go? > > Bowser isn't bad, with two caveats > 1) You probably want to repower it with a can motor > 2) You absolutely want to superdetail it What about IHC, which has a can motor...should I consider it? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 06 Jun 97 18:35:07 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 345 Jerry, Bowser's ad in July MR lists a complete K4 kit including superdetail kit, assembled valve gear, back plate & figure with the boiler and cab pre-drilled for superdetail kit. There's some arguement about the joy of assembling everything yourself but having someone else do all the drilling is worth the extra price to me. Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 06 Jun 97 18:51:48 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 2384 >From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu > >>>I plan to model a 1943 "Liberty Limited" with K4 power. Is Bowser the way >to >>>go? >> >> Bowser isn't bad, with two caveats >> 1) You probably want to repower it with a can motor >> 2) You absolutely want to superdetail it > >What about IHC, which has a can motor...should I consider it? >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >"Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! >----------------------------------------------- > Jerry, I have two superdetailed Bowser (actually Penn Line) K4s. I did both of mine in the modern post war configuration with CalScale and Bowser parts rather thasn using the packaged suoperdetail kit. This is mostly because they were done so ling ago the superdetail kit was not offered. I am thrilled with them. When superdetailed they look very good. AND THEY PULL! I don't know what effect on power the can motor would have, butr with the original DC71 I have hauled 20 car trains up 2.5% grades on the club layout without breaking into a sweat (well, maybe a little condensed steam). I don't believe IHC makes a K4. If you mean the Bachmann, I don't any of those but the word that I have heard is they look beautiful but can't pull their own tender! The Bowser tender is primarily an L1 tender. I have seen one rare foto of a K4 with that tender, and it was taken around 1920. Its an old style tender as indicated by the visible side sills. The Kiesel(sp?) tenders built for the K4s did not have that. The Bachmann tender is a PRR 110P84 (I think). This is the most common tender to run behind a K4. Unfortunatly Bachman will not sell parts, including the tender. :-(( For my K4s I kitbashed a nearly correct tender by slicing two segments out of the shell of a Bowswer long distance tender - the one they offer with the I1. This is probably not a good idea for a novice at craftsman kits with you paculiar arrangement of fingers. But don't let that keep you from building a Bowser K4. You will be very happy with the resulting engin and can always go back later and build the correct tender when you confidence, experience asnd thumbs are up to it. BTW do you plan to paint the cars in the Lowey 2-tone scheme? If so you are a brave man. Tell me how you do it. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 06 Jun 97 21:11:20 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 3659 Jerry, I concur with the gentlemen's comments about the Bachmann Model. The K4s that you are referring to in plastic is the Bachmann model not IHC. With the exception of the Pilot height from rail head, wrong classification lights on the post war model and lack of mechanical lubricator under the left running board, they look great. On LEVEL track they are not too bad a runner. Don't even let the poor old girl EVEN THINK there is a GRADE on your railroad or you will need two of them to pull four cars! Yes I own one and have given it the acid test. I wish Bachmann would sell the tenders from their model. I think they would have a market worth the production. (they are already tooled up) PRR fans would snap them up in bunches. Those old Bowser (Penn Line) tenders would look good around the engine house on your layout. If you want to model the late steam era Parkton Local on the NC, the Bachmann is great. You only need two P70's anyway! Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Bowser K4 > Date: Friday, June 06, 1997 2:51 PM > > > > >From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu > > > >>>I plan to model a 1943 "Liberty Limited" with K4 power. Is Bowser the way > >to > >>>go? > >> > >> Bowser isn't bad, with two caveats > >> 1) You probably want to repower it with a can motor > >> 2) You absolutely want to superdetail it > > > >What about IHC, which has a can motor...should I consider it? > >----------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton > >"Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html > >Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > >----------------------------------------------- > > > Jerry, > > I have two superdetailed Bowser (actually Penn Line) K4s. I did both of mine in the modern post war configuration with CalScale and Bowser parts rather thasn using the packaged suoperdetail kit. This is mostly because they were done so ling ago the superdetail kit was not offered. > I am thrilled with them. When superdetailed they look very good. AND THEY PULL! I don't know what effect on power the can motor would have, butr with the original DC71 I have hauled 20 car trains up 2.5% grades on the club layout without breaking into a sweat (well, maybe a little condensed steam). > > I don't believe IHC makes a K4. If you mean the Bachmann, I don't any of those but the word that I have heard is they look beautiful but can't pull their own tender! > > The Bowser tender is primarily an L1 tender. I have seen one rare foto of a K4 with that tender, and it was taken around 1920. Its an old style tender as indicated by the visible side sills. The Kiesel(sp?) tenders built for the K4s did not have that. The Bachmann tender is a PRR 110P84 (I think). This is the most common tender to run behind a K4. Unfortunatly Bachman will not sell parts, including the tender. :-(( > For my K4s I kitbashed a nearly correct tender by slicing two segments out of the shell of a Bowswer long distance tender - the one they offer with the I1. This is probably not a good idea for a novice at craftsman kits with you paculiar arrangement of fingers. But don't let that keep you from building a Bowser K4. You will be very happy with the resulting engin and can always go back later and build the correct tender when you confidence, experience asnd thumbs are up to it. > > BTW do you plan to paint the cars in the Lowey 2-tone scheme? If so you are a brave man. Tell me how you do it. > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 06 Jun 97 21:16:04 UT Subject: Re: NS on Conrail, it's a reality TODAY Content-Length: 471 > white-dash-frame-striped GE Dash 9s. As NS draws the noose tighter > around Reading & Northern's neck with its agreement with CP Rail to > run from Scranton via ex-D&H Sunbury main, then Buffalo Line to > Harrisburg and Harrisburg Line to Reading, black will be the default > color of choice in this part of the Northeast. Dan et al., don't forget that that "ex-D&H Sunbury Main" would, under D&H, be called the "ex-PRR Wilkes Barre Branch". :-) -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 06 Jun 97 21:29:11 UT Subject: my own "crash" Content-Length: 1139 Y'all may have noticed that _my_ web site "crashed" as well, last night ... I dropped by work around 2300 to find my workstation with 5 working windows, and one not working. The one not working was connected to our administrative computer, which also handles email, Web services, name services, etc etc etc. Actually, most of the computer was working, but one device kept timing out, effectively nixing all other work. After a continuous 2-hour phone conference with 2 other people, we got the thing running most of the way. One disk drive (external) refused to work. Web services were back up 0100, but email was not. It was a power supply in that cabinet. HP came out and fixed it this afternoon, and all is well here, too. Luckily, the Web software is on one computer, my site is on yet another, and both are backed up nightly, and separately. Jerry, at some point I will be getting a larger disk for my workstation. In fact, they may be changing my workstation to a RISC machine. At that time, it may be wise for me to mirror your site on my computer, and for you to mirror mine on yours ... -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 06 Jun 97 23:08:35 UT Subject: Pre 1900 PRR Modeling Content-Length: 727 Are there any members of the group who have experience at modeling the PRR pre-1900 ? If so what are your thoughts on such a project? It would seem that few would be doing this and it would allow operations with sharper curves and other modeling comprimises without looking so unrealistic. To me it seems like a complete do it yourself for everything besides track. Is this the case? Are there other resources that I am missing that would allow some flexibility? I have never tried it. I was intrigued by an 1800's NC display in HO at a recent Greenberg Train Show. What about equipment, operational problems, total scratch build? etc Thanks in advance. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com Date: 06 Jun 97 23:10:45 UT Subject: Re: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] Content-Length: 793 Yes, The window is Tom & Ray's offices. However, DC&H is not a fictional law firm as we have been led to believe but the production company which produces "CAR TALK" for National Public Radio. ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.Com Management Services 1-800-484-7673-8270 Michael E. Allen MEAllen@Juno.Com On 06 Jun 97 01:21:36 UT cupper@ibm.net writes: > >> I for one am not ready to start an SIG for studying >> the effects of lawyers on the PRR or any railroad! >> Anyone else want to pick up that gauntlet? > > > >Harry, I have two words for you: > > >Stuart Saunders. > > >Any questions? > > >Dan Cupper > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jun 97 16:18:24 UT Subject: Form 109-K now available at "KC" Content-Length: 691 As I am rebuilding "KC", I am pleased to report the availability of a new booklet in PDF format: Form 109-K, Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders, dated June 2, 1952, provides specs on all diesel, steam, and electric classes thru that date. Also, tenders' specs and what units they were used with. Provided by Dave Wartell. This is available via Web and FTP. The CT1000E has been restored to both Web and FTP as well. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 07 Jun 97 16:59:41 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 884 After reviewing the many responses on the Bowser, I don't know what to do. I always thought Bowser was the way to go for Pennsy steam. Sounds like no problem to add the DCC (in the tender). The July MR ad (p. 29) does offer the K4 kit w/ the super detail kit and more...and predrilled for everything. I prefer something that is RTR, though. I was concerned that I got three responses indicating the need for repowering...one specified a can motor. This is beyond my level of (current) expertise. Is repowering really necessary? I plan to pull 8-10 passenger cars, and I will have up to 3% grades (1" rise in roughly 3' of run). ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 07 Jun 97 17:27:41 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 2793 Jerry, Fear not, I am into my 4th decade and assembled my first Bowser kit (L1) at age 13. Valve gear is not as bad as some think. My problem was I could not determine the insulated side of one of the drivers by looking at it. I learned real fast that they all have to go on the same side. You can use the Bowser motor with standard power supply. The standard gearing is a little noisy, but it will pull a brick down your layout. What satisfies you in the hobby makes the difference. If you build to satisfy others I wish you well. (can't be done) I have Bowser N5 and N5C Cabins. They fit my family man's purse and look reasonably like the real thing. If someone else does not like it, there is room for their outlook in the hobby too. Thats the good part, flexibility. Some folks don't even bother with much scenery for instance because they like to build rolling stock and run it rather than do the scenery thing. Remember the great model builder Mel Thornburgh who built models for MR projects in the early fifties and for the B&O museum? He ran his stuff at home on British prototype track because it appealed to him! I still have a box full of Tyco cabooses that I plan to hack up to turn the roof around to center the cupola so that I can make a poor man's N8 cabin. I still feed a family of five on one income. That cut and paste N8 will look good to me. (some just like to use any equipment, as long as it is lettered for their favorite road) I have no desire to make the cover of MR. I just want to have a little fun. It sounds like you have great plans to model some fun yourself. Best Wishes, Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: jerry@dsop.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: Bowser K4 > Date: Saturday, June 07, 1997 12:59 PM > > > After reviewing the many responses on the Bowser, I don't know what to do. I > always thought Bowser was the way to go for Pennsy steam. > > Sounds like no problem to add the DCC (in the tender). The July MR ad (p. > 29) does offer the K4 kit w/ the super detail kit and more...and predrilled > for everything. I prefer something that is RTR, though. > > I was concerned that I got three responses indicating the need for > repowering...one specified a can motor. This is beyond my level of (current) > expertise. > > Is repowering really necessary? I plan to pull 8-10 passenger cars, and I > will have up to 3% grades (1" rise in roughly 3' of run). > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 08 Jun 97 14:48:22 UT Subject: I can't seem to win... Content-Length: 854 I can't seem to win... Had a break in power this morning. Everything came back up except the modem. I have confirmed that it is not working and will need to get a replacement cross-shipped to me on Monday, June 9. Meanwhile, I am running at 14.4K. I don't recommend accessing this site at that speed, but it is available. Use the temporary URL http://www.dsop. com/britton/railroad/index_temp.html. The only reason I brought the server up at this speed is that mail shoulds still work adequately. (I have kept the FTP site off.) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: 08 Jun 97 15:29:11 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 4524 Jerry, >After reviewing the many responses on the Bowser, I don't know what to do. I >always thought Bowser was the way to go for Pennsy steam. Well, actually, there is some really nice brass out there... >Sounds like no problem to add the DCC (in the tender). The July MR ad (p. >29) does offer the K4 kit w/ the super detail kit and more...and predrilled >for everything. I prefer something that is RTR, though. Bad news - sounds like brass is the only way to go. Before you run screaming from the room, check out Mitchell's (www.mitchels.com) and Peach Creek Shops (http://users.aol.com/peachcreek/peachcreek/peachmr.htm). They are by far the best dealers I know of. I picked up (rather, I should say that my wife bought me...) a very nice, can motor powered prewar K4 for $400 there last summer. >I was concerned that I got three responses indicating the need for >repowering...one specified a can motor. This is beyond my level of (current) >expertise. Why do you say this? How will you ever get to that "level of expertise" if you don't do it? I used to say the same thing, but now, I feel a thrill when I open a kit box, and the contents look like a flat car load - just a stack of lumber!!!! How did I learn? I just did it! My other favorite hobby, homebrewing, has a saying "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew". Apply this in liberal doses! Here are some guidelines: 1) Make sure your wife (the gift giver) knows that this will be a learning experience (pressure to not screw up because it was a present will cause more worry than is healthy) I tell everyone who gives me RR stuff, not to expect it to look like the box, because I will modify it. 2) Read all of the instructions FIRST (this really does help). Read some articles and reviews (like the review last year of the Bowser I-1) for helpful hints. Also look at http://www.arc.umn.edu/~wes/model/HO-steam.html http://www.mcs.net/~weyand/www/tractronics/faq/page4.html#Kits_Bowser for some advice on buildoing these kits. 3) Gather all of the appropriate parts - order superdetail parts directly from Terminal Hobby, after checking their availability on the Walthers web site (www.walthers.com) 4) Gather all of the appropriate tools. 5) ALWAYS work with some photos of the real thing for inspiration (did that thingamajig really go there?) 6) Work slowly and carefully. Drill and test fit, glue, and let dry. Follow the This Old House motto - "measure twice, cut once". Don't try to do toooooo much at one sitting. Work in good light, with few distractions. Glue on three parts a night, and LET THEM DRY! Look at the loco the next morning and say "Wow, that looks good". Show off your progress to your spouse (mine always says "that looks very nice dear"). 7) ADMIT mistakes. If the part don't look right to YOU - redo it. Holes can be pugged, defects filled, parts reordered. It doesn't have to be PERFECT the first time. DO NOT CONTINUE TO WORK IF YOU ARE FRUSTRATED! Take a break. >Is repowering really necessary? I plan to pull 8-10 passenger cars, and I >will have up to 3% grades (1" rise in roughly 3' of run). Part of the reason that Bowser locos can pull down walls is their weight. This will be unaffected by repowering. If you want to use DCC, you MUST repower. The old motors just don't cut it. They also detract from the appearance of the loco with that big ugly worm gear. Several companies make repowering kits for Bowser locos (I'm not sure if one is available for the K4) and those will walk you through the process. If you can install a DCC receiver, you have more than enough skill to repower a loco. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Assistant Professor of Pathobiology, Scientist, and Director, Nucleic Acid Services Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ******************************************************************************** "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" "Evolution is a fact, get used to it" _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 08 Jun 97 19:27:04 UT Subject: Re: NS on Conrail, it's a reality TODAY Content-Length: 1084 In a message dated 97-06-06 00:26:57 EDT, cupper@ibm.net writes: << Not that I'm wild about this either, but get used to it. NS diesels already have worked over Horseshoe in pooled-power arrangements (as have those of ATSF, BN, BNSF, UP, C&NW, SP, SSW, etc.) And in some places, the fun has already started. NS is *now* running two trains a day up the Buffalo Line, often behind *brand new* white-dash-frame-striped GE Dash 9s. As NS draws the noose tighter around Reading & Northern's neck with its agreement with CP Rail to run from Scranton via ex-D&H Sunbury main, then Buffalo Line to Harrisburg and Harrisburg Line to Reading, black will be the default color of choice in this part of the Northeast. Before long, the area around MG and Bennington will resemble the grade up Christiansburg Mountain. >> May already be started. NS has been running several trans a day over the Connemaugh. I haven't determined how they are getting to Conway. I must assume they are traveling the Pittsburgh Division east of Con-Pitt Jct. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 08 Jun 97 20:25:04 UT Subject: 1948 "Detour Map" now at "KC" Content-Length: 1244 You'll want to wait until I get my faster modem back online, but save this e-mail for reference. I just scanned in "Plan 7513, Eastern Region, Eastern Penna. Division, Philadelphia Division Detour Map" (639K), dated Nov 24, 1948. This 22" by 36" map shows the "Detour Routes in Case of Emergency" dispatchers would use. It also indicates engine restrictions on these routes based on curvature, weight, and clearance. Detail of numerous junctions is provided, as are connections with other railroads. The original was provided by Dave Wartel. I had to scan it in 10 pieces and reassemble it in Adobe PhotoShop. Whew! This chart answers a previous discussion on the list: "Did a T1 ever pull the Liberty Ltd south of Harrisburg?" No! This chart shows that the stretch from Wago Junction to York was restricted and did not allow the following: I1, M1, N1, N2, Q1, S1, S2, T1, HH1. If they weren't running K4 all the way west, they probably did so to Harrisburg and then went T1 west. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jun 97 10:25:29 UT Subject: Re: Bowser K4 Content-Length: 2576 Jerry Britton said: >After reviewing the many responses on the Bowser, I don't know what to do. I >always thought Bowser was the way to go for Pennsy steam. > >Sounds like no problem to add the DCC (in the tender). The July MR ad (p. >29) does offer the K4 kit w/ the super detail kit and more...and predrilled >for everything. I prefer something that is RTR, though. > >I was concerned that I got three responses indicating the need for >repowering...one specified a can motor. This is beyond my level of (current) >expertise. > >Is repowering really necessary? I plan to pull 8-10 passenger cars, and I >will have up to 3% grades (1" rise in roughly 3' of run). >----------------------------------------------- Jerry, For 8-10 cars on 3% you need a Bowser. Consider the Bachmann only for your second K4 to double head the train up the hill for effect. Bowser offers the loco RTR. I don't know if the superdetailed version is also available RTR, but even if it is available, it may be more than your thoughtful spouse is willing to think of. Harry mentioned that the Bowser gearing is loud. Unfortunatly true. I have often kiddingly remarked as mine goes by that "I love the sound of steam"!! Of course its going by with a 20 car Juniata up a 2.5% grade - so I'll live with it. About your 1940 Libery Ltd; I was looking in my Wayner "Car Names and Consists" this weekend (picking a name for a Texas Special car for the Penn Texas) and had you in mind. The Liberty seems to have run with 2 12-5 BROOK series sleepers(available from IHC), a 10-5 CASCADE (car sides available from American Ltd), an 18 Roomette CITY OF...(unavailable ;-( ), a 3-1 COLONIAL Lounge (unavailable), and a VIEW series boat tailed observation, also unavailable. While not regularly assigned, the PRR had numerous IMPERIAL 4-4-2s available and I'm sure they wound up in the Libery from time to time. I mention this because they ARE available in the prewar configuration from Eastern Car Works. The diner was undoubtly a modernized D78. You could probably talk your way into using the original version (the protection car - right?). Its available from Bachmann (painted RTR with good trucks and interiors) or from ECW (unpainted kit only with trucks not worth anything). Harry, I did a Tyco conversion to an N8 many years ago. Its a good kitbash. The results are very close. Two things to remeber: fill the small window, the N8 had only the 2 big windows, change the steps to the cast ladder version so popular on PRR cabin cars. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jun 97 10:44:40 UT Subject: Liberty Limited Consist (Was Bowser K4) Content-Length: 1994 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > About your 1940 Libery Ltd; I was looking in my Wayner "Car Names and Consists" this weekend (picking a > name for a Texas Special car for the Penn Texas) and had you in mind. The Liberty seems to have run with 2 12-5 > BROOK series sleepers(available from IHC), a 10-5 CASCADE (car sides available from American Ltd), an 18 > Roomette CITY OF...(unavailable ;-( ), a 3-1 COLONIAL Lounge (unavailable), and a VIEW series boat tailed > observation, also unavailable. > >While not regularly assigned, the PRR had numerous IMPERIAL 4-4-2s available and I'm sure they wound up in > the Libery from time to time. I mention this because they ARE available in the prewar configuration from Eastern > Car I have seen the Wayner book, and it is helpful. However, I had quoted the 1943 Liberty Ltd. One of the files I lost was a PDF I had made of a (Nov. 1979, I think) Rails Northeast article on the Liberty Ltd. I will be reborrowing the original in a week or so. The article provided consist reports from about a dozen versions of this train over the years. What intrigued me about modeling the 1943 version is that it ran in two sections. Based on my model researching before "the crash", there are more models available to model that year than there were per Wayner's 1940 report. (Wayner's report excels in that it reports car numbers/names whereas the Rails Northeast article quotes models only.) I also plan a 1953 Liberty Limited powered by the forthcoming P2K E7 units (due late '97/early '98). Regarding Rails Northeast, I'd like to post relevant articles in PDF format, but the publisher has evaded location for "permissions". That leaves copyright to the original authors, I guess, which would be a formidable task. 8-( --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 09 Jun 97 11:17:07 UT Subject: "KC" modem update Content-Length: 281 New (free replacement) modem is on the way...should arrive Tuesday or, at latest, Wednesday. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Da72jmk@aol.com Date: 09 Jun 97 11:47:45 UT Subject: Re: Pre 1900 PRR Modeling Content-Length: 875 << hfitch@maranatha.net wrote: Are there any members of the group who have experience at modeling the PRR pre-1900 ? If so what are your thoughts on such a project? It would seem that few would be doing this and it would allow operations with sharper curves and other modeling comprimises without looking so unrealistic. >> There was a series of article in Railroad Model Craftsman about this topic recently (maybe about the beginning of the year?) There were quite a few ideas for kitbashing appropriate equipment. Mantua makes an E3 that would be appropriate for the late 1800's. I believe that someone imported the H3 in brass, and maybe some of the earlier class D Americans. Westerfield had a limited run of a wood PRR passenger train. I highly recommend the Alexander book _Along the Mainline_ for detail photos and general inspiration. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jun 97 16:53:24 UT Subject: Penn Station Content-Length: 448 I just recieved my copy of the recent reprinting of "The Late Great Pennsylvania Station". It has a foto I have looked for for a long time showing how the open area at the west end of the concourse was covered over in later years. The lower (arrival)level was extended. All of the fotos of the station when new show this area open down to the tracks. When was this covered over? Was it when the AC overhead went in? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 09 Jun 97 17:02:14 UT Subject: Red roofs Content-Length: 589 PRR steamers had their roofs, window frames , and tender decks painted red. At least some of them. Color fotos (being late in the history of photography and the PRR) tend to show the engines as all black. Or was this merely because the red was "weathered"? Did the PRR ever stop using the red paint. Someone (I don't recall who) suggested that the engines in the east were painted all black in later years but that the western PRR continued with the red roofs etc until the end of steam. Should my Eastern Region early 50s engine roofs be red or black? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 09 Jun 97 17:20:54 UT Subject: Re: Penn Station Content-Length: 834 > I just recieved my copy of the recent reprinting of "The Late Great > Pennsylvania Station". > It has a foto I have looked for for a long time showing how the open area > at the west end of the concourse was covered over in later years. The > lower (arrival)level was extended. All of the fotos of the station when > new show this area open down to the tracks. When was this covered over? > Was it when the AC overhead went in? It was mentioned only briefly in the book. The area was covered to allow for more room on the concourse floor. It had nothing to do with AC, so far as I recall. Of interest: Lorraine Diehl runs a "Late Great Penn. Station" tour, last Monday of every month, at the "modern" Penn Station. Details on her web site (to which you can get from "links.html" on my site ...) -- Mark !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: relliott@mail.telis.org Date: 09 Jun 97 21:10:19 UT Subject: PRR K4s streamlined loco Content-Length: 362 Hello, I'm looking for information on the 1938 (or is it '36) PRR K4s streamilned pacific that was designed by Ray Loewy. I would really like to get a hold of some plans to get some dimensional data. Also what kind of passenger cars did it run with? Has anyone produced it in either HO or N scale? Thanks, Roger Elliott relliott.telis@mail.telis.org !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jun 97 07:47:01 UT Subject: NS "Feel Good" ads Content-Length: 471 You know Norfolk Southern's coming to the area when your local evening and morning news (WHTM TV-27, ABC, Harrisburg) airs NS "feel good" ads! The ads are obviously a PR campaign to get locals used to seeing NS since they are so used to Conrail. Actually, a pretty effective ad. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 10 Jun 97 08:54:01 UT Subject: Kato GP35? Content-Length: 253 Hey, An opportunity to pick up an undec. Kato GP35 phase 1b has come up, but since the railroads and the builders don't use "phases" I don't know what phase is appropriate if I want to model the Pennsy's units. Anyone know? Thanks... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 10 Jun 97 09:32:01 UT Subject: Re: PRR K4s streamlined loco Content-Length: 546 In a message dated 97-06-10 06:33:25 EDT, you write: << streamilned pacific that was designed by Ray Loewy. I would really like to get a hold of some plans to get some dimensional data. Also what kind of passenger cars did it run with? Has anyone produced it in either HO or N scale? Thanks, Roger Elliott relliott.telis@mail.telis.org >> This locomotive was produced by ALCO models in brass about 10 years ago. It is occassionally available from used brass dealers. Check with The Caboose, Mitchell's etc. Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TVondruska@aol.com Date: 10 Jun 97 11:08:25 UT Subject: N8 modeling in plastic & brass (was Re: Bowser K4) Content-Length: 1461 In a message dated 97-06-09 10:34:31 EDT, you write: << Harry, I did a Tyco conversion to an N8 many years ago. Its a good kitbash. The results are very close. Two things to remeber: fill the small window, the N8 had only the 2 big windows, change the steps to the cast ladder version so popular on PRR cabin cars. regards Andy Miller >> I thoght the same thing about the steps but it just ain't so. The AAR casting was not used on the N8. The steps are fabricated as part of the end platform. An article on the kitbash in the Nov. 1991 Mainline Modeler describes altering the Tyco steps into a rough approimization but it was rather fragile and I wasn't satisfied with the results. When I try again, I'll probably fabricate the entire platform. I replaced the thick cast on "ears" on either of the platform with..010 styrene cut to shape and guled onto a .012 brass wire and got a durable and more realistic appearance of the side railings on the platforms Also the cuts on the Tyco cabeese bodies described in the MM article result in the proper and near exact location of the side windows on the finished cabin body but the cast on rivets are all wrong. It'd be nice if the N8 was welded but it ain't Since we're talking about the N8, last winter I picked the Overland brass and wood N8 kit. I still haven't started it. Guess I'm a bit imtimidated. Has anyone out there built this kit. Any advice, tips? Tom V. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: railpix@philly.infi.net Date: 10 Jun 97 11:33:11 UT Subject: Annual Report 1960 Content-Length: 892 Hello all; I now have on my railcard page the cover of the 1960 PRR Annual Report. Its a nice color image with a GG1 on the High Line. Enjoy !! Stan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----RAILPIX PAGE---------- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** ---------Voice Mail-- 1-888-947-8542 --------------- ---New Free RAILPIX RAILCARD Page----- ---{Send Free RailCards}--- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/cards.html *************************************** Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel, is a train coming the other way. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: schlund@hsq.com Date: 10 Jun 97 12:15:00 UT Subject: Streamlined K4 modeling Content-Length: 1111 To Roger Elliott and Members of group Roger wrote: "I'm looking for information on the 1938 (or is it '36) PRR K4s streamilned pacific that was designed by Ray Loewy. I would really like to get a hold of some plans to get some dimensional data. Also what kind of passenger cars did it run with? Has anyone produced it in either HO or N scale? Thanks, Roger Elliott relliott.telis@mail.telis.org" Plans for the streamlined K4 are in the Kalmbach Steam Cyclopedia. I forget the exact title, but it is a compilation of all the Kalmbach steam loco drawings in one book. If you cannot find it, I photocopied the page several years back, and could in turn mail you a photocopy of that. It was also made in N scale a couple of years back, by the same importer who imported "normal" K4's at the same time. Don't remember which one, but if you ask around at stores which specialize in N scale (there are quite a few now) you should be able to get more details. Hope that helps... Claus Schlund (modeling steam-era PRR in N scale) San Francisco, CA !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 10 Jun 97 12:17:15 UT Subject: RE: PRR K4s streamlined loco Content-Length: 1067 >Hello, >I'm looking for information on the 1938 (or is it '36) PRR K4s >streamilned pacific that was designed by Ray Loewy. I would really like >to get a hold of some plans to get some dimensional data. Also what >kind of passenger cars did it run with? Has anyone produced it in >either HO or N scale? >Thanks, >Roger Elliott >relliott.telis@mail.telis.org > - ---- Roger, I just finished talking with Jerry Britton re building a WWII Liberty Ltd. I suggested this consist in HO: B-60 baggage Bethlehem Car Works BM70? RPO Baggage IHC 12-5 BROOK sleeper IHC (2 cars) 10-5 CASCADE sleeper American Ltd sides, ECW core kit body D78 Diner Bachmann 4-4-2 IMPERIAL sleeperECW Obs nothing avalable (try the ECW NYC car for a boat-tail obs and paint it FOM named FEDERAL VIEW) Of course, for more general service you can include lots of Bachmann P70s, the beautiful Bethlehem Car Works M70b RPO, and the new Red Caboose X29s in passenger service. Regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jun 97 13:12:48 UT Subject: Do these companies have Web sites? Content-Length: 312 Has anyone found Web sites for any of these companies: IHC Red Caboose Bethlehem Car Works Bachman Life Like Thanks. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jun 97 13:18:20 UT Subject: Modeling late 1800s Content-Length: 1811 Someone expressed an interest in modeling the PRR in the late 1800s. Westerfield just announced the following new cars: 9100 YELLOW KID 6-CAR SET - COMBINE ERAS: 90s 00s MODELS: Pennsylvania Limited of 1899- 1902 in the only accurate set ever offered. ROADS: PRR 9100 =A0- Price: $350.00 The full vestibule Pullman Palace cars debuted at the Columbian Expositio= n in 1893. Until the advent of all-steel cars the were the epitome of luxurious travel. The Pennsylvania Limited was inaugurated in the 1880's. In 1892 narrow vestibule cars were placed i= n service. In 1895 they were supplanted by full vestibule cars. In 1898 the cream and green color scheme was chosen. In 1899 the cars were refurbished with oval windows and a red letterboard, creating the famous color scheme. The colors were used until late 1902 when the Pennsylvania Special became the top train on the railroad. These kits include complete roof, underbody and interior detail, trucks, couplers, diaphragms, decals, etc. plus a history of the cars. They are the most complete and accurate passenger cars ever offered in any scale. Each car is physically different to match the prototypes. Decals covers every name of the cars used in the four identical trains. The set also includes a 28-page history of the train with photos, general arrangements, broshure reproductions, maps, consists, timetables and contemporary articles. An 12x18" art print of Larry Fisher'= s famous painting of The Yellow Kid, especially revised by Mr. Fisher to match our research, is included. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 10 Jun 97 13:19:30 UT Subject: Re: Do these companies have Web sites? Content-Length: 69 www.bachmann.com is bachmann, but there's nothing there yet -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 10 Jun 97 13:48:03 UT Subject: Re: Do these companies have Web sites? Content-Length: 1044 From: shadow@dementia.org > www.bachmann.com is bachmann, but there's nothing there yet I don't think this is "our" Bachmann. Did a "WhoIs" and got the following information: Whois Query Results ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dave Bachmann BACHMANN-DOM 704 Forest Trail Cedar Park, TX 48613 Domain Name: BACHMANN.COM Domain Status: On Hold Administrative Contact: Raisch, Robert RR298 raisch@INTERNET.COM (617) 547-4731 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Love, William J. WJL4 love@INTERNET.COM (617) 547-4731 Record last updated on 13-Apr-97. Record created on 17-Aug-93. Database last updated on 10-Jun-97 04:43:46 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS.INTERNET.COM 140.186.90.110 NIC.CENT.NET 140.186.1.4 --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 10 Jun 97 14:54:13 UT Subject: Re: Do these companies have Web sites? Content-Length: 284 > > From: shadow@dementia.org > > > www.bachmann.com is bachmann, but there's nothing there yet > > I don't think this is "our" Bachmann. Did a "WhoIs" and got the following > information: See what I get for not checking with whois? bachmanninc.com; Sorry -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 10 Jun 97 19:34:46 UT Subject: Easier access to "KC" Content-Length: 869 My Web site (still running at 14.4 until Wednesday or so) now has an easier URL. The existing URL will remain, as this is the URL all the search engines have had since last September. This URL is http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html . I now have the capability to serve virtual domains. I have created a virtual host which points to the same directory and serves the same files. The new URL is http://prr.dsop.com . This is much easier to remember. You may use either URL. Let me know if you encounter any problems. NOTE: The virtual URL requires that your browser sends the "host" header. Most do. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 10 Jun 97 20:56:08 UT Subject: Re: NS "Feel Good" ads Content-Length: 931 Thanks for the news Jerry, I'll try not to shoot the messenger because of the message. But as for NS taking in a large chunk of ex PRR and planting their little selves right smack dab in Altoona. This to me is like herding swine in the temple in Jerusalem. ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com > To: Members of group > Subject: NS "Feel Good" ads > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 3:47 AM > > > You know Norfolk Southern's coming to the area when your local evening and > morning news (WHTM TV-27, ABC, Harrisburg) airs NS "feel good" ads! > > The ads are obviously a PR campaign to get locals used to seeing NS since > they are so used to Conrail. Actually, a pretty effective ad. > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: 10 Jun 97 21:25:48 UT Subject: Re: Dewey Cheatham & Howe [off topic . . . *way* off topic] Content-Length: 274 In a message dated 97-06-06 08:34:51 EDT, you write: << > I for one am not ready to start an SIG for studying > the effects of lawyers on the PRR or any railroad! > Anyone else want to pick up that gauntlet? >> Oh no, not the gauntlet/gantlet thread again!!!! !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 11 Jun 97 05:50:01 UT Subject: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 509 Today I saw a list of the car names to be assigned to the new Amtrak Viewliner sleepers. Among the names are: Mountain View Tower View Metropolitan View Skyline View Of course, these were observation cars which usually graced the Broadway Limited. I believe the first two were 1948 cars, the latter two were Fleet of Modernism cars. My question: are the Amtrak folks purposely dragging the memory of the PRR through the mud? Or are they just picking nice-sounding names? Rich Copeland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 11 Jun 97 06:20:31 UT Subject: Re: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 938 Rich, It's all a plot. PC, Amtrak, Conrail............ but these folks (NS) we're dealing with now go back and get their golf shoes on before they kick you while your down. ( in a smiling and courteous manner of course) ---------- > From: PRRMAN@aol.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? > Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 1:50 AM > > Today I saw a list of the car names to be assigned to the > new Amtrak Viewliner sleepers. Among the names are: > > Mountain View > Tower View > Metropolitan View > Skyline View > > Of course, these were observation cars which usually graced > the Broadway Limited. I believe the first two were 1948 cars, the > latter two were Fleet of Modernism cars. > > My question: are the Amtrak folks purposely dragging the memory of the > PRR through the mud? Or are they just picking nice-sounding names? > > Rich Copeland > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 11 Jun 97 06:20:51 UT Subject: Re: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 1287 From: PRRMAN@aol.com > Today I saw a list of the car names to be assigned to the > new Amtrak Viewliner sleepers. Among the names are: > > Mountain View > Tower View > Metropolitan View > Skyline View > > Of course, these were observation cars which usually graced > the Broadway Limited. I believe the first two were 1948 cars, the > latter two were Fleet of Modernism cars. > > My question: are the Amtrak folks purposely dragging the memory of the > PRR through the mud? Or are they just picking nice-sounding names? When Amtrak announced the return of the "Broadway Limited" last year, they indicated in their press release that they wanted to return the "flavor" of the "BL" was well. They indicated that the train would receive all new cars, for one thing. I don't know if they continued to use these names until the "B'Way" was cancelled by them originally, and now they are reappearing, or if there was a much longer lapse. I guess I don't mind the concept, but perhaps a "II" suffix would be in order! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 11 Jun 97 07:08:19 UT Subject: Liberty Limited Rides Again Content-Length: 618 This Saturday my wife and I are riding the Liberty Limited dinner train out of Stewartstown, Pa. The four hour event combines dinner with a theater production..."Murder on the Limited". Looking forward to it. The train rides on the old Northern Central line, but I don't know how far (I think around 21 miles) and through what towns. Does anyone know the stretch of track involved and what sites I should look for en-route? --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 11 Jun 97 08:36:59 UT Subject: PRR Flat Car FD2 470245 in Altoona Content-Length: 502 Greetings to the group, Conrail 766163, former PRR FD2 class flat car 470245 (the BIG one), is in Altoona. It is on the track leading to the museum across from the station. The 12th Street foot bridge gives an excellent view. Don't know if it now belongs to the museum. I'll find out and let the group know. For those with a latent NYC interest, it is coupled to the NYC's "Elkhart Hook" derrick. The derrick and its idler/boom tender do belong to the museum. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 11 Jun 97 08:38:48 UT Subject: Erie to Emporium Passenger Trains Content-Length: 2443 Greetings to the group, Passenger service survived between Erie and Emporium until March 27, 1967 (See page 54 of Yanosey's _Pennsy Diesel Years 3_). Trains 580 and 581 were the last two passenger trains. Train 581 was known as the Northern express. Train 580 was known as the Southern Express. Trains 580 and 581 ran between Erie and Emporium. At Emporium they combined/split with trains 574 and 575. Trains 574 and 575 were known as the Dominion Express. The Dominion Express ran between Washington and Buffalo with connecting service to Toronto. According to their mid 50s schedule, the Dominion/Northern Express arrived at Renovo at 3:00 AM. It made Emporium by 4:04. About 30 minutes were allocated for switching the train. The Dominion, Train 575, continued on to Buffalo. The Northern Express originating as train 581 at Emporium. Both trains left Emporium at 4:40 AM. The Northern Express reached Erie at 10:20 AM. The Dominion/Southern Express left Erie at 6:15 PM. It made Emporium by 11:30 PM. Again, about 30 minutes were allocated for switching. Now combined with Train 574, it left Emporium at 12:08 AM. It made Renovo by 1:30 AM. The April 1956 _Official Guide..._ lists the typical make up of the trains, north of Williamsport, as follows: 575/581 Dominion/Northern Express Lounge Car Washington - Buffalo 8 S Buffet Sleeping Cars Philly - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB Washington - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB to 581 Washington - Erie 10 S 3 DB to 581 NYC - Erie 8S 5 DB from Train #1 to 581 NYC - Erie 10 S 3 DB from Train #1 NYC - Emporium Cafe Car to 581 Washington - Erie Coaches Washington - Buffalo to 581 Philly - Erie from Train 615 574/580 Dominion/Souther Express Lounge Car Buffalo - Washington 8 S Buffet Sleeping Cars Buffalo - Philly 10 s 5 DB Buffalo - Washington 10 S 5 DB from 580 Erie - Washington 10 S 3 DB from 580 Erie - NYC 8 S 5 DB via train #20 from 580 Erie - NYC 10 S 3 DB via Train #20 Cafe Car from 580 Erie - Harrisburg Coaches Buffalo - Washington Buffalo - Philly via Train #36 from 580 Erie - Harrisburg Hope this helps the folks modeling the P&E between Emporium and Erie. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 11 Jun 97 08:51:08 UT Subject: Re: NS "Feel Good" ads Content-Length: 918 Speaking of this, two nights ago some friends of mine and I headed out to see a Ringling Brothers/Barnum and Bailey Circus train that was coming through. When we got as far east as Greensburg a bunch of people were waiting so we stopped (it was going to be there or Latrobe) and went up on the south platform (which is closed because they're finally renovating the station there, but that's another story). In about 10 minutes, there it came. Later we headed back west, and saw the Conrail Office Car Special heading west past Ardara (just after dusk), and then headed to downtown Pittsburgh to watch both the Capitol and the Three Rivers arrive. The question in all of this that's actually related to the subject is that after the OCS passed I asked my friend if he knew who was getting it, and we discussed such things most of the way to town from there. Anyone know who's getting the OCS? -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 11 Jun 97 09:13:17 UT Subject: RE: Liberty Limited Rides Again Content-Length: 703 >This Saturday my wife and I are riding the Liberty Limited dinner train out >of Stewartstown, Pa. The four hour event combines dinner with a theater >production..."Murder on the Limited". Looking forward to it. > >The train rides on the old Northern Central line, but I don't know how far >(I think around 21 miles) and through what towns. Does anyone know the >stretch of track involved and what sites I should look for en-route? >--------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton - ----- Must be terribly distracting. Here you ar trying to look out the window at the former PRR and not missm a detail; and someone is commiting muder at your table! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 11 Jun 97 09:21:53 UT Subject: Re: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 779 > Today I saw a list of the car names to be assigned to the > new Amtrak Viewliner sleepers. Among the names are: > > Mountain View > Tower View > Metropolitan View > Skyline View > > Of course, these were observation cars which usually graced > the Broadway Limited. I believe the first two were 1948 cars, the > latter two were Fleet of Modernism cars. > > My question: are the Amtrak folks purposely dragging the memory of the > PRR through the mud? Or are they just picking nice-sounding names? I think it's their tribute to the PRR. Many ex-PRR guys remained and work for Amtrak. SEPTA, from my _in_formal experience, tended to keep more RDG guys. And Conrail is mixed, with perhaps a bit more NYC than PRR. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 11 Jun 97 09:25:49 UT Subject: RE: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 664 I think they "VIEW" it as an honor. I suppose we should be happy that they recocnize their PRR heritage. regards Andy Miller >Today I saw a list of the car names to be assigned to the >new Amtrak Viewliner sleepers. Among the names are: > >Mountain View >Tower View >Metropolitan View >Skyline View > >Of course, these were observation cars which usually graced >the Broadway Limited. I believe the first two were 1948 cars, the >latter two were Fleet of Modernism cars. > >My question: are the Amtrak folks purposely dragging the memory of the >PRR through the mud? Or are they just picking nice-sounding names? > >Rich Copeland > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 11 Jun 97 09:28:06 UT Subject: Re: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 337 >I guess I don't mind the concept, but perhaps a "II" suffix would be in >order! >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >----------------------------------------------- > How about a bronze plaque in the vestibule informing the uneducated pubic of the August origin of the name? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 11 Jun 97 09:44:59 UT Subject: RE: Erie to Emporium Passenger Trains Content-Length: 1642 Interesting. The Cafe car (I presume a PC70 cafe-coach) went from Washiongton to Erie and then from Erie to HARRISBURG. How did it get back to Washington? Or did the PRR scrap the cars in Haarisburg and buy or build new ones in Washington? :-) regards Andy Miller BTW were those really 10s-5db cars in 575/581? Or is that a type for 8S-5db ? - ------------ >typical make up of the trains, >north of Williamsport, as follows: > >575/581 Dominion/Northern Express > >Lounge Car Washington - Buffalo 8 S Buffet > >Sleeping Cars Philly - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB > Washington - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB >to 581 Washington - Erie 10 S 3 DB >to 581 NYC - Erie 8S 5 DB from Train #1 >to 581 NYC - Erie 10 S 3 DB from Train #1 > NYC - Emporium > >Cafe Car to 581 Washington - Erie > >Coaches Washington - Buffalo >to 581 Philly - Erie from Train 615 > >574/580 Dominion/Souther Express > >Lounge Car Buffalo - Washington 8 S Buffet > >Sleeping Cars Buffalo - Philly 10 s 5 DB > Buffalo - Washington 10 S 5 DB >from 580 Erie - Washington 10 S 3 DB >from 580 Erie - NYC 8 S 5 DB via train #20 >from 580 Erie - NYC 10 S 3 DB via Train #20 > >Cafe Car from 580 Erie - Harrisburg > >Coaches Buffalo - Washington > Buffalo - Philly via Train #36 >from 580 Erie - Harrisburg > >Hope this helps the folks modeling the P&E between Emporium and Erie. > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: 11 Jun 97 09:57:18 UT Subject: Re: Sacrilege? Or ignorance? Content-Length: 512 In a message dated 97-06-11 06:27:16 EDT, you write: << My question: are the Amtrak folks purposely dragging the memory of the PRR through the mud? Or are they just picking nice-sounding names? >> Amatrak has never had an original idea. so what do you think? Obviously, they are attempting to imply that they are duplicating the service of the PRR on the Broadway. That level of service and Amtrak are contradictory terms. If these are copyrighted names, how is Amtrak using them? Rich Orr !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 11 Jun 97 21:19:55 UT Subject: Odd Consist at York PA Content-Length: 621 While passing through the York PA area this morning I saw two CR road units moving two EMD switchers (one black) and a reddish colored baggage car through the yards under I-83. The CR units were pulling baggage car with the two switchers behind. Nothing else was coupled to them at the time of the spotting. To have slowed or stopped for a better look would have been courting disaster. (film at eleven about I-83 crash involving rail nut) When passing south in the evening there was no sign of them from what I could see. Anybody know what this was? Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 12 Jun 97 06:49:01 UT Subject: Re: Odd Consist at York PA Content-Length: 1149 From: hfitch@maranatha.net >While passing through the York PA area > this morning I saw two CR road units moving > two EMD switchers (one black) and a reddish colored > baggage car through the yards under I-83. > > The CR units were pulling baggage car with the > two switchers behind. Nothing else was coupled > to them at the time of the spotting. To have slowed > or stopped for a better look would have been courting > disaster. (film at eleven about I-83 crash involving rail nut) > > When passing south in the evening there was no > sign of them from what I could see. > > Anybody know what this was? Were they moving north or south? If north, they could have been going north to a bridge to cross to the RR Museum of Pa in Strasburg. If south, they could be going to the Liberty Limited in Stewartstown. I'm riding the Limited this Saturday; I'll check for new arrivals. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: maxrail@worldnet.att.net Date: 12 Jun 97 09:57:57 UT Subject: Camden & Amboy-Station plan Content-Length: 304 Hi everyone, Many of the stations on the Camden and Amboy/Pemberton & Hightstown/Camden & Burlington County were all of the same general design. Does anyone have a scale drawing of any of these stations? Richard F. Makse maxrail@worldnet.att.net rfmakse@lirr.org Member, HTML Writers Guild !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 12 Jun 97 10:12:55 UT Subject: Red Roofs Content-Length: 589 PRR steamers had their roofs, window frames , and tender decks painted red. At least some of them. Color fotos (being late in the history of photography and the PRR) tend to show the engines as all black. Or was this merely because the red was "weathered"? Did the PRR ever stop using the red paint? Someone (I don't recall who) suggested that the engines in the east were painted all black in later years but that the western PRR continued with the red roofs etc until the end of steam. Should my Eastern Region early 50s engine roofs be red or black? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: drm6@psu.edu Date: 12 Jun 97 11:22:33 UT Subject: RE: Erie to Emporium Passenger Trains Content-Length: 2467 Greetings to Andy and the group, I tried to follow the connections 574 had at Harrisburg. None of the trains listed indicated a cafe car except Train 636 which didn't go to Washington. I suspect that the cafe car was dead headed from Harrisburg to Washington for 575 of the following day. Both the April 1956 _Official Guide..._ and a PRR April 1956 timetable listed the cars as 10 S 5 DB. In the PRR timetable there was no description of a section. Wasn't a section one of those curtained open sleeping things? Weren't sections gone by the 50s? Did they use the term section and roomette interchangably? The timetable listed some of the cars as 10S 5 DB and others 10 R 5 DB. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA At 09:44 AM 6/11/97 UT, you wrote: >Interesting. The Cafe car (I presume a PC70 cafe-coach) went from Washiongton to Erie and then from Erie to HARRISBURG. How did it get back to Washington? >Or did the PRR scrap the cars in Haarisburg and buy or build new ones in Washington? :-) > >regards >Andy Miller > >BTW were those really 10s-5db cars in 575/581? Or is that a type for 8S-5db ? >- ------------ >>typical make up of the trains, >>north of Williamsport, as follows: >> >>575/581 Dominion/Northern Express >> >>Lounge Car Washington - Buffalo 8 S Buffet >> >>Sleeping Cars Philly - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB >> Washington - Buffalo 10 S 5 DB >>to 581 Washington - Erie 10 S 3 DB >>to 581 NYC - Erie 8S 5 DB from Train #1 >>to 581 NYC - Erie 10 S 3 DB from Train #1 >> NYC - Emporium >> >>Cafe Car to 581 Washington - Erie >> >>Coaches Washington - Buffalo >>to 581 Philly - Erie from Train 615 >> >>574/580 Dominion/Souther Express >> >>Lounge Car Buffalo - Washington 8 S Buffet >> >>Sleeping Cars Buffalo - Philly 10 s 5 DB >> Buffalo - Washington 10 S 5 DB >>from 580 Erie - Washington 10 S 3 DB >>from 580 Erie - NYC 8 S 5 DB via train #20 >>from 580 Erie - NYC 10 S 3 DB via Train #20 >> >>Cafe Car from 580 Erie - Harrisburg >> >>Coaches Buffalo - Washington >> Buffalo - Philly via Train #36 >>from 580 Erie - Harrisburg >> >>Hope this helps the folks modeling the P&E between Emporium and Erie. >> >>Drew R. McGhee >>Altoona, PA >> >> > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 12 Jun 97 11:54:27 UT Subject: RE: Erie to Emporium Passenger Trains Content-Length: 1466 >>Andy Miller (me) asked: >> >>were those really 10s-5db cars in 575/581? Or is that a type for 8S-5db ? >Greetings to Andy and the group, - -------- > >Both the April 1956 _Official Guide..._ and a PRR April 1956 timetable >listed the cars as 10 S 5 DB. In the PRR timetable there was no description >of a section. Wasn't a section one of those curtained open sleeping things? >Weren't sections gone by the 50s? Did they use the term section and >roomette interchangably? The timetable listed some of the cars as 10S 5 DB >and others 10 R 5 DB. > >Drew R. McGhee >Altoona, PA > - ------ Yes, sections were "those curtained open sleeping things". One section took the same space as one roomette but accomodated two passengers> Sections were still very poular in the eary 50s. They were the cheapest sleeping accomodations and many companies (including UncleSam) would only reimburse a business traveller for the cost of a section lower berth. The D&RGW actuially built brand new, Budd fluted, streamlined 14 section sleepers (ALPINE series)! Both 10rmt 5dbr (CASCADE series -prewar streamlined) and 8sec 5dbr(POPLAR series - HW) were common configurations in the 50s. But since section cars required large rest rooms at the ends of each car since sections had no private toilet facilities, and since a section and a roomette took the same amount of floor space, a 10sec 5dbr car would have to be about 95 feet long!! Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: railpix@philly.infi.net Date: 12 Jun 97 17:07:43 UT Subject: SITE-UPDATE Content-Length: 1075 Hello all stations; I have added the following new pictures to my site; -Amtrak GP38 #722 -Amtrak TLM -- -Amtrak CF7 #586 -D+H SW8 #6702 -Amtrak 944 in Northeast Direct Paint -Last Miss America train on Amtrak -Atlantic City NJ Rail Terminal ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----RAILPIX PAGE---------- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/railpix.html ****************************************************** ---------Voice Mail-- 1-888-947-8542 --------------- ---New Free RAILPIX RAILCARD Page----- ---{Send Free RailCards}--- http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1030/cards.html *************************************** Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel, is a train coming the other way. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 13 Jun 97 13:33:30 UT Subject: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 857 In the recent issue of "The Telegraph", published by 1 Railroad Avenue, they state: > Bachmann will also be rerunning their HO Spectrum line of passenger > cars. New numbers and car names will be available. PRR fans will have > both the regular and H.G. (High Gloss) paint schemes - they are doing > both. The price will be higher but no firm word yet on availability. Is the difference between "regular" and "high gloss" a reference to the model's finish only, or is it a reference to a prototype PRR paint job? Which would I want? BTW: The full announcement can be found at http://prr.dsop.com/model/index.html along with other HO modeling news. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 13 Jun 97 14:14:23 UT Subject: RE: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 773 . . . >> Bachmann will also be rerunning their HO Spectrum line of passenger >> cars. New numbers and car names will be available. PRR fans will have >> both the regular and H.G. (High Gloss) paint schemes - they are doing >> both. . . . >Is the difference between "regular" and "high gloss" a reference to the >model's finish only, or is it a reference to a prototype PRR paint job? >Which would I want? > >Jerry Britton, - ------- I believe the "regular" finish is the post war - Tuscan body, deluxe 3-stripe, black trucks; the "high gloss" finish is the 1920 scheme with a Tuscan body, the gold stripes outlined in black and the green trucks. This is from casual observstion and memory. I don't own any of either. regards, Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 13 Jun 97 14:44:40 UT Subject: RE: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1024 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > >> Bachmann will also be rerunning their HO Spectrum line of passenger > >> cars. New numbers and car names will be available. PRR fans will have > >> both the regular and H.G. (High Gloss) paint schemes - they are doing > >> both. . . . > > > >Is the difference between "regular" and "high gloss" a reference to the > >model's finish only, or is it a reference to a prototype PRR paint job? > >Which would I want? > > I believe the "regular" finish is the post war - Tuscan body, deluxe 3-stripe, black trucks; the "high gloss" finish > is the 1920 scheme with a Tuscan body, the gold stripes outlined in black and the green trucks. Andy, so surprised to hear from you on this subject! ;-) Guess I want the "regular" finish (modeling "Liberty Limited" in 1943 and 1953). --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 13 Jun 97 14:46:03 UT Subject: Re: Call for layout info Content-Length: 446 From: KEMACPRR@aol.com > Central Region Northern Division:...Layout size is 32x80 Is it safe to say this is a club layout? > System one DCC is used for train operations. How do you like System One? This is the DCC system I am leaning towards. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 13 Jun 97 15:17:15 UT Subject: RE: Call for layout info Content-Length: 365 >Central Region Northern Division: Railroad currently in operation. Modeling >the PRR's Harrisburg-Buffalo line circa 1962-1968. Layout size is 32x80 >double deck. . . . A 950' mainline mostly double track > Where is this layout, and do you allow visitors? It sounds phenominal. 950 feet = almost 16 HO miles of main! regards Andy Miller > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jer@smellycat.com Date: 13 Jun 97 17:30:04 UT Subject: PRR truck...almost... Content-Length: 880 On the way home from work tonight, I was stopped at a light, and saw a semi-trailer truck also waiting at the light. The cab of the truck was painted a dark green color, almost like "Brunswick" green, and the truck had 6 (I counted) gold stripes which ran from the back of the cab, across the door, to the front. There was no company name on the truck, but it sure looked good! If the PRR was around today and still had its Pennsylvania Truck Lines subsidiary, that would have been a good choice for a truck paint scheme. Tuscan Red would have been even better, though.... Later, -Jer -- Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 13 Jun 97 17:46:10 UT Subject: Can't contain myself Content-Length: 541 Wanted to share my excitement... My wife DID get me the Bowser K4 deluxe kit for our anniversary (10th)! Thanks to all who provided me with info over the past week. Once I read through the instructions a few times, I will likely ask questions to a few of you or the list. Thanks again. 8-) ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zeolla@erols.com Date: 13 Jun 97 17:48:08 UT Subject: Re: PRR truck...almost... Content-Length: 987 Too bad you couldn't get a picture!!! jer@smellycat.com wrote: > > On the way home from work tonight, I was stopped at a light, and saw > a semi-trailer truck also waiting at the light. The cab of the truck > was painted a dark green color, almost like "Brunswick" green, and > the truck had 6 (I counted) gold stripes which ran from the back of the > cab, across the door, to the front. > > There was no company name on the truck, but it sure looked good! If > the PRR was around today and still had its Pennsylvania Truck Lines > subsidiary, that would have been a good choice for a truck paint > scheme. Tuscan Red would have been even better, though.... > > Later, > -Jer > > -- > Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam > mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday > http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore > Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 13 Jun 97 17:56:06 UT Subject: Re: Can't contain myself Content-Length: 941 Jerry, When you get her together, couple up to an HO model of the Pennsy "Queen Mary" flat and haul a brick around your layout! Congratulations on your 10th! Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 ---------- > From: jerry@dsop.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Can't contain myself > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 1:46 PM > > > Wanted to share my excitement... > > My wife DID get me the Bowser K4 deluxe kit for our anniversary (10th)! > > Thanks to all who provided me with info over the past week. Once I read > through the instructions a few times, I will likely ask questions to a few > of you or the list. Thanks again. 8-) > ----------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton > "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html > Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 13 Jun 97 17:58:58 UT Subject: Re: PRR truck...almost... Content-Length: 1365 There is a truck lines that uses a keystone on their truck doors. I think Ward Trucking out of Altoona has a Keystone as well but no PRR colors. Harry Fitch ---------- > From: zeolla@erols.com > To: Members of group > Subject: Re: PRR truck...almost... > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 1:48 PM > > Too bad you couldn't get a picture!!! > > jer@smellycat.com wrote: > > > > On the way home from work tonight, I was stopped at a light, and saw > > a semi-trailer truck also waiting at the light. The cab of the truck > > was painted a dark green color, almost like "Brunswick" green, and > > the truck had 6 (I counted) gold stripes which ran from the back of the > > cab, across the door, to the front. > > > > There was no company name on the truck, but it sure looked good! If > > the PRR was around today and still had its Pennsylvania Truck Lines > > subsidiary, that would have been a good choice for a truck paint > > scheme. Tuscan Red would have been even better, though.... > > > > Later, > > -Jer > > > > -- > > Jerry W. Jordak The boxcars and flatbeds, whistle blowin' steam > > mailto:jer@smellycat.com That was yesterday > > http://prozac.cwru.edu/jer/ Now those big trains don't come anymore > > Acts 16:31 <>< -- Restless Heart, "Big Iron Horses" !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 13 Jun 97 18:03:18 UT Subject: Re: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1541 Jerry, I've got a set of the first issue Bachmann PRR cars and they look pretty good. Didn't someone from the list members give some notes an equipping these with Kadee couplers? I still have to do all of mine. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Genesis 1:1 ---------- > From: britton@pit-magnus.com > To: Members of group > Subject: RE: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 10:44 AM > > > From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > > > >> Bachmann will also be rerunning their HO Spectrum line of passenger > > >> cars. New numbers and car names will be available. PRR fans will have > > >> both the regular and H.G. (High Gloss) paint schemes - they are doing > > >> both. . . . > > > > > >Is the difference between "regular" and "high gloss" a reference to the > > >model's finish only, or is it a reference to a prototype PRR paint job? > > >Which would I want? > > > > I believe the "regular" finish is the post war - Tuscan body, deluxe > 3-stripe, black trucks; the "high gloss" finish > > is the 1920 scheme with a Tuscan body, the gold stripes outlined in black > and the green trucks. > > Andy, so surprised to hear from you on this subject! ;-) > > Guess I want the "regular" finish (modeling "Liberty Limited" in 1943 and > 1953). > --------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator > Progressive Information Technologies > britton@pit-magnus.com > http://www.pit-magnus.com > > > !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RLMower@aol.com Date: 13 Jun 97 20:24:33 UT Subject: Re: PRR truck...almost... Content-Length: 78 Shumaker Trucking has aa green keystone on the door of their trucks Randy !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hfitch@maranatha.net Date: 13 Jun 97 21:42:13 UT Subject: Keystones are everywhere. Content-Length: 282 Since this group is gone "Keystone Nuts" anyway.... anyone not using Heinz Ketchup should revamp their condiment purchasing habits. All kitchen tables of SPF's should be decorated with Keystone labels on all the containers. Harry Fitch hfitch@maranatha.net Acts 4:12 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: djwartel@ix.netcom.com Date: 13 Jun 97 23:08:46 UT Subject: Re: Can't contain myself Content-Length: 499 >Wanted to share my excitement... > >My wife DID get me the Bowser K4 deluxe kit for our anniversary (10th)! > >Thanks to all who provided me with info over the past week. Once I read >through the instructions a few times, I will likely ask questions to a few >of you or the list. Thanks again. 8-) Congratulations Jerry! I hope you enjoy the K4. I have an H9s that I am waiting to get the time to try. I guess we could compare notes. Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 14 Jun 97 00:17:10 UT Subject: Re: Call for layout info Content-Length: 221 Railroad is located in Downingtown Pa. And yes we do allow visitors. Railroad will be open for the NMRA MER Division convention in November. If you're in the area and would like to visit let me know via 610-458-8698. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 14 Jun 97 11:39:11 UT Subject: "KC" Update Content-Length: 410 "KC" now offers free classified advertising for individuals buying/selling PRR memorabilia or models. I've also added many new vendor links that I never had before. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 14 Jun 97 11:49:24 UT Subject: RE: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 1202 From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org > >Is the difference between "regular" and "high gloss" a reference to the > >model's finish only, or is it a reference to a prototype PRR paint job? > >Which would I want? > > I believe the "regular" finish is the post war - Tuscan body, deluxe 3-stripe, black trucks; > the "high gloss" finish > is the 1920 scheme with a Tuscan body, the gold stripes outlined in black and the green > trucks. My new K4 8-) was accompanied by Standard Hobby Supply's 4/15/97 catalog. Page 16-17 sheds some light on the Bachman subject. Based on what they still have in stock: High Gloss: Pullman (doesn't specify model...12-1?) Pre War: Combine Coach #1703 Coach #3323 Diner Coach #1704 Observation Post War: Combine Coach #4533 Coach #3748 Diner Coach #3816 Observation Seems there must have been three series of cars from Bachman Spectrum! Andy...anyone...care to take a stab at the classes? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 15 Jun 97 13:07:48 UT Subject: "Liberty Limited" dinner train Content-Length: 2042 Last night the Mrs. and I rode the "Liberty Limited" dinner train out of New Freedom, Pa. I am pleased to "highly" recommend it. There were reservations for about 100. They were expecting 200 for Father's Day. Capacity is around 220. We rode a "Murder on the Limited" excursion...$10 more than dinner only...we paid $49 per person. It WAS worth it. The entertainment, atmosphere, and meal were all great. While we had a "murder" theme, they also do simple dinners, a new cabaret theme, and comedy. Menu featured authentic railroad recipes: "Shrimp Dip", Pennsylvania Railroad; "House Salad", Soo Line Railroad; choice of "Prime Rib", Missouri Pacific, "Chicken Chesapeake", Chicago North West, and "Mahi Mahi Fish", Lahaina, Kaanapali and Pacific; and "Chef's Specialty Dessert", Northern Central Railway. I had the chicken; wife had the prime rib. Both excellent. Dessert was choice of Apple Crumb cake or Black Velvet cake. Latter was excellent. Ride was four hours round trip. Their business car was on the tail end. Train was pushed northward. As most stayed in their seats waiting for dinner, we went to the business car's open platform which, since we were being pushed, offered a locomotive view of the oncoming track. Got a picture of the Holland Tunnel as we approached and entered. The only tunnel on the old NC line. Surprisingly, the entire NC line from New Freedom north to York is open. The "Liberty Limited" goes to within two miles of the York city limit. Thereafter the trackage is owned by the Ma & Pa. The LL wants to buy the last few miles, but the M&P want too much money. Anyway, I highly recommend this "attraction". The Mrs. isn't big on trains and she loved it and wants to return. UNRELATED: Marysville train meet (today) was a bust. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: 15 Jun 97 13:45:50 UT Subject: Re: Keystones are everywhere. Content-Length: 499 At the last PRRT&HS-Philly meeting, the entertainment was a fellow with about 100 slides of the keystone logo in places where it can be found today. Only a few were on old freight cars, etc. And I would say less than half were on railroad property, or abandoned railroad property. The rest were on restaurants, bars, in store windows.....it went on and on. A fine psychological "pick-me-up" for a group which was in a blue funk about all the Conrail/CSX/NS silliness! Rich Copeland !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 15 Jun 97 15:04:55 UT Subject: Re: Call for layout info Content-Length: 1779 I've posted this. What is your name (I only have an e-mail address) and what is the name of the club? ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- ---------- From: KEMACPRR@aol.com To: Members of group Subject: Call for layout info Date: 13 Jun 97 14:27:31 UT Central Region Northern Division: Railroad currently in operation. Modeling the PRR's Harrisburg-Buffalo line circa 1962-1968. Layout size is 32x80 double deck.Construction started in 1992 currently 95% of track is in service and signalling is the next major project. A 950' mainline mostly double track controlled by two dispatchers "Kase" on the eastern end controls main line trackage from just west of Rockville to "Lyons" located across the river from Williamsport. Also included in "Kases" territory are the Shamokin Br., Selinsgrove Br., Wilkes Barre Br., Williamsport Br. and southern end of the Elmira Br. The "Lyco" dispatcher located in Williamsport controls the main line from "Lyons" to Delevan NY. located 40 miles east of Buffalo. Also in "Lyco's" territory are the west end of the Bald Eagle Br. and the Driftwood Sec. Helpers are used on most trains over the 2.7% Keating Summit grade with the helper operations based in Renovo instead of Emporium as the real PRR did. Operating sessions require 20 people and are held once a month. Portions of the Reading RR , New York Central and EL are also included in the operations as is a large 200 sq.ft. steel mill ficticiously located in Port Alleghany Pa. System one DCC is used for train operations. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ptrmgtsvc@juno.com Date: 15 Jun 97 18:02:57 UT Subject: Bayhead Loop Content-Length: 350 Does anybody out there know what the largest engine to go around the Bayhead Loop was? Thanks MEA ______________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY PTRMgtSvc@Juno.Com Management Services 1-800-484-7673-8270 Michael E Allen MEAllen@Juno.Com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 15 Jun 97 18:23:28 UT Subject: Re: Call for layout info Content-Length: 1062 No this is not a club layout it's a private one. I'm very happy with the System 1 . I had the Lenz DCC system for about 3 years and outgrew the address capabilities . When Lenz announced their upgrade I waited to see what it included, the main items I were looking for were the ability to mu more than 2 units and the long address ( using the unit # as the address ) . They only went part way with the upgrade so I went looking for other manufacturers. I tested both the Chief from Digitrax and the Sys 1 for about 3 weeks apiece. I liked the Sys 1 handsets better they were easier to use and had a lot shorter learning curve for operators to get used to the equiptment. My recommendation to anyone who is considering DCC is to actually run trains with the system as the feel of the system is sometimes more important than the technical aspects. I use Digitrax, Sys 1 , North Coast, and Lenz decoders. There are about 135 in service at the present time. If you would like to visit sometime give me a call at 610-458-8698 and we can set one up. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 15 Jun 97 21:28:41 UT Subject: "KC" Request for files Content-Length: 849 I have posted information on subscriber's model railroads as submitted to date. There are a few from before that have not yet been resubmitted: Dave Wartel's layout, someone modeling the Philadelphia Terminal Division, etc. If anyone wants to add info about their layout, please do so. Thanks. I am now ready for editors to resubmit branch histories. I will begin reposting these on Wednesday evening...which is set aside for Web editing. Mark Bej and Bruce Smith: I will pick up the Port Road and CV histories from your sites. You needn't resubmit. Thanks, all, reconstruction is going well. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 16 Jun 97 00:29:18 UT Subject: Layout info what is name? Content-Length: 140 Jerry sent my reply before reading your 2nd message. Name is Ken McCorry for the General Manager of the Central Region Northern Division. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: cupper@ibm.net Date: 16 Jun 97 01:28:02 UT Subject: Re: "Liberty Limited" dinner train Content-Length: 568 > oncoming track. Got a picture of the Holland Tunnel as we approached > and entered. The only tunnel on the old NC line. > Think you mean the *Howard* Tunnel, Jerry. BTW, how does the train's appearance come off these days? I stopped by there a few months back on my way through from DC to Harrisburg and to be honest, it looked like dog's breakfast then. No two adjacent cars seemed to match (wildly differing paint schemes), and the storm-window conversion on one car gave it a, what's the word? -- unique look. Dan Cupper Romans 10:9 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 16 Jun 97 06:55:30 UT Subject: Re: "Liberty Limited" dinner train Content-Length: 2077 From: cupper@ibm.net > > oncoming track. Got a picture of the Holland Tunnel as we approached > > and entered. The only tunnel on the old NC line. > > > > Think you mean the *Howard* Tunnel, Jerry. Duh! (Typed the message in a hurry when the wife wasn't looking...she accuses me of having an Internet addiction!) > BTW, how does the train's appearance come off these days? I stopped > by there a few months back on my way through from DC to Harrisburg > and to be honest, it looked like dog's breakfast then. No two > adjacent cars seemed to match (wildly differing paint schemes), and > the storm-window conversion on one car gave it a, what's the word? -- > unique look. Still doesn't look that good. The train's been in operation for a year now. They had a lot of debt to pay off on the 20+ miles of RoW, to which they are adding much ballast. Line seems in pretty decent shape, considering Conrail wanted to abandon it. Most cars look pretty decent on the inside, though there was no attempt to provide vintage tables and seating. However, tablecloths and place settings are first rate. The business car was in great shape inside. Outsides of cars vary. Some look pretty bad. Others have decent paint, but boring...though it may have been the original scheme for the car. The only PRR car, Catalpa Falls, has not been redone inside. It is used as a staging area for the actors and actresses. Outside it bears Tuscan paint without frills...no gold stripes, etc. I'd really like to see this car fixed up. Spoke with the owner. He's got 13 cars in service. I noted that there are many more in the yard, so he's got some work ahead of him. There is a "movement" to restore the station. They are having "Northern Central Heritage Days" in August. I will post more info on this shortly. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://www.dsop.com/britton/railroad/index.html Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: robs@protocol.zycad.com Date: 16 Jun 97 11:01:07 UT Subject: Re: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 926 There were three runs so far of Spectrum cars that I know of. There were two runs of the post war cars with Tuscan Red, yellow striping and black underframes. The second run of these is the one that Standard has in stock. Both runs were identical except for the car numbers. I've heard complaints that the color Spectrum used represents a very faded Tuscan red. The High Gloss cars are the same cars with a pre-war "High Gloss" paint job. Tuscan red (not faded), gold striping, and olive green underbody and trucks. Sharp looking if the era's right for you! These cars have metal trucks which run much better than the plastic ones on the post war cars (the other ones have wipers for the wheels which kill the rolling quality of the cars.) As for classes Coach P70 Combine PB70 Diner D78 Observation Z74 (hope I didn't botch these up!) I didn't know that they made a pullman... Rob !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rhensley@ecicnet.org Date: 16 Jun 97 11:02:10 UT Subject: Weekend Walk on the Pennsy Content-Length: 3161 Greetings All, This weekend, I took an 8x10 photo that was loaned to me for use on my 'RRs of Madison County (Indiana)' web site and went in search of the location. The picture was of 'Delco Tower', the control point on the Pennsy for all rail traffic into and out of Delco- Remy division of GM here in Anderson Indiana. I knew roughly where it needed to be because of was because of some of the buildings in the background. If I am going to put it up on my site, I want to know where it was. :-) The first attempt put me onto some streets that I had never been on before. Quite a mix. I found that more of the Pennsy still exists in Anderson than I thought. I stood on the old main line in two different spots, but neither matched up with the photo. Close, but not right. After going home, I decided to make a trip downtown to our library to talk to a couple of the local historians there. On the way, I decided to make one more attempt on my own. Hey, I must have driven by Delco Tower many times when I was a young pup. Back through the back streets and down around the 'Quartz Glass' and back out. The Philadelphia Quartz Glass plant HAD to be in this picture. Back out to the main streets again and then near a spot where the PRR and the NYC had crossed and 5 streets came together in an odd configuration, I pulled into a parking lot and started to walk the abandoned rail bed. I stopped on the 'tracks' and looked back down the line toward town and then turning around, I held up the picture. The ties and the concrete switch stand mounts were still visible at my feet and on the photo was the scene that I was looking at as I stood on the site of the tower and the speeder building next to it. The 67 Caddy had been parked right there about 10 feet from where I was and to my left was the parking lot where I was parked and where the owner of the property was getting out of his car to see what the guy with the picture was doing. To his inquiry, I replied that I was visiting history. He seemed to enjoy looking at the photo and realizing what had been here before. He pointed to a single line pole with heavy cross-arms and a few remaining glass insulators on it and explained how he had sold some of the insulators. "This pole?" I asked as I pointed out the tips of the cross-arms in the photo. No doubt about it. I had found the spot and I had, indeed, passed by it many times when I was younger. I knew that something was missing there, but I never could remember what. Now I know and a small bit of history had fallen into place and into my memory. Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@ecicnet.org Information Systems Specialist - Ball State University - Muncie, IN === http://bsuvc.bsu.edu/~00rphensley/cidwelco.html ================ === The Railroads of Madison County, Indiana ======================= !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 16 Jun 97 11:32:40 UT Subject: Re: Weekend Walk on the Pennsy Content-Length: 587 From: rhensley@ecicnet.org > the > owner of the property was getting out of his car to see what the > guy with the picture was doing. > > To his inquiry, I replied that I was visiting history. He seemed to > enjoy looking at the photo and realizing what had been here before. Ever see "Touched By An Angel"? Perhaps you were visited by "The ghost of PRR Past"! 8-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: 16 Jun 97 11:35:37 UT Subject: Re: Weekend Walk on the Pennsy Content-Length: 958 > Caddy had been parked right there about 10 feet from where I was > and to my left was the parking lot where I was parked and where the > owner of the property was getting out of his car to see what the > guy with the picture was doing. > > To his inquiry, I replied that I was visiting history. He seemed to > enjoy looking at the photo and realizing what had been here before. > He pointed to a single line pole with heavy cross-arms and a few > remaining glass insulators on it and explained how he had sold > some of the insulators. "This pole?" I asked as I pointed out the > tips of the cross-arms in the photo. ... A trick I learned from Jon Roma. On railfanning trips, it helps to take relevant "goodies" along, not just a camera. This breaks the ice very nicely, prevents calls to the police, and other such generally favorable acts... -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 16 Jun 97 11:58:38 UT Subject: RE: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 999 > >My new K4 8-) was accompanied by Standard Hobby Supply's 4/15/97 catalog. >Page 16-17 sheds some light on the Bachman subject. Based on what they still >have in stock: > >High Gloss: >Pullman (doesn't specify model...12-1?) > >Pre War: >Combine >Coach #1703 >Coach #3323 >Diner >Coach #1704 >Observation > >Post War: >Combine >Coach #4533 >Coach #3748 >Diner >Coach #3816 >Observation > >Seems there must have been three series of cars from Bachman Spectrum! > >Andy...anyone...care to take a stab at the classes? >----------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton >----------------------------------------------- > I'm lost now also. As I said, I own only one (postwar- I believe) Bachmann P-70. So I don't know now what the THREE Schemes are. Could the Postwar be Dulux Gold and the Pre-war Gold leaf? Bachmann does not make a Pullman! Could this be an IHC car? Or oare they callong something else a Pullman? regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 16 Jun 97 12:12:57 UT Subject: Re: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 497 As I recall, about two years ago Bachmann announced that they were working on a HW Pullman. They showed a foto of a single vestibule Betterment cars - a 6-6 I think. It was not a pilot, rather a brass model which they painted. Could thei "pullman" be it? I doubt very serieously if Bachman would release such a new item with no fanfare. I does seem odd for it to just show up at onl;y one dealer's!! I still vote for a misprint or misnomer on the dealer's part. regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: 16 Jun 97 12:42:14 UT Subject: Re: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 541 I believe the Pullman mentioned is the one that Bachman has promised for about 5 years now. It's supposed to be available later this year in a variety of Pullman schemes the green and two tone gray are one's that come to mind. The one shown in the adds had the air conditioning duct work on the roof . It was a 12-1 by the way.I see that Life-Like is offering their trucks and couplers as a seperate items now maybe Bachman will take the hint and offer their pass. trucks as well. The PRR trucks would be a godsend for PRR modelers. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: asmiller@mail11.mitre.org Date: 16 Jun 97 13:53:51 UT Subject: Re: Bachman Spectrum Passenger Cars Content-Length: 278 I see that Life-Like is offering their trucks and >couplers as a seperate items now maybe Bachman will take the hint and offer >their pass. trucks as well. The PRR trucks would be a godsend for PRR >modelers. > - ----- As would the K4 tender! regards Andy Miller !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 16 Jun 97 20:12:50 UT Subject: Two more PDF docs at "KC" Content-Length: 574 Thanks to Dave Wartel, I have posted two more Acrobat (PDF) documents at "KC". Both are available via the Web or FTP. The new documents are: 1) 1946 Annual Report 2) "Through Freight Train Schedules Between Principal Points", dated February 1, 1952. BTW: Will be back online at higher speed Tuesday evening. Delay due to boneheads at US Robotics. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Date: 16 Jun 97 22:25:43 UT Subject: Passenger Class Cross Reference Content-Length: 672 Folks, especially Andy Miller: I have begun recreation of my Pennsy Passenger Class cross reference table which indicates appropriateness of available models. The URL is http://prr.dsop.com/passops/passclass_xref.html . Note that it is not yet complete. Clicking on a major class (P70) will open up another page with specs, unit rosters, and subclasses (P70, P70BR, P70R), etc. Please check it out, make comments, make corrections, etc. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton "Keystone Crossings" http://prr.dsop.com/ Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! ----------------------------------------------- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobp@tsc.com Date: 16 Jun 97 23:35:30 UT Subject: Test... Is this list active? Content-Length: 318 Is this list active? I tried to subscribe several weeks ago but never got a confirmation. I tried again tonite and got a reply that I was already subscribed. Haven't seen any traffic yet?! -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com, http://www.tsc.com/~bobp) Technology Service Corp. Bloomington, Indiana USA !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: geshick@velocity.net Date: 17 Jun 97 00:34:32 UT Subject: Spectrum & checks Content-Length: 842 Earlier this year I bought the Spectrum K4 & the heavyweight passenger set. (The local dealer did say that a Pullman set was forthcoming.) Of course the K4 slips badly (even with 3 cars). Has anyone tried to add weight or rubber tires, & if so, how well did it work? Also, I just received my order of blank checks from Checks In The Mail. I ordered the Transportation design, which includes a passenger train. The locomotive appears to have a Belpaire firebox. It's tough to make out details, but it looks like a 4-6-2 (#73116), & has a wide rectangular plate about half way up the front. The tender is about the same height as the cab, and I don't see a cow-catcher. Just curious to know if anyone has seen these checks, & can i.d. the locomotive. with (#73116) -- Jerry Shickler Erie, PA e-mail: geshick@velocity.net !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CBlood59@aol.com Date: 17 Jun 97 08:02:27 UT Subject: Re: Test... Is this list active? Content-Length: 480 Bob, I just subscribed yesterday. I am an N-scale model railroader who has only recently developed an interest in prototypical operation, particularly PRR, so I'm sure that I won't have much to offer on this list. Indeed, you and I may be the list. I was hoping to learn from the postings of others. Maybe we can talk it up on the model railroad newsgroup, and spark some interest that way. Let me know if you have any other ideas. Curt Blood cblood59@aol.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jun 97 08:37:24 UT Subject: Re: Test... Is this list active? Content-Length: 1124 From: CBlood59@aol.com > I just subscribed yesterday. I am an N-scale model railroader who has only > recently developed an interest in prototypical operation, particularly PRR, > so I'm sure that I won't have much to offer on this list. Indeed, you and I > may be the list. I was hoping to learn from the postings of others. Maybe > we can talk it up on the model railroad newsgroup, and spark some interest > that way. Let me know if you have any other ideas. Yes, the list is active and working!!! Many get on this list thinking they won't have much to offer, but everyone does. Learn from the list. In many aspects, I was "green" when I started this list. The time will come when you will feel comfortable "chiming in". As for list traffic, the past 24 hours has been relatively slow. There are usually about two dozen posts a day. As of this morning (I happened to check), there were 76 subscribers. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 17 Jun 97 09:22:15 UT Subject: Re: Test... Is this list active? Content-Length: 1062 > In many aspects, I was "green" when I started > this list. The time will come when you will feel comfortable "chiming in". So, did anyone else read this and think Jerry was telling us he started this list as a Central fan hoping to be converted? I thought I had a source for 5 stripe P2K HO E8's to share with all of you, but I was wrong. Oh well. Does anyone know if the Trainmaster diesels owned by the Pennsy ever had a Keystone on each side of the short nose like the Athearn does? I can't find any pictures showing it that way so I assume not. Also, aside from moving the fans together and toward the end of the long hood, removing several of the groups of louvers along the top edge of the body sides, what else would need to be done to the Athearn model to get it to be "correct" AFA what the Pennsy owned? I'm tempted to do that and say close enough; I'm splicing in the fans from a Bachmann H-16-44. Cutting through that thick Athearn shell to remove the old fans has given me a pinched nerve in one of my fingertips:-( -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: shadow@dementia.org Date: 17 Jun 97 11:10:10 UT Subject: Re: Test... Is this list active? Content-Length: 1483 > To be correct, Derrick, you'd have join me in modeling the Panhandle in > Central Ohio. All six Pennsy Trainmasters were used primarily for transfer > duties in and around Columbus' Buckeye and Grogan yards. We SPFss hereabouts > take the amount of FM equipment assigned to this area as a sign of how near > (or far) this area was to the hearts of the denizens of Broad Street. All of > the diesel shifters I've seen in Pennsy pictures from SW Ohio are FM H-10-44s > or H-12-44s. I've seen pictures of the Trainmasters and other FM power in the vicinity of Johnstown PA, generally in and around (East) Conemaugh. I can get references if it really matters. > I checked my photos of Pennsy's six Trainmasters and none have Athearn's > short nose Keystone. However, none of the pix are from the final years of the > Pennsy when small keystones were replacing the large Pennsylvania lettering > on long hoods. Of course, these were lettered Pennsylvania on the long hoods so presumably would also be wrong for the later years. Also, a while back I had mentioned that I had a Baldwin freight Shark decorated with the "worm", and wondered if any of the lightning stripe gang had made it to the roster of the colossus, and people seemed to come to a "no" consensus. This doesn't disprove that but the proposed roster in Pennsy Power 2 mentions the Central's sharks being held over in the numbering scheme, so it's possible, I suppose... -D !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jun 97 13:41:47 UT Subject: Re: Test... Is this list active? Content-Length: 913 From: shadow@dementia.org > > In many aspects, I was "green" when I started > > this list. The time will come when you will feel comfortable "chiming in". > > So, did anyone else read this and think Jerry was telling us he started this > list as a Central fan hoping to be converted? Oh, a funny man! I meant I didn't know squat when I started this list. Now I know squat plus a little! The downside is that knowledge is expensive. I have a set of ABA F7s in Tuscan that now I can't use! Same with a six car set of Athearn streamline passenger cars. Instead of buying $5-8 car kits, now I am spending $20+. Maybe I was better off stupid! BTW: Anyone need an Athearn PC wide vision caboose? ! ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Macintosh Systems Administrator Progressive Information Technologies britton@pit-magnus.com http://www.pit-magnus.com !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: britton@pit-magnus.com Date: 17 Jun 97 13:42:34 UT Subject: Assembling a Bowser Content-Length: 1065 I've read the directions for assembly of my K4 kit and am less overwhelmed than I originally was...the good news is that I expected to be overwhelmed. It now looks somewhat "easier" (if that is the right word) than I had expected. I have a few questions, and I k