From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] C.T. xxxx Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:06:19 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Most of the paper we are interested in is a C.T. followed by a number. I have right in front of me a C.T 815B Daily Check of Cars and Record of Seals. My question is what does C. T. stand for? Surprisingly I also have a clearance book but it isn't a C. T. It is general notice no. 207-B. Go figure! Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] For Sale - Walthers Undec. R50B's Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:08:12 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have for sale 6 Walthers undecorated R50B express reefers (stock = #932-5880). These undec. models do not have any of the detail parts = applied to the body. Price is $13.95 each plus shipping to your ZIP Code depending upon = quantity wanted. Please respond to me off list. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] C.T. xxxx Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:10:56 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B47342@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] C.T. xxxx Thread-Index: AcUIZ0kallJtCGVjQNugSGhZqBmqygAAIItg From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com C.T. stood for "Conducting Transportation". -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] C.T. xxxx Most of the paper we are interested in is a C.T. followed by a number. I have right in front of me a C.T 815B Daily Check of Cars and Record of Seals. My question is what does C. T. stand for? Surprisingly I also have a clearance book but it isn't a C. T. It is general notice no. 207-B. Go figure! Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:22:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] C.T. xxxx From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, February 1, 2005, at 09:06 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Most of the paper we are interested in is a C.T. followed by a number. > I have right in front of me a C.T 815B Daily Check of Cars and Record > of Seals. My question is what does C. T. stand for? Surprisingly I > also have a clearance book but it isn't a C. T. It is general notice > no. 207-B. Go figure! I believe all of the CT forms came out of the Transportation department. Could the T be for Transportation? And the C for Conducting or something? Totally guessing. Do not interpret as correct! A listing (probably not complete) of Transportation forms can be found here... http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Documentation/Forms/ct_forms.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:55:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Frosty Rails 2005 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lists, Saturday, February 12th, the Beaver Valley Junction Chapter of the NRHS will be hosting "Frosty Rails 2005", an all day Model Railroad and Railfan event. Should be something for everyone. The event is being held at the Homewood Vol, Fire Dept Social Hall. Homewood, Pa. (not the Pgh suburb) is located off the Pa. Turnpike near the interection of route 18 between the towns of Beaver Falls and Kopple. Direction Signs will be posted at various spots to guide you in. For more info on schedule of events, please refer to this site: http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/bvjc3/index.html and the most recent issue of Railpace Homewood Jct (M.P. 34) is located on the x-PRR now NS mainline and plenty of action will be seen right out the back door. Other railfan spots include "Summit Cut" overlook, Conway Yds, New Castle CSX action, Beaver Falls/New Brighton. All main line action. Hope to see you there for this 1st planned of an annual event........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Acbcbert@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:34:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Bomb Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, The numerous responses to this subject triggered some memories. i worked as an Oiler / Greaser on the 3 to 11 shift ( I was still in High School, but, along with two others, were left out of classes early) in the Columbia, PA yards. This was from late summer 1944 to spring 1945. I noticed numerous trains passing through with most ( if not all ) cars marked with the Explosive / Ordinance signs on them All were going either south or east, presumably to a POE at Baltimore , Philadelphia, or Hobokon ( sp?). Cola provide helpers to most going east, either double headers or pushers, or both.. The usual car was a box ( 40' or 50', I don't remember, but a fair number of gondolas, and an occasional flat. ( I once found a live 37 mm shell lying loose in a gondola parked in the Yard, and took it home. Even though I was almost 17 at the time, my Dad beat the living S--- out of me [ the last time he ever did this ] and made me take it back. It was not unusual to have a bunch of these cars sitting in the Yard, albeit for only a very short time. Where they came from, I don't know, but they were soon either shunted onto an existing train or, if enough accumulated, made up into a Special. As a matter of historical trivia, later in life, as a Professional Civil Engineer, I had occasion to work on a couple WWII ordinance Plant conversions to Local Industrial Parks. There was a TNT Factory south of Meadville, an Army Ordinance storage facility south of Williamsport near Allenwood ( where the Federal " Country Club" Prison is now ), a Naval Ordinance Plant east of York ( Harley - Davidson is there now ), an Ordinance storage facility at Lordstown, Ohio ( Chevrolet Motors has two assembly plants there now, and Ordinance facilities at Tobyhanna, Letterkenny, Kittatiny , and probably many others throughout PA. All of which had sidings, probably all PRR. Now, I have a question : I want to refresh my memory as to what types of locomotives were stationed at COLA in the period 1944 - 1945. I have a copy of the M. P. 229 - Assignment of Locomotives ( thanks to Jerry's web site ), but can't tell what locations. Does " ARF" stand for Assistant Road Foreman ? That would give me a cross reference which might be helpful. Thanks in advance. Allen B. Campbell, P. E. "Bert" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] C.T. xxxx Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:56:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B47342@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: C.T. stood for "Conducting Transportation". Mmmmmm, interesting. I always though it stood for Chief of Transportation - i.e. a document put out by the Chief of Transportation's office (an old term). Like the CE documents were those issued by the Chief Engineer.. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:42:12 +0000 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:51:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, February 1, 2005, at 03:42 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > I see that Walthers will be coming out with this car in PRR. Is this > car accurate for the Pennsy? The PRR did have a 3-2-Obs car built to plan 3959. Is this the plan Walthers is using? I think there was only one such car... Joel Chandler Harris. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] For Sale: Soho Brass Obs. Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:56:40 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, For your buying pleasure. One (1) HO PRR Soho & Co. Brass Undecorated Congressional blunt-end observation car. Stock #1808. PRR Class POC85c. Description: #7126 Parlor-Telephone-Observation, Champ Decals are included, car is mint although missing protective plastic. Original box and foam. Asking for $110, or a fair brass trade. Please contact me for information before Saturday. Regards, John York, PA Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Maryland, and Maryland & Pennsylvania. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:06:26 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:22:23 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUIn4voBDAfiMVISrK14gg2dWZsxgABDekg In-reply-to: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As I recall the PRR had only one 3-2 Obs which it acquired during WWII and converted for war emergency commuter use. The Walthers diner supposedly is a Southern prototype. Does it also match the SAL cars? The coaches are a B&O prototype. Given 2D-P5 trucks, could they be stand-ins for P70s? regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 3:42 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation Greetings: I see that Walthers will be coming out with this car in PRR. Is this car accurate for the Pennsy? Ted P.S: I would imagine that the 36-seat diner and paired-window coach are not PRR prototypes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:51:09 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <20050201210626.39808.qmail@web52602.mail.yahoo.com> X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.2.1.7 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to Garry's list: http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_Heavyweight_Pullmans.pdf there were some 3-2's of the same plan 3959 converted into classes PU92R and PUW134 of WWII coaches. So if the Walthers car is a 3959 maybe it can be used for these too? Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:06 PM To: Jerry Britton; Ted Andrews Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman 3-2 Longe Observation "Do'n throw me in that briar patch, B'rer Listmeister!!! B'rer Bill Daniels TooSawn Aridzona! --- Jerry Britton wrote: > > The PRR did have a 3-2-Obs car built to plan 3959. > Is this the plan > Walthers is using? > > I think there was only one such car... Joel Chandler > Harris. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N > Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" > mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 #6170 Overstock Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:22:38 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have too many Brodway Limited #6170 J1's on hand and would like to = move several out at a bargain price of $257.00 which includes UPS = shipping. These engines are new in the box and in mint condition. This special price applies to this engine number only. Please reply to directly to me off list. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] new PRR book Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:34:04 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I noticed that there is a new book out by Stewart and Augsberger titled = "The Pennsylvania, The Eastern Lines". Can any one confirm if the = Schuylkill branch and/or the Bel Del are included in this book? How = many pages are dedicated to each? Jeff Smith Manheim, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:22:08 -0800 (PST) From: Angela Sutton Subject: [PRR] division / region lettering on cabins From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] division / region lettering on cabins Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:06:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Angela, >From the paint diagrams in the December 1974 Keystone, the notes on several of them state: Assigned place has been changed from "Div." to "Region", Dec 13, 1940. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela Sutton" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:22 PM Subject: [PRR] division / region lettering on cabins > List, > I've been curious for a while about cabin lettering practices for identifying region and division assignments. The photos I've seen mostly show lettering for regions, though some c. 1940 shots show division instead. Was there an official description of what information was to be shown here, and how might cabins have been lettered in the late '40's? > > Thanks! > > Angela > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:15:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:16:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Chester Subject: Re: Re: Tickets I recall in the 60's the CJ YM at Ashland Ave. yard stating that all 21 RRs came there to interchange. As I recall most interchanges were one way affairs. Must have been wild. Jack C. Jack, I'm sure it's explained by a combination of the Chicago Junction's location at a nexus of east and west railroads, plus the captive industrial complex there (I'm no longer sure if the name was "Central Manufacturing District" or some other moniker), plus proximity to the stockyards -- but this fact is a grabber. For those not familiar, one durable fixture of PRR, PC, and CR Arranged Freight Schedules was a train out of Ashland Avenue and east over the Pennsy to the east coast. Dare I assume that this traffic was built upon a combination of Chicago meat packing and western-road meat/perishables? (roll those reefers, Jim) Bottom line, an impressive cog in the Pennsy's machinery, especially considering that the Chicago Junction and Chicago River & Indiana guys were longtime NYC-owned operations. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:15:47 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Ashland Avenue, Chicago In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:16:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Chester Subject: Re: Re: Tickets I recall in the 60's the CJ YM at Ashland Ave. yard stating that all 21 RRs came there to interchange. As I recall most interchanges were one way affairs. Must have been wild. Jack C. Jack, I'm sure it's explained by a combination of the Chicago Junction's location at a nexus of east and west railroads, plus the captive industrial complex there (I'm no longer sure if the name was "Central Manufacturing District" or some other moniker), plus proximity to the stockyards -- but this fact is a grabber. For those not familiar, one durable fixture of PRR, PC, and CR Arranged Freight Schedules was a train out of Ashland Avenue and east over the Pennsy to the east coast. Dare I assume that this traffic was built upon a combination of Chicago meat packing and western-road meat/perishables? (roll those reefers, Jim) Bottom line, an impressive cog in the Pennsy's machinery, especially considering that the Chicago Junction and Chicago River & Indiana guys were longtime NYC-owned operations. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Rcy2bD/UOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] division / region lettering on cabins Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:42:49 -0500 To: Angela Sutton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 1, 2005, at 9:22 PM, Angela Sutton wrote: > I've been curious for a while about cabin lettering practices for > identifying region and division assignments. The photos I've seen > mostly show lettering for regions, though some c. 1940 shots show > division instead. Was there an official description of what > information was to be shown here, and how might cabins have been > lettered in the late '40's? Regions replaced Divisions as the organization entity as of 1956. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ for more information on corporate structure. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:55:11 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B473FD@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago Thread-Index: AcUI5qqJR22CFbLgTE+Haqsgdk2AywAPtyiA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , , , , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com If you are talking about the 59th Street yard which laid between Ashland and Western, there was a connecting track that ran parallel to 59th Street over to the 55th Street yard. The track from 59th St south was known as the=20 "Panhandle" and went to Logansport.=20 There was a hump just below 63rd Street where a Lima LS25 did the honors most of the time. When the LS25 was "sick" an H-20-44 filled in. We sent interchange with PRR power to the CNW at Damen Ave. and to the Outer Belt line. I seem to remember the B&O and NKP brought cars to us. The BRRC distributed most of the interchange to the western roads. The CJ was at a place we used to refer to as "the freezers". They had a fleet of Lima switchers. They would get the reefers off the western roads, put them into the "freezers" where vegetable brokers would open the cars and squeeze the lettuce. Then the CJ would give them to us for forwarding to the east coast destinations. The brokers would then phone their counterparts in Philadelphia and New York and recommend what to bid on the car based on their inspections in Chicago. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:16 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; sthipes@hotmail.com Subject: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:16:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 1 =20 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Chester Subject: Re: Re: Tickets I recall in the 60's the CJ YM at Ashland Ave. yard stating that all 21 RRs=20 came there to interchange. As I recall most interchanges were one way affairs.=20 Must have been wild. Jack C. Jack, I'm sure it's explained by a combination of the Chicago Junction's location=20 at a nexus of east and west railroads, plus the captive industrial complex=20 there (I'm no longer sure if the name was "Central Manufacturing District" or some=20 other moniker), plus proximity to the stockyards -- but this fact is a=20 grabber. For those not familiar, one durable fixture of PRR, PC, and CR Arranged=20 Freight Schedules was a train out of Ashland Avenue and east over the Pennsy to the=20 east coast. Dare I assume that this traffic was built upon a combination of=20 Chicago meat packing and western-road meat/perishables? (roll those reefers,=20 Jim) Bottom line, an impressive cog in the Pennsy's machinery, especially=20 considering that the Chicago Junction and Chicago River & Indiana guys were longtime=20 NYC-owned operations. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville=20 Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR=20 Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from=20 Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really=20 looking forward to operating again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:38:58 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I got my stock cars yesterday and ran them last night. As previously reported there is good news and bad news. The good news is that the car body itself appears to be very well done. It has separately applied ladders and grabs, but he end grabs on the end sill appear to be cast on and the ladders seem to me to stand off too much. The bad news is the trucks. They roll well enough. I ran the four car in a 17 car freight of mostly stock cars (kit bashed K8s, Mathers, and CV NP cars). They operated flawlessly, but the trucks look pretty poor. The Bowser 2D-F12s are far better. However, a truck swap is VERRY difficult! In their wisdom BLI decided that they could design a better tuck mounting than the usual 2-56 screw. As a result they have screwed everyone ;-) The truck is a one-piece casting with a large diameter tube on top of the bolster which fits, and is keyed into a mating deep hole in the floor with a post in the center to which the truck is screwed. It is held in place by a very small diameter screw with a very broad pan head. The screw is too short to hold any other truck securely and an ordinary 0-80 screw does not have a head large enough to avoid falling through the bolster hole of an NMRA standard truck, such as the Bowser. I found 2 broad head 0-80 (or metric stand-ins) screws in my junk screw bin. I used them and a very thin washer to mount a pair of Bowser trucks with IM code 88 wheels on one of the cars. I don't know where I will be able to find similar screws for the other three cars, but at $25 per car, I should not have to put up with this sort of thing! I wish that BLI had a) used a truck mounting compatible with almost everyone else in the hobby, and b) spent less money on the fancy plastic box now in my trash, and more on the truck appearance. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:08:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 1-72 screws also will work in mounting Bowser trucks. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a's >I got my stock cars yesterday and ran them last night. As previously > reported there is good news and bad news. The good news is that the car > body itself appears to be very well done. It has separately applied > ladders > and grabs, but he end grabs on the end sill appear to be cast on and the > ladders seem to me to stand off too much. > > The bad news is the trucks. They roll well enough. I ran the four car in > a > 17 car freight of mostly stock cars (kit bashed K8s, Mathers, and CV NP > cars). They operated flawlessly, but the trucks look pretty poor. The > Bowser 2D-F12s are far better. However, a truck swap is VERRY difficult! > In their wisdom BLI decided that they could design a better tuck mounting > than the usual 2-56 screw. As a result they have screwed everyone ;-) > The > truck is a one-piece casting with a large diameter tube on top of the > bolster which fits, and is keyed into a mating deep hole in the floor with > a > post in the center to which the truck is screwed. It is held in place by > a > very small diameter screw with a very broad pan head. The screw is too > short to hold any other truck securely and an ordinary 0-80 screw does not > have a head large enough to avoid falling through the bolster hole of an > NMRA standard truck, such as the Bowser. I found 2 broad head 0-80 (or > metric stand-ins) screws in my junk screw bin. I used them and a very > thin > washer to mount a pair of Bowser trucks with IM code 88 wheels on one of > the > cars. I don't know where I will be able to find similar screws for the > other three cars, but at $25 per car, I should not have to put up with > this > sort of thing! I wish that BLI had a) used a truck mounting compatible > with almost everyone else in the hobby, and b) spent less money on the > fancy > plastic box now in my trash, and more on the truck appearance. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:24:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I ran on the BRC 1993-94. They had a 900Pm job that took a drag to Ashland every night via the BOCT and returned via the CWI .........a loop as it was, turning the engine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:55 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago If you are talking about the 59th Street yard which laid between Ashland and Western, there was a connecting track that ran parallel to 59th Street over to the 55th Street yard. The track from 59th St south was known as the "Panhandle" and went to Logansport. There was a hump just below 63rd Street where a Lima LS25 did the honors most of the time. When the LS25 was "sick" an H-20-44 filled in. We sent interchange with PRR power to the CNW at Damen Ave. and to the Outer Belt line. I seem to remember the B&O and NKP brought cars to us. The BRRC distributed most of the interchange to the western roads. The CJ was at a place we used to refer to as "the freezers". They had a fleet of Lima switchers. They would get the reefers off the western roads, put them into the "freezers" where vegetable brokers would open the cars and squeeze the lettuce. Then the CJ would give them to us for forwarding to the east coast destinations. The brokers would then phone their counterparts in Philadelphia and New York and recommend what to bid on the car based on their inspections in Chicago. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:16 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; sthipes@hotmail.com Subject: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:16:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Chester Subject: Re: Re: Tickets I recall in the 60's the CJ YM at Ashland Ave. yard stating that all 21 RRs came there to interchange. As I recall most interchanges were one way affairs. Must have been wild. Jack C. Jack, I'm sure it's explained by a combination of the Chicago Junction's location at a nexus of east and west railroads, plus the captive industrial complex there (I'm no longer sure if the name was "Central Manufacturing District" or some other moniker), plus proximity to the stockyards -- but this fact is a grabber. For those not familiar, one durable fixture of PRR, PC, and CR Arranged Freight Schedules was a train out of Ashland Avenue and east over the Pennsy to the east coast. Dare I assume that this traffic was built upon a combination of Chicago meat packing and western-road meat/perishables? (roll those reefers, Jim) Bottom line, an impressive cog in the Pennsy's machinery, especially considering that the Chicago Junction and Chicago River & Indiana guys were longtime NYC-owned operations. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:41:29 -0600 To: "" , STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "'PRR-Talk' LIST" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 2, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Andy Miller wrote (on PRR-talk & PRR-Modeling): > I got my stock cars yesterday and ran them last night. As previously > reported there is good news and bad news. The good news is that the > car > body itself appears to be very well done. It has separately applied > ladders > and grabs, but he end grabs on the end sill appear to be cast on Actually, most (between 2/3 and 3/4) of the grabs on mine were pulled so tightly to the sides that they were "painted on" to the sides and ends. This appears to be because BLI's assemblers just pull the grab all the way in and then bend it, rather than use a spacing jig to get the grab offset correct. I'll probably want to reset most of them, if not all and then fix the paint. > and the ladders seem to me to stand off too much. I was ready to take BLI to task for this, but a closer examination of photos of the REAL car show the same stand off. It is much less noticeable once the car is weathered. Also, the paint on these cars flakes off very easily. Any handling at all and the ladders start shedding, and the door tracks are just as bad. > > The bad news is the trucks. > In their wisdom BLI decided that they could design a better tuck > mounting > than the usual 2-56 screw. As a result they have screwed everyone ;-) > The > truck is a one-piece casting with a large diameter tube on top of the > bolster which fits, and is keyed into a mating deep hole in the floor > with a > post in the center to which the truck is screwed. I finally realized that BLI must have come up with this ...ahem... "idea" so that they wouldn't have to teach their assemblers about polarity. The keyed lug assures that the two trucks go in with opposite polarities if all the trucks are assembled with insulated wheels on the same side. Remember that this car is supposed to oink (it should NEVER moo, unless you remove the upper deck, which BLI has CAST into the sides... argggggh) > I wish that BLI had a) used a truck mounting compatible > with almost everyone else in the hobby, and b) spent less money on the > fancy > plastic box now in my trash, and more on the truck appearance. I snipped Andy comments on replacing the truck with the Bowser 2d-F12, but as he did, I found that this can be done. It required about 0.06" of homemade styrene washers to get the car to the correct height on my Kadee gauge. I made these with a paper punch and 0.010" styrene that I then drilled holes in the middle to fit over the BLI bolster. I also filled the "moat" around the bolster with putty first, to better support the washers. BTW, look for a review of this car by Ben Hom in TKM (either the Feb or March issue IIRC) and I'm working on an article on improvements to the car already Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:24:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago I ran on the BRC 1993-94. They had a 900Pm job that took a drag to Ashland every night via the BOCT and returned via the CWI .........a loop as it was, turning the engine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:55 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago If you are talking about the 59th Street yard which laid between Ashland and Western, there was a connecting track that ran parallel to 59th Street over to the 55th Street yard. The track from 59th St south was known as the "Panhandle" and went to Logansport. There was a hump just below 63rd Street where a Lima LS25 did the honors most of the time. When the LS25 was "sick" an H-20-44 filled in. We sent interchange with PRR power to the CNW at Damen Ave. and to the Outer Belt line. I seem to remember the B&O and NKP brought cars to us. The BRRC distributed most of the interchange to the western roads. The CJ was at a place we used to refer to as "the freezers". They had a fleet of Lima switchers. They would get the reefers off the western roads, put them into the "freezers" where vegetable brokers would open the cars and squeeze the lettuce. Then the CJ would give them to us for forwarding to the east coast destinations. The brokers would then phone their counterparts in Philadelphia and New York and recommend what to bid on the car based on their inspections in Chicago. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:16 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; sthipes@hotmail.com Subject: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago In a message dated 2/1/2005 4:16:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Chester Subject: Re: Re: Tickets I recall in the 60's the CJ YM at Ashland Ave. yard stating that all 21 RRs came there to interchange. As I recall most interchanges were one way affairs. Must have been wild. Jack C. Jack, I'm sure it's explained by a combination of the Chicago Junction's location at a nexus of east and west railroads, plus the captive industrial complex there (I'm no longer sure if the name was "Central Manufacturing District" or some other moniker), plus proximity to the stockyards -- but this fact is a grabber. For those not familiar, one durable fixture of PRR, PC, and CR Arranged Freight Schedules was a train out of Ashland Avenue and east over the Pennsy to the east coast. Dare I assume that this traffic was built upon a combination of Chicago meat packing and western-road meat/perishables? (roll those reefers, Jim) Bottom line, an impressive cog in the Pennsy's machinery, especially considering that the Chicago Junction and Chicago River & Indiana guys were longtime NYC-owned operations. Rick Tipton ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EpW3eD/3MnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:26:35 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ALL of the cars in the four-pack I put aside for myself have the grab = irons pulled tight against the body. Not too difficult to get into body = but indeed be prepared to have the paint flake off the ladders from the = handling. Some of the grabs also broke off as I was rebending them. = Polly Scale Special Oxide Red is a pretty goood match for the BLI paint. Rolling qualities of the trucks in my four-pack varied from crap to = pretty decent. Frank Brua ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Smith=20 To: ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; = 'PRR-Talk' LIST=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's On Feb 2, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Andy Miller wrote (on PRR-talk &=20 PRR-Modeling): > I got my stock cars yesterday and ran them last night. As = previously > reported there is good news and bad news. The good news is that the = > car > body itself appears to be very well done. It has separately applied = > ladders > and grabs, but he end grabs on the end sill appear to be cast on Actually, most (between 2/3 and 3/4) of the grabs on mine were pulled=20 so tightly to the sides that they were "painted on" to the sides and=20 ends. This appears to be because BLI's assemblers just pull the grab = all the way in and then bend it, rather than use a spacing jig to get=20 the grab offset correct. I'll probably want to reset most of them, if = not all and then fix the paint. > and the ladders seem to me to stand off too much. I was ready to take BLI to task for this, but a closer examination of=20 photos of the REAL car show the same stand off. It is much less=20 noticeable once the car is weathered. Also, the paint on these cars=20 flakes off very easily. Any handling at all and the ladders start=20 shedding, and the door tracks are just as bad. > > The bad news is the trucks. > In their wisdom BLI decided that they could design a better tuck=20 > mounting > than the usual 2-56 screw. As a result they have screwed everyone = ;-)=20 > The > truck is a one-piece casting with a large diameter tube on top of = the > bolster which fits, and is keyed into a mating deep hole in the = floor=20 > with a > post in the center to which the truck is screwed. I finally realized that BLI must have come up with this ...ahem...=20 "idea" so that they wouldn't have to teach their assemblers about=20 polarity. The keyed lug assures that the two trucks go in with=20 opposite polarities if all the trucks are assembled with insulated=20 wheels on the same side. Remember that this car is supposed to oink=20 (it should NEVER moo, unless you remove the upper deck, which BLI has=20 CAST into the sides... argggggh) > I wish that BLI had a) used a truck mounting compatible > with almost everyone else in the hobby, and b) spent less money on = the=20 > fancy > plastic box now in my trash, and more on the truck appearance. I snipped Andy comments on replacing the truck with the Bowser 2d-F12, = but as he did, I found that this can be done. It required about 0.06" = of homemade styrene washers to get the car to the correct height on my = Kadee gauge. I made these with a paper punch and 0.010" styrene that = I=20 then drilled holes in the middle to fit over the BLI bolster. I also=20 filled the "moat" around the bolster with putty first, to better=20 support the washers. BTW, look for a review of this car by Ben Hom in TKM (either the Feb = or=20 March issue IIRC) and I'm working on an article on improvements to the = car already Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:30:36 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUJPjfg3feOSZOSQduknUCg5k9MBwABgCpQ In-reply-to: <54b2e8b80f2c9f3ed3bd507152bdfc0f@vetmed.auburn.edu> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce, Your observation about the need to maintain polarity for the sound version is a good one. I wonder how many of the strange features of these trucks are a "sound" idea? Are these cars the unsound version ;-) regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:41 AM To: ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk' LIST Subject: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's On Feb 2, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Andy Miller wrote (on PRR-talk & PRR-Modeling): > I got my stock cars yesterday and ran them last night. As previously > reported there is good news and bad news. The good news is that the > car body itself appears to be very well done. It has separately > applied ladders and grabs, but he end grabs on the end sill appear to > be cast on Actually, most (between 2/3 and 3/4) of the grabs on mine were pulled so tightly to the sides that they were "painted on" to the sides and ends. This appears to be because BLI's assemblers just pull the grab all the way in and then bend it, rather than use a spacing jig to get the grab offset correct. I'll probably want to reset most of them, if not all and then fix the paint. > and the ladders seem to me to stand off too much. I was ready to take BLI to task for this, but a closer examination of photos of the REAL car show the same stand off. It is much less noticeable once the car is weathered. Also, the paint on these cars flakes off very easily. Any handling at all and the ladders start shedding, and the door tracks are just as bad. > > The bad news is the trucks. > In their wisdom BLI decided that they could design a better tuck > mounting than the usual 2-56 screw. As a result they have screwed > everyone ;-) The truck is a one-piece casting with a large diameter > tube on top of the bolster which fits, and is keyed into a mating deep > hole in the floor with a post in the center to which the truck is > screwed. I finally realized that BLI must have come up with this ...ahem... "idea" so that they wouldn't have to teach their assemblers about polarity. The keyed lug assures that the two trucks go in with opposite polarities if all the trucks are assembled with insulated wheels on the same side. Remember that this car is supposed to oink (it should NEVER moo, unless you remove the upper deck, which BLI has CAST into the sides... argggggh) > I wish that BLI had a) used a truck mounting compatible with almost > everyone else in the hobby, and b) spent less money on the fancy > plastic box now in my trash, and more on the truck appearance. I snipped Andy comments on replacing the truck with the Bowser 2d-F12, but as he did, I found that this can be done. It required about 0.06" of homemade styrene washers to get the car to the correct height on my Kadee gauge. I made these with a paper punch and 0.010" styrene that I then drilled holes in the middle to fit over the BLI bolster. I also filled the "moat" around the bolster with putty first, to better support the washers. BTW, look for a review of this car by Ben Hom in TKM (either the Feb or March issue IIRC) and I'm working on an article on improvements to the car already Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/9MtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:40:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUJRAB05A8vO0KgREmjF45dGpwwZwAAPqrA In-reply-to: <003701c50943$f77313a0$a24656d8@FBRUA> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All four of my K7a's rolled well. But that is irrelevant since the truck will all be replaced with Bowser 2D-F12s anyway. On further note, how often did a train consist of mixed animals? These K7a's have the upper deck, indicating they carried smaller animals, pigs or sheep. Other stock car models don't show an upper deck and presumably were for cattle. Would pigs and cattle be handled in the same train? How did they arrange the unloading for feed and water? I realize that in PRR NF trains this was not supposed to be an issue, but if the train ran late, they might need an emergency stop for feed and water. Another question - were the upper decks stored somewhere if not in use? Was it on the car itself? Or were the cars in dedicated service for a particular shipper or animal type and conversion from single to double deck or vice-versa, was very unlikely. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Park Varieties [mailto:parkvarieties@provide.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:27 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk' LIST Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's ALL of the cars in the four-pack I put aside for myself have the grab irons pulled tight against the body. Not too difficult to get into body but indeed be prepared to have the paint flake off the ladders from the handling. Some of the grabs also broke off as I was rebending them. Polly Scale Special Oxide Red is a pretty goood match for the BLI paint. Rolling qualities of the trucks in my four-pack varied from crap to pretty decent. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Smith To: ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; 'PRR-Talk' LIST Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:41 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's On Feb 2, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Andy Miller wrote (on PRR-talk & PRR-Modeling): > I got my stock cars yesterday and ran them last night. As previously > reported there is good news and bad news. The good news is that the > car > body itself appears to be very well done. It has separately applied > ladders > and grabs, but he end grabs on the end sill appear to be cast on Actually, most (between 2/3 and 3/4) of the grabs on mine were pulled so tightly to the sides that they were "painted on" to the sides and ends. This appears to be because BLI's assemblers just pull the grab all the way in and then bend it, rather than use a spacing jig to get the grab offset correct. I'll probably want to reset most of them, if not all and then fix the paint. > and the ladders seem to me to stand off too much. I was ready to take BLI to task for this, but a closer examination of photos of the REAL car show the same stand off. It is much less noticeable once the car is weathered. Also, the paint on these cars flakes off very easily. Any handling at all and the ladders start shedding, and the door tracks are just as bad. > > The bad news is the trucks. > In their wisdom BLI decided that they could design a better tuck > mounting > than the usual 2-56 screw. As a result they have screwed everyone ;-) > The > truck is a one-piece casting with a large diameter tube on top of the > bolster which fits, and is keyed into a mating deep hole in the floor > with a > post in the center to which the truck is screwed. I finally realized that BLI must have come up with this ...ahem... "idea" so that they wouldn't have to teach their assemblers about polarity. The keyed lug assures that the two trucks go in with opposite polarities if all the trucks are assembled with insulated wheels on the same side. Remember that this car is supposed to oink (it should NEVER moo, unless you remove the upper deck, which BLI has CAST into the sides... argggggh) > I wish that BLI had a) used a truck mounting compatible > with almost everyone else in the hobby, and b) spent less money on the > fancy > plastic box now in my trash, and more on the truck appearance. I snipped Andy comments on replacing the truck with the Bowser 2d-F12, but as he did, I found that this can be done. It required about 0.06" of homemade styrene washers to get the car to the correct height on my Kadee gauge. I made these with a paper punch and 0.010" styrene that I then drilled holes in the middle to fit over the BLI bolster. I also filled the "moat" around the bolster with putty first, to better support the washers. BTW, look for a review of this car by Ben Hom in TKM (either the Feb or March issue IIRC) and I'm working on an article on improvements to the car already Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Give the gift of life to a sick child. Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.' http://us.click.yahoo.com/5iY7fA/6WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/9MtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:26:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Announced in Brass in N Scale From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <02A9489E-7548-11D9-916E-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Railway Classics has announced they are going to do the 1938 Broadway Limited in brass in N scale. It will feature an 8 car main set (two sets of names/numbers) and a 4 car add-on set (two sets of names/numbers). The builder will be Ajin Precision and they will feature interior walls, tinted glass, and MicroTrains couplers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:36:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, My previous post was concerning Chicago Junction's Ashland Avenue Yard, a bit west of the Pennsy yards you were mentioning. You are describing PRR's 59th Street Yard, which was the west (and from here north) main Chicago terminal of the Panhandle route, which went to St. Louis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, and yes, Pittsburgh. PRR's 55th Street was the western terminal of the Fort Wayne line (direct to Pittsburgh), and yes, the two yards were connected by the "EC." However, for really hot traffic out of Chicago, and to handle some high-volume western connections, PRR also originated trains at other points. I believe one of these was IHB's Blue Island Yard, and another was CJ's Ashland Avenue. Never mind that these were NYC affiliates -- that's where the traffic came from onto the Pennsy. In a message dated 2/2/2005 8:00:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: If you are talking about the 59th Street yard which laid between Ashland and Western, there was a connecting track that ran parallel to 59th Street over to the 55th Street yard. The track from 59th St south was known as the "Panhandle" and went to Logansport. There was a hump just below 63rd Street where a Lima LS25 did the honors most of the time. When the LS25 was "sick" an H-20-44 filled in. We sent interchange with PRR power to the CNW at Damen Ave. and to the Outer Belt line. I seem to remember the B&O and NKP brought cars to us. The BRRC distributed most of the interchange to the western roads. The CJ was at a place we used to refer to as "the freezers". They had a fleet of Lima switchers. They would get the reefers off the western roads, put them into the "freezers" where vegetable brokers would open the cars and squeeze the lettuce. Then the CJ would give them to us for forwarding to the east coast destinations. The brokers would then phone their counterparts in Philadelphia and New York and recommend what to bid on the car based on their inspections in Chicago. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:05:41 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, PRR also had freights originating at Colehour - traffic interchanged at Grand Crossing, Ill., (off IC for example) went via Colehour. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago > Bill, > > My previous post was concerning Chicago Junction's Ashland Avenue Yard, a > bit > west of the Pennsy yards you were mentioning. > > You are describing PRR's 59th Street Yard, which was the west (and from > here > north) main Chicago terminal of the Panhandle route, which went to St. > Louis, > Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, and yes, Pittsburgh. PRR's 55th Street > was > the western terminal of the Fort Wayne line (direct to Pittsburgh), and > yes, > the two yards were connected by the "EC." > > However, for really hot traffic out of Chicago, and to handle some > high-volume western connections, PRR also originated trains at other > points. I believe > one of these was IHB's Blue Island Yard, and another was CJ's Ashland > Avenue. > Never mind that these were NYC affiliates -- that's where the traffic came > from onto the Pennsy. > > In a message dated 2/2/2005 8:00:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, > bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: > If you are talking about the 59th Street yard which laid between Ashland > and Western, there was a connecting track that ran parallel to 59th > Street over to the 55th Street yard. The track from 59th St south was > known as the > "Panhandle" and went to Logansport. > > There was a hump just below 63rd Street where a Lima LS25 did the honors > most of the time. When the LS25 was "sick" an H-20-44 filled in. We > sent interchange with PRR power to the CNW at Damen Ave. and to the > Outer Belt line. I seem to remember the B&O and NKP brought cars to us. > The BRRC distributed most of the interchange to the western roads. The > CJ was at a place we used to refer to as "the freezers". They had a > fleet of Lima switchers. They would get the reefers off the western > roads, put them into the "freezers" where vegetable brokers would open > the cars and squeeze the lettuce. Then the CJ would give them to us for > forwarding to the east coast destinations. > > The brokers would then phone their counterparts in Philadelphia and New > York and recommend what to bid on the car based on their inspections in > Chicago. > > ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville > Kentucky > .....................................................Building a new PRR > Buckeye Division > .............................................................in HO from > Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 > ...................................................................I'm > really > looking forward to operating again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RYagodich@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:49:48 EST Subject: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited Content-Language: en X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com =20 I couldn=E2=80=99t help but enjoy the recent exchange concerning the controv= ersy, =20 that started over the question about how to contact Eastern Car Works. The f= orum=20 membership seemed to have touched on a number of topics in that discussion.= =20 (Boy, I=E2=80=99ll bet the person who asked the original question never expe= cted or =20 intended to start such a ruckus.) Though tempers flared, some very good poin= ts=20 were brought out and some stupid things were said. Let me summarize.=20 *Point Number One. Some of the folks on this forum take themselves way to =20 seriously. Though you may not intend it, you come across as pompous jerks wh= o =20 only participate because you enjoy hearing yourself pontificate and expound=20= on =20 any and every subject PRR. (I repeat, you may not intend to come across that= =20 way, but trust me, you do.)=20 *Point Number Two. You probably need to lighten up on the criticism heaped=20 on the commercial manufacturers, both present and in the past, who build PR= R=20 models out there. We need those large, medium and small companies and =E2= =80=9CMom and=20 Pop=E2=80=9D shops that have been in it for the long haul working their tail= s off to =20 support us. I=E2=80=99ll bet they are doing the best they can with the infor= mation=20 they have or had available at the time and don=E2=80=99t appreciate all the= criticism=20 and nitpicking. Besides, once you=E2=80=99ve pissed off all of the US manuf= acturers=20 and BLI goes under because they saturated the US market, whom are you going= to=20 have then to turn to?=20 A lot of that equipment that the manufacturers made way back then (Though i= t=20 wasn=E2=80=99t quite right for the Pennsy.), still saved us some ugly scrat= ch=20 building and kit bashing projects and ultimately sharpened our modeling ski= lls as a=20 side benefit.=20 *Point Number Three. You folks out there counting all the rivets, =20 criticizing whoever for a missed detail on their new N5C cabin, searching c= onstantly=20 for that elusive freight car color formula or that perfect mix of DGLE, put= =20 down your scale rulers, your photos and your builders drawings, take two st= eps=20 back, a deep breath and relax. Cut yourself and other modelers some slack.=20 Have you ever considered that enough is enough and maybe you need to redire= ct=20 your research efforts into some PRR related task that would have more immed= iate=20 use to yourself and fellow modelers? Have you ever considered that this=20 attention to detail may be driving the manufacturers you hope to support an= d your=20 fellow modelers crazy.=20 Maybe one of the reasons that more modelers don=E2=80=99t show up in the Mod= el Room=20 is because they=E2=80=99re afraid of the criticism that may have to endure f= rom =20 others. I have overheard numerous conversations where self-proclaimed =E2= =80=9Cexperts=E2=80=9D =20 are tearing up someone=E2=80=99s model, yet they have nothing in the model r= oom to show=20 their talent. Might be nice to show a little kindness.=20 I probably have some other relevant comments, but I=E2=80=99m sticking with= what I=20 consider the most important suggestions for improvement. =20 The above opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of Jerry =20 Britton or anyone affiliated with Jerry=E2=80=99s site. Thanks for your at= tention.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6556.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:10:48 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited Thread-Index: AcUJgr3Wg/HBJZ9dRBe+pZoaHOa0OQAAO/eg From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2005 00:10:48.0883 (UTC) FILETIME=[D087F030:01C50984] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. 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From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:15:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.81, clamav-milter version 0.81b on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've spent a lot of time in model rooms at PRRH&TS conventions and I have yet to experience anyone tearing into another modeler's model. When I do hear criticism it is usually from the modelers themselves pointing out the flaws in their model or what they would do differently. I had 6 models at Cincinnati this past year. As to "maybe you need to redirect your research efforts into some PRR related task that would have more immediate use to yourself and fellow modelers?" have you been reading TKM over the past year, lots of good stuff there? Finally, you should sign your posts. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:36:08 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago Bill, My previous post was concerning Chicago Junction's Ashland Avenue Yard, a bit west of the Pennsy yards you were mentioning. You are describing PRR's 59th Street Yard, which was the west (and from here north) main Chicago terminal of the Panhandle route, which went to St. Louis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, and yes, Pittsburgh. PRR's 55th Street was the western terminal of the Fort Wayne line (direct to Pittsburgh), and yes, the two yards were connected by the "EC." However, for really hot traffic out of Chicago, and to handle some high-volume western connections, PRR also originated trains at other points. I believe one of these was IHB's Blue Island Yard, and another was CJ's Ashland Avenue. Never mind that these were NYC affiliates -- that's where the traffic came from onto the Pennsy. In a message dated 2/2/2005 8:00:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: If you are talking about the 59th Street yard which laid between Ashland and Western, there was a connecting track that ran parallel to 59th Street over to the 55th Street yard. The track from 59th St south was known as the "Panhandle" and went to Logansport. There was a hump just below 63rd Street where a Lima LS25 did the honors most of the time. When the LS25 was "sick" an H-20-44 filled in. We sent interchange with PRR power to the CNW at Damen Ave. and to the Outer Belt line. I seem to remember the B&O and NKP brought cars to us. The BRRC distributed most of the interchange to the western roads. The CJ was at a place we used to refer to as "the freezers". They had a fleet of Lima switchers. They would get the reefers off the western roads, put them into the "freezers" where vegetable brokers would open the cars and squeeze the lettuce. Then the CJ would give them to us for forwarding to the east coast destinations. The brokers would then phone their counterparts in Philadelphia and New York and recommend what to bid on the car based on their inspections in Chicago. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:26:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Re: BLI K7a's X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/2/2005 11:51:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: Another question - were the upper decks stored somewhere if not in use? Was it on the car itself? Or were the cars in dedicated service for a particular shipper or animal type and conversion from single to double deck or vice-versa, was very unlikely. Andy, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the floors retracted into the roof. I won't bet my life on my memory though. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 01:41:17 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List - Has anyone suggestions for what to use to strip paint from the Model Power sharks ? Thank you. Hank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: [PRR] RE: BLI K7a's Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:48:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich Orr wrote: "I seem to recall reading somewhere that the floors retracted into the roof. I won't bet my life on my memory though." That's certainly true for some convertible deck stock cars; however, these cars usually have some sort of lift or hoist mechanism to lift the upper deck into the roof. The most familiar example to modelers are the NYC stock cars rebuilt from USRA SS boxcars, offered in HO by AHM and Roco in N (seemingly in every scheme EXCEPT NYC - including PRR!). http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-757.jpg Class K7A diagrams and photos show no signs of any lift hardware. Richard Hendrickson stated earlier that the upper deck was built in sections, which facilitated removing it if necessary, though you needed a team of guys at the car shop to "covert" the car from a double deck car. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:52:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I use brake fluid with success. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:11:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/2/05 7:48:42 PM Central Standard Time, hanel29@att.net writes: > List - Has anyone suggestions for what to use to strip paint from the Model > Power sharks ? Hi I stripped my 4 Model Power shells with Pine Sol. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:22:37 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: BLI K7a's From: "michael hmel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:26:48 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List ,=20 While on the topic of Sharks ....can anyone point me to a web address of = good Shark pics ? I want to add train phone / antenna's and need to know = the location of and the number of supports ( I count 8 on a pic I have = ) . I have two sets of Keil-line ( O scale ) antenna supports and am = looking for additional set , it appears that they are out of stock , = anyone know of a hobbystore that stocks them ? As always , thanks for any help anyone can give me .=20 Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal > I use brake fluid with success. >=20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 21:44:07 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Wow! What a disertation! I feel like have been lectured to by a school teacher... Let me say this, you (you didn't sign your post) have the some valid points... Some I agree with, some I don't... Here's some observations I have made in this hobby as a pro-active modeler wishing to help the entire modeling and historical community for the benefit for all ...including the manufactures. 1) I have never attended a modeling meet in the recent past that the promotors haven't ask that you,"please check your EGOS at the door!" I go to plenty... Do you or do you just listen to hear-say? 2) We at the PRRT&HS have a body of folks decicated to the preservation of the PRR in miniature... We are pro-acive with most manufactures in a face to face relationships, albeit mostly over the Internet... If the manufacturer makes the choice to use the services we provide... Some have and we as modelers have reaped the benefits and some are transparent at the wishes of that comapany... 3)We do provide samples of what we believe are the correct colors for the The Keystone Modelers out there to anyone that wishes to make use of them... We don't discriminate to any manufacturer Reagardless of the market they are wishing to service. 4) We realize that this hobby is diverse by nature and we appreciate the guy who "counts rivets" and those that don't and help all regardless. Some of us are of the opinion that if you as a manufacturer want to do it right (and most do) then we can provide what it takes, in most cases, to do just that... without reservation or compensation... If someone needs copies of PRRT&HS valued information such as drawings and such we will provide it and the cost to do so are known to all up front. WE don't look to profit from it just recoup the cost in materials... There is even a corparate Memebership just to help defry some of the cost in the intial reproductions and it doesn't stop there it is also available to the individual at the same cost as a Keystone Member. Pretty fair I would say... Does any other historical society do this? Maybe... Please, take a deep breath and listen to these folks, make a value judgement of where you fit and for Heavens Sake share your hobby with others at whatever modelers meet you can find and relax and again...SHARE just as they do. You will find that there is likely no contest, or score cards and no egos. We all just like to share the PRR in miniature... I don't mean to sound like a snot nosed brat, I'm not... Hey, there is a great modelers meet coming up in Pittsburgh, PA if anyone lives close... GO! participate, enjoy, chat, listen and learn just take a sample of your talent with you and enjoy others... Heck, TAKE PILES OF PRR MODELS we are a powerful group... SHOW IT! Thanks, Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RYagodich@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:44:37 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: ECW Discussion Revisited X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Brian, Not a problem. Like yours, my name is my email address. R Yagodich.(Bob). Regards your experiences in the model room, just not at the right place at the right time I guess. I wasn't able to make Cincinnatti and I would have truly enjoyed seeing your models. Your right, the TKM is a fine publication. My comments were not directed to it. Take care. Bob Yagodich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:43:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hank, I used brake fluid successfully also, but only leave them in there as short a time as required. I saw a friend wreck a couple by leaving them in it too long. They got all mushy. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRRT&HS Talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal > List - Has anyone suggestions for what to use to strip paint from the Model Power sharks ? Thank you. Hank > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:08:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am repeatedly mystified as to why we continue to see this type of reaction. The first thing they declare is that someone is telling them how to model. HUH? Since no-one here has criticized another person's modeling I cannot understand where this indignation arises. Then after that, they proceed to tell me how to model! Where I come from, we call that hypocrisy. Unlike RYagodich@aol.com I won't try to assume Jerry's role as listmaster, but I thought that part of the attraction of this list was that products could be evaluated fairly, and that the list benefitted by being educated consumers. In fact, I think the results are clear, as more and more manufacturers are now working with the PRRT&HS to produce the most accurate models on the market. I fail to see how knowledge is a bad thing. Calling somethin"crap" isn't helpful, but I see very very little of that on this list. What I see are accurate assessments of models. Its then up to you to decide if you can live with the compromises. Its funny, but it seems that folks like RYagodich@aol.com get upset, because knowledge means that something they thought was good enough, may no longer be that, IN THEIR MINDS. Personally, I love the challenge of trying to model as accurately as I can, but hey, if that's not your cup of tea, RELAX... but DO NOT TELL ME TO STOP. Sincerely Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL > I couldn’t help but enjoy the recent exchange concerning the > controversy, > that started over the question about how to contact Eastern Car Works. The > forum > membership seemed to have touched on a number of topics in that > discussion. > (Boy, I’ll bet the person who asked the original question never expected > or > intended to start such a ruckus.) Though tempers flared, some very good > points > were brought out and some stupid things were said. Let me summarize. > *Point Number One. Some of the folks on this forum take themselves way to > seriously. Though you may not intend it, you come across as pompous jerks > who > only participate because you enjoy hearing yourself pontificate and > expound on > any and every subject PRR. (I repeat, you may not intend to come across > that > way, but trust me, you do.) > *Point Number Two. You probably need to lighten up on the criticism > heaped > on the commercial manufacturers, both present and in the past, who build > PRR > models out there. We need those large, medium and small companies and > “Mom and > Pop� shops that have been in it for the long haul working their tails > off to > support us. I’ll bet they are doing the best they can with the > information > they have or had available at the time and don’t appreciate all the > criticism > and nitpicking. Besides, once you’ve pissed off all of the US > manufacturers > and BLI goes under because they saturated the US market, whom are you > going to > have then to turn to? > A lot of that equipment that the manufacturers made way back then (Though > it > wasn’t quite right for the Pennsy.), still saved us some ugly scratch > building and kit bashing projects and ultimately sharpened our modeling > skills as a > side benefit. > *Point Number Three. You folks out there counting all the rivets, > criticizing whoever for a missed detail on their new N5C cabin, searching > constantly > for that elusive freight car color formula or that perfect mix of DGLE, > put > down your scale rulers, your photos and your builders drawings, take two > steps > back, a deep breath and relax. Cut yourself and other modelers some > slack. > Have you ever considered that enough is enough and maybe you need to > redirect > your research efforts into some PRR related task that would have more > immediate > use to yourself and fellow modelers? Have you ever considered that this > attention to detail may be driving the manufacturers you hope to support > and your > fellow modelers crazy. > Maybe one of the reasons that more modelers don’t show up in the Model > Room > is because they’re afraid of the criticism that may have to endure from > others. I have overheard numerous conversations where self-proclaimed > “experts� > are tearing up someone’s model, yet they have nothing in the model room > to show > their talent. Might be nice to show a little kindness. > I probably have some other relevant comments, but I’m sticking with > what I > consider the most important suggestions for improvement. > The above opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of Jerry > Britton or anyone affiliated with Jerry’s site. Thanks for your > attention. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5f64ffe2b48599842b320f7aa5fee633@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Tom Vondruska's Passing Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:46:59 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I regret to inform the list that long-time subscriber Tom Vondruska passed away on January 29th, 2005. I was notified by a friend of his. Tom had health issues over the past few years and was a Lines West fan. I'm sorry but I do not have any further details at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Listmaster Subject: LISTMASTER Re: [PRR] ECW Discussion Revisited Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:53:04 -0500 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Let's cease discussion on this thread as it serves no useful purpose. Some valid points were raised about ECW last week, including availability (by me, fact), quality (by several, perhaps incidental), etc. I think some of the posts last week escalated a bit out of line. However, restarting a bad thread after a week isn't a real good idea either. Thank you for your cooperation in this regard. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthrers TT Flat Cars Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:05:10 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone successfully relettered a Walthers Pennsy 75' Truc Train flat = car? I want to repaint the ones I have to a more correct freight car = color but have been unable to locate a suitable decal set if I do so. = Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:32:11 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] ECW (New Thread) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:14:11 +0000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:18:29 -0500 From: Oerm2133@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would be interested in probably 12 sets of the decals for TT Flat Cars. Don Luke Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:26:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW (New Thread) From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, February 3, 2005, at 09:14 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > Based on the possible news/rumor that ECW cars may not be available, > one concern of mine was the availability of "core car" kits that are > used with Brass Car Sides / Union Station Products / Laser Horizons / > etc. models. Does anyone else make core car kits that can be used for > the above mentioned car sides? Although I have no direct experience, I have heard that the core kits from Train Station Products are decent. They offer both a regular Pullman/ACF kit and a Budd kit. Unfortunately, the two distributors that I use that handle Train Station Products are out of the Pullman/ACF version. oh for two!!! I am indeed hoping ECW comes through with more product. They offered a lot of add-ons that are popular -- window glass, PRR underbody details, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] D78 Diner Question Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 15:37:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:55:38 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a livestock carried Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com While we all can agree that hogs were transported in the K7a in the double deck configuration, were lambs not also transported in these cars in the double deck setup? There were blocks of lambs in several of the dedicated stock trains of the late 40's and early 50's condigned to Bergens in NY. Based on the relative size of the animals, it would seem more efficient to ship lambs in double deck cars. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tom Vondruska's Passing Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:08:22 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: AcUJ5so8SmYj+6i0RE6UyiY6/Fps/QAI4lsg In-Reply-To: <5f64ffe2b48599842b320f7aa5fee633@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com His obituary can be found at: http://www.ysnews.com/obituaries/index.html Douglas Kirkpatrick (born and raised in Yellow Springs, OH) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:47 AM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Tom Vondruska's Passing I regret to inform the list that long-time subscriber Tom Vondruska passed away on January 29th, 2005. I was notified by a friend of his. Tom had health issues over the past few years and was a Lines West fan. I'm sorry but I do not have any further details at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a livestock carried Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:21:21 -0600 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:55 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > While we all can agree that hogs were transported in the K7a in the > double deck configuration, were lambs not also transported in these > cars in the double deck setup? There were blocks of lambs in several > of the dedicated stock trains of the late 40's and early 50's > condigned to Bergens in NY. Based on the relative size of the > animals, it would seem more efficient to ship lambs in double deck > cars. > > Rich Orr Rich, Absolutely! For an excellent resource on stock car operations, albeit biased to Santa Fe, see Steve Sandifer's page at: http://users2.ev1.net/~jssand/SFHMS/Sand/Stk/02.htm He notes that a 40' car held 150 feeder sheep (60 lbs) per deck and 125 fattened sheep (90 lbs) per deck. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:40:30 -0800 (PST) From: Philip Taylor Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a livestock carried From: "Royce Gossett" Subject: [PRR] Problem with receiving messages Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:49:17 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ok, I have done what I am supposed to, but I am still receiving messages = at my old email address, and I am NOT receiving them at my NEW email = address.=20 Please delete my OLD address, jthomasmet@juno.com Please add my NEW address, jthomasmet@verizon.net Thank you, Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx jthomasmet@verizon.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] D78 Diner Question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:54:31 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUKBz3u9swByzgzRJ6uhmCPQvNBlAACWTDg In-reply-to: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com They were very common on the NY-Wash trains. They were upgraded into diner- lounges for many of the lesser long distance trains such as the Clevelender-Akronite. The Keystone did an article on them a long time ago. I recently went to look for it when I wanted to upgrade my old Walthers metal sided car. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:37 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] D78 Diner Question Listers: I have 3 of these cars from Bachmann. I am planning on repainting one and modernizing another one using a NKP Car Co. kit. One question is that how and where were these diners used on the Pennsy? >From 1938 on, twin unit diners were the norm on the Blue Ribbon Fleet especially the Broadway, General and Pennsylvainia Limited. With that said, what trains did D78's operate on? How long did the celestrial roofs last on these cars? Did these cars last on the PRR in the 1950's and 1960's? I believe that The Keystone had articles on the D70's and D82's but I don't think an article was done on D78's TIA Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:05:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] D78 Diner Question From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, February 3, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > They were very common on the NY-Wash trains. They were upgraded into > diner- lounges for many of the lesser long distance trains such as the > Clevelender-Akronite. The Keystone did an article on them a long time > ago. > I recently went to look for it when I wanted to upgrade my old Walthers > metal sided car. > ... > One question is that how and where were these diners used on the > Pennsy? > From 1938 on, twin unit diners were the norm on the Blue Ribbon Fleet > especially the Broadway, General and Pennsylvainia Limited. With that > said, > what trains did D78's operate on? How long did the celestrial roofs > last on > these cars? Did these cars last on the PRR in the 1950's and 1960's? The Varnish database on Keystone Crossings has many of the D78 train assignments as of 1954. Go to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ And search on Class starts with d78 You might want to change the results per page from 30 to 100 or so. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:08:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks for the good news/bad news info. You can count me in for 6 sets if you can get them produced. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars > Frank Brua asked: > "Has anyone successfully relettered a Walthers Pennsy 75' Truc Train flat > car? I > want to repaint the ones I have to a more correct freight car color but > have > been unable to locate a suitable decal set if I do so." > > Frank, this is a good news/bad news situation. The good news is Middle > Division set HFL-1 is an outstanding decal set for these cars. Gus > Minardi used them in doing his TrucTrain flats and they look great. The > bad news is they're out of production, and Northern Central Supply has > sold out the last of the stock that they acquired from Nick Seaman. > > I know Gus is looking for more of these sets, and I've got about eight of > these things that need to be upgraded. Anyone else have a need for these > sets? If we can get an idea of the demand, we can start exploring other > options. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] D78 Diner Question Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 17:10:53 +0000 From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR ops Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:37:24 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gents; This is a new guy's question about freight ops during 1944 in = particular.....=20 My layout is to be an HO version of the Canton District, Central = Region. There was a 4 track mainline, huge yard and PLW type A concrete = roundhouse here then and a big back shop with a transfer = table..........we are right in the middle of the Eastern Division here.=20 If I were on the roof of that big 'ole roundhouse watching what was = going on, would I see N5c Cabins marked Eastern Region zipping westbound = on thru freights or would they have been turned around at Conway? I = guess I am asking where the roaming limits were for freight crews then. = Would I have seen Western region N6b's zipping eastbound thru here or = was Crestline their eastern limit? Anyone know the limits of the Canton = District? If a train was made up here in the yards then headed east or west = bound, since we are in the middle of the Region and 50 miles from Conway = or Crestline, how far would our trusty N5's and N6b's have traveled, = just 50 miles to the limits of this Region/Division? Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:40:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, February 3, 2005, at 03:37 PM, Earl Myers wrote: > My layout is to be an HO version of the Canton District, Central > Region. There was a 4 track mainline, huge yard and PLW type A > concrete roundhouse here then and a big back shop with a transfer > table..........we are right in the middle of the Eastern Division > here. > > If I were on the roof of that big 'ole roundhouse watching what was > going on, would I see N5c Cabins marked Eastern Region zipping > westbound on thru freights or would they have been turned around at > Conway? I guess I am asking where the roaming limits were for freight > crews then. Would I have seen Western region N6b's zipping eastbound > thru here or was Crestline their eastern limit? Anyone know the limits > of the Canton District? > > If a train was made up here in the yards then headed east or west > bound, since we are in the middle of the Region and 50 miles from > Conway or Crestline, how far would our trusty N5's and N6b's have > traveled, just 50 miles to the limits of this Region/Division? Even Conway is too far west! The Eastern "Region" ended just west of Altoona. The cabin would likely have been changed out at Altoona as the eastern end of its trip through the Central Region. I don't know Lines West well enough to suggest where the other end might be. Never say never, however, as this is the PRR!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] D78 Diner Question Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:58:21 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:03:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think Earl is referring to Eastern Div as in Eastern Ohio Div. Locos running on this div would use CO as their pilot stencil. Not 100% sure what Cabins would be lettered for for those assigned here. Possibly Pittsburgh or Ft Wayne, or even Lake. I don't know what the running area would be but I would guess not very far as these cabins were usually assigned to a crew. I need informed more as well.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] passenger ops Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:10:52 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gents; This is a question regarding passenger ops, again, during WW2 era. I am = still on the roof of that big 'ole roundhouse in Canton watching those = 10 Canton yards being worked and watch the T1's, Mountains and K4's = come on the 4 track mains thru the center of the yards pulling various = passenger trains from "no names' all the way up to The Broadway Limited. The passenger station (Canton) is a mile or two west of the yards and = there are no coach yards here. There are a bunch of water colums out on = the mainlines so I assume the passenger locomotives have the option to = stop there for water then pull ahead the two miles to the station if = they had stops there? I assume the reverse is true for east bound = passengers trains? There were track pans about 25 miles away on each = side as well. Coal would have had to last them from Conway I guess or = Crestline on the other side, each 50 miles away. Would they have stopped = somewhere along the mains in the yard to switch engines then move out to = the station a short distance away or keep the same engine assuming no = problems?? I ask this because there were 50 some K4s's alone assigned to = the Canton Engine House. Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:13:59 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary and all; I was refering to the Eastern Ohio Division, sorry for the shortcut! Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "Earl Myers" ; "PRR TALK" Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops >I think Earl is referring to Eastern Div as in Eastern Ohio Div. Locos > running on this div would use CO as their pilot stencil. Not 100% sure > what Cabins would be lettered for for those assigned here. Possibly > Pittsburgh or Ft Wayne, or even Lake. I don't know what the running area > would be but I would guess not very far as these cabins were usually > assigned to a crew. I need informed more as well.....Gary > Work! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:24:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops Subject: RE: [PRR] ECW (New Thread) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:20:53 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] ECW (New Thread) Thread-Index: AcUJ/Bh0zs7fVTSaQyawFi/8DKlHtgAQnSzQ From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Ted Andrews" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2005 22:20:53.0556 (UTC) FILETIME=[9FD2A740:01C50A3E] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Late in its life I've seen pictures of the P70 FAR on the Long Branch in commuter service.=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:14 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] ECW (New Thread) PRR Listers: Based on the possible news/rumor that ECW cars may not be available, one concern of mine was the availability of "core car" kits that are used with Brass Car Sides / Union Station Products / Laser Horizons / etc. models.=20 Does anyone else make core car kits that can be used for the above mentioned car sides? I hope, like everyone on this list, that ECW is just "quiet" and will be producing cars yet again. To be honest with you, I have several of these cars and would like to get more. BTW, where was the P70 FAR used? Was it used system wide or was it just on the NY-Wash. line? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:25:56 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Thread-Index: AcUJk3yK1ruoUIw7T8CrvnqBMQorIAAq8uuQ From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2005 22:25:56.0895 (UTC) FILETIME=[54A082F0:01C50A3F] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I too had good luck with brake fluid.=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of PRRTRAINS@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 7:52 PM To: hanel29@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal I use brake fluid with success. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:02:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/3/2005 4:23:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: was refering to the Eastern Ohio Division, sorry for the shortcut! This really is not the Eastern Ohio Division. It is the Eastern Division of the PFtW&C or simply the Eastern Division. The eastern most point of the Division was at Pittsburgh Union Station at US tower on the eastern approach to the Fort Wayne bridge. At Federal it was joined by the Conemaugh Division. At the OC bridge it connected to the Panhandle Division. The Eastern Division ran to the Crestline Division (not sure where the western Division Point was). Conway yard was located wholly within the Eastern Division as were Island Avenue (Allegheny shops of the PFtW&C) and Jacks Run yards. During 1944 crews most likely were changed at Pitcairn yard as Conway was not a major yard at the time. Freight trains by-passed Pittsburgh Station by using the Eastern Division to the Conemaugh Division to the Brilliant Branch back to the Pittsburgh Division and into Pitcairn yard or alternately taking the Ohio Connection Bridge to the Panhandle Division to the Monongahela Division to the Port Perry branch back to the Pittsburgh Division and into Pitcairn yard. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 19:23:33 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, I now we recently touched on this subject a month or two=20 back. How far East would N6a cabins have gone? Would they=20 have gone as far East as Enola? I don't need scrupulous=20 details, just a simple answer. This is the deciding factor=20 of whether I will keep or sell a Quality Craft N6a kit. Thanx for any help. Best Regards, John York, PA Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Maryland,=20 and Maryland & Pennsylvania. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:36:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/3/05 7:37:25 AM Central Standard Time, b.hom@att.net writes: > Anyone else have a need for these sets? If we can get an idea of the > demand, we can start exploring other options. Hi I have at least one three pack and several single kits, I estimat that I'll need at least 6 sets. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:16:26 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would be interested in 6 sets too Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AlbertSR@aol.com=20 To: b.hom@att.net ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers TT Flat Cars In a message dated 2/3/05 7:37:25 AM Central Standard Time, = b.hom@att.net=20 writes: > Anyone else have a need for these sets? If we can get an idea of = the=20 > demand, we can start exploring other options. Hi I have at least one three pack and several single kits, I estimat that = I'll=20 need at least 6 sets. Al Stump = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Model Power sharks - paint removal Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:53:01 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Many thanks for all the answers to my question. For others interested here is a summary of the answers: BRAKE FLUID - Works good, but don't leave in the fluid too long - the shell could get mushy. PINE SOL - No comments. CHAMELEON Model Paint Stripper (formulated for styrene and most modern Plastics) - Strips fast - can be strained and reused - Doesn't smell as bad as brake fluid. Thank you again, gentlemen ! - Hank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:37:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Tom Vondruska's Passing X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sorry to hear about Tom's passing. I had the pleasure of waking the Madison grade with him a few years back. He was a very nice guy and a knowledgeable historian. May God rest his soul. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:40:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Earl Myers wrote an interesting description of how he visions the Canton yards in the 1940s - this is something that has always confused me - I know that before new Conway and diesels, Canton was a major terminal - but in reading old documents about that area of Ohio on the PRR - Alliance shows up as being a major point. I don't know anything about Alliance except that the C&P crosses the Fort Wayne there. Does any one know if Alliance was a major terminal with facilities etc. Thanks Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:01:26 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dick; Alliance had a bi-directional station at the intersection there with a couple coach tracks behind (east of) the station. There was a coal dock, water towers, roundhouse and turntable and a wye track also in the steam era. This was behind or east of the station and set up for the Ft Wayne east/west tracks. The P Co freight house was a siding farther west and acrossed the C&P tracks and on the north side of the Ft Wayne. In the northeast corner of this intersection of the Ft Wayne and the C&P, there was an 11 track yard paralleling the Ft Wayne but with crossing lead tracks to the C&P. I would say the Alliance station was, during the early years (before the unification of Lines West into the PRR, circa 1921) a major terminal. After that, the big PLW type A roundhouse was built in Canton and so Alliance's services and importance started to diminish. The roundhouse soon disappeared altho the turntable and wye track hung in there for awhile. Some of the Alliance yards are still there as is the intersection of the two roads. It is quite the railfan site these days altho the C&P transition southbound to the eastbound Ft Wayne is the prefered route and the reverse going north. Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR ops > Earl Myers wrote an interesting description of how he visions the Canton > yards in the 1940s - this is something that has always confused me - I > know that > before new Conway and diesels, Canton was a major terminal - but in > reading > old documents about that area of Ohio on the PRR - Alliance shows up as > being a > major point. I don't know anything about Alliance except that the C&P > crosses > the Fort Wayne there. Does any one know if Alliance was a major terminal > with facilities etc. > > Thanks > > Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR ops Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:34:40 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <53.207790d7.2f342c87@aol.com> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dick, et al., I was Ass't Supervisor Track at Canton in the mid 1960. Canton was a major terminal even then although some of it had been retired. Alliance was a minor facility. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 21:52:10 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey Yuze Gize... Before you try a costic product like brake fluide try DENATURED ALCHOL first. I have a long cylinder made of Tupperware that I stole from my wife that I believe she bought to store spaghetti in. I slide my shell in (it works perfect for HO Shells) put the lid on tight and fill the kitchen sink with warm/hot water, put the cylinder in turning it frequently. This helps "push" the denatured alchol and speeds up the stipping... If this doesn't do it then I look to EASY OFF oven cleaner and repeat the steps... This products will not soften the plastic or as is common with some plastics and brake fluide make it very brittle. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:13:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John Frantz asks: > I now we recently touched on this subject a month or two > back. How far East would N6a cabins have gone? Would they > have gone as far East as Enola? I don't need scrupulous > details, just a simple answer. This is the deciding factor > of whether I will keep or sell a Quality Craft N6a kit. John, Never say never, but basically? never... Now, see if you can trade that N6a for an ND kit. These little guys did show up in the east, and then there is the N4 which was an ND with extra length and the NDA which was an ND with trucks... Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:26:08 -0500 From: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com Subject: [PRR] RE: Double deck lamb shipment. From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy stock car routes Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:31:09 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.81, clamav-milter version 0.81b on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know if the Pennsy regularly ran stock cars on the Chautauqua Branch or P&E? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:59:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce, You're right - never say never. There aren't many photos of N6A cabins. However, I have photos of them in Hagerstown, Md, in Ebenezer, NY and in the shops in Altoona. I don't know if they had tunnel clearance problems everywhere, or just on the Panhandle Division. Of course, they could get east without going through tunnels, via the Low Grade Branch. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "John Frantz" Cc: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments | John Frantz asks: | > I now we recently touched on this subject a month or two | > back. How far East would N6a cabins have gone? Would they | > have gone as far East as Enola? I don't need scrupulous | > details, just a simple answer. This is the deciding factor | > of whether I will keep or sell a Quality Craft N6a kit. | | John, | | Never say never, but basically? never... Now, see if you can trade that | N6a for an ND kit. These little guys did show up in the east, and then | there is the N4 which was an ND with extra length and the NDA which was an | ND with trucks... | | Regards | Bruce | | Bruce Smith | Auburn, AL | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: [PRR] D78 Diners Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:07:01 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Spring 2003 Keystone did, in fact, do an extensive article entitled the D78 diners of Lines West. It was authored by Chuck Blardone. But there was an earlier edition - the Winter 1985 "Keystone" - which dedicated nearly the entire issue to PRR steel (heavyweight) diners in the D70 class. It too was authored by Chuck Blardone. Together, the two articles cover nearly every variation on a theme of D70 and D78 diner operated on the Pennsy. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:38:53 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR F39 Flatcars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Fellow SPF's: In regards to decaling your Walthers plastic or Overland brass HO 75' Pennsy Tructrain Flatcars, Middle Division produced a great decal set specifically for these cars, # HFL-1. However, I have not been able to find any available for sale within the past year, they all seem to have vanished off the face of the earth. The set included the large "PENNSY" and "TRUCTRAIN" lettering for the signboards that were located in the center of the cars when this TOFC Service began in 1954. The set also included "TTX" lettering if you wanted to decal your cars for that era. I spoke with Nick Seaman about 9 months ago at a train show in Timonium Maryland and he said he had plans on reissuing this set sometime in the future. I am trying to complete a twenty car train of these cars with all the correct Pennsy 28, 30 and 32 foot trailers of the 1954-56 era as well as all the trucking companies that used the PRR to haul their trailers. So far I have 12 completed with all correct trailers, tiedowns, etc. These cars are probably my favorite class of PRR Freight Car. Not only would I love to see this decal set reproduced, but I would also like to see someone do a decal set that has all the different lettering styles to decal Pennsy Trailers. I plan on placing my TT-1 Tructrain on display at this years annual convention in Harrisburg. Sincerely, Gus Minardi HO PRR Freak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F39 Flatcars Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:24:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I seem to recall that the Middle Divison set might have had enough material to letter more than one car? Or I am thinking this because the set has more than one lettering scheme? Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 3:38 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR F39 Flatcars > Hello Fellow SPF's: > > In regards to decaling your Walthers plastic or Overland brass > HO > 75' Pennsy Tructrain Flatcars, Middle Division produced a great decal set > specifically for these cars, # HFL-1. However, I have not been able to > find any > available for sale within the past year, they all seem to have vanished > off the > face of the earth. The set included the large "PENNSY" and "TRUCTRAIN" > lettering for the signboards that were located in the center of the cars > when this > TOFC Service began in 1954. The set also included "TTX" lettering if you > wanted to decal your cars for that era. I spoke with Nick Seaman about 9 > months > ago at a train show in Timonium Maryland and he said he had plans on > reissuing > this set sometime in the future. I am trying to complete a twenty car > train > of these cars with all the correct Pennsy 28, 30 and 32 foot trailers of > the > 1954-56 era as well as all the trucking companies that used the PRR to > haul > their trailers. So far I have 12 completed with all correct trailers, > tiedowns, > etc. These cars are probably my favorite class of PRR Freight Car. Not > only > would I love to see this decal set reproduced, but I would also like to > see > someone do a decal set that has all the different lettering styles to > decal > Pennsy Trailers. I plan on placing my TT-1 Tructrain on display at this > years > annual convention in Harrisburg. > > > > Sincerely, > > > Gus Minardi > > HO PRR Freak > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 05:52:34 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:12:46 -0600 To: Bob Johnson , "'PRR-Talk' LIST" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:59 PM, Bob Johnson wrote: > Bruce, > > You're right - never say never. There aren't many photos of N6A > cabins. > However, I have photos of them in Hagerstown, Md, in Ebenezer, NY and > in the > shops in Altoona. > > I don't know if they had tunnel clearance problems everywhere, or just > on > the Panhandle Division. Of course, they could get east without going > through tunnels, via the Low Grade Branch. > > Bob Johnson Bob, Interesting! Do you know when these photos were taken? The conclusion of many discussions of this over the years has been that the N6 fleet (a or b) rarely if ever travelled east of Pittsburgh until shortly before WWII. Of course, by that time, most of the N6as were converted. With the N5 fleet being built, the N6bs were less and less likely to show up on much beyond divisional or local trains so it would be interesting to know when these cabins travelled east. BTW, does Ebenezer really count as Lines East? Interestingly, Gary Mittner's pages show a bunch of H9s with Lines West tenders there circa 1939-42. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk' LIST" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:20:09 -0600 To: Bill Daniels X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Hmmmmm....seems if I recall correctly there is a photo > by William Moedinger of a N6a somewhere back east in > the early '40's (behind a H9s consol) in Pennsy Power > I or II. I've lost my copies some years ago so I can't > be sure. If so, it most likely is a rare photo. Bill, It might be in another book. I checked the H class sections in PP1-3 as well as the cabin car section in PP3 and did not find the photo. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:28:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, N I think the low grade Bob is referring to is the Low Grade that connects Western Pa with the flat lands of the eastern border of central/northern Ohio (no tunnels as I can think off). This would be the old PY&A. It starts out at Rochester Pa I believe and heads in the direction towards Cleveland. This would be one route were wide cuupola N6a's could get east/west, avoiding the tunnels on the Pan Handle and Byard Branch....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] N6a Assignments Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:45:13 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B47595@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] N6a Assignments Thread-Index: AcUKxbor+cbQzzyMTK6MPDned1Nc5QAAid6Q From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Gary Mittner" , "robert netzlof" Cc: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The "Low Grade" line I seem to remember, ran from Red Bank to Driftwood! I AM POSITIVE it got its name from the quality of the track work it embodied! Bill Volkmer PRR Historian (not qualified) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:29 AM To: robert netzlof Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments Bob, N I think the low grade Bob is referring to is the Low Grade that connects Western Pa with the flat lands of the eastern border of central/northern Ohio (no tunnels as I can think off). This would be the old PY&A. It starts out at Rochester Pa I believe and heads in the direction towards Cleveland. This would be one route were wide cuupola N6a's could get east/west, avoiding the tunnels on the Pan Handle and Byard Branch....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:03:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Crew/Cabin Car Assignment X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Folks, Were PRR freight conductors assigned a cabin car on more or less of a permanent basis? If so, does anybody know when the practice started and stopped? I'm more interested in the East (of Altoona) than the West. Thanks, BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Crew/Cabin Car Assignment - When? X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:11:30 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B475A5@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Crew/Cabin Car Assignment - When? Thread-Index: AcUK0s5d51kmy2V4TXW7bV4Nwa8ETQAAKJGA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: Cc: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My guess for the advent of pooled cabins would be about 1963 when the second generation diesels were delivered and more and more power was able to operate through crew change points without going to the pit for repairs. We had a program at South Philadelphia Car Shop, among other places, to outfit the cabins with oil-fired stoves and aluminum sash windows. This was a mandate from the Union in exchange for the company's right to run pool cabins. As they came out of the shop, they had their cupola's painted gray and shortly thereafter yellow to signify a pool cabin. After the mainline received their renovated cabins, the branch lines and the yard crews received them and the excess of steel cabins spelled the demise of the fabled Mae Wests. Bill Volkmer Historian Second Class -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cprrboss@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:04 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Crew/Cabin Car Assignment Hello Folks, Were PRR freight conductors assigned a cabin car on more or less of a=20 permanent basis? If so, does anybody know when the practice started and stopped? =20 I'm more interested in the East (of Altoona) than the West. Thanks, BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:15:01 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce and all, N6a #980837 was photographed by the PRR's official photographer in the shops on 11-13-1939. The date is written on the negative and appears in the photograph. I checked the Historical Record Card for this car and verified that it was turned out of the Altoona Car Shops, 12th St. on 11-16-1939. The photo was taken early in its shopping and still shows the old, very faded lettering, which indicated that it had been assigned to the Cleveland Div. By the way, this car was not rebuilt to N6b at that time. The records show that it was rebuilt to N6b on 12-26-1945 in Pitcairn. N6a #980751 was photographed at Ebenezer by John Prophet on 11-25-1939. John was very careful about identifying the date and place of his photographs. This car was freshly painted and showed the assignment as Cleveland Div. N6a #980157 was photographed in Hagerstown by Harold Geissel in 1936. The car shows a freshly painted repack date of 8-16-36. It was assigned to the Philadelphia Div. This was in somewhat worn and weathered lettering, so obviously the car had been assigned there for a while. I do not agree that N6a and N6b cars "rarely if ever traveled east of Pittsburgh until shortly before WWII", unless you mean the Pittsburgh Division, not the City of Pittsburgh. What John Prophet and others told me was that after the consolidation of Lines East and Lines West and the formation of the Central Region on 3-1-1920 there was a gradual movement of both locomotives and cabin cars beyond the old boundary, first into the divisions immediately adjacent to Pittsburgh and Erie, and later moving further afield. It is true that this was a gradual process, but I wouldn't call it rare, especially in periods of greater traffic as in the late 1920's and in 1936, 1937 and the onset of WWII in Europe in 1939. We lack photos of this from the earlier period because there just weren't many railfan photographers in the 1920's and very few of them bothered to take pictures of cars. Even 1930's photographs of cars are relatively scarce compared to the post WWII years. Best regards, Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" To: "Bob Johnson" ; "'PRR-Talk' LIST" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a Assignments | | On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:59 PM, Bob Johnson wrote: | | > Bruce, | > | > You're right - never say never. There aren't many photos of N6A | > cabins. | > However, I have photos of them in Hagerstown, Md, in Ebenezer, NY and | > in the | > shops in Altoona. | > | > I don't know if they had tunnel clearance problems everywhere, or just | > on | > the Panhandle Division. Of course, they could get east without going | > through tunnels, via the Low Grade Branch. | > | > Bob Johnson | | Bob, | | Interesting! Do you know when these photos were taken? | | The conclusion of many discussions of this over the years has been that | the N6 fleet (a or b) rarely if ever travelled east of Pittsburgh until | shortly before WWII. Of course, by that time, most of the N6as were | converted. With the N5 fleet being built, the N6bs were less and less | likely to show up on much beyond divisional or local trains so it would | be interesting to know when these cabins travelled east. | | BTW, does Ebenezer really count as Lines East? Interestingly, Gary Mittner's pages | show a bunch of H9s with Lines West tenders there circa 1939-42. | | Regards | Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:27:18 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1443-42038694-65@storefull-3111.bay.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: The Low Grade. There were several routes referred to as the low-grade. The main one was the Low Grade Line - a.k.a. the Allegheny Valley RR from Red Bank to Driftwood (110 miles). In the 1960s the line from Rochester to New Castle (PY&A - Lake Div.) was the Low Grade Branch, the line from Red Bank to Driftwood (AV - Northern Div.) was the Low Grade Secondary. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] N6a Assignments X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:31:18 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B475AD@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] N6a Assignments Thread-Index: AcUK1oqSu7bACaH+T7itnW73nuOTwwAAFCVA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Al Buchan" , "Gary Mittner" , "robert netzlof" Cc: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I STILL maintain the term had nothing to do with the track gradient in the 1960s, it was the track CONDITION! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:27 AM To: 'Gary Mittner'; 'robert netzlof' Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] N6a Assignments Re: The Low Grade. There were several routes referred to as the low-grade. The main one was the Low Grade Line - a.k.a. the Allegheny Valley RR from Red Bank to Driftwood (110 miles). In the 1960s the line from Rochester to New Castle (PY&A - Lake Div.) was the Low Grade Branch, the line from Red Bank to Driftwood (AV - Northern Div.) was the Low Grade Secondary. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] N6a Assignments Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:00:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748B475AD@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: I STILL maintain the term had nothing to do with the track gradient in the 1960s, it was the track CONDITION! Many tracks (including mainlines) during the 1960s and 1970s could be classified as low grade on account of their condition. The fact remains these lines were originally named as such on account of their favorable grades. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F39 Flatcars Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 17:07:26 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gus, thanks for the information. For those of you in the area (or if you're not, can get away to Harrisburg for a weekend), I highly recommend you come to this year's Annual Meeting, not only for the program, but to see Gus' TT-1. We've run photos of a couple of the cars and trailers in TKM, but photos really don't do the models justice (the train is over 10 feet long without locomotives and cabin!). 2005 Annual Meeting Information: http://www.prrths.com/2004%20convention/PRR_2004_Annual.html Photo of Gus Minardi's Class F39 flatcars: http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler_NO09.htm Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:11:15 +0000 >From: "Ernest L. Clausing" >Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Ashland Avenue, Chicago >Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:28:27 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm modeling a portion of Lucknow, just north (railroad west) of Harrisburg. The area includes the Lucknow Scrap Dock, a MW Storehouse, and some other entities. I've noticed on a 1950 diagram, just in front of the MW Storehouse, is a small square with the label "CANAL" (in quotes). This is how other towers are labeled, so I have to ask, was this indeed some kind of control point? It sits fairly close to where Yard 4 and Yard 5 meet, but it seems too far away to be related to any hump activity. Was it a tower? Maybe one of those yard towers that's just a little shack on a ladder? It does not appear on the 1929 diagram. Thanks for any help you may provide. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Sheets" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Sharks - Paint Removal Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:04:55 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com >If this doesn't do it then I look to EASY OFF oven cleaner and repeat the steps...< Just be aware that EASY OFF is toxic to some pets, especially birds, and I guess that's enough for me to be extra cautious also. John -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris's mail" Subject: [PRR] C Liner cooling fans Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:44:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On pg 339 of the Withers Diesel Locomotive Pictorial series on FM locomotives it shows a top down view of the radiator fans on a C Liner B unit. The photo shows four circular cutouts for the fans in the car roof however it seems as though one of radiator openings is filled in with sheet metal. There is the opening, a wire mesh over the top of the opening but there are no fan blades visible. Did these engines only have three fans installed? Is it the same for both the A & B units? I remember reading on the list a long time ago that these units only had three fans but I assumed there were only three radiator opening vice four. Would these be 36" or 48" fans? Please enlighten me oh wise-ones!! thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris's mail" Subject: [PRR] H30 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:59:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What would be the appropriate running board for an H30? wooden or metal. the era would be 1954 - 1957 Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] C Liner cooling fans Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:59:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Kris, The PRR C-Liners were 1600 HP. The units were available with engines up to 2400 HP, using the same carbodies. The 1600 HP radiators only needed 3 fans, the 2400 required all four, Don't know about the 2000 hp units. They were 8, 10, and 12 cylinders respectively. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris's mail" To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 5:44 PM Subject: [PRR] C Liner cooling fans > On pg 339 of the Withers Diesel Locomotive Pictorial series on FM > locomotives it shows a top down view of the radiator fans on a C Liner B > unit. The photo shows four circular cutouts for the fans in the car roof > however it seems as though one of radiator openings is filled in with > sheet metal. There is the opening, a wire mesh over the top of the > opening but there are no fan blades visible. Did these engines only have > three fans installed? Is it the same for both the A & B units? I remember > reading on the list a long time ago that these units only had three fans > but I assumed there were only three radiator opening vice four. > > Would these be 36" or 48" fans? > > Please enlighten me oh wise-ones!! > > thanks, > > Kris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Prototype photos used for modeling purposes Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:00:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Is it me??? I have used this website often to view prototype photos for roster and consist information (prototype operations). http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html I have also used this site for modeling info, name, numbers, window arrangements and truck identification. Recently, I have not been able to get on the site. When I use a search engine, I get http://www.davesrailpix.com/ an electric railroad site. ( A good one) Can anyone give me a new web address or tell me how to access this site. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:26:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have a PRR "Diagram of Yard,Harrisburg Pa. July 1,1950" map and it shows the location of CANAL. It's an interlocking between "No. 5 Yard" and "No. 4 Yard-Westbound Classification" It's not marked "remote" from Rockville or Harris Towers so it probably a switch cabin with hand thrown switches. CANAL is between mp 108 and 109 on the eastside of the No. 4 Yard. This map shows a watertank and waterplug in the area of CANAL. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:34:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dave: Thanks for your reply. I must have confused your site with another site which has passenger car photos including the PRR. Sorry to the group: I must have Dave's site confused w/ another one. This is the site I am inquiring about, sorry!!! http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/m/jmlaboda/PassIndexes.htm All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mewhinney" To: "Weldon" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes > Weldon, > My site used to have the railfan.net address, but I moved it over a year > ago to http://www.davesrailpix.com/ It's the same site, but with now > over 22,000 pages. > Dave > > Weldon wrote: > >> Is it me??? I have used this website often to view prototype photos for >> roster and consist information (prototype operations). >> >> http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html >> >> I have also used this site for modeling info, name, numbers, window >> arrangements and truck identification. >> >> Recently, I have not been able to get on the site. When I use a search >> engine, I get http://www.davesrailpix.com/ an electric railroad site. >> ( A good one) >> >> Can anyone give me a new web address or tell me how to access this site. >> >> All the best to you and yours Weldon >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:46:06 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] TT decals F 39 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, I would be interested in 9-12 sets myself. Thanks Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:34:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes Dave: Thanks for your reply. I must have confused your site with another site which has passenger car photos including the PRR. Sorry to the group: I must have Dave's site confused w/ another one. This is the site I am inquiring about, sorry!!! http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/m/jmlaboda/PassIndexes.htm All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mewhinney" To: "Weldon" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes > Weldon, > My site used to have the railfan.net address, but I moved it over a year > ago to http://www.davesrailpix.com/ It's the same site, but with now > over 22,000 pages. > Dave > > Weldon wrote: > >> Is it me??? I have used this website often to view prototype photos for >> roster and consist information (prototype operations). >> >> http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html >> >> I have also used this site for modeling info, name, numbers, window >> arrangements and truck identification. >> >> Recently, I have not been able to get on the site. When I use a search >> engine, I get http://www.davesrailpix.com/ an electric railroad site. >> ( A good one) >> >> Can anyone give me a new web address or tell me how to access this site. >> >> All the best to you and yours Weldon >> >> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Rcy2bD/UOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:00:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Prototype photos used for modeling purposes Is it me??? I have used this website often to view prototype photos for roster and consist information (prototype operations). http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html I have also used this site for modeling info, name, numbers, window arrangements and truck identification. Recently, I have not been able to get on the site. When I use a search engine, I get http://www.davesrailpix.com/ an electric railroad site. ( A good one) Can anyone give me a new web address or tell me how to access this site. All the best to you and yours Weldon ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Rcy2bD/UOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] H30 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:21:57 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <000a01c50b0d$2109fbf0$1200a8c0@kollar1> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One of the most comprehensive articles every written about the PRR class H30 and H30a appeared in the March 2004 TKM, No 8, pp 21-30. I suggest you do some research on that before you tackle an H30 or H30a.. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Subject: [PRR] Torpedo placing machines Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 22:57:14 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I seem to remember in PRR Atlantic Div special instructions that a = torpedoe placing machine was in service at Pennsauken NJ on the Bay Head = Line. Any member have info or pics of such a devise and how it = functioned? Boomer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:26:23 -0500 From: Martin Harriss Subject: [PRR] Re: "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Subject: "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg > From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:44 -0500 > > I'm modeling a portion of Lucknow, just north (railroad west) of > Harrisburg. The area includes the Lucknow Scrap Dock, a MW Storehouse, > and some other entities. > > I've noticed on a 1950 diagram, just in front of the MW Storehouse, is > a small square with the label "CANAL" (in quotes). This is how other > towers are labeled, so I have to ask, was this indeed some kind of > control point? > > It sits fairly close to where Yard 4 and Yard 5 meet, but it seems too > far away to be related to any hump activity. > > Was it a tower? Maybe one of those yard towers that's just a little > shack on a ladder? > > It does not appear on the 1929 diagram. > > Thanks for any help you may provide. Jerry, Went and looked at a 1950 Harrisburg map that I have. On my map, there are several of these locations marked. In addition to CANAL, there are these: LANE at the apex of the WB hump; GI-8 just west (by compass) of LANE, by the WB freight track; CLAY at the apex of the EB hump; VISION between the EB relay yard and the EB receiving yard; REILY between the engine terminal and the east end of the EB class yard; and DOCK, to the east of Harrisburg passenger station, near the Dock Street overhead bridge. The REILY location has the initials "D.E" in parens after it (Diesel Engine?) There are similar locations marked on a similar map of Enola that I have. On my map, these locations/buildings are donoted by filled in rectangles, whereas towers are denoted by open rectangles with "roof lines" drawn in. My guess, like yours, is that these were some kind of yard office, or maybe a switch tender's shanty. LANE and CLAY are surely candidates for hump control towers. Maybe the extra names I've given will jog someone's memory. Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:27:25 -0500 To: Martin Harriss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 4, 2005, at 11:26 PM, Martin Harriss wrote: > Went and looked at a 1950 Harrisburg map that I have. On my map, > there are several of these locations marked. In addition to CANAL, > there are these: Yes, I didn't mean to imply that CANAL was the only one. In fact, I believe "Triumph II" has a photo of GI-8. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] TT decals F 39 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:01:37 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just a little behind in reading all the good stuff this - sign me up for 6 platforms worth. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Building the next generation of Leaders, support your local troop! Troop 53 - Maytown PA Harvest District of the Pennsylvania Dutch Council Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:24:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/04/05 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Friends, I posted this message a while back and probably missed the reply. Has anyone heard if and when BLI will be releasing its next PRR prototype, if so what? Thanks in advance for the info. Yours in modeling, John Liebeskind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:31:33 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Designation for switch key initials List, Can anyone list the different regions & divisions initials that are stamped on switch keys. Some I do know but not all. Thanks to all in advance. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Rcy2bD/UOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joel Shaw" Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:20:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Designation for switch key initials This information was published in the "Key, Lock, and Lantern" several years ago plus. If no one else has access to this information, I can dig it out. Thx. Joel R. Shaw ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:31 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Designation for switch key initials > > List, > Can anyone list the different regions & divisions initials that are > stamped on switch keys. Some I do know but not all. Thanks to all in > advance. > > Pat McKinney > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EpW3eD/3MnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Kunkle" Subject: [PRR] Stewart Ore Car Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:36:27 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, Can anyone on the list give me some pointers on assembling the cars. I = started work on mine and seemed to be all thumbs with the ladders. When = I got one end installed, I would have problems with the other end. Any = hints or suggestions? THanks. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:09:01 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Finishing the Walthers Pullmans From: "michael hmel" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Sharks - paint removal Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:12:32 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List , I sent this post a few days ago but got no response . I would appreciate any help in this matter , hopefully somewill will respond ! =20 " While on the topic of Sharks ....can anyone point me to a web address = of good Shark pics ? I want to add train phone / antenna's and need to = know the location of and the number of supports ( I count 8 on a pic I = have ) . I have two sets of Keil-line ( O scale ) antenna supports and = am looking for additional set , it appears that they are out of stock , = anyone know of a hobbystore that stocks them ? As always , thanks for any help anyone can give me . " Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: abendschein@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] C&O, PRR, and US&S CTC machines Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 15:01:39 +0000 From: "Wayne Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stewart Ore Car Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:47:34 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Howdy Bob: After assembling the first 4 of many, I started to glued the ladders as a sub-assemble, then attached to the car. It is easier to glue up the pins on the ladders and keep them nice and straight too. I do one end and let it dry for a couple of minutes, while working on the next 3. By the time I get all 4 ladders on one end done they are ready to flip and install all the good stuff on the other end. I really enjoy these cars. The cast tube is a great idea that looks good and provides enough weight so that extra weight is not needed. I'm thinking of a second set of these cars, but the Port Road really did not have that much ore traffic on it. I replace the wheelsets too. Good luck. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Building the next generation of Leaders, support your local troop! Troop 53 - Maytown PA Harvest District of the Pennsylvania Dutch Council Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Robert Kunkle Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 1:36 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Stewart Ore Car All, Can anyone on the list give me some pointers on assembling the cars. I started work on mine and seemed to be all thumbs with the ladders. When I got one end installed, I would have problems with the other end. Any hints or suggestions? THanks. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:38:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Finishing the Walthers Pullmans From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug sez: > I am finishing up several Walthers B&O and PRR 12-1 > Pullmans. I ended up putting a glossy finish below > the belt rail so the decals would go on better. After > decaling, I had to figure out how to blend the flat > finish of the Walthers car with the now-glossy area. > I tried the old standby, Testors Dullcote, and that > comes very close to dead flat when I apply it; the > cars look quite good, and the reflectance is almost > identical. Doug and friends, I've struggled with this issue as well. For me, the bottom line is that passenger cars just aren't flat, yet flat hides decals the best. Gloss on the other hand is too glossy and looks toylike. In between the two is satin. I have found that Ployscale Satin does a pretty nice job of covering decal film while keeping a bit of a shine. For larger decals such as PENNSYLVANIA, it is helpful to cut each letter apart. This doesn't solve the problem Doug is describing though, because the Walthers cars are dead flat. I might try spraying the entire model (windows and all) with satin. I am a little worried that this might cause fogging of the windows, so an alternative would be to spray the model with Future Acrylic floor wax. This is apparently the base for most military modelers to decal on AND can be uised to "rescue" scratched windows... I'm still figuring out how to spray it. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:32:02 GMT Subject: [PRR] Penn Texas logo From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Finishing the Walthers Pullmans Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:54:37 -0500 From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:41:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group: I'm feeling proud of myself at the moment!!! I'm sure some will shoot me down, but I'll enjoy the moment anyway. Using a backdoor approach I FOUND another web address for the photo site I was looking for. What used to be http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html is now!!! http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/ John Barlow replied > It isn't just you, Weldon. I tried the first site-ZIP (This page cannot be > displayed)! The second is a traction website. > > John Barlow (jdenver4150@yahoo.com) > > Weldon wrote: > > Is it me??? I have used this website often to view prototype photos for > roster and consist information (prototype operations) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] M1a detail parts question in HO scale Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:01:15 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Feb 2005 00:01:19.0835 (UTC) FILETIME=[516ADAB0:01C50D71] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To the List- I have a question about the feedwater heater mixing tank for an M1a model in HO scale. Who makes a brass casting that is correct in HO scale and does anyone have a part number for this item. I want to replace one on a West Side Models brass M1a that is grossly oversized. The current Bowser part I have in stock is not at the detail level that I would like to use. The other item I would like to replace is the stack. Any ideas on a correct brass part? If anyone can give me a pointer I would appreciate it very much. Thanks in Advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:41:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes Group: I'm feeling proud of myself at the moment!!! I'm sure some will shoot me down, but I'll enjoy the moment anyway. Using a backdoor approach I FOUND another web address for the photo site I was looking for. What used to be http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html is now!!! http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/ John Barlow replied > It isn't just you, Weldon. I tried the first site-ZIP (This page cannot be > displayed)! The second is a traction website. > > John Barlow (jdenver4150@yahoo.com) > > Weldon wrote: > > Is it me??? I have used this website often to view prototype photos for > roster and consist information (prototype operations) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:34:06 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Was it this list that I saw talk about a man down south buying up the = rights to RR logos and names? If so, can someone send me the details? = On the anthracite list I belong to there are parties interested in = knowing who owns the CNJ logo rights. Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:09:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks Dave, I'm going down in flames!!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mewhinney" To: "Weldon" Cc: ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes > Weldon, > Consider yourself shot down. I'm Dave of Dave's Rail Pix. My site that > used to be on railfan.net is now on it's own server system at: > http://www.davesrailpix.com/ > The trainweb site is not my electric railroad site. > Dave > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:09:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes Thanks Dave, I'm going down in flames!!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mewhinney" To: "Weldon" Cc: ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes > Weldon, > Consider yourself shot down. I'm Dave of Dave's Rail Pix. My site that > used to be on railfan.net is now on it's own server system at: > http://www.davesrailpix.com/ > The trainweb site is not my electric railroad site. > Dave > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:14:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff, It was here. I was referring to someone filing trademark applications for some "abandoned" and some not "abandoned" railroad names. Among the names was the MKT, I think UP might have a say on this one, and C&O, which CSX might have a thing or two to add. Seem to recall the fellow's name was Ruocchio or similar. Anyway, see http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm and do a search for railroads you are interested in. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Smith" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership > Was it this list that I saw talk about a man down south buying up the > rights to RR logos and names? If so, can someone send me the details? On > the anthracite list I belong to there are parties interested in knowing > who owns the CNJ logo rights. > > Thanks, > > Jeff Smith > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:33:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com LAST POST ON THIS SUBJECT!!! My apologies AGAIN!!! This was the site I am inquiring about, sorry!!! http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/m/jmlaboda/PassIndexes.htm It is now http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/ Sorry again!!! to Dave and all All the best to you and yours Weldon Greiger ---- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mewhinney" To: "Weldon" Cc: ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes > Weldon, > Consider yourself shot down. I'm Dave of Dave's Rail Pix. My site that > used to be on railfan.net is now on it's own server system at: > http://www.davesrailpix.com/ > The trainweb site is not my electric railroad site. > Dave > > Weldon wrote: > >> Group: I'm feeling proud of myself at the moment!!! I'm sure some will >> shoot me down, but I'll enjoy the moment anyway. >> >> Using a backdoor approach I FOUND another web address for the photo site >> I was looking for. >> >> What used to be >> >> http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html >> >> is now!!! >> >> http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/ >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 23:33:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes LAST POST ON THIS SUBJECT!!! My apologies AGAIN!!! This was the site I am inquiring about, sorry!!! http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/m/jmlaboda/PassIndexes.htm It is now http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/ Sorry again!!! to Dave and all All the best to you and yours Weldon Greiger ---- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mewhinney" To: "Weldon" Cc: ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Prototype photos used for modeling purposes > Weldon, > Consider yourself shot down. I'm Dave of Dave's Rail Pix. My site that > used to be on railfan.net is now on it's own server system at: > http://www.davesrailpix.com/ > The trainweb site is not my electric railroad site. > Dave > > Weldon wrote: > >> Group: I'm feeling proud of myself at the moment!!! I'm sure some will >> shoot me down, but I'll enjoy the moment anyway. >> >> Using a backdoor approach I FOUND another web address for the photo site >> I was looking for. >> >> What used to be >> >> http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/index.html >> >> is now!!! >> >> http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/ >> >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Rcy2bD/UOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:52:54 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg et. al., If you check the site for the Pennsylvania Railroad, you will see his application is still very much alive. On March 1st, it will be published for opposition comment. If there is no opposition, he will receive a registration number have the exclusive rights to "Pennsylvania Railroad." Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:04:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, February 8, 2005, at 10:52 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > If you check the site for the Pennsylvania Railroad, you will see his > application is still very much alive. On March 1st, it will be > published for opposition comment. If there is no opposition, he will > receive a registration number have the exclusive rights to > "Pennsylvania Railroad." Think anyone will object? ;-) Can you object online? Figure the list membership could have a pretty fun day if so. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:13:02 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership From: Frederick Ripley From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:18:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <1A8DD898-79EB-11D9-8ABF-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The proper attorneys that handle these matters for the PRR predecessors have been notified. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:23:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, February 8, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Since this apparently remains a (ridiculous) issue, can someone do the > public service of posting the info on March 1? I am sure that many of > us, myself included, would be delighted to write the appropriate people > to try to stop this nonsense. Here's where you can check the status... http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78322908 Does anyone know how to post opposition? Looks like it gets published in a journal on 3/1, but it does not look like there is an opportunity for online opposition. Does anyone know if the Society will be filing opposition as a group? Or if the PRR successor corporation will be? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:25:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, February 8, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Al Buchan wrote: > The proper attorneys that handle these matters for the PRR predecessors > have been notified. Thanks, Al... We just cross-posted... I asked and you answered at the same time. (Are you taking over the Carnac role for Carson?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:50:08 -0000 From: "benjaminfrank_hom" Subject: [PRR] Pacific Northwest Railroad Prototype Modelers Meet Content-Length: 1799 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 66.100.141.179 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You are invited to attend: Rails By The Bay A Pacific Northwest Railroad Prototype Modelers Meet Saturday, June 25, 2005, 9am to 6pm Bellingham, Washington Presented by: Brian Rutherford, Rick Selby, and Richard Yaremko This Railroad Prototype Modeling (RPM) event is open to all modelers and will feature railroads of the Pacific Northwest, but models of all railroads are welcome. You've heard about it, now come see what RPM and Free-Mo are about! Join in a full day of activities including: =A0 =95 Model displays and dioramas =A0 =95 Clinics (topics to be announced) =A0 =95 Free-Mo modular layout display area =A0 =95 Social discussion area =A0 Where: The Best Western Lakeway Inn 714 Lakeway Dr., Bellingham, WA 98226 Located at Exit 253, right off Interstate 5 Hotel: 360-671-1011, http://www.bellingham-hotel.com/ =A0 This event is open to all model railroaders. We encourage attendees to display their model work (finished and in-progress), to learn and share modeling tips and techniques, and to socialize with other members of the Pacific Northwest model railroading community. You are encouraged to bring your locomotives, rolling stock, structures, vehicles, dioramas, and Free-Mo modules to display them in a non-competitive environment. You will also have the opportunity to meet and socialize with your fellow hobbyist to discuss modeling techniques, the prototype, and any other topics relating to prototype railroad modeling. Mark your calendar now! Admission is $15, with a discount price of $12 for those who bring at least one model or module for display. For questions or more information, see: Web site: http://home.centurytel.net/pnw_rpm/ Email: pnw_rpm 'at' yahoo 'dot' com New Yahoo Discussion Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/pnw_rpm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:55:02 -0500 From: Rob McKeever Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership X-AOL-IP: 66.92.147.186 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com From the link, it appears the application is only meant to secure the mark for the use in the Model RR industry, no doubt in an attempt to copy what UP & CSX have done in collecting licensing fees. It seems to me, that if PRRTHS contains 'modeling' somewhere in its mission statement, that would be grounds to object on prior use of the mark for the same purpose as the application. Rob McKeever Manassas VA robmckii@aol.com RF&PRR Historical Society: http://www.rfandp.org/ 2nd quarter meeting May 14 to adopt bylaws, Spotsyvania, Va. (The northern portion of the line was once the Alexandria & Fredericksburg, under PRR control prior to Pot Yard) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:54:25 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think that the guy filing the request used to be president of the Train Collectors Association. John Ryan > > >>Greg et. al., >> >>If you check the site for the Pennsylvania Railroad, you will see his >>application is still very much alive. On March 1st, it will be published for >>opposition comment. If there is no opposition, he will receive a registration >>number have the exclusive rights to "Pennsylvania Railroad." >> >>Rich Orr >> >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > -- Securities and Advisory Services offered through NEXT Financial Group, Inc. - Member NASD/SIPC Ryan Hess Morais Financial Associates, Inc. and NEXT Financial Group, Inc. are not affiliated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:07:49 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: >Greg et. al., > >If you check the site for the Pennsylvania Railroad, you will see his application is still very much alive. On March 1st, it will be published for opposition comment. If there is no opposition, he will receive a registration number have the exclusive rights to "Pennsylvania Railroad." > >Rich Orr >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > OK. So how do we, as a group, or as individuals, go about "opposing" him? Or is this a matter for the lawyers? How about telling us what we can do. Or is this a good thing? Somehow, I can't think of why the PRRTHS doesn't have "exclusive right". Or am I missing something? Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 Organic Gardener. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:15:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I just received a call from the attorney that handles this and she advised me they will be filling an opposition on March1 on behalf of the PRR predecessors. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:49:39 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First, I apologize for "jumping in" without reading all the subsequent messages. But, Jerry, that website doesn't tell us what to do. Or was that not the intent? It actually didn't tell us much, other than the idiots address and phone numbers. Why does this world have to have such people? Can't someone put this guy in an asylum? More importantly. Gyze! What can we do? Or should we just forget it? Al, you said some lawyers are looking into it. Can you give more info? Details? And back to what I said. What can we do. If no eMail, then how about snail mail. Can someone post a "sample" letter? And then, we can copy/paste it to Doc. And then, add our personal info, and print and snail mail. I know of several sites that post "sample" letters that I can do this. I've done it, and mailed to the "right" people. Mostly Senators and Congressmen. For those of over 50, and belong to AARP, y'all know what I mean. I am sure the "huge" numbers of readers of PRR-Talk would proudly do their/our part. We all know that Mass Mailings do get the attention of the "powers that be". Thanks to all, but especially Jerry for letting us vent and have this Very Important Discussion. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 Organic Gardener. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:16:59 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <420909C3.2040905@isp.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: Al, you said some lawyers are looking into it. Can you give more info? Details? It's not just some lawyers. I said it's the law firm that represents the PRR and PC predecessors. And as I said previously, they will be filing an opposition on March 1. There's no more details to report. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:10:25 -0600 To: "'PRR-Talk' LIST" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Morgan Bilbo wrote: > But, Jerry, that website doesn't tell us what to do. Or was that not > the intent? It actually didn't tell us much, other than the idiots > address and phone numbers. Why does this world have to have such > people? Can't someone put this guy in an asylum? Folks, Y'all need to calm down... First, "this guy" is a noted Lionel collector, with some indications that he is a philanthropist as well. He is most likely trying to buy up and protect these trademarks FOR us, not to make a buck (although I don't know that first hand) Second, I'm with Al Westerfield. Even if the US gummint is dumb enough to give someone a trademark, it does not mean that the trademark is defensible in court. Fallen flag logos CLEARLY fall into this category. 'nuff said Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:58:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To all: The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office soundly rejected a similar attempt several years ago, by an Illinois individual, to secure rights to the name Pennsylvania Railroad and certain of its icons and logos, including the PRR keystone. The individual *was* correct in observing that the successor company (Penn Central Co., then American Premier Underwriters, now American Financial Group) had let lapse its ownership and failed to re-register the trademark. However, the PTO held that he was not a railroad, had no intention of conducting railroad business, and was merely trying to seize the name and graphic identification solely for purposes of financial enrichment. His application was rebuffed by a federal administrative law judge on, if I remember correctly, about 12 counts. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 16:04:15 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please let's all vool our jets on the trademark issue... Al there was a major court decision on trademark and it is available to any attorney or whomever. Al, Mike Brock has the website address, do you need Mike's email address. There is no reason for any mnfuacture to sign any licencing agreements with regard to RR trademarks... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Stock cars on the Chautauqua Banch Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:42:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.82/701/Tue Feb 8 14:42:46 2005 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Did the Pennsy operate any trains which regularly carried stock cars on the Chautauqua Branch to Buffalo? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:15:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Logo/trademark ownership X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/8/2005 11:15:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Can you object online? Figure the list membership could have a pretty fun day if so. Jerry, I don't know if you can object on-line. The only time I have dealt with the Trademark and Patent Office was to challenge a company making knock membership medals for an organization to which I belong. They quickly verified the ownership of the design and sent notice to Customs to seize and all shipments to the company in Virginia which was making the knockoffs. This was all handled by letter. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:09:41 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, REILY was definitely a yard tower. It was fairly large & perched on some columns with stairs zig-zagging up the sides. It was in the middle of the EB & WB yard tracks, directly in front of where Reily St. ends. I have pictures from about 1980 or so. By the early 90's it was gone. There was also a great little shed next to the tracks at the very end of the street. > > Subject: "CANAL" Location at Harrisburg > > From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:53:44 -0500 > > > > I'm modeling a portion of Lucknow, just north (railroad west) of > > Harrisburg. The area includes the Lucknow Scrap Dock, a MW Storehouse, > > and some other entities. > > > > I've noticed on a 1950 diagram, just in front of the MW Storehouse, is > > a small square with the label "CANAL" (in quotes). This is how other > > towers are labeled, so I have to ask, was this indeed some kind of > > control point? > > > > It sits fairly close to where Yard 4 and Yard 5 meet, but it seems too > > far away to be related to any hump activity. > > > > Was it a tower? Maybe one of those yard towers that's just a little > > shack on a ladder? > > > > It does not appear on the 1929 diagram. > > > > Thanks for any help you may provide. > > Jerry, > > Went and looked at a 1950 Harrisburg map that I have. On my map, there > are several of these locations marked. In addition to CANAL, there are > these: > > LANE at the apex of the WB hump; > GI-8 just west (by compass) of LANE, by the WB freight track; > CLAY at the apex of the EB hump; > VISION between the EB relay yard and the EB receiving yard; > REILY between the engine terminal and the east end of the EB class yard; > and DOCK, to the east of Harrisburg passenger station, near the Dock > Street overhead bridge. The REILY location has the initials "D.E" in > parens after it (Diesel Engine?) There are similar locations marked on > a similar map of Enola that I have. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:59:48 -0500 From: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona, east side Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 08:07:52 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/09/05 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR Name and Logo Usage Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:29:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20050209080556.023f0638@mail.arrival.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was told by the PRR attorneys that Lionel is also filing an opposition on March 1st. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ed Workman Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 11:08 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/09/05 At 10:10 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote: >First, "this guy" is a noted Lionel collector, with some indications >that he is a philanthropist as well. He is most likely trying to buy >up and protect these trademarks FOR us, not to make a buck (although I >don't know that first hand) Er, yeah , right >Second, I'm with Al Westerfield. Even if the US gummint is dumb enough >to give someone a trademark, it does not mean that the trademark is >defensible in court. So who's going to spend the bigbucks to fight in court. Can you spell e-x-t-o-r-t-i-o-n (Can I spell it?) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-Talk" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:52:03 -0600 To: Ed Workman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 9, 2005, at 10:07 AM, Ed Workman wrote: >> Second, I'm with Al Westerfield. Even if the US gummint is dumb >> enough >> to give someone a trademark, it does not mean that the trademark is >> defensible in court. > > So who's going to spend the bigbucks to fight in court. Can you spell > e-x-t-o-r-t-i-o-n (Can I spell it?) The good news is that it really won't take "big bucks". What it takes is balls. What it takes is any trademark lawyer, or even a legal aid lawyer to drop the last 50 years of Walthers catalogs on the desk and say "You know, since you haven't protected "Union Pacific" for the past 50 years, you (UP) have NO RIGHT TO IT AT ALL". What it takes is a call to the producers of 60 Minutes... great story there... big bad corporate america, picking on little mom and pop operations and the great american hobby, when big bad corporate america doesn't even have a case. The shame of all this should be shared by model RR companies like Athearn, who, rather than fight, see this as a way to exclude competitors from the market with exclusive licensing deals. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Trademarks Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:35:04 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/09/05 Thread-Index: AcUObksbQQloVL7HS6iwFaidt9HakwAmc/cA From: "Drye, John" To: "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com the PTO held that he was not a railroad, had no=20 intention of conducting railroad business, and was merely trying to=20 seize the name and graphic identification solely for purposes of=20 financial enrichment. His application was rebuffed by a federal=20 administrative law judge on, if I remember correctly, about 12 counts Do you suppose this line of reasoning would work against UP? John Drye Modeling PRR Northern Division 1956 N Scale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:34:23 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] M1a detail parts question in HO scale >Subject: M1a detail parts question in HO scale >From: "Harry Fitch" >Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:01:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:51:51 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] February TKM K4s articles Cc: PRR talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] February TKM K4s articles Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:41:22 -0600 To: Doug Kisala X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 10, 2005, at 8:51 AM, Doug Kisala wrote: > I wanted to comment on Sam's article. For starters, > nice work with a Bowser kit! Sometimes I feel like > I'm out in the wilderness working on these. For fans of Bowser, I suggest that y'all join us on PRRPro (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) for our I1 project. I can assure you that at least one of us will be building a Bowser (me)! We should start sometime in late March or early April, once the Sharks are done. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:59:31 EST Subject: [PRR] NJCB coaches X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am considering the purchase of these cars. Does anyone know what their quality is like? I assume as with the majority of brass cars that the rolling quality will need attention but what about the rest of the cars? Those large door windows just look wrong but do not have enough photos or information on the cars to determine if they did have large windows. http://www.bcenterpriseinc.com/brass/njcbccl.jpg Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:00:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] NJCB coaches MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Evan, The story behind those Door windows is that it appears NJ Custom Brass went by the drawings that were included in a Model Railroader from the 1970's. This drawing showed the coach with the doors in both the as built and rebuilt versions. NJCB followed the drawing to the T. So what you see on the Coach is one end with as built doors and the other end with modifed doors. Not an easy fix as the doors are part of the sides, not soldered in place. Better P70's are out there.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:06:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Interline payments (was historic Pennsylvania Railroad X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Smith=20 To: RickTipton ; Jim Cassatt Jr. ; Gregg Mahlkov=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:03 AM Subject: Fwd: Information about historic Pennsylvania Railroad Company chequ= e Hi Jim, Rick, Greg, Here's an interesting piece of PRR paper... What do you think? Its the "P=20 Co." so its clearly Lines West (although Chicago Transfer Freight Station ga= ve=20 that away nicely ). Any idea what "advance charges" they are paying AT&SF= =20 for? Per diems?=20 Regards Bruce Begin forwarded message: I am working for a publishing house in the south of Germany. There I have to= =20 wirte textes about differrent historic items. Now we have this railroad cheq= ue=20 (which I have attached) of the Pennsylvania Railroad and I cannot find=20 anything in the internet about it. Could you please give me any information=20= about=20 it. For example: What were the cheques for? When were they used? Who used th= em? I would be very grateful for every help! Thank you very much in advance Petra Leising-Fischer Dr. J. Hugo H=F6rr Nachf. =ABVerlagshaus am See=BB Holdersteig 36 D-78465 Konstanz Germany In a message dated 2/9/2005 9:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: Bruce, The check is quite clear as to what the Santa Fe is being paid, "Prepaid=20 (freight) charges due that line". When freight moved on combination rates, i= t is=20 quite common for the shipper to prepay all charges to the origin carrier as=20 part of the total freight bill and the origin carrier then pays each road du= e its=20 separate charges as "advances". Also, say a shipment was sent to Chicago via= =20 ATSF "collect" and when there was reshipped to Grand Rapids. The inbound=20 charges could be "advanced" to Grand Rapids and PRR would reimburse ATSF whe= n it=20 collected the charges at Grand Rapids. Other charges were "advanced" like stop-off charges, icing charges, etc.,=20 that accrued to the road performing the service and were not divided by perc= ents=20 like the through freight charges. Among my many jobs at the AN was negotiating interline divisions and handlin= g=20 interline revenue disputes. Gregg Mahlkov Gentlemen, I appreciate Gregg's on-target explanation of this check (or "cheque", in th= e=20 language of the day). I didn't see the image of the check, but obviously=20 payments from "Lines West" predate the 1920's. For our listmates, I'll simply add that collection by one railroad and=20 interline payments of appropriate shares to others was one more of the techn= ologies=20 worked out when free interchange of cars got going -- my impression is that=20 this hit high gear in North America in the 1880's. This capability was ever= y=20 bit as vital to operating the railroads as a national network as the more=20 obvious: 1. standardized track gauge and frog clearance 2. standardized couplers, wheels, and brakes 3. standardized freight tariffs A proof that this was vital (literally "life-and-death") to an operating=20 company came in 1970, when Penn Central entered bankruptcy. This interrupte= d the=20 flow of PC's interline payments TO all the other eastern roads, and quickly=20 wiped out their incoming cash flow. Each of these other roads was thrown in= to=20 bankruptcy as an immediate result, setting us up for the creation of Conrail= . The moral of the story is that a railroad is not just an organization that=20 runs trains and maintains tracks (much as we enjoy fanning those activities)= . =20 It is also a huge cash machine -- and even with super-railroads, in large pa= rt=20 is fed by interline payments. Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:06:47 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Interline payments (was historic Pennsylvania Railroad Company cheque) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Smith=20 To: RickTipton ; Jim Cassatt Jr. ; Gregg Mahlkov=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 9:03 AM Subject: Fwd: Information about historic Pennsylvania Railroad Company cheq= ue Hi Jim, Rick, Greg, Here's an interesting piece of PRR paper... What do you think? Its the "P=20 Co." so its clearly Lines West (although Chicago Transfer Freight Station g= ave=20 that away nicely ). Any idea what "advance charges" they are paying AT&S= F=20 for? Per diems?=20 Regards Bruce Begin forwarded message: I am working for a publishing house in the south of Germany. There I have t= o=20 wirte textes about differrent historic items. Now we have this railroad che= que=20 (which I have attached) of the Pennsylvania Railroad and I cannot find=20 anything in the internet about it. Could you please give me any information= about=20 it. For example: What were the cheques for? When were they used? Who used t= hem? I would be very grateful for every help! Thank you very much in advance Petra Leising-Fischer Dr. J. Hugo H=F6rr Nachf. =ABVerlagshaus am See=BB Holdersteig 36 D-78465 Konstanz Germany In a message dated 2/9/2005 9:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: Bruce, The check is quite clear as to what the Santa Fe is being paid, "Prepaid=20 (freight) charges due that line". When freight moved on combination rates, = it is=20 quite common for the shipper to prepay all charges to the origin carrier as= =20 part of the total freight bill and the origin carrier then pays each road d= ue its=20 separate charges as "advances". Also, say a shipment was sent to Chicago vi= a=20 ATSF "collect" and when there was reshipped to Grand Rapids. The inbound=20 charges could be "advanced" to Grand Rapids and PRR would reimburse ATSF wh= en it=20 collected the charges at Grand Rapids. Other charges were "advanced" like stop-off charges, icing charges, etc.,=20 that accrued to the road performing the service and were not divided by per= cents=20 like the through freight charges. Among my many jobs at the AN was negotiating interline divisions and handli= ng=20 interline revenue disputes. Gregg Mahlkov Gentlemen, I appreciate Gregg's on-target explanation of this check (or "cheque", in t= he=20 language of the day). I didn't see the image of the check, but obviously=20 payments from "Lines West" predate the 1920's. For our listmates, I'll simply add that collection by one railroad and=20 interline payments of appropriate shares to others was one more of the tech= nologies=20 worked out when free interchange of cars got going -- my impression is that= =20 this hit high gear in North America in the 1880's. This capability was eve= ry=20 bit as vital to operating the railroads as a national network as the more=20 obvious: 1. standardized track gauge and frog clearance 2. standardized couplers, wheels, and brakes 3. standardized freight tariffs A proof that this was vital (literally "life-and-death") to an operating=20 company came in 1970, when Penn Central entered bankruptcy. This interrupt= ed the=20 flow of PC's interline payments TO all the other eastern roads, and quickly= =20 wiped out their incoming cash flow. Each of these other roads was thrown i= nto=20 bankruptcy as an immediate result, setting us up for the creation of Conrai= l. The moral of the story is that a railroad is not just an organization that= =20 runs trains and maintains tracks (much as we enjoy fanning those activities= ).=20=20 It is also a huge cash machine -- and even with super-railroads, in large p= art=20 is fed by interline payments. Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->=20 What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 =20 Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ =20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:11:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Penn Texas drumhead artwork X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/10/2005 5:28:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 03:35:20 -0000 From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: Re: Penn Texas logo/drumhead --- In PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, "Dominic Mazoch" wrote: > > Was there ever a PENN TEXAS logo and/or drumhead? > Dominic There is a few consists listed in Stegmaiers 1952 Passenger Trains book....but I have to wonder what they would have hung the sign ON....apparently (at least in 1952), there was no tail car, solarium, etc normally assigned to this train. Regards; Brian Gents, I examined several postwar consists for tail cars, particularly on trains west of Columbus. It seems that observation cars were generally not used -- the Samuel Rea and the William Wallace Atterbury were exceptions, running on the Cincinnati Limited. Somewhere I have seen Penntexas drumhead artwork. IIRC its most distinctive feature was an outline of the state of Texas. It probably had one of the PRR keystones inside that outline, but I can't remember which version was used. OTOH, I don't remember ever seeing this logo pictured on the tail of a train. I'm saddened by the realization that I became a railfan and photographer too late to shoot the Penn Texas or Spirit of St. Louis or the Cincinnati Limited even once while growing up in Ohio. They all ran through our county seat, Xenia Ohio. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 02:11:25 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Penn Texas drumhead artwork --- In PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, "Dominic Mazoch" wrote: > > Was there ever a PENN TEXAS logo and/or drumhead? > Dominic There is a few consists listed in Stegmaiers 1952 Passenger Trains book....but I have to wonder what they would have hung the sign ON....apparently (at least in 1952), there was no tail car, solarium, etc normally assigned to this train. Regards; Brian Gents, I examined several postwar consists for tail cars, particularly on trains west of Columbus. It seems that observation cars were generally not used -- the Samuel Rea and the William Wallace Atterbury were exceptions, running on the Cincinnati Limited. Somewhere I have seen Penntexas drumhead artwork. IIRC its most distinctive feature was an outline of the state of Texas. It probably had one of the PRR keystones inside that outline, but I can't remember which version was used. OTOH, I don't remember ever seeing this logo pictured on the tail of a train. I'm saddened by the realization that I became a railfan and photographer too late to shoot the Penn Texas or Spirit of St. Louis or the Cincinnati Limited even once while growing up in Ohio. They all ran through our county seat, Xenia Ohio. ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <84a44fc3d94bbe28d4eedca02162d308@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Conrail-Talk LIST , PRR-Talk LIST , Reading-Talk LIST From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Site Maintenance This Weekend Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:42:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers and web users... There will be interruptions in service for the lists and web sites hosted by Desktop Solutions this weekend. This includes, but is not limited to, PRR-talk, Conrail-talk, Reading-talk, Keystone Crossings, and many other web sites. Most likely the interruption will occur this evening (Friday), starting around 6 p.m. Work should be completed within an hour or so. However, there is a chance that we will not be prepared for this window, in which case it will be tomorrow afternoon (Saturday) at an as-yet unknown time. The lowdown... for the geeks who care... Our Internet site utilizes two servers. An ancient PPC 60 MHz system handles mail and dns and a PPC G4 400 MHz system serves lists, ftp, and web. The former is not capable of rebooting itself after a power failure (and the UPS has drained), which was the case last November when I was on vacation. I don't care for such vulnerabilities, so I am upgrading! A new PPC G5 1.8 GHz machine is 80% prepped for implementation. As with our existing servers, it runs MacOS, though this will be MacOS 10.x, which is really UNIX under the hood. Existing applications can run on this o/s in Classic (emulation) mode or native (UNIX) mode. Tonight the new machine will replace the mail and dns server and those apps will continue to run in Classic mode, to reduce the number of changes if troubleshooting is needed. Once stability is confirmed, the mail server software will be upgraded to native mode. Over the coming weeks the listserv, web server, and ftp server will be moved to this new hardware, starting in Classic mode and also migrating to native mode, one application at a time. Not only will this new hardware be rebootable in the event of a power failure, but I will be able to control it remotely, which is one of the main reasons for the upgrade. Ah, isn't technology wonderful! (If you see smoke rising over the skies of Etters this evening, don't ask!!!) ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:11:43 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Our shipment of the new Walthers GACX express wood reefers just arrived. = How often would the PFE cars have been seen on Pennsy trains? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: [PRR] FM locos on Wilkes-Barre branch? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:37:24 +0000 From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:18:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As I asked myself that and related reefer questions a few months ago, I found Jerry's website section on "modeling reefer traffic" to be very informative. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Park Varieties" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 4:11 PM Subject: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Our shipment of the new Walthers GACX express wood reefers just arrived. How often would the PFE cars have been seen on Pennsy trains? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Site Maintenance This Weekend Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:06:25 -0500 To: Conrail-Talk LIST , PRR-Talk LIST , Reading-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com No sparks or smoke! Took about 25 minutes. So far, so good! ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:22:30 EST Subject: [PRR] BLI SW-7 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List; I finally got a chance to look at the new BLI SW-7 and frankly I was not very impressed. Now maybe I missed it somewhere on this list, but did anyone notice that the headlights are wrong? I know the SW-9 had the dual pyle headlights, but to my knowledge, all of the PRR SW-7's had the larger single lens headlight. Another thing that caught my eye were the numbers. They did not look like the correct 'billboard' style numbers. They looked slightly narrow. Finally, I was also unimpressed with the sound quality. I could be wrong on this as its been a long time since I heard an SW-7 in front of me, but as I test ran the engine, the 'jerkiness' in the sound going from one 'notch' to the next was too sudden. The Soundtraxx units allow the engine sound to 'rev up' to the next 'notch'. It almost sounded toyish! God help me if I'm getting too picky, but considering the price and the quality of BLI's other offerings, I was very disappointed. So much so, I cancelled my order for mine! Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:43:52 EST Subject: [PRR] FM's on the Wilkes-Barre branch X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Absolutely. In the early 1960's PRR assigned these cab units to the Northern Region on runs out of Enola, often on the Wilkes-Barre trains S80, S81, S82, S83 as well as the Buffalo & Elmira trains. The S80 & S81 usually had 2 or 3 GP9's but the other two had anything from F units, FA's, C-liners or Erie Builts. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:00:56 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is an individual looking for a brake rigging diagram for this car. I told him to the best of my knowledge the PRR never had any so I thought I better check. Did they? Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ben Kroger" Subject: [PRR] run through cars on the Sunshine Special and Penn Texas Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:47:56 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've found information on the list and elsewhere on which types of run = through Pullmans were used at various times on the Sunshine Special and = the Penn Texas, but is there a list of specific car names available? Did = the MS-60s continue west as part of the interchange with Missouri = Pacific on these trains? Thanks for any information. Ben Kroger Dallas, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:35:55 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:09:21 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To what model are you referring?Obviously the X23 (see Westerfield) was outside-braced. Or there is the Accurail quasi-X26 (differing mainly in z vs. hat? channels--- for some reason Accurail modeled a relatively obscure GTW prototype of the USRA boxcar)). Or the accurate (as far as I know) X26 (USRA) kit by Tichy (RTR built by Intermountain). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:00 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car > There is an individual looking for a brake rigging diagram for this car. I told him to the best of my knowledge the PRR never had any so I thought I better check. Did they? Norm Bell > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:23:19 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:16:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/11/05 9:12:04 PM Central Standard Time, bobspf@wi.rr.com writes: > Or the accurate (as far as I know) X26 > (USRA) kit by Tichy (RTR built by Intermountain). > Bob & List Greg Martin did an article on this car (X26) in the June 1997 Mainline Modeler. Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] Panhandle motive power Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:20:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <29055.19133@dsop.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [141.151.221.192] at Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:20:47 -0600 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, I am modeling the Panhandle in the Weirton, WV - Steubenville, OH area (yes, the bridge!!!) and I would like your help in identifying types and numbers of smaller steam motive power in the area during the years 1948-1957 (pretty wide span, I know). The layout will be in 3-rail O gauge. For a look, see http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=63160042&f=453102703&m=56910665 12 I know that among the smaller engines G5s, K4s, L1s, and H-10's were prevalent. Can someone suggest a source for engine numbers for this area? Also, can anyone recommend a good book for the Panhandle? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:16:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' outside braced box car From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' SINGLE SHEATHED box car Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:21:31 +0000 From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI SW-7 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 07:21:38 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I understand that they are also wired backwards. Not a problem for DCC users but a needless annoyance for DC users. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 7:22 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI SW-7 > List; > > I finally got a chance to look at the new BLI SW-7 and frankly I was not > very impressed. Now maybe I missed it somewhere on this list, but did > anyone > notice that the headlights are wrong? I know the SW-9 had the dual pyle > headlights, but to my knowledge, all of the PRR SW-7's had the larger > single lens > headlight. > > Another thing that caught my eye were the numbers. They did not look > like > the correct 'billboard' style numbers. They looked slightly narrow. > > Finally, I was also unimpressed with the sound quality. I could be wrong > on > this as its been a long time since I heard an SW-7 in front of me, but as > I > test ran the engine, the 'jerkiness' in the sound going from one 'notch' > to > the next was too sudden. The Soundtraxx units allow the engine sound to > 'rev > up' to the next 'notch'. It almost sounded toyish! > > God help me if I'm getting too picky, but considering the price and the > quality of BLI's other offerings, I was very disappointed. So much so, I > cancelled my order for mine! > > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:07:03 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 40' SINGLE SHEATHED box car Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com WOW! good information and as a bonus, another (that makes two...) NYP&NRR freight car that I can add to my collection. Unfortunately, the link is not working on the Westerfield site so I can't see the details of the car. Jim McDaniel, ready to build an X23 in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Kgt255@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:37:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Panhandle motive power X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Cecil Howell wrote a book on the Panhandle about 10 years ago. I'm away from my stuff right now, so I can't say exactly when. The title was something like: "The Building of the Pan Handle Division of Pennsylvania Railroad" or something similar. (If you check the Chartiers Branch page in the Hobo's Guide on Jerry's site, I know I listed it in the bibliography.) He published it himself using the publisher name "How Book" in Oakdale, PA. I don't know if it's still available. I got my copy at A.B. Charles Hobby Shop in Dormont, PA. He included a list of steam locomotive that he had personally recorded as having worked on the Panhandle. Like I said, I'm away from my usual location, thus, my books, right now, or I'd look 'em up. Anyone else have that one handy? Peace Kevin Trichtinger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:34:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] K brakes, my error From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:13:31 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Laser cut Helix-is-building From: Tucson3985@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:59:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI SW-7 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Though off-topic, why not take a critical glance at the BLI SD-40-2. Great sound system. Absolutely trash carbody and paint, as well as poor material choice. What a letdown. Ivan Abrams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:50:46 -0800 (PST) From: Angela Sutton Subject: re: [PRR] Panhandle locos From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] Panhandle motive power Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:01:58 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcURL5DGt1Mjh0q2Qlq46iRdm18+SQA8P7fQAAHtYRA= Message-ID: <1103783181-5870331@dsop.com> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, If anyone has a source I'd like to buy a copy. I grew up in Coshocton, Ohio on the Panhandle in the 40's and 50's. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Kgt255@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:37 PM To: gpandelios@verizon.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Panhandle motive power Cecil Howell wrote a book on the Panhandle about 10 years ago. I'm away from my stuff right now, so I can't say exactly when. The title was something like: "The Building of the Pan Handle Division of Pennsylvania Railroad" or something similar. (If you check the Chartiers Branch page in the Hobo's Guide on Jerry's site, I know I listed it in the bibliography.) He published it himself using the publisher name "How Book" in Oakdale, PA. I don't know if it's still available. I got my copy at A.B. Charles Hobby Shop in Dormont, PA. He included a list of steam locomotive that he had personally recorded as having worked on the Panhandle. Like I said, I'm away from my usual location, thus, my books, right now, or I'd look 'em up. Anyone else have that one handy? Peace Kevin Trichtinger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:20:42 -0800 (PST) From: Angela Sutton Subject: re [PRR] Panhandle motive power / Howell book Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:45:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone heard of any upcoming announcements as to the next official announcement of a plastic or diecast Pennsy steamer? There have been rumors of a Pennsy I1 and a L1, but nother official. Since I just paid out a lot for some BLI K4's, I am glad nothing is due out now. However, I am hopefull that something will be out this fall in time for Christmas. Nothing is better than a Pennsy engine under the tree:) Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:40:40 -0500 To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:45 PM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > Has anyone heard of any upcoming announcements as to the next official > announcement of a plastic or diecast Pennsy steamer? There have been > rumors of a Pennsy I1 and a L1, but nother official. Since I just paid > out a lot for some BLI K4's, I am glad nothing is due out now. > However, I am hopefull that something will be out this fall in time > for Christmas. Nothing is better than a Pennsy engine under the tree:) Christmas? Christmas? !!! Geez, wasn't that just six weeks ago!!! (Odds are good!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:17:11 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yeah Christmas was just six weeks ago. But the timeline seems to work like this: 1. Rumors of announcement 2. Official announcement with a release in July 3. Product release date changed to Fall 4. Fall arrives and product test shots are now online or someone is passing them out on a list serve 5. Product hits the shelve at the very end of the year or just after the New Year. So I figure if something is announced now, I can expect an arrival for late this year or early next:) Eric -----Original Message----- From: Jerry@Pennsy, jerry@pennsyrr.com Sent: Feb 14, 2005 6:40 AM To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Cc: PRR Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:45 PM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > Has anyone heard of any upcoming announcements as to the next official > announcement of a plastic or diecast Pennsy steamer? There have been > rumors of a Pennsy I1 and a L1, but nother official. Since I just paid > out a lot for some BLI K4's, I am glad nothing is due out now. > However, I am hopefull that something will be out this fall in time > for Christmas. Nothing is better than a Pennsy engine under the tree:) Christmas? Christmas? !!! Geez, wasn't that just six weeks ago!!! (Odds are good!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:45:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] HO PRR Steam From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR Steam Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:35:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com MTH announced a K4 BUT in his typical arrogance it requires his sound system to function. From other boards there is almost universal hatred for this guy in HO and I think he may not enter the market based on his previous experience and lack of reception. -------------- Original message from "Dominic Mazoch" : -------------- > > I have heard that Mike's Train House was/is doing a PRR engine in HO. I don't > do HO, so I have not been following that thread. > > > Dominic Mazoch > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. > Now includes pop-up blocker! > Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:51:56 +0000 >From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >Subject: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 21:45:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk), "Dominic Mazoch" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] MTH K4s was HO PRR Steam Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:56:01 -0600 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 14, 2005, at 7:35 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > MTH announced a K4 BUT in his typical arrogance it requires his sound=20= > system to function. =46rom other boards there is almost universal=20 > hatred for this guy in HO and I think he may not enter the market=20 > based on his previous experience and lack of reception. If you look at the MTH site (http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp), you=20= will see that the loco is "Capable of operating with any DC power=20 supply, DCC controller or M.T.H.=92s own DCS command system". Their web site shows an MSRP of $399.95. Its hard to tell the features=20= on the loco, but the ashpan is clearly missing. Like the BLI brochure,=20= the adds say "working backup light"... that'll be interesting Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:17:28 -0600 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 14, 2005, at 7:51 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > For rolling stock, I know that Walthers is doing the B60A B60B - Bethlehem Car Works is doing a brass car sides B60A (a rare car). So far, nobody is doing the B60 (almost as common as the B60B up through WWII) > > There are probably others that I am not aware of. I have a sneaking > suspicion that there will be an announcement this year that will be > both unexpected and will knock our socks off. Something like a > complete Broadway Limited train set (either 1938 or 1948/9 version) > complete with motive power. Walthers and BLI would be the usual > suspects. Indeed! With the T1, K4s, E7, E8 and GG1 for motive power, BLI seems like a logical suspect. OTOH, Walthers is clearly building up to doing complete trains, and they do have a start on a '38 Broadway already... although motive power is a problem unless they pair with Broadway or LifeLike (E7/E8). Hmmmm, I wonder.. Since the R1 was normally the power on the Broadway from NYC to Harrisburg... maybe we can get someone to do one!!! Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:41:26 -0600 To: Bill Daniels , PRR-Talk talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Sounds like an interesting thought...but with one > minor problem. E7/9's are at least 7 years too new to > power the '38 Broadway. Now maybe a special > (streamlined) K4s from Broadway Ltd might be just the > ticket... > > Bill Daniels Bill, Note that the '47-48 Broadway was in the mix for speculation... that's why I added the E units . Of course, a '38 Broadway COULD use E7s given that they were on the property prior to the inauguration of the '47-48 train. I'm all for a streamlined K4s! And I want my '38 Broadway in PRR Streamline paint (FOM) with Block style lettering!! Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:45:05 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <004c01c5107e$49eba1b0$c24656d8@FBRUA> Thread-index: AcUQfzEQjCgGjhaST/GuAV/mSErTxgCNS8UQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to a recent thread, wooden express reefers of any stripe would be rare since they would be banned from the tunnels into NY and could not reach PXT in Sunnyside. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Varieties Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 4:12 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Our shipment of the new Walthers GACX express wood reefers just arrived. How often would the PFE cars have been seen on Pennsy trains? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:13:51 +0000 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:07:16 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:41:24 +0000 >From: "Andy Miller" >Subject: RE: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:35:01 -0500 >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews >Subject: RE: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? From: "Ron & Marilyn" Subject: Re: [PRR] Panhandle motive power Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:12:37 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > > > List, > If anyone has a source I'd like to buy a copy. I grew up in Coshocton, > Ohio > on the Panhandle in the 40's and 50's. > Sid Johnson The book was published in 1995 by Cecil Howell, a former tower operator on the Panhandle. He worked several towers and block stations on the eastern end of the Panhandle but spent his last years on the railroad at Wagner, Esplen and finally the dispatching center in Greentree. The list of steam locomotives noted in Mr. Howell's book include the I-1, M-1, T-1, G-5, B-6, K-4, L-1, H-6, H1-9, and H10. He self-published the book so there isn't a major publishing company you can go to in order to obtain a copy. Also, the book is spiral bound and was reproduced on a Xerox machine so the quality isn't very good. Nevertheless, it is chock full of good information and is a valuable resource for anyone interested in the Panhandle. You might check Pittsburgh area hobby shops, especially AB Charles and Sons, to see if a copy is still available. Ron Mele ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:35:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: Thread-index: AcUSnOGnQioNmPjFTfiBH7P1hMBlggAHjiJw Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted Andrews wrote (in part) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:52 AM To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] New HO scale Pennsy steamer? . . . For rolling stock, I know that Walthers is doing the B60A this year plus there are rumors of a N6B cabin car as well. Ted ----------------------- Ted, Are you sure Walthers' said B60A. That's a pretty obscure car. The common PRR baggage car was the B60B. The original B60 with the clerestory roof was also common, but I think only one B60A was ever built. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:11:05 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Streamlined K4s in HO? From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:09:06 -0800 Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park > Subject: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Madison, WI Train Show-This Weekend Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:16:20 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUS3/g6nTvS1K0gSdSHooC+PeirUwAABPywACIpyiA= Message-Id: <20050215141626.REVP7908.mm-ismta4.bizmailsrvcs.net@pete> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi PRR Modelers, Be sure to mark your calendars for the 38th Annual Mad City Model Railroad Show & Sale February 19-20, 2005 at the Alliant Energy Center, Exhibition Hall Madison, WI. (Highway 12 & 18 Beltline, Rimrock Road exit) 70,000 sq. ft. of Model Railroad layouts and vendors. 9-5 both days For more information: (608) 835-3148 or http://www.scwd-nmra.org PRR modelers: Say hi to Dayna and Randy at Trainstuff, LLC and stop by the Paint Plus Trains table and say hi to me. Peter Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE -- HO and N Scale HARRIS Tower Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:17:42 -0500 To: Conrail-Talk LIST , PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 15th of the month "For Sale" post... Merchandise Service has commissioned The N Scale Architect to produce HARRIS tower in HO and N scales. The N Scale Architect recently produced ALTO tower and the response was excellent. HARRIS is a brick tower and protected the western end of the Harrisburg, Pa., passenger station. It was built by the PRR and was succeeded by Penn Central and Conrail. Today it is restored by the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS. This will be a limited release and is the first in a series of anticipated tower projects. For more information, please see... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_harris.html Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:25:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <021420051713.28174.4210DC4F000A61C800006E0E2160383116030108D20D@att.net> Thread-index: AcUS/EgQ8p+RvPLPQR2QSp0JJeNg6gAfl3AQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am glad to hear that my assumption was wrong. I already own several wooden express reefers and would like to buy some of the new one coming on the market. Now I can do so with a clear prototype conscience. regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of b.hom@att.net Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:14 PM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Andy Miller wrote: "According to a recent thread, wooden express reefers of any stripe would be rare since they would be banned from the tunnels into NY and could not reach PXT in Sunnyside." Further research by Andy Hart shows that this assumption is incorrect. He posted the following on PRR-FAX on November 10, 2004: "I checked a PRR employees timetable No. 34 for the New York Div. dated Sept. 29, 1940, which would have been around the time period of the photo of the PFE Reefer [referenced in Ben Hom's previous post]. Under 'D2909, New York, East and North River Tunnels - Movement of Passenger and Freight Equipment' it states the following; 'Refrigerator and freight type cars must have all-steel underframe.' The Pennsy and others referred to the Hudson River as "the North River". The PFE cars had steel underframes and the only requirement for them operating through the tunnels would be that their "hatch covers must be closed and secured before entering tunnels". I have just found another photo showing a PFE wood-sheathed express reefer in Sunnyside Yard. It is on page 25 of the Spring 1996 'Keystone'. The color photo taken in November 1955 is in an article about Sunnyside Yard. Andy Hart" Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-n_scale From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] N Scale Locos With Sound! (Not BLI!) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:47:46 -0500 To: PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Details are sketchy, but those with advance copies of the April issue of Model Railroader are citing an ad on page 21 for Precision Craft Models. Unfortunately, the advertised web site doesn't come up yet. Anyway, the ad is for EMD E7 A and B units, with or without QSI sound (dummies also available) made by Ajin in Korea. They are due to arrive this summer. The initial lineup offers 6 different Pennsy road numbers in A and B units. No word on which paint scheme. The domain name is registered to a contact I know was once at Broadway Limited Imports, which really caught my attention. Stay tuned as details emerge! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] BLI Stock Car Sale Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:08:34 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have several sets of the Broadway Limited #850 PRR stock cars without = sound that I want to move. Your "Blue Light Special" price is $68.50 = for set of four cars plus Parcel Post shipping to your ZIP code. Please respond to me directly and include your ZIP code so I can quote = you shipping cost. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-n_scale From: Jerry Britton Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Locos With Sound! (Not BLI!) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:32:10 -0500 To: PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com From Charlie Vlk via the Atlas N Scale Forum: > Now that the word is out I can talk a little about the project. > The companies are obviously friendly but financially and managarially > separate. > There are no deep plots or political intrique as to why the N Scale > projects will be by Precision Craft and not Broadway Limited...it is > simply a business decision. > I have been involved in the project from the begining and am doing all > that I can to insure that the end results will be something I will be > proud of being associated with. > Why an E7? The direction of these projects is to produce Sound > Equipped locomotives (although non-sound "DCC Friendly" and Dummies > will be offered as well). The sound equipped units will come with the > sound in a powered locomotive that can be operated equally well on > Analog DC or Command Control DCC.....and the technology is not there > yet to allow sound in narrow-hood units. Hence there are a lot of > prototypes that will not be made until another generation of > electronics is available. > But why an E7? It is as good a place to start the program as any. > Frankly, a state of the art E7 has yet to be done (correct nose > contours, prototype options, etc..). I wrote the outline specs for > this project and the unit will have a few more features than its HO > sisters (NO "one bodyshell....its good enough for N Scale" business on > my watch!!!). > I just finished up the evaluations on test shots for two more future > locomotives and they will also be (IMHO) neeto things to have for us N > Scalers. > The "Wish List" of future projects is long and very comprehensive in > its scope. There are many items on it that have been requested by N > Scalers and some unexpected items as well. It is likely that there > will be other forms of locomotion and even rolling stock as the > program unfolds. > I won't be able to expand on my remarks at this time so you can > resume your normal lives now until we get closer to the actual release > of product(s). > Charlie Vlk > Railroad Model Resources / Broadway Limited / Precision Craft ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 19:23:36 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, I have for sale two(2) complete Quality Craft PRR 2 bay=20 Hopper kits. Vintage craftsman kits from 1973. Kit=20 contains all wood and metal parts needed to complete these=20 cars including decals. Less trucks and couplers. I'm asking 10.00 each, with $5.00 covering shipping on=20 both cars. Please contact me if interested. Regards, John York, PA Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Maryland,=20 and Maryland & Pennsylvania. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:03:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/14/05 9:16:57 PM, schlund@cwnet.com writes: >Banned? Well this cannot be true. Pg 117 of Middleton's "Manhattan Gateway >New >York's Pennsylvania Station" clearly shows a wood express reefer >(cannot see lettering if it is REA or PFE or something else) in the open >pit area adjacent to Penn Station. It had to get there somehow! >Only way is via the tunnels... > ********** Actually, tunnels were not the ONLY way. I can't speak to the issue of wooden refer cars, but most (all?) freight ccame to Manhatten on lighters, large barges moved by the tugs boats of the Pennsy's navy. When I was working in NYC, the Harbor Master was Walter Rocky who had been ATM when I was based in Cincinnati. I believe most freight went into a yard over on the west river (the Hudson) at DesBrosses Street. I don't remember if there was track from this location down to Penn Station, so the refer might have come through the tunnel, but the tunnel wasn't the ONLY way. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:14:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1e6.353687ee.2f43f5df@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Marty wrote: "I believe most freight went into a yard over on the west river (the Hudson) at DesBrosses Street. I don't remember if there was track from this location down to Penn Station, so the reefer might have come through the tunnel, but the tunnel wasn't the ONLY way." It wasn't, and freight reefers were routinely carfloated across the Hudson to Manhattan to serve New York City's produce and meat markets. However, express reefers are typically used for the highest priority perishables such as early season fruit and berries (which command premium market prices), medicine, or flowers. It makes absolutely no sense to run high priority perishables in express reefers and then have to float them from New Jersey to Manhattan or Brooklyn (to reach PXT at Sunnyside), or break bulk and reload them into steel express reefers. Time was definitely money when it came to these cargos. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:03:38 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] 1" SCALE PRR FOR SALE From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] FOR SALE Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 22:05:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I missed two specifications. My deepest apologies. First,=20 these are HO. Second, they are open hoppers. York, PA Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Maryland,=20 and Maryland & Pennsylvania. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:27:20 -0800 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1e6.353687ee.2f43f5df@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: 6b73c4bfaee5d95e1a2467d70233b1a70a9da525759e2654ba09df61b0729e7050a4bd687dccd7a40ca2637590cc961d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.247.211.28 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR did have Manhattan facilities at Debrossess Street (for = produce), and 37th Street, but there was no connection to Penn Station tracks. = The tunnels were the only way in and out of Penn Station. The current connection from Penn Station to the former NYC West Side freight line = used by Amtrak was built by Amtrak. Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 5:03 PM To: schlund@cwnet.com; asmiller@mitre.org; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE Express Reefers In a message dated 2/14/05 9:16:57 PM, schlund@cwnet.com writes: >Banned? Well this cannot be true. Pg 117 of Middleton's "Manhattan=20 >Gateway New York's Pennsylvania Station" clearly shows a wood express=20 >reefer (cannot see lettering if it is REA or PFE or something else) in=20 >the open pit area adjacent to Penn Station. It had to get there=20 >somehow! Only way is via the tunnels... > ********** Actually, tunnels were not the ONLY way. I can't speak to the issue of wooden=20 refer cars, but most (all?) freight ccame to Manhatten on lighters, = large=20 barges moved by the tugs boats of the Pennsy's navy. When I was working = in NYC,=20 the Harbor Master was Walter Rocky who had been ATM when I was based in=20 Cincinnati. I believe most freight went into a yard over on the west river (the = Hudson)=20 at DesBrosses Street. I don't remember if there was track from this = location down to Penn Station, so the refer might have come through the tunnel, = but the=20 tunnel wasn't the ONLY way. Regards,=20 Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:29:34 -0500 From: "cwhary" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Info Request From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] HO PRR Steam Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:58:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb. 14 the following statement was made on PRR-Talk - "MTH announced a K4 BUT in his typical arrogance it requires his sound system to function. From other boards there is almost universal hatred for this guy in HO and I think he may not enter the market based on his previous experience and lack of reception." I inquired about this with someone I know within MTH and this is the reply I got. Realizing it might be slightly skewed to MTH, but interesting never the less.. Al ============================ "While I would agree that Mike Wolf, head of MTH, has generated more than his fair share of controversy, in this case the writer is wildly misinformed. To quote from the MTH brochure (which I helped write) for its first HO engine, the upcoming K-4s: "Already have a DCC system? Proto-Sound 3.0-equipped locomotives are fully compatible with your existing DCC system. While you will not have access to all Proto-Sound 3.0 features, you can control any M.T.H. HO locomotive in command mode with any DCC-compliant command control system. Your existing DCC controller can independently control your DCC-equipped locomotives and your Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotives on the same track at the same time. With your existing DCC controller, the following Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotive features are accessible: - Operate at scale speeds - Activate whistle or bell sounds - Hear squeaking brakes - Enjoy synchronized puffing smoke timed to driver revolutions - Smoke on/off - Activate passenger station or freight yard sound effects - Doppler sounds - Master volume - Adjustable chuff rate" I have not been working with Mike directly, but I can tell you that I've been working with several of the folks directly below him -- most of whom have been his friends since high school -- and they have all been smart, gracious, fun to work with, and open to criticism. For an interesting read that gives a rather balanced view of Mike and MTH, you might want to look at the article in the February issue of Inc. Magazine; it's posted on the magazine's web site." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:27:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fellow SPF's: I am contemplating modeling a fifty car Pennsy Coal Train in HO scale to represent circa 1950. I would like to gather input from list members in regards to: 1). What would be a realistic ratio for the 50 cars to breakdown into classes GLa, GLc, GLca, H21, H25 and H31? 2). What other roads open hoppers would most commonly be seen in a Pennsy coal drag moving east to west or vice versa in Central Pennsylvania? 3). Would it be common to see different grades and or types of coal in different cars in the same train? Thanks in advance, Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:19:37 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: Thread-index: AcUUqVUeJoPVK6YtS2miYbupJJkBRgAUcmyw Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Here's a table of the top 30 classes of PRR cars in 1943 and 1945. It may answer some of your questions. I may also have later data, but will have to look later for it. regards, Andy Miller Top 30 Classes of Freight Cars on the Pennsylvania Railroad. 31-Jan-43 30-Apr-45 1 H21a 38383 H21a 39208 2 X29 27710 X29 27682 3 GLa 25551 GLa 25547 4 GS 25121 GS 24883 5 GRa 13882 GRa 13346 6 X26 9774 X26 9761 7 X25 9199 X25 9187 8 GR 8640 GLc 8261 9 GLc 8269 GR 8089 10 X31a 7285 X31a 7278 11 X23 5992 X23 5602 12 H25 5261 H25 5261 13 X28a 4956 G22 5141 14 G27 4499 X28a 4949 15 G22 3727 G27 4498 16 G25 2396 G25 2475 17 G22a 2144 X38 2291 18 X38 2091 FM 2016 19 FM 2021 G29 2000 20 G29 2000 X25a 1957 21 X25a 1963 G28 1898 22 G28 1899 G26 1650 23 G26 1650 F30a 1500 24 F30a 1500 X37b 1497 25 X37b 1499 K7a 1421 26 K7a 1421 X31b 1186 27 H22a 1212 H30 1025 28 H31b 1187 G30 1000 29 H30 1025 X37 997 30 X37 999 K8 992 Totals Box cars 71468 72387 Hoppers 80888 79302 Gondolas 65958 64980 Flat cars 3521 3516 Stock Cars 1421 2413 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 11:28 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Fellow SPF's: I am contemplating modeling a fifty car Pennsy Coal Train in HO scale to represent circa 1950. I would like to gather input from list members in regards to: 1). What would be a realistic ratio for the 50 cars to breakdown into classes GLa, GLc, GLca, H21, H25 and H31? 2). What other roads open hoppers would most commonly be seen in a Pennsy coal drag moving east to west or vice versa in Central Pennsylvania? 3). Would it be common to see different grades and or types of coal in different cars in the same train? Thanks in advance, Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Don Harper Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:40:17 -0600 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Feb 2005 14:45:46.0264 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D311180:01C514FF] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gus Don't exclude other road names. I met a guy at the museum down here who once worked for the Pennsy in eastern PA. He said he saw a lot of Montour hoppers go by on PRR coal drags. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu On Feb 16, 2005, at 10:27 PM, AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com wrote: Fellow SPF's: I am contemplating modeling a fifty car Pennsy Coal Train in HO scale to represent circa 1950. I would like to gather input from list members in regards to: 1). What would be a realistic ratio for the 50 cars to breakdown into classes GLa, GLc, GLca, H21, H25 and H31? 2). What other roads open hoppers would most commonly be seen in a Pennsy coal drag moving east to west or vice versa in Central Pennsylvania? 3). Would it be common to see different grades and or types of coal in different cars in the same train? Thanks in advance, Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:53:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <7170fb7814516a803f867f336c2e627f@tamug.edu> Thread-index: AcUU/3YRNVz6PEvtR6iv1t67VFBjJwAAHcVQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The other big mine-owned fleet was Berwind (of Windber PA). I have heard they had the contracts to supply coal to most of the coal burning ships using the port of NY. Lots of Berwind hoppers could be found moving east on the PRR. Several years ago the Keystone had an extensive article on Berwind. It used lots of Gla's and its own BW1 class. The former is available in HO from Westerfield or Bowser, the latter from F&C. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Don Harper Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:40 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Gus Don't exclude other road names. I met a guy at the museum down here who once worked for the Pennsy in eastern PA. He said he saw a lot of Montour hoppers go by on PRR coal drags. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu On Feb 16, 2005, at 10:27 PM, AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com wrote: Fellow SPF's: I am contemplating modeling a fifty car Pennsy Coal Train in HO scale to represent circa 1950. I would like to gather input from list members in regards to: 1). What would be a realistic ratio for the 50 cars to breakdown into classes GLa, GLc, GLca, H21, H25 and H31? 2). What other roads open hoppers would most commonly be seen in a Pennsy coal drag moving east to west or vice versa in Central Pennsylvania? 3). Would it be common to see different grades and or types of coal in different cars in the same train? Thanks in advance, Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:06:41 -0500 From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:07:36 -0500 From: Don Harper [mailto:harperd@tamug.edu] Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:48:53 -0600 To: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 16, 2005, at 10:27 PM, AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com wrote: >> 1). What would be a realistic ratio for the 50 cars to breakdown into >> classes GLa, GLc, GLca, H21, H25 and H31? Andy Miller replied: > Here's a table of the top 30 classes of PRR cars in 1943 and 1945. It > may > answer some of your questions. I may also have later data, but will > have to > look later for it. Fellows, for PRR freight car frequencies, go to: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/topclass/index.html This includes the 1943 and 1945 data, as well as many other years and allows searching by type. A search with "1949" and "hoppers" resulted in: H21A 39622 GLA 25500 GLCA 8242 H25 5220 H30 1325 - covered hopper, so it doesn't count in this discussion I would also highly recommend John Teichmoeller's book on open steel hopper cars of the PRR. Tim Gilbert has replied on the STMFC list that > The distribution of PRR Loaded Hoppers was not the same as the > distribution of hoppers > owned by the PRR at the time The bottom line is that H21 was by far the dominant hopper and the GLA was in second by a mile... so you can't go too wrong with lots of them. The H25s would have been mixed in with the H21as (nearly indistinguishable). The GLCAs are really the only class that might appropriate to "under represent" because of their age... but you should have a few mixed in. The distinctive side sills will break up the train nicely > 2). What other roads open hoppers would most commonly be seen in a > Pennsy > coal drag moving east to west or vice versa in Central Pennsylvania? It might be easier to list the ones you would not be likely to see... For example, western roads like UP, AT&SF, CB&Q would be unlikely. PA roads like P&LE would be fairly common. I also see a fair number of B&O and Reading hoppers, but very few N&W and C&O. The "Bob Charles" collection had a CofG hopper in Harrisburg, along with at least 15 other foreign roads. There are also some great yard shots in books by Don Ball and others - look and see what it there. > > 3). Would it be common to see different grades and or types of coal in > different cars in the same train? YES! It would most likely be in "blocks" of specific types of coal depending on mine of origin and destination, but absolutely. 1950 is too early for unit trains of coal headed for a single consumer... with some exceptions (like the Elmira branch) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 16:26:29 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:47:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, I think I will come to Andy's defense. In the Autumn 1986 issue of the Keystone one can find a nice size article on Berwind Hopper Cars by Rich Burg.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:47:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hmmm. Always check the Keystone first. The Autumn 1986 issue starting on p. 7 has a great article on Berwind, also by Richard Burg. I don't have the RMC article, but I would not be surprised if the RMC article has more editing and less pictures. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag > Andy Miller wrote: > "Several years ago the Keystone had an extensive article on Berwind." > > Andy, would it kill you to do your homework? The Berwind article was NOT > in the Keystone, but was in the October 1986 issue of Railroad Model > Craftsman - Richard Burg's "The Berwind Hopper Cars", page 74. A keyword > search at the on-line Model Train Magazine Index under "Berwind" would > have brought it up right away. > > I know you're trying to help out, but if you're going to point people to a > reference, you can at least send them to the right place. > > > Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 17:01:03 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:45:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <021720051701.2438.4214CDCF000118EF000009862160281302030108D20D@att.net> Thread-index: AcUVEwhvE+RSE1GYQyCph+yTQGzqbQABRkAQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of b.hom@att.net . . . OK, I'll concede that point. My apologies to Andy. 1986 is a bit more than "several years ago," though... . . . Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Not when you're my age ;-) I still remember steam in revenue service (on the LIRR)! regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Great lakes boats URL Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:16:26 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This URL will take you to a very large page of Great L:akes boats, tugs and Hullett unloaders. The one in Cleveland at first glance appears to be the PRR to me. www.mhsd.org/ photogallery/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:26:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Great lakes boats URL X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/17/05 5:22:42 PM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > > This URL will take you to a very large page of Great L:akes boats, tugs and > Hullett unloaders. The one in Cleveland at first glance appears to be the > PRR to me. > > www.mhsd.org/ photogallery/ > It appears that an extra space crept in to spoil the soup. The URL that worked for me was: http://www.mhsd.org/photogallery/ Al Stump ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:46:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/17/05 11:52:05 AM, asmiller@mitre.org writes: >Not when you're my age ;-) I still remember steam in revenue service >(on >the LIRR)! > >regards, > >Andy Miller >****************** Hey, I remember steam in revenue service on the LIRR and I'm not that old!! The only supermarket around was the A&P in Hicksville. We would drive there on Saturdays. Often, the gates would go down and a steam engine pulling passenger cars would head on in to Jamaica while my parents hauled stuff out to the car. What was that, 1952 or 1953? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:36:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Heck in 1952 or 3 my father was 2 or 3. :-) Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag > > In a message dated 2/17/05 11:52:05 AM, asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > >Not when you're my age ;-) I still remember steam in revenue service > >(on > >the LIRR)! > > > >regards, > > > >Andy Miller > >****************** > Hey, I remember steam in revenue service on the LIRR and I'm not that old!! > > The only supermarket around was the A&P in Hicksville. We would drive there > on Saturdays. Often, the gates would go down and a steam engine pulling > passenger cars would head on in to Jamaica while my parents hauled stuff out to the > car. > > What was that, 1952 or 1953? > > Regards, Marty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:35:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Some thoughts on wood vs. single sheathed vs. all-steel X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/12/2005 1:12:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: One last point - "outside braced" is another bogus modelers' term that should be relegated to the trash bin. The steel structural members don't really "brace" the car side. They really serve as a truss that carries the load of the car. Industry publications refer to these cars as "single-sheathed," NEVER "outside braced." Ben Hom Gentlemen, 1. Amen. The trade called these "single sheathed" -- go read antique Car Cyclopedias for a good look at this. 2. Trivia question: does a single sheathed car necessarily have a steel underframe? Is "single sheathed steel frame boxcar" a redundant phrase? 3. It seems from photos that most all-wood cars had outside sheathing -- and I assume they had inside sheathing as well, to hold a grain load. If not, can you imagine the carside blowing out under the sideways pressure of a carload of grain -- it would probably push boards right off the nail heads. 4. I believe the single sheathed design was an attempt to reduce cost of building the car, meanwhile using the side trusses also to contain the outwards push of the load. It also figures in the history of trying to get the ratio of tare (empty car weight) to payload as low as possible. 5. One of the fun things in reading about the early days of the all-steel car designs was that in the first designs, it wasn't known just how to use the steel efficiently, and the empty cars weighed a lot more than say an X26. I believe the tare-to-load ratio for all-steel cars prior to the X29 (and comparable NYC and B&O steel cars) was truly awful -- but as designs improved (and load capacity increased), this ratio improved, notably with the X31 and then with later designs, right up to the post-WWII craze for "lightweight" boxcars. Incidentally, I can't prove that the X43 subclasses were "lightweight" designs, but we do know that a number of them exhibited structural problems with the frame, so perhaps they were too "lightweight" for service on the Pennsy. 6. If one checks the stats, I believe the modern 100-ton grain covered hopper must have about the lightest tare-to-load ratio of any freight car. After all, they're optimized to be filled with a single commodity of known density, and every pound of steel is placed where it will do the most good. Meanwhile, back to the fascinating subject of PRR's prewar boxcars... Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:35:30 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on wood vs. single sheathed vs. all-steel boxcars In a message dated 2/12/2005 1:12:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: One last point - "outside braced" is another bogus modelers' term that should be relegated to the trash bin. The steel structural members don't really "brace" the car side. They really serve as a truss that carries the load of the car. Industry publications refer to these cars as "single-sheathed," NEVER "outside braced." Ben Hom Gentlemen, 1. Amen. The trade called these "single sheathed" -- go read antique Car Cyclopedias for a good look at this. 2. Trivia question: does a single sheathed car necessarily have a steel underframe? Is "single sheathed steel frame boxcar" a redundant phrase? 3. It seems from photos that most all-wood cars had outside sheathing -- and I assume they had inside sheathing as well, to hold a grain load. If not, can you imagine the carside blowing out under the sideways pressure of a carload of grain -- it would probably push boards right off the nail heads. 4. I believe the single sheathed design was an attempt to reduce cost of building the car, meanwhile using the side trusses also to contain the outwards push of the load. It also figures in the history of trying to get the ratio of tare (empty car weight) to payload as low as possible. 5. One of the fun things in reading about the early days of the all-steel car designs was that in the first designs, it wasn't known just how to use the steel efficiently, and the empty cars weighed a lot more than say an X26. I believe the tare-to-load ratio for all-steel cars prior to the X29 (and comparable NYC and B&O steel cars) was truly awful -- but as designs improved (and load capacity increased), this ratio improved, notably with the X31 and then with later designs, right up to the post-WWII craze for "lightweight" boxcars. Incidentally, I can't prove that the X43 subclasses were "lightweight" designs, but we do know that a number of them exhibited structural problems with the frame, so perhaps they were too "lightweight" for service on the Pennsy. 6. If one checks the stats, I believe the modern 100-ton grain covered hopper must have about the lightest tare-to-load ratio of any freight car. After all, they're optimized to be filled with a single commodity of known density, and every pound of steel is placed where it will do the most good. Meanwhile, back to the fascinating subject of PRR's prewar boxcars... Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EpW3eD/3MnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <57006d8a3ab36269d2e5de383172dd63@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-Talk LIST From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] Pre-War Broadway Limited -- Short? Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:42:21 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was looking at the makeup of the pre-war Broadway Limited. The 4/1939 Makeup book is on Rob's site. It shows on each of... BM70m B70 18RMT 3DBR-LNG Diner (4420 or 4423) 44-2 13DBR 2MBR-1DBR-LNG That's it! Was it really this short of a train in 1939? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:54:09 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Pre-War Broadway Limited -- Short? Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:15:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal References: <007601c514e6$73ac1c20$6401a8c0@Lane01> <5.1.0.14.2.20050217132201.00bb7cf0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050217132201.00bb7cf0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Larry Kline posted the following list (below) to the Steam era freight car group in January after I mentioned his talk at Cocoa Beach. The numbers are from a survey of the Bob Charles NMRA photo collection. These photos all date ca. 1947 and were shot in the Harrisburg eastbound yard. Larry indicates that these should probably not be regarded as a statistical count of these "foreign" hoppers. Larry also gave a count of 35 PRR hoppers, but it seems clear that this is probably an undercount... after all, why shoot every H21A you see? NYC 9 BWCX 8 RDG 7 D&H 6 P&LE 6 DL&W 3 ERIE 3 LNE 3 LV 3 N&W 3 W&LE 3 B&O 2 B&LE 2 BM 2 CRP 2 NH 2 NKP 2 PMcK&Y 2 P&WV 2 WAB 2 B&A 1 COG 1 CRR 1 DT&I 1 Montour 1 MP 1 NC&StL 1 PS 1 SL&BER 1 UNION 1 VGN 1 WM 1 In addition, I looked throught a number of my books last night and came up with a similar collection of road names. Several interesting observations came out of that. First, in any 1950 era PRR coal train, you could see at least one GLC/GLCA, recognizable by the fishbelly side sill. In addition, numerous foreign cars were visible by their design. Most obvious were the offset hoppers. I also observed that in many cases, although not always, 2, 3 and 4 bay hoppers were mixed randomly. One final observation... in Trackside Under PRR Wires, there is a photo from 9/61 of a coal train eastbound on the C&PD at Safe Harbor with what appears to be a block of at least 9 C&I offset hoppers. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:40:04 -0800 (PST) From: Angela Sutton Subject: re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:11:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <50215.66.157.148.44.1108736115.squirrel@www.vetmed.auburn.edu> Thread-index: AcUVxS5VjkY+aILZT2SQ0lh0KGw3UQABllBQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Significantly absent in this list of foreign coal hoppers is C&O! regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:15 AM To: prr-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; Prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag Larry Kline posted the following list (below) to the Steam era freight car group in January after I mentioned his talk at Cocoa Beach. The numbers are from a survey of the Bob Charles NMRA photo collection. These photos all date ca. 1947 and were shot in the Harrisburg eastbound yard. Larry indicates that these should probably not be regarded as a statistical count of these "foreign" hoppers. Larry also gave a count of 35 PRR hoppers, but it seems clear that this is probably an undercount... after all, why shoot every H21A you see? NYC 9 BWCX 8 RDG 7 D&H 6 P&LE 6 DL&W 3 ERIE 3 LNE 3 LV 3 N&W 3 W&LE 3 B&O 2 B&LE 2 BM 2 CRP 2 NH 2 NKP 2 PMcK&Y 2 P&WV 2 WAB 2 B&A 1 COG 1 CRR 1 DT&I 1 Montour 1 MP 1 NC&StL 1 PS 1 SL&BER 1 UNION 1 VGN 1 WM 1 In addition, I looked throught a number of my books last night and came up with a similar collection of road names. Several interesting observations came out of that. First, in any 1950 era PRR coal train, you could see at least one GLC/GLCA, recognizable by the fishbelly side sill. In addition, numerous foreign cars were visible by their design. Most obvious were the offset hoppers. I also observed that in many cases, although not always, 2, 3 and 4 bay hoppers were mixed randomly. One final observation... in Trackside Under PRR Wires, there is a photo from 9/61 of a coal train eastbound on the C&PD at Safe Harbor with what appears to be a block of at least 9 C&I offset hoppers. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:19:55 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/18/05 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:22:04 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/18/05 Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:56:11 -0600 To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 18, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > > Significantly absent in this list of foreign coal hoppers is C&O! As I noted yesterday... I did find one C&O car in looking through all of the books I have, so it may have happened, but it was quite rare. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-talk] Some thoughts on wood vs. single sheathed Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:36:33 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:27:45 +0000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:12:13 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Sandy Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com WHOA, easy there young'un so was I. A little respect please. " It ain= 't the years, it's the mileage." Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Brian J Carlson=0D Date: 02/17/05 23:41:20=0D To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag=0D =0D Heck in 1952 or 3 my father was 2 or 3. :-)=0D =0D Brian J Carlson P.E.=0D Cheektowaga NY=0D ----- Original Message -----=0D From: =0D To: ; ; =0D Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:46 PM=0D Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag=0D =0D =0D >=0D > In a message dated 2/17/05 11:52:05 AM, asmiller@mitre.org writes:=0D >=0D > >Not when you're my age ;-) I still remember steam in revenue service= =0D > >(on=0D > >the LIRR)!=0D > >=0D > >regards,=0D > >=0D > >Andy Miller=0D > >******************=0D > Hey, I remember steam in revenue service on the LIRR and I'm not that=0D old!!=0D >=0D > The only supermarket around was the A&P in Hicksville. We would drive=0D there=0D > on Saturdays. Often, the gates would go down and a steam engine pulling= =0D > passenger cars would head on in to Jamaica while my parents hauled stuf= f=0D out to the=0D > car.=0D >=0D > What was that, 1952 or 1953?=0D >=0D > Regards, Marty=0D > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= =0D > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D >=0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pre-War Broadway Limited -- Short? Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:51:51 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Who was going to ride it? Smaller population. Just coming out of the depression. Extra Fare! I believe it was Welch's book which indicated the 4-4-2 in particular was a hard sell to the railroads. There are only so many millionaires but all those salesmen (and my dad who did about 50% travel) rode the rails---just not in private rooms. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" > That's it! Was it really this short of a train in 1939? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:02:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ahem, Gentlemen. In '52 I was 7 in western Pennsylvania and my dad took the train every day to Pittsburgh to work. We lived in the first house he and my mom bought after he was demobilized from WWII. I remember all of us taking the train to Pittsburgh to shop for Christmas and look at the lights in the stores--and the trains in the windows--on Smithfield Street and other places. I remember hoping that we would draw--or at least see passing through--steam engines. Those are very fond memories, and I offer a Friday night toast to all of you who also remember those times. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Lash" To: "Brian J Carlson" ; Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag WHOA, easy there young'un so was I. A little respect please. " It ain't the years, it's the mileage." Jim -------Original Message------- From: Brian J Carlson Date: 02/17/05 23:41:20 To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Heck in 1952 or 3 my father was 2 or 3. :-) Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag > > In a message dated 2/17/05 11:52:05 AM, asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > >Not when you're my age ;-) I still remember steam in revenue service > >(on > >the LIRR)! > > > >regards, > > > >Andy Miller > >****************** > Hey, I remember steam in revenue service on the LIRR and I'm not that old!! > > The only supermarket around was the A&P in Hicksville. We would drive there > on Saturdays. Often, the gates would go down and a steam engine pulling > passenger cars would head on in to Jamaica while my parents hauled stuff out to the > car. > > What was that, 1952 or 1953? > > Regards, Marty > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:58:08 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The C&O and N&W hoppers were running North-South in solid strings. But that whole thread would be deja vu all over again :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; ; Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag > Significantly absent in this list of foreign coal hoppers is C&O! > > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:15 AM > To: prr-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; Prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag > > Larry Kline posted the following list (below) to the Steam era freight car > group in January after I mentioned his talk at Cocoa Beach. The numbers are > from a survey of the Bob Charles NMRA photo collection. These photos all > date ca. 1947 and were shot in the Harrisburg eastbound yard. Larry > indicates that these should probably not be regarded as a statistical count > of these "foreign" hoppers. Larry also gave a count of 35 PRR hoppers, but > it seems clear that this is probably an undercount... after all, why shoot > every H21A you see? > > NYC 9 > BWCX 8 > RDG 7 > D&H 6 > P&LE 6 > DL&W 3 > ERIE 3 > LNE 3 > LV 3 > N&W 3 > W&LE 3 > B&O 2 > B&LE 2 > BM 2 > CRP 2 > NH 2 > NKP 2 > PMcK&Y 2 > P&WV 2 > WAB 2 > B&A 1 > COG 1 > CRR 1 > DT&I 1 > Montour 1 > MP 1 > NC&StL 1 > PS 1 > SL&BER 1 > UNION 1 > VGN 1 > WM 1 > > In addition, I looked throught a number of my books last night and came up > with a similar collection of road names. Several interesting observations > came out of that. First, in any 1950 era PRR coal train, you could see at > least one GLC/GLCA, recognizable by the fishbelly side sill. In addition, > numerous foreign cars were visible by their design. > Most obvious were the offset hoppers. I also observed that in many cases, > although not always, 2, 3 and 4 bay hoppers were mixed randomly. > One final observation... in Trackside Under PRR Wires, there is a photo from > 9/61 of a coal train eastbound on the C&PD at Safe Harbor with what appears > to be a block of at least 9 C&I offset hoppers. > > Regards > Bruce > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:37:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Pennsy Coal Drag From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > The C&O and N&W hoppers were running North-South in solid strings. But > that > whole thread would be deja vu all over again :-). > > Bob Zoeller Bob, I know aout the N&W hoppers, but not about the C&O. Could you provide more details? Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] B60 Paint & Lettering Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:45:24 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, I was wondering if somewhere I could find a paint and=20 lettering chronology of the B60 up to and including Penn=20 Central if available. Pictures would also be nice.=20 Picture-wise i'm looking mainly for 40's era and PC era.=20 Any help is appreciated. TIA. Best Regards, John York, PA Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Western Maryland,=20 and Maryland & Pennsylvania. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:59:22 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Significantly absent in this list of foreign coal hoppers is C&O! = = = I wonder if the absence of C&O cars is a result of the animosity (it was more than competition) between the Atterbury PRR and the Van Sweringen C&O?? Of course C&O would want any of its cars back from the "enemy" to which they strayed as soon as possible. And if there were a way to make it happen, the PRR traffic folks would try to steer customers to N&W coal rather than C&O. That thought is based on accounts of the rivalry in Herb Harwood's excellent book on the "Vans." In any case, there's a plausible reason for the PRR modeler to have no C&O hoppers on the railroad. (Well, maybe just one...) Now -- does that also mean that PRR hoppers on the C&O were as rare as hen's teeth? Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA (Ohio in June!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jennifer Rhymes" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. Bar/Lounge Car Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:06:38 -0800 From: precip@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. Bar/Lounge Car Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:26:12 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Good morning, Sounds like a book, movie or restaurant in the works, be sure to keep us posted as to whatever it is (you'll find interest in just about anything Pennsy on the list). As to your question, some of the other guys will probably have access to Broadway-specific menus or may be able to draw on personal recollections, the Broadway was past it's prime by the time I first rode a passenger train. Another possibility are some vintage movies which featured the Broadway, you might ask the group for a listing thereof (some will probably want to know what years you are interested in, as the menu and tastes of patrons likely changed over the years.) Two books which offer a selection of general Pennsylvania Railroad meals are: Dining by Rail - James Porterfield (ISBN 0-312-08768-3) p260-266 list PRR recipes including: corn & green pepper saute, cream of chicken soup roquefort, deviled slice of roast beef with mustard sauce, ginger muffins, pennepicure pie, potted flank of beef trinidad and veal cutlets in paprika sauce. Dinner in the Diner - Will Hollister (0-87046-011-0) p106 - 115 cites more Pennsy dishes: Maryland Butter, Pumpkin Custard pie, Poached Eggs, Crab Meat and Cheese on toast, Scrambled Eggs Country Style, on Deviled Virginia Ham Crouton, Avocado and Orange Juice cocktail, and Omelet Argentine with Egg Plant. Now I believe I am going to go fix breakfast! =) Good luck with your project. best regards, Craig Miller Pittsburgh, PA -------------- Original message from "Jennifer Rhymes" : -------------- > I'm doing some research on the Broadway Ltd. for a project and was hoping to > find some information on the Bar and Lounge cars. Specifically, I wanted to > know the most popular/common drinks served. Also, I want to know what kind > of food was served on board - meals, snacks, appetizers, desserts, etc. > > Anything you can tell me is much appreciated. > > Thank you, > JJ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joseph Witcofsky" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pre-War Broadway Limited -- Short? Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:57:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <001901c5161d$349d8bd0$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [70.21.241.123] at Sat, 19 Feb 2005 08:57:04 -0600 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The train was powered mostly by shrouded k4s at that time that limited the size of the train. Double heading K4s outside of helper districts was not economical. The T1s and diesels that allowed for longer trains were not ready for prime time in 1939. Note that the consist includes two RPO cars, a "depression" era maneuver to increase revenue. This precluded inclusion of additional Pullmans. With first class fare, plus space charge, extra fare, and mail revenue, it did not take a large number of passengers to make money on the train. Even in the "golden era", no train was ever "sold out" every time it operated. There were many days (especially Tuesday and Wednesday) when travel was (is) very light. >From a modeling standpoint, (WKW rumors, it is a whole lot easier to model a 7 or 8 car pre diesel era Broadway or Century consist, than a 14 car diesel era train. JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. Bar/Lounge Car Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:16:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcUWWzECwUi0XN5ZR02u+dV9S3xgTQAPMrKA Message-ID: <1103292681-19501674@dsop.com> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com When talking about the "prewar" Broadway Limited I assume we mean the streamlined, smooth-sided consist that entered service in the midst of the Depression (1938). Remember the Broadway Limited was running since June 1902. At any rate, from my sketchy resources I was able to learn that the mid-train bar/lounge served cocktails and other alcoholic drinks as well as a few non-alcoholic selections. Food staples were limited to nuts, crackers & cheese and other such nibblers. Light sandwich platters may have been available in the earlier part of the day but I could not confirm this. Since these cars were operated by Pullman (and the diners by PRR), there was some effort on Pullman's part to garner some revenue from consumables. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jennifer Rhymes Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 3:07 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. Bar/Lounge Car I'm doing some research on the Broadway Ltd. for a project and was hoping to find some information on the Bar and Lounge cars. Specifically, I wanted to know the most popular/common drinks served. Also, I want to know what kind of food was served on board - meals, snacks, appetizers, desserts, etc. Anything you can tell me is much appreciated. Thank you, JJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:07:42 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Resin Trains BP-20 can work with LifeLike Proto 2000 PA From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:55:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Foreign-road hopper trains on PRR X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/19/2005 5:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 8 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:37:12 -0600 (CST) From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Coal Drag > The C&O and N&W hoppers were running North-South in solid strings. But > that > whole thread would be deja vu all over again :-). > > Bob Zoeller Bob, I know aout the N&W hoppers, but not about the C&O. Could you provide more details? Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL Are we still on the Middle Division here, or have we sequed to the Sandusky Line out of Columbus? On that line (discussed a while back), 1956's rash of railfan pix (alas, motivated as much by the presence of leased Santa Fe power as the swan song of the J1) shows interesting patterns. We see solid loaded trains of L&N hoppers and gons (Kentucky mines via Cincinnati and Xenia to Columbus). We see solid loaded trains of N&W as we'd expect -- the N&W ended at Columbus, and its Joyce Avenue Yard lay end-to-end to the Sandusky Line's Grogan Yard. We even, contrary to what you might think, have PRR pulling solid C&O hopper trains north out of Columbus. The C&O had a main line to Toledo and Michigan running through Columbus, and you'd expect all C&O's lake coal to go that way. But apparently some coal, whether from West Virginia mines or the Hocking Valley fields south of Columbus, was sent to Lake Erie via PRR's Sandusky Line. Of course, after 1964, N&W had the Sandusky Line, and its lake hopper trains were more reliably N&W (with NKP and Virginian hoppers sprinkled in). ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:55:06 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Foreign-road hopper trains on PRR In a message dated 2/19/2005 5:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 8 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:37:12 -0600 (CST) From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Pennsy Coal Drag > The C&O and N&W hoppers were running North-South in solid strings. But > that > whole thread would be deja vu all over again :-). > > Bob Zoeller Bob, I know aout the N&W hoppers, but not about the C&O. Could you provide more details? Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL Are we still on the Middle Division here, or have we sequed to the Sandusky Line out of Columbus? On that line (discussed a while back), 1956's rash of railfan pix (alas, motivated as much by the presence of leased Santa Fe power as the swan song of the J1) shows interesting patterns. We see solid loaded trains of L&N hoppers and gons (Kentucky mines via Cincinnati and Xenia to Columbus). We see solid loaded trains of N&W as we'd expect -- the N&W ended at Columbus, and its Joyce Avenue Yard lay end-to-end to the Sandusky Line's Grogan Yard. We even, contrary to what you might think, have PRR pulling solid C&O hopper trains north out of Columbus. The C&O had a main line to Toledo and Michigan running through Columbus, and you'd expect all C&O's lake coal to go that way. But apparently some coal, whether from West Virginia mines or the Hocking Valley fields south of Columbus, was sent to Lake Erie via PRR's Sandusky Line. Of course, after 1964, N&W had the Sandusky Line, and its lake hopper trains were more reliably N&W (with NKP and Virginian hoppers sprinkled in). ..............................................Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky .....................................................Building a new PRR Buckeye Division .............................................................in HO from Columbus to Xenia, 1966-1968 ...................................................................I'm really looking forward to operating again. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EpW3eD/3MnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:29:54 -0500 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] BALDWIN "SHARKS" QUESTION Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:58:03 -0500 From: Rod Schaffter Subject: [PRR] PRR car in Harford X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0507-4, 02/18/2005), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Gang, I was driving back fron New Haven yesterday, and whilst heading north towards Hartford on I 91, I caught a glimpse of two passenger cars on the siding next to that appears to be the produce terminal. One was a stainless steel (Budd?) car in PRR livery; being a true SPF I can't even recall the other, except it was not PRR. Does anyone know its story? Thanx, Rod Schaffter -- "Powder and artillery are the most efficacious, sure and infallible conciliatory measures we can adopt." - John Adams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car in Harford Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:58:26 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rod, The stainless steel Budd car that you saw was most likely=20 the "Greenwhich Harbor". http://www.aaprco.com/cgi-bin/cardisplay.pl?greenwich-harbor:zip As for the other car I can't tell. Regards, John Rod Schaffter wrote: > Hi Gang, > I was driving back fron New Haven yesterday, and whilst=20 >heading north towards Hartford on I 91, I caught a=20 >glimpse of two passenger cars on the siding next to that=20 >appears to be the produce terminal. One was a stainless=20 >steel (Budd?) car in PRR livery; being a true SPF I can't=20 >even recall the other, except it was not PRR. >=20 > Does anyone know its story? >=20 > Thanx, > Rod Schaffter > --=20 > "Powder and artillery are the most efficacious, sure > and infallible conciliatory measures we can adopt." > - John Adams > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Coal Drag Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:40:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lets us not forget the 1212 H31 hoppers (of which 711 were H31 and 500 were H31b/c). I am redetailing 2 Mantua Classic hoppers to better represent a pair of H31c's. May not be stastically correct as I am allowing each car to represent 1,000 but I wanted something different in that sea of GLa's and H21's. regards, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Mantua "Lindburg Special" Atlantic Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:50:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Before I plunk down my green, does anyone here know how the Atlantic by Mantua compare with a Pennsy E6s? My primary concern is the valve gear followed by the general size. I am not concerned with "superficial" details as these can be added as required. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:47:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mantua "Lindburg Special" Atlantic MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walt, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0I may be off base a little bit because I really didn't pay close attention to the Mantua "Lindburg" special due to its Brass detailing accents. But like you said, that is pretty much superficial and could be changed or painted. But, didn't Mantua make a rendition of the PRR 4-4-2 E7s prior to the E6s? I believe so anyway and if they did the boiler on the E6s is the same one from the E7s which would make it a bit undersize. If I am correct and I were you I would purchase the blue box Mantua E7s instead and purchase some of those MDC Pullman Palace Cars, either in the standard Tuscan or get the new Yellow Kid schemes. It may be a bit earlier than an E6 powered train but it sure would look good......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Mantua "Lindburg Special" Atlantic Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:10:06 -0600 To: "Walter Prusick" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 21, 2005, at 4:50 AM, Walter Prusick wrote: > Before I plunk down my green, does anyone here know how the Atlantic by > Mantua compare with a Pennsy E6s? My primary concern is the valve gear > followed by the general size. I am not concerned with "superficial" > details > as these can be added as required. Walt, IIRC, the Mantua "Lindberg" 4-4-2 is generally acknowledged to be closer to an E3/E7. If you are looking for an E6, the better bets are Bowser and MDC (if you can get it). Whatever you think of it, it almost certainly is not worth the list price... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Mantua PRR Atlantic is closest to E3sa or E7s From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Retrofitting trainphones Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:31:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A new thread. Who knows when the steam engines were retrofitted with trainphones? (With this group, I could say "precisely when" and we'd get days and times.) I am interested in particular with the K4s and I1s. Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jennifer Rhymes" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. Bar/Lounge Car Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:33:32 -0800 >From: precip@att.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. Bar/Lounge Car >Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:26:12 +0000 From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) BLI M1b problems Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:52:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:06:33 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) BLI M1b problems Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam: First, you could try asking this on the QSIndustries yahoogroup -- maybe someone there might have a better idea. Second, what are you using to control it? DCC? DC? Could you be running a DC power pack with "pulse"? That could be confusing the locomotive. Jeff Warner Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > I just got my first BLI loco and I am having problems with it. I am > getting a chirp noise intermittently when running it. It sound like a > smoke detector that has a weak battery. Also it has shut down > completely several times. I have contacted BLI 2 times but yet to > resolve the problem. Any of you have this issue? If so how did you > get it resolved? I really don't want to send it back for repairs but > it almost looks like that is my only alternative. I have already > reset it 2 times, That works for a while then the problem comes back. > > Thanks > > Sam Vastano > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:40:16 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] F38 actually is neither PK nor CK... In a message dated 2/20/2005 3:48:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: Al, Can one assume then that the F38 was the first car to wear the PK while in service circa 1953-54? This would be about 7 years prior to across the board PK use on the rest of the freight car fleet. I thought sure the F38 would have had the CK and if not that, the SK like the F40....Gary Gary and Al, We're looking at the PRR builder photos of this F38 that appear "everywhere" -- for example, in the Car Cycs and othere Simmons-Boardman publications. It does appear that the backs of the brakewheel stands are decorated with a "modern" looking unshadowed keystone. However, the side lettering on the car leaves no doubt that this is but a small departure from PRR's standard CK lettering. Thus, we might say it looks like this car might have been the first freight car to display a PK. However, we must also be careful to say this is not a standard "PK lettering scheme" as the term is normally understood from Keystone articles, etc. (i.e. the Brady McGuire taxonomy of standard lettering for freight cars). Further, since generally CK-era flats (1930-1954) don't carry the CK herald, they are -- technically speaking -- still the same as the previous (NK4) lettering scheme. Flat cars shared this lettering peculiarity -- or should I call it a degeneracy -- with PRR's cabin car lettering in the CK era (early CK tests on N5 and special CK designed for N8's noted as exceptions to this). I make this baldfaced statement rather confidently, as I've been indexing both flat cars and cabin cars for some years, with the objective of writing "Standard Lettering" articles for the Keystone. BTW, I came in late -- has anyone located F38 pix other than the as-built PRR company photos? Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:40:16 EST Subject: [PRR] F38 actually is neither PK nor CK... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 2/20/2005 3:48:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: Al, Can one assume then that the F38 was the first car to wear the PK while in service circa 1953-54? This would be about 7 years prior to across the board PK use on the rest of the freight car fleet. I thought sure the F38 would have had the CK and if not that, the SK like the F40....Gary Gary and Al, We're looking at the PRR builder photos of this F38 that appear "everywhere" -- for example, in the Car Cycs and othere Simmons-Boardman publications. It does appear that the backs of the brakewheel stands are decorated with a "modern" looking unshadowed keystone. However, the side lettering on the car leaves no doubt that this is but a small departure from PRR's standard CK lettering. Thus, we might say it looks like this car might have been the first freight car to display a PK. However, we must also be careful to say this is not a standard "PK lettering scheme" as the term is normally understood from Keystone articles, etc. (i.e. the Brady McGuire taxonomy of standard lettering for freight cars). Further, since generally CK-era flats (1930-1954) don't carry the CK herald, they are -- technically speaking -- still the same as the previous (NK4) lettering scheme. Flat cars shared this lettering peculiarity -- or should I call it a degeneracy -- with PRR's cabin car lettering in the CK era (early CK tests on N5 and special CK designed for N8's noted as exceptions to this). I make this baldfaced statement rather confidently, as I've been indexing both flat cars and cabin cars for some years, with the objective of writing "Standard Lettering" articles for the Keystone. BTW, I came in late -- has anyone located F38 pix other than the as-built PRR company photos? Rick Tipton - Louisville Kentucky Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and PRR Lines West of Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] F38 actually is neither PK nor CK... Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:19:47 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: F38 actually is neither PK nor CK I don't think we said it was PK or CK (scheme) all we said was it had a PK (in the pre-PK era scheme). Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:38:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] (PRR) BLI M1b problems From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam sez: > I just got my first BLI loco and I am having problems with it. I am > getting > a chirp noise intermittently when running it. It sound like a smoke > detector > that has a weak battery. Also it has shut down completely several times. I > have contacted BLI 2 times but yet to resolve the problem. Any of you > have > this issue? If so how did you get it resolved? I really don't want to send > it back for repairs but it almost looks like that is my only alternative. > I > have already reset it 2 times, That works for a while then the problem > comes > back. Sam, As has been noted on a number of lists (although maybe not these 2), the BLI M1A/B has a problem with the electronics shorting. Two locations have been noted; the speakers impinging on the frame, and the volume knob impinging on the reset jumper. The easiest fixes are to remove the tender shell (remember thos screws BLI forgot) and then gently bend the reset jumper to one side. Make sure the speakers are well seated, and insulate with electrical tape if needed. If this doesn't solve the problem CALL BLI. They do not respond to email in a timely fashion (If ever). Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:19:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] F38 actually is neither PK nor CK... Re: F38 actually is neither PK nor CK I don't think we said it was PK or CK (scheme) all we said was it had a PK (in the pre-PK era scheme). Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi.... I'm looking for some info on "Ventilated" Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard boxcars that traveled on the PRR from the South in the 1950s. I don't know much on the routing off these cars on the PRR. I have seen photos and movies of large blocks off the unique cars headed north on PRR's mainline between Wash DC to NYC but that the only place I know where the cars traveled.. These ventilated cars are 35' with 2 doors on each side and one door looks like a "screen door". I know some of you boxcars experts know what I'm talking about. (I hope) I was wondering if the Pittsburgh Div would see these types of trains in the 1950s? Also, does anyone know what route these trains would take after being handed over to the PRR at POT Yard to get to Harrisburg and the West? (Port Road or Northern Central) Thanks in advance... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:51:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dave, while you didn't mention them there's plenty of evidence of C of G vents cars traveling along the same routes. The reason that I mention this is that within the next couple of weeks a new C of G vent cars will be available in one piece resin. I will forward your e-mail to John Golden as I'm sure he can help out with the SAL cars. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:17:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, The PRR was originally a partner with ACL in the Atlantic Coast Despatch and cars remained lettered for this line until after WW II. The ACL-SAL HS publication article on ventilated boxcars showed a photo of one in Zanesville, OH, in the 1950's, so I'd assume it moved over the Pittsburgh division. I have been awaiting ANY correct ventilated boxcar for 20 years. I have not yet figured out how to scratchbuild the door in N scale! The ventilator door had bars and screens. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR > Dave, while you didn't mention them there's plenty of evidence of C of G > vents cars traveling along the same routes. The reason that I mention this > is that > within the next couple of weeks a new C of G vent cars will be available > in > one piece resin. I will forward your e-mail to John Golden as I'm sure he > can > help out with the SAL cars. Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:50:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR H21 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com PRR Fans: Thanks to everyone who supplied information regarding modeling a prototypical Pennsy Coal Drag in HO scale. Can anyone tell me what the physical differences are if any between a PRR H21 and an H25 Coal Hopper? Thanks Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:52:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yes, We've been waiting for a "correct" ACL or SAL "ventilater" car too. A very tough car to scratch build. I think the cars were done in brass years ago. I bought some photos of the Seaboard class V9 and V10 cars from Bob's Photos a while back. Bob is supposed to be at the PRR meet in Camp Hill this year. Hopefully I can get some photos of the ACL and C of G cars. I guess we could run a block of vent cars west over our Pittsburgh Division layout. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:15:35 -0800 (PST) From: Angela Sutton Subject: [PRR] H21 vs. H25 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:22:51 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 23:34:36 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What was wrong with theWesterfield cars? Not too far from the top of my long list of to-do cars in storage. I was planning to do c1949 Atlantic Dispatch car (going from memory as to date). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Yes, We've been waiting for a "correct" ACL or SAL > "ventilater" car too. A very tough car to scratch build. I think the > cars were done in brass years ago. I bought some photos of the Seaboard > class V9 and V10 cars from Bob's Photos a while back. Bob is supposed to > be at the PRR meet in Camp Hill this year. Hopefully I can get some > photos of the ACL and C of G cars. > I guess we could run a block of vent cars west over our > Pittsburgh Division layout. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:05:53 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <001a01c518a0$3398e7e0$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dave Hopson wrote: ...We've been waiting for a "correct" ACL or SAL "ventilator" car too." Bob Zoeller responded: "What was wrong with the Westerfield cars?" http://www.westerfield.biz/cg550001.htm Absolutely nothing; however, they only model a minority of the ACL fleet. The Westerfield car is a 40 ft car; the majority of the ventilated boxcar fleet were 36 ft cars. The Class O-17 36 ft cars are available from Sunshine Models in their 35 series kits: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20products/sunshine/sunkits1120 03main.html Additionally, AHM once offered a 36 ft ventilated boxcar. It was marketed as an "old-time" car, but is actually a model of ACL Class O-17. Replacing the running board, trucks, and grabs (the grabs are actally a separate "ladder" molding) and adding brake detail actually makes a decent model. It's now available from Con-Cor. Ambroid also offered this car if you're into boxes of wood. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:48:36 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Some of these cars came north by way of the Delmarva Division and the car floats. If memory serves, there is a color photo of one in ??Ball's PRR in the 40s...on a car float. There is also mention (and a photo) of blocks of FGE reefers going north to Edgemoor (Wilm, DE) for sorting and forwarding. I wasn't here in the era to know if there were blocks of ACL & SAL cars going north. I suspect there were as the NYP&N was built to tap the North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia produce markets for the North and this was the shortest, quickest way from south to north...still is. The NYP&N/PRR interchanged with both ACL and SAL in Portsmouth (VA) via the Beltline and/or direct car float service before the beltline. Jim McDaniel, ready for spring in Delmarva...40 degrees and drizzle ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:40:28 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm not sure if we're talking the same routing, but sometime in the last 72 hours, I have seen blocks of these cars (probably in a video). If I can retrace my steps I may be able to pin it down. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" > I wasn't here in the era to know if there were blocks of ACL & SAL cars > going north. I suspect there were as the NYP&N was built to tap the > North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia produce markets for the North > and this was the shortest, quickest way from south to north...still is. > The NYP&N/PRR interchanged with both ACL and SAL in Portsmouth (VA) > via the Beltline and/or direct car float service before the beltline. > > Jim McDaniel, ready for spring in Delmarva...40 degrees and drizzle ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:44:28 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yeah, I was aware of the 40 ft vs. 36 ft versions---I'm sure someone on the list can give us a roster breakdown in,say 1945-55 era (hint :-)). Actually, given the dimension difference, my ORER could probably give a hint. In any case, cool cars to model. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Hom" http://www.westerfield.biz/cg550001.htm > Absolutely nothing; however, they only model a minority of the ACL fleet. > The Westerfield car is a 40 ft car; the majority of the ventilated boxcar > fleet were 36 ft cars. The Class O-17 36 ft cars are available from > Sunshine Models in their 35 series kits: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR H21 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:50:05 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <1aa.323e0f7c.2f4c1403@cs.com> Thread-Index: AcUYmnSWVKZWOLKxQi+FPhJdL0pSDAASkgvA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Your best bet is to get a copy of Teichmuller's excellent book on PRR hoppers. It says it all. But you've probably heard that before. In the meanwhile the most prominent visible differences are: 1. the vertical posts on the ends are one piece stamped steel on the H25, the are back-to-back angles on the H21. 2. the side stakes are tapered on the H25, they are straight (until some rebuilding) on the H21. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:50 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR H21 PRR Fans: Thanks to everyone who supplied information regarding modeling a prototypical Pennsy Coal Drag in HO scale. Can anyone tell me what the physical differences are if any between a PRR H21 and an H25 Coal Hopper? Thanks Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:56:56 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Retrofitting trainphones >From: "TCJ Riggs" >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:31:58 -0500 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:06:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-reply-to: <20050222052251.11073.qmail@web31002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thread-Index: AcUYn9hv00IjA5bEQnOvfxYWtfwPagARzuAQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Seaboard also had ventilated steel box cars in express service. They looked very much like an X29 with a large rectangular vent in the lower right hand corner of each side. I've seen photos of Florida trains on the PRR NY-Wash corridor with them among the head end. I've kit bashed one from a Red Caboose kit and run it in my Silver Meteor (sorry Joe ;-) along with my kit bashed Seaboard baggage car. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of robert netzlof Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:23 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ACL & SAL Ventilated Cars on PRR --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > The PRR was originally a partner with ACL in the Atlantic Coast > Despatch and cars remained lettered for this line until after WW II. I recall now and again seeing ACD cars pass through Latrobe during WW2. Usually a car now and again, don't recall seeing groups of them. Some of them were actually loaded with watermelons, visible through the ventilated door. There is a photo at the Latrobe Historical Society which shows one of the cars peeking out from behind the end of another car at the freight house in Latrobe. The photo is said to be from 1903. Judging by the different tones of gray, it appears the car was in the old yellow paint with the red background in the herald. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 vs. H25 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:07:51 -0600 To: Angela Sutton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 21, 2005, at 11:15 PM, Angela Sutton wrote: > Gus, > The H25 differs from the H21 group mainly in framing members. > The H25 side stakes taper at top and bottom symmetrically, the H21a > tapers asymmetrically (shorter taper at the bottom). H25's use a > single pressed-steel part for end verticals, where the H21a uses > paired angles. Also, the H25 end sill and bottom chord on the side > are substantially thinner. Just to confuse matter a wee but further, > though, around 1949-1950 several hundred H25's (roughly 20-25% of the > class) were converted to H25a, physically identical to the H21e > rebuilds going on concurrently - which is to say, how many classes can > you reletter an H21a model for with minimal physical changes? 4 and > counting... Well, not it you model 1944 The H25 remains perhaps the biggest hole for the steam and transition era PRR modeler. In HO scale, Railworks and Sunset imported these cars in brass, but the cars suffer from pressed sides, which result in unacceptable interiors. One option with these models is to make an interior for the sides using sheet styrene. Roller Bearing Models offered an H25... but there are few who would consider this an acceptable model either. BCW sells H25 ends, designed for the Bowser H21. One could make a master of the H25 rib, and use either the Bowser or Westerfield H21, slice off all the ribs, cast your own ribs in resin and add the BCW ends to get an H25. The good news is that you don't need too many ... for my 250 PRR car fleet, I only need 5. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:22:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mantua "Lindberg Special" Atlantic From: Mark Cole From: "Jim Hawk" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR H21 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:04:54 -0500 >From: "Andy Miller" >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR H21 >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:50:05 -0500 >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of >Subject: [PRR] PRR H21 From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Retrofitting trainphones Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:24:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank you very much, Tom. I joined the list about 6 months ago. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hayden" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:56 AM Subject: [PRR] Retrofitting trainphones > Tom, > > Here's what I posted a couple years ago. > > "The 1937-39 efforts were experimental only. Railway Age magazine Feb 1944 > has explanation of the first real tests. A Nov 1944 issue describes > extensive implementation over the year of 1944. I think it was deployed as > fully as it ever was over the next few years." These were trainphones on > Steam locos. > > Tom Hayden > > > > >From: "TCJ Riggs" > >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:31:58 -0500 > > > >A new thread. Who knows when the steam engines were retrofitted with > >trainphones? (With this group, I could say "precisely when" and we'd get > >days and times.) I am interested in particular with the K4s and I1s. > > > >Tom Riggs > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _ > Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by MessageLabs. For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > ____________________________________________________________________________ _ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:03:32 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags Thread-Index: AcUWUmlu2Fp4A6moSZye2FoQNSVh8gDbjVrg From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Peter Weiglin" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2005 16:03:33.0757 (UTC) FILETIME=[39B67AD0:01C519C1] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Despite the fact that the Pennsy owned about 1/3 of the N&W, I do not believe much animosity existed between two roads. After all, the Pennsy's Js are based on tests the PRR did with the C&O's T1s. And, I seem to recall a story about the C&O testing one of the PRR's T1's on the George Washington, being stuck due to wheel slippage when trying to move the train at grade out of a station. I also seem to recall a picture in one of the Morning Sun books of a Mt. Carmel train using borrowed C&O geeps. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 12:59 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags > Significantly absent in this list of foreign coal hoppers is C&O! =3D =3D =3D I wonder if the absence of C&O cars is a result of the animosity (it was more than competition) between the Atterbury PRR and the Van Sweringen C&O?? Of course C&O would want any of its cars back from the "enemy" to which they strayed as soon as possible. And if there were a way to make it happen, the PRR traffic folks would try to steer customers to N&W coal rather than C&O. That thought is based on accounts of the rivalry in Herb Harwood's excellent book on the "Vans." In any case, there's a plausible reason for the PRR modeler to have no C&O hoppers on the railroad. (Well, maybe just one...) Now -- does that also mean that PRR hoppers on the C&O were as rare as hen's teeth? Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA (Ohio in June!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:01:18 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] > Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags (C&O/J-1) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:39:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another reason Pennsy adopted the C&O design for the J-1 IIRC was govt. limitations on new designs/engineering during the war. But they sure managed to "Pennsy-ize" the C&O 2-10-4 by the time they adopted it. Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" ; "Peter Weiglin" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags > During the same period, the PRR also tested a N&W A > class 2-6-6-4 as well as a J class 4-8-4, but neither > was felt as sucessful as the C&O T. Although the A was > quite impressive, they felt that the articulated > concept wasn't mechanically acceptable to the > mechanical department. I've read that they didn't like > the maintenance problems with the articulation joint > (in Don Ball's book) and I suspect that it was felt > that when the locomotive was shopped it was the > equivalent of losing two non-articulated locomotives > from service (incidently, about 25 years later this > was the same rationale that killed the double diesels > of the mid-1960's... you could think of it as another > case of the PRR being ahead of their time.) The J was > impressive, but the PRR was apparently aprehensive of > building a passenger locomotive with smaller (72") > drivers as opposed to their standard 80" passenger > driver. And they were very consious of damage to the > track structure by rod pounding (which is one of the > reasons why they bought the T's). It is interesting to > speculate what might-have-been with Juniata-built A's > and J's... although the post-war economic situation is > what actually killed the steam locomotive, and in the > long run it might not have made any difference. > --- "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > Despite the fact that the Pennsy owned about 1/3 of > > the N&W, I do not > > believe much animosity existed between two roads. > > After all, the > > Pennsy's Js are based on tests the PRR did with the > > C&O's T1s. And, I > > seem to recall a story about the C&O testing one of > > the PRR's T1's on > > the George Washington, being stuck due to wheel > > slippage when trying to > > move the train at grade out of a station. I also > > seem to recall a > > picture in one of the Morning Sun books of a Mt. > > Carmel train using > > borrowed C&O geeps. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] > > On Behalf Of Peter > > Weiglin > > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 12:59 AM > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags > > > > > Significantly absent in this list of foreign coal > > hoppers is C&O! > > > > = = = > > > > I wonder if the absence of C&O cars is a result of > > the animosity (it was > > more than competition) between the Atterbury PRR and > > the Van Sweringen > > C&O?? Of course C&O would want any of its cars back > > from the "enemy" to > > which they strayed as soon as possible. And if > > there were a way to make > > it happen, the PRR traffic folks would try to steer > > customers to N&W > > coal rather than C&O. That thought is based on > > accounts of the rivalry > > in Herb Harwood's excellent book on the "Vans." > > > > In any case, there's a plausible reason for the PRR > > modeler to have no > > C&O hoppers on the railroad. (Well, maybe just > > one...) > > > > Now -- does that also mean that PRR hoppers on the > > C&O were as rare as > > hen's teeth? > > > > Peter Weiglin > > San Mateo, CA (Ohio in June!) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ===== > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] PRR non use of other's designs Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:53:53 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com While the PRR was a great railroad, I sure didn't understand their thinking sometimes. The N&W J was, to me, the most impressive passenger locomotive ever built. The small drivers gave it really high tractive effort while all those roller bearings and superb balance enabled it to top 100 mph easily. I would have thought this would have been ideal for the Pittsburgh Division, especially the mountains above Altoona, along with the racetracks of the Ft. Wayne Division.. As for smaller drivered passenger locomotives, the M-1 (admittedly dual service), and the G-5 only had top speeds of around 70/75 mph, but they sure found service on a lot of the Pennsy in the east where there wasn't much room for that really high speed running. As for rail damage from pounding, I've got to think an I-1 at speed was anything but easy on the track. Just one SPF's opinion. Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" ; "Peter Weiglin" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Coal Drags The J was > impressive, but the PRR was apparently aprehensive of > building a passenger locomotive with smaller (72") > drivers as opposed to their standard 80" passenger > driver. And they were very consious of damage to the > track structure by rod pounding (which is one of the > reasons why they bought the T's). It is interesting to > speculate what might-have-been with Juniata-built A's > and J's... although the post-war economic situation is > what actually killed the steam locomotive, and in the > long run it might not have made any difference. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] PRR airhorns and steam engine whistles Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:01:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Which Soundtraxx sound decoder (airhorn) is appropriate for the GE U 28 C's and the SD 40's and SD 45's. I have searched some of the airhorn web sites after looking in PRR Power II without success in identifying the airhorns. The second generation GE's look to me to have the same airhorns as the SD's. I saw a long bell on the fireman's side, a shorter bell on the engineers side and yet shorter bell facing rearward. Any help would be appreciated. All the best to you and yours, Weldon Greiger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR airhorns and steam engine whistles Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:39:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Weldon, Can't tell you the specific model of them, S3-xxx, but they are definitely Leslie 3-chime horns. Since Soundtraxx only gives you one 2nd generation w/ Leslie 3-chime choice, I guess that is close enough. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: "Weldon" To: ; ; ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:01 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR airhorns and steam engine whistles > > Which Soundtraxx sound decoder (airhorn) is appropriate for the GE U 28 > C's and the SD 40's and SD 45's. > > I have searched some of the airhorn web sites after looking in PRR Power II > without success in identifying the airhorns. The second generation GE's > look to me to have the same airhorns as the SD's. > > I saw a long bell on the fireman's side, a shorter bell on the engineers > side and yet shorter bell facing rearward. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > All the best to you and yours, Weldon Greiger > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <766c3d1414813e153397a63163632040@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-Talk LIST From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] The Eastern Slope in Snow Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:02:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There's something really neat about visiting the eastern slope in the snow. Maybe it's the white background to take photos against. I dunno. Last year my son and I took a day trip to the area and Cresson was hit with over two feet of snow the day before. It was really neat because the park at Cresson had snow piles we could climb on that got us ABOVE the level of the tracks. And trains coming by drew up a wake of snow and provided some really neat shots. This Saturday we have another trip planned. And lo and behold, another snow storm! This year we are specifically going to scout some of the yards for remnants of PRR equipment. There's still some out there! Gonna start in Altoona, around 7 a.m., and hit the yards, the passenger station ped bridge, and ALTO; then hit the brickyard crossing at Coburn; the Horseshoe Curve (park will be closed but the museum has told the list we can go around anyway); Tunnel Hill/Gallitzin; and finally Cresson. Who knows, maybe we'll head a little bit down the western slope. We'll see. With digital camera and scanner in hand... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:48:20 -0500 From: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com Subject: [PRR] Pullman car equipment Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry Britton Subject: Re: [PRR] Pullman car equipment Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:57:32 -0500 To: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:48 AM, lheintz2@rochester.rr.com wrote: > The Pullman car Pine Falls(6DB-Lounge) resides at the Rochester and > Genesee Valley Museum. What kind of condition is it in... is it restored? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] Update on Bowser N Scale GLa Hoppers Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:04:58 -0500 To: PRR-n_scale X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Lee English wrote: > Bowser N Scale GLa Hoppers: > I approved the trucks Monday. > Production=A0started=A0Tuesday. > The bodies are all painted and lettered just waiting for the trucks. > Delivery will be as soon as we can assemble trucks. He added that the earliest possible ship date is about two weeks out. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Tribology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:25:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi List: I made the mistake of buying the Walthers PRR R50B. Worse, I bought a dozen of them. The problem is they don't roll well. I guess this is caused by excess friction (Perhaps I should have consulted the resident Tribologist). I hate to use lubricants because they always work their way to the rails. Other than lubrication, does anyone have another fix for this problem? Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Congo Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:38:18 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am pretty sure I know the answer to this but I must be having brain cramps. I keep seeing baggage cars painted for the Congo advertised and don't recall any included or listed in the Budd order for the Congo or Senator. Never have seen a picture either. No baggage cars right? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tribology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:44:28 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Carl, I'm a bit surprised to hear this as I have several of these cars and = don't recall a similar problem. My first recommendation would be to use = the Reboxx Exxact Socket hand tool on the trucks. See: = http://www.reboxx.com/Tools.htm I find this to be an indispensable tool when tuning trucks. A more = serious step would be to replace the supplied Walthers wheelsets with = Reboxx wheelsets as they can be purchased in the exact axle length = required to prevent any binding in the side frames. I use them = religiously for their rolling qualities and visual appearance. I don't = have the Reboxx part number to properly fit the Walthers R50b handy at = the moment, but I would be more than happy to check at home this = evening. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Carl Izzo=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:25 AM Subject: [PRR] Tribology Hi List: I made the mistake of buying the Walthers PRR R50B. Worse, I bought a = dozen=20 of them. The problem is they don't roll well. I guess this is caused by excess friction (Perhaps I should have = consulted=20 the resident Tribologist). I hate to use lubricants because they always work their way to the = rails.=20 Other than lubrication, does anyone have another fix for this problem? Carl P. Izzo=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Don Harper Subject: Re: [PRR] Tribology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:51:30 -0600 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Feb 2005 16:57:09.0373 (UTC) FILETIME=[E0C84AD0:01C51A91] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Carl Thanks for adding a new word to my vocabulary. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu On Feb 24, 2005, at 10:25 AM, Carl Izzo wrote: Hi List: I made the mistake of buying the Walthers PRR R50B. Worse, I bought a dozen of them. The problem is they don't roll well. I guess this is caused by excess friction (Perhaps I should have consulted the resident Tribologist). I hate to use lubricants because they always work their way to the rails. Other than lubrication, does anyone have another fix for this problem? Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:54:06 -0500 From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tribology Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Carl, Take the axles and put them in a Dremel tool, then with the axle spinning stick it into a "Brite Boy" track cleaning pad. This removes the burr that is usually on the end of the axle and make a huge difference in rolling performance. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Congo Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:58:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-reply-to: <022420051638.18298.421E02F90005C2DC0000477A21603763169D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUakGC0BU5F9K0pS7ia8OPax+pIiQAAZZSQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Right. The PRR never had any streamlined baggage cars - fluted or otherwise. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:38 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Congo I am pretty sure I know the answer to this but I must be having brain cramps. I keep seeing baggage cars painted for the Congo advertised and don't recall any included or listed in the Budd order for the Congo or Senator. Never have seen a picture either. No baggage cars right? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk From: Jerry Britton Subject: Re: [PRR] Tribology Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:59:01 -0500 To: Don Harper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 24, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Don Harper wrote: > > Thanks for adding a new word to my vocabulary. Tribology: The science of the mechanisms of friction, lubrication, and wear of interacting surfaces that are in relative motion. And we thought he only did paint! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" , From: Jerry Britton Subject: Re: [PRR] Congo Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:11:10 -0500 To: "Andy Miller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 24, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > Right. The PRR never had any streamlined baggage cars - fluted or > otherwise. Hmmm, I wonder if we should head off the question about vista domes? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Photo Available? Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:17:28 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Volume 23 #1 of the Keystone has a Chuck Blardone picture of an Abbotts = Dairy milk reefer being unloaded under the High Line. =20 Unfortunately, the truck is hiding any lettering that might be on the = right hand side of the car. Chuck has advised me he has no other = pictures of this scene. Does anyone know of a full picture of an = Abbotts milk reefer in this late paint scheme? I am sure the reporting = marks are also on the lower right hand corner of the car - but is there = any lettering behind the tank truck? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:31:57 GMT Subject: [PRR] Vented Box/Express cars From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo Available? Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:11:54 -0600 To: prr-talk talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 24, 2005, at 1:17 PM, Park Varieties wrote: > Volume 23 #1 of the Keystone has a Chuck Blardone picture of an > Abbotts Dairy milk reefer being unloaded under the High Line. > > Unfortunately, the truck is hiding any lettering that might be on the > right hand side of the car. Chuck has advised me he has no other > pictures of this scene. Does anyone know of a full picture of an > Abbotts milk reefer in this late paint scheme? I am sure the > reporting marks are also on the lower right hand corner of the car - > but is there any lettering behind the tank truck? Thanks. > > Frank Brua Frank, You might want to look into one of the two books on milk cars by Bob Liljestrand and John Nehrich, or see if Bob has any relevant photos. The books were titled Railway Milk Cars, Vol. 1 & 2, and AFAIK are only available directly from Bob's Photos, 37 Spring Street, Ansonia, CT 06401, 203 734-6666. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Vented Box/Express cars Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:12 +0000 From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Vented Box/Express cars Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:16:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dominic, In my railroad career, I was actually asked "How hot does it get inside a boxcar?" My shipper was shipping rosin flakes, which melt at 140 degrees Fahrenheit. I did not know, so called CSX's Damage Prevention Manager, who didn't know either, so he called the AAR Test Facility at Pueblo, CO. During Texas (or Florida) summers it exceeds 160 F in a boxcar, according to the AAR. Since no one wanted cooked cantaloupes or watermelons, it was necessary to ship such commodities in ventilated cars, even if not requiring refrigeration. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Mazoch" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:31 PM Subject: [PRR] Vented Box/Express cars > > Why have a vented box/express car. To move oranges, I suppose. Would the > temps be cool enough to move them? (Remember, I do live in Texas.) > > > Dominic Mazoch > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. > Now includes pop-up blocker! > Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:22:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Congratulations, Listmeister! X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & folks, I picked up Model Railroad Planning-2005 the other night, and amoung other interesting articles is one by Jerry Britton. Nice article, listmiester! Having a full-scale sized track plan direct from the prototype surely eliminates a lot of guess work when laying out trackage. (Certainly works better than memory, which is what I'm essentially working from, with a few photos). Once again, congratualtions. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "phil@recruitalliance.com" Subject: [PRR] MP54 & P54 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:23:35 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, This is my first post, so please be gentle. Is the MP54 series of cars derived from steam hauled coaches and = would they have been the P54? Or was the MP54 developed solely on its = own whether it be mounted with traction motors or simply as a trailer. = I've have checked several reference books , but they seem to have = conflicting information. Any guidance would be appreciated. Thanks, Trip ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jean Gagne" Subject: [PRR] Thurlow Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:49:19 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, Can anyone tell me where Thurlow is or was located ? There were a few = Freight trains that originated or terminated at Thurlow. Examples are : = TH-1, TH-3 Was it a yard or a town ? Thanks ! Johnny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Congratulations, Listmeister! Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:30:36 -0500 To: BPX29@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 24, 2005, at 5:22 PM, BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Jerry & folks, > I picked up Model Railroad Planning-2005 the other night, and amoung > other > interesting articles is one by Jerry Britton. Nice article, > listmiester! Having > a full-scale sized track plan direct from the prototype surely > eliminates a > lot of guess work when laying out trackage. (Certainly works better > than memory, > which is what I'm essentially working from, with a few photos). > Once again, congratualtions. > Barry Peltier Thanks, Barry. I didn't actually set out to write an article. I was having a regular phone conversation with Tony Koester about 18 months ago and we were discussing the final planning for MRP 2004. He mentioned the article on the guy who switched from HO to O and was interested in my reasoning for switching from HO to N. The answer was in the val maps and he became quite interested in my methodology and asked me to write the article. I've since been asked to do another for MRP 2007. It'll be another methodology article; not so much on the layout itself. My layout articles are more like to land in Kirk Reddie's "N Scale Railroading" magazine. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:39:31 -0500 From: "Joseph Witcofsky" Subject: RE: [PRR] Thurlow From: "Kris's mail" Subject: [PRR] PRR in Wilkes Barre area Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:46:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Found this web site that deals primarily with the CNJ but has a lot of interesting information and photos of the PRR in the Wilkes Barre, Pa area. Use it as a launching point since this web site has a tremendous amount of information on the CNJ as well as the anthracite coal hauling railroads of the Northeast. There are shots of the freight house and icing facilities in WB plus numerous shots of second generation diesels. I remember a few listers asking questions about the PRR's Buttonwood yard. There is quite a bit of good info on that area at the following site. It has some cool photos of out of the ordinary equipment such as a PRR crew bus, a farm type tractor stenciled Pennsylvania, and a solid rubber tire "thing" which was supposedly used for servicing locomotives. http://www.gingerb.com/cnj_hudson to_wilkes-barre.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:21:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR in Wilkes Barre area X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone know how to contact A. W. Kovacs who shot many of the pics on this page? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:15:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 & P54 From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Trip asks: > Is the MP54 series of cars derived from steam hauled coaches and would > they have been the P54? Or was the MP54 developed solely on its own whether it be mounted with traction motors or simply as a trailer. I've have checked several reference books , but they seem to have > conflicting information. Trip, Welcome to the list! The unpowered class of cars is correctly known as MP54. These cars were designed and built with the MU conversion in mind, even if some of them weren't converted. When they were converted to MU service a suffix was added to indicate electric service. See for example the tracing at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=mp54.gif which shows "Steam Passenger Cars Class MP54" and "Electric Passenger Cars Class MP54E2" Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:43:04 -0500 From: RamblingReck Subject: Re: [PRR] Thurlow Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Where was this in relation to trainer? This sounded like Trainer to me. John Ryan Joseph Witcofsky wrote: >Johnny: > >....." Can anyone tell me where Thurlow is or was located? There were a >few Freight trains that originated or terminated at Thurlow. Examples >are: TH-1, TH-3. Was it a yard or a town? > >Thurlow Yard was located on the Chesapeake Division at Chester, PA. It >was located between MP 15.6 (Highland Ave.) and MP 16.8 (Hook). ML >Phila-Wash. > >It consisted of two main yards, the North yard which contained 9 tracks, >and the South Yard which consisted of 15 tracks. The two yards straddled >the 4 main tracks. Two tracks were wired their entire length while other >tracks had lead in wire. > >When I hired there in 1967, there were 8 crews in the Thurlow - Enola >Pool operating Westward and Eastward trains TH-1, TH-3, Th-4 and CE-4, >as well as Eddystone (PE) Coal trains and Westbound hopper trains. Other >road assignments such as TP-1 and TP-2, MD-16 and MD-7, and BP-5 picked >up or set out traffic from North and South. > >Local freights operated between Thurlow and Edgemoor, (MD133-MD134), >Thurlow and Grays Ferry (PT33-PT34); and Thurlow and Colora (Octororo >Secondary),Thurlow and West Chester (West Chester Branch) both accessed >via Lamokin and the Chester Creek Secondary track. > >There were 18 yard crews employed at Thurlow and Satellite yards (Stoney >Creek and Eddystone) during a 24 hour period in 1967. That number >gradually declined to about 7 in 1976. > >The yard was closed on April 1, 1976 and the tracks subsequently >removed. >All operations were consolidated at a reconfigured Stoney Creek Yard, >which still operates as part of the Conrail Shared Asset area. > > >Joe > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Peters" Subject: Re: [PRR] Thurlow Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:51:15 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Local passenger station in middle of yard............boomer ----- Original Message ----- From: "RamblingReck" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Thurlow > Where was this in relation to trainer? This sounded like Trainer to me. > > John Ryan > > > Joseph Witcofsky wrote: > >>Johnny: >> >>....." Can anyone tell me where Thurlow is or was located? There were a >>few Freight trains that originated or terminated at Thurlow. Examples >>are: TH-1, TH-3. Was it a yard or a town? >> >>Thurlow Yard was located on the Chesapeake Division at Chester, PA. It >>was located between MP 15.6 (Highland Ave.) and MP 16.8 (Hook). ML >>Phila-Wash. >> >>It consisted of two main yards, the North yard which contained 9 tracks, >>and the South Yard which consisted of 15 tracks. The two yards straddled >>the 4 main tracks. Two tracks were wired their entire length while other >>tracks had lead in wire. >> >>When I hired there in 1967, there were 8 crews in the Thurlow - Enola >>Pool operating Westward and Eastward trains TH-1, TH-3, Th-4 and CE-4, >>as well as Eddystone (PE) Coal trains and Westbound hopper trains. Other >>road assignments such as TP-1 and TP-2, MD-16 and MD-7, and BP-5 picked >>up or set out traffic from North and South. >> >>Local freights operated between Thurlow and Edgemoor, (MD133-MD134), >>Thurlow and Grays Ferry (PT33-PT34); and Thurlow and Colora (Octororo >>Secondary),Thurlow and West Chester (West Chester Branch) both accessed >>via Lamokin and the Chester Creek Secondary track. >> >>There were 18 yard crews employed at Thurlow and Satellite yards (Stoney >>Creek and Eddystone) during a 24 hour period in 1967. That number >>gradually declined to about 7 in 1976. >> >>The yard was closed on April 1, 1976 and the tracks subsequently >>removed. >>All operations were consolidated at a reconfigured Stoney Creek Yard, >>which still operates as part of the Conrail Shared Asset area. >> >> >>Joe >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <97e8f0ece3b6885c07556f8bb8101a20@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-Talk LIST From: Jerry Britton Subject: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:11:04 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Need some help on freight truck identification, which is not my forte... N scalers were asking what kind of trucks will be on the new Bowser N scale GLa's. Lee English's response was "it is the same truck we are using on the HO sorry do not remember the specs". Hmmm. Don't remember the specs. Well! How 'bout you HO modelers chiming in and telling us what's on your GLa's??? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:39:14 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:43:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-reply-to: <97e8f0ece3b6885c07556f8bb8101a20@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUbRCc9yLLEpIcjRvCBjlYDAaTqsQABD7ow Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 2D-F8 regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:11 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? Need some help on freight truck identification, which is not my forte... N scalers were asking what kind of trucks will be on the new Bowser N scale GLa's. Lee English's response was "it is the same truck we are using on the HO sorry do not remember the specs". Hmmm. Don't remember the specs. Well! How 'bout you HO modelers chiming in and telling us what's on your GLa's??? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SD45Bob@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:25:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Tribology Now R50b wheels X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi List: I made the mistake of buying the Walthers PRR R50B. Worse, I bought a dozen of them. The problem is they don't roll well. I guess this is caused by excess friction (Perhaps I should have consulted the resident Tribologist). I hate to use lubricants because they always work their way to the rails. Other than lubrication, does anyone have another fix for this problem? Carl P. Izzo The first thing you want to do is to check to make sure the trucks are square. Walthers is using a three piece truck that is held together by a screw and if they were not assembled correctly or they were bumped hard they could be spread on one end and tight on the other. If you want to change out the wheels then I would suggest Reboxx wheelsets. You can get whatever length axle you need to fit the R50B. Go to the following website for ordering and sizing info. They cost about $10.00 for 3 cars worth of wheels and axles but they are worth the money. _http://www.reboxx.com/_ (http://www.reboxx.com/) Bob Meier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics update - the X30 and G41 may not be dead yet From: Bruce Smith Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:51:33 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, A little update on the Rail Classics site. It now says "UPDATE - the GM&O Transfer Caboose, PRR- PC X30 and G41/G41a=A0 = projects=20 will be imported and sold direct to you by CROWN CUSTOM PROJECTS,=20 1-631-692-8805. Call them for additional information." Good news for Ben Hom and I since we were pining for the X30 . If=20= you are not aware, Crown Custom Projects is the company that is the=20 successor of Railworks, so in a way, this is a homecoming. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:23:45 -0500 From: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com Subject: [PRR] Fwd: RE: Pullman Car Equipment From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Sodus Point Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:26:00 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have a question regarding Sodus Point. My understanding is the coal went to a power plant on the US side of Lake Ontario and I believe to the west. If that is so why didn't the PRR just build a branch directly to the power plant? If it was in Canada the shipping makes sense. Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:30:57 -0500 From: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com Subject: [PRR] Monongahela interlocking tower Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:52:38 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Sodus Point Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu, prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] MP54 & P54 Reply-To: schlund@cwnet.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:54:23 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: AtMail Corp 3.61 - http://webbasedemail.com/ X-Origin: 69.85.146.59 Message-ID: <1102768415-50960130@dsop.com> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bruce, Trip, and list members, I believe this is not entirely correct, and that the reality is a bit more complicated. Here we have it from the PRR's own documents - my copy of "Classification of Cars" form 146-G dated Feb 1, 1938 has the following statement on the first page. Passenger cars arranged for equipment with electrical motors are designated by a small letter "m" placed before the primary letter or letters, and cars equipped with motors a large "M" is used, viz: mP54, MP54d - Claus > Trip asks: > > Is the MP54 series of cars derived from steam hauled coaches and > > would > > they have been the P54? Or was the MP54 developed solely on its own > whether it be mounted with traction motors or simply as a trailer. I've > have checked several reference books , but they seem to have > > conflicting information. > > Trip, > Welcome to the list! The unpowered class of cars is correctly known as > MP54. These cars were designed and built with the MU conversion in > mind, even if some of them weren't converted. When they were converted > to MU service a suffix was added to indicate electric service. See for > example the tracing at: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=mp54.gif which > shows "Steam Passenger Cars Class MP54" and "Electric Passenger Cars > Class MP54E2" > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL ---- Msg sent via CWNet - http://www.cwnet.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 & P54 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:34:08 -0600 To: schlund@cwnet.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Feb 25, 2005, at 9:54 AM, wrote: > > Hi Bruce, Trip, and list members, > > I believe this is not entirely correct, and that the reality > is a bit more complicated. > > Here we have it from the PRR's own documents - my copy of > "Classification of Cars" form 146-G dated Feb 1, 1938 > has the following statement on the first page. > > Passenger cars arranged for equipment with electrical motors > are designated by a small letter "m" placed before the primary > letter or letters, and cars equipped with motors a large "M" is used, > viz: mP54, MP54d > > - Claus Claus, I've seen that ;^) but I didn't mention it because the PRR itself didn't bother to actually make that distinction in most of its own documents. Thus, it is not valid to assume that a car classed as "MP" has electric propulsion based on the upper case "M". Far more critical is that the "M" (or "m") is required for all classes , and that all cars receiving electric propulsion equipment or controls received a suffix. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 & P54 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:58:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1102768415-50960130@dsop.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.3.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.2.25.8 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, The PRR doesn't seem to have been too consistent with the case of the initial m/M. Note that in the 1913 version of "Classification of Cars" is says "Passenger cars, which are equipped with electric motors, or arranged to be equipped, are designated by letter M before the regular classification letter or letters." No lower case option given. And most of the equipment diagrams on my site also seem to ignore the lower case convention all together... For anyone interested, a copy of Claus' copy of 146-G is online at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/pdf/Circulars/146-G_300mono.pdf and versions B, D, E and F are online at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents Also does anyone have a copy of 146 with no rev letter or 146-A or 146-C that I can borrow or get a copy of to scan to add to the collection on my site? Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of schlund@cwnet.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:54 AM To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] MP54 & P54 Hi Bruce, Trip, and list members, I believe this is not entirely correct, and that the reality is a bit more complicated. Here we have it from the PRR's own documents - my copy of "Classification of Cars" form 146-G dated Feb 1, 1938 has the following statement on the first page. Passenger cars arranged for equipment with electrical motors are designated by a small letter "m" placed before the primary letter or letters, and cars equipped with motors a large "M" is used, viz: mP54, MP54d - Claus > Trip asks: > > Is the MP54 series of cars derived from steam hauled coaches and > > would > > they have been the P54? Or was the MP54 developed solely on its own > whether it be mounted with traction motors or simply as a trailer. I've > have checked several reference books , but they seem to have > > conflicting information. > > Trip, > Welcome to the list! The unpowered class of cars is correctly known as > MP54. These cars were designed and built with the MU conversion in > mind, even if some of them weren't converted. When they were converted > to MU service a suffix was added to indicate electric service. See for > example the tracing at: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=mp54.gif which > shows "Steam Passenger Cars Class MP54" and "Electric Passenger Cars > Class MP54E2" > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL ---- Msg sent via CWNet - http://www.cwnet.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Sodus Point Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:07:31 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Sodus Point Thread-Index: AcUbXWf4kQfqNVFhR5CLUmxCclzmNwAF75PQ From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Bill Daniels" , , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Feb 2005 20:07:31.0477 (UTC) FILETIME=[A34CCC50:01C51B75] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Understand the favorable rates may have been dictated by the government to "preserve competition". There were massive coal docks at Toledo, Ohio, served by the B&O,NYC, and C&O which shipped coal to points near Detroit. And there was plenty of rail infrastructure in and around Toledo and Detroit to make an all rail route feasible. Had there been truly free enterprise perhaps these docks and the one at Sodus Point would have never been built. =20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:53 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Sodus Point Some (not all) of the coal from Sodus Point was shipped to the power plant (which actually was about 25 or so miles away) was shipped by water to take advantage of an extremely favorable shipping rate. There were other customers as well. And building a 25 or so mile long branch line just to service one small industry was extremely costly. If you have a copy of Bill Caloroso's excellent book on the Elmira Branch (which currently is out of print) there is a mention of this practice in it. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I have a question regarding Sodus Point. My understanding is the coal > went to a power plant on the US side of Lake Ontario and I believe to=20 > the west. If that is so why didn't the PRR just build a branch=20 > directly to the power plant? If it was in Canada the shipping makes=20 > sense. Thanks > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 >=20 =09 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?=20 Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Sodus Point Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:28:56 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748D124F7@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Sodus Point Thread-Index: AcUbXWf4kQfqNVFhR5CLUmxCclzmNwAF75PQAACkdUA= From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" , "Bill Daniels" , , "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List: Yours truly was present at Sodus Point the day the last boat departed. Sorry, the weather was too crappy to take any pix. I believe it was in October of 1966. The condition of the boat was such that within a few trips it would have sunk for natural causes. IT WAS BEAT, to say the least. The coal was mined in the Clearfield area and shipped via Renovo and the Elmira Branch. Power plants have their grates set so that all the coal they burn must come from one or two specific mines. If they change mines, they had to change grates because the ash content was different for each mine. You could (I guess you still can) analyze any piece of coal for it's ash content and determine which mine it came from by looking it up in any Mark's Handbook. I would guess that is the reason for the shipping operation. Quite possibly the power plant was converted to natural gas around that time also. Once again, probably more information than you ever needed to know. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 3:08 PM To: Bill Daniels; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Sodus Point Understand the favorable rates may have been dictated by the government to "preserve competition". There were massive coal docks at Toledo, Ohio, served by the B&O,NYC, and C&O which shipped coal to points near Detroit. And there was plenty of rail infrastructure in and around Toledo and Detroit to make an all rail route feasible. Had there been truly free enterprise perhaps these docks and the one at Sodus Point would have never been built. =20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Daniels Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:53 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Sodus Point Some (not all) of the coal from Sodus Point was shipped to the power plant (which actually was about 25 or so miles away) was shipped by water to take advantage of an extremely favorable shipping rate. There were other customers as well. And building a 25 or so mile long branch line just to service one small industry was extremely costly. If you have a copy of Bill Caloroso's excellent book on the Elmira Branch (which currently is out of print) there is a mention of this practice in it. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I have a question regarding Sodus Point. My understanding is the coal > went to a power plant on the US side of Lake Ontario and I believe to=20 > the west. If that is so why didn't the PRR just build a branch=20 > directly to the power plant? If it was in Canada the shipping makes=20 > sense. Thanks > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 >=20 =09 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?=20 Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:32:24 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:39:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Classes MP54, MP54A1, MP54C, and MP54T have neither pans nor poles > and so, I assume, no motors. MP54T was a trailer car for electrified service. It was set up with controls, but no pantograph or motors. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Sodus Point Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:54:43 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748D12512@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Sodus Point Thread-Index: AcUbgDHbB2eOUaNYTVeQUyfQC8N6yAAASP0Q From: "Bill Volkmer" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Again I am going from memory. I don't think I ever bothered to ask where the boat was going. Guess I just assumed it (the destination) was over in Canada. We had a machinist from Elmira (he was about 70 years old in 1966 and was the father of the then Renovo wreckmaster) who spent his summers at Sodus Point tending to the RS-11 that was kept there. When October came, we locked the place up, Mr. Lunger went back to Elmira, and there was a local out of Newark that made a round trip 5 days a week from Newark to Sodus. We had a head-on collision (while I was working at Northumberland) at Orleans on the Sodus Branch, I believe between a coal train and an empty hopper extra. Somewhere I have some pix of it. I think it (the wreck) is covered in Pennsy Diesel Years, but don't remember. I know the 7240 was one of the units and it was fished out of the creek below, repaired at Altoona, and returned to service. I don't believe they ever repaired at least one of the RS11s involved. I do remember it (the Sodus Branch) as being manual block territory and the farmer was standing watching the trains in his field wondering how come he could see smoke coming from two different directions when they only got one track down thar! The local out of Elmira ran round trip to Newark, each day, and I seem to remember an SW-1 being stationed on the Canandagua Branch. There was a catsup factory on that Branch. Possibly HJ Heintz. Don't remember. I think we interchanged cars with the NYC at Geneva and Canandagua, but don't believe we interchanged at Stanley where we crossed the NYC main. Cars received at Geneva and Canandagua did not get inspected until they reached Elmira. I think we may have interchanged with the LV at Geneva also, but I do know we had no car inspector (s) there. We also had a lucrative coal trade out of Clearfield on the NYC which ran through to Geneva leaving the PRR at Himrods. Two or three trains per day and hauled by Alco FAs right up to the bitter end. Every six months the power switched from NYC to PRR and the crews did likewise. NYC had trackage rights from CT (Keating, just west of Renovo) to Williamsport. Since this is being written without so much as a timetable (or map) in my lap, there are probably a few errors, but you get the drift anyway. WDV -----Original Message----- From: CENTGA@aol.com [mailto:CENTGA@aol.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:23 PM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: RE: [PRR] Sodus Point List: Yours truly was present at Sodus Point the day the last boat departed. Sorry, the weather was too crappy to take any pix. I believe it was in October of 1966. The condition of the boat was such that within a few trips it would have sunk for natural causes. IT WAS BEAT, to say the least. The coal was mined in the Clearfield area and shipped via Renovo and the Elmira Branch. Power plants have their grates set so that all the coal they burn must come from one or two specific mines. If they change mines, they had to change grates because the ash content was different for each mine. You could (I guess you still can) analyze any piece of coal for it's ash content and determine which mine it came from by looking it up in any Mark's Handbook. I would guess that is the reason for the shipping operation. Quite possibly the power plant was converted to natural gas around that time also. Once again, probably more information than you ever needed to know. WDV Bill, you really got around on the system didn't you? I was up at Sodus Point a couple years back. Did you ever take any shots from this area? I still never fully understood why coal was only shipped a few miles from there. I thought that I read that the power plant that recieved coal from Sodus was on a Erie or Lackawana line, but I might be wrong. Was the coal pier closing the major reason of the decline of the Elmira Branch? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:59:32 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A748D12515@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes Thread-Index: AcUbgvjXtxnGsuaKTWCrE/y9oPN6/wAAa5WA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , "robert netzlof" Cc: , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com OK. Just to confuse you more........ The MP54E3s were bride and grooms, the E5s were Westinghouse motors (4 of them) and controls and the E6s were GE controls, motors (4) and newer trucks. Both the E5s and E6s had modernized interior lighting etc. plus cam controllers for smoother and quicker acceleration. The E1s and E2s were a hodge podge of whatever they had laying on the shelf. And for you trivia freaks..... The E3s had traction motors with armatures that were interchangeable with the GG-1s. Both were creatures of the mir-1930s. And of course the bridges had no motors atall. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:40 PM To: robert netzlof Cc: schlund@cwnet.com; smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes > Classes MP54, MP54A1, MP54C, and MP54T have neither pans nor poles > and so, I assume, no motors. MP54T was a trailer car for electrified service. It was set up with controls, but no pantograph or motors. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:16:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050225213224.10666.qmail@web31003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.3.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.2.25.14 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The small m in the classifications of cars is a small M not a lower case m but I've seen other PRR docs which user lower case where the classifications of cars use a small caps M. I think the D in MP54D might stand for DC but this is only a guess on my part. I say this because the 146-E has the MP54C introduced in 1915 while the MP54D was introduced three years earlier in 1912 leading me to believe the maybe the D stood for something rather than just being the next letter in the alphabet... Of course there could be another reason for the out of order introduction... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of robert netzlof Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 4:32 PM To: schlund@cwnet.com; smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 & P54, those @#$% suffixes --- schlund@cwnet.com wrote: > > I believe this is not entirely correct, and that the reality > is a bit more complicated. > > Here we have it from the PRR's own documents - my copy of > "Classification of Cars" form 146-G dated Feb 1, 1938 > has the following statement on the first page. > > Passenger cars arranged for equipment with electrical motors > are designated by a small letter "m" placed before the primary > letter or letters, and cars equipped with motors a large "M" is > used, > viz: mP54, MP54d I just visited Rob's diagrams site, and it's even more complex than that. I wonder: are we taking "small m" to mean "lower case m"? Might the classification of cars document mean "an m that is smaller than other letters in the type designator"? That is, not a lower case m, but an M which is small? I looked at all the MP54 diagrams on Rob's site, as well as those for the related MPB54, MBM62, MB62, and MPBM54 classes. The only one I found in which the M and the P were different sizes had the P much _smaller_ than the M. None had a lower case m. Motors vs no motors. There are nine MP54xx classes called out on the several tracings on Rob's site. It appears that: Classes MP54Ex (where x is 1, 2, 3, or 5) have motors and pantagraph. Class MP54D has motors and trolley poles. Classes MP54, MP54A1, MP54C, and MP54T have neither pans nor poles and so, I assume, no motors. There are similar patterns in the related classes. Of those, the MPBM combined passenger/baggage/mail car did not exist in a motorized version. For the others, suffix D indicates trolley poles, suffix E pans, suffix B or C I know not what. Perhaps different floor plans? All suffixes other than D and Ex have neither pans nor poles and so, I assume, no motors. I did notice on the tracings that some of the classes indexed as MP54Ex have MP54BEx on the tracing, suggesting that they are electrified MP54B's, rather than MP54's. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <94668aa87be594d7fb0da4471a90f0d7@dsop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listmaster Test Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:06:41 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net I am moving the listserv server to the new server and need to test. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:08:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Trucks are Bowser part #74277 which they describe as 70 ton AAR trucks. Can't help as to what specific Pennsy truck class they might represent. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? > Need some help on freight truck identification, which is not my forte... > > N scalers were asking what kind of trucks will be on the new Bowser N > scale GLa's. Lee English's response was "it is the same truck we are using > on the HO sorry do not remember the specs". > > Hmmm. Don't remember the specs. > > Well! How 'bout you HO modelers chiming in and telling us what's on your > GLa's??? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Monongahela interlocking tower Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:33:53 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Lynn, The PRR tower in Monongahela, PA was "MC", named after the original town name "Monongahela City". Interestingly, under Conrail it was renamed "'CITY" for the same reason. I believe I have the same postcard, it is not that uncommon, and your pre-1900 date is too early. Mine is postmarked 1916, but more telling is that it is a "split back" card, i.e., one that has the left side divided off for correspondence and the right side for the address. Prior to this, no correspondence was permitted on the back and there was no split line. Occasionally you come across cards printed before the cut-over date but with the split. They have the notation on them that "This space may be used for correspondence after March 1, 1907". So it is most likely a 1907 or later card. MC controlled the junction of the Ellsworth Branch with the main line of the Monongahela Division. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:30 AM Subject: [PRR] Monongahela interlocking tower > I have a photo postcard of the Monongahela int. tower > before 1900. The call sign appears to be damaged or > obscured by a wire. > Best I can tell it is " MO ". > > Can any one confirm ?? > > What area did it control ?? > > Lynn > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:37:14 -0500 From: lheintz2@rochester.rr.com Subject: [PRR] RE: Sodus Branch Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:58:50 -0500 From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Sodus Branch Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net The greater portion of coal to Sodus Point was destined for Canadian markets. The coal going to the power plant in Oswego was dropped onto a barge.It must have been some rate cut to transship it that short distance. The plant could also receive coal from the NYC or DL&W. This was always the confusing part, the plant had direct rail access but would load coal into a barge for a short trip on the lake. Can anyone explain how this was beneficial? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Sodus Branch Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:40:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Todd, It's quite simple, the delivered cost was less using the PRR to Sodus Point and barge beyond than an all rail movement via PRR-NYC or PRR-DL&W. The NYC and DL&W would want as much money to haul coal from the nearest PRR connection as from mines on their own lines. For some valid economic reason (purity, volatility, price, etc.), the plant used coal from a mine on PRR and rail-barge was the cheapest way to get it there. For sixteen years, I handled 3 million tons of coal annualy from a mine on CSX to a power plant on CSX that moved 75 miles by rail to the Ohio River, thence barge to Port Saint Joe, FL, where we got it and hauled it 96 miles to Chattahoochee to give back to CSX. The barge line and the AN guaranteed to annually increase rates no more than the CPI-U, which CSX would not. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Sodus Branch > The greater portion of coal to Sodus Point was destined for Canadian > markets. > The coal going to the power plant in Oswego was dropped onto a barge.It > must have been some rate cut to transship it that short distance. The > plant could also receive coal > from the NYC or DL&W. > > This was always the confusing part, the plant had direct rail access but > would load coal into a barge for a short trip on the lake. Can anyone > explain how this was beneficial? Todd Horton > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:44:48 -0500 From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Sodus Branch Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net It's quite simple, the delivered cost was less using the PRR to Sodus Point and barge beyond than an all rail movement via PRR-NYC or PRR-DL&W. The NYC and DL&W would want as much money to haul coal from the nearest PRR connection as from mines on their own lines. For some valid economic reason (purity, volatility, price, etc.), the plant used coal from a mine on PRR and rail-barge was the cheapest way to get it there. Now it all makes since, I didn't think about the coal originating on the PRR line for some reason. Thanks Gregg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:47:24 -0500 From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Sodus Branch Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net For sixteen years, I handled 3 million tons of coal annualy from a mine on CSX to a power plant on CSX that moved 75 miles by rail to the Ohio River, thence barge to Port Saint Joe, FL, where we got it and hauled it 96 miles to Chattahoochee to give back to CSX. The barge line and the AN guaranteed to annually increase rates no more than the CPI-U, which CSX would not. Gregg Mahlkov This defiantly doesn't follow the saying "work smarter not harder" but I guess in the end it's all about the money. Todd ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trucks on Bowser HO GLa Hoppers? Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:06:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <001101c51b97$4caec160$0d4756d8@FBRUA> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Frank Brua wrote: "Trucks are Bowser part #74277 which they describe as 70 ton AAR trucks. Can't help as to what specific Pennsy truck class they might represent." Bowser's description is incorrect. It probably stems from the fact that the first kit that included these trucks was the AC&F two bay covered hopper, for which these trucks are not appropriate. Fortunately, these trucks are accurate for the common late 2D-F8 50-ton trucks used for many classes of PRR freight cars. In fact, if you have the Bowser covered hoppers and Walthers/Train-Miniature Class X29 boxcars, just swap the trucks. The Walthers/Train-Miniature "Bettendorf" truck is a good 70-ton truck stand-in. FWIW, you can order the sideframes without the wheelsets as part #74286. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:00:01 -0800 (PST) From: kenneth broomfield Subject: [PRR] Headlight for sale. From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:19:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Headlight for sale. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Ken, The standard PRR Headlight from the modern electric light era was made by Sunbeam and was a "Golden Glow" type. The lens was 18" and overall diameter was between 20-21". The post war Headlight was a bit smaller but I do not have the measurments for that one. Not sure who manufactured it, possibly the PRR's own shops. They were cast iron. I don't believe it was a Pyle. Did you get any pictures? If I show you a photo of one, could you ID it as the same as you saw?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html PRR N5c #477974 Restoration (ongoing) http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:44:53 -0800 (PST) From: kenneth broomfield Subject: Re: [PRR] Headlight for sale. From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:37:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Edison NJ, population 65000. Edison and GE R&D history... X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net In a message dated 2/25/2005 2:43:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRRSignaling@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 2 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:59:42 -0500 From: "Lin Bongaardt" Subject: Re: Digest Number 440 Bob, I was just saying that because Bill Strassner indicated there was such a town. Maybe there never was one. Lin Bongaardt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Braden" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRRSignaling] Digest Number 440 > > > > *> > *> The big question now is, did the town name change from Stelton to Edison at > *> about the same time? > *> > > My memory of this (which may be faulty) is that there never was a town > named Edison. Rather, it was named in honor of Thomas Edison, whose > laboratory was in nearby Menlo Park. > > Bob Braden Are we talking about the same New Jersey? My Rand McNally shows Edison to be a town not far north of New Brunswick NJ. Obviously, the town would have had a different name before Edison was famous. We've all heard Edison called "the wizard of Menlo Park", and the light bulb was invented there. IIRC, the Menlo Park lab was a two-story frame building that Edison's buddy Henry Ford later moved to Greenfield Village, Dearborn MI and which you can still visit today. Seeking a larger facility for his "inventing staff", Edison moved his laboratory to West Orange NJ, a site now curated by the National Park Service. They display the studio-on-a-turntable used for the first moving pictures. About t he same time, he also had a research facility in Fort Myers, FL (also open to visitors). Edison did a lot of later electrical machinery development somewhere in Manhattan, leading to the DC lighting of a section of downtown. Later, the Edison General Electric company, reborn as manufacturer General Electric, moved R&D efforts to Schenectady NY into buildings vacated by the failure of the McQueen Locomotive Works. I believe this was the site of most of Charles Proteus Steinmetz' seminal work in AC electrical machinery, pointing to practical long-distance railroad elecrification. GE's labs have now been in Schenectady for more than a century. Rick Tipton A closet electromechanical machinery fan. A GE employee for two decades. Currently enjoying "The P5" book from PRRT&HS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:37:15 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Edison NJ, population 65000. Edison and GE R&D history... In a message dated 2/25/2005 2:43:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRRSignaling@yahoogroups.com writes: Message: 2 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:59:42 -0500 From: "Lin Bongaardt" Subject: Re: Digest Number 440 Bob, I was just saying that because Bill Strassner indicated there was such a town. Maybe there never was one. Lin Bongaardt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Braden" To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRRSignaling] Digest Number 440 > > *> > *> The big question now is, did the town name change from Stelton to Edison at > *> about the same time? > *> > > My memory of this (which may be faulty) is that there never was a town > named Edison. Rather, it was named in honor of Thomas Edison, whose > laboratory was in nearby Menlo Park. > > Bob Braden Are we talking about the same New Jersey? My Rand McNally shows Edison to be a town not far north of New Brunswick NJ. Obviously, the town would have had a different name before Edison was famous. We've all heard Edison called "the wizard of Menlo Park", and the light bulb was invented there. IIRC, the Menlo Park lab was a two-story frame building that Edison's buddy Henry Ford later moved to Greenfield Village, Dearborn MI and which you can still visit today. Seeking a larger facility for his "inventing staff", Edison moved his laboratory to West Orange NJ, a site now curated by the National Park Service. They display the studio-on-a-turntable used for the first moving pictures. About t he same time, he also had a research facility in Fort Myers, FL (also open to visitors). Edison did a lot of later electrical machinery development somewhere in Manhattan, leading to the DC lighting of a section of downtown. Later, the Edison General Electric company, reborn as manufacturer General Electric, moved R&D efforts to Schenectady NY into buildings vacated by the failure of the McQueen Locomotive Works. I believe this was the site of most of Charles Proteus Steinmetz' seminal work in AC electrical machinery, pointing to practical long-distance railroad elecrification. GE's labs have now been in Schenectady for more than a century. Rick Tipton A closet electromechanical machinery fan. A GE employee for two decades. Currently enjoying "The P5" book from PRRT&HS. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Rcy2bD/UOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:52:38 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Headlight for sale. From: "Weldon" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:01:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Parlor car Trimount Group: There is a photograph of the PRR Parlor car Trimount on the cover of Wayner's, " Passenger Train Consists 1923--1973", without photographer credit. This same photo appeared on page XIV of Wayner's, The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars". There the photo is credited to Jack Emerick without any location information. 1. Anyone know how to contact Mr. Emerick? 2. What was the location? and when? 3. It appears to me that the train is at a station stop. Where are the end marker lights? At some point did the PRR not use end markers? 4. I need a floor plan and a photograph or plan of the window arrangements. 5. I would like to see photos of any of these cars in each service, PRR and CB&Q. BTW, The Trimount (nee CB&Q Burlington Bridge) was one of four Parlor, buffet, sunroom obs., acquired from the CB&Q plan 3964. The others were the Honor Legion, (Burlington House), State Legion, (Burlington Light) and the Loyal Legion (Burlington Route). I think I know how to post a photo to the "Photos section", I'll try upon request. All the best to you and yours, Weldon Greiger ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:18:55 -0600 Subject: [PRR] HO scale passenger car couplers From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] U-25B Question Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:01:38 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Does anyone know off hand which PRR order of U-25B that the 2-window = front window as introduced? I know that the very first order or orders = the Pennsy had the large single window. Thanks in advance! Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:38:02 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] PRR Parlor car Trimount Re: Anyone know how to contact Mr. Emerick? I believe Jack is in Florida at the present time. I'll check with him when he returns. Al Buchan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] PRR Parlor car Trimount Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:38:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <003001c51ced$fdbb8900$6701a8c0@BigTop> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Re: Anyone know how to contact Mr. Emerick? I believe Jack is in Florida at the present time. I'll check with him when he returns. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] PRR Parlor car Trimount Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:01:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Group: There is a photograph of the PRR Parlor car Trimount on the cover of Wayner's, " Passenger Train Consists 1923--1973", without photographer credit. This same photo appeared on page XIV of Wayner's, The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars". There the photo is credited to Jack Emerick without any location information. 1. Anyone know how to contact Mr. Emerick? 2. What was the location? and when? 3. It appears to me that the train is at a station stop. Where are the end marker lights? At some point did the PRR not use end markers? 4. I need a floor plan and a photograph or plan of the window arrangements. 5. I would like to see photos of any of these cars in each service, PRR and CB&Q. BTW, The Trimount (nee CB&Q Burlington Bridge) was one of four Parlor, buffet, sunroom obs., acquired from the CB&Q plan 3964. The others were the Honor Legion, (Burlington House), State Legion, (Burlington Light) and the Loyal Legion (Burlington Route). I think I know how to post a photo to the "Photos section", I'll try upon request. All the best to you and yours, Weldon Greiger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:28:43 -0600 Subject: [PRR] HO pass. car couplers- one solution From: Frederick Ripley From: "Wayne Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] U-25B Question Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:10:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcUc+9jStbambTzzRfOo8Bp/ROnKdwAESikQ Message-id: <20050227161111.84b70c50ca7d42a39e388eed30041b2c.in@mycyberlink.net> X-SLUIDL: ACA40EB7-303440FE-9D49B477-0D81CA04 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net As best that I can tell from available photographic evidence - The order beginning with 2534 to 2548 (2634 to 2648)delivered in 1965 are the first to receive the dual windows. 2500 to 2533 (later 2600 to 2633) had the large single pain - 2534 to 2548 (later 2634 to 2648) and 2649 to 2658 look to have the dual windows. Check out 2632 http://knorek.com/RR/Found/Bunting/PRR2632.htm See PPII for a picture of 2548. Cos -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:02 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] U-25B Question Does anyone know off hand which PRR order of U-25B that the 2-window front window as introduced? I know that the very first order or orders the Pennsy had the large single window. Thanks in advance! Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:16:08 -0800 (PST) From: kenneth broomfield Subject: Re: [PRR] Headlight for sale. From: "Weldon" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:01:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] [PRR] PRR Parlor car Trimount Group: There is a photograph of the PRR Parlor car Trimount on the cover of Wayner's, " Passenger Train Consists 1923--1973", without photographer credit. This same photo appeared on page XIV of Wayner's, The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars". There the photo is credited to Jack Emerick without any location information. 1. Anyone know how to contact Mr. Emerick? 2. What was the location? and when? 3. It appears to me that the train is at a station stop. Where are the end marker lights? At some point did the PRR not use end markers? 4. I need a floor plan and a photograph or plan of the window arrangements. 5. I would like to see photos of any of these cars in each service, PRR and CB&Q. BTW, The Trimount (nee CB&Q Burlington Bridge) was one of four Parlor, buffet, sunroom obs., acquired from the CB&Q plan 3964. The others were the Honor Legion, (Burlington House), State Legion, (Burlington Light) and the Loyal Legion (Burlington Route). I think I know how to post a photo to the "Photos section", I'll try upon request. All the best to you and yours, Weldon Greiger ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tcy2bD/SOnJAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Parlor car Trimount (Long) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:06:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Lin: Now that I know the name of the photographer, I'm not sure I should upload his photo without his permission, I hope to contact him soon. In the meantime, I would like to describe the photo. It is a daytime 3/4 shot from the engineers side rear. The rear view clearly shows an end marker bracket on each corner post. Just below the bracket is obviously a socket which supplied power to the end marker. THERE WAS NO built in red light that I can see. The scene is a station stop, two tracks separated by the standard PRR fence used in station areas. Across on the other platform is a partial shot of a spoked wheeled baggage wagon. On that side of the station is an overhead shelter, partly visible. The platform on the train side seems quite wide, estimated at about 15 feet without a shelter overhead. The Trimount is lettered PENNSYLVANIA with smaller end lettering, "PARLOR". There is one stripe above the windows and two below the windows. The car in front of the Trimount looks like a coach. I can barely see a portion of a trainman or conductor to the far right of the photo. There is a diaphragm on the rear as well. The car is clearly in service. The weather seems somewhat cool as you can see steam leaking from the rear steam pipe. From the shadows, I'd guess the train is headed in a northerly direction. Maybe, loosely midday. Again, I'd guess not early in the morning and not in the late afternoon as the sun seems high in the sky and the sun is behind the photographer. Until I can contact the photographer which may be sometime, any help with the marker question would be very much appreciated. Also where was the photo taken and on what train was the Trimount assigned this day? All the best to you and yours, Weldon Greiger > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lin Bongaardt" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 5:08 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Parlor car Trimount > > >> Weldon, >> >> The PRR used some of marker to denote the rear end of a train from at >> least >> 1857 until 1968. >> >> Without seeing the photo, I cannot tell what the situation was with this >> car >> but would suggest that the car had built-in markers (a la the red MU >> cars); >> these markers would have been lighted at all times when the car is at the >> end of the train. >> >> Lin Bongaardt >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO pass. car couplers- one solution Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:11:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUdA+clWF0GkxkfS8qQrhDFjvOWkwAtG0Hg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net I suggest that you use either the Kadee coupler height gauge or the NMRA gauge to measure your coupler height. Measure all your cars against the standard rather than against each other. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 2:29 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] HO pass. car couplers- one solution Hello again, Since posting my coupler question, I took apart a Walthers coupler, and did the same thing I described about the Intermountain P85BR's: replaced it with a kadee offset head coupler (short shank; the P85BR's take medium shank). And, very happily, that seems to have solved the problem- the coupling seems good between that end of a Walthers car and a Rivarossi car with a McHenry coupler. Maybe someone has a better solution, but I thought I would pass this along for anyone with a similar problem. Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Sunnyside Yard Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:52:45 -0500 From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Savannah Prototype Modeelrs Meet April 8 and 9 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:12:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Lists, Anyone have any more information on this meet other than what is in this month's "Model Railroader" (the April issue)? Curoius to know who is giving clinics and who will attend. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:17:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Savannah Prototype Modeelrs Meet April 8 and 9 X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net In a message dated 2/28/2005 9:14:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: Lists, Anyone have any more information on this meet other than what is in this month's "Model Railroader" (the April issue)? Curoius to know who is giving clinics and who will attend. Gregg Mahlkov Gregg, this is put on by Bob Harpe and Jim Six. I can find out a schedule of clincs and post them here as long as Jerry doesn't mind (It's off topic for PRR) Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:19:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO pass. car couplers- one solution X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net If you use all the standards, Weight, Height ,and Wheel gauging there should be no problems. These all work together. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Check out MTH Electric Trains Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:20:42 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net List--A new O scale I1. Can HO be far behind? MTH Electric Trains Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Check out MTH Electric Trains Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:55:48 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: eclipse.net Ooops, sorry. That was supposed to be a link. Try http://www.mth-railking.com/newsdetail.asp?artid=153 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" To: "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 10:20 PM Subject: [PRR] Check out MTH Electric Trains List--A new O scale I1. Can HO be far behind? MTH Electric Trains Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Car Works PRR Parlor Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:23:02 -0500 From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Car Works PRR heavyweight Parlor car Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:53:49 -0500