Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:45:30 -0500 From: Rod Schaffter Subject: [PRR] Re: quartering , My final post on the subject (Bill's too) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill Box speaketh thus... > The issue is NOT that the components are made of infinitely strong and stiff > materials. The first, most elementary mechanical engineering courses make > this this very assumption. It is these elementary techniques that I have > used to analyze this problem. I looked at the system of a pair of drivers and crank as a simple 4 bar linkage. Doing a "Thought Experiment", it seemed to me that there would be no problem with the 90-180 degree positions, just based on everyday experience. To model it, I used a Java based simulator availible online at: http://www.cden-rcci.mcmaster.ca/VisLinkage/ I set it up with lenghts of 50 for the cranks and 105 for the axle diastance and the spanning arm. Unfortunately is is set up as a crank-rocker simulator, but that revealed something that I had not considered-that that at the 3:00 and 9:0O positions, the driven crank can go either direction if it is starting from rest. Considering a axle gear driven locomotive, having the opposite crank at any other angle than zero or 180 degrees would keep all of the wheels going the same direction, preventing a lockup at startup. We might look at whether Hieslers had their drivers quartered, but since they have two powered trucks, it might not be relevant, because it would be very unlikely that both trucks would be at zero or 180 degrees at the same time. Besides, the PRR didn't have any, so that would probably be outside the scope of this group. ;) Cheers, Rod Schaffter -- "1918's now just another year we won the World Series." -- Red Sox GM Theo Epstein. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:34:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9C545FF0-2D0E-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone know whatever came of Oregon Rail Supply? Their product has dried up in the wholesale channel and their plastic PRR Lines West signal bridge was never shipped... as far as I know. I've also confirmed that their web site ( http://www.oregonrail.com/ ) is down. The domain registration is still good. The domain's DNS server still responds, but no record for a web server. Anyone hear anything? Out of business? Sold? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:44:29 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:45:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <9C545FF0-2D0E-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: <22C00242-2D10-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 03:34 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Anyone know whatever came of Oregon Rail Supply? > > Their product has dried up in the wholesale channel and their plastic > PRR Lines West signal bridge was never shipped... as far as I know. > I've also confirmed that their web site ( http://www.oregonrail.com/ ) > is down. The domain registration is still good. The domain's DNS > server still responds, but no record for a web server. > > Anyone hear anything? Out of business? Sold? Sometimes you just gotta ask the masses to get things to happen... the web site is up and the DNS now has an appropriate host record. Timing is impeccable! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:50:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 03:44 PM, Randy Williamson wrote: > At 02:34 PM 11/2/2004, Jerry Britton wrote: > > Anyone know whatever came of Oregon Rail Supply? > > > I talked to the owner recently about the Lines West Signal bridges and > he told me that they will be shipped this month. The web site (back up) says January 2005, due to unanticipated delays. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:53:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <9C545FF0-2D0E-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: Jerry sez - "I've also confirmed that their [Oregon Rail Supply] web site ( http://www.oregonrail.com/ ) is down." The website works for me! And I called Dick Yeager just a minute ago - they are alive and well. The PRR signal bridge will be out late December, early January. Dick said they needed to make a few corrections on it so it's behind the curve and back in the shop. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Re: quartering , My final post on the subject (Bill's too) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:15:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rod: Great! You're almost there! But the linkage AB must equal CD. The four programmable values should be: AD= 200 AB= 50 BC= 200 CD= 50 http://www.cden-rcci.mcmaster.ca/VisLinkage/ PLEASE, EVERYONE ON THE LIST, TRY ROD'S ANALYSIS WITH THE ABOVE VALUES. Just put CD= 50 first, then BC= 200 and hit return. Then hit start in the lower right corner. Enjoy! This does not address the forces, but it does prove quartering is required. So Speaketh Bill, one more time PS Since this is related to my experiment, I do not think it violates the spirit (so to speaketh) of my self-imposed gag rule BB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Joebrann@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:44:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Track names X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad which is based around Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off of a common lead and then head to a turntable which is at the end of a peninsula. As I begin to finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was wondering what the PRR would have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival and departure as I don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these two parallel tracks. Any help would be appreciated. Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Track names Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:32:58 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, I'd think it reasonable and prudent to call these your=20 "Engine Servicing" tracks.=20 -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. Joebrann@aol.com wrote: On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad=20 which is based around=20 Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off=20 of a common lead and=20 then head to a turntable which is at the end of a=20 peninsula. As I begin to=20 finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was=20 wondering what the PRR would=20 have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival=20 and departure as I=20 don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these=20 two parallel tracks. =20 Any help would be appreciated. Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Olszewski" Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:50:19 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel .jpg Thanks, Ed Olszewski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:14:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Off Topic-Train Show? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Western Pa Model Train Show goers, What is the date of the Erie Pa. train show at Waldemer Park? Not sure if it is coming up this sunday or when. Is there a Mr. Murphy here from the Erie vicinity that can confirm the date and times? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:18:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <004001c4c136$b61571f0$6400a8c0@ed> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 9010B07B-85254243-B2F19892-4AEBDC3E Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Not really good with freight car and all their sub classes - but it looks to be an X31 variant. The number appears to be 6xxxx consistent with the X31 class What looks to be a 6-foot wide door? My guess is it is an X31a in the 67400 to 68999 the only number series to have a 6 foot door Another guess - it is not an X43 - the bracing continues down past the floor. Note the difference in the next car back - no side sill more consistent with the X43 design. Just my guess - The SW1 is much more interesting though - IMHO! Cos Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Building the next generation of Leaders, support your local troop! Troop 53 - Maytown PA Harvest District of the Pennsylvania Dutch Council Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ed Olszewski Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:50 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel .jpg Thanks, Ed Olszewski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940df98af619232f20634ab24938ca64cbe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.253 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual clue. You might want to check out http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 for info and photos. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Olszewski" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in > the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will > be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number > series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. > > http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel > .jpg > > Thanks, > Ed Olszewski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:43:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/567/Mon Nov 1 10:13:35 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR Box in question is either an X29F or X29G. The brackets below the side sill and the use of dreadnaught ends narrow it down to an X29 rebuild and not an X26C rebuild. The 8-rung side ladder matches class X29F (606250-606649) or X29G (605350-606249). Unfortunately the car number is not readable for further Identification. Refer to page 53 of morning Sun "PRR Color guide vol 3" for pictures of these classes. Note I noticed that the number series given in the caption have been transposed. FYI the photo was taken in the Scranton Pa area, possibly on the laurel Line EL SW1 357 was originally Lackawanna 435. Also since a caboose is in use the picture was taken no earlier than October 1961 based on information in the Morning Sun Book, "Trackside around Scranton." Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Olszewski" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in > the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will > be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number > series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. > > http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel > .jpg > > Thanks, > Ed Olszewski > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:45:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/567/Mon Nov 1 10:13:35 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I forgot to mention see Ben Hom's articles in The Keystone Modeler for more X29 information. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Olszewski" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in > the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will > be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number > series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. > > http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel > .jpg > > Thanks, > Ed Olszewski > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: RE: [PRR] Off Topic-Train Show? Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:49:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <25499-41883106-4862@storefull-3118.bay.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.41.111.211] at Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:49:52 -0600 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Rainbow Gardens Erie show is this Sunday from 10:00 to 4:00. Don Murphy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:15 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Off Topic-Train Show? Western Pa Model Train Show goers, What is the date of the Erie Pa. train show at Waldemer Park? Not sure if it is coming up this sunday or when. Is there a Mr. Murphy here from the Erie vicinity that can confirm the date and times? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia interchange with the Reading Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:56:43 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The area I am modeling includes North philadelphia station and the interchange with the Reading just west of the statin and Chestnut Hill branch. I have a couple of questions. Was the interchange limited to the connecting tracks or did the Reading deliver cars to Margie yard 2/10 of a mile south? Was there any predominant Reqding freight power used or did it run the Gamut of engines on the Reading? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track names Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:07:20 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, Are we talking about Williamsport here? If so, Newberry Yard? There was also Walnut St. Yard downtown. for local switching. As far as I know, there were no names for the tracks, although I'm certainly no authority here. You could hardly go wrong using standard Pennsy practice, especially standard practice for the Buffalo Line. What did they use for Northumberland, Buffalo, or Erie? Again, you can hardly go wrong! Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: [PRR] Track names > > On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad which is based around > Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off of a common lead and > then head to a turntable which is at the end of a peninsula. As I begin to > finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was wondering what the PRR would > have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival and departure as I > don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these two parallel tracks. > Any help would be appreciated. > > Joe Brann > Owner / Engineer > Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) > Orlando, FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:01:40 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <1e.3755e70a.2eb83235@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2004 21:00:01.0845 (UTC) FILETIME=[15F94E50:01C4C1E8] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, There has been some discussion of sharing photos of models... Here are a few of mine Before http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/BrassLoco.jpg After http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/M1Mode6976after.jpg K4 with Disk Drivers http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/DiskDrivers1.jpg After a bit more progress. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/DiskDriverK4Progress.jpg I have this model complete but haven't had time to get a finished photo. SamV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:56:21 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Track names X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another name for arrival and departure would be inbound and outbound. Don't let the names dictate their absolute use though. The railroad certainly didn't. It's not uncommon to have a train arrive on an outbound track as it enters a yard. The railroad will use whatever is available at the time. I remember visiting Bay tower in Baltimore and the block operator telling a train crew "they had permission through the half-switch." "Half-switch? What the heck is that?" I said. The operator responded, "That's a manually thrown switch half-way down the yard off of No. 1 Track." Enjoy. Ken Meyer William Bigler wrote: >Joe, > >Are we talking about Williamsport here? If so, Newberry Yard? There was >also Walnut St. Yard downtown. for local switching. As far as I know, there >were no names for the tracks, although I'm certainly no authority here. You >could hardly go wrong using standard Pennsy practice, especially standard >practice for the Buffalo Line. What did they use for Northumberland, >Buffalo, or Erie? Again, you can hardly go wrong! > >Bill Bigler > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 PM >Subject: [PRR] Track names > > > > >>On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad which is based >> >> >around > > >>Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off of a common lead >> >> >and > > >>then head to a turntable which is at the end of a peninsula. As I begin to >>finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was wondering what the >> >> >PRR would > > >>have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival and departure as >> >> >I > > >>don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these two parallel >> >> >tracks. > > >>Any help would be appreciated. >> >>Joe Brann >>Owner / Engineer >>Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) >>Orlando, FL >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:38:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MTH K4s brochure Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:43:21 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:16:59 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:21:35 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: [PRR] Ken McCorry in the Dec. MR... Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Ken McCorry in the Dec. MR... Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:33:42 -0500 To: Bill Daniels X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 3, 2004, at 9:21 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > A friend of mine from my club (the Napa club in Napa > California)(lets NOT talk about the distance to visit > there...) informed me that the cover pic of the Dec MR > > (it has a article on Ken's layout) has some of the > pipe flats they did recently. Yes...I know it's post > PRR, but Ken is one of our own... Agreed... and it mentions his current plan to backdate to the 1950s. But Ken, what's with that non-REA box car on the passenger train? What about steam lines? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:20:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH K4s brochure X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The latest O gauge MTH Catalogue has a picture of an engine from every scale they make. The modernized K4 in the picture does not appear to have the mechanical lubricator. I do wonder if they are using the Bachmann K4 as a fill in, but I don't think so. When I saw this, it made me very happy that I chose the BLI K4 over the MTH K4. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kisala Sent: Nov 3, 2004 8:38 PM To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] MTH K4s brochure Hello list, The MTH HO scale K4s brochure I ordered (free for the emailing) arrived in my neck of the woods. I can't, at this point tell whether they're using an O scale model or if it is an HO pilot model; I'll do more checking after work. Biggest concern for me at this point is that none of the views show the left side (fireman's side) of the modernized engines, which need to have a mechanical lubricator to be correct. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:36:05 EST Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/3/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 > > Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will > leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual > clue. You might want to check out > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 > > for info and photos. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL I haven't seen the picture, but any PRR rebuild that looks like an X29g is almost indistinguishable from an X29f. I'd appreciate expert advice on how they are different (other than the interior equipment). We used to have a large fleet of each at GE for hauling appliances -- the f's were equipped with Spartan TriBelts (a useless and unsuccessful DF competitor) and were assigned to Appliance Park (Louisville) Kentucky. The g's were assigned to our Hotpoint works in Cicero (Chicago) Illinois, switched by the B& OCT; the odd thing about them was that they had no "loader" type equipment, but still were assigned to our Cicero pool as "equipped" cars under Car Service Directive 145. As most of you have already heard from my posts years ago, from circa 1958, GE had 40' assigned cars from 26 railroads. It was obvious that PRR wasn't the only carrier that rebuilt cars with 8' doors for appliance service in the late 1950's. Among other benefits, this made life very hard for the grain operators who "stole" cars every fall -- the 6' grain door liner just didn't fit these cars. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:52:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20041104021659.61976.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 12:50:00.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC160C30:01C4C26C] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, Doug, Group, I appreciate the kind words. I will consider doing another for TKM. I need to get another Bowser K4 kit. It might be a while. This MBA is killing me! But I think it is a very strait forward conversion. I think the hardest part was re-routing the running boards. I worked very closely from a photo off Gary M.'s site. I have started to do that with any model I build. I find as many photos of a specific engine number, trying to get at least a left & right side view. This helps placement of detail parts. I used a Helix Humper in this particular engine and I am very disappointed in it's performance. Anybody else have this experience? SamV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:17 PM To: Doug Kisala; svastano@hotmail.com; PRR talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Hi Doug... IIRC, one of the charachteristics of the K4sa class was the use of a front-end throttle. So if I'm correct only K4sa's had the box on the smokebox. Anyone out there know why such a bulky arrangement was used by the PRR? Other roads managed quite nicely with a small poppet valve manifold that fit inside the smokebox. BTW, Sam that is some nice modeling...consider taking Doug's advice and writing it up for TKM. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- Doug Kisala wrote: > Sam, list, > > This looks like some very nice work on your part. > You > should submit the photos and a writeup to the > Keystone > Modeler. > > I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a K4s or > K4sa with a front end throttle! > > Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:36:05 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29f, X29g, and GE In a message dated 11/3/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 > > Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will > leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual > clue. You might want to check out > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 > > for info and photos. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL I haven't seen the picture, but any PRR rebuild that looks like an X29g is almost indistinguishable from an X29f. I'd appreciate expert advice on how they are different (other than the interior equipment). We used to have a large fleet of each at GE for hauling appliances -- the f's were equipped with Spartan TriBelts (a useless and unsuccessful DF competitor) and were assigned to Appliance Park (Louisville) Kentucky. The g's were assigned to our Hotpoint works in Cicero (Chicago) Illinois, switched by the B& OCT; the odd thing about them was that they had no "loader" type equipment, but still were assigned to our Cicero pool as "equipped" cars under Car Service Directive 145. As most of you have already heard from my posts years ago, from circa 1958, GE had 40' assigned cars from 26 railroads. It was obvious that PRR wasn't the only carrier that rebuilt cars with 8' doors for appliance service in the late 1950's. Among other benefits, this made life very hard for the grain operators who "stole" cars every fall -- the 6' grain door liner just didn't fit these cars. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:32:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <35824D3A25D22944B9B21E49AF10FF4C06C5AF@server1.mstprod.local> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTCbaR7mhLsepI+QCeNMzDFHfv1vQAHezSg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam, I am considering the HH for my Bowser K4s. What problems have you encountered. I have installed HHs in 2 L1s and am very happy with them. They still pull very well, and are much quieter and smoother running than the original DC70s. What's more, I can now double head the 2 L1s. I could never do that before. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:52 AM To: 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Bill, Doug, Group, I appreciate the kind words. I will consider doing another for TKM. I need to get another Bowser K4 kit. It might be a while. This MBA is killing me! But I think it is a very strait forward conversion. I think the hardest part was re-routing the running boards. I worked very closely from a photo off Gary M.'s site. I have started to do that with any model I build. I find as many photos of a specific engine number, trying to get at least a left & right side view. This helps placement of detail parts. I used a Helix Humper in this particular engine and I am very disappointed in it's performance. Anybody else have this experience? SamV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:17 PM To: Doug Kisala; svastano@hotmail.com; PRR talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Hi Doug... IIRC, one of the charachteristics of the K4sa class was the use of a front-end throttle. So if I'm correct only K4sa's had the box on the smokebox. Anyone out there know why such a bulky arrangement was used by the PRR? Other roads managed quite nicely with a small poppet valve manifold that fit inside the smokebox. BTW, Sam that is some nice modeling...consider taking Doug's advice and writing it up for TKM. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- Doug Kisala wrote: > Sam, list, > > This looks like some very nice work on your part. > You > should submit the photos and a writeup to the Keystone Modeler. > > I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a K4s or K4sa with a front > end throttle! > > Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:45:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Production photos of BLI's K4 are now posted to their site... http://www.broadway-limitedwest.com/k4samp.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:48:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200411041630.iA4GUNI09893@smtp-bedford.mitre.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 16:47:00.0986 (UTC) FILETIME=[E7E3CDA0:01C4C28D] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy, I think I have a bad motor. Mine smells bad after running it and has very little power. I have tested it just on the bench and there is no binding in the drivers so that is the only thing I can think of. Another reason I think it is the motor, When I first installed it, it was smooth as silk and even coasted. SamV -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com; 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Sam, I am considering the HH for my Bowser K4s. What problems have you encountered. I have installed HHs in 2 L1s and am very happy with them. They still pull very well, and are much quieter and smoother running than the original DC70s. What's more, I can now double head the 2 L1s. I could never do that before. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:52 AM To: 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Bill, Doug, Group, I appreciate the kind words. I will consider doing another for TKM. I need to get another Bowser K4 kit. It might be a while. This MBA is killing me! But I think it is a very strait forward conversion. I think the hardest part was re-routing the running boards. I worked very closely from a photo off Gary M.'s site. I have started to do that with any model I build. I find as many photos of a specific engine number, trying to get at least a left & right side view. This helps placement of detail parts. I used a Helix Humper in this particular engine and I am very disappointed in it's performance. Anybody else have this experience? SamV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:17 PM To: Doug Kisala; svastano@hotmail.com; PRR talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Hi Doug... IIRC, one of the charachteristics of the K4sa class was the use of a front-end throttle. So if I'm correct only K4sa's had the box on the smokebox. Anyone out there know why such a bulky arrangement was used by the PRR? Other roads managed quite nicely with a small poppet valve manifold that fit inside the smokebox. BTW, Sam that is some nice modeling...consider taking Doug's advice and writing it up for TKM. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- Doug Kisala wrote: > Sam, list, > > This looks like some very nice work on your part. > You > should submit the photos and a writeup to the Keystone Modeler. > > I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a K4s or K4sa with a front > end throttle! > > Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:02:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam, Are these Helix Motors true Can Motors? I so, a light tap with a small ballpean hammer on the end may help settle the brushes in better position. I know this works for Sagami's when they are not running properly....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:09:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, Thanks for the alert on the photos. I took a really quick look. Something jumped out at me that looked kinda crude. Is it my eyes or are those Tender Markers, which are located in the proper position for a post war version, a bit funky looking? It appears they are just 2-d, not even 3-d relief cast on blobs. Check it out and see what I mean. It appears one will have to take a blade to slice them off and add brass castings. Again, look at the photo and please tell me I am just seeing things.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Thanks for the alert on the photos. I took a really quick look. > Something jumped out at me that looked kinda crude. Is it my eyes or > are > those Tender Markers, which are located in the proper position for a > post war version, a bit funky looking? It appears they are just 2-d, > not > even 3-d relief cast on blobs. Check it out and see what I mean. It > appears one will have to take a blade to slice them off and add brass > castings. Again, look at the photo and please tell me I am just seeing > things.....Gary Did you click on the image to bring up the higher-res version? They don't look 2D to me, but I will agree that they could be more detailed. You'd think that by their definition of "Paragon Platinum" that they would have colored lenses instead of just plastic! I still think it looks better than the (pre production) photos of the MTH offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:20:26 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <25853-418A60C2-974@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 17:19:00.0745 (UTC) FILETIME=[6027C790:01C4C292] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com HMMM, Just get a bigger hammer!!! Sounds like the farmers around here... No seriously Gary I will try that. It is a can motor. Hopefully that will work but I have several can motors I could replace it with. SamV -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 12:03 PM To: svastano@hotmail.com Cc: 'Andy Miller'; 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Sam, Are these Helix Motors true Can Motors? I so, a light tap with a small ballpean hammer on the end may help settle the brushes in better position. I know this works for Sagami's when they are not running properly....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:25:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, OK, didn't know you could zoom in on the pics. I did mention I took a quick look. Yep, they look a little better than my first glance. Appears they are the same solid plastic markers they have used on previous models. Still need to replace with Brass Cal Scale, Cary or PSC parts anyway. At least you can just pluck them out of mounting holes rather than using a blade to shave them off......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:24:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just looked at the rear of the K4 Loco as seen in the new photos Jerry mentioned that were posted on the BLI site this morning. Gone is the familiar looking metal drawbar with the holes. Looks like some kind of new "claw" that engages to something on the tender which can't been seen in any photos.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:30:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 03:24 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Just looked at the rear of the K4 Loco as seen in the new photos Jerry > mentioned that were posted on the BLI site this morning. Gone is the > familiar looking metal drawbar with the holes. Looks like some kind of > new "claw" that engages to something on the tender which can't been > seen > in any photos.....Gary I noticed that as well, but kinda shrugged it off. Looks like more of an interlocking "handshake" design rather than the traditional plate with holes that a pin goes through. Probably a better design, actually. Interesting to see will be the length of the leads between the engine and the tender. The T1 was very tight whereas the M1 had a lot of slack (which could be tucked back into the tender after connecting). I definitely prefer the longer leads. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:44:38 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary, I too saw that. I'm guessing it would be similar to the=20 way the tender on the tender connected to the Trix Big=20 Boy. In a way, BLI has made it easier to connect them. You=20 can sit both on the track, and once the claw is seated on=20 the tender pin, with a small push together they connect. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: Just looked at the rear of the K4 Loco as seen in the new=20 photos Jerry mentioned that were posted on the BLI site this morning.=20 Gone is the familiar looking metal drawbar with the holes. Looks like=20 some kind of new "claw" that engages to something on the tender which=20 can't been seen in any photos.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:17:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/572/Wed Nov 3 05:48:18 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, other than the car number, I've read the only difference was the internal equipment. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE > In a message dated 11/3/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 > > > > Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will > > leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual > > clue. You might want to check out > > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 > > > > for info and photos. > > > > Steve Hoxie > > Pensacola FL > > I haven't seen the picture, but any PRR rebuild that looks like an X29g is > almost indistinguishable from an X29f. I'd appreciate expert advice on how they > are different (other than the interior equipment). > > We used to have a large fleet of each at GE for hauling appliances -- the f's > were equipped with Spartan TriBelts (a useless and unsuccessful DF > competitor) and were assigned to Appliance Park (Louisville) Kentucky. The g's were > assigned to our Hotpoint works in Cicero (Chicago) Illinois, switched by the B& > OCT; the odd thing about them was that they had no "loader" type equipment, but > still were assigned to our Cicero pool as "equipped" cars under Car Service > Directive 145. > > As most of you have already heard from my posts years ago, from circa 1958, > GE had 40' assigned cars from 26 railroads. It was obvious that PRR wasn't the > only carrier that rebuilt cars with 8' doors for appliance service in the > late 1950's. Among other benefits, this made life very hard for the grain > operators who "stole" cars every fall -- the 6' grain door liner just didn't fit > these cars. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:01:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] K4sa and front end throttles From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:30:15 EST Subject: [PRR] FM Trainmasters X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com When did the PRR get the H24-66's? Maybe I missed it but has anyone reviewed the Atlas units? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] FM Trainmasters Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:41:12 -0500 To: CENTGA@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:30 PM, CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > When did the PRR get the H24-66's? Maybe I missed it but has anyone > reviewed > the Atlas units? Todd Horton Class FS24m arrived on the Pennsy in 1956. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:02:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6323EE53-2F33-11D9-AF09-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand, but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals. The jury is still out, but I wanted to pass on the "head's up" for those considering the model. The conversation continues. The current plan is to scan the sides and place them online next to actual photos for comparison. The Branchline 12-1 is said to be correct. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Olszewski" Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:33:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-reply-to: <000e01c4c2d5$43adc220$3354c840@b6x9501> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I want to thank everyone for their responses on and off the list. As this was my first post I am impressed with the patience you have all shown and the quality of the information provided to me. Elden, thanks for the ideas for using the Branchline box cars as a starting point. I am going to be exhibiting at the Central New York Train Fair this weekend and will be looking for the 40' and 50' cars you suggested. Rick, the only other difference between the X29f and X29g I have been able to find so far is the Lt Weight of the X29f is 54,300 lbs and the Lt Weight of the X29g is 53,300 lbs. I got this information off the Equipment Diagrams available on railfan.net. This difference could be from the different internal equipment between the cars or they had different structures that resulted in a savings of half a ton between the cars when empty. Both classes of cars used the same trucks, 2D-F19H. And to Ben Holm, I look forward to the next installment of your X29 series in TKM! Thanks, Ed Olszewski -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:18 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Rick, other than the car number, I've read the only difference was the internal equipment. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE [ remainder of message removed, see archives ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8414@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Thread-Index: AcTDRLgem6wf9P+HS4Otljzz5kJDqwADTDXg From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Ed Olszewski" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am not 100% sure, but I believe one or the other X29f or g was fitted (on the interior) for grain loading and the other for general merchandise. A box car outfitted for grain loading had an opening at the bottom of the lining so that grain that managed to get behind the interior lining could leak out onto the floor. The others had cleats every so many feet up the walls to tie metal strapping over the lading to keep it from skating around the car interior during transit. Both models were built during the mammoth freight car building boom in 1961-1962 as I recall. One of those years the PRR built or rebuilt 23,500 freight cars, about 80% at Sam Rea in Hollidaysburg shop. The rest came from Pullman Standard in Hammond, IN. Possibly a few from Butler, PA. Bill -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ed Olszewski Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:34 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE All, I want to thank everyone for their responses on and off the list. As this was my first post I am impressed with the patience you have all shown and the quality of the information provided to me. Elden, thanks for the ideas for using the Branchline box cars as a starting point. I am going to be exhibiting at the Central New York Train Fair this weekend and will be looking for the 40' and 50' cars you suggested. Rick, the only other difference between the X29f and X29g I have been able to find so far is the Lt Weight of the X29f is 54,300 lbs and the Lt Weight of the X29g is 53,300 lbs. I got this information off the Equipment Diagrams available on railfan.net. This difference could be from the different internal equipment between the cars or they had different structures that resulted in a savings of half a ton between the cars when empty. Both classes of cars used the same trucks, 2D-F19H. And to Ben Holm, I look forward to the next installment of your X29 series in TKM! Thanks, Ed Olszewski -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:18 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Rick, other than the car number, I've read the only difference was the internal equipment. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE [ remainder of message removed, see archives ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:44:39 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry writes... >I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand,< Let's refrain from comments beyond this point regarding the WKW Heavyweight passenger cars including the newly released 12-1, IF in fact you are not a member of the PCL list... Also, we as Pennsy Modelers should discount any statements of speculation as just that uneductated speculation. There is a full review foirthcoming from Bruce Smith. >but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals.< One of the best points is that Dennis Storzek (ACCURAIL) did a very convincing study of the windows and discounted these rumors... Select members of the PRRT&HS Modeling committee have been privy to both measurement results, excluding Bruce Smith in order that he can remain nuetral in his study... >The jury is still out, but I wanted to pass on the "head's up" for those considering the model. The conversation continues. The current plan is to scan the sides and place them online next to actual photos for comparison.< The best resolution will be a measurement of the windows to drawingss as has been done. I (adn slelect memebers of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee) also have seen one other comparison that supports Dennis' claims. But again allow Bruce, without bias, to do his job for The Keystone Modelers... >The Branchline 12-1 is said to be correct.< Bruce will also review the Branchline kit and I don't dispute the fact that Branchlines are correct either. I saw their 8-1-2 with Laser Cut Windows installed and they were impressive... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:01:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 02:44 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Jerry writes... > >> I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first >> hand,< > > Let's refrain from comments beyond this point regarding the WKW > Heavyweight passenger cars including the newly released 12-1, IF in > fact you are not a member of the PCL list... Also, we as Pennsy > Modelers should discount any statements of speculation as just that > uneductated speculation. There is a full review foirthcoming from > Bruce Smith. > >> but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw Greg: 1) I did not say it was fact. I said "there are reports" and indicated it was being researched further. I also indicated "where" (the PCL list on YeeHaw) so people who were interested could follow the subject directly; 2) I AM a member of the PCL list. I guess then, by your own words, I am allowed to discuss the matter. Thank you for your permission. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Personal follow up to Future Conventions Thread Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:58:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am personally following up to the recent thread on "Future Conventions" which I believe started on PRR-FAX as "Geographic Location of Members." The subject really interested me, and at the urging of several people, I am seeing whether I can keep it going and do something with it. In addition to possibly eventually identifying possibly future convention sites, fallout could include new members, local conventions, local conventions or chapter meetings for other organizations (NMRA comes to mind), or even a new chapter or two. I am copying PRR-FAX & PRR-Talk on this message, but want to take the discussion off-line. So please, please, respond to me off-line. I have no illusions here - I realize the initial enthusiasm about these things quickly fades and we're on to new topics, business as usual, and today's crises in our lives. But hopefully I (or one or more of us) can keep this one going. And please let's try to discipline ourselves: a) No me-too responses; b) don't copy us all unless individuals indicate they prefer to be copied (I do!); c) if someone asks to be taken off the list, please update your address list/book - let's respect their wishes; d) please don't copy the e-mail lists unless the List-Meisters ask us too - I'll send summary updates as appropriate; e) Please keep Subject line current, but always include the word "Conventions" in the subject line as I will auto-forward the messages to a separate e-mail folder for convenience in locating and handling. And f) very important - should be A-1, please don't involve the PRRT&HS board of directors - they are volunteers with much more than they can handle already. Thanks! I got your names and e-mails from your responses to the initial thread (except for Jerry Shickler who has the great website on the P&E, E&P, & Chataqua Branches). I will also pull other names from folks who have PRR websites as time permits. If you would like me to drop your name from this discussion list, just let me know and consider it done. And please, send replies to me off list - resist the temptation to hit "reply all" or copy the list, unless the List-Meisters prefer otherwise. I will copy the lists on summaries periodically as appropriate. I will send a summary of my own thoughts in a day or two Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Triumph VII Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:01:16 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please keep me posted on the progress of Triumph VII. Since I'm on the hook for a presentation on Williamsport at Camp Hill in May, I'm obviously eager to obtain a copy at the earliest possible moment. If anyone is aware of an early copy being released, please let me know. Thanks! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Need contact info for Bill Coloroso Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:32:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone have contact info for Bill Coloroso (PRR Elmira Branch) e-mail, phone, or otherwise? Thanks! Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:04:16 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Enola Yard program in Harrisburg on Monday night Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Jerry and the List: For those who are within driving distance of Harrisburg, on Monday night (Nov. 8) at 7 pm, I'll be giving a slide program on the history of Enola Yard, at the Dauphin County Historical Society's John Harris Mansion at 219 S. Front St. in Harrisburg. More specifically, the mansion is located between the Cumberland Valley bridge and the Reading bridge. Admission is free but the society has limited seating capacity, so if anyone is interested in attending, you might want to call and register to save a space (Office hours are Mon.-Thurs. 10 am to 4 pm) at 717-233-3462. Driving directions are available at http://www.dauphincountyhistoricalsociety.org/info.htm Info for those who are out of the area: I'll be giving a similar program at next spring's PRRT&HS convention. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:08:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <6323EE53-2F33-11D9-AF09-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand, but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals. I have seen the PCL comments as well as the results of subsequent analysis from other respected modelers. From what I can see I believe the "well-respected individual" may be found wanting. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:34:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/5/2004 5:16:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: Re: I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand, but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals. I have seen the PCL comments as well as the results of subsequent analysis from other respected modelers. From what I can see I believe the "well-respected individual" may be found wanting. That may be until you examine the size of the rivet heads, the alignment of the stripes and the letter thickness and color of the lettering and striping. There is a distinct difference. I am not saying which is correct just that side-by-side there is a noticable difference. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Dynamic counterbalance X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/1/04 11:03:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:54:31 -0000 > From: "tim_zukas" > Subject: Re: sidebar on balancing > > > "...counterbalance is only completely effective at one speed of > rotation." > > Can you give an example of a locomotive that is unbalanced at 20 mph > and balanced at 40 mph-- or whatever higher speed you like? Tim, Short answer -- any rodded locomotive. But read on... Just to get a couple of points out of the way, I accept without problem the assertion that quartering is the best way to join drivers with rods, as it avoids "dead" spots. I would also hope that you understand that static balancing of the rotating parts is desirable, but that the real problem is balancing the various centrifugal forces of rotation - in other words, dynamic balancing. Also, please remember that there is theory -- and there is the real world, where sometimes theory works (and sometimes it doesn't, exactly). Please excuse the following, as most of it is in physics-speak. The wheels on a diesel locomotive (or on your car) are axle-driven without rods, and thus can be "radially symmetrical" -- although they still have to be "balanced" to get rid of small errors in their symmetry. By contrast, every locomotive whose rotating parts are not radially symmetrical around the axle centers has to be balanced "statically", and also "dynamically". In static balancing, we know that the rods and counterweights physically may not be the same distance from the axis of rotation -- for example, where the counterweight is out next to the tire, and the rod bearing is farther in on the wheel. But since the angular momentum is proportional to the mass times the moment arm, the amount of counterweight for static balancing is straightforward to calculate. Unfortunately, the counterbalance will not in general be the same distance out the axle as the rod -- the rod is hung on the outside of the wheel. As we know from experience with washing machines, an unsymmetrical rotating assembly can lead to very strong gyroscopic ("slinging") forces. Fortunately, this problem of unsymmetrical angular momentums is proportional to the square of the speed of rotation, so low-speed errors in dynamic counterbalance would usually result in forces low enough to ignore. But at higher speeds, any errors in dynamic counterbalance should show up as rough riding, high bearing forces, marking the track, etc. There have to be other factors that I haven't addressed -- like how much of the main rod weight is carried by the drive wheel, are there other adjustments for rod thrust, etc. I know little about that stuff, but a good steam locomotive designer did. In practice, a steam locomotive (or rodded electric or diesel-electric) was dynamically counterbalanced by design (and test in the real world!) to run smoothest at its intended operating speed, and would have unpleasant riding and tracking characteristics at still higher speeds. The specs, which someone on the list found were changed by PRR over time, undoubtedly reflected a progress from a set of theoretical calculations to tested alternatives that gave even better results. The I1, a drag engine design, was probably a good practical example of large dynamic counterbalance error -- it had massive rods coupling four drivers, and reportedly it became a real joltwagon if run above a certain speed. The T1 represents the other extreme -- with only two coupled axles, the alloy rods could be lighter, and "dynamic augment" was not a problem until somewhere north of 100 mph. I wish now that I still had the steam locomotive engineering books we sold from Jack Fravert's estate -- they would probably shed light on the real world of counterbalancing. All I have on hand is the humorous fiction story "Counterbalance" by A.W. Somerville, which appears in Donovan and Henry's Headlights and Markers. In this story, Master Mechanic T.P. Patchbolt solves a mystery involving a passenger engine and a fatal derailment. The point of the yarn is that, improperly counterbalanced, a steam engine could jump off the track at a speed as low as 42 miles an hour. It's been fun following this thread -- now let's get back to Pennsy history and equipment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City tunnels X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/4/04 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:02:22 -0000 > From: "Andy Hart" > Subject: Re: BEV-BEL HO 50' REA Wood Refrigerator > > > --- In PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" > wrote: > > > >Dave (drrhid@h...) asked: > >"Are the subject models representative of an actual PRR class?" > > > >NO. The Pennsy did not own any 50 ft DS express reefers. > > > > > >"If not, does anyone know what road they belong to?" > > > >The Athearn 50 ft DS express reefer is closest to a class of > Pacific > >Fruit Express express reefers; > > > >These cars did run in PRR mail and express trains (though runs > into > >NYC/Sunnyside are in question due to their construction. Does > >anyone have hard evidence; i.e., not hearsay, confirming or > denying > >wooden express car routing into NYC or Sunnyside?) > > > >Ben Hom > > Ben and others, > > I have uploaded a photo to the files section showing a PFE express > reefer on the tracks leading into Pennsylvania Express Terminal > (PXT) at Sunnyside Yard. > > The car is one of the type that had a wide fascia board. The car > number cannot be determined from the photo. > > The photo was taken from Harold Ave. looking north. Behind the car > are a PRR R60 express reefer, 5 N5 cabin cars assigned to > mail/express service, a B60b baggage car, and several Pullman > sleepers. The car is coupled to a PRR R50b reefer. In the > background is the rear of "R" tower. > > The photo is taken around 1940. > > Andy Hart Listmates, The Pennsy was adamant about running only all-steel cars in the tunnels to Penn Station New York. PRR veteran Don Hess (now a resident of Cincinnati) used to work in Pittsburgh in the '50s-- and tells the story of operating men trying to catch any cars not all-steel there before they can even get close to Manhattan. The Pittsburgh passenger forces were supposed to switch out all woodsheathed cars so that their contents could be reloaded into suitable steel baggages or express reefers, which then had to be forwarded with minimum delay. His story includes the mention that the most common woodsheathed car stopped at Pittsburgh was New York Central express reefers. After being unloaded, they were most conveniently flushed from the system on the Clevelander; at Cleveland, they could be interchanged back to the NYCS. Obviously, a leaker got through from time to time -- and don't forget there were nontunnel ways this car MIGHT have gotten there, although presence in Sunnyside is a pretty good sign it came through the Hudson and East River tunnels. Bottom line, we can be confident that most days, any PRR, REX, or other headend equipment will be all-steel classes on Pennsy passenger or mail/express schedules running Pittsburgh-New York. Assuming the PFE 50' passenger reefer in the picture cited is woodsheathed, this picture represents an unusual event, not sanctioned by the management. PS -- if you ever get the chance to hear Don Hess talk about his days on the Pennsy, make time to listen. He's got a lot of great stories... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/06/04 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/6/04 1:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Class FS24m arrived on the Pennsy in 1956. And according to Dave Sweetland's fourth PRR color volume (just out), all 9 of them were assigned to Columbus Ohio by the mid-sixties. Sometimes I just luck out... (I'm modeling Columbus and am a big fan of EMD and FM power) Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:57 EST Subject: [PRR] More on 40' appliance cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, Usually I find your posts to be spot on. I hate to nitpick this time, but have to disagree with some of your statements below (see comments): In a message dated 11/6/04 1:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE > From: "Bill Volkmer" > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0600 > > I am not 100% sure, but I believe one or the other X29f or g was fitted > (on the interior) for grain loading and the other for general > merchandise. A box car outfitted for grain loading had an opening at > the bottom of the lining so that grain that managed to get behind the > interior lining could leak out onto the floor. The others had cleats > every so many feet up the walls to tie metal strapping over the lading > to keep it from skating around the car interior during transit. The metal strap anchors were on the X29g. I know from being inside them that the X29f had bars with Spartan Tri Belt sockets built into the walls. These STB loaders did the same job as Evans DF bars; they were simply a less useful and less successful competitor in 1957/58 when these cars were rebuilt. The 8 foot doors were the first thing that told you these two classes were not grain cars. In the case of the STB-equipped X29F, add in the unholy mess that resulted when elevator operators actually succeeded in getting a load of grain into one (this did happen occasionally). The grain didn't clear out of all the sockets and spaces in the car's sidewall/lining, and rotted there. A car in this condition is unfit for loading kitchen appliances in cardboard cartons -- it stinks to high heaven, and requires a thorough and laborious cleaning by car forces. I don't know right now which class you might be thinking of instead, but we loaded these boxcars hundreds of times a year (X29F and X29G, assigned to GE appliance). I cannot prove or disprove that the rest of each class were assigned to our competitors (Whirlpool, White Consolidated, Frigidaire, etc), but the 8 foot door for fork lift loading of appliances 3 wide was demanded by appliance manufacturers relatively early in the game -- it was a matter of warehouse productivity. Original X29's were the perfect rebuild fodder for appliance hauling -- the rebuilds needed a higher inside height (IL) and an 8' wide door, but the total load of the car was light. Thus, even though rated at 50 tons as rebuilt, you could use the original underframe because cars of appliances are "mostly shipping air". The other 25 railroads in this pool came up with similar cars -- and probably many were rebuilds of some kind. They did differ -- most of the nonPennsy cars had DF-2 bars, which were really useful in keeping the stacked appliances from bouncing around the car. Just about all had 8' doors, although the Southern Pacific's cars were double door cars (12' doorway?), with DF bars extending 4' into the doorway of the left door. And most had that "late 50's billboard" look, as the railroads dieselized and tried to make their car graphics more modern. > > Both models were built during the mammoth freight car building boom in > 1961-1962 as I recall. One of those years the PRR built or rebuilt > 23,500 freight cars, about 80% at Sam Rea in Hollidaysburg shop. The > rest came from Pullman Standard in Hammond, IN. Possibly a few from > Butler, PA. These classes' rebuilding came slightly earlier. The tipoff is that they're lettered in SK2a -- a scheme used from 1957 to 1960, and superseded by SK2b. IIRC, the date on most of them is 1958 (I need to check my slides, but those are interred deep in the basement at present). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:54:11 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick: Page 329 of PPII also has a PFE express reefer (wood, I believe) behind the GG1 Pittsburgh-NY on the Metropolitan. Not saying this disputes the rule, just giving an example of another possible exception, I think. Though I suppose it could be set out before the tunnels if there was a stop (not a line I am that familiar with the schedules). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Bottom line, we can be confident that most days, any PRR, REX, or other > headend equipment will be all-steel classes on Pennsy passenger or mail/express > schedules running Pittsburgh-New York. Assuming the PFE 50' passenger reefer in > the picture cited is woodsheathed, this picture represents an unusual event, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:34 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Dynamic counterbalance >"tim_zukas" > > "...counterbalance is only completely effective at one speed of > rotation." > > Can you give an example of a locomotive that is unbalanced at 20 mph > and balanced at 40 mph-- or whatever higher speed you like? Tim, Short answer -- any rodded locomotive. But read on... Just to get a couple of points out of the way, I accept without problem the assertion that quartering is the best way to join drivers with rods, as it avoids "dead" spots. I would also hope that you understand that static balancing of the rotating parts is desirable, but that the real problem is balancing the various centrifugal forces of rotation - in other words, dynamic balancing. Also, please remember that there is theory -- and there is the real world, where sometimes theory works (and sometimes it doesn't, exactly). Please excuse the following, as most of it is in physics-speak. The wheels on a diesel locomotive (or on your car) are axle-driven without rods, and thus can be "radially symmetrical" -- although they still have to be "balanced" to get rid of small errors in their symmetry. By contrast, every locomotive whose rotating parts are not radially symmetrical around the axle centers has to be balanced "statically", and also "dynamically". In static balancing, we know that the rods and counterweights physically may not be the same distance from the axis of rotation -- for example, where the counterweight is out next to the tire, and the rod bearing is farther in on the wheel. But since the angular momentum is proportional to the mass times the moment arm, the amount of counterweight for static balancing is straightforward to calculate. Unfortunately, the counterbalance will not in general be the same distance out the axle as the rod -- the rod is hung on the outside of the wheel. As we know from experience with washing machines, an unsymmetrical rotating assembly can lead to very strong gyroscopic ("slinging") forces. Fortunately, this problem of unsymmetrical angular momentums is proportional to the square of the speed of rotation, so low-speed errors in dynamic counterbalance would usually result in forces low enough to ignore. But at higher speeds, any errors in dynamic counterbalance should show up as rough riding, high bearing forces, marking the track, etc. There have to be other factors that I haven't addressed -- like how much of the main rod weight is carried by the drive wheel, are there other adjustments for rod thrust, etc. I know little about that stuff, but a good steam locomotive designer did. In practice, a steam locomotive (or rodded electric or diesel-electric) was dynamically counterbalanced by design (and test in the real world!) to run smoothest at its intended operating speed, and would have unpleasant riding and tracking characteristics at still higher speeds. The specs, which someone on the list found were changed by PRR over time, undoubtedly reflected a progress from a set of theoretical calculations to tested alternatives that gave even better results. The I1, a drag engine design, was probably a good practical example of large dynamic counterbalance error -- it had massive rods coupling four drivers, and reportedly it became a real joltwagon if run above a certain speed. The T1 represents the other extreme -- with only two coupled axles, the alloy rods could be lighter, and "dynamic augment" was not a problem until somewhere north of 100 mph. I wish now that I still had the steam locomotive engineering books we sold from Jack Fravert's estate -- they would probably shed light on the real world of counterbalancing. All I have on hand is the humorous fiction story "Counterbalance" by A.W. Somerville, which appears in Donovan and Henry's Headlights and Markers. In this story, Master Mechanic T.P. Patchbolt solves a mystery involving a passenger engine and a fatal derailment. The point of the yarn is that, improperly counterbalanced, a steam engine could jump off the track at a speed as low as 42 miles an hour. It's been fun following this thread -- now let's get back to Pennsy history and equipment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:43 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City tunnels Listmates, The Pennsy was adamant about running only all-steel cars in the tunnels to Penn Station New York. PRR veteran Don Hess (now a resident of Cincinnati) used to work in Pittsburgh in the '50s-- and tells the story of operating men trying to catch any cars not all-steel there before they can even get close to Manhattan. The Pittsburgh passenger forces were supposed to switch out all woodsheathed cars so that their contents could be reloaded into suitable steel baggages or express reefers, which then had to be forwarded with minimum delay. His story includes the mention that the most common woodsheathed car stopped at Pittsburgh was New York Central express reefers. After being unloaded, they were most conveniently flushed from the system on the Clevelander; at Cleveland, they could be interchanged back to the NYCS. Obviously, a leaker got through from time to time -- and don't forget there were nontunnel ways this car MIGHT have gotten there, although presence in Sunnyside is a pretty good sign it came through the Hudson and East River tunnels. Bottom line, we can be confident that most days, any PRR, REX, or other headend equipment will be all-steel classes on Pennsy passenger or mail/express schedules running Pittsburgh-New York. Assuming the PFE 50' passenger reefer in the picture cited is woodsheathed, this picture represents an unusual event, not sanctioned by the management. PS -- if you ever get the chance to hear Don Hess talk about his days on the Pennsy, make time to listen. He's got a lot of great stories... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:57 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] More on 40' appliance cars Bill, Usually I find your posts to be spot on. I hate to nitpick this time, but have to disagree with some of your statements below (see comments): In a message dated 11/6/04 1:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE > From: "Bill Volkmer" > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0600 > > I am not 100% sure, but I believe one or the other X29f or g was fitted > (on the interior) for grain loading and the other for general > merchandise. A box car outfitted for grain loading had an opening at > the bottom of the lining so that grain that managed to get behind the > interior lining could leak out onto the floor. The others had cleats > every so many feet up the walls to tie metal strapping over the lading > to keep it from skating around the car interior during transit. The metal strap anchors were on the X29g. I know from being inside them that the X29f had bars with Spartan Tri Belt sockets built into the walls. These STB loaders did the same job as Evans DF bars; they were simply a less useful and less successful competitor in 1957/58 when these cars were rebuilt. The 8 foot doors were the first thing that told you these two classes were not grain cars. In the case of the STB-equipped X29F, add in the unholy mess that resulted when elevator operators actually succeeded in getting a load of grain into one (this did happen occasionally). The grain didn't clear out of all the sockets and spaces in the car's sidewall/lining, and rotted there. A car in this condition is unfit for loading kitchen appliances in cardboard cartons -- it stinks to high heaven, and requires a thorough and laborious cleaning by car forces. I don't know right now which class you might be thinking of instead, but we loaded these boxcars hundreds of times a year (X29F and X29G, assigned to GE appliance). I cannot prove or disprove that the rest of each class were assigned to our competitors (Whirlpool, White Consolidated, Frigidaire, etc), but the 8 foot door for fork lift loading of appliances 3 wide was demanded by appliance manufacturers relatively early in the game -- it was a matter of warehouse productivity. Original X29's were the perfect rebuild fodder for appliance hauling -- the rebuilds needed a higher inside height (IL) and an 8' wide door, but the total load of the car was light. Thus, even though rated at 50 tons as rebuilt, you could use the original underframe because cars of appliances are "mostly shipping air". The other 25 railroads in this pool came up with similar cars -- and probably many were rebuilds of some kind. They did differ -- most of the nonPennsy cars had DF-2 bars, which were really useful in keeping the stacked appliances from bouncing around the car. Just about all had 8' doors, although the Southern Pacific's cars were double door cars (12' doorway?), with DF bars extending 4' into the doorway of the left door. And most had that "late 50's billboard" look, as the railroads dieselized and tried to make their car graphics more modern. > > Both models were built during the mammoth freight car building boom in > 1961-1962 as I recall. One of those years the PRR built or rebuilt > 23,500 freight cars, about 80% at Sam Rea in Hollidaysburg shop. The > rest came from Pullman Standard in Hammond, IN. Possibly a few from > Butler, PA. These classes' rebuilding came slightly earlier. The tipoff is that they're lettered in SK2a -- a scheme used from 1957 to 1960, and superseded by SK2b. IIRC, the date on most of them is 1958 (I need to check my slides, but those are interred deep in the basement at present). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 02:51:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich Orr (SUVCWORR@aol.com)writes: That may be until you examine the size of the rivet heads, the alignment of the stripes and the letter thickness and color of the lettering and striping. There is a distinct difference. I am not saying which is correct just that side-by-side there is a noticeable difference. Rich Orr Rich, I having been following the thread on the PCL as well and most guys bias are showing... Got any good ideas on how I can add rivets to the roof of my Branchline 8-1-2 as they need to be there. Just wanted to know if you have any suggestions... All this is very subjective... I guess we should just kick it all around until Bruce gives a report in TKM. The color will always be subjective but I think there was no objectionable difference between the BL and the WKW when I saw them in Naperville and the color of the lettering flowed real well with the WKW 10-5 in FOM, for both BL and WKW... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Pray for Bruce Smith Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:59:53 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dear friends, It is with much regret that I advise you that our very good friend and fellow PRR modeler Bruce Smith is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism. His wife, Tami emailed me this morning about his condition. The good news is it appears that he turned the corner yesterday afternoon and is on the road to recovery. The bad news is he will likely be in the hospital for the next 3-5 days (perhaps longer) and it is not very clear at all how much he will be able to do in the coming weeks. What a trooper he is, as he told Tami to contact me as I might be waiting for stuff from him for TKM and he wanted me to know it would be delayed and not sure for how long. Please join me in praying for Bruce's rapid recovery and return to his normal activities. Those wishing to send him a get well card, his address is: 642 Woody Drive Auburn, Al 36832-3400 Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 08:57:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, In the Make-up of Trains: New York Division, No. 19, April 29, 1950, Train 54 "Gotham Limited" has noted as the first car(s) in its consist: Exp. (Perishable) (x) Chicago-J. City Off at Hudson Cars listed with an (x) run when needed. The consist for Train 25 "The Metropolitan" in the same source does not list any Refrigerated Express cars in its consist. However, there is a listing for an "X29 (Papers) (x) J. City-Pittsburgh". I recall reading that Express Reefers were sometimes substituted for other cars when needed. The photo in Pennsy Power II on page 329, taken at North Philadelphia station, shows GG1 # 4880 in the single broad stripe paint scheme. The consist for the Metropolitan in the later 1950s may have been different. I don't have such later info. Bottom line, the PFE express car in the PP II photo may have been cut off before getting to the Hudson Tunnels. For people modelling PRR passenger train consists, we can still use those wooden express reefers on trains across the Pittsburgh, Middle, and Philadelphia Divisions, so long as the cars are destined for/originate at Harrisburg, Philadelphia or Jersey City. Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:59:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pray for Bruce Smith Dear friends, It is with much regret that I advise you that our very good friend and fellow PRR modeler Bruce Smith is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism. His wife, Tami emailed me this morning about his condition. The good news is it appears that he turned the corner yesterday afternoon and is on the road to recovery. The bad news is he will likely be in the hospital for the next 3-5 days (perhaps longer) and it is not very clear at all how much he will be able to do in the coming weeks. What a trooper he is, as he told Tami to contact me as I might be waiting for stuff from him for TKM and he wanted me to know it would be delayed and not sure for how long. Please join me in praying for Bruce's rapid recovery and return to his normal activities. Those wishing to send him a get well card, his address is: 642 Woody Drive Auburn, Al 36832-3400 Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:34:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/7/2004 2:51:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN writes: Rich Orr (SUVCWORR@aol.com)writes: That may be until you examine the size of the rivet heads, the alignment of the stripes and the letter thickness and color of the lettering and striping. There is a distinct difference. I am not saying which is correct just that side-by-side there is a noticeable difference. Rich Orr Rich, I having been following the thread on the PCL as well and most guys bias are showing... Geez Greg, If there was bias in my statement, I guess I have no concept of a non-commital unbias statement of observations. I did not name which model was which. I did not attribute the observed differences to either manufacturer. I did not state that either was perfect as neither is in my opinion. Just where is the bias? With the exception of the thickness and color of the letters at least on the cars in my hand, I would agree that the differences which I mentioned would not be noticeable in a moving train. One car has a very metalic gold color lettering and striping while the other appears to be more yellowish and less metalic. Or if you prefer gold leaf vs. Deluxe gold. Note: I am not saying either is right or wrong. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] MPP PRR Station & Section Houses Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:11:55 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, In Cinncinatti, there was a flyer in the model room for=20 Mountain Precision Products PRR station and section houses=20 due out June/July of 2004. I just looked at thier website=20 and see no sign of these products. Does anybody know what=20 happened? Thier website is www.mpp-models.com -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Update on Bruce Smith Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:41:36 -0500 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce Smith's wife, Tami, contacted me with an update last evening. He's quickly returning to normal. In her words... "Bruce was moved from the ICU to a cardiac step down unit. He is much more like himself today-being a smart mouth etc. " That's our Bruce! Please keep Bruce, Tami, and Briana in your thoughts. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 07:50:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: November 12-14 Multi-Layout Tour Slated From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One week out reminder: The Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR), an co-operative of model railroad layout owners in the southcentral Pennsylvania area, are pleased to announce their "First Annual SVMR Layout Tour" over the weekend of November 12-14. This first tour will feature 8 layouts over three days, most of them "operating" layouts. The public is invited to attend and children are welcome, provided that parents maintain a watchful eye over them. After all, November is Model Railroading Month! So if you are in the York-Lancaster-Harrisburg area, please look us up and consider attending one or more of the layouts on the tour. You can visit our web site where you can learn more about which layouts are open, maps to them, and more details about the layouts themselves. The site address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/ . Thank you... and we hope to meet some of you! (List relevance: Layouts on tour include PRR, Reading, and Conrail roads modeled; and many feature car cards, JMRI, Digitrax, and Soundtraxx systems.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] BLI K-4's Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:14:48 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi gang: Just went to BLI's website and noticed that the K-4's are now listed as = "In Stock" Larry Reynolds ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR Talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K-4's Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:47:25 -0500 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 8, 2004, at 6:14 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > Just went to BLI's website and noticed that the K-4's are now listed > as "In Stock" Yes, they started shipping to dealers this morning. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 17:42:15 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR Truc Train F30 article Cc: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Bruce Smith Update Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 06:46:31 -0500 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Update from this morning... Bruce continues to progress. He is off oxygen and his body is maintaining proper O2 levels. They want to thin his blood further before releasing him. Tami and Brianna (his daughter) seem to be doing well. Thanks for your continued thoughts... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:28:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Mountaineer X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/8/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: MPP PRR Station &Section Houses > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:11:55 -0500 > > Listers, > > In Cinncinatti, there was a flyer in the model room for > Mountain Precision Products PRR station and section houses > due out June/July of 2004. I just looked at thier website > and see no sign of these products. Does anybody know what > happened? > > Thier website is www.mpp-models.com > > -John > Send an email for current availability... Coached by PRRT&HS member Jon Barker of Cincinnati, Mountaineer brought out three kits this year: 1. three different Lines West watch boxes 2. a LW section house 3. a LW standard station I purchased one of each from their table at a train show in Cincinnati last month. Haven't gotten into one yet, so can't give you a review, but I've seen each kit built up by at least two different modelers, and they looked good. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:28:43 EST Subject: [PRR] X29 BX X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/4/04 1:14:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > But Ken, what's with that non-REA box car on the passenger train? What > about steam lines? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Jerry, if we're looking at the same picture, look closer at the boxcar number. That's a perfectly good four-digit number in one of the X29 (express version) number series. Be assured the car has steam lines. A number of these cars were painted in the SK2a phase lettering. However, you get points for good spotting -- the car in the picture is carrying full "interchange freight car" lettering, whereas more typically I believe this car in express service would not carry dimensional data. Or else in all the pix I've seen, the cars are too dirty for that lettering to show... When I first got back color slides of X29 BX's, you could not conclusively tell whether the base paint was red or green -- they were that filthy. You were lucky to see the reporting marks and the keystone. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Freight car consist question Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:35:24 +0000 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Mountaineer Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:47:20 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com At the Chicago Hobby show, Intermountain announced two series of PRR = section buildings to follow the two ATSF sets in their new line of laser = structures. No ETA to my knowledge. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: ; > In a message dated 11/8/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern = Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > Subject: MPP PRR Station &Section Houses > > From: "John Frantz" > > Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:11:55 -0500 > > > > Listers, > > > > In Cinncinatti, there was a flyer in the model room for > > Mountain Precision Products PRR station and section houses > > due out June/July of 2004. I just looked at thier website > > and see no sign of these products. Does anybody know what > > happened? > > > > Thier website is www.mpp-models.com > > > > -John > > > > Send an email for current availability... > > Coached by PRRT&HS member Jon Barker of Cincinnati, Mountaineer = brought out > three kits this year: > 1. three different Lines West watch boxes > 2. a LW section house > 3. a LW standard station ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 07:28:40 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Mountaineer In a message dated 11/8/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: MPP PRR Station &Section Houses > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:11:55 -0500 > > Listers, > > In Cinncinatti, there was a flyer in the model room for > Mountain Precision Products PRR station and section houses > due out June/July of 2004. I just looked at thier website > and see no sign of these products. Does anybody know what > happened? > > Thier website is www.mpp-models.com > > -John > Send an email for current availability... Coached by PRRT&HS member Jon Barker of Cincinnati, Mountaineer brought out three kits this year: 1. three different Lines West watch boxes 2. a LW section house 3. a LW standard station I purchased one of each from their table at a train show in Cincinnati last month. Haven't gotten into one yet, so can't give you a review, but I've seen each kit built up by at least two different modelers, and they looked good. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:55:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car consist question From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 08:35 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > As I was purchasing some HO scale freight cars this weekend, I > wondered about the general freight car consist on the Pennsylvania. I > know that unit trains such as coal on the eastern side of the railroad > would skew the overall consist towards hoppers. I also know that > individual trains would influence consists (FW-8, Man-O-War; > livestock). But what about freight cars in general? > > Have any of you developed a "rule of thumb" for freight cars including > box cars, reefers, gondolas, flats, hoppers, etc.? The era that I am > modeling is from the 1940's to 1960's. > > Any help that you can provide me would be greatly appreciated. > > If this topic was touched on before, let me know and I will search the > PRR-Talk archives. Ted, the Arranged Freight Schedules provide not only the schedules for symbol freights, but also block information. Often times the blocks give away what types of cars they contain. There is a 1952 Arranged Freight Schedule available for download from Keystone Crossings at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/ There is a 1954 one on the Merchandise Service CD #4. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:26:02 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car consist question Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:29:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car consist question From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 9, 2004, at 09:26 AM, Randy Williamson wrote: > Or check my web site out for 1955 Freight schedules: > > www.prr.trainstuffllc.com Yikes! Took me a while to navigate through the TrainStuff site to find the actual data! The direct URL is http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com/THROUGH%20FREIGHT%20INDEX.htm I'll ad a link from the KC page. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car consist question Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:17:56 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted Andrews asked: "Have any of you developed a "rule of thumb" for freight cars including box cars, reefers, gondolas, flats, hoppers, etc.? The era that I am modeling is from the 1940's to 1960's." Ted, Bruce Smith did a post back on 26 September 2003 that did a great job of answering your question. I've reposted it below. Additionally, I did a presentation at the Prototype Modeler's meet at Naperville two weeks ago on "Developing a Model Boxcar Fleet." A .pdf file of the handout is in the PRR-Modeling files section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/files/ A .pdf of the full presentation is available on request - please contact me OFF-LIST. Ben Hom On Friday, September 26, 2003, Bruce Smith wrote: Let me describe what I am doing, based on perhaps 20 different email conversations, especially on the Yehaw Steam Era Freight Car group, where Ted, and several other "gurus" of traffic hang out. I will try to relate this to the proposed 500 freight car fleet for my June 1944 layout. 1) Determine the ratio of "home" to "foreign cars. On the PRR, this was often around 50%. The snag is that this only covers the total. Hoppers were more likely 60-70%, gons around 50-60% and house cars may have been as low as 25-35%. On my layout, look for 250 PRR freight cars. 2) PRR car distributions. I have the top 30 classes from 1943, 1945 and 1955 posted at http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html. This is from a table in the Keystone Volume 7, Number 3, September 1974, copyright PRRT&HS, 1974. Almost every car is available in HO and I am well on my way to having the kits to build the PRR fleet. Note that you will need to decide the proportion of CRECO doors or Dreadnaught ends in your X29 subfleet, for example... 3) In general, the remainder of the car pool (box & flat) should consist of cars derived from the national pools according to their percentages. This data can be obtained by adding up the totals in the ORER for your modeling year(s), or if you are lucky, by searching the archives of the Steam era group and finding something close I have done this for reefers and flat cars and they are in the STMFC and PRR-talk archives. Note that hoppers have a more regionalized distribution, gons a modified regional distribution, and reefers and tank cars are a world unto themselves. For boxcars I use the following, provided by Tim Gilbert on the STMFC group: Region 1943 1946 1949 1952 1955 Total 100% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% New England 2.5 2.0 2.3 2.3 2.3 Great Lakes 18.1 18.5 18.3 18.7 17.6 Central East 18.1 18.3 16.4 16.2 16.4 Pocahontas 3.1 3.2 4.3 4.3 4.5 Southern 14.6 14.7 14.9 14.2 13.6 Northwest 16.6 16.7 16.4 15.4 15.3 Central West 19.3 18.9 18.6 19.9 20.9 Southwest 7.6 7.9 8.5 8.5 8.5 4) Now look at the percentages within each region owned by the major railroads. Assign Ted's list of signature cars, and investigate which car classes are appropriate for each road. I will need around 100 foreign box cars. The cars listed below with an asterix are from Ted's list. The remainder are either cars I have identified as being the major car, or that I have in my collection. In some cases, such as the UP cars, I've given you the fleet totals. New England 2.5% 1 New Haven - 36=92 rebuilt (F&C) 1 B&M - ARA SS (F&C) *? 1 MEC Great Lakes 18.1% 9 NYC (not PLE) 2 x USRA Steel * 50 ft single door (P2K) 2 Erie 1937 AAR, (Sun) * 50ft single door (P2K) 2 Wabash SS Autocar (Sunshine) * 1 GTW 1 NKP 1 DL&W - 1937 AAR (IMWX)* Central East 18.1% (REMOVED PRR) 5 B&O M53 Wagon top (West Shore) * 2 x M26 (X29 clone) * 1 RDG 1 CNJ 1 Monon 1 C&EI Pocahontas 3.1% 3 C&O USRA SS (Westerfield 3303) 1 N&W Southern 14.6% 4 Southern 1937 AAR (RC) * DS Autocar (Sunshine) * 36 ft truss rod (Westerfield) * 3Illinois Central 2 L&N 2 ACL 2 SAL B-3/4/5 ARA SS (F&C?)* AF-1 Round roof (Sun) Northwest 16.6% 4 Milwaukee 1-2 SS boxcar (Sunshine) * Rib side (Sunshine) * 3 GN DS boxcar (Sunshine) * 3 CN&W SS "short" (Sunshine) * 3 NP DS boxcar (Sunshine) * 1 Soo Central West 19.3% 5 AT&SF BX-11,12,13 SS (Westerfield) * 4 SP Cotton Belt DS (Sunshine) * B-50-13/14 (Sunshine) * B-50-15/16 (Sunshine) * 4 UP B-50-17 (Sunshine) (2282) B-50-19/21/23 (RC?) (3065) B-50-24/27 (Trix) (3357) B-50-32/33 (Sunshine) (2749) B-50-34/35 (PS-0, NEB&W) (50) 3 CB&Q 2 Rock Island Southwest 7.6% 3 Mo Pac Howe truss SS (Sunshine) * 2 SL&SF SS boxcar (Sunshine) * 1 TN&O 5) You will note that there are some "holes" left...the cars above do not add to 100. This gives you the flexibility to add in some unusual or "rare" cars, at the right mix. Some others from Ted's list are: CP minibox (F&C) * LV "wrong way" (Sunshine/F&C) * 6) Now, this isn't gonna do you a heck of a lot of good, if all you are running is coal trains so the cars have to fit the traffic pattern. For my layout, that is: Train type/Number of trains cars/Total Breakdown by reprting marks Tank car 2 30 60 UTLX SHPX other Reefer 1 30 30 PFE 6 SFRD 2 FGE 12 WFEX 6 BREX 2 other 2 Stock 1 30 30 PRR K7a 8 PRR K8 7 other 15 Coal 4 30 120 PRR 78 other 42 Merchandise 12 27 324 15 box 180 PRR 72 other 108 12 gon 120 PRR 64 other 56 2 flat 24 Hope this helps! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 first impressions Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 01:02:01 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One new feature of this loco is a "wand" for changing volume and reset = if necessary, activating a reed switch in the tender. Haven't had a = chance to play with it yet, but 3 of us puzzled over it for 15 minutes = and never figured out what it was. Then I did something radical = tonight---read the instruction book! I note the bell is a fast ringing sound. With no experience with the = prototype, I assume this is the sound of a powered bell. I know these = arrived early on Lines West, but don't know the timetable of adoption by = the fleet. The drivers measure to be about 79 inches by my crude calipers---better = than the 74 inches of the Spectrum by far and compare to the prototype = 80 inches (and may be exact if measured with a better instrument). Gone (at least on my model) is the slow turn-on of the headlight as the = generator winds up. Dynamo windup sound is there, but not the light = effect. Light does dim at rest or in reverse, as on previous models. Speaking of the light, installation of the headlight is possible, but = with complete absence of instructions, intuition is needed. To install = it, I first unplugged the bulb and its harness from the electrical = socket to get some maneuvering room. Then gently push the pins holding = the headlight casting to the smokebox front from behind to get it = started separating from the smokebox. Then gently pry it the rest of = the way with something like a screwdriver but one that won't scratch the = smokebox front. Thread the headlight wires through the smokebox front = openings at the top and into the headlight casting. Replace the = headlight casting by pressing the locator pins back into their "socket". = Push the bulb connector back into place, tuck the wires in, and gently = press on the smokebox front. The engine-tender electrical connector mounts differently, being = installed from the engine into the front bottom of the tender. I = haven't decided if I like it. I like having the male half on the = engine,but to me it was difficult to maneuver into place with the front = truck of the tender in the way. However, once in place, it seems fine. =20 The push-on mechanical connection from engine to tender is convenient = but seems like a "soft" connection. No way to adjust the engine-tender = distance that I can see, and to my eyes the distance is a little far. = Gonna check later.=20 Other BLI features are up to snuff. I run my locos first without sound = to check gear noise. Most of my small fleet have just a trace of gear = noise in reverse but run silent, run deep in forward. The K4 repeats = this pattern and of course even with my typical setting of overall sound = at 35 on the scale of 1 to 127 the sound easily masks out the little = noise there is in reverse. You will note I tend to notice the electrical-mechanical-performance and = gross dimensions first. I will leave it to the rivet counters to really = "mic" it. So do I like it? You bet. I have waited 50 years for a good = (non-brass) model of this standard locomotive of the "Standard Railroad = of the World". Although I should have the modern front end for my era, = I picked the classic hencoop pilot, unadorned smokebox front version = because it is a thing of beauty. Now to upgrade the fleet of PB70 and = PB70's to go with this new loco and the great new heavyweight Pullmans = in the pipeline. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:14:27 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I had earlier questioned what was interchanged at this location and if Reading engines brought cars to Margie Yard less than a half mile south. Bud Kaiser asked a person who worked North Philly tower and his response is attached. I thought the traffic interchanged was of sufficient interest and uniqueness to warrant sharing it with PRR-Talk. Norm Bell Norm, I spoke to Win Gross who worked the tower at North Philly in the 1957-58 time frame before he went to the PRR. He said that the interchange was limited to the interchange tracks and he never saw a Reading engine go to Margie Yard. He also said that the interchange was not a typical freight one but rather for cars that would normally be in a passenger consist. He said that cars like horse cars, hot mail, and other cars that needed to be interchanged quickly would take this route rather than going to other PRR/RDG interchanges (Belmont). Very little to no freight was interchanged here. Hope that this helps. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:14:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com PRR-talker Ken McCorry's layout is featured in this month's MR, as previously mentioned, but the Trains web site now has a video online at http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/477auocz.asp ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Early 1950s cabin cars Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:13:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I have been unable to find pictures or information online that answer the following questions. 1. In 1956, is it realistic to model that some cabin cars still had the darker Freight Car Color of the 1940s, or had all been uniformly painted the redder FCC by then? 2. What paint have you used to match the redder FCC? (Special oxide red is what I have used for the older color.) 3. The Bowser catalog shows N8 cabins with "Pennsylvania" above the Circle Keystone. Was the same true of the N5bs in the time before the Shadow Keystone theme appeared on all cabin cars? Thanks in advance. Tom Riggs > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:48:36 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8446@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading Thread-Index: AcTHL04OuV717M5YR6Gm/kPGhTSStwAv09Jw From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I remember that the Reading used to try to "pull a fast one" on the Pennsy. They would haul a Pennsy gondola loaded with steel from Harrisburg to Philadelphia, off load the steel in the Phila. area, and hand off the empty car to the PRR at Belmont Ave. so the PRR had to pay to haul the empty car back to Harrisburg. The interchange rules read that if you hauled a load in a foreign car you brought the empty back to the point where you received it. Sharp eyed PRR interchange people would catch them in this act, and I guess fines could be levied. This, of course, lead to freight car shortages at times. But that is my understanding of what the rules were. Bill V. (purveyor of useless trivia) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 9:14 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading I had earlier questioned what was interchanged at this location and if Reading engines brought cars to Margie Yard less than a half mile south. Bud Kaiser asked a person who worked North Philly tower and his response is attached. I thought the traffic interchanged was of sufficient interest and uniqueness to warrant sharing it with PRR-Talk. Norm Bell Norm, I spoke to Win Gross who worked the tower at North Philly in the 1957-58 time frame before he went to the PRR. He said that the interchange was limited to the interchange tracks and he never saw a Reading engine go to Margie Yard. He also said that the interchange was not a typical freight one but rather for cars that would normally be in a passenger consist. He said that cars like horse cars, hot mail, and other cars that needed to be interchanged quickly would take this route rather than going to other PRR/RDG interchanges (Belmont). Very little to no freight was interchanged here. Hope that this helps. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:16:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Early 1950s cabin cars MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom, 1. The earlier FCC had an brighter oranger color to it, not a darker color to it. It was the later 1950's that things started to get darker due to artifical pigments. There are plenty of color guides and color photos out there to get a better idea of time period colors. Of course, like they say, don't go 100% on color photos either due to the color of film variences. It should be close enough for our purposes anyway. 2. For earlier colors a good oxide color such as Poly Scale Zinc Chromate. Other people use a mix. It all depends on what YOU like. For the darker later red/brown colors try a mix of Tuscan and Brown. I been known to use a bit-o-black to get the color I need. 3. The Circle Keystone was an N8 item only. Although I do remember seeing an experimental circle keystone applied to another class. But that wasn't the norm. For earlier N5b's before the shadow keystone period they were painted and stenciled for the early lettering which was just a PENNSYLVANIA with line over top and the car number below that with a line below that with all other associated lettering in other areas. Again plenty of photos that show this........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: [PRR] Early 1950s cabin cars Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:39:48 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Hi Tom, > IIRC, there was some discussion on cabin cars and colors on PRR-Talk last > year. The archives are accessible from Jerry Britton's "Keystone Crossings" > site. > > Again, IIRC the conclusions were that - > 1) Although the Shadow Keystone scheme was applied to freight cars from late > 1954, it was not applied to cabin cars until at least (IIRC, Spring/Summer) > of 1955. (Perhaps a more knowledgeable member can be more definite, but I > doubt whether cabin cars were repainted more frequently than 3 years). > > 3) The N8 cars carried circle keystones. Only one N5 wore a circle > keystone. N5b/c cars did not. > > Sorry, I cannot help with color. > > "Caboose Data Book No.2 - Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island > Railroads" N.J.International, 1988 may be worth looking at. There is a > searchable database on individual > cabin cars on Jerry's site. > > Martin Skrzetuszewski > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TCJ Riggs > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:13 AM > Subject: [PRR] Early 1950s cabin cars > > > > All, > > > > I have been unable to find pictures or information online that answer the > > following questions. > > 1. In 1956, is it realistic to model that some cabin cars still had the > > darker Freight Car Color of the 1940s, or had all been uniformly painted > the > > redder FCC by then? > > 2. What paint have you used to match the redder FCC? (Special oxide red > is > > what I have used for the older color.) > > 3. The Bowser catalog shows N8 cabins with "Pennsylvania" above the Circle > > Keystone. Was the same true of the N5bs in the time before the Shadow > > Keystone theme appeared on all cabin cars? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Tom Riggs > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:08:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, One railroad could always deliver a car to its owner at the closest junction point with the owner, regardless of where it received it. Where reverse of the loaded movement came in would have been where the RDG received an ATSF car from the PRR at Harrisbrug and attempted to return it to the PRR at Belmont. In later years, under CSO 90, cars were "short routed" to owning roads, so that some lines had to handle empties on which they had no loaded movement. When I worked for the AN, we put the first "short line" deprescribed cars into service, and it was up to me to negotiate car hire with every other railroad in North America. I learned a lot about Car Service Rules doing that! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 7:48 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading >I remember that the Reading used to try to "pull a fast one" on the > Pennsy. They would haul a Pennsy gondola loaded with steel from > Harrisburg to Philadelphia, off load the steel in the Phila. area, and > hand off the empty car to the PRR at Belmont Ave. so the PRR had to pay > to haul the empty car back to Harrisburg. > > The interchange rules read that if you hauled a load in a foreign car > you brought the empty back to the point where you received it. Sharp > eyed PRR interchange people would catch them in this act, and I guess > fines could be levied. This, of course, lead to freight car shortages > at times. But that is my understanding of what the rules were. > > Bill V. (purveyor of useless trivia) > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > ndbprr@att.net > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 9:14 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] North Philadelphia Interchange with the Reading > > > I had earlier questioned what was interchanged at this location and if > Reading engines brought cars to Margie Yard less than a half mile south. > Bud Kaiser asked a person who worked North Philly tower and his response > is attached. I thought the traffic interchanged was of sufficient > interest and uniqueness to warrant sharing it with PRR-Talk. Norm Bell > > > Norm, > > I spoke to Win Gross who worked the tower at North Philly in the 1957-58 > time frame before he went to the PRR. He said that the interchange was > limited to the interchange tracks and he never saw a Reading engine go > to Margie Yard. He also said that the interchange was not a typical > freight one but rather for cars that would normally be in a passenger > consist. He said that cars like horse cars, hot mail, and other cars > that needed to be interchanged quickly would take this route rather than > going to other PRR/RDG interchanges (Belmont). Very little to no freight > was interchanged here. Hope that this helps. > > Bud > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Early 1950s cabin cars Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:46:19 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom, A timeline tracking the changes in PRR Cabin Car Paint Schemes is posted in the PRR-Modeling group files section at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/files/ Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:27:17 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] [PRR] X29 BX Rick Tipton wrote: "A number of these cars [X29 BX] were painted in the SK2a phase lettering. However, you get points for good spotting -- the car in the picture is carrying full "interchange freight car" lettering, whereas more typically I believe this car in express service would not carry dimensional data. Or else in all the pix I've seen, the cars are too dirty for that lettering to show..." Not true. Class X29 boxcars carried full interchange data, even after the switch over to Shadow Keystone schemes. On page 17 of PRR Color Guide 3, there is a photo of PRR 9553, freshly painted in SK2a being rerailed after a wreck. It clearly shows full interchange data stenciled on the car, though with a reduced capacity of 55000 lbs. Cars in the earlier CK scheme carried full interchange data as well. See my article on X29 BX in the April 2004 issue of TKM for more photos: http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/TKM_Images/Keystone_Modeler_NO09_files/TKM%20No.%209%2004-04%20PDF.pdf Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] X29 BX Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:27:17 +0000 From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:18:28 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Superheated steam In a message dated 11/11/04 5:14:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:10:09 EST > From: rrsounds@aol.com > Subject: Re: Super Heater? > > > As I understand it, when steam is created from water it expands (if not > contained) to what, roughly 1000x the volume of water that created it? (Is > this > only true at room temperature?) > > But - and I believe this also to be correct - steam can be returned to water > > with very little reduction in temperature or pressure. So when leaving the > boiler, wherever there is any drop in temperature in the piping that carries > it, > there comes a likelihood of turning steam back to water. > > Also, should the pressure of the steam drop, so will the temperature. So by > my reckoning there would normally, in a saturated-steam locomotive, be a bit > of > water created in the cylinders as the train operates, because after it has > done its work the piston moves to enlarge the cylinder volume, which creates > a > lower pressure, thus lower temperature, and when the pressure goes low > enough > the steam turns to water. > > Since water cannot compress, at least not nearly to the degree that steam > can, it makes an engine much less efficient when it gathers in the > cylinders. > Less efficient means more expensive and less reliable. > > It is my understanding that superheating very nearly eliminates water in the > > cylinders, by virtue of keeping the temperature of the steam way above that > which could easily be turned to water by a given amount of pressure > reduction. > > > Please feel free to poke holes in my explanation. > :-) > > David Reaves > PRRT&HS #2047 > David, Certainly, liquid water, being incompressible, can do a lot of mechanical mischief to pistons and other parts. Water vapor occupies about 1600 times the volume of liquid water -- at one atmosphere. This is not true in a locomotive boiler (at least until an explosion), as the evaporation is taking place under a couple hundred pounds of pressure -- and the steam is hotter than 212 Fahrenheit. The hotter steam is, the more work it can do. As steam is heated above the boiling point, it has more energy in it, and can maintain a higher pressure on the piston as it expands in the cylinder. (IIRC, a mechanical engineer measures this energy as enthalpy, a word you don't hear every day). Superheating allows the same steam to do even more work -- steam temperature goes up even higher. Add the extra efficiency of superheater tubes recovering more of the heat energy from the combustion gases in the boiler, and it was well worthwhile to add the extra equipment. In fact, it caused many "saturated" engines with D-valves to be converted to "superheated," so the difference in performance had to be large enough to motivate rebuilding. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:18:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Superheated steam X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/11/04 5:14:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:10:09 EST > From: rrsounds@aol.com > Subject: Re: Super Heater? > > > As I understand it, when steam is created from water it expands (if not > contained) to what, roughly 1000x the volume of water that created it? (Is > this > only true at room temperature?) > > But - and I believe this also to be correct - steam can be returned to water > > with very little reduction in temperature or pressure. So when leaving the > boiler, wherever there is any drop in temperature in the piping that carries > it, > there comes a likelihood of turning steam back to water. > > Also, should the pressure of the steam drop, so will the temperature. So by > my reckoning there would normally, in a saturated-steam locomotive, be a bit > of > water created in the cylinders as the train operates, because after it has > done its work the piston moves to enlarge the cylinder volume, which creates > a > lower pressure, thus lower temperature, and when the pressure goes low > enough > the steam turns to water. > > Since water cannot compress, at least not nearly to the degree that steam > can, it makes an engine much less efficient when it gathers in the > cylinders. > Less efficient means more expensive and less reliable. > > It is my understanding that superheating very nearly eliminates water in the > > cylinders, by virtue of keeping the temperature of the steam way above that > which could easily be turned to water by a given amount of pressure > reduction. > > > Please feel free to poke holes in my explanation. > :-) > > David Reaves > PRRT&HS #2047 > David, Certainly, liquid water, being incompressible, can do a lot of mechanical mischief to pistons and other parts. Water vapor occupies about 1600 times the volume of liquid water -- at one atmosphere. This is not true in a locomotive boiler (at least until an explosion), as the evaporation is taking place under a couple hundred pounds of pressure -- and the steam is hotter than 212 Fahrenheit. The hotter steam is, the more work it can do. As steam is heated above the boiling point, it has more energy in it, and can maintain a higher pressure on the piston as it expands in the cylinder. (IIRC, a mechanical engineer measures this energy as enthalpy, a word you don't hear every day). Superheating allows the same steam to do even more work -- steam temperature goes up even higher. Add the extra efficiency of superheater tubes recovering more of the heat energy from the combustion gases in the boiler, and it was well worthwhile to add the extra equipment. In fact, it caused many "saturated" engines with D-valves to be converted to "superheated," so the difference in performance had to be large enough to motivate rebuilding. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James McKeever" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:57:55 -0600 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, What would a typical power consist have been for the Broadway Limited = around 1960? Actual consist and paint scheme? Is there a web site = which might include such info? Thanks! Jim McKeever ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:06:12 -0500 To: "James McKeever" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 11, 2004, at 6:57 PM, James McKeever wrote: > What would a typical power consist have been for the Broadway Limited > around 1960? Actual consist and paint scheme? Is there a web site > which might include such info? E8A-E8A... maybe E8A-E7B-E8A. Other combinations, including E7A's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Mystery Photos Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:46:24 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Last month a posted a page of a few pictures online at my=20 website. This month I posted a series of three that are=20 relative unknowns. I can tell you that they were taken in=20 Electrified territory. Details are listed on the page. Visit at www.mountvernonshops.com/PRRPix2.html Also, at the bottom of the page is a color picture of an=20 ABA lashup of brand new FP&'s stopped at York, PA. Thanks for any help. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in O, HO & N Scale Brick Structures for the=20 Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] MOW yellow Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:29:58 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would anyone be so kind as to pass on to me what color they use for MOW = yellow. Please pass along your suggestions for an older car with faded = paint and a brand new repaint.=20 Also, I'm sure this has been discussed so forgive the repetitive = question, but is the Tichy 125 ton crane a good match for what would = have been used on the PRR? Thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:58:14 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 From: Frederick Ripley Cc: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Bruce Smith Update Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:28:02 -0500 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com It was hoped that Bruce would be released yesterday, but that was not to be. Tami tells me that "The good news is it appears that neither Bruce's lungs or heart have been damaged. The bad news is that the earlist they will release Bruce will be Saturday since he still does not have theraputic levels of coumidan(spelling?) -- a blood thinner circulating in his blood." Please keep Bruce and his family in your thoughts. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:43:15 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7485C513B@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 Thread-Index: AcTIc85rDHk94aCGT32BYu/UmoO9oQAQN8RA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Frederick Ripley" , "James McKeever" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The answer to your question is simple. At Harrisburg: The next three unit lashup of E-7s/E-8s available off the pit. At Chicago: The next three unit lashup of E-7s E-8s with the steam generators in working order. If there was a three unit E-8 available, that might have taken preference since the E-8s had two steam generators, whereas the E-7s only had one. At Sunnyside: The next GG-1 off the pit. At Harrisburg eastbound" The next GG-1 off the pit. Since the Gs only had one steam generator, if it failed, the show was over. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:58 PM To: James McKeever; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 > What would a typical power consist have been for the Broadway Limited around > 1960? Actual consist and paint scheme? Is there a web site which might > include such info? Jim, Below is a "Broadway" consist from 1959, that I had saved from another e-group. From photos, it seems that 3 E's were the standard from late 50's- through mid 60's. And, in the photos I have seen from that era, it seems 3 E8's were the standard; I can only think of one shot with an E7 in the lash-up. Fred R. #29, 1959: PRR: number unknown Railway Post Office PRR: Imperial Vale 4-compartment, 4-double-bedroom,2-drawing-room car PRR: Fishing Rapids 10-roomette, 6-double-bedroom car PRR: Chartiers Creek 12-duplex-single-room, 4-double bedroom car PRR: Imperial Lea 4-compartment, 4-double-bedroom, 2-drawing-room car PRR: Catalpa Falls 6-double-bedroom lounge car* (*substitute Harbor car) PRR: 4620 dining-room car PRR: 4621 Kitchen-dormitory car PRR: Imperial Trees 4-compartment, 4-double-bedroom, 2-drawing-room car PRR: Conestoga Rapids 10-roomette, 6-double-bedroom car PRR: Chippewa Creek 12-duplex-single room, 4-double-bedroom car PRR: Clarion Rapids 10-roomette, 6-double-bedroom car PRR: Muskegon Rapids 10 roomette, 6-double-bedroom car PRR: Mountain View 2-master-room, 1-double-bedroom, lounge-observation car ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:00:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MOW yellow MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Kris, When I built my Westerield XL cars, (both the work cars and wreck cars), I used Testors Model Masters Chrome Yellow. That gave it a color that was not new but slightly worn. I could have added a little bit of white to further fade if I wanted that look. After I had applied that Chrome Yellow I slightly weathered the cars with grime instead. Here are the results: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work1.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work2.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work3.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work4.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work5.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work6.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work7.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/work8.jpg Just recenty for a customer I had to model a fantasy piece. I took the new Walthers Troop Sleeper or Kitchen Car and placed a Bowser N5 Cabin car cupola off centered to one end on the roof. Kinda had the flavor of the PRR. I painted that car using Poly Scale Railbox Yellow. This may be the correct link if not I can post in a second email. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/troop.JPG Looked OK to me color wise but thats about it.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:09:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MOW yellow MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Kris, Shucks, I knew I would guess that link wrong. Here is the corrected link to the fantasy piece: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/troopmow.JPG ........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] MOW yellow Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:12:22 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:19:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 8th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Assessment Survey - From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <2F5A52B0-34BE-11D9-9132-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please respond OFF-LIST to jerry@pennsyrr.com . Please put your modeled scale in the SUBJECT after the dash. It's that time of year again, folks! Time to vote for the three models you would like to see produced in your scale in several categories. Only the first three entries in each category will be counted. Others will be discarded. If you know the PRR class for an item, use it (ex. EP22). Otherwise use the manufacturer's model (ex. EMD E8). Following your answer, feel free to indicate if you would purchase this item in quantity, accept brass as an acceptable model, etc. Ballots are open through 5 p.m., Friday, November 19th. I will then summarize the results. Each year many of our top requests make it to the assembly line. 2004 has been a great year for Pennsy and it looks to continue that way into 2005. You can view last years results in the list archives ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ ). Search for "Survey Results" and scroll down to 11/22/03 to a post by me. And now, the ballot: ---------------------------------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (If desiring MP-series variants, please put under passenger equipment as the PRR carried these on the passenger roster.) 1. 2. 3. DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. STRUCTURES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. OTHER DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. Thank you for your participation! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:50:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello, My father conducted the BROADWAY on the old MIDDLE DIVISION between Altoona and Harrisburg, I am fortunate that he saved his 220 (consist) reports. The BROADWAY routinely had 3 E8A units as its road power. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <4FB9392F-357B-11D9-A09C-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:52:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Had the first road test of the new BLI K4 last night. A few notes, with more to come... First note is that the tender is a brick! It weighs nearly as much as the loco! I will provide weights later, unless someone beats me to it. The unit comes without the front of the smokebox applied. Instead there is a big plastic plug in its place. With a little thinking, you can see why. It's not to protect the front of the smokebox. Rather, it creates a standoff between the boiler and the foam packing so as to insure an air space around the pilot detail to protect it. There are no instructions as to its removal, and it took a few moments to figure it out. It does not twist off, and rocking it top to bottom doesn't work. You have to rock it side to side and then it will pop off. Then you insert the smokebox front cover plate. Then it was off to an open house at Nick Kulp's Cornwall Railroad where the unit was test run... As previously noted, there is a new method of connecting the tender to the loco. Mine came apart a few times in tight yard quarters, but had no issues on the main. May have been a fluke, for reasons noted later... There are two small "eyes" on the back of the cab. Through these eyes pass pins on the ends of the floor panel that bridges from the cab to the tender. I backed the loco through a turnout and next thing I knew the floor plate was lying on the benchwork. An inspection showed that the turnout was too tight and the corner of the tender actually hinged tight against the corner of the cab and broke it off!!! (more later) The rear tender truck was also derailing a lot. (more later) Hooked up to a 10 car heavyweight passenger train. The K4 pulled it effortlessly! Started nice and smooth and had absolutely no issues with the load. Was running at prototypic speeds with a speed setting of 24 on Digitrax. We had some coupler issues in the consist and had to remove two cars. But with 8 cars the K4 continued to run effortlessly at a relatively low speed setting, including on a slight grade. (Nick's layout doesn't have any steep grades.) Didn't have an opportunity to add more cars, but I honestly think that on this level layout the K4 could have pulled 15-18 cars... maybe even 20. Yes, I'm serious, it was that good! After pulling the unit at the end of the visit, I made two observations: 1) The turnouts where the tender caught the corner of the cab were revealed to be only #4's. Hey, should anything be expected to work smoothly over a #4? Yikes! Can't blame that on the K4 with its prototypical close coupling. 2) The derailments of the rear tender truck was caused by a minor, correctable design flaw. The coupler box has "ears" on it that restrict turning of the rear truck substantially. I believe that by trimming off these ears that the problem will be resolved. My test unit will see action on Jeff Warner's layout on Tuesday evening. It will definitely get a good test on grades there, and perhaps Jeff will let us put it on a freight train just for the sake of seeing what kind of load it can actually pull. Th K4, no contest, is the strongest puller BLI has released yet. I know in some cases that may not be saying much, but this is a rock solid release!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:05:19 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, did you have the traction tire installed? I didn't get a chance to take mine out for a spin with a load as it was formal operations night at the club and I drew two peddler freights. And this weekend is Trainfest here in Milwaukee so won't get to try it for another few days :-(. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > Hooked up to a 10 car heavyweight passenger train. The K4 pulled it > effortlessly! Started nice and smooth and had absolutely no issues with > the load. Was running at prototypic speeds with a speed setting of 24 > on Digitrax. We had some coupler issues in the consist and had to > remove two cars. But with 8 cars the K4 continued to run effortlessly > at a relatively low speed setting, including on a slight grade. (Nick's > layout doesn't have any steep grades.) Didn't have an opportunity to > add more cars, but I honestly think that on this level layout the K4 > could have pulled 15-18 cars... maybe even 20. Yes, I'm serious, it was > that good! > > After pulling the unit at the end of the visit, I made two observations: > > 1) The turnouts where the tender caught the corner of the cab were > revealed to be only #4's. Hey, should anything be expected to work > smoothly over a #4? Yikes! Can't blame that on the K4 with its > prototypical close coupling. > > 2) The derailments of the rear tender truck was caused by a minor, > correctable design flaw. The coupler box has "ears" on it that restrict > turning of the rear truck substantially. I believe that by trimming off > these ears that the problem will be resolved. > > My test unit will see action on Jeff Warner's layout on Tuesday > evening. It will definitely get a good test on grades there, and > perhaps Jeff will let us put it on a freight train just for the sake of > seeing what kind of load it can actually pull. > > Th K4, no contest, is the strongest puller BLI has released yet. I know > in some cases that may not be saying much, but this is a rock solid > release!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Warren Dewees" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:19:54 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75.1, clamav-milter version 0.75c on 127.0.0.1 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I remember seeing pictures with an Alco PB spliced between 2 E-units in passenger service. Don't remember if they were with E7's or E8's, or what train they were pulling. Warren ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: "James McKeever" ; Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited 1960 > >> What would a typical power consist have been for the Broadway Limited >> around >> 1960? Actual consist and paint scheme? Is there a web site which might >> include such info? > > > Jim, > > Below is a "Broadway" consist from 1959, that I had saved from another > e-group. From photos, it seems that 3 E's were the standard from late > 50's- > through mid 60's. And, in the photos I have seen from that era, it seems > 3 E8's were the standard; I can only think of one shot with an E7 in the > lash-up. > > Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] BLI K-4 Basic Question Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:30:30 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry and PRR Listers: I am anxiously awaiting my K-4s from Jerry. I do have a basic question = regarding the "unlettered" version. Is this version painted but has no = lettering on the cab and tender or is it completely unpainted = altogether? Thanks in advance the answer! Ted M. Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car consist question Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 12:37:05 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, Randy, Ben and the List: Thank you very much for the information and guidance on my question. It = is true that there are train consists on the www that list off blocking = information for a particular train. While some of the consist = information can be specific, many times it is not. Hence, my question = was pretty vague. I think that the file that Ben Hom referenced on the = PRR-Modeling Yahoo group is giving me the guidance that I am looking = for. It looks like I am "light" on wooden boxcars, reefers, and gondolas!=20 Once again, thank you for your responses and information! Ted Andrews (now working on the interlocking plant at Hamlet, Indiana on the Ft. = Wayne Line!)=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: b.hom@att.net=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com = ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight car consist question Ted Andrews asked:=20 "Have any of you developed a "rule of thumb" for freight cars = including box=20 cars, reefers, gondolas, flats, hoppers, etc.? The era that I am = modeling is=20 from the 1940's to 1960's."=20 Ted, Bruce Smith did a post back on 26 September 2003 that did a great = job of=20 answering your question. I've reposted it below. Additionally, I did a = presentation at the Prototype Modeler's meet at Naperville two weeks = ago on=20 "Developing a Model Boxcar Fleet." A .pdf file of the handout is in = the=20 PRR-Modeling files section at=20 = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/files/=20 A .pdf of the full presentation is available on request - please = contact me=20 OFF-LIST.=20 Ben Hom On Friday, September 26, 2003, Bruce Smith wrote:=20 Let me describe what I am doing, based on perhaps 20 different email=20 conversations, especially on the Yehaw Steam Era Freight Car group, = where Ted,=20 and several other "gurus" of traffic hang out. I will try to relate = this to the=20 proposed 500 freight car fleet for my June 1944 layout.=20 1) Determine the ratio of "home" to "foreign cars. On the PRR, this = was often=20 around 50%. The snag is that this only covers the total. Hoppers were = more=20 likely 60-70%, gons around 50-60% and house cars may have been as low = as 25-35%.=20 On my layout, look for 250 PRR freight cars.=20 2) PRR car distributions. I have the top 30 classes from 1943, 1945 = and 1955=20 posted at = http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html.=20 This is from a table in the Keystone Volume 7, Number 3, September = 1974,=20 copyright PRRT&HS, 1974. Almost every car is available in HO and I am = well on=20 my way to having the kits to build the PRR fleet. Note that you will = need to=20 decide the proportion of CRECO doors or Dreadnaught ends in your X29 = subfleet,=20 for example...=20 3) In general, the remainder of the car pool (box & flat) should = consist of=20 cars derived from the national pools according to their percentages. = This data=20 can be obtained by adding up the totals in the ORER for your modeling = year(s),=20 or if you are lucky, by searching the archives of the Steam era group = and=20 finding something close I have done this for reefers and flat cars and = they=20 are in the STMFC and PRR-talk archives. Note that hoppers have a more=20 regionalized distribution, gons a modified regional distribution, and = reefers=20 and tank cars are a world unto themselves. For boxcars I use the = following,=20 provided by Tim Gilbert on the STMFC group:=20 Region 1943 1946 1949 1952 1955=20 Total 100% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0%=20 New England 2.5 2.0 2.3 2.3 2.3=20 Great Lakes 18.1 18.5 18.3 18.7 17.6=20 Central East 18.1 18.3 16.4 16.2 16.4=20 Pocahontas 3.1 3.2 4.3 4.3 4.5=20 Southern 14.6 14.7 14.9 14.2 13.6=20 Northwest 16.6 16.7 16.4 15.4 15.3=20 Central West 19.3 18.9 18.6 19.9 20.9=20 Southwest 7.6 7.9 8.5 8.5 8.5=20 4) Now look at the percentages within each region owned by the major = railroads.=20 Assign Ted's list of signature cars, and investigate which car classes = are=20 appropriate for each road. I will need around 100 foreign box cars. = The cars=20 listed below with an asterix are from Ted's list. The remainder are = either cars=20 I have identified as being the major car, or that I have in my = collection. In=20 some cases, such as the UP cars, I've given you the fleet totals.=20 New England 2.5%=20 1 New Haven - 36=3D92 rebuilt (F&C)=20 1 B&M - ARA SS (F&C) *?=20 1 MEC=20 Great Lakes 18.1%=20 9 NYC (not PLE)=20 2 x USRA Steel *=20 50 ft single door (P2K)=20 2 Erie=20 1937 AAR, (Sun) *=20 50ft single door (P2K)=20 2 Wabash=20 SS Autocar (Sunshine) *=20 1 GTW=20 1 NKP=20 1 DL&W - 1937 AAR (IMWX)*=20 Central East 18.1% (REMOVED PRR)=20 5 B&O=20 M53 Wagon top (West Shore) *=20 2 x M26 (X29 clone) *=20 1 RDG=20 1 CNJ=20 1 Monon=20 1 C&EI=20 Pocahontas 3.1%=20 3 C&O=20 USRA SS (Westerfield 3303)=20 1 N&W=20 Southern 14.6%=20 4 Southern=20 1937 AAR (RC) *=20 DS Autocar (Sunshine) *=20 36 ft truss rod (Westerfield) *=20 3Illinois Central=20 2 L&N=20 2 ACL=20 2 SAL=20 B-3/4/5 ARA SS (F&C?)*=20 AF-1 Round roof (Sun)=20 Northwest 16.6%=20 4 Milwaukee=20 1-2 SS boxcar (Sunshine) *=20 Rib side (Sunshine) *=20 3 GN=20 DS boxcar (Sunshine) *=20 3 CN&W=20 SS "short" (Sunshine) *=20 3 NP=20 DS boxcar (Sunshine) *=20 1 Soo=20 Central West 19.3%=20 5 AT&SF=20 BX-11,12,13 SS (Westerfield) *=20 4 SP=20 Cotton Belt DS (Sunshine) *=20 B-50-13/14 (Sunshine) *=20 B-50-15/16 (Sunshine) *=20 4 UP=20 B-50-17 (Sunshine) (2282)=20 B-50-19/21/23 (RC?) (3065)=20 B-50-24/27 (Trix) (3357)=20 B-50-32/33 (Sunshine) (2749)=20 B-50-34/35 (PS-0, NEB&W) (50)=20 3 CB&Q=20 2 Rock Island=20 Southwest 7.6%=20 3 Mo Pac=20 Howe truss SS (Sunshine) *=20 2 SL&SF=20 SS boxcar (Sunshine) *=20 1 TN&O=20 5) You will note that there are some "holes" left...the cars above do = not add to=20 100. This gives you the flexibility to add in some unusual or "rare" = cars, at=20 the right mix. Some others from Ted's list are:=20 CP minibox (F&C) *=20 LV "wrong way" (Sunshine/F&C) *=20 6) Now, this isn't gonna do you a heck of a lot of good, if all you = are running=20 is coal trains so the cars have to fit the traffic pattern. For my = layout,=20 that is:=20 Train type/Number of trains cars/Total Breakdown by reprting marks Tank car 2 30 60=20 UTLX=20 SHPX=20 other=20 Reefer 1 30 30=20 PFE 6=20 SFRD 2=20 FGE 12=20 WFEX 6=20 BREX 2=20 other 2=20 Stock 1 30 30=20 PRR K7a 8=20 PRR K8 7=20 other 15=20 Coal 4 30 120=20 PRR 78 other 42 Merchandise 12 27 324=20 15 box 180=20 PRR 72=20 other 108=20 12 gon 120=20 PRR 64=20 other 56=20 2 flat 24=20 Hope this helps!=20 Happy Rails=20 Bruce=20 Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.=20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center=20 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)=20 = http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edmund Lee Burbage" Subject: [PRR] Question for the List Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:04:54 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know the color that the Pullman Co. painted their cars in = (The Shade of Green) and or the brand paint they used also? The NRHS Chapter I belong to at Parksley, Va. has The DIPLOMAT and we = want to get it repainted in the original color and Gold Lettering if = indeed the Pullman Co. used a Gold Lettering or just paint for the = PULLMAN Name on the side of the car. Any help would be deeply appreciated. Email me at leeswitchkey@mchsi.com Lee Burbage Co-Editor of the Delmarva Limited News Letter. PRRT&HS 1943 RT&HS No. Unk. Thank you so very much. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K-4 Basic Question Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 17:08:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The unlettered version is painted the same as the other K4's. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI K-4 Basic Question Jerry and PRR Listers: I am anxiously awaiting my K-4s from Jerry. I do have a basic question regarding the "unlettered" version. Is this version painted but has no lettering on the cab and tender or is it completely unpainted altogether? Thanks in advance the answer! Ted M. Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] Microscale PRR decals... Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:40:55 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello list ,=20 I was wondering if any of you could suggest a hobby store that has a = stock of Microscale decals . I am presently repainting / decaling a ABA = set of "O" scale PA's . My local store in Pittsburgh got me two sets but = said Walthers is Temp Out Of Stock . I am hoping to find a set of decals = in stock somewere . The set is # 48-93 Five strip PA's .=20 Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:32:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K-4 Basic Question X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How does the BLI K4 compare to the brass PFM K4's in terms of detail? Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Oerm2133@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:59:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale PRR decals... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Quickest way might be to contact Microscale directly. http://www.microscale.com/catalog_results.mv Don Luke Lower Arizona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:24:15 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] Intermeountain FP7's X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi guys, Has there been any news from Intermountain on the release of th= e FP 7's? Us impatient folks would like to know. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermeountain FP7's Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:34:32 -0500 To: "sjlash" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 13, 2004, at 8:24 PM, sjlash wrote: > Hi guys, Has there been any news from Intermountain on the release of > the FP 7's? Us impatient folks would like to know. Jim Part numbers were issued to dealers several weeks ago so that reservations may be placed. They will be in Tuscan Five-Stripe, in four road numbers, with or without factory-installed sound. It is NOT a QSI sound system. Contact your dealer for reservations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Oerm2133@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:57:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermeountain FP7's X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jim wrote: > Hi guys,=A0 Has there been any news from Intermountain on the release of=20 > the FP 7's?=A0 Us impatient folks would like to know.=A0=20 Jerry responded: > Part numbers were issued to dealers several weeks ago so that=20 > reservations may be placed. > They will be in Tuscan Five-Stripe, in four road numbers, with or=20 > without factory-installed sound. It is NOT a QSI sound system. If not QSI, Tsunami maybe?? Would like to see some actual pictures of the Intermountain FP7 before committing to several. Don Lower Arizona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermeountain FP7's Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:07:37 -0500 To: Oerm2133@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 13, 2004, at 8:57 PM, Oerm2133@aol.com wrote: > > > They will be in Tuscan Five-Stripe, in four road numbers, with or > > without factory-installed sound. It is NOT a QSI sound system. > > If not QSI, Tsunami maybe?? > Would like to see some actual pictures of the Intermountain FP7 > before committing to several. No. InterMountain hasn't briefed dealers on the particulars yet, but Marty McGuirk indicates "it is a new, InterMountain system". They also plan to eventually release a sound option for N scale locos (unpowered units). My recollection is that it was at the iHobby expo in October that they went public with this information. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermeountain FP7's Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:15:31 -0500 To: Oerm2133@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 13, 2004, at 8:57 PM, Oerm2133@aol.com wrote: > Would like to see some actual pictures of the Intermountain FP7 > before committing to several. The trains.com site has photos... http://www.trains.com/Utilities/get_galleryfile.asp?idOLG={EF8FF976- A0A9-4933-B767-F8DD9F4FB2F2}1 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Update on Bruce Snmith's Condition Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:33:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Message-Flag: Follow up Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, I received this message from Bruce this morning. Certainly excellent news. PTL! Al =========================== Hi all, First, thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers! Now for an update - I was released from the hospital this morning, and you can only imagine how happy I am to be home! For a "near-death experience" I appear to be remarkably unscathed. I am easily fatigued, and it will take a few weeks to get back up to normal speed, but it appears that the use of the clot buster TPA may have saved most of the infarcted lung tissue. I am COVERED in bruises, but they look worse than they are, with the excpetion of my right wrist, where I was stuck for arterial blood gases and which subsequently bled into my wrist. Hurt like the dickens!! It is still very tender, but with continued hot compresses, it feels better every day. The bruise there stretches from the base of the thumb over 1/2 way up my forearm, and is an interesting purple/green/yellow at this point. I'm glad to be here to tell the tale... Regards Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 08:57:13 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR PA O Scale Decals X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lost the original posting for Microscale Ind's 48-93 decal set. Caboose Hobbies has them listed in stock. Their O scale stock is usually two sets per item so email them to find out how many they have in stock. www.caboosehobbies.com Also, Microscale sells direct. http://www.microscale.com/ Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SD45Bob@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:28:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, did you have the traction tire installed? I didn't get a chance to take mine out for a spin with a load as it was formal operations night at the club and I drew two peddler freights. And this weekend is Trainfest here in Milwaukee so won't get to try it for another few days :-(. I had the chance to run my K 4 yesterday and here are the results. I did not use the traction tired driver just to see what the non traction tired model would do. It pulled one Walther's R50b, 2 Bethlehem Car Works B60b baggage cars and six Centralia car shops P85 coach's. It pulled all of the cars very easily, it only had a slight problem at moderate speeds on one hill on my friends layout due to two factors. The layout I am running on is not a large RR and some factors had to be compensated for to get what my friend wanted on his RR. One being that there was a thirty-ish radius curve at the bottom of the hill and that was probably the main reason the grade on the hill is only a one point eight or so percent grade. I think it would have made it up that grade easily if the curve was not at the bottom. If I boosted the speed up a couple more notches (NCE DCC) it made it up without slipping. So I think it will pull more cars on a more spacious layout. I had planned on cutting the ears of the Kadee box when I first was checking out the model when I picked it up from my RR equipment supplier. One thing I noticed is that the reed switch is not in the location the instructions say it is. It is located closer to the water hatch than the coal bunker slope sheet where the instructions show it as being. It definitely is better the Batchmann K4. Bob Meier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:40:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry and all: I picked up two BLI K-4's yesterday and have a few additional comments. Oh boy, can they pull! I hooked one of them to the point of a 12 car, brass, "Liberty Limited", thinking "no way" and the locomotive pulled the train very nicely. I didn't try it up the hill as I am sure it wouldn't make it. I did, however, double head the two with the same train, and they pulled the heavy train, effortlessly, up the East Slope. I had the same problem that Jerry had with the tender deck. My belief is that it came loose in handling, but I was lucky to find it right away. On of the little brackets that hold the deck also came off. This is a lot harder to find then the deck. I was really lucky that it landed on the workbench and all is fixed. A word of caution when assembling the tender to the loco. The drawbar has a forked spade on the end that snaps into a round pin, about 1/4 inch in diameter. Do NOT exert too much force in doing this. If the drawbar is not properly positioned when pushing the engine and tender together, you may get a false sense that tells you it's a tight fit that requires more force then necessary. That's right,....I broke it!!! One of the tines broke off. If positioned correctly, the force required is minimal. Needles to say, I was more careful with the second engine. Having said all that, the damage may have been a blessing in disguise. I fixed the problem by drilling and tapping a 2-56 hole in the tender floor, cutting the other tine of the fork off and drilling a clearance hole through the drawbar. This arrangement works very well. I'm not real happy with the manufacturer's drawbar design, as I feel the engine and tender may come detached from time to time. The pin method is a lot more reliable, and I may do the same thing to the other engine. I had no derailments or other similar problems. The engines ran very smoothly, even when MU'd. All and all, I feel these are great engines. I'm so impressed that I've already ordered a third for passenger helper service. Did I mention that the exhaust "bark" is better then previous BLI engines? There is a distinct reverberation that takes the sound to a new level. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:52 AM Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions > Had the first road test of the new BLI K4 last night. A few notes, with > more to come... > > First note is that the tender is a brick! It weighs nearly as much as the > loco! I will provide weights later, unless someone beats me to it. > > The unit comes without the front of the smokebox applied. Instead there is > a big plastic plug in its place. With a little thinking, you can see why. > It's not to protect the front of the smokebox. Rather, it creates a > standoff between the boiler and the foam packing so as to insure an air > space around the pilot detail to protect it. There are no instructions as > to its removal, and it took a few moments to figure it out. It does not > twist off, and rocking it top to bottom doesn't work. You have to rock it > side to side and then it will pop off. Then you insert the smokebox front > cover plate. > > Then it was off to an open house at Nick Kulp's Cornwall Railroad where > the unit was test run... > > As previously noted, there is a new method of connecting the tender to the > loco. Mine came apart a few times in tight yard quarters, but had no > issues on the main. May have been a fluke, for reasons noted later... > > There are two small "eyes" on the back of the cab. Through these eyes pass > pins on the ends of the floor panel that bridges from the cab to the > tender. I backed the loco through a turnout and next thing I knew the > floor plate was lying on the benchwork. An inspection showed that the > turnout was too tight and the corner of the tender actually hinged tight > against the corner of the cab and broke it off!!! (more later) > > The rear tender truck was also derailing a lot. (more later) > > Hooked up to a 10 car heavyweight passenger train. The K4 pulled it > effortlessly! Started nice and smooth and had absolutely no issues with > the load. Was running at prototypic speeds with a speed setting of 24 on > Digitrax. We had some coupler issues in the consist and had to remove two > cars. But with 8 cars the K4 continued to run effortlessly at a relatively > low speed setting, including on a slight grade. (Nick's layout doesn't > have any steep grades.) Didn't have an opportunity to add more cars, but I > honestly think that on this level layout the K4 could have pulled 15-18 > cars... maybe even 20. Yes, I'm serious, it was that good! > > After pulling the unit at the end of the visit, I made two observations: > > 1) The turnouts where the tender caught the corner of the cab were > revealed to be only #4's. Hey, should anything be expected to work > smoothly over a #4? Yikes! Can't blame that on the K4 with its > prototypical close coupling. > > 2) The derailments of the rear tender truck was caused by a minor, > correctable design flaw. The coupler box has "ears" on it that restrict > turning of the rear truck substantially. I believe that by trimming off > these ears that the problem will be resolved. > > My test unit will see action on Jeff Warner's layout on Tuesday evening. > It will definitely get a good test on grades there, and perhaps Jeff will > let us put it on a freight train just for the sake of seeing what kind of > load it can actually pull. > > Th K4, no contest, is the strongest puller BLI has released yet. I know in > some cases that may not be saying much, but this is a rock solid > release!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:47:50 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA O Scale Decals From: Subject: [PRR] PRR PA O Scale Decals From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] B60B Photograph Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:16:20 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am looking for a good color photograph of a B60B, as well as any photograph of B60B 9288. Reward for best photo submitted! Bennett Levin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:25:07 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Agree with you on the exhaust. And at first I thought it was just me, but fellow club members commented on the great whistle sound as well. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Reynolds" Did I mention that > the exhaust "bark" is better then previous BLI engines? There is a distinct > reverberation that takes the sound to a new level. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 10:28:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60B Photograph MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bennett, There is a nice clean shot in PRR Color Guide 3, page 14 of a B60b, (center photo) of 9374. .......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:33:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update on Bruce Snmith's Condition Folks, I received this message from Bruce this morning. Certainly excellent news. PTL! Al =========================== Hi all, First, thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers! Now for an update - I was released from the hospital this morning, and you can only imagine how happy I am to be home! For a "near-death experience" I appear to be remarkably unscathed. I am easily fatigued, and it will take a few weeks to get back up to normal speed, but it appears that the use of the clot buster TPA may have saved most of the infarcted lung tissue. I am COVERED in bruises, but they look worse than they are, with the excpetion of my right wrist, where I was stuck for arterial blood gases and which subsequently bled into my wrist. Hurt like the dickens!! It is still very tender, but with continued hot compresses, it feels better every day. The bruise there stretches from the base of the thumb over 1/2 way up my forearm, and is an interesting purple/green/yellow at this point. I'm glad to be here to tell the tale... Regards Bruce ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:35:33 -0500 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 14, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > Oh boy, can they pull! I hooked one of them to the point of a 12 car, > brass, "Liberty Limited", thinking "no way" and the locomotive pulled > the train very nicely. I didn't try it up the hill as I am sure it > wouldn't make it. I did, however, double head the two with the same > train, and they pulled the heavy train, effortlessly, up the East > Slope. Knowing what that train looks like, and your layout, I was salivating as I read this!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:08:38 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermeountain FP7's From: John Sheets From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:45:15 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob: I didn't detect a difference in the basic whistle sound from the previous locomotives. There is a different "lilt" if you release, press and release the whistle function. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Zoeller" To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions > Agree with you on the exhaust. And at first I thought it was just me, but > fellow club members commented on the great whistle sound as well. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Reynolds" Did I mention that >> the exhaust "bark" is better then previous BLI engines? There is a > distinct >> reverberation that takes the sound to a new level. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:38:03 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Larry: Any better at getting a "short toot" than the older ones? Jeff Larry Reynolds wrote: > Bob: > > I didn't detect a difference in the basic whistle sound from the > previous locomotives. There is a different "lilt" if you release, > press and release the whistle function. > > Larry > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Zoeller" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:25 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions > > >> Agree with you on the exhaust. And at first I thought it was just me, >> but >> fellow club members commented on the great whistle sound as well. >> >> Bob Zoeller >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Reynolds" Did I mention that >> >>> the exhaust "bark" is better then previous BLI engines? There is a >> >> distinct >> >>> reverberation that takes the sound to a new level. >> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Larry Reynolds , PRR-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 First Impressions Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:53:41 -0500 To: jeff@pennsyrr.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 14, 2004, at 7:38 PM, Jeff Warner wrote: > Any better at getting a "short toot" than the older ones? The few times I heard it, it sounded the same. Yes, the above is in the "third person". I didn't get to run the dang thing much. I've been "put out to pasture" by my 7 year old son who's qualified on most of the local layouts. His motto seems to be "have DT400... will travel". [DT400 is a Digitrax advanced throttle.] Geez, I never get to play anymore!!! Jeff, we can play with the whistle at your op session on Tuesday. Andrew says if you can set him up with a PRR diesel lashup with sound you can have the K4 to yourself!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:35:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I know this has probably been beaten to death but I have a chance to but a few of each of these. Are they good runners and do they pull good? Are there any problems with either of them that I should be aware of? How accurate are the models? I really didn't pay attention to the reviews on here when they came out as my finances wouldn't even let me consider them. Sorry if this is a rehash, you can contact me off line. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: abendschein@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:13:38 +0000 From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:20:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted: I have two J-1's and four M-1's, all very good runners. I've heard some say that the J's don't pull well, but I do not agree with that. I've had as many as thirty-five cars on one with no problems at all. I do believe the M-1's are better performers at slow speeds then the J's. There are rivet counters out there that will find the smallest things to complain about, like the J-1 bell being painted brass when it was a steel bell.....WHO CARES!...you couldn't see the thing if it were painted black anyway! These are both fine engines, and this is coming from a person that swore he'd NEVER even consider a plastic steam engine. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's >I know this has probably been beaten to death but I have a chance to but a > few of each of these. Are they good runners and do they pull good? Are > there any > problems with either of them that I should be aware of? How accurate are > the > models? I really didn't pay attention to the reviews on here when they > came > out as my finances wouldn't even let me consider them. Sorry if this is a > rehash, you can contact me off line. Todd Horton > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:25:57 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] old dividon maps Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I recently bought a set of PRR division (accounting dept?) maps that are of uncertain age. My question is how old these are...no dates that I can find. I have 43 pages but no cover sheets. Included are the Norfolk Division (the old NYP&N) and the Delaware Division here on Delmarva so it has to be post 1920 and pre-1940 by which date they were combined as the Delmarva Division. The map shows the Cape Charles Car float going to Port Norfolk thus predating Little Creek which I think opened in 1929. Other Division maps included are New York and Philla Terminals, Trenton, RF&P Railroad, Atlantic, Philadelphia, Cumberland Valley, Middle, Tyrone, Cresson, CT&DRR, Schuylkill, Sunbury, Williamsport, Elmira, Maryland, Baltimore, Renovo, Buffalo, Allegheny, Pittsburgh, Monongahela, Conemaugh, Eastern, Wheeling, Panhandle, Cleveland, Erie & Astabula, Akron, Toledo, Columbus, Cincinnati, Richmond (IN), Logansport, Chicago Term, Fort Wayne, Grand RapidsIndainapolis, St. Louis, Long Island RR, BC&A RY , B&E RR and the associated Steamboat lines. I will scan them eventually and offer to Jerry for posting on Keystone Crossings if there is interest..... Jim McDaniel, Delmarva map collector ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:55:03 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, I must agree with Larry on this. Both of these models are fine runners = and excellent examples of PRR mainline steam power. Broadway Limited was = responsible for pushing me into DCC and I now wish I had done it ten = years ago. I regularly operate a 70-car hopper train with two 4-8-2's on = the point and a pair of Js shoving hard on the rear. No traction tires = installed on any of the locomotives. Both models have some cast-on piping which is a very small negative in = my opinion. The models can be very easily enhanced with a few additional = details and some weathering to blend right in with the best of the brass = imports. Take a look at what Gary Mittner has done with his M1's: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BLIM1b.html If that doesn't sell you, nothing will! Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Larry Reynolds=20 To: CENTGA@aol.com ; = PRR-TALK@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Ted: I have two J-1's and four M-1's, all very good runners. I've heard = some say=20 that the J's don't pull well, but I do not agree with that. I've had = as=20 many as thirty-five cars on one with no problems at all. I do believe = the=20 M-1's are better performers at slow speeds then the J's. There are = rivet=20 counters out there that will find the smallest things to complain = about,=20 like the J-1 bell being painted brass when it was a steel bell.....WHO = CARES!...you couldn't see the thing if it were painted black anyway! These are both fine engines, and this is coming from a person that = swore=20 he'd NEVER even consider a plastic steam engine. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message -----=20 From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's >I know this has probably been beaten to death but I have a chance to = but a > few of each of these. Are they good runners and do they pull good? = Are=20 > there any > problems with either of them that I should be aware of? How accurate = are=20 > the > models? I really didn't pay attention to the reviews on here when = they=20 > came > out as my finances wouldn't even let me consider them. Sorry if this = is a > rehash, you can contact me off line. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:54:36 +0000 >From: "Larry Reynolds" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's >Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 08:20:21 -0500 >----- Original Message ----- From: >Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:08:34 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, I must agree with Larry on this. Both of these models are fine runners = and excellent examples of PRR mainline steam power. Broadway Limited was = responsible for pushing me into DCC and I now wish I had done it ten = years ago. I regularly operate a 70-car hopper train with two 4-8-2's on = the point and a pair of Js shoving hard on the rear. No traction tires = installed on any of the locomotives. Both models have some cast-on piping which is a very small negative in = my opinion. The models can be very easily enhanced with a few additional = details and some weathering to blend right in with the best of the brass = imports. Take a look at what Gary Mittner has done with his M1's: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BLIM1b.html If that doesn't sell you, nothing will! Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Larry Reynolds=20 To: CENTGA@aol.com ; PRR-TALK@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Ted: I have two J-1's and four M-1's, all very good runners. I've heard = some say=20 that the J's don't pull well, but I do not agree with that. I've had = as=20 many as thirty-five cars on one with no problems at all. I do believe = the=20 M-1's are better performers at slow speeds then the J's. There are = rivet=20 counters out there that will find the smallest things to complain = about,=20 like the J-1 bell being painted brass when it was a steel bell.....WHO = CARES!...you couldn't see the thing if it were painted black anyway! These are both fine engines, and this is coming from a person that = swore=20 he'd NEVER even consider a plastic steam engine. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message -----=20 From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's >I know this has probably been beaten to death but I have a chance to = but a > few of each of these. Are they good runners and do they pull good? = Are=20 > there any > problems with either of them that I should be aware of? How accurate = are=20 > the > models? I really didn't pay attention to the reviews on here when = they=20 > came > out as my finances wouldn't even let me consider them. Sorry if this = is a > rehash, you can contact me off line. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60B Photograph Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:22:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <005e01c4ca5c$e6d44710$7f5f4c0c@5423ushome> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTKXXskzYzve+G9RO+KXMPVDkq39gAwOJvQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Presumable the color you want is Tuscan red. I have several photos taken a few years ago of a derelict B60b after an attack of spray paint vandals over Conrail white. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bennett Levin Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:16 AM To: Jerry @ Pennsy; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] B60B Photograph I am looking for a good color photograph of a B60B, as well as any photograph of B60B 9288. Reward for best photo submitted! Bennett Levin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 06:33:14 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] old dividon maps From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:48:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <1a4.2b0efb12.2ec97df1@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTKxIgoVVFLGmDvS1mpdnUDePQIywAXVD8w Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fitted with the traction tire, I have been unable to determine the limit of the J1's pulling capacity. To date mine have handled 50 car trains up the North Shore club's curving 2.5% grades. I have decided not to bother trying any more. The main grade is long enough that a 200+ car train could be all on the grade at once! regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of CENTGA@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:35 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited M1'a and J1's I know this has probably been beaten to death but I have a chance to but a few of each of these. Are they good runners and do they pull good? Are there any problems with either of them that I should be aware of? How accurate are the models? I really didn't pay attention to the reviews on here when they came out as my finances wouldn't even let me consider them. Sorry if this is a rehash, you can contact me off line. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Ltd. E7A For Sale Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:56:39 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have one new in the box Broadway Limited E7A available for $154.00 = plus USPS shipping to your ZIP code. BLI stock number is 754; engine = number is 5841A. Engine is painted in five-stripe Tuscan scheme, = powered with sound and antennas installed. Please contact me directly = if interested. Thanks. Frank Brua Park Varieties ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1C375F22-3717-11D9-B72A-000A95BE86AE@tamug.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-Talk From: Don Harper Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:00:38 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2004 15:03:36.0308 (UTC) FILETIME=[48285340:01C4CB24] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Artrain has been parked at the Galveston RR Museum since Wednesday last week. For those of you who don't know, this is a 4 coach plus caboose consist that tours the country carrying art displays - a traveling art museum if you will. According to the information provided in the cars themselves, the first and last coaches are ex NYC. In fact, the remains of New York Central can be seen in the small placard areas at both ends of ARTX 1. ARTX 2 and 3 are ex-Broadway Limited kitchen dormitory table cars. I could find no trace of "PRR" anywhere, although I did not spend any time under the cars. I assume the brake rigging and draft gear have not been changed all that much, so if anyone is interested in superdetailing these cars will be coming to a town near you at some point in the next 4 years. The train goes to Silsbee, TX, tomorrow, then to McAllen, TX, for its last stop this season. The crew tells me they will be traveling the East Coast next year, starting in Georgia and working north as the weather improves. The schedule and other information is on the web site at www.artrainusa.org Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:11:55 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Fred Abendschein wrote: "During WWII the PRR took out a full page ad called "Diary of a Wartime Freight Car - Pennsylvania 59944. <> I'm just curious if the List knows anything else about this particular car." I checked this car in my copy of the April 1943 ORER. This car was not equipped with an Evans Auto Racks - in fact, if you take a look at all of the loads featured in that ad, not one of them included automobiles. (However, cars equipped with Evans Auto Racks could haul general cargo, as the racks were stowed against the roof.) This series of cars also had the earlier "inset" roof design. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:11:55 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred Abendschein wrote: "During WWII the PRR took out a full page ad called "Diary of a Wartime Freight Car - Pennsylvania 59944. <> I'm just curious if the List knows anything else about this particular car." I checked this car in my copy of the April 1943 ORER. This car was not equipped with an Evans Auto Racks - in fact, if you take a look at all of the loads featured in that ad, not one of them included automobiles. (However, cars equipped with Evans Auto Racks could haul general cargo, as the racks were stowed against the roof.) This series of cars also had the earlier "inset" roof design. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:20:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <111520041013.15621.419881520000C26C00003D05220073583402070A080C9C0B020A0D0E@comcast.net> X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.11.14.0 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For anyone who hasn't seen the ad, there's a scan of it on my web site. See: http://prr.railfan.net/images/AD_DiaryOfAWartimeFreightCar_PRR59944.jpg Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of abendschein@comcast.net Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:14 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 During WWII the PRR took out a full page ad called "Diary of a Wartime Freight Car - Pennsylvania 59944." The ad followed where the car went during the summer months of 1943 while totaling 15,000 miles. The car's travels took it to the West Coat twice, through Chicago several times, to Massachusetts, and to Baltimore. Loads included ship parts, wood pulp, paper, plane parts, and lumber. Ian Fischer's article on "The Wagontops" in March 1981 "The Keystone" identifies 59944 as a X31, designed to carry four automobiles. >From the drawing in the article and description the ad artist seems to have done a good job of illustrating the car. Originally in 1932 there were 250 in the class, but between 1939 and 1944 they dropped to only 35 where it held steady to 1960. None lasted until the merger, although some were rebuilt. I'm just curious if the List knows anything else about this particular car. TIA. Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:14:29 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7485C5205@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Thread-Index: AcTLJp4sCexc70xATC+4svG3cyhLUwAA6Nlw From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Rob Schoenberg" , "PRR Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just to give a little comparison between the railroads of 1943 and 2004. PRR 59944 traveled 15,000 miles in about 90 days which was an average of 166 miles per day. I had a locomotive shipped from Boise, Idaho on September 21st (2004) to Miami, FL over the UP and CSX via East St. Louis, Ill. The loco arrived on November 11th, 51 days later. 2900 miles in 51 days is about 57 miles per day. =20 Moral of the story, box cars moved three times as fast in 1943 and they do today, in 2004.=20 My loco spent over a week each in North Platte, NB, CHICAGO, East St. Louis, and Indianapolis. It took over 48 hours to move from Montgomery, AL to Waycross, GA when I can drive it in probably three hours. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Rob Schoenberg Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:21 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 For anyone who hasn't seen the ad, there's a scan of it on my web site. See: http://prr.railfan.net/images/AD_DiaryOfAWartimeFreightCar_PRR59944.jpg Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of abendschein@comcast.net Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:14 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 During WWII the PRR took out a full page ad called "Diary of a Wartime Freight Car - Pennsylvania 59944." The ad followed where the car went during the summer months of 1943 while totaling 15,000 miles. The car's travels took it to the West Coat twice, through Chicago several times, to Massachusetts, and to Baltimore. Loads included ship parts, wood pulp, paper, plane parts, and lumber. Ian Fischer's article on "The Wagontops" in March 1981 "The Keystone" identifies 59944 as a X31, designed to carry four automobiles. >From the drawing in the article and description the ad artist seems to have done a good job of illustrating the car. Originally in 1932 there were 250 in the class, but between 1939 and 1944 they dropped to only 35 where it held steady to 1960. None lasted until the merger, although some were rebuilt. I'm just curious if the List knows anything else about this particular car. TIA. Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:54:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, A locomotive, MOOW, is not a fair comparison to a boxcar. Most locomotives dead-in-tow have a speed restriction limiting their placement in manifest freight trains. Dispatchers will have them held in terminals for light traffic days when a resatricted speed movement won't tie up the whole railroad. That said, when I got involved in car hire issues (deprescription) in the 1990's, the average mileage for unassigned XM boxcars was only 70 miles per day. When I hired out on PRR, cars were expected to make any train departing a major class yard more than eight hours after arrival. Today they are lucky to make a train 30 hours after arrival! Make it 48 on CSXT. We could sell 3rd morning service from St. Louis to 90 percent of PRR destinations in 1964. Be lucky to make Indianapolis by 3rd morning today! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Rob Schoenberg" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 > Just to give a little comparison between the railroads of 1943 and 2004. > PRR 59944 traveled 15,000 miles in about 90 days which was an average of > 166 miles per day. > > I had a locomotive shipped from Boise, Idaho on September 21st (2004) to > Miami, FL over the UP and CSX via East St. Louis, Ill. The loco arrived > on November 11th, 51 days later. 2900 miles in 51 days is about 57 > miles per day. > > Moral of the story, box cars moved three times as fast in 1943 and they > do today, in 2004. > > My loco spent over a week each in North Platte, NB, CHICAGO, East St. > Louis, and Indianapolis. It took over 48 hours to move from Montgomery, > AL to Waycross, GA when I can drive it in probably three hours. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Rob > Schoenberg > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:21 AM > To: PRR Talk > Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 > > For anyone who hasn't seen the ad, there's a scan of it on my web site. > See: > http://prr.railfan.net/images/AD_DiaryOfAWartimeFreightCar_PRR59944.jpg > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > abendschein@comcast.net > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:14 AM > To: PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 > > > During WWII the PRR took out a full page ad called "Diary of a Wartime > Freight Car - Pennsylvania 59944." > > The ad followed where the car went during the summer months of 1943 > while > totaling 15,000 miles. > > The car's travels took it to the West Coat twice, through Chicago > several > times, to Massachusetts, and to Baltimore. Loads included ship parts, > wood > pulp, paper, plane parts, and lumber. > > Ian Fischer's article on "The Wagontops" in March 1981 "The Keystone" > identifies 59944 as a X31, designed to carry four automobiles. > >>From the drawing in the article and description the ad artist seems to > have > done a good job of illustrating the car. > > Originally in 1932 there were 250 in the class, but between 1939 and > 1944 > they dropped to only 35 where it held steady to 1960. None lasted until > the > merger, although some were rebuilt. > > I'm just curious if the List knows anything else about this particular > car. > TIA. > > Fred Abendschein > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:25:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry wrote: > PRR-talker Ken McCorry's layout is featured in this month's MR, as > previously mentioned, but the Trains web site now has a video online at > > http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/477auocz.asp This is an excerpt from the Digital Image Works video Model Railroad Operations Vol. II Helpers http://www.DigitalImage Works.com The excerpt shows helper operations when Ken's layout was still operating as a PRR diesel era layout rather than the current CR/PC. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:13:32 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:28:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 02:13 PM, Zak wrote: > That excerpt of Ken McCorry's layout is great. Is the entire video > available for purchase, and if so, from where? Digital Image Works http://www.diwks.com/model.html There are two videos featuring Ken's layout and both are worth having! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:36:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, November 15, 2004, at 02:13 PM, Zak wrote: > That excerpt of Ken McCorry's layout is great. Is the entire video > available for purchase, and if so, from where? Should have mentioned... Ken has three open house dates this season.. the first one is this Wednesday. All dates are on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:47:00 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout From: "Jerry Britton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Video of Ken McCorry's Layout Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:32:33 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] 2005 NMRA Calendar From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:36:55 EST Subject: [PRR] ITEMS for SALE 11-15 Part 1 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List Good time to fill your Christmas wishes. I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond $ 95 PRR Altoona Shops & Yards,Shows shop layout & complete yd $25 PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a front view, a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8 tracks wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11 $25 PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to Slope, Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14 $25 PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & inclines, New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen. $9 PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper $1 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay $350.00 Later to be the Southwest Branch from Greensburg,Pa. PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60,very good cond. $21 PRR MW52(D) Unused,Excellent Cond $27 PRR C.E. 78 Manual for construction,unused, excellent cond. $27 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused $5 PRR Annual Report-1925 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle $45 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.30 9-24-39 $40 PRR Mid. Mid. Div No.6 4-25-54 $30 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.8, 10-25-59,VG used cond,not issued $25 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.11,10-29-61,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.12,10-28-62, VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s $20 PRR Hiring Manual - Nov,1956 Very good cond, $20 PRR Elec. Opr. Inst.,1960 rev.,VG cond, unissued $9 PRR Book of Rules,10-28-56,VG cond,unissued $9 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, 75 cents $10 ea.bk PRR Grab bag assrtmnt of over 23 items in brown interoffice evlp - $25 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin $30 PRR 40 year Silver service pin $30 PRR Lounge Car Smoking Stand,Good used cond,not perfect,as it came out of the lounge car,Heavy $450.00 PRR Stainless Steel water can,Very Good cond $45, also 1 W/O lid - $40 PRR Keystone Whistle Sign,Excellent cond,Repainted( had to as old paint was falling off and was rusty),Heavy $250 Thank you Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:37:11 EST Subject: [PRR] ITEMS for SALE 11-15 Part 2 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List Good time to fill your Christmas wishes. I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water marks on cover only $5 PC 1967 Annual Report - good used cond $10 PC 1968 Annual Report - good used cond $10 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.4 5-1-70,New,no G.O.'s $17 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.4 5-1-70,with G.O.'s $15 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.5 12-15-72,with green vinyl cover $18 PC Leather Conductors Wallet,Well used but still nice cond $10 PC MW1-New Unused $ 15 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section for inspection,2nd section for construction $12 PC Grab Bag assrmnt of 14 items in Lrg PC 11 x 14 envlp - $20 PC MW4 - New cond,no cover $10 PC MW4 - New Cond,unused $15 PC Hand towel,Green logo and name sewn in - $18 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 PC Long neck Journal oil can,VG used cond $45 CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $100 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 CR Annual Report-1982,83,85,86,87 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent. $30 CR Safety Committee sewn patch,blue background,white logo and letters $10 CR First Aid Kit,Opened,one or two packets used,VG cond,a must for train room $35 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latchs move,heavy $35 Pullman Hand Towel,has PC & UP logo stamped in black ink over ea.other,gd cond - $18 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only $50pr Atlas SD7,w/DB, undec,new ,tested only,cracked plastic box $45 Atlas SD9,NKP,no DB,new ,tested only,w/plastic box $45 Unmarked Kero can,used good cond. - $35 Unmarked Battery Flashing Markers,good used cond,not perfect but still work fine,plastic body,1-yellow, 1-orange $30ea or $50pr Unmarked STARR Car Insp blue lite,non-Flashing,orange body - $25 Thank you. Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: abendschein@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:42:49 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:25:40 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:59:40 +0000 From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:28:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, Bowser didn't do it in N scale, but Fine-N-Scale has a kit for this car type. A really first-class N scale resin kit. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ted Andrews" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 > Ted Andrews asked: > "Speaking of car 59944, did Bowser do this car in either HO or N scale?" > > They haven't done this car number. (This is a blessing as until recently, > the CK paint and lettering on the Bowser 40 ft Class X31/X31A has been > abysmal. The paint color bears no resemblence to any shade of FCC, and > the lettering "fonts" are grossly incorrect.) A list of car numbers used > on their X31 kits is at > http://www.bowser-trains.com/nrs_used_hox31_4dr.php > > To model PRR 59944 in HO, use Bowser Stock No. 1-55340 (40 Foot RR Inset > Double Door Box Car Undecorated), your favorite shade of prewar FCC, and > letter using Middle Division HBX-7 or CDS HO-313. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:19:25 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:46:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, I asked Tony and the techs at BLI way back when the T1's first hit about the possibilty of the pre '46 T1 look. He said that is a good idea and they would keep it in mind. What ever that means. To make the M1 and the pre '46 T1 from the exsisting models isn't that easy. Cost a lot of money for the new tooling that is needed. For the T1, probably a whole new boiler and a complete new Tender shell. The M1 may just require a Cylnder saddle and partial walk ways. A new tender would go along way too. I am guessing 500.000 bucks. Is it worth it for them to go to the trouble? Not sure.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel files Chapter 11 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:47:41 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lionel filed chapter 11 bankruptcy due to the MTH suit. Get your PRR stuff early as it may be awhile before it is avialble again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Personal" Subject: [PRR] Need Colors Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:59:33 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dear Group, I am taking a Black & White picture that is on my computer, and wanting = to add Tuscan Red & the PRR Green that most Diesels came in to the two Diesels in the picture by using Photoshop. This is not some kind of authentic anything, it is for my personal = enjoyment. When I get it done, I will post it for everyone's viewing. It is a very rare picture of something that never was, but it looks = really pretty. I paid to have it scanned and sent to me. The help I need from any of you is where can I get the most accurate = color paletts? I would appreciate your help. Website link, if applicable, would be = great. Best regards, Eric Trenga ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:59:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel files Chapter 11 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 10:47 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Lionel filed chapter 11 bankruptcy due to the MTH suit. Get your PRR > stuff early as it may be awhile before it is avialble again. Before this thread gets out of hand, please understand that this is a reorg bankruptcy and may be a ploy (common) to get the award reduced. It may not affect production at all.. So let's please not spend time on it at present. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel files Chapter 11 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:02:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm, Looks like MTH has discovered it's easier to gain market share by suing your competitors than putting out a better product - MTH is going after BLI, QSI, and anyone offering decoders with back EMF as well. MTH has tasted blood and likes the taste. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:47 AM Subject: [PRR] Lionel files Chapter 11 > Lionel filed chapter 11 bankruptcy due to the MTH suit. Get your PRR > stuff early as it may be awhile before it is avialble again. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:01:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Ted, > > I asked Tony and the techs at BLI way back when the T1's first hit > about the possibilty of the pre '46 T1 look. He said that is a good idea > and they would keep it in mind. What ever that means. > > To make the M1 and the pre '46 T1 from the exsisting models isn't > that easy. Cost a lot of money for the new tooling that is needed. For > the T1, probably a whole new boiler and a complete new Tender shell. The > M1 may just require a Cylnder saddle and partial walk ways. A new > tender would go along way too. I am guessing 500.000 bucks. Is it worth > it for them to go to the trouble? Not sure.....Gary The M1 would also require a new frame and new boiler because of length differences beteween the M1 and M1A/B. Basically it would be a new model using the old drivers. Almost no savings there at all. We all expect an I1 from BLI shortly and beyond that I have no information. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:13:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My hope is for an I1 both pre and post war. But I hope they wait until summer or fall of next year so my budget has time to recover from their earlier releases. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:22:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 11:01 AM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > We all expect an > I1 from BLI shortly and beyond that I have no information. Agreed, and even alluded to at the 2004 PRRT&HS annual meeting. I've also heard from several sources (none official) of a Reading T1. That would also be popular with PRR modelers of the 1956ish (?) era when several were leased. There are many photos of Reading T1's working through Harrisburg. I'm guessing they'll leave the L1 alone since there previously were public reports of Life Like planning an L1 release... and having been at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania measuring surviving L1 #520. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:34:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > My hope is for an I1 both pre and post war. But I hope they wait until > summer or fall of next year so my budget has time to recover from their > earlier releases. > Eric There were a LOT of hardware variations on the I1 (in fact, this will make the PRRPro I1 project, coming in March, VERY interesting!) so I would not expect more thatn a couple of variants from BLI. Note for example that they do not offer the correct markers on the "pre-war" K4. BLI seems to be intent on keeping the amount of variation low between models, which in turn allows relatively lower prices for small runs. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:46:00 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTL+ZuJh4leLi1wTHyxye11C6VlGwAAfocQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Are all my super detailed Bowsers about to become obsolete?? Siiiigh! regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:23 AM To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 11:01 AM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > We all expect an > I1 from BLI shortly and beyond that I have no information. Agreed, and even alluded to at the 2004 PRRT&HS annual meeting. I've also heard from several sources (none official) of a Reading T1. That would also be popular with PRR modelers of the 1956ish (?) era when several were leased. There are many photos of Reading T1's working through Harrisburg. I'm guessing they'll leave the L1 alone since there previously were public reports of Life Like planning an L1 release... and having been at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania measuring surviving L1 #520. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:44:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/588/Sun Nov 14 19:06:21 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, you said until recently, are newer runs better? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ted Andrews" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 > Ted Andrews asked: > "Speaking of car 59944, did Bowser do this car in either HO or N scale?" > > They haven't done this car number. (This is a blessing as until recently, the CK paint and lettering on the Bowser 40 ft Class X31/X31A has been abysmal. The paint color bears no resemblence to any shade of FCC, and the lettering "fonts" are grossly incorrect.) A list of car numbers used on their X31 kits is at > http://www.bowser-trains.com/nrs_used_hox31_4dr.php > > To model PRR 59944 in HO, use Bowser Stock No. 1-55340 (40 Foot RR Inset Double Door Box Car Undecorated), your favorite shade of prewar FCC, and letter using Middle Division HBX-7 or CDS HO-313. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:02:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Todays question: does anyone know which of the following will be attached to the I1; the 90-F-82, the 130-F-82a, or the 210-F-82b tender? My hope is that it does not have an "oasis-on-wheels" just this once ! Branch lines need power too. [ H class next?] Fred Freitas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products >> My hope is for an I1 both pre and post war. But I hope they wait until >> summer or fall of next year so my budget has time to recover from their >> earlier releases. >> Eric > > There were a LOT of hardware variations on the I1 (in fact, this will make > the PRRPro I1 project, coming in March, VERY interesting!) so I would not > expect more thatn a couple of variants from BLI. Note for example that > they do not offer the correct markers on the "pre-war" K4. BLI seems to > be intent on keeping the amount of variation low between models, which in > turn allows relatively lower prices for small runs. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR box car 59944 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:15:26 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:24:01 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel files Chapter 11 From: Tucson3985@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:32:08 EST Subject: [PRR] potential BLI products X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What do Reading T-1 4-8-4 and ATSF Class 5011 2-10-4 have in common with PRR J-1 2-10-4 locomotives? All were used on the PRR in the late 50s, hauling coal and ore. If BLI would do the RDG T-1, and the ATSF 5011 2-10-4, they would likely be able to sell models to modelers of those roads PLUS the PRR. More bang for the buck, as it's said. To a lesser degree, PRR 2-8-0s of H-8, H-9 and H-10 classes wandered after their PRR life. These, too, would appeal to modelers of roads other than PRR. The USRA Light and Heavy Mikado tender is roughly the size of a PRR 2-8-0 tender; BLI and QSI have managed to fit the sound system in those models with no problem. Thus, the size of the tender isn't an obstacle to the production of PRR 2-8-0s. I suspect they might be on BLI's short list but I have absolutely no information other than suspicion concerning that possibility. The RDG 4-8-4 is an interesting locomotive. Some are still around, and in the 1970s we who lived in the eastern US had RDG 2101 (Freedom Train) and 2102 in operation for many years. The ATSF 5011s are huge 2-10-4s. Very impressive and in model form they're still huge. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:43:59 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:54:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 16, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Maybe if someone who has the ear of the designers at > BLI would suggest a pair of tenders...they already > have the 210-F-82a from the J1 (which would make a > good choice for an M1 or seperately to replace the > tender on a M1a/b) so the initial cost wouldn't be > higher. And a choice would be good for all of us...and > might result in additional sales for them! (win-win > situation) Speaking of tenders... I wonder how much of a market there is for BLI tenders, without sound, sold separately. Why? Cause you can put them sticking butt-end out of your roundhouse to make your roundhouse look full! Anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:00:50 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:25:57 +0000 >From: Bill Daniels >Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:00:50 -0800 (PST) From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 13:52:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel files Chapter 11 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Don't get in a panic. The Chapter 11 action was fully expected; Lionel's new management is confident that there will be a Lionel for many Christmases to come. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:00:23 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Maple Street in Louisville Gentlemen, Reviewing maps for use in a coming Trackside book has again raised a question about a PRR Maple Street Yard in Louisville... 1. The Pennsy came ashore in Louisville at Clagg Tower, and went south on the 14th Street corridor to Broadway. From there south, it went in two directions -- to Union Station, and on down the 14th Street alignment to the Illinois Central Oak Street Yard's north end (at Kentucky Street). 2. After the elevation project was finished in 1940, passenger trains took an S-curved track east from Broadway for 3 blocks, passing over 13th and 12th on bridges, and coming down to cross 11th Street into the Louisville Union Station grounds. And switch cuts down the Kentucky Street Branch (to IC Oak Street, or the Arbegust Branch, or what was left of the Maple Street Branch) came down a long ramp to Arbegust Street. 3. By contrast, before the elevation project started in 1938, the railroading was all done "on the ground." No ramp down from Broadway was needed, and the Kentucky St. Branch simply ran south on the 14th Street alignment at street level until it crossed Kentucky Street, where PRR had an elevated crossing watchman's tower (with bell) on the northwest corner. Passenger trains also started down the Kentucky Street Branch, but half a block south of the present route to Union Station, turned east and ran in the middle of Maple Street to 11th, where it connected to Union Station tracks. That turn at Maple Street was guarded by a tower which shows up on old Sanborn maps. Vintage sources identify it as Maple Street Tower. 4. All the above is well established and documented. And so is the existence of the cigarette-factory-and-distillery-rich Arbegust Branch, which still turns WEST off the Kentucky Street Branch a short block south of Maple Street (and thus the site of the tower). What's less obvious is that, at the branching off of the Arbegust Track, there was a small yard (6 tracks 1968, 5 tracks 1973, now dismantled). This appears to be the only yard facility Pennsy had on the south end of the 14th street corridor, and thus was probably used to arrange cars for the IC interchange, the Kentucky Street Branch, the Arbegust Branch, and the industries along surviving Maple Street trackage. 5. My problem is that, even though not exactly at Maple Street, somewhere I picked up that this small yard was known as Maple Street Yard. This offends the local L&N fans, who are all aware of L&N's Maple Street Yard some 3 1/2 blocks east of there, along the 11th Street side of the Louisville Union Station property. Thus, they "know" the Pennsy yard couldn't have the same name -- this despite the two Oak Street Yards (L&N and IC), three Kentucky Street timetable points (two on the L&N, one where PRR rails become IC), and the Union Depot/Union Station embroglio (7th Street Station or Central Station vs. 10th Street Station or Union Station). 6. As of right now, I can't find a reference for "PRR Maple Street Yard" on the 1968 Track Chart, the CT1000 (no surprise there), or in the 1956 employee timetable. Where else could I have established that this tiny facility was called "Maple Street" on the PRR? And did anyone know it by another name? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:10:49 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] LW standard structures In a message dated 11/10/04 5:03:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:22:26 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Mountaineer > > > > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > >Coached by PRRT&HS member Jon Barker of Cincinnati, Mountaineer brought out > > >three kits this year: > >1. three different Lines West watch boxes > >2. a LW section house > >3. a LW standard station > > > I'm curious. What specific design of Lines West standard station, and > from what source? > > Richard Wallis Kit #961 titles itself "PRR Lines West Class "A" Station." I'm sure the prints and other data came from Cincinnati modeler Jon Barker, who did the presentation on standard classes of Lines West structures at PRRT&HS Cincinnati. The clinic showed a lot of research, and photos of standard Lines West structures. It was too bad you couldn't make this year's annual meeting in Cincy -- it was chockful of Lines West goodies. I believe Jon may be repeating that fascinating clinic for the NMRA regional convention in Cincy next spring, but don't know if he's been asked to repeat it at the 2005 or 2006 PRRTH&S annual. I'm supposed to be working with Jon on identifying and classifying standard LW interlocking tower designs to add to his work on stations and track sheds, but the upcoming Trackside in Louisville books are robbing me of all my time right now... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:00:23 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Maple Street in Louisville X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gentlemen, Reviewing maps for use in a coming Trackside book has again raised a question about a PRR Maple Street Yard in Louisville... 1. The Pennsy came ashore in Louisville at Clagg Tower, and went south on the 14th Street corridor to Broadway. From there south, it went in two directions -- to Union Station, and on down the 14th Street alignment to the Illinois Central Oak Street Yard's north end (at Kentucky Street). 2. After the elevation project was finished in 1940, passenger trains took an S-curved track east from Broadway for 3 blocks, passing over 13th and 12th on bridges, and coming down to cross 11th Street into the Louisville Union Station grounds. And switch cuts down the Kentucky Street Branch (to IC Oak Street, or the Arbegust Branch, or what was left of the Maple Street Branch) came down a long ramp to Arbegust Street. 3. By contrast, before the elevation project started in 1938, the railroading was all done "on the ground." No ramp down from Broadway was needed, and the Kentucky St. Branch simply ran south on the 14th Street alignment at street level until it crossed Kentucky Street, where PRR had an elevated crossing watchman's tower (with bell) on the northwest corner. Passenger trains also started down the Kentucky Street Branch, but half a block south of the present route to Union Station, turned east and ran in the middle of Maple Street to 11th, where it connected to Union Station tracks. That turn at Maple Street was guarded by a tower which shows up on old Sanborn maps. Vintage sources identify it as Maple Street Tower. 4. All the above is well established and documented. And so is the existence of the cigarette-factory-and-distillery-rich Arbegust Branch, which still turns WEST off the Kentucky Street Branch a short block south of Maple Street (and thus the site of the tower). What's less obvious is that, at the branching off of the Arbegust Track, there was a small yard (6 tracks 1968, 5 tracks 1973, now dismantled). This appears to be the only yard facility Pennsy had on the south end of the 14th street corridor, and thus was probably used to arrange cars for the IC interchange, the Kentucky Street Branch, the Arbegust Branch, and the industries along surviving Maple Street trackage. 5. My problem is that, even though not exactly at Maple Street, somewhere I picked up that this small yard was known as Maple Street Yard. This offends the local L&N fans, who are all aware of L&N's Maple Street Yard some 3 1/2 blocks east of there, along the 11th Street side of the Louisville Union Station property. Thus, they "know" the Pennsy yard couldn't have the same name -- this despite the two Oak Street Yards (L&N and IC), three Kentucky Street timetable points (two on the L&N, one where PRR rails become IC), and the Union Depot/Union Station embroglio (7th Street Station or Central Station vs. 10th Street Station or Union Station). 6. As of right now, I can't find a reference for "PRR Maple Street Yard" on the 1968 Track Chart, the CT1000 (no surprise there), or in the 1956 employee timetable. Where else could I have established that this tiny facility was called "Maple Street" on the PRR? And did anyone know it by another name? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:10:49 EST Subject: [PRR] LW standard structures X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/10/04 5:03:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 15:22:26 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Mountaineer > > > > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > >Coached by PRRT&HS member Jon Barker of Cincinnati, Mountaineer brought out > > >three kits this year: > >1. three different Lines West watch boxes > >2. a LW section house > >3. a LW standard station > > > I'm curious. What specific design of Lines West standard station, and > from what source? > > Richard Wallis Kit #961 titles itself "PRR Lines West Class "A" Station." I'm sure the prints and other data came from Cincinnati modeler Jon Barker, who did the presentation on standard classes of Lines West structures at PRRT&HS Cincinnati. The clinic showed a lot of research, and photos of standard Lines West structures. It was too bad you couldn't make this year's annual meeting in Cincy -- it was chockful of Lines West goodies. I believe Jon may be repeating that fascinating clinic for the NMRA regional convention in Cincy next spring, but don't know if he's been asked to repeat it at the 2005 or 2006 PRRTH&S annual. I'm supposed to be working with Jon on identifying and classifying standard LW interlocking tower designs to add to his work on stations and track sheds, but the upcoming Trackside in Louisville books are robbing me of all my time right now... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PennsyWest] LW standard structures Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:48:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: the Mountaineer three kits this year: 1. three different Lines West watch boxes 2. a LW section house 3. a LW standard station For pictures see page 13 of the November, Model Railroad News. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:02:32 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] potential BLI products X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To a lesser degree, PRR 2-8-0s of H-8, H-9 and H-10 classes wandered after their PRR life. These, too, would appeal to modelers of roads other than PRR. To All And didn't the H6 "get around" a lot too? Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, Organic Gardener ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:12:24 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted Andrews wrote: > I think that offering tenders separately (with and without sound) > would be a great idea too. It would give us a chance to switch them on > engines as they were done on the prototype. > > ....in case BLI spys are monitoring this list......I WOULD MOST > DEFINITELY BUY PRR TENDERS IF SOLD SEPARATELY......(wink) > > Ted > >> From: Bill Daniels >> To: Jerry Britton >> CC: PRR-Talk LIST >> Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products >> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:00:50 -0800 (PST) >> >> Me, I just want some variety in my locomotives. And I >> agree that BLI should investigate offering seperate >> tenders. Either with or without sound... >> >> Bill >> >> --- Jerry Britton wrote: >> >> > Speaking of tenders... >> > >> > I wonder how much of a market there is for BLI >> > tenders, without sound, >> > sold separately. >> > >> > Why? Cause you can put them sticking butt-end out of >> > your roundhouse to >> > make your roundhouse look full! >> > >> > Anyone? > You can bet your sweet bippies I'd buy some tenders. Especially if they did the little one like MDC's. Or even if they just made the sound unit to fit in MDC's tender. Now we're talking! Of course, the sound unit as it is today won't fit, but maybe they could "squash" it a bit. LOL Offer it with and without DCC. Another idea. Make tenders in the many PRR configurations, include sound units. With and without DCC. So we could buy and use them behind any/all PRR engines. Look at this potential market! Even if they cost beaucoup bucks (MDC's costs $20, so anything over $25 is "beaucoup". LOL) But seriously, a tender costing $100 to $110 with sound? and $120 to $130 with DCC added would be worth it. Take a Bowser loco, add this new tender, and violá! Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:24:28 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Newpaper article, Lionel bankruptcy filing From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:39:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] I1sa in the works,(was: Potential BLI products) MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi ya'll Earlier this year, myself and two other PRR modelers spoke with the BLI folks in Timonium. We asked about future PRR locomotives and they did tell us that "an I1 was in the works". We did suggest to them about offering two types of tenders (as built and "coast to coast"). It would be nice to have a few I class locomotives on the layout. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:11:52 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Newpaper article, Lionel bankruptcy filing Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com robert netzlof wrote: > > The following may be of interest although not closely PRR-related: > > http://www.detnews.com/2004/business/0411/16/C02-5618.htm > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob The largest unsecured creditor, to the tune of $31 million, is PNC Bank. My Bank!! So maybe I will see "Open a checking account, get a milk car." "Buy a $10,000 CD, get a Speeder." Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:46:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My self BP-20 , BP-60 , BH-50 all would see work on my layout. PRR- Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:47:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com AGREE! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:50:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] I1sa in the works,(was: Potential BLI products) From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:15:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI Guts MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List Just curious, has anyone ever attempted yet to remove the guts from a BLI Tender and place it in another loco of better quality ie Key Imports etc? Example: Take a BLI M1a tender, remove the guts and place it in say a Challenger M1a Tender. Remove the loco harness and place it on the Challenger M1a loco. Final project would end up with one heck of a Challenger M1a and a half decent BLI non-sound M1a. Of course it may be cheaper just to go out and buy a decoder and soundtraxx chip although BLI M1a/b's at 140 some dollars at Standard Hobby makes it tempting to try it this way, especially if ones does not use DCC yet ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Fw: [PRR] old dividon maps Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:12:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'd be interested is seeing Sunbury, Williamsport, Elmira. Roy Breon ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: [PRR] old dividon maps >snipped > Other Division maps included are New York and Philla Terminals, > Trenton, RF&P Railroad, Atlantic, Philadelphia, Cumberland Valley, > Middle, Tyrone, Cresson, CT&DRR, Schuylkill, Sunbury, Williamsport, > Elmira, Maryland, Baltimore, Renovo, Buffalo, Allegheny, Pittsburgh, > Monongahela, Conemaugh, Eastern, Wheeling, Panhandle, Cleveland, Erie & > Astabula, Akron, Toledo, Columbus, Cincinnati, Richmond (IN), > Logansport, Chicago Term, Fort Wayne, Grand RapidsIndainapolis, St. > Louis, Long Island RR, BC&A RY , B&E RR and the associated Steamboat > lines. > > I will scan them eventually and offer to Jerry for posting on Keystone > Crossings if there is interest..... > > Jim McDaniel, Delmarva map collector > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:48:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PennsyWest] LW standard structures Re: the Mountaineer three kits this year: 1. three different Lines West watch boxes 2. a LW section house 3. a LW standard station For pictures see page 13 of the November, Model Railroad News. Al Buchan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:24:08 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Another call for separatly available BLI tenders From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:57:35 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ba8b6d8d9656c9d46adc79a8c1181906350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.174 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Fred--To your list of I1 tenders you could add: 110-F-82, seen on the Elmira Branch and other places (Broadway could add a doghouse to their K4 tender) 210-F-82 a few, even before and during the War (Broadway could use the M1a/b tender.) The 7 inch difference in deck height won't be noticed. This is going to be fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL > > Todays question: does anyone know which of the following will be > attached to the I1; the 90-F-82, the 130-F-82a, or the 210-F-82b tender? My > hope is that it does not have an "oasis-on-wheels" just this once ! Branch > lines need power too. [ H class next?] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:16:13 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com After playing with my K-4's for the past few days, I'm convinced that = they're fantastic. One thing I did notice is that the dynamic brake = function, (really the lowering of the exhaust sound on the BLI steam = engines, very good when drifting down a hill or into a station), does = work, but only for a short time. It lasts for about five or six seconds = and then resumes the normal sound volume. All of my other BLI locos = will maintain the lower volume until the throttle is cracked up. Anyone else see this problem? Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:41:26 -0500 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 17, 2004, at 6:16 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > After playing with my K-4's for the past few days, I'm convinced that > they're fantastic. One thing I did notice is that the dynamic brake > function, (really the lowering of the exhaust sound on the BLI steam > engines, very good when drifting down a hill or into a station), does > work, but only for a short time. It lasts for about five or six > seconds and then resumes the normal sound volume. All of my other BLI > locos will maintain the lower volume until the throttle is cracked up. Didn't try that, Larry, but last night we ran the K4 on Jeff Warner's layout, briefly, before an op session. Jeff is convinced it is indeed easier to get a "short toot" out of the whistle. Jeff coupled it up to a 7 (or was it 8) car passenger train and headed upgrade. It had absolutely no problems with his 2+ % grade. Then Jeff performed what he thought was a convincing test. With this consist, he stopped it on an uphill 2.1% grade. Then he started from this dead stop. He said there was an extremely momentary period of slipping, but then the train started without any (manual) assistance. I didn't note the slip during subsequent tries, but Jeff seemed pleased with its pulling power on his grades. He said he would have had to double head for the same test with Spectrum K4 locos. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Potential BLI products Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:40:22 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Agreed. That's why I grabbed up my PFM United I-1 with the short tender. And by the way, the I1 has always been described in the media as a behemoth. It is an older locomotive and looks small next to an M1, for example. With the short tender I may even use it to pull in the freight from staging on my home switching layout. Bob Zoeller > My > > hope is that it does not have an "oasis-on-wheels" just this once ! Branch > > lines need power too. [ H class next?] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:17:52 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Larry Reynolds writes: "After playing with my K-4's for the past few days, I'm convinced that = they're fantastic. One thing I did notice is that the dynamic brake = function, (really the lowering of the exhaust sound on the BLI steam = engines, very good when drifting down a hill or into a station), does = work, but only for a short time. It lasts for about five or six seconds = and then resumes the normal sound volume. All of my other BLI locos = will maintain the lower volume until the throttle is cracked up. Anyone else see this problem?" =20 Larry and all, I believe the length of drift (reduced exhaust volume) is proportional = to the value assigned to CV4 (deceleration). The greater the value...the = greater the length of reduced chuff volume. If CV's 3 & 4 (acceleration = and deceleration) are set to zero, then the labored and reduced volume = chuff is not active. I have developed the habit, particularly when = operating lash-ups of E7's, of increasing or decreasing the throttle = setting beyond where I want to end up in order to introduce a little = more prime mover activity. I let the momentum settings control the train = speed during this time and then select the final speed step desired just = prior to the train actually achieving that desired speed. Larry, I'm sure that I'm not telling you something that you don't = already know. Having said all that, I've been operating my first BLI K4 as a passenger = helper up the East Slope this week. I have had an unusually large amount = of head-end equipment assigned to my "Duquesne" recently (suppose mail = and REA traffic is already beginning to pick up for the holidays). The = train has blossomed to 12 head-end (X29's, R50b's, B60b's, etc.) and 10 = heavyweights for a total of 22 cars which has required K4 #7279 to = assist T1 #5533 with it's duties in this region. The reverberating chuff = of the 4-6-2 combined with the in and out of sync chuffs of the T1 = really put on quite a concert!=20 Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Jesionowski" Subject: [PRR] Model Survey Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:16:21 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Model's I would like to see made available Steam: None - I have a substantial group of brass steam locomotives. Diesel: In Plastic=20 Baldwin - Lima Transfer locomotives Updated Baldwin Sharks Correct Alco RS-11 - RS-3's Freight Cars: H35, H36, X51, X54, X59 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:26:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 8th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Assessment Survey - From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <2F5A52B0-34BE-11D9-9132-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: <135FEE91-38AD-11D9-B7FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com REMINDER: The survey is due back by 5:00 p.m. this Friday, November 19th. Another copy of the ballot is included below. Please be sure to INDICATE WHAT SCALE you are responding about. I am having to kick back a lot of surveys this year due to lack of scale indication. ---------------------------------------------------------- On Friday, November 12, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: Please respond OFF-LIST to jerry@pennsyrr.com . Please put your modeled scale in the SUBJECT after the dash. It's that time of year again, folks! Time to vote for the three models you would like to see produced in your scale in several categories. Only the first three entries in each category will be counted. Others will be discarded. If you know the PRR class for an item, use it (ex. EP22). Otherwise use the manufacturer's model (ex. EMD E8). Following your answer, feel free to indicate if you would purchase this item in quantity, accept brass as an acceptable model, etc. Ballots are open through 5 p.m., Friday, November 19th. I will then summarize the results. Each year many of our top requests make it to the assembly line. 2004 has been a great year for Pennsy and it looks to continue that way into 2005. You can view last years results in the list archives ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ ). Search for "Survey Results" and scroll down to 11/22/03 to a post by me. And now, the ballot: ---------------------------------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (If desiring MP-series variants, please put under passenger equipment as the PRR carried these on the passenger roster.) 1. 2. 3. DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. STRUCTURES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. OTHER DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. Thank you for your participation! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:54:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <9D10A93A-388D-11D9-A67E-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTMm1TsQl7mvNaCQDKzzdCsgK1euQAIIkuQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I got my K4 yesterday and immediately put it on a 9 car Duquesne: BM70M, two 28-1 Parlors, Parlor-Lounge-Club, D78 diner, four P70 coaches. The diner is particularly heavy. It is an old Walthers metal sided kit that I built with a brass floor and soldered the body together. Perhaps that's why it is still intact and running 30 years later. The coaches and Parlors all had Walthers cast lead seats, so they too, while not as heavy, are somewhat over the NMRA std weight. Contrary to the observation of others, the loco would not pull this train up even the start of the North Shore Club grades. In fact, it spun its drivers on near level track when the entire train got into a 30" r curve! It did handle a 1.5% (+/-) grade with a broader radius. My Bowsers have no trouble with this train. I was not particularly disturbed because I am convinced that the traction tired driver will resolve this. I did not upgrade the model however because BLI's QC dept struck again. As I turned the train around to try its performance on different grades, I noticed that while the tender said "PENNSYLVANIA" on one side, it said "PENNSYLVAN" on the other. Isn't the "Pensylvan" Staples delivery truck? Back to the dealer it goes!! regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 6:41 AM To: Larry Reynolds Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 On Nov 17, 2004, at 6:16 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > After playing with my K-4's for the past few days, I'm convinced that > they're fantastic. One thing I did notice is that the dynamic brake > function, (really the lowering of the exhaust sound on the BLI steam > engines, very good when drifting down a hill or into a station), does > work, but only for a short time. It lasts for about five or six > seconds and then resumes the normal sound volume. All of my other BLI > locos will maintain the lower volume until the throttle is cracked up. Didn't try that, Larry, but last night we ran the K4 on Jeff Warner's layout, briefly, before an op session. Jeff is convinced it is indeed easier to get a "short toot" out of the whistle. Jeff coupled it up to a 7 (or was it 8) car passenger train and headed upgrade. It had absolutely no problems with his 2+ % grade. Then Jeff performed what he thought was a convincing test. With this consist, he stopped it on an uphill 2.1% grade. Then he started from this dead stop. He said there was an extremely momentary period of slipping, but then the train started without any (manual) assistance. I didn't note the slip during subsequent tries, but Jeff seemed pleased with its pulling power on his grades. He said he would have had to double head for the same test with Spectrum K4 locos. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:55:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > I did not upgrade the model however because > BLI's QC dept struck again. As I turned the train around to try its > performance on different grades, I noticed that while the tender said > "PENNSYLVANIA" on one side, it said "PENNSYLVAN" on the other. > Isn't the > "Pensylvan" Staples delivery truck? Back to the dealer it goes!! Big OOOOPS! Better run and check mine! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Another call for separatly available BLI tenders Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:46:18 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <20041117032408.43517.qmail@web20027.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTMVVtYyRDKRkcGRvKkm1J6BiMx9gAanbng Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I thought the 130P?? was the more common tender. I believe that's the "new" Bowser tender and also the one behind my United brass K4. Isn't the Bachmann tender also a 110? regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Doug Kisala Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:24 PM To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] Another call for separatly available BLI tenders Hello list, Let me pile on to the requests for separately available BLI tenders. As a K4s fan, I'd buy several (4) of the new 110P75a tenders separately. I'd prefer sans sound and decoder if given the choice. 1 Since the 110P75a was the most common stoker fired K4s tender in the 40s and 50s, I think there's a market out there. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:45:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Another call for separatly available BLI tenders From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy Miller asks: > I thought the 130P?? was the more common tender. I believe that's the > "new" Bowser tender and also the one behind my United brass K4. Isn't > the Bachmann tender also a 110? The 130P75 also appeared behind the M1. The 130F82As that appeared behind the I1 in the 1950s may be limited to just 4 tenders, most of which appear to have been on the Elmira branch. The Bowser 13,000 gallon tender is really not accurate for any 130 class tender. It comes closest to the two tenders behind the K5s, but even then it isn't really right. The 110P75a is a common K5 tender and is represented by the BLI model. The Botchman model is a 110P70 for a K4 w/o stoker. These were gone by the mid 1930s. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr6100@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:57:48 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just recieved in the mail today an ad from Standard Hobby Supply, lowering the prices on the BLI engines by almost half, has anyone else got one too? Wonder if the new K4"s will be half as much in a year or so?? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:24:01 -0500 To: Prr6100@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 17, 2004, at 3:57 PM, Prr6100@aol.com wrote: > Just recieved in the mail today an ad from Standard Hobby Supply, > lowering > the prices on the BLI engines by almost half, has anyone else got one > too? > Wonder if the new K4"s will be half as much in a year or so?? BLI runs factory specials on a near monthly basis. That's what you are seeing. In November there are more specials than normal... especially GG1's and M1's. Special pricing ends November 30th. Merchandise Service announced these incentives about two weeks ago via their customer mailing list. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] ECW PB70 Parts Diagram Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 21:48:52 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ciao Tutti, Have an ECW PB70 and would appreciate a copy of the parts plan. The kit I have is missing the sheet. Cost of copy and postage gladly provided. Scan to my e-mail or fax to 603-228-3906. Tanta gracie. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:41:25 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I ran mine up our 1.5% curving grade with 9 cars with no sweat and no traction tires. It struggled a little on a 0.5% grade with a superelevated 37.5 inch radius curve, but that may have been some track irregularity. I know some will say it is my imagination, but I like the stack talk of this loco at speed best of my four locos so far. And now to check both tender sides for lettering :-(. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:28:37 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Two more detail observations about my new K4 (besides being lettered for the PENNSYLVAN RR): 1. I had always thought there was a casting on the tender deck to redirect the water from the scoop back downward into the tank without damaging the tender deck. The BLI model does not have this. The casting is part of the Cal Scale scoop detail set. 2. The bell's repeat rate is much faster than other BLI locos. I assume this is the rate for an air operated bell ringer, but the model has a manual rope operated bell. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:51:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] old division maps X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-11 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 3:5:760720806 X-MAIL-INFO:36a13499d1a01dd0d5e4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank you, Jim. Most generous of you. The ones which particularly interest me are: New York and Phila Terminals, Trenton, Atlantic, Philadelphia, Maryland, Baltimore, Chicago Term, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Indianapolis Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Juno Platinum $9.95. Juno SpeedBand $14.95. Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com! Look for special offers at Best Buy stores. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:34:00 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry: Thanks for your feedback. I understand that there is a drift when CV 4 is activated, but I'm = talking about function 7 that reduces the noise infinitely until the = throttle is cranked up. I have eight other BLI locomotives that will = hold the reduced volume for as long as I want. I have all of my = locomotives, BLI or otherwise, CV's 3 &4 set to zero. (I've found this = best for operating sessions) =20 Your 22 car Duquesne sounds like a winner. Ain't East Slope operations = great! Larry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Breon=20 To: PRR Talk ; Larry Reynolds=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] More on BLI K-4 Larry Reynolds writes: "After playing with my K-4's for the past few days, I'm convinced that = they're fantastic. One thing I did notice is that the dynamic brake = function, (really the lowering of the exhaust sound on the BLI steam = engines, very good when drifting down a hill or into a station), does = work, but only for a short time. It lasts for about five or six seconds = and then resumes the normal sound volume. All of my other BLI locos = will maintain the lower volume until the throttle is cracked up. Anyone else see this problem?" =20 Larry and all, I believe the length of drift (reduced exhaust volume) is proportional = to the value assigned to CV4 (deceleration). The greater the value...the = greater the length of reduced chuff volume. If CV's 3 & 4 (acceleration = and deceleration) are set to zero, then the labored and reduced volume = chuff is not active. I have developed the habit, particularly when = operating lash-ups of E7's, of increasing or decreasing the throttle = setting beyond where I want to end up in order to introduce a little = more prime mover activity. I let the momentum settings control the train = speed during this time and then select the final speed step desired just = prior to the train actually achieving that desired speed. Larry, I'm sure that I'm not telling you something that you don't = already know. Having said all that, I've been operating my first BLI K4 as a = passenger helper up the East Slope this week. I have had an unusually = large amount of head-end equipment assigned to my "Duquesne" recently = (suppose mail and REA traffic is already beginning to pick up for the = holidays). The train has blossomed to 12 head-end (X29's, R50b's, = B60b's, etc.) and 10 heavyweights for a total of 22 cars which has = required K4 #7279 to assist T1 #5533 with it's duties in this region. = The reverberating chuff of the 4-6-2 combined with the in and out of = sync chuffs of the T1 really put on quite a concert!=20 Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:37:36 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:15:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Guys: > One question. What is the little black box that is included with the > engine? > It is about the size of a small cigarette lighter and has the BLI logo on > it. Any ideas? > > TIA > > Ted Andrews Ted, Its the "magic wand" that lets you adjust volume and reset the engine w/o taking the tender apart. Boy, I wish the GG1, T1 and M1 had that! Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:48:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pennsy Announcements From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <3B66738C-39A3-11D9-A177-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com We knew these were coming... According to trains.com they were finally announced at TrainFest last weekend, though the Walthers site does not yet list part numbers or show a press release. --------------(snip from trains.com)----------------- Pennsylvania RR class R50B express refrigerator cars. New paint schemes. 1936-1938 and summer 1945 schemes. Individual cars $24.98; two-packs $46.98. January 2005. Ready-to-run. Wm. K. Walthers, Inc. Pennsylvania RR class B60b baggage cars. Pennsylvania RR, Long Island RR, Norfolk & Western, and Penn Central. Models feature balloon-style roof, prototype-specific trucks, and car-number decals. Available with and without rooftop vents. May 2005. $34.98 each. Ready-to-run. Wm. K. Walthers, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:57:53 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com And I wish that we N scalers had some more options like yours.... Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Ted Andrews" Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 > > Guys: > > One question. What is the little black box that is included with the > > engine? > > It is about the size of a small cigarette lighter and has the BLI logo on > > it. Any ideas? > > > > TIA > > > > Ted Andrews > Ted, > > Its the "magic wand" that lets you adjust volume and reset the engine w/o > taking the tender apart. Boy, I wish the GG1, T1 and M1 had that! > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:00:12 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Good Evening PRR Listers: What would be the most plentiful gondola classes that the PRR would have = had in the 1940's and 1950's? I am thinking of the G22, G26 and G31. = Would those have been the top 3? TIA! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:47:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/590/Wed Nov 17 16:03:52 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted you may want to put the years you are interested into the top 30 class list here. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/index.html and see what comes out. I think Bruce Smith set this up but am not sure. For example 1945 returned the following results Class Quantity Car Type GS 24883 Gondola GRA 13386 Gondola GR 8089 Gondola G22 5141 Gondola G27 4498 Gondola G25 2475 Gondola G29 2000 Gondola G28 1898 Gondola G26 1650 Gondola G30 1000 Gondola Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:00 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Good Evening PRR Listers: What would be the most plentiful gondola classes that the PRR would have had in the 1940's and 1950's? I am thinking of the G22, G26 and G31. Would those have been the top 3? TIA! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lawrence Rast" Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:14:52 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You are SPOT ON on this one Bruce. MY M1 is running around wonderfully, = but too LOUD, right now, as I write this. BTW, how good to see you posting. Have been watching things and have = kept you in my prayers. Take care of yourself. Lawrence ----- Original Message -----=20 From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu=20 To: Ted Andrews=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 > Guys: > One question. What is the little black box that is included with the > engine? > It is about the size of a small cigarette lighter and has the BLI = logo on > it. Any ideas? > > TIA > > Ted Andrews Ted, Its the "magic wand" that lets you adjust volume and reset the engine = w/o taking the tender apart. Boy, I wish the GG1, T1 and M1 had that! Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pennsy Announcements Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:44:33 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was waiting for one of the other spfs who attended Trainfest to post this. I was a little reluctant to do so since I now work for Walthers, but apparently Randy,Pete, et al weren't there or are traveling. But while you are at it, don't forget the converted troop kitchen-express car ala CB&Q. Due out in April. Gotta have that if you are doing a Chicago and East PRR train with headend equipment. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 2:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pennsy Announcements > We knew these were coming... > > According to trains.com they were finally announced at TrainFest last > weekend, though the Walthers site does not yet list part numbers or > show a press release. > > --------------(snip from trains.com)----------------- > > Pennsylvania RR class R50B express refrigerator cars. New paint > schemes. 1936-1938 and summer 1945 schemes. Individual cars $24.98; > two-packs $46.98. January 2005. Ready-to-run. Wm. K. Walthers, Inc. > > Pennsylvania RR class B60b baggage cars. Pennsylvania RR, Long Island > RR, Norfolk & Western, and Penn Central. Models feature balloon-style > roof, prototype-specific trucks, and car-number decals. Available with > and without rooftop vents. May 2005. $34.98 each. Ready-to-run. Wm. K. > Walthers, Inc. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Ted Andrews" , "PRR Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:33:04 -0500 To: "Brian J Carlson" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 18, 2004, at 10:47 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote: > Ted you may want to put the years you are interested into the top 30 > class > list here. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/index.html > and see what comes out. I think Bruce Smith set this up but am not > sure. Absolutely... that page on my site has Bruce Smith's "Top 30 Classes" of freight equipment over the years, plus I've logged the entire 1954 roster by class with pie chart comparisons. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:46:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone check to see how accurrate the contours of the boiler are for the BLI K4? When I compared to the Bachmann K4 and the PFM K4, they are all a little different. I am wondering which one is correct. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:56:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 8th Annual PRR Modelers Needs Assessment Survey - From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6B667CFE-3A2A-11D9-B0AF-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com LAST CALL!!! Begin forwarded message: Please respond OFF-LIST to jerry@pennsyrr.com . Please put your modeled scale in the SUBJECT after the dash. It's that time of year again, folks! Time to vote for the three models you would like to see produced in your scale in several categories. Only the first three entries in each category will be counted. Others will be discarded. If you know the PRR class for an item, use it (ex. EP22). Otherwise use the manufacturer's model (ex. EMD E8). Following your answer, feel free to indicate if you would purchase this item in quantity, accept brass as an acceptable model, etc. Ballots are open through 5 p.m., Friday, November 19th. I will then summarize the results. Each year many of our top requests make it to the assembly line. 2004 has been a great year for Pennsy and it looks to continue that way into 2005. You can view last years results in the list archives ( http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ ). Search for "Survey Results" and scroll down to 11/22/03 to a post by me. And now, the ballot: ---------------------------------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (If desiring MP-series variants, please put under passenger equipment as the PRR carried these on the passenger roster.) 1. 2. 3. DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. STRUCTURES DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. OTHER DESIRED: 1. 2. 3. Thank you for your participation! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:46:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTNpyeMuGOMohznQ6Ceh32c7APPhAAlp7OQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com It's a magnet. It activates a reed relay inside the tender just behind the slope sheet, which resets the decoder to factory default values. You no long need to take the tender shell off, or remove hidden panels, or reprogram a CV. Its one of the good ideas inaugurated with this loco. Most of the new ideas IMHO are losers. I hate the new tender attachment mechanism and the vertical DCC jack. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 2:38 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 Guys: I just got mine from Jerry today. I took an extra long lunch hour (have to burn off vacation time before the end of the year) to assemble and run it. First of all, the K-4 is made in Korea. It assemble well (I heeded some of the advice from Jerry and others on the list). My tender was properly spelled. It ran great! Sound is fantastic. I couple a string of P70s and it was a sight to behold. One question. What is the little black box that is included with the engine? It is about the size of a small cigarette lighter and has the BLI logo on it. Any ideas? TIA Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:03:49 +0000 >From: Jerry @ Pennsy >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:33:04 -0500 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:21:50 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:40:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTOP2GpShAZe8L1QMyns1HrpYU6NwABNjPQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I got a replacement tender for my K4 yesterday - one that says PENNSYLVANIA on BOTH sides. I had to put the traction tire driver on to get the pulling capacity I need on the clubs long, curving mountain grades. But having done that, The K4 pulls as I had hoped. The train was the Juniata: B60b - Bethlehem (modified) B60b - Bethlehem (modified) X29 express - red caboose BM70M - AHM kitbashed 28-1 "Croyden" - AHM 12-1 kitbashed 28-1 "Big Walnut" - AHM 12-1 kitbashed Parlor/lounge club "Poor Richard Club" - AHM 12-1 kitbashed D78r - Walthers metal side with ECW roof and brass floor and Keystone Model Works trucks(11.5 oz!!) P70fr - ECW kitbash P70r - ECW kitbash P70r - ECW kitbash P70 - ECW kitbash Now to put a scale Accumate on the pilot. I appreciate the Kadee, but it looks awful! And then weather the loco. It still look plastic. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:47:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, et al., Re: What would be the most plentiful gondola classes that the PRR would have had in the 1940's and 1950's? See Table 1 PRR Gondola Timelines and Quantities September 2003 TKM No. 2 (pg 7 PDF edition). At: http://www.prrths.com/Downloads/TKM%20No.%202%2009-03%20PDF.pdf The most prevalent gons during the 1940s time period were the GR, GRA, GS, G22, G27, and G29. Modeling of all these classes has been covered in various issues of TKM. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:40:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS 2005 Annual Meeting From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <000201c4ce50$88cfecd0$6401a8c0@ABBuchan> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 2005 Society annual meeting is looking spectacular! The Keystone eNews just announced the TENTATIVE programs, as follows... On Friday, November 19, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Al Buchan wrote: > Mechanical Department Operations =96 Bob Watson,=A0MW Department=20 > Operations =96 Al Buchan, The PRR in Williamsport =96 William Bigler, = The=20 > PRR in Renovo =96 Greg Stone,Enola Yard 100 years=96 Dan Cupper, = Denholm =96=20 > Don Wood, The PRR Stubenville to Rockville from Train 32 =96 John=20 > Frantz, Steam (class to be determined) =96 Dick Adams, Railroad Movies=20= > of John R. Crosby =96 Mike Crosby, Railroad Photography =96 Stan = Trzoniec,=20 > Locomotive Builders Plates =96 Elmer Steuernagel, Modeling PRR Flat = Cars=20 > =96 Elden Gatwood, Modeling Heavy Weight Pullmans =96 Bruce Smith and=20= > Garry Spear,Modeling Committee Forum =96 Elden Gatwood, and Lewistown=20= > Archives Report/Discussion =96BobJohnson. Other programs and two field=20= > trips area also being looked into. The field trips include Enola Yard=20= > and the steel mill at Highspire I'm thrilled to see three sessions dedicated to modeling. Dan Cupper's=20= book on Enola should be out by then, which will go along with his=20 presentation, and Triumph VII, on the Northern Region, will be released=20= in a few weeks, which will tie in nicely with the sessions on=20 Williamsport and Renovo. The Northern Central Chapter is doing layout tours and there are=20 already 8 layouts on the schedule, with at least 2 more expected. This=20= would be the largest Camp Hill layout tour to date. Scales range from N=20= to G. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:05:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Brian, Jerry and the List: > > Thank you for the answer and the direction to the website. I had forgotten > about that database on Jerry's site. Before I posted my question, I was > thinking of adding: "I apologize for the simplicity of the question." > Well....I should have!! > > Once again, thanks. I will now buy a 12-pack set of the Bowser GS > gondolas. Ted, Why not buy a few of the F&C GS kits? IIRC you can get 2 packs in poly bogs for about $12 if you play the sales right... that's like $6 a CAR! Then order a few of the even better Sunshine kits. These have really nice interiors as well. I will use teh F&C cars for loaded cars and the Sunshines for empties, or loads where you can see the interior. A reminder that the Bowser GS, while not "incorrect" models the very early version of this car and needs to be reworked to be correct for most of our layouts. Regards Bruce Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:48:18 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Andy and all. If a coupler needs to be replaced because it's too large, and you want a more "scale" sized one, what's wrong with Kadee's #58? The only time I use something other than a Kadee is when I "need" a non-metal coupler. I've even been so bad as to drill a hole in the coupler shank right behind the "head" of the coupler, and then cut the back end off; to mount it in a pilot. It don't "center automatically", but then, neither does the prototype. Not a real difficult procedure. You can then attach the coupler with a pin. Or if the drilled hole is #60 for a 00-90, you can use a screw mount. I say this only because I thought the AccuMate/AccuRail couplers were plastic. (I don't have any in front of me). Also, years ago, a plastic coupler was a nice idea for locos for double heading, etc. But plastic breaks far easier than Kadee metal. I've seen 35 car trains break when a plastic coupler breaks. I've never seen a Kadee break in the shank. The small inconvenience of a lost spring occasionally doesn't bother me that much. Sorry if this is "off PRR", but it is related; and IMHO only. LOL Andy Miller wrote: >Now to put a scale Accumate on the pilot. I appreciate the Kadee, but it >looks awful! And then weather the loco. It still look plastic. > >regards, > >Andy Miller > Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 and Organic Gardener ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:08:39 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Morgan, Thanx. The 58 is probably a very good choice. However, whichever I use, I will have to shorten the shank or move the mounting hole back because the coupler sticks out way too far. If I use a 58, I will need to either reverse the gladhand or remove it. The Accumates can be assembled without the gladhand. I also like them because of the scale draft gear. While plastic, they seem to be much stronger than other plastic Kadee knockoffs. I occasionally run 50-60 car freight up steep grades and have never broken one. I have broken (and no longer use) McHenrys, Bachmanns, IMs, and others, but never an Accumate. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Morgan Bilbo [mailto:pennsynut@isp.com] Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 12:48 PM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: Andy Miller; PENNSYmodeler Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought Hi Andy and all. If a coupler needs to be replaced because it's too large, and you want a more "scale" sized one, what's wrong with Kadee's #58? The only time I use something other than a Kadee is when I "need" a non-metal coupler. I've even been so bad as to drill a hole in the coupler shank right behind the "head" of the coupler, and then cut the back end off; to mount it in a pilot. It don't "center automatically", but then, neither does the prototype. Not a real difficult procedure. You can then attach the coupler with a pin. Or if the drilled hole is #60 for a 00-90, you can use a screw mount. I say this only because I thought the AccuMate/AccuRail couplers were plastic. (I don't have any in front of me). Also, years ago, a plastic coupler was a nice idea for locos for double heading, etc. But plastic breaks far easier than Kadee metal. I've seen 35 car trains break when a plastic coupler breaks. I've never seen a Kadee break in the shank. The small inconvenience of a lost spring occasionally doesn't bother me that much. Sorry if this is "off PRR", but it is related; and IMHO only. LOL Andy Miller wrote: Now to put a scale Accumate on the pilot. I appreciate the Kadee, but it looks awful! And then weather the loco. It still look plastic. regards, Andy Miller Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 and Organic Gardener ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:12:30 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ANDY -- Excellent response. I'm glad you didn't take this as anything but a friendly suggestion. IMHO Now, as to that "shortening". Can you drill a hole, etc. as I suggested? I did do this on an old Bowser, and it does work. Also, on the Athearn L2. (Now I stuck in a PRR related word). LOL Morgan, a SPF and PRRTHS #1204 Andy Miller wrote: > Morgan, > > Thanx. The 58 is probably a very good choice. However, whichever I > use, I will have to shorten the shank or move the mounting hole back > because the coupler sticks out way too far. If I use a 58, I will > need to either reverse the gladhand or remove it. The Accumates can > be assembled without the gladhand. I also like them because of the > scale draft gear. While plastic, they seem to be much stronger than > other plastic Kadee knockoffs. I occasionally run 50-60 car freight > up steep grades and have never broken one. I have broken (and no > longer use) McHenrys, Bachmanns, IMs, and others, but never an Accumate. > > regards, > > Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:37:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <419E378E.2010403@isp.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTOY/DIhFmWaNSOSkCgwoWRaGQ5JQAAtJGQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The biggest problem I may have with shortening the coupler is making sure that when close coupled, the gladhand of the mating coupler does not strike the pilot. I shortened many E and F unit diesel pilot couplers by turning the glad hand 180 degrees and pulling the coupler well back into the pilot. I need to carve a notch in the bottom of the pilot to clear the mating gladhand. While there is a prototype for this on diesel pilots (it was used to clear signal relay boxes and dragging equipment detectors), I don't recall ever having seen such a notch under the pilot of a steamer. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Morgan Bilbo [mailto:PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com] Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:13 PM To: Andy Miller Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought ANDY -- Excellent response. I'm glad you didn't take this as anything but a friendly suggestion. IMHO Now, as to that "shortening". Can you drill a hole, etc. as I suggested? I did do this on an old Bowser, and it does work. Also, on the Athearn L2. (Now I stuck in a PRR related word). LOL Morgan, a SPF and PRRTHS #1204 Andy Miller wrote: > Morgan, > > Thanx. The 58 is probably a very good choice. However, whichever I > use, I will have to shorten the shank or move the mounting hole back > because the coupler sticks out way too far. If I use a 58, I will > need to either reverse the gladhand or remove it. The Accumates can > be assembled without the gladhand. I also like them because of the > scale draft gear. While plastic, they seem to be much stronger than > other plastic Kadee knockoffs. I occasionally run 50-60 car freight > up steep grades and have never broken one. I have broken (and no > longer use) McHenrys, Bachmanns, IMs, and others, but never an Accumate. > > regards, > > Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:45:35 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Transfer Station Question Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:12:20 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Obs on Cincinatti Ltd From: John Sheets From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:24:29 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy, are you refering to the KD coupler trip pin as the Glad Hand that interfers? I know there is a good percentage of modelers that actually use those for auto uncoupling which is what their intended purpose is but on a scale model, at least my own personal scale models, nowadays I usually snip them off. Nothing worse than seeing a scale model in a photo with a pototype view with that pin sticking out. Its the choice I make. I like using Kadee plastic air hoses instead.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:56:14 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary Mittner wrote: >Andy, > > are you refering to the KD coupler trip pin as the Glad Hand that >interfers? I know there is a good percentage of modelers that actually >use those for auto uncoupling which is what their intended purpose is >but on a scale model, at least my own personal scale models, nowadays I >usually snip them off. Nothing worse than seeing a scale model in a >photo with a pototype view with that pin sticking out. Its the choice I >make. I like using Kadee plastic air hoses instead.....Gary > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > Andy's not concerned about the "pin/gladhand" on the engine, he's concerned about the one on the car's coupled to the engine. Their gladhand/pin sticks out and touches the pilot of the engine. Not too cool to cut off all the glad hands on all the cars. LOL I tried that with the plastic hoses, but they don't hold on too well. Too many broke off, or just plain fell off. It's not the glue, it's the bumping of engines and cars together. Again, that hose bumps into the pilot. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Obs on Cincinatti Ltd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:40:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTObDL2METYA6aJTH6Iu7ADS4ltPAAC0EvQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There were 7 such cars built for all the big name trains other than the Broadway. They bore the names of past PRR presidents. Two were for the Cincy Ltd, two for the Liberty Ltd, and three for the Spirit of St Louis. They had two drawing rooms and one double bedroom where the Bway cars had two master suites. I have kit bashed one (SAMUEL REA) from an AHM Bway obs using windows from a 10-6. There was also an all coach lounge variant used on the Indianapolis Ltd. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John Sheets Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 2:12 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Obs on Cincinatti Ltd Saw a picture of the square tailed lightweight Obs on the Cincinnati Ltd, it looks similar in design to the Broadway Obs, anybody know the configuration and names of this (these) cars ? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Obs on Cincinatti Ltd Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:39:09 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: Saw a picture of the square tailed lightweight Obs on the Cincinnati Ltd, it looks similar in design to the Broadway Obs, anybody know the configuration and names of this (these) cars ? They were the William Wallace Atterbury and Samuel Rea, both class POS211. A complete story of the Cincinnati Limited by passenger car guru Chuck Blardone can be found in the Society's latest book "The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati" by Rick Tipton and Chuck, available at the e-Store at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:46:37 -0600 Message-ID: <2DBCFFBBFD2A404885EE492DEF5B64340164C0D1@tamugex1.tamug.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI K-4, coupler thought Thread-Index: AcTOc1UtrX6+O4aEQg+MGQefL1X+2gABYMgu From: "Donald Harper" To: "Morgan Bilbo" , , Cc: "Gary Mittner" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I will be there Don -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com on behalf of Morgan Bilbo Sent: Fri 11/19/2004 1:56 PM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: Gary Mittner Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] My first impression of the BLI = K-4, coupler thought Gary Mittner wrote: >Andy, > > are you refering to the KD coupler trip pin as the Glad Hand that >interfers? I know there is a good percentage of modelers that actually >use those for auto uncoupling which is what their intended purpose is >but on a scale model, at least my own personal scale models, nowadays I >usually snip them off. Nothing worse than seeing a scale model in a >photo with a pototype view with that pin sticking out. Its the choice I >make. I like using Kadee plastic air hoses instead.....Gary =20 > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work! > >PRR K4s Loco Pics: >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > >PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > >PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > =20 > Andy's not concerned about the "pin/gladhand" on the engine, he's=20 concerned about the one on the car's coupled to the engine. Their=20 gladhand/pin sticks out and touches the pilot of the engine. Not too cool to cut off all the glad hands on all the cars. LOL I tried that with the plastic hoses, but they don't hold on too well. =20 Too many broke off, or just plain fell off. It's not the glue, it's the = bumping of engines and cars together. Again, that hose bumps into the=20 pilot. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 13:30:05 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] 110P75a more common than 130P75 From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg and COLA Pix Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:02:50 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, This week i've posted some pictures on my website that=20 should interest a few people. One page has 3 shots of the=20 CTC machine inside COLA Tower while in service. www.mountvernonshops.com/PRRPix3.html Also, there is a page that features Harrsiburg Station=20 during the week of October 18th, 1954. Two pictures are in=20 color. They may have shiftedm but color pictures of an=20 MPB54 and a B! "Rat"are still neat to see. www.mountvernonshops.com/PRRPix4.html Enjoy! Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in O, HO & N Scale Structures for the Pennsy=20 modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:17:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg and COLA Pix MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi John, Great shots of the US&S machine. I do belive it was a 150 lever machine.Even though Cola is closed,I wonder if the CTC machine is still intact inside the tower? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:32:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/19/2004 9:08:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, ted_andrews@msn.com writes: Once again, thanks. I will now buy a 12-pack set of the Bowser GS gondolas. Ted, becareful. These have early brake configuration. Everything is on the right hand side of the end as opposed to the standardize left hand side. And it is a ton of work to change the brake staff, etc. So depending on the era you are modeling or is you can live with the wrong brake setup you may want to look for resin kits. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] 110P75a more common than 130P75 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:07:31 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c10e41da793f725c47957808761266fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.90 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Doug--Well done without the article in front of you! I was reviewing the article to make a similar input. Let me add a couple of minor things. > > There were 102 tenders with an approximate capacity of > 13,000 gallons. 100 were built for class I1s engines > as 130F82. Two were built for class K5. Over the > years, all were converted to class 130P75 for use with > K4s and K5 engines by 1949. > The I1's needed more coal and water capacity than their original 90F82 could provide, and many of the non-Baldwin K4's needed more than their original 7000 gal. tenders could provide, so the 90F82 was converted to 90P75. Although the intent was to use the 130P75 with K4's as they had stokers added, some appeared behind L1s (I haven't seen one of those) and M1 classes. Some of the M1's which got them were 6810, 6811, 6845, and 6861. > > As Bruce mentioned, at least four tenders were > reconverted to 130F82 for use behind I1sa engines in > the early 50s. > 4524 was one of these. > > In the early 50s, some 110P75a became class 110F82 for > use with I1sa engines. > 4330 was one example. From the photo evidence these were popular on the Elmira branch since the bigger 210F82's are not seen north of Southport. BLI has lots of possibilities when deciding what to put behind an I1. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: abendschein@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg and COLA Pix Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:33:07 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gondola Question Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 11:27:09 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al, Jerry, Bruce and all who responded to my question: Thank you for all of your comments and advise. I thought that I was out = of the woods by getting the Bowser GS. However, it looks like there is = lots to do to make it prototypical for post 1910 use.=20 I will be looking into the Sunshine and F&G cars. They will be easy and = fast to build. Westerfield GRA and G22 cars are also on the list. Once again, Thanks! Ted ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Survey Results -- Need Scale Info From Some Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:39:19 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Survey results have been tabulated, pending five more ballots that were returned without indication of scale. I have e-mailed those folks and will give them a little longer to respond. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:30:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Window shades for Walthers Pullman,12-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List, Can anyone tell me what color were the window shades on the green Pullman Heavyweight 12-1 sleepers? I just bought the new Walthers sleeper today and I want to add shades to the windows. I'm going to use cardstock as window shades. Thanks in advance.... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:31:38 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] 90P75 orgins? From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] K4 question Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 18:18:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, How late in time were the K4s used to head at least some intercity passenger trains, for instance with P85s? Mid-Fifties? Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 17:18:21 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: [PRR] Tender Thread X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Fellow SPF's I would like to ask this question. And I keep it simple. I know (and this is oversimple), that the height of the tenders was determined by the height of the engine itself. So, if a tender was swapped from a freight engine to a passenger engine and vice versa, or from hand fired to stoker fired and vice versa (forget for the moment if they ever did go from stoker to hand), how did they raise or lower the deck? The installation of a stoker may be the answer?; but if they didn't have a stoker, why couldn't the fireman just step from tender up or down to the engine? Duh! Or the apron be on a slope for that matter? Not having ever been a fireman or watched a fireman when I did ride a steamer (when I was a kid), I can't picture in my mind how this all works. I apologize if this has been covered before, or if it's over simple. I may be a SPF, and have crawled all over many steam engines, but I never really thought about this until that last message from Doug Kisala and mentioning tender swap from K4 to L1/I1 and ? vice versa? Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:21:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender Thread From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Morngan asks: > I know (and this is oversimple), that the height of the tenders was > determined by the height of the engine itself. Technically, its not the height of the tender, but the height of the tender DECK. > So, if a tender was > swapped from a freight engine to a passenger engine and vice versa, or > from hand fired to stoker fired and vice versa (forget for the moment if > they ever did go from stoker to hand), how did they raise or lower the > deck? Hand fired K4 - 70" deck Stoker K4 - 75" deck I1s - 82" deck. Modifications up were easy, often accomplished by simply building a false deck at the correct height. Modifications down required removing the tender deck, and replacing it with a lover deck. Since this also set the bottom of the coal bin, the floor had to be modified all the way to the rear of the coal space. The tender deck and loco deck needed to be at the same height or it would be extremely dangerouos. When shovel coal, the fireman did not need to worry about a sloped lcoo apron! Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:49:35 -0600 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender Thread X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank you, Bruce and Evan. Between both of your eMails, I now understand. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:35:37 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Walthers PRR heavyweight diner From: Frederick Ripley From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations #2 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:35:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Future Conventions Group: This thread got started on PRR-FAX as a "Future Conventions" thread. I picked it up and took it off line. Sorry to be so slow in getting back to you. I've been terribly busy, on the road, have had foot surgery, and been back on the road 3 days later (NRHS meeting in Rochester). Several things to discuss here: I'm including PRR-Talk & PRR-FAX another time or two on this list, unless the list masters prefer I don't. However, please, please, direct replies to me off-line - I will consolidate. Looking for more interested participants. Again, please respond to me off-line. I'll consolidate replies and send summary to the group. 1. Please remove Cprrboss@aol.com from the Future Conventions distributions list for all future e-mails. If anyone else wants to be removed, please let me (us) know. 2. I have received considerable interest from the 2 year old PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter, some interest from Buffalo (no chapter), and one inquiry from Rochester NY (near Buffalo, and one or two from NJ. 3. Conventions are scheduled through 2007 in Pittsburgh, I believe. As I understand it, we would then go back to Camp Hill for a couple years, due to physical locations of large numbers of members and both their and our experience holding our conventions there. 4. Would all of you (including PRR-Talk/PRR-Fax help me put together a list of past convention locations by year, beginning with the first Altoona convention (of 2) in the '90's? I believe it was Altoona, Wilmington, Baltimore, Camp Hill (once or twice), Pittsburgh, Camp Hill, Altoona again, Camp Hill again (more than once), south of Philly, Cincinnati. But I'm sure I'm forgetting some and have them out of order. I'd like to get locations and year starting early '90's, then work backwards from there. Perhaps the national has a master list? 5. My personal objectives for this group are three-fold as follows: a. New members for PRRT&HS b. New chapter(s) c. One or more future convention locations 6. With those in mind, we need a broader title. Suggestions? Enough to think about for now. I'll get back to you much sooner this time - promise! Bill Bigler - 4915 wbigler@stny.rr.com Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <8CC73DFB-3C29-11D9-9E6D-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] "Boys N Their Toys Tour IV" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:55:13 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Today was the fourth year I put together a convoy to attend layout open houses in the greater Philly area. Actually, there is an informal group of southeastern Pa., northeastern Md., northern Del., and southern NJ layouts that open over five weeks every November. There are over 100 layouts involved. Once the schedule is published, I find a day that there are several open that are in geographic proximity to each other to make such a trip possible This year we had 18 people in four vehicles. We departed York, Pa., at 9 a.m. and returned about 7:15 p.m. We visited Bill Kachel in Kennett Square, Pa., the NorDel Model RR Club in Hockessin, Del., Joe Walters in Bear, Del., Carl Huth in Bear, Del., Mike Strunk in Elkton, Md., and Bob Norman in Elkton, Md. Those who joined in our trip would like to thank all of the participating layouts, many of who are on this list. This years "favorite visit" goes to Bill Kachel -- no surprise here -- with his PRR layout and outstanding catenary. Second place to Carl Huth with an outstanding multi-deck Reading layout designed for operations. The scenery is only at the shell stage, but this is going to be an awesome layout when completed. Well worth a visit. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:02:51 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender Thread From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] October and November TKM Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:49:12 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Our apologies but we continue to have problems with our server US LEC TO VIEW THE OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER ISSUES OF TKM CLICK BELOW http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._16_11-04_PDF.pdf Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] R50b Question Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:56:41 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com PRR-Listers: Was the R50b Reefer exclusively found on passenger and mail trains or = were they sometimes found on freights such as reefer or perishable = produce trains? Thanks in advance! Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <7A7ED524-3C7B-11D9-88D4-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] 8th Annual Survey Results (LONG) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 06:41:41 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com IF RESPONDING, please do not include the original message! Here are the results of the 8th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk"=20 Modeling Needs Survey! Respondents were asked to list their top three desired models within=20 each classification. Any additional entries within a classification=20 were discarded. Products are in order of votes received WITHOUT consideration of=20 multiple quantities desired per vote, though some are noted (one line=20 of comment per vote). Those receiving an equal number of votes are in=20 no particular order. Note that the results are not weighted. That is, a first place vote for=20= one model garners as much recognition as a third place vote for another=20= model. Cumulatively, though, this survey recognizes the most desired=20 models overall. I may consider a weighting system for future surveys if=20= a fair method can be developed. Some of the answers were subject to interpretation. I did the best I=20 could! Assume ready-to-run, plastic, dcc friendly (if powered), unless=20 otherwise noted. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DHO = SCALE=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (25) H8/H9/H10 TA: 4-5 RW: In quantity (23) I1s/I1sa [Believed to be coming from Broadway Limited Imports] RW: In quantity (16) L1s [Believed to be coming from Life Like] CB: 2+ RW: In quantity (6) Q2 TA: 3 (4) H6/H6sb DV: Several (3) S2 (3) B6s/B6sb CB: several (2) E6s CB: several (2) E5s (2) Q1 (2) S1 (2) K4 Streamlined (1) C1 (1) A5 (1) E3/E5 (1) D16sb (1) small, early steam (1) N2sa (1) N1s ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (If desiring MP-series variants, please put under passenger equipment=A0= as the PRR carried these on the passenger roster.)=A0 (22) P5 series BS: 10 RW: In quantity (9) E44 RW: In quantity (5) B1 "Rat" RW: In quantity (2) R1 (1) GG1 (noting that BLI did not get original vents correct) (1) DD1 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (13) BF15/BF16 Baldwin DR 4-4-15/RF16 Shark RW: In quantity (13) BP60/BH50 Baldwin DR 12-8-30 Centipede TA: 2 RW: In quantity (6) FS20m FM H-20-44 (6) BS24/BS24m Baldwin RT-624 (4) BP20 Baldwin DR 6-4-20 Passenger Shark RW: In quantity (2) GF25a GE U25c TA: 3 (2) LS25 Lima T2500 (1) BS7 Baldwin DS 4-4-7.5 (1) EFS17m EMD GP9b (1) AF15 Alco FA-1/FB-1 (1) BS6a Baldwin DS 4-4-6 (1) BS7/BS7m Baldwin DS 4-4-7.5 (1) EF25a EMD SD35 (1) EF30a EMD SD40 (1) EP20, Phase II body EMD E7 (1) AS10a Alco T6 (1) AS16 Alco RS-3 (1) ES6 EMD SW1 (1) FS12 FM H-12-44 =A0 FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (5) G31/G31a/G31b (3) K8 (3) H25 PR: 20 (3) H30/H30a TA: 4 RW: In quantity (3) X23 RW: In quantity (3) X58 (2) F22 (2) GLca (2) G22 TA: 6 (2) G27 (2) G44/G44a (2) H35 (2) X26c (2) X29b (1) FM (1) FD1 (1) F34 (1) F36 (1) F39 (1) H36 (1) GRa TA: 12 (1) G26 (1) G32 (1) G34 (1) G36 (1) G41 (1) XL (1) X28 (1) X29 with patch plates (1) X29f (1) X30 (1) X35 (1) X38 (1) X41b (1) X46 (1) X50/51/56 (1) K7 RW: In quantity, single deck (1) PRR & N&W Open Hoppers (1) Well type flat =A0 PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (16) MP54 MU equipment CB: 12+ WB: 2+ BS: 8-10 RW: In quantity (7) P70 RW: In quantity (4) POS21/POS211 series (3) Pullman 6-6 heavyweight sleeper (3) MP85 WB: 4+ RW: In quantity (3) Parlor 28-1 CB: Several (2) B60 (2) BM70k (2) BM70n TA: 4-5 (2) Diner, unspecified (2) POC85 (2) P70gs (2) P70k (1) lightweight Budd equipment CB: 6+ (1) ACF/Budd Twin Unit Diners TA: 2-3 (1) PS31L or PS13L mid-train lounge TA: 3-4 (1) 70' baggage car [???] (1) BM70ka (1) BM70m (1) BM70 series (1) D70 (1) D78 rebuild (1) D85 (1) P70fa (1) PBM70a (1) PS6L "Falls" series (1) PS21 "Inn" series (1) PS106 (1) PS124 (1) PS442 (1) _______ "BROOK" sleeper, pre-war (1) GEG350/OEG0 =A0 NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (9) N6b RW: In quantity (3) Russell double-track snow plow (3) GPa ballast hopper (3) NX23 cabin (2) Ballast cleaning train (1) Wire train (1) X23 MoW cars (1) KDRS-14 (1) ND RW: In quantity (1) N6 center cupola (1) N5c [Bowser] (1) Z74 business car CC: #120 modernized (1) Jordan Spreader (1) Track inspection car based on tracing E-96515 (1) Derrick car (1) wheel car (1) TM8 (1) U4 (1) Flanger STRUCTURES DESIRED:=A0 (9) Towers: generic Lines West (2), Rockville (1), Harris (1), Cola=20 (1), generic brick (1), West Slope (1) (3) Lines East signal bridge [Alkem Scale Models, Oregon Rail Supply] (2) mid-size passenger station - Sunbury, Northumberland, west slope (2) small town station (2) PRR-specific=A0steam- or transition- era=A0engine servicing = facilities (2) wood crossing shanty (2) freight house One cited Bill Neale's model (1)=A0Mid-sized Eastern standard brick passenger station and shelter of=20= late 19th century design (e.g., Wayne, PA) CB: Couple (1) TOFC platform/facility (1) PRR standard turntable (1) Enola coal tower (1) Denholm coal wharf (1) Elevated crossing shanty (1) Kit-bashable tower sections (1) telephone box (1) wood bay window tower (1) modular kit for flying junction (1) South Amboy enginehouse (1) Short 4-track stone arch bridges (1) heavy bridge work components OTHER DESIRED:=A0 (4) Dwarf position light signals (3) Position light signals (scale) (2) complete catenary kit, including poles, wire and instructions (2) F unit decals in correct size and color (2) switch machine castings (2) track pans (2) block limit signals/signs (2) station/tower sign kits (1) "plug and play" signal control system for=A0PRR position light=20 signals, with train detection circuitry option included (1) Lower quadrant position light signals [coming from ORS?] (1) Stonework sheets for retaining walls, etc (1) decal sets for freight cars to replace out-of-production Champ and Middle Division sets (1) PRR pipe railing stanchions (1) PRR china (scale) for superdetailing dining cars (1) Tug boat (1) Ferry boat (1) Trainphone antenna set for FS-16m (Atlas H-16-44) (1) 70 ton trucks (1) 90F82 tender (1) 90P75 tender (1) 90F75 tender (1) 110P75a tender (BLI separate from K4) DK: 4-6 (1) pnuematic pipe brackets and piping (interlocking plant) (1) DCC sound decoders w/correct PRR banshee and passenger whistles (1) Photo-etched signs and number plates (1) Affordable occupancy detectors (1) Affordable signal drivers (1) whistle posts (1) 2D-3P trucks =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DN = SCALE=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (10) K4s [Announced by Key Imports in brass] RT: Several (9) H8/H9/H10 [Announced by Key Imports in brass] JB: 3 (5) M1/M1a/M1b JB: 12 (5) I1s (4) B6sb RT: Several (3) L1s JB: 4 (3) E6 (1) G5 (1) C1 (1) G5 (1) K2 (1) S2 (1) F3c (1) D16sb ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (If desiring MP-series variants, please put under passenger equipment=A0= as the PRR carried these on the passenger roster.)=A0 (16) P5 series JB: 8-10 (9) GG1 [Announced by Key Imports in brass] JB: 8-10 (8) B1 "Rat" JB: 3 (7) E44 (1) L5 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (6) BP20 Passenger Shark RT: brass acceptable (4) BP60/BH50 Centipede RT: brass acceptable (4) EFS17m EMD GP9 (3) EF15 EMD F3 (3) EF15a EMD F7 (3) GS4 GE 44 ton (2) ES6 EMD SW/SW1 JB: 2 (2) EFP15 EMD FP7 (2) LS25 Lima T2500 (2) GF25a GE U25C (1) EF36 EMD SD45 (1) ES10 EMD NW2 (1) AF24 Alco RS27 (1) APS24ms Alco RSD-7 (1) AS10 Alco RS-1 (1) ____ Alco RS32 [???] =A0 FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (5) H30 covered hopper JB: 12+ (5) K7/K7a RT: many JB: JB: 36 (3) X58a/b/c (3) F30d (TrucTrain) JB: 30 (2) G39 (2) K8 (2) K9/K9a (2) X23 (1) F30 (1) F39 (1) G22 (1) G25 (1) GS (1) GR/GRa (1) G44 (1) G class gons (1) H21 clamshell (1) older H class hoppers (1) H33 (1) early H series covered hopper (1) K11 (1) 40' round roof box cars (1) XL (1) X29b (1) X31 (1) X56 (1) X60 PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (8) MP54 series JB: 6 (3) BM70m JB: 6 (3) R50b (3) D85c/D85d twin unit diner JB: 5 sets (3) P70 (2) B60 (2) D78 (2) PB70 (1) Twin Diners in "Fleet of Modernism" (1) Head end in "Fleet of Modernism" (1) BM70ka (1) BM70n (1) M70 (1) P70fa (1) P70fb [coming from Wheels Of Time] (1) P82 (1) heavyweight Pullman series (like HO Branchline/Walthers) (1) R60 (1) MP85 (1) More Centralia Car Shops lightweight cars (1) correct observation cars =A0 NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (6) N6b (6) N8 (4) Z74 business car (3) scale test cars (2) Track gang cars/XL camp cars (like HO Westerfield) (2) ND cabin (2) Ballast car (1) Wire train (1) N4 (1) U4 (1) Dynamometer car (1) Small steam powered crane (1) MoW crane/derrick (1) 250 ton wreck derrick (1) Sperry inspection car (1) PRR 493035 (flat w/elevating platform) [???] STRUCTURES DESIRED:=A0 (10) More towers: MG (2), Zoo (1), Harris (2), Rockville (2), Lemo (1) (3) Small to mid size stations, Middle Division, Williamsport, Sunbury (2) PRR design coal dock (1) Built up signals/bridges (Alkem) (1) Altoona passenger station (1) Harrisburg station [no, not your editor!] (1) Suburban wood station (Moorestown) (1) Altoona 4th street pedestrian bridge (1) PRR skewed stone arch bridges (1) wood bay window station (like HO American Limited New Freedom=20 Station) (1) wood tower (1) cold storage building (1) Cement plant (like Walthers in HO) (1) Small passenger shelter (1) Freight station (1) 4 track signal bridge (Alkem Scale Models) OTHER DESIRED:=A0 (3) Scale position light signals [coming] RT: Quantity purchase (2) TrucTrain trailers (2) PRR dwarf signals (2) switch machine castings (1) GEG415 (1) 1950's track surface equipment (1) Ferries (1) Tug boat (1) water plug (1) Station signs (1) Keystone shaped whistle posts (1) PRR cast crossbucks =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DS = SCALE=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 (1) H9 (1) B6 (1) E5 ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED:=A0 =A0 FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (1) H21 (1) X29 (1) GLa PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 (1) P70 =A0 NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED:=A0 STRUCTURES DESIRED:=A0 (1) Towers: Jacks OTHER DESIRED: ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:29:12 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: [PRRDelMarVa] Train 449 "The Cavalier"] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ANy commnets or information would be appreciated... I recall some commnets on this in the past but can't find it in the archived posts Jim McDaniel, Delmarva forwarder of messages -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [PRRDelMarVa] Train 449 "The Cavalier" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:57:15 -0000 From: "Jim Warsher" Reply-To: PRRDelMarVa@yahoogroups.com To: PRRDelMarVa@yahoogroups.com My friend has a Section booked in the 12-1 sleeper from Broad St. Phila to Cape Charles, Va., on Wed., Apr. 13, 1938 on this train. The note in the Official Guide says that the sleeper is open for occupancy at 10:00pm. There is another note which states that the sleeping car departs Broad St. at 10:50pm. The train 449 is scheduled to depart 30th St Stn at 11:19pm. Trn 449 left Penna Stn NY at 9:00pm. My questions devolve around this precept. There has to be an engine change somwhere here between A/C mtr and steam. Either at 30th St or Wilmington. It would make sense for the steam engine to back down into Broad St., pick up the sleeper and proceed to the west end of 30th St Stn in a pocket with the sleeper attached. When the A/C mtr head pins, come down and make up to the consist of #449 with the two [there is a 12-1 from Penna Stn NY, too] sleepers head out. It should not be more than a four or five car train, Something an E6 could handle easily. Can anyone on this list tell me if this was how it functioned or, if not, how it did function? I'd be curious to know what type of steam motive power was regularly assigned, as well. This for a historical novel in progress but I'd like to get the facts right, nonetheless, even though it's fiction. Many thanks to any and all respondents. JimW -- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/YSTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRDelMarVa/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRDelMarVa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:27:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Comments on Survey From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <92C3FD4B-3C92-11D9-B5FD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Looks like HO scale steam modelers will be very happy by this time next year... anticipating that two of the top three requests (I1, L1) will be announced or even shipped. And I gotta think someone is going to do the H class. The diesel field, in HO and N, continues to cry for Baldwin Centipedes and Passenger Sharks. How many years can we cry for these? And in electrics, both HO and N overwhelmingly want the P5 series. I've heard no rumors, but some manufacturer would do very well with plastic P5's. I think the drawback is that only the PRR had them, but the plus is that a lot of Pennsy modelers would buy these in multiples. Both scales are also increasing their desire for B1 "rat" switchers. In passenger equipment, both scales want the MP54 series more than anything else. I think 2004 has been an awesome year for HO scale and a decent year for N. While there aren't a lot of new announcements pending, 2005 certainly has potential, given the change in leadership in the industry (Broadway Limited, Branchline, Walthers). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR Talk" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b Question Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:14:03 -0600 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 21, 2004, at 11:56 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > Was the R50b Reefer exclusively found on passenger and mail trains or > were they sometimes found on freights such as reefer or perishable > produce trains? Ted, There is certainly good evidence that the R50B appeared in freight trains on occasion, although the most common use would have been passenger or mail and express trains. On the Octorao Branch, R50bs were distributed to the mushroom growers by local freights, but full cars were handled by passenger trains. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers PRR heavyweight diner Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 12:28:20 -0600 To: Frederick Ripley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 21, 2004, at 3:35 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Hello all, > > I apologize if this has been covered, but I was curious how > accurate the Walthers heavyweight diner (932-10154) is for the PRR. > > Thanks, > > Fred R. Fred, I haven't seen a reply on this yet, so I'll see what I can do. Bottom line is that it is not correct for a PRR diner. You may be able to use it for some 'visitors". I am looking into whether it can be used for an ACL diner that appeared on the PRR as part of the Florida Special and the summer version of the wartime Champion (which included heavyweight Pullmans) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:31:50 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Wilkes-Barre Roundhouse..........Valparaiso In roundhouse Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:12:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Survey Results Correction - N Scale Steam From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gregg Mahlkov caught a minor error in my tabulations... Under N Scale, Steam Locomotives, there were two entries for "(1) G5". It should have been one entry for "(2) G5". This would not have affected the top three, however. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] [Fwd: [PRRDelMarVa] Train 449 "The Cavalier"] Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:04:03 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The upper level of 30th st as we know it today went into operation in 1930. The lower level wasn't completed as we know it until the 50's I think. A track diagram of Broad from the late 30's shows the lower level for reference. It appears to be 2 tracks with one platform. Signaling appears to be 251 between Zoo and Arsenel. There is a hand operated tail track between the tracks at the north end of the platform, and a hand operated trailing-point crossover at the south end. Hardly seems like a convenient place to add headend cars and make an engine change. But to do so, the sleeper would have to be hauled via Arsenal the same way Wilmington locals go today. I suppose you could also pull the sleeper with a separate engine to the east limits of Zoo and push down the river line to the rear of the train. That could easily account for the 1/2 hour between 10:50 and 11:19. Longer distance, but perhaps operationally simpler. Is there any indication in the timetable they pulled the New York section into Broad and did the work there? Except for turning all the seats, that would be the ideal place to do the work. When they still used the West Philadelphia station, this would have been a trivial matter to add a headend car. The New York section would stop in the now-abandoned Grey's Ferry branch subway which was the station platform. The line from Broad joined right there at the south end of the platform, very close to where the current tunnels meet. The cutover from West Philadelphia station to the upperlevel of 30th st happened in 1930, but the cutover from West Phila/ Grey's Ferry branch to the Lower Level/ River line happened later. Not sure exactly when. The upper level was operational when the main building was a skeleton of girders. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR-FAX" ; Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 5:29 AM Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: [PRRDelMarVa] Train 449 "The Cavalier"] > > ANy commnets or information would be appreciated... I recall some > commnets on this in the past but can't find it in the archived posts > > Jim McDaniel, Delmarva forwarder of messages > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [PRRDelMarVa] Train 449 "The Cavalier" > Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:57:15 -0000 > From: "Jim Warsher" > Reply-To: PRRDelMarVa@yahoogroups.com > To: PRRDelMarVa@yahoogroups.com > > > > > My friend has a Section booked in the 12-1 sleeper from Broad St. > Phila to Cape Charles, Va., on Wed., Apr. 13, 1938 on this train. The > note in the > Official Guide says that the sleeper is open for occupancy at 10:00pm. > There is another note which states that the sleeping car departs Broad > St. at 10:50pm. The train 449 is scheduled to depart 30th St Stn at > 11:19pm. > Trn 449 left Penna Stn NY at 9:00pm. > > My questions devolve around this precept. There has to be an engine > change somwhere here between A/C mtr and steam. Either at 30th St or > Wilmington. It would make sense for the steam engine to back down into > Broad St., pick up the sleeper and proceed to the west end of 30th St > Stn in a pocket with the sleeper attached. When the A/C mtr head pins, > come down and make up to the consist of #449 with the two [there is a > 12-1 from Penna Stn NY, too] sleepers head out. It should not be more > than a four or five car train, Something an E6 could handle easily. > > Can anyone on this list tell me if this was how it functioned or, if > not, how it did function? I'd be curious to know what type of steam > motive power was regularly assigned, as well. This for a historical > novel in progress but I'd like to get the facts right, nonetheless, > even though it's fiction. > > Many thanks to any and all respondents. > > JimW > -- > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/YSTolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRDelMarVa/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRDelMarVa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:33:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Standard (LW) roundhouse designs X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/23/04 7:19:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:35:54 -0500 > From: "Fred in Vt." > Subject: Re: Wilkes-Barre Roundhouse..........Valparaiso In roundhouse > > > Ken &group, > > IIRC, was there not a USRA design that was used for some time? The > one at Crestline comes to mind; don't think this was restricted to Lines West > though. > There was a thead a while back that touched on the USRA influence on > structures; yet I cannot recall which list. > Variety in use of certain Architects would certainly cause > dissimilarities to occur. Then again, PRR seems to have had a basic Company Design for > most everything. The real test is to find who did the erecting, and from > which plans. This begins to sound like a scholarly attempt at the Hagley. Any > other thoughts? > > Fred Freitas > We out in Lines-West land examined this question back in 2001. We came to the following conclusions: 1. There were at least two standard designs of roundhouse built on Lines West around the USRA era. But we concluded that these are Lines West designs, not (as the Q2 book suggests) USRA designs. 2. One design is like Crestline, and the other (newer?) is like Bradford and Spruce Street Columbus. These two designs shared some characteristics; both were sized for "large" engines, had steel frameworks, a lot of concrete in the walls, and an integral vacuum system that gathered smoke from each stall and vented it out a tall smokestack. But the Bradford design has a two story outer wall, whereas the Crestline has a step in the back wall. 3. Certainly not all Lines West roundhouses were built to these designs. I have trouble being sure that either Columbus St. Clair Avenue or Winter St. Fort Wayne belong to these two groups -- I once had good evidence that St. Clair was built in the mid-Twenties. 4. We failed to find any evidence that the same designs were used on Lines East roundhouses -- but remember, this was the closing days of the Lines West organization. After 1922 would be a more auspicious period to look for LE and LW roundhouses from the same design. Bob Johnson is head of the PRRT&HS archiving effort. I believe he wrote, concerning the Crestline design: Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Note: this is at Girard outside of Youngstown -- RLT] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 [Note: this one was never built -- RLT] Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson Hope this answers some of your questions... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:33:39 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Standard (LW) roundhouse designs Fred Freitas wrote: "IIRC, was there not a USRA design that was used for some time? The one at Crestline comes to mind; don't think this was restricted to Lines West though. There was a thead a while back that touched on the USRA influence on structures; yet I cannot recall which list. Variety in use of certain Architects would certainly cause dissimilarities to occur. Then again, PRR seems to have had a basic Company Design for most everything. The real test is to find who did the erecting, and from which plans. This begins to sound like a scholarly attempt at the Hagley. Any other thoughts?" We out in Lines-West land examined this question back in 2001. We came to the following conclusions: 1. There were at least two standard designs of roundhouse built on Lines West around the USRA era. But we concluded that these are Lines West designs, not (as the Q2 book suggests) USRA designs. 2. One design is like Crestline, and the other (newer?) is like Bradford and Spruce Street Columbus. These two designs shared some characteristics; both were sized for "large" engines, had steel frameworks, a lot of concrete in the walls, and an integral vacuum system that gathered smoke from each stall and vented it out a tall smokestack. But the Bradford design has a two story outer wall, whereas the Crestline has a step in the back wall. 3. Certainly not all Lines West roundhouses were built to these designs. I have trouble being sure that either Columbus St. Clair Avenue or Winter St. Fort Wayne belong to these two groups -- I once had good evidence that St. Clair was built in the mid-Twenties. 4. We failed to find any evidence that the same designs were used on Lines East roundhouses -- but remember, this was the closing days of the Lines West organization. After 1922 would be a more auspicious period to look for LE and LW roundhouses from the same design. Bob Johnson is head of the PRRT&HS archiving effort. I believe he wrote, concerning the Crestline design: Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA structures From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:33:41 -0400 Greg and List, I've been following the discussion about "USRA" roundhouses with considerable interest. Is there any documented evidence that they were actually USRA designs? For example, any documents issued by USRA? Did any other railroad build them? Some years ago, after we rescued the drawings from the Pittsburgh Station, I found the drawings for these roundhouses in that collection. There was no reference on the drawings to USRA. The title block said "PRR Co. Western Lines, Type A Engine House, Office of Chief Engineer - Const., No. 18477". Dates for the various sheets ranged from June 15, 1918 to September 20, 1918. This was during the period of USRA control, and PLW would have had to get USRA approval to build anything. But, that doesn't make them USRA designs. I have assumed they were a Lines West standard design. The drawings show the following locations and number of stalls: Stark E.H., Canton - 30 Crestline E.H. - 30 Mosier E.H. - 21 [Note: this is at Girard outside of Youngstown -- RLT] Mingo Jct. E.H. - 15 Jeffersonville E.H. - 15 [Note: this one was never built -- RLT] Scully E.H. - 34 The design was such that 52 stalls would have made a full circle. There's no guarantee that all of these were actually built. Some notes from another source show that in 1919 work was stopped on Mosier, Mingo Jct., and Jeffersonville. It is also possible that other locations on PLW received this style of roundhouse. It was often the practice to issue separate sets of drawings for different locations, even when using a common design, instead of trying to note every design change and option on the same set of drawings. For example, there was a different set of drawings for Wellsville - a very similar design with 9 stalls, but built much closer to the turntable and with a stall angle that would have resulted in just 32 stalls for a full circle. Bob Johnson Hope this answers some of your questions... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:22:22 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Valpo Was: [PRR] Standard (LW) roundhouse designs The Valpo roundhouse was OLD. Pre USRA, Pre 1900. It looked like the Wilkes-Barre Roundhouse. The remains are weed covered and pushed down a hill. It was made from local red brick. I knew the man who was contracted with the demolition. They (the PRR) told him to demolish it and leave the remains. He disassembled the roof trusses and recycled some of them into a new house he was building as a center beam. At 12x12inches they were and still are very strong. The brick walls were simply pushed over the morain. The turn table was sent to Grand Rapids. It's the 75' turntable near downtown. The Pit was filled in with cinders and became visable again in 1977 when I took a shovel and scraped the top edge clean. The walls were concrete and the pit measured 18 inches thick. A metal detector confirmed the bearing in the middle. There was no "concrete pad" for the round house. Just a foundation around the parimeter. There was a "machine shop" behind (due west) of the roundhouse. It's pad and foundation is still there. About 5 years ago a local lumber company bought the land and laid 6 inches of gravel over the entire property. They built a large shed that if viewed at a distance looks like a roundhouse! Ken ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses and turntables Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:26 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <1a6.2bcdb02d.2ed4a443@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcTRal7GD7aTqUEyQrGTDUW8RydoMQAEZZUQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Speaking of roundhouses (almost): Some Pennsy terminals in smaller cities at the end of stub lines (e.g. Springfield, OH) didn't have roundhouses or engine servicing facilities and may not have even had wyes. I was told by a local resident that in Springfield, OH, there was a simple turntable to turn the (steam) locomotives so they could return back up the branch to a larger Pennsy facility (in this case Xenia, OH) where they would be serviced. Does anyone know more about the situation in Springfield or have any photos of same? Thanks. Douglas Kirkpatrick Medford, OR -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 6:34 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Standard (LW) roundhouse designs In a message dated 11/23/04 7:19:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:35:54 -0500 > From: "Fred in Vt." > Subject: Re: Wilkes-Barre Roundhouse..........Valparaiso In roundhouse > > > Ken &group, > > IIRC, was there not a USRA design that was used for some time? The > one at Crestline comes to mind; don't think this was restricted to Lines ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:02:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <85389962-3D71-11D9-8B6D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Harrisburg Steel Co. had several sidings at Harrisburg, but I am concerned here with the one the CT1000 1945 edition calls "Hbg. Steel Corp. No. 2". It's a trestle that parallels the mains and the industrial feeder track, just north of the State Street bridge. The remnants are still there today. You can go to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ and search on "Harrisburg Steel" and see some photos I took a few months ago. Vintage photos appear in the following: * This trestle appears in the background of a photo on page 100 of Pennsy Diesel Years 6 -- there appears to be a four-bay hopper, a covered hopper, and a box car spotted on the trestle. * The very end of the trestle can be viewed in the background of a shot on page 46 of Pennsy Steam Years 1. * Another photo appears on page 62 of Pennsy Steam Years 2 and provides a nice backdrop of the Harrisburg Steel sign with a Reading covered hopper on the trestle. I can understand the use of this type of trestle for transloading of hopper materials -- the hopper rides on top and dumps its load through to either dump trucks or perhaps narrow gauge hoppers within the plant. (It's confirmed that the plant had a narrow gauge line. I have maps showing most of the layout.) But why would a box car be on the trestle? (And I have seen more than one such photo.) I've never found any evidence of a building alongside this trestle. And there is another nearby siding at grade -- "Hbg. Steel Corp. No. 1", just to the east, enters the plant and splits into two tracks. Anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:49:24 -0500 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton wrote: > The Harrisburg Steel Co. had several sidings at Harrisburg, but I am > concerned here with "Hbg. Steel Corp. No. 2". It's a trestle that > parallels the mains and the industrial feeder track, just north of the > State Street bridge. > Why would a box car be on the trestle? (And I have seen more than one > such photo.) > Anyone? Jerry - Since boxcars were used to carry bulk loads such as grain (with barriers in the doors), could they not have been used to carry granular steel making additives? Just a thought. - godfrey hall ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:09:36 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. Thread-Index: AcTRjiAiAnWUC8eNRli/65uZ0C6wDgAAabdw From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Godfrey Hall" , "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" , "Fred Wertz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Nov 2004 19:09:36.0767 (UTC) FILETIME=[F961A0F0:01C4D18F] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I worked at a Zinc plant one summer. Surprisingly, the raw ore was = transported in box cars. I realize iron ore is heavy, but... -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Godfrey Hall Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:49 PM To: Jerry Britton Cc: PRR-Talk LIST; Fred Wertz; 1 godfrey hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. Jerry Britton wrote: > The Harrisburg Steel Co. had several sidings at Harrisburg, but I am=20 > concerned here with "Hbg. Steel Corp. No. 2". It's a trestle that=20 > parallels the mains and the industrial feeder track, just north of the = > State Street bridge. > Why would a box car be on the trestle? (And I have seen more than one=20 > such photo.) > Anyone? Jerry - Since boxcars were used to carry bulk loads such as grain (with barriers = in the doors), could they not have been used to carry granular steel=20 making additives? Just a thought. - godfrey hall ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:20:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This may all be coming together... On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 12:31 PM, (private response) wrote: > Some alloy agents are/were shipped in box cars like Chrome and=20 > Cobalt.=A0 These are/were very expensive materials and labor was still=20= > fairly cheap to shovel it out.=A0 In addition it was very heavy so the=20= > car wouldn 't be full.=A0 On site it would be more secure than when=20 > travelling in the public.=A0 Just a thought as I don't know the = products=20 > this steel company produced.=A0 > > Not that I am aware of but if the track was set up like coalyards with=20= > barriers between sections it could be pushed or shoveled out the door=20= > and dropped vertically into a section that would have that alloy agent=20= > in it.=A0 It still wouldn't be that far from the center of the car.=A0 = It=20 > wouldn't be that hard to have either a sheet metal fence or chute to=20= > redirect it back under the car as it slid down the metal. > On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 01:49 PM, Godfrey Hall wrote: > Jerry - > Since boxcars were used to carry bulk loads such as grain (with=20 > barriers in the doors), could they not have been used to carry=20 > granular steel making additives? Just a thought. > - godfrey hall > On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 02:09 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > I worked at a Zinc plant one summer. Surprisingly, the raw ore was=20 > transported in box cars. I realize iron ore is heavy, but... > The plant in question made gas cylinders . Chrome may have been a = raw=20 material, as alluded to in the first response. The Sanborne map (=20 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/harrisburg/images/HarrisburgSheet32.jpg=20 -- big) shows the trestle in question at lower right, though -- as is=20 often the case with Sanborne's -- the track has a break in it. I also=20 have a valuation map that shows the track connection, but the Sanborne=20= shows more detail on the plant itself. On the Sanborne the track is=20 labeled "Coal Trestle" and is just above a "RR SECTION HO.". Nearby is a cylinder forge, several mentions of furnaces, a boiler room=20= (probably needs coal), and a cylinder finishing building. Most of the=20 track shown on the diagram is actually the industry's narrow gauge line. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jthomasmet@juno.com" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:04:25 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:29:17 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, Can you identify the boxcar on the tresle as some cars were equiped with doors in the floor for carrying bulk comodities as well. A check of the car number in the ORER might reveal this to be the case. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:36:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 03:29 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Can you identify the boxcar on the tresle as some cars were equiped > with doors in the floor for carrying bulk comodities as well. A check > of the car number in the ORER might reveal this to be the case. Greg, good approach! I don't have the referenced books with me, and I am soon leaving for the holidays, so it may be a few days before I can actually check. Anyone have one of those books handy, to keep the topic moving... now? I was wondering if there was such a thing as a box car with floor openings. Sounds like there was. Otherwise, I would still be thrown for a loop in that I cannot find any photos or drawings of this location that show any kind of dock or platform alongside. Just a drop into various "bays" below. Interestingly, just a few blocks railroad west of this location was a public delivery area with a trestle for offloading bulk materials. It is still there and, though in bad shape, in pretty good shape for what I would have expected. Many of the chutes are still in place with the hardware intact, though the wood has deteriorated severely. Also have photos of this area online. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:59:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry,Fred, & List, I may be out on a limb with this, however, didn't Bill Volkmer relate an incident with wooden CN box cars filled with iron ore loaded on the floor? If you only have one dump facility for a ng shop railway, then is it not a possible answer? Then again, does the class of box car have a hopper in the floor? The only other way it works for me is something like a grain door, which discharges a dry commodity load into a bin, tram car, etc.. When you get the REAL answer, please let us know. This might be an item of interest for the steel plants that are in the drawing stages for the Lines West layout. Fred Freitas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Cc: "Fred Wertz" Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Siding at Harrisburg Steel Co., Harrisburg, Pa. > The Harrisburg Steel Co. had several sidings at Harrisburg, but I am > concerned here with the one the CT1000 1945 edition calls "Hbg. Steel > Corp. No. 2". It's a trestle that parallels the mains and the industrial > feeder track, just north of the State Street bridge. > > The remnants are still there today. You can go to > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ and search on "Harrisburg Steel" and > see some photos I took a few months ago. > > Vintage photos appear in the following: > > * This trestle appears in the background of a photo on page 100 of Pennsy > Diesel Years 6 -- there appears to be a four-bay hopper, a covered hopper, > and a box car spotted on the trestle. > > * The very end of the trestle can be viewed in the background of a shot on > page 46 of Pennsy Steam Years 1. > > * Another photo appears on page 62 of Pennsy Steam Years 2 and provides a > nice backdrop of the Harrisburg Steel sign with a Reading covered hopper > on the trestle. > > I can understand the use of this type of trestle for transloading of > hopper materials -- the hopper rides on top and dumps its load through to > either dump trucks or perhaps narrow gauge hoppers within the plant. (It's > confirmed that the plant had a narrow gauge line. I have maps showing most > of the layout.) > > But why would a box car be on the trestle? (And I have seen more than one > such photo.) > > I've never found any evidence of a building alongside this trestle. And > there is another nearby siding at grade -- "Hbg. Steel Corp. No. 1", just > to the east, enters the plant and splits into two tracks. > > Anyone? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] BLI E8/EP22 paint schemes online From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI E8/EP22 paint schemes online Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:20:12 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug and the List: As the comedian Artie Johnson used to say in the TV show Laugh-In: "Very = interesting" I have one basic but essential question: is it gold or is it buff? I = hope that BLI has learned from their mistake regarding the buff paint on = their DLGE E-7's Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Doug Kisala=20 To: PRR talk=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 9:07 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI E8/EP22 paint schemes online Hello list, I just checked Broadway Limited's web page, and they've posted artwork for their forthcoming EMD E8/EP22 diesels. Two PRR roadnumbers depicted are 5765 and 5766 (BLI stock numbers 457 and 458). Engines shown in dark green locomotive enamel with 5 stripes, and site mentions the engines will have trainphone antennas. Here's the link to BLI's home page; look for the updates section on the right to link to the E8 paint schemes. http://www.broadway-limited.com/ Doug __________________________________=20 Do you Yahoo!?=20 Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!=20 http://my.yahoo.com=20 =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 23:04:24 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] block limit sign (rule 293 & 293a) question Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all: A question about the block limit sign I am adding to my HO layout... Does anybody know how far in front of a block limit sign (rule 293) that the "approach block limit" sign (rule 293A) appears? From this link: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/mbs/mbs.ws4d on Keystone Crossings, it explains the rules at the bottom of the page and that trains must drop to medium speed if they don't have permission by the block limit signal (sign), but it does NOT give an idea how far in advance it should be replaced. Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Museum Haunted???? Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:29:37 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Good Evening Listers: I was channel surfing this Wednesday evening and I came across a show = called "Ghost Hunters" on the Sci Fi channel. A team of ghost hunters = were conducting a late night surveillance of the Railroaders Museum in = Altoona PA!!. There were some interesting interior shots of a position = light, the front of K-4s 1361, photos, and life size mannequins dressed = as railroad personnel.=20 Apparently, these ghost hunters were invited be the museum to conduct = this one-night investigation. According to their results, they detected = one "cold spot" and a chair was found placed upside down in the middle = of a hallway ( apparently when no opne was looking). Despite this, the = consensus of the ghost hunters was the the museum was not haunted. Does anyone know about this? Is it public knowledge in Altoona that the = museum is perhaps haunted? Have people experienced things there or is = the just a perception based on the fact that the museum is part of the = old Altoona works? Ted Andrews=20 Carmel, Indian P.S.: BOO!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:25:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Museum Haunted???? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Of course. This is typical of special interest museums, haunted by the financial ledger. Let's hope the ghosts of the ledger are exercised from the museum grounds. Have you joined as a 2005 member of the museum? Help drive those goblins out of Altoona. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:46:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Museum Haunted???? X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 106 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/24/2004 9:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ted_Andrews@msn.com writes: << Is it public knowledge in Altoona that the museum is perhaps haunted? Have people experienced things there or is the just a perception based on the fact that the museum is part of the old Altoona works? >> Or it this an extraordinarily clever public relations move to get nationwide freee publicity for a fine institution that could use some more viewership? Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:48:43 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Springfield Branch In a message dated 11/24/04 5:21:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:26 -0800 > From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" > Subject: Roundhouses and turntables > > Speaking of roundhouses (almost): > > Some Pennsy terminals in smaller cities at the end of stub lines (e.g. > Springfield, OH) didn't have roundhouses or engine servicing facilities and > may not have even had wyes. I was told by a local resident that in > Springfield, OH, there was a simple turntable to turn the (steam) > locomotives so they could return back up the branch to a larger Pennsy > facility (in this case Xenia, OH) where they would be serviced. Does anyone > know more about the situation in Springfield or have any photos of same? > > Thanks. > > Douglas Kirkpatrick > Medford, OR Doug, As you know, Springfield was only 16 miles up the Springfield Branch from Xenia. Since all operations originated out of Xenia until the Branch was cut by a bad culvert in 1966, there was no need to house power in Springfield. For those unfamiliar with the area, Springfield was the original objective of the Little Miami Railroad out of Cincinnati. Here it met the Mad River & Lake Erie, which went to Lake Erie navigation at Sandusky and formed the first practical Cincinnati-New York routing. Unfortunately, the Mad River & Lake Erie went into the NYC camp, and withered. Meantime, the Little Miami traffic went to Columbus and to new, all-rail connections to the east. In 1869, the Little Miami became part of the Pennsylvania System. By the Twentieth Century, the PRR line to Springfield was a quaint footnote to history, while the NYC main Cleveland to Cincinnati ran right down the middle of Springfield. PRR facilities were located in the blocks south of NYC's ornate masonry station. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Walthers B60B Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:22:48 -0600 To: PRR Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, The Walthers B60B has been officially listed on their web pages. Arrival is listed as May 24, 2005. http://www.walthers.com/exec/search? category=&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&keywords=B60&instock=Q&split=30&Su bmit=Search Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <9D39143C-4245-11D9-B807-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR Talk , PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Tuscan PULLMAN lettered 12-1s post divestiture Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:31:14 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Folks, Apparently some Pullman pool cars were painted Tuscan post divestiture such as Elm Field. This car is shown in Tuscan, lettered PULLMAN in 1964, in Blardone & Tilp (PRRT&HS guide to passenger car painting and lettering), but not noted to be in Tuscan in Tam Madden's Pullman database. I'm looking for plan 3410/3410A cars that were retained in Pullman ownership (not PRR), painted Tuscan and lettered PULLMAN. When I asked this question on another list, Garry Spear wrote: > In Tom's database there are other 3410 12-1s showing sold to PRR with > no > repaint date (LIMEDALE & GRAYBILL are two). > > Maybe they never got PENNSYLVANIA on the letterboards. Both of these cars are listed as PRR Std, and as Garry says no "repaint date". On many other cars I see a post PRR purchase paint code of MDD4973 (or a derivative) as the last PRR paint scheme. I suspect that this reflects a paint formulation change and that PRR Std cars got PENNSYLVANIA on the letterboards as soon as was possible, but never received the new body paint. Does anyone know if this is the case, or if this code specifies lettering as well? I think that the dates in Tom's database are only for paint scheme changes, so that makes me very suspicious that these cars would have been repainted (in the same scheme) a number of times, and relettered at some point. Thus, while many Tuscan cars may have briefly retained PULLMAN lettering post divestiture these aren't really good candidates for Pullman owned pool cars in Tuscan... Does anyone have any more information on the pool cars? (plan 3410 as well as others) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Museum Haunted???? Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:55:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <1eb.2eb2c985.2ed69cae@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTSluhzhHyesf+DQVq2Zju4JpvVLwDhBLqg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well, If the trains don't attract enough paying customers, perhaps the ghosts will! regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:26 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Museum Haunted???? Of course. This is typical of special interest museums, haunted by the financial ledger. Let's hope the ghosts of the ledger are exercised from the museum grounds. Have you joined as a 2005 member of the museum? Help drive those goblins out of Altoona. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] Back Online Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:39:59 -0500 To: PRR-talk , Conrail-talk , Reading-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Friends, The lists and web sites of DSOP.COM, PENNSYRR.COM, etc., are now back online. My sites are very fault tolerant, but not perfect. I left town for six days and one day into it there was a power outage leaving 5,700 customers without power -- many with turkeys in the oven -- on Thanksgiving Day. My equipment is all on UPS, but the outage lasted longer, so everything went off. When the power came back on, everything "should" have rebooted. In fact, everything did, except for one machine, which is the key to everything working... the Domain Name Server (DNS). Without it, nothing works! The machine has a setting where you tell it to auto reboot (or not) after a power failure. When I reconfigured everything following the floods in July and August, seems I missed one setting. Dang!!!! Sorry for the interruption in service. It's always something! ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:27:51 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Springfield Branch X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3,7-88,90-108 From: jeffrey d thomas X-ContentStamp: 22:11:3386517410 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In my hometown of Marietta, Ohio at the end of the Marietta Branch, There were no engine facilities. However, a Sanborn map from the 1920's, shows a 45' turntable. I don't know if this might have been some standard size, for 'end of branch" turning or not. You might want to buy a set of Sanborn maps for Springfield and see what they show. Maps are available on a CD from the following website. www.utahice.com I have ordered from this source twice, and there service is very good. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:48:43 EST RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 11/24/04 5:21:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:52:26 -0800 > > From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" > > Subject: Roundhouses and turntables > > > > Speaking of roundhouses (almost): > > > > Some Pennsy terminals in smaller cities at the end of stub lines > (e.g. > > Springfield, OH) didn't have roundhouses or engine servicing > facilities and > > may not have even had wyes. I was told by a local resident that > in > > Springfield, OH, there was a simple turntable to turn the (steam) > > locomotives so they could return back up the branch to a larger > Pennsy > > facility (in this case Xenia, OH) where they would be serviced. > Does anyone > > know more about the situation in Springfield or have any photos of > same? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Douglas Kirkpatrick > > Medford, OR > > Doug, > > As you know, Springfield was only 16 miles up the Springfield Branch > from > Xenia. Since all operations originated out of Xenia until the > Branch was cut by > a bad culvert in 1966, there was no need to house power in > Springfield. > > For those unfamiliar with the area, Springfield was the original > objective of > the Little Miami Railroad out of Cincinnati. Here it met the Mad > River & > Lake Erie, which went to Lake Erie navigation at Sandusky and formed > the first > practical Cincinnati-New York routing. > > Unfortunately, the Mad River & Lake Erie went into the NYC camp, and > > withered. Meantime, the Little Miami traffic went to Columbus and > to new, all-rail > connections to the east. In 1869, the Little Miami became part of > the > Pennsylvania System. By the Twentieth Century, the PRR line to > Springfield was a > quaint footnote to history, while the NYC main Cleveland to > Cincinnati ran right > down the middle of Springfield. PRR facilities were located in the > blocks south > of NYC's ornate masonry station. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 21:19:38 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Troop trains on New York and Long Branch From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:59:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List... Anyone have any info on Norfolk & Western steam locomotives working out of Enola Yard during WW2 (1944-45)? Did PRR lease N&W steam during this era? I have a PRR Enginemen's Time Book from that era and there are entries in this book listing several classes of N&W steam locomotives. Any information is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert Troop" Subject: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:32:00 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com During May 1943 the Pennsy purchased six 1919 vintage Norfolk & Western = class Y3, 2-8-8-2 Mallets and became PRR class HH1. Staufer's book = Pennsy Power indicates these spent the war years in transfer and hump = duty at Enola. Later they were transferred to Columbus. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Troop trains on New York and Long Branch Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:57:16 -0600 To: Doug Kisala X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 28, 2004, at 11:19 PM, Doug Kisala wrote: > Do any of you have evidence (photographic or > otherwise) of troop trains running on the NY&LB during > the 40s and 50s? > > I realize that a troop train and a commuter consist > can look a lot alike (grin!) if regular coaches were > used for the troop train. > > Any shots of the Pullman troop cars on the NY&LB? > > I have a few of the new Walthers troop train cars in > HO, which would look great behind my model of H10s > 7688, which got steam and signal lines for troop train > service in WWII. Doug, Just a reminder that the Walthers Troop Sleeper cars, without modification, are only appropriate from mid 1945 until about mid 1947. The AC&F Troop Kitchen cars are good for 1943 and on through the Korean war. Kamp Kilmer in New Brunswick was a HUGE processing center both for deployment overseas and for returning soldiers and there are photos of the troop train yard there. However, it is unclear to me if significant traffic would have been generated on the NY&LB, unless units were coming or going to the Jersey shore. Likely, these would have moved to the shore for exercises by motor transport, but troop trains would also have been possible. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:46:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] What's not in Arranged Freight? Greetings! I've been working out a schedule for my in-design layout of the Wilkes-Barre Branch, using the relevant Arranged Freight (from Jerry's "PRR in 1954" CD) as a basis. However, there are clearly trains that aren't listed therein. For instance, there's a train that runs over the branch that's only mentioned as a connection with another train. Similarly, the hotshot perishable run straight into the CNJ interchange at Buttonwood that's mentioned in "Set Up Running" is not listed; other CSB trains are, but not that one. Unfortunately, Mr. Orr doesn't mention the scheduled arrival time... Of course, the local turns are not mentioned, but those are pretty clearly out of scope for Arranged Freight, and for all I now, weren't scheduled at all (but somehow I doubt that). What else is out there? Are there other sources available that would tell us the rest of the story? Thanks! Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA Modelling the PRR Wilkes-Barre branch in 1954 in N Scale. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] What's not in Arranged Freight? Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:46:01 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:59:36 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] What's not in Arranged Freight? At 10:46 AM 11/30/2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: >Greetings! > >I've been working out a schedule for my in-design layout of >the Wilkes-Barre Branch, using the relevant Arranged Freight >(from Jerry's "PRR in 1954" CD) as a basis. However, there >are clearly trains that aren't listed therein. For >instance, there's a train that runs over the branch that's >only mentioned as a connection with another train. >Similarly, the hotshot perishable run straight into the CNJ >interchange at Buttonwood that's mentioned in "Set Up >Running" is not listed; other CSB trains are, but not that >one. Unfortunately, Mr. Orr doesn't mention the scheduled >arrival time... > >Of course, the local turns are not mentioned, but those are >pretty clearly out of scope for Arranged Freight, and for >all I now, weren't scheduled at all (but somehow I doubt >that). > >What else is out there? Are there other sources available >that would tell us the rest of the story? > >Thanks! > >Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA > >Modelling the PRR Wilkes-Barre branch in 1954 in N Scale. > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >[] > > > >Get unlimited calls to > >U.S./Canada > > >---------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service. Dennis, Check my web site out. I have included interchange traffic between the Pennsy and other railroads. http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com/Connecting%20Roads%20Freight%20Schedules.htm Randy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:59:36 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] What's not in Arranged Freight? At 10:46 AM 11/30/2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: >Greetings! > >I've been working out a schedule for my in-design layout of >the Wilkes-Barre Branch, using the relevant Arranged Freight >(from Jerry's "PRR in 1954" CD) as a basis. However, there >are clearly trains that aren't listed therein. For >instance, there's a train that runs over the branch that's >only mentioned as a connection with another train. >Similarly, the hotshot perishable run straight into the CNJ >interchange at Buttonwood that's mentioned in "Set Up >Running" is not listed; other CSB trains are, but not that >one. Unfortunately, Mr. Orr doesn't mention the scheduled >arrival time... > >Of course, the local turns are not mentioned, but those are >pretty clearly out of scope for Arranged Freight, and for >all I now, weren't scheduled at all (but somehow I doubt >that). > >What else is out there? Are there other sources available >that would tell us the rest of the story? > >Thanks! > >Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA > >Modelling the PRR Wilkes-Barre branch in 1954 in N Scale. > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >[] > > > >Get unlimited calls to > >U.S./Canada > > >---------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ > * > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > * > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of Service. Dennis, Check my web site out. I have included interchange traffic between the Pennsy and other railroads. http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com/Connecting%20Roads%20Freight%20Schedules.htm Randy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:03:06 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7485C564F@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR Thread-Index: AcTWpo01Cke5sDzpTi+E4wguAmn+HwAaHdkg From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Robert Troop" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One of the old timers at Northumberland once told me that they tried the N&Ws on the Elmira Branch and the cylinders hit (i.e. conflicted with) the bridge girders. Anybody know of any truth in this? Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Robert Troop Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:32 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR During May 1943 the Pennsy purchased six 1919 vintage Norfolk & Western class Y3, 2-8-8-2 Mallets and became PRR class HH1. Staufer's book Pennsy Power indicates these spent the war years in transfer and hump duty at Enola. Later they were transferred to Columbus. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:28:35 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7485C5658@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR Thread-Index: AcTXGorJeCzIKhJzR/6U1a6r6yhGYgAAGntQ From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Bill Daniels" Cc: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com "Old timer" pre-dated the book by at least 40 years. If set up and running talked about it, it must have been true. I'd say. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 3:28 PM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: RE: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR I seem to recall this story from the book "Set up running". It could be true, but then the oldtimer may have gotten it from the book. And again it may well have happened... Bill Daniels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 http://mail.yahoo.com=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:40:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Enginemen's Time Book X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/30/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: N&W Steam on PRR > From: > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:59:53 -0500 > > Hello List... > > Anyone have any info on Norfolk &Western steam locomotives > working out of Enola Yard during WW2 (1944-45)? Did PRR lease N&W steam > during this era? > I have a PRR Enginemen's Time Book from that era and there > are entries in this book listing several classes of N&W steam > locomotives. Any information is appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson Dave, As a primary historical source, an Enginemen's Time Book beats just about any other form of evidence. Are there large numbers of different engines in each of the classes shown, or a few entered over and over? BTW, emailing or websiting a list by class, by engine from your book is a good way to share the data with others. If you really want to gild the lily, record the earliest and latest date cited for each engine number. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:40:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Lexington & Ohio legal brief, plus Lines West "standard X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/30/04 6:13:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, david.wilkins@bardstown.com writes: > Rick and others, > > The issue of the Lexington and Ohio running cars down Main Street in > Louisville went to the Kentucky Court of Appeals, the then-highest court in > the Commonwealth. The case, Lexington and Ohio Rail Road Company v. > Applegate and Others 38 KY 289 (1839) stemmed from a pervious injunction by > the Louisville Court of Chancery to quit operating horse-drawn trains down > Main Street. Back in the 19th century, courts were split into courts of > law, which dealt with Common Law issues, and Courts of Equity, which dealt > with property issues. > > Starting in 1833, the L&O began construction from a point near the corner of > > Jefferson and 6th Streets, down Sixth street to Main. The line then > extended down Main street until it reached around the present intersection > of 13th street. The original claim was filed by Elisha Applegate, a > property owner on Main Street, and forty other property owners who all owned > > property on 6th or Main streets. > > The main basis of the claim was that the presence of a railroad in the > middle of the street damaged property values to the owners of the taverns, > saloons, etc along the affected route. The second, and slightly more > interesting claim by Applegate was that the city of Louisville abused its > original incorporation rights by allowing a private company to utilize the > public streets through the construction of a railroad. These two claims > were upheld by the Chancery Court in Louisville. I guess "Not in my back > yard" is a misnomer. The property owners in this case should be referred to > > as NIMPS, Not in My Public Street. While street running was common for > railroads in many parts of the country, especially in the Midwest, > municipalities have always had somewhat of a fear of full-scale railroad > operations running down city streets. That is why, for example, some cities > > had odd streetcar gauges. Such cities include Cincinnati, and here where > I'm living now, St. Louis, which had a 4'10" gauge, quite uncommon for when > it was built. > > Chief Justice George Robertson of the Kentucky Court of Appeals wrote the > opinion in the Applegate case. A majority of the court overturned the > Chancery Court ruling, stating that the nuisance claims were not > well-founded, and the city did not abuse its incorporation powers. Legal > historians have grabbed onto the case, mainly through the creative language > of Robertson in the opinion. I know it is mentioned in at least two or > three of the major legal history textbooks that law schools use today. Here > > is what Robertson wrote: > > "The onward spirit of the age must, to a reasonable extent, have its way. > The law is made for the times, and will be made or modified by them. The > expanded and still expanding genius of common law should adapt here, as > elsewhere, to the improved and improving condition of our country and our > countrymen. And therefore, rail roads and locomotive steam cars-the > offspring, as they will also be the parents, of progressive > improvement-should not, in themselves, be considered as nuisances, although, > > in ages that are gone, they might have been so held, because they would have > > been comparatively useless, and therefore more mischievous." > > Of course, the L&O continued to operate the street operation for some time > before it was abandoned. I can't quite remember, but the L&O never quite > made it to Louisville. The company was rife with financial problems, and in > > the 1840s underwent a period of state ownership. Overall, Kentucky's first > railroad venture turned into an abject failure. I don't think the Old Road > was completed until the early 1850s. As for railroads, they served as a > powerful force in breaking down localism. How could you keep them on the > farm in New Hope, if they could take the train to Louisville? > > Another interesting insight is to look at the old Charter that the General > Assembly enacted for the L&O in 1829. Back in the days before general > incorporation laws, companies of such a grand scale had to seek a special > charter. The L&O's charter is fairly restrictive in how the railroad could > raise money, etc. It even had a provision for the purchase of stock by the > U.S. government, something that never happened in the age of Jackson. By > contrast, the charter for the L&N gave the company a lot more freedom in > matters of railroad construction. Both charters gave their respective > companies the power of imminent domain not just for land, but for timber and > > other resources. > > Maybe it is because I'm in law school now, or that I've always had an > interest in railroad history, but railroad legal history is especially > fascinating. One book I recommend is "Railroads and American Law" by James > Ely. It was published in 1999 or 2000, and a very easy read. It is a good > way to see how the law reacts, and sometimes reacts against emerging > technology. I'd like to see a similar work on the electric street railway > industry, but that's because I've been bitten by the traction bug as of > late. Of course, if anyone is interested more in this subject, let me know. > > I wrote an entire Master's thesis at the University of Louisville on the > subject of 19th Century Kentucky railroads and the public policy issues > surrounding them. It should be in the UofL library sometime after the first > > of the year, after the University gets it bound. > > David > David, I'm glad someone was in a position to provide the details for this, as it's something that gets mentioned again and again in railfan conversations. Thanks for your thorough backgrounding of the legal and public battles. I offer one caveat, which should take nothing away from your "brief": Take care in reacting to those "funny gauges". Here in Louisville, it's common for someone to point out that most of the streetcars and interurbans were 5' gauge "to keep railroad cars out of the streets". The truth is, the horsecar tracks AND the L&N and possibly other railroad lines to the south were 5'0 until after the mid-80's, when the "great southern gauge change" took place, leaving Louisville with 5-foot trolley tracks. Similarly, if the streetcars of Cincinnati and St. Louis were 4'10", this is not an "odd gauge" and did nothing in itself to keep railroad cars off. The railroads west of Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania Lines West affiliates in particular) had gauges of 4'10, 4'9, and 4'8.5 at various times (and periodicals of the day called ALL of them "standard gauge"). In fact, there's documentary evidence that the PRR still gauged its tracks at 4'9 in 1914, an amazingly late date. There's no question that the public considered trains in the streets to be a nuisance, and desired to keep the large, heavy cars of a "steam railroad" off the streets. My impression is that sharp curvature and legal strictures did more to prohibit them in cities than did rigging gauges. (Of course, I've been wrong before, and will be again). I hope I have reported all of this correctly. Anyway, there are three good points I'd hope anyone would take away: 1. Railroads used to come in an amazing variety of gauges -- and this wasn't restricted to 3' or 2' or 6' extremes. 2. Even the "standard gauge" railroads were not all 56.5 inches wide (I'm not even sure the B&O wasn't 4'9" west of the Ohio River for awhile). 3. There's pretty good evidence that when the southern railroads narrowed their gauges in the 1880's, they changed gauge from 5' to 4'9. The narrowing to 4'8.5 came a lot later. Thus, it's a mistake to read "changing to standard gauge" to mean "changing to 56.5 inches". Rick Tipton Remembering the Old Reliable, and its connections with the Pennsylvania Railroad at Cincinnati and Louisville ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:40:31 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Lexington & Ohio legal brief, plus Lines West "standard gauges" In a message dated 11/30/04 6:13:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, david.wilkins@bardstown.com writes: > Rick and others, > > The issue of the Lexington and Ohio running cars down Main Street in > Louisville went to the Kentucky Court of Appeals, the then-highest court in > the Commonwealth. The case, Lexington and Ohio Rail Road Company v. > Applegate and Others 38 KY 289 (1839) stemmed from a pervious injunction by > the Louisville Court of Chancery to quit operating horse-drawn trains down > Main Street. Back in the 19th century, courts were split into courts of > law, which dealt with Common Law issues, and Courts of Equity, which dealt > with property issues. > > Starting in 1833, the L&O began construction from a point near the corner of > > Jefferson and 6th Streets, down Sixth street to Main. The line then > extended down Main street until it reached around the present intersection > of 13th street. The original claim was filed by Elisha Applegate, a > property owner on Main Street, and forty other property owners who all owned > > property on 6th or Main streets. > > The main basis of the claim was that the presence of a railroad in the > middle of the street damaged property values to the owners of the taverns, > saloons, etc along the affected route. The second, and slightly more > interesting claim by Applegate was that the city of Louisville abused its > original incorporation rights by allowing a private company to utilize the > public streets through the construction of a railroad. These two claims > were upheld by the Chancery Court in Louisville. I guess "Not in my back > yard" is a misnomer. The property owners in this case should be referred to > > as NIMPS, Not in My Public Street. While street running was common for > railroads in many parts of the country, especially in the Midwest, > municipalities have always had somewhat of a fear of full-scale railroad > operations running down city streets. That is why, for example, some cities > > had odd streetcar gauges. Such cities include Cincinnati, and here where > I'm living now, St. Louis, which had a 4'10" gauge, quite uncommon for when > it was built. > > Chief Justice George Robertson of the Kentucky Court of Appeals wrote the > opinion in the Applegate case. A majority of the court overturned the > Chancery Court ruling, stating that the nuisance claims were not > well-founded, and the city did not abuse its incorporation powers. Legal > historians have grabbed onto the case, mainly through the creative language > of Robertson in the opinion. I know it is mentioned in at least two or > three of the major legal history textbooks that law schools use today. Here > > is what Robertson wrote: > > "The onward spirit of the age must, to a reasonable extent, have its way. > The law is made for the times, and will be made or modified by them. The > expanded and still expanding genius of common law should adapt here, as > elsewhere, to the improved and improving condition of our country and our > countrymen. And therefore, rail roads and locomotive steam cars-the > offspring, as they will also be the parents, of progressive > improvement-should not, in themselves, be considered as nuisances, although, > > in ages that are gone, they might have been so held, because they would have > > been comparatively useless, and therefore more mischievous." > > Of course, the L&O continued to operate the street operation for some time > before it was abandoned. I can't quite remember, but the L&O never quite > made it to Louisville. The company was rife with financial problems, and in > > the 1840s underwent a period of state ownership. Overall, Kentucky's first > railroad venture turned into an abject failure. I don't think the Old Road > was completed until the early 1850s. As for railroads, they served as a > powerful force in breaking down localism. How could you keep them on the > farm in New Hope, if they could take the train to Louisville? > > Another interesting insight is to look at the old Charter that the General > Assembly enacted for the L&O in 1829. Back in the days before general > incorporation laws, companies of such a grand scale had to seek a special > charter. The L&O's charter is fairly restrictive in how the railroad could > raise money, etc. It even had a provision for the purchase of stock by the > U.S. government, something that never happened in the age of Jackson. By > contrast, the charter for the L&N gave the company a lot more freedom in > matters of railroad construction. Both charters gave their respective > companies the power of imminent domain not just for land, but for timber and > > other resources. > > Maybe it is because I'm in law school now, or that I've always had an > interest in railroad history, but railroad legal history is especially > fascinating. One book I recommend is "Railroads and American Law" by James > Ely. It was published in 1999 or 2000, and a very easy read. It is a good > way to see how the law reacts, and sometimes reacts against emerging > technology. I'd like to see a similar work on the electric street railway > industry, but that's because I've been bitten by the traction bug as of > late. Of course, if anyone is interested more in this subject, let me know. > > I wrote an entire Master's thesis at the University of Louisville on the > subject of 19th Century Kentucky railroads and the public policy issues > surrounding them. It should be in the UofL library sometime after the first > > of the year, after the University gets it bound. > > David > David, I'm glad someone was in a position to provide the details for this, as it's something that gets mentioned again and again in railfan conversations. Thanks for your thorough backgrounding of the legal and public battles. I offer one caveat, which should take nothing away from your "brief": Take care in reacting to those "funny gauges". Here in Louisville, it's common for someone to point out that most of the streetcars and interurbans were 5' gauge "to keep railroad cars out of the streets". The truth is, the horsecar tracks AND the L&N and possibly other railroad lines to the south were 5'0 until after the mid-80's, when the "great southern gauge change" took place, leaving Louisville with 5-foot trolley tracks. Similarly, if the streetcars of Cincinnati and St. Louis were 4'10", this is not an "odd gauge" and did nothing in itself to keep railroad cars off. The railroads west of Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania Lines West affiliates in particular) had gauges of 4'10, 4'9, and 4'8.5 at various times (and periodicals of the day called ALL of them "standard gauge"). In fact, there's documentary evidence that the PRR still gauged its tracks at 4'9 in 1914, an amazingly late date. There's no question that the public considered trains in the streets to be a nuisance, and desired to keep the large, heavy cars of a "steam railroad" off the streets. My impression is that sharp curvature and legal strictures did more to prohibit them in cities than did rigging gauges. (Of course, I've been wrong before, and will be again). I hope I have reported all of this correctly. Anyway, there are three good points I'd hope anyone would take away: 1. Railroads used to come in an amazing variety of gauges -- and this wasn't restricted to 3' or 2' or 6' extremes. 2. Even the "standard gauge" railroads were not all 56.5 inches wide (I'm not even sure the B&O wasn't 4'9" west of the Ohio River for awhile). 3. There's pretty good evidence that when the southern railroads narrowed their gauges in the 1880's, they changed gauge from 5' to 4'9. The narrowing to 4'8.5 came a lot later. Thus, it's a mistake to read "changing to standard gauge" to mean "changing to 56.5 inches". Rick Tipton Remembering the Old Reliable, and its connections with the Pennsylvania Railroad at Cincinnati and Louisville [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:40:32 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Enginemen's Time Book In a message dated 11/30/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: N&W Steam on PRR > From: > Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:59:53 -0500 > > Hello List... > > Anyone have any info on Norfolk &Western steam locomotives > working out of Enola Yard during WW2 (1944-45)? Did PRR lease N&W steam > during this era? > I have a PRR Enginemen's Time Book from that era and there > are entries in this book listing several classes of N&W steam > locomotives. Any information is appreciated. > Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson Dave, As a primary historical source, an Enginemen's Time Book beats just about any other form of evidence. Are there large numbers of different engines in each of the classes shown, or a few entered over and over? BTW, emailing or websiting a list by class, by engine from your book is a good way to share the data with others. If you really want to gild the lily, record the earliest and latest date cited for each engine number. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Robert Troop" , From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:50:49 -0600 To: "Bill Volkmer" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 30, 2004, at 1:03 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > One of the old timers at Northumberland once told me that they tried > the > N&Ws on the Elmira Branch and the cylinders hit (i.e. conflicted with) > the bridge girders. > > Anybody know of any truth in this? > > Bill V. Bill, This is also reported by O.P. Orr in the book Set Up Running. I also have a personal account of a large articulated locomotive being serviced in Columbia PA in 1944, which seems to confirm that these locos were used, at least occasionally as helpers or power east of Enola on the A&S. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:27:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N&W Steam on PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey Guys..... Here are some of the N&W steam locomotives entered in this PRR Time Book for Jan 1945. Jan 10,1945 N&W 1139 class M2 4-8-0 Jan 12,1945 Ex-Help N&W 1139 Jan 14,1945 N&W 1398 class Z1b 2-6-6-2, with PRR 1498 L1 (?) Jan 16,1945 N&W 110 class K1 4-8-2 Jan 19,1945 N&W 103 class K1 4-8-2 Jan 28,1945 N&W 1331 class Z1 2-6-6-2 These are just some of the N&W locomotives out of this book. When I first bought these Time Books some years ago, I was told that the book with the N&W locomotives belonged to an engineer on the Williamsport Division. In the time book, it looks like this engineer had quite a few N&W locos for Jan-Feb 1945 including Y class mallets. By reading some of the codes, he operated these locomotives out of Enola and Harrisburg. I'll share more info soon. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:27:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N&W Steam on PRR Hey Guys..... Here are some of the N&W steam locomotives entered in this PRR Time Book for Jan 1945. Jan 10,1945 N&W 1139 class M2 4-8-0 Jan 12,1945 Ex-Help N&W 1139 Jan 14,1945 N&W 1398 class Z1b 2-6-6-2, with PRR 1498 L1 (?) Jan 16,1945 N&W 110 class K1 4-8-2 Jan 19,1945 N&W 103 class K1 4-8-2 Jan 28,1945 N&W 1331 class Z1 2-6-6-2 These are just some of the N&W locomotives out of this book. When I first bought these Time Books some years ago, I was told that the book with the N&W locomotives belonged to an engineer on the Williamsport Division. In the time book, it looks like this engineer had quite a few N&W locos for Jan-Feb 1945 including Y class mallets. By reading some of the codes, he operated these locomotives out of Enola and Harrisburg. I'll share more info soon. Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] UP power on NS Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:26:51 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A friend claims to have seen Union Pacific Power pulling a train on the = NS mainline near Greensburg, PA. DId NS buy or lease UP locomotives? Carl Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] UP power on NS Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:44:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Carl, These days you're liable to see anybody's power anywhere and it's been that way for a decade or more. Locomotives operate in run-through trains, say from North Platte, NE to Conway. But say UP owes NS horsepower hours on a Birmingham-Los Angeles run through, so NS uses the UP's to run East of Conway. Rather than pay lease charges, the Class I's today just use each other's locomotives so that at the end of each month the horsepower hours balance out. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Izzo" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: [PRR] UP power on NS > A friend claims to have seen Union Pacific Power pulling a train on the NS > mainline near Greensburg, PA. DId NS buy or lease UP locomotives? > > Carl Izzo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:25:24 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] UP power on NS