Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:45:30 -0500 From: Rod Schaffter Subject: [PRR] Re: quartering , My final post on the subject (Bill's too) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill Box speaketh thus... > The issue is NOT that the components are made of infinitely strong and stiff > materials. The first, most elementary mechanical engineering courses make > this this very assumption. It is these elementary techniques that I have > used to analyze this problem. I looked at the system of a pair of drivers and crank as a simple 4 bar linkage. Doing a "Thought Experiment", it seemed to me that there would be no problem with the 90-180 degree positions, just based on everyday experience. To model it, I used a Java based simulator availible online at: http://www.cden-rcci.mcmaster.ca/VisLinkage/ I set it up with lenghts of 50 for the cranks and 105 for the axle diastance and the spanning arm. Unfortunately is is set up as a crank-rocker simulator, but that revealed something that I had not considered-that that at the 3:00 and 9:0O positions, the driven crank can go either direction if it is starting from rest. Considering a axle gear driven locomotive, having the opposite crank at any other angle than zero or 180 degrees would keep all of the wheels going the same direction, preventing a lockup at startup. We might look at whether Hieslers had their drivers quartered, but since they have two powered trucks, it might not be relevant, because it would be very unlikely that both trucks would be at zero or 180 degrees at the same time. Besides, the PRR didn't have any, so that would probably be outside the scope of this group. ;) Cheers, Rod Schaffter -- "1918's now just another year we won the World Series." -- Red Sox GM Theo Epstein. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:34:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9C545FF0-2D0E-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone know whatever came of Oregon Rail Supply? Their product has dried up in the wholesale channel and their plastic PRR Lines West signal bridge was never shipped... as far as I know. I've also confirmed that their web site ( http://www.oregonrail.com/ ) is down. The domain registration is still good. The domain's DNS server still responds, but no record for a web server. Anyone hear anything? Out of business? Sold? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:44:29 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:45:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <9C545FF0-2D0E-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: <22C00242-2D10-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 03:34 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Anyone know whatever came of Oregon Rail Supply? > > Their product has dried up in the wholesale channel and their plastic > PRR Lines West signal bridge was never shipped... as far as I know. > I've also confirmed that their web site ( http://www.oregonrail.com/ ) > is down. The domain registration is still good. The domain's DNS > server still responds, but no record for a web server. > > Anyone hear anything? Out of business? Sold? Sometimes you just gotta ask the masses to get things to happen... the web site is up and the DNS now has an appropriate host record. Timing is impeccable! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:50:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, November 2, 2004, at 03:44 PM, Randy Williamson wrote: > At 02:34 PM 11/2/2004, Jerry Britton wrote: > > Anyone know whatever came of Oregon Rail Supply? > > > I talked to the owner recently about the Lines West Signal bridges and > he told me that they will be shipped this month. The web site (back up) says January 2005, due to unanticipated delays. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Oregon Rail Supply Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:53:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <9C545FF0-2D0E-11D9-B796-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: Jerry sez - "I've also confirmed that their [Oregon Rail Supply] web site ( http://www.oregonrail.com/ ) is down." The website works for me! And I called Dick Yeager just a minute ago - they are alive and well. The PRR signal bridge will be out late December, early January. Dick said they needed to make a few corrections on it so it's behind the curve and back in the shop. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Re: quartering , My final post on the subject (Bill's too) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:15:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rod: Great! You're almost there! But the linkage AB must equal CD. The four programmable values should be: AD= 200 AB= 50 BC= 200 CD= 50 http://www.cden-rcci.mcmaster.ca/VisLinkage/ PLEASE, EVERYONE ON THE LIST, TRY ROD'S ANALYSIS WITH THE ABOVE VALUES. Just put CD= 50 first, then BC= 200 and hit return. Then hit start in the lower right corner. Enjoy! This does not address the forces, but it does prove quartering is required. So Speaketh Bill, one more time PS Since this is related to my experiment, I do not think it violates the spirit (so to speaketh) of my self-imposed gag rule BB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Joebrann@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 17:44:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Track names X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad which is based around Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off of a common lead and then head to a turntable which is at the end of a peninsula. As I begin to finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was wondering what the PRR would have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival and departure as I don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these two parallel tracks. Any help would be appreciated. Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Track names Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:32:58 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, I'd think it reasonable and prudent to call these your=20 "Engine Servicing" tracks.=20 -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. Joebrann@aol.com wrote: On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad=20 which is based around=20 Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off=20 of a common lead and=20 then head to a turntable which is at the end of a=20 peninsula. As I begin to=20 finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was=20 wondering what the PRR would=20 have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival=20 and departure as I=20 don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these=20 two parallel tracks. =20 Any help would be appreciated. Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Olszewski" Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:50:19 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel .jpg Thanks, Ed Olszewski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:14:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Off Topic-Train Show? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Western Pa Model Train Show goers, What is the date of the Erie Pa. train show at Waldemer Park? Not sure if it is coming up this sunday or when. Is there a Mr. Murphy here from the Erie vicinity that can confirm the date and times? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:18:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <004001c4c136$b61571f0$6400a8c0@ed> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 9010B07B-85254243-B2F19892-4AEBDC3E Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Not really good with freight car and all their sub classes - but it looks to be an X31 variant. The number appears to be 6xxxx consistent with the X31 class What looks to be a 6-foot wide door? My guess is it is an X31a in the 67400 to 68999 the only number series to have a 6 foot door Another guess - it is not an X43 - the bracing continues down past the floor. Note the difference in the next car back - no side sill more consistent with the X43 design. Just my guess - The SW1 is much more interesting though - IMHO! Cos Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Building the next generation of Leaders, support your local troop! Troop 53 - Maytown PA Harvest District of the Pennsylvania Dutch Council Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ed Olszewski Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:50 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel .jpg Thanks, Ed Olszewski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940df98af619232f20634ab24938ca64cbe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.253 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual clue. You might want to check out http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 for info and photos. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Olszewski" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in > the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will > be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number > series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. > > http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel > .jpg > > Thanks, > Ed Olszewski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:43:04 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/567/Mon Nov 1 10:13:35 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR Box in question is either an X29F or X29G. The brackets below the side sill and the use of dreadnaught ends narrow it down to an X29 rebuild and not an X26C rebuild. The 8-rung side ladder matches class X29F (606250-606649) or X29G (605350-606249). Unfortunately the car number is not readable for further Identification. Refer to page 53 of morning Sun "PRR Color guide vol 3" for pictures of these classes. Note I noticed that the number series given in the caption have been transposed. FYI the photo was taken in the Scranton Pa area, possibly on the laurel Line EL SW1 357 was originally Lackawanna 435. Also since a caboose is in use the picture was taken no earlier than October 1961 based on information in the Morning Sun Book, "Trackside around Scranton." Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Olszewski" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in > the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will > be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number > series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. > > http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel > .jpg > > Thanks, > Ed Olszewski > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 23:45:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/567/Mon Nov 1 10:13:35 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I forgot to mention see Ben Hom's articles in The Keystone Modeler for more X29 information. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Olszewski" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > I would like to build a model of the PRR boxcar behind the locomotive in > the photo at the listed URL. I am hoping that some one on the list will > be able to identify it for me. If you could also provide the number > series that the car is possibly from it would be a help. > > http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-02-00/DLXW357BillWeibel > .jpg > > Thanks, > Ed Olszewski > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: RE: [PRR] Off Topic-Train Show? Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:49:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <25499-41883106-4862@storefull-3118.bay.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.41.111.211] at Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:49:52 -0600 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Rainbow Gardens Erie show is this Sunday from 10:00 to 4:00. Don Murphy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:15 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Off Topic-Train Show? Western Pa Model Train Show goers, What is the date of the Erie Pa. train show at Waldemer Park? Not sure if it is coming up this sunday or when. Is there a Mr. Murphy here from the Erie vicinity that can confirm the date and times? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia interchange with the Reading Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:56:43 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The area I am modeling includes North philadelphia station and the interchange with the Reading just west of the statin and Chestnut Hill branch. I have a couple of questions. Was the interchange limited to the connecting tracks or did the Reading deliver cars to Margie yard 2/10 of a mile south? Was there any predominant Reqding freight power used or did it run the Gamut of engines on the Reading? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track names Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:07:20 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, Are we talking about Williamsport here? If so, Newberry Yard? There was also Walnut St. Yard downtown. for local switching. As far as I know, there were no names for the tracks, although I'm certainly no authority here. You could hardly go wrong using standard Pennsy practice, especially standard practice for the Buffalo Line. What did they use for Northumberland, Buffalo, or Erie? Again, you can hardly go wrong! Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: [PRR] Track names > > On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad which is based around > Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off of a common lead and > then head to a turntable which is at the end of a peninsula. As I begin to > finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was wondering what the PRR would > have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival and departure as I > don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these two parallel tracks. > Any help would be appreciated. > > Joe Brann > Owner / Engineer > Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) > Orlando, FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:01:40 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <1e.3755e70a.2eb83235@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2004 21:00:01.0845 (UTC) FILETIME=[15F94E50:01C4C1E8] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, There has been some discussion of sharing photos of models... Here are a few of mine Before http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/BrassLoco.jpg After http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/M1Mode6976after.jpg K4 with Disk Drivers http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/DiskDrivers1.jpg After a bit more progress. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v376/SVASTANO/DiskDriverK4Progress.jpg I have this model complete but haven't had time to get a finished photo. SamV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:56:21 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Track names X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another name for arrival and departure would be inbound and outbound. Don't let the names dictate their absolute use though. The railroad certainly didn't. It's not uncommon to have a train arrive on an outbound track as it enters a yard. The railroad will use whatever is available at the time. I remember visiting Bay tower in Baltimore and the block operator telling a train crew "they had permission through the half-switch." "Half-switch? What the heck is that?" I said. The operator responded, "That's a manually thrown switch half-way down the yard off of No. 1 Track." Enjoy. Ken Meyer William Bigler wrote: >Joe, > >Are we talking about Williamsport here? If so, Newberry Yard? There was >also Walnut St. Yard downtown. for local switching. As far as I know, there >were no names for the tracks, although I'm certainly no authority here. You >could hardly go wrong using standard Pennsy practice, especially standard >practice for the Buffalo Line. What did they use for Northumberland, >Buffalo, or Erie? Again, you can hardly go wrong! > >Bill Bigler > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 5:44 PM >Subject: [PRR] Track names > > > > >>On my Susquehanna Valley Line HO-scale model railroad which is based >> >> >around > > >>Williamsport, PA my Arrival and Departure tracks come off of a common lead >> >> >and > > >>then head to a turntable which is at the end of a peninsula. As I begin to >>finalize the naming of tracks and spots, etc., I was wondering what the >> >> >PRR would > > >>have called these two tracks. I'm hesitant to us arrival and departure as >> >> >I > > >>don't want to necessarily fix the functionality of these two parallel >> >> >tracks. > > >>Any help would be appreciated. >> >>Joe Brann >>Owner / Engineer >>Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) >>Orlando, FL >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:38:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MTH K4s brochure Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:43:21 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:16:59 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:21:35 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: [PRR] Ken McCorry in the Dec. MR... Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Ken McCorry in the Dec. MR... Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:33:42 -0500 To: Bill Daniels X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 3, 2004, at 9:21 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > A friend of mine from my club (the Napa club in Napa > California)(lets NOT talk about the distance to visit > there...) informed me that the cover pic of the Dec MR > > (it has a article on Ken's layout) has some of the > pipe flats they did recently. Yes...I know it's post > PRR, but Ken is one of our own... Agreed... and it mentions his current plan to backdate to the 1950s. But Ken, what's with that non-REA box car on the passenger train? What about steam lines? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:20:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH K4s brochure X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The latest O gauge MTH Catalogue has a picture of an engine from every scale they make. The modernized K4 in the picture does not appear to have the mechanical lubricator. I do wonder if they are using the Bachmann K4 as a fill in, but I don't think so. When I saw this, it made me very happy that I chose the BLI K4 over the MTH K4. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kisala Sent: Nov 3, 2004 8:38 PM To: PRR talk Subject: [PRR] MTH K4s brochure Hello list, The MTH HO scale K4s brochure I ordered (free for the emailing) arrived in my neck of the woods. I can't, at this point tell whether they're using an O scale model or if it is an HO pilot model; I'll do more checking after work. Biggest concern for me at this point is that none of the views show the left side (fireman's side) of the modernized engines, which need to have a mechanical lubricator to be correct. Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:36:05 EST Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/3/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 > > Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will > leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual > clue. You might want to check out > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 > > for info and photos. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL I haven't seen the picture, but any PRR rebuild that looks like an X29g is almost indistinguishable from an X29f. I'd appreciate expert advice on how they are different (other than the interior equipment). We used to have a large fleet of each at GE for hauling appliances -- the f's were equipped with Spartan TriBelts (a useless and unsuccessful DF competitor) and were assigned to Appliance Park (Louisville) Kentucky. The g's were assigned to our Hotpoint works in Cicero (Chicago) Illinois, switched by the B& OCT; the odd thing about them was that they had no "loader" type equipment, but still were assigned to our Cicero pool as "equipped" cars under Car Service Directive 145. As most of you have already heard from my posts years ago, from circa 1958, GE had 40' assigned cars from 26 railroads. It was obvious that PRR wasn't the only carrier that rebuilt cars with 8' doors for appliance service in the late 1950's. Among other benefits, this made life very hard for the grain operators who "stole" cars every fall -- the 6' grain door liner just didn't fit these cars. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:52:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20041104021659.61976.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 12:50:00.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC160C30:01C4C26C] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, Doug, Group, I appreciate the kind words. I will consider doing another for TKM. I need to get another Bowser K4 kit. It might be a while. This MBA is killing me! But I think it is a very strait forward conversion. I think the hardest part was re-routing the running boards. I worked very closely from a photo off Gary M.'s site. I have started to do that with any model I build. I find as many photos of a specific engine number, trying to get at least a left & right side view. This helps placement of detail parts. I used a Helix Humper in this particular engine and I am very disappointed in it's performance. Anybody else have this experience? SamV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:17 PM To: Doug Kisala; svastano@hotmail.com; PRR talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Hi Doug... IIRC, one of the charachteristics of the K4sa class was the use of a front-end throttle. So if I'm correct only K4sa's had the box on the smokebox. Anyone out there know why such a bulky arrangement was used by the PRR? Other roads managed quite nicely with a small poppet valve manifold that fit inside the smokebox. BTW, Sam that is some nice modeling...consider taking Doug's advice and writing it up for TKM. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- Doug Kisala wrote: > Sam, list, > > This looks like some very nice work on your part. > You > should submit the photos and a writeup to the > Keystone > Modeler. > > I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a K4s or > K4sa with a front end throttle! > > Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:36:05 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29f, X29g, and GE In a message dated 11/3/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 > > Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will > leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual > clue. You might want to check out > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 > > for info and photos. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL I haven't seen the picture, but any PRR rebuild that looks like an X29g is almost indistinguishable from an X29f. I'd appreciate expert advice on how they are different (other than the interior equipment). We used to have a large fleet of each at GE for hauling appliances -- the f's were equipped with Spartan TriBelts (a useless and unsuccessful DF competitor) and were assigned to Appliance Park (Louisville) Kentucky. The g's were assigned to our Hotpoint works in Cicero (Chicago) Illinois, switched by the B& OCT; the odd thing about them was that they had no "loader" type equipment, but still were assigned to our Cicero pool as "equipped" cars under Car Service Directive 145. As most of you have already heard from my posts years ago, from circa 1958, GE had 40' assigned cars from 26 railroads. It was obvious that PRR wasn't the only carrier that rebuilt cars with 8' doors for appliance service in the late 1950's. Among other benefits, this made life very hard for the grain operators who "stole" cars every fall -- the 6' grain door liner just didn't fit these cars. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:32:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <35824D3A25D22944B9B21E49AF10FF4C06C5AF@server1.mstprod.local> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcTCbaR7mhLsepI+QCeNMzDFHfv1vQAHezSg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam, I am considering the HH for my Bowser K4s. What problems have you encountered. I have installed HHs in 2 L1s and am very happy with them. They still pull very well, and are much quieter and smoother running than the original DC70s. What's more, I can now double head the 2 L1s. I could never do that before. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:52 AM To: 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Bill, Doug, Group, I appreciate the kind words. I will consider doing another for TKM. I need to get another Bowser K4 kit. It might be a while. This MBA is killing me! But I think it is a very strait forward conversion. I think the hardest part was re-routing the running boards. I worked very closely from a photo off Gary M.'s site. I have started to do that with any model I build. I find as many photos of a specific engine number, trying to get at least a left & right side view. This helps placement of detail parts. I used a Helix Humper in this particular engine and I am very disappointed in it's performance. Anybody else have this experience? SamV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:17 PM To: Doug Kisala; svastano@hotmail.com; PRR talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Hi Doug... IIRC, one of the charachteristics of the K4sa class was the use of a front-end throttle. So if I'm correct only K4sa's had the box on the smokebox. Anyone out there know why such a bulky arrangement was used by the PRR? Other roads managed quite nicely with a small poppet valve manifold that fit inside the smokebox. BTW, Sam that is some nice modeling...consider taking Doug's advice and writing it up for TKM. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- Doug Kisala wrote: > Sam, list, > > This looks like some very nice work on your part. > You > should submit the photos and a writeup to the Keystone Modeler. > > I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a K4s or K4sa with a front > end throttle! > > Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:45:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Production photos of BLI's K4 are now posted to their site... http://www.broadway-limitedwest.com/k4samp.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:48:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200411041630.iA4GUNI09893@smtp-bedford.mitre.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 16:47:00.0986 (UTC) FILETIME=[E7E3CDA0:01C4C28D] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy, I think I have a bad motor. Mine smells bad after running it and has very little power. I have tested it just on the bench and there is no binding in the drivers so that is the only thing I can think of. Another reason I think it is the motor, When I first installed it, it was smooth as silk and even coasted. SamV -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 11:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com; 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Sam, I am considering the HH for my Bowser K4s. What problems have you encountered. I have installed HHs in 2 L1s and am very happy with them. They still pull very well, and are much quieter and smoother running than the original DC70s. What's more, I can now double head the 2 L1s. I could never do that before. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:52 AM To: 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Bill, Doug, Group, I appreciate the kind words. I will consider doing another for TKM. I need to get another Bowser K4 kit. It might be a while. This MBA is killing me! But I think it is a very strait forward conversion. I think the hardest part was re-routing the running boards. I worked very closely from a photo off Gary M.'s site. I have started to do that with any model I build. I find as many photos of a specific engine number, trying to get at least a left & right side view. This helps placement of detail parts. I used a Helix Humper in this particular engine and I am very disappointed in it's performance. Anybody else have this experience? SamV -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:17 PM To: Doug Kisala; svastano@hotmail.com; PRR talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Models Pictures to Share Hi Doug... IIRC, one of the charachteristics of the K4sa class was the use of a front-end throttle. So if I'm correct only K4sa's had the box on the smokebox. Anyone out there know why such a bulky arrangement was used by the PRR? Other roads managed quite nicely with a small poppet valve manifold that fit inside the smokebox. BTW, Sam that is some nice modeling...consider taking Doug's advice and writing it up for TKM. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ --- Doug Kisala wrote: > Sam, list, > > This looks like some very nice work on your part. > You > should submit the photos and a writeup to the Keystone Modeler. > > I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a K4s or K4sa with a front > end throttle! > > Doug __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:02:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam, Are these Helix Motors true Can Motors? I so, a light tap with a small ballpean hammer on the end may help settle the brushes in better position. I know this works for Sagami's when they are not running properly....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:09:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, Thanks for the alert on the photos. I took a really quick look. Something jumped out at me that looked kinda crude. Is it my eyes or are those Tender Markers, which are located in the proper position for a post war version, a bit funky looking? It appears they are just 2-d, not even 3-d relief cast on blobs. Check it out and see what I mean. It appears one will have to take a blade to slice them off and add brass castings. Again, look at the photo and please tell me I am just seeing things.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:15:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Thanks for the alert on the photos. I took a really quick look. > Something jumped out at me that looked kinda crude. Is it my eyes or > are > those Tender Markers, which are located in the proper position for a > post war version, a bit funky looking? It appears they are just 2-d, > not > even 3-d relief cast on blobs. Check it out and see what I mean. It > appears one will have to take a blade to slice them off and add brass > castings. Again, look at the photo and please tell me I am just seeing > things.....Gary Did you click on the image to bring up the higher-res version? They don't look 2D to me, but I will agree that they could be more detailed. You'd think that by their definition of "Paragon Platinum" that they would have colored lenses instead of just plastic! I still think it looks better than the (pre production) photos of the MTH offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:20:26 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <25853-418A60C2-974@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2004 17:19:00.0745 (UTC) FILETIME=[6027C790:01C4C292] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com HMMM, Just get a bigger hammer!!! Sounds like the farmers around here... No seriously Gary I will try that. It is a can motor. Hopefully that will work but I have several can motors I could replace it with. SamV -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 12:03 PM To: svastano@hotmail.com Cc: 'Andy Miller'; 'Bill Daniels'; 'Doug Kisala'; 'PRR talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Helix Humper (was:Models Pictures to Share) Sam, Are these Helix Motors true Can Motors? I so, a light tap with a small ballpean hammer on the end may help settle the brushes in better position. I know this works for Sagami's when they are not running properly....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:25:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, OK, didn't know you could zoom in on the pics. I did mention I took a quick look. Yep, they look a little better than my first glance. Appears they are the same solid plastic markers they have used on previous models. Still need to replace with Brass Cal Scale, Cary or PSC parts anyway. At least you can just pluck them out of mounting holes rather than using a blade to shave them off......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:24:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just looked at the rear of the K4 Loco as seen in the new photos Jerry mentioned that were posted on the BLI site this morning. Gone is the familiar looking metal drawbar with the holes. Looks like some kind of new "claw" that engages to something on the tender which can't been seen in any photos.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:30:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 03:24 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Just looked at the rear of the K4 Loco as seen in the new photos Jerry > mentioned that were posted on the BLI site this morning. Gone is the > familiar looking metal drawbar with the holes. Looks like some kind of > new "claw" that engages to something on the tender which can't been > seen > in any photos.....Gary I noticed that as well, but kinda shrugged it off. Looks like more of an interlocking "handshake" design rather than the traditional plate with holes that a pin goes through. Probably a better design, actually. Interesting to see will be the length of the leads between the engine and the tender. The T1 was very tight whereas the M1 had a lot of slack (which could be tucked back into the tender after connecting). I definitely prefer the longer leads. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 Production Photos Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:44:38 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary, I too saw that. I'm guessing it would be similar to the=20 way the tender on the tender connected to the Trix Big=20 Boy. In a way, BLI has made it easier to connect them. You=20 can sit both on the track, and once the claw is seated on=20 the tender pin, with a small push together they connect. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: Just looked at the rear of the K4 Loco as seen in the new=20 photos Jerry mentioned that were posted on the BLI site this morning.=20 Gone is the familiar looking metal drawbar with the holes. Looks like=20 some kind of new "claw" that engages to something on the tender which=20 can't been seen in any photos.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:17:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/572/Wed Nov 3 05:48:18 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, other than the car number, I've read the only difference was the internal equipment. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE > In a message dated 11/3/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Please Identify The PRR Boxcar In The Photo > > From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" > > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:11:59 -0600 > > > > Hi Ed--I think the boxcar is a rebuilt X29. Subclass "d" or "g"--I will > > leave that the "modern era" experts. The inset underframe is the big visual > > clue. You might want to check out > > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X29 > > > > for info and photos. > > > > Steve Hoxie > > Pensacola FL > > I haven't seen the picture, but any PRR rebuild that looks like an X29g is > almost indistinguishable from an X29f. I'd appreciate expert advice on how they > are different (other than the interior equipment). > > We used to have a large fleet of each at GE for hauling appliances -- the f's > were equipped with Spartan TriBelts (a useless and unsuccessful DF > competitor) and were assigned to Appliance Park (Louisville) Kentucky. The g's were > assigned to our Hotpoint works in Cicero (Chicago) Illinois, switched by the B& > OCT; the odd thing about them was that they had no "loader" type equipment, but > still were assigned to our Cicero pool as "equipped" cars under Car Service > Directive 145. > > As most of you have already heard from my posts years ago, from circa 1958, > GE had 40' assigned cars from 26 railroads. It was obvious that PRR wasn't the > only carrier that rebuilt cars with 8' doors for appliance service in the > late 1950's. Among other benefits, this made life very hard for the grain > operators who "stole" cars every fall -- the 6' grain door liner just didn't fit > these cars. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:01:43 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] K4sa and front end throttles From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:30:15 EST Subject: [PRR] FM Trainmasters X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com When did the PRR get the H24-66's? Maybe I missed it but has anyone reviewed the Atlas units? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-TALK@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] FM Trainmasters Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:41:12 -0500 To: CENTGA@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:30 PM, CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > When did the PRR get the H24-66's? Maybe I missed it but has anyone > reviewed > the Atlas units? Todd Horton Class FS24m arrived on the Pennsy in 1956. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:02:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6323EE53-2F33-11D9-AF09-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand, but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals. The jury is still out, but I wanted to pass on the "head's up" for those considering the model. The conversation continues. The current plan is to scan the sides and place them online next to actual photos for comparison. The Branchline 12-1 is said to be correct. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Olszewski" Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:33:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-reply-to: <000e01c4c2d5$43adc220$3354c840@b6x9501> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I want to thank everyone for their responses on and off the list. As this was my first post I am impressed with the patience you have all shown and the quality of the information provided to me. Elden, thanks for the ideas for using the Branchline box cars as a starting point. I am going to be exhibiting at the Central New York Train Fair this weekend and will be looking for the 40' and 50' cars you suggested. Rick, the only other difference between the X29f and X29g I have been able to find so far is the Lt Weight of the X29f is 54,300 lbs and the Lt Weight of the X29g is 53,300 lbs. I got this information off the Equipment Diagrams available on railfan.net. This difference could be from the different internal equipment between the cars or they had different structures that resulted in a savings of half a ton between the cars when empty. Both classes of cars used the same trucks, 2D-F19H. And to Ben Holm, I look forward to the next installment of your X29 series in TKM! Thanks, Ed Olszewski -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:18 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Rick, other than the car number, I've read the only difference was the internal equipment. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE [ remainder of message removed, see archives ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0600 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8414@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Thread-Index: AcTDRLgem6wf9P+HS4Otljzz5kJDqwADTDXg From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Ed Olszewski" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am not 100% sure, but I believe one or the other X29f or g was fitted (on the interior) for grain loading and the other for general merchandise. A box car outfitted for grain loading had an opening at the bottom of the lining so that grain that managed to get behind the interior lining could leak out onto the floor. The others had cleats every so many feet up the walls to tie metal strapping over the lading to keep it from skating around the car interior during transit. Both models were built during the mammoth freight car building boom in 1961-1962 as I recall. One of those years the PRR built or rebuilt 23,500 freight cars, about 80% at Sam Rea in Hollidaysburg shop. The rest came from Pullman Standard in Hammond, IN. Possibly a few from Butler, PA. Bill -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ed Olszewski Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 9:34 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE All, I want to thank everyone for their responses on and off the list. As this was my first post I am impressed with the patience you have all shown and the quality of the information provided to me. Elden, thanks for the ideas for using the Branchline box cars as a starting point. I am going to be exhibiting at the Central New York Train Fair this weekend and will be looking for the 40' and 50' cars you suggested. Rick, the only other difference between the X29f and X29g I have been able to find so far is the Lt Weight of the X29f is 54,300 lbs and the Lt Weight of the X29g is 53,300 lbs. I got this information off the Equipment Diagrams available on railfan.net. This difference could be from the different internal equipment between the cars or they had different structures that resulted in a savings of half a ton between the cars when empty. Both classes of cars used the same trucks, 2D-F19H. And to Ben Holm, I look forward to the next installment of your X29 series in TKM! Thanks, Ed Olszewski -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:18 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE Rick, other than the car number, I've read the only difference was the internal equipment. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE [ remainder of message removed, see archives ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:44:39 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry writes... >I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand,< Let's refrain from comments beyond this point regarding the WKW Heavyweight passenger cars including the newly released 12-1, IF in fact you are not a member of the PCL list... Also, we as Pennsy Modelers should discount any statements of speculation as just that uneductated speculation. There is a full review foirthcoming from Bruce Smith. >but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals.< One of the best points is that Dennis Storzek (ACCURAIL) did a very convincing study of the windows and discounted these rumors... Select members of the PRRT&HS Modeling committee have been privy to both measurement results, excluding Bruce Smith in order that he can remain nuetral in his study... >The jury is still out, but I wanted to pass on the "head's up" for those considering the model. The conversation continues. The current plan is to scan the sides and place them online next to actual photos for comparison.< The best resolution will be a measurement of the windows to drawingss as has been done. I (adn slelect memebers of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee) also have seen one other comparison that supports Dennis' claims. But again allow Bruce, without bias, to do his job for The Keystone Modelers... >The Branchline 12-1 is said to be correct.< Bruce will also review the Branchline kit and I don't dispute the fact that Branchlines are correct either. I saw their 8-1-2 with Laser Cut Windows installed and they were impressive... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:01:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 02:44 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Jerry writes... > >> I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first >> hand,< > > Let's refrain from comments beyond this point regarding the WKW > Heavyweight passenger cars including the newly released 12-1, IF in > fact you are not a member of the PCL list... Also, we as Pennsy > Modelers should discount any statements of speculation as just that > uneductated speculation. There is a full review foirthcoming from > Bruce Smith. > >> but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw Greg: 1) I did not say it was fact. I said "there are reports" and indicated it was being researched further. I also indicated "where" (the PCL list on YeeHaw) so people who were interested could follow the subject directly; 2) I AM a member of the PCL list. I guess then, by your own words, I am allowed to discuss the matter. Thank you for your permission. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Personal follow up to Future Conventions Thread Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:58:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am personally following up to the recent thread on "Future Conventions" which I believe started on PRR-FAX as "Geographic Location of Members." The subject really interested me, and at the urging of several people, I am seeing whether I can keep it going and do something with it. In addition to possibly eventually identifying possibly future convention sites, fallout could include new members, local conventions, local conventions or chapter meetings for other organizations (NMRA comes to mind), or even a new chapter or two. I am copying PRR-FAX & PRR-Talk on this message, but want to take the discussion off-line. So please, please, respond to me off-line. I have no illusions here - I realize the initial enthusiasm about these things quickly fades and we're on to new topics, business as usual, and today's crises in our lives. But hopefully I (or one or more of us) can keep this one going. And please let's try to discipline ourselves: a) No me-too responses; b) don't copy us all unless individuals indicate they prefer to be copied (I do!); c) if someone asks to be taken off the list, please update your address list/book - let's respect their wishes; d) please don't copy the e-mail lists unless the List-Meisters ask us too - I'll send summary updates as appropriate; e) Please keep Subject line current, but always include the word "Conventions" in the subject line as I will auto-forward the messages to a separate e-mail folder for convenience in locating and handling. And f) very important - should be A-1, please don't involve the PRRT&HS board of directors - they are volunteers with much more than they can handle already. Thanks! I got your names and e-mails from your responses to the initial thread (except for Jerry Shickler who has the great website on the P&E, E&P, & Chataqua Branches). I will also pull other names from folks who have PRR websites as time permits. If you would like me to drop your name from this discussion list, just let me know and consider it done. And please, send replies to me off list - resist the temptation to hit "reply all" or copy the list, unless the List-Meisters prefer otherwise. I will copy the lists on summaries periodically as appropriate. I will send a summary of my own thoughts in a day or two Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Triumph VII Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:01:16 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please keep me posted on the progress of Triumph VII. Since I'm on the hook for a presentation on Williamsport at Camp Hill in May, I'm obviously eager to obtain a copy at the earliest possible moment. If anyone is aware of an early copy being released, please let me know. Thanks! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Need contact info for Bill Coloroso Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:32:50 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone have contact info for Bill Coloroso (PRR Elmira Branch) e-mail, phone, or otherwise? Thanks! Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:04:16 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Enola Yard program in Harrisburg on Monday night Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Jerry and the List: For those who are within driving distance of Harrisburg, on Monday night (Nov. 8) at 7 pm, I'll be giving a slide program on the history of Enola Yard, at the Dauphin County Historical Society's John Harris Mansion at 219 S. Front St. in Harrisburg. More specifically, the mansion is located between the Cumberland Valley bridge and the Reading bridge. Admission is free but the society has limited seating capacity, so if anyone is interested in attending, you might want to call and register to save a space (Office hours are Mon.-Thurs. 10 am to 4 pm) at 717-233-3462. Driving directions are available at http://www.dauphincountyhistoricalsociety.org/info.htm Info for those who are out of the area: I'll be giving a similar program at next spring's PRRT&HS convention. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:08:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <6323EE53-2F33-11D9-AF09-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand, but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals. I have seen the PCL comments as well as the results of subsequent analysis from other respected modelers. From what I can see I believe the "well-respected individual" may be found wanting. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:34:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/5/2004 5:16:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: Re: I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 directly, so I do not know first hand, but there are reports on the Passenger Car List (PCL) on YeeHaw that the windows may be incorrect in size (or exact placement). These reports are being made by well-respected individuals. I have seen the PCL comments as well as the results of subsequent analysis from other respected modelers. From what I can see I believe the "well-respected individual" may be found wanting. That may be until you examine the size of the rivet heads, the alignment of the stripes and the letter thickness and color of the lettering and striping. There is a distinct difference. I am not saying which is correct just that side-by-side there is a noticable difference. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Dynamic counterbalance X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/1/04 11:03:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:54:31 -0000 > From: "tim_zukas" > Subject: Re: sidebar on balancing > > > "...counterbalance is only completely effective at one speed of > rotation." > > Can you give an example of a locomotive that is unbalanced at 20 mph > and balanced at 40 mph-- or whatever higher speed you like? Tim, Short answer -- any rodded locomotive. But read on... Just to get a couple of points out of the way, I accept without problem the assertion that quartering is the best way to join drivers with rods, as it avoids "dead" spots. I would also hope that you understand that static balancing of the rotating parts is desirable, but that the real problem is balancing the various centrifugal forces of rotation - in other words, dynamic balancing. Also, please remember that there is theory -- and there is the real world, where sometimes theory works (and sometimes it doesn't, exactly). Please excuse the following, as most of it is in physics-speak. The wheels on a diesel locomotive (or on your car) are axle-driven without rods, and thus can be "radially symmetrical" -- although they still have to be "balanced" to get rid of small errors in their symmetry. By contrast, every locomotive whose rotating parts are not radially symmetrical around the axle centers has to be balanced "statically", and also "dynamically". In static balancing, we know that the rods and counterweights physically may not be the same distance from the axis of rotation -- for example, where the counterweight is out next to the tire, and the rod bearing is farther in on the wheel. But since the angular momentum is proportional to the mass times the moment arm, the amount of counterweight for static balancing is straightforward to calculate. Unfortunately, the counterbalance will not in general be the same distance out the axle as the rod -- the rod is hung on the outside of the wheel. As we know from experience with washing machines, an unsymmetrical rotating assembly can lead to very strong gyroscopic ("slinging") forces. Fortunately, this problem of unsymmetrical angular momentums is proportional to the square of the speed of rotation, so low-speed errors in dynamic counterbalance would usually result in forces low enough to ignore. But at higher speeds, any errors in dynamic counterbalance should show up as rough riding, high bearing forces, marking the track, etc. There have to be other factors that I haven't addressed -- like how much of the main rod weight is carried by the drive wheel, are there other adjustments for rod thrust, etc. I know little about that stuff, but a good steam locomotive designer did. In practice, a steam locomotive (or rodded electric or diesel-electric) was dynamically counterbalanced by design (and test in the real world!) to run smoothest at its intended operating speed, and would have unpleasant riding and tracking characteristics at still higher speeds. The specs, which someone on the list found were changed by PRR over time, undoubtedly reflected a progress from a set of theoretical calculations to tested alternatives that gave even better results. The I1, a drag engine design, was probably a good practical example of large dynamic counterbalance error -- it had massive rods coupling four drivers, and reportedly it became a real joltwagon if run above a certain speed. The T1 represents the other extreme -- with only two coupled axles, the alloy rods could be lighter, and "dynamic augment" was not a problem until somewhere north of 100 mph. I wish now that I still had the steam locomotive engineering books we sold from Jack Fravert's estate -- they would probably shed light on the real world of counterbalancing. All I have on hand is the humorous fiction story "Counterbalance" by A.W. Somerville, which appears in Donovan and Henry's Headlights and Markers. In this story, Master Mechanic T.P. Patchbolt solves a mystery involving a passenger engine and a fatal derailment. The point of the yarn is that, improperly counterbalanced, a steam engine could jump off the track at a speed as low as 42 miles an hour. It's been fun following this thread -- now let's get back to Pennsy history and equipment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City tunnels X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/4/04 5:41:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:02:22 -0000 > From: "Andy Hart" > Subject: Re: BEV-BEL HO 50' REA Wood Refrigerator > > > --- In PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" > wrote: > > > >Dave (drrhid@h...) asked: > >"Are the subject models representative of an actual PRR class?" > > > >NO. The Pennsy did not own any 50 ft DS express reefers. > > > > > >"If not, does anyone know what road they belong to?" > > > >The Athearn 50 ft DS express reefer is closest to a class of > Pacific > >Fruit Express express reefers; > > > >These cars did run in PRR mail and express trains (though runs > into > >NYC/Sunnyside are in question due to their construction. Does > >anyone have hard evidence; i.e., not hearsay, confirming or > denying > >wooden express car routing into NYC or Sunnyside?) > > > >Ben Hom > > Ben and others, > > I have uploaded a photo to the files section showing a PFE express > reefer on the tracks leading into Pennsylvania Express Terminal > (PXT) at Sunnyside Yard. > > The car is one of the type that had a wide fascia board. The car > number cannot be determined from the photo. > > The photo was taken from Harold Ave. looking north. Behind the car > are a PRR R60 express reefer, 5 N5 cabin cars assigned to > mail/express service, a B60b baggage car, and several Pullman > sleepers. The car is coupled to a PRR R50b reefer. In the > background is the rear of "R" tower. > > The photo is taken around 1940. > > Andy Hart Listmates, The Pennsy was adamant about running only all-steel cars in the tunnels to Penn Station New York. PRR veteran Don Hess (now a resident of Cincinnati) used to work in Pittsburgh in the '50s-- and tells the story of operating men trying to catch any cars not all-steel there before they can even get close to Manhattan. The Pittsburgh passenger forces were supposed to switch out all woodsheathed cars so that their contents could be reloaded into suitable steel baggages or express reefers, which then had to be forwarded with minimum delay. His story includes the mention that the most common woodsheathed car stopped at Pittsburgh was New York Central express reefers. After being unloaded, they were most conveniently flushed from the system on the Clevelander; at Cleveland, they could be interchanged back to the NYCS. Obviously, a leaker got through from time to time -- and don't forget there were nontunnel ways this car MIGHT have gotten there, although presence in Sunnyside is a pretty good sign it came through the Hudson and East River tunnels. Bottom line, we can be confident that most days, any PRR, REX, or other headend equipment will be all-steel classes on Pennsy passenger or mail/express schedules running Pittsburgh-New York. Assuming the PFE 50' passenger reefer in the picture cited is woodsheathed, this picture represents an unusual event, not sanctioned by the management. PS -- if you ever get the chance to hear Don Hess talk about his days on the Pennsy, make time to listen. He's got a lot of great stories... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/06/04 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/6/04 1:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Class FS24m arrived on the Pennsy in 1956. And according to Dave Sweetland's fourth PRR color volume (just out), all 9 of them were assigned to Columbus Ohio by the mid-sixties. Sometimes I just luck out... (I'm modeling Columbus and am a big fan of EMD and FM power) Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:57 EST Subject: [PRR] More on 40' appliance cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, Usually I find your posts to be spot on. I hate to nitpick this time, but have to disagree with some of your statements below (see comments): In a message dated 11/6/04 1:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE > From: "Bill Volkmer" > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0600 > > I am not 100% sure, but I believe one or the other X29f or g was fitted > (on the interior) for grain loading and the other for general > merchandise. A box car outfitted for grain loading had an opening at > the bottom of the lining so that grain that managed to get behind the > interior lining could leak out onto the floor. The others had cleats > every so many feet up the walls to tie metal strapping over the lading > to keep it from skating around the car interior during transit. The metal strap anchors were on the X29g. I know from being inside them that the X29f had bars with Spartan Tri Belt sockets built into the walls. These STB loaders did the same job as Evans DF bars; they were simply a less useful and less successful competitor in 1957/58 when these cars were rebuilt. The 8 foot doors were the first thing that told you these two classes were not grain cars. In the case of the STB-equipped X29F, add in the unholy mess that resulted when elevator operators actually succeeded in getting a load of grain into one (this did happen occasionally). The grain didn't clear out of all the sockets and spaces in the car's sidewall/lining, and rotted there. A car in this condition is unfit for loading kitchen appliances in cardboard cartons -- it stinks to high heaven, and requires a thorough and laborious cleaning by car forces. I don't know right now which class you might be thinking of instead, but we loaded these boxcars hundreds of times a year (X29F and X29G, assigned to GE appliance). I cannot prove or disprove that the rest of each class were assigned to our competitors (Whirlpool, White Consolidated, Frigidaire, etc), but the 8 foot door for fork lift loading of appliances 3 wide was demanded by appliance manufacturers relatively early in the game -- it was a matter of warehouse productivity. Original X29's were the perfect rebuild fodder for appliance hauling -- the rebuilds needed a higher inside height (IL) and an 8' wide door, but the total load of the car was light. Thus, even though rated at 50 tons as rebuilt, you could use the original underframe because cars of appliances are "mostly shipping air". The other 25 railroads in this pool came up with similar cars -- and probably many were rebuilds of some kind. They did differ -- most of the nonPennsy cars had DF-2 bars, which were really useful in keeping the stacked appliances from bouncing around the car. Just about all had 8' doors, although the Southern Pacific's cars were double door cars (12' doorway?), with DF bars extending 4' into the doorway of the left door. And most had that "late 50's billboard" look, as the railroads dieselized and tried to make their car graphics more modern. > > Both models were built during the mammoth freight car building boom in > 1961-1962 as I recall. One of those years the PRR built or rebuilt > 23,500 freight cars, about 80% at Sam Rea in Hollidaysburg shop. The > rest came from Pullman Standard in Hammond, IN. Possibly a few from > Butler, PA. These classes' rebuilding came slightly earlier. The tipoff is that they're lettered in SK2a -- a scheme used from 1957 to 1960, and superseded by SK2b. IIRC, the date on most of them is 1958 (I need to check my slides, but those are interred deep in the basement at present). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:54:11 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick: Page 329 of PPII also has a PFE express reefer (wood, I believe) behind the GG1 Pittsburgh-NY on the Metropolitan. Not saying this disputes the rule, just giving an example of another possible exception, I think. Though I suppose it could be set out before the tunnels if there was a stop (not a line I am that familiar with the schedules). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Bottom line, we can be confident that most days, any PRR, REX, or other > headend equipment will be all-steel classes on Pennsy passenger or mail/express > schedules running Pittsburgh-New York. Assuming the PFE 50' passenger reefer in > the picture cited is woodsheathed, this picture represents an unusual event, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:34 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Dynamic counterbalance >"tim_zukas" > > "...counterbalance is only completely effective at one speed of > rotation." > > Can you give an example of a locomotive that is unbalanced at 20 mph > and balanced at 40 mph-- or whatever higher speed you like? Tim, Short answer -- any rodded locomotive. But read on... Just to get a couple of points out of the way, I accept without problem the assertion that quartering is the best way to join drivers with rods, as it avoids "dead" spots. I would also hope that you understand that static balancing of the rotating parts is desirable, but that the real problem is balancing the various centrifugal forces of rotation - in other words, dynamic balancing. Also, please remember that there is theory -- and there is the real world, where sometimes theory works (and sometimes it doesn't, exactly). Please excuse the following, as most of it is in physics-speak. The wheels on a diesel locomotive (or on your car) are axle-driven without rods, and thus can be "radially symmetrical" -- although they still have to be "balanced" to get rid of small errors in their symmetry. By contrast, every locomotive whose rotating parts are not radially symmetrical around the axle centers has to be balanced "statically", and also "dynamically". In static balancing, we know that the rods and counterweights physically may not be the same distance from the axis of rotation -- for example, where the counterweight is out next to the tire, and the rod bearing is farther in on the wheel. But since the angular momentum is proportional to the mass times the moment arm, the amount of counterweight for static balancing is straightforward to calculate. Unfortunately, the counterbalance will not in general be the same distance out the axle as the rod -- the rod is hung on the outside of the wheel. As we know from experience with washing machines, an unsymmetrical rotating assembly can lead to very strong gyroscopic ("slinging") forces. Fortunately, this problem of unsymmetrical angular momentums is proportional to the square of the speed of rotation, so low-speed errors in dynamic counterbalance would usually result in forces low enough to ignore. But at higher speeds, any errors in dynamic counterbalance should show up as rough riding, high bearing forces, marking the track, etc. There have to be other factors that I haven't addressed -- like how much of the main rod weight is carried by the drive wheel, are there other adjustments for rod thrust, etc. I know little about that stuff, but a good steam locomotive designer did. In practice, a steam locomotive (or rodded electric or diesel-electric) was dynamically counterbalanced by design (and test in the real world!) to run smoothest at its intended operating speed, and would have unpleasant riding and tracking characteristics at still higher speeds. The specs, which someone on the list found were changed by PRR over time, undoubtedly reflected a progress from a set of theoretical calculations to tested alternatives that gave even better results. The I1, a drag engine design, was probably a good practical example of large dynamic counterbalance error -- it had massive rods coupling four drivers, and reportedly it became a real joltwagon if run above a certain speed. The T1 represents the other extreme -- with only two coupled axles, the alloy rods could be lighter, and "dynamic augment" was not a problem until somewhere north of 100 mph. I wish now that I still had the steam locomotive engineering books we sold from Jack Fravert's estate -- they would probably shed light on the real world of counterbalancing. All I have on hand is the humorous fiction story "Counterbalance" by A.W. Somerville, which appears in Donovan and Henry's Headlights and Markers. In this story, Master Mechanic T.P. Patchbolt solves a mystery involving a passenger engine and a fatal derailment. The point of the yarn is that, improperly counterbalanced, a steam engine could jump off the track at a speed as low as 42 miles an hour. It's been fun following this thread -- now let's get back to Pennsy history and equipment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:43 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City tunnels Listmates, The Pennsy was adamant about running only all-steel cars in the tunnels to Penn Station New York. PRR veteran Don Hess (now a resident of Cincinnati) used to work in Pittsburgh in the '50s-- and tells the story of operating men trying to catch any cars not all-steel there before they can even get close to Manhattan. The Pittsburgh passenger forces were supposed to switch out all woodsheathed cars so that their contents could be reloaded into suitable steel baggages or express reefers, which then had to be forwarded with minimum delay. His story includes the mention that the most common woodsheathed car stopped at Pittsburgh was New York Central express reefers. After being unloaded, they were most conveniently flushed from the system on the Clevelander; at Cleveland, they could be interchanged back to the NYCS. Obviously, a leaker got through from time to time -- and don't forget there were nontunnel ways this car MIGHT have gotten there, although presence in Sunnyside is a pretty good sign it came through the Hudson and East River tunnels. Bottom line, we can be confident that most days, any PRR, REX, or other headend equipment will be all-steel classes on Pennsy passenger or mail/express schedules running Pittsburgh-New York. Assuming the PFE 50' passenger reefer in the picture cited is woodsheathed, this picture represents an unusual event, not sanctioned by the management. PS -- if you ever get the chance to hear Don Hess talk about his days on the Pennsy, make time to listen. He's got a lot of great stories... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:20:57 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] More on 40' appliance cars Bill, Usually I find your posts to be spot on. I hate to nitpick this time, but have to disagree with some of your statements below (see comments): In a message dated 11/6/04 1:11:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] X29f, X29g, and GE > From: "Bill Volkmer" > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:57:16 -0600 > > I am not 100% sure, but I believe one or the other X29f or g was fitted > (on the interior) for grain loading and the other for general > merchandise. A box car outfitted for grain loading had an opening at > the bottom of the lining so that grain that managed to get behind the > interior lining could leak out onto the floor. The others had cleats > every so many feet up the walls to tie metal strapping over the lading > to keep it from skating around the car interior during transit. The metal strap anchors were on the X29g. I know from being inside them that the X29f had bars with Spartan Tri Belt sockets built into the walls. These STB loaders did the same job as Evans DF bars; they were simply a less useful and less successful competitor in 1957/58 when these cars were rebuilt. The 8 foot doors were the first thing that told you these two classes were not grain cars. In the case of the STB-equipped X29F, add in the unholy mess that resulted when elevator operators actually succeeded in getting a load of grain into one (this did happen occasionally). The grain didn't clear out of all the sockets and spaces in the car's sidewall/lining, and rotted there. A car in this condition is unfit for loading kitchen appliances in cardboard cartons -- it stinks to high heaven, and requires a thorough and laborious cleaning by car forces. I don't know right now which class you might be thinking of instead, but we loaded these boxcars hundreds of times a year (X29F and X29G, assigned to GE appliance). I cannot prove or disprove that the rest of each class were assigned to our competitors (Whirlpool, White Consolidated, Frigidaire, etc), but the 8 foot door for fork lift loading of appliances 3 wide was demanded by appliance manufacturers relatively early in the game -- it was a matter of warehouse productivity. Original X29's were the perfect rebuild fodder for appliance hauling -- the rebuilds needed a higher inside height (IL) and an 8' wide door, but the total load of the car was light. Thus, even though rated at 50 tons as rebuilt, you could use the original underframe because cars of appliances are "mostly shipping air". The other 25 railroads in this pool came up with similar cars -- and probably many were rebuilds of some kind. They did differ -- most of the nonPennsy cars had DF-2 bars, which were really useful in keeping the stacked appliances from bouncing around the car. Just about all had 8' doors, although the Southern Pacific's cars were double door cars (12' doorway?), with DF bars extending 4' into the doorway of the left door. And most had that "late 50's billboard" look, as the railroads dieselized and tried to make their car graphics more modern. > > Both models were built during the mammoth freight car building boom in > 1961-1962 as I recall. One of those years the PRR built or rebuilt > 23,500 freight cars, about 80% at Sam Rea in Hollidaysburg shop. The > rest came from Pullman Standard in Hammond, IN. Possibly a few from > Butler, PA. These classes' rebuilding came slightly earlier. The tipoff is that they're lettered in SK2a -- a scheme used from 1957 to 1960, and superseded by SK2b. IIRC, the date on most of them is 1958 (I need to check my slides, but those are interred deep in the basement at present). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 02:51:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich Orr (SUVCWORR@aol.com)writes: That may be until you examine the size of the rivet heads, the alignment of the stripes and the letter thickness and color of the lettering and striping. There is a distinct difference. I am not saying which is correct just that side-by-side there is a noticeable difference. Rich Orr Rich, I having been following the thread on the PCL as well and most guys bias are showing... Got any good ideas on how I can add rivets to the roof of my Branchline 8-1-2 as they need to be there. Just wanted to know if you have any suggestions... All this is very subjective... I guess we should just kick it all around until Bruce gives a report in TKM. The color will always be subjective but I think there was no objectionable difference between the BL and the WKW when I saw them in Naperville and the color of the lettering flowed real well with the WKW 10-5 in FOM, for both BL and WKW... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Pray for Bruce Smith Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:59:53 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dear friends, It is with much regret that I advise you that our very good friend and fellow PRR modeler Bruce Smith is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism. His wife, Tami emailed me this morning about his condition. The good news is it appears that he turned the corner yesterday afternoon and is on the road to recovery. The bad news is he will likely be in the hospital for the next 3-5 days (perhaps longer) and it is not very clear at all how much he will be able to do in the coming weeks. What a trooper he is, as he told Tami to contact me as I might be waiting for stuff from him for TKM and he wanted me to know it would be delayed and not sure for how long. Please join me in praying for Bruce's rapid recovery and return to his normal activities. Those wishing to send him a get well card, his address is: 642 Woody Drive Auburn, Al 36832-3400 Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pattirobpatti@cs.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 08:57:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Restricting woodsheathed cars from the New York City X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, In the Make-up of Trains: New York Division, No. 19, April 29, 1950, Train 54 "Gotham Limited" has noted as the first car(s) in its consist: Exp. (Perishable) (x) Chicago-J. City Off at Hudson Cars listed with an (x) run when needed. The consist for Train 25 "The Metropolitan" in the same source does not list any Refrigerated Express cars in its consist. However, there is a listing for an "X29 (Papers) (x) J. City-Pittsburgh". I recall reading that Express Reefers were sometimes substituted for other cars when needed. The photo in Pennsy Power II on page 329, taken at North Philadelphia station, shows GG1 # 4880 in the single broad stripe paint scheme. The consist for the Metropolitan in the later 1950s may have been different. I don't have such later info. Bottom line, the PFE express car in the PP II photo may have been cut off before getting to the Hudson Tunnels. For people modelling PRR passenger train consists, we can still use those wooden express reefers on trains across the Pittsburgh, Middle, and Philadelphia Divisions, so long as the cars are destined for/originate at Harrisburg, Philadelphia or Jersey City. Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 07:59:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pray for Bruce Smith Dear friends, It is with much regret that I advise you that our very good friend and fellow PRR modeler Bruce Smith is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism. His wife, Tami emailed me this morning about his condition. The good news is it appears that he turned the corner yesterday afternoon and is on the road to recovery. The bad news is he will likely be in the hospital for the next 3-5 days (perhaps longer) and it is not very clear at all how much he will be able to do in the coming weeks. What a trooper he is, as he told Tami to contact me as I might be waiting for stuff from him for TKM and he wanted me to know it would be delayed and not sure for how long. Please join me in praying for Bruce's rapid recovery and return to his normal activities. Those wishing to send him a get well card, his address is: 642 Woody Drive Auburn, Al 36832-3400 Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:34:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 11/7/2004 2:51:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN writes: Rich Orr (SUVCWORR@aol.com)writes: That may be until you examine the size of the rivet heads, the alignment of the stripes and the letter thickness and color of the lettering and striping. There is a distinct difference. I am not saying which is correct just that side-by-side there is a noticeable difference. Rich Orr Rich, I having been following the thread on the PCL as well and most guys bias are showing... Geez Greg, If there was bias in my statement, I guess I have no concept of a non-commital unbias statement of observations. I did not name which model was which. I did not attribute the observed differences to either manufacturer. I did not state that either was perfect as neither is in my opinion. Just where is the bias? With the exception of the thickness and color of the letters at least on the cars in my hand, I would agree that the differences which I mentioned would not be noticeable in a moving train. One car has a very metalic gold color lettering and striping while the other appears to be more yellowish and less metalic. Or if you prefer gold leaf vs. Deluxe gold. Note: I am