From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy handrails are distinctive X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:38:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > types used here. Hi Earl, Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted to last into this era. 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle the > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot under their outside sheathing. 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding and scrapping in the '30s. 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures and parts to save money. 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue to operate with the cupola they preferred. > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > Earl Myers > Canton District in HO, 1944 > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. After all, this was glorious steam! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy handrails are distinctive In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy handrails are distinctive In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:38:03 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > types used here. Hi Earl, Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted to last into this era. 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle the > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot under their outside sheathing. 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding and scrapping in the '30s. 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures and parts to save money. 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue to operate with the cupola they preferred. > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > Earl Myers > Canton District in HO, 1944 > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. After all, this was glorious steam! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Bay-Window Brick Interlocking Tower Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:46:59 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Mount Vernon Shops is pleased to announce that for the=20 first time in HO a standard 8-20 Machione Bay-Window Brick=20 Interlocking tower is being Produced based on blueprints,=20 photographs and actual measurement of the existing tower=20 style.=20 This kit features a flemish-bond brickwork pattern=20 unavilible anywhere else in HO scale. Also included are an=20 optional foundation for hillside placement. The kit is=20 made of laser cut and engraved acrylic and its assembly is=20 like that of a plastic building while, having the detail=20 of a resin kit. A first-run of 100 is planned so order yours today. For more information please visit www.mountvernonshops.com=20 O & N scalers, this tower will sonn be availible in your=20 scale too. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:53:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Mr. Rick and others: If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's? as early as the 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at least one from the era just after the facility opened...) My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in everything else because of light track and light finances. Just as Crestline was a dead-end for big power, Delmarva was the last refuge for little power (last steam Class D, old sharks, old Baldwin switchers, etc.) Jim McDaniel, who prefers the look of the N6 to the N5 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:53:03 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mr. Rick and others: If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's? as early as the 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at least one from the era just after the facility opened...) My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in everything else because of light track and light finances. Just as Crestline was a dead-end for big power, Delmarva was the last refuge for little power (last steam Class D, old sharks, old Baldwin switchers, etc.) Jim McDaniel, who prefers the look of the N6 to the N5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:58:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... On Oct 1, 2004, at 6:53 AM, James L. McDaniel wrote: > Mr. Rick and others: > > If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did > Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's?=A0 as early as the > 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at > least one from the era just after the facility opened...) > > My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in=20 > everything > else because of light track and light finances.=A0 Jim, Wasn't Delmarva the home of most of the NDA conversions too (ND stuck=20 on trucks)? As for bobbers, a fair number were still around at least=20 through the end of WWII in revenue service. Post war shots include the=20 Octoraro branch as well as other locations... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->=20 Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 =20 Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ =20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:58:56 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 1, 2004, at 6:53 AM, James L. McDaniel wrote: > Mr. Rick and others: > > If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did > Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's?=A0 as early as = the > 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at > least one from the era just after the facility opened...) > > My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in=20 > everything > else because of light track and light finances.=A0 Jim, Wasn't Delmarva the home of most of the NDA conversions too (ND stuck=20 on trucks)? As for bobbers, a fair number were still around at least=20 through the end of WWII in revenue service. Post war shots include the=20= Octoraro branch as well as other locations... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:06:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:38 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was > to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center > cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars > were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, > though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. > Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, > the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and > once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car > structures > and parts to save money. I believe that there is a photo of an N6b with a built date around 1942 in either Color Guide 1 or 2... Multiple explanations exist including new construction on a stored underframe, a newly rebuilt ND, and a dyslexic painter SInce WWII was a period of intense cabin car shortage, I favor the first explanation. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:06:31 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:38 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was > to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center > cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars > were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, > though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. > Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, > the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and > once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car > structures > and parts to save money. I believe that there is a photo of an N6b with a built date around 1942 in either Color Guide 1 or 2... Multiple explanations exist including new construction on a stored underframe, a newly rebuilt ND, and a dyslexic painter SInce WWII was a period of intense cabin car shortage, I favor the first explanation. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS meeting Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:12:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Chicago Chapter will be having our next regularly scheduled meeting on Saturday October 23 in the Pullman Visitor Center at 2:00PM. John Sheets will be presenting a program on the Mt. Carmel ore run. Anyone who will be in the area is welcome to attend. If you need further information please feel free to contact me off list. Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:14:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... I plead ignorance on the NDa question...Jim McD ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:14:20 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I plead ignorance on the NDa question...Jim McD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Keystones to trade? Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:30:53 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.1.2 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, I have dupes of some Keystones. Does any one have any to trade? There aren't too many issues I need but figured it's worth a try. I have dupes of Vol 12 #3 (Sept 1979), Vol 13 #1 (March 1980), Vol 16 #3 (Sept 1983) Volumes I need are Vol 10 (1977) #1,2,3,4 -- Vol 11 (1978) #1,2,3,4 -- Vol 13 (1980) #3,4 -- Vol 15 (1982) #1,2 or Vol 16 (1983) # 2 Or if you don't have any to trade but are selling any of the issues I need, I'm open to purchasing them... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 06:12:49 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > > > Rick; > > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > > types used here. > > Hi Earl, > > Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list > (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: > 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by > retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and > N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be > lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). > 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted > to last into this era. > 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as > long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). > > The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle > the > > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. > > 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden > 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on > this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted > ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and > distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big > car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was > moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were > moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different > locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot > under their outside sheathing. > > 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort > Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" > cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with > this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and > it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. > > 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between > Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering > upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on > this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were > vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same > Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. > > 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module > -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be > refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was > taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a > hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding > and scrapping in the '30s. > > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures > and parts to save money. > > 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time > that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has > demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so > much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do > this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I > also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue > to operate with the cupola they preferred. > > > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > > Earl Myers > > Canton District in HO, 1944 > > > > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, > and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic > suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I > was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't > believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. > After all, this was glorious steam! > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] Rail fest activity list .... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:22:56 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List , I am looking for a schedule or list of events at Railfest this weekend = ...but i can't seem to find any complete info. Does anyone have a good = address for info....... Thanks , Mike Hmel =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:11:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jamie Bothwell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [151.197.192.173] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:11:32 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 1, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Incidently, all the N6a's were rebuilt into N6b's in > the early 1940's. Bill and All, I have a copy of a 1957 cabin car assignment sheet that lists N6a 980229 still assigned to the Northwestern Region. The specific assignment is listed as "Chicago". Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:51:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Well,what can I say? Long time ago I (thought) I > learned never to say never, always, and other > all-inclusive statements when refering to the PRR. > > Anyone out there know if the 980229 really was a N6a? > Or was it a typo on the assignment sheet? No, probably not a typo. We've discussed this car on PRR-talk before, and it appears to have been a real survivor... but the only one of the N6A class. Photos are rare to non-existent however, and it definitely represents an "oddball". BTW, for those who find themselves with too many Quality/Gloor Craft N6A cabin kits , you can always use the parts to build either ND bobbers, or NDA cabins, both of which outlasted the N6A by a number of years... Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:59:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Any word on when this engine will hit the shelves? Right now they are listed as Winter 04, but on a German site they are listed as Sping 2005. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:26:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I sold my half -completed Quality/Gloor Craft N6A kit when I picked up a brass for a good price. Though my mainline running is at at a club, I rationalize that,since I model the roster of the Chicago Division, I can own one N6A in 1950+/- :-). If you guys had said that roster item was a misprint, you would have ruined my weekend :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > BTW, for those who find themselves with too many Quality/Gloor Craft N6A > cabin kits , you can always use the parts to build either ND bobbers, > or NDA cabins, both of which outlasted the N6A by a number of years... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:21:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-MODELING" Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 7:42 PM Subject: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 > Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is > temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 From: don Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:47:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.41.111.232] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:47:58 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gnome PDF viewer in Linux opens the TKM PDF file too. Don Murphy On Sat, 2004-10-02 at 21:29, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? > > Right click and "save as" > > Then open in acrobat reader directly. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 From: don Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:47:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.41.111.232] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:47:58 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gnome PDF viewer in Linux opens the TKM PDF file too. Don Murphy On Sat, 2004-10-02 at 21:29, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? > > Right click and "save as" > > Then open in acrobat reader directly. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to all for help opening this. Another great issue. I am studying the issue more to find info on modeling the Equipco brake levers for the G30. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to all for help opening this. Another great issue. I am studying the issue more to find info on modeling the Equipco brake levers for the G30. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6b in alternate universes? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b in alternate universes? In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b in alternate universes? In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > Rick, > > This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website > that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative > source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N > scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > Tom Riggs Tom, Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched my "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the URL for that website... At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources available, on or off the magic wire... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:27:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > Rick, > > This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website > that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative > source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N > scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > Tom Riggs Tom, Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched my "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the URL for that website... At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources available, on or off the magic wire... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry Britton Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry Britton Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:49:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] How Was RailFest? From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <95675922-1614-11D9-BDC0-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone on the list go? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 13:37:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Jerry and the List: Being based at the museum for most of the weekend as a speaker, I did not get out to the Horseshoe Curve venue, where a horn and whistle group was set up, but can report on the in-town doings and Tyrone excursions. The centerpiece of the event at the museum was the PRR E8s that Bennett and Eric Levin had brought to display in the museum yard, along with the Warrior Ridge and PRR 120. Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks Narrows (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). On both days, a steady line of visitors formed to tour the cab of the 5711, and the horn was blown quite liberally. Ken Briers' 1950 Ford F-1 pickup painted for PRR MoW service was on display in the museum yard on Saturday. Artist Peter Lerro, a veteran of many PRRT&HS conventions and Pennsy Days events, was set up at a display inside the museum both days. Shuttle buses circulated continuously between the museum and HSC. The train show in the adjacent mall was many orders of magnitude larger than I remember it being in the past, with many dealers, plus two very large modular model-railroad layouts, one in HO scale and one in N scale, being set up in vacant storefronts. Weather was cloudy-bright overcast on Saturday, with rain holding off until 5:30 pm (closing time was 6); and a gorgeous, clear sunny autumn day on Sunday. This was the first time Railfest was held at three sites (HSC, museum, Tyrone excursions) adn one result was that the crowd tended to be spread out and did not have the feeling of being as large as in the past, but the museum's gift-shop sales were actually close to what they had been last year. Another reason that it did not feel crowded this year compared to previous years was that when the Altoona-based HSC excursions were operated, most ticketholders arrived at the museum beforehand, creating a temporary surge before proceeding to the nearby train station. With the absence of shop tours and HSC excursions, NS had no presence at the event, which is to my knowledge the first time that either Conrail or NS has not participated in Railfest. The Nittany & Bald Eagle RR excursions from Tyrone to Port Matilda ran flawlessly. Consist was North Shore GP38 2004 (ex-CR) painted in EL colors with commemorative 20-year NSHR anniversary markings on the east end, then former CR technical car 20 (ex-Pullman 10-6 sleeper Chicopee Falls, built for use on NYC, later owned by, I believe, in succession Alco and EMD; current configuration is lounge/HEP power car), now painted for PRR and named Spirit of Sunbury; ex-CR baggage car 23 (ex-NYC heavyweight, now painted for PRR); three ex-EL MU commuter coaches (now painted for PRR); PRR N8 478044; and NSHR GP8 1602. Trips ran multiple times each day, and many trips were sold out. Car hosts were members of the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS. The museum set up a sales area and a ticket sales point adjacent to the Tyrone boarding area (this was across the street from the Amtrak boarding platform). The Tyrone Area Historical Society and others from Tyrone served as very accommodating hosts; other vendors/exhibitors, including an antique car display, were set up in the area. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > Anyone on the list go? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 13:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:37 PM, Dan Cupper wrote: > Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 > Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks Narrows > (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). What level of restoration are these cars in? Thanks for the report, Dan! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:35:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a searchable data base for cabins on the site. Fred NE Chapter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > >> Rick, >> >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old >> N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:35:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a searchable data base for cabins on the site. Fred NE Chapter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > >> Rick, >> >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old >> N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:53:34 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? -- FoM cars and a correction Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton wrote: > On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:37 PM, Dan Cupper wrote: > >> Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 >> Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks >> Narrows (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). > > > What level of restoration are these cars in? > Greetings to Jerry and the List: Pretty much the way they were in Philipsburg -- interiors are partly restored (the part that is restored is very nice) but with lighting that works, and the exteriors are unrestored. Also, a note on my previous post -- I erred in labeling the excursion-assigned GP8 1602 as NSHR, it is NBER. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:13:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred in Vt." To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > Guys, > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > Fred > NE Chapter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > >> Rick, > >> > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > >> website > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > >> authoritative > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old > >> N > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > >> > >> Tom Riggs > > > > Tom, > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > > my > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > > URL > > for that website... > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:13:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred in Vt." To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > Guys, > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > Fred > NE Chapter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > >> Rick, > >> > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > >> website > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > >> authoritative > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old > >> N > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > >> > >> Tom Riggs > > > > Tom, > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > > my > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > > URL > > for that website... > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:15:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Wait one--I meant cupolas are yellow. The cabin roofs are black. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: "Fred in Vt." ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > All, > > I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car > assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the > reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms > that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh > Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass > N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. > I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted > Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. > Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, > despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I > should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The > roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from > what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. > What are your thoughts? > > Tom Riggs > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred in Vt." > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > Guys, > > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > > Fred > > NE Chapter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: ; ; > > ; ; > > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > > > >> Rick, > > >> > > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > > >> website > > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > > >> authoritative > > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black > and > > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my > 15-year-old > > >> N > > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > >> > > >> Tom Riggs > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched > > > my > > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the > > > URL > > > for that website... > > > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:17:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Southcentral Pennsylvania Layout Tour From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9136B7CB-16C8-11D9-9E31-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Early announcement... The Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR), a co-op of layout owners in southcentral Pennsylvania, is pleased to announce its "First Annual SVMR Layout Tour", November 12-14, 2004. No fewer than 8 layouts will be open over three days in the greater Harrisburg - York - Lancaster area. The public is invited to attend these open houses during Model Railroading Month and there is no admission charge to any of the venues. The tour guide may be viewed at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/200411_svmr.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin car travels Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:04:02 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As long as the subject of cabin cars has been prominant lately I have a couple of questions. How frequently did cabin cars leave the region for which they were marked? Would you see one or more marked Eastern Region in Chicago or Lines West and vice versa? Can I use this as a way to indicate where a train originated or is headed while travelling through Philly? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:33:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, or other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is the following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green "Ruberoid" or Red "Paroid" roofing. Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:33:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, or other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is the following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green "Ruberoid" or Red "Paroid" roofing. Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:41:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Structure Colors From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <10508923-16E5-11D9-9A02-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For the 1950's, what would be the correct drift card color names for structure exterior walls and doors? I have a bunch of drift cards, but I am unsure of what era they apply to. If anyone has a source for this information and would care to summarize, I'll add it to Keystone Crossings. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:27:45 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, Thanks--that is what I was thinking--they are right for the early 1960s. Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956? I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not. It will be easy enough to replace the larger SKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) > Tom Riggs wrote: > "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" > > Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: > http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg > > The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. > > From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany. jpg&fr= > > It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:27:45 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, Thanks--that is what I was thinking--they are right for the early 1960s. Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956? I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not. It will be easy enough to replace the larger SKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) > Tom Riggs wrote: > "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" > > Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: > http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg > > The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. > > From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany. jpg&fr= > > It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:50:16 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Tom Riggs wrote: "Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956?" Cupola color depends on the assignment of that particular cabin. Remember, the yellow (or gray) cupolas were assigned to cabins in pool service. Cabins assigned within a particular divsion would have black roofs and cupolas. See "PRR Cabin Painting Lettering.pdf" at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/files/ for more specific information. "I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not." This cabin is Freight Car Color (NOT Tuscan) with black roof and cupolas. Late FCC is a redder shade than that used during the 1920s-1940s. "It will be easy enough to replace the larger PKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too." Don't forget the car numerals. The PK car numerals are much larger than those in the SK scheme. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:50: