From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy handrails are distinctive X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:38:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > types used here. Hi Earl, Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted to last into this era. 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle the > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot under their outside sheathing. 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding and scrapping in the '30s. 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures and parts to save money. 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue to operate with the cupola they preferred. > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > Earl Myers > Canton District in HO, 1944 > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. After all, this was glorious steam! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy handrails are distinctive In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy handrails are distinctive In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:38:03 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > types used here. Hi Earl, Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted to last into this era. 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle the > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot under their outside sheathing. 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding and scrapping in the '30s. 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures and parts to save money. 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue to operate with the cupola they preferred. > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > Earl Myers > Canton District in HO, 1944 > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. After all, this was glorious steam! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Bay-Window Brick Interlocking Tower Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:46:59 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Mount Vernon Shops is pleased to announce that for the=20 first time in HO a standard 8-20 Machione Bay-Window Brick=20 Interlocking tower is being Produced based on blueprints,=20 photographs and actual measurement of the existing tower=20 style.=20 This kit features a flemish-bond brickwork pattern=20 unavilible anywhere else in HO scale. Also included are an=20 optional foundation for hillside placement. The kit is=20 made of laser cut and engraved acrylic and its assembly is=20 like that of a plastic building while, having the detail=20 of a resin kit. A first-run of 100 is planned so order yours today. For more information please visit www.mountvernonshops.com=20 O & N scalers, this tower will sonn be availible in your=20 scale too. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:53:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Mr. Rick and others: If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's? as early as the 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at least one from the era just after the facility opened...) My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in everything else because of light track and light finances. Just as Crestline was a dead-end for big power, Delmarva was the last refuge for little power (last steam Class D, old sharks, old Baldwin switchers, etc.) Jim McDaniel, who prefers the look of the N6 to the N5 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:53:03 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mr. Rick and others: If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's? as early as the 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at least one from the era just after the facility opened...) My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in everything else because of light track and light finances. Just as Crestline was a dead-end for big power, Delmarva was the last refuge for little power (last steam Class D, old sharks, old Baldwin switchers, etc.) Jim McDaniel, who prefers the look of the N6 to the N5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:58:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... On Oct 1, 2004, at 6:53 AM, James L. McDaniel wrote: > Mr. Rick and others: > > If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did > Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's?=A0 as early as the > 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at > least one from the era just after the facility opened...) > > My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in=20 > everything > else because of light track and light finances.=A0 Jim, Wasn't Delmarva the home of most of the NDA conversions too (ND stuck=20 on trucks)? As for bobbers, a fair number were still around at least=20 through the end of WWII in revenue service. Post war shots include the=20 Octoraro branch as well as other locations... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->=20 Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 =20 Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ =20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:58:56 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 1, 2004, at 6:53 AM, James L. McDaniel wrote: > Mr. Rick and others: > > If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did > Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's?=A0 as early as = the > 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at > least one from the era just after the facility opened...) > > My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in=20 > everything > else because of light track and light finances.=A0 Jim, Wasn't Delmarva the home of most of the NDA conversions too (ND stuck=20 on trucks)? As for bobbers, a fair number were still around at least=20 through the end of WWII in revenue service. Post war shots include the=20= Octoraro branch as well as other locations... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:06:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:38 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was > to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center > cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars > were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, > though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. > Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, > the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and > once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car > structures > and parts to save money. I believe that there is a photo of an N6b with a built date around 1942 in either Color Guide 1 or 2... Multiple explanations exist including new construction on a stored underframe, a newly rebuilt ND, and a dyslexic painter SInce WWII was a period of intense cabin car shortage, I favor the first explanation. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:06:31 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:38 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was > to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center > cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars > were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, > though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. > Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, > the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and > once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car > structures > and parts to save money. I believe that there is a photo of an N6b with a built date around 1942 in either Color Guide 1 or 2... Multiple explanations exist including new construction on a stored underframe, a newly rebuilt ND, and a dyslexic painter SInce WWII was a period of intense cabin car shortage, I favor the first explanation. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS meeting Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:12:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Chicago Chapter will be having our next regularly scheduled meeting on Saturday October 23 in the Pullman Visitor Center at 2:00PM. John Sheets will be presenting a program on the Mt. Carmel ore run. Anyone who will be in the area is welcome to attend. If you need further information please feel free to contact me off list. Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:14:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... I plead ignorance on the NDa question...Jim McD ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:14:20 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I plead ignorance on the NDa question...Jim McD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Keystones to trade? Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:30:53 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.1.2 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, I have dupes of some Keystones. Does any one have any to trade? There aren't too many issues I need but figured it's worth a try. I have dupes of Vol 12 #3 (Sept 1979), Vol 13 #1 (March 1980), Vol 16 #3 (Sept 1983) Volumes I need are Vol 10 (1977) #1,2,3,4 -- Vol 11 (1978) #1,2,3,4 -- Vol 13 (1980) #3,4 -- Vol 15 (1982) #1,2 or Vol 16 (1983) # 2 Or if you don't have any to trade but are selling any of the issues I need, I'm open to purchasing them... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 06:12:49 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > > > Rick; > > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > > types used here. > > Hi Earl, > > Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list > (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: > 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by > retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and > N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be > lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). > 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted > to last into this era. > 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as > long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). > > The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle > the > > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. > > 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden > 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on > this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted > ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and > distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big > car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was > moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were > moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different > locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot > under their outside sheathing. > > 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort > Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" > cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with > this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and > it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. > > 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between > Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering > upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on > this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were > vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same > Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. > > 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module > -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be > refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was > taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a > hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding > and scrapping in the '30s. > > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures > and parts to save money. > > 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time > that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has > demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so > much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do > this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I > also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue > to operate with the cupola they preferred. > > > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > > Earl Myers > > Canton District in HO, 1944 > > > > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, > and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic > suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I > was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't > believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. > After all, this was glorious steam! > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] Rail fest activity list .... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:22:56 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List , I am looking for a schedule or list of events at Railfest this weekend = ...but i can't seem to find any complete info. Does anyone have a good = address for info....... Thanks , Mike Hmel =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:11:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jamie Bothwell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [151.197.192.173] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:11:32 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 1, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Incidently, all the N6a's were rebuilt into N6b's in > the early 1940's. Bill and All, I have a copy of a 1957 cabin car assignment sheet that lists N6a 980229 still assigned to the Northwestern Region. The specific assignment is listed as "Chicago". Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:51:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Well,what can I say? Long time ago I (thought) I > learned never to say never, always, and other > all-inclusive statements when refering to the PRR. > > Anyone out there know if the 980229 really was a N6a? > Or was it a typo on the assignment sheet? No, probably not a typo. We've discussed this car on PRR-talk before, and it appears to have been a real survivor... but the only one of the N6A class. Photos are rare to non-existent however, and it definitely represents an "oddball". BTW, for those who find themselves with too many Quality/Gloor Craft N6A cabin kits , you can always use the parts to build either ND bobbers, or NDA cabins, both of which outlasted the N6A by a number of years... Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:59:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Any word on when this engine will hit the shelves? Right now they are listed as Winter 04, but on a German site they are listed as Sping 2005. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:26:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I sold my half -completed Quality/Gloor Craft N6A kit when I picked up a brass for a good price. Though my mainline running is at at a club, I rationalize that,since I model the roster of the Chicago Division, I can own one N6A in 1950+/- :-). If you guys had said that roster item was a misprint, you would have ruined my weekend :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > BTW, for those who find themselves with too many Quality/Gloor Craft N6A > cabin kits , you can always use the parts to build either ND bobbers, > or NDA cabins, both of which outlasted the N6A by a number of years... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:21:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-MODELING" Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 7:42 PM Subject: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 > Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is > temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 From: don Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:47:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.41.111.232] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:47:58 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gnome PDF viewer in Linux opens the TKM PDF file too. Don Murphy On Sat, 2004-10-02 at 21:29, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? > > Right click and "save as" > > Then open in acrobat reader directly. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 From: don Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:47:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.41.111.232] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:47:58 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gnome PDF viewer in Linux opens the TKM PDF file too. Don Murphy On Sat, 2004-10-02 at 21:29, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? > > Right click and "save as" > > Then open in acrobat reader directly. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to all for help opening this. Another great issue. I am studying the issue more to find info on modeling the Equipco brake levers for the G30. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:00:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to all for help opening this. Another great issue. I am studying the issue more to find info on modeling the Equipco brake levers for the G30. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6b in alternate universes? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b in alternate universes? In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b in alternate universes? In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > Rick, > > This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website > that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative > source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N > scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > Tom Riggs Tom, Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched my "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the URL for that website... At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources available, on or off the magic wire... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:27:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > Rick, > > This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website > that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative > source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N > scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > Tom Riggs Tom, Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched my "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the URL for that website... At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources available, on or off the magic wire... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry Britton Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry Britton Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:49:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] How Was RailFest? From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <95675922-1614-11D9-BDC0-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone on the list go? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 13:37:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Jerry and the List: Being based at the museum for most of the weekend as a speaker, I did not get out to the Horseshoe Curve venue, where a horn and whistle group was set up, but can report on the in-town doings and Tyrone excursions. The centerpiece of the event at the museum was the PRR E8s that Bennett and Eric Levin had brought to display in the museum yard, along with the Warrior Ridge and PRR 120. Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks Narrows (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). On both days, a steady line of visitors formed to tour the cab of the 5711, and the horn was blown quite liberally. Ken Briers' 1950 Ford F-1 pickup painted for PRR MoW service was on display in the museum yard on Saturday. Artist Peter Lerro, a veteran of many PRRT&HS conventions and Pennsy Days events, was set up at a display inside the museum both days. Shuttle buses circulated continuously between the museum and HSC. The train show in the adjacent mall was many orders of magnitude larger than I remember it being in the past, with many dealers, plus two very large modular model-railroad layouts, one in HO scale and one in N scale, being set up in vacant storefronts. Weather was cloudy-bright overcast on Saturday, with rain holding off until 5:30 pm (closing time was 6); and a gorgeous, clear sunny autumn day on Sunday. This was the first time Railfest was held at three sites (HSC, museum, Tyrone excursions) adn one result was that the crowd tended to be spread out and did not have the feeling of being as large as in the past, but the museum's gift-shop sales were actually close to what they had been last year. Another reason that it did not feel crowded this year compared to previous years was that when the Altoona-based HSC excursions were operated, most ticketholders arrived at the museum beforehand, creating a temporary surge before proceeding to the nearby train station. With the absence of shop tours and HSC excursions, NS had no presence at the event, which is to my knowledge the first time that either Conrail or NS has not participated in Railfest. The Nittany & Bald Eagle RR excursions from Tyrone to Port Matilda ran flawlessly. Consist was North Shore GP38 2004 (ex-CR) painted in EL colors with commemorative 20-year NSHR anniversary markings on the east end, then former CR technical car 20 (ex-Pullman 10-6 sleeper Chicopee Falls, built for use on NYC, later owned by, I believe, in succession Alco and EMD; current configuration is lounge/HEP power car), now painted for PRR and named Spirit of Sunbury; ex-CR baggage car 23 (ex-NYC heavyweight, now painted for PRR); three ex-EL MU commuter coaches (now painted for PRR); PRR N8 478044; and NSHR GP8 1602. Trips ran multiple times each day, and many trips were sold out. Car hosts were members of the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS. The museum set up a sales area and a ticket sales point adjacent to the Tyrone boarding area (this was across the street from the Amtrak boarding platform). The Tyrone Area Historical Society and others from Tyrone served as very accommodating hosts; other vendors/exhibitors, including an antique car display, were set up in the area. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > Anyone on the list go? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 13:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:37 PM, Dan Cupper wrote: > Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 > Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks Narrows > (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). What level of restoration are these cars in? Thanks for the report, Dan! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:35:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a searchable data base for cabins on the site. Fred NE Chapter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > >> Rick, >> >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old >> N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 17:35:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a searchable data base for cabins on the site. Fred NE Chapter ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > >> Rick, >> >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old >> N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:53:34 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? -- FoM cars and a correction Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton wrote: > On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:37 PM, Dan Cupper wrote: > >> Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 >> Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks >> Narrows (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). > > > What level of restoration are these cars in? > Greetings to Jerry and the List: Pretty much the way they were in Philipsburg -- interiors are partly restored (the part that is restored is very nice) but with lighting that works, and the exteriors are unrestored. Also, a note on my previous post -- I erred in labeling the excursion-assigned GP8 1602 as NSHR, it is NBER. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:13:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred in Vt." To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > Guys, > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > Fred > NE Chapter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > >> Rick, > >> > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > >> website > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > >> authoritative > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old > >> N > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > >> > >> Tom Riggs > > > > Tom, > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > > my > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > > URL > > for that website... > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:13:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred in Vt." To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > Guys, > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > Fred > NE Chapter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > >> Rick, > >> > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > >> website > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > >> authoritative > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old > >> N > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > >> > >> Tom Riggs > > > > Tom, > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched > > my > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the > > URL > > for that website... > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:15:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Wait one--I meant cupolas are yellow. The cabin roofs are black. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: "Fred in Vt." ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > All, > > I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car > assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the > reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms > that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh > Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass > N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. > I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted > Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. > Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, > despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I > should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The > roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from > what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. > What are your thoughts? > > Tom Riggs > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred in Vt." > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > Guys, > > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > > Fred > > NE Chapter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: ; ; > > ; ; > > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > > > >> Rick, > > >> > > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > > >> website > > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > > >> authoritative > > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black > and > > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my > 15-year-old > > >> N > > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > >> > > >> Tom Riggs > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched > > > my > > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the > > > URL > > > for that website... > > > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:17:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Southcentral Pennsylvania Layout Tour From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9136B7CB-16C8-11D9-9E31-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Early announcement... The Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR), a co-op of layout owners in southcentral Pennsylvania, is pleased to announce its "First Annual SVMR Layout Tour", November 12-14, 2004. No fewer than 8 layouts will be open over three days in the greater Harrisburg - York - Lancaster area. The public is invited to attend these open houses during Model Railroading Month and there is no admission charge to any of the venues. The tour guide may be viewed at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/200411_svmr.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin car travels Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:04:02 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As long as the subject of cabin cars has been prominant lately I have a couple of questions. How frequently did cabin cars leave the region for which they were marked? Would you see one or more marked Eastern Region in Chicago or Lines West and vice versa? Can I use this as a way to indicate where a train originated or is headed while travelling through Philly? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:33:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, or other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is the following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green "Ruberoid" or Red "Paroid" roofing. Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:33:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, or other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is the following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green "Ruberoid" or Red "Paroid" roofing. Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:41:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Structure Colors From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <10508923-16E5-11D9-9A02-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For the 1950's, what would be the correct drift card color names for structure exterior walls and doors? I have a bunch of drift cards, but I am unsure of what era they apply to. If anyone has a source for this information and would care to summarize, I'll add it to Keystone Crossings. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:27:45 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, Thanks--that is what I was thinking--they are right for the early 1960s. Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956? I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not. It will be easy enough to replace the larger SKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) > Tom Riggs wrote: > "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" > > Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: > http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg > > The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. > > From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany. jpg&fr= > > It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:27:45 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, Thanks--that is what I was thinking--they are right for the early 1960s. Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956? I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not. It will be easy enough to replace the larger SKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 9:27 AM Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) > Tom Riggs wrote: > "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" > > Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: > http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg > > The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. > > From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: > http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany. jpg&fr= > > It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:50:16 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Tom Riggs wrote: "Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956?" Cupola color depends on the assignment of that particular cabin. Remember, the yellow (or gray) cupolas were assigned to cabins in pool service. Cabins assigned within a particular divsion would have black roofs and cupolas. See "PRR Cabin Painting Lettering.pdf" at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/files/ for more specific information. "I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not." This cabin is Freight Car Color (NOT Tuscan) with black roof and cupolas. Late FCC is a redder shade than that used during the 1920s-1940s. "It will be easy enough to replace the larger PKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too." Don't forget the car numerals. The PK car numerals are much larger than those in the SK scheme. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:50:16 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom Riggs wrote: "Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956?" Cupola color depends on the assignment of that particular cabin. Remember, the yellow (or gray) cupolas were assigned to cabins in pool service. Cabins assigned within a particular divsion would have black roofs and cupolas. See "PRR Cabin Painting Lettering.pdf" at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/files/ for more specific information. "I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not." This cabin is Freight Car Color (NOT Tuscan) with black roof and cupolas. Late FCC is a redder shade than that used during the 1920s-1940s. "It will be easy enough to replace the larger PKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too." Don't forget the car numerals. The PK car numerals are much larger than those in the SK scheme. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] BLI Offerings Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] BLI Offerings From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:49:12 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , TCJ Riggs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 5, 2004, at 11:27 AM, TCJ Riggs wrote: > Ben, > > Thanks--that is what I was thinking--they are right for the early > 1960s. > Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of > designs--for > the Pittsburgh area circa 1956? I can't tell from the N5 picture > whether it > is Tuscan with black roof or not. Tom, Just a quick note - I noticed this in an earlier post as well. Tuscan is not the correct color to be using on PRR cabins. The cabins were painted the same color as the rest of the freight car fleet, "Freight Car Color" or FCC to SPFs . Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:49:12 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , TCJ Riggs X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 5, 2004, at 11:27 AM, TCJ Riggs wrote: > Ben, > > Thanks--that is what I was thinking--they are right for the early > 1960s. > Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of > designs--for > the Pittsburgh area circa 1956? I can't tell from the N5 picture > whether it > is Tuscan with black roof or not. Tom, Just a quick note - I noticed this in an earlier post as well. Tuscan is not the correct color to be using on PRR cabins. The cabins were painted the same color as the rest of the freight car fleet, "Freight Car Color" or FCC to SPFs . Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:15:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR diesels. = After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has sparked my = interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most accurate model = in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one that I might have to = add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 plus for one that is = exact I would probably go for the less expensive one and do my own = details. I thought this was discussed some time ago but I am lazy and = hate looking through the archives... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:15:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR diesels. = After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has sparked my = interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most accurate model = in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one that I might have to = add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 plus for one that is = exact I would probably go for the less expensive one and do my own = details. I thought this was discussed some time ago but I am lazy and = hate looking through the archives... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Website status? Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:38:19 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al and company, Just wondering what progress has been made to restoring the PRRT&HS = website? I had bookmarked the TKM issues there. I am on a 56 k modem and = it takes 40 forevers to download PDF's, so am anxiously awaiting the = October issue. Gregg Mahlkov PRRT&HS #7418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:16:25 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam wrtes... Group, I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR diesels. After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has sparked my interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most accurate model in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one that I might have to add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 plus for one that is exact I would probably go for the less expensive one and do my own details. I thought this was discussed some time ago but I am lazy and hate looking through the archives... Sam V< Sam, It is not just a matter of cost IMHO. How much work are you willing to commit to and what are your expextations of the finished product. Here are some options starting with cost as a basis.... Athearn/Globe(F-7)... for years the industry standard. The problem is the roof it too flat and winows are too wide open but with lots of work you can get a fairly nice F-7 but the lowest end product on the food chain. Some of the unique products made for this model are the winow fillers by AMB and the number boards by Details West. Bachmann (F7)... Somewhat accuarate. Good for only for late model F7's but the windshield area is in need of help. Interestingly enough the drive on these units rated just slightly lower than the Stweart drives in RMJ at one point. Life Like (P1K F3) Very accurate... But the PRR units need dynamic brakes and this unit has none. But you can get HIGHLINER dynamic brake inserts as a separate part... But only available as an F3 phase 2 early. Stewart (F3 to F7) Fairly accuarate... based on what folks say regarding the windshield area. For years it displaced the other offering but has fallen from favor of late but the drive is revered. NOTE*** All of the above need new pilots and standard PRR stand alone items like lifting lugs and antenna mast. Intermountain (F3 & F7's) very very accuarate. Good for single phases of F Units as represented. The F3 needs corrected 4-digit number boards standard to the PRR. Good choice. But this might go beyond your price point. Athearn/Genesis (F3 or F7) Extremely accurate... This is at the top of the food chain all you need is the PRR specific items. Perhaps beyond your price point. Highliner...(all phases of F-units) The one unit that all asspire to. The shell that is used on the Athhearn/Genesis units. The issue is that decal for these units are not yet made, accrately. The EMD stripes were 2-inches wide while the Champ are the correct color they as well as Microscale are too wide (3-inches) and too yellow. So making a good PRR unit from these is not yet attainable. And you have to add your own powerframe. So this might be beyond your price point. Choose your poisen Sam. Personally I have some of each and most will end up in PRR paint include my A-B-A set of Athearn/Globe. I own them all and plan to run them all. I am willing to do what it takes to make them as correct as possible. Plus I just enjoy the process... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com BLI now has pictures of their upcoming K4 on their website. Can someone offer an informed decision on how this compares to the real K4. I looks really good to me. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com BLI now has pictures of their upcoming K4 on their website. Can someone offer an informed decision on how this compares to the real K4. I looks really good to me. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:14:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRRPro group is preparing their next modeling effort... the P70 series, including variants such as the P70k and the P70gs. The P70gs was done two ways... with typical small windows or with larger picture windows. I know of no reference that relates the window size against the actual car numbers (roster) other than individual unit photos. Anyone know differently? A while back on the PRR-talk list -- perhaps years -- it was suggested that the P70gs with small windows was likely used in commuter service or day trips, while the picture window versions would likely have been used in overnight service. Any more opinions on this? I need four P70gs cars for assignment as follows, and I'd appreciate feedback on which version they likely would have been: The Juniata (2 cars - Pittsburgh to New York) The Duquesne (Buffalo to New York, via 570 at Harrisburg) The Indianapolis Limited (New York to Harrisburg - removed from consist) The defunct East Wind Manufacturing offered both window versions as kits in N scale, so both are available for this project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:36:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, I don't believe that P70GS's of any type were intended for overnight service. They did not have the leg room. That's what P70K's were for. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:15 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Cc: prrPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRRPro] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments The PRRPro group is preparing their next modeling effort... the P70 series, including variants such as the P70k and the P70gs. The P70gs was done two ways... with typical small windows or with larger picture windows. I know of no reference that relates the window size against the actual car numbers (roster) other than individual unit photos. Anyone know differently? A while back on the PRR-talk list -- perhaps years -- it was suggested that the P70gs with small windows was likely used in commuter service or day trips, while the picture window versions would likely have been used in overnight service. Any more opinions on this? I need four P70gs cars for assignment as follows, and I'd appreciate feedback on which version they likely would have been: The Juniata (2 cars - Pittsburgh to New York) The Duquesne (Buffalo to New York, via 570 at Harrisburg) The Indianapolis Limited (New York to Harrisburg - removed from consist) The defunct East Wind Manufacturing offered both window versions as kits in N scale, so both are available for this project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:46:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > I don't believe that P70GS's of any type were intended for overnight > service. They did not have the leg room. That's what P70K's were for. Good point, Andy. I was focusing on the exterior window arrangement and not taking into account the seating differences -- the P70k being a 56-seater and the P70gs being a 68-seater. So, still need to know if there was a rhyme or reason as to the small vs. large windows and their respective assignments. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 11:40:06 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'll be interested to see that if BLI comes to Timonium,=20 they'll have the models with them. If they do i'll take=20 pictures and post them. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: BLI now has pictures of their upcoming K4 on their=20 website. Can someone offer an informed decision on how=20 this compares to the real K4. I looks really good to me.=20 Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:27:45 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:27:25 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8336@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments thread-index: AcSrppbi7PzOXHtLQmeAOFlz5YHG0wANad7g From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Jerry Britton" , "PRR-Talk LIST" Cc: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For what its worth they (PRR) had what they called "Scheme 5s and Scheme 6s" The "s" stood for "skirts" but I don't remember what the other differences were. They were hard riding s.o.b.s but they had reclining seats, a welcome relief from the otherwise smooth riding FBR cars. The g's gs's and k's were always used from Buffalo to Baltimore and the track from Harrisburg to Baltimore was nothing short of attrocius. A ride at high speed in a P70 was nerve wracking to say the least. Bill Volkmer Frequent weekend traveller in those days -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:15 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Cc: prrPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments The PRRPro group is preparing their next modeling effort... the P70=20 series, including variants such as the P70k and the P70gs. The P70gs was done two ways... with typical small windows or with=20 larger picture windows. I know of no reference that relates the window=20 size against the actual car numbers (roster) other than individual unit=20 photos. Anyone know differently? A while back on the PRR-talk list -- perhaps years -- it was suggested=20 that the P70gs with small windows was likely used in commuter service=20 or day trips, while the picture window versions would likely have been=20 used in overnight service. Any more opinions on this? I need four P70gs cars for assignment as follows, and I'd appreciate=20 feedback on which version they likely would have been: The Juniata (2 cars - Pittsburgh to New York) The Duquesne (Buffalo to New York, via 570 at Harrisburg) The Indianapolis Limited (New York to Harrisburg - removed from=20 consist) The defunct East Wind Manufacturing offered both window versions as=20 kits in N scale, so both are available for this project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:39:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > For what its worth they (PRR) had what they called "Scheme 5s and > Scheme > 6s" The "s" stood for "skirts" but I don't remember what the other > differences were. I was aware of the "schemes" and need various schemes for P70's (no suffix) and PB70's. I don't think I've seen them in reference to P70gs's, which did have skirts at one time. (East Wind offered the car with or without skirts, with large or small windows.) I had not previously seen the "s" suffix to indicate skirts. My original PRR documents are from 1954 and by them most skirting had been removed, so maybe the "s" suffix had been dropped by then -- as had the "r" suffix to denote air conditioning. > They were hard riding s.o.b.s but they had reclining > seats, a welcome relief from the otherwise smooth riding FBR cars. While they were on the roster, the 1954 Makeup of Trains doesn't show any P70fbr's in service on the routes through Harrisburg. Doesn't mean I can't sub one in now and then! (Wheels of Time plans to produce the P70fbr in N scale.) > > The g's gs's and k's were always used from Buffalo to Baltimore.. I figured as much, with a few exceptions for 1954... Train 531 carried a P85b north to Harrisburg which it transferred to Train 21, The Indianapolis Ltd. Train 59, The Liberty Ltd., carried two P85b's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:48:02 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) F3 & F7 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom, Thanks for the comments. It would take a lot of detailed information for each offering. The point is that they are all good offerings depending on how much time and effort you are willing to apply and then your intended results. The Athearn/Globe is the most overlooked but when I did my A_B_A set years ago (now in AL Stump Sr.'s collection) there were no window inserts offered and I had to make my own jigs so they would all come out the same and once corrected they are still something to be proud of... Don't discount any of the options as you model to your standards not mine... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:04:23 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8337@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments thread-index: AcSr3Oq8W9MBXH/iQe6JUT4B6w9ssgABG1Nw From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You are correct. In the 1958-62 time period the FBRs were strictly on the corridor. I seem to remember P85s going north from Baltimore on 575 and being put on 49 at Harrisburg to Chicago. There were lots of P70 recliners operating in east west service but mostly on the Red Arrow, and St. Louis/Cinncinnati service. Also Chicago-Louisville. I seem to remember the Clevelander having P85s. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 3:40 PM To: Bill Volkmer Cc: PRR-Talk LIST; prrPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > For what its worth they (PRR) had what they called "Scheme 5s and > Scheme > 6s" The "s" stood for "skirts" but I don't remember what the other > differences were. I was aware of the "schemes" and need various schemes for P70's (no=20 suffix) and PB70's. I don't think I've seen them in reference to=20 P70gs's, which did have skirts at one time. (East Wind offered the car=20 with or without skirts, with large or small windows.) I had not previously seen the "s" suffix to indicate skirts. My=20 original PRR documents are from 1954 and by them most skirting had been=20 removed, so maybe the "s" suffix had been dropped by then -- as had the=20 "r" suffix to denote air conditioning. > They were hard riding s.o.b.s but they had reclining > seats, a welcome relief from the otherwise smooth riding FBR cars. While they were on the roster, the 1954 Makeup of Trains doesn't show=20 any P70fbr's in service on the routes through Harrisburg. Doesn't mean=20 I can't sub one in now and then! (Wheels of Time plans to produce the=20 P70fbr in N scale.) > > The g's gs's and k's were always used from Buffalo to Baltimore.. I figured as much, with a few exceptions for 1954... Train 531 carried a P85b north to Harrisburg which it transferred to=20 Train 21, The Indianapolis Ltd. Train 59, The Liberty Ltd., carried two P85b's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <18BBDAFA-17DE-11D9-87AB-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Urgent BLI K4s Ordering Information Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:24:24 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm passing on this info as a public service, as not all BLI dealers may be as quick to act... I received a dealer FAX from BLI today indicating that the K4's are expected in October... contrary to earlier reports that they would be delayed. The fact that photos were posted this week, however, supports the claim that they are very close. In the FAX, BLI makes it clear that there will NOT be overruns on stock. Their exact words are "Due to high manufacturing costs, production will be based on preorders only. Please send all orders in by this Friday, October 8." The advice is, if you want a BLI K4, you should expedite contact with your preferred BLI dealer. (If you don't have an established BLI dealer to service your needs, I would be more than happy to work with you.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:49:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I too will be at the Timonium show this weekend. Also look forward to see what BLI will have on display. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:02:23 -0400 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 6, 2004, at 7:49 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > I too will be at the Timonium show this weekend. Also > look forward to see what BLI will have on display. Odd/interesting that they set a "drop dead" order deadline of one day BEFORE the biggest quarterly show in the mid-Atlantic. Should be right after the show...right? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:41:54 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am repainting the bodies of my brass N scale cabin cars to accurately depict the era that I am modeling--the mid-1950s in the Pittsburgh division. I have several Micro-trains versions of Penny boxcars that show redder colors than Tuscan or "boxcar" red, but they are not the same. Does anyone have a web reference that shows a color sample of FCC paint from the mid-1950s? And thank you to those who have sent pictures and information to assist this project to date. Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:02:12 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR Future Stuff from Walthers in HO Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Coupl'a things ... 1) A friend who is sharing color 35mm slides of passenger equipment with the product development folks at Walthers related that they plan to have a B60b ready by early next Summer, but are only looking for prototype images showing so-called late schemes (with and w/o keystones) and in PC Green. 2) My hobby dealer showed me a new Walthers dealers' survey that among other things included an N6b and asked how many he'd consider ordering in a wide variety of paint and lettering. Thought modelers on this list might be able to set my mind at ease (or issue a hue and cry for earlier schemes), in the first case, and bombard their dealers with advance commitments in the second case. 'best, Vagel keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Alco B units Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 23:17:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm in the process of putting decals on an AF16 B unit. There are = several stencils along the bottom edge of the car body. The only one I = can make out in photos is for the fuel filler.=20 Can anyone tell me what other information was stenciled on the edge of = the car body? I'm assuming there may have been something that said = "Water" or possibly "Engine Oil Drain", or the region of assignment, = etc. =20 I've found many photos in books that show something is there but its = impossible to make out exactly what it is. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] Timonium Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 06:35:32 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, I will not be able to attend this weekend, however those planning to attend and to check out BLI K-4. Would someone check to see if they are being manufactured in Korea or China and then please post on the talk line for others to see? Thanks to all. Charlie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:59:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com P70gsR Coaches..... Firstly...it is a fact that the Trail Blazer was originally equipped = with P70gsR in 1939...the P70kR were not available until early 1940. = Photos of the inaugural run of the Trail Blazer prove these to be narrow = window P70gsR and POC70R. Even into the 1940s...consist reports continue = to show P70gsR substitutions in long-distance coach service. Whether = they were comfortable as long distance coaches, or not....they saw = service. To answer Jerrys question.... P70gsR coaches 4194-4243 were originally built with "picture" windows = and full skirting. Skirting was removed in the late 1940s. P70gsR coaches 4310-4359 were originally built with "narrow" square = windows and full skirting. Again, skirting was being removed by the late = 1940s Brian Butcher ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:18:29 -0500 To: TCJ Riggs , PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 6, 2004, at 7:41 PM, TCJ Riggs wrote: > I am repainting the bodies of my brass N scale cabin cars to accurately > depict the era that I am modeling--the mid-1950s in the Pittsburgh > division. > I have several Micro-trains versions of Penny boxcars that show redder > colors than Tuscan or "boxcar" red, but they are not the same. Does > anyone > have a web reference that shows a color sample of FCC paint from the > mid-1950s? And thank you to those who have sent pictures and > information > to assist this project to date. > > Tom Riggs Tom, I'd be nervous about a "web reference" for any color as it depends on your monitors settings. How about we do one better and make a suggestion for a model paint ? A number of modelers favor Poly Scale (and floquil) Special Oxide Red for post-war FCC. To my eye, this is right on. For pre-war FCC, I mix in Zinc Chromate (1:1), because this adds a little more orange, which seems to have been more pronounced prior to the 1950s. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:43:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Agree, the BLI K4 is a good looking model when compared to the prototype. The other offering from MTH, while having many strong features, suffers from "Tinplate" errors. An example is the unbelievably large hinges on the smoke box cover, which resemble something found on O Tinplate locos. No where could I find a photo a prototype that shows hinges other than that seen on the BLI model. I would certainly like to have both models to do a side-by-side comparison. At the moment, my money is headed for the BLI model. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:02:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted & List, Anal Retentive? Not so. While we all at one time or another become a little too critical of a model's features, the Keystone is a (please excuse the pun) key feature on a model of a Pennsylvania Railroad steam locomotive. After all, that bright red company emblem is one of the earliest attraction on a Pennsy model. Model manufactures would do well to pay close attention to these "key" details. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:07:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Timonium Show Attendees X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please keep an eye out for MTH should they display their HO version of the K4. Would be very interested in first hand accounts of its appearance and performance. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:59:05 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom: Check the latest issue of the Keystone for the Color Drift cards available from the PRRT&HS. FCC post 1953 was one of the cards available. I have no idea if it is still in stock. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:59:05 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom: Check the latest issue of the Keystone for the Color Drift cards available from the PRRT&HS. FCC post 1953 was one of the cards available. I have no idea if it is still in stock. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re:::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:14:07 -0500 To: PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 8:43 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Agree, the BLI K4 is a good looking model when compared to the > prototype. > The other offering from MTH, while having many strong features, > suffers from > "Tinplate" errors. An example is the unbelievably large hinges on the > smoke box > cover, which resemble something found on O Tinplate locos. No where > could I > find a photo a prototype that shows hinges other than that seen on the > BLI > model. I would certainly like to have both models to do a > side-by-side > comparison. At the moment, my money is headed for the BLI model. > > Evan Leisey While it is dangerous to look at pictures of pilot models... I'll agree, although I am also somewhat disappointed in the BLI model. It may have lots of attached details, but if they aren't correct, then it is not a "state of the art model"! Problems with the MTH K4s include the lack of anything vaguely representing the ash pans etc under the cab, the smoke unit and the details Evan noted. Problems with the BLI K4 include the somewhat clunky smokebox markers (and apparently no "prewar" markers for the prewar loco?), the keystone, the AWFUL joint with the stack, the canted running boards in front of the steam delivery pipes (on all 3 models), the safety valves (too big?) and the bell pictured is pretty abysmal (to be honest, it looks like they stuck some other bell on). The builders plate looks nice, but the tender badge still looks pretty clunky. The tender is a 110P75A - did the "A" appear on the badge? There are a LOT of applied details, like the conduit and markers on the back of the tender and the boiler. Most if not all of the exposed piping looks applied and not cast. Of course, they go to all that trouble and then the grabs at the top of the slope sheet are cast on blobs! If the colors are any indication, this one looks "close enough" for me (finally). The BLI K4s looks to be a nice model, but it certainly does not appear to set the standard for HO scale steam. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 11:29:37 -0400 Subject: Re: ::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > While it is dangerous to look at pictures of pilot models... Anyone else note that the "head shot" that they've been using in ads for months has the slatted pilot and bears #1361, yet the #1361 they are selling has a cast pilot! Guess they made the wrong combination when they posed the pilot model for the marketing shot! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: ::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 15:59:05 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A couple of concerns I have: the cast drop coupler pilot doesn't look massive enough and the hole for the drop coupler doesn't look right in the side shot. The handrails on the front side of the smokebox stick straight up in the air instead of continuing the curve of the boiler after the top handrail stanchion. The tender slope sheet appears to have a massive thickness. I can't tell if it simulates an agle iron on the bottom side or it is just oversize. The siderods are treated to cut down the brightness but the pilot truck wheels aren't treated. Why? Norm Bell -------------- Original message from Jerry Britton : -------------- > On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > > > While it is dangerous to look at pictures of pilot models... > > Anyone else note that the "head shot" that they've been using in ads > for months has the slatted pilot and bears #1361, yet the #1361 they > are selling has a cast pilot! > > Guess they made the wrong combination when they posed the pilot model > for the marketing shot! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:44:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <388D82E2-1880-11D9-83D8-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A lot of "passenger car sides" modeler cut down the length of Eastern Car Works (HO) or American Limited (N) core kits to build P70kr or P70gsr coaches. I was taking a peek at the drawings on Rob's site to see what other cars have the similar roof construction -- like that of the lightweight sleepers, with the ends squared off -- rather than the typical heavyweight balloon or clerestory roof. It appears that four diners might possibly be done this way as well: D70asr, D70cr, D70dr, and D70er (coffee shop). Am I correct about these, or not? Are there others? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re:::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:12:59 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403e4a5772ad05672a1a7491cbea7ad5f0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.37 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom--In addition to the paints that Bruce suggested, you might consider also Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red (16-14) and Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car Red (S2081). I don't know where Badger came up with that name--we sure don't need anyone else perpetuating the the idea that PRR freight cars were anything close to tuscan red. If you use the Scalecoat II color, be sure to use Scalecoat II thinner. It isn't acrylic paint, but the stuff sure makes decaling easy. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL > > Tom, > > I'd be nervous about a "web reference" for any color as it depends on > your monitors settings. How about we do one better and make a > suggestion for a model paint ? A number of modelers favor Poly > Scale (and floquil) Special Oxide Red for post-war FCC. To my eye, > this is right on. For pre-war FCC, I mix in Zinc Chromate (1:1), > because this adds a little more orange, which seems to have been more > pronounced prior to the 1950s. > > Regards > Bruce > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:37:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2f321428542759e7432ac95205b39e1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.37 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start of P70 modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, I'll call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type found on P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and the P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and the diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, which were long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded end of the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Surely someone on the list knows the what is correct and can point us to some 50's era photos. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights > A lot of "passenger car sides" modeler cut down the length of Eastern > Car Works (HO) or American Limited (N) core kits to build P70kr or > P70gsr coaches. > > I was taking a peek at the drawings on Rob's site to see what other > cars have the similar roof construction -- like that of the lightweight > sleepers, with the ends squared off -- rather than the typical > heavyweight balloon or clerestory roof. > > It appears that four diners might possibly be done this way as well: > D70asr, D70cr, D70dr, and D70er (coffee shop). Am I correct about > these, or not? > > Are there others? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: Bruce Smith Subject: K4 markers, was [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:36:42 -0500 To: Bill Daniels X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Actually these are correct for the K4s in the > 1940-1947 period, > as well as with the whistle shield > and blowdown muffler mounted on the firebox. The use > of old "claw" markers and class lights were > discontinued for passenger locomotives around 1939, > and the new markers were first used in 1940, which is > pre-war (at least for the U.S.). Bill, Not to pick nits , but in fact the addition of "tombstone" markers to the smokebox occurred starting in June 1942, which would mean that it was "war time" and not "prewar" In addition, if you check Gay Mittner's web site, you can find more photos of K4s with claw foot pilot markers and no smokebox markers than you can with tombstone smokebox markers during the WWII years and a year or so beyond. 1944 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43680.JPG 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43727.JPG 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43775.JPG Here's a photo shot on 4/4/48 of #3735 with a modern front end, cast pilot, pilot beam claw foots and no smokebox markers! http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43735.JPG So, a true "pre war" K4s should either have clawfoot markers on both the smokebox and pilot beam, or post 1939, it should have just pilot beam markers. Thus, I rest my case that the markers are not correct for a "pre war" K4s. Although I can use the offered (undec) locomotive for my 1944 layout since I will letter it with extended lettering, I would like to mix in the other styles that were clearly around throughout the war... and as you point out, the lettering on the BLI model is NOT correct for a model with tombstone markers. For the claim of BLI "To be, without question, the highest quality model railroading product money can buy" to be true, it would mean the inclusion of correct era specific details to me (or even better, the option to allow the modeler to add them...ie no markers on the loco, but all three style smokebox markers, and clawfoot pilot markers included in a little sack of parts..) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:47:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 02:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. That's exactly why I brought it up. I'm doing the "pre-research". > For my purposes here, I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. Reasonable theory, actually. > NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Yup, we need photos of the prototype with the smaller diaphragms. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:11:52 -0500 To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, > I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early diagram with full width diaphragms. Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width diaphragm and a squared end. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <2CBB5ACD-1898-11D9-BC84-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com, PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST , PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:36:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Folks, As some of you have already heard, the PRRPro group's next project will be the P70 series of cars. We will be getting underway officially on October 18th, but some discussions (like available models) have already begun. Please feel free to come by and check the group out at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ The PRRPro group is open to all modelers of all scales. Rather than any one individual providing a step-by-step tutorial on a specific car, the group consists of many modelers who contribute both their questions and answers to the entire group as we each build the project. The P70 project includes any of the P70 series cars built or rebuilt by the PRR and the PB70 (passenger-baggage) and PBM70 (passenger-baggage-mail) series as well. We are anticipating that projects will include the ALCO/ECW P70 kits as well etched and laser cut car sides in both HO and N scale. We look forward to seeing you at PRRPro! BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message %^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <2CBB5ACD-1898-11D9-BC84-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com, PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST , PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:36:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Folks, As some of you have already heard, the PRRPro group's next project will be the P70 series of cars. We will be getting underway officially on October 18th, but some discussions (like available models) have already begun. Please feel free to come by and check the group out at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ The PRRPro group is open to all modelers of all scales. Rather than any one individual providing a step-by-step tutorial on a specific car, the group consists of many modelers who contribute both their questions and answers to the entire group as we each build the project. The P70 project includes any of the P70 series cars built or rebuilt by the PRR and the PB70 (passenger-baggage) and PBM70 (passenger-baggage-mail) series as well. We are anticipating that projects will include the ALCO/ECW P70 kits as well etched and laser cut car sides in both HO and N scale. We look forward to seeing you at PRRPro! BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message %^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:56:05 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, GS, etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a heavyweight end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real streamlined cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for postwar P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that on the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing space inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing goes inside end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a place for the brakeman to ride outside the car. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Bruce: As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color Guide Vol. 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of both the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the case with the Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of compound curvature as is the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed P70FBR. What we have here is simple-curvature transition from the end of the arch roof, in-line with the ends of the car-sides (a straight line across the roof, to the arched car-ends. The nit I have to pick with the NKP roof end is that it has a slight radius on the edge between the roof arch and the end transition panel. The prototype photos show a sharp edge instead. There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same end casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the vestibule end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for the blind ends. The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt up the part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part thickness right. Bob Kessler -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, > I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early diagram with full width diaphragms. Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width diaphragm and a squared end. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:56:05 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, GS, etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a heavyweight end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real streamlined cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for postwar P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that on the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing space inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing goes inside end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a place for the brakeman to ride outside the car. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Bruce: As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color Guide Vol. 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of both the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the case with the Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of compound curvature as is the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed P70FBR. What we have here is simple-curvature transition from the end of the arch roof, in-line with the ends of the car-sides (a straight line across the roof, to the arched car-ends. The nit I have to pick with the NKP roof end is that it has a slight radius on the edge between the roof arch and the end transition panel. The prototype photos show a sharp edge instead. There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same end casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the vestibule end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for the blind ends. The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt up the part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part thickness right. Bob Kessler -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, > I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early diagram with full width diaphragms. Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width diaphragm and a squared end. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:54:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Fwd: NEW PRODUCT: PRR K4 w/ No Sound From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... For clarity sake, "no sound" also mean there is no DCC decoder=20 installed. It is "DCC ready" as in "ready to accept a decoder". It will=20= only run DC out of the box. Begin forwarded message: > From: Broadway Limited Imports > Date: Fri Oct 8, 2004 10:36:03 AM US/Eastern > Subject: NEW PRODUCT: PRR K4 w/ No Sound > > NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT: > > PRR K4s 4-6-2s w/ NO SOUND > > Preorders due October 29.=A0 Subsequent orders cannot be guaranteed.=A0 > > =A0 In response to great consumer demand, Broadway Limited Imports, = LLC=20 > is offering its PRR K4s 4-6-2 without sound! > > The no-sound units will have the exact same body and detail, but will=20= > have no sound system. The no-sound units are DC operable and are =91DCC=20= > Ready=92 > > We expect these units to be ready for delivery toward the end of=20 > October 2004.=A0 We HIGHLY recommend PREORDERING these items as the = cost=20 > of manufacturing is high and the run will be made to order. > > stk# Item Description > > 335 NO SOUND #646 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO > > 336 NO SOUND #1453 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO > > 337 NO SOUND w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, unlettered,=20= > HO > > 338 NO SOUND #5451 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 339 NO SOUND #7279 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 340 NO SOUND w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered,=20= > HO > > 341 NO SOUND #5418 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 342 NO SOUND #1361 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 343 NO SOUND w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered, HO > > MSRP $299 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] From: Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:05:50 -0400 Cc: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST , STEPHEN HOXIE From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 roof ends Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:00:18 -0400 To: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 3:11 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most > importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the > NKP site. I'll cite page numbers later, but there are photos with sufficient detail of the P70gs and P70k in Steigmeyer's "Passenger Consists of 1952" book and Morning Sun's " Color Guide III". The balloon/round roofs have a rounded end that transforms smoothly from end to top. The arch roofs of the P70k and P70gs are indeed rounded slightly at the ends, but the point where they meet the roof is not rounded off. There is actually an edge -- sort of a ridge -- where the two surfaces meet. And the rounding of the end does not seem to "radiate" around the corners. It's hard for me to express what I mean here... but it looks like you could take a squared end 85' core kit with flush end and litterally just round off the top edge of the end. What I can't tell, for sure, is the ends of the cars. Rather than being flat with an extended diaphragm, it almost looks like the end of the car bulges out towards the middle, with a shorter diaphragm. No good direct side views to judge from... yet. I'm now trying to determine if the PDB70 shared this roof or not. I have a set of sides. The drawing on Rob's site shows one end square, presumably due to full width diaphragm and the other end appearing more rounded than the P70k/P70gs. Anyone know? And anyone know of a photo of a PLC70? It had the low arch roof. But I'd like to see a photo. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 19:33:53 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: K4 markers, was [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Bruce, Does the 1946 K4s 3727 lettering on the tender appear to be Futura style? This photo was taken at Orangeville Yards Baltimore, Maryland. Ken Meyer Bruce Smith wrote: > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > >> Actually these are correct for the K4s in the >> 1940-1947 period, >> as well as with the whistle shield >> and blowdown muffler mounted on the firebox. The use >> of old "claw" markers and class lights were >> discontinued for passenger locomotives around 1939, >> and the new markers were first used in 1940, which is >> pre-war (at least for the U.S.). > > > Bill, > > Not to pick nits , but in fact the addition of "tombstone" markers > to the smokebox occurred starting in June 1942, which would mean that > it was "war time" and not "prewar" In addition, if you check > Gay Mittner's web site, you can find more photos of K4s with claw foot > pilot markers and no smokebox markers than you can with tombstone > smokebox markers during the WWII years and a year or so beyond. > > 1944 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43680.JPG > 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43727.JPG > 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43775.JPG > > Here's a photo shot on 4/4/48 of #3735 with a modern front end, cast > pilot, pilot beam claw foots and no smokebox markers! > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43735.JPG > > So, a true "pre war" K4s should either have clawfoot markers on both > the smokebox and pilot beam, or post 1939, it should have just pilot > beam markers. Thus, I rest my case that the markers are not correct > for a "pre war" K4s. Although I can use the offered (undec) > locomotive for my 1944 layout since I will letter it with extended > lettering, I would like to mix in the other styles that were clearly > around throughout the war... and as you point out, the lettering on > the BLI model is NOT correct for a model with tombstone markers. > > For the claim of BLI "To be, without question, the highest quality > model railroading product money can buy" to be true, it would mean the > inclusion of correct era specific details to me (or even better, the > option to allow the modeler to add them...ie no markers on the loco, > but all three style smokebox markers, and clawfoot pilot markers > included in a little sack of parts..) > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > --------------090704060006000507010104 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------090208050506020108010201" --------------090208050506020108010201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Bruce,
Does the 1946 K4s 3727 lettering on the tender appear to be Futura style?


This photo was taken at Orangeville Yards Baltimore, Maryland.

Ken Meyer

Bruce Smith wrote:

On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Bill Daniels wrote:
Actually these are correct for the K4s in the
1940-1947 period,
as well as with the whistle shield
and blowdown muffler mounted on the firebox. The use
of old "claw" markers and class lights were
discontinued for passenger locomotives around 1939,
and the new markers were first used in 1940, which is
pre-war (at least for the U.S.).

Bill,

Not to pick nits <G>, but in fact the addition of "tombstone" markers to the smokebox occurred starting in June 1942, which would mean that it was "war time" and not "prewar" <VBG>  In addition, if you check Gay Mittner's web site, you can find more photos of K4s with claw foot pilot markers and no smokebox markers than you can with tombstone smokebox markers during the WWII years and a year or so beyond.

1944 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43680.JPG
1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43727.JPG
1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43775.JPG

Here's a photo shot on 4/4/48 of #3735 with a modern front end, cast pilot, pilot beam claw foots and no smokebox markers!
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43735.JPG

So, a true "pre war" K4s should either have clawfoot markers on both the smokebox and pilot beam, or post 1939, it should have just pilot beam markers.  Thus, I rest my case that the markers are not correct for a "pre war" K4s.  Although I can use the offered (undec) locomotive for my 1944 layout since I will letter it with extended lettering, I would like to mix in the other styles that were clearly around throughout the war... and as you point out, the lettering on the BLI model is NOT correct for a model with tombstone markers.

For the claim of BLI "To be, without question, the highest quality model railroading product money can buy" to be true, it would mean the inclusion of correct era specific details to me (or even  better, the option to allow the modeler to add them...ie no markers on the loco, but all three style smokebox markers, and clawfoot pilot markers included in a little sack of parts..)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
                           __
                          /  \
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 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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--------------090208050506020108010201-- --------------090704060006000507010104-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 22:09:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MTH HO scale K4s tender questions From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:50:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, IIRC, there was a tan color in some cars, which over time may have sun bleached to a grey from the outside. The best discussion on this ended with a suggestion that they were color coded to the interior; now comes the part of getting a list of interior colors, and matching the known shade colors. My resources have not revealed any definitive answer; however one of the lister might have it stored on a shelf. It's happened before! Anyone wish to share this info, should you have it? Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: ; ; "PRR-Talk LIST" ; ; Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway > All, > > On the topic of P70 coaches, were the window shades a standard color? In > the PRRT&HS book on passenger equipment, it looks like they were gray. > > Tom Riggs > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Smith" > To: ; ; > "PRR-Talk LIST" ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 3:36 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway > > >> Hi Folks, >> >> As some of you have already heard, the PRRPro group's next project will >> be the P70 series of cars. We will be getting underway officially on >> October 18th, but some discussions (like available models) have already >> begun. Please feel free to come by and check the group out at: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ >> >> The PRRPro group is open to all modelers of all scales. Rather than >> any one individual providing a step-by-step tutorial on a specific car, >> the group consists of many modelers who contribute both their questions >> and answers to the entire group as we each build the project. The P70 >> project includes any of the P70 series cars built or rebuilt by the PRR >> and the PB70 (passenger-baggage) and PBM70 (passenger-baggage-mail) >> series as well. We are anticipating that projects will include the >> ALCO/ECW P70 kits as well etched and laser cut car sides in both HO and >> N scale. >> >> We look forward to seeing you at PRRPro! >> >> BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post >> - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message >> %^) >> >> Regards >> Bruce >> >> Bruce F. Smith >> Auburn, AL >> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >> >> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >> Franklin >> __ >> / \ >> __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ >> |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | >> | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| >> |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| >> | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:56:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy & list- Is it feasable to sand/file one end, place a backing strip on the inside of the roof, then sand an insert to match the cobbled end configuration? given that the correct ends are used in assembly. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" ; Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, GS, > etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a > heavyweight > end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real streamlined > cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for postwar > P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif > =coa&sz=sm&fr> &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= > > The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that on > the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing space > inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing goes inside > end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a place for the > brakeman to ride outside the car. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > > _____ > > From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' > Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > > Bruce: > > As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color Guide > Vol. > 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of > both > the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the case with > the > Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of compound curvature as is > the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed P70FBR. What we have here is > simple-curvature transition from the end of the arch roof, in-line with > the > ends of the car-sides (a straight line across the roof, to the arched > car-ends. The nit I have to pick with the NKP roof end is that it has a > slight radius on the edge between the roof arch and the end transition > panel. The prototype photos show a sharp edge instead. > > There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same end > casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the > vestibule > end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for the blind ends. > The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt up > the > part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part thickness right. > > Bob Kessler > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST > Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE > Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > >> Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start >> of P70 >> modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, >> I'll >> call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type >> found on >> P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and >> the >> P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the >> lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and >> the >> diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, >> which were >> long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded >> end of >> the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at >> http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm >> seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. > > Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro > group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the > opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on > the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are > shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out > to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms > that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the > lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared > off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, > but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. > The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. > The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 > (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as > Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early > diagram with full width diaphragms. > > Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I > believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width > diaphragm and a squared end. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705063576:HM/EXP=1097266791/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp > anion.yahoo.com> click here > > :HM/A=2128215/rand=492360820> > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/YSTolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH HO scale K4s tender questions Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:22:19 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Do you think the photos on the website are really the HO model and not file photos of their O model? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:09 AM Subject: [PRR] MTH HO scale K4s tender questions > Hello list, > > I've been looking at the smallish photos on the MTH > web site for their HO scale K4s. > > http://www.mthhotrains.com/models.asp > > I'm trying to determine the tender type. I can't tell > if it has 3 or four steps nearest the engine cab. I > cannot see the rivet pattern at all. The coal bunker > is about the same length as the cistern, which is > generally indicative of a 110P75. 110P70s have 3 > steps, visible rivet pattern along the coal bunker, > and a coal bunker that's noticeably shorter than the > water space....see a stock Bachmann K4s for a 110P70. > > Since I model 1947-1950, I'm hoping for a 110P75a > (like the nice-looking BLI K4s I ordered) or 110P75. > > If the tender has 3 steps, it is not appropriate for a > stoker fired K4s (and would be right out for one with > a drop coupler pilot and modernized front end). > > I've ordered the MTH brochure from their web site, > which I hope will clear this up. > > Doug > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:25:30 GMT Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:25:30 GMT Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 16:44:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yes, I set my base level down to about 35 on the scale of I believe 128 for full volume, which is the default for BLI. I then adjust individual sounds to suit. Not only is it annoying when someone leaves their loco at full volume, it becomes doubly annoying when they haven't a clue as to whistle and bell signals so you get those as random junk noise. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Mazoch" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems > > Sond is nice, but after a while, it gets boing to me. Anyway, the poor people in our model towns or Lionelville must not be able to hear; the sound systems blew out their eardrums! By ratio, are not sound sytems "out of scale"? > > > Dominic Mazoch > > ________________________________________________________________ > Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. > Now includes pop-up blocker! > Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:53:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems From: "Dominic Mazoch" Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:12:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greeting to all..... I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in years. It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double headed K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute with the drivers slipping. Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "HENRY SHAEFER" Subject: [PRR] Remove me from your list Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:15:24 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please remove me from your mailing list. I do not wish to receive e mails anymore. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Alto tower in HO Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:22:34 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD09FE@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Alto tower in HO Thread-Index: AcSub/7ok8039CNEQM6/nY5EjGwU0g== From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2004 02:22:35.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[012DB780:01C4AE70] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone catch the ads in the new MR and RMC? The N Scale Architect will be doing some HO kits, including Alto tower. I think I'll have to grab myself one. Dave Owens ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Alto tower in HO Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:22:34 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD09FE@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Alto tower in HO Thread-Index: AcSub/7ok8039CNEQM6/nY5EjGwU0g== From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2004 02:22:35.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[012DB780:01C4AE70] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone catch the ads in the new MR and RMC? The N Scale Architect will be doing some HO kits, including Alto tower. I think I'll have to grab myself one. Dave Owens ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:25:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I can't find this listed anywhere, even on Google - any leads? TIA. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD > Greeting to all..... > > I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show > called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog > Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in years. > It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w > film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's > H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double headed > K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute > with the drivers slipping. > Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of > F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also > featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This > tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie > features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/10/04 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I personally think the sound system has a great potential. However my personal knowledge of what they all mean stops after two longs a short and a long. I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated if someone would post list or table of what they all mean. Thanks in advance. John W. Liebeskind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD > From: > Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:14:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:Whistle signals X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John & List, Do you have a 1956 Book of Rules? Page 19 & 20 give the all the whistle signals. It may be listed somewhere in Jerrys site of KEYSTONE CROSSINGS,but I could not find it. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:14:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:Whistle signals X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John & List, Do you have a 1956 Book of Rules? Page 19 & 20 give the all the whistle signals. It may be listed somewhere in Jerrys site of KEYSTONE CROSSINGS,but I could not find it. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:10:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" From: Frederick Ripley From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:43:04 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred: I believe it was a POC70R coach / lounge observation. NJ International produced one years ago. You may be able to find one at a train show. There were no sleepers on the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian, as they were all coach trains. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" > Hello All, > > Doe anyone have any suggestions about modeling the observation car for > the 1948 "Trailblazer" (in HO)? I understand that these cars were > coach/lounges, and would have run on both the "Trailblazer" and > "Jeffersonian". > > Once the "General" and "Trailblazer" were combined, the cars continued to > operate- they are in the PTT's as late as 2/58, and I have seen shots from > the early '60's with the car operating backward at the head of the train. > > When listed in the PTT, I assume this meant the car was at the rear (but > maybe not). If so, did that mean the sleepers were at the head of the > "General-Trailblazer", and coaches at the rear? > > Thanks for any info, > > Fred R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:06:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" From: Frederick Ripley From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:13:42 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The square-end buffet-lounge-observation built by Altoona in January and February 1948( I can't find the designation---it replaced the POC70R mentioned by Larry ) was to be included in the series of cars by the Middle Division. The P85br has been finally produced. I don't know if Ron Sebastian has plans to do the observation, diner, or combine to match the P85br. There is a picture of 1132 (one of four or five -?-sisters) on page 41 of Stegmaier's PRR Passenger Consists & Cars on that date in 1951 on the South Wind. I believe when a combined General-Trailblazer was run , 1953-1959, the car ran with the coach section on the rear of the train. It finished its days on the General until 1967, by that time running on the headend as you saw. Anybody else care to fill in the blanks? I don't have time to dig more out of my library. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" > Hello All, > > Doe anyone have any suggestions about modeling the observation car for > the 1948 "Trailblazer" (in HO)? I understand that these cars were > coach/lounges, and would have run on both the "Trailblazer" and > "Jeffersonian". > > Once the "General" and "Trailblazer" were combined, the cars continued to > operate- they are in the PTT's as late as 2/58, and I have seen shots from > the early '60's with the car operating backward at the head of the train. > > When listed in the PTT, I assume this meant the car was at the rear (but > maybe not). If so, did that mean the sleepers were at the head of the > "General-Trailblazer", and coaches at the rear? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:54:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Agree, most sound systems operated in the upper end of their volume range are too much. As for scale. Should you ever visit the operating railroad museum in Scranton, Pa., take the time to drive up the mountain side just outside of town to listen to the steamers wind upgrade along the river (creek?). You'll be a couple of hundred feet above the right-of-way but the sound will be very impressive with plenty of volume. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 06:09:09 +0200 From: "Jlmcdaniel" Subject: [PRR] RE: Incoming Msg From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:39:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For those that like working with plastic, Laser Horizons offers the POC70R car sides and those for the POC85AR. It is a one piece that wraps around the back. Regards, Dennis Sautters PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:13:28 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Dave: Thanks for the review on this new video. Are they any good shots on the = Ft. Wayne line or Panhandle heading out of Chicago and into Indiana? Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Greeting to all..... I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in = years. It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double = headed K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute with the drivers slipping.=20 Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash.=20 Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Frederick Ripley" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 06:27:14 -0400 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 10, 2004, at 4:43 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > I believe it was a POC70R coach / lounge observation. NJ International > produced one years ago. You may be able to find one at a train show. > There > were no sleepers on the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian, as they were all > coach > trains. I concur, it was a POC70R. Once the trains were combined, there were sleepers in the consist and a POC85 was on the rear... 1954 makeup per Makeup of Trains, New York Division: Mail Storage.....New York to Chicago or Beyond (MS60) (X) Baggage.....New York to Chicago (B60) Sleeping Car.....New York to Los Angeles (PS442) (To Santa Fe No. 17 at Chicago). Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (14 sections) "R. Watterson" OR "A. Squire" Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS21) "Latrobe Inn" OR "Lewistown Inn" Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS124) "Chimney Creek" OR "Chippewa Creek" Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS106) "Blue Rapids" OR "Octora Rapids" Lounge Car.....New York to Chicago (PS6L) "Larch Falls" OR "Catulpa Falls" Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85C) Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85D) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet).....New York to Chicago (POC85) 1953 makeup per Rails Northeast, January 1979: MS60 (X)...New York to Chicago or beyond B60 (Solid)...New York to Chicago PS106...New York to Los Angeles (To C&NW #1 at Chicago.) 14 section...New York to Chicago PS21...New York to Chicago PS124...New York to Chicago PS106...New York to Chicago PS6L...New York to Chicago D85C...New York to Chicago D85D...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago POC85AR...New York to Chicago ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:35:17 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry: When you say "combined", you're, speaking of the General and the Trailblazer, correct? Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "Frederick Ripley" ; Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" > On Oct 10, 2004, at 4:43 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > I believe it was a POC70R coach / lounge observation. NJ International > > produced one years ago. You may be able to find one at a train show. > > There > > were no sleepers on the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian, as they were all > > coach > > trains. > > I concur, it was a POC70R. > > Once the trains were combined, there were sleepers in the consist and a > POC85 was on the rear... > > 1954 makeup per Makeup of Trains, New York Division: > Mail Storage.....New York to Chicago or Beyond (MS60) (X) > Baggage.....New York to Chicago (B60) > Sleeping Car.....New York to Los Angeles (PS442) (To Santa Fe No. 17 > at Chicago). > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (14 sections) "R. Watterson" OR > "A. Squire" > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS21) "Latrobe Inn" OR > "Lewistown Inn" > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS124) "Chimney Creek" OR > "Chippewa Creek" > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS106) "Blue Rapids" OR "Octora > Rapids" > Lounge Car.....New York to Chicago (PS6L) "Larch Falls" OR "Catulpa > Falls" > Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85C) > Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85D) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet).....New York to Chicago (POC85) > > 1953 makeup per Rails Northeast, January 1979: > MS60 (X)...New York to Chicago or beyond > B60 (Solid)...New York to Chicago > PS106...New York to Los Angeles (To C&NW #1 at Chicago.) > 14 section...New York to Chicago > PS21...New York to Chicago > PS124...New York to Chicago > PS106...New York to Chicago > PS6L...New York to Chicago > D85C...New York to Chicago > D85D...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > POC85AR...New York to Chicago > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:45:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, October 11, 2004, at 07:35 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > When you say "combined", you're, speaking of the General and the > Trailblazer, correct? Correct, per the original query. Sorry, I should have repeated that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:35:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, May 28, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > PPG paint no. 7167 is a very close match to PRR Tuscan Red The doors > and > trim of my house are painted that color! The house is brick and the > windows > are anodized dark bronze. Just had the doors repainted a few weeks ago. Took my Dark Green Locomotive Enamel drift card to Home Depot on Saturday. Their computer says it is "black". Obviously Home Depot is somehow a successor to the NYC!!! Will try Lowe's, or perhaps the local Ace Hardware. I'm planning to use DGLE for the exposed benchwork and fascia. I will later paint whatever walls aren't sceniced and the door with appropriate structure colors. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] turnouts Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:28:00 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Did the PRR have their own standards for turnouts or anything unique about them? Anybody know of a source for #12 or 14 templates for HO? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:33:47 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Craig Miller wrote: "Some months ago. this topic came up & I was rebuked by one of the members for discussing it. This is my first post since. <> Unless it gets to a point where trademark discussions are pre-empting everything else, I find it petty to pick and censor/censure people who make mention of it. We're not talking about trolls posting flames or porn here, it is a subject that is relevant to the modelers of every current railroad & fallen flag. I think it is relevant to the PRR (& the hope that we will not have to pay a "gratuity" for every keystone added to our collections) and should we ignore it then we will have no one left to blame but ourselves when down the road we find ourselves paying a "usage tariff" Not that I want to debate the matter at length, just that I abhor censorship, it kills creativity & sense of community." It's true that the trademark issue is of vital importance to the future of the hobby. It's true that it's a threat that we can't ignore and that everyone needs to get smart about the issues and take action. However, it's also true that discussion about these issues tend to hijack the forums in which they are discussed. I'm backing the list moderator on his call to make this topic off-limits on PRR-Talk. It's not a question of censorship. It's a question of focusing the discussion where it will do the most good. This topic has arisen on many model railroad lists, and it almost always generates spirited discussion. Unfortunately, it always comes at the expense of the central subject of the given list, and ultimately a lot of heat is generated with very little light shed on the subject. In effect, it's the same as watching your dog chase his tail. A lot of energy is wasted and nothing gets solved. As I said, it's a vital issue, but we need to discuss it in the right forum. If you care about this issue, I recommend you do two things: 1. Read Bob Hundman's editorial in the current issue of Mainline Modeler. He does an excellent job of spelling out the issues involved and makes suggestions how you can help. 2. If you want to continue the discussion online, Mike Brock has established a forum for just that at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Licen/ E-mail Licen-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to join. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:45:30 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] PRR recording X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi everyone, A guy I work with, gave me a VINYL record entitled "An Audi= o Documentary to Steam" The record came in a box, along with a 16 page b= ooklet . The Chairman of the Board and the President of the PRR are pict= ured on the back of the supplement. Could I get some history on this? W= hen was it released? What caused the PRR to commision this? What value w= ould I give to my insurance carrier? Thanks for the help Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:50:04 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted: The scenes are pretty much as described -- Chicago 21st St (Alton Jct.)., Englewood, St. Louis Union Station throat, Terre Haute. I was a researcher for this project and there were a few high-speed open-countryside shots that we couldn't identify, but were apparently either the Fort Wayne main line or the Vandalia St. Louis main line (double track, high speed, streamlined K4s, etc.). Dan Cupper Ted Andrews wrote: >Hi Dave: > >Thanks for the review on this new video. Are they any good shots on the Ft. Wayne line or Panhandle heading out of Chicago and into Indiana? > >Ted Andrews > ----- Original Message ----- > From: zootowerprr@webtv.net > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 9:12 PM > Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD > > > Greeting to all..... > > I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show > called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog > Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in years. > It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w > film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's > H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double headed > K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute > with the drivers slipping. > Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of > F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also > featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This > tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie > features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:04:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The POC70R was from the original 1939 train. It was replaced with the POC85AR in 1948 before the General and Trailblazer were combined. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > I concur, it was a POC70R. > > Once the trains were combined, there were sleepers in the consist and a > POC85 was on the rear... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:35:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Over the weekend I hiked this old PRR branch from Devault to Phoenixville. NS hasn't run trains on it in nearly two years, and there are many fallen trees, so we felt safe. We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in them. http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html Does anyone have any idea what they are? It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like that. They might be PRR, Conrail or NS. I'm hoping someone knows what they could be. This branch didn't have much traffic under NS, and probably not much more under Conrail, so I think it's Pennsy. thanks. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:35:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Over the weekend I hiked this old PRR branch from Devault to Phoenixville. NS hasn't run trains on it in nearly two years, and there are many fallen trees, so we felt safe. We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in them. http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html Does anyone have any idea what they are? It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like that. They might be PRR, Conrail or NS. I'm hoping someone knows what they could be. This branch didn't have much traffic under NS, and probably not much more under Conrail, so I think it's Pennsy. thanks. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:38:02 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Try a true paint store like Benjamin Moore, PPG, Glidden, etc. too. Or you might try to just match the drift card to a paint chip card. Jerry Britton wrote: > On Friday, May 28, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > >> PPG paint no. 7167 is a very close match to PRR Tuscan Red The doors and >> trim of my house are painted that color! The house is brick and the >> windows >> are anodized dark bronze. Just had the doors repainted a few weeks ago. > > > Took my Dark Green Locomotive Enamel drift card to Home Depot on > Saturday. Their computer says it is "black". > > Obviously Home Depot is somehow a successor to the NYC!!! > > Will try Lowe's, or perhaps the local Ace Hardware. > > I'm planning to use DGLE for the exposed benchwork and fascia. I will > later paint whatever walls aren't sceniced and the door with > appropriate structure colors. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:23:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MTH HO K4s photo stand in? Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:56:36 +0200 From: "Jlmcdaniel" Subject: [PRR] RE: Text message Cc: Chuck Blardone , Jack Consoli From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:47:41 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Minor error in the F unit article in the new Keystone (Vol. 37, No. 3)... The last sentence in the first column on page 14, which continues onto page 15 reads: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the A-units as there was room for them in the upper screened segment that was longer than those on the A-units due to the lack of a cab." Note that a comparison is made, but both are "A" units. It should read: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." Nauseatingly great article -- thanks Jack and Chuck! (Can't imagine how much is carrying over to part two!) P.S. How long did the F units retain the diaphragms between units? 1954 or not? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Chuck Blardone , Jack Consoli From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:47:41 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Minor error in the F unit article in the new Keystone (Vol. 37, No. 3)... The last sentence in the first column on page 14, which continues onto page 15 reads: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the A-units as there was room for them in the upper screened segment that was longer than those on the A-units due to the lack of a cab." Note that a comparison is made, but both are "A" units. It should read: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." Nauseatingly great article -- thanks Jack and Chuck! (Can't imagine how much is carrying over to part two!) P.S. How long did the F units retain the diaphragms between units? 1954 or not? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:11:53 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would agree that it held something vertical for two reasons: 1. There is a rebar showing indicating this was the original position for these things since they are connected 2. The Eye Bolts indicate something vertical was steadied probably with some kind of cable. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from Bruce Smith : -------------- > On Oct 11, 2004, at 7:35 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > > We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in > > them. > > > > http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html > > > > Does anyone have any idea what they are? > > > > It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye > > on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like > > that. > > A tell-tale mast? (although why 2 is a question) Any clearance issues > around, like an overpass? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:28:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone check a track chart to see if anything was noted? I picture the two pieces of rail extending vertically as the frame for whatever it was. I suspect it held something that perhaps extended over the track and the bar between the blocks was used to prevent this "something" from falling down onto the tracks (via chain or wire). I agree that the eye bolts steadied this something laterally. Any evidence of piping? As in rural water stop? Was there ever a station in the area... mail pickup? Team track / derrick at one time? On Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 11:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I would agree that it held something vertical for two reasons: > 1. There is a rebar showing indicating this was the original position > for these things since they are connected > 2. The Eye Bolts indicate something vertical was steadied probably > with some kind of cable. > >>> >>> http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:50:23 +0200 From: "Jlmcdaniel" Subject: [PRR] Notification Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Text message Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD0A1D@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] RE: Text message Thread-Index: AcSwGGFJuoyZe2ziRHOEayRog5EZcgAYs73g From: "Owens, David" To: "PRR-TALK" Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2004 16:48:45.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[56892130:01C4B07B] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi there: two emails from jlmcdaniel@esva.net containing a virus have reached the = list. Could this person be removed. Thanks, Dave Owens -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jlmcdaniel Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:57 AM To: PRR-TALK Subject: [PRR] RE: Text message The original email was deleted because it contained the virus Bagle.AB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:02:47 -0400 Subject: LISTMASTER - Re: [PRR] RE: Text message From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First, this report should not have been made to the list. It should have been made to the listmaster directly. However, due to the recent outbreak, an explanation is due... Second, the way these viruses work is that they forge e-mail headers. I can verify that several of the header lines are forged. Usually the infected computer uses an address from the infected computer's address book as the REPLY address, meaning "jlmcdaniel@esva.net" may be an innocent bystander and not the culprit himself. Third, my mail filters are doing me a disservice, it would seem. By stripping the virus, it gets to the listserv. The listserv sees the REPLY address as a subscriber and the message contains no attachment so it processes it. If the anti-virus software hadn't stripped the attachment, the listserv would have killed it. Oy! Please bear in mind that extremely little SPAM gets to my lists -- compared to unmoderated groups on YeeHaw. My server recevies and blocks over 8,000 SPAMs/viruses PER WEEK! This is a one-man operation and sometimes new methods employed by SPAMmers require a few days attention to definitively determine a pattern. Acting too quickly results in "false positives", blocking legitimate traffic. Thank you. On Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 12:48 PM, Owens, David wrote: > Hi there: > two emails from jlmcdaniel@esva.net containing a virus have reached > the list. Could this person be removed. > Thanks, > Dave Owens > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > Jlmcdaniel > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:57 AM > To: PRR-TALK > Subject: [PRR] RE: Text message > > > The original email was deleted because it contained the virus Bagle.AB > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:07:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Alex, Would this be the piece of track that came off the former Phila & Thorndale Br at Glen Loch? If so that would have been the old Phoenixville Br to Devault. If I am not mistaken that line did not go through to Devault in the later Conrail years. Unknown what it did before about 1992. Seems that it was cut off somewhere after RT 202 went under it. Its been a while since I have worked in that area. Now the other track it could be is the old Schuylkill Br from West Phila to Reading. There was a tunnel just after you left Phoenixville heading towards Royerford. There would have been tell tales on both sides somewhere for warning. Don't know if the tunnel is still there or not. I don't have my CR Phila div map close at hand to get other information. Pat McKinney Altoona,Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Sutton Subject: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Sutton Subject: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:51:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, I've been trying to access the society's web page but I keep getting = site not found. Is the society's web still not working? Any idea of when = it will be fixed? Thanks, Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:51:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, I've been trying to access the society's web page but I keep getting = site not found. Is the society's web still not working? Any idea of when = it will be fixed? Thanks, Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:52:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] NJCB B74 Horse Express X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone have a brass NJCB B74 horse express that they are willing to part with? I can provide it with a good home... Contact me offlist at _rgortowski@aol.com_ (mailto:rgortowski@aol.com) Thanks! Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:00:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & all, Was wondering how long it would be before somebody picked up any of those blasted unavoidable errors that creep into every published work - here Part I of my F-unit article. The ones I have collected so far are: pg. 14: last sentence should read "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." pg. 39 lower caption should read "FP7As #9835A-9834A..." pg. 68 first two lines were repeated from the prior page pg. 68 as the result of the above, the last two lines vaporized, so add back "wheels of both trucks (axles #1 & #3) and had an actuating line from the" pg. 68 second caption, last sentence should read "the later incarnation..." instead of "The reincarnation..." This kind of stuff is very frustrating to all involved - part of the problem is that once you read something so many times you aren't actually reading what is there anymore but what you know should there. For example, the first and last were correct in the first document but changed somewhere along the line without being noticed. The second was my brain fade....duh. The extra/missing lines happened after the last draft review during a final minor adjustment by the publisher. So what's in part two? More detailed stories of the changes made to the units such as the origins of the lifting lugs, the removal of the diaphragms (that started in 1954), coupler doors, etc., plus the painting and lettering evolution, some other odds and ends and lots more photos. If anyone catches anymore goofs in the article please drop me a note. Thanks. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry @ Pennsy To: PRR-talk Cc: Chuck Blardone ; Jack Consoli Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:47 AM Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata > Minor error in the F unit article in the new Keystone (Vol. 37, No. > 3)... > > The last sentence in the first column on page 14, which continues onto > page 15 reads: > > "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the A-units as > there was room for them in the upper screened segment that was longer > than those on the A-units due to the lack of a cab." > > Note that a comparison is made, but both are "A" units. It should read: > > "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." > > Nauseatingly great article -- thanks Jack and Chuck! (Can't imagine > how much is carrying over to part two!) > > P.S. How long did the F units retain the diaphragms between units? 1954 > or not? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:08:35 -0400 To: prr-talk@dsop.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gentlemen, Thanks for the questions/answers... > Would this be the piece of track that came off the former Phila & > Thorndale Br at Glen Loch? If so that would have been the old Phoenixville Br to > Devault. If I am not mistaken that line did not go through to Devault in the > later Conrail years. Unknown what it did before about 1992. It went from Phoenixville to Frazer (to the Trenton Cutoff). > There was a tunnel just after you left Phoenixville heading towards > Royerford. There would have been tell tales on both sides somewhere for warning. Don't > know if the tunnel is still there or not. I don't have my CR Phila div map > close at hand to get other information. The tunnel is still there. If this was outside the wye, then you could get to the tunnel from here. But if it's inside, you'd need to reverse into it. In either case, you'd still need to go over a bridge and meet up with the other leg of the wye, BEFORE going into the tunnel. Here's an arial photo of the area. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx? t=1&s=11&x=1137&y=11107&z=18&w=2 If you've got an imagination, you can almost see the leg of the wye that was obliterated by that contstruction site. These boxes where on the "left field line" of that ball park near the bottom. Hard to say exactly where. > Alex were the objects in Phoenixville near the wye to the Reading/Norristown line ? If so they may have been part of > some support system for piping at the old Phoenixville Steel plant. The wye was in the middle of the plant way back > when. --- Ken McCorry One leg of the wye is completely gone. It's hard to tell if it was inside the wye. The Plant's infrastructure was all east of this spot. These things also sat alone, and nothing else was in the vicinity. > A tell-tale mast? (although why 2 is a question) Any clearance issues around, like an overpass? Nope. Up high on an embankment, between a long trestle and a highway overpass. > I suspect it held something that perhaps extended over the track and the bar between the blocks was used to prevent > this "something" from falling down onto the tracks (via chain or wire). > > I agree that the eye bolts steadied this something laterally. > > Any evidence of piping? As in rural water stop? None. It's not far from the Phoenixville train station. Pictures I've seen of it, showed water there. > Was there ever a station in the area... mail pickup? It's between two stations... kind of "urban" (still in Phoenixville boundaries) though out of the way. > Team track / derrick at one time? Negative. Here's a link to a topomap (an old one) that shows trackwork, and the approximate location. I could be off in either direction on the location. The only track that survives now is the one that runs from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock. http://topozone.com/map.asp? z=18&n=4442665&e=454843&s=25&size=l&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 A mystery! thanks again! -alex On Oct 11, 2004, at 8:35 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > Over the weekend I hiked this old PRR branch from Devault to > Phoenixville. NS hasn't run trains on it in nearly two years, and > there are many fallen trees, so we felt safe. > > We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in > them. > > http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html > > Does anyone have any idea what they are? > > It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye > on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like > that. > > They might be PRR, Conrail or NS. I'm hoping someone knows what they > could be. > This branch didn't have much traffic under NS, and probably not much > more under Conrail, so I think it's Pennsy. > > thanks. > -alex > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:07:34 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A Public Timetable of May 1948 shows: Pgh - Brownsville passenger service of 5 southbound trains: #810 daily except Sunday, except May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Pgh 4:47 pm, arrive Brownsville 7:17 pm. #814 only ran May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Pgh 4:19 pm, arrive Brownsville 6:49 pm. #812 daily, except May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Pgh 4:19 pm, arrive Brownsville 6:14 pm, no checked baggage. #804 Saturday only, depart Pgh 1:00 pm, arrive Brownsville 2:55 pm, no checked baggage. #806 daily except Sunday, departs Pgh 8:10 am, arrive Brownsville 10:35 am, (through train on Monongahela Railway to Fairmont W. Va.), arrives Fairmont 1:10 pm. 3 northbound trains: #807 daily except Sunday, except May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Brownsville 4:50 am, arrive Pgh 6:55 am, no checked baggage. #801 daily except Sunday, depart Brownsville 5:55 am, arrive Pgh 7:45 am. #815 daily except Sunday, depart Fairmont 2:50 pm, arrive Brownsville 5:20 pm, arrive Pgh 7:40 pm. A Monongahela Railway Timetable of September 1948 lists only trains 807, 815, 806 & 810, (but also list the northbound Fairmont train as #833). One RPO route was still operating on the Mon during that period - the Pittsburgh & Fairmont RPO over the joint PRR/MRY service on trains 806 & 833 (sometimes listed as 7806 & 7833) and it was authorized for a 15' mail section, but I was told that 30' section cars were used for the route as well. I have seen a photo of #833 with a BM70ka (30' RPO section) and a single P70 in December 1949. All I have heard and photos I have seen of those trains they utilized "hot" P70 coaches (non-air-conditioned) during that period. Commuter locomotives assigned there were: G5s #1960 10/48 through (at least) 9/49 G5s #3064 through (at least) 10/48 G5s #3108 through (at least) 9/49 G5s #3109 through (at least) 6/49 G5s #3571 through (at least) 9/49 K2sa #6229 through (at least) 7/49 Merchandise Service operated on the division as well, at least in 1951. Don't know off the top of my head when it started. Hope this helps a little, Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Angela Sutton To: PRR-Talk Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service > A few questions for you all... > > PRRPro is beginning the P70 project next week. I am > interested in working on some cars for Pittsburgh-area > commuter service, c. 1948-49, specifically the north > end of the Monongahela Division. The timetables I > have seen are from the early '30's (a dozen or so > commuter trains plus through service to the > Monongahela Railway at Brownsville) and 1954 (one lone > commuter train each way). I am guessing service in > the '40's fell somewhere in between those extremes, > but does anyone know how many commuter runs were > operating? > > Also, what equipment would be found on a typical > train? My guesswork would be G5s pulling 2-3 standard > P-70 coaches (not air-conditioned or modernized). > Would any modernized coaches have found their way into > the commuter pool yet? > > And finally, was there any mail or express service on > the Mon division at this time? If so, would any B or > BM type cars be moving over the division? > > Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:37:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 2,000,000 Served! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <2564D33A-1D36-11D9-A451-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Over the past 24 hours, "Keystone Crossings" served its 2 millionth page! (That's a page count, not a hit count.) I'm amazed that it happened that quick. I had checked early yesterday and it was at 1,197,xxx. Now it's already at 2,014,xxx. That's 17,000 page serves a day!!! We hit 1 million in April 2002, just before the PRRT&HS annual meeting in Camp Hill. So it took 30 months to hit the second million. It took about 72 months for the first million. So, how long until 3 million? Better start those office pools! Thanks for making "Keystone Crossings" the most popular Pennsy destination on the net! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] Condolences to Al Buchan Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:40:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:47:25 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Condolences to Al Buchan Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To al and All, I would aslo like to offer my deepest condolences to the Buchan Family as I too lost my Father earlier this year and understand fully the impact. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:08:51 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata >From: "jconsoli" >Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:00:07 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] OT Madison Wisconsin Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:45:58 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'll be in Madison Wisconsin from 10/16-10/20 for a training course, fittingly a railroad engineering course. Unfortunately I'll have no car but I was wondering if there are any good train things to do/see in either modeling or prototype. Please reply off-list so as not to waste bandwidth. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: " Ralph & Janet Kuester" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:31:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I don't know where I really need to start but your site came up on the = web. I have an old wooden trunk that you can vaguely make out an old sticker = that says Pennsylvania Railroad Emigrant Line New York to Wheeling, (this last line is pretty much gone; but I think it says Pittsburgh and = _____________) My husband and I both enjoy railroad memorabilia and just wonder when = this trunk traveled. =20 Any information will be appreciated. Thanks Janet Kuester ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Condolences to Al Buchan Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:04:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <0FCD316A.6BB92343.0261055E@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanx Greg and to all of you that have individually taken time from your busy schedules to offer condolences on the passing of my mother. It is difficult to have someone that you have spent your entire life with suddenly leave. She was a fine Christian woman and I know she has gone home to be with the Lord. Al and Janet ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR modules Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:12:33 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any thoughts or suggestions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR modules Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:12:33 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any thoughts or suggestions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR modules Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:42:08 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:12 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will > build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I > retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that > either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in > HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. > That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any > thoughts or suggestions? Yep, you're worrying about the wrong thing! Unless your module consists of a straight track from end to end, with no curves or turnouts, your 36" rule isn't going to work! Any curves or turnouts will immediately mean that you are at some odd measurement. In addition, the BEST joints are made by laying the track ACROSS the joint and then cutting it. Perfect alignment every time. Note that you might solder the bottom of the rail to an imbedded screw head on each side of the gap to keep things locked down. To me the critical issues are size and weight. Thus around 6', with a max of 8' is a maneuverable size... will it fit out the door, up the stairs etc in your current place. What about that staircase in the house you move to? Oh, you don't know what that house looks like, right... so you have to plan for tight spots!!! As for weight., I'm building all my modules in an "eggcrate" style with 1/4 luan - very strong, very light... and you pay movers by the pound... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:11:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article in Keystone From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <63A987C2-1DF3-11D9-A10A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One more note to Jack Consoli regarding his fine work on the F Unit article in the new Keystone... How soon can you start work on the E Unit article? ;-) I got through another 15 or so pages last night. Mind-boggling amounts of information! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Plates MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Anyone here able to help figure out what Baldwin Diesel Locomotive constructon #74103 was from? I am sure there is a list somewhere but nothing on the net that I could find. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Plates MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Anyone here able to help figure out what Baldwin Diesel Locomotive constructon #74103 was from? I am sure there is a list somewhere but nothing on the net that I could find. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:08:06 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002b01c4b0b6$6e595060$35682444@smiths> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sometime during Saturday September 26th the Society's website host, US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and in the process it appears they obliterated it. Webmaster Steve Agostini and I are in the process of trying to get things back to normal but your indulgence is requested, as it may take awhile. Unfortunately both Steve and I have been beset with problems involving our families and additional work, which take first priority. We'll keep you all posted. In the meantime: If you wish to use our e-Store you may access it at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html The Discussion Web may be accessed at: http://p214.ezboard.com/fprrthsdiscussionweb30239frm2 The October TKM may be accessed at: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf October's e-NEWS will be sent to all subscribers tomorrow, October 15th. To subscribe send a blank message to: And all four of the Society's Yahoo sites are operational. PRR-FAX, PRR-Modeling, PRR-Signaling:, and PRR Projects. Thanx for your continued interest. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:27:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society's Web Page From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <000001c4b221$26e8ea80$6401a8c0@ABBuchan> Message-Id: <0F2CC710-1E17-11D9-A10A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 03:08 PM, Al Buchan wrote: > Sometime during Saturday September 26th the Society's website > host, > US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older > equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and > in the process it appears they obliterated it. Very odd that they not only killed the web site, but also the DNS records, while other DNS records on the same DNS servers continue to function. (US LEC's Internet division is FastNet and the servers in question are ns1.fast.net, ns2.fast.net, and ns3.fast.net, all of which continue to operate.) I suggest they are not being fully honest with you... or at least the story is being changed "somewhere". Why not do a quick edit of the domain registration and at least get a placeholder page up on another server with an explanation, along with links to the other services that ARE working. At least then you are not losing potential members. Worry about the rest of the content later. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:30:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: mtevans@jps.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Society's Web Page X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton said [snip]: >>Why not do a quick edit of the domain registration and at least get a placeholder page up on another server with an explanation, along with links to the other services that ARE working. At least then you are not losing potential members. Worry about the rest of the content later.<< Better yet, Jerry, why don't we leave Mr. Buchan and Mr. Agostini alone to take care of things in their usual thorough and professional manner? I think that we all have plenty of other useful things to do while they are rebuilding the web site. Al and Steve, keep up the good work. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Society Web Page Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Society Web Page From: OhThoseVoices@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:17:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] prr module X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am in the process of building a sectional/modular layout,but using a combo of bi fold luan doors.All set up,with shelf brackets,and very strong and lightweight also.The duckunder/bridge will be hinged,but the rest of the joints have about five to seven inches of track across the gaps.I tried the flush edged track on the bridge/liftout/duckunder section,but too much of an irregularity,especially in "N" scale code 55.So,I have installed three inch overlaps there also. If I ever have to move,I can rearrange the modules,but with hindsight,I would've made the track on each end exactly the same,so complete interchangability would be possible.Oh well. Good luck,best regards. Jeff Jacobs Newbie SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] REA expres refers Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:13:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I know that this is not exactly PRR material however, I would appreciate = any help on the matter. I am interested in information about the REA = express refer paint schemes. When did the red and white logo with the = gold lettering first appear? How about the red and white logo with the = white lettering? Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:27:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger loco assignments X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/14/04 8:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:59:11 -0000 > From: "rangerjim94us01" > Subject: Terminal Assignments of EMD E-Units > > > > Does anyone have any information on the terminals to which Pennsy's > fleet of EMD E7 and E8 diesels, together with FP7s and other passenger > equipped diesels were assigned? > > Jim Mancuso In what little I'm exposed to, the systemwide E's were assigned to the Harrisburg enginehouse, and returned there on a regular, planned rotation. Early on, some FP-7's were assigned to Cincinnati, but apparently their base of maintenance moved at least up to Columbus later, though they were still commonly seen out of Cincinnati on the Richmond Branch and up the GR&I. As one might expect, (at least some of) the passenger-equipped GP-7's were assigned to Chicago, where they worked the Valpo commuter trains. On more than one occasion, one or two of these Geeps brought trains as far away from Chicago as Louisville, as local railfan photos show. I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:27:17 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Passenger loco assignments In a message dated 10/14/04 8:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Does anyone have any information on the terminals to which Pennsy's > fleet of EMD E7 and E8 diesels, together with FP7s and other passenger > equipped diesels were assigned? > > Jim Mancuso In what little I'm exposed to, the systemwide E's were assigned to the Harrisburg enginehouse, and returned there on a regular, planned rotation. Early on, some FP-7's were assigned to Cincinnati, but apparently their base of maintenance moved at least up to Columbus later, though they were still commonly seen out of Cincinnati on the Richmond Branch and up the GR&I. As one might expect, (at least some of) the passenger-equipped GP-7's were assigned to Chicago, where they worked the Valpo commuter trains. On more than one occasion, one or two of these Geeps brought trains as far away from Chicago as Louisville, as local railfan photos show. I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: suvcworr@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:04:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] Passenger loco assignments In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:28:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. There were some passenger equipped RS-3's assigned to the 28th Street roundhouse in Pittsburgh which were used in Pittsburgh commuter service. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:04:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Passenger loco assignments X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:28:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. There were some passenger equipped RS-3's assigned to the 28th Street roundhouse in Pittsburgh which were used in Pittsburgh commuter service. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:52:46 -0400 From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Picture Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:48:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gents, Although I deleted the e-mail a few days ago, I had a=20 thought about the picture. If, there are any nearby=20 roadcrossings, it could have been for an elevated relay=20 locker. I pass one everyday along the Northern Central on=20 its street trackage on my walk into work. This wouldn't explain the eyebolts on the bottom, but my=20 theory would conclude that theres a possibility the base=20 was pre-cast and the yebolts were there for a crane to=20 poisiton it with a cable into the correct position.=20 This same principle is used with modern pre-cast concrete=20 wall sections where a 6" piece of rebar is bent to act as=20 a hook for the overhead crane to attach, and later an=20 on-site crane. Once the wall section is in place the wall=20 surface is finished off and nobody knows the wiser. The railroad would have no reason to cover these anchors=20 for asthetic purposes. A few cents worth of thought. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:49:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale Part 1 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond $ 95 PRR CT 1000E 5-1-45,Very Good cond. $35 PRR CT 1000C 5-1-45,Very Good Cond $85 PRR CT 4001 6-1-64,new,never issued $20 PRR Altoona Shops & Yards,Shows shop layout & complete yd $25 PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a front view, a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8 tracks wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11 $25 PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to Slope, Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14 $25 PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & inclines, New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen. $9 PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper $1 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay $350.00 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60,very good cond. $21 PRR MW52(D) Unused,Excellent Cond $27 PRR C.E. 78 Manual for construction,unused, excellent cond. $27 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused $5 PRR Annual Report-1925 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle $45 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.24 9-27-36 $40 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.30 9-24-39 $40 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.9 4-27-47 $35 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.3 9-28-52 $30 PRR Mid. Mid. Div No.6 4-25-54 $30 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.5, 4-27-58,VGused cond w/G.O.'s $25 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.8, 10-25-59,VG used cond,not issued $25 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.11,10-29-61,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.12,10-28-62, VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s $20 PRR Hiring Manual - Nov,1956 Very good cond, $20 PRR Elec. Opr. Inst.,1960 rev.,VG cond, unissued $9 PRR Book of Rules,10-28-56,VG cond,unissued $9 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, 75 cents $10 ea.bk PRR Grab bag assrtmnt of over 23 items in brown interoffice evlp - $25 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin $30 PRR 40 year Silver service pin $30 PRR Lounge Car Smoking Stand,Good used cond,not perfect,as it came out of the lounge car,Heavy $450.00 PRR Flag & Fusee Case $45 PRR Stainless Steel water can,Very Good cond $45, W/O lid - $40 PRR Keystone Whislte Sign,Excellent cond,Repainted( had to before the pigeon dirt corroded it),Heavy $250 Thank You Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:50:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale Part 2 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water marks on cover only $5 PC 1967 Annual Report - good used cond $10 PC 1968 Annual Report - good used cond $10 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.4 5-1-70,New,no G.O.'s $17 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.4 5-1-70,with G.O.'s $15 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.5 12-15-72,with green vinyl cover $18 PC Leather Conductors Wallet,Well used but still nice cond $10 PC MW1-New Unused $ 15 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section for inspection,2nd section for construction $12 PC Grab Bag assrmnt of 14 items in Lrg PC 11 x 14 envlp - $20 PC MW4 - New cond,no cover $10 PC MW4 - New Cond,unused $15 PC Hand towel,Green logo and name sewn in - $18 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 PC Long neck Journal oil can,VG used cond $45 CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $100 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 CR Annual Report-1982,83,85,86,87 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent. $30 CR Safety Committee sewn patch,blue background,white logo and letters $10 CR First Aid Kit,Opened,one or two packets used,VG cond,a must for train room $35 CR STARR Car Insp Blue Lite,Flashes,New, never used - $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy $35 Pullman Hand Towel,has PC & UP logo stamped in black ink over ea.other,gd cond - $18 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only $50pr Atlas SD7,w/DB, undec,new ,never run,cracked plastic box $45 Atlas SD9,NKP,no DB,new ,never run,w/plastic box $45 Unmarked Flag & Fusee case,used but good cond - $30 Unmarked Kero can,used good cond. - $35 Unmarked Battery Flashing Marker,New, never used - $35ea.,Pair - $60 Unmarked STARR Car Insp blue lite,non-Flashing - $25 Thank you. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Joebrann@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am building a freelanced HO-scale based in Williamsport, PA. As a freelanced RR we have incorporated many concepts and terminology from our neighboring big brother; but I still have a question. I have been very kindly pointed to the CT1000 series of books; but I don't think my answer is there. So my question is what system of sort identification did the PRR use in the early 1950-s? The CT1000 book seemed to give station and siding but not individual spot IDs. thanks Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Joebrann@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am building a freelanced HO-scale based in Williamsport, PA. As a freelanced RR we have incorporated many concepts and terminology from our neighboring big brother; but I still have a question. I have been very kindly pointed to the CT1000 series of books; but I don't think my answer is there. So my question is what system of sort identification did the PRR use in the early 1950-s? The CT1000 book seemed to give station and siding but not individual spot IDs. thanks Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:02:23 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, You are looking for something that did not exist. Penn Central adopted what was called the DICCS (Demurrage Inventory Car Control) system from the NYC which assigned local numbers to sidings, and Conrail adopted a systemwide numbering called SPINS. But, THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD HAD NO SUCH SYSTEM AT ALL. So, you can't find the information you are seeking. The CT1000 is the best you'll find. I worked in the traffic department of the PRR as Office Manager, Rate Clerk, and Sales Representative. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 8:08 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s > > I am building a freelanced HO-scale based in Williamsport, PA. As a > freelanced RR we have incorporated many concepts and terminology from our > neighboring > big brother; but I still have a question. I have been very kindly pointed > to > the CT1000 series of books; but I don't think my answer is there. So my > question is what system of sort identification did the PRR use in the > early 1950-s? > The CT1000 book seemed to give station and siding but not individual spot > IDs. > > thanks > > Joe Brann > Owner / Engineer > Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) > Orlando, FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:31:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg, my impression agrees with your statement that the Pennsy didn't have such a system, but I own a Conrail ZTS (Zone-Track-Spot) book for Chicago-Elkhart. Did they use SPINS before ZTS as a designation? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Conrail adopted a systemwide > numbering called SPINS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:41:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:39:51 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Randy and list, Was not aware of a symbol system for car placement on the Chicago Division. I suspect that many terminals had some sort of system to differentiate sidings, but these were local and not system. There were also "left-right reports" but those were TOP SECRET, sort of, made for office car trips by the top brass. Bob and Al, I was thinking of ZTS, another RR must have called the same system SPINS - bet it was the SP. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Williamson" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; ; Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s > At 08:02 PM 10/15/2004, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >>You are looking for something that did not exist. Penn Central adopted >>what was called the DICCS (Demurrage Inventory Car Control) system from >>the NYC which assigned local numbers to sidings, and Conrail adopted a >>systemwide numbering called SPINS. But, THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD HAD NO >>SUCH SYSTEM AT ALL. So, you can't find the information you are seeking. >>The CT1000 is the best you'll find. > > > Greg, > > What about the Symbol System for Car Placement the Pennsy used on the > Chicago Division? Or is that similar to the CT1000. > > Randy > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:45:14 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:09:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? = Where the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could = they be found on any train? Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:09:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? = Where the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could = they be found on any train? Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:32:03 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff Smith asked: "Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? Were the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could they be found on any train?" Gregg Mahlkov answered: "The cars marked "Merchandise Service" were used to transport Less Than Carload (LCL) freight between freight houses and were generally used on line. PRR had special trains between major yards that handled LCL and Freight Forwarder traffic and were designated LCL-#. Not all LCL freight moved in "Merchandise Service" cars, but they were used almost entirely to handle LCL freight. Since LCL was often interchanged in "ferry cars" moving in switching service between freight houses of each railroad at junction points, these cars rarely if ever left the PRR." Some did - a photo of a Class X29 car in MS2 passing through Council Bluffs, Iow in 1954 is in PRR Color Guide Vol 2. However, the Class X29 cars assigned to LCL service lacked the special handling equipment that the Class X29B, X40B, and X41 cars had, and this car may have been "stolen" for general freight service. See my article in the October issue of "The Keystone Modeler" for more information on PRR Merchandise Service boxcars: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:49:05 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Steam Heat From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <330FEEFF-1FBD-11D9-82DA-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.169 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi group, In getting ready for the upcoming P70 project I posed a question to this group about the change from a hose to articulated pipe for the steam line connection between cars. Further investigation has shed some light on the subject. Originally steam connections were a hose with a connector similar to a brake line. By 1893 the PRR had 41% of its cars converted to steam and another 23% on the way. The relatively low pressure of direct and indirect car heating was within the limits of the hose. In 1904 vapor heat was introduced and the steam line pressure went up. the hose topped out at 130 pounds, and PRR manuals at the time advise not to exceed 115 pounds. The hoses wore out quickly and steam pressure went beyond its limits so the pipe connector began to be used and by the end of the '20's was the more common. Hoses were barred for interchange service in 1937. Steam pipes were 2" and in 1948 2.5". The various heating systems and connector types caused compatibility problems. From "The American Railroad Passenger Car" by John White, Jr. and PRR heating and ventilating systems 1910 and 1920. I'm guessing that the P70 was never built with indirect heating. I know, never say never. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Lehman" Subject: [PRR] Invoice/Train Order for Cambridge, Md 10/28/1958 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 19:41:26 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yesterday I bought 2 Invoice/Train Order for Cambridge, Md from = 10/28/1958 & 10/31/1958 at antique store. Here is what they looked like The Pennsylvania Railroad = C.T 248-8 Chesapeake Region = 125m 6x12 7-12-55 Delmarva Dist. Division = Order for drilling freight cars Cambridge Md Station 10/28/1958 to Condr.D200 Hours 6 A.M. CAR To be shipped = = Remarks -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------------------- Initials Numbers From what track or train = number To what track or train number W.M 13239 D201 of 27th = Rear Yard #5 X = Coal W.M. 10618 do do = Rear Yard #5 E = Coal MKT 92188 do do = Dorc. Fertz. Platform X Wabash 7777 do do = Dorc. Fertz. Next Rear X N.Y.C 107005 do do = Natl Can = See below PLE 30236 do do = Natl Can = do do Erie 81443 do do = Natl Can = do do Put two Natl Cars behind cars behind cars now at door 2 & 3 or leave out = until next shift.=20 Leave one at door #1. Three cars stone for Linkwood leave on storage = track. Take six hoppers of stone from storage to Linkwood. Take one empty box from yard #5 to Linkwood to Load Wood. Move three empty grain box yard #0 to Hurlock or Preston. Dorchester Fertz. wants tanks pulled toward switch far enough so they = can pull one empty from platform & place X. CBQ 91272 Yard #1 = Colehour, Al ed = empty D & H 7578 Nuttle = Hudson, Pa = ed empty C.N.W 3401 Natl Can = Coastal #25 = empty PLE 22068 " " = Coastal #25 = empty place other two cars " " = Doors 2 and 3 WFEX 66786 25 = Waterloo, Iowa ed = x cg BREX 76138 25 = Rockford, Ill = ed x cg WFEX 66461 25 = Rockford, Ill = ed x cg Wabash 88091 25 = New Cumberland, Pa ed x = cg T&NO 58885 25 = New Cumberland, Pa ed x = cg move four RFGRS storage = 25-26 move two RFGRS 20 = yard #1 PRR 77165 Linkwood = Spring Grove, Pa = XW00 PRR 717165 Linkwood = Altoona, Pa ed = empty PRR 193787 Linkwood = Altoona, Pa ed = empty Check with unloader and move any more that are empty. This report must be filed with jurisdiction Agent as promptly as = possible after completion of work. The initials and numbers of cars to be dispatched must be given to the Yardmaster at one hour before leaving time of train. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Lehman" Subject: [PRR] Invoice/Train Order Cambridge,Md 10/31/1958 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 19:53:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Pennsylvania Railroad = C.T. 248-8 12 Chesapeake Region = 125m 6x12 7-12-55 Delmarva Dist. Division = Order for drilling freight cars Cambridge Md Station 10/31/1958 to Condr.D200 Hours 6 A.M=20 CAR To be shipped = = Remarks -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------------------- Initials Numbers From what track or train = number To what track or train number C & O 28298 D201 of 30th = 20 = X Beans LV 61471 do do = Yard #1 = X Mdse I.C. 25219 do do = Dorc. Fertz. Platform = X Potash WM 28639 do do = Yard #x1 = X Cement CN 541381 do do = Yard #1 = X Cement There is a tank behind platform being unloaded handle with care. NP 19580 Camb. Mfg. Co. = Canton Balto MD Ed X = Beans UP 182869 Yard #1 = Camb. Mfg. Co. = Empty WFEX 66441 Yard #1 = Sunbury, Pa Ed = X Cg F.G.E 57720 Yard #1 = Sunbury, Pa = Ed X Cg W.M. 13239 Yard #5 = York, Pa = Ed Empty W.M. 10806 Yard #5 = York, Pa = Ed Empty Move the eight empty box yard #5 to rear of Linkwood for wood loading. N & W 53296 25 = Petersburg, Va = Ed X Cg CNW 3491 25 = Charlotte, Nc = S X Cg PLE 22068 25 = Hampton, Va = S X Cg WFEX 73160 25 = St Paul, Minn = Ed X Cg FGEX 39300 25 = Linden, Nj = Ed X Cg PRR 68859 Linkwood = Spring Grove, Pa Ed = X Wood Move the empty cars from Linkwood Tickets at D. Hereto Southern 30928 20 = Yard #5 to = be inspected MILW. 18100 20 = Yard #5 do = do do CNW 82600 Natl. Can Co. = Yard #5 do do = do CNW 86906 Natl. Can Co. = Yard #5 do do = do MEC 4889 Natl. Can Co. = Yard #5 do = do do Leave PLE 5920 and CNW 9025 at doors 2 & 3. Move one 46 ft. cond. storage = Natl. Can door #1 Move SAL box rear of Frozen food to Platform #25 This report must be filed with jurisdiction Agent as promptly as = possible after completion of work. The initials and numbers of cars to be dispatched must be given to the Yardmaster at one hour before leaving time of train. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 23:56:56 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <002301c4adc4$ae304210$dcb172d8@your6bvpxyztoq> Thread-index: AcStxTfTchOJ9tf0QQK95z1Hnt5oVAGN0lcA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I suppose so, but here is how I have done it. I used a standard streamlined roof, usually from a Rivarossi car, but TSP roof is probably the better choice now. Cut it to the correct length including the slight overhang. I then build a flat end and glue the door posts on made from plastic channel (3/32 inch as I recall). I then cut a curved piece of .020 plastic for the letterboard extension that would have been on the top of the end if the car had a more typical HW roof. I then back fill behind this with Squadron putty. If this is a vestibule end, I then glue plastic bulkheads on between the door posts and the corner of the car. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Fred in Vt. Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 1:56 AM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST'; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Andy & list- Is it feasable to sand/file one end, place a backing strip on the inside of the roof, then sand an insert to match the cobbled end configuration? given that the correct ends are used in assembly. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" ; Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, > GS, etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a > heavyweight end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as > real streamlined cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is > the one for postwar P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gi > f > if&sel > =coa&sz=sm&fr> &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= > > The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that > on the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing > space inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing > goes inside end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a > place for the brakeman to ride outside the car. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > > _____ > > From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' > Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > > Bruce: > > As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color > Guide Vol. > 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of > both the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the > case with the Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of > compound curvature as is the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed > P70FBR. What we have here is simple-curvature transition from the end > of the arch roof, in-line with the ends of the car-sides (a straight > line across the roof, to the arched car-ends. The nit I have to pick > with the NKP roof end is that it has a slight radius on the edge > between the roof arch and the end transition panel. The prototype > photos show a sharp edge instead. > > There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same > end casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the > vestibule end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for > the blind ends. > The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt > up the part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part > thickness right. > > Bob Kessler > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST > Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE > Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > >> Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start >> of P70 modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes >> here, I'll call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and >> the type found on P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that >> both the P70gsR and the P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a >> squared off end as on the lightweight sleepers. The only photos I >> have seen of either car, and the diagrams on Rob's site, show the >> cars with full-width diaphragms, which were long gone by 1954. These >> diaphragms could have covered up the rounded end of the roof, if I am >> correct. NKP Car Co. at >> http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm >> seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. > > Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro > group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of > the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof > on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D > are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent > out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width > diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like > the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were > "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double > check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. > The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. > The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 > (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and > as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early > diagram with full width diaphragms. > > Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I > believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width > diaphragm and a squared end. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 6/D=gr > oups/S=1705063576:HM/EXP=1097266791/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http: > //comp > anion.yahoo.com> click here > > ups/S= > :HM/A=2128215/rand=492360820> > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/YSTolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:40:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cove signal bridge X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just in case it hasn't been mentioned the classic PRR position light signal bridge spanning 3 tracks at MP 116 at Cove, Pa south of Duncannon is in the process of being replaced by a modern version with new style signals. Still in service today, the first main support post of the new one is in place on the west side of the tracks with the bridge mostly assembled sitting on the ground. By this time next month it will be gone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:21:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Chicago Hobby Show From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:43:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Hobby Show MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Ken, That's the way most "hobby" shows are. Very little trains and big on diecast,RC planes,cars,etc. The East Coast Hoppy Show is the same way here in Phila. (Fort Washington Expo). I go to see what Athearn,Walthers, Atlas,Like-Like and others have planned for the future. Any news on the BLI K4 release date? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] Getting your models into The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:59:45 -0700 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Getting your models into The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:17:20 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As one of the published authors whose modeling effort is average at best I heartily concur with Elden's comments. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." : -------------- > Hi all; > > I wanted to ask each and every one of you to consider writing an article for > the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society's magazine, "The > Keystone Modeler". > > If you have not already seen it, the magazine is published on-line, and is > free to all (the website is currently down for re-construction, but should > be back up soon), and features a broad range of PRR equipment, structures > and infrastructure, as modeled by a variety of folks. While a lot of > prototype info is included, the focus of the magazine is on modeling, as a > companion to the Society's flagship, and prototype/historically-oriented > hardcopy publication "The Keystone". > > Because the magazine is free, we do not have the funds to pay authors, but > it is a great chance to get an article in print without the usual > constraints on your work. We are not limited by text length (so far, at > least!), subject matter, or most importantly number and size of images (we > like to present a LOT of photos), but ask that it be of a PRR subject. > > I've seen a lot of really exceptional PRR modeling, and would love to see > some of it displayed and discussed in the manner it deserves, not some > chopped-down little article with miniscule b&w images, or some tiny photo > where you can't see the craft that goes into a model. > > BTW, several folks that had not written for a publication before got in > contact with us, wrote a draft article and took images, got feedback from > us, and published great articles and images in a relatively short time > frame. If you were considering it, do it! > > We are currently looking for submittals on PRR passenger cars, steam, > electrics, structures, and lineside details. And as always, we continue to > publish a wide variety of articles on freight cars and diesels. > > Please feel free to contact myself, Al Buchan, or Jack Consoli (reply to > this, and we will all get it), about how to get involved. > > Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you; > > Elden Gatwood > Chair, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lawrence Rast" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:20:27 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are a couple of nice recent pics of the Signal Bridge at = http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=3D80347 and = http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=3D80534. Also one at = http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D40760. Regards, Larry Rast ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KLJURY@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Just in case it hasn't been mentioned the classic PRR position light signal bridge spanning 3 tracks at MP 116 at Cove, Pa south of = Duncannon is in the process of being replaced by a modern version with new style signals. Still in service today, the first main support post of the = new one=20 is in place on the west side of the tracks with the bridge mostly assembled = sitting on the ground. By this time next month it will be gone. =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OhThoseVoices@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 20:01:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com it really was sad to see the "new" stuff there....but the PRR bridge was making the last stand before the south won the war.. Iron,and rusted,Aged and many first kisses were made there,The shiny silver won't be anything but cold...informal..robotic... LONG LIVE THE PRR Jeff Jacobs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:42:21 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ladies and Gents, On a happier note, before tiring this entinel to many=20 years of service Norfolk Southern offered this signal=20 bridge to a railroad museum. If all goes as planned,=20 arrangements have already been made to take apart the=20 bridge, sand blast it, and cut it down to size to fit, in=20 working order somewhere else within Pennsylvania, gaurding=20 engines that once traveled by its signal. Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:52:53 +0000 From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Common Types of Air Horns Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:25:34 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com From another list and worthy of a repost... On Oct 19, 2004, at 1:26 AM, jconsoli wrote: To summarize the data presented in my article on the F-units in the autumn Keystone, For the F's: 1947-1949 F's were built with Leslie A-200 single note horns (40 F3A + 20 F7A) 1951 F7A's were built with Leslie A-125-3E ( 68 A-units) 1950 F7A + 1952 FP7A were built with Nathan M3 (27 F7A + 40 FP7A) 1952 F7A built with Leslie S3-J (8 F7A) Additionally, for the E's: 1st two 1945 E7A built with dual single horns All other E7A built with Leslie A-200 (44 A-units) 1950 E8 A-units were built with M3 (10 units) 1951 units were built with Leslie A-125-3E (18 units) 1952 units were built with a mixture of M3 and S3-J (46 units) So the totals were: A-200 = 104 A-125-3E = 86 M3 = 67 + approx. 20-ish S3-J = 8 + approx. 26-ish other = 2 Note that this was for the as-built condition of the units. Many changes occurred over the lives of the units. As far as I found, all the EFP-15's retained their EFP-15 classes until the were disposed of, indicating that they were still equipped for dual service, which would have included their steam generators. Also, I have yet to see a photo where the rooftop vents are missing, either. Most of the EFP-15 were in dual service most of their lives and thus there isn't a real answer as to when they "pulled" from passenger service. I only found evidence that 4 A-B-A sets were assigned to full time passenger service in 1953 and remained so until about 1956, as best I can piece together. Hope this helps. Jack Consoli ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] P70 "Schemes" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:58:28 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In keeping with the P70 project on PRRPro, I have always wondered about the various numbered "schemes" the PRR used to designate various P70 rebuilds. It seems unrelated top the subclasses. Does anyone have an explanation of the them? regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] P70 "Schemes" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:58:28 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In keeping with the P70 project on PRRPro, I have always wondered about the various numbered "schemes" the PRR used to designate various P70 rebuilds. It seems unrelated top the subclasses. Does anyone have an explanation of the them? regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:41:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain HO Scale FP7's and N Scale F3's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <29D93643-21CC-11D9-B4B6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... InterMountain made formal part number announcements at the recent iHobby Expo on some locomotives that we knew were coming. HO scale EMD FP7A Phase II locomotives have been announced and PRR Tuscan Five-Stripe units are in the lineup. On-board sound option. Four road numbers available. Suggested retail price $199.95 with sound; $129.95 without. N scale EMD F3A and F3B Phase II locomotives have been announced and PRR units are in the lineup. Four road numbers available. Due this winter. Suggested retail price $89.95 for A units; $84.95 for B units. NOTE: The F3 pilots will be correct (EMD "enclosed coupler pilot"... a.k.a. "passenger pilot"), but the number boards will not. The PRR was the sole road that purchased the small, streamline number boards. Every other road opted for the larger, angled boards. Due to the high manufacturing costs of an additional mold, InterMountain will not be creating correct shells for the PRR. An article will be forthcoming in "N Scale Railroading" on converting the IM F3's into correct Pennsy F3's. Other than the number boards, these models should be pretty accurate from the factory. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:20:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The museum will be getting everything, including the lamps=20 and targets. -John "E. Mike" wrote: Do you feel that NS targeted this signal for replacement=20 because it had become a popular railfan hotspot? Shame they shouldn't have just transfered the old hardware=20 onto the new gantry. Will the old bridge keep the signals=20 that currently adorn it when donated? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:43:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline 12-1's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6F86F588-21CC-11D9-B4B6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... Branchline was supposed to ship the HO scale Pennsy 10-1-2's last week, but they did not. However, the HO scale Pennsy 12-1's -- not expected until December -- will start shipping TODAY! This will be the "classic" scheme only.... the "Fleet of Modernism" scheme will follow. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:00:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 "Schemes" From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 08:58 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > In keeping with the P70 project on PRRPro, I have always wondered > about the > various numbered "schemes" the PRR used to designate various P70 > rebuilds. > It seems unrelated top the subclasses. Does anyone have an > explanation of > the them? The 1954 New York Division Makeup of Trains covers this near the front. It specifies the number of seats each had, and which road numbers were which scheme. It also spells out which trains various schemed PB70's were assigned to. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:35:35 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] OT: Stewart Hobbies Closes??? From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:38:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:38:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] OT: Stewart Hobbies Closes??? Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:53:37 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The latest posting indicates it was purchased by Bowser from someone who contacted Stewart by phone. I need to think about whether this is good or not and what the long term ramifications are for us PRR modelers. My initial thinking is at least it was bought by someone who is bringing PRR products to the marketplace. -------------- Original message from Randy Williamson : -------------- > There has been talk on several lists that Stewart Hobbies has closed. Some > say they have read on the web site that it is closed. I have went to their > web site and there is no mention of it. The web site was updated as of the > 15th of this month. Has anyone been able to find out if this is true or not? > > Randy > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:57:06 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 19, 2004, at 9:38 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the > forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is > being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be > announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's > their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or > is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell Norm, The latest, from Ken McCorry, indicates that Steve Stewart told Ken this morning that the company has been sold to........ BOWSER! Verrrrrrrry interesting.... The web site appeared to have been hacked as well, perhaps by a disgruntled ex employee, but is back (hit refresh). Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:02:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] OT: Stewart Hobbies Closes??? From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 10:53 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > The latest posting indicates it was purchased by Bowser from someone > who contacted Stewart by phone. I need to think about whether this is > good or not and what the long term ramifications are for us PRR > modelers. My initial thinking is at least it was bought by someone > who is bringing PRR products to the marketplace. I've been told I can publicly confirm that Stewart Hobbies has been sold to Bowser. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:03:21 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies Sold not closed Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I spoke with them at 11:35 AM EST. October 19th There will be an announcement later today and it will posted on the website. Stewart has been sold it is not closing. Bowser has bought the line and will continue to sell the products as Stewart. At least that was my conversation. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] P70 "Schemes" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:09:51 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton: "NOTE: The dashes in the classes are present in the original PRR document!" PRR internal documentation is noriously inconsistent; however, if you go by freight car painting diagrams, particularly those for CK, the dash is not there, and virtually all of the photo documentation (save the Class X43 and subclass cars built by outside vendors) backs this up. Obviously, it's somewhat less critical for a modeler from a passenger car standpoint as the car class is not prominently stenciled on the side of the car. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:30:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Official Bowser/Stewart Announcement From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <06cd01c4b609$69ff0ca0$1401a8c0@LEESONY> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just "off the wire" from Bowser... On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 02:06 PM, Lee English wrote: > Bowser Mfg. Co., Inc. is pleased to announce the acquisition of > Stewart Hobbies, Inc. We wish to thank Steve Stewart for 20 years of > excellence in model railroad manufacturing. Bowser will continue the > proud tradition that Steve has established. These great models will > continue to be marketed under the name Stewart Hobbies and, as always, > will be available at your local hobby shop and model railroad > retailer. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:15:11 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain HO Scale FP7's and N Scale F3's Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton writes in part from the PRR-TALK LIST... " (Snip)but the number boards will not. The PRR was the sole road that purchased the small, streamline number boards. Every other road opted for the larger, angled boards. Due to the high manufacturing costs of an additional mold, InterMountain will not be creating correct shells for the PRR." This is not entirely correct as other roads did continue to use the "3 and 4 digit streamlined number board" even when EMD enouraged the alternative... Remember there was one EFP-15 rebuilt with an FT (nee_GN electric)nose section after a accident in the late sixites as well. But that is not the focus of my post... The N-Scale Modeler can make the conversion it two ways... First, by removing the 45° number-boards and replace them with scratch built styrene number boards. I am not aware of any N-Scale detail part replacements for these, perhaps Brian Butcher or Doug Nelson can correct me if I am wrong... OR Secondly by ordering an FT shell (As Marty suggested to me in Seattle) and removing the nose and cab section and repainting and decaling the modified shell... Sounds like a lot of work to me, but an option. Personally, I think most modelers with welcome these new PRR units in N Scale even though there may be a little work involved, something we seem to get used to as KEYSTONE MODELERS. The PRRT&HS Modeling Committee will be working on the correct P&L diagrams with IMRwy. Again, Thanks to Marty for considering many Keystone Modelers request to do the F-units... We should also thank Brian Butcher and Doug Neslon for quiet canvasing... Faith moves mountains. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:36:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 03:15 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > The N-Scale Modeler can make the conversion it two ways... First, by=20= > removing the 45=B0 number-boards and replace them with scratch built=20= > styrene number boards. I am not aware of any N-Scale detail part=20 > replacements for these, perhaps Brian Butcher or Doug Nelson can=20 > correct me if I am wrong... OR Secondly by ordering an FT shell (As=20 > Marty suggested to me in Seattle) and removing the nose and cab=20 > section and repainting and decaling the modified shell... Sounds like=20= > a lot of work to me, but an option. The second was my original plan of attack, but I have since backed off.=20= The IM F3 unit will be available with either freight or passenger=20 pilots. We all know our railroad of choice used the passenger pilots --=20= except the helper set. The FT shell has a freight pilot, but Charlie=20 Vlk tells me it is NOT the same freight pilot later applied to the F3.=20= So the nose-swap scenario requires a pilot change in all cases as well. No, there currently are no detail replacement boards for these.=20 However, I have had a very busy day today and it looks like I have=20 resolved that! Hopefully "all the pieces will come together" (pun=20 intended) by the time the F3 actually ships. Lift rings for the front are available, as are train phone stanchions.=20= I don't know of lift rings for the back. > > Personally, I think most modelers with welcome these new PRR units in=20= > N Scale even though there may be a little work involved, something we=20= > seem to get used to as KEYSTONE MODELERS. And plenty of modelers will be more than willing to run them "as is" as=20= they should otherwise be correct, offered in multiple road numbers, etc. > The PRRT&HS Modeling Committee will be working on the correct P&L=20 > diagrams with IMRwy. And I applaud InterMountain for listening! > > Again, Thanks to Marty for considering many Keystone Modelers request=20= > to do the F-units... We should also thank Brian Butcher and Doug=20 > Neslon for quiet canvasing... Faith moves mountains. F7's and FP7's anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:01:28 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3's Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry writes in part... "The second was my original plan of attack, but I have since backed off. The IM F3 unit will be available with either freight or passenger pilots. We all know our railroad of choice used the passenger pilots -- except the helper set. The FT shell has a freight pilot, but Charlie Vlk tells me it is NOT the same freight pilot later applied to the F3. So the nose-swap scenario requires a pilot change in all cases as well." Althought the R&R of scratch built 4-digit numbers boards seems easier to me the alternate solution is to buy the undec F-3 with the enclosed coupler pilot (aka "freight pilot")and remove the pilot at the same time you remove the cab section and make the conversion... again an alternative... Seems to me there would be a market for someone to look into and produce the replacement part (as well as other parts ) in Resin... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:41:41 GMT Subject: [PRR] NH EP-5 3rd Rail Shoes ? From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:41:41 GMT Subject: [PRR-FAX] NH EP-5 3rd Rail Shoes ? I know the EP-5 had 3rd rail shoes so it could run on the NYC undersided 3rd rail to GCT. But could it run on PRR/LIRR type of third rail? Also, I have heard PRR tested the EP-5, but it tended to overhead for the EP was built for only a 75 mile high speed run, vs. the longer PRR runs. True? Thanks, Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:09:30 -0500 From: dwp Subject: [PRR] Re: [NHRR] EP-5 Q's. Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Just got my K-Line EP-5, and I have two questions: > > 1. Could the 3rd rail shoes run on the PRR/LIRR system? as noted, the one was underrunning, the other overrruning. But. The contact planes were in nearly the same place, relative the runnig rails. I have seen it in print, by a participant, that inital testing of FL9 on LIRR was done 'using the backs of the shoes'. > > 2. Did PRR test one? Heard the unit overheated becauce the PRR had longer runs. Possible. I've seen no data. If so, simply reducing load would do. If there were need for it. with lotsa GG1 around.... best dwp True? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mail.comcast.net" Subject: [PRR] J-1 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:37:05 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would anyone know where I may obtain a N scale Key Imports Pennsylvania = J-1? I would like to include same in a project I am building. Plase = contact me off list at dahickey@comcast.net, thank you Daniel L Hickey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] E8A #5701 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:57:58 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Approximately how long after it was built did E8A 5701=20 have its second headlight before it was removed. I=20 recently obtained a picture of it on display with a GG1 at=20 Harrisburg. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <707D189F-2291-11D9-8324-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Vol. 4: Louisville to=20 Washington, D.C." by David Sweetland. "This, the most recent volume in the color pictorial series, showcases=20= the P Company's operations between Louisville and Washington D.C. from=20= the 1950's up to the Penn Central merger. You'll see the last vestiges=20= of the PRR's proud steam fleet, a plethora of first and second=20 generation diesel models, GG-1 and E44 electrics, and more. You even=20 get a bonus chapter that features a complete look at Alco and Baldwin=20 road switchers used by the PRR. 128 pages, 290 color photos, 8=BD"x 11",=20= hardcover. SRP $59.95." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <707D189F-2291-11D9-8324-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Vol. 4: Louisville to=20 Washington, D.C." by David Sweetland. "This, the most recent volume in the color pictorial series, showcases=20= the P Company's operations between Louisville and Washington D.C. from=20= the 1950's up to the Penn Central merger. You'll see the last vestiges=20= of the PRR's proud steam fleet, a plethora of first and second=20 generation diesel models, GG-1 and E44 electrics, and more. You even=20 get a bonus chapter that features a complete look at Alco and Baldwin=20 road switchers used by the PRR. 128 pages, 290 color photos, 8=BD"x 11",=20= hardcover. SRP $59.95." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Website Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:48:34 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to great effort by Steve Agostini the Society's website is back in operation. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: charliehoran@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:18:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: PRRT&HS Website That is great news. Thanks and congrats to Steve!!! ceh ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:48:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Website Thanks to great effort by Steve Agostini the Society's website is back in operation. Al Buchan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:34:27 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Earlier this week I ahd asked about the length oftime the=20 first E7A retained its second headlight. A picture of that=20 engine along with a wreck that occured south of Columbia,=20 PA on the C&PD are now posted on my website. www.mountvernonshops.com/PRRPix1.html Regards and Enjoy! John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:32:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] (ADV) Train Show MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, It is Fall and once again the Beaver County Model Railroad Club (western Pa.) will be holding their October Train Show and Sale. This year it is being held Sunday Oct 24 from 10am-3PM located at the Center Stage on Old Broadhead Road in Monaca, Pa,, near the Beaver Valley Mall and Kings Restaurant. Signs usually posted to guide you in. Model Trains of all scales available from local/distant dealers. Some prototype odds and ends showing up once and a while too. No Steeler game so stop on in.......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:41:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940337e1fa0d3971f3b76145257a43b3868350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.51 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first E-7's. 5701 was an E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD in Tuscan Red. In Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers there is a photo on pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone applied to a plate covering the second headlight. Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:56:00 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Steve, Sorry about that, i'm only using what little I have of=20 captions. It'll be changed by tonight. This weekend or sometime next week some mystery pictures=20 will be posted that I can't identify a location. That's=20 when the fun starts. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "STEPHEN HOXIE" wrote: Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first=20 E-7's. 5701 was an E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD=20 in Tuscan Red. In Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers=20 there is a photo on pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone=20 applied to a plate covering the second headlight. Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] From: Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:06:15 -0400 Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Its Friday so some models... Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:20:45 -0500 To: PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Happy Friday Gang, Bill suggested a Friday model post a few weeks ago, and in the past several weeks I finished up a stack of projects so here goes (all are in HO). First, for Virtual Modelers (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualmodelers/), there was the G30. This was a Tichy kit that I modified to have a correct lever style hand brake, national B1 trucks, and a corrugated brake step. I painted it with my polyscale FCC mix and lettered it with the Greg Komar dry transfer set for the G30. Since it was built in 1943 and I model 1944 I gave it a NEW weight stencil (as opposed to a reweigh), a light weathering, a fresh repack stencil, some chalk marks, a laser cut wood floor and some paint to represent the unpainted inside of the boards. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/G30done.JPG For PRRPro (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) I've been VERY busy . The latest project to finish up was the G22 gondola. For that I built two Westerfield cars, a G22 and a G22B with an HB1A container load. The G22 was equipped with Bowser's crown trucks, painted lettered and HEAVILY weathered to represent a car that has been well used. I added fresh reweigh and repack stencils and chalk marks. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/G22-4.JPG The G22B represents a car rebuilt for container service and 100 ton capacity, rather than the 70 ton G22. Since no 100 ton trucks are available, I used the Red Caboose 50 ton truck as a "stand in", since they have nearly the same side frame. The car and containers were painted, lettered and weathered. The containers show spillage of dry cement. The gon has new reweigh and repack stencils as well as chalk marks. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/G22B-3.JPG The previous PRRPro project was the X29 boxcar. I did several RC cars for that, but also wanted to do a couple of X28As and a resin X29. All three kits were from Sunshine, and represent some of the older kits (and are out of production). As such, building these cars was a bit more of a challenge that some of the more recent Sunshine kits. I used the RC trucks on all three cars. Since I was painting and lettering these cars, I used a new technique that I first tried on one of the RC X29s called shadowing, or pre-shadowing. I used a black Sharpie Brand fine point marker to highlight all of the panels before painting with FCC. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28CRECo.jpg Once painted with a couple of light coats of FCC, the black still shows. I then used Greg Martin's +orange, +red approach. To do this you line a Post-it brand note up with the seam and spray a slightly more red color onto it, allowing overspray to hit the car. Once that is dry you do it on the opposite side of the seam with a slightly more orange color. What results is an FCC to orange|seam|red to FCC to orange|seam|red to FCC to orange pattern. X28A #120713 was moderately weathered with new reweigh and repack data and chalk marks. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28A120713L.JPG X28A #122320 was weathered to look like a 2-3 year old repainted car, so the reweigh data was applied before weathering and a new repack was applied after. No chalk marks on this car. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28A122320L.JPG X29 #502795 represents a lightly to moderately weathered car with a very new reweigh and repack and some chalk marks. Note that visible patch panels on the Sunshine kit. These were molded on the sides. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X29R.JPG Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:42:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Its Friday so some models... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce, I like the idea of a Friday Photo day. I tried to get one going about 5 years ago. Everyone of your models you posted appear to be contest worthy!!! I have been lollygagging lately on model building due to a long term project I started last year. It will be included in the upcoming TKM but here is another sneak peek. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ATrainView2.JPG I have a long way to go on it but I am young, it will get finished some day........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:09:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Question concerning US&S CTC machines... Track schematic with occupancy lights was typically across the top. Below that were two rows of control switches. The top row was typically switch (turnout) controls. The bottom row was typically signal controls. Did it ever occur on the prototype that the number of turnout controls exceeded the required number of signal controls such that "some" of the turnout controls might have been on the lower row? The plates clearly indicate "switch" vs. "signal". Also, what is the role of the "Traffic" control? Here's an example... ROY, remoted from STATE... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/state_tour/ROY-Machine-close.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart info Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:49:13 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My brother taught high school with Ssteve Stewart for many years and gave me this additional information. Steve had a son who had some very serious heart problems a few years ago. He may not be with us at this point as I remember. His wife died two years ago and one of his key employees left about a year ago leaving him with doing three jobs. He had several offers most of which were to take it off his hands at distressed prices. All the employees were offered jobs with Bowser although it is doubtful many will take them as they are three hours away from Chalfont. Bowser treated him fairly and the jobs stay in the US. N. Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:49:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, I would say that the machine with the modle board was made to fit what was needed. The old CTC machine in ALTO at one time only had WORKS & ROSE on it as you use to be able to see around the corner of it. When ANTIS was added,another machine big enough to accomadate ANTIS along with ROSE & WORKS was acquired and hence not being able to see around its corned anymore. But one can never say never, as somewhere there is something to prove one wrong. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Jerry, I agree with Pat's "never say never" but US&S CTC machines were custom built to the railroad's specs. PRR would provide interlocking charts,track charts,signal charts, and most important: the size of the tower, to Union Switch & Signal. I'm not really sure what the "traffic levers" are for but I think it had something to do with bi-directional tracks,locking the signals clear in one direction. I was looking at my ALTO and SLOPE 1952 interlocking charts and they had traffic levers for track 3 to bring passenger trains in and out of the station. At that time track 3 was bi-directional. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:01:28 +0000 >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question >Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:37:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:00:08 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [68.160.175.241] at Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:00:17 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think, from some Rule 261 discussions we had on some other signal lists a couple of years ago, that to reverse trffic, it is necessary for the section of track, made of x number of blocks, to be unoccupied. Opposing signals are set at Stop, not S&P, as the block direction has to be absolute. I am not sure a Restricting could even be displayed into a Rule 261 track against the established current of traffic. For a definite answer with references, the Railway-Signaling list would be a good place to ask. In the days of PRR pre-CTC, individually manned towers, the tower at each end of a length of Rule 261 track had a traffic lever. Neglecting for this discussion the sequence for setting them, both had to be set for the desired direction of traffic. As an additional safety, there were often signals at the _leaving_ point of the interlockings, protecting entrance to the Rule 261 track. Normally a track beyond an interlocking was only protected by the appropriate home signal for that interlocking. Steve Bartlett E. Mike wrote: Traffic levers are for use in Rule 261 bi-directional territory for setting the flow of traffic of a piece of track. This would set opposing block signals to STOP and PROCEED and prevent conflicting routes from being set into that track on anything better than a RESTRICTING. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:38:22 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR Pro group's current project is P70 coaches and variants. The P70gs appeared with both wide and narrow windows and I had asked if there was any rhyme or reason as to which of the fleet had the wide vs. the narrow windows. Doc Freed posted the following, and I am reposting it here as it is valuable info and good to get into the PRR-talk archives for posterity. Thanks, Doc! On Oct 23, 2004, at 1:54 AM, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > P70gsR- Scheme 4 #4194-4243 Seats 68-Rotate-recline ACS > FOM-PRR 1908-13 as P70. 2DP5,2EP5,2EP6,2EP6A EM 1939 "Trail Blazer" > Reblt. 1939-Blt. w/ Picture windows & full skirts, removed late 1940's. > > P70gsR- Scheme 4 #4310-4359 Seats 68-Rotate-recline ACS FOM-PRR > 1909-16 as P70 2DP5,2EP5,2EP6,2EP6A EM 1939 "Trail Blazer" > Reblt. 1939-Blt. w/ Narrow square windows & full skirts, removed late > 1940's. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:34:15 +0000 From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PA numbers .... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:22:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello ,=20 I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website with pic's of PRR = PA's . I'm repainting a set ( ABA ) of Willaims PA's and although I have = the Microscale diagrams I wanted to check on the road numbers assigned . = Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PA numbers .... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:22:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello ,=20 I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website with pic's of PRR = PA's . I'm repainting a set ( ABA ) of Willaims PA's and although I have = the Microscale diagrams I wanted to check on the road numbers assigned . = Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:29:49 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John, Thanks for sharing the photos with the rest of us. Ken John Frantz wrote: > Steve, > > Sorry about that, i'm only using what little I have of captions. It'll > be changed by tonight. > > This weekend or sometime next week some mystery pictures will be > posted that I can't identify a location. That's when the fun starts. > > Regards, > John > > Designer, Modeler, Consultant > Mount Vernon Shops > York, PA > www.mountvernonshops.com > Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. > > > "STEPHEN HOXIE" wrote: > Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first E-7's. 5701 > was an > E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD in Tuscan > Red. In > Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers there is a > photo on > pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone applied to a plate > covering the second headlight. > > Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PA Antenna System Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:32:52 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can a listmember tell me what the distance between the two rows of = antenna supports is as measured from the carbody centerline for a PA = unit? I just pulled out a P2K PA to work on and judging from pictures = of actual units and Overland models, the steam generator exhaust stack on the P2K model appears to interfere with = where the last mast should be on the fireman's side of the unit. Any = info. that someone can provide who has gone through installing the = antennas on a P2K model would be appreciated. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:38:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart info X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm and all concerned, Steve asked me to pass this along regarding the Stewart Sale. Health had nothing to do with the sale. Steve's son is doing fine. The sale was purely a business decision . He spent 20 years building trains for us after spending 30 years teaching. Thats enough time working for anybody. ------------------Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:09:35 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart info X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Amen, Ken. I say thanks to Steve, and have fun in retirement. If his abilities at model railroad building rival his quality and attention to detail shown in his product line through the years, that would be one layout I'd pay to see! Let us push the new owners to make every effort to build and market products that live up to Steve's highest standards. owen thorne KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: >Norm and all concerned, Steve asked me to pass this along regarding the >Stewart Sale. Health had nothing to do with the sale. Steve's son is doing fine. >The sale was purely a business decision . He spent 20 years building trains for >us after spending 30 years teaching. Thats enough time working for anybody. >------------------Ken McCorry > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms/Appleton/Fairhill Elkton, Cecil County Maryland 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:25:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Antenna System X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/23/2004 3:37:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: Can a listmember tell me what the distance between the two rows of antenna supports is as measured from the carbody centerline for a PA unit? I just pulled out a P2K PA to work on and judging from pictures of actual units and Overland models, the steam generator exhaust stack on the P2K model appears to interfere with where the last mast should be on the fireman's side of the unit. This should tell you something Frank, the Overland units have the spacing too close together ... the give away is that fact that you need an exhaust deflector attached to the steam generator exhaust stack and to the conduit above. Can you get a copy of my article in Mainline Modeler and use the drawings I did for the article as the basis for your model. Any info. that someone can provide who has gone through installing the antennas on a P2K model would be appreciated. Frank Brua Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:02:29 -0400 From: Martin Harriss Subject: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Subject: US&S CTC Machine Question > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:09:09 -0400 > > Question concerning US&S CTC machines... > > Track schematic with occupancy lights was typically across the top. > Below that were two rows of control switches. The top row was typically > switch (turnout) controls. The bottom row was typically signal controls. > > Did it ever occur on the prototype that the number of turnout controls > exceeded the required number of signal controls such that "some" of the > turnout controls might have been on the lower row? The plates clearly > indicate "switch" vs. "signal". Actually, I think the reverse was the more frequent case - more signals than switches than signals. The solution was an additional vertical column with only one lever present. Part of the reason for this was how the CTC system worked - each switch/signal lever pair corresponded to one field location. So if you needed an extra signal, say, you would have to provide an addition field unit, but without using the switch circuitry. Pressing the code button underneath the signal lever would start the transmittion of the code signal to the field location. Note that the PRR had a number of US&S panels that looked like CTC (and presumably used the same lever components) but were actually direct wired relay interlockings (no code button.) PENN and THORN come to mind. Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:18:41 +0000 From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:32:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Disposition-Notification-To: "Sam Vastano" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2004 11:31:00.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A731470:01C4BA86] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:38:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041025123242.54757.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2004 12:37:02.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[54118320:01C4BA8F] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank Bill, I didn't think they had them but I was not positive... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Sam... AS they say the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. But the answer to yours is simply no. The Pennsy never bought the SD24. Don't believe everything that IHC (or other manufacturers) say. ===== Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:38:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041025123242.54757.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2004 12:37:02.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[54118320:01C4BA8F] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank Bill, I didn't think they had them but I was not positive... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Sam... AS they say the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. But the answer to yours is simply no. The Pennsy never bought the SD24. Don't believe everything that IHC (or other manufacturers) say. ===== Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:59:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] November 12-14 Multi-Layout Tour Slated From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <74493860-2696-11D9-BA2E-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR), an co-operative of model railroad layout owners in the southcentral Pennsylvania area, are pleased to announce their "First Annual SVMR Layout Tour" over the weekend of November 12-14. This first tour will feature 8 layouts over three days, most of them "operating" layouts. The public is invited to attend and children are welcome, provided that parents maintain a watchful eye over them. After all, November is Model Railroading Month! So if you are in the York-Lancaster-Harrisburg area, please look us up and consider attending one or more of the layouts on the tour. You can visit our web site where you can learn more about which layouts are open, maps to them, and more details about the layouts themselves. The site address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/ . Thank you... and we hope to meet some of you! (List relevance: Layouts on tour include PRR, Reading, and Conrail roads modeled; and many feature car cards, JMRI, Digitrax, and Soundtraxx systems.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? From: Paul_S_Kurutz@dom.com Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:03:46 -0400 From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:41:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.24.0 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Got this e-mail from my website.. Can anyone help Mirza out? I'm guessing they'd be quartered but don't really know... Please make sure you include mirza in any replies... Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Mirza Kolakovic [mailto:mirzaking@peoplepc.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:22 PM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Hi Rob, I need your help with facts on S2 #6200 locomotive. I am trying to find out if drive wheels on both sides were in faze or shifted quarter of a turn? I have Lionel locomotive 2020 that I took apart for cleaning. Before I put it together I want to know how originally wheels were placed. My friend is telling me that true steamers (with cylinders) had quarter of a turn difference between wheels on each side but this being a turbine locomotive this was not the case. In other words, when lefts side wheels are at TDC - right side wheels are also at TDC. Is this right? I tried searching for pictures of both sides taken at the same time on the same S2 but no success. Could you help me with this. Its has been bothering me a lot for some reason. Thanks. Mirza Kolakovic Detroit, MI USA ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:41:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.24.0 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Got this e-mail from my website.. Can anyone help Mirza out? I'm guessing they'd be quartered but don't really know... Please make sure you include mirza in any replies... Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Mirza Kolakovic [mailto:mirzaking@peoplepc.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:22 PM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Hi Rob, I need your help with facts on S2 #6200 locomotive. I am trying to find out if drive wheels on both sides were in faze or shifted quarter of a turn? I have Lionel locomotive 2020 that I took apart for cleaning. Before I put it together I want to know how originally wheels were placed. My friend is telling me that true steamers (with cylinders) had quarter of a turn difference between wheels on each side but this being a turbine locomotive this was not the case. In other words, when lefts side wheels are at TDC - right side wheels are also at TDC. Is this right? I tried searching for pictures of both sides taken at the same time on the same S2 but no success. Could you help me with this. Its has been bothering me a lot for some reason. Thanks. Mirza Kolakovic Detroit, MI USA ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kaczar, Keneth" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Antenna System Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:45:27 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:05 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F83AF@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted thread-index: AcS4PTnIXJ9d6liTQjaUpWsG1jDJxAChM8Ew From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "STEPHEN HOXIE" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 5770 and 5771 had MARS headlights. 5700-5701 had wig wag (i.e. sideways only) headlights. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of STEPHEN HOXIE Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:41 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first E-7's. 5701 was an E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD in Tuscan Red. In Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers there is a photo on pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone applied to a plate covering the second headlight. Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:46:47 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 25, 2004, at 2:22 PM, pennsynut@isp.com wrote: > So, it appears to me that Mirza's last question remains unanswered.=A0=20= > Were the drivers on one side TDC and the other side ??????=A0 I can=20 > vision both sides being the same - TDC - and also vision one side=20 > being TDC and the other BDC. > > Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 Although I'm sure Mirza knew what I meant, I'll clarify my statement,=20 for those who didn't make the logical leap . Yes, it appears the=20= drivers were aligned TDC/TDC or BDC/BDC if she stopped rods down. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:51:26 +0000 From: Michael E Allen Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:44:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:44:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-7 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 3:5:918976920 X-MAIL-INFO:25332a33efc3bbbe3fdaafdfaf2a175e979f9eaf979a2a9a2aab2a9a1a97d76a9adb8b4f5b6acbfa678bc317574fae1e0b0e6a8ea37f9ed76e57e35f7aeb5a7b670a574e13be77be13f79fafdfd3af1a9ad32b433b033b031f033b3e434abb3bfbbe7e33bb3fba6abeef2a3a8ea3c7a38e279e0fd7570f7a7ff31bfeebb37f67b30a2b7f6f676f6fc70b1ec3ce4b3e8f43a73b432e3fa7ba3bba Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:25:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <35824D3A25D22944B9B21E49AF10FF4C06C5A0@server1.mstprod.local> Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 096DB2D1-865F46D2-A30C27B6-C1D668B4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Howdy Sam: The Pennsy had two SD7 (ERS15ax), 25 SD9(ERS15a) and then no more SD's until the SD35s of 1965. The Pennsy did not have any EMD model FT, F2, EA, E2, E3, BL1/2, E6, F9, FP9, E9,GP18, GP20 and the SD24 and the DD40 (never built in 1:1 scale) just incase you run across some old Athearn units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:28:05 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Antenna System Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com >In a message dated 10/23/2004 3:37:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, >parkvarieties@provide.net writes: >Can a listmember tell me what the distance between the two rows of >antenna supports is as measured from the carbody centerline for a >PA unit?   ......... > >Can you get a copy of my article in Mainline Modeler and use the >drawings I did for the article as the basis for your model. > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- PA1 articles in Mainline Modeler, December 2000 & January 2001 Don Luke Lower Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:26:11 -0400 To: Michael E Allen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 25, 2004, at 10:44 PM, Michael E Allen wrote: > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go > to > RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php? > topic_view=threads&p=2057&t > =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. > Bennet, Eric - Well done. Excellent, gentlemen! And for those that didn't know... Bennett is having an op session this weekend... Harrisburg to Philadelphia to Perryville to Columbia to Enola to Rockville Bridge to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:48:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Disposition-Notification-To: "Sam Vastano" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2004 11:46:00.0682 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D645CA0:01C4BB51] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks Wayne, How about the GP9 that is on the curve? How many of those did the PRR have? When would they have been purchased? Sam V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:26 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Howdy Sam: The Pennsy had two SD7 (ERS15ax), 25 SD9(ERS15a) and then no more SD's until the SD35s of 1965. The Pennsy did not have any EMD model FT, F2, EA, E2, E3, BL1/2, E6, F9, FP9, E9,GP18, GP20 and the SD24 and the DD40 (never built in 1:1 scale) just incase you run across some old Athearn units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:15:30 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F83C2@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] SD 24??? Thread-Index: AcS7UhTQ3misyiayR+e9xzWdtafcdAABYn1Q From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , "Wayne S. Betty" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com PRR had 314 GP-9s total. All maintained under one roof, at Enola Diesel Shop. They were purchased in several groups, the last being delivered in the fall of 1960. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:48 AM To: 'Wayne S. Betty'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Thanks Wayne, How about the GP9 that is on the curve? How many of those did the PRR have? When would they have been purchased? Sam V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:26 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Howdy Sam: The Pennsy had two SD7 (ERS15ax), 25 SD9(ERS15a) and then no more SD's until the SD35s of 1965. The Pennsy did not have any EMD model FT, F2, EA, E2, E3, BL1/2, E6, F9, FP9, E9,GP18, GP20 and the SD24 and the DD40 (never built in 1:1 scale) just incase you run across some old Athearn units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:29:13 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Tom Hayden wrote: "I have not yet looked at the photo Ben refers to, but if it shows what he says, then I am wrong. But still very puzzled." Again, please see page 26 of the Fall 2004 issue of Classic Trains for a photo of one of No. 6200's two driving axles before you call me a liar. It clearly shows no quartering. Additionally, you're making the incorrect assumption that 6200's turbine is geared to only one driver. It's actually geared to both the second and the third drivers. Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:22:29 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Michael E Allen Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:29:13 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcS7Bp6zd3ctLTPMTPSQon+hihKvOQAWTn7A In-reply-to: <20041025.224441.2036.0.ptrmgtsvc@juno.com> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Michael E Allen Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:49:27 -0500 To: Tom Hayden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 26, 2004, at 8:22 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > This is stunning news to me. You may recall a similar discussion last > Jan/Feb about side-rod electrics. I think the conclusion was that even > locos without reciprocating power, but still side rods, would require > quartering. The big difference is that the S2 was direct (gear) driven, just like our models , while the electrics were "jack shaft" which converted the rotational energy of the motor to a rod and thence to the wheels. While this might not have had the same dynamic force issues as a steamer, it was still an issue as the back and forth motion of the rods had to be converted to the circular motion of the drivers. Hence the electrics needed quartering for balancing dynamic forces. > But it also seems to me that, at best, the operating leverage of the > side rods against the other three axles by the turbine driven axle is > very small and could easily result in a stall. Because the powered axle is driven in rotation by the gear, the rods transmit whatever the force applied to them is. If they are in the 3:00 position and the loco starts forward, the driven axle applies force to all other axles with a DOWNWARD vector, orthogonal (or normal) to the rods. As the driver rotates, the force vector also rotates until at the 6:00 position it is parallel to the rods. The force vector is basically the same regardless of the position of the driver and rods. There is a small component of gravity (ie the down vector is bigger and the up vector is smaller) due to the weight of the rods, but it was negligible compared to the total. It is an interesting question as to why the S2 would NOT be quartered. What could quartering hurt? Why not have it the same way as every other loco? > > Lastly, as a suggestion to Mirza, regardless of the actual prototype > configuration, he may wish to quarter his Lionel model, UNLESS all > the driving wheels are actually gear driven. It's been a while since I > looked at Lionel mechanisms, but if the model relies on the side rods > for actual propulsion, then he definitely will have the "hang up" > problems I described above, because the model will not have such tight > bearings on the side rods. Not a problem, even if only one axle is gear driven. See above. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:30:45 -0400 Subject: Ballast Cleaner, Cable? Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump Control Ernie, Could you explain reeling the cable in and out to propel the ballast cleaner prior to the use of a diesel? I was one year old at the time and I don't really remember it (but that's probably because we lived on the Pere Marquette). Thanks Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:58:47 -0400 "Ernest L. Clausing" writes: > > Listmembers > > The very first experiment of having diesels propel the Brownhoist ballast cleaner was in 1953-1954 at Olean, NY, while I was track supervisor there. It was an instant success so it became stadanrd procedure. Production increased by one-third to one-half because the cable did not have to be unreeled and reeled back in to propel the cleaner. The only problem was maintaining a uniform speed. Hump control solved that problm. > > Ernie Clausing > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Buchan" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:38 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump Control > > > > > > > > Units with hump control (not RSD5's) were also assigned to the Brownhoist ballast cleaners. > > > > Al Buchan ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I was of the belief that the fluting was a skin shot welded to the frame members. The re-skinning is discussed briefly by Eric on RYPN. the means of joining the panels is apparently proprietary. MEA On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 "Andy Miller" writes: > > > How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train > too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Michael E Allen > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennett, Eric - Well done. > > Michael E. Allen > PTR Management Services > Rocky Hill, NJ Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I was of the belief that the fluting was a skin shot welded to the frame members. The re-skinning is discussed briefly by Eric on RYPN. the means of joining the panels is apparently proprietary. MEA On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 "Andy Miller" writes: > > > How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train > too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Michael E Allen > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennett, Eric - Well done. > > Michael E. Allen > PTR Management Services > Rocky Hill, NJ Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5,7-9,11-24,26,29,31-39 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 15:7:3812497009 X-MAIL-INFO:48914d6908c5f8f1f19971a15d9c0c688ca1c1551955ece1e9b10d017d007d19350821e5057d210c190c196d190c2d2195810c293d583981a54c613de1355c58bc31b991819d7cdc0595ad5c1c75a9d18c3861985c68fcb1ccb1fc79e57d00657d2d0c65714d5db55db5f1b55d694d41e95d15b1d555e90d0981b1ec198d9d7ced7c9d280511955c11a9dc99d9d8d1dddc61dd9871dc48614848edb931e1a88969594de85d4dc50de8095d09 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was of the belief that the fluting was a skin shot welded to the frame members. The re-skinning is discussed briefly by Eric on RYPN. the means of joining the panels is apparently proprietary. MEA On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 "Andy Miller" writes: > > > How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train > too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Michael E Allen > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennett, Eric - Well done. > > Michael E. Allen > PTR Management Services > Rocky Hill, NJ Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:30:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ballast Cleaner, Cable? Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-12,14-17,24-37,39-40 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 16:8:3845436373 X-MAIL-INFO:4f50992d248561a431c465d13554c1fdf46db921304554b5a544d53d84cd3d10108464cd646471149d380d59c0e0a0708da0b0b070498d49 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ernie, Could you explain reeling the cable in and out to propel the ballast cleaner prior to the use of a diesel? I was one year old at the time and I don't really remember it (but that's probably because we lived on the Pere Marquette). Thanks Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:58:47 -0400 "Ernest L. Clausing" writes: > > Listmembers > > The very first experiment of having diesels propel the Brownhoist ballast cleaner was in 1953-1954 at Olean, NY, while I was track supervisor there. It was an instant success so it became stadanrd procedure. Production increased by one-third to one-half because the cable did not have to be unreeled and reeled back in to propel the cleaner. The only problem was maintaining a uniform speed. Hump control solved that problm. > > Ernie Clausing > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Buchan" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:38 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump Control > > > > > > > > Units with hump control (not RSD5's) were also assigned to the Brownhoist ballast cleaners. > > > > Al Buchan ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:59:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy, Juniata Terminal Co. has found a way to panel over the=20 fluting. Its still all there underneath the paneling. The=20 same was done with the Warrior Ridge. The nice thing about=20 the way the panel is applied it's the length of the body.=20 Bennet, Eric and crew have added another fine car to the=20 fleet. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Andy Miller" wrote: How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I=20 thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B=20 circus train too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. regards, =20 Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:21:38 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:33:14 -0400 Message-Id: <20041026173314.OTHB23597.de-fe02.dejazzd.com@de-fe02> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Any chance of this car being on the Susquehanna Ltd. this Saturday? J. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:42:13 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:46:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Isn't that also the route of the Susquehanna Limited NRHS excursion Sat. 10/30? Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "Michael E Allen" Cc: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > On Oct 25, 2004, at 10:44 PM, Michael E Allen wrote: > > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go > > to > > RYPN at > > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php? > > topic_view=threads&p=2057&t > > =635 > > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. > > Bennet, Eric - Well done. > > Excellent, gentlemen! > > And for those that didn't know... Bennett is having an op session this > weekend... Harrisburg to Philadelphia to Perryville to Columbia to > Enola to Rockville Bridge to Harrisburg. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:51:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 26, 2004, at 03:46 PM, William Bigler wrote: > Isn't that also the route of the Susquehanna Limited NRHS excursion > Sat. > 10/30? Well I guess that went right over your head, didn't it!!! Bennett... op session... ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "William Bigler" , "Michael E Allen" , "PRR-talk" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:21:21 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 26, 2004, at 2:51 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, October 26, 2004, at 03:46 PM, William Bigler wrote: > >> Isn't that also the route of the Susquehanna Limited NRHS excursion >> Sat. >> 10/30? > > Well I guess that went right over your head, didn't it!!! > > Bennett... op session... ;-) 12" to foot scale... ;^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] scale houses Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:29:52 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Were scales houses something the manufacturer supplied with the scale or was there a PRR standard design? Does anyone know of any references in particular Margie yard in Philadelphia? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] scale houses Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:06:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <102620042029.18197.417EB3BF000716DC0000471521602807419D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.26.2 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm, The PRR did have a standard scale house. The standards drawing is on my website. Go to http://prr.railfan.net/standards The direct link to the plan is http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:30 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] scale houses Were scales houses something the manufacturer supplied with the scale or was there a PRR standard design? Does anyone know of any references in particular Margie yard in Philadelphia? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:56:26 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: RE: [PRR] scale houses From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:16:39 GMT Subject: [PRR] Lionel Post-War "S2" Turbines From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] scale houses Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:03:01 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm and Rob, Yes, the PRR ahd a standard, but that doesn't mean it was=20 always used.=20 At Poorhouse Yard in York, used by the PRR's Frederick=20 Branch there is a brick scale house, which i intend to=20 model sometime. Unfortunately at this time I don't have=20 pictures availible. The structure is still in use by the=20 Yorkrail divison of Genesee & Wymoming, Nee-Ma&Pa, Ex-PRR. I know, there are always exceptions to the rule, but its=20 worth stating.=20 Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Rob Schoenberg" wrote: Norm, The PRR did have a standard scale house. The standards=20 drawing is on my website. Go to http://prr.railfan.net/standards The direct link to the plan is http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=3D58460-B Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On=20 Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:30 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] scale houses Were scales houses something the manufacturer supplied=20 with the scale or was there a PRR standard design? Does anyone know of any=20 references in particular Margie yard in Philadelphia? Thank you, Norm=20 Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:09:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone heard anything official on this engine? I would think in the next coupkle weeks it should ship. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] scale houses Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I believe the building at the far right in this photo of the PRR's Erie lake yards is the scale house: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/lake_1.jpg Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: "Rob Schoenberg" ; Cc: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] scale houses Norm and Rob, Yes, the PRR ahd a standard, but that doesn't mean it was always used. At Poorhouse Yard in York, used by the PRR's Frederick Branch there is a brick scale house, which i intend to model sometime. Unfortunately at this time I don't have pictures availible. The structure is still in use by the Yorkrail divison of Genesee & Wymoming, Nee-Ma&Pa, Ex-PRR. I know, there are always exceptions to the rule, but its worth stating. Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:43:25 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Cc: "PRR-Talk" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:30:26 -0500 To: Tom Hayden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > Can we all agree now that any side rod locomotive requires quartered > drivers? NO!!!!!! We can agree that the S2 and DD1 were quartered, but the while the DD1 required it due to the reciprocating machinery, the same cannot be said for the S2. I am putting the finishing touches on a LONG post that I hope will settle this issue for you. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:45:54 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:53:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <200C33D0-282D-11D9-9A6C-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Thread-index: AcS8O8sdrDq9EQGbRO23iRdbZB3xNwAAMokg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce, I have to cast my lot with the quartered folks. Whether the drivers are driven by a reciprocating drive rod on the main driver, or by a worm and gear on the main driver, the other drivers all see a reciprocating force from the side rods. And unless the design allows for the force to be transmitted by a bending moment through the side rods, then they will stall at full forward or full aft unless they are quartered. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:30 AM To: Tom Hayden Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > Can we all agree now that any side rod locomotive requires quartered > drivers? NO!!!!!! We can agree that the S2 and DD1 were quartered, but the while the DD1 required it due to the reciprocating machinery, the same cannot be said for the S2. I am putting the finishing touches on a LONG post that I hope will settle this issue for you. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:57:15 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yes, geographic distribution accounts for a good part of it, but there = are quite a few of us interested in the more remote areas of the Pennsy. = One example is Jerry Shickler with his excellent website on the P&E, = E&P, & Chatauqua Branches, which contains a wealth of information: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm There are quite a few other such websites - they just take a bit of = digging to unearth. And do bookmark them as soon as you find them - = they somehow defy finding a second time.=20 In addition to a poll about geographic interests, I'd like to see = someone assemble and list websites for the lesser known areas such as = Jerry's. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII (How's that for remote?!!) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc.=20 To: 'PRR@yahoogroups.com'=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Charles; Over the years I have also noted that there are many areas of the = former PRR that have had virtually no research done on them, and for which there = has apparently also been very little interest. I noted with interest that = the areas of the PRR for which the most knowledge is exhibited tend to be = those areas that had the highest population densities and/or most closely = related to the big mainlines (esp. Middle Division main). Even folks = interested in the Fort Wayne, Panhandle, and other large mainline operations bemoan = a lack of interest and knowledge in those areas. Coming from Pittsburgh, I = have continually been amazed at the lack of photographic or other = information on large branches around there like the Allegheny Valley or Monongahela = Branch, while every other person seems to have taken photos of Pennsylvania = Station and the yard at 28th Street. In years of paging through the CT1000, = and all of the interesting branches, sidings, and industries it contains, = there has not been one word uttered on any of the lists, in books, or magazines, = on over 90% of the entries (Branch, siding, or industry) contained = therein. Many years ago, I made up my mind that if I were to get smart on = certain aspects of the area in which I am interested, its operations, and its history, that I would likely have to do it on my own. The fact that = twenty years of research lead me to two other individuals interested in this = same area has been a big surprise. But folks interested in many branches = of the PRR have had to go it alone. It is not that someone is hiding all the information. It is generally that it does not exist in documented = form. For instance, I and my friends would welcome even ONE train consist = sheet, switch list, or "left-right" report from ANY of that Branch, for just = about any time. We probably will never see one. =20 You have to remember that motive power, ops, and equipment are = generally commonalities that applied most everywhere, while area-specific = information is still very much an individual interest. And it is the lack of one = person being interested enough to do the research that leads to a lack of information. One of my friends said it best. One day we were talking about one of = my interest areas and he said, "You know more about (a small branch near Pittsburgh) than any person alive." I find that sad, but probably = true. And, realistically, if I don't document what I know, that "history" or knowledge base will probably disappear with me. Elden Gatwood -----Original Message----- From: Charles Woolever [mailto:yahoo@existingstations.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:31 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members A recent question posted by me got me reflecting on the geographical knowledge of this group. It appears to me (and none of this should be taken in a negative way at all!) that the general combined geographical knowledge of this group is aimed at the PRR through Pennsylvania, Lines West, with maybe the electrified zone from NY to Washington. Questions posed by members about locations outside the above areas (say north of Olean) and other branches in other states may generate one or two responses and many times no response at all. Motive power, passenger ops, PRR trivia, books and documents, and freight car questions are almost always answered. Is it a lack of interest (Buffalo, Rochester, and Chautauqua Lines in NY State, to name a few) or a lack of information that fuels the lack of answers to these questions? Some questions posed here will result in a flurry of answers often with back and forths in the smallest details (F-units for example). Yet, if someone posts about "East Sticks Siding" it would appear that people don't even care about knowing an answer. Maybe a poll by the moderator about what geographical area your knowledge is in (not where you interest is) would be good start. Just curious, Charles Woolever ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:02:59 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well, yes & no, with respect to our interest being depending on our home = during our formative years - during my formative years I lived a block = from a branch line of the enemy (NYC). In fact, I never lived anywhere = near the Pennsy. Fortunately, I saw the light! Bill Bigler =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Maybe a poll by the moderator about what geographical area your > knowledge is in (not where you interest is) would be good start. Charles, your question, though no doubt a serious one, is based on an=20 implicit notion that I think is probably flawed. Most "PRR" people = have an=20 interest, either general or specific, that is only "geographic" in = nature by virtue=20 of some sort of coincidence. To the extent that anyone is interested in = the=20 geographical aspects of the railroad, even that is normally the simple=20 "by-product" of their home during their formative years. People tend to = relate to what=20 they know about and wish to know much more about as they grow older. Of course, many have a focused interest in equipment or traffic flow, or = whatever, all of which were affected by geographical considerations but, = here=20 again the "geography" is likely, only a "footnote" of their true = interest. Assuming you accept my thesis, as above, the concentrated population = centers=20 (typically found nearby "main lines"), is most likely to have fostered=20 interest in RRing in a far larger number of people than the outlining = areas, simply=20 due to the population numbers in such areas. In otherwords, far more = people=20 are likely to have developed some "in-depth" interest/knowledge of the = major=20 areas of RR activity, than in the "branchline" areas. And, over the = years, FAR=20 more has been published about "mainline" RR activity than (generally) = any of=20 the outlying areas. The bottom line is simply that "not very many people have a lot of = knowledge=20 about MOST branch lines". Many of those that do, might NOT be = registered with=20 our group. The source of information, such as you address is not = plentiful,=20 as a rule. Our group has no monopoly or specific concentrated knowledge = of=20 geographical areas of interest, except as we've encountered as a direct = result=20 of our own evolved interest and that, generally, a direct function of = our=20 "roots" as children. Most commercial publications, over the years, = tended to=20 concentrate articles on subjects (and geography) of greatest interest to = their=20 subscribers. Outlying areas didn't have a great number of fans with a = specific=20 interest in a given area. Today, there is a scarcity of information = about them,=20 in general. I believe, your "point" is somewhat underscored by the popularity of the = book=20 SET UP RUNNING. It focuses on a general geographic area radiating out = from=20 Williamsport,Pa. It is a GREAT book. If you don't have it, I HIGHLY=20 recommend it to you. I'm certain others will weigh in and "second" my = recommendation. ceh=20 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:09:23 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Having run a gas compression plant that had over fifty corliss steam engines pumping CO2 gas I disagree. The quartering of the drivers has nothing to do with the stalling. The stalling is a result of piston travel and lock up not the drivers. because the Corliss engines were single cylinder they would almost always stop where the sides of the cylinder were in balance and wouldn't start when the steam was turned back on. the outer edge of the fly wheel had two inch square hole in it about every foot so a pry bar could be inserted and manually move the flywheel and piston to where the steam could start working. The S2 could be either way. In my unknoweldgable opinion since all other engines were quartered it would be the tendency of shop people to make it the same as the others. Frankly while somewhat interesting the whole discussion is one of those anomolies of minutia that unless somebody elses eyes are in their head different from mine you couldn't see both sides of an engine a -------------- Original message from "Andy Miller" : -------------- > Bruce, > I have to cast my lot with the quartered folks. Whether the drivers are > driven by a reciprocating drive rod on the main driver, or by a worm and > gear on the main driver, the other drivers all see a reciprocating force > from the side rods. And unless the design allows for the force to be > transmitted by a bending moment through the side rods, then they will stall > at full forward or full aft unless they are quartered. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:30 AM > To: Tom Hayden > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive > > On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > > Can we all agree now that any side rod locomotive requires quartered > > drivers? > > NO!!!!!! We can agree that the S2 and DD1 were quartered, but the while > the DD1 required it due to the reciprocating machinery, the same cannot be > said for the S2. I am putting the finishing touches on a LONG post that I > hope will settle this issue for you. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:19:56 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another point is that even branch lines of the PRR were bigger, some = much bigger, than some first class RR's. A case close to my own heart = is the Buffalo Line. Bill Bigler ----- Original Message -----=20 From: cr6485=20 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Yes, but even many areas peripheral to the big mainlines like the=20 Middle Division are overlooked. A great example is my work on the=20 Bedford Secondary; even those that were here tended to overlook the=20 local PRR branchlines. It was much easier to watch trains on the=20 mainline rather than search out operations on a branch. =20 This isn't a criticism, it's more a reflection of how a railfanning=20 philosophy has changed over the years! I've been very surprised to see how little photography and research=20 has been done on the Bedford, Cresson, and Black Lick secondaries. (Did I ever mention that if anyone has pictures of the C&I/PRR=20 interchange in Nanty Glo, the PRR's Coal Pit Run branch, or anything=20 in Vintondale, Bedford, Claysburg, and on and on and on... gimme a=20 shout. ;-)) Keith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to everyone, By chance, does anyone know when the PRR E's with special will be going through Perryville, MD on Sat? Thank you! Steve panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to everyone, By chance, does anyone know when the PRR E's with special will be going through Perryville, MD on Sat? Thank you! Steve panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk LIST From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:15:45 -0500 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Okay Folks, It is clear to me that a number of you are struggling with some of the basic issues involved with balancing and quartering of drivers on some steam and electric locomotives. I hope that the following will help y'all to better understand the forces involved and how "balancing" was (or was not) achieved. First, lets take a driver (w/o counter weight or rods). It starts out "perfectly balanced". If you add a gear and a traction motor, it stays perfectly balanced... like the O1, P5... etc. Now, add a side rod to the driver. This rod has mass. In order to balance the mass of the rod and the pin, we add a counterweight to the opposite side of the driver. It is possible to again achieve "perfect balance". If we look at a set of 4 drivers, the mass of 1/4 of the rod is balanced on each driver, and the set of 4 rolls smoothly with no tendency to stop in any given position and no difficulty in starting it from any position. The position of the rods on one side is irrelevant to the position of the rods on the other. If, like the electrics above, we add a motor to one or two axles, this provides even constant power to ALL wheels. The geared wheels are obvious, but they also translate the force to the connected wheels, REGARDLESS of the position of the wheel. There is NO stall point! For those of you who continue to refuse to believe this, please diagram the force vectors. My better half (the physicist of the family) will be happy to explain further. Thus, for a locomotive like the S2, there is NO REQUIREMENT of quartering (and no disadvantage either). Now, in the case of 2 or 3 cylinder reciprocating steam engine we add the piston rods. The driver that this rod connects to now has to have a bigger counterweight, to balance both the side rod and the piston rod. It is possible to achieve nearly "perfect balance" as long as no power is applied through the piston. HOWEVER, as soon as power is applied, an additional force vector is produced in the direction of the stroke. This is called "dynamic augmentation" and immediately throws the whole balance thing out the window! The force is NOT evenly applied, like with a geared locomotive, but is pulsatile. Most locomotive drivers were NOT perfectly balanced at rest, but rather were balanced for some compromise at a target working speed. As a consequence, unlike your car tires, the locomotive drivers would be out of balance by some degree at any other speed. Examples abound, such as accounts of the horrific pounding of the I1s at anything over 40 mph. Quartering was used for two reasons on reciprocating steam locomotives. First, because perfect balance was nearly impossible to achieve, quartering causes the out of balance condition on alternating sides of the locomotive every 1/4 rotation, rather than having the entire locomotive bounce every half rotation. Second, with a reciprocating steam locomotive, it IS possible to have a stall point. That is the point where the piston rod is perfectly aligned with the axle center and drive pin. Quartering prevents this from happening to both piston rods at once. Note that the stall point ONLY applies to the piston rods and NOT to the side rods. In thinking about the DD1, I'm going to have to revise what I posted earlier today. The jackshaft electric presents a unique problem. The jackshaft on the DD1 and L5 is continuous with the side rod and therefore essentially recreates the situations with the geared side rod locomotive. However, unlike the geared locomotive, such as the S2, the motor is at the end of the rod, which presents an intuitive problem of how the rod acts as a lever to provide continuous power in a circular fashion, but it does because the axles of the flywheel and drivers are fixed in the frame. Thus, theoretically, there should be no need for quartering in a jackshaft electric. IF there is any roughness or binding in the drivers of a model it is due either to misalignment (or misquartering) between the drivers or unequal length side rods. The effect is MAGNIFIED on models because of the overall smaller size with similar tolerances to the prototype. "Ye canna change the laws of physics, Captain" - Montgomery Scott Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] O scale PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings. Are there any O scale PRR people on this list? Im thinking of going to O scale but it seems like theres not to much available in pennsy. Are there any O scale PRR chat lists? thanks-Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] O scale PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings. Are there any O scale PRR people on this list? Im thinking of going to O scale but it seems like theres not to much available in pennsy. Are there any O scale PRR chat lists? thanks-Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:21:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Fwd: BLI News... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6ED2C995-284D-11D9-BACA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... (prices shown are BLI's suggested retail) Begin forwarded message: > PRR K4s will be coming within 2 weeks... > > The PRR K4s will be arriving stateside with and without sound within=20= > two weeks!=A0 There is still time to order your K4.=A0 Contact your = dealer=20 > now so they can reserve yours today! > > 335 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #646 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox = front,=20 > short lettering, HO $299.99 > 336 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #1453 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox=20 > front, short lettering, HO $299.99 > 337 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front,=20 > unlettered, HO $299.99 > 338 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #5451 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox=20 > front, HO $299.99 > 339 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #7279 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox=20 > front, HO $299.99 > 340 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20 > unlettered, HO$299.99 > 341 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #5418 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20= > HO $299.99 > 342 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #1361 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20= > HO $299.99 > 343 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20 > unlettered, HO$299.99 > > 321 > =A0PRR K-4s #646 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO $450 > 322 > =A0PRR K-4s #1453 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO $450 > 323 > =A0PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, unlettered, = HO=20 > $450 > 324 > =A0PRR K-4s #5451 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO = $450 > 325 > =A0PRR K-4s #7279 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO = $450 > 326 > =A0PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered,=20= > HO=A0$450 > 327 > =A0PRR K-4s #5418 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO $450 > 328 > =A0PRR K-4s #1361 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO $450 > 329 > =A0PRR K-4s w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered, HO=20= > $450 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:12:03 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jim & list, I am (still) looking for information on the Buffalo line from = Williamsport (Allens) through Keating Summit (KS), especially pictures = and most especially (salivate!), movies! Particular interests are = Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. Seems noone with a = camera ever got there. Clarence Weaver never got that far west (north) = and John Profit never got that far east (south). But I still ask. I've = tried Jeff Pontius who did the videos of Clarence Weaver's films (Penn = Valley Pictures), but he doesn't answer, despite several tries. = However, hope springs eternal. Even Bill Coloroso who wrote the superb = book "The Elmira Branch" was amazed at the total lack of information and = photos of Williamsport. Anyone heard from Bill lately? Thanks in advance. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rangerjim94us01=20 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:18 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region I will be most happy to share what information I have available to me on the Northern Region of the Pennsylvania Railroad, including, lines to Buffalo,Rochester, Sodus Point, et. al. by means of mileage tables, schedules and whatever else I can dig up. It will take me a few days to get it assembled for posting here. However, I will need others familiar with this territory to help me fill in the blanks as to customers served, stations still existing, yard facilities, etc. I will do what I can. Thanks to whoever brought up the Pennsy's = Geography. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members -- long Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:47:11 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Some well thought out points here and throughout this very interesting = thread. From my own experience: 1. I had no idea how to go about researching an area where no = information had been published. I started with the public library and = struck out. Also struck out with the historical society. 2. What to do with the information, assuming I found any? 3. Why would I be interested in going to the time and trouble, really, = given the above? Answers: 1. I decided to model that section of the Buffalo Line and needed at = least some basic information to begin a track plan. 2. Through English's Model RR Shop I tracked down Putsee Vannucci, a = retired commercial photographer who had a few dozen RR photographs of = the steam era, most PRR, taken with a large format camera (Speed = Graphic?)with exceptionally fine grain film. I also discovered Sanborn = Fire Insurance Maps and the 1945 edition, as far as I can tell, the last = edition published. 3. I purchased everything Putsee had - around 30 8 X 10 b&w glossies = for $10 ea. The resolution was so good I was able to blow them up on my = wife's business HP photo copier and print super enlargements of key = areas on Kodak glossy paper with amazing detail. =20 4. I shot my mouth off and got "volunteered" by Al Buchan to give a = presentation this May at Camp Hill on The PRR in Williamsport in the = steam era. 5. I am now photographing the glossies to convert them into slides. 6. I purchased a CD of the 1945 edition of the Sanborn maps of = Williamsport for $140. I printed out key areas, junctions, yard = throats, etc. which just happen to match exactly aerial photos taken by = Putsee, and I'm photographing them for my presentation. I even went to = the Historical Society in Williamsport and photographed the color = Sanborn maps (took a few days) since the color slides show detail so = much better. 7. Chuck Blardone has asked me whether I'd be willing to do an article = for the Keystone. Putsee's pictures and the Sanborn maps are both = copyright, so next task on my list is to seek permission. No problem = for an educational presentation to a historical society as long as I = don't hand out copies or post to the Internet, but I will need written = permission for an article. 8. I have learned a ton and haven't had time in over two years to even = begin work on the new expanded Williamsport/Renovo Division model = railroad. I've negotiated real estate rights with management and have a = track concept diagram using the "squares" method ala the late John = Armstrong. And now wife and I are in sleep deprivation trying to get = the Red Sox through the Series. As Yogi so aptly observed (along with = the Yankees), it ain't over 'till it's over! 9. Sure glad I'm retired - how could I ever have done all this with a = day job? Haven't even had time to work on the empire! How did we ever = find time to work? So you see Virginia, sometimes curiosity leads you to just plunge in = with no idea what you're doing, one thing leads to another, and voila'!, = I've got a sizeable tiger by the tail. And this weekend wife(!!!) and I = are riding the Susquehanna Ltd Hbg/Phil/Perryville/NC/Hbg. See you at Camp Hill. Onward, ever onward! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Not even sure who's post I was replying to - I deleted the headers and = previous messages, but someone said: Greetings to Charles and the Group: I'd have to agree, but with a side observation. While you're right, it's = true that the big landmarks and popular operations generate lots of=20 copy, in the long run much of that copy tends to be thin. After awhile,=20 it gets to be a case of finding rehashes of rehashes of rehash. When I=20 was researching Horseshoe Curve for a book, I thought it would be easy=20 to find when it was enlarged from two to four tracks. None of the usual=20 published sources offered even a hint, other than to suggest by default=20 of photographic evidence, that it was sometime between 1892 and 1900. It = took careful scrutiny of the Altoona Mirror and Altoona Tribune to find=20 that the project was accomplished in two steps, from two to three tracks = in 1898 and from three to four in 1899-1900. For a major construction=20 and excavating operation at a significant landmark that was already=20 renowned, this facet of Horseshoe Curve history was virtually unknown. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:50:17 +0200 From: Emil Bagge Subject: [PRR] Re: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com It is a picture i Trains June 1945 page 26 of the PRR S2 driving wheel assemblage. The wheels are quartered. Emil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:29:14 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: O scale PRR X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [141.154.81.44] at Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:29:19 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mark, I don't know of any PRR-specific O scale lists, but probably the largest O list is Yahoo-OTrains at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Otrains/ There are a lot of PRR modelers on that list. BTW, I model the PRR along with a couple of other large eastern roads. Steve Bartlett Mark Lehman wrote: Greetings. Are there any O scale PRR people on this list? Im thinking of going to O scale but it seems like theres not to much available in pennsy. Are there any O scale PRR chat lists? thanks-Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:53:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Jacks Interlocking From: John Sheets From: "Kaczar, Keneth" Subject: [PRR] Re: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:51:43 -0500 From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:14:57 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ~I know that Branchline is producing these cars in Pullman colors and ~markings for pooling service. Does anyone know if the Pennsy ever had = these ~Pullman cars on their system? Ted I=92m not sure what you are driving at with this question =96 the = various cars (within the limitations of mass production) are offered in prototypical names and paint schemes, so if Branchline are offering a 12-1 in PRR = colours you can be sure that the car was either assigned to Pennsy service or = owned by the PRR at some time in its life.=20 You should also be aware that cars assigned to connecting roads would = show up as well =96 for example you would expect to find ACL, SAL or Southern assigned cars between DC and New York. Finding out which exact car names were in use on given routes at any time can be a real challenge, but you = can often extract the car types (such as 12-1 or 10-1-2) from various timetables.=20 For details of specific cars Tom Madden has a detailed database which represents hundreds of hours of work available at = www.pullmanproject.com. This will let you extract the key dates and changes in appearance (such = as the date the car was air-conditioned) for almost any particular car you = care to think of. It does help to have some basic knowledge of Pullman terminology and car types to get the best from the database Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:46:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think you are asking if the Pullman green cars were ever in regular assignment for lengthy periods on the Pennsy. Yes. I'd have to do a little checking to see how prevalent after 1948 divestiture, but yes. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question > PRR Listers: > > I know that Branchline is producing these cars in Pullman colors and > markings for pooling service. Does anyone know if the Pennsy ever had these > Pullman cars on their system? > > Thank you in advance for any information that you can provide me. > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:26:13 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: I will not comment on driver balancing because I have not studied the issue. But I must disagree with you on the S2 quartering issue. My free body diagramming is a little rusty ( ok, a lot ) but what I came up with is that quartering is, for all practical purposes, essential. Assume that we have two driver pairs connected with a side rod, but only on one side (for simplicity). The first driver set we'll call the "powered" set. In the "rods down" position ( Let's call it 0 degrees ) there is indeed complete and smooth force transfer. That's because the force is in the plane normal to the side rod that is at 0 degrees and the amount of force is proportional to the cosine of 0 degrees or 1. However, as the angle begins to change to, say 45 degrees, the force in the plane normal to the side rod has reduced to the cosine of 45 degrees, which is a fraction of 1. Things continue to get worse until the side rod is at the 90 degree position where the cosine of 90 degrees is 0 - meaning there is no force being transferred. Now, let's assume that there was a siderod on the other side of our drivers. If there were no quartering, you would be no better off than having one side rod. With quartering however, as one side began to enter the zero force region of rotation, the other side would be entering it's maximum force region. Works out fine. If you want to think of it another way, if you graph force vs. driver angle, you get a sine (cosine) wave with no quartering. With quartering you get two sine waves displaced from each other by 90 degrees. Force never even gets near zero. At least I've convinced myself for now. Am I right? I wouldn't bet any money, but I think the argument is sound. You have to admit, I used some impressive math terms like cosine. I tried to work cosecant and triple integration in somewhere, but that will have to wait until learn what they mean again. Bill Box #366 Original Message: Okay Folks, It is clear to me that a number of you are struggling with some of the basic issues involved with balancing and quartering of drivers on some steam and electric locomotives. I hope that the following will help y'all to better understand the forces involved and how "balancing" was (or was not) achieved. First, lets take a driver (w/o counter weight or rods). It starts out "perfectly balanced". If you add a gear and a traction motor, it stays perfectly balanced... like the O1, P5... etc. Now, add a side rod to the driver. This rod has mass. In order to balance the mass of the rod and the pin, we add a counterweight to the ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:51:09 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403841a697de59364cb9e70f2c5e0ef301350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.69 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bill--I think you have it. Interesting thread. The siderods (main rods, too) can only transmit force along their length--a simple push pull force. Discounting the not inconsiderable weight of the rods themselves, in Bruce's vector terminology, there is only a horizontal vector with continuously changing magnitude (sinusoidal) but constant horizontal direction. In your two axle system, without quartering, the system would be unable to start with the rods in the 3 o'clock or 6 o'clock positions. The powered axle would attempt to rotate, but the (small--cosine again) force transmitted thru the siderod would be normal to the desired direction of travel of the pin on the unpowered axle, thus no vertical component of force to cause rotation. Quartering is essential. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Warren Dewees" Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:25:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75.1, clamav-milter version 0.75c on 127.0.0.1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.0.0-rc2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0-rc2 (2004-08-15) on ns9.icdc.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Whats being overlooked here is how the energy is being applied to the siderods. With most steamers this is true because of the horizontal cylinders. But the S2, electrics, and some very early steam engines, this is not the case. Warren ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:30:30 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Actually, I interpreted Ted's question as asking if the Pullman Green = cars lettered for Pullman ever ran on the Pennsy. While I don't have = specifics as to particular plans and names, I do recall seeing these = cars depicted in many of the vintage PRR videos available. I'm using = some on my layout Ted so you won't be alone. I'm hoping Branchline = Trains will eventually offer the Pullman owned cars in PRR colors. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton=20 To: 'Ted Andrews'=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:14 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question ~I know that Branchline is producing these cars in Pullman colors and ~markings for pooling service. Does anyone know if the Pennsy ever had = these ~Pullman cars on their system? Ted I=92m not sure what you are driving at with this question =96 the = various cars (within the limitations of mass production) are offered in = prototypical names and paint schemes, so if Branchline are offering a 12-1 in PRR = colours you can be sure that the car was either assigned to Pennsy service or = owned by the PRR at some time in its life.=20 You should also be aware that cars assigned to connecting roads would = show up as well =96 for example you would expect to find ACL, SAL or = Southern assigned cars between DC and New York. Finding out which exact car = names were in use on given routes at any time can be a real challenge, but = you can often extract the car types (such as 12-1 or 10-1-2) from various timetables.=20 For details of specific cars Tom Madden has a detailed database which represents hundreds of hours of work available at = www.pullmanproject.com. This will let you extract the key dates and changes in appearance = (such as the date the car was air-conditioned) for almost any particular car = you care to think of. It does help to have some basic knowledge of Pullman terminology and car types to get the best from the database Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system = (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:44:11 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR in "O" Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:48:21 -0500 To: "J W Box" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, I won't disagree with your math at all. It describes the situation with a fixed point external power source being applied to the crank pin... ie a reciprocating steam engine. As such, there is no question that quartering is need. However, the mathematics are not correct for the instance under discussion, that of a gear driven side rod locomotive. As I have noted, in this later case, the power applied is continuous, and the force vector at the pin on the driven axle is ALWAYS tangent to the wheel at that point. The seminal question, as raised by Tom, is if that force can be applied with the same vector, to a second wheel connected by a rod. I say yes, Tom says no... more to come Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:26 PM, J W Box wrote: > Bruce: > > I will not comment on driver balancing because I have not studied the > issue. > But I must disagree with you on the S2 quartering issue. My free body > diagramming is a little rusty ( ok, a lot ) but what I came up with is > that > quartering is, for all practical purposes, essential. Assume that we > have > two driver pairs connected with a side rod, but only on one side (for > simplicity). The first driver set we'll call the "powered" set. In the > "rods down" position ( Let's call it 0 degrees ) there is indeed > complete > and smooth force transfer. That's because the force is in the plane > normal > to the side rod that is at 0 degrees and the amount of force is > proportional > to the cosine of 0 degrees or 1. However, as the angle begins to > change to, > say 45 degrees, the force in the plane normal to the side rod has > reduced to > the cosine of 45 degrees, which is a fraction of 1. Things continue to > get > worse until the side rod is at the 90 degree position where the cosine > of 90 > degrees is 0 - meaning there is no force being transferred. > > Now, let's assume that there was a siderod on the other side of our > drivers. > If there were no quartering, you would be no better off than having > one side > rod. With quartering however, as one side began to enter the zero force > region of rotation, the other side would be entering it's maximum force > region. Works out fine. > > If you want to think of it another way, if you graph force vs. driver > angle, > you get a sine (cosine) wave with no quartering. With quartering you > get two > sine waves displaced from each other by 90 degrees. Force never even > gets > near zero. > > At least I've convinced myself for now. Am I right? I wouldn't bet any > money, but I think the argument is sound. You have to admit, I used > some > impressive math terms like cosine. I tried to work cosecant and triple > integration in somewhere, but that will have to wait until learn what > they > mean again. > > Bill Box #366 > > > > > > > Original Message: > Okay Folks, > > It is clear to me that a number of you are struggling with some of the > basic issues involved with balancing and quartering of drivers on some > steam and electric locomotives. I hope that the following will help > y'all to better understand the forces involved and how "balancing" was > (or was not) achieved. > > First, lets take a driver (w/o counter weight or rods). It starts out > "perfectly balanced". If you add a gear and a traction motor, it stays > perfectly balanced... like the O1, P5... etc. > > Now, add a side rod to the driver. This rod has mass. In order to > balance the mass of the rod and the pin, we add a counterweight to the > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:36:37 +0000 >From: "Jerry Breon" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question >Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:30:30 -0400 > From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton > Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question > Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, Not sure but when I asked that same question at a local train show, the reply was they thought the green pullmans that BLI issued were cars that seen service on western roads. I myself have no idea....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:24:44 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 >Subject: Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 #6200 >From: "J W Box" >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:26:13 -0400 >From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:51:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:19:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <1D9CA79C-28FD-11D9-84AE-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.169 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi group, I think it's a matter of the "flow of power." If power is being transmitted FROM the driving wheels to the side rods, quartering might be needed, but is not needed if more than one driving wheel is transmitting power. If power is being transmitted TO the driving wheels from the side rods, quartering is needed. So I agree with whoever said that. In the case of the S2 I think it's pretty heads up engineering to question the need for quartering after 100 years of tradition saying otherwise. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:19:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <1D9CA79C-28FD-11D9-84AE-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.169 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi group, I think it's a matter of the "flow of power." If power is being transmitted FROM the driving wheels to the side rods, quartering might be needed, but is not needed if more than one driving wheel is transmitting power. If power is being transmitted TO the driving wheels from the side rods, quartering is needed. So I agree with whoever said that. In the case of the S2 I think it's pretty heads up engineering to question the need for quartering after 100 years of tradition saying otherwise. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:17:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Geographic knowledge of members X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My interest focuses primarily on the PRR Florida service. I live in Gainesville, Fl and it was on the route served by NYNH&H, PRR, RF&P, SAL, and ACL. All of these railroads had passenger cars that came through Gainesville circa 1900 - 1950. I also have photos of B&O cars in Ocala which is 30 miles south of Gainesville. Both ACL and SAL served Gainesville. Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] pullman question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:28:02 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guyz, Got to wondering if this was related to the 2 tone grey cars = as well. Have seen pix of both schemes in Phila.; now just where, and = when did they get used? Old pix have the green cars all over the = system pre-1949; just don't remember the gery cars in any pix of trains = out on the main line. Maybe they were a corridor thing, NYC-DC, odd that there is = not much info out there on this. Curious minds, etc...... Fred in Vt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] T1 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:35:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Scale Houses From: John Sheets Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Scale Houses From: John Sheets From: "Dennis" Subject: Re: [PRR] pullman question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:49:33 -0700 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:08:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] pullman question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Photos from the post W.W. II era of the coach yards near Philly's 30th Station and of New York's Sunnyside Yard show numerous TTG pool sleepers. PRR troop trains serving Fort Dix in New Jersey were well populated with these TTG sleepers. Don't recall any photos of pass. runs with pool sleepers west of Philly. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:20 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 27, 2004, at 1:56 PM, tom hayden wrote: > Your description could be close IF we were talking only about 3 or > more axles AND the side rod was a solid rod from end to end. But, in > fact, each rod is pivoted at each crank, to allow for a sprung > suspension. If it were a solid rod across 3 axles, then each pivot > point would constrain the motion and allow the "lifting" action at > 3:00 to transmit to the other two crank points. Okay, so here's a bit of a good news bad new scenario... I didn't bring this up, because I think it is irrelevant to the argument, although the 3 coupled loco is a lot more intuitively easy to understand. But, in the case of the S2, I looked at all the photos I could last night, and then looked at some additional pictured of 4 or more coupled locos on the web today, and it seems to me that the S2 had a solid rod between drivers 2, 3 and 4 and that the only articulation was at driver 2. This is also the case on a number of other reciprocating steam locomotives. Where articulated, the articulation of the rods sometimes appears to occur ahead of the crank pin and not over it. Now here's a question. If the S2 had geared drives on axles 2 and 3, why did it need a rod connection these two???? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:08:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Charlie, BOD, & List, I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as do cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location along an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or PRR for Chicago). Cincy was an issue - the Cardinal got in/left at atrocious hours and no convenient transportation to/from the station. However, Bennett Levin does have a pair of E-8's and now 3 (count 'em!) Pennsy cars. He has experience pulling excursions and a super reputation for reliability - usually no back-up engines required. (I've cc'd him on this - nothing like "volunteering" someone and not telling them!) Admittedly, these excursions aren't cheap, but distant conventions do require trading off cost with time/convenience. And locations in cities like Buffalo and especially Chicago would attract a ton of people. Perhaps Buffalo could be done in conjunction with an NMRA event - they've had some super conventions in that area - the Canadian folks put on an amazing show. Or could we do our convention in conjunction with other RR organizations (or even non RR organizations?). This could help increase attendance. If we get enough people, we have bargaining power with convention hotels - there are a lot of them in the Buffalo area and Chicago needs no further comment. And Amtrak has regularly scheduled trains to both locations from several origins. Not just sure what's available with sleepers thru PA over the old PRR these days - Amtrak seems to be curtailing service more than adding it. Maybe the election next Tue will help (please, please!). Just another idea, but hey - there's a lot of Pennsy out there, and we need to find ways to visit them and explore. Hosts? Chicago chapter is new and there's no chapter in Buffalo. So some other chapter or the national hosts it. There's a ton of non RR stuff (horrors!) to do in Buffalo (AAA baseball, Buffalo Central Terminal, huge RR yards, big shopping malls for non rail fans, Niagara Falls a short distance away, casinos, golf - the list goes on and on. Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you listening?). Keep me posted - how can I help? Can we get a group together to discuss these and other ideas at Camp Hill? Can we get Bennett to Camp Hill - he seems to often have an excursion that coincides with convention weekend, but this year we're a couple weekends later - so I can do the convention and Bennett's spring excursion too! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII (modeling it slowly, vewy, vewy slowly!) ----- Original Message ----- From: charliehoran@aol.com To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members > Anyway, we ended up having > a great PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati. Keep trying, Charles! We may > have > one in Rochester,NY some year! Speaking NOW as one director of the PRRT&HS, if other "outlying" areas of the PRR system can attract the attendance that Cincy did, even if they can only do half as well in putting it all together, I would certainly support branching out to other locations of the System. By any measure the Cincy Annual Meeting was among, if not THE best, ever. And certainly everyone in attendance gained new Pennsy knowledge as a result! For those that couldn't go (or wouldn't go), it was their loss! Rochester, NY may be in for and open for debate but, the concept is valid. Cincy proved THAT beyond question! Please keep in mind though, as our organization "ages" travel of any distance becomes increasingly more difficult for many of our members. The further we go from our organization's population center, the more members CAN'T come. There is some counterbalance to that f actor from attendance by those that live near the "outlying" site, which otherwise would not have come to a more central location. As long as we gain about as many as we lose, it may make sense to alter our meeting sites. Of course, having a group stand up and take on the responsibility to put it all together is the single biggest hurdle. Putting it all together is a very challenging task for quite a number of people. The BoD is prepared to consider alternate sites for the convention if the needs of the Society are met while holding an Annual Meeting at a "remote" location. The Cincy group did that very nicely. Others may wish to take that on, as well. If you are interested, get your group together and "tell it to the BoD"! You just may "get your wish"! Will you be ready?!!!!!!! ceh. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:16:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: I think I understand what you are saying. But it is not the siderod that is being driven by the gear - it is the axle of the driver. The force there is continuous and constant. Then however, the force it transferred to a traditional crank (the driver and crank pin) and that is where my previous analysis takes over. Regarding the direction of the force vector, it's direction and magnitude will be the vector sum of all the forces acting against the crank pin/ siderod area. These forces include the turbine force, gravity on the any unbalanced drivers and siderods (Thanks Steve) and probably other small forces. One thing I think, though, is that the forces on the crank pin will only be tangential when the drivers are in rods high or rods low position. The only times. Late Breaking News!!!! Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive input on the S2. Results: 1. Need 2 siderods 2. Need quartering Yes! You can try this at home! While you turn the axle, see if you notice that it gets harder to turn as the siderods move between rods down and rods up. Go slowly and cheaters will be punished! Gets pretty tough there where the rods are level with the driver axles doesn't it? That's because the force just turned to zero in that area. Do a simple experiment yourself and end the controversy. Thanks for the opportunity to use some new math words like vector sum and tangential. Next time I intend to work in the word protoplasm. Bill Box #366 Original Message: Bill, I won't disagree with your math at all. It describes the situation with a fixed point external power source being applied to the crank pin... ie a reciprocating steam engine. As such, there is no question that quartering is need. However, the mathematics are not correct for the instance under discussion, that of a gear driven side rod locomotive. As I have noted, in this later case, the power applied is continuous, and the force vector at the pin on the driven axle is ALWAYS tangent to the wheel at that point. The seminal question, as raised by Tom, is if that force can be applied with the same vector, to a second wheel connected by a rod. I say yes, Tom says no... more to come Regards Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:44:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill and other PRRT&HS members, Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the country. I was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for example. Many of us are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill or Harrisburg aren't exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's wrong with some of the convention oriented cities on the former PRR, like New York City and Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. Frankly, from where I live, I doubt I'll ever make a convention as it is at least three days' driving in each direction, there's no Amtrak, and airfares are prohibitively expensive from this area. Gregg Mahlkov, PRRT&HS #7418. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-TALK" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > Charlie, BOD, & List, > > I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as > do > cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the > BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location > along > an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a > couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or > PRR for Chicago). Cincy was an issue - the Cardinal got in/left at > atrocious hours and no convenient transportation to/from the station. > However, Bennett Levin does have a pair of E-8's and now 3 (count 'em!) > Pennsy cars. He has experience pulling excursions and a super reputation > for reliability - usually no back-up engines required. (I've cc'd him on > this - nothing like "volunteering" someone and not telling them!) > Admittedly, these excursions aren't cheap, but distant conventions do > require trading off cost with time/convenience. And locations in cities > like Buffalo and especially Chicago would attract a ton of people. > Perhaps > Buffalo could be done in conjunction with an NMRA event - they've had some > super conventions in that area - the Canadian folks put on an amazing > show. > > Or could we do our convention in conjunction with other RR organizations > (or > even non RR organizations?). This could help increase attendance. If we > get enough people, we have bargaining power with convention hotels - there > are a lot of them in the Buffalo area and Chicago needs no further > comment. > And Amtrak has regularly scheduled trains to both locations from several > origins. Not just sure what's available with sleepers thru PA over the > old > PRR these days - Amtrak seems to be curtailing service more than adding > it. > Maybe the election next Tue will help (please, please!). > > Just another idea, but hey - there's a lot of Pennsy out there, and we > need > to find ways to visit them and explore. Hosts? Chicago chapter is new > and > there's no chapter in Buffalo. So some other chapter or the national > hosts > it. There's a ton of non RR stuff (horrors!) to do in Buffalo (AAA > baseball, Buffalo Central Terminal, huge RR yards, big shopping malls for > non rail fans, Niagara Falls a short distance away, casinos, golf - the > list > goes on and on. Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can > shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you > listening?). > > Keep me posted - how can I help? Can we get a group together to discuss > these and other ideas at Camp Hill? Can we get Bennett to Camp Hill - he > seems to often have an excursion that coincides with convention weekend, > but > this year we're a couple weekends later - so I can do the convention and > Bennett's spring excursion too! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII (modeling it slowly, vewy, vewy slowly!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: charliehoran@aol.com > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:54 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members > > > > >> Anyway, we ended up having >> a great PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati. Keep trying, Charles! We may >> have >> one in Rochester,NY some year! > > Speaking NOW as one director of the PRRT&HS, if other "outlying" areas of > the > PRR system can attract the attendance that Cincy did, even if they can > only > do half as well in putting it all together, I would certainly support > branching > out to other locations of the System. By any measure the Cincy Annual > Meeting was among, if not THE best, ever. And certainly everyone in > attendance > gained new Pennsy knowledge as a result! For those that couldn't go (or > wouldn't > go), it was their loss! > > Rochester, NY may be in for and open for debate but, the concept is valid. > Cincy proved THAT beyond question! Please keep in mind though, as our > organization "ages" travel of any distance becomes increasingly more > difficult for > many of our members. The further we go from our organization's population > center, the more members CAN'T come. There is some counterbalance to that > f > actor > from attendance by those that live near the "outlying" site, which > otherwise > would not have come to a more central location. As long as we gain about > as > many > as we lose, it may make sense to alter our meeting sites. Of course, > having > a group stand up and take on the responsibility to put it all together is > the > single biggest hurdle. Putting it all together is a very challenging task > for > quite a number of people. > > The BoD is prepared to consider alternate sites for the convention if the > needs of the Society are met while holding an Annual Meeting at a "remote" > location. The Cincy group did that very nicely. Others may wish to take > that on, > as well. If you are interested, get your group together and "tell it to > the > BoD"! You just may "get your wish"! Will you be ready?!!!!!!! > > ceh. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:30:09 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] driver quartering ( Long) From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:28:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <00c201c4bd32$4072db20$ecdfc845@stny.rr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcS9M1bFoktb0WK0SM+rpLIiP4OXowACd2xw Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would sell one of my kidneys to ride behind Mr Levin's E-8's on an excursion to Chicago... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR but I'd fly anywhere to get on board! ========================= -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:08 PM To: PRR-TALK Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Charlie, BOD, & List, I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as do cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location along an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:28:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [68.160.134.136] at Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:28:51 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think that if a crank pin is in the 90 or 270 degree position relative to straight up, that is, in line with the axle center and the connected crankpins, then any force applied along the connecting rod against that crankpin will not result in any turning moment being applied to that crankpin. It is on Dead Center. It does not matter what is driving the connecting rod. While the S2 turbine, by virtue of its gearing to two axles, will be able to apply a turning force to those two axles and their drivers, the outer two axles are still dependent on the connecting rods to drive them. The engine _may_ be able to move off dead center via those geared axles. However, it will be relying on only half its driver complement to do so. Steve Bartlett Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:57:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Also look in NJ (New Jersey) It's not that bad of a place. Is there a PRR chapter in NJ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:59:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How good is it? Or how old is it? now thats the ?????? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "William Bigler" , "PRR-TALK" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:27:07 -0400 To: "Gregg Mahlkov" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 28, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the > country. I was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for > example. Many of us are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill > or Harrisburg aren't exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's > wrong with some of the convention oriented cities on the former PRR, > like New York City and Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. Harrisburg's airport actually does have more non-stops than you'd think, including to Orlando and Tampa... but only for a one or two airlines. NYC and Washington would be very expensive. I was thrilled at how well the attendance was for Cincy... but you can't go that far west that often... for the majority that drive from the greater Philly area. Yes, you Florida guys have a hike no matter where, but if 75% drive, you need to keep them in mind. I'd like to see us go to Chicago. But with 2005 and 2006 in Camp Hill, and 2007 in Pittsburgh, I would not recommend going west of Pittsburgh until, say, 2010. A location north of Baltimore might be nice (Hunt Valley?). Or maybe a DelMarVa location if enough local programming could be generated? Also, if you went up the old Elmira branch, the Finger Lakes and the wineries would make for great spousal unit tours... heck, perhaps even family getaways! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Morlitz Subject: [PRR] PRR Mural in West Philly Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:26:42 -0400 To: PRR Fax , PRR Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com While traveling along Lancaster Avenue in West Philadelphia Tuesday, I saw a new wall mural on the northwest corner of 40th & Lancaster. The mural, sponsored by the Belmont Improvement Group along with many sponsors, welcomes visitors to the Belmont area and depicts, among other sights, the PRR's influence in the area. Fully half (the right side) of the mural shows the track route past Zoo along with two engines. The 2 engines are #3750 K4s on tracks behind GG1 #4913 (which is done in Tuscan red with 5 gold stripes). While not entirely accurate (there is no catenary nor is there a pantagraph up), the spirit is certainly there. I'll post the pictures as soon as I have a chance . Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill Coloroso spoke on the Elmira Branch at the Rochester NY NRHS meeting in September 2004. Roy Breon ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-TALK" ; Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Jim & list, I am (still) looking for information on the Buffalo line from Williamsport (Allens) through Keating Summit (KS), especially pictures and most especially (salivate!), movies! Particular interests are Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. Seems noone with a camera ever got there. Clarence Weaver never got that far west (north) and John Profit never got that far east (south). But I still ask. I've tried Jeff Pontius who did the videos of Clarence Weaver's films (Penn Valley Pictures), but he doesn't answer, despite several tries. However, hope springs eternal. Even Bill Coloroso who wrote the superb book "The Elmira Branch" was amazed at the total lack of information and photos of Williamsport. Anyone heard from Bill lately? Thanks in advance. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:47:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have in my possession a pamphlet reprint by ALCO Models titled Steam Turbine Locomotive originally printed for Baldwin-Westinghouse. It is specific for S2 6200. Here are some points from the pamphlet: 1) "The use of a turbine drive eliminates piston rods and other reciprocating parts and, therefore, the driving wheels can be perfectly balanced." 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) & the reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not designed to fly in reverse! 3) Pages 8 & 9 have pictures of some of the major components. The captions are: a) Transmission unit, without turbines, mounted on two center pairs of driving wheels; b) One of the main driving gears mounted on the axle; c) Reversing gear and clutch which engages the turbine when the locomotive backs up; d) Roller-bearing connecting rods for one side of the locomotive. 4) "In order to obtain favorable tractive effort when starting at low speed, the turbine is overbladed and the maximum efficiency and horsepower are attained at a locomotive speed of about 70 miles per hour." 5) "All four driving axles are fitted with roller bearing boxes..." 6) "All four pairs of driving wheels are connected by side rods with roller bearings at the crankpins." See notes below. 6) "No main rods, crossheads or valve motion work are required because of the turbine drive." Other interesting tidbits: There are "clasp brakes on the driving wheels and on all engine truck and tender truck wheels." "The forward turbine is never disengaged and must therefore operate in a direction of rotation opposite to normal when the locomotive is moving in reverse." "...97 per cent of the turbine's power reaches the axles." Notes: Incidentally, the picture of the side rod is of two pieces overlapped on drive axles 2 & 3 with ball bearings encased around the openings where the side rod mounts onto the axles. Regarding the question about quartering... YES they are! The picture of the transmission mounted on the drive wheels and the picture of the main drive gear mounted on an axle clearly depicts the quartering. All axles were geared and, therefore, needed to be connected with a side rod to evenly distribute tractive effort (power) and maybe not to over heat the turbine or 2 & 3 axles and gears. I hope this helps. I don't know about the sine and the cosine and how that relates to the information above. Stay on track, Steve D'Addio Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 > On Oct 27, 2004, at 1:56 PM, tom hayden wrote: >> Your description could be close IF we were talking only about 3 or >> more axles AND the side rod was a solid rod from end to end. But, in >> fact, each rod is pivoted at each crank, to allow for a sprung >> suspension. If it were a solid rod across 3 axles, then each pivot >> point would constrain the motion and allow the "lifting" action at >> 3:00 to transmit to the other two crank points. > > Okay, so here's a bit of a good news bad new scenario... I didn't > bring this up, because I think it is irrelevant to the argument, although > the 3 coupled loco is a lot more intuitively easy to understand. > > But, in the case of the S2, I looked at all the photos I could last night, > and then looked at some additional pictured of 4 or more coupled locos on > the web today, and it seems to me that the S2 had a solid rod between > drivers 2, 3 and 4 and that the only articulation was at driver 2. This > is also the case on a number of other reciprocating steam locomotives. > Where articulated, the articulation of the rods sometimes appears to occur > ahead of the crank pin and not over it. > > Now here's a question. If the S2 had geared drives on axles 2 and 3, why > did it need a rod connection these two???? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:34:59 -0400 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 28, 2004, at 9:22 PM, William Bigler wrote: > Any idea just when Triumph VII will be out? They're a real wealth of > information. Unfortunately, it may not be in time to help me with my > presentation for Camp Hill. Did you mean THIS fall, as is '04?? Mr. Messer told me yesterday there was a death in the family of the publisher which caused a delay. However, my book supplier also told me yesterday that he spoke with Mr. Roberts and he said the delay was caused by some last minute revisions that were being made to the text and the delay would be six weeks (from yesterday). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] SD9 Use Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:57:06 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F83F5@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] SD9 Use Thread-Index: AcS9SE9dzM6jyX/YRha9+RSTJIHYtwAaA8fA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "TCJ Riggs" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 7600-7607 were used as hump engines at E, Altoona. 7608 to about 15 were at Enola as hump engines. The rest were scattered between Columbus and Indianapolis as hump engines. If your model railroad has a hump, they should be right at home. Bill V. PS: The 7603, if I remember correctly, at E. Altoona had the keystones painted with a gold background rather than the traditional red. It was the only one painted that way. Never did find out why. Anybody know? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of TCJ Riggs Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:51 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] SD9 Use The recent talk about SDs prompts this question. I am repainting and lettering two SD9s for the PRR from the 25 numbered 7600-7625. How would they have been used compared to the vastly greater number of GP9s? Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:11:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-TALK" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations ... > Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can > shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you > listening?). > Buffalo Line? You keep saying you're interested in "the Buffalo Line from Williamsport to Keating Summit." You should say "the Philadelphia & Erie", or "the Main Line - Erie". Buffalo Line??? :-P ------------ Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Pullmans Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:37:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Our initial shipment of Walthers 12-1 Pullmans arrived this morning and = included cars for Pennsy, Pullman pool and NYC. All cars have = electro-mechanical A/C and top equalized trucks. I know there was some = talk that the A/C system components would be railroad-specific and = installed by the buyer but such is not the case. The decal sheet has 32 = names for Pennsy cars - twice the number for any other railroad or = Pullman pool. On a quick once-over the cars look very nice and the trucks roll well = but not great. It will remain to be seen if Pennsy modelers will buy = these cars and run them as-is or opt to change the A/C system to ice or = just stick with the Branchline cars. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Pullmans Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:37:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Our initial shipment of Walthers 12-1 Pullmans arrived this morning and = included cars for Pennsy, Pullman pool and NYC. All cars have = electro-mechanical A/C and top equalized trucks. I know there was some = talk that the A/C system components would be railroad-specific and = installed by the buyer but such is not the case. The decal sheet has 32 = names for Pennsy cars - twice the number for any other railroad or = Pullman pool. On a quick once-over the cars look very nice and the trucks roll well = but not great. It will remain to be seen if Pennsy modelers will buy = these cars and run them as-is or opt to change the A/C system to ice or = just stick with the Branchline cars. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:11:15 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well Chicago has some of the cheapest airfares around with Southwest flying into Midway. Right now they have $39.00 fares to most destinations which is probably cheaper and definitely faster than driving. We are being considered and are talking about what we could do at our meetings. In the east somewhere between Trenton and Newark would allow excursions in both directions to New York for those who have never ridden the corridor and Philadelphia. Just a thought. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Gregg Mahlkov" : -------------- > Bill and other PRRT&HS members, > > Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the country. I > was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for example. Many of us > are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill or Harrisburg aren't > exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's wrong with some of the > convention oriented cities on the former PRR, like New York City and > Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. > > Frankly, from where I live, I doubt I'll ever make a convention as it is at > least three days' driving in each direction, there's no Amtrak, and airfares > are prohibitively expensive from this area. > > Gregg Mahlkov, PRRT&HS #7418. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Bigler" > To: "PRR-TALK" > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:08 PM > Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > > > > Charlie, BOD, & List, > > > > I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as > > do > > cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the > > BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location > > along > > an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a > > couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or > > PRR for Chicago). Cincy was an issue - the Cardinal got in/left at > > atrocious hours and no convenient transportation to/from the station. > > However, Bennett Levin does have a pair of E-8's and now 3 (count 'em!) > > Pennsy cars. He has experience pulling excursions and a super reputation > > for reliability - usually no back-up engines required. (I've cc'd him on > > this - nothing like "volunteering" someone and not telling them!) > > Admittedly, these excursions aren't cheap, but distant conventions do > > require trading off cost with time/convenience. And locations in cities > > like Buffalo and especially Chicago would attract a ton of people. > > Perhaps > > Buffalo could be done in conjunction with an NMRA event - they've had some > > super conventions in that area - the Canadian folks put on an amazing > > show. > > > > Or could we do our convention in conjunction with other RR organizations > > (or > > even non RR organizations?). This could help increase attendance. If we > > get enough people, we have bargaining power with convention hotels - there > > are a lot of them in the Buffalo area and Chicago needs no further > > comment. > > And Amtrak has regularly scheduled trains to both locations from several > > origins. Not just sure what's available with sleepers thru PA over the > > old > > PRR these days - Amtrak seems to be curtailing service more than adding > > it. > > Maybe the election next Tue will help (please, please!). > > > > Just another idea, but hey - there's a lot of Pennsy out there, and we > > need > > to find ways to visit them and explore. Hosts? Chicago chapter is new > > and > > there's no chapter in Buffalo. So some other chapter or the national > > hosts > > it. There's a ton of non RR stuff (horrors!) to do in Buffalo (AAA > > baseball, Buffalo Central Terminal, huge RR yards, big shopping malls for > > non rail fans, Niagara Falls a short distance away, casinos, golf - the > > list > > goes on and on. Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can > > shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you > > listening?). > > > > Keep me posted - how can I help? Can we get a group together to discuss > > these and other ideas at Camp Hill? Can we get Bennett to Camp Hill - he > > seems to often have an excursion that coincides with convention weekend, > > but > > this year we're a couple weekends later - so I can do the convention and > > Bennett's spring excursion too! > > > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > > Big Flats NY > > Modeling PRR Renovo & > > Williamsport WWII (modeling it slowly, vewy, vewy slowly!) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: charliehoran@aol.com > > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:54 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members > > > > > > > > > >> Anyway, we ended up having > >> a great PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati. Keep trying, Charles! We may > >> have > >> one in Rochester,NY some year! > > > > Speaking NOW as one director of the PRRT&HS, if other "outlying" areas of > > the > > PRR system can attract the attendance that Cincy did, even if they can > > only > > do half as well in putting it all together, I would certainly support > > branching > > out to other locations of the System. By any measure the Cincy Annual > > Meeting was among, if not THE best, ever. And certainly everyone in > > attendance > > gained new Pennsy knowledge as a result! For those that couldn't go (or > > wouldn't > > go), it was their loss! > > > > Rochester, NY may be in for and open for debate but, the concept is valid. > > Cincy proved THAT beyond question! Please keep in mind though, as our > > organization "ages" travel of any distance becomes increasingly more > > difficult for > > many of our members. The further we go from our organization's population > > center, the more members CAN'T come. There is some counterbalance to that > > f > > actor > > from attendance by those that live near the "outlying" site, which > > otherwise > > would not have come to a more central location. As long as we gain about > > as > > many > > as we lose, it may make sense to alter our meeting sites. Of course, > > having > > a group stand up and take on the responsibility to put it all together is > > the > > single biggest hurdle. Putting it all together is a very challenging task > > for > > quite a number of people. > > > > The BoD is prepared to consider alternate sites for the convention if the > > needs of the Society are met while holding an Annual Meeting at a "remote" > > location. The Cincy group did that very nicely. Others may wish to take > > that on, > > as well. If you are interested, get your group together and "tell it to > > the > > BoD"! You just may "get your wish"! Will you be ready?!!!!!!! > > > > ceh. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: driver quartering ( Corrected- still long) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:58:13 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 29, 2004, at 6:34 AM, tom hayden having a "EUREKA" moment wrote: > Group, Amazingly I may have had an error in my previous analysis! > I think I see a fatal error. > In other words, as Bruce and others have noted, (but without any > proof!) QUARTERING IS NOT NEEDED - Sort of! Isn't that the way it always works? The physicist KNOWS it works, but leaves it to the engineer to explain HOW it works (especially in the REAL WORLD!!!) I think my family physicist will indeed be happy with your explanation. When last seen she was waving her arms and muttering something about conservation of energy, first law of thermodynamics, abradcadabra, etc... ;^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:34:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I remember and still here talk about the year the convention was held in Wilmington, DE. Why has there been no effort made to return there again? Still lots of former PRR facilities to see and perhaps tour (if Amtrak would cooperate). And Wilmington offers lots of spouse tour opportunities (Longwood Gardens, Winterthur, Brandywine, etc.) as well as lower costs than Philly, New York or DC. Chris Baker PRRT&HS#1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Oct 28, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the > > country. I was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for > > example. Many of us are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill > > or Harrisburg aren't exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's > > wrong with some of the convention oriented cities on the former PRR, > > like New York City and Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. > > Harrisburg's airport actually does have more non-stops than you'd > think, including to Orlando and Tampa... but only for a one or two > airlines. > > NYC and Washington would be very expensive. > > I was thrilled at how well the attendance was for Cincy... but you > can't go that far west that often... for the majority that drive from > the greater Philly area. Yes, you Florida guys have a hike no matter > where, but if 75% drive, you need to keep them in mind. > > I'd like to see us go to Chicago. But with 2005 and 2006 in Camp Hill, > and 2007 in Pittsburgh, I would not recommend going west of Pittsburgh > until, say, 2010. > > A location north of Baltimore might be nice (Hunt Valley?). Or maybe a > DelMarVa location if enough local programming could be generated? > > Also, if you went up the old Elmira branch, the Finger Lakes and the > wineries would make for great spousal unit tours... heck, perhaps even > family getaways! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Don Harper Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:43:20 -0500 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 14:50:27.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[A127A240:01C4BDC6] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How about Buffalo, NY? Southwest flies in there. My favorite engine, I1sa 4483, is just a few miles down the road in Hamburg. We could all go there and crawl all over her. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:20:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 15:18:00.0648 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A526480:01C4BDCA] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My vote is Pittsburgh... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Don Harper Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:43 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations How about Buffalo, NY? Southwest flies in there. My favorite engine, I1sa 4483, is just a few miles down the road in Hamburg. We could all go there and crawl all over her. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:28:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Sam Vastano wrote: > My vote is Pittsburgh... Already planned for 2007. This was announced by the BoD many months ago. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver Quartering, Scientists, & Engineers Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:38:26 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Being both a scientist and an engineer (obsolete in both categories!), I = feel qualified to comment without fear of upsetting anyone or being = taken seriously. Scientists are driven to know why it works. Engineers are content to = know how to make it work. We do talk to each other, however. Bill Bigler,=20 BS (you know what that means), MS (more of same), and former member of = Sigma XI (you don't wanna know) - let's just play trains. Time to leave = for Harrisburg & Susquehanna Ltd! And Bruce & ole Ben were right: "Beer is proof that God loves us and = wants us to be happy" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Smith=20 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-talk LIST=20 Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: driver quartering ( Corrected- still long) On Oct 29, 2004, at 6:34 AM, tom hayden having a "EUREKA" moment = wrote: > Group, Amazingly I may have had an error in my previous analysis! > I think I see a fatal error. > In other words, as Bruce and others have noted, (but without any > proof!) QUARTERING IS NOT NEEDED - Sort of! Isn't that the way it always works? The physicist KNOWS it works, but = leaves it to the engineer to explain HOW it works (especially in the=20 REAL WORLD!!!) I think my family physicist will indeed be = happy=20 with your explanation. When last seen she was waving her arms and=20 muttering something about conservation of energy, first law of=20 thermodynamics, abradcadabra, etc... ;^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20 Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:49:36 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Driver quartering ( Corrected- still long) From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:59:12 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The decal sheet with the Walthers 12-1's only has 16 Pennsy names - not = 32 as I originally reported (told you it was a quick look). All of the Pennsy names provided are = for ice A/C cars. Did Pennsy have any 12-1 cars with electro-mechanical = A/C? Another subject - in our initial shipment of Branchline 12-1's were some = New Haven cars in Pennsy paint and striping; specifically Israel Putnam = and John Winthrop. Can anyone advise which Pennsy trains these might = have been seen on and during what time period? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:11:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conventions X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Folks, I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my question, why hasn't anybody mentioned Altoona? I was convention chairman for the MER hosted NMRA three region convention in Altoona in October 2000. We had a great convention. There is a lot to do in the Altoona/Greater Altoona area for "non-rails" and I won't even mention what to do for us SPF's. I would think that the Museum staff would welcome us and I know the Chamber of Commerce would. Local transportation was great (I chartered the local bus company to run shuttles and back and forth to the Museum as well as a trip to Johnstown. There is adequate AMTRAK service as well excellent road network to the area. Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing about and of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told me has been spruced up a bit. So, how come nothing has been mentioned about Altoona. Bob Martin York, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:11:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conventions X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Folks, I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my question, why hasn't anybody mentioned Altoona? I was convention chairman for the MER hosted NMRA three region convention in Altoona in October 2000. We had a great convention. There is a lot to do in the Altoona/Greater Altoona area for "non-rails" and I won't even mention what to do for us SPF's. I would think that the Museum staff would welcome us and I know the Chamber of Commerce would. Local transportation was great (I chartered the local bus company to run shuttles and back and forth to the Museum as well as a trip to Johnstown. There is adequate AMTRAK service as well excellent road network to the area. Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing about and of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told me has been spruced up a bit. So, how come nothing has been mentioned about Altoona. Bob Martin York, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:24:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thrust reversers X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/29/04 1:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) &the > reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not > designed to fly in reverse! > I'm not sure any turbines are designed to reverse. Aircraft turbines don't reverse. Their "thrust reversers" reroute the exhaust forward, giving braking thrust. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:24:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thrust reversers X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/29/04 1:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) &the > reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not > designed to fly in reverse! > I'm not sure any turbines are designed to reverse. Aircraft turbines don't reverse. Their "thrust reversers" reroute the exhaust forward, giving braking thrust. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:25:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Conventions X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just thinking back to my Pennsy days, especially while based in Buffalo, there were two cities that I always enjoyed visiting, Olean, NY and Oil City. They were bigg PRR locations then. I don't know what, if anything, remains of the PRR at either location. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:58:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcS9UkGsxRE/SCCdQ8y9dIGUqW2LkQAnpwkQ In-reply-to: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. So, does anyone have a photo confirming their existence, or was NJ International also following Walthers' generic (and probably wrong) instructions when they drew their plan? Did any D78s ever have an AC duct on the roof? I'd like to be sure before I start rebuilding these old Walthers cars. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:58:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcS9UkGsxRE/SCCdQ8y9dIGUqW2LkQAnpwkQ In-reply-to: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. So, does anyone have a photo confirming their existence, or was NJ International also following Walthers' generic (and probably wrong) instructions when they drew their plan? Did any D78s ever have an AC duct on the roof? I'd like to be sure before I start rebuilding these old Walthers cars. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:24:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Doug, The PRR T&H Society bulletin, The KEYSTONE, has had several good articles. They did the D78 in the spring of 2003 and had two editions on the D70 many years ago. I know because before I asked my question, I searched my own library, including KEYSTONEs back to 1978. The Society's website lists available back issue for sale. regards, Andy Miller From: Douglas Kirkpatrick [mailto:kirkpat@charter.net] > I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that > have described specific RR dining car history but I haven't found one, or a > magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone > know of such a source? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:24:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Doug, The PRR T&H Society bulletin, The KEYSTONE, has had several good articles. They did the D78 in the spring of 2003 and had two editions on the D70 many years ago. I know because before I asked my question, I searched my own library, including KEYSTONEs back to 1978. The Society's website lists available back issue for sale. regards, Andy Miller From: Douglas Kirkpatrick [mailto:kirkpat@charter.net] > I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that > have described specific RR dining car history but I haven't found one, or a > magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone > know of such a source? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:22:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom: I think the torque is a function of the cosine of the crank angle - not sine. But whatever. Please answer this: If the torque is a function of the sine of the crank angle, then you are correct in saying that as the crank angle approaches 9:00 the torque in your example approaches 10 ft-pounds. That must mean that if the crank is at 12:00 or 6:00 the force is still a function of the sine of the crank angle which, in this case is zero. Zero force, nada, zip. You have already conceded that we all know that the force is 10 foot-pounds, a value predicted by the cosine theory. One of the foundations of Newtonian Mechanics is that the laws of physics are constant regardless of position in the universe, from one corner of a cell's protoplasm to another, and from one driver position to another. I stand by my original analysis. I would like to sum up my position to clarify any confusion: 1. Two driver pairs, connected by one siderod (the other side has no siderod) will stall at 9:00 and 3:00 unless the "flywheel" effect allows the drivers to coast through those positions 2. Situation 1 above is independent of how the force is applied 3. Two driver pairs connected by TWO siderods (one each side) that have drivers with identical crank angles, act like Situation 1 4. Force applied by the crank pin to the siderod is a function of the cosine of the crank angle where 0 degrees is rods down. 5. Two siderods with different crank angles must be used for there to be a no stall condition. The force can be graphed (even calculated) by graphing the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angles of the two siderods displaced by their difference in crank angles. If you do this, you will see that while quartering is not the only solution, it does give the smoothest force vs. crank angle curve available - a very good thing, indeed. You will also see that the only angles that will not work under any circumstances is ... ready? ... 0 degrees displacement. I also stand by my challenge I made in my last post to stop all these mind experiments and do a simple real test that should settle matters. I argue from a position of strength... I've done it. I could have goofed it up, though. I believed in cold fusion. I would like a few folks to do it, too. I think I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but a quick poll of my co-workers puts me in Nader territory. "Crude" is often mentioned. I have repeated the experimental procedure, below, for those who had the good judgment to delete my last post. I don't know about the rest of you, but my math vocabulary is extinguished. Anyone notice the deft way I slipped in "protoplasm"? I told you I would try. If there is a next time, how about split pea soup? Bill Box #366 THE EXPERIMENT: Late Breaking News!!!! Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive input on the S2. Results: 1. Need 2 siderods 2. Need quartering Yes! You can try this at home! While you turn the axle, see if you notice that it gets harder to turn as the siderods move between rods down and rods up. Go slowly and cheaters will be punished! Gets pretty tough there where the rods are level with the driver axles doesn't it? That's because the force just turned to zero in that area. Tom wrote: Group, Amazingly I may have had an error in my previous analysis! I think I see a fatal error. Consider this: Same scenario, 0-4-0 with crank radius of 1 ft and .... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:24:15 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcS9UkGsxRE/SCCdQ8y9dIGUqW2LkQAnpwkQAACnGEAAAFP3IA== In-reply-to: <3a57rt$ehf5hr@mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug, The PRR T&H Society bulletin, The KEYSTONE, has had several good articles. They did the D78 in the spring of 2003 and had two editions on the D70 many years ago. I know because before I asked my question, I searched my own library, including KEYSTONEs back to 1978. The Society's website lists available back issue for sale. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Kirkpatrick [mailto:kirkpat@charter.net] Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:15 PM To: 'Andy Miller'; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Hi, Guys, I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that have described specific RR dining car history (e.g. Northern Pacific, Southern Pacific, NY and New Haven) but I haven't found one, or a magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone know of such a source? Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 11:59 AM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:24:15 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcS9UkGsxRE/SCCdQ8y9dIGUqW2LkQAnpwkQAACnGEAAAFP3IA== In-reply-to: <3a57rt$ehf5hr@mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug, The PRR T&H Society bulletin, The KEYSTONE, has had several good articles. They did the D78 in the spring of 2003 and had two editions on the D70 many years ago. I know because before I asked my question, I searched my own library, including KEYSTONEs back to 1978. The Society's website lists available back issue for sale. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Kirkpatrick [mailto:kirkpat@charter.net] Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:15 PM To: 'Andy Miller'; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Hi, Guys, I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that have described specific RR dining car history (e.g. Northern Pacific, Southern Pacific, NY and New Haven) but I haven't found one, or a magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone know of such a source? Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 11:59 AM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Conventions Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:54:29 -0400 To: Cprrboss@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 29, 2004, at 2:11 PM, Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's > something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my > question, why hasn't > anybody mentioned Altoona? > > Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing > about and > of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told > me has > been spruced up a bit. A convention center may change things, but Altoona had space issues. The one hotel that was large enough to house everyone really didn't have a good space for presentations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edmund Lee Burbage" Subject: [PRR] qUESTION Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:57:11 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com WHAT IS THE eMAIL ADDRESS FOR THE prr tALK LINE i GET ON THE COMPUTER? i = WANT TO POST A QUESTION TO SEE IF ANYONE KNOWS IF A CERTAIN PERSON IS A = MEMBER OF THE prrt&h sOCIETY. leeswitchkey@mchsi.com . LEE BURBAGE 1943 PRRT&H Soc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] SD9 use Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:08:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The recent discussion on SDs prompts me to ask how the 25 SDs would have been used compared to the greater number of GP9s. I am repainting and numbering a pair of SD9s in N scale. Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 use Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:48:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My apologies for sending this query twice. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 6:08 PM Subject: [PRR] SD9 use > The recent discussion on SDs prompts me to ask how the 25 SDs would have > been used compared to the greater number of GP9s. I am repainting and > numbering a pair of SD9s in N scale. > > Tom Riggs > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:06:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403514b551ee60a0f84a74ecca9445e832350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.248 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For Bill, Tom, Bruce and anyone else still holding on. For everyone else, don't fuss, just use the DELETE button. We seem to be nibbling around the edges of this. Maybe--hopefully--this, together with Bill's "lab exercise", will shed some light we can all see. First, Tom wrote: > >So at 10 Deg from 9:00 the rod has much greater force applied in the >horizontal direction than the 10 lbs. > This is indeed truly remarkable, but I think the first people we should tell it to are Capt Kirk, Spock, and, especially, Scotty. (VBG) To be consistent let's adopt Tom's terminology of Driving wheel (gear attached with motor) and Driven wheel (driven by siderod only), and mounted to the right of the Driving wheel, like looking at the engineeer's side of our 0-4-0. Also, since it is the easiest to visualize, let's call it like a clock face with 12 o'clock straight up, 3 on the right, 6 down, 9 on the left, etc. Also, forward motion to the right. The siderod ends fit on the crankpins with no perceptible tolerance yet are free to rotate. Consider first the Driving wheel (and Driven wheel) with crankpin at 9 o'clock. As torque is applied the wheel rotates clockwise. At the point at which the wheel has rotated 10 deg, the force being transmitted thru the siderod is the horizontal component of the force tangent to the arc at the crankpin (let's call that force F), or F x sin 10 deg. As the angle increases, the horizontal component increases since sine goes from 0 to 1 as the angle goes from 0 deg to 90 deg. But there is more to the story. Our Driving wheel has rigidly attached to it an axle and the wheel on the fireman's side. The two wheels and axle can only rotate as a unit. Consider our two wheel/axle assembly to be quartered, with left hand lead, of course. And let's continue to observe from the engineer's side so that we see the inside of the fireman's side wheel. When our Driving wheel started rotating with the crankpin at the 9 o'clock position, the fireman's side Driving wheel started rotating with the crankpin at the 12 o'clock position. At the point at which the fireman's side wheel has rotated 10 deg, the force being transmitted thru its siderod is the horizontal component of the force tangent to the arc at the crankpin, or F x cos 10 deg. As the angle increases, the horizontal component decreases since cosine goes from 1 to 0 as the angle goes from 0 deg to 90 deg. Thus where the engineer's side is exerting minimal but increasing force, the fireman's side is exerting maximum but decreasing force. From 9 to 12, use sine, from 12 to 3 use cosine, from 3 to 6 use sine, from 6 to 9 use cosine. And vice versa. The result, work is being done, and everyone is happy: the Company, the RFE, and the family physicist since all the torque is being transferred. Now consider the situation where there is no quartering; i. e., on both sides the Driving wheels (and the Driven wheels) have their crankpins at the 9 o'clock position. As torque is applied to accomplish rotation, the horizontal component applied to both siderods is F x sin 0 deg, and there is no rotation of the Driven wheels, locking up the system. Not everyone is happy; no work is being done. The RFE is raising Cain with the roundhouse foreman. However, the family physicist is happy since, as electricity is applied to the motor without rotation, the temperature is increasing, the stench becomes terrible, and smoke is beginning to appear. The Second Law of Thermodynamics has again been proven true. Quartering is required in a system which has siderod driven wheels regardless of the means of providing driving torque, and to achieve the periodic compensating forces discribed above, it must be 90 deg (or close to it). And 90 deg is one quarter of 360 deg, which is, after all, why it is called "quartering". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron & Marilyn" Subject: Re: [PRR] Conventions Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:27:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Just thinking back to my Pennsy days, especially while based in Buffalo, > there were two cities that I always enjoyed visiting, Olean, NY and Oil > City. They > were bigg PRR locations then. I don't know what, if anything, remains of > the > PRR at either location. > > Regards, > > Marty Oil City is just a lonely outpost on Norfolk Southern. The big Pennzoil refinery is gone as are most of the supporting industries. NS comes into town a few times a week from Meadville to deliver cars to the OC&T and the few remaining industries. The wye bridge is still there but the roundhouse and Bridge Tower are long gone and the yard sits empty. Other than the OC&T operation, there isn't much left of the PRR in that neck of the woods. Ron Mele ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:58:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. So, does anyone have a photo confirming their existence, or was NJ International also following Walthers' generic (and probably wrong) instructions when they drew their plan? Did any D78s ever have an AC duct on the roof? I'd like to be sure before I start rebuilding these old Walthers cars. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:58:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. So, does anyone have a photo confirming their existence, or was NJ International also following Walthers' generic (and probably wrong) instructions when they drew their plan? Did any D78s ever have an AC duct on the roof? I'd like to be sure before I start rebuilding these old Walthers cars. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] In the market for an E-unit? Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:27:42 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Came across this tonight while surfing. FWIW the same=20 dealer has a Brook Series sleeper for sale too. http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/locomotive/index.html Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:53:57 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] Re: In the market for an E-unit? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John Frantz wrote: > Came across this tonight while surfing. FWIW the same > dealer has a Brook Series sleeper for sale too. > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/locomotive/index.html As info, the first four E units on that page are in storage in Minerva, Ohio, on the Ohi-Rail. I wasn't aware that they are for sale. Reportedly, their owner lives somewhere around Chicagoland, but once every couple of years he has Ohi-Rail fire them up and run them around a little bit. They used the two ex-PRR ones a few years ago. From what I understand, they need new sets of batteries, which is why they haven't turned a wheel in a little while. Otherwise, with good batteries, the ex-PRR ones could be started up and put in service, as they're in pretty good condition. Wonder if Bennett and Eric need another project? :) -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <8FC78CB9-2AD7-11D9-A306-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] DGLE Wall Paint Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:55:30 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Several people have mentioned that they've been able to get paint matches for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel via color drift cards and the computers at True Value hardware stores... with Benjamin Moore paints. (The Home Depot computers think it is black!) Finally got a chance to get to a True Value... only to find out that when they remodeled they got rid of the computer! Those of you who got the Benjamin Moore mix... if you still have a can handy, would you please check and see if they put the formula on a label on the can? I would be very grateful if you could let me know what it is -- as well as what "base" paint they used -- as they can make the mix without the computer. They just need the formula. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:43:32 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com --On Friday, October 29, 2004 22:15 -0400 parkvarieties@provide.net wrote: > The decal sheet with the Walthers 12-1's only has 16 Pennsy names - not > 32 as I originally reported (told you it was a quick look). All of the > Pennsy names provided are for ice A/C cars. Did Pennsy have any 12-1 > cars with electro-mechanical A/C? Coupla observations: First, Pennsy didn't "have" any 12-1 Pullmans until Pullman was forced to divest itself of ownership. Second, with respect to the type of A/C on Pullmans in Pennsy livery in service on Pennsy lines, when Pullman decided to upgrade its sleeping car fleet in the mid-1930s, Tom Madden's review article on Branchline's 12-1 Pullman kits (Oct 2005, Railmodel Journal), says Pullman's standard was the electro/mechanical configuration (same as comes with the Walthers RTR cars). But Madden goes on to say Pennsy "preferred" Ice A/C. My sketchy research library doesn't have anything in it that would allow me to say to the purist, "never say never." Bottom line: if you're looking for a "typical" 12-1 in PRR service ca. 1935 - 1960's, the Walthers offering is close enough for most, but not totally correct for the car names it supplies in its packages. The decision to do this in an RTR format is understandable, but unfortunate. That said, I bought one ... it's a far cry better than my 1968 Rivarossi James Logan! And I'm lazy enough in this sector of the hobby in the context of my overall interests not to care about the difference in undercarriage details, which probably is why I went with an RTR offering in the first place. I'll just exchange knowing glances with the 0.01% of visitors who know better. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:52:59 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com By way of followup to my previous post on this subject, see http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_Sleeper_Car.htm According to this website a total of eight (a TINY minority) hvy wt 12-1 Pullman sleepers of Plan 3410 had Mechanical/Brine A/C when sold to PRR between 1945 and 1948. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:08:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > For Bill, Tom, Bruce and anyone else still holding on. For everyone else, > don't fuss, just use the DELETE button. > > We seem to be nibbling around the edges of this. Maybe--hopefully--this, > together with Bill's "lab exercise", will shed some light we can > all see. Steve, As much as I respect and admire your knowledge of PRR steam, I'll have to continue to disagree here. Me emailer at home won't let me use your message in this reply, so I'll try this without quoting you. The fatal flaw in your analysis is that you only evaluate the horizontal component of the force vector. As I hope you will agree, the force produced by a gear driven drive wheel at the pin (no rod) is of constant magnitude and tangential to the wheel that that point. As the wheel rotates, the horizontal AND vertical components of the force vector vary inversely. When the wheel is at 12:00 or 6:00 the horizontal compontent is equal to the entire force vector, and when the wheel is at 3:00 or 9:00, the VERTICAL component is equal to the entire force vector. Now add the rod and second axle. The rod is constrained. It is not capable of any other path of motion that the constrained one. Granted, wear on the pin/rod bearing, and wheel bearings will alter this slightly thus I'm willing to concede that quartering might have helped when bearings were worn. The rod translates circular motion to circular motion. There is no translation to linear motion involved. Any fixed point on the rod describes a CIRCLE (if the locomotive is on rollers). Because the rod behaves in this manner, it responds to both the vertical and horizontal components of the force vector, and therefor see a continuous force vector, tangential to the wheel, no matter the point of rotation. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:40:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Driver balancing and quartering From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, > I think some of the analysis is flawed > so I will endeavor to impose my views, but back them up with an experiment > that so far has gone un-challenged on the other list. Sorry, but I do have a real job besides trying to teach recalcitrant PRR listmembers physics. That, and after Tom saw the light, I figured the subject was dead. >Also, frankly, I kind of > enjoy playing the martyr role, creating chaos, making a scene and > generally acting immaturely. That's OK, I enjoy playing the professor... Your position is based on a flawed assumption which leads you to your incorrect conclusion. You are completely ignoring the vertical component of the force vector, and you do not appear to acknowledge the basic intial condition that force produced by the pin is uniform in magnitude and always tangent to the wheel at that point. If you don't agree with that, try a google search on "Circular motion". If you still don't get it, talk to a physicist or engineer. > THE CHALLENGE! LET'S SETTLE THIS!!!! > > Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project > loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too > embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. > Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive > input on the S2. Sorry, you cannot model this with an old brass model. Your issues would more likely relate to quartering, and rod length. The margin of error in models is at least as great as that in the prototype, yet the overall lengths are orders of magnitude smaller vastly magnifying the defects. Although, it does pose interesting questions about how effective rods are at transmitting force to additional wheels in our models... maybe those 4-8-2s are really only pushing with 2 wheels half the time? Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:02:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: You addressed your last post to Steve so I'll be very brief. I think that you made a wrong assumption. You assume that the vertical force component is important. It is not. A siderod can transmit force ONLY in the horizontal direction. Therefore, it is only this horizontal component of the force vector that matters as far as the driven (as opposed to the geared driver) driver is concerned. If you look at the magnitude of the horizontal force component only, you will see that you can calculate it's value by multiplying the force by the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angle. The crank angle is defined as zero when the siderod is at 6:00 position or "rods down". Please consider taking a few minutes and running the simple experiment I have proposed in several posts. It take us out of "mind experiments" and into the real world. Einstein had to do mind experiments because technology was not there to do real experiments. I ran my real experiment on my workbench with scraps. Bill Box #366 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:10:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/30/2004 9:46:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: Bottom line: if you're looking for a "typical" 12-1 in PRR service ca. 1935 - 1960's, the Walthers offering is close enough for most, but not totally correct for the car names it supplies in its packages. The decision to do this in an RTR format is understandable, but unfortunate. That said, I bought one ... it's a far cry better than my 1968 Rivarossi James Logan! And I'm lazy enough in this sector of the hobby in the context of my overall interests not to care about the difference in undercarriage details, which probably is why I went with an RTR offering in the first place. I'll just exchange knowing glances with the 0.01% of visitors who know better. If you want to take the time to build a kit, the Branchline cars have the correct A/C for the PRR cars. Only problem is they print the name of the car on the sides so you are limited to those names they are making. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:26:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Old roundhouse at Columbus, Indiana In a message dated 10/18/04 1:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dchaney1@mindspring.com writes: > Rick, A few of the retired PRR guys in the Columbus, Indiana area are > trying to get some info on the old roundhouse there, specifically > when it was built. They want to get a historical marker put there. > Any suggestions as to where other than the courthouse they might > look. Any help would be appreciated by them, specifically R.L. > Brown, retired conductor (hired on Jan.,1941). Thanks, Dave Chaney > Dave, Unfortunately, I'm not even sure where the roundhouse was -- remember, I moved to the area in 1972, roughly the time that all Columbus ops were moved to the "new" yard northwest of town, remaining "old" buildings were demolished (notably the Panhandle freight house, obviously a very old brick design), and a new mall was constructed. Columbus' relocation history has to be much more tortured than that, however. It happens that, of the few historical maps of Columbus I've uncovered/collected/copied, the track arrangements are different on each. Even a civic puff piece I picked up in the 70's doesn't look like today's track location -- Columbus Indiana keeps reinventing itself. I can only surmise from their alignments into town that, once upon a time, the five tracks into town (2 Louisville main, 2 PRR branches, 1 NYC branch) came together at one point. But the terminus of all this was later reached by reroutings that took the 2 Pennsy branches out of the center of town; after that stage, the Madison Branch came in the south end of the pre-70s yard, and the Cambridge City/Rushville/Shelbyville Branch came in the north end of that yard. I still haven't discovered what the NYC did, although it must have been well-located to tap the Cummins engine plants on the east side of town. I keep hoping to find an historian familiar with the railroad story up there (68 miles north of Louisville). I'm currently too tied up with other, urgent projects to go up and investigate further. Maybe some of our brethren can field this question... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:26:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Old roundhouse at Columbus, Indiana X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/18/04 1:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dchaney1@mindspring.com writes: > Rick, A few of the retired PRR guys in the Columbus, Indiana area are > trying to get some info on the old roundhouse there, specifically > when it was built. They want to get a historical marker put there. > Any suggestions as to where other than the courthouse they might > look. Any help would be appreciated by them, specifically R.L. > Brown, retired conductor (hired on Jan.,1941). Thanks, Dave Chaney > Dave, Unfortunately, I'm not even sure where the roundhouse was -- remember, I moved to the area in 1972, roughly the time that all Columbus ops were moved to the "new" yard northwest of town, remaining "old" buildings were demolished (notably the Panhandle freight house, obviously a very old brick design), and a new mall was constructed. Columbus' relocation history has to be much more tortured than that, however. It happens that, of the few historical maps of Columbus I've uncovered/collected/copied, the track arrangements are different on each. Even a civic puff piece I picked up in the 70's doesn't look like today's track location -- Columbus Indiana keeps reinventing itself. I can only surmise from their alignments into town that, once upon a time, the five tracks into town (2 Louisville main, 2 PRR branches, 1 NYC branch) came together at one point. But the terminus of all this was later reached by reroutings that took the 2 Pennsy branches out of the center of town; after that stage, the Madison Branch came in the south end of the pre-70s yard, and the Cambridge City/Rushville/Shelbyville Branch came in the north end of that yard. I still haven't discovered what the NYC did, although it must have been well-located to tap the Cummins engine plants on the east side of town. I keep hoping to find an historian familiar with the railroad story up there (68 miles north of Louisville). I'm currently too tied up with other, urgent projects to go up and investigate further. Maybe some of our brethren can field this question... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:33:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: I can't let you off that lightly. In the challenge I state that I connected a siderod between two adjacent drivers. All other rods were removed from that side as well as ALL the rods from the other side. In other words, there was one siderod connecting two driver pairs - that's it. It can't get simpler. Regarding scaling factors. I work in an industry where we are quite familiar with scaling problems due to the laws of physics and this is not one of them. The experiment challenge stands. Bruce, I do need you opinion on this. Assume that the crank angle is 90.1 degrees (just passed 9:00). The siderod is actually tilted up a little bit. Wouldn't the rod try to push the connected driver backwards? Bill Box #366 > THE CHALLENGE! LET'S SETTLE THIS!!!! > > Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project > loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too > embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. > Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive > input on the S2. Sorry, you cannot model this with an old brass model. Your issues would more likely relate to quartering, and rod length. The margin of error in models is at least as great as that in the prototype, yet the overall lengths are orders of magnitude smaller vastly magnifying the defects. Although, it does pose interesting questions about how effective rods are at transmitting force to additional wheels in our models... maybe those 4-8-2s are really only pushing with 2 wheels half the time? Bill Box #366 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:15:45 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bruce--Great to hear from you. Comments inserted....... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 10:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 > > For Bill, Tom, Bruce and anyone else still holding on. For everyone else, > > don't fuss, just use the DELETE button. > > > > We seem to be nibbling around the edges of this. Maybe--hopefully--this, > > together with Bill's "lab exercise", will shed some light we can > > all see. > > Steve, > > As much as I respect and admire your knowledge of PRR steam, I'll have = to > continue to disagree here. Me emailer at home won't let me use your > message in this reply, so I'll try this without quoting you. > > The fatal flaw in your analysis is that you only evaluate the = horizontal > component of the force vector. As I hope you will agree, the force > produced by a gear driven drive wheel at the pin (no rod) is of = constant > magnitude and tangential to the wheel that that point. As the wheel > rotates, the horizontal AND vertical components of the force vector = vary > inversely. When the wheel is at 12:00 or 6:00 the horizontal = compontent > is equal to the entire force vector, and when the wheel is at 3:00 or > 9:00, the VERTICAL component is equal to the entire force vector. > Absolutely agree. > > Now add the rod and second axle. The rod is constrained. It is not > capable of any other path of motion that the constrained one. = Granted, > wear on the pin/rod bearing, and wheel bearings will alter this = slightly > thus I'm willing to concede that quartering might have helped when > bearings were worn. The rod translates circular motion to circular > motion. There is no translation to linear motion involved. Any fixed > point on the rod describes a CIRCLE (if the locomotive is on rollers). > Because the rod behaves in this manner, it responds to both the = vertical > and horizontal components of the force vector, and therefor see a > continuous force vector, tangential to the wheel, no matter the point = of > rotation. > Disregard wear. The rod does in fact follow a path of circular motion, = and it translates circular motion to circular motion. And since we are not considering the main rods, no conversion from/to linear motion. We have no disagreement at all concerning the MOTION of the siderod. = The MOTION of course is a result of the cycling horizontal and vertical components as you have described. However, the function of the rod is = to transfer the point of application of only the horizontal component of = FORCE from the driving crankpin to the second wheel's crankpin. It is simply = a moving pinned member bearing tension or compression forces with no = bending moment. Now we are having fun........ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:04:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to the Wayner 1950 list of Pullman cars, the number of mechanical/brine tank 12-1's had increased to 10 and there is one electro-mech car listed; Stephia. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add > By way of followup to my previous post on this subject, see > > http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_Sleeper_Car.htm > > According to this website a total of eight (a TINY minority) hvy wt 12-1 > Pullman sleepers of Plan 3410 had Mechanical/Brine A/C when sold to PRR > between 1945 and 1948. > > 'best, > Vagel Keller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 04:20:54 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 From: Subject: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 Cc: PRR-Talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:28:11 -0500 To: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 30, 2004, at 9:43 PM, Vagel C. Keller, Jr. wrote: > Second, with respect to the type of A/C on Pullmans in Pennsy livery > in service on Pennsy lines, when Pullman decided to upgrade its > sleeping car fleet in the mid-1930s, Tom Madden's review article on > Branchline's 12-1 Pullman kits (Oct 2005, Railmodel Journal), says > Pullman's standard was the electro/mechanical configuration (same as > comes with the Walthers RTR cars). But Madden goes on to say Pennsy > "preferred" Ice A/C. My sketchy research library doesn't have > anything in it that would allow me to say to the purist, "never say > never." > > Bottom line: if you're looking for a "typical" 12-1 in PRR service > ca. 1935 - 1960's, the Walthers offering is close enough for most, but > not totally correct for the car names it supplies in its packages. > The decision to do this in an RTR format is understandable, but > unfortunate. That said, I bought one ... it's a far cry better than my > 1968 Rivarossi James Logan! And I'm lazy enough in this sector of the > hobby in the context of my overall interests not to care about the > difference in undercarriage details, which probably is why I went with > an RTR offering in the first place. I'll just exchange knowing > glances with the 0.01% of visitors who know better. The Branchline 12-1's feature ice a/c. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] BLI K-4's Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:05:57 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Has anyone been able to confirm where the new BLI K-4's are being produced? China or Korea? Thanks to all for your response. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:30:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Chris: I don't disagree with Bruce that the force being transmitted by the gears to the axle of the S2 driver is constant. It is, absolutely. Further, I agree that the force at the crank pin is constant. It is, absolutely. I disagree ( I think this is Bruce's position ) that the force available to be transmitted along the horizontal plane of the siderod to the other driver ( not driven by a gear ) is either 1) constant or 2) varying but never zero. In either case, negating the need for quartering. I would like to sum up my position to clarify any confusion: 1. Force applied by the crank pin to the siderod is a function of the cosine of the crank angle where 0 degrees is rods down. That means the force is at its maximum at a crank angle of 0 and 180 degrees and the force is ZERO at a crank angle of 90 and 270 degrees 2. Two driver pairs, connected by one siderod (the other side has no siderod) will stall at 9:00 and 3:00 unless the "flywheel" effect allows the drivers to coast through those positions. The force available for the siderod to transfer at 9:00 and 3:00 is ZERO 3. Item 2 above is independent of how the force is applied 4. Two driver pairs connected by TWO siderods (one each side) that have drivers with identical crank angles, act like item 2 5. Two siderods with different crank angles must be used for there to be a no stall condition. The force can be graphed (even calculated) by graphing the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angles of the two siderods displaced by their difference in crank angles. If you do this, you will see that while quartering is not the only solution, it does give the smoothest force vs. crank angle curve available - a very good thing, indeed. You will also see that the only angles that will not work under any circumstances are ... ready? ... 0 and 180 degrees displacement. Maybe I have Bruce's position wrong. I have stated mine a number of times in various posts to make it crystal clear. In the interest of list harmony, I am thinking of not posting anymore on this subject. All interested parties are fine, honorable men who hold passionate views and are unlikely to be swayed by further arguments. It's clear that most of the group couldn't give a plugged nickel. I can't blame them. I have to get back to building my L2s in 1/32 scale. This intellectual stuff is taking it's toll on an almost atrophied part of my brain. I would ask you, though, to comment on my analysis sense you have, at least, done a free body diagram before. For you nasty of mind, a free body diagram has nothing to do with body painting at a '60s love in. Cheez! Bill Box #366 PS Chris: Please, please comment and thanks for the chance for me to use "plugged nickel" . No new posts, no new words BB Chris wrote: Hi yall- I have followed this because I thought it was interesting, stimulating and humorous. (I have not had to make a free body diagram since 1970 while at Penn State) I have to agree with Steve that the force applied to the side rod is axial within the siderod, varying between tension and compression depending on the wheel position because it is a link on pin (no bending moment as Steve said) I also have to agree with Bruce that because the S2 wheel is gear driven that the driving force on the wheel and the tangential forces on both the rail and the crank pin will be constant because forces transmitted thru an involute gear remain constant (vs a reciprocating piston drive which are not) I wish I knew 34 years ago that this stuff would have an application that was fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:30:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Chris: I don't disagree with Bruce that the force being transmitted by the gears to the axle of the S2 driver is constant. It is, absolutely. Further, I agree that the force at the crank pin is constant. It is, absolutely. I disagree ( I think this is Bruce's position ) that the force available to be transmitted along the horizontal plane of the siderod to the other driver ( not driven by a gear ) is either 1) constant or 2) varying but never zero. In either case, negating the need for quartering. I would like to sum up my position to clarify any confusion: 1. Force applied by the crank pin to the siderod is a function of the cosine of the crank angle where 0 degrees is rods down. That means the force is at its maximum at a crank angle of 0 and 180 degrees and the force is ZERO at a crank angle of 90 and 270 degrees 2. Two driver pairs, connected by one siderod (the other side has no siderod) will stall at 9:00 and 3:00 unless the "flywheel" effect allows the drivers to coast through those positions. The force available for the siderod to transfer at 9:00 and 3:00 is ZERO 3. Item 2 above is independent of how the force is applied 4. Two driver pairs connected by TWO siderods (one each side) that have drivers with identical crank angles, act like item 2 5. Two siderods with different crank angles must be used for there to be a no stall condition. The force can be graphed (even calculated) by graphing the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angles of the two siderods displaced by their difference in crank angles. If you do this, you will see that while quartering is not the only solution, it does give the smoothest force vs. crank angle curve available - a very good thing, indeed. You will also see that the only angles that will not work under any circumstances are ... ready? ... 0 and 180 degrees displacement. Maybe I have Bruce's position wrong. I have stated mine a number of times in various posts to make it crystal clear. In the interest of list harmony, I am thinking of not posting anymore on this subject. All interested parties are fine, honorable men who hold passionate views and are unlikely to be swayed by further arguments. It's clear that most of the group couldn't give a plugged nickel. I can't blame them. I have to get back to building my L2s in 1/32 scale. This intellectual stuff is taking it's toll on an almost atrophied part of my brain. I would ask you, though, to comment on my analysis sense you have, at least, done a free body diagram before. For you nasty of mind, a free body diagram has nothing to do with body painting at a '60s love in. Cheez! Bill Box #366 PS Chris: Please, please comment and thanks for the chance for me to use "plugged nickel" . No new posts, no new words BB Chris wrote: Hi yall- I have followed this because I thought it was interesting, stimulating and humorous. (I have not had to make a free body diagram since 1970 while at Penn State) I have to agree with Steve that the force applied to the side rod is axial within the siderod, varying between tension and compression depending on the wheel position because it is a link on pin (no bending moment as Steve said) I also have to agree with Bruce that because the S2 wheel is gear driven that the driving force on the wheel and the tangential forces on both the rail and the crank pin will be constant because forces transmitted thru an involute gear remain constant (vs a reciprocating piston drive which are not) I wish I knew 34 years ago that this stuff would have an application that was fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:19:04 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Ltd.Diners Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, According to my research, the following seems accurate. Any corrections or additions would be appreciated. Pre-1938 BL- D70 70' Diners #4420 & 4423 built by ACS in 1910. 1938 BL - D70bR, #4420 & 4423. These were 70' Diner-Lounge-Arched Roof, built by ACS in 1910. Converted from D70 to D70bR,4/38. 1939 BL- D82bR, #4505 & 4506. 85' Diners, built by Budd in1939, painted FOM over St.St.(Flute sides). 1949-1954 BL- D85cR 85' Diner Twin, #4618, 4620, 4622 Budd -St.St.(Slab) D85dR 85' Kitchen-Domitory Twin #4619, 4621, 4623 Budd PRR-St.St.(Slab) Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:10:20 -0800 (PST) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Steam era-buses X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have started a project this week, the Bachmann city scenes Bus station, and now I am looking for steam era buses for the station. Has anyone seen any steam era HO scale buses lately? I am looking for the ones from American Precision Models. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Knorek-Onysko" Subject: [PRR] CC&IC question Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:41:35 -0300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello to all- I got this request from a woman in CA: "What rail line would have transported my grandfather from Urbana, Ohio to Morgan Park, Illinois between 1884 and 1888? He was attending Baptist Union Theological Seminary during the week and preaching at the Baptist Church in Urbana on Sundays." Initial queries have found the CC&IC to be the carrier that most likely took him to/from Chicago. My questions are: What trains did he take? Transfers? Stations? ***Is there an online map of this route?*** Roger Rassche writes: "Baptist Union Theological Seminary is what we know as the University of Chicago now, so I guess we need to connect to IC somewhere on the South Side." I've gone to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/colchiindiana.html and got the skinny on the CC&IC (thanks ton & Jerry!), but I still have lots of questions. Thank you! Jeff Knorek-Onysko Bear River, Nova Scotia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Structure Roof Material Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:11:22 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, Basically, it's fancy tarpaper impregnated with rubbery tar and roofing granules. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material > List, > > Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans > of > the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, > or > other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is > the > following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green > "Ruberoid" > or Red "Paroid" roofing. > > Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? > > > BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent > Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) > A Penn Family Line > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 12:15:12 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Offerings Cc: "PRR-TALK" , From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::[PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:35:41 -0500 To: "Sam Vastano" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 5, 2004, at 2:15 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR > diesels. After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has > sparked my interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most > accurate model in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one > that I might have to add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 > plus for one that is exact I would probably go for the less expensive > one and do my own details. I thought this was discussed some time ago > but I am lazy and hate looking through the archives... Sam, I believe that the Highliners undec kit gives you the most options. These are basically the same castings used for the Athearn Genesis units. This shell can go on either the Athearn or Stewart drives (and perhaps the IM drive?). It is not in stock right now at Walthers but it is listed as Walthers Part # 328-1001, $49.95. I'm sure if you look around you can find some kits. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 14:33:51 +0000 >From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: carolynriggs@ij.net (TCJ Riggs), prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:20:56 -0500 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 9:59 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Tom: > > Check the latest issue of the Keystone for the Color Drift cards > available from the PRRT&HS. FCC post 1953 was one of the cards > available. I have no idea if it is still in stock. The FCC drift card reproduced by the PRRT&HS is one of the cards with which folks have taken issue. Chuck Blardone described the process of creating these cards and it wasn't pretty. At the time, a set of drift cards could not be borrowed from any PRRT&HS members, so one was borrowed from the NYCHS. These cards had suffered from serious oxidation in some cases. In addition, as Chuck related to the PRRT&HS Paint Committee in May, he made the color matches by eye, sitting outside in the shade (neutral lighting), because that was the best technology available at the time. These sets ARE a great reference, but recognize that they are neither "official drift cards" nor are they absolutely accurate with respect to color. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 20:07:35 -0500 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey Bruce! Bruce Smith wrote: > Hi Folks, > > BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post > - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message > %^) > I have no pain. I prefer getting 5 copies rather than none. The info on PRR-Talk is immensely satisfying to read. The collective knowledge is HUGE! And you want me to join another PRR group? I belong to too many now. I can't keep up with all the messages. However, as stated about multiples, the "delete" button is very easy to hit/click. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:04:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 8, 2004, at 09:56 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, > GS, > etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a > heavyweight > end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real > streamlined > cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for > postwar > P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif > PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif&sel > =coa&sz=sm&fr> &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= Great opportunity here for an N scale manufacturer to take the American Limited core kit and cut down the roof and floor, fix the ends of the roof appropriately, and create new resin parts. Would be applicable to P70k, P70gs, PLC70, and at last the four diners that I mentioned yesterday. If you've got the capability to do this, but don't want to market it, talk to me off-list, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:35:59 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dominic: Most people do run their sound systems WAY too loud... I personally have sound in at least 1/2 of my locomotives and have the volume levels turned down so they are not overpowering... This is easy to do on all sound decoders I am aware of. At a proper level, I find sound to add something to the operation of a layout. Especially when crews correctly (prototypically) use the bell, whistle, etc. My 2 cents worth... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:38:45 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] block limit signs Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all: Can anybody tell me where I can find a picture of a circa mid-1950's PRR block limit sign (or have a .JPG they can send off-list)? I'm looking for one as described in S-464-C and S-464-G on Rob's PRR site which is a post with block name and a red and yellow light... These 2 documents describe them well, but I'd like to see a picture. I did find a 1968 and 2001 (LIRR) picture on the web, but neither is exactly what is described in these documents. I am asking for modeling purposes. Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: MLiebeskin@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Whistle signals Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:44:42 -0400 To: PKMac101@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 10, 2004, at 11:14 AM, PKMac101@aol.com wrote: > Do you have a 1956 Book of Rules? Page 19 & 20 give > the all > the whistle signals. It may be listed somewhere in Jerrys site of > KEYSTONE > CROSSINGS,but I could not find it. Document section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:50:14 -0500 To: Alex Charyna X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 11, 2004, at 7:35 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in > them. > > http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html > > Does anyone have any idea what they are? > > It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye > on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like > that. A tell-tale mast? (although why 2 is a question) Any clearance issues around, like an overpass? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:13:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:01:12 -0400 To: "Paul & Dot" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 12, 2004, at 7:51 PM, Paul & Dot wrote: > I've been trying to access the society's web page but I keep getting > site not found. Is the society's web still not working? Any idea of > when it will be fixed? It's been down for several weeks now. Not only is the web site gone, but the DNS records are as well. Society president reported it was supposed to be fixed by this past weekend but it wasn't. Keystone Crossings has links to the eStore and Discussion Web which still work... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrths/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:24:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR modules From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 09:12 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will > build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I > retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that > either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in > HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. > That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any > thoughts or suggestions? Those rail joints are only going to be flush at the ends if you keep your track exactly straight. I suspect you'll want some curves/wave to the main line. A straight main line all the way around will look "toyish". Nothing wrong with modules, but unless you plan to interface with a club with modular requirements, I'd let the track flow anywhere on the modules. But you won't have flush ends of rail then. Good luck! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:09:36 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Plates Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Web Page Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:40:24 -0400 To: Philip Taylor X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:24 PM, Philip Taylor wrote: > I have several of the pages of the society stored in cache including > the main page, national page, TKM page and August isssue of the TKM in > html I have all of the TKM's in PDF. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:36:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, Looking in the 1945 CT1000,page 184 shows W to include all points served in the Williamsport yd. There are no individual reporting marks for each customer. I don't know exactly how the numbers and letters were used for shipping cars but it appears that the reporting marks or numbers got the car to the yard or setoff point and then the local shifting crew (knowing the yd or local shifting area), using a shift list from the yardmaster, would spot the car on the customers sdg,company delivery or public delivery track so the items shipped could be unloaded. There are some people out there that can better explain its use but I don't think you will find anything for individual spot IDs. Pat McKinney Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:26:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff, The cars marked "Merchandise Service" were used to transport Less Than Carload (LCL) freight between freight houses and were generally used on line. PRR had special trains between major yards that handled LCL and Freight Forwarder traffic and were designated LCL-#. Not all LCL freight moved in "Merchandise Service" cars, but they were used almost entirely to handle LCL freight. Since LCL was often interchanged in "ferry cars" moving in switching service between freight houses of each railroad at junction points, these cars rarely if ever left the PRR. LCL traffic from and to smaller cities and towns moved in regular freights, and usually in regular boxcars, too. After PRR dropped LCL in 1964-5, the cars were used in general service until repainted. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Smith" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Merchandice Service > Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? Where > the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could they be > found on any train? > > Thanks, > > > Jeff Smith > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 10:38 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the > forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is > being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be > announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's > their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or > is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell I've just been privately notified that they've been sold to another well-known and Pennsy-friendly manufacturer! I'm sure the announcement will be made public VERY SOON. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:01:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I browsed this book at Des Plaines Hobbies and will buy it some payday. Best shot to me is the one of an E-unit running backwards pulling a local freight. Talk about lack of visibility! Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:13 AM Subject: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" Public Service Announcement... "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Vol. 4: Louisville to Washington, D.C." by David Sweetland. "This, the most recent volume in the color pictorial series, showcases the P Company's operations between Louisville and Washington D.C. from the 1950's up to the Penn Central merger. You'll see the last vestiges of the PRR's proud steam fleet, a plethora of first and second generation diesel models, GG-1 and E44 electrics, and more. You even get a bonus chapter that features a complete look at Alco and Baldwin road switchers used by the PRR. 128 pages, 290 color photos, 8½"x 11", hardcover. SRP $59.95." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA numbers .... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:27:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A units: 5750A - 5759A B units: 5750B - 5758B even numbers only Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael hmel" To: "PRR-Talk list" Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: [PRR] PA numbers .... Hello , I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website with pic's of PRR PA's . I'm repainting a set ( ABA ) of Willaims PA's and although I have the Microscale diagrams I wanted to check on the road numbers assigned . Thanks , Mike Hmel Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net E-bay : iron*mah ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:20:26 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill and Sam:=20 The Pennsy never owned SD-24's. However, they may have tested a = demonstrator of a SD-24. It would be in EMD markings though. The Pennsy did test GP-20's and SD-40X's but all were painted in EMD. = Other demonstators that were caught on film on the Pennsy include = RS-27's and C-628's, both of which they ordered. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sam Vastano=20 To: 'Bill Daniels'=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Thank Bill, I didn't think they had them but I was not positive... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Sam... AS they say the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. But the answer to yours is simply no. The Pennsy never bought the SD24. Don't believe everything that IHC (or other manufacturers) say.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: mirzaking@peoplepc.com, PRR-talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:12:38 -0500 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rob, Mirza, The S2, having no reciprocating machinery had what were called "perfectly balanced" drivers, where the only force needing balancing was the rod that connected the drivers. In addition, the geared nature of the direct drive removed any additional need for quartering. Thus, it is my understanding that the S2 was not quartered. In a discussion just a few weeks ago, a photo series was cited that does seem to confirm this. So, barring evidence to the contrary, go with no quartering (and of course, a left hand lead on all your other PRR steamers) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Oct 25, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Got this e-mail from my website.. Can anyone help Mirza out? I'm > guessing > they'd be quartered but don't really know... Please make sure you > include > mirza in any replies... > > Rob > http://prr.railfan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mirza Kolakovic [mailto:mirzaking@peoplepc.com] > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:22 PM > To: robs@railfan.net > Subject: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive > > > Hi Rob, > > I need your help with facts on S2 #6200 locomotive. I am trying to > find out > if drive wheels on both sides were in faze or shifted quarter of a > turn? I > have Lionel locomotive 2020 that I took apart for cleaning. Before I > put it > together I want to know how originally wheels were placed. > My friend is telling me that true steamers (with cylinders) had > quarter of a > turn difference between wheels on each side but this being a turbine > locomotive this was not the case. In other words, when lefts side > wheels are > at TDC - right side wheels are also at TDC. > Is this right? > > I tried searching for pictures of both sides taken at the same time on > the > same S2 but no success. Could you help me with this. Its has been > bothering > me a lot for some reason. > > Thanks. > Mirza Kolakovic > Detroit, MI > USA > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:04:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Steve, Train leaves Harrisburg at 8:30 or so; returns @ 4:30, so I'd guess around half-time, or long about 12:30. To be safe I'd get there by 11:00 or so - lots of action, although Sat. not so much and it's all about the same on the mainline. Take a scanner and perhaps the dispatcher will give you some clues. As I remember, the NC from Perryville north is NS, so be sure to set freq for both. With today's super fast scanners, I just set mine to scan all RR freq's - goes through them all in 2-3 secs. As far as I know, I've not missed anything. I'll be on the train, so if you send me your cell phone #, I can keep you advised of our progress. Anyone know whether Bennett's new car, Little Juniata Rapids, will be along on the trip? Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. > Greetings to everyone, > By chance, does anyone know when the PRR E's with special will be going > through Perryville, MD on Sat? > Thank you! > Steve panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale PRR From: Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:33:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:14:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Scale Houses From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] SD9 Use Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:50:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The recent talk about SDs prompts this question. I am repainting and lettering two SD9s for the PRR from the 25 numbered 7600-7625. How would they have been used compared to the vastly greater number of GP9s? Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:01:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Pullmans From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 09:37 AM, Park Varieties wrote: > Our initial shipment of Walthers 12-1 Pullmans arrived this morning > and included cars for Pennsy, Pullman pool and NYC. All cars have > electro-mechanical A/C and top equalized trucks. I know there was > some talk that the A/C system components would be railroad-specific > and installed by the buyer but such is not the case. The decal sheet > has 32 names for Pennsy cars - twice the number for any other railroad > or Pullman pool. > On a quick once-over the cars look very nice and the trucks roll well > but not great. It will remain to be seen if Pennsy modelers will buy > these cars and run them as-is or opt to change the A/C system to ice > or just stick with the Branchline cars. I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 yet, but the Branchline 12-1's came in earlier this week and they are every bit as beautiful as the previous 8-1-2's. They do have ice a/c and three car names (pre-painted) are offered. I have an 8-1-2 on the workbench right now and a 12-1 will follow. (Yes, I am still a closet HO modeler!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Conventions Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:46:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <12f.4ef94e6a.2eb3e1cc@aol.com> X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.29.1 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The convention was in Altoona at least twice in the 90's... Of course it's been at Camp Hill many more! Some other recent locations that I can remember... Cincinnatti Philly Wilmington Baltimore Pittsburgh Camp Hill ... many times! Lancaster (before my time) Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cprrboss@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Conventions Hello Folks, I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my question, why hasn't anybody mentioned Altoona? I was convention chairman for the MER hosted NMRA three region convention in Altoona in October 2000. We had a great convention. There is a lot to do in the Altoona/Greater Altoona area for "non-rails" and I won't even mention what to do for us SPF's. I would think that the Museum staff would welcome us and I know the Chamber of Commerce would. Local transportation was great (I chartered the local bus company to run shuttles and back and forth to the Museum as well as a trip to Johnstown. There is adequate AMTRAK service as well excellent road network to the area. Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing about and of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told me has been spruced up a bit. So, how come nothing has been mentioned about Altoona. Bob Martin York, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:15:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <200410291956.i9TJuMh22579@smtp-bedford.mitre.org> Thread-index: AcS9UkGsxRE/SCCdQ8y9dIGUqW2LkQAnpwkQAACnGEA= Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, Guys, I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that have described specific RR dining car history (e.g. Northern Pacific, Southern Pacific, NY and New Haven) but I haven't found one, or a magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone know of such a source? Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 11:59 AM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Thrust reversers Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:42:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com That's correct, but I didn't want to go into it since this thread was (is) about the PRR S2! Steve D. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: [PRR] Thrust reversers > In a message dated 10/29/04 1:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >> 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) &the >> reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not >> designed to fly in reverse! >> > > I'm not sure any turbines are designed to reverse. Aircraft turbines > don't > reverse. Their "thrust reversers" reroute the exhaust forward, giving > braking > thrust. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy handrails are distinctive X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:38:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > types used here. Hi Earl, Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted to last into this era. 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle the > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot under their outside sheathing. 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding and scrapping in the '30s. 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures and parts to save money. 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue to operate with the cupola they preferred. > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > Earl Myers > Canton District in HO, 1944 > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. After all, this was glorious steam! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy handrails are distinctive In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:37:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy handrails are distinctive In a message dated 9/30/04 1:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR_6536_E5s@isp.com writes: > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get > > to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash > tapes > -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. > > Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > Hi Rick We met in Cincy. Just a quick note to say "what handrails"? Like the ones the PRR put on all kinds of locos and cabins for communication? LOL -- Morgan Bilbo Hi Morgan, Thanks for the kind words on the "Lines West" rolling stock note. You're thinking of low-frequency-induction-train-phone antenna structures, which were not intended to be handrails. PRR had a distinctive standard handrail stanchion that was used with pipe to form safety handrails where needed along its right-of-way. These were (and still are) evident all over the system -- for example, long stretches of them protect both sides of the elevated tracks (4 and more wide) of Dayton Union Station. In fact, at least two model manufacturers have sold versions of these (I bought one set in brass once). We PRR fans have long suspected that the 3-rail version was provided where the public needed to be protected, and the 2-rail version where employees went. A little archive diving could probably come up with the plans and the formal name of these "fences". To me, these distinctive handrails say "Pennsy" as readily as Mr. Brown's stone arch bridges, or position light signals. As the message above relates, I think I remember them at one end of Lincoln Park Yard in Detroit. I also believe they were used on and around the Rockville Bridge across the Susquehanna. I'll bet our listmates can easily tell you of places other than Dayton/Xenia/Columbus/Indianapolis/Louisville where these were used to protect personnel and passengers -- probably everywhere west of the Hudson River tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 01:38:03 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > Rick; > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > types used here. Hi Earl, Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted to last into this era. 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle the > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot under their outside sheathing. 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding and scrapping in the '30s. 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures and parts to save money. 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue to operate with the cupola they preferred. > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > Earl Myers > Canton District in HO, 1944 > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. After all, this was glorious steam! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Bay-Window Brick Interlocking Tower Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 06:46:59 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Mount Vernon Shops is pleased to announce that for the=20 first time in HO a standard 8-20 Machione Bay-Window Brick=20 Interlocking tower is being Produced based on blueprints,=20 photographs and actual measurement of the existing tower=20 style.=20 This kit features a flemish-bond brickwork pattern=20 unavilible anywhere else in HO scale. Also included are an=20 optional foundation for hillside placement. The kit is=20 made of laser cut and engraved acrylic and its assembly is=20 like that of a plastic building while, having the detail=20 of a resin kit. A first-run of 100 is planned so order yours today. For more information please visit www.mountvernonshops.com=20 O & N scalers, this tower will sonn be availible in your=20 scale too. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:53:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Mr. Rick and others: If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's? as early as the 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at least one from the era just after the facility opened...) My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in everything else because of light track and light finances. Just as Crestline was a dead-end for big power, Delmarva was the last refuge for little power (last steam Class D, old sharks, old Baldwin switchers, etc.) Jim McDaniel, who prefers the look of the N6 to the N5 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 07:53:03 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mr. Rick and others: If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's? as early as the 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at least one from the era just after the facility opened...) My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in everything else because of light track and light finances. Just as Crestline was a dead-end for big power, Delmarva was the last refuge for little power (last steam Class D, old sharks, old Baldwin switchers, etc.) Jim McDaniel, who prefers the look of the N6 to the N5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:58:56 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 1, 2004, at 6:53 AM, James L. McDaniel wrote: > Mr. Rick and others: > > If Lines West built N6a and N6b and Lines East built N5's, how did > Delmarva --Lines South?-- wind up with so many N6b's?=A0 as early as = the > 30's. (A photo of Little Creek yard in the N&P Beltline book shows at > least one from the era just after the facility opened...) > > My assumption is that Delmarva got leftovers in cabins as in=20 > everything > else because of light track and light finances.=A0 Jim, Wasn't Delmarva the home of most of the NDA conversions too (ND stuck=20 on trucks)? As for bobbers, a fair number were still around at least=20 through the end of WWII in revenue service. Post war shots include the=20= Octoraro branch as well as other locations... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:06:31 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 1, 2004, at 12:38 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was > to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center > cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars > were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, > though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. > Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, > the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and > once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car > structures > and parts to save money. I believe that there is a photo of an N6b with a built date around 1942 in either Color Guide 1 or 2... Multiple explanations exist including new construction on a stored underframe, a newly rebuilt ND, and a dyslexic painter SInce WWII was a period of intense cabin car shortage, I favor the first explanation. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS meeting Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:12:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Chicago Chapter will be having our next regularly scheduled meeting on Saturday October 23 in the Pullman Visitor Center at 2:00PM. John Sheets will be presenting a program on the Mt. Carmel ore run. Anyone who will be in the area is welcome to attend. If you need further information please feel free to contact me off list. Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:14:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... I plead ignorance on the NDa question...Jim McD ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:14:20 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I plead ignorance on the NDa question...Jim McD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Keystones to trade? Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:30:53 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.1.2 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, I have dupes of some Keystones. Does any one have any to trade? There aren't too many issues I need but figured it's worth a try. I have dupes of Vol 12 #3 (Sept 1979), Vol 13 #1 (March 1980), Vol 16 #3 (Sept 1983) Volumes I need are Vol 10 (1977) #1,2,3,4 -- Vol 11 (1978) #1,2,3,4 -- Vol 13 (1980) #3,4 -- Vol 15 (1982) #1,2 or Vol 16 (1983) # 2 Or if you don't have any to trade but are selling any of the issues I need, I'm open to purchasing them... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 06:12:49 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > In a message dated 9/30/04 12:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > > > Rick; > > Thanks! This helps a lot (was a referal from Bruce Smith) I did forget to > > mention the era which is summer of 1944. Regarding Cabins, would there have > > been many cabins here other than the N6a and N6b? Possiblely NDs on branches > > ?(I am talking about the Eastern div of the Western Region specifically). I > > know N5c were started in 42 and Central/Eastern Regions then but some coulda > > drifted here maybe? My point is I am having a hard time pinning down Cabin > > types used here. > > Hi Earl, > > Cabin assignments are tough -- I only know of the one cabin assignment list > (1955?) on the web. However, If I were you, I would assume: > 1. Local jobs on the ED used N6b's (the N6a's had virtually been wiped out by > retirement or rebuilding to N6a's by '44). Assume that you would see N5 and > N5c cabins on through trains (it's your call whether they should all be > lettered for Pittsburgh Divison/Central Region). > 2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer refitted > to last into this era. > 3. Lacking better info, I'd co-opt any cabin assigned on the later list, as > long as it had been built (this excludes N8's). > > The Ft.Wayne N6 was the more square and centered cupola and the Panhandle > the > > tapered side and rearward unit? I know they made them from two NDs > > sometimes centering the cupola and sometimes not. > > 1. Company records seem to indicate that each N6 was rebuilt from ONE wooden > 4-wheel cabin (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson have done a lot of research on > this, enough to be sure that the records on this are not always to be trusted > ). The steel frames were all bought (from Standard Steel Car?) and > distributed around Lines West to anywhere wood cars were rebuilt (not just to the big > car shops). If the bobber was set on the end of the car (and one wall was > moved out), you got an end-cupola. If the bobber was centered, both ends were > moved out, giving you a center cupola car. I think that the number of different > locations doing this work is key to the fact that the N6 bodies varied a lot > under their outside sheathing. > > 2. Notice you never hear of "N6" as a class that was actually built. Fort > Wayne's favored cupola design was a big rectangular, almost "wide vision" > cupola, and was in use on 4-wheelers before the N6 came along. The rebuilds with > this cupola became the N6a class. Fort Wayne had the clearances for this, and > it helped see around boxcars that were already starting to grow taller. > > 3. The Panhandle, by comparison, had to run through 10 tunnels between > Pittsburgh and Dennison (OH). So its bobbers had a narrower cupola tapering > upwards from carbody width, with a deeply curved roof, reflecting the clearances on > this route. I think you'll find the front and back walls of the cupola were > vertical; they may include a door to give access to the roof. The same > Panhandle cupolas were of course retained on each N6 rebuild, yielding the N6b class. > > 4. I have an unconfirmed theory that the cupola assembly was like a module > -- thus, when it was determined that all the Fort Wayne N6a's needed to be > refitted to fit through tunnels on the Panhandle and elsewhere, the "a" cupola was > taken off and the "b" cupola was substituted. Note again this is only a > hypothesis at this point. I think N6a's started to get scarce due to rebuilding > and scrapping in the '30s. > > 5. Apparently, some N6b's were built new (1926?). Some say this was to use > up the steel underframes left over. Some say these were all center cupola > cars, and this might be true. Some say all the center cupola cars were from this > build (I believe rebuild dates on photos probably disproves this, though). > Or all three of these assertions could just be railfan mythology. Mostly, > these questions are a good subject for more research. In any case, the mass of N6 > cabins were rebuilds (sometimes rebuilt more than once or twice), and once > more show the lengths the PRR system would go to to re-use old car structures > and parts to save money. > > 6. Finally, Lines West was rebuilding woodies in 1914, at the very same time > that Lines East was building N5 steel cabins. I think Tom Vondruska has > demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt this was because the 1913 floods took so > much cash out of the Lines West companies. I agree that Lines West had to do > this because they were in financial trouble and the rebuilds were cheaper. But I > also suspect that this let each of the two Lines West organizations continue > to operate with the cupola they preferred. > > > One other thing, the orange or red decks/roofs on the locomotives and > > tenders, was that more prominent on lines west locos?? > > Earl Myers > > Canton District in HO, 1944 > > > > I have no idea about the decks and roofs. Most all pix of the era are B&W, > and "practices" just don't get recorded the way "standards" do. Anyway, logic > suggests that these areas got dirty (read grimy black) fairly fast. When I > was selling Jack Fravert's builder plates and number plates, you just wouldn't > believe how much soot was still on them, 40 years or more after scrapping. > After all, this was glorious steam! > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] Rail fest activity list .... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:22:56 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List , I am looking for a schedule or list of events at Railfest this weekend = ...but i can't seem to find any complete info. Does anyone have a good = address for info....... Thanks , Mike Hmel =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:11:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jamie Bothwell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [151.197.192.173] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:11:32 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 1, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Incidently, all the N6a's were rebuilt into N6b's in > the early 1940's. Bill and All, I have a copy of a 1957 cabin car assignment sheet that lists N6a 980229 still assigned to the Northwestern Region. The specific assignment is listed as "Chicago". Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:51:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Well,what can I say? Long time ago I (thought) I > learned never to say never, always, and other > all-inclusive statements when refering to the PRR. > > Anyone out there know if the 980229 really was a N6a? > Or was it a typo on the assignment sheet? No, probably not a typo. We've discussed this car on PRR-talk before, and it appears to have been a real survivor... but the only one of the N6A class. Photos are rare to non-existent however, and it definitely represents an "oddball". BTW, for those who find themselves with too many Quality/Gloor Craft N6A cabin kits , you can always use the parts to build either ND bobbers, or NDA cabins, both of which outlasted the N6A by a number of years... Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:59:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Any word on when this engine will hit the shelves? Right now they are listed as Winter 04, but on a German site they are listed as Sping 2005. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:26:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I sold my half -completed Quality/Gloor Craft N6A kit when I picked up a brass for a good price. Though my mainline running is at at a club, I rationalize that,since I model the roster of the Chicago Division, I can own one N6A in 1950+/- :-). If you guys had said that roster item was a misprint, you would have ruined my weekend :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > BTW, for those who find themselves with too many Quality/Gloor Craft N6A > cabin kits , you can always use the parts to build either ND bobbers, > or NDA cabins, both of which outlasted the N6A by a number of years... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:42:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:21:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-MODELING" Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 7:42 PM Subject: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 > Because the Society's Website is still down the October 2004 TKM is > temporarily presented in PDF format only at the following URL: > > > > http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 21:29:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 From: don Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:47:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.41.111.232] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:47:58 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gnome PDF viewer in Linux opens the TKM PDF file too. Don Murphy On Sat, 2004-10-02 at 21:29, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? > > Right click and "save as" > > Then open in acrobat reader directly. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM No. 15 October 2004 From: don Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:47:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.41.111.232] at Sat, 2 Oct 2004 20:47:58 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gnome PDF viewer in Linux opens the TKM PDF file too. Don Murphy On Sat, 2004-10-02 at 21:29, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Bob Zoeller wrote: > > > Al, for some reason, I get nothing when I click on this link. Anyone else? > > Right click and "save as" > > Then open in acrobat reader directly. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6b in alternate universes? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b in alternate universes? In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:51:15 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b in alternate universes? In a message dated 10/2/04 7:31:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:26:22 -0500 > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Subject: Re: N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > There is a shot in Fiebelman's Rails to Pittsburgh (p.23) of an I1 with a 4 > wheel cabin at Wilmerding. No year on that specific shot, but great > majority of surrounding photos in that publication in that location were > 1948. > > Bob Zoeller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > >2. I wonder if the ND or any 4-wheel cabin survived, other than in work > >train service, as late as '44 -- perhaps a stray NDa as a token old-timer > refitted > >to last into this era. > Thanks Bob, All I can say is "well, I wondered". We need a lot more info on cabin cars than I've come across as yet. One thing I do know is that when you start talking about nailing down hard facts on cabins, the PRRT&HS' best researchers start shaking their heads sadly. It isn't just that there are holes in the records -- there are also records that disagree with each other. That's one reason serious students of the Pennsy have stayed away from writing Keystone articles on the N6b -- if you believe the records, the Pennsy was operating in alternate universes. Hypothesis -- some of the records were "constructed" instead of "recorded". Figure that out... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:27:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > Rick, > > This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a website > that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an authoritative > source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black and > white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my 15-year-old N > scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > Tom Riggs Tom, Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL torched my "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply the URL for that website... At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources available, on or off the magic wire... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 07:52:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The 1957 cabin car roster/assignments have been available for years on my Keystone Crossings web site. The URL to the database is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ . It's been mentioned frequently on the PRR-talk list, but perhaps this is new news to those that are only on the FAX list. There are also the following searchable databases on Keystone Crossings: * Steam locomotive roster (does not yet include renumberings) * Diesel locomotive roster * Electric locomotive roster * Passenger equipment (1954) (working on photo references now) * Periodicals (Keystone, TKM, The Pennsy, Pennsy Journal, Rails Northeast, etc.) On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 07:27 AM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a >> website >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an >> authoritative >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black >> and >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my >> 15-year-old N >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. >> >> Tom Riggs > > Tom, > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched my > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the URL > for that website... > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > available, on or off the magic wire... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:49:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] How Was RailFest? From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <95675922-1614-11D9-BDC0-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone on the list go? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 13:37:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Jerry and the List: Being based at the museum for most of the weekend as a speaker, I did not get out to the Horseshoe Curve venue, where a horn and whistle group was set up, but can report on the in-town doings and Tyrone excursions. The centerpiece of the event at the museum was the PRR E8s that Bennett and Eric Levin had brought to display in the museum yard, along with the Warrior Ridge and PRR 120. Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks Narrows (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). On both days, a steady line of visitors formed to tour the cab of the 5711, and the horn was blown quite liberally. Ken Briers' 1950 Ford F-1 pickup painted for PRR MoW service was on display in the museum yard on Saturday. Artist Peter Lerro, a veteran of many PRRT&HS conventions and Pennsy Days events, was set up at a display inside the museum both days. Shuttle buses circulated continuously between the museum and HSC. The train show in the adjacent mall was many orders of magnitude larger than I remember it being in the past, with many dealers, plus two very large modular model-railroad layouts, one in HO scale and one in N scale, being set up in vacant storefronts. Weather was cloudy-bright overcast on Saturday, with rain holding off until 5:30 pm (closing time was 6); and a gorgeous, clear sunny autumn day on Sunday. This was the first time Railfest was held at three sites (HSC, museum, Tyrone excursions) adn one result was that the crowd tended to be spread out and did not have the feeling of being as large as in the past, but the museum's gift-shop sales were actually close to what they had been last year. Another reason that it did not feel crowded this year compared to previous years was that when the Altoona-based HSC excursions were operated, most ticketholders arrived at the museum beforehand, creating a temporary surge before proceeding to the nearby train station. With the absence of shop tours and HSC excursions, NS had no presence at the event, which is to my knowledge the first time that either Conrail or NS has not participated in Railfest. The Nittany & Bald Eagle RR excursions from Tyrone to Port Matilda ran flawlessly. Consist was North Shore GP38 2004 (ex-CR) painted in EL colors with commemorative 20-year NSHR anniversary markings on the east end, then former CR technical car 20 (ex-Pullman 10-6 sleeper Chicopee Falls, built for use on NYC, later owned by, I believe, in succession Alco and EMD; current configuration is lounge/HEP power car), now painted for PRR and named Spirit of Sunbury; ex-CR baggage car 23 (ex-NYC heavyweight, now painted for PRR); three ex-EL MU commuter coaches (now painted for PRR); PRR N8 478044; and NSHR GP8 1602. Trips ran multiple times each day, and many trips were sold out. Car hosts were members of the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, NRHS. The museum set up a sales area and a ticket sales point adjacent to the Tyrone boarding area (this was across the street from the Amtrak boarding platform). The Tyrone Area Historical Society and others from Tyrone served as very accommodating hosts; other vendors/exhibitors, including an antique car display, were set up in the area. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > Anyone on the list go? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 13:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:37 PM, Dan Cupper wrote: > Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 > Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks Narrows > (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). What level of restoration are these cars in? Thanks for the report, Dan! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:53:34 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] How Was RailFest? -- FoM cars and a correction Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton wrote: > On Monday, October 4, 2004, at 01:37 PM, Dan Cupper wrote: > >> Also open for the public were the Harbor Springs (1938 >> Pullman-Standard FoM lounge built for the Broadway) and Jacks >> Narrows (1938 Pullman-Standard FoM observation built for the "Spirit."). > > > What level of restoration are these cars in? > Greetings to Jerry and the List: Pretty much the way they were in Philipsburg -- interiors are partly restored (the part that is restored is very nice) but with lighting that works, and the exteriors are unrestored. Also, a note on my previous post -- I erred in labeling the excursion-assigned GP8 1602 as NSHR, it is NBER. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:15:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Wait one--I meant cupolas are yellow. The cabin roofs are black. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: "Fred in Vt." ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > All, > > I thank Jerry for the referral to the website with the 1957 cabin car > assignments. It is an excellent reference. Many of you have know the > reference for some time, but I am new to the list. His data base confirms > that my N8 and N5b cabins with radio would have been on the Pittsburgh > Division in about 1956--the period I am focusing on. The number on my brass > N scale N8 was actually assigned to that division with antennae--confirming. > I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted > Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. > Both have yellow cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, > despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I > should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The > roof color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from > what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale > re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. > What are your thoughts? > > Tom Riggs > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred in Vt." > To: ; ; > ; ; > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > Guys, > > Were you thinking of Jerry's keystone crossings? There is a > > searchable data base for cabins on the site. > > Fred > > NE Chapter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: ; ; > > ; ; > > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 7:27 AM > > Subject: [PennsyWest] Re: [PRR] N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths... > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/2/04 6:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > carolynriggs@ij.net writes: > > > > > >> Rick, > > >> > > >> This interesting discussion leads me to ask where you have found a > > >> website > > >> that contains circa-1955 cabin car assignments. Is there an > > >> authoritative > > >> source on paint, numbering, etc? I have seen a bewildering--if black > and > > >> white--diversity in Pennsy cabin cars, and am not sure if my > 15-year-old > > >> N > > >> scale brass N5b and N8 are accurate. > > >> > > >> Tom Riggs > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > Judging from the online traffic, it must be 1957 assignments. AOL > torched > > > my > > > "Favorite Places" file a while back, so maybe someone else can supply > the > > > URL > > > for that website... > > > > > > At this writing, I'm unsure of any other "cabin assignment" resources > > > available, on or off the magic wire... > > > > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > > > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > > > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > > > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > > > > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:17:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Southcentral Pennsylvania Layout Tour From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9136B7CB-16C8-11D9-9E31-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Early announcement... The Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR), a co-op of layout owners in southcentral Pennsylvania, is pleased to announce its "First Annual SVMR Layout Tour", November 12-14, 2004. No fewer than 8 layouts will be open over three days in the greater Harrisburg - York - Lancaster area. The public is invited to attend these open houses during Model Railroading Month and there is no admission charge to any of the venues. The tour guide may be viewed at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/200411_svmr.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:27:48 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Tom Riggs wrote: "I remain unsure about accurate painting, etc. Both cabins are painted Tuscan red with a large shadow keystone and no "Pennsylvania" lettering. Both have yellow [cupolas and black] cabin roofs. I think, from the pictures I have seen, despite one picture of a large shadow keystone with no lettering, that I should add the name of the railroad--probably with overhead stripe. The [cupola] color may be acceptable as cabins assigned to various divisions from what I have been told. I am interested in accuracy, but not wholesale re-painting, as long as I get arguable period accuracy, not prevalence. What are your thoughts?" Tom, it sounds like you are getting the various cabin car paint schemes confused. The paint scheme being applied to cabin cars during 1956 was the Shadow Keystone scheme as shown on this Class N5 cabin: http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr477769ald.jpg The large "PENNSYLVANIA" DOES NOT receive an overhead stripe. >From your description, it soulds like the "large shadow keystone with no lettering scheme" is in fact the later Plain Keystone lettering scheme introduced in 1961, as shown on Juniata Terminal's restored N5C: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=n5c_477863_whippany.jpg&fr= It sounds like your models are painted in PK, which makes them too late for your 1956 time period. Simply adding the large "PENNSYLVANIA" roadname is only a stopgap, as the PK Keystone and the car numerals are different from those in the SK paint scheme. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cabin car travels Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:04:02 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As long as the subject of cabin cars has been prominant lately I have a couple of questions. How frequently did cabin cars leave the region for which they were marked? Would you see one or more marked Eastern Region in Chicago or Lines West and vice versa? Can I use this as a way to indicate where a train originated or is headed while travelling through Philly? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:33:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, or other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is the following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green "Ruberoid" or Red "Paroid" roofing. Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:33:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, or other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is the following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green "Ruberoid" or Red "Paroid" roofing. Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:41:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Structure Colors From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <10508923-16E5-11D9-9A02-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For the 1950's, what would be the correct drift card color names for structure exterior walls and doors? I have a bunch of drift cards, but I am unsure of what era they apply to. If anyone has a source for this information and would care to summarize, I'll add it to Keystone Crossings. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:50:16 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Schemes c. 1956 (was N6 thoughts, hypotheses, and myths...) Tom Riggs wrote: "Can anyone tell me what the cupola colors were--or a range of designs--for the Pittsburgh area circa 1956?" Cupola color depends on the assignment of that particular cabin. Remember, the yellow (or gray) cupolas were assigned to cabins in pool service. Cabins assigned within a particular divsion would have black roofs and cupolas. See "PRR Cabin Painting Lettering.pdf" at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/files/ for more specific information. "I can't tell from the N5 picture whether it is Tuscan with black roof or not." This cabin is Freight Car Color (NOT Tuscan) with black roof and cupolas. Late FCC is a redder shade than that used during the 1920s-1940s. "It will be easy enough to replace the larger PKs with smaller keystones and "Pennsylvania" decals, but I want to get the cupolas right, too." Don't forget the car numerals. The PK car numerals are much larger than those in the SK scheme. Ben Hom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] BLI Offerings Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] BLI Offerings From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:15:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR diesels. = After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has sparked my = interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most accurate model = in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one that I might have to = add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 plus for one that is = exact I would probably go for the less expensive one and do my own = details. I thought this was discussed some time ago but I am lazy and = hate looking through the archives... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:15:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR diesels. = After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has sparked my = interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most accurate model = in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one that I might have to = add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 plus for one that is = exact I would probably go for the less expensive one and do my own = details. I thought this was discussed some time ago but I am lazy and = hate looking through the archives... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Website status? Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 15:38:19 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al and company, Just wondering what progress has been made to restoring the PRRT&HS = website? I had bookmarked the TKM issues there. I am on a 56 k modem and = it takes 40 forevers to download PDF's, so am anxiously awaiting the = October issue. Gregg Mahlkov PRRT&HS #7418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:16:25 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sam wrtes... Group, I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR diesels. After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has sparked my interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most accurate model in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one that I might have to add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 plus for one that is exact I would probably go for the less expensive one and do my own details. I thought this was discussed some time ago but I am lazy and hate looking through the archives... Sam V< Sam, It is not just a matter of cost IMHO. How much work are you willing to commit to and what are your expextations of the finished product. Here are some options starting with cost as a basis.... Athearn/Globe(F-7)... for years the industry standard. The problem is the roof it too flat and winows are too wide open but with lots of work you can get a fairly nice F-7 but the lowest end product on the food chain. Some of the unique products made for this model are the winow fillers by AMB and the number boards by Details West. Bachmann (F7)... Somewhat accuarate. Good for only for late model F7's but the windshield area is in need of help. Interestingly enough the drive on these units rated just slightly lower than the Stweart drives in RMJ at one point. Life Like (P1K F3) Very accurate... But the PRR units need dynamic brakes and this unit has none. But you can get HIGHLINER dynamic brake inserts as a separate part... But only available as an F3 phase 2 early. Stewart (F3 to F7) Fairly accuarate... based on what folks say regarding the windshield area. For years it displaced the other offering but has fallen from favor of late but the drive is revered. NOTE*** All of the above need new pilots and standard PRR stand alone items like lifting lugs and antenna mast. Intermountain (F3 & F7's) very very accuarate. Good for single phases of F Units as represented. The F3 needs corrected 4-digit number boards standard to the PRR. Good choice. But this might go beyond your price point. Athearn/Genesis (F3 or F7) Extremely accurate... This is at the top of the food chain all you need is the PRR specific items. Perhaps beyond your price point. Highliner...(all phases of F-units) The one unit that all asspire to. The shell that is used on the Athhearn/Genesis units. The issue is that decal for these units are not yet made, accrately. The EMD stripes were 2-inches wide while the Champ are the correct color they as well as Microscale are too wide (3-inches) and too yellow. So making a good PRR unit from these is not yet attainable. And you have to add your own powerframe. So this might be beyond your price point. Choose your poisen Sam. Personally I have some of each and most will end up in PRR paint include my A-B-A set of Athearn/Globe. I own them all and plan to run them all. I am willing to do what it takes to make them as correct as possible. Plus I just enjoy the process... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com BLI now has pictures of their upcoming K4 on their website. Can someone offer an informed decision on how this compares to the real K4. I looks really good to me. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com BLI now has pictures of their upcoming K4 on their website. Can someone offer an informed decision on how this compares to the real K4. I looks really good to me. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 09:14:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRRPro group is preparing their next modeling effort... the P70 series, including variants such as the P70k and the P70gs. The P70gs was done two ways... with typical small windows or with larger picture windows. I know of no reference that relates the window size against the actual car numbers (roster) other than individual unit photos. Anyone know differently? A while back on the PRR-talk list -- perhaps years -- it was suggested that the P70gs with small windows was likely used in commuter service or day trips, while the picture window versions would likely have been used in overnight service. Any more opinions on this? I need four P70gs cars for assignment as follows, and I'd appreciate feedback on which version they likely would have been: The Juniata (2 cars - Pittsburgh to New York) The Duquesne (Buffalo to New York, via 570 at Harrisburg) The Indianapolis Limited (New York to Harrisburg - removed from consist) The defunct East Wind Manufacturing offered both window versions as kits in N scale, so both are available for this project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:36:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, I don't believe that P70GS's of any type were intended for overnight service. They did not have the leg room. That's what P70K's were for. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:15 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Cc: prrPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRRPro] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments The PRRPro group is preparing their next modeling effort... the P70 series, including variants such as the P70k and the P70gs. The P70gs was done two ways... with typical small windows or with larger picture windows. I know of no reference that relates the window size against the actual car numbers (roster) other than individual unit photos. Anyone know differently? A while back on the PRR-talk list -- perhaps years -- it was suggested that the P70gs with small windows was likely used in commuter service or day trips, while the picture window versions would likely have been used in overnight service. Any more opinions on this? I need four P70gs cars for assignment as follows, and I'd appreciate feedback on which version they likely would have been: The Juniata (2 cars - Pittsburgh to New York) The Duquesne (Buffalo to New York, via 570 at Harrisburg) The Indianapolis Limited (New York to Harrisburg - removed from consist) The defunct East Wind Manufacturing offered both window versions as kits in N scale, so both are available for this project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:46:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 10:36 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > I don't believe that P70GS's of any type were intended for overnight > service. They did not have the leg room. That's what P70K's were for. Good point, Andy. I was focusing on the exterior window arrangement and not taking into account the seating differences -- the P70k being a 56-seater and the P70gs being a 68-seater. So, still need to know if there was a rhyme or reason as to the small vs. large windows and their respective assignments. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 11:40:06 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'll be interested to see that if BLI comes to Timonium,=20 they'll have the models with them. If they do i'll take=20 pictures and post them. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: BLI now has pictures of their upcoming K4 on their=20 website. Can someone offer an informed decision on how=20 this compares to the real K4. I looks really good to me.=20 Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 12:27:45 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 14:27:25 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8336@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments thread-index: AcSrppbi7PzOXHtLQmeAOFlz5YHG0wANad7g From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Jerry Britton" , "PRR-Talk LIST" Cc: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For what its worth they (PRR) had what they called "Scheme 5s and Scheme 6s" The "s" stood for "skirts" but I don't remember what the other differences were. They were hard riding s.o.b.s but they had reclining seats, a welcome relief from the otherwise smooth riding FBR cars. The g's gs's and k's were always used from Buffalo to Baltimore and the track from Harrisburg to Baltimore was nothing short of attrocius. A ride at high speed in a P70 was nerve wracking to say the least. Bill Volkmer Frequent weekend traveller in those days -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:15 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Cc: prrPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments The PRRPro group is preparing their next modeling effort... the P70=20 series, including variants such as the P70k and the P70gs. The P70gs was done two ways... with typical small windows or with=20 larger picture windows. I know of no reference that relates the window=20 size against the actual car numbers (roster) other than individual unit=20 photos. Anyone know differently? A while back on the PRR-talk list -- perhaps years -- it was suggested=20 that the P70gs with small windows was likely used in commuter service=20 or day trips, while the picture window versions would likely have been=20 used in overnight service. Any more opinions on this? I need four P70gs cars for assignment as follows, and I'd appreciate=20 feedback on which version they likely would have been: The Juniata (2 cars - Pittsburgh to New York) The Duquesne (Buffalo to New York, via 570 at Harrisburg) The Indianapolis Limited (New York to Harrisburg - removed from=20 consist) The defunct East Wind Manufacturing offered both window versions as=20 kits in N scale, so both are available for this project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:39:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > For what its worth they (PRR) had what they called "Scheme 5s and > Scheme > 6s" The "s" stood for "skirts" but I don't remember what the other > differences were. I was aware of the "schemes" and need various schemes for P70's (no suffix) and PB70's. I don't think I've seen them in reference to P70gs's, which did have skirts at one time. (East Wind offered the car with or without skirts, with large or small windows.) I had not previously seen the "s" suffix to indicate skirts. My original PRR documents are from 1954 and by them most skirting had been removed, so maybe the "s" suffix had been dropped by then -- as had the "r" suffix to denote air conditioning. > They were hard riding s.o.b.s but they had reclining > seats, a welcome relief from the otherwise smooth riding FBR cars. While they were on the roster, the 1954 Makeup of Trains doesn't show any P70fbr's in service on the routes through Harrisburg. Doesn't mean I can't sub one in now and then! (Wheels of Time plans to produce the P70fbr in N scale.) > > The g's gs's and k's were always used from Buffalo to Baltimore.. I figured as much, with a few exceptions for 1954... Train 531 carried a P85b north to Harrisburg which it transferred to Train 21, The Indianapolis Ltd. Train 59, The Liberty Ltd., carried two P85b's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:48:02 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) F3 & F7 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom, Thanks for the comments. It would take a lot of detailed information for each offering. The point is that they are all good offerings depending on how much time and effort you are willing to apply and then your intended results. The Athearn/Globe is the most overlooked but when I did my A_B_A set years ago (now in AL Stump Sr.'s collection) there were no window inserts offered and I had to make my own jigs so they would all come out the same and once corrected they are still something to be proud of... Don't discount any of the options as you model to your standards not mine... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 15:04:23 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8337@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments thread-index: AcSr3Oq8W9MBXH/iQe6JUT4B6w9ssgABG1Nw From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You are correct. In the 1958-62 time period the FBRs were strictly on the corridor. I seem to remember P85s going north from Baltimore on 575 and being put on 49 at Harrisburg to Chicago. There were lots of P70 recliners operating in east west service but mostly on the Red Arrow, and St. Louis/Cinncinnati service. Also Chicago-Louisville. I seem to remember the Clevelander having P85s. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 3:40 PM To: Bill Volkmer Cc: PRR-Talk LIST; prrPro@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments On Wednesday, October 6, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > For what its worth they (PRR) had what they called "Scheme 5s and > Scheme > 6s" The "s" stood for "skirts" but I don't remember what the other > differences were. I was aware of the "schemes" and need various schemes for P70's (no=20 suffix) and PB70's. I don't think I've seen them in reference to=20 P70gs's, which did have skirts at one time. (East Wind offered the car=20 with or without skirts, with large or small windows.) I had not previously seen the "s" suffix to indicate skirts. My=20 original PRR documents are from 1954 and by them most skirting had been=20 removed, so maybe the "s" suffix had been dropped by then -- as had the=20 "r" suffix to denote air conditioning. > They were hard riding s.o.b.s but they had reclining > seats, a welcome relief from the otherwise smooth riding FBR cars. While they were on the roster, the 1954 Makeup of Trains doesn't show=20 any P70fbr's in service on the routes through Harrisburg. Doesn't mean=20 I can't sub one in now and then! (Wheels of Time plans to produce the=20 P70fbr in N scale.) > > The g's gs's and k's were always used from Buffalo to Baltimore.. I figured as much, with a few exceptions for 1954... Train 531 carried a P85b north to Harrisburg which it transferred to=20 Train 21, The Indianapolis Ltd. Train 59, The Liberty Ltd., carried two P85b's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <18BBDAFA-17DE-11D9-87AB-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Urgent BLI K4s Ordering Information Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 17:24:24 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm passing on this info as a public service, as not all BLI dealers may be as quick to act... I received a dealer FAX from BLI today indicating that the K4's are expected in October... contrary to earlier reports that they would be delayed. The fact that photos were posted this week, however, supports the claim that they are very close. In the FAX, BLI makes it clear that there will NOT be overruns on stock. Their exact words are "Due to high manufacturing costs, production will be based on preorders only. Please send all orders in by this Friday, October 8." The advice is, if you want a BLI K4, you should expedite contact with your preferred BLI dealer. (If you don't have an established BLI dealer to service your needs, I would be more than happy to work with you.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:49:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I too will be at the Timonium show this weekend. Also look forward to see what BLI will have on display. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:02:23 -0400 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 6, 2004, at 7:49 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > I too will be at the Timonium show this weekend. Also > look forward to see what BLI will have on display. Odd/interesting that they set a "drop dead" order deadline of one day BEFORE the biggest quarterly show in the mid-Atlantic. Should be right after the show...right? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:41:54 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am repainting the bodies of my brass N scale cabin cars to accurately depict the era that I am modeling--the mid-1950s in the Pittsburgh division. I have several Micro-trains versions of Penny boxcars that show redder colors than Tuscan or "boxcar" red, but they are not the same. Does anyone have a web reference that shows a color sample of FCC paint from the mid-1950s? And thank you to those who have sent pictures and information to assist this project to date. Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:02:12 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR Future Stuff from Walthers in HO Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Coupl'a things ... 1) A friend who is sharing color 35mm slides of passenger equipment with the product development folks at Walthers related that they plan to have a B60b ready by early next Summer, but are only looking for prototype images showing so-called late schemes (with and w/o keystones) and in PC Green. 2) My hobby dealer showed me a new Walthers dealers' survey that among other things included an N6b and asked how many he'd consider ordering in a wide variety of paint and lettering. Thought modelers on this list might be able to set my mind at ease (or issue a hue and cry for earlier schemes), in the first case, and bombard their dealers with advance commitments in the second case. 'best, Vagel keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Alco B units Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 23:17:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm in the process of putting decals on an AF16 B unit. There are = several stencils along the bottom edge of the car body. The only one I = can make out in photos is for the fuel filler.=20 Can anyone tell me what other information was stenciled on the edge of = the car body? I'm assuming there may have been something that said = "Water" or possibly "Engine Oil Drain", or the region of assignment, = etc. =20 I've found many photos in books that show something is there but its = impossible to make out exactly what it is. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] Timonium Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 06:35:32 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, I will not be able to attend this weekend, however those planning to attend and to check out BLI K-4. Would someone check to see if they are being manufactured in Korea or China and then please post on the talk line for others to see? Thanks to all. Charlie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:59:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com P70gsR Coaches..... Firstly...it is a fact that the Trail Blazer was originally equipped = with P70gsR in 1939...the P70kR were not available until early 1940. = Photos of the inaugural run of the Trail Blazer prove these to be narrow = window P70gsR and POC70R. Even into the 1940s...consist reports continue = to show P70gsR substitutions in long-distance coach service. Whether = they were comfortable as long distance coaches, or not....they saw = service. To answer Jerrys question.... P70gsR coaches 4194-4243 were originally built with "picture" windows = and full skirting. Skirting was removed in the late 1940s. P70gsR coaches 4310-4359 were originally built with "narrow" square = windows and full skirting. Again, skirting was being removed by the late = 1940s Brian Butcher ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:18:29 -0500 To: TCJ Riggs , PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 6, 2004, at 7:41 PM, TCJ Riggs wrote: > I am repainting the bodies of my brass N scale cabin cars to accurately > depict the era that I am modeling--the mid-1950s in the Pittsburgh > division. > I have several Micro-trains versions of Penny boxcars that show redder > colors than Tuscan or "boxcar" red, but they are not the same. Does > anyone > have a web reference that shows a color sample of FCC paint from the > mid-1950s? And thank you to those who have sent pictures and > information > to assist this project to date. > > Tom Riggs Tom, I'd be nervous about a "web reference" for any color as it depends on your monitors settings. How about we do one better and make a suggestion for a model paint ? A number of modelers favor Poly Scale (and floquil) Special Oxide Red for post-war FCC. To my eye, this is right on. For pre-war FCC, I mix in Zinc Chromate (1:1), because this adds a little more orange, which seems to have been more pronounced prior to the 1950s. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:43:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Agree, the BLI K4 is a good looking model when compared to the prototype. The other offering from MTH, while having many strong features, suffers from "Tinplate" errors. An example is the unbelievably large hinges on the smoke box cover, which resemble something found on O Tinplate locos. No where could I find a photo a prototype that shows hinges other than that seen on the BLI model. I would certainly like to have both models to do a side-by-side comparison. At the moment, my money is headed for the BLI model. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:02:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted & List, Anal Retentive? Not so. While we all at one time or another become a little too critical of a model's features, the Keystone is a (please excuse the pun) key feature on a model of a Pennsylvania Railroad steam locomotive. After all, that bright red company emblem is one of the earliest attraction on a Pennsy model. Model manufactures would do well to pay close attention to these "key" details. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:07:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Timonium Show Attendees X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please keep an eye out for MTH should they display their HO version of the K4. Would be very interested in first hand accounts of its appearance and performance. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:59:05 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom: Check the latest issue of the Keystone for the Color Drift cards available from the PRRT&HS. FCC post 1953 was one of the cards available. I have no idea if it is still in stock. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:59:05 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom: Check the latest issue of the Keystone for the Color Drift cards available from the PRRT&HS. FCC post 1953 was one of the cards available. I have no idea if it is still in stock. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re:::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:14:07 -0500 To: PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 8:43 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Agree, the BLI K4 is a good looking model when compared to the > prototype. > The other offering from MTH, while having many strong features, > suffers from > "Tinplate" errors. An example is the unbelievably large hinges on the > smoke box > cover, which resemble something found on O Tinplate locos. No where > could I > find a photo a prototype that shows hinges other than that seen on the > BLI > model. I would certainly like to have both models to do a > side-by-side > comparison. At the moment, my money is headed for the BLI model. > > Evan Leisey While it is dangerous to look at pictures of pilot models... I'll agree, although I am also somewhat disappointed in the BLI model. It may have lots of attached details, but if they aren't correct, then it is not a "state of the art model"! Problems with the MTH K4s include the lack of anything vaguely representing the ash pans etc under the cab, the smoke unit and the details Evan noted. Problems with the BLI K4 include the somewhat clunky smokebox markers (and apparently no "prewar" markers for the prewar loco?), the keystone, the AWFUL joint with the stack, the canted running boards in front of the steam delivery pipes (on all 3 models), the safety valves (too big?) and the bell pictured is pretty abysmal (to be honest, it looks like they stuck some other bell on). The builders plate looks nice, but the tender badge still looks pretty clunky. The tender is a 110P75A - did the "A" appear on the badge? There are a LOT of applied details, like the conduit and markers on the back of the tender and the boiler. Most if not all of the exposed piping looks applied and not cast. Of course, they go to all that trouble and then the grabs at the top of the slope sheet are cast on blobs! If the colors are any indication, this one looks "close enough" for me (finally). The BLI K4s looks to be a nice model, but it certainly does not appear to set the standard for HO scale steam. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 11:29:37 -0400 Subject: Re: ::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > While it is dangerous to look at pictures of pilot models... Anyone else note that the "head shot" that they've been using in ads for months has the slatted pilot and bears #1361, yet the #1361 they are selling has a cast pilot! Guess they made the wrong combination when they posed the pilot model for the marketing shot! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: ::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 15:59:05 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A couple of concerns I have: the cast drop coupler pilot doesn't look massive enough and the hole for the drop coupler doesn't look right in the side shot. The handrails on the front side of the smokebox stick straight up in the air instead of continuing the curve of the boiler after the top handrail stanchion. The tender slope sheet appears to have a massive thickness. I can't tell if it simulates an agle iron on the bottom side or it is just oversize. The siderods are treated to cut down the brightness but the pilot truck wheels aren't treated. Why? Norm Bell -------------- Original message from Jerry Britton : -------------- > On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > > > While it is dangerous to look at pictures of pilot models... > > Anyone else note that the "head shot" that they've been using in ads > for months has the slatted pilot and bears #1361, yet the #1361 they > are selling has a cast pilot! > > Guess they made the wrong combination when they posed the pilot model > for the marketing shot! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:44:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <388D82E2-1880-11D9-83D8-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A lot of "passenger car sides" modeler cut down the length of Eastern Car Works (HO) or American Limited (N) core kits to build P70kr or P70gsr coaches. I was taking a peek at the drawings on Rob's site to see what other cars have the similar roof construction -- like that of the lightweight sleepers, with the ends squared off -- rather than the typical heavyweight balloon or clerestory roof. It appears that four diners might possibly be done this way as well: D70asr, D70cr, D70dr, and D70er (coffee shop). Am I correct about these, or not? Are there others? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re:::[PRR] BLI K4 pics now up From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:12:59 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403e4a5772ad05672a1a7491cbea7ad5f0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.37 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom--In addition to the paints that Bruce suggested, you might consider also Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red (16-14) and Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car Red (S2081). I don't know where Badger came up with that name--we sure don't need anyone else perpetuating the the idea that PRR freight cars were anything close to tuscan red. If you use the Scalecoat II color, be sure to use Scalecoat II thinner. It isn't acrylic paint, but the stuff sure makes decaling easy. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL > > Tom, > > I'd be nervous about a "web reference" for any color as it depends on > your monitors settings. How about we do one better and make a > suggestion for a model paint ? A number of modelers favor Poly > Scale (and floquil) Special Oxide Red for post-war FCC. To my eye, > this is right on. For pre-war FCC, I mix in Zinc Chromate (1:1), > because this adds a little more orange, which seems to have been more > pronounced prior to the 1950s. > > Regards > Bruce > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:37:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940c2f321428542759e7432ac95205b39e1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.37 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start of P70 modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, I'll call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type found on P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and the P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and the diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, which were long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded end of the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Surely someone on the list knows the what is correct and can point us to some 50's era photos. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights > A lot of "passenger car sides" modeler cut down the length of Eastern > Car Works (HO) or American Limited (N) core kits to build P70kr or > P70gsr coaches. > > I was taking a peek at the drawings on Rob's site to see what other > cars have the similar roof construction -- like that of the lightweight > sleepers, with the ends squared off -- rather than the typical > heavyweight balloon or clerestory roof. > > It appears that four diners might possibly be done this way as well: > D70asr, D70cr, D70dr, and D70er (coffee shop). Am I correct about > these, or not? > > Are there others? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: Bruce Smith Subject: K4 markers, was [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:36:42 -0500 To: Bill Daniels X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > Actually these are correct for the K4s in the > 1940-1947 period, > as well as with the whistle shield > and blowdown muffler mounted on the firebox. The use > of old "claw" markers and class lights were > discontinued for passenger locomotives around 1939, > and the new markers were first used in 1940, which is > pre-war (at least for the U.S.). Bill, Not to pick nits , but in fact the addition of "tombstone" markers to the smokebox occurred starting in June 1942, which would mean that it was "war time" and not "prewar" In addition, if you check Gay Mittner's web site, you can find more photos of K4s with claw foot pilot markers and no smokebox markers than you can with tombstone smokebox markers during the WWII years and a year or so beyond. 1944 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43680.JPG 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43727.JPG 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43775.JPG Here's a photo shot on 4/4/48 of #3735 with a modern front end, cast pilot, pilot beam claw foots and no smokebox markers! http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43735.JPG So, a true "pre war" K4s should either have clawfoot markers on both the smokebox and pilot beam, or post 1939, it should have just pilot beam markers. Thus, I rest my case that the markers are not correct for a "pre war" K4s. Although I can use the offered (undec) locomotive for my 1944 layout since I will letter it with extended lettering, I would like to mix in the other styles that were clearly around throughout the war... and as you point out, the lettering on the BLI model is NOT correct for a model with tombstone markers. For the claim of BLI "To be, without question, the highest quality model railroading product money can buy" to be true, it would mean the inclusion of correct era specific details to me (or even better, the option to allow the modeler to add them...ie no markers on the loco, but all three style smokebox markers, and clawfoot pilot markers included in a little sack of parts..) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:47:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Arch Roof Heavyweights From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 7, 2004, at 02:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. That's exactly why I brought it up. I'm doing the "pre-research". > For my purposes here, I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. Reasonable theory, actually. > NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Yup, we need photos of the prototype with the smaller diaphragms. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:11:52 -0500 To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, > I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early diagram with full width diaphragms. Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width diaphragm and a squared end. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <2CBB5ACD-1898-11D9-BC84-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com, PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST , PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:36:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Folks, As some of you have already heard, the PRRPro group's next project will be the P70 series of cars. We will be getting underway officially on October 18th, but some discussions (like available models) have already begun. Please feel free to come by and check the group out at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ The PRRPro group is open to all modelers of all scales. Rather than any one individual providing a step-by-step tutorial on a specific car, the group consists of many modelers who contribute both their questions and answers to the entire group as we each build the project. The P70 project includes any of the P70 series cars built or rebuilt by the PRR and the PB70 (passenger-baggage) and PBM70 (passenger-baggage-mail) series as well. We are anticipating that projects will include the ALCO/ECW P70 kits as well etched and laser cut car sides in both HO and N scale. We look forward to seeing you at PRRPro! BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message %^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <2CBB5ACD-1898-11D9-BC84-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com, PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST , PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:36:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Folks, As some of you have already heard, the PRRPro group's next project will be the P70 series of cars. We will be getting underway officially on October 18th, but some discussions (like available models) have already begun. Please feel free to come by and check the group out at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ The PRRPro group is open to all modelers of all scales. Rather than any one individual providing a step-by-step tutorial on a specific car, the group consists of many modelers who contribute both their questions and answers to the entire group as we each build the project. The P70 project includes any of the P70 series cars built or rebuilt by the PRR and the PB70 (passenger-baggage) and PBM70 (passenger-baggage-mail) series as well. We are anticipating that projects will include the ALCO/ECW P70 kits as well etched and laser cut car sides in both HO and N scale. We look forward to seeing you at PRRPro! BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message %^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:56:05 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, GS, etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a heavyweight end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real streamlined cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for postwar P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that on the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing space inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing goes inside end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a place for the brakeman to ride outside the car. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Bruce: As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color Guide Vol. 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of both the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the case with the Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of compound curvature as is the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed P70FBR. What we have here is simple-curvature transition from the end of the arch roof, in-line with the ends of the car-sides (a straight line across the roof, to the arched car-ends. The nit I have to pick with the NKP roof end is that it has a slight radius on the edge between the roof arch and the end transition panel. The prototype photos show a sharp edge instead. There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same end casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the vestibule end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for the blind ends. The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt up the part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part thickness right. Bob Kessler -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, > I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early diagram with full width diaphragms. Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width diaphragm and a squared end. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:56:05 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, GS, etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a heavyweight end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real streamlined cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for postwar P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that on the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing space inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing goes inside end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a place for the brakeman to ride outside the car. regards, Andy Miller _____ From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Bruce: As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color Guide Vol. 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of both the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the case with the Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of compound curvature as is the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed P70FBR. What we have here is simple-curvature transition from the end of the arch roof, in-line with the ends of the car-sides (a straight line across the roof, to the arched car-ends. The nit I have to pick with the NKP roof end is that it has a slight radius on the edge between the roof arch and the end transition panel. The prototype photos show a sharp edge instead. There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same end casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the vestibule end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for the blind ends. The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt up the part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part thickness right. Bob Kessler -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start > of P70 > modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, > I'll > call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type > found on > P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and > the > P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the > lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and > the > diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, > which were > long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded > end of > the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at > http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm > seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early diagram with full width diaphragms. Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width diaphragm and a squared end. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:54:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Fwd: NEW PRODUCT: PRR K4 w/ No Sound From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... For clarity sake, "no sound" also mean there is no DCC decoder=20 installed. It is "DCC ready" as in "ready to accept a decoder". It will=20= only run DC out of the box. Begin forwarded message: > From: Broadway Limited Imports > Date: Fri Oct 8, 2004 10:36:03 AM US/Eastern > Subject: NEW PRODUCT: PRR K4 w/ No Sound > > NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT: > > PRR K4s 4-6-2s w/ NO SOUND > > Preorders due October 29.=A0 Subsequent orders cannot be guaranteed.=A0 > > =A0 In response to great consumer demand, Broadway Limited Imports, = LLC=20 > is offering its PRR K4s 4-6-2 without sound! > > The no-sound units will have the exact same body and detail, but will=20= > have no sound system. The no-sound units are DC operable and are =91DCC=20= > Ready=92 > > We expect these units to be ready for delivery toward the end of=20 > October 2004.=A0 We HIGHLY recommend PREORDERING these items as the = cost=20 > of manufacturing is high and the run will be made to order. > > stk# Item Description > > 335 NO SOUND #646 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO > > 336 NO SOUND #1453 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO > > 337 NO SOUND w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, unlettered,=20= > HO > > 338 NO SOUND #5451 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 339 NO SOUND #7279 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 340 NO SOUND w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered,=20= > HO > > 341 NO SOUND #5418 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 342 NO SOUND #1361 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO > > 343 NO SOUND w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered, HO > > MSRP $299 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com, PRR-Talk LIST , STEPHEN HOXIE From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 roof ends Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 18:00:18 -0400 To: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 3:11 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > I believe that the ends of the roof on the P70GSR, P70KR and most > importantly for me the modernized PB70D are shown incorrectly on the > NKP site. I'll cite page numbers later, but there are photos with sufficient detail of the P70gs and P70k in Steigmeyer's "Passenger Consists of 1952" book and Morning Sun's " Color Guide III". The balloon/round roofs have a rounded end that transforms smoothly from end to top. The arch roofs of the P70k and P70gs are indeed rounded slightly at the ends, but the point where they meet the roof is not rounded off. There is actually an edge -- sort of a ridge -- where the two surfaces meet. And the rounding of the end does not seem to "radiate" around the corners. It's hard for me to express what I mean here... but it looks like you could take a squared end 85' core kit with flush end and litterally just round off the top edge of the end. What I can't tell, for sure, is the ends of the cars. Rather than being flat with an extended diaphragm, it almost looks like the end of the car bulges out towards the middle, with a shorter diaphragm. No good direct side views to judge from... yet. I'm now trying to determine if the PDB70 shared this roof or not. I have a set of sides. The drawing on Rob's site shows one end square, presumably due to full width diaphragm and the other end appearing more rounded than the P70k/P70gs. Anyone know? And anyone know of a photo of a PLC70? It had the low arch roof. But I'd like to see a photo. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 19:33:53 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: K4 markers, was [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Bruce, Does the 1946 K4s 3727 lettering on the tender appear to be Futura style? This photo was taken at Orangeville Yards Baltimore, Maryland. Ken Meyer Bruce Smith wrote: > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Bill Daniels wrote: > >> Actually these are correct for the K4s in the >> 1940-1947 period, >> as well as with the whistle shield >> and blowdown muffler mounted on the firebox. The use >> of old "claw" markers and class lights were >> discontinued for passenger locomotives around 1939, >> and the new markers were first used in 1940, which is >> pre-war (at least for the U.S.). > > > Bill, > > Not to pick nits , but in fact the addition of "tombstone" markers > to the smokebox occurred starting in June 1942, which would mean that > it was "war time" and not "prewar" In addition, if you check > Gay Mittner's web site, you can find more photos of K4s with claw foot > pilot markers and no smokebox markers than you can with tombstone > smokebox markers during the WWII years and a year or so beyond. > > 1944 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43680.JPG > 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43727.JPG > 1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43775.JPG > > Here's a photo shot on 4/4/48 of #3735 with a modern front end, cast > pilot, pilot beam claw foots and no smokebox markers! > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43735.JPG > > So, a true "pre war" K4s should either have clawfoot markers on both > the smokebox and pilot beam, or post 1939, it should have just pilot > beam markers. Thus, I rest my case that the markers are not correct > for a "pre war" K4s. Although I can use the offered (undec) > locomotive for my 1944 layout since I will letter it with extended > lettering, I would like to mix in the other styles that were clearly > around throughout the war... and as you point out, the lettering on > the BLI model is NOT correct for a model with tombstone markers. > > For the claim of BLI "To be, without question, the highest quality > model railroading product money can buy" to be true, it would mean the > inclusion of correct era specific details to me (or even better, the > option to allow the modeler to add them...ie no markers on the loco, > but all three style smokebox markers, and clawfoot pilot markers > included in a little sack of parts..) > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > --------------090704060006000507010104 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------090208050506020108010201" --------------090208050506020108010201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Bruce,
Does the 1946 K4s 3727 lettering on the tender appear to be Futura style?


This photo was taken at Orangeville Yards Baltimore, Maryland.

Ken Meyer

Bruce Smith wrote:

On Oct 7, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Bill Daniels wrote:
Actually these are correct for the K4s in the
1940-1947 period,
as well as with the whistle shield
and blowdown muffler mounted on the firebox. The use
of old "claw" markers and class lights were
discontinued for passenger locomotives around 1939,
and the new markers were first used in 1940, which is
pre-war (at least for the U.S.).

Bill,

Not to pick nits <G>, but in fact the addition of "tombstone" markers to the smokebox occurred starting in June 1942, which would mean that it was "war time" and not "prewar" <VBG>  In addition, if you check Gay Mittner's web site, you can find more photos of K4s with claw foot pilot markers and no smokebox markers than you can with tombstone smokebox markers during the WWII years and a year or so beyond.

1944 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43680.JPG
1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43727.JPG
1946 http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43775.JPG

Here's a photo shot on 4/4/48 of #3735 with a modern front end, cast pilot, pilot beam claw foots and no smokebox markers!
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/k43735.JPG

So, a true "pre war" K4s should either have clawfoot markers on both the smokebox and pilot beam, or post 1939, it should have just pilot beam markers.  Thus, I rest my case that the markers are not correct for a "pre war" K4s.  Although I can use the offered (undec) locomotive for my 1944 layout since I will letter it with extended lettering, I would like to mix in the other styles that were clearly around throughout the war... and as you point out, the lettering on the BLI model is NOT correct for a model with tombstone markers.

For the claim of BLI "To be, without question, the highest quality model railroading product money can buy" to be true, it would mean the inclusion of correct era specific details to me (or even  better, the option to allow the modeler to add them...ie no markers on the loco, but all three style smokebox markers, and clawfoot pilot markers included in a little sack of parts..)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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--------------090208050506020108010201-- --------------090704060006000507010104-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 22:09:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MTH HO scale K4s tender questions From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:50:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, IIRC, there was a tan color in some cars, which over time may have sun bleached to a grey from the outside. The best discussion on this ended with a suggestion that they were color coded to the interior; now comes the part of getting a list of interior colors, and matching the known shade colors. My resources have not revealed any definitive answer; however one of the lister might have it stored on a shelf. It's happened before! Anyone wish to share this info, should you have it? Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: ; ; "PRR-Talk LIST" ; ; Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway > All, > > On the topic of P70 coaches, were the window shades a standard color? In > the PRRT&HS book on passenger equipment, it looks like they were gray. > > Tom Riggs > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Smith" > To: ; ; > "PRR-Talk LIST" ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 3:36 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway > > >> Hi Folks, >> >> As some of you have already heard, the PRRPro group's next project will >> be the P70 series of cars. We will be getting underway officially on >> October 18th, but some discussions (like available models) have already >> begun. Please feel free to come by and check the group out at: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ >> >> The PRRPro group is open to all modelers of all scales. Rather than >> any one individual providing a step-by-step tutorial on a specific car, >> the group consists of many modelers who contribute both their questions >> and answers to the entire group as we each build the project. The P70 >> project includes any of the P70 series cars built or rebuilt by the PRR >> and the PB70 (passenger-baggage) and PBM70 (passenger-baggage-mail) >> series as well. We are anticipating that projects will include the >> ALCO/ECW P70 kits as well etched and laser cut car sides in both HO and >> N scale. >> >> We look forward to seeing you at PRRPro! >> >> BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post >> - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message >> %^) >> >> Regards >> Bruce >> >> Bruce F. Smith >> Auburn, AL >> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ >> >> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >> Franklin >> __ >> / \ >> __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ >> |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | >> | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| >> |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| >> | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 01:56:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy & list- Is it feasable to sand/file one end, place a backing strip on the inside of the roof, then sand an insert to match the cobbled end configuration? given that the correct ends are used in assembly. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" ; Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, GS, > etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a > heavyweight > end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real streamlined > cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for postwar > P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif > =coa&sz=sm&fr> &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= > > The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that on > the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing space > inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing goes inside > end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a place for the > brakeman to ride outside the car. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > > _____ > > From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' > Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > > Bruce: > > As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color Guide > Vol. > 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of > both > the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the case with > the > Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of compound curvature as is > the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed P70FBR. What we have here is > simple-curvature transition from the end of the arch roof, in-line with > the > ends of the car-sides (a straight line across the roof, to the arched > car-ends. The nit I have to pick with the NKP roof end is that it has a > slight radius on the edge between the roof arch and the end transition > panel. The prototype photos show a sharp edge instead. > > There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same end > casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the > vestibule > end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for the blind ends. > The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt up > the > part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part thickness right. > > Bob Kessler > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST > Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE > Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > >> Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start >> of P70 >> modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes here, >> I'll >> call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and the type >> found on >> P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that both the P70gsR and >> the >> P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a squared off end as on the >> lightweight sleepers. The only photos I have seen of either car, and >> the >> diagrams on Rob's site, show the cars with full-width diaphragms, >> which were >> long gone by 1954. These diaphragms could have covered up the rounded >> end of >> the roof, if I am correct. NKP Car Co. at >> http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm >> seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. > > Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro > group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of the > opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof on > the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D are > shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent out > to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width diaphragms > that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like the > lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were "squared > off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double check tonight, > but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. > The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. > The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 > (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and as > Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early > diagram with full width diaphragms. > > Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I > believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width > diaphragm and a squared end. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705063576:HM/EXP=1097266791/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://comp > anion.yahoo.com> click here > > :HM/A=2128215/rand=492360820> > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/YSTolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH HO scale K4s tender questions Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 07:22:19 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Do you think the photos on the website are really the HO model and not file photos of their O model? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:09 AM Subject: [PRR] MTH HO scale K4s tender questions > Hello list, > > I've been looking at the smallish photos on the MTH > web site for their HO scale K4s. > > http://www.mthhotrains.com/models.asp > > I'm trying to determine the tender type. I can't tell > if it has 3 or four steps nearest the engine cab. I > cannot see the rivet pattern at all. The coal bunker > is about the same length as the cistern, which is > generally indicative of a 110P75. 110P70s have 3 > steps, visible rivet pattern along the coal bunker, > and a coal bunker that's noticeably shorter than the > water space....see a stock Bachmann K4s for a 110P70. > > Since I model 1947-1950, I'm hoping for a 110P75a > (like the nice-looking BLI K4s I ordered) or 110P75. > > If the tender has 3 steps, it is not appropriate for a > stoker fired K4s (and would be right out for one with > a drop coupler pilot and modernized front end). > > I've ordered the MTH brochure from their web site, > which I hope will clear this up. > > Doug > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:25:30 GMT Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:25:30 GMT Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 16:44:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yes, I set my base level down to about 35 on the scale of I believe 128 for full volume, which is the default for BLI. I then adjust individual sounds to suit. Not only is it annoying when someone leaves their loco at full volume, it becomes doubly annoying when they haven't a clue as to whistle and bell signals so you get those as random junk noise. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominic Mazoch" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 8:25 AM Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems > > Sond is nice, but after a while, it gets boing to me. Anyway, the poor people in our model towns or Lionelville must not be able to hear; the sound systems blew out their eardrums! By ratio, are not sound sytems "out of scale"? > > > Dominic Mazoch > > ________________________________________________________________ > Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. > Now includes pop-up blocker! > Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 16:53:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems From: "Dominic Mazoch" Subject: [PRR] Sound Systems From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:12:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greeting to all..... I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in years. It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double headed K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute with the drivers slipping. Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "HENRY SHAEFER" Subject: [PRR] Remove me from your list Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:15:24 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please remove me from your mailing list. I do not wish to receive e mails anymore. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Alto tower in HO Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:22:34 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD09FE@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Alto tower in HO Thread-Index: AcSub/7ok8039CNEQM6/nY5EjGwU0g== From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2004 02:22:35.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[012DB780:01C4AE70] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone catch the ads in the new MR and RMC? The N Scale Architect will be doing some HO kits, including Alto tower. I think I'll have to grab myself one. Dave Owens ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Alto tower in HO Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 22:22:34 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD09FE@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Alto tower in HO Thread-Index: AcSub/7ok8039CNEQM6/nY5EjGwU0g== From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Oct 2004 02:22:35.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[012DB780:01C4AE70] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone catch the ads in the new MR and RMC? The N Scale Architect will be doing some HO kits, including Alto tower. I think I'll have to grab myself one. Dave Owens ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:25:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I can't find this listed anywhere, even on Google - any leads? TIA. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 10:12 PM Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD > Greeting to all..... > > I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show > called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog > Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in years. > It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w > film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's > H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double headed > K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute > with the drivers slipping. > Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of > F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also > featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This > tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie > features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 10/10/04 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I personally think the sound system has a great potential. However my personal knowledge of what they all mean stops after two longs a short and a long. I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated if someone would post list or table of what they all mean. Thanks in advance. John W. Liebeskind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD > From: > Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:14:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:Whistle signals X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John & List, Do you have a 1956 Book of Rules? Page 19 & 20 give the all the whistle signals. It may be listed somewhere in Jerrys site of KEYSTONE CROSSINGS,but I could not find it. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:14:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:Whistle signals X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John & List, Do you have a 1956 Book of Rules? Page 19 & 20 give the all the whistle signals. It may be listed somewhere in Jerrys site of KEYSTONE CROSSINGS,but I could not find it. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:10:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" From: Frederick Ripley From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:43:04 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred: I believe it was a POC70R coach / lounge observation. NJ International produced one years ago. You may be able to find one at a train show. There were no sleepers on the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian, as they were all coach trains. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" > Hello All, > > Doe anyone have any suggestions about modeling the observation car for > the 1948 "Trailblazer" (in HO)? I understand that these cars were > coach/lounges, and would have run on both the "Trailblazer" and > "Jeffersonian". > > Once the "General" and "Trailblazer" were combined, the cars continued to > operate- they are in the PTT's as late as 2/58, and I have seen shots from > the early '60's with the car operating backward at the head of the train. > > When listed in the PTT, I assume this meant the car was at the rear (but > maybe not). If so, did that mean the sleepers were at the head of the > "General-Trailblazer", and coaches at the rear? > > Thanks for any info, > > Fred R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 16:06:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" From: Frederick Ripley From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:13:42 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The square-end buffet-lounge-observation built by Altoona in January and February 1948( I can't find the designation---it replaced the POC70R mentioned by Larry ) was to be included in the series of cars by the Middle Division. The P85br has been finally produced. I don't know if Ron Sebastian has plans to do the observation, diner, or combine to match the P85br. There is a picture of 1132 (one of four or five -?-sisters) on page 41 of Stegmaier's PRR Passenger Consists & Cars on that date in 1951 on the South Wind. I believe when a combined General-Trailblazer was run , 1953-1959, the car ran with the coach section on the rear of the train. It finished its days on the General until 1967, by that time running on the headend as you saw. Anybody else care to fill in the blanks? I don't have time to dig more out of my library. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" > Hello All, > > Doe anyone have any suggestions about modeling the observation car for > the 1948 "Trailblazer" (in HO)? I understand that these cars were > coach/lounges, and would have run on both the "Trailblazer" and > "Jeffersonian". > > Once the "General" and "Trailblazer" were combined, the cars continued to > operate- they are in the PTT's as late as 2/58, and I have seen shots from > the early '60's with the car operating backward at the head of the train. > > When listed in the PTT, I assume this meant the car was at the rear (but > maybe not). If so, did that mean the sleepers were at the head of the > "General-Trailblazer", and coaches at the rear? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:54:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Agree, most sound systems operated in the upper end of their volume range are too much. As for scale. Should you ever visit the operating railroad museum in Scranton, Pa., take the time to drive up the mountain side just outside of town to listen to the steamers wind upgrade along the river (creek?). You'll be a couple of hundred feet above the right-of-way but the sound will be very impressive with plenty of volume. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 06:09:09 +0200 From: "Jlmcdaniel" Subject: [PRR] RE: Incoming Msg From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:39:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For those that like working with plastic, Laser Horizons offers the POC70R car sides and those for the POC85AR. It is a one piece that wraps around the back. Regards, Dennis Sautters PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:13:28 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Dave: Thanks for the review on this new video. Are they any good shots on the = Ft. Wayne line or Panhandle heading out of Chicago and into Indiana? Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Greeting to all..... I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in = years. It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double = headed K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute with the drivers slipping.=20 Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash.=20 Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Frederick Ripley" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 06:27:14 -0400 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 10, 2004, at 4:43 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > I believe it was a POC70R coach / lounge observation. NJ International > produced one years ago. You may be able to find one at a train show. > There > were no sleepers on the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian, as they were all > coach > trains. I concur, it was a POC70R. Once the trains were combined, there were sleepers in the consist and a POC85 was on the rear... 1954 makeup per Makeup of Trains, New York Division: Mail Storage.....New York to Chicago or Beyond (MS60) (X) Baggage.....New York to Chicago (B60) Sleeping Car.....New York to Los Angeles (PS442) (To Santa Fe No. 17 at Chicago). Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (14 sections) "R. Watterson" OR "A. Squire" Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS21) "Latrobe Inn" OR "Lewistown Inn" Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS124) "Chimney Creek" OR "Chippewa Creek" Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS106) "Blue Rapids" OR "Octora Rapids" Lounge Car.....New York to Chicago (PS6L) "Larch Falls" OR "Catulpa Falls" Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85C) Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85D) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet).....New York to Chicago (POC85) 1953 makeup per Rails Northeast, January 1979: MS60 (X)...New York to Chicago or beyond B60 (Solid)...New York to Chicago PS106...New York to Los Angeles (To C&NW #1 at Chicago.) 14 section...New York to Chicago PS21...New York to Chicago PS124...New York to Chicago PS106...New York to Chicago PS6L...New York to Chicago D85C...New York to Chicago D85D...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago P85BR...New York to Chicago POC85AR...New York to Chicago ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:35:17 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry: When you say "combined", you're, speaking of the General and the Trailblazer, correct? Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "Frederick Ripley" ; Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" > On Oct 10, 2004, at 4:43 PM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > I believe it was a POC70R coach / lounge observation. NJ International > > produced one years ago. You may be able to find one at a train show. > > There > > were no sleepers on the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian, as they were all > > coach > > trains. > > I concur, it was a POC70R. > > Once the trains were combined, there were sleepers in the consist and a > POC85 was on the rear... > > 1954 makeup per Makeup of Trains, New York Division: > Mail Storage.....New York to Chicago or Beyond (MS60) (X) > Baggage.....New York to Chicago (B60) > Sleeping Car.....New York to Los Angeles (PS442) (To Santa Fe No. 17 > at Chicago). > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (14 sections) "R. Watterson" OR > "A. Squire" > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS21) "Latrobe Inn" OR > "Lewistown Inn" > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS124) "Chimney Creek" OR > "Chippewa Creek" > Sleeping Car.....New York to Chicago (PS106) "Blue Rapids" OR "Octora > Rapids" > Lounge Car.....New York to Chicago (PS6L) "Larch Falls" OR "Catulpa > Falls" > Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85C) > Dining Car.....New York to Chicago (D85D) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Coaches.....New York to Chicago (P85B) > Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet).....New York to Chicago (POC85) > > 1953 makeup per Rails Northeast, January 1979: > MS60 (X)...New York to Chicago or beyond > B60 (Solid)...New York to Chicago > PS106...New York to Los Angeles (To C&NW #1 at Chicago.) > 14 section...New York to Chicago > PS21...New York to Chicago > PS124...New York to Chicago > PS106...New York to Chicago > PS6L...New York to Chicago > D85C...New York to Chicago > D85D...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > P85BR...New York to Chicago > POC85AR...New York to Chicago > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:45:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, October 11, 2004, at 07:35 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > When you say "combined", you're, speaking of the General and the > Trailblazer, correct? Correct, per the original query. Sorry, I should have repeated that. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:35:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, May 28, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > PPG paint no. 7167 is a very close match to PRR Tuscan Red The doors > and > trim of my house are painted that color! The house is brick and the > windows > are anodized dark bronze. Just had the doors repainted a few weeks ago. Took my Dark Green Locomotive Enamel drift card to Home Depot on Saturday. Their computer says it is "black". Obviously Home Depot is somehow a successor to the NYC!!! Will try Lowe's, or perhaps the local Ace Hardware. I'm planning to use DGLE for the exposed benchwork and fascia. I will later paint whatever walls aren't sceniced and the door with appropriate structure colors. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] turnouts Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:28:00 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Did the PRR have their own standards for turnouts or anything unique about them? Anybody know of a source for #12 or 14 templates for HO? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:33:47 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Craig Miller wrote: "Some months ago. this topic came up & I was rebuked by one of the members for discussing it. This is my first post since. <> Unless it gets to a point where trademark discussions are pre-empting everything else, I find it petty to pick and censor/censure people who make mention of it. We're not talking about trolls posting flames or porn here, it is a subject that is relevant to the modelers of every current railroad & fallen flag. I think it is relevant to the PRR (& the hope that we will not have to pay a "gratuity" for every keystone added to our collections) and should we ignore it then we will have no one left to blame but ourselves when down the road we find ourselves paying a "usage tariff" Not that I want to debate the matter at length, just that I abhor censorship, it kills creativity & sense of community." It's true that the trademark issue is of vital importance to the future of the hobby. It's true that it's a threat that we can't ignore and that everyone needs to get smart about the issues and take action. However, it's also true that discussion about these issues tend to hijack the forums in which they are discussed. I'm backing the list moderator on his call to make this topic off-limits on PRR-Talk. It's not a question of censorship. It's a question of focusing the discussion where it will do the most good. This topic has arisen on many model railroad lists, and it almost always generates spirited discussion. Unfortunately, it always comes at the expense of the central subject of the given list, and ultimately a lot of heat is generated with very little light shed on the subject. In effect, it's the same as watching your dog chase his tail. A lot of energy is wasted and nothing gets solved. As I said, it's a vital issue, but we need to discuss it in the right forum. If you care about this issue, I recommend you do two things: 1. Read Bob Hundman's editorial in the current issue of Mainline Modeler. He does an excellent job of spelling out the issues involved and makes suggestions how you can help. 2. If you want to continue the discussion online, Mike Brock has established a forum for just that at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Licen/ E-mail Licen-subscribe@yahoogroups.com to join. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:45:30 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] PRR recording X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi everyone, A guy I work with, gave me a VINYL record entitled "An Audi= o Documentary to Steam" The record came in a box, along with a 16 page b= ooklet . The Chairman of the Board and the President of the PRR are pict= ured on the back of the supplement. Could I get some history on this? W= hen was it released? What caused the PRR to commision this? What value w= ould I give to my insurance carrier? Thanks for the help Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:50:04 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted: The scenes are pretty much as described -- Chicago 21st St (Alton Jct.)., Englewood, St. Louis Union Station throat, Terre Haute. I was a researcher for this project and there were a few high-speed open-countryside shots that we couldn't identify, but were apparently either the Fort Wayne main line or the Vandalia St. Louis main line (double track, high speed, streamlined K4s, etc.). Dan Cupper Ted Andrews wrote: >Hi Dave: > >Thanks for the review on this new video. Are they any good shots on the Ft. Wayne line or Panhandle heading out of Chicago and into Indiana? > >Ted Andrews > ----- Original Message ----- > From: zootowerprr@webtv.net > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 9:12 PM > Subject: [PRR] New PRR Video/DVD > > > Greeting to all..... > > I picked up a new DVD today at the Timonium train show > called" The Pennsy's West End and it's Neighbors" from Green Frog > Productions. This is one of the best PRR steam movie I've seen in years. > It was shot between 1945 and 1950 by Gene Miller on 16mm color and b&w > film. This movie is 75% color and features T-1's,J1's,K4's M1's > H-class,C and N class,and even the S1. Lots of run-bys of double headed > K4s at track speed. There is a nice shot of a T1 departing Terre Haute > with the drivers slipping. > Early diesels are included. Brand new E7s and an ABBA set of > F3s on their first run. Centipedes in passenger service are also > featured. Shot on location in Chicago,Terre Haute, and St.Louis. This > tape is a MUST for any PRR fan! The last 8 to 10 minutes of the movie > features PRR's neighbors: NYC,C&O,Grand Trunk,Wabash. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] observation car for 1948 "Trailblazer" Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:04:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The POC70R was from the original 1939 train. It was replaced with the POC85AR in 1948 before the General and Trailblazer were combined. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > I concur, it was a POC70R. > > Once the trains were combined, there were sleepers in the consist and a > POC85 was on the rear... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:35:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Over the weekend I hiked this old PRR branch from Devault to Phoenixville. NS hasn't run trains on it in nearly two years, and there are many fallen trees, so we felt safe. We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in them. http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html Does anyone have any idea what they are? It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like that. They might be PRR, Conrail or NS. I'm hoping someone knows what they could be. This branch didn't have much traffic under NS, and probably not much more under Conrail, so I think it's Pennsy. thanks. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:35:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Over the weekend I hiked this old PRR branch from Devault to Phoenixville. NS hasn't run trains on it in nearly two years, and there are many fallen trees, so we felt safe. We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in them. http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html Does anyone have any idea what they are? It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like that. They might be PRR, Conrail or NS. I'm hoping someone knows what they could be. This branch didn't have much traffic under NS, and probably not much more under Conrail, so I think it's Pennsy. thanks. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:38:02 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Try a true paint store like Benjamin Moore, PPG, Glidden, etc. too. Or you might try to just match the drift card to a paint chip card. Jerry Britton wrote: > On Friday, May 28, 2004, at 10:57 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > >> PPG paint no. 7167 is a very close match to PRR Tuscan Red The doors and >> trim of my house are painted that color! The house is brick and the >> windows >> are anodized dark bronze. Just had the doors repainted a few weeks ago. > > > Took my Dark Green Locomotive Enamel drift card to Home Depot on > Saturday. Their computer says it is "black". > > Obviously Home Depot is somehow a successor to the NYC!!! > > Will try Lowe's, or perhaps the local Ace Hardware. > > I'm planning to use DGLE for the exposed benchwork and fascia. I will > later paint whatever walls aren't sceniced and the door with > appropriate structure colors. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:23:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MTH HO K4s photo stand in? Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:56:36 +0200 From: "Jlmcdaniel" Subject: [PRR] RE: Text message Cc: Chuck Blardone , Jack Consoli From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:47:41 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Minor error in the F unit article in the new Keystone (Vol. 37, No. 3)... The last sentence in the first column on page 14, which continues onto page 15 reads: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the A-units as there was room for them in the upper screened segment that was longer than those on the A-units due to the lack of a cab." Note that a comparison is made, but both are "A" units. It should read: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." Nauseatingly great article -- thanks Jack and Chuck! (Can't imagine how much is carrying over to part two!) P.S. How long did the F units retain the diaphragms between units? 1954 or not? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Chuck Blardone , Jack Consoli From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:47:41 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Minor error in the F unit article in the new Keystone (Vol. 37, No. 3)... The last sentence in the first column on page 14, which continues onto page 15 reads: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the A-units as there was room for them in the upper screened segment that was longer than those on the A-units due to the lack of a cab." Note that a comparison is made, but both are "A" units. It should read: "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." Nauseatingly great article -- thanks Jack and Chuck! (Can't imagine how much is carrying over to part two!) P.S. How long did the F units retain the diaphragms between units? 1954 or not? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 15:11:53 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would agree that it held something vertical for two reasons: 1. There is a rebar showing indicating this was the original position for these things since they are connected 2. The Eye Bolts indicate something vertical was steadied probably with some kind of cable. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from Bruce Smith : -------------- > On Oct 11, 2004, at 7:35 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > > We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in > > them. > > > > http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html > > > > Does anyone have any idea what they are? > > > > It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye > > on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like > > that. > > A tell-tale mast? (although why 2 is a question) Any clearance issues > around, like an overpass? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:28:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone check a track chart to see if anything was noted? I picture the two pieces of rail extending vertically as the frame for whatever it was. I suspect it held something that perhaps extended over the track and the bar between the blocks was used to prevent this "something" from falling down onto the tracks (via chain or wire). I agree that the eye bolts steadied this something laterally. Any evidence of piping? As in rural water stop? Was there ever a station in the area... mail pickup? Team track / derrick at one time? On Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 11:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I would agree that it held something vertical for two reasons: > 1. There is a rebar showing indicating this was the original position > for these things since they are connected > 2. The Eye Bolts indicate something vertical was steadied probably > with some kind of cable. > >>> >>> http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:50:23 +0200 From: "Jlmcdaniel" Subject: [PRR] Notification Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Text message Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD0A1D@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] RE: Text message Thread-Index: AcSwGGFJuoyZe2ziRHOEayRog5EZcgAYs73g From: "Owens, David" To: "PRR-TALK" Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2004 16:48:45.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[56892130:01C4B07B] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi there: two emails from jlmcdaniel@esva.net containing a virus have reached the = list. Could this person be removed. Thanks, Dave Owens -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jlmcdaniel Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:57 AM To: PRR-TALK Subject: [PRR] RE: Text message The original email was deleted because it contained the virus Bagle.AB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:02:47 -0400 Subject: LISTMASTER - Re: [PRR] RE: Text message From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First, this report should not have been made to the list. It should have been made to the listmaster directly. However, due to the recent outbreak, an explanation is due... Second, the way these viruses work is that they forge e-mail headers. I can verify that several of the header lines are forged. Usually the infected computer uses an address from the infected computer's address book as the REPLY address, meaning "jlmcdaniel@esva.net" may be an innocent bystander and not the culprit himself. Third, my mail filters are doing me a disservice, it would seem. By stripping the virus, it gets to the listserv. The listserv sees the REPLY address as a subscriber and the message contains no attachment so it processes it. If the anti-virus software hadn't stripped the attachment, the listserv would have killed it. Oy! Please bear in mind that extremely little SPAM gets to my lists -- compared to unmoderated groups on YeeHaw. My server recevies and blocks over 8,000 SPAMs/viruses PER WEEK! This is a one-man operation and sometimes new methods employed by SPAMmers require a few days attention to definitively determine a pattern. Acting too quickly results in "false positives", blocking legitimate traffic. Thank you. On Tuesday, October 12, 2004, at 12:48 PM, Owens, David wrote: > Hi there: > two emails from jlmcdaniel@esva.net containing a virus have reached > the list. Could this person be removed. > Thanks, > Dave Owens > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > Jlmcdaniel > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:57 AM > To: PRR-TALK > Subject: [PRR] RE: Text message > > > The original email was deleted because it contained the virus Bagle.AB > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 16:07:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Alex, Would this be the piece of track that came off the former Phila & Thorndale Br at Glen Loch? If so that would have been the old Phoenixville Br to Devault. If I am not mistaken that line did not go through to Devault in the later Conrail years. Unknown what it did before about 1992. Seems that it was cut off somewhere after RT 202 went under it. Its been a while since I have worked in that area. Now the other track it could be is the old Schuylkill Br from West Phila to Reading. There was a tunnel just after you left Phoenixville heading towards Royerford. There would have been tell tales on both sides somewhere for warning. Don't know if the tunnel is still there or not. I don't have my CR Phila div map close at hand to get other information. Pat McKinney Altoona,Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Sutton Subject: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Sutton Subject: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:51:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, I've been trying to access the society's web page but I keep getting = site not found. Is the society's web still not working? Any idea of when = it will be fixed? Thanks, Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:51:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, I've been trying to access the society's web page but I keep getting = site not found. Is the society's web still not working? Any idea of when = it will be fixed? Thanks, Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:52:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] NJCB B74 Horse Express X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone have a brass NJCB B74 horse express that they are willing to part with? I can provide it with a good home... Contact me offlist at _rgortowski@aol.com_ (mailto:rgortowski@aol.com) Thanks! Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:00:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & all, Was wondering how long it would be before somebody picked up any of those blasted unavoidable errors that creep into every published work - here Part I of my F-unit article. The ones I have collected so far are: pg. 14: last sentence should read "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." pg. 39 lower caption should read "FP7As #9835A-9834A..." pg. 68 first two lines were repeated from the prior page pg. 68 as the result of the above, the last two lines vaporized, so add back "wheels of both trucks (axles #1 & #3) and had an actuating line from the" pg. 68 second caption, last sentence should read "the later incarnation..." instead of "The reincarnation..." This kind of stuff is very frustrating to all involved - part of the problem is that once you read something so many times you aren't actually reading what is there anymore but what you know should there. For example, the first and last were correct in the first document but changed somewhere along the line without being noticed. The second was my brain fade....duh. The extra/missing lines happened after the last draft review during a final minor adjustment by the publisher. So what's in part two? More detailed stories of the changes made to the units such as the origins of the lifting lugs, the removal of the diaphragms (that started in 1954), coupler doors, etc., plus the painting and lettering evolution, some other odds and ends and lots more photos. If anyone catches anymore goofs in the article please drop me a note. Thanks. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry @ Pennsy To: PRR-talk Cc: Chuck Blardone ; Jack Consoli Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 6:47 AM Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata > Minor error in the F unit article in the new Keystone (Vol. 37, No. > 3)... > > The last sentence in the first column on page 14, which continues onto > page 15 reads: > > "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the A-units as > there was room for them in the upper screened segment that was longer > than those on the A-units due to the lack of a cab." > > Note that a comparison is made, but both are "A" units. It should read: > > "No air filters were placed between the portholes on the B-units..." > > Nauseatingly great article -- thanks Jack and Chuck! (Can't imagine > how much is carrying over to part two!) > > P.S. How long did the F units retain the diaphragms between units? 1954 > or not? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 01:08:35 -0400 To: prr-talk@dsop.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gentlemen, Thanks for the questions/answers... > Would this be the piece of track that came off the former Phila & > Thorndale Br at Glen Loch? If so that would have been the old Phoenixville Br to > Devault. If I am not mistaken that line did not go through to Devault in the > later Conrail years. Unknown what it did before about 1992. It went from Phoenixville to Frazer (to the Trenton Cutoff). > There was a tunnel just after you left Phoenixville heading towards > Royerford. There would have been tell tales on both sides somewhere for warning. Don't > know if the tunnel is still there or not. I don't have my CR Phila div map > close at hand to get other information. The tunnel is still there. If this was outside the wye, then you could get to the tunnel from here. But if it's inside, you'd need to reverse into it. In either case, you'd still need to go over a bridge and meet up with the other leg of the wye, BEFORE going into the tunnel. Here's an arial photo of the area. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx? t=1&s=11&x=1137&y=11107&z=18&w=2 If you've got an imagination, you can almost see the leg of the wye that was obliterated by that contstruction site. These boxes where on the "left field line" of that ball park near the bottom. Hard to say exactly where. > Alex were the objects in Phoenixville near the wye to the Reading/Norristown line ? If so they may have been part of > some support system for piping at the old Phoenixville Steel plant. The wye was in the middle of the plant way back > when. --- Ken McCorry One leg of the wye is completely gone. It's hard to tell if it was inside the wye. The Plant's infrastructure was all east of this spot. These things also sat alone, and nothing else was in the vicinity. > A tell-tale mast? (although why 2 is a question) Any clearance issues around, like an overpass? Nope. Up high on an embankment, between a long trestle and a highway overpass. > I suspect it held something that perhaps extended over the track and the bar between the blocks was used to prevent > this "something" from falling down onto the tracks (via chain or wire). > > I agree that the eye bolts steadied this something laterally. > > Any evidence of piping? As in rural water stop? None. It's not far from the Phoenixville train station. Pictures I've seen of it, showed water there. > Was there ever a station in the area... mail pickup? It's between two stations... kind of "urban" (still in Phoenixville boundaries) though out of the way. > Team track / derrick at one time? Negative. Here's a link to a topomap (an old one) that shows trackwork, and the approximate location. I could be off in either direction on the location. The only track that survives now is the one that runs from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock. http://topozone.com/map.asp? z=18&n=4442665&e=454843&s=25&size=l&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25 A mystery! thanks again! -alex On Oct 11, 2004, at 8:35 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > Over the weekend I hiked this old PRR branch from Devault to > Phoenixville. NS hasn't run trains on it in nearly two years, and > there are many fallen trees, so we felt safe. > > We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in > them. > > http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html > > Does anyone have any idea what they are? > > It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye > on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like > that. > > They might be PRR, Conrail or NS. I'm hoping someone knows what they > could be. > This branch didn't have much traffic under NS, and probably not much > more under Conrail, so I think it's Pennsy. > > thanks. > -alex > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:07:34 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A Public Timetable of May 1948 shows: Pgh - Brownsville passenger service of 5 southbound trains: #810 daily except Sunday, except May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Pgh 4:47 pm, arrive Brownsville 7:17 pm. #814 only ran May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Pgh 4:19 pm, arrive Brownsville 6:49 pm. #812 daily, except May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Pgh 4:19 pm, arrive Brownsville 6:14 pm, no checked baggage. #804 Saturday only, depart Pgh 1:00 pm, arrive Brownsville 2:55 pm, no checked baggage. #806 daily except Sunday, departs Pgh 8:10 am, arrive Brownsville 10:35 am, (through train on Monongahela Railway to Fairmont W. Va.), arrives Fairmont 1:10 pm. 3 northbound trains: #807 daily except Sunday, except May 31, July 5, Sept. 6, depart Brownsville 4:50 am, arrive Pgh 6:55 am, no checked baggage. #801 daily except Sunday, depart Brownsville 5:55 am, arrive Pgh 7:45 am. #815 daily except Sunday, depart Fairmont 2:50 pm, arrive Brownsville 5:20 pm, arrive Pgh 7:40 pm. A Monongahela Railway Timetable of September 1948 lists only trains 807, 815, 806 & 810, (but also list the northbound Fairmont train as #833). One RPO route was still operating on the Mon during that period - the Pittsburgh & Fairmont RPO over the joint PRR/MRY service on trains 806 & 833 (sometimes listed as 7806 & 7833) and it was authorized for a 15' mail section, but I was told that 30' section cars were used for the route as well. I have seen a photo of #833 with a BM70ka (30' RPO section) and a single P70 in December 1949. All I have heard and photos I have seen of those trains they utilized "hot" P70 coaches (non-air-conditioned) during that period. Commuter locomotives assigned there were: G5s #1960 10/48 through (at least) 9/49 G5s #3064 through (at least) 10/48 G5s #3108 through (at least) 9/49 G5s #3109 through (at least) 6/49 G5s #3571 through (at least) 9/49 K2sa #6229 through (at least) 7/49 Merchandise Service operated on the division as well, at least in 1951. Don't know off the top of my head when it started. Hope this helps a little, Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Angela Sutton To: PRR-Talk Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service > A few questions for you all... > > PRRPro is beginning the P70 project next week. I am > interested in working on some cars for Pittsburgh-area > commuter service, c. 1948-49, specifically the north > end of the Monongahela Division. The timetables I > have seen are from the early '30's (a dozen or so > commuter trains plus through service to the > Monongahela Railway at Brownsville) and 1954 (one lone > commuter train each way). I am guessing service in > the '40's fell somewhere in between those extremes, > but does anyone know how many commuter runs were > operating? > > Also, what equipment would be found on a typical > train? My guesswork would be G5s pulling 2-3 standard > P-70 coaches (not air-conditioned or modernized). > Would any modernized coaches have found their way into > the commuter pool yet? > > And finally, was there any mail or express service on > the Mon division at this time? If so, would any B or > BM type cars be moving over the division? > > Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:37:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 2,000,000 Served! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <2564D33A-1D36-11D9-A451-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Over the past 24 hours, "Keystone Crossings" served its 2 millionth page! (That's a page count, not a hit count.) I'm amazed that it happened that quick. I had checked early yesterday and it was at 1,197,xxx. Now it's already at 2,014,xxx. That's 17,000 page serves a day!!! We hit 1 million in April 2002, just before the PRRT&HS annual meeting in Camp Hill. So it took 30 months to hit the second million. It took about 72 months for the first million. So, how long until 3 million? Better start those office pools! Thanks for making "Keystone Crossings" the most popular Pennsy destination on the net! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] Condolences to Al Buchan Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:40:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:47:25 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Condolences to Al Buchan Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To al and All, I would aslo like to offer my deepest condolences to the Buchan Family as I too lost my Father earlier this year and understand fully the impact. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:08:51 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] F Unit Article Errata >From: "jconsoli" >Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:00:07 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] OT Madison Wisconsin Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:45:58 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'll be in Madison Wisconsin from 10/16-10/20 for a training course, fittingly a railroad engineering course. Unfortunately I'll have no car but I was wondering if there are any good train things to do/see in either modeling or prototype. Please reply off-list so as not to waste bandwidth. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: " Ralph & Janet Kuester" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:31:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I don't know where I really need to start but your site came up on the = web. I have an old wooden trunk that you can vaguely make out an old sticker = that says Pennsylvania Railroad Emigrant Line New York to Wheeling, (this last line is pretty much gone; but I think it says Pittsburgh and = _____________) My husband and I both enjoy railroad memorabilia and just wonder when = this trunk traveled. =20 Any information will be appreciated. Thanks Janet Kuester ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Condolences to Al Buchan Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:04:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <0FCD316A.6BB92343.0261055E@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanx Greg and to all of you that have individually taken time from your busy schedules to offer condolences on the passing of my mother. It is difficult to have someone that you have spent your entire life with suddenly leave. She was a fine Christian woman and I know she has gone home to be with the Lord. Al and Janet ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR modules Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:12:33 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any thoughts or suggestions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR modules Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:12:33 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any thoughts or suggestions? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR modules Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:42:08 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:12 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will > build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I > retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that > either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in > HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. > That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any > thoughts or suggestions? Yep, you're worrying about the wrong thing! Unless your module consists of a straight track from end to end, with no curves or turnouts, your 36" rule isn't going to work! Any curves or turnouts will immediately mean that you are at some odd measurement. In addition, the BEST joints are made by laying the track ACROSS the joint and then cutting it. Perfect alignment every time. Note that you might solder the bottom of the rail to an imbedded screw head on each side of the gap to keep things locked down. To me the critical issues are size and weight. Thus around 6', with a max of 8' is a maneuverable size... will it fit out the door, up the stairs etc in your current place. What about that staircase in the house you move to? Oh, you don't know what that house looks like, right... so you have to plan for tight spots!!! As for weight., I'm building all my modules in an "eggcrate" style with 1/4 luan - very strong, very light... and you pay movers by the pound... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:11:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] F Unit Article in Keystone From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <63A987C2-1DF3-11D9-A10A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One more note to Jack Consoli regarding his fine work on the F Unit article in the new Keystone... How soon can you start work on the E Unit article? ;-) I got through another 15 or so pages last night. Mind-boggling amounts of information! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Plates MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Anyone here able to help figure out what Baldwin Diesel Locomotive constructon #74103 was from? I am sure there is a list somewhere but nothing on the net that I could find. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Plates MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Anyone here able to help figure out what Baldwin Diesel Locomotive constructon #74103 was from? I am sure there is a list somewhere but nothing on the net that I could find. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:08:06 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002b01c4b0b6$6e595060$35682444@smiths> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sometime during Saturday September 26th the Society's website host, US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and in the process it appears they obliterated it. Webmaster Steve Agostini and I are in the process of trying to get things back to normal but your indulgence is requested, as it may take awhile. Unfortunately both Steve and I have been beset with problems involving our families and additional work, which take first priority. We'll keep you all posted. In the meantime: If you wish to use our e-Store you may access it at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html The Discussion Web may be accessed at: http://p214.ezboard.com/fprrthsdiscussionweb30239frm2 The October TKM may be accessed at: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf October's e-NEWS will be sent to all subscribers tomorrow, October 15th. To subscribe send a blank message to: And all four of the Society's Yahoo sites are operational. PRR-FAX, PRR-Modeling, PRR-Signaling:, and PRR Projects. Thanx for your continued interest. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:27:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society's Web Page From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <000001c4b221$26e8ea80$6401a8c0@ABBuchan> Message-Id: <0F2CC710-1E17-11D9-A10A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 03:08 PM, Al Buchan wrote: > Sometime during Saturday September 26th the Society's website > host, > US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older > equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and > in the process it appears they obliterated it. Very odd that they not only killed the web site, but also the DNS records, while other DNS records on the same DNS servers continue to function. (US LEC's Internet division is FastNet and the servers in question are ns1.fast.net, ns2.fast.net, and ns3.fast.net, all of which continue to operate.) I suggest they are not being fully honest with you... or at least the story is being changed "somewhere". Why not do a quick edit of the domain registration and at least get a placeholder page up on another server with an explanation, along with links to the other services that ARE working. At least then you are not losing potential members. Worry about the rest of the content later. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:30:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: mtevans@jps.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Society's Web Page X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton said [snip]: >>Why not do a quick edit of the domain registration and at least get a placeholder page up on another server with an explanation, along with links to the other services that ARE working. At least then you are not losing potential members. Worry about the rest of the content later.<< Better yet, Jerry, why don't we leave Mr. Buchan and Mr. Agostini alone to take care of things in their usual thorough and professional manner? I think that we all have plenty of other useful things to do while they are rebuilding the web site. Al and Steve, keep up the good work. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Society Web Page Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Society Web Page From: OhThoseVoices@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:17:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] prr module X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am in the process of building a sectional/modular layout,but using a combo of bi fold luan doors.All set up,with shelf brackets,and very strong and lightweight also.The duckunder/bridge will be hinged,but the rest of the joints have about five to seven inches of track across the gaps.I tried the flush edged track on the bridge/liftout/duckunder section,but too much of an irregularity,especially in "N" scale code 55.So,I have installed three inch overlaps there also. If I ever have to move,I can rearrange the modules,but with hindsight,I would've made the track on each end exactly the same,so complete interchangability would be possible.Oh well. Good luck,best regards. Jeff Jacobs Newbie SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] REA expres refers Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:13:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I know that this is not exactly PRR material however, I would appreciate = any help on the matter. I am interested in information about the REA = express refer paint schemes. When did the red and white logo with the = gold lettering first appear? How about the red and white logo with the = white lettering? Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:27:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger loco assignments X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/14/04 8:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:59:11 -0000 > From: "rangerjim94us01" > Subject: Terminal Assignments of EMD E-Units > > > > Does anyone have any information on the terminals to which Pennsy's > fleet of EMD E7 and E8 diesels, together with FP7s and other passenger > equipped diesels were assigned? > > Jim Mancuso In what little I'm exposed to, the systemwide E's were assigned to the Harrisburg enginehouse, and returned there on a regular, planned rotation. Early on, some FP-7's were assigned to Cincinnati, but apparently their base of maintenance moved at least up to Columbus later, though they were still commonly seen out of Cincinnati on the Richmond Branch and up the GR&I. As one might expect, (at least some of) the passenger-equipped GP-7's were assigned to Chicago, where they worked the Valpo commuter trains. On more than one occasion, one or two of these Geeps brought trains as far away from Chicago as Louisville, as local railfan photos show. I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:27:17 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Passenger loco assignments In a message dated 10/14/04 8:30:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Does anyone have any information on the terminals to which Pennsy's > fleet of EMD E7 and E8 diesels, together with FP7s and other passenger > equipped diesels were assigned? > > Jim Mancuso In what little I'm exposed to, the systemwide E's were assigned to the Harrisburg enginehouse, and returned there on a regular, planned rotation. Early on, some FP-7's were assigned to Cincinnati, but apparently their base of maintenance moved at least up to Columbus later, though they were still commonly seen out of Cincinnati on the Richmond Branch and up the GR&I. As one might expect, (at least some of) the passenger-equipped GP-7's were assigned to Chicago, where they worked the Valpo commuter trains. On more than one occasion, one or two of these Geeps brought trains as far away from Chicago as Louisville, as local railfan photos show. I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: suvcworr@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:04:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] Passenger loco assignments In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:28:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. There were some passenger equipped RS-3's assigned to the 28th Street roundhouse in Pittsburgh which were used in Pittsburgh commuter service. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:04:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Passenger loco assignments X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/15/2004 7:28:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: I get the feeling the patterns for Alco power were more complicated. There were some passenger equipped RS-3's assigned to the 28th Street roundhouse in Pittsburgh which were used in Pittsburgh commuter service. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:52:46 -0400 From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Picture Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:48:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gents, Although I deleted the e-mail a few days ago, I had a=20 thought about the picture. If, there are any nearby=20 roadcrossings, it could have been for an elevated relay=20 locker. I pass one everyday along the Northern Central on=20 its street trackage on my walk into work. This wouldn't explain the eyebolts on the bottom, but my=20 theory would conclude that theres a possibility the base=20 was pre-cast and the yebolts were there for a crane to=20 poisiton it with a cable into the correct position.=20 This same principle is used with modern pre-cast concrete=20 wall sections where a 6" piece of rebar is bent to act as=20 a hook for the overhead crane to attach, and later an=20 on-site crane. Once the wall section is in place the wall=20 surface is finished off and nobody knows the wiser. The railroad would have no reason to cover these anchors=20 for asthetic purposes. A few cents worth of thought. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:49:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale Part 1 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond $ 95 PRR CT 1000E 5-1-45,Very Good cond. $35 PRR CT 1000C 5-1-45,Very Good Cond $85 PRR CT 4001 6-1-64,new,never issued $20 PRR Altoona Shops & Yards,Shows shop layout & complete yd $25 PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a front view, a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8 tracks wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11 $25 PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to Slope, Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14 $25 PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & inclines, New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen. $9 PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper $1 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay $350.00 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60,very good cond. $21 PRR MW52(D) Unused,Excellent Cond $27 PRR C.E. 78 Manual for construction,unused, excellent cond. $27 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused $5 PRR Annual Report-1925 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle $45 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.24 9-27-36 $40 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.30 9-24-39 $40 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.9 4-27-47 $35 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.3 9-28-52 $30 PRR Mid. Mid. Div No.6 4-25-54 $30 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.5, 4-27-58,VGused cond w/G.O.'s $25 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.8, 10-25-59,VG used cond,not issued $25 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.11,10-29-61,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Pgh. Reg. ETT No.12,10-28-62, VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s $20 PRR Hiring Manual - Nov,1956 Very good cond, $20 PRR Elec. Opr. Inst.,1960 rev.,VG cond, unissued $9 PRR Book of Rules,10-28-56,VG cond,unissued $9 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, 75 cents $10 ea.bk PRR Grab bag assrtmnt of over 23 items in brown interoffice evlp - $25 PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin $30 PRR 40 year Silver service pin $30 PRR Lounge Car Smoking Stand,Good used cond,not perfect,as it came out of the lounge car,Heavy $450.00 PRR Flag & Fusee Case $45 PRR Stainless Steel water can,Very Good cond $45, W/O lid - $40 PRR Keystone Whislte Sign,Excellent cond,Repainted( had to before the pigeon dirt corroded it),Heavy $250 Thank You Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:50:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Items for Sale Part 2 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water marks on cover only $5 PC 1967 Annual Report - good used cond $10 PC 1968 Annual Report - good used cond $10 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.4 5-1-70,New,no G.O.'s $17 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.4 5-1-70,with G.O.'s $15 PC Cent. Reg. ETT No.5 12-15-72,with green vinyl cover $18 PC Leather Conductors Wallet,Well used but still nice cond $10 PC MW1-New Unused $ 15 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section for inspection,2nd section for construction $12 PC Grab Bag assrmnt of 14 items in Lrg PC 11 x 14 envlp - $20 PC MW4 - New cond,no cover $10 PC MW4 - New Cond,unused $15 PC Hand towel,Green logo and name sewn in - $18 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 PC Long neck Journal oil can,VG used cond $45 CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $100 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 CR Annual Report-1982,83,85,86,87 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent. $30 CR Safety Committee sewn patch,blue background,white logo and letters $10 CR First Aid Kit,Opened,one or two packets used,VG cond,a must for train room $35 CR STARR Car Insp Blue Lite,Flashes,New, never used - $30 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy $35 Pullman Hand Towel,has PC & UP logo stamped in black ink over ea.other,gd cond - $18 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only $50pr Atlas SD7,w/DB, undec,new ,never run,cracked plastic box $45 Atlas SD9,NKP,no DB,new ,never run,w/plastic box $45 Unmarked Flag & Fusee case,used but good cond - $30 Unmarked Kero can,used good cond. - $35 Unmarked Battery Flashing Marker,New, never used - $35ea.,Pair - $60 Unmarked STARR Car Insp blue lite,non-Flashing - $25 Thank you. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Joebrann@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am building a freelanced HO-scale based in Williamsport, PA. As a freelanced RR we have incorporated many concepts and terminology from our neighboring big brother; but I still have a question. I have been very kindly pointed to the CT1000 series of books; but I don't think my answer is there. So my question is what system of sort identification did the PRR use in the early 1950-s? The CT1000 book seemed to give station and siding but not individual spot IDs. thanks Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Joebrann@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:08:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am building a freelanced HO-scale based in Williamsport, PA. As a freelanced RR we have incorporated many concepts and terminology from our neighboring big brother; but I still have a question. I have been very kindly pointed to the CT1000 series of books; but I don't think my answer is there. So my question is what system of sort identification did the PRR use in the early 1950-s? The CT1000 book seemed to give station and siding but not individual spot IDs. thanks Joe Brann Owner / Engineer Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) Orlando, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:02:23 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, You are looking for something that did not exist. Penn Central adopted what was called the DICCS (Demurrage Inventory Car Control) system from the NYC which assigned local numbers to sidings, and Conrail adopted a systemwide numbering called SPINS. But, THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD HAD NO SUCH SYSTEM AT ALL. So, you can't find the information you are seeking. The CT1000 is the best you'll find. I worked in the traffic department of the PRR as Office Manager, Rate Clerk, and Sales Representative. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 8:08 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s > > I am building a freelanced HO-scale based in Williamsport, PA. As a > freelanced RR we have incorporated many concepts and terminology from our > neighboring > big brother; but I still have a question. I have been very kindly pointed > to > the CT1000 series of books; but I don't think my answer is there. So my > question is what system of sort identification did the PRR use in the > early 1950-s? > The CT1000 book seemed to give station and siding but not individual spot > IDs. > > thanks > > Joe Brann > Owner / Engineer > Susquehanna Valley Line RR (HO-scale) > Orlando, FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:31:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg, my impression agrees with your statement that the Pennsy didn't have such a system, but I own a Conrail ZTS (Zone-Track-Spot) book for Chicago-Elkhart. Did they use SPINS before ZTS as a designation? Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Conrail adopted a systemwide > numbering called SPINS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:41:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:39:51 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Randy and list, Was not aware of a symbol system for car placement on the Chicago Division. I suspect that many terminals had some sort of system to differentiate sidings, but these were local and not system. There were also "left-right reports" but those were TOP SECRET, sort of, made for office car trips by the top brass. Bob and Al, I was thinking of ZTS, another RR must have called the same system SPINS - bet it was the SP. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Williamson" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; ; Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s > At 08:02 PM 10/15/2004, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >>You are looking for something that did not exist. Penn Central adopted >>what was called the DICCS (Demurrage Inventory Car Control) system from >>the NYC which assigned local numbers to sidings, and Conrail adopted a >>systemwide numbering called SPINS. But, THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD HAD NO >>SUCH SYSTEM AT ALL. So, you can't find the information you are seeking. >>The CT1000 is the best you'll find. > > > Greg, > > What about the Symbol System for Car Placement the Pennsy used on the > Chicago Division? Or is that similar to the CT1000. > > Randy > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:45:14 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:09:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? = Where the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could = they be found on any train? Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:09:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? = Where the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could = they be found on any train? Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:32:03 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff Smith asked: "Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? Were the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could they be found on any train?" Gregg Mahlkov answered: "The cars marked "Merchandise Service" were used to transport Less Than Carload (LCL) freight between freight houses and were generally used on line. PRR had special trains between major yards that handled LCL and Freight Forwarder traffic and were designated LCL-#. Not all LCL freight moved in "Merchandise Service" cars, but they were used almost entirely to handle LCL freight. Since LCL was often interchanged in "ferry cars" moving in switching service between freight houses of each railroad at junction points, these cars rarely if ever left the PRR." Some did - a photo of a Class X29 car in MS2 passing through Council Bluffs, Iow in 1954 is in PRR Color Guide Vol 2. However, the Class X29 cars assigned to LCL service lacked the special handling equipment that the Class X29B, X40B, and X41 cars had, and this car may have been "stolen" for general freight service. See my article in the October issue of "The Keystone Modeler" for more information on PRR Merchandise Service boxcars: http://home.comcast.net/~abbuchan1/TKM_No._15_10-04_PDF.pdf Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:49:05 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Steam Heat From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <330FEEFF-1FBD-11D9-82DA-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.169 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi group, In getting ready for the upcoming P70 project I posed a question to this group about the change from a hose to articulated pipe for the steam line connection between cars. Further investigation has shed some light on the subject. Originally steam connections were a hose with a connector similar to a brake line. By 1893 the PRR had 41% of its cars converted to steam and another 23% on the way. The relatively low pressure of direct and indirect car heating was within the limits of the hose. In 1904 vapor heat was introduced and the steam line pressure went up. the hose topped out at 130 pounds, and PRR manuals at the time advise not to exceed 115 pounds. The hoses wore out quickly and steam pressure went beyond its limits so the pipe connector began to be used and by the end of the '20's was the more common. Hoses were barred for interchange service in 1937. Steam pipes were 2" and in 1948 2.5". The various heating systems and connector types caused compatibility problems. From "The American Railroad Passenger Car" by John White, Jr. and PRR heating and ventilating systems 1910 and 1920. I'm guessing that the P70 was never built with indirect heating. I know, never say never. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Lehman" Subject: [PRR] Invoice/Train Order for Cambridge, Md 10/28/1958 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 19:41:26 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yesterday I bought 2 Invoice/Train Order for Cambridge, Md from = 10/28/1958 & 10/31/1958 at antique store. Here is what they looked like The Pennsylvania Railroad = C.T 248-8 Chesapeake Region = 125m 6x12 7-12-55 Delmarva Dist. Division = Order for drilling freight cars Cambridge Md Station 10/28/1958 to Condr.D200 Hours 6 A.M. CAR To be shipped = = Remarks -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------------------- Initials Numbers From what track or train = number To what track or train number W.M 13239 D201 of 27th = Rear Yard #5 X = Coal W.M. 10618 do do = Rear Yard #5 E = Coal MKT 92188 do do = Dorc. Fertz. Platform X Wabash 7777 do do = Dorc. Fertz. Next Rear X N.Y.C 107005 do do = Natl Can = See below PLE 30236 do do = Natl Can = do do Erie 81443 do do = Natl Can = do do Put two Natl Cars behind cars behind cars now at door 2 & 3 or leave out = until next shift.=20 Leave one at door #1. Three cars stone for Linkwood leave on storage = track. Take six hoppers of stone from storage to Linkwood. Take one empty box from yard #5 to Linkwood to Load Wood. Move three empty grain box yard #0 to Hurlock or Preston. Dorchester Fertz. wants tanks pulled toward switch far enough so they = can pull one empty from platform & place X. CBQ 91272 Yard #1 = Colehour, Al ed = empty D & H 7578 Nuttle = Hudson, Pa = ed empty C.N.W 3401 Natl Can = Coastal #25 = empty PLE 22068 " " = Coastal #25 = empty place other two cars " " = Doors 2 and 3 WFEX 66786 25 = Waterloo, Iowa ed = x cg BREX 76138 25 = Rockford, Ill = ed x cg WFEX 66461 25 = Rockford, Ill = ed x cg Wabash 88091 25 = New Cumberland, Pa ed x = cg T&NO 58885 25 = New Cumberland, Pa ed x = cg move four RFGRS storage = 25-26 move two RFGRS 20 = yard #1 PRR 77165 Linkwood = Spring Grove, Pa = XW00 PRR 717165 Linkwood = Altoona, Pa ed = empty PRR 193787 Linkwood = Altoona, Pa ed = empty Check with unloader and move any more that are empty. This report must be filed with jurisdiction Agent as promptly as = possible after completion of work. The initials and numbers of cars to be dispatched must be given to the Yardmaster at one hour before leaving time of train. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Lehman" Subject: [PRR] Invoice/Train Order Cambridge,Md 10/31/1958 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 19:53:44 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Pennsylvania Railroad = C.T. 248-8 12 Chesapeake Region = 125m 6x12 7-12-55 Delmarva Dist. Division = Order for drilling freight cars Cambridge Md Station 10/31/1958 to Condr.D200 Hours 6 A.M=20 CAR To be shipped = = Remarks -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------------------- Initials Numbers From what track or train = number To what track or train number C & O 28298 D201 of 30th = 20 = X Beans LV 61471 do do = Yard #1 = X Mdse I.C. 25219 do do = Dorc. Fertz. Platform = X Potash WM 28639 do do = Yard #x1 = X Cement CN 541381 do do = Yard #1 = X Cement There is a tank behind platform being unloaded handle with care. NP 19580 Camb. Mfg. Co. = Canton Balto MD Ed X = Beans UP 182869 Yard #1 = Camb. Mfg. Co. = Empty WFEX 66441 Yard #1 = Sunbury, Pa Ed = X Cg F.G.E 57720 Yard #1 = Sunbury, Pa = Ed X Cg W.M. 13239 Yard #5 = York, Pa = Ed Empty W.M. 10806 Yard #5 = York, Pa = Ed Empty Move the eight empty box yard #5 to rear of Linkwood for wood loading. N & W 53296 25 = Petersburg, Va = Ed X Cg CNW 3491 25 = Charlotte, Nc = S X Cg PLE 22068 25 = Hampton, Va = S X Cg WFEX 73160 25 = St Paul, Minn = Ed X Cg FGEX 39300 25 = Linden, Nj = Ed X Cg PRR 68859 Linkwood = Spring Grove, Pa Ed = X Wood Move the empty cars from Linkwood Tickets at D. Hereto Southern 30928 20 = Yard #5 to = be inspected MILW. 18100 20 = Yard #5 do = do do CNW 82600 Natl. Can Co. = Yard #5 do do = do CNW 86906 Natl. Can Co. = Yard #5 do do = do MEC 4889 Natl. Can Co. = Yard #5 do = do do Leave PLE 5920 and CNW 9025 at doors 2 & 3. Move one 46 ft. cond. storage = Natl. Can door #1 Move SAL box rear of Frozen food to Platform #25 This report must be filed with jurisdiction Agent as promptly as = possible after completion of work. The initials and numbers of cars to be dispatched must be given to the Yardmaster at one hour before leaving time of train. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 23:56:56 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <002301c4adc4$ae304210$dcb172d8@your6bvpxyztoq> Thread-index: AcStxTfTchOJ9tf0QQK95z1Hnt5oVAGN0lcA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I suppose so, but here is how I have done it. I used a standard streamlined roof, usually from a Rivarossi car, but TSP roof is probably the better choice now. Cut it to the correct length including the slight overhang. I then build a flat end and glue the door posts on made from plastic channel (3/32 inch as I recall). I then cut a curved piece of .020 plastic for the letterboard extension that would have been on the top of the end if the car had a more typical HW roof. I then back fill behind this with Squadron putty. If this is a vestibule end, I then glue plastic bulkheads on between the door posts and the corner of the car. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Fred in Vt. Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 1:56 AM To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST'; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights Andy & list- Is it feasable to sand/file one end, place a backing strip on the inside of the roof, then sand an insert to match the cobbled end configuration? given that the correct ends are used in assembly. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" ; Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 9:56 AM Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, > GS, etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a > heavyweight end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as > real streamlined cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is > the one for postwar P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gi > f > if&sel > =coa&sz=sm&fr> &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= > > The difference in the vestibule (B) and non-vestibule (A) ends is that > on the B end the sheathing goes over the vertical end posts, providing > space inside the car for the door traps. On the A end the sheathing > goes inside end posts, providing an easier flat construction, and a > place for the brakeman to ride outside the car. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > > > _____ > > From: Robert Kessler [mailto:robertke@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 4:19 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk LIST' > Subject: RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > > Bruce: > > As I type this I have a mostly completed NKP P70GSR and PRR Color > Guide Vol. > 3 open to p.8 (P70GSR and P70KR) sitting on my desk. The roof ends of > both the model and the prototype are neither squared-off as is the > case with the Pullman, ACF and Budd lightweights, nor is it of > compound curvature as is the case with the B60B and the arch-roofed > P70FBR. What we have here is simple-curvature transition from the end > of the arch roof, in-line with the ends of the car-sides (a straight > line across the roof, to the arched car-ends. The nit I have to pick > with the NKP roof end is that it has a slight radius on the edge > between the roof arch and the end transition panel. The prototype > photos show a sharp edge instead. > > There is a real problem with the NKP kits in that they supply the same > end casting for both ends of the cars. PRR used the arched end at the > vestibule end of the P70 cars, and a different, mostly flat end for > the blind ends. > The problem is fixed with an inexpensive BCW part, I'll have to hunt > up the part number later, and a lot of sanding to get the part > thickness right. > > Bob Kessler > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:12 PM > To: PRRPro@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk LIST > Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE > Subject: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights > > > On Oct 7, 2004, at 1:37 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > >> Hi Jerry--Stepping out on a limb a bit, but with the impending start >> of P70 modeling on Bruce's list, this is important. For my purposes >> here, I'll call the roof type found on the B60b a balloon roof, and >> the type found on P70fbr, etc., a low-arch roof. My belief is that >> both the P70gsR and the P70kR had the low-arch roof, but not with a >> squared off end as on the lightweight sleepers. The only photos I >> have seen of either car, and the diagrams on Rob's site, show the >> cars with full-width diaphragms, which were long gone by 1954. These >> diaphragms could have covered up the rounded end of the roof, if I am >> correct. NKP Car Co. at >> http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_P70KR_mod_coach_display.htm >> seems to have incorporated the rounded roof. > > Oh goody! I was saving this question for discussion on the PRRPro > group, but since it has come up we can hammer it down now. I am of > the opposite opinion from Steve. I believe that the ends of the roof > on the P70GSR, P70KR and most importantly for me the modernized PB70D > are shown incorrectly on the NKP site. I noted this in the list sent > out to the PRRPro group. These cars were built with full width > diaphragms that were as tall as the top of the roof line, just like > the lightweight cars being built at the time. Thus the ends were > "squared off" and the diaphragms mounted directly. I will double > check tonight, but I believe that the PRR Coaches book (Bob L) shows this feature. > The P70GR and P70GS both had rounded ends, according to the diagrams. > The P70K diagram show narrow diaphragms and square ends circa 1954 > (http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70k.gif) and > as Steve states the P70KR diagram has square ends, but it is an early > diagram with full width diaphragms. > > Interestingly, the diagrams for the PB70D show rounded ends, but I > believe that I have seen photos of the passenger end with a full width > diaphragm and a squared end. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 6/D=gr > oups/S=1705063576:HM/EXP=1097266791/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http: > //comp > anion.yahoo.com> click here > > ups/S= > :HM/A=2128215/rand=492360820> > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/YSTolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~- > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRRPro-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:40:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cove signal bridge X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just in case it hasn't been mentioned the classic PRR position light signal bridge spanning 3 tracks at MP 116 at Cove, Pa south of Duncannon is in the process of being replaced by a modern version with new style signals. Still in service today, the first main support post of the new one is in place on the west side of the tracks with the bridge mostly assembled sitting on the ground. By this time next month it will be gone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:21:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Chicago Hobby Show From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:43:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Hobby Show MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Ken, That's the way most "hobby" shows are. Very little trains and big on diecast,RC planes,cars,etc. The East Coast Hoppy Show is the same way here in Phila. (Fort Washington Expo). I go to see what Athearn,Walthers, Atlas,Like-Like and others have planned for the future. Any news on the BLI K4 release date? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] Getting your models into The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:59:45 -0700 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Getting your models into The Keystone Modeler Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 18:17:20 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As one of the published authors whose modeling effort is average at best I heartily concur with Elden's comments. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." : -------------- > Hi all; > > I wanted to ask each and every one of you to consider writing an article for > the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society's magazine, "The > Keystone Modeler". > > If you have not already seen it, the magazine is published on-line, and is > free to all (the website is currently down for re-construction, but should > be back up soon), and features a broad range of PRR equipment, structures > and infrastructure, as modeled by a variety of folks. While a lot of > prototype info is included, the focus of the magazine is on modeling, as a > companion to the Society's flagship, and prototype/historically-oriented > hardcopy publication "The Keystone". > > Because the magazine is free, we do not have the funds to pay authors, but > it is a great chance to get an article in print without the usual > constraints on your work. We are not limited by text length (so far, at > least!), subject matter, or most importantly number and size of images (we > like to present a LOT of photos), but ask that it be of a PRR subject. > > I've seen a lot of really exceptional PRR modeling, and would love to see > some of it displayed and discussed in the manner it deserves, not some > chopped-down little article with miniscule b&w images, or some tiny photo > where you can't see the craft that goes into a model. > > BTW, several folks that had not written for a publication before got in > contact with us, wrote a draft article and took images, got feedback from > us, and published great articles and images in a relatively short time > frame. If you were considering it, do it! > > We are currently looking for submittals on PRR passenger cars, steam, > electrics, structures, and lineside details. And as always, we continue to > publish a wide variety of articles on freight cars and diesels. > > Please feel free to contact myself, Al Buchan, or Jack Consoli (reply to > this, and we will all get it), about how to get involved. > > Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you; > > Elden Gatwood > Chair, PRRT&HS Modeling Committee > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lawrence Rast" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:20:27 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are a couple of nice recent pics of the Signal Bridge at = http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=3D80347 and = http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=3D80534. Also one at = http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D40760. Regards, Larry Rast ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KLJURY@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Just in case it hasn't been mentioned the classic PRR position light signal bridge spanning 3 tracks at MP 116 at Cove, Pa south of = Duncannon is in the process of being replaced by a modern version with new style signals. Still in service today, the first main support post of the = new one=20 is in place on the west side of the tracks with the bridge mostly assembled = sitting on the ground. By this time next month it will be gone. =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OhThoseVoices@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 20:01:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com it really was sad to see the "new" stuff there....but the PRR bridge was making the last stand before the south won the war.. Iron,and rusted,Aged and many first kisses were made there,The shiny silver won't be anything but cold...informal..robotic... LONG LIVE THE PRR Jeff Jacobs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:42:21 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ladies and Gents, On a happier note, before tiring this entinel to many=20 years of service Norfolk Southern offered this signal=20 bridge to a railroad museum. If all goes as planned,=20 arrangements have already been made to take apart the=20 bridge, sand blast it, and cut it down to size to fit, in=20 working order somewhere else within Pennsylvania, gaurding=20 engines that once traveled by its signal. Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 03:52:53 +0000 From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Common Types of Air Horns Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 06:25:34 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com From another list and worthy of a repost... On Oct 19, 2004, at 1:26 AM, jconsoli wrote: To summarize the data presented in my article on the F-units in the autumn Keystone, For the F's: 1947-1949 F's were built with Leslie A-200 single note horns (40 F3A + 20 F7A) 1951 F7A's were built with Leslie A-125-3E ( 68 A-units) 1950 F7A + 1952 FP7A were built with Nathan M3 (27 F7A + 40 FP7A) 1952 F7A built with Leslie S3-J (8 F7A) Additionally, for the E's: 1st two 1945 E7A built with dual single horns All other E7A built with Leslie A-200 (44 A-units) 1950 E8 A-units were built with M3 (10 units) 1951 units were built with Leslie A-125-3E (18 units) 1952 units were built with a mixture of M3 and S3-J (46 units) So the totals were: A-200 = 104 A-125-3E = 86 M3 = 67 + approx. 20-ish S3-J = 8 + approx. 26-ish other = 2 Note that this was for the as-built condition of the units. Many changes occurred over the lives of the units. As far as I found, all the EFP-15's retained their EFP-15 classes until the were disposed of, indicating that they were still equipped for dual service, which would have included their steam generators. Also, I have yet to see a photo where the rooftop vents are missing, either. Most of the EFP-15 were in dual service most of their lives and thus there isn't a real answer as to when they "pulled" from passenger service. I only found evidence that 4 A-B-A sets were assigned to full time passenger service in 1953 and remained so until about 1956, as best I can piece together. Hope this helps. Jack Consoli ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:41:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain HO Scale FP7's and N Scale F3's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <29D93643-21CC-11D9-B4B6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... InterMountain made formal part number announcements at the recent iHobby Expo on some locomotives that we knew were coming. HO scale EMD FP7A Phase II locomotives have been announced and PRR Tuscan Five-Stripe units are in the lineup. On-board sound option. Four road numbers available. Suggested retail price $199.95 with sound; $129.95 without. N scale EMD F3A and F3B Phase II locomotives have been announced and PRR units are in the lineup. Four road numbers available. Due this winter. Suggested retail price $89.95 for A units; $84.95 for B units. NOTE: The F3 pilots will be correct (EMD "enclosed coupler pilot"... a.k.a. "passenger pilot"), but the number boards will not. The PRR was the sole road that purchased the small, streamline number boards. Every other road opted for the larger, angled boards. Due to the high manufacturing costs of an additional mold, InterMountain will not be creating correct shells for the PRR. An article will be forthcoming in "N Scale Railroading" on converting the IM F3's into correct Pennsy F3's. Other than the number boards, these models should be pretty accurate from the factory. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Cove signal bridge Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:20:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The museum will be getting everything, including the lamps=20 and targets. -John "E. Mike" wrote: Do you feel that NS targeted this signal for replacement=20 because it had become a popular railfan hotspot? Shame they shouldn't have just transfered the old hardware=20 onto the new gantry. Will the old bridge keep the signals=20 that currently adorn it when donated? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 08:43:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline 12-1's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6F86F588-21CC-11D9-B4B6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... Branchline was supposed to ship the HO scale Pennsy 10-1-2's last week, but they did not. However, the HO scale Pennsy 12-1's -- not expected until December -- will start shipping TODAY! This will be the "classic" scheme only.... the "Fleet of Modernism" scheme will follow. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:35:35 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] OT: Stewart Hobbies Closes??? From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:38:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:38:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:38:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:38:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] OT: Stewart Hobbies Closes??? Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:53:37 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The latest posting indicates it was purchased by Bowser from someone who contacted Stewart by phone. I need to think about whether this is good or not and what the long term ramifications are for us PRR modelers. My initial thinking is at least it was bought by someone who is bringing PRR products to the marketplace. -------------- Original message from Randy Williamson : -------------- > There has been talk on several lists that Stewart Hobbies has closed. Some > say they have read on the web site that it is closed. I have went to their > web site and there is no mention of it. The web site was updated as of the > 15th of this month. Has anyone been able to find out if this is true or not? > > Randy > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:57:06 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 19, 2004, at 9:38 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the > forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is > being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be > announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's > their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or > is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell Norm, The latest, from Ken McCorry, indicates that Steve Stewart told Ken this morning that the company has been sold to........ BOWSER! Verrrrrrrry interesting.... The web site appeared to have been hacked as well, perhaps by a disgruntled ex employee, but is back (hit refresh). Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:57:06 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 19, 2004, at 9:38 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the > forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is > being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be > announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's > their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or > is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell Norm, The latest, from Ken McCorry, indicates that Steve Stewart told Ken this morning that the company has been sold to........ BOWSER! Verrrrrrrry interesting.... The web site appeared to have been hacked as well, perhaps by a disgruntled ex employee, but is back (hit refresh). Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:02:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] OT: Stewart Hobbies Closes??? From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 10:53 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > The latest posting indicates it was purchased by Bowser from someone > who contacted Stewart by phone. I need to think about whether this is > good or not and what the long term ramifications are for us PRR > modelers. My initial thinking is at least it was bought by someone > who is bringing PRR products to the marketplace. I've been told I can publicly confirm that Stewart Hobbies has been sold to Bowser. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:03:21 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies Sold not closed Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I spoke with them at 11:35 AM EST. October 19th There will be an announcement later today and it will posted on the website. Stewart has been sold it is not closing. Bowser has bought the line and will continue to sell the products as Stewart. At least that was my conversation. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] P70 "Schemes" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:09:51 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton: "NOTE: The dashes in the classes are present in the original PRR document!" PRR internal documentation is noriously inconsistent; however, if you go by freight car painting diagrams, particularly those for CK, the dash is not there, and virtually all of the photo documentation (save the Class X43 and subclass cars built by outside vendors) backs this up. Obviously, it's somewhat less critical for a modeler from a passenger car standpoint as the car class is not prominently stenciled on the side of the car. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:30:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Official Bowser/Stewart Announcement From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <06cd01c4b609$69ff0ca0$1401a8c0@LEESONY> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just "off the wire" from Bowser... On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 02:06 PM, Lee English wrote: > Bowser Mfg. Co., Inc. is pleased to announce the acquisition of > Stewart Hobbies, Inc. We wish to thank Steve Stewart for 20 years of > excellence in model railroad manufacturing. Bowser will continue the > proud tradition that Steve has established. These great models will > continue to be marketed under the name Stewart Hobbies and, as always, > will be available at your local hobby shop and model railroad > retailer. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:15:11 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain HO Scale FP7's and N Scale F3's Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry Britton writes in part from the PRR-TALK LIST... " (Snip)but the number boards will not. The PRR was the sole road that purchased the small, streamline number boards. Every other road opted for the larger, angled boards. Due to the high manufacturing costs of an additional mold, InterMountain will not be creating correct shells for the PRR." This is not entirely correct as other roads did continue to use the "3 and 4 digit streamlined number board" even when EMD enouraged the alternative... Remember there was one EFP-15 rebuilt with an FT (nee_GN electric)nose section after a accident in the late sixites as well. But that is not the focus of my post... The N-Scale Modeler can make the conversion it two ways... First, by removing the 45° number-boards and replace them with scratch built styrene number boards. I am not aware of any N-Scale detail part replacements for these, perhaps Brian Butcher or Doug Nelson can correct me if I am wrong... OR Secondly by ordering an FT shell (As Marty suggested to me in Seattle) and removing the nose and cab section and repainting and decaling the modified shell... Sounds like a lot of work to me, but an option. Personally, I think most modelers with welcome these new PRR units in N Scale even though there may be a little work involved, something we seem to get used to as KEYSTONE MODELERS. The PRRT&HS Modeling Committee will be working on the correct P&L diagrams with IMRwy. Again, Thanks to Marty for considering many Keystone Modelers request to do the F-units... We should also thank Brian Butcher and Doug Neslon for quiet canvasing... Faith moves mountains. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:36:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 03:15 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > The N-Scale Modeler can make the conversion it two ways... First, by=20= > removing the 45=B0 number-boards and replace them with scratch built=20= > styrene number boards. I am not aware of any N-Scale detail part=20 > replacements for these, perhaps Brian Butcher or Doug Nelson can=20 > correct me if I am wrong... OR Secondly by ordering an FT shell (As=20 > Marty suggested to me in Seattle) and removing the nose and cab=20 > section and repainting and decaling the modified shell... Sounds like=20= > a lot of work to me, but an option. The second was my original plan of attack, but I have since backed off.=20= The IM F3 unit will be available with either freight or passenger=20 pilots. We all know our railroad of choice used the passenger pilots --=20= except the helper set. The FT shell has a freight pilot, but Charlie=20 Vlk tells me it is NOT the same freight pilot later applied to the F3.=20= So the nose-swap scenario requires a pilot change in all cases as well. No, there currently are no detail replacement boards for these.=20 However, I have had a very busy day today and it looks like I have=20 resolved that! Hopefully "all the pieces will come together" (pun=20 intended) by the time the F3 actually ships. Lift rings for the front are available, as are train phone stanchions.=20= I don't know of lift rings for the back. > > Personally, I think most modelers with welcome these new PRR units in=20= > N Scale even though there may be a little work involved, something we=20= > seem to get used to as KEYSTONE MODELERS. And plenty of modelers will be more than willing to run them "as is" as=20= they should otherwise be correct, offered in multiple road numbers, etc. > The PRRT&HS Modeling Committee will be working on the correct P&L=20 > diagrams with IMRwy. And I applaud InterMountain for listening! > > Again, Thanks to Marty for considering many Keystone Modelers request=20= > to do the F-units... We should also thank Brian Butcher and Doug=20 > Neslon for quiet canvasing... Faith moves mountains. F7's and FP7's anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:01:28 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain N Scale F3's Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry writes in part... "The second was my original plan of attack, but I have since backed off. The IM F3 unit will be available with either freight or passenger pilots. We all know our railroad of choice used the passenger pilots -- except the helper set. The FT shell has a freight pilot, but Charlie Vlk tells me it is NOT the same freight pilot later applied to the F3. So the nose-swap scenario requires a pilot change in all cases as well." Althought the R&R of scratch built 4-digit numbers boards seems easier to me the alternate solution is to buy the undec F-3 with the enclosed coupler pilot (aka "freight pilot")and remove the pilot at the same time you remove the cab section and make the conversion... again an alternative... Seems to me there would be a market for someone to look into and produce the replacement part (as well as other parts ) in Resin... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:41:41 GMT Subject: [PRR] NH EP-5 3rd Rail Shoes ? From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:41:41 GMT Subject: [PRR-FAX] NH EP-5 3rd Rail Shoes ? I know the EP-5 had 3rd rail shoes so it could run on the NYC undersided 3rd rail to GCT. But could it run on PRR/LIRR type of third rail? Also, I have heard PRR tested the EP-5, but it tended to overhead for the EP was built for only a 75 mile high speed run, vs. the longer PRR runs. True? Thanks, Dominic Mazoch ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:09:30 -0500 From: dwp Subject: [PRR] Re: [NHRR] EP-5 Q's. Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Just got my K-Line EP-5, and I have two questions: > > 1. Could the 3rd rail shoes run on the PRR/LIRR system? as noted, the one was underrunning, the other overrruning. But. The contact planes were in nearly the same place, relative the runnig rails. I have seen it in print, by a participant, that inital testing of FL9 on LIRR was done 'using the backs of the shoes'. > > 2. Did PRR test one? Heard the unit overheated becauce the PRR had longer runs. Possible. I've seen no data. If so, simply reducing load would do. If there were need for it. with lotsa GG1 around.... best dwp True? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mail.comcast.net" Subject: [PRR] J-1 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:37:05 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would anyone know where I may obtain a N scale Key Imports Pennsylvania = J-1? I would like to include same in a project I am building. Plase = contact me off list at dahickey@comcast.net, thank you Daniel L Hickey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] E8A #5701 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:57:58 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Approximately how long after it was built did E8A 5701=20 have its second headlight before it was removed. I=20 recently obtained a picture of it on display with a GG1 at=20 Harrisburg. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <707D189F-2291-11D9-8324-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Vol. 4: Louisville to=20 Washington, D.C." by David Sweetland. "This, the most recent volume in the color pictorial series, showcases=20= the P Company's operations between Louisville and Washington D.C. from=20= the 1950's up to the Penn Central merger. You'll see the last vestiges=20= of the PRR's proud steam fleet, a plethora of first and second=20 generation diesel models, GG-1 and E44 electrics, and more. You even=20 get a bonus chapter that features a complete look at Alco and Baldwin=20 road switchers used by the PRR. 128 pages, 290 color photos, 8=BD"x 11",=20= hardcover. SRP $59.95." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:13:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <707D189F-2291-11D9-8324-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Vol. 4: Louisville to=20 Washington, D.C." by David Sweetland. "This, the most recent volume in the color pictorial series, showcases=20= the P Company's operations between Louisville and Washington D.C. from=20= the 1950's up to the Penn Central merger. You'll see the last vestiges=20= of the PRR's proud steam fleet, a plethora of first and second=20 generation diesel models, GG-1 and E44 electrics, and more. You even=20 get a bonus chapter that features a complete look at Alco and Baldwin=20 road switchers used by the PRR. 128 pages, 290 color photos, 8=BD"x 11",=20= hardcover. SRP $59.95." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Website Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:48:34 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to great effort by Steve Agostini the Society's website is back in operation. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: charliehoran@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 17:18:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: PRRT&HS Website That is great news. Thanks and congrats to Steve!!! ceh ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:48:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Website Thanks to great effort by Steve Agostini the Society's website is back in operation. Al Buchan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:34:27 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Earlier this week I ahd asked about the length oftime the=20 first E7A retained its second headlight. A picture of that=20 engine along with a wreck that occured south of Columbia,=20 PA on the C&PD are now posted on my website. www.mountvernonshops.com/PRRPix1.html Regards and Enjoy! John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:32:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] (ADV) Train Show MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, It is Fall and once again the Beaver County Model Railroad Club (western Pa.) will be holding their October Train Show and Sale. This year it is being held Sunday Oct 24 from 10am-3PM located at the Center Stage on Old Broadhead Road in Monaca, Pa,, near the Beaver Valley Mall and Kings Restaurant. Signs usually posted to guide you in. Model Trains of all scales available from local/distant dealers. Some prototype odds and ends showing up once and a while too. No Steeler game so stop on in.......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:41:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940337e1fa0d3971f3b76145257a43b3868350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.51 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first E-7's. 5701 was an E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD in Tuscan Red. In Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers there is a photo on pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone applied to a plate covering the second headlight. Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:56:00 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Steve, Sorry about that, i'm only using what little I have of=20 captions. It'll be changed by tonight. This weekend or sometime next week some mystery pictures=20 will be posted that I can't identify a location. That's=20 when the fun starts. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "STEPHEN HOXIE" wrote: Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first=20 E-7's. 5701 was an E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD=20 in Tuscan Red. In Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers=20 there is a photo on pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone=20 applied to a plate covering the second headlight. Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Its Friday so some models... Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:20:45 -0500 To: PRR-Talk LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Happy Friday Gang, Bill suggested a Friday model post a few weeks ago, and in the past several weeks I finished up a stack of projects so here goes (all are in HO). First, for Virtual Modelers (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualmodelers/), there was the G30. This was a Tichy kit that I modified to have a correct lever style hand brake, national B1 trucks, and a corrugated brake step. I painted it with my polyscale FCC mix and lettered it with the Greg Komar dry transfer set for the G30. Since it was built in 1943 and I model 1944 I gave it a NEW weight stencil (as opposed to a reweigh), a light weathering, a fresh repack stencil, some chalk marks, a laser cut wood floor and some paint to represent the unpainted inside of the boards. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/G30done.JPG For PRRPro (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) I've been VERY busy . The latest project to finish up was the G22 gondola. For that I built two Westerfield cars, a G22 and a G22B with an HB1A container load. The G22 was equipped with Bowser's crown trucks, painted lettered and HEAVILY weathered to represent a car that has been well used. I added fresh reweigh and repack stencils and chalk marks. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/G22-4.JPG The G22B represents a car rebuilt for container service and 100 ton capacity, rather than the 70 ton G22. Since no 100 ton trucks are available, I used the Red Caboose 50 ton truck as a "stand in", since they have nearly the same side frame. The car and containers were painted, lettered and weathered. The containers show spillage of dry cement. The gon has new reweigh and repack stencils as well as chalk marks. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/G22B-3.JPG The previous PRRPro project was the X29 boxcar. I did several RC cars for that, but also wanted to do a couple of X28As and a resin X29. All three kits were from Sunshine, and represent some of the older kits (and are out of production). As such, building these cars was a bit more of a challenge that some of the more recent Sunshine kits. I used the RC trucks on all three cars. Since I was painting and lettering these cars, I used a new technique that I first tried on one of the RC X29s called shadowing, or pre-shadowing. I used a black Sharpie Brand fine point marker to highlight all of the panels before painting with FCC. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28CRECo.jpg Once painted with a couple of light coats of FCC, the black still shows. I then used Greg Martin's +orange, +red approach. To do this you line a Post-it brand note up with the seam and spray a slightly more red color onto it, allowing overspray to hit the car. Once that is dry you do it on the opposite side of the seam with a slightly more orange color. What results is an FCC to orange|seam|red to FCC to orange|seam|red to FCC to orange pattern. X28A #120713 was moderately weathered with new reweigh and repack data and chalk marks. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28A120713L.JPG X28A #122320 was weathered to look like a 2-3 year old repainted car, so the reweigh data was applied before weathering and a new repack was applied after. No chalk marks on this car. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X28A122320L.JPG X29 #502795 represents a lightly to moderately weathered car with a very new reweigh and repack and some chalk marks. Note that visible patch panels on the Sunshine kit. These were molded on the sides. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/Models/X29R.JPG Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:42:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Its Friday so some models... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce, I like the idea of a Friday Photo day. I tried to get one going about 5 years ago. Everyone of your models you posted appear to be contest worthy!!! I have been lollygagging lately on model building due to a long term project I started last year. It will be included in the upcoming TKM but here is another sneak peek. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ATrainView2.JPG I have a long way to go on it but I am young, it will get finished some day........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:09:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Question concerning US&S CTC machines... Track schematic with occupancy lights was typically across the top. Below that were two rows of control switches. The top row was typically switch (turnout) controls. The bottom row was typically signal controls. Did it ever occur on the prototype that the number of turnout controls exceeded the required number of signal controls such that "some" of the turnout controls might have been on the lower row? The plates clearly indicate "switch" vs. "signal". Also, what is the role of the "Traffic" control? Here's an example... ROY, remoted from STATE... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/state_tour/ROY-Machine-close.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart info Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:49:13 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My brother taught high school with Ssteve Stewart for many years and gave me this additional information. Steve had a son who had some very serious heart problems a few years ago. He may not be with us at this point as I remember. His wife died two years ago and one of his key employees left about a year ago leaving him with doing three jobs. He had several offers most of which were to take it off his hands at distressed prices. All the employees were offered jobs with Bowser although it is doubtful many will take them as they are three hours away from Chalfont. Bowser treated him fairly and the jobs stay in the US. N. Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:49:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, I would say that the machine with the modle board was made to fit what was needed. The old CTC machine in ALTO at one time only had WORKS & ROSE on it as you use to be able to see around the corner of it. When ANTIS was added,another machine big enough to accomadate ANTIS along with ROSE & WORKS was acquired and hence not being able to see around its corned anymore. But one can never say never, as somewhere there is something to prove one wrong. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:37:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Jerry, I agree with Pat's "never say never" but US&S CTC machines were custom built to the railroad's specs. PRR would provide interlocking charts,track charts,signal charts, and most important: the size of the tower, to Union Switch & Signal. I'm not really sure what the "traffic levers" are for but I think it had something to do with bi-directional tracks,locking the signals clear in one direction. I was looking at my ALTO and SLOPE 1952 interlocking charts and they had traffic levers for track 3 to bring passenger trains in and out of the station. At that time track 3 was bi-directional. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:01:28 +0000 >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] US&S CTC Machine Question >Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:37:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:00:08 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [68.160.175.241] at Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:00:17 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think, from some Rule 261 discussions we had on some other signal lists a couple of years ago, that to reverse trffic, it is necessary for the section of track, made of x number of blocks, to be unoccupied. Opposing signals are set at Stop, not S&P, as the block direction has to be absolute. I am not sure a Restricting could even be displayed into a Rule 261 track against the established current of traffic. For a definite answer with references, the Railway-Signaling list would be a good place to ask. In the days of PRR pre-CTC, individually manned towers, the tower at each end of a length of Rule 261 track had a traffic lever. Neglecting for this discussion the sequence for setting them, both had to be set for the desired direction of traffic. As an additional safety, there were often signals at the _leaving_ point of the interlockings, protecting entrance to the Rule 261 track. Normally a track beyond an interlocking was only protected by the appropriate home signal for that interlocking. Steve Bartlett E. Mike wrote: Traffic levers are for use in Rule 261 bi-directional territory for setting the flow of traffic of a piece of track. This would set opposing block signals to STOP and PROCEED and prevent conflicting routes from being set into that track on anything better than a RESTRICTING. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] P70gs Coaches - Window Arrangements & Assignments Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:38:22 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR Pro group's current project is P70 coaches and variants. The P70gs appeared with both wide and narrow windows and I had asked if there was any rhyme or reason as to which of the fleet had the wide vs. the narrow windows. Doc Freed posted the following, and I am reposting it here as it is valuable info and good to get into the PRR-talk archives for posterity. Thanks, Doc! On Oct 23, 2004, at 1:54 AM, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > P70gsR- Scheme 4 #4194-4243 Seats 68-Rotate-recline ACS > FOM-PRR 1908-13 as P70. 2DP5,2EP5,2EP6,2EP6A EM 1939 "Trail Blazer" > Reblt. 1939-Blt. w/ Picture windows & full skirts, removed late 1940's. > > P70gsR- Scheme 4 #4310-4359 Seats 68-Rotate-recline ACS FOM-PRR > 1909-16 as P70 2DP5,2EP5,2EP6,2EP6A EM 1939 "Trail Blazer" > Reblt. 1939-Blt. w/ Narrow square windows & full skirts, removed late > 1940's. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:34:15 +0000 From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PA numbers .... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:22:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello ,=20 I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website with pic's of PRR = PA's . I'm repainting a set ( ABA ) of Willaims PA's and although I have = the Microscale diagrams I wanted to check on the road numbers assigned . = Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PA numbers .... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:22:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello ,=20 I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website with pic's of PRR = PA's . I'm repainting a set ( ABA ) of Willaims PA's and although I have = the Microscale diagrams I wanted to check on the road numbers assigned . = Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:29:49 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John, Thanks for sharing the photos with the rest of us. Ken John Frantz wrote: > Steve, > > Sorry about that, i'm only using what little I have of captions. It'll > be changed by tonight. > > This weekend or sometime next week some mystery pictures will be > posted that I can't identify a location. That's when the fun starts. > > Regards, > John > > Designer, Modeler, Consultant > Mount Vernon Shops > York, PA > www.mountvernonshops.com > Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. > > > "STEPHEN HOXIE" wrote: > Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first E-7's. 5701 > was an > E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD in Tuscan > Red. In > Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers there is a > photo on > pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone applied to a plate > covering the second headlight. > > Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PA Antenna System Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:32:52 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can a listmember tell me what the distance between the two rows of = antenna supports is as measured from the carbody centerline for a PA = unit? I just pulled out a P2K PA to work on and judging from pictures = of actual units and Overland models, the steam generator exhaust stack on the P2K model appears to interfere with = where the last mast should be on the fireman's side of the unit. Any = info. that someone can provide who has gone through installing the = antennas on a P2K model would be appreciated. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:38:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart info X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm and all concerned, Steve asked me to pass this along regarding the Stewart Sale. Health had nothing to do with the sale. Steve's son is doing fine. The sale was purely a business decision . He spent 20 years building trains for us after spending 30 years teaching. Thats enough time working for anybody. ------------------Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:09:35 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart info X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Amen, Ken. I say thanks to Steve, and have fun in retirement. If his abilities at model railroad building rival his quality and attention to detail shown in his product line through the years, that would be one layout I'd pay to see! Let us push the new owners to make every effort to build and market products that live up to Steve's highest standards. owen thorne KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: >Norm and all concerned, Steve asked me to pass this along regarding the >Stewart Sale. Health had nothing to do with the sale. Steve's son is doing fine. >The sale was purely a business decision . He spent 20 years building trains for >us after spending 30 years teaching. Thats enough time working for anybody. >------------------Ken McCorry > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms/Appleton/Fairhill Elkton, Cecil County Maryland 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 02:25:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Antenna System X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/23/2004 3:37:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: Can a listmember tell me what the distance between the two rows of antenna supports is as measured from the carbody centerline for a PA unit? I just pulled out a P2K PA to work on and judging from pictures of actual units and Overland models, the steam generator exhaust stack on the P2K model appears to interfere with where the last mast should be on the fireman's side of the unit. This should tell you something Frank, the Overland units have the spacing too close together ... the give away is that fact that you need an exhaust deflector attached to the steam generator exhaust stack and to the conduit above. Can you get a copy of my article in Mainline Modeler and use the drawings I did for the article as the basis for your model. Any info. that someone can provide who has gone through installing the antennas on a P2K model would be appreciated. Frank Brua Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:02:29 -0400 From: Martin Harriss Subject: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Subject: US&S CTC Machine Question > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:09:09 -0400 > > Question concerning US&S CTC machines... > > Track schematic with occupancy lights was typically across the top. > Below that were two rows of control switches. The top row was typically > switch (turnout) controls. The bottom row was typically signal controls. > > Did it ever occur on the prototype that the number of turnout controls > exceeded the required number of signal controls such that "some" of the > turnout controls might have been on the lower row? The plates clearly > indicate "switch" vs. "signal". Actually, I think the reverse was the more frequent case - more signals than switches than signals. The solution was an additional vertical column with only one lever present. Part of the reason for this was how the CTC system worked - each switch/signal lever pair corresponded to one field location. So if you needed an extra signal, say, you would have to provide an addition field unit, but without using the switch circuitry. Pressing the code button underneath the signal lever would start the transmittion of the code signal to the field location. Note that the PRR had a number of US&S panels that looked like CTC (and presumably used the same lever components) but were actually direct wired relay interlockings (no code button.) PENN and THORN come to mind. Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: US&S CTC Machine Question Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 05:18:41 +0000 From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 07:32:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Disposition-Notification-To: "Sam Vastano" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2004 11:31:00.0535 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A731470:01C4BA86] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:38:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041025123242.54757.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2004 12:37:02.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[54118320:01C4BA8F] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank Bill, I didn't think they had them but I was not positive... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Sam... AS they say the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. But the answer to yours is simply no. The Pennsy never bought the SD24. Don't believe everything that IHC (or other manufacturers) say. ===== Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:38:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20041025123242.54757.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2004 12:37:02.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[54118320:01C4BA8F] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thank Bill, I didn't think they had them but I was not positive... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Sam... AS they say the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. But the answer to yours is simply no. The Pennsy never bought the SD24. Don't believe everything that IHC (or other manufacturers) say. ===== Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:59:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] November 12-14 Multi-Layout Tour Slated From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <74493860-2696-11D9-BA2E-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR), an co-operative of model railroad layout owners in the southcentral Pennsylvania area, are pleased to announce their "First Annual SVMR Layout Tour" over the weekend of November 12-14. This first tour will feature 8 layouts over three days, most of them "operating" layouts. The public is invited to attend and children are welcome, provided that parents maintain a watchful eye over them. After all, November is Model Railroading Month! So if you are in the York-Lancaster-Harrisburg area, please look us up and consider attending one or more of the layouts on the tour. You can visit our web site where you can learn more about which layouts are open, maps to them, and more details about the layouts themselves. The site address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/ . Thank you... and we hope to meet some of you! (List relevance: Layouts on tour include PRR, Reading, and Conrail roads modeled; and many feature car cards, JMRI, Digitrax, and Soundtraxx systems.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? From: Paul_S_Kurutz@dom.com Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:03:46 -0400 From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:41:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.24.0 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Got this e-mail from my website.. Can anyone help Mirza out? I'm guessing they'd be quartered but don't really know... Please make sure you include mirza in any replies... Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Mirza Kolakovic [mailto:mirzaking@peoplepc.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:22 PM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Hi Rob, I need your help with facts on S2 #6200 locomotive. I am trying to find out if drive wheels on both sides were in faze or shifted quarter of a turn? I have Lionel locomotive 2020 that I took apart for cleaning. Before I put it together I want to know how originally wheels were placed. My friend is telling me that true steamers (with cylinders) had quarter of a turn difference between wheels on each side but this being a turbine locomotive this was not the case. In other words, when lefts side wheels are at TDC - right side wheels are also at TDC. Is this right? I tried searching for pictures of both sides taken at the same time on the same S2 but no success. Could you help me with this. Its has been bothering me a lot for some reason. Thanks. Mirza Kolakovic Detroit, MI USA ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:41:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.24.0 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XIIII, Probability=14%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 1.5, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Got this e-mail from my website.. Can anyone help Mirza out? I'm guessing they'd be quartered but don't really know... Please make sure you include mirza in any replies... Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Mirza Kolakovic [mailto:mirzaking@peoplepc.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:22 PM To: robs@railfan.net Subject: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Hi Rob, I need your help with facts on S2 #6200 locomotive. I am trying to find out if drive wheels on both sides were in faze or shifted quarter of a turn? I have Lionel locomotive 2020 that I took apart for cleaning. Before I put it together I want to know how originally wheels were placed. My friend is telling me that true steamers (with cylinders) had quarter of a turn difference between wheels on each side but this being a turbine locomotive this was not the case. In other words, when lefts side wheels are at TDC - right side wheels are also at TDC. Is this right? I tried searching for pictures of both sides taken at the same time on the same S2 but no success. Could you help me with this. Its has been bothering me a lot for some reason. Thanks. Mirza Kolakovic Detroit, MI USA ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kaczar, Keneth" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Antenna System Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:45:27 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:24:05 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F83AF@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted thread-index: AcS4PTnIXJ9d6liTQjaUpWsG1jDJxAChM8Ew From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "STEPHEN HOXIE" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 5770 and 5771 had MARS headlights. 5700-5701 had wig wag (i.e. sideways only) headlights. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of STEPHEN HOXIE Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:41 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Pictures Posted Hi John--5701 was not an E-7. 5900-5901 were the first E-7's. 5701 was an E-8 from the last order, the order that arrived from EMD in Tuscan Red. In Pennsylvania Railroad diesel Pictorial Vol. 7 by Withers there is a photo on pg. 520 of 5701 captioned 1965 which shows a keystone applied to a plate covering the second headlight. Can you get someone to correct the caption on the website? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:46:47 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 25, 2004, at 2:22 PM, pennsynut@isp.com wrote: > So, it appears to me that Mirza's last question remains unanswered.=A0=20= > Were the drivers on one side TDC and the other side ??????=A0 I can=20 > vision both sides being the same - TDC - and also vision one side=20 > being TDC and the other BDC. > > Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 Although I'm sure Mirza knew what I meant, I'll clarify my statement,=20 for those who didn't make the logical leap . Yes, it appears the=20= drivers were aligned TDC/TDC or BDC/BDC if she stopped rods down. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:51:26 +0000 From: Michael E Allen Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:44:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:44:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-7 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 3:5:918976920 X-MAIL-INFO:25332a33efc3bbbe3fdaafdfaf2a175e979f9eaf979a2a9a2aab2a9a1a97d76a9adb8b4f5b6acbfa678bc317574fae1e0b0e6a8ea37f9ed76e57e35f7aeb5a7b670a574e13be77be13f79fafdfd3af1a9ad32b433b033b031f033b3e434abb3bfbbe7e33bb3fba6abeef2a3a8ea3c7a38e279e0fd7570f7a7ff31bfeebb37f67b30a2b7f6f676f6fc70b1ec3ce4b3e8f43a73b432e3fa7ba3bba Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:25:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <35824D3A25D22944B9B21E49AF10FF4C06C5A0@server1.mstprod.local> Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 096DB2D1-865F46D2-A30C27B6-C1D668B4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Howdy Sam: The Pennsy had two SD7 (ERS15ax), 25 SD9(ERS15a) and then no more SD's until the SD35s of 1965. The Pennsy did not have any EMD model FT, F2, EA, E2, E3, BL1/2, E6, F9, FP9, E9,GP18, GP20 and the SD24 and the DD40 (never built in 1:1 scale) just incase you run across some old Athearn units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 01:28:05 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PA Antenna System Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com >In a message dated 10/23/2004 3:37:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, >parkvarieties@provide.net writes: >Can a listmember tell me what the distance between the two rows of >antenna supports is as measured from the carbody centerline for a >PA unit?   ......... > >Can you get a copy of my article in Mainline Modeler and use the >drawings I did for the article as the basis for your model. > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- PA1 articles in Mainline Modeler, December 2000 & January 2001 Don Luke Lower Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 06:26:11 -0400 To: Michael E Allen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 25, 2004, at 10:44 PM, Michael E Allen wrote: > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go > to > RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php? > topic_view=threads&p=2057&t > =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. > Bennet, Eric - Well done. Excellent, gentlemen! And for those that didn't know... Bennett is having an op session this weekend... Harrisburg to Philadelphia to Perryville to Columbia to Enola to Rockville Bridge to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:48:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Disposition-Notification-To: "Sam Vastano" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2004 11:46:00.0682 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D645CA0:01C4BB51] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks Wayne, How about the GP9 that is on the curve? How many of those did the PRR have? When would they have been purchased? Sam V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:26 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Howdy Sam: The Pennsy had two SD7 (ERS15ax), 25 SD9(ERS15a) and then no more SD's until the SD35s of 1965. The Pennsy did not have any EMD model FT, F2, EA, E2, E3, BL1/2, E6, F9, FP9, E9,GP18, GP20 and the SD24 and the DD40 (never built in 1:1 scale) just incase you run across some old Athearn units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:15:30 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F83C2@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] SD 24??? Thread-Index: AcS7UhTQ3misyiayR+e9xzWdtafcdAABYn1Q From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , "Wayne S. Betty" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com PRR had 314 GP-9s total. All maintained under one roof, at Enola Diesel Shop. They were purchased in several groups, the last being delivered in the fall of 1960. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:48 AM To: 'Wayne S. Betty'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Thanks Wayne, How about the GP9 that is on the curve? How many of those did the PRR have? When would they have been purchased? Sam V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:26 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] SD 24??? Howdy Sam: The Pennsy had two SD7 (ERS15ax), 25 SD9(ERS15a) and then no more SD's until the SD35s of 1965. The Pennsy did not have any EMD model FT, F2, EA, E2, E3, BL1/2, E6, F9, FP9, E9,GP18, GP20 and the SD24 and the DD40 (never built in 1:1 scale) just incase you run across some old Athearn units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Group, This might sound like a dumb question but did the Pennsy use the SD24? If so when did they start using it? Last night I was flipping through the Model Railroader and saw that IHC had these offered and they had a shopping list of road names to go along with it. It sparked my interest... Sam V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:29:13 +0000 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Tom Hayden wrote: "I have not yet looked at the photo Ben refers to, but if it shows what he says, then I am wrong. But still very puzzled." Again, please see page 26 of the Fall 2004 issue of Classic Trains for a photo of one of No. 6200's two driving axles before you call me a liar. It clearly shows no quartering. Additionally, you're making the incorrect assumption that 6200's turbine is geared to only one driver. It's actually geared to both the second and the third drivers. Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:22:29 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Michael E Allen Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:29:13 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcS7Bp6zd3ctLTPMTPSQon+hihKvOQAWTn7A In-reply-to: <20041025.224441.2036.0.ptrmgtsvc@juno.com> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Michael E Allen Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennet, Eric - Well done. Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:49:27 -0500 To: Tom Hayden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 26, 2004, at 8:22 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > This is stunning news to me. You may recall a similar discussion last > Jan/Feb about side-rod electrics. I think the conclusion was that even > locos without reciprocating power, but still side rods, would require > quartering. The big difference is that the S2 was direct (gear) driven, just like our models , while the electrics were "jack shaft" which converted the rotational energy of the motor to a rod and thence to the wheels. While this might not have had the same dynamic force issues as a steamer, it was still an issue as the back and forth motion of the rods had to be converted to the circular motion of the drivers. Hence the electrics needed quartering for balancing dynamic forces. > But it also seems to me that, at best, the operating leverage of the > side rods against the other three axles by the turbine driven axle is > very small and could easily result in a stall. Because the powered axle is driven in rotation by the gear, the rods transmit whatever the force applied to them is. If they are in the 3:00 position and the loco starts forward, the driven axle applies force to all other axles with a DOWNWARD vector, orthogonal (or normal) to the rods. As the driver rotates, the force vector also rotates until at the 6:00 position it is parallel to the rods. The force vector is basically the same regardless of the position of the driver and rods. There is a small component of gravity (ie the down vector is bigger and the up vector is smaller) due to the weight of the rods, but it was negligible compared to the total. It is an interesting question as to why the S2 would NOT be quartered. What could quartering hurt? Why not have it the same way as every other loco? > > Lastly, as a suggestion to Mirza, regardless of the actual prototype > configuration, he may wish to quarter his Lionel model, UNLESS all > the driving wheels are actually gear driven. It's been a while since I > looked at Lionel mechanisms, but if the model relies on the side rods > for actual propulsion, then he definitely will have the "hang up" > problems I described above, because the model will not have such tight > bearings on the side rods. Not a problem, even if only one axle is gear driven. See above. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:30:45 -0400 Subject: Ballast Cleaner, Cable? Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump Control Ernie, Could you explain reeling the cable in and out to propel the ballast cleaner prior to the use of a diesel? I was one year old at the time and I don't really remember it (but that's probably because we lived on the Pere Marquette). Thanks Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:58:47 -0400 "Ernest L. Clausing" writes: > > Listmembers > > The very first experiment of having diesels propel the Brownhoist ballast cleaner was in 1953-1954 at Olean, NY, while I was track supervisor there. It was an instant success so it became stadanrd procedure. Production increased by one-third to one-half because the cable did not have to be unreeled and reeled back in to propel the cleaner. The only problem was maintaining a uniform speed. Hump control solved that problm. > > Ernie Clausing > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Buchan" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:38 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump Control > > > > > > > > Units with hump control (not RSD5's) were also assigned to the Brownhoist ballast cleaners. > > > > Al Buchan ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I was of the belief that the fluting was a skin shot welded to the frame members. The re-skinning is discussed briefly by Eric on RYPN. the means of joining the panels is apparently proprietary. MEA On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 "Andy Miller" writes: > > > How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train > too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Michael E Allen > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennett, Eric - Well done. > > Michael E. Allen > PTR Management Services > Rocky Hill, NJ Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Michael E Allen Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again I was of the belief that the fluting was a skin shot welded to the frame members. The re-skinning is discussed briefly by Eric on RYPN. the means of joining the panels is apparently proprietary. MEA On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 "Andy Miller" writes: > > > How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train > too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Michael E Allen > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennett, Eric - Well done. > > Michael E. Allen > PTR Management Services > Rocky Hill, NJ Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5,7-9,11-24,26,29,31-39 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 15:7:3812497009 X-MAIL-INFO:48914d6908c5f8f1f19971a15d9c0c688ca1c1551955ece1e9b10d017d007d19350821e5057d210c190c196d190c2d2195810c293d583981a54c613de1355c58bc31b991819d7cdc0595ad5c1c75a9d18c3861985c68fcb1ccb1fc79e57d00657d2d0c65714d5db55db5f1b55d694d41e95d15b1d555e90d0981b1ec198d9d7ced7c9d280511955c11a9dc99d9d8d1dddc61dd9871dc48614848edb931e1a88969594de85d4dc50de8095d09 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was of the belief that the fluting was a skin shot welded to the frame members. The re-skinning is discussed briefly by Eric on RYPN. the means of joining the panels is apparently proprietary. MEA On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:31:46 -0400 "Andy Miller" writes: > > > How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B circus train > too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > Michael E Allen > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:45 PM > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go to RYPN at > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=2057&t =635 > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. Bennett, Eric - Well done. > > Michael E. Allen > PTR Management Services > Rocky Hill, NJ Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:30:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ballast Cleaner, Cable? Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-12,14-17,24-37,39-40 From: Michael E Allen X-ContentStamp: 16:8:3845436373 X-MAIL-INFO:4f50992d248561a431c465d13554c1fdf46db921304554b5a544d53d84cd3d10108464cd646471149d380d59c0e0a0708da0b0b070498d49 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ernie, Could you explain reeling the cable in and out to propel the ballast cleaner prior to the use of a diesel? I was one year old at the time and I don't really remember it (but that's probably because we lived on the Pere Marquette). Thanks Michael E. Allen PTR Management Services Rocky Hill, NJ On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:58:47 -0400 "Ernest L. Clausing" writes: > > Listmembers > > The very first experiment of having diesels propel the Brownhoist ballast cleaner was in 1953-1954 at Olean, NY, while I was track supervisor there. It was an instant success so it became stadanrd procedure. Production increased by one-third to one-half because the cable did not have to be unreeled and reeled back in to propel the cleaner. The only problem was maintaining a uniform speed. Hump control solved that problm. > > Ernie Clausing > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Buchan" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:38 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: RSD4/5s-Hump Control > > > > > > > > Units with hump control (not RSD5's) were also assigned to the Brownhoist ballast cleaners. > > > > Al Buchan ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:59:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Andy, Juniata Terminal Co. has found a way to panel over the=20 fluting. Its still all there underneath the paneling. The=20 same was done with the Warrior Ridge. The nice thing about=20 the way the panel is applied it's the length of the body.=20 Bennet, Eric and crew have added another fine car to the=20 fleet. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Andy Miller" wrote: How does one remove the fluting from a Budd car? I=20 thought that it was structural and immortal. I noticed this on the RBB&B=20 circus train too when it was in Cambridge a few weeks ago. regards, =20 Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:21:38 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:33:14 -0400 Message-Id: <20041026173314.OTHB23597.de-fe02.dejazzd.com@de-fe02> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Any chance of this car being on the Susquehanna Ltd. this Saturday? J. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:42:13 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:46:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Isn't that also the route of the Susquehanna Limited NRHS excursion Sat. 10/30? Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "Michael E Allen" Cc: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again > On Oct 25, 2004, at 10:44 PM, Michael E Allen wrote: > > > I would suggest that anyone on these lists who has not yet done so go > > to > > RYPN at > > http://www.rypn.org/interchange/viewtopic.php? > > topic_view=threads&p=2057&t > > =635 > > and take a look at the Levins' latest creation. > > Bennet, Eric - Well done. > > Excellent, gentlemen! > > And for those that didn't know... Bennett is having an op session this > weekend... Harrisburg to Philadelphia to Perryville to Columbia to > Enola to Rockville Bridge to Harrisburg. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:51:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 26, 2004, at 03:46 PM, William Bigler wrote: > Isn't that also the route of the Susquehanna Limited NRHS excursion > Sat. > 10/30? Well I guess that went right over your head, didn't it!!! Bennett... op session... ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "William Bigler" , "Michael E Allen" , "PRR-talk" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Does It Again Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:21:21 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 26, 2004, at 2:51 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, October 26, 2004, at 03:46 PM, William Bigler wrote: > >> Isn't that also the route of the Susquehanna Limited NRHS excursion >> Sat. >> 10/30? > > Well I guess that went right over your head, didn't it!!! > > Bennett... op session... ;-) 12" to foot scale... ;^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] scale houses Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:29:52 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Were scales houses something the manufacturer supplied with the scale or was there a PRR standard design? Does anyone know of any references in particular Margie yard in Philadelphia? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] scale houses Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:06:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <102620042029.18197.417EB3BF000716DC0000471521602807419D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.26.2 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm, The PRR did have a standard scale house. The standards drawing is on my website. Go to http://prr.railfan.net/standards The direct link to the plan is http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:30 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] scale houses Were scales houses something the manufacturer supplied with the scale or was there a PRR standard design? Does anyone know of any references in particular Margie yard in Philadelphia? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:56:26 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: RE: [PRR] scale houses From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:16:39 GMT Subject: [PRR] Lionel Post-War "S2" Turbines From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] scale houses Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:03:01 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm and Rob, Yes, the PRR ahd a standard, but that doesn't mean it was=20 always used.=20 At Poorhouse Yard in York, used by the PRR's Frederick=20 Branch there is a brick scale house, which i intend to=20 model sometime. Unfortunately at this time I don't have=20 pictures availible. The structure is still in use by the=20 Yorkrail divison of Genesee & Wymoming, Nee-Ma&Pa, Ex-PRR. I know, there are always exceptions to the rule, but its=20 worth stating.=20 Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Rob Schoenberg" wrote: Norm, The PRR did have a standard scale house. The standards=20 drawing is on my website. Go to http://prr.railfan.net/standards The direct link to the plan is http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=3D58460-B Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On=20 Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:30 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] scale houses Were scales houses something the manufacturer supplied=20 with the scale or was there a PRR standard design? Does anyone know of any=20 references in particular Margie yard in Philadelphia? Thank you, Norm=20 Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:09:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone heard anything official on this engine? I would think in the next coupkle weeks it should ship. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] scale houses Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:59:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I believe the building at the far right in this photo of the PRR's Erie lake yards is the scale house: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/lake_1.jpg Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: "Rob Schoenberg" ; Cc: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] scale houses Norm and Rob, Yes, the PRR ahd a standard, but that doesn't mean it was always used. At Poorhouse Yard in York, used by the PRR's Frederick Branch there is a brick scale house, which i intend to model sometime. Unfortunately at this time I don't have pictures availible. The structure is still in use by the Yorkrail divison of Genesee & Wymoming, Nee-Ma&Pa, Ex-PRR. I know, there are always exceptions to the rule, but its worth stating. Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:43:25 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Cc: "PRR-Talk" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:30:26 -0500 To: Tom Hayden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > Can we all agree now that any side rod locomotive requires quartered > drivers? NO!!!!!! We can agree that the S2 and DD1 were quartered, but the while the DD1 required it due to the reciprocating machinery, the same cannot be said for the S2. I am putting the finishing touches on a LONG post that I hope will settle this issue for you. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:45:54 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:53:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <200C33D0-282D-11D9-9A6C-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> Thread-index: AcS8O8sdrDq9EQGbRO23iRdbZB3xNwAAMokg Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce, I have to cast my lot with the quartered folks. Whether the drivers are driven by a reciprocating drive rod on the main driver, or by a worm and gear on the main driver, the other drivers all see a reciprocating force from the side rods. And unless the design allows for the force to be transmitted by a bending moment through the side rods, then they will stall at full forward or full aft unless they are quartered. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:30 AM To: Tom Hayden Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > Can we all agree now that any side rod locomotive requires quartered > drivers? NO!!!!!! We can agree that the S2 and DD1 were quartered, but the while the DD1 required it due to the reciprocating machinery, the same cannot be said for the S2. I am putting the finishing touches on a LONG post that I hope will settle this issue for you. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:57:15 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Yes, geographic distribution accounts for a good part of it, but there = are quite a few of us interested in the more remote areas of the Pennsy. = One example is Jerry Shickler with his excellent website on the P&E, = E&P, & Chatauqua Branches, which contains a wealth of information: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm There are quite a few other such websites - they just take a bit of = digging to unearth. And do bookmark them as soon as you find them - = they somehow defy finding a second time.=20 In addition to a poll about geographic interests, I'd like to see = someone assemble and list websites for the lesser known areas such as = Jerry's. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII (How's that for remote?!!) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc.=20 To: 'PRR@yahoogroups.com'=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Charles; Over the years I have also noted that there are many areas of the = former PRR that have had virtually no research done on them, and for which there = has apparently also been very little interest. I noted with interest that = the areas of the PRR for which the most knowledge is exhibited tend to be = those areas that had the highest population densities and/or most closely = related to the big mainlines (esp. Middle Division main). Even folks = interested in the Fort Wayne, Panhandle, and other large mainline operations bemoan = a lack of interest and knowledge in those areas. Coming from Pittsburgh, I = have continually been amazed at the lack of photographic or other = information on large branches around there like the Allegheny Valley or Monongahela = Branch, while every other person seems to have taken photos of Pennsylvania = Station and the yard at 28th Street. In years of paging through the CT1000, = and all of the interesting branches, sidings, and industries it contains, = there has not been one word uttered on any of the lists, in books, or magazines, = on over 90% of the entries (Branch, siding, or industry) contained = therein. Many years ago, I made up my mind that if I were to get smart on = certain aspects of the area in which I am interested, its operations, and its history, that I would likely have to do it on my own. The fact that = twenty years of research lead me to two other individuals interested in this = same area has been a big surprise. But folks interested in many branches = of the PRR have had to go it alone. It is not that someone is hiding all the information. It is generally that it does not exist in documented = form. For instance, I and my friends would welcome even ONE train consist = sheet, switch list, or "left-right" report from ANY of that Branch, for just = about any time. We probably will never see one. =20 You have to remember that motive power, ops, and equipment are = generally commonalities that applied most everywhere, while area-specific = information is still very much an individual interest. And it is the lack of one = person being interested enough to do the research that leads to a lack of information. One of my friends said it best. One day we were talking about one of = my interest areas and he said, "You know more about (a small branch near Pittsburgh) than any person alive." I find that sad, but probably = true. And, realistically, if I don't document what I know, that "history" or knowledge base will probably disappear with me. Elden Gatwood -----Original Message----- From: Charles Woolever [mailto:yahoo@existingstations.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:31 AM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members A recent question posted by me got me reflecting on the geographical knowledge of this group. It appears to me (and none of this should be taken in a negative way at all!) that the general combined geographical knowledge of this group is aimed at the PRR through Pennsylvania, Lines West, with maybe the electrified zone from NY to Washington. Questions posed by members about locations outside the above areas (say north of Olean) and other branches in other states may generate one or two responses and many times no response at all. Motive power, passenger ops, PRR trivia, books and documents, and freight car questions are almost always answered. Is it a lack of interest (Buffalo, Rochester, and Chautauqua Lines in NY State, to name a few) or a lack of information that fuels the lack of answers to these questions? Some questions posed here will result in a flurry of answers often with back and forths in the smallest details (F-units for example). Yet, if someone posts about "East Sticks Siding" it would appear that people don't even care about knowing an answer. Maybe a poll by the moderator about what geographical area your knowledge is in (not where you interest is) would be good start. Just curious, Charles Woolever ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:02:59 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well, yes & no, with respect to our interest being depending on our home = during our formative years - during my formative years I lived a block = from a branch line of the enemy (NYC). In fact, I never lived anywhere = near the Pennsy. Fortunately, I saw the light! Bill Bigler =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Maybe a poll by the moderator about what geographical area your > knowledge is in (not where you interest is) would be good start. Charles, your question, though no doubt a serious one, is based on an=20 implicit notion that I think is probably flawed. Most "PRR" people = have an=20 interest, either general or specific, that is only "geographic" in = nature by virtue=20 of some sort of coincidence. To the extent that anyone is interested in = the=20 geographical aspects of the railroad, even that is normally the simple=20 "by-product" of their home during their formative years. People tend to = relate to what=20 they know about and wish to know much more about as they grow older. Of course, many have a focused interest in equipment or traffic flow, or = whatever, all of which were affected by geographical considerations but, = here=20 again the "geography" is likely, only a "footnote" of their true = interest. Assuming you accept my thesis, as above, the concentrated population = centers=20 (typically found nearby "main lines"), is most likely to have fostered=20 interest in RRing in a far larger number of people than the outlining = areas, simply=20 due to the population numbers in such areas. In otherwords, far more = people=20 are likely to have developed some "in-depth" interest/knowledge of the = major=20 areas of RR activity, than in the "branchline" areas. And, over the = years, FAR=20 more has been published about "mainline" RR activity than (generally) = any of=20 the outlying areas. The bottom line is simply that "not very many people have a lot of = knowledge=20 about MOST branch lines". Many of those that do, might NOT be = registered with=20 our group. The source of information, such as you address is not = plentiful,=20 as a rule. Our group has no monopoly or specific concentrated knowledge = of=20 geographical areas of interest, except as we've encountered as a direct = result=20 of our own evolved interest and that, generally, a direct function of = our=20 "roots" as children. Most commercial publications, over the years, = tended to=20 concentrate articles on subjects (and geography) of greatest interest to = their=20 subscribers. Outlying areas didn't have a great number of fans with a = specific=20 interest in a given area. Today, there is a scarcity of information = about them,=20 in general. I believe, your "point" is somewhat underscored by the popularity of the = book=20 SET UP RUNNING. It focuses on a general geographic area radiating out = from=20 Williamsport,Pa. It is a GREAT book. If you don't have it, I HIGHLY=20 recommend it to you. I'm certain others will weigh in and "second" my = recommendation. ceh=20 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:09:23 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Having run a gas compression plant that had over fifty corliss steam engines pumping CO2 gas I disagree. The quartering of the drivers has nothing to do with the stalling. The stalling is a result of piston travel and lock up not the drivers. because the Corliss engines were single cylinder they would almost always stop where the sides of the cylinder were in balance and wouldn't start when the steam was turned back on. the outer edge of the fly wheel had two inch square hole in it about every foot so a pry bar could be inserted and manually move the flywheel and piston to where the steam could start working. The S2 could be either way. In my unknoweldgable opinion since all other engines were quartered it would be the tendency of shop people to make it the same as the others. Frankly while somewhat interesting the whole discussion is one of those anomolies of minutia that unless somebody elses eyes are in their head different from mine you couldn't see both sides of an engine a -------------- Original message from "Andy Miller" : -------------- > Bruce, > I have to cast my lot with the quartered folks. Whether the drivers are > driven by a reciprocating drive rod on the main driver, or by a worm and > gear on the main driver, the other drivers all see a reciprocating force > from the side rods. And unless the design allows for the force to be > transmitted by a bending moment through the side rods, then they will stall > at full forward or full aft unless they are quartered. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:30 AM > To: Tom Hayden > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive > > On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:43 AM, Tom Hayden wrote: > > Can we all agree now that any side rod locomotive requires quartered > > drivers? > > NO!!!!!! We can agree that the S2 and DD1 were quartered, but the while > the DD1 required it due to the reciprocating machinery, the same cannot be > said for the S2. I am putting the finishing touches on a LONG post that I > hope will settle this issue for you. > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:19:56 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another point is that even branch lines of the PRR were bigger, some = much bigger, than some first class RR's. A case close to my own heart = is the Buffalo Line. Bill Bigler ----- Original Message -----=20 From: cr6485=20 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members Yes, but even many areas peripheral to the big mainlines like the=20 Middle Division are overlooked. A great example is my work on the=20 Bedford Secondary; even those that were here tended to overlook the=20 local PRR branchlines. It was much easier to watch trains on the=20 mainline rather than search out operations on a branch. =20 This isn't a criticism, it's more a reflection of how a railfanning=20 philosophy has changed over the years! I've been very surprised to see how little photography and research=20 has been done on the Bedford, Cresson, and Black Lick secondaries. (Did I ever mention that if anyone has pictures of the C&I/PRR=20 interchange in Nanty Glo, the PRR's Coal Pit Run branch, or anything=20 in Vintondale, Bedford, Claysburg, and on and on and on... gimme a=20 shout. ;-)) Keith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to everyone, By chance, does anyone know when the PRR E's with special will be going through Perryville, MD on Sat? Thank you! Steve panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:08:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to everyone, By chance, does anyone know when the PRR E's with special will be going through Perryville, MD on Sat? Thank you! Steve panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk LIST From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:15:45 -0500 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Okay Folks, It is clear to me that a number of you are struggling with some of the basic issues involved with balancing and quartering of drivers on some steam and electric locomotives. I hope that the following will help y'all to better understand the forces involved and how "balancing" was (or was not) achieved. First, lets take a driver (w/o counter weight or rods). It starts out "perfectly balanced". If you add a gear and a traction motor, it stays perfectly balanced... like the O1, P5... etc. Now, add a side rod to the driver. This rod has mass. In order to balance the mass of the rod and the pin, we add a counterweight to the opposite side of the driver. It is possible to again achieve "perfect balance". If we look at a set of 4 drivers, the mass of 1/4 of the rod is balanced on each driver, and the set of 4 rolls smoothly with no tendency to stop in any given position and no difficulty in starting it from any position. The position of the rods on one side is irrelevant to the position of the rods on the other. If, like the electrics above, we add a motor to one or two axles, this provides even constant power to ALL wheels. The geared wheels are obvious, but they also translate the force to the connected wheels, REGARDLESS of the position of the wheel. There is NO stall point! For those of you who continue to refuse to believe this, please diagram the force vectors. My better half (the physicist of the family) will be happy to explain further. Thus, for a locomotive like the S2, there is NO REQUIREMENT of quartering (and no disadvantage either). Now, in the case of 2 or 3 cylinder reciprocating steam engine we add the piston rods. The driver that this rod connects to now has to have a bigger counterweight, to balance both the side rod and the piston rod. It is possible to achieve nearly "perfect balance" as long as no power is applied through the piston. HOWEVER, as soon as power is applied, an additional force vector is produced in the direction of the stroke. This is called "dynamic augmentation" and immediately throws the whole balance thing out the window! The force is NOT evenly applied, like with a geared locomotive, but is pulsatile. Most locomotive drivers were NOT perfectly balanced at rest, but rather were balanced for some compromise at a target working speed. As a consequence, unlike your car tires, the locomotive drivers would be out of balance by some degree at any other speed. Examples abound, such as accounts of the horrific pounding of the I1s at anything over 40 mph. Quartering was used for two reasons on reciprocating steam locomotives. First, because perfect balance was nearly impossible to achieve, quartering causes the out of balance condition on alternating sides of the locomotive every 1/4 rotation, rather than having the entire locomotive bounce every half rotation. Second, with a reciprocating steam locomotive, it IS possible to have a stall point. That is the point where the piston rod is perfectly aligned with the axle center and drive pin. Quartering prevents this from happening to both piston rods at once. Note that the stall point ONLY applies to the piston rods and NOT to the side rods. In thinking about the DD1, I'm going to have to revise what I posted earlier today. The jackshaft electric presents a unique problem. The jackshaft on the DD1 and L5 is continuous with the side rod and therefore essentially recreates the situations with the geared side rod locomotive. However, unlike the geared locomotive, such as the S2, the motor is at the end of the rod, which presents an intuitive problem of how the rod acts as a lever to provide continuous power in a circular fashion, but it does because the axles of the flywheel and drivers are fixed in the frame. Thus, theoretically, there should be no need for quartering in a jackshaft electric. IF there is any roughness or binding in the drivers of a model it is due either to misalignment (or misquartering) between the drivers or unequal length side rods. The effect is MAGNIFIED on models because of the overall smaller size with similar tolerances to the prototype. "Ye canna change the laws of physics, Captain" - Montgomery Scott Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] O scale PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings. Are there any O scale PRR people on this list? Im thinking of going to O scale but it seems like theres not to much available in pennsy. Are there any O scale PRR chat lists? thanks-Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] O scale PRR MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings. Are there any O scale PRR people on this list? Im thinking of going to O scale but it seems like theres not to much available in pennsy. Are there any O scale PRR chat lists? thanks-Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:21:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Fwd: BLI News... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6ED2C995-284D-11D9-BACA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... (prices shown are BLI's suggested retail) Begin forwarded message: > PRR K4s will be coming within 2 weeks... > > The PRR K4s will be arriving stateside with and without sound within=20= > two weeks!=A0 There is still time to order your K4.=A0 Contact your = dealer=20 > now so they can reserve yours today! > > 335 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #646 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox = front,=20 > short lettering, HO $299.99 > 336 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #1453 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox=20 > front, short lettering, HO $299.99 > 337 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front,=20 > unlettered, HO $299.99 > 338 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #5451 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox=20 > front, HO $299.99 > 339 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #7279 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox=20 > front, HO $299.99 > 340 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20 > unlettered, HO$299.99 > 341 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #5418 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20= > HO $299.99 > 342 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s #1361 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20= > HO $299.99 > 343 > =A0NO SOUND: PRR K-4s w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front,=20 > unlettered, HO$299.99 > > 321 > =A0PRR K-4s #646 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO $450 > 322 > =A0PRR K-4s #1453 w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, short=20= > lettering, HO $450 > 323 > =A0PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, headlight on smokebox front, unlettered, = HO=20 > $450 > 324 > =A0PRR K-4s #5451 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO = $450 > 325 > =A0PRR K-4s #7279 w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO = $450 > 326 > =A0PRR K-4s w/slatted pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered,=20= > HO=A0$450 > 327 > =A0PRR K-4s #5418 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO $450 > 328 > =A0PRR K-4s #1361 w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, HO $450 > 329 > =A0PRR K-4s w/cast pilot, generator on smokebox front, unlettered, HO=20= > $450 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:12:03 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jim & list, I am (still) looking for information on the Buffalo line from = Williamsport (Allens) through Keating Summit (KS), especially pictures = and most especially (salivate!), movies! Particular interests are = Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. Seems noone with a = camera ever got there. Clarence Weaver never got that far west (north) = and John Profit never got that far east (south). But I still ask. I've = tried Jeff Pontius who did the videos of Clarence Weaver's films (Penn = Valley Pictures), but he doesn't answer, despite several tries. = However, hope springs eternal. Even Bill Coloroso who wrote the superb = book "The Elmira Branch" was amazed at the total lack of information and = photos of Williamsport. Anyone heard from Bill lately? Thanks in advance. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rangerjim94us01=20 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:18 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region I will be most happy to share what information I have available to me on the Northern Region of the Pennsylvania Railroad, including, lines to Buffalo,Rochester, Sodus Point, et. al. by means of mileage tables, schedules and whatever else I can dig up. It will take me a few days to get it assembled for posting here. However, I will need others familiar with this territory to help me fill in the blanks as to customers served, stations still existing, yard facilities, etc. I will do what I can. Thanks to whoever brought up the Pennsy's = Geography. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members -- long Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:47:11 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Some well thought out points here and throughout this very interesting = thread. From my own experience: 1. I had no idea how to go about researching an area where no = information had been published. I started with the public library and = struck out. Also struck out with the historical society. 2. What to do with the information, assuming I found any? 3. Why would I be interested in going to the time and trouble, really, = given the above? Answers: 1. I decided to model that section of the Buffalo Line and needed at = least some basic information to begin a track plan. 2. Through English's Model RR Shop I tracked down Putsee Vannucci, a = retired commercial photographer who had a few dozen RR photographs of = the steam era, most PRR, taken with a large format camera (Speed = Graphic?)with exceptionally fine grain film. I also discovered Sanborn = Fire Insurance Maps and the 1945 edition, as far as I can tell, the last = edition published. 3. I purchased everything Putsee had - around 30 8 X 10 b&w glossies = for $10 ea. The resolution was so good I was able to blow them up on my = wife's business HP photo copier and print super enlargements of key = areas on Kodak glossy paper with amazing detail. =20 4. I shot my mouth off and got "volunteered" by Al Buchan to give a = presentation this May at Camp Hill on The PRR in Williamsport in the = steam era. 5. I am now photographing the glossies to convert them into slides. 6. I purchased a CD of the 1945 edition of the Sanborn maps of = Williamsport for $140. I printed out key areas, junctions, yard = throats, etc. which just happen to match exactly aerial photos taken by = Putsee, and I'm photographing them for my presentation. I even went to = the Historical Society in Williamsport and photographed the color = Sanborn maps (took a few days) since the color slides show detail so = much better. 7. Chuck Blardone has asked me whether I'd be willing to do an article = for the Keystone. Putsee's pictures and the Sanborn maps are both = copyright, so next task on my list is to seek permission. No problem = for an educational presentation to a historical society as long as I = don't hand out copies or post to the Internet, but I will need written = permission for an article. 8. I have learned a ton and haven't had time in over two years to even = begin work on the new expanded Williamsport/Renovo Division model = railroad. I've negotiated real estate rights with management and have a = track concept diagram using the "squares" method ala the late John = Armstrong. And now wife and I are in sleep deprivation trying to get = the Red Sox through the Series. As Yogi so aptly observed (along with = the Yankees), it ain't over 'till it's over! 9. Sure glad I'm retired - how could I ever have done all this with a = day job? Haven't even had time to work on the empire! How did we ever = find time to work? So you see Virginia, sometimes curiosity leads you to just plunge in = with no idea what you're doing, one thing leads to another, and voila'!, = I've got a sizeable tiger by the tail. And this weekend wife(!!!) and I = are riding the Susquehanna Ltd Hbg/Phil/Perryville/NC/Hbg. See you at Camp Hill. Onward, ever onward! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Not even sure who's post I was replying to - I deleted the headers and = previous messages, but someone said: Greetings to Charles and the Group: I'd have to agree, but with a side observation. While you're right, it's = true that the big landmarks and popular operations generate lots of=20 copy, in the long run much of that copy tends to be thin. After awhile,=20 it gets to be a case of finding rehashes of rehashes of rehash. When I=20 was researching Horseshoe Curve for a book, I thought it would be easy=20 to find when it was enlarged from two to four tracks. None of the usual=20 published sources offered even a hint, other than to suggest by default=20 of photographic evidence, that it was sometime between 1892 and 1900. It = took careful scrutiny of the Altoona Mirror and Altoona Tribune to find=20 that the project was accomplished in two steps, from two to three tracks = in 1898 and from three to four in 1899-1900. For a major construction=20 and excavating operation at a significant landmark that was already=20 renowned, this facet of Horseshoe Curve history was virtually unknown. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:50:17 +0200 From: Emil Bagge Subject: [PRR] Re: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com It is a picture i Trains June 1945 page 26 of the PRR S2 driving wheel assemblage. The wheels are quartered. Emil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:29:14 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: O scale PRR X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [141.154.81.44] at Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:29:19 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mark, I don't know of any PRR-specific O scale lists, but probably the largest O list is Yahoo-OTrains at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Otrains/ There are a lot of PRR modelers on that list. BTW, I model the PRR along with a couple of other large eastern roads. Steve Bartlett Mark Lehman wrote: Greetings. Are there any O scale PRR people on this list? Im thinking of going to O scale but it seems like theres not to much available in pennsy. Are there any O scale PRR chat lists? thanks-Mark- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:53:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Jacks Interlocking From: John Sheets From: "Kaczar, Keneth" Subject: [PRR] Re: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:51:43 -0500 From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:14:57 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ~I know that Branchline is producing these cars in Pullman colors and ~markings for pooling service. Does anyone know if the Pennsy ever had = these ~Pullman cars on their system? Ted I=92m not sure what you are driving at with this question =96 the = various cars (within the limitations of mass production) are offered in prototypical names and paint schemes, so if Branchline are offering a 12-1 in PRR = colours you can be sure that the car was either assigned to Pennsy service or = owned by the PRR at some time in its life.=20 You should also be aware that cars assigned to connecting roads would = show up as well =96 for example you would expect to find ACL, SAL or Southern assigned cars between DC and New York. Finding out which exact car names were in use on given routes at any time can be a real challenge, but you = can often extract the car types (such as 12-1 or 10-1-2) from various timetables.=20 For details of specific cars Tom Madden has a detailed database which represents hundreds of hours of work available at = www.pullmanproject.com. This will let you extract the key dates and changes in appearance (such = as the date the car was air-conditioned) for almost any particular car you = care to think of. It does help to have some basic knowledge of Pullman terminology and car types to get the best from the database Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:46:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think you are asking if the Pullman green cars were ever in regular assignment for lengthy periods on the Pennsy. Yes. I'd have to do a little checking to see how prevalent after 1948 divestiture, but yes. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question > PRR Listers: > > I know that Branchline is producing these cars in Pullman colors and > markings for pooling service. Does anyone know if the Pennsy ever had these > Pullman cars on their system? > > Thank you in advance for any information that you can provide me. > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:26:13 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: I will not comment on driver balancing because I have not studied the issue. But I must disagree with you on the S2 quartering issue. My free body diagramming is a little rusty ( ok, a lot ) but what I came up with is that quartering is, for all practical purposes, essential. Assume that we have two driver pairs connected with a side rod, but only on one side (for simplicity). The first driver set we'll call the "powered" set. In the "rods down" position ( Let's call it 0 degrees ) there is indeed complete and smooth force transfer. That's because the force is in the plane normal to the side rod that is at 0 degrees and the amount of force is proportional to the cosine of 0 degrees or 1. However, as the angle begins to change to, say 45 degrees, the force in the plane normal to the side rod has reduced to the cosine of 45 degrees, which is a fraction of 1. Things continue to get worse until the side rod is at the 90 degree position where the cosine of 90 degrees is 0 - meaning there is no force being transferred. Now, let's assume that there was a siderod on the other side of our drivers. If there were no quartering, you would be no better off than having one side rod. With quartering however, as one side began to enter the zero force region of rotation, the other side would be entering it's maximum force region. Works out fine. If you want to think of it another way, if you graph force vs. driver angle, you get a sine (cosine) wave with no quartering. With quartering you get two sine waves displaced from each other by 90 degrees. Force never even gets near zero. At least I've convinced myself for now. Am I right? I wouldn't bet any money, but I think the argument is sound. You have to admit, I used some impressive math terms like cosine. I tried to work cosecant and triple integration in somewhere, but that will have to wait until learn what they mean again. Bill Box #366 Original Message: Okay Folks, It is clear to me that a number of you are struggling with some of the basic issues involved with balancing and quartering of drivers on some steam and electric locomotives. I hope that the following will help y'all to better understand the forces involved and how "balancing" was (or was not) achieved. First, lets take a driver (w/o counter weight or rods). It starts out "perfectly balanced". If you add a gear and a traction motor, it stays perfectly balanced... like the O1, P5... etc. Now, add a side rod to the driver. This rod has mass. In order to balance the mass of the rod and the pin, we add a counterweight to the ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:51:09 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403841a697de59364cb9e70f2c5e0ef301350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.121.225.69 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bill--I think you have it. Interesting thread. The siderods (main rods, too) can only transmit force along their length--a simple push pull force. Discounting the not inconsiderable weight of the rods themselves, in Bruce's vector terminology, there is only a horizontal vector with continuously changing magnitude (sinusoidal) but constant horizontal direction. In your two axle system, without quartering, the system would be unable to start with the rods in the 3 o'clock or 6 o'clock positions. The powered axle would attempt to rotate, but the (small--cosine again) force transmitted thru the siderod would be normal to the desired direction of travel of the pin on the unpowered axle, thus no vertical component of force to cause rotation. Quartering is essential. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Warren Dewees" Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:25:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75.1, clamav-milter version 0.75c on 127.0.0.1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.0.0-rc2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.0-rc2 (2004-08-15) on ns9.icdc.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Whats being overlooked here is how the energy is being applied to the siderods. With most steamers this is true because of the horizontal cylinders. But the S2, electrics, and some very early steam engines, this is not the case. Warren ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:30:30 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Actually, I interpreted Ted's question as asking if the Pullman Green = cars lettered for Pullman ever ran on the Pennsy. While I don't have = specifics as to particular plans and names, I do recall seeing these = cars depicted in many of the vintage PRR videos available. I'm using = some on my layout Ted so you won't be alone. I'm hoping Branchline = Trains will eventually offer the Pullman owned cars in PRR colors. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton=20 To: 'Ted Andrews'=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:14 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question ~I know that Branchline is producing these cars in Pullman colors and ~markings for pooling service. Does anyone know if the Pennsy ever had = these ~Pullman cars on their system? Ted I=92m not sure what you are driving at with this question =96 the = various cars (within the limitations of mass production) are offered in = prototypical names and paint schemes, so if Branchline are offering a 12-1 in PRR = colours you can be sure that the car was either assigned to Pennsy service or = owned by the PRR at some time in its life.=20 You should also be aware that cars assigned to connecting roads would = show up as well =96 for example you would expect to find ACL, SAL or = Southern assigned cars between DC and New York. Finding out which exact car = names were in use on given routes at any time can be a real challenge, but = you can often extract the car types (such as 12-1 or 10-1-2) from various timetables.=20 For details of specific cars Tom Madden has a detailed database which represents hundreds of hours of work available at = www.pullmanproject.com. This will let you extract the key dates and changes in appearance = (such as the date the car was air-conditioned) for almost any particular car = you care to think of. It does help to have some basic knowledge of Pullman terminology and car types to get the best from the database Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system = (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:44:11 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR in "O" Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:48:21 -0500 To: "J W Box" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, I won't disagree with your math at all. It describes the situation with a fixed point external power source being applied to the crank pin... ie a reciprocating steam engine. As such, there is no question that quartering is need. However, the mathematics are not correct for the instance under discussion, that of a gear driven side rod locomotive. As I have noted, in this later case, the power applied is continuous, and the force vector at the pin on the driven axle is ALWAYS tangent to the wheel at that point. The seminal question, as raised by Tom, is if that force can be applied with the same vector, to a second wheel connected by a rod. I say yes, Tom says no... more to come Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Oct 27, 2004, at 9:26 PM, J W Box wrote: > Bruce: > > I will not comment on driver balancing because I have not studied the > issue. > But I must disagree with you on the S2 quartering issue. My free body > diagramming is a little rusty ( ok, a lot ) but what I came up with is > that > quartering is, for all practical purposes, essential. Assume that we > have > two driver pairs connected with a side rod, but only on one side (for > simplicity). The first driver set we'll call the "powered" set. In the > "rods down" position ( Let's call it 0 degrees ) there is indeed > complete > and smooth force transfer. That's because the force is in the plane > normal > to the side rod that is at 0 degrees and the amount of force is > proportional > to the cosine of 0 degrees or 1. However, as the angle begins to > change to, > say 45 degrees, the force in the plane normal to the side rod has > reduced to > the cosine of 45 degrees, which is a fraction of 1. Things continue to > get > worse until the side rod is at the 90 degree position where the cosine > of 90 > degrees is 0 - meaning there is no force being transferred. > > Now, let's assume that there was a siderod on the other side of our > drivers. > If there were no quartering, you would be no better off than having > one side > rod. With quartering however, as one side began to enter the zero force > region of rotation, the other side would be entering it's maximum force > region. Works out fine. > > If you want to think of it another way, if you graph force vs. driver > angle, > you get a sine (cosine) wave with no quartering. With quartering you > get two > sine waves displaced from each other by 90 degrees. Force never even > gets > near zero. > > At least I've convinced myself for now. Am I right? I wouldn't bet any > money, but I think the argument is sound. You have to admit, I used > some > impressive math terms like cosine. I tried to work cosecant and triple > integration in somewhere, but that will have to wait until learn what > they > mean again. > > Bill Box #366 > > > > > > > Original Message: > Okay Folks, > > It is clear to me that a number of you are struggling with some of the > basic issues involved with balancing and quartering of drivers on some > steam and electric locomotives. I hope that the following will help > y'all to better understand the forces involved and how "balancing" was > (or was not) achieved. > > First, lets take a driver (w/o counter weight or rods). It starts out > "perfectly balanced". If you add a gear and a traction motor, it stays > perfectly balanced... like the O1, P5... etc. > > Now, add a side rod to the driver. This rod has mass. In order to > balance the mass of the rod and the pin, we add a counterweight to the > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:36:37 +0000 >From: "Jerry Breon" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question >Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:30:30 -0400 > From: Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton > Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question > Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 10/25/2004 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Question MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted, Not sure but when I asked that same question at a local train show, the reply was they thought the green pullmans that BLI issued were cars that seen service on western roads. I myself have no idea....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:24:44 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 >Subject: Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 #6200 >From: "J W Box" >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:26:13 -0400 >From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:51:09 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:19:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <1D9CA79C-28FD-11D9-84AE-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.169 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi group, I think it's a matter of the "flow of power." If power is being transmitted FROM the driving wheels to the side rods, quartering might be needed, but is not needed if more than one driving wheel is transmitting power. If power is being transmitted TO the driving wheels from the side rods, quartering is needed. So I agree with whoever said that. In the case of the S2 I think it's pretty heads up engineering to question the need for quartering after 100 years of tradition saying otherwise. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:19:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <1D9CA79C-28FD-11D9-84AE-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.169 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi group, I think it's a matter of the "flow of power." If power is being transmitted FROM the driving wheels to the side rods, quartering might be needed, but is not needed if more than one driving wheel is transmitting power. If power is being transmitted TO the driving wheels from the side rods, quartering is needed. So I agree with whoever said that. In the case of the S2 I think it's pretty heads up engineering to question the need for quartering after 100 years of tradition saying otherwise. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:17:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Geographic knowledge of members X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My interest focuses primarily on the PRR Florida service. I live in Gainesville, Fl and it was on the route served by NYNH&H, PRR, RF&P, SAL, and ACL. All of these railroads had passenger cars that came through Gainesville circa 1900 - 1950. I also have photos of B&O cars in Ocala which is 30 miles south of Gainesville. Both ACL and SAL served Gainesville. Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] pullman question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:28:02 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guyz, Got to wondering if this was related to the 2 tone grey cars = as well. Have seen pix of both schemes in Phila.; now just where, and = when did they get used? Old pix have the green cars all over the = system pre-1949; just don't remember the gery cars in any pix of trains = out on the main line. Maybe they were a corridor thing, NYC-DC, odd that there is = not much info out there on this. Curious minds, etc...... Fred in Vt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] T1 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:35:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Scale Houses From: John Sheets Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:11:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Scale Houses From: John Sheets From: "Dennis" Subject: Re: [PRR] pullman question Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:49:33 -0700 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:08:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] pullman question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Photos from the post W.W. II era of the coach yards near Philly's 30th Station and of New York's Sunnyside Yard show numerous TTG pool sleepers. PRR troop trains serving Fort Dix in New Jersey were well populated with these TTG sleepers. Don't recall any photos of pass. runs with pool sleepers west of Philly. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:53:20 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 27, 2004, at 1:56 PM, tom hayden wrote: > Your description could be close IF we were talking only about 3 or > more axles AND the side rod was a solid rod from end to end. But, in > fact, each rod is pivoted at each crank, to allow for a sprung > suspension. If it were a solid rod across 3 axles, then each pivot > point would constrain the motion and allow the "lifting" action at > 3:00 to transmit to the other two crank points. Okay, so here's a bit of a good news bad new scenario... I didn't bring this up, because I think it is irrelevant to the argument, although the 3 coupled loco is a lot more intuitively easy to understand. But, in the case of the S2, I looked at all the photos I could last night, and then looked at some additional pictured of 4 or more coupled locos on the web today, and it seems to me that the S2 had a solid rod between drivers 2, 3 and 4 and that the only articulation was at driver 2. This is also the case on a number of other reciprocating steam locomotives. Where articulated, the articulation of the rods sometimes appears to occur ahead of the crank pin and not over it. Now here's a question. If the S2 had geared drives on axles 2 and 3, why did it need a rod connection these two???? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:08:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Charlie, BOD, & List, I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as do cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location along an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or PRR for Chicago). Cincy was an issue - the Cardinal got in/left at atrocious hours and no convenient transportation to/from the station. However, Bennett Levin does have a pair of E-8's and now 3 (count 'em!) Pennsy cars. He has experience pulling excursions and a super reputation for reliability - usually no back-up engines required. (I've cc'd him on this - nothing like "volunteering" someone and not telling them!) Admittedly, these excursions aren't cheap, but distant conventions do require trading off cost with time/convenience. And locations in cities like Buffalo and especially Chicago would attract a ton of people. Perhaps Buffalo could be done in conjunction with an NMRA event - they've had some super conventions in that area - the Canadian folks put on an amazing show. Or could we do our convention in conjunction with other RR organizations (or even non RR organizations?). This could help increase attendance. If we get enough people, we have bargaining power with convention hotels - there are a lot of them in the Buffalo area and Chicago needs no further comment. And Amtrak has regularly scheduled trains to both locations from several origins. Not just sure what's available with sleepers thru PA over the old PRR these days - Amtrak seems to be curtailing service more than adding it. Maybe the election next Tue will help (please, please!). Just another idea, but hey - there's a lot of Pennsy out there, and we need to find ways to visit them and explore. Hosts? Chicago chapter is new and there's no chapter in Buffalo. So some other chapter or the national hosts it. There's a ton of non RR stuff (horrors!) to do in Buffalo (AAA baseball, Buffalo Central Terminal, huge RR yards, big shopping malls for non rail fans, Niagara Falls a short distance away, casinos, golf - the list goes on and on. Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you listening?). Keep me posted - how can I help? Can we get a group together to discuss these and other ideas at Camp Hill? Can we get Bennett to Camp Hill - he seems to often have an excursion that coincides with convention weekend, but this year we're a couple weekends later - so I can do the convention and Bennett's spring excursion too! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII (modeling it slowly, vewy, vewy slowly!) ----- Original Message ----- From: charliehoran@aol.com To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members > Anyway, we ended up having > a great PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati. Keep trying, Charles! We may > have > one in Rochester,NY some year! Speaking NOW as one director of the PRRT&HS, if other "outlying" areas of the PRR system can attract the attendance that Cincy did, even if they can only do half as well in putting it all together, I would certainly support branching out to other locations of the System. By any measure the Cincy Annual Meeting was among, if not THE best, ever. And certainly everyone in attendance gained new Pennsy knowledge as a result! For those that couldn't go (or wouldn't go), it was their loss! Rochester, NY may be in for and open for debate but, the concept is valid. Cincy proved THAT beyond question! Please keep in mind though, as our organization "ages" travel of any distance becomes increasingly more difficult for many of our members. The further we go from our organization's population center, the more members CAN'T come. There is some counterbalance to that f actor from attendance by those that live near the "outlying" site, which otherwise would not have come to a more central location. As long as we gain about as many as we lose, it may make sense to alter our meeting sites. Of course, having a group stand up and take on the responsibility to put it all together is the single biggest hurdle. Putting it all together is a very challenging task for quite a number of people. The BoD is prepared to consider alternate sites for the convention if the needs of the Society are met while holding an Annual Meeting at a "remote" location. The Cincy group did that very nicely. Others may wish to take that on, as well. If you are interested, get your group together and "tell it to the BoD"! You just may "get your wish"! Will you be ready?!!!!!!! ceh. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101 was Question about S2 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:16:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: I think I understand what you are saying. But it is not the siderod that is being driven by the gear - it is the axle of the driver. The force there is continuous and constant. Then however, the force it transferred to a traditional crank (the driver and crank pin) and that is where my previous analysis takes over. Regarding the direction of the force vector, it's direction and magnitude will be the vector sum of all the forces acting against the crank pin/ siderod area. These forces include the turbine force, gravity on the any unbalanced drivers and siderods (Thanks Steve) and probably other small forces. One thing I think, though, is that the forces on the crank pin will only be tangential when the drivers are in rods high or rods low position. The only times. Late Breaking News!!!! Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive input on the S2. Results: 1. Need 2 siderods 2. Need quartering Yes! You can try this at home! While you turn the axle, see if you notice that it gets harder to turn as the siderods move between rods down and rods up. Go slowly and cheaters will be punished! Gets pretty tough there where the rods are level with the driver axles doesn't it? That's because the force just turned to zero in that area. Do a simple experiment yourself and end the controversy. Thanks for the opportunity to use some new math words like vector sum and tangential. Next time I intend to work in the word protoplasm. Bill Box #366 Original Message: Bill, I won't disagree with your math at all. It describes the situation with a fixed point external power source being applied to the crank pin... ie a reciprocating steam engine. As such, there is no question that quartering is need. However, the mathematics are not correct for the instance under discussion, that of a gear driven side rod locomotive. As I have noted, in this later case, the power applied is continuous, and the force vector at the pin on the driven axle is ALWAYS tangent to the wheel at that point. The seminal question, as raised by Tom, is if that force can be applied with the same vector, to a second wheel connected by a rod. I say yes, Tom says no... more to come Regards Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:44:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill and other PRRT&HS members, Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the country. I was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for example. Many of us are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill or Harrisburg aren't exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's wrong with some of the convention oriented cities on the former PRR, like New York City and Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. Frankly, from where I live, I doubt I'll ever make a convention as it is at least three days' driving in each direction, there's no Amtrak, and airfares are prohibitively expensive from this area. Gregg Mahlkov, PRRT&HS #7418. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-TALK" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > Charlie, BOD, & List, > > I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as > do > cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the > BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location > along > an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a > couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or > PRR for Chicago). Cincy was an issue - the Cardinal got in/left at > atrocious hours and no convenient transportation to/from the station. > However, Bennett Levin does have a pair of E-8's and now 3 (count 'em!) > Pennsy cars. He has experience pulling excursions and a super reputation > for reliability - usually no back-up engines required. (I've cc'd him on > this - nothing like "volunteering" someone and not telling them!) > Admittedly, these excursions aren't cheap, but distant conventions do > require trading off cost with time/convenience. And locations in cities > like Buffalo and especially Chicago would attract a ton of people. > Perhaps > Buffalo could be done in conjunction with an NMRA event - they've had some > super conventions in that area - the Canadian folks put on an amazing > show. > > Or could we do our convention in conjunction with other RR organizations > (or > even non RR organizations?). This could help increase attendance. If we > get enough people, we have bargaining power with convention hotels - there > are a lot of them in the Buffalo area and Chicago needs no further > comment. > And Amtrak has regularly scheduled trains to both locations from several > origins. Not just sure what's available with sleepers thru PA over the > old > PRR these days - Amtrak seems to be curtailing service more than adding > it. > Maybe the election next Tue will help (please, please!). > > Just another idea, but hey - there's a lot of Pennsy out there, and we > need > to find ways to visit them and explore. Hosts? Chicago chapter is new > and > there's no chapter in Buffalo. So some other chapter or the national > hosts > it. There's a ton of non RR stuff (horrors!) to do in Buffalo (AAA > baseball, Buffalo Central Terminal, huge RR yards, big shopping malls for > non rail fans, Niagara Falls a short distance away, casinos, golf - the > list > goes on and on. Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can > shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you > listening?). > > Keep me posted - how can I help? Can we get a group together to discuss > these and other ideas at Camp Hill? Can we get Bennett to Camp Hill - he > seems to often have an excursion that coincides with convention weekend, > but > this year we're a couple weekends later - so I can do the convention and > Bennett's spring excursion too! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII (modeling it slowly, vewy, vewy slowly!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: charliehoran@aol.com > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:54 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members > > > > >> Anyway, we ended up having >> a great PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati. Keep trying, Charles! We may >> have >> one in Rochester,NY some year! > > Speaking NOW as one director of the PRRT&HS, if other "outlying" areas of > the > PRR system can attract the attendance that Cincy did, even if they can > only > do half as well in putting it all together, I would certainly support > branching > out to other locations of the System. By any measure the Cincy Annual > Meeting was among, if not THE best, ever. And certainly everyone in > attendance > gained new Pennsy knowledge as a result! For those that couldn't go (or > wouldn't > go), it was their loss! > > Rochester, NY may be in for and open for debate but, the concept is valid. > Cincy proved THAT beyond question! Please keep in mind though, as our > organization "ages" travel of any distance becomes increasingly more > difficult for > many of our members. The further we go from our organization's population > center, the more members CAN'T come. There is some counterbalance to that > f > actor > from attendance by those that live near the "outlying" site, which > otherwise > would not have come to a more central location. As long as we gain about > as > many > as we lose, it may make sense to alter our meeting sites. Of course, > having > a group stand up and take on the responsibility to put it all together is > the > single biggest hurdle. Putting it all together is a very challenging task > for > quite a number of people. > > The BoD is prepared to consider alternate sites for the convention if the > needs of the Society are met while holding an Annual Meeting at a "remote" > location. The Cincy group did that very nicely. Others may wish to take > that on, > as well. If you are interested, get your group together and "tell it to > the > BoD"! You just may "get your wish"! Will you be ready?!!!!!!! > > ceh. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:30:09 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] driver quartering ( Long) From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:28:42 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <00c201c4bd32$4072db20$ecdfc845@stny.rr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcS9M1bFoktb0WK0SM+rpLIiP4OXowACd2xw Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would sell one of my kidneys to ride behind Mr Levin's E-8's on an excursion to Chicago... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR but I'd fly anywhere to get on board! ========================= -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:08 PM To: PRR-TALK Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Charlie, BOD, & List, I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as do cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location along an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:28:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [68.160.134.136] at Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:28:51 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think that if a crank pin is in the 90 or 270 degree position relative to straight up, that is, in line with the axle center and the connected crankpins, then any force applied along the connecting rod against that crankpin will not result in any turning moment being applied to that crankpin. It is on Dead Center. It does not matter what is driving the connecting rod. While the S2 turbine, by virtue of its gearing to two axles, will be able to apply a turning force to those two axles and their drivers, the outer two axles are still dependent on the connecting rods to drive them. The engine _may_ be able to move off dead center via those geared axles. However, it will be relying on only half its driver complement to do so. Steve Bartlett Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:57:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Also look in NJ (New Jersey) It's not that bad of a place. Is there a PRR chapter in NJ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:59:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How good is it? Or how old is it? now thats the ?????? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "William Bigler" , "PRR-TALK" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:27:07 -0400 To: "Gregg Mahlkov" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 28, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the > country. I was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for > example. Many of us are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill > or Harrisburg aren't exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's > wrong with some of the convention oriented cities on the former PRR, > like New York City and Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. Harrisburg's airport actually does have more non-stops than you'd think, including to Orlando and Tampa... but only for a one or two airlines. NYC and Washington would be very expensive. I was thrilled at how well the attendance was for Cincy... but you can't go that far west that often... for the majority that drive from the greater Philly area. Yes, you Florida guys have a hike no matter where, but if 75% drive, you need to keep them in mind. I'd like to see us go to Chicago. But with 2005 and 2006 in Camp Hill, and 2007 in Pittsburgh, I would not recommend going west of Pittsburgh until, say, 2010. A location north of Baltimore might be nice (Hunt Valley?). Or maybe a DelMarVa location if enough local programming could be generated? Also, if you went up the old Elmira branch, the Finger Lakes and the wineries would make for great spousal unit tours... heck, perhaps even family getaways! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Morlitz Subject: [PRR] PRR Mural in West Philly Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:26:42 -0400 To: PRR Fax , PRR Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com While traveling along Lancaster Avenue in West Philadelphia Tuesday, I saw a new wall mural on the northwest corner of 40th & Lancaster. The mural, sponsored by the Belmont Improvement Group along with many sponsors, welcomes visitors to the Belmont area and depicts, among other sights, the PRR's influence in the area. Fully half (the right side) of the mural shows the track route past Zoo along with two engines. The 2 engines are #3750 K4s on tracks behind GG1 #4913 (which is done in Tuscan red with 5 gold stripes). While not entirely accurate (there is no catenary nor is there a pantagraph up), the spirit is certainly there. I'll post the pictures as soon as I have a chance . Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill Coloroso spoke on the Elmira Branch at the Rochester NY NRHS meeting in September 2004. Roy Breon ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-TALK" ; Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Jim & list, I am (still) looking for information on the Buffalo line from Williamsport (Allens) through Keating Summit (KS), especially pictures and most especially (salivate!), movies! Particular interests are Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium, and Keating Summit. Seems noone with a camera ever got there. Clarence Weaver never got that far west (north) and John Profit never got that far east (south). But I still ask. I've tried Jeff Pontius who did the videos of Clarence Weaver's films (Penn Valley Pictures), but he doesn't answer, despite several tries. However, hope springs eternal. Even Bill Coloroso who wrote the superb book "The Elmira Branch" was amazed at the total lack of information and photos of Williamsport. Anyone heard from Bill lately? Thanks in advance. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:47:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have in my possession a pamphlet reprint by ALCO Models titled Steam Turbine Locomotive originally printed for Baldwin-Westinghouse. It is specific for S2 6200. Here are some points from the pamphlet: 1) "The use of a turbine drive eliminates piston rods and other reciprocating parts and, therefore, the driving wheels can be perfectly balanced." 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) & the reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not designed to fly in reverse! 3) Pages 8 & 9 have pictures of some of the major components. The captions are: a) Transmission unit, without turbines, mounted on two center pairs of driving wheels; b) One of the main driving gears mounted on the axle; c) Reversing gear and clutch which engages the turbine when the locomotive backs up; d) Roller-bearing connecting rods for one side of the locomotive. 4) "In order to obtain favorable tractive effort when starting at low speed, the turbine is overbladed and the maximum efficiency and horsepower are attained at a locomotive speed of about 70 miles per hour." 5) "All four driving axles are fitted with roller bearing boxes..." 6) "All four pairs of driving wheels are connected by side rods with roller bearings at the crankpins." See notes below. 6) "No main rods, crossheads or valve motion work are required because of the turbine drive." Other interesting tidbits: There are "clasp brakes on the driving wheels and on all engine truck and tender truck wheels." "The forward turbine is never disengaged and must therefore operate in a direction of rotation opposite to normal when the locomotive is moving in reverse." "...97 per cent of the turbine's power reaches the axles." Notes: Incidentally, the picture of the side rod is of two pieces overlapped on drive axles 2 & 3 with ball bearings encased around the openings where the side rod mounts onto the axles. Regarding the question about quartering... YES they are! The picture of the transmission mounted on the drive wheels and the picture of the main drive gear mounted on an axle clearly depicts the quartering. All axles were geared and, therefore, needed to be connected with a side rod to evenly distribute tractive effort (power) and maybe not to over heat the turbine or 2 & 3 axles and gears. I hope this helps. I don't know about the sine and the cosine and how that relates to the information above. Stay on track, Steve D'Addio Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver balancing and quartering 101 > On Oct 27, 2004, at 1:56 PM, tom hayden wrote: >> Your description could be close IF we were talking only about 3 or >> more axles AND the side rod was a solid rod from end to end. But, in >> fact, each rod is pivoted at each crank, to allow for a sprung >> suspension. If it were a solid rod across 3 axles, then each pivot >> point would constrain the motion and allow the "lifting" action at >> 3:00 to transmit to the other two crank points. > > Okay, so here's a bit of a good news bad new scenario... I didn't > bring this up, because I think it is irrelevant to the argument, although > the 3 coupled loco is a lot more intuitively easy to understand. > > But, in the case of the S2, I looked at all the photos I could last night, > and then looked at some additional pictured of 4 or more coupled locos on > the web today, and it seems to me that the S2 had a solid rod between > drivers 2, 3 and 4 and that the only articulation was at driver 2. This > is also the case on a number of other reciprocating steam locomotives. > Where articulated, the articulation of the rods sometimes appears to occur > ahead of the crank pin and not over it. > > Now here's a question. If the S2 had geared drives on axles 2 and 3, why > did it need a rod connection these two???? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Pennsylvania Railroad Northern Region Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:34:59 -0400 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 28, 2004, at 9:22 PM, William Bigler wrote: > Any idea just when Triumph VII will be out? They're a real wealth of > information. Unfortunately, it may not be in time to help me with my > presentation for Camp Hill. Did you mean THIS fall, as is '04?? Mr. Messer told me yesterday there was a death in the family of the publisher which caused a delay. However, my book supplier also told me yesterday that he spoke with Mr. Roberts and he said the delay was caused by some last minute revisions that were being made to the text and the delay would be six weeks (from yesterday). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] SD9 Use Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 06:57:06 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F83F5@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] SD9 Use Thread-Index: AcS9SE9dzM6jyX/YRha9+RSTJIHYtwAaA8fA From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "TCJ Riggs" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 7600-7607 were used as hump engines at E, Altoona. 7608 to about 15 were at Enola as hump engines. The rest were scattered between Columbus and Indianapolis as hump engines. If your model railroad has a hump, they should be right at home. Bill V. PS: The 7603, if I remember correctly, at E. Altoona had the keystones painted with a gold background rather than the traditional red. It was the only one painted that way. Never did find out why. Anybody know? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of TCJ Riggs Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:51 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] SD9 Use The recent talk about SDs prompts this question. I am repainting and lettering two SD9s for the PRR from the 25 numbered 7600-7625. How would they have been used compared to the vastly greater number of GP9s? Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:11:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-TALK" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations ... > Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can > shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you > listening?). > Buffalo Line? You keep saying you're interested in "the Buffalo Line from Williamsport to Keating Summit." You should say "the Philadelphia & Erie", or "the Main Line - Erie". Buffalo Line??? :-P ------------ Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Pullmans Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:37:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Our initial shipment of Walthers 12-1 Pullmans arrived this morning and = included cars for Pennsy, Pullman pool and NYC. All cars have = electro-mechanical A/C and top equalized trucks. I know there was some = talk that the A/C system components would be railroad-specific and = installed by the buyer but such is not the case. The decal sheet has 32 = names for Pennsy cars - twice the number for any other railroad or = Pullman pool. On a quick once-over the cars look very nice and the trucks roll well = but not great. It will remain to be seen if Pennsy modelers will buy = these cars and run them as-is or opt to change the A/C system to ice or = just stick with the Branchline cars. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Pullmans Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:37:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Our initial shipment of Walthers 12-1 Pullmans arrived this morning and = included cars for Pennsy, Pullman pool and NYC. All cars have = electro-mechanical A/C and top equalized trucks. I know there was some = talk that the A/C system components would be railroad-specific and = installed by the buyer but such is not the case. The decal sheet has 32 = names for Pennsy cars - twice the number for any other railroad or = Pullman pool. On a quick once-over the cars look very nice and the trucks roll well = but not great. It will remain to be seen if Pennsy modelers will buy = these cars and run them as-is or opt to change the A/C system to ice or = just stick with the Branchline cars. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:11:15 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well Chicago has some of the cheapest airfares around with Southwest flying into Midway. Right now they have $39.00 fares to most destinations which is probably cheaper and definitely faster than driving. We are being considered and are talking about what we could do at our meetings. In the east somewhere between Trenton and Newark would allow excursions in both directions to New York for those who have never ridden the corridor and Philadelphia. Just a thought. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Gregg Mahlkov" : -------------- > Bill and other PRRT&HS members, > > Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the country. I > was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for example. Many of us > are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill or Harrisburg aren't > exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's wrong with some of the > convention oriented cities on the former PRR, like New York City and > Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. > > Frankly, from where I live, I doubt I'll ever make a convention as it is at > least three days' driving in each direction, there's no Amtrak, and airfares > are prohibitively expensive from this area. > > Gregg Mahlkov, PRRT&HS #7418. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Bigler" > To: "PRR-TALK" > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:08 PM > Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > > > > Charlie, BOD, & List, > > > > I agree that as we age, driving time/distance become more of an issue, as > > do > > cost and wear/tear on the body. However, here's a thought: How about the > > BOD kicking around the idea of a train to the convention or a location > > along > > an Amtrak line? If it were say, in Buffalo or even Chicago, there are a > > couple routes available (ex NYC and/or Buffalo Line for Buff; ex NYC &/or > > PRR for Chicago). Cincy was an issue - the Cardinal got in/left at > > atrocious hours and no convenient transportation to/from the station. > > However, Bennett Levin does have a pair of E-8's and now 3 (count 'em!) > > Pennsy cars. He has experience pulling excursions and a super reputation > > for reliability - usually no back-up engines required. (I've cc'd him on > > this - nothing like "volunteering" someone and not telling them!) > > Admittedly, these excursions aren't cheap, but distant conventions do > > require trading off cost with time/convenience. And locations in cities > > like Buffalo and especially Chicago would attract a ton of people. > > Perhaps > > Buffalo could be done in conjunction with an NMRA event - they've had some > > super conventions in that area - the Canadian folks put on an amazing > > show. > > > > Or could we do our convention in conjunction with other RR organizations > > (or > > even non RR organizations?). This could help increase attendance. If we > > get enough people, we have bargaining power with convention hotels - there > > are a lot of them in the Buffalo area and Chicago needs no further > > comment. > > And Amtrak has regularly scheduled trains to both locations from several > > origins. Not just sure what's available with sleepers thru PA over the > > old > > PRR these days - Amtrak seems to be curtailing service more than adding > > it. > > Maybe the election next Tue will help (please, please!). > > > > Just another idea, but hey - there's a lot of Pennsy out there, and we > > need > > to find ways to visit them and explore. Hosts? Chicago chapter is new > > and > > there's no chapter in Buffalo. So some other chapter or the national > > hosts > > it. There's a ton of non RR stuff (horrors!) to do in Buffalo (AAA > > baseball, Buffalo Central Terminal, huge RR yards, big shopping malls for > > non rail fans, Niagara Falls a short distance away, casinos, golf - the > > list > > goes on and on. Let's be creative, make some inquiries, and see if we can > > shake some of we Buffalo line folks awake (Jerry Shickler, are you > > listening?). > > > > Keep me posted - how can I help? Can we get a group together to discuss > > these and other ideas at Camp Hill? Can we get Bennett to Camp Hill - he > > seems to often have an excursion that coincides with convention weekend, > > but > > this year we're a couple weekends later - so I can do the convention and > > Bennett's spring excursion too! > > > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > > Big Flats NY > > Modeling PRR Renovo & > > Williamsport WWII (modeling it slowly, vewy, vewy slowly!) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: charliehoran@aol.com > > To: PRR@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 2:54 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Geographic knowledge of members > > > > > > > > > >> Anyway, we ended up having > >> a great PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati. Keep trying, Charles! We may > >> have > >> one in Rochester,NY some year! > > > > Speaking NOW as one director of the PRRT&HS, if other "outlying" areas of > > the > > PRR system can attract the attendance that Cincy did, even if they can > > only > > do half as well in putting it all together, I would certainly support > > branching > > out to other locations of the System. By any measure the Cincy Annual > > Meeting was among, if not THE best, ever. And certainly everyone in > > attendance > > gained new Pennsy knowledge as a result! For those that couldn't go (or > > wouldn't > > go), it was their loss! > > > > Rochester, NY may be in for and open for debate but, the concept is valid. > > Cincy proved THAT beyond question! Please keep in mind though, as our > > organization "ages" travel of any distance becomes increasingly more > > difficult for > > many of our members. The further we go from our organization's population > > center, the more members CAN'T come. There is some counterbalance to that > > f > > actor > > from attendance by those that live near the "outlying" site, which > > otherwise > > would not have come to a more central location. As long as we gain about > > as > > many > > as we lose, it may make sense to alter our meeting sites. Of course, > > having > > a group stand up and take on the responsibility to put it all together is > > the > > single biggest hurdle. Putting it all together is a very challenging task > > for > > quite a number of people. > > > > The BoD is prepared to consider alternate sites for the convention if the > > needs of the Society are met while holding an Annual Meeting at a "remote" > > location. The Cincy group did that very nicely. Others may wish to take > > that on, > > as well. If you are interested, get your group together and "tell it to > > the > > BoD"! You just may "get your wish"! Will you be ready?!!!!!!! > > > > ceh. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: driver quartering ( Corrected- still long) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:58:13 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 29, 2004, at 6:34 AM, tom hayden having a "EUREKA" moment wrote: > Group, Amazingly I may have had an error in my previous analysis! > I think I see a fatal error. > In other words, as Bruce and others have noted, (but without any > proof!) QUARTERING IS NOT NEEDED - Sort of! Isn't that the way it always works? The physicist KNOWS it works, but leaves it to the engineer to explain HOW it works (especially in the REAL WORLD!!!) I think my family physicist will indeed be happy with your explanation. When last seen she was waving her arms and muttering something about conservation of energy, first law of thermodynamics, abradcadabra, etc... ;^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:34:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I remember and still here talk about the year the convention was held in Wilmington, DE. Why has there been no effort made to return there again? Still lots of former PRR facilities to see and perhaps tour (if Amtrak would cooperate). And Wilmington offers lots of spouse tour opportunities (Longwood Gardens, Winterthur, Brandywine, etc.) as well as lower costs than Philly, New York or DC. Chris Baker PRRT&HS#1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Oct 28, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > Please don't forget that the membership is scattered all over the > > country. I was surprised to find that 99 of us live in Florida, for > > example. Many of us are nowhere near an Amtrak route. And, Camp Hill > > or Harrisburg aren't exactly close to a major airline hub. But, what's > > wrong with some of the convention oriented cities on the former PRR, > > like New York City and Washington, DC? They can get expensive, though. > > Harrisburg's airport actually does have more non-stops than you'd > think, including to Orlando and Tampa... but only for a one or two > airlines. > > NYC and Washington would be very expensive. > > I was thrilled at how well the attendance was for Cincy... but you > can't go that far west that often... for the majority that drive from > the greater Philly area. Yes, you Florida guys have a hike no matter > where, but if 75% drive, you need to keep them in mind. > > I'd like to see us go to Chicago. But with 2005 and 2006 in Camp Hill, > and 2007 in Pittsburgh, I would not recommend going west of Pittsburgh > until, say, 2010. > > A location north of Baltimore might be nice (Hunt Valley?). Or maybe a > DelMarVa location if enough local programming could be generated? > > Also, if you went up the old Elmira branch, the Finger Lakes and the > wineries would make for great spousal unit tours... heck, perhaps even > family getaways! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Don Harper Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:43:20 -0500 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 14:50:27.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[A127A240:01C4BDC6] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com How about Buffalo, NY? Southwest flies in there. My favorite engine, I1sa 4483, is just a few miles down the road in Hamburg. We could all go there and crawl all over her. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: RE: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:20:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2004 15:18:00.0648 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A526480:01C4BDCA] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My vote is Pittsburgh... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Don Harper Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:43 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations How about Buffalo, NY? Southwest flies in there. My favorite engine, I1sa 4483, is just a few miles down the road in Hamburg. We could all go there and crawl all over her. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:28:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Sam Vastano wrote: > My vote is Pittsburgh... Already planned for 2007. This was announced by the BoD many months ago. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Driver Quartering, Scientists, & Engineers Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:38:26 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Being both a scientist and an engineer (obsolete in both categories!), I = feel qualified to comment without fear of upsetting anyone or being = taken seriously. Scientists are driven to know why it works. Engineers are content to = know how to make it work. We do talk to each other, however. Bill Bigler,=20 BS (you know what that means), MS (more of same), and former member of = Sigma XI (you don't wanna know) - let's just play trains. Time to leave = for Harrisburg & Susquehanna Ltd! And Bruce & ole Ben were right: "Beer is proof that God loves us and = wants us to be happy" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Smith=20 To: PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-talk LIST=20 Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: driver quartering ( Corrected- still long) On Oct 29, 2004, at 6:34 AM, tom hayden having a "EUREKA" moment = wrote: > Group, Amazingly I may have had an error in my previous analysis! > I think I see a fatal error. > In other words, as Bruce and others have noted, (but without any > proof!) QUARTERING IS NOT NEEDED - Sort of! Isn't that the way it always works? The physicist KNOWS it works, but = leaves it to the engineer to explain HOW it works (especially in the=20 REAL WORLD!!!) I think my family physicist will indeed be = happy=20 with your explanation. When last seen she was waving her arms and=20 muttering something about conservation of energy, first law of=20 thermodynamics, abradcadabra, etc... ;^) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 =20 Get unlimited calls to U.S./Canada =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:49:36 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Driver quartering ( Corrected- still long) From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:59:12 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The decal sheet with the Walthers 12-1's only has 16 Pennsy names - not = 32 as I originally reported (told you it was a quick look). All of the Pennsy names provided are = for ice A/C cars. Did Pennsy have any 12-1 cars with electro-mechanical = A/C? Another subject - in our initial shipment of Branchline 12-1's were some = New Haven cars in Pennsy paint and striping; specifically Israel Putnam = and John Winthrop. Can anyone advise which Pennsy trains these might = have been seen on and during what time period? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:11:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conventions X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Folks, I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my question, why hasn't anybody mentioned Altoona? I was convention chairman for the MER hosted NMRA three region convention in Altoona in October 2000. We had a great convention. There is a lot to do in the Altoona/Greater Altoona area for "non-rails" and I won't even mention what to do for us SPF's. I would think that the Museum staff would welcome us and I know the Chamber of Commerce would. Local transportation was great (I chartered the local bus company to run shuttles and back and forth to the Museum as well as a trip to Johnstown. There is adequate AMTRAK service as well excellent road network to the area. Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing about and of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told me has been spruced up a bit. So, how come nothing has been mentioned about Altoona. Bob Martin York, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:11:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Conventions X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Folks, I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my question, why hasn't anybody mentioned Altoona? I was convention chairman for the MER hosted NMRA three region convention in Altoona in October 2000. We had a great convention. There is a lot to do in the Altoona/Greater Altoona area for "non-rails" and I won't even mention what to do for us SPF's. I would think that the Museum staff would welcome us and I know the Chamber of Commerce would. Local transportation was great (I chartered the local bus company to run shuttles and back and forth to the Museum as well as a trip to Johnstown. There is adequate AMTRAK service as well excellent road network to the area. Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing about and of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told me has been spruced up a bit. So, how come nothing has been mentioned about Altoona. Bob Martin York, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:24:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thrust reversers X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/29/04 1:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) &the > reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not > designed to fly in reverse! > I'm not sure any turbines are designed to reverse. Aircraft turbines don't reverse. Their "thrust reversers" reroute the exhaust forward, giving braking thrust. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:24:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Thrust reversers X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/29/04 1:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) &the > reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not > designed to fly in reverse! > I'm not sure any turbines are designed to reverse. Aircraft turbines don't reverse. Their "thrust reversers" reroute the exhaust forward, giving braking thrust. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:25:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Conventions X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just thinking back to my Pennsy days, especially while based in Buffalo, there were two cities that I always enjoyed visiting, Olean, NY and Oil City. They were bigg PRR locations then. I don't know what, if anything, remains of the PRR at either location. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:24:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Doug, The PRR T&H Society bulletin, The KEYSTONE, has had several good articles. They did the D78 in the spring of 2003 and had two editions on the D70 many years ago. I know because before I asked my question, I searched my own library, including KEYSTONEs back to 1978. The Society's website lists available back issue for sale. regards, Andy Miller From: Douglas Kirkpatrick [mailto:kirkpat@charter.net] > I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that > have described specific RR dining car history but I haven't found one, or a > magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone > know of such a source? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:24:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] PRR D78 A/C Doug, The PRR T&H Society bulletin, The KEYSTONE, has had several good articles. They did the D78 in the spring of 2003 and had two editions on the D70 many years ago. I know because before I asked my question, I searched my own library, including KEYSTONEs back to 1978. The Society's website lists available back issue for sale. regards, Andy Miller From: Douglas Kirkpatrick [mailto:kirkpat@charter.net] > I have a special interest in RR diners. There are some books out there that > have described specific RR dining car history but I haven't found one, or a > magazine article, that gives a lot of info on Pennsy diners. Does anyone > know of such a source? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:22:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tom: I think the torque is a function of the cosine of the crank angle - not sine. But whatever. Please answer this: If the torque is a function of the sine of the crank angle, then you are correct in saying that as the crank angle approaches 9:00 the torque in your example approaches 10 ft-pounds. That must mean that if the crank is at 12:00 or 6:00 the force is still a function of the sine of the crank angle which, in this case is zero. Zero force, nada, zip. You have already conceded that we all know that the force is 10 foot-pounds, a value predicted by the cosine theory. One of the foundations of Newtonian Mechanics is that the laws of physics are constant regardless of position in the universe, from one corner of a cell's protoplasm to another, and from one driver position to another. I stand by my original analysis. I would like to sum up my position to clarify any confusion: 1. Two driver pairs, connected by one siderod (the other side has no siderod) will stall at 9:00 and 3:00 unless the "flywheel" effect allows the drivers to coast through those positions 2. Situation 1 above is independent of how the force is applied 3. Two driver pairs connected by TWO siderods (one each side) that have drivers with identical crank angles, act like Situation 1 4. Force applied by the crank pin to the siderod is a function of the cosine of the crank angle where 0 degrees is rods down. 5. Two siderods with different crank angles must be used for there to be a no stall condition. The force can be graphed (even calculated) by graphing the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angles of the two siderods displaced by their difference in crank angles. If you do this, you will see that while quartering is not the only solution, it does give the smoothest force vs. crank angle curve available - a very good thing, indeed. You will also see that the only angles that will not work under any circumstances is ... ready? ... 0 degrees displacement. I also stand by my challenge I made in my last post to stop all these mind experiments and do a simple real test that should settle matters. I argue from a position of strength... I've done it. I could have goofed it up, though. I believed in cold fusion. I would like a few folks to do it, too. I think I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, but a quick poll of my co-workers puts me in Nader territory. "Crude" is often mentioned. I have repeated the experimental procedure, below, for those who had the good judgment to delete my last post. I don't know about the rest of you, but my math vocabulary is extinguished. Anyone notice the deft way I slipped in "protoplasm"? I told you I would try. If there is a next time, how about split pea soup? Bill Box #366 THE EXPERIMENT: Late Breaking News!!!! Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive input on the S2. Results: 1. Need 2 siderods 2. Need quartering Yes! You can try this at home! While you turn the axle, see if you notice that it gets harder to turn as the siderods move between rods down and rods up. Go slowly and cheaters will be punished! Gets pretty tough there where the rods are level with the driver axles doesn't it? That's because the force just turned to zero in that area. Tom wrote: Group, Amazingly I may have had an error in my previous analysis! I think I see a fatal error. Consider this: Same scenario, 0-4-0 with crank radius of 1 ft and .... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Conventions Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:54:29 -0400 To: Cprrboss@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 29, 2004, at 2:11 PM, Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's > something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my > question, why hasn't > anybody mentioned Altoona? > > Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing > about and > of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told > me has > been spruced up a bit. A convention center may change things, but Altoona had space issues. The one hotel that was large enough to house everyone really didn't have a good space for presentations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edmund Lee Burbage" Subject: [PRR] qUESTION Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:57:11 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com WHAT IS THE eMAIL ADDRESS FOR THE prr tALK LINE i GET ON THE COMPUTER? i = WANT TO POST A QUESTION TO SEE IF ANYONE KNOWS IF A CERTAIN PERSON IS A = MEMBER OF THE prrt&h sOCIETY. leeswitchkey@mchsi.com . LEE BURBAGE 1943 PRRT&H Soc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] SD9 use Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:08:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The recent discussion on SDs prompts me to ask how the 25 SDs would have been used compared to the greater number of GP9s. I am repainting and numbering a pair of SD9s in N scale. Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD9 use Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 18:48:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My apologies for sending this query twice. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" To: Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 6:08 PM Subject: [PRR] SD9 use > The recent discussion on SDs prompts me to ask how the 25 SDs would have > been used compared to the greater number of GP9s. I am repainting and > numbering a pair of SD9s in N scale. > > Tom Riggs > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:06:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9403514b551ee60a0f84a74ecca9445e832350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.248 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For Bill, Tom, Bruce and anyone else still holding on. For everyone else, don't fuss, just use the DELETE button. We seem to be nibbling around the edges of this. Maybe--hopefully--this, together with Bill's "lab exercise", will shed some light we can all see. First, Tom wrote: > >So at 10 Deg from 9:00 the rod has much greater force applied in the >horizontal direction than the 10 lbs. > This is indeed truly remarkable, but I think the first people we should tell it to are Capt Kirk, Spock, and, especially, Scotty. (VBG) To be consistent let's adopt Tom's terminology of Driving wheel (gear attached with motor) and Driven wheel (driven by siderod only), and mounted to the right of the Driving wheel, like looking at the engineeer's side of our 0-4-0. Also, since it is the easiest to visualize, let's call it like a clock face with 12 o'clock straight up, 3 on the right, 6 down, 9 on the left, etc. Also, forward motion to the right. The siderod ends fit on the crankpins with no perceptible tolerance yet are free to rotate. Consider first the Driving wheel (and Driven wheel) with crankpin at 9 o'clock. As torque is applied the wheel rotates clockwise. At the point at which the wheel has rotated 10 deg, the force being transmitted thru the siderod is the horizontal component of the force tangent to the arc at the crankpin (let's call that force F), or F x sin 10 deg. As the angle increases, the horizontal component increases since sine goes from 0 to 1 as the angle goes from 0 deg to 90 deg. But there is more to the story. Our Driving wheel has rigidly attached to it an axle and the wheel on the fireman's side. The two wheels and axle can only rotate as a unit. Consider our two wheel/axle assembly to be quartered, with left hand lead, of course. And let's continue to observe from the engineer's side so that we see the inside of the fireman's side wheel. When our Driving wheel started rotating with the crankpin at the 9 o'clock position, the fireman's side Driving wheel started rotating with the crankpin at the 12 o'clock position. At the point at which the fireman's side wheel has rotated 10 deg, the force being transmitted thru its siderod is the horizontal component of the force tangent to the arc at the crankpin, or F x cos 10 deg. As the angle increases, the horizontal component decreases since cosine goes from 1 to 0 as the angle goes from 0 deg to 90 deg. Thus where the engineer's side is exerting minimal but increasing force, the fireman's side is exerting maximum but decreasing force. From 9 to 12, use sine, from 12 to 3 use cosine, from 3 to 6 use sine, from 6 to 9 use cosine. And vice versa. The result, work is being done, and everyone is happy: the Company, the RFE, and the family physicist since all the torque is being transferred. Now consider the situation where there is no quartering; i. e., on both sides the Driving wheels (and the Driven wheels) have their crankpins at the 9 o'clock position. As torque is applied to accomplish rotation, the horizontal component applied to both siderods is F x sin 0 deg, and there is no rotation of the Driven wheels, locking up the system. Not everyone is happy; no work is being done. The RFE is raising Cain with the roundhouse foreman. However, the family physicist is happy since, as electricity is applied to the motor without rotation, the temperature is increasing, the stench becomes terrible, and smoke is beginning to appear. The Second Law of Thermodynamics has again been proven true. Quartering is required in a system which has siderod driven wheels regardless of the means of providing driving torque, and to achieve the periodic compensating forces discribed above, it must be 90 deg (or close to it). And 90 deg is one quarter of 360 deg, which is, after all, why it is called "quartering". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron & Marilyn" Subject: Re: [PRR] Conventions Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:27:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Just thinking back to my Pennsy days, especially while based in Buffalo, > there were two cities that I always enjoyed visiting, Olean, NY and Oil > City. They > were bigg PRR locations then. I don't know what, if anything, remains of > the > PRR at either location. > > Regards, > > Marty Oil City is just a lonely outpost on Norfolk Southern. The big Pennzoil refinery is gone as are most of the supporting industries. NS comes into town a few times a week from Meadville to deliver cars to the OC&T and the few remaining industries. The wye bridge is still there but the roundhouse and Bridge Tower are long gone and the yard sits empty. Other than the OC&T operation, there isn't much left of the PRR in that neck of the woods. Ron Mele ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:58:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. So, does anyone have a photo confirming their existence, or was NJ International also following Walthers' generic (and probably wrong) instructions when they drew their plan? Did any D78s ever have an AC duct on the roof? I'd like to be sure before I start rebuilding these old Walthers cars. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 15:58:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR D78 A/C Many years ago I built two Walthers PRR D78 diners. I applied air conditioning ducts to the roof, probably in accordance with Walthers' generic instructions at that time. I have since heard that the D78s never had the AC roof ducts installed, but the diagram in NJ International's book on PRR heavyweights shows them. So, does anyone have a photo confirming their existence, or was NJ International also following Walthers' generic (and probably wrong) instructions when they drew their plan? Did any D78s ever have an AC duct on the roof? I'd like to be sure before I start rebuilding these old Walthers cars. regards, Andy Miller ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] In the market for an E-unit? Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:27:42 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Came across this tonight while surfing. FWIW the same=20 dealer has a Brook Series sleeper for sale too. http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/locomotive/index.html Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA www.mountvernonshops.com Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 10:53:57 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] Re: In the market for an E-unit? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John Frantz wrote: > Came across this tonight while surfing. FWIW the same > dealer has a Brook Series sleeper for sale too. > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/locomotive/index.html As info, the first four E units on that page are in storage in Minerva, Ohio, on the Ohi-Rail. I wasn't aware that they are for sale. Reportedly, their owner lives somewhere around Chicagoland, but once every couple of years he has Ohi-Rail fire them up and run them around a little bit. They used the two ex-PRR ones a few years ago. From what I understand, they need new sets of batteries, which is why they haven't turned a wheel in a little while. Otherwise, with good batteries, the ex-PRR ones could be started up and put in service, as they're in pretty good condition. Wonder if Bennett and Eric need another project? :) -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <8FC78CB9-2AD7-11D9-A306-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] DGLE Wall Paint Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:55:30 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Several people have mentioned that they've been able to get paint matches for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel via color drift cards and the computers at True Value hardware stores... with Benjamin Moore paints. (The Home Depot computers think it is black!) Finally got a chance to get to a True Value... only to find out that when they remodeled they got rid of the computer! Those of you who got the Benjamin Moore mix... if you still have a can handy, would you please check and see if they put the formula on a label on the can? I would be very grateful if you could let me know what it is -- as well as what "base" paint they used -- as they can make the mix without the computer. They just need the formula. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:43:32 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com --On Friday, October 29, 2004 22:15 -0400 parkvarieties@provide.net wrote: > The decal sheet with the Walthers 12-1's only has 16 Pennsy names - not > 32 as I originally reported (told you it was a quick look). All of the > Pennsy names provided are for ice A/C cars. Did Pennsy have any 12-1 > cars with electro-mechanical A/C? Coupla observations: First, Pennsy didn't "have" any 12-1 Pullmans until Pullman was forced to divest itself of ownership. Second, with respect to the type of A/C on Pullmans in Pennsy livery in service on Pennsy lines, when Pullman decided to upgrade its sleeping car fleet in the mid-1930s, Tom Madden's review article on Branchline's 12-1 Pullman kits (Oct 2005, Railmodel Journal), says Pullman's standard was the electro/mechanical configuration (same as comes with the Walthers RTR cars). But Madden goes on to say Pennsy "preferred" Ice A/C. My sketchy research library doesn't have anything in it that would allow me to say to the purist, "never say never." Bottom line: if you're looking for a "typical" 12-1 in PRR service ca. 1935 - 1960's, the Walthers offering is close enough for most, but not totally correct for the car names it supplies in its packages. The decision to do this in an RTR format is understandable, but unfortunate. That said, I bought one ... it's a far cry better than my 1968 Rivarossi James Logan! And I'm lazy enough in this sector of the hobby in the context of my overall interests not to care about the difference in undercarriage details, which probably is why I went with an RTR offering in the first place. I'll just exchange knowing glances with the 0.01% of visitors who know better. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 21:52:59 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com By way of followup to my previous post on this subject, see http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_Sleeper_Car.htm According to this website a total of eight (a TINY minority) hvy wt 12-1 Pullman sleepers of Plan 3410 had Mechanical/Brine A/C when sold to PRR between 1945 and 1948. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:08:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > For Bill, Tom, Bruce and anyone else still holding on. For everyone else, > don't fuss, just use the DELETE button. > > We seem to be nibbling around the edges of this. Maybe--hopefully--this, > together with Bill's "lab exercise", will shed some light we can > all see. Steve, As much as I respect and admire your knowledge of PRR steam, I'll have to continue to disagree here. Me emailer at home won't let me use your message in this reply, so I'll try this without quoting you. The fatal flaw in your analysis is that you only evaluate the horizontal component of the force vector. As I hope you will agree, the force produced by a gear driven drive wheel at the pin (no rod) is of constant magnitude and tangential to the wheel that that point. As the wheel rotates, the horizontal AND vertical components of the force vector vary inversely. When the wheel is at 12:00 or 6:00 the horizontal compontent is equal to the entire force vector, and when the wheel is at 3:00 or 9:00, the VERTICAL component is equal to the entire force vector. Now add the rod and second axle. The rod is constrained. It is not capable of any other path of motion that the constrained one. Granted, wear on the pin/rod bearing, and wheel bearings will alter this slightly thus I'm willing to concede that quartering might have helped when bearings were worn. The rod translates circular motion to circular motion. There is no translation to linear motion involved. Any fixed point on the rod describes a CIRCLE (if the locomotive is on rollers). Because the rod behaves in this manner, it responds to both the vertical and horizontal components of the force vector, and therefor see a continuous force vector, tangential to the wheel, no matter the point of rotation. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:40:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: Driver balancing and quartering From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill, > I think some of the analysis is flawed > so I will endeavor to impose my views, but back them up with an experiment > that so far has gone un-challenged on the other list. Sorry, but I do have a real job besides trying to teach recalcitrant PRR listmembers physics. That, and after Tom saw the light, I figured the subject was dead. >Also, frankly, I kind of > enjoy playing the martyr role, creating chaos, making a scene and > generally acting immaturely. That's OK, I enjoy playing the professor... Your position is based on a flawed assumption which leads you to your incorrect conclusion. You are completely ignoring the vertical component of the force vector, and you do not appear to acknowledge the basic intial condition that force produced by the pin is uniform in magnitude and always tangent to the wheel at that point. If you don't agree with that, try a google search on "Circular motion". If you still don't get it, talk to a physicist or engineer. > THE CHALLENGE! LET'S SETTLE THIS!!!! > > Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project > loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too > embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. > Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive > input on the S2. Sorry, you cannot model this with an old brass model. Your issues would more likely relate to quartering, and rod length. The margin of error in models is at least as great as that in the prototype, yet the overall lengths are orders of magnitude smaller vastly magnifying the defects. Although, it does pose interesting questions about how effective rods are at transmitting force to additional wheels in our models... maybe those 4-8-2s are really only pushing with 2 wheels half the time? Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:02:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: You addressed your last post to Steve so I'll be very brief. I think that you made a wrong assumption. You assume that the vertical force component is important. It is not. A siderod can transmit force ONLY in the horizontal direction. Therefore, it is only this horizontal component of the force vector that matters as far as the driven (as opposed to the geared driver) driver is concerned. If you look at the magnitude of the horizontal force component only, you will see that you can calculate it's value by multiplying the force by the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angle. The crank angle is defined as zero when the siderod is at 6:00 position or "rods down". Please consider taking a few minutes and running the simple experiment I have proposed in several posts. It take us out of "mind experiments" and into the real world. Einstein had to do mind experiments because technology was not there to do real experiments. I ran my real experiment on my workbench with scraps. Bill Box #366 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:10:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/30/2004 9:46:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: Bottom line: if you're looking for a "typical" 12-1 in PRR service ca. 1935 - 1960's, the Walthers offering is close enough for most, but not totally correct for the car names it supplies in its packages. The decision to do this in an RTR format is understandable, but unfortunate. That said, I bought one ... it's a far cry better than my 1968 Rivarossi James Logan! And I'm lazy enough in this sector of the hobby in the context of my overall interests not to care about the difference in undercarriage details, which probably is why I went with an RTR offering in the first place. I'll just exchange knowing glances with the 0.01% of visitors who know better. If you want to take the time to build a kit, the Branchline cars have the correct A/C for the PRR cars. Only problem is they print the name of the car on the sides so you are limited to those names they are making. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:26:58 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Old roundhouse at Columbus, Indiana In a message dated 10/18/04 1:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dchaney1@mindspring.com writes: > Rick, A few of the retired PRR guys in the Columbus, Indiana area are > trying to get some info on the old roundhouse there, specifically > when it was built. They want to get a historical marker put there. > Any suggestions as to where other than the courthouse they might > look. Any help would be appreciated by them, specifically R.L. > Brown, retired conductor (hired on Jan.,1941). Thanks, Dave Chaney > Dave, Unfortunately, I'm not even sure where the roundhouse was -- remember, I moved to the area in 1972, roughly the time that all Columbus ops were moved to the "new" yard northwest of town, remaining "old" buildings were demolished (notably the Panhandle freight house, obviously a very old brick design), and a new mall was constructed. Columbus' relocation history has to be much more tortured than that, however. It happens that, of the few historical maps of Columbus I've uncovered/collected/copied, the track arrangements are different on each. Even a civic puff piece I picked up in the 70's doesn't look like today's track location -- Columbus Indiana keeps reinventing itself. I can only surmise from their alignments into town that, once upon a time, the five tracks into town (2 Louisville main, 2 PRR branches, 1 NYC branch) came together at one point. But the terminus of all this was later reached by reroutings that took the 2 Pennsy branches out of the center of town; after that stage, the Madison Branch came in the south end of the pre-70s yard, and the Cambridge City/Rushville/Shelbyville Branch came in the north end of that yard. I still haven't discovered what the NYC did, although it must have been well-located to tap the Cummins engine plants on the east side of town. I keep hoping to find an historian familiar with the railroad story up there (68 miles north of Louisville). I'm currently too tied up with other, urgent projects to go up and investigate further. Maybe some of our brethren can field this question... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:26:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Old roundhouse at Columbus, Indiana X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 10/18/04 1:27:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dchaney1@mindspring.com writes: > Rick, A few of the retired PRR guys in the Columbus, Indiana area are > trying to get some info on the old roundhouse there, specifically > when it was built. They want to get a historical marker put there. > Any suggestions as to where other than the courthouse they might > look. Any help would be appreciated by them, specifically R.L. > Brown, retired conductor (hired on Jan.,1941). Thanks, Dave Chaney > Dave, Unfortunately, I'm not even sure where the roundhouse was -- remember, I moved to the area in 1972, roughly the time that all Columbus ops were moved to the "new" yard northwest of town, remaining "old" buildings were demolished (notably the Panhandle freight house, obviously a very old brick design), and a new mall was constructed. Columbus' relocation history has to be much more tortured than that, however. It happens that, of the few historical maps of Columbus I've uncovered/collected/copied, the track arrangements are different on each. Even a civic puff piece I picked up in the 70's doesn't look like today's track location -- Columbus Indiana keeps reinventing itself. I can only surmise from their alignments into town that, once upon a time, the five tracks into town (2 Louisville main, 2 PRR branches, 1 NYC branch) came together at one point. But the terminus of all this was later reached by reroutings that took the 2 Pennsy branches out of the center of town; after that stage, the Madison Branch came in the south end of the pre-70s yard, and the Cambridge City/Rushville/Shelbyville Branch came in the north end of that yard. I still haven't discovered what the NYC did, although it must have been well-located to tap the Cummins engine plants on the east side of town. I keep hoping to find an historian familiar with the railroad story up there (68 miles north of Louisville). I'm currently too tied up with other, urgent projects to go up and investigate further. Maybe some of our brethren can field this question... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:33:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: I can't let you off that lightly. In the challenge I state that I connected a siderod between two adjacent drivers. All other rods were removed from that side as well as ALL the rods from the other side. In other words, there was one siderod connecting two driver pairs - that's it. It can't get simpler. Regarding scaling factors. I work in an industry where we are quite familiar with scaling problems due to the laws of physics and this is not one of them. The experiment challenge stands. Bruce, I do need you opinion on this. Assume that the crank angle is 90.1 degrees (just passed 9:00). The siderod is actually tilted up a little bit. Wouldn't the rod try to push the connected driver backwards? Bill Box #366 > THE CHALLENGE! LET'S SETTLE THIS!!!! > > Desperate times call for desperate measures. I just took an old project > loco - a K2sb in O scale, but, I'd rather not talk about it, too > embarrassing - and jury rigged a brass siderod to two drivers on one side. > Then I turned the axle with my fingers. This simulates the gear drive > input on the S2. Sorry, you cannot model this with an old brass model. Your issues would more likely relate to quartering, and rod length. The margin of error in models is at least as great as that in the prototype, yet the overall lengths are orders of magnitude smaller vastly magnifying the defects. Although, it does pose interesting questions about how effective rods are at transmitting force to additional wheels in our models... maybe those 4-8-2s are really only pushing with 2 wheels half the time? Bill Box #366 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 00:15:45 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bruce--Great to hear from you. Comments inserted....... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 10:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 > > For Bill, Tom, Bruce and anyone else still holding on. For everyone else, > > don't fuss, just use the DELETE button. > > > > We seem to be nibbling around the edges of this. Maybe--hopefully--this, > > together with Bill's "lab exercise", will shed some light we can > > all see. > > Steve, > > As much as I respect and admire your knowledge of PRR steam, I'll have = to > continue to disagree here. Me emailer at home won't let me use your > message in this reply, so I'll try this without quoting you. > > The fatal flaw in your analysis is that you only evaluate the = horizontal > component of the force vector. As I hope you will agree, the force > produced by a gear driven drive wheel at the pin (no rod) is of = constant > magnitude and tangential to the wheel that that point. As the wheel > rotates, the horizontal AND vertical components of the force vector = vary > inversely. When the wheel is at 12:00 or 6:00 the horizontal = compontent > is equal to the entire force vector, and when the wheel is at 3:00 or > 9:00, the VERTICAL component is equal to the entire force vector. > Absolutely agree. > > Now add the rod and second axle. The rod is constrained. It is not > capable of any other path of motion that the constrained one. = Granted, > wear on the pin/rod bearing, and wheel bearings will alter this = slightly > thus I'm willing to concede that quartering might have helped when > bearings were worn. The rod translates circular motion to circular > motion. There is no translation to linear motion involved. Any fixed > point on the rod describes a CIRCLE (if the locomotive is on rollers). > Because the rod behaves in this manner, it responds to both the = vertical > and horizontal components of the force vector, and therefor see a > continuous force vector, tangential to the wheel, no matter the point = of > rotation. > Disregard wear. The rod does in fact follow a path of circular motion, = and it translates circular motion to circular motion. And since we are not considering the main rods, no conversion from/to linear motion. We have no disagreement at all concerning the MOTION of the siderod. = The MOTION of course is a result of the cycling horizontal and vertical components as you have described. However, the function of the rod is = to transfer the point of application of only the horizontal component of = FORCE from the driving crankpin to the second wheel's crankpin. It is simply = a moving pinned member bearing tension or compression forces with no = bending moment. Now we are having fun........ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:04:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to the Wayner 1950 list of Pullman cars, the number of mechanical/brine tank 12-1's had increased to 10 and there is one electro-mech car listed; Stephia. Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add > By way of followup to my previous post on this subject, see > > http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_Sleeper_Car.htm > > According to this website a total of eight (a TINY minority) hvy wt 12-1 > Pullman sleepers of Plan 3410 had Mechanical/Brine A/C when sold to PRR > between 1945 and 1948. > > 'best, > Vagel Keller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 04:20:54 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 From: Subject: [PRR] Re:Driver balancing and quartering 101 Cc: PRR-Talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers PRR12-1's - Add Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 07:28:11 -0500 To: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 30, 2004, at 9:43 PM, Vagel C. Keller, Jr. wrote: > Second, with respect to the type of A/C on Pullmans in Pennsy livery > in service on Pennsy lines, when Pullman decided to upgrade its > sleeping car fleet in the mid-1930s, Tom Madden's review article on > Branchline's 12-1 Pullman kits (Oct 2005, Railmodel Journal), says > Pullman's standard was the electro/mechanical configuration (same as > comes with the Walthers RTR cars). But Madden goes on to say Pennsy > "preferred" Ice A/C. My sketchy research library doesn't have > anything in it that would allow me to say to the purist, "never say > never." > > Bottom line: if you're looking for a "typical" 12-1 in PRR service > ca. 1935 - 1960's, the Walthers offering is close enough for most, but > not totally correct for the car names it supplies in its packages. > The decision to do this in an RTR format is understandable, but > unfortunate. That said, I bought one ... it's a far cry better than my > 1968 Rivarossi James Logan! And I'm lazy enough in this sector of the > hobby in the context of my overall interests not to care about the > difference in undercarriage details, which probably is why I went with > an RTR offering in the first place. I'll just exchange knowing > glances with the 0.01% of visitors who know better. The Branchline 12-1's feature ice a/c. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] BLI K-4's Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:05:57 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Has anyone been able to confirm where the new BLI K-4's are being produced? China or Korea? Thanks to all for your response. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:30:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Chris: I don't disagree with Bruce that the force being transmitted by the gears to the axle of the S2 driver is constant. It is, absolutely. Further, I agree that the force at the crank pin is constant. It is, absolutely. I disagree ( I think this is Bruce's position ) that the force available to be transmitted along the horizontal plane of the siderod to the other driver ( not driven by a gear ) is either 1) constant or 2) varying but never zero. In either case, negating the need for quartering. I would like to sum up my position to clarify any confusion: 1. Force applied by the crank pin to the siderod is a function of the cosine of the crank angle where 0 degrees is rods down. That means the force is at its maximum at a crank angle of 0 and 180 degrees and the force is ZERO at a crank angle of 90 and 270 degrees 2. Two driver pairs, connected by one siderod (the other side has no siderod) will stall at 9:00 and 3:00 unless the "flywheel" effect allows the drivers to coast through those positions. The force available for the siderod to transfer at 9:00 and 3:00 is ZERO 3. Item 2 above is independent of how the force is applied 4. Two driver pairs connected by TWO siderods (one each side) that have drivers with identical crank angles, act like item 2 5. Two siderods with different crank angles must be used for there to be a no stall condition. The force can be graphed (even calculated) by graphing the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angles of the two siderods displaced by their difference in crank angles. If you do this, you will see that while quartering is not the only solution, it does give the smoothest force vs. crank angle curve available - a very good thing, indeed. You will also see that the only angles that will not work under any circumstances are ... ready? ... 0 and 180 degrees displacement. Maybe I have Bruce's position wrong. I have stated mine a number of times in various posts to make it crystal clear. In the interest of list harmony, I am thinking of not posting anymore on this subject. All interested parties are fine, honorable men who hold passionate views and are unlikely to be swayed by further arguments. It's clear that most of the group couldn't give a plugged nickel. I can't blame them. I have to get back to building my L2s in 1/32 scale. This intellectual stuff is taking it's toll on an almost atrophied part of my brain. I would ask you, though, to comment on my analysis sense you have, at least, done a free body diagram before. For you nasty of mind, a free body diagram has nothing to do with body painting at a '60s love in. Cheez! Bill Box #366 PS Chris: Please, please comment and thanks for the chance for me to use "plugged nickel" . No new posts, no new words BB Chris wrote: Hi yall- I have followed this because I thought it was interesting, stimulating and humorous. (I have not had to make a free body diagram since 1970 while at Penn State) I have to agree with Steve that the force applied to the side rod is axial within the siderod, varying between tension and compression depending on the wheel position because it is a link on pin (no bending moment as Steve said) I also have to agree with Bruce that because the S2 wheel is gear driven that the driving force on the wheel and the tangential forces on both the rail and the crank pin will be constant because forces transmitted thru an involute gear remain constant (vs a reciprocating piston drive which are not) I wish I knew 34 years ago that this stuff would have an application that was fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J W Box" Subject: [PRR] Driver balancing and quartering 101(longer than anyone Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:30:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <11952-3EA43264-511@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Chris: I don't disagree with Bruce that the force being transmitted by the gears to the axle of the S2 driver is constant. It is, absolutely. Further, I agree that the force at the crank pin is constant. It is, absolutely. I disagree ( I think this is Bruce's position ) that the force available to be transmitted along the horizontal plane of the siderod to the other driver ( not driven by a gear ) is either 1) constant or 2) varying but never zero. In either case, negating the need for quartering. I would like to sum up my position to clarify any confusion: 1. Force applied by the crank pin to the siderod is a function of the cosine of the crank angle where 0 degrees is rods down. That means the force is at its maximum at a crank angle of 0 and 180 degrees and the force is ZERO at a crank angle of 90 and 270 degrees 2. Two driver pairs, connected by one siderod (the other side has no siderod) will stall at 9:00 and 3:00 unless the "flywheel" effect allows the drivers to coast through those positions. The force available for the siderod to transfer at 9:00 and 3:00 is ZERO 3. Item 2 above is independent of how the force is applied 4. Two driver pairs connected by TWO siderods (one each side) that have drivers with identical crank angles, act like item 2 5. Two siderods with different crank angles must be used for there to be a no stall condition. The force can be graphed (even calculated) by graphing the absolute value of the cosine of the crank angles of the two siderods displaced by their difference in crank angles. If you do this, you will see that while quartering is not the only solution, it does give the smoothest force vs. crank angle curve available - a very good thing, indeed. You will also see that the only angles that will not work under any circumstances are ... ready? ... 0 and 180 degrees displacement. Maybe I have Bruce's position wrong. I have stated mine a number of times in various posts to make it crystal clear. In the interest of list harmony, I am thinking of not posting anymore on this subject. All interested parties are fine, honorable men who hold passionate views and are unlikely to be swayed by further arguments. It's clear that most of the group couldn't give a plugged nickel. I can't blame them. I have to get back to building my L2s in 1/32 scale. This intellectual stuff is taking it's toll on an almost atrophied part of my brain. I would ask you, though, to comment on my analysis sense you have, at least, done a free body diagram before. For you nasty of mind, a free body diagram has nothing to do with body painting at a '60s love in. Cheez! Bill Box #366 PS Chris: Please, please comment and thanks for the chance for me to use "plugged nickel" . No new posts, no new words BB Chris wrote: Hi yall- I have followed this because I thought it was interesting, stimulating and humorous. (I have not had to make a free body diagram since 1970 while at Penn State) I have to agree with Steve that the force applied to the side rod is axial within the siderod, varying between tension and compression depending on the wheel position because it is a link on pin (no bending moment as Steve said) I also have to agree with Bruce that because the S2 wheel is gear driven that the driving force on the wheel and the tangential forces on both the rail and the crank pin will be constant because forces transmitted thru an involute gear remain constant (vs a reciprocating piston drive which are not) I wish I knew 34 years ago that this stuff would have an application that was fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:19:04 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Ltd.Diners Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, According to my research, the following seems accurate. Any corrections or additions would be appreciated. Pre-1938 BL- D70 70' Diners #4420 & 4423 built by ACS in 1910. 1938 BL - D70bR, #4420 & 4423. These were 70' Diner-Lounge-Arched Roof, built by ACS in 1910. Converted from D70 to D70bR,4/38. 1939 BL- D82bR, #4505 & 4506. 85' Diners, built by Budd in1939, painted FOM over St.St.(Flute sides). 1949-1954 BL- D85cR 85' Diner Twin, #4618, 4620, 4622 Budd -St.St.(Slab) D85dR 85' Kitchen-Domitory Twin #4619, 4621, 4623 Budd PRR-St.St.(Slab) Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:10:20 -0800 (PST) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Steam era-buses X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have started a project this week, the Bachmann city scenes Bus station, and now I am looking for steam era buses for the station. Has anyone seen any steam era HO scale buses lately? I am looking for the ones from American Precision Models. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Knorek-Onysko" Subject: [PRR] CC&IC question Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 08:41:35 -0300 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello to all- I got this request from a woman in CA: "What rail line would have transported my grandfather from Urbana, Ohio to Morgan Park, Illinois between 1884 and 1888? He was attending Baptist Union Theological Seminary during the week and preaching at the Baptist Church in Urbana on Sundays." Initial queries have found the CC&IC to be the carrier that most likely took him to/from Chicago. My questions are: What trains did he take? Transfers? Stations? ***Is there an online map of this route?*** Roger Rassche writes: "Baptist Union Theological Seminary is what we know as the University of Chicago now, so I guess we need to connect to IC somewhere on the South Side." I've gone to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/colchiindiana.html and got the skinny on the CC&IC (thanks ton & Jerry!), but I still have lots of questions. Thank you! Jeff Knorek-Onysko Bear River, Nova Scotia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Structure Roof Material Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:11:22 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, Basically, it's fancy tarpaper impregnated with rubbery tar and roofing granules. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: [PRR] Structure Roof Material > List, > > Reference Jeff Scherb's book Trackside On the Pennsylvania, Standard Plans > of > the Standard Railroad of the World, Structures, Bridges, Signals & Signs, > or > other source. On Page 8, the plans Passenger Shelter 59328, Design B, is > the > following: 7/8 TG&V jointed sheathering covered with Red or Green > "Ruberoid" > or Red "Paroid" roofing. > > Can anyone tell me what "Ruberoid" and "Paroid" is? > > > BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent > Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) > A Penn Family Line > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 12:15:12 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Offerings Cc: "PRR-TALK" , From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::[PRR] (PRR) F3 & F7 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:35:41 -0500 To: "Sam Vastano" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 5, 2004, at 2:15 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > I consider myself a true novice when it concerns me and the PRR > diesels. After reading over half of the latest Keystone it has > sparked my interest about the F3's & the F7's and who make the most > accurate model in HO scale? I am pretty cheap so if I can get one > that I might have to add a few details to rather than paying 200.00 > plus for one that is exact I would probably go for the less expensive > one and do my own details. I thought this was discussed some time ago > but I am lazy and hate looking through the archives... Sam, I believe that the Highliners undec kit gives you the most options. These are basically the same castings used for the Athearn Genesis units. This shell can go on either the Athearn or Stewart drives (and perhaps the IM drive?). It is not in stock right now at Walthers but it is listed as Walthers Part # 328-1001, $49.95. I'm sure if you look around you can find some kits. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 14:33:51 +0000 >From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >Subject: [PRR] BLI K4 pics now up >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: carolynriggs@ij.net (TCJ Riggs), prr-talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk LIST) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Car Color--1950s Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:20:56 -0500 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 7, 2004, at 9:59 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Tom: > > Check the latest issue of the Keystone for the Color Drift cards > available from the PRRT&HS. FCC post 1953 was one of the cards > available. I have no idea if it is still in stock. The FCC drift card reproduced by the PRRT&HS is one of the cards with which folks have taken issue. Chuck Blardone described the process of creating these cards and it wasn't pretty. At the time, a set of drift cards could not be borrowed from any PRRT&HS members, so one was borrowed from the NYCHS. These cards had suffered from serious oxidation in some cases. In addition, as Chuck related to the PRRT&HS Paint Committee in May, he made the color matches by eye, sitting outside in the shade (neutral lighting), because that was the best technology available at the time. These sets ARE a great reference, but recognize that they are neither "official drift cards" nor are they absolutely accurate with respect to color. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 20:07:35 -0500 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR P70 Project getting underway X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey Bruce! Bruce Smith wrote: > Hi Folks, > > BTW, my apologies to those of you receive multiple copies of this post > - I feel your pain! I'll be getting at least 5 copies of this message > %^) > I have no pain. I prefer getting 5 copies rather than none. The info on PRR-Talk is immensely satisfying to read. The collective knowledge is HUGE! And you want me to join another PRR group? I belong to too many now. I can't keep up with all the messages. However, as stated about multiples, the "delete" button is very easy to hit/click. Morgan Bilbo, Ferroequinologist, SPF, PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:04:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRRPro] P70 roof ends was Arch Roof Heavyweights From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 8, 2004, at 09:56 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > I wasn't sure how to describe the hybrid ends on modernized P70s (K, > GS, > etc), but Bob has done as good a job as any. They are neither a > heavyweight > end which a curve when viewed from the top, not flush, as real > streamlined > cars have. The best drawing I could quickly find is the one for > postwar > P70GS on Rob Schoenberg's site: > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif > PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p70gs_after41.gif&sel > =coa&sz=sm&fr> &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= Great opportunity here for an N scale manufacturer to take the American Limited core kit and cut down the roof and floor, fix the ends of the roof appropriately, and create new resin parts. Would be applicable to P70k, P70gs, PLC70, and at last the four diners that I mentioned yesterday. If you've got the capability to do this, but don't want to market it, talk to me off-list, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 09:35:59 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Sound Systems Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dominic: Most people do run their sound systems WAY too loud... I personally have sound in at least 1/2 of my locomotives and have the volume levels turned down so they are not overpowering... This is easy to do on all sound decoders I am aware of. At a proper level, I find sound to add something to the operation of a layout. Especially when crews correctly (prototypically) use the bell, whistle, etc. My 2 cents worth... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:38:45 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] block limit signs Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all: Can anybody tell me where I can find a picture of a circa mid-1950's PRR block limit sign (or have a .JPG they can send off-list)? I'm looking for one as described in S-464-C and S-464-G on Rob's PRR site which is a post with block name and a red and yellow light... These 2 documents describe them well, but I'd like to see a picture. I did find a 1968 and 2001 (LIRR) picture on the web, but neither is exactly what is described in these documents. I am asking for modeling purposes. Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: MLiebeskin@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Whistle signals Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:44:42 -0400 To: PKMac101@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 10, 2004, at 11:14 AM, PKMac101@aol.com wrote: > Do you have a 1956 Book of Rules? Page 19 & 20 give > the all > the whistle signals. It may be listed somewhere in Jerrys site of > KEYSTONE > CROSSINGS,but I could not find it. Document section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Frazer Branch Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:50:14 -0500 To: Alex Charyna X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 11, 2004, at 7:35 PM, Alex Charyna wrote: > We came across these two cement boxes, with tracks stuck vertically in > them. > > http://charyna.homeunix.com/PRR/SD/frazermystery.html > > Does anyone have any idea what they are? > > It's located where a spur would have come off on one side, and a wye > on the other. But I can't imagine it's a signal mast or anything like > that. A tell-tale mast? (although why 2 is a question) Any clearance issues around, like an overpass? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:13:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Postwar Mon Division passenger service Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Society's Web Page Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:01:12 -0400 To: "Paul & Dot" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 12, 2004, at 7:51 PM, Paul & Dot wrote: > I've been trying to access the society's web page but I keep getting > site not found. Is the society's web still not working? Any idea of > when it will be fixed? It's been down for several weeks now. Not only is the web site gone, but the DNS records are as well. Society president reported it was supposed to be fixed by this past weekend but it wasn't. Keystone Crossings has links to the eStore and Discussion Web which still work... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrths/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:24:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR modules From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, October 14, 2004, at 09:12 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > So I am about to begin on probably the last big PRR layout I will > build and want to make modules so I can move it in 10-12 years when I > retire. Plan to use foam with a 1 x 4 frame and had this thought that > either 6' in length or 9' would allow me to utilize 3' flex track in > HO and have the rail joints line up perfectly with the module edges. > That seems to make more sense than the standard 4' or 8' length. Any > thoughts or suggestions? Those rail joints are only going to be flush at the ends if you keep your track exactly straight. I suspect you'll want some curves/wave to the main line. A straight main line all the way around will look "toyish". Nothing wrong with modules, but unless you plan to interface with a club with modular requirements, I'd let the track flow anywhere on the modules. But you won't have flush ends of rail then. Good luck! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:09:36 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Plates Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Web Page Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:40:24 -0400 To: Philip Taylor X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:24 PM, Philip Taylor wrote: > I have several of the pages of the society stored in cache including > the main page, national page, TKM page and August isssue of the TKM in > html I have all of the TKM's in PDF. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:36:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR spot identification system - 1950-s X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Joe, Looking in the 1945 CT1000,page 184 shows W to include all points served in the Williamsport yd. There are no individual reporting marks for each customer. I don't know exactly how the numbers and letters were used for shipping cars but it appears that the reporting marks or numbers got the car to the yard or setoff point and then the local shifting crew (knowing the yd or local shifting area), using a shift list from the yardmaster, would spot the car on the customers sdg,company delivery or public delivery track so the items shipped could be unloaded. There are some people out there that can better explain its use but I don't think you will find anything for individual spot IDs. Pat McKinney Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandice Service Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:26:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff, The cars marked "Merchandise Service" were used to transport Less Than Carload (LCL) freight between freight houses and were generally used on line. PRR had special trains between major yards that handled LCL and Freight Forwarder traffic and were designated LCL-#. Not all LCL freight moved in "Merchandise Service" cars, but they were used almost entirely to handle LCL freight. Since LCL was often interchanged in "ferry cars" moving in switching service between freight houses of each railroad at junction points, these cars rarely if ever left the PRR. LCL traffic from and to smaller cities and towns moved in regular freights, and usually in regular boxcars, too. After PRR dropped LCL in 1964-5, the cars were used in general service until repainted. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Smith" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Merchandice Service > Would someone please tell me what the Merchandise Slogan stood for? Where > the cars that carried this banner used in special trains or could they be > found on any train? > > Thanks, > > > Jeff Smith > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 10:38 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the > forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is > being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be > announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's > their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or > is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell I've just been privately notified that they've been sold to another well-known and Pennsy-friendly manufacturer! I'm sure the announcement will be made public VERY SOON. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart Hobbies rumor From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, October 19, 2004, at 10:38 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > There are three or four postings on the Trains.com web site in the > forums regarding the status of Stewart Hobbies. They range from it is > being shut down through it is being sold and the new owner will be > announced today at 10:00 AM EDT. There is another posting that say's > their web site was hacked. Has anybody heard anything deifnitive or > is this all a hoax? Thank you, Norm Bell I've just been privately notified that they've been sold to another well-known and Pennsy-friendly manufacturer! I'm sure the announcement will be made public VERY SOON. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:01:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I browsed this book at Des Plaines Hobbies and will buy it some payday. Best shot to me is the one of an E-unit running backwards pulling a local freight. Talk about lack of visibility! Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:13 AM Subject: [PRR] "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Volume Four" Public Service Announcement... "Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial Vol. 4: Louisville to Washington, D.C." by David Sweetland. "This, the most recent volume in the color pictorial series, showcases the P Company's operations between Louisville and Washington D.C. from the 1950's up to the Penn Central merger. You'll see the last vestiges of the PRR's proud steam fleet, a plethora of first and second generation diesel models, GG-1 and E44 electrics, and more. You even get a bonus chapter that features a complete look at Alco and Baldwin road switchers used by the PRR. 128 pages, 290 color photos, 8½"x 11", hardcover. SRP $59.95." ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] PA numbers .... Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:27:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A units: 5750A - 5759A B units: 5750B - 5758B even numbers only Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael hmel" To: "PRR-Talk list" Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: [PRR] PA numbers .... Hello , I was wondering if anyone could suggest a website with pic's of PRR PA's . I'm repainting a set ( ABA ) of Willaims PA's and although I have the Microscale diagrams I wanted to check on the road numbers assigned . Thanks , Mike Hmel Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net E-bay : iron*mah ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 08:20:26 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill and Sam:=20 The Pennsy never owned SD-24's. However, they may have tested a = demonstrator of a SD-24. It would be in EMD markings though. The Pennsy did test GP-20's and SD-40X's but all were painted in EMD. = Other demonstators that were caught on film on the Pennsy include = RS-27's and C-628's, both of which they ordered. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sam Vastano=20 To: 'Bill Daniels'=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Thank Bill, I didn't think they had them but I was not positive... Sam V -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels [mailto:billinsf@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:33 AM To: svastano@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) SD 24??? Sam... AS they say the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. But the answer to yours is simply no. The Pennsy never bought the SD24. Don't believe everything that IHC (or other manufacturers) say.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: mirzaking@peoplepc.com, PRR-talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:12:38 -0500 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rob, Mirza, The S2, having no reciprocating machinery had what were called "perfectly balanced" drivers, where the only force needing balancing was the rod that connected the drivers. In addition, the geared nature of the direct drive removed any additional need for quartering. Thus, it is my understanding that the S2 was not quartered. In a discussion just a few weeks ago, a photo series was cited that does seem to confirm this. So, barring evidence to the contrary, go with no quartering (and of course, a left hand lead on all your other PRR steamers) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Oct 25, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Got this e-mail from my website.. Can anyone help Mirza out? I'm > guessing > they'd be quartered but don't really know... Please make sure you > include > mirza in any replies... > > Rob > http://prr.railfan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mirza Kolakovic [mailto:mirzaking@peoplepc.com] > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:22 PM > To: robs@railfan.net > Subject: Question about S2 #6200 locomotive > > > Hi Rob, > > I need your help with facts on S2 #6200 locomotive. I am trying to > find out > if drive wheels on both sides were in faze or shifted quarter of a > turn? I > have Lionel locomotive 2020 that I took apart for cleaning. Before I > put it > together I want to know how originally wheels were placed. > My friend is telling me that true steamers (with cylinders) had > quarter of a > turn difference between wheels on each side but this being a turbine > locomotive this was not the case. In other words, when lefts side > wheels are > at TDC - right side wheels are also at TDC. > Is this right? > > I tried searching for pictures of both sides taken at the same time on > the > same S2 but no success. Could you help me with this. Its has been > bothering > me a lot for some reason. > > Thanks. > Mirza Kolakovic > Detroit, MI > USA > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:04:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Steve, Train leaves Harrisburg at 8:30 or so; returns @ 4:30, so I'd guess around half-time, or long about 12:30. To be safe I'd get there by 11:00 or so - lots of action, although Sat. not so much and it's all about the same on the mainline. Take a scanner and perhaps the dispatcher will give you some clues. As I remember, the NC from Perryville north is NS, so be sure to set freq for both. With today's super fast scanners, I just set mine to scan all RR freq's - goes through them all in 2-3 secs. As far as I know, I've not missed anything. I'll be on the train, so if you send me your cell phone #, I can keep you advised of our progress. Anyone know whether Bennett's new car, Little Juniata Rapids, will be along on the trip? Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Special on Sat. > Greetings to everyone, > By chance, does anyone know when the PRR E's with special will be going > through Perryville, MD on Sat? > Thank you! > Steve panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale PRR From: Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:33:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:14:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Scale Houses From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] SD9 Use Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:50:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The recent talk about SDs prompts this question. I am repainting and lettering two SD9s for the PRR from the 25 numbered 7600-7625. How would they have been used compared to the vastly greater number of GP9s? Tom Riggs ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:01:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Pullmans From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 09:37 AM, Park Varieties wrote: > Our initial shipment of Walthers 12-1 Pullmans arrived this morning > and included cars for Pennsy, Pullman pool and NYC. All cars have > electro-mechanical A/C and top equalized trucks. I know there was > some talk that the A/C system components would be railroad-specific > and installed by the buyer but such is not the case. The decal sheet > has 32 names for Pennsy cars - twice the number for any other railroad > or Pullman pool. > On a quick once-over the cars look very nice and the trucks roll well > but not great. It will remain to be seen if Pennsy modelers will buy > these cars and run them as-is or opt to change the A/C system to ice > or just stick with the Branchline cars. I've not seen the Walthers 12-1 yet, but the Branchline 12-1's came in earlier this week and they are every bit as beautiful as the previous 8-1-2's. They do have ice a/c and three car names (pre-painted) are offered. I have an 8-1-2 on the workbench right now and a 12-1 will follow. (Yes, I am still a closet HO modeler!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Conventions Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:46:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <12f.4ef94e6a.2eb3e1cc@aol.com> X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.1.0, Antispam-Data: 2004.10.29.1 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__CT 0, __CTE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The convention was in Altoona at least twice in the 90's... Of course it's been at Camp Hill many more! Some other recent locations that I can remember... Cincinnatti Philly Wilmington Baltimore Pittsburgh Camp Hill ... many times! Lancaster (before my time) Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cprrboss@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Conventions Hello Folks, I haven't been a member for too long so please forgive me if there's something I'm not aware of concerning conventions. Here's my question, why hasn't anybody mentioned Altoona? I was convention chairman for the MER hosted NMRA three region convention in Altoona in October 2000. We had a great convention. There is a lot to do in the Altoona/Greater Altoona area for "non-rails" and I won't even mention what to do for us SPF's. I would think that the Museum staff would welcome us and I know the Chamber of Commerce would. Local transportation was great (I chartered the local bus company to run shuttles and back and forth to the Museum as well as a trip to Johnstown. There is adequate AMTRAK service as well excellent road network to the area. Since 2000, a new convention center has opened that I know nothing about and of course there's always the old standby Ramada Inn that someone told me has been spruced up a bit. So, how come nothing has been mentioned about Altoona. Bob Martin York, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Thrust reversers Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:42:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com That's correct, but I didn't want to go into it since this thread was (is) about the PRR S2! Steve D. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: [PRR] Thrust reversers > In a message dated 10/29/04 1:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >> 2) There are actually two (2) turbines: the forward turbine (6900HP) &the >> reversing turbine (1500HP). Unlike turbines used in aircraft. They're not >> designed to fly in reverse! >> > > I'm not sure any turbines are designed to reverse. Aircraft turbines > don't > reverse. Their "thrust reversers" reroute the exhaust forward, giving > braking > thrust. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!