From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 00:13:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Western Maryland had some also. See top photo page 105 of Ball's Pennsylvania RR 1940's and 50's Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: "'Walter Prusick'" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers > N&W. Class H1, I believe. I have several Stewarts which I run in a N&W cut > with ECW H2a's. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Walter > Prusick > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:25 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers > > Guys, > > Did any of the railroads which interchanged with the Pennsy in the Western > PA area have a fishbelly hopper (ala Stewart Hobbies) on/in their roster? If > so which one/s and whom should I contact to get some information? I intended > to do a couple of GLca, until I got around to Mr. Teichmoeller's book. Close > (maybe) but no cigar. > > Thanks in advance, > Walt Prusick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 02:05:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walt writes: Guys, Did any of the railroads which interchanged with the Pennsy in the Western, PA area have a fishbelly hopper (ala Stewart Hobbies) on/in their roster? If so which one/s and whom should I contact to get some information? I intended to do a couple of GLca, until I got around to Mr. Teichmoeller's book. Close (maybe) but no cigar. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick Walt, The P&WV had cars similar to, but not exactly the same as the Stewart WM "fishbelly" hoppers. I have a photo of the gray P&WV cars with black lettering that were used in limestone service. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:40:29 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walt Prusick asked: "Did any of the railroads which interchanged with the Pennsy in the Western PA area have a fishbelly hopper (ala Stewart Hobbies) on/in their roster? If so which one/s and whom should I contact to get some information?" The Stewart model most closely matches WM 10001-10500, built in 1939. WM 10501-10800, 10801-12400, 12401-13400, 13401-14400 can also be modeled from this kit by modifying the model with a Duryea cushion underframe. The kit has ladders, which only matches the WM cars and 100 cars built in 1942 for the AC&Y. Fortunately, the ladders are separate parts, and if you replace the ladders with grab irons, you can model cars from the following roads: C&I D&H LV (C&O secondhand user - 1956) N&W (Class HL, NOT H-1 - modify end supports and add peaked ends) If you carefully remove the rivets, you can model welded cars for the following roads: CNJ/CRP (B&O secondhand user) RDG See Alan Mende's article in the June 1994 Railmodel Journal on modeling these cars. ACL and NS also had these cars. More information on all of these cars can be found on the pay side of the RPI website. http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Hoppers/95-2-Hoppers-fishbelly-side-types.asp "I intended to do a couple of GLca, until I got around to Mr. Teichmoeller's book. Close (maybe) but no cigar." Unless you've had a 12-pack of Guinness, not even close. Wrong number of ribs, side profile, ends, and the model is too large. In the end, you'd put in more work than you would have if you built a Westerfield GLCA. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:59:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Part 1 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond $ 95 PRR CT 1000E 5-1-45,Very Good cond. $35 PRR CT 1000C 5-1-45,Very Good Cond $85 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6 $20 PRR Altoona Shops & Yards,Shows shop layout & complete yd $25 PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a front view, a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8 tracks wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11 $25 PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to Slope, Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14 $25 PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & inclines, New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen. $9 PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper $1 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay $350.00 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60,very good cond. $21 PRR MW52(D) Unused,Excellent Cond $27 PRR C.E. 78 Manual for construction,unused, excellent cond. $27 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused $5 PRR Annual Report-1925 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945 $25 PRR Annual Report-1951 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle $45 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.9 4-27-47 $35 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.13 4-24-49 $35 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.3 9-28-52 $30 PRR Mid. Mid. Div No.6 4-25-54 $30 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.16, 4-29-51,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $30 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.4, 10-27-57,VG used cond,wG.O.'s $25 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.5, 4-27-58,VGused cond w/G.O.'s $25 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.8, 10-25-59,VG used cond,not issued $25 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.11,10-29-61,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.12,10-28-62, VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s $20 Thank you Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:00:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Part 2 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR Elec. Opr. Inst.,1960 rev.,VG cond, unissued $9 PRR Book of Rules,10-28-56,VG cond,unissued $9 PRR Pennsy Electric Years,VG used cond,clean $30 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, 75 cents $10 ea.bk PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin $30 PRR 40 year Silver service pin $30 PRR Adlake Sw Lantern,Good Cond,with font but missing end on wick riser Yel-Yel,Green-wht,lens-targets,heavy $290.00 PRR Lounger Car Smoking Stand,Good used cond,not perfect,as it came out of the lounge car,Heavy $475.00 PRR Flag & Fusee Case $45 PRR Stainless Steel water can,Very Good cond $45 PRR Keystone Whislte Sign,Excellent cond,Repainted( had to before the pigeon dirt corroded it),Heavy $250 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark $5 PC MW1-New Unused $ 15 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section for inspection,2nd section for construction $12 PC MW4 - New cond,no cover $10 PC MW4 - New Cond,unused $15 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 PC Stainless Steel water can,VG used cond $45 PC Long neck Journal oil can,VG used cond $40 CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $100 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 CR Annual Report-1982,83,85,86,87 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent. $30 CR Safety Committee sewn patch,blue background,white logo and letters $10 CR First Aid Kit,Opened,one or two packets used,VG cond,a must for train room $35 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy $35 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only $55pr Atlas SD7,w/DB, undec,new ,never run,cracked plastic box $45 Atlas SD9,NKP,no DB,new ,never run,w/plastic box $45 EL ETT #4 2-24-74 $15 1905 Handbook of Railroad Securities, fair cond,spine taped outside but solid inside,back cover broken but is taped,old leather like cover w/gold lettering on front. Stocks,Bonds,Income for various RR's, $25 Thank you. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:51:37 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] GP9 Question Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com While reading the Withers book on Early EMD Road Switchers, noticed comment that the last GP9s ordered (order 5570 with 48" cooling fans)didn't come with Trainphone antenna. Also had noticed previously that none of the GP9s in pictures had Trainphone antenna. Were there any exceptions? Thanks Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:55:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Part 2 CORRECTION X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, The PC Conductors and Trainman hat badges are $40 ea. Missed that in the checking process.Sorry for any confusion. PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] GP9 Question Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:36:21 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Actually the last order for PRR GP-9s came in two distinct groups with = about a year or so delay between them, as I recall from memory. I = believe the order was for something like 100 units. (Actually there = were 250 units including SD-9s, RSD-15s, and RS-11s). When the first = 50 GP-9s were built (in late 1957 without trainphone equipment) there = was a severe downturn in traffic. Several things happened = simultaneously. A- The last steam was abruptly killed on the Pennsy. = B- The 50 Geeps (7180-7229) were delivered directly to the N&W on lease = since they were not needed on the PRR, and C- THe N&W pretty much = dieselized their whole railroad, using leased Pennsy Geeps. =20 Then in the fall of 1959, business picked up and the following chain of = events occurred. The N&W went back to steam (at least a few), the = leased PRR Geeps came home at last, and the final 40 GP-9s (7230-7269) = and 10 GP-9Bs (7230B-7239B) were delivered directly to the PRR at Enola. =20 What happened in between the two groups of 50 units was a major design = change in the air-brake system. The last group became the first units = on the PRR to have the then new 26c brake equipment, replacing the old = 24RL system. 26 brake equipment remains standard on all railroads to = this day. Trainphone equipment was not installed because of the = impending conversion of the system to radios, the exact type and style = of which would remain under debate until about 1964. =20 There has been some debate over the years as to whether these units were = technically GP-18s, but I believe the PRR units had 567C engines = (standard to all PRR GP-9s) and the GP-18s had 567D engines and none = were bought by the Pennsy. =20 Hope this helps Bill Volkmer ________________________________ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com on behalf of bearcreekwest@netscape.net Sent: Wed 9/1/2004 8:51 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] GP9 Question While reading the Withers book on Early EMD Road Switchers, noticed = comment that the last GP9s ordered (order 5570 with 48" cooling = fans)didn't come with Trainphone antenna. Also had noticed previously = that none of the GP9s in pictures had Trainphone antenna. Were there = any exceptions? Thanks Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at = http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Whalthers coaches Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:02:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Are either the 48 seat or the 52 seat coaches prototypical for the PRR? If so in what service were they used? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Whalthers coaches Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:02:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Are either the 48 seat or the 52 seat coaches prototypical for the PRR? If so in what service were they used? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:00:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Tower Sheets Still Needed From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <87D6B61A-FD01-11D8-856D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Semi-annual appeal... I am still looking for a tower sheet from 1954 from a tower west of Harrisburg, but east of Altoona. For the 40+ trains I am attempting to depict as accurately as possible, the tower sheets would provide the loco numbers. While I am not a stickler for the exact numbers, it would tell me the class of motive power, which is what I am really after. BANKS would be the ideal tower, though VIEW and west would provide good info. ROCKVILLE or HARRIS would provide much of the data as well. If you have such a sheet, or a Dispatcher's sheet, please contact me off-list. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:59:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Passenger Roster Update From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've posted another batch of data to the searchable roster of passenger equipment as of 1954. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ All of the known sleeper assignments are now included, as are many of the diner assignments. I'm still working on the diners, then its back to the lightweight sleepers for further data. I also have included references to published photos. So far I have referenced about 40 of my 60 or so books, though the books that will yield the most photos are yet to be indexed. Still, it's a start. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] fishbelly hoppers (reply) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:00:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, A tip of the hat to those who responded to my question concerning that Stewart hopper. Looks like I'll be going the route of the Western Maryland for interchange purposes. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:13:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1966 train sheets, Crestline-Ft. Wayne From: Frederick Ripley Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] 1966 train sheets, Crestline-Ft. Wayne Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:39:45 -0400 To: Frederick Ripley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 2, 2004, at 8:13 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Jerry's request for 1954 tower sheets reminded me that I would love > to see some from 1966 (or 1967), anywhere between Crestline, OH, and > Adams, > IN (could be Colsan, Upper Sandusky, Forest, Dunkirk, etc.). I know > this > is probably a long shot, but no harm in asking. I'd of course be > happy to > pay for any copy costs, or purchase copies, or trade xeroxes from my > collection. Please contact me off list. Fred: I forget which tower it was, but Ted Andrews gave a presentation at Cincinnati based on his possession of tower sheets for an entire year for one location. It was somewhere on Lines West. Maybe he'll chime in here... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 07:33:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1966 train sheets, Crestline-Ft. Wayne From: Frederick Ripley From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: [PRR] Summer of '82 Model Railroading magazine Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:02:31 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, Does any one have a copy of the summer of '82 Model Railroading magazine?? There is an article on the PS&N in it I need to copy. Please let me know. Thanks. Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:35:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com With the coaches, sleepers, and baggage cars now coming out in plastic RTR , is there any chance we will see some Pennsy diners or observations. Are the any out there now, besides the Rivarossi tail end car. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:46:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 11:35 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > With the coaches, sleepers, and baggage cars now coming out in plastic > RTR , is there any chance we will see some Pennsy diners or > observations. Are the any out there now, besides the Rivarossi tail > end car. Just an opinion... The P85b coaches often ran several to a train... this translates into a bigger market. The B60b baggage cars often ran several to a train, and sometimes interchanged to other roads... again, this translates into a bigger market. The Pennsy diners were unique to the Pennsy, and only ran one per train... a comparatively limited market. I believe at some point someone will probably do a PRR diner, but I doubt there will be variety. Most likely candidate would be a D78d, with a secondary nod to a D85c/D85d twin unit. If a good modular heavyweight core kit would come along, it would really open the door for laser cut side manufacturers to address the many varieties of D70's and D78's that were out there. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:04:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:11:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From a highly reliable source I have heard that there > is an excellent chance we will be seeing some > additional PRR cars of this type in the near > future...but more than that I cannot comment on at > this time. There is a mid-train lounge in the works. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:35:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that > coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk , ealauterbach@earthlink.net From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:42:13 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 3, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Jerry Britton opines: > On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 11:35 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net > wrote: > >> With the coaches, sleepers, and baggage cars now coming out in >> plastic RTR , is there any chance we will see some Pennsy diners or >> observations. Are the any out there now, besides the Rivarossi tail >> end car. > > Just an opinion... > > The P85b coaches often ran several to a train... this translates into > a bigger market. > > The B60b baggage cars often ran several to a train, and sometimes > interchanged to other roads... again, this translates into a bigger > market. Make that "frequently interchanged" and think of the DURATION of era of those cars. > The Pennsy diners were unique to the Pennsy, and only ran one per > train... a comparatively limited market. As the ad says, "Not exactly" on either count . IIRC, diners assigned to long distance trainsets such as the Southwind did make the entire trip and are therefore of interest to a limited number of modelers of other railroads. In addition, some trains might have more than one diner, for a variety of reasons. One example is the consist of the Champion departing Richmond November 18, 1944 which had 2 ACL dining cars, the Albany (a Budd LW) and the Charleston (a HW) working the consist. In this case, the train represents the combined Florida Special and the Champion, with the LW diner to serve the coaches and the HW to serve the Pullmans. > I believe at some point someone will probably do a PRR diner, but I > doubt there will be variety. Most likely candidate would be a D78d, > with a secondary nod to a D85c/D85d twin unit. Although Eric asked for RTR diners, there are (or were) car sides for a modernized D78. NKP Car Co. (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) sold: Modernized Diner- Low Arch Roof P78-D,F $20.00 Modernized Diner- Clerestory Roof P78-D,DD $20.00. See http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_diner_c_roof_display.htm for a photo of the sides. Both these appear to be discontinued (I believe that this was mentioned on this list about 6 months ago, to BUY NOW!). A call or email to NKP might find one available... One diner not mentioned is the Botchman, which is a D78C or D78R... Of course there were only three D78Cs, they were all assigned to the Broadway Limited, and the car is only good until they were ACed some time in the 1930s. If you use the Botchman as a D78R, you'll need to add PRR style Ice bunkers, which may be the single biggest missing "link" for the PRR passenger car modeler (ECW makes a part that is supposedly a PRR ice bunker, but it isn't very close). I'm sure we'll talk about this more on the next PRRPro Project, which is the P70 series. Surely you've noticed that Walthers has started to fill out trainsets, and that Broadway Limited is offering complete trains as well? "Patience Grasshopper"! (no, I do not have any information that Walthers or BLI will be doing a PRR diner, but it seems logical) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:54:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:42 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: >> The Pennsy diners were unique to the Pennsy, and only ran one per >> train... a comparatively limited market. > > As the ad says, "Not exactly" on either count . IIRC, diners > assigned to long distance trainsets such as the Southwind did make the > entire trip and are therefore of interest to a limited number of > modelers of other railroads. In addition, some trains might have more > than one diner, for a variety of reasons. One example is the consist > of the Champion departing Richmond November 18, 1944 which had 2 ACL > dining cars, the Albany (a Budd LW) and the Charleston (a HW) working > the consist. In this case, the train represents the combined Florida > Special and the Champion, with the LW diner to serve the coaches and > the HW to serve the Pullmans. Excellent case, Bruce, I had overlooked the "interchange" of the Florida trains! > >> I believe at some point someone will probably do a PRR diner, but I >> doubt there will be variety. Most likely candidate would be a D78d, >> with a secondary nod to a D85c/D85d twin unit. > > Although Eric asked for RTR diners, there are (or were) car sides There are a variety of diner sides available from Laser Horizons as well... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_laser.html > > One diner not mentioned is the Botchman, which is a D78C or D78R... Of > course there were only three D78Cs, they were all assigned to the > Broadway Limited, and the car is only good until they were ACed some > time in the 1930s. D78C #'s 4416, 4417, 4418 5/26/32 Frigidaire ice a/c system installed. Between April and June of 1938, these cars were painted in the Leowy two-tone "Fleet of Modernism" scheme and assigned to trains 48 and 49, the Broadway Limited. Above info available from searchable passenger roster on Keystone Crossings at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] BLI K4s tender question Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] BLI K4s tender question From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Morning Sun Book Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:30:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [141.152.231.157] at Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:55 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone on the list reviewed "Trackside Around Sayre-Towanda-Waverly" by Morning Sun Books? Supposedly there is a section on the Elmira Branch in it. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Morning Sun Book Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:30:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [141.152.231.157] at Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:55 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone on the list reviewed "Trackside Around Sayre-Towanda-Waverly" by Morning Sun Books? Supposedly there is a section on the Elmira Branch in it. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:31:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well, since it doesn't look like there is a plastic Pennsy streamline diner on the near horizon, I was looking at some of the brass cars on Ebay. I was looking on eBay and come upon this brass diner: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=5916401242&rd=1 Is it accurate for the Pennsy? How good of a model is it? And if it is accurate, what era is it accurate for? Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Godby" Subject: [PRR] E8 Photos from 8/2/04 Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:45:01 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com If this works, there should be a link that will take you to a few photos = I took of the E8`s as they passed through Crestline and Mansfield, if = anyone cares to look at them. http://www.rrpictures.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D42152 Bill Godby PRRT&HS 7162 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Godby" Subject: [PRR] E8 Photos from 8/2/04 Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:45:01 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com If this works, there should be a link that will take you to a few photos = I took of the E8`s as they passed through Crestline and Mansfield, if = anyone cares to look at them. http://www.rrpictures.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D42152 Bill Godby PRRT&HS 7162 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Godby" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] E8 Photos from 8/2/04 Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:51:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I see I got the link wrong, it is; http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D42152 Sorry about that. Bill Godby PRRT&HS 7162 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bill Godby" To: "PRR-talk" ; "PRR Fax" ; = "PennsyWest" Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 11:45 AM Subject: [PennsyWest] E8 Photos from 8/2/04 > If this works, there should be a link that will take you to a few = photos I took of the E8`s as they passed through Crestline and = Mansfield, if anyone cares to look at them. >=20 > http://www.rrpictures.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D42152 >=20 > Bill Godby PRRT&HS 7162 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor = --------------------~-->=20 > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > = --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 >=20 > =20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ >=20 > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >=20 > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > =20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 17:31:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sorry, Eric,Pennsy had nothing even close. I believe it is either a GN or NP prototype, forget which. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Well, since it doesn't look like there is a plastic Pennsy streamline diner on the near horizon, I was looking at some of the brass cars on Ebay. I was looking on eBay and come upon this brass diner: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=5916401242&rd=1 > > Is it accurate for the Pennsy? How good of a model is it? And if it is accurate, what era is it accurate for? > Thanks, > Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 14:40:22 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that=20 interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in=20 the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that=20 then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Logging Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:07:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I can give you one obscure one that often gets missed: The PRR interchanged with the B&S and Potato Creek, a standard gage logging railroad at Keating Summit. I believe the PC went under around 1912 or 1926. Thomas T. Taber's logging book on that area and the book on the B&S tell all with pictures. The B&S book has a sketch of the track arrangement, the logging book has pictures of the mill and the PC yard (elsewhere) with Shays, etc. The PC was standard gage & ran Shays. Actually the B&S interchanged with the PRR at the summit (KS tower once) at a wye, can still see the right of way for the wye. The PC interchanged with the B&S just beyond the wye in a small 3 or so track yard. The PC had a sawmill a short distance north of Keating Summit. A few miles north of the summit are two huge concrete monoliths on the west side of the highway, on either side of the Pennsy (now NS). They would stand up to a nuclear blast and deflect Abrams tanks! They were the supports for the PC bridge (beautiful, long timber trestle that came across the valley just east of the PRR. Pennsy was taking no chances of a Shay falling on the Buffalo Day Express! Pennsy had sidings and an interchange track with the B&S at the summit, so presumably picked up cars from both B&S & Potato Creek. Hope that helps Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:40 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging Listers, Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] BLI PRR J1 discovery Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:26:23 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've recently diagnosed and repaired a problem I was having with the = operation of one of my HO scale Broadway Limited Imports PRR J1 models = and thought that perhaps some of you may benefit from my experience. I = was very impressed with how smoothly my model ran right out of the box = and after a reasonable break in period I decided to install the optional = traction tire-equipped driver to increase the model's pulling power. The = installation went smoothly (or so I thought) and I was pleased with the = additional traction available. However, soon after beginning operation = on a 65-car hopper train, I noticed the locomotive had developed a = slight hop with each revolution. It was quite noticeable and also seemed = to introduce a slight bind in the mechanism which would cause the model = to hesitate and stall at the lower speed steps. I had read on one of the = lists about the front pair of drivers contacting the cylinders and had = already noted the same problem on mine and clearanced this area prior to = installing the traction tire. Careful examination of the traction tire = drivers eliminated an out-of-round condition so I decided to switch back = to the original smooth driver to see if the hitch disappeared. Much to = my dismay, the locomotive continued to demonstrate the same hop and = bind. I decided to pull the driver retainer plate off another time and = carefully inspect the drive gear on the center axle. Perhaps a piece of = debris was lodged in one of the teeth. This inspection also showed = nothing. If you're still with me, this is where I found the problem. Each driver axle has a pair of brass or bronze journals similar to = those found in brass imports. They all register in a slot provided in = the locomotive's frame. Unlike brass imports, the journal is not an "H" = section, but rather more of a "T" section and relies on a bushing on the = axle to keep it pushed outboard and properly located in the frame slot. = I noticed that the journal on the engineer's side of the center, = gear-equipped axle was not properly registered. The journal had slid = towards the center gear which allowed the driver axle to cock slightly, = thus creating the hitch and bind with each revolution. All journals = except for this one have a bushing that keeps them slid outboard on = their respective axles and properly registered. I did not see any = provision for retaining the misaligned journal. I was just about to pull = the driver from its axle to install a bushing when I noticed a small = plastic ridge on the underside of the retainer plate. Sure enough, this = ridge was there to retain its corresponding journal in the frame slots. = This time I carefully re-assembled the model taking care to keep the = journal properly registered until the retainer plate was fully secured. = This did it! The model now runs flawlessly without any trace of a hitch = or bind. Hopefully, one of you will benefit from this story. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] BLI PRR J1 discovery Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:26:23 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've recently diagnosed and repaired a problem I was having with the = operation of one of my HO scale Broadway Limited Imports PRR J1 models = and thought that perhaps some of you may benefit from my experience. I = was very impressed with how smoothly my model ran right out of the box = and after a reasonable break in period I decided to install the optional = traction tire-equipped driver to increase the model's pulling power. The = installation went smoothly (or so I thought) and I was pleased with the = additional traction available. However, soon after beginning operation = on a 65-car hopper train, I noticed the locomotive had developed a = slight hop with each revolution. It was quite noticeable and also seemed = to introduce a slight bind in the mechanism which would cause the model = to hesitate and stall at the lower speed steps. I had read on one of the = lists about the front pair of drivers contacting the cylinders and had = already noted the same problem on mine and clearanced this area prior to = installing the traction tire. Careful examination of the traction tire = drivers eliminated an out-of-round condition so I decided to switch back = to the original smooth driver to see if the hitch disappeared. Much to = my dismay, the locomotive continued to demonstrate the same hop and = bind. I decided to pull the driver retainer plate off another time and = carefully inspect the drive gear on the center axle. Perhaps a piece of = debris was lodged in one of the teeth. This inspection also showed = nothing. If you're still with me, this is where I found the problem. Each driver axle has a pair of brass or bronze journals similar to = those found in brass imports. They all register in a slot provided in = the locomotive's frame. Unlike brass imports, the journal is not an "H" = section, but rather more of a "T" section and relies on a bushing on the = axle to keep it pushed outboard and properly located in the frame slot. = I noticed that the journal on the engineer's side of the center, = gear-equipped axle was not properly registered. The journal had slid = towards the center gear which allowed the driver axle to cock slightly, = thus creating the hitch and bind with each revolution. All journals = except for this one have a bushing that keeps them slid outboard on = their respective axles and properly registered. I did not see any = provision for retaining the misaligned journal. I was just about to pull = the driver from its axle to install a bushing when I noticed a small = plastic ridge on the underside of the retainer plate. Sure enough, this = ridge was there to retain its corresponding journal in the frame slots. = This time I carefully re-assembled the model taking care to keep the = journal properly registered until the retainer plate was fully secured. = This did it! The model now runs flawlessly without any trace of a hitch = or bind. Hopefully, one of you will benefit from this story. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Logging Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:37:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm not sure of the details of the railroad, but Set Up Running states that the Susquehanna & New York joined up with the PRR at Ralston PA. S&NY may have carried logs or lumber. Perhaps someone else on the list can clarify this. Roy Breon Pittsford NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:40 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging Listers, Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Logging > From: "John Frantz" > Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:33:39 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I = have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one = and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units = with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and = visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the = cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and = pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look = like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:33:39 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I = have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one = and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units = with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and = visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the = cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and = pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look = like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:48:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSR0euXF14vCkA3R0m4ws6UzMrNGgDDxQWQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hallelujah! I don't know of any mid train lounges available in HO! Six bedroom lounges were very common on many roads. Of course the PRR had two varieties on FALLS cars, prewar and postwar. Walthers could easily do a FALLS car and paint for 69 roads ;-) regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:11 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From a highly reliable source I have heard that there is an excellent > chance we will be seeing some additional PRR cars of this type in the > near future...but more than that I cannot comment on at this time. There is a mid-train lounge in the works. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:52:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <4A529B3A-FDC7-11D8-8E08-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSR1G66MJrld3HVQOqnz3NT8XoBVgDDQehQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:14:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Program on 9/12 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <2A2F0AB8-00D8-11D9-983A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This Sunday is the regularly scheduled quarterly meeting of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The meeting is at 1:30 p.m. and anyone can attend. Otterbein United Methodist Church, 301 W. Philadelphia St., York, Pa. This meeting has a special program and is a joint event with the Susquehanna Division of the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). The speaker will be John Moyer, the fireman who rode the GG1 into the basement of Washington Union Station when "The Federal" lost its brakes and crashed in 1953. John regularly worked on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor as well as on the Northern Central Branch between Baltimore and Harrisburg. John will speak of the crash and other experiences, as well as answer questions. One account of the wreck is at http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.html . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:17:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob Zoeller wrote: "Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their [ALCo PBs]. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered." Athearn does indeed offer powered PBs. The frame and mechanism is the same for both the A and B units. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] passenger consists Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:45:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com .....and speaking of passenger trains. walthers could easily do a ' = 48 broadway in conjunction with rivarossi. all it would take is an = upgrade of the=20 appropriate cars they have now; a la their U.P. eight car set. that = and three new cars, a mid train lounge, and the two pieces of a twin = unit diner. then sell it piecemeal, or as a set as they've done with the super = chief. tell me that wouldn't sell !!! we've already got = appropriate power from BLI. then again, a full congo consist in plastic would be mighty fine = too.........for those of us who didn't get the challenger offering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:40:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR and Logging From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:15:35 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: EX-Pennsy Engine Thread-Index: AcSVKDRLqhIaQDPHT325BQoaxCwLnQ== From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2004 22:15:35.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[32EEFC90:01C49528] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy = consolidation engine. But what is the railroad? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender. Marvin L. Cadwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Marvin, With the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh= , Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess. The locomotive = has definitely been rebuilt and upgraded from the original. Note the cylinde= rs, drivers, and the style of the cab. Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Cadwell, Marvin L=0D Date: 09/07/04 18:25:06=0D To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine=0D =0D Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy consolidation engine. But what is the railroad?=0D =0D http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg=0D =0D Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender.=0D =0D Marvin L. Cadwell=0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:22:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200409071350.i87DoZD15590@smtp-bedford.mitre.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would think that Walthers has the Broadway Limited of 1938 in mind rather than the Budd-built Congressional. A larger portion of their existing model inventory would be appropriate for a Broadway in the FOM paint scheme. And the majority of the cars needed for a '38 Broadway would translate well into other road names (like the 1938-version of the 20th Century perhaps). Besides that, it would be a natural eastern counterpart to the Santa Fe Super Chief, even though the two resulting Walthers-assembled trains would be of different eras. Chris Baker -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:30:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with no modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:40:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:04:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <413E5BA8.000001.03344@NIKKI> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jim Lash wrote: "...with the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh, Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess." I have to strongly caution against using any freight car capable of interchange as a basis in determining what road a picture was taken. Bruce Chubb's theories of freight car distribution appear logical, but they do not hold up when compared with actual car distribution data. While not as freely interchanged as boxcars during the steam-to-diesel transition, hopper cars did wander within a regional basis. They weren't as captive as many modelers believe. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:25:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken, That's a US Army World War II 0-6-0. The Raritan River and the Virginia Blue Ridge used them, but that's neither's logo AFAIK. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Hough " To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine > Heres the next photo of that series: > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s50asw.jpg > Different engine, same logo? > Ken > > > > Guys, > The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably > x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth > Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with > no > modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Ken Hough Photographic Repair > Specializing in Deardorff repair and refinishing > Shutter repair and Lens recementing > Custom machine work > www.deardorffcameras.0catch.com > 219-462-0281 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:14:47 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This is one of the ex-Delmarva (IIRC) PRR consolidations that went to the Norfolk and Portsmouth Beltline. The odd looking coal bunker and stack flap are typical of N&PBL engines and they had a diamond shaped logo. (It's better seen on the second photo posted by Gary M.) The sand tower suggests Portlock yard. The N&PBL was founded by AJ Cassatt as the next project after the NYP&N as a jointly owned line by all the tidewater railroads including the NYP&N, C&O, N&W, Southern, Virginia, SAL, ACL and old Norfolk Southern. Its now a NEW NS operation and is still in operation though the players have changed. I can find more details later today if anyone wants them...references at home. Jim McDaniel, happy to see something near Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:49:17 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSVQlY2hu2gkbOPSBG14QfjtxI9swAZ3y0w Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Unfortunately, I think you are right. The 10-5 and the 4-4-2 (unlike the Super Chief, this time it's the right one!) are already available. From the Rivarossi line they get the RPO and even the 12-5. The B'way never ran them, but painted the FOM (with colors to match the Walthers cars) it fits in many other trains. This means they still need a D78 rebuild, a HARBOR lounge, a VIEW obs, and even an 11 br COUNTY car. The latter is also fair game for several roads. I say "unfortunately" because I model the early 50s, and most (but not all) of these cars are gone or repainted by then. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Baker [mailto:chrisandbelton@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:23 PM To: Andy Miller; 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car I would think that Walthers has the Broadway Limited of 1938 in mind rather than the Budd-built Congressional. A larger portion of their existing model inventory would be appropriate for a Broadway in the FOM paint scheme. And the majority of the cars needed for a '38 Broadway would translate well into other road names (like the 1938-version of the 20th Century perhaps). Besides that, it would be a natural eastern counterpart to the Santa Fe Super Chief, even though the two resulting Walthers-assembled trains would be of different eras. Chris Baker -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Ex-Pennsy Engine From: John Sheets Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Ex-Pennsy Engine From: John Sheets Cc: prrths_modeling_committee@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited K4s Tender Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:28:12 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Good morning folks, A question was raised on PRR-Talk a few days ago regarding the tender to be sold with the Broadway Limited K4s. Based on information I received from Charlie Vlk of BLI, this tender will be a class 110P75A (Type 2) and thus it is also a close match for the 110P75 (Type 2) which was used behind the M1. I gleaned the data below from The Keystone, Vol 21, Number 1 (spring 1988). This issue actually has two fantastic tender articles, one on 13,000 gallon tenders, and the second, on Kiesel Tenders, both by Roger L. Keyser. The class 110P75 (Type 1) had seven side braces (and hence rows of rivets) and a long coal space. About 200 of these were ordered for use with the M1 in 1926. However, in May 1926 the specs were revised to include eight tank side braces (110P75 (Type 2)). It is not clear how many of the Type 1 tenders were built, but Keyser speculates that they "exceeded 20 units" meaning that most were probably Type 2 tenders. Except for the number of side braces, the tenders were identical. The class 110P75A (Type 2) was a modification of class 110P75 (Types 1 and 2). Keyser notes little change between the two except that the 110P75 tenders with 7 side braces were modified to have 8. The 110P75A was first mentioned in 1927, but there appear to have been none so modified until 1936. Because of the date, it is not clear if any 110P75 tenders were used behind K4s before they were reclassified as 110P75A. We have long sought evidence of 110P75 tenders on the M1 into the 1940s, however the existence of this pairing has not been (well) documented, thus it seems likely that most 110P75 tenders were converted to 110P75A tenders and paired with K4s prior to WWII as the long tenders were built for the M1s. The class 110P75A (Type 1) was converted from the short coal space 110P70 tenders already assigned to K4s. These tenders have 8 side braces, a long coal space and a crease in the side of the coal space where the slope sheet used to be, which differentiates them from the 110P75 (Type 2). BTW, the designations "Type 1" and "Type 2" are akin to railfan "phases" and are not official PRR nomenclature. They do not appear anywhere in the Form 109 Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:02:10 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:10:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/8/2004 5:20:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: John and the group, Pulpwood cars at Erie is easy - Hammermill Paper. Pulpwood cars would also be sent to Lock Haven and Ridgeway for the New York and Pennsylvania (Nypen) Pulp and Paper plants there during the PRR era. I would also like to know where the pulpwood would be coming from West Virginia Pulp and Paper had a sizeable plant in Tyrone and was served by the PRR Bald Eagle Branch. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:00:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich, I think WVP&P made their pulp themselves. I recall Tyrone smelling really foul when passing through there in the 1960's & 70's.Under early Conrail(1979,80,81) there were loads of logs at the east end of the Tyrone Park yd, at the "PARK" end but I think they also made plywood and or particle board at Tyrone. Drew,do you have any idea when they stopped making pulp at Tyrone and the smell started to go away? Can't recall some of these things anymore. Same thing with the plant at Roaring Spring. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:39:06 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Here's a photo of PRR gons loaded with pulpwood at Hammermill: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/hammer.jpg I always seem to be wrong when I trust my memory, but I think I was told that pulpwood came from Canada by ship to Hammermill's dock in the PRR's lake yards, and was taken by PRR to the mill. The Hammermill dock is shown in this 1936 track chart: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/ely_w2.gif I'm sure that in earlier times pulpwood came up the P&E as well. I can check Rosenberg's P&E history for details --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drew McGhee" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging > John and the group, > > Pulpwood cars at Erie is easy - Hammermill Paper. Pulpwood cars would also > be sent to Lock Haven and Ridgeway for the New York and Pennsylvania > (Nypen) Pulp and Paper plants there during the PRR era. > > I would also like to know where the pulpwood would be coming from. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > At 05:40 PM 9/7/2004, John Sheets wrote: > >John > > > >On one of Clarence Weavers videos c1957, there were a lot of pulpwood loaded > >PRR gons in the yard at Erie, Pa, but not sure where they came from/went to. > > > >John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] Coal Hoppers Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:31:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ctinetworks-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ctinetworks-VirusCheck: Found to be clean X-ctinetworks-SpamCheck: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Question, In Coal Hoppers, What road names could one expect to find on the PRR middle division in 1942? Thanks, George New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steve pracey" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/04 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:01:13 +1000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, I am modelling pennsy n scale. I am looking at what liveries were on rsd type Alco`s. I would also like to know if Alco had rsd type locomotives as demonstrators and if so what liveries. Kind regards, Stephen Campbelltown,Sydney,Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:10 PM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/04 PRR-Talk Digest - Wednesday, September 8, 2004 Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit by "Bob Zoeller" RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car by "Andy Miller" RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car by "Andy Miller" PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Program on 9/12 by "Jerry Britton" Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit by passenger consists by Re: PRR and Logging by "John Sheets" EX-Pennsy Engine by "Cadwell, Marvin L" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "sjlash" RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car by "Christopher Baker" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Gary Mittner" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Ken Hough" RE: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Benjamin Hom" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Gregg Mahlkov" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit From: "Bob Zoeller" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:14:03 -0500 You didn't say what era , but you could also run A-A-A or use a powered Alco PB as the prototype did. Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their Bs. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Rea" To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:48:33 -0400 Hallelujah! I don't know of any mid train lounges available in HO! Six bedroom lounges were very common on many roads. Of course the PRR had two varieties on FALLS cars, prewar and postwar. Walthers could easily do a FALLS car and paint for 69 roads ;-) regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:11 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From a highly reliable source I have heard that there is an excellent > chance we will be seeing some additional PRR cars of this type in the > near future...but more than that I cannot comment on at this time. There is a mid-train lounge in the works. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:52:29 -0400 Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Program on 9/12 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:14:00 -0400 This Sunday is the regularly scheduled quarterly meeting of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The meeting is at 1:30 p.m. and anyone can attend. Otterbein United Methodist Church, 301 W. Philadelphia St., York, Pa. This meeting has a special program and is a joint event with the Susquehanna Division of the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). The speaker will be John Moyer, the fireman who rode the GG1 into the basement of Washington Union Station when "The Federal" lost its brakes and crashed in 1953. John regularly worked on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor as well as on the Northern Central Branch between Baltimore and Harrisburg. John will speak of the crash and other experiences, as well as answer questions. One account of the wreck is at http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.html . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit From: Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:17:58 +0000 Bob Zoeller wrote: "Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their [ALCo PBs]. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered." Athearn does indeed offer powered PBs. The frame and mechanism is the same for both the A and B units. Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: passenger consists From: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:45:48 -0400 .....and speaking of passenger trains. walthers could easily do a ' 48 broadway in conjunction with rivarossi. all it would take is an upgrade of the appropriate cars they have now; a la their U.P. eight car set. that and three new cars, a mid train lounge, and the two pieces of a twin unit diner. then sell it piecemeal, or as a set as they've done with the super chief. tell me that wouldn't sell !!! we've already got appropriate power from BLI. then again, a full congo consist in plastic would be mighty fine too.........for those of us who didn't get the challenger offering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: PRR and Logging From: "John Sheets" Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:40:57 -0500 John > Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that > interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in > the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that > then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. On one of Clarence Weavers videos c1957, there were a lot of pulpwood loaded PRR gons in the yard at Erie, Pa, but not sure where they came from/went to. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:15:35 -0500 Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy consolidation engine. But what is the railroad? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender. Marvin L. Cadwell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "sjlash" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Marvin, With the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh, Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess. The locomotive has definitely been rebuilt and upgraded from the original. Note the cylinders, drivers, and the style of the cab. Jim -------Original Message------- From: Cadwell, Marvin L Date: 09/07/04 18:25:06 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy consolidation engine. But what is the railroad? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender. Marvin L. Cadwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: "Christopher Baker" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:22:41 -0400 I would think that Walthers has the Broadway Limited of 1938 in mind rather than the Budd-built Congressional. A larger portion of their existing model inventory would be appropriate for a Broadway in the FOM paint scheme. And the majority of the cars needed for a '38 Broadway would translate well into other road names (like the 1938-version of the 20th Century perhaps). Besides that, it would be a natural eastern counterpart to the Santa Fe Super Chief, even though the two resulting Walthers-assembled trains would be of different eras. Chris Baker -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Gary Mittner" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:30:42 -0400 Guys, The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with no modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Ken Hough" Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:40:16 -0500 Heres the next photo of that series: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s50asw.jpg Different engine, same logo? Ken Guys, The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with no modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Ken Hough Photographic Repair Specializing in Deardorff repair and refinishing Shutter repair and Lens recementing Custom machine work www.deardorffcameras.0catch.com 219-462-0281 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Benjamin Hom" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:04:27 -0400 Jim Lash wrote: "...with the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh, Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess." I have to strongly caution against using any freight car capable of interchange as a basis in determining what road a picture was taken. Bruce Chubb's theories of freight car distribution appear logical, but they do not hold up when compared with actual car distribution data. While not as freely interchanged as boxcars during the steam-to-diesel transition, hopper cars did wander within a regional basis. They weren't as captive as many modelers believe. Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:25:48 -0400 Ken, That's a US Army World War II 0-6-0. The Raritan River and the Virginia Blue Ridge used them, but that's neither's logo AFAIK. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Hough " To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine > Heres the next photo of that series: > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s50asw.jpg > Different engine, same logo? > Ken > > > > Guys, > The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably > x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth > Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with > no > modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Ken Hough Photographic Repair > Specializing in Deardorff repair and refinishing > Shutter repair and Lens recementing > Custom machine work > www.deardorffcameras.0catch.com > 219-462-0281 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:25:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/8/2004 8:00:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PKMac101 writes: I think WVP&P made their pulp themselves. I recall Tyrone smelling really foul when passing through there in the 1960's & 70's.Under early Conrail(1979,80,81) there were loads of logs at the east end of the Tyrone Park yd, at the "PARK" end but I think they also made plywood and or particle board at Tyrone. Drew,do you have any idea when they stopped making pulp at Tyrone and the smell started to go away? Can't recall some of these things anymore. Same thing with the plant at Roaring Spring. Pat McKinney Pat, they were still making pulp at least until May 1972. I passed that plant far too many times going between Penn State and Pittsburgh. When my younger brother graduated from PSU in 72 the plant was still spewing out air pollution. IIRC they stopped making the pulp as part of a consent agreement to end the water and air pollution violations at the facility. It was cheaper to move the pulp making to one of the WV plants with modern pollution controls than to retrofit the Tyrone plant. I may have misunderstood the original post. I thought we were talking about pulpwood loads in Erie being delivered to plants. I was id'ing the Tyrone plant as a receipient of pulpwood not paper pulp. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:58:04 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Pulpwood in gondolas, what a cool idea for a load or two! I'm used to seeing logs on trucks and bulkhead flats. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva tree farmer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:58:43 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:03:39 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I watched them off-load the stuff from the lake boats and stack it up = along the waterfront, so a good guess would be that it came from Canada. Bill Volkmer ________________________________ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com on behalf of Drew McGhee Sent: Wed 9/8/2004 4:02 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging John and the group, Pulpwood cars at Erie is easy - Hammermill Paper. Pulpwood cars would = also be sent to Lock Haven and Ridgeway for the New York and Pennsylvania (Nypen) Pulp and Paper plants there during the PRR era. I would also like to know where the pulpwood would be coming from. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 05:40 PM 9/7/2004, John Sheets wrote: >John > >On one of Clarence Weavers videos c1957, there were a lot of pulpwood = loaded >PRR gons in the yard at Erie, Pa, but not sure where they came = from/went to. > >John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:37:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com And that means it will be a late afternoon train....................... It will never be the same! Write your folks in HBG if you want a day train to be returned. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Sichel" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: [PRR] Amtrak > Just a note to the listers, if you hadn't heard. Amtrak is reducing and > restructuring Pennsylvania service in the coming months as it exits the mail > business. As of March 1, 2005, there will be no through New > York-Pittsburgh-Chicago service, as Amtrak annuls the Three Rivers and > replaces it and the Pennsylvanian with one train daily each direction from > between New York and Pittsburgh which has yet to be named. Amtrak argues > that to get to Chicago via this route, that passengers may transfer to the > Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to > School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:51:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 9, 2004, at 09:37 AM, Bennett Levin wrote: > And that means it will be a late afternoon train....................... > > It will never be the same! > > Write your folks in HBG if you want a day train to be returned. I suggest Amtrak be totally removed from the Philly to Pittsburgh run... Let the Juniata Terminal E8's take over!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:59:45 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:09:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com But what about that tender bunker or is there something in the background above the tender? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:05:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is always the option of three A units. It was not uncommon for the PRR to run three E8 A units, or a mix of E7 and E8's, together. I rode PRR trains in the sixties from Lancaster, Pa to Chicago with three A's a toting. A Broadway Limited E8 would make an excellent pulling unit to go with your E "Camera" 8A's plus it could be the trailing unit avoiding having the battery wires run through a powered unit. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:18:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ditto on the wandering hopper cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I saw and took a slide of a Pennsy two bay hopper sitting empty next to the passenger station in Tacoma, Wa., summer 1973. Have seen Reading two bay hoppers in Los Angeles, Ca., Leadville, Co. and Tucson, Az. These all between 1972 and June 1974. Later sightings of the 100T hoppers from eastern roads out west are even more prevalent. Even have a photo of a Frisco hopper hauling ungraded coal from a mine to the St. Nicholas Breaker deep in the heart of the Penna. anthracite country. Hoppers got around, too. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:51:25 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Apparently the PRR also retained some or all of the PB's in passenger service when the PA's were transferred to freight. The original Pennsy Power shows a PB between two E7's this way. -------------- Original message from RDG2124@aol.com: -------------- > There is always the option of three A units. It was not uncommon for the > PRR to run three E8 A units, or a mix of E7 and E8's, together. I rode PRR > trains in the sixties from Lancaster, Pa to Chicago with three A's a toting. A > Broadway Limited E8 would make an excellent pulling unit to go with your E > "Camera" 8A's plus it could be the trailing unit avoiding having the battery > wires > run through a powered unit. > > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS 7487 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 > CNJ 2003 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:46:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSU9NiY/M7RJe2sT1uI2dlqTRzEyACT3XVA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PCL thread on NYC rider cars has migrated to why the PRR used cabin cars so often instead of coaches on mail & express trains. It occurs to me that one advantage of a cabin car, besides the desk, is the heat available from the stove. It would not be necessary to connect all the steam lines, or even to use a steam equipped loco, on a M&E train when the rider car was a cabin. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:46:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSU9NiY/M7RJe2sT1uI2dlqTRzEyACT3XVA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PCL thread on NYC rider cars has migrated to why the PRR used cabin cars so often instead of coaches on mail & express trains. It occurs to me that one advantage of a cabin car, besides the desk, is the heat available from the stove. It would not be necessary to connect all the steam lines, or even to use a steam equipped loco, on a M&E train when the rider car was a cabin. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again From: "Ken Hough " Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Cc: "" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:22:59 -0500 To: "'PRR-Talk'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've added some kits and comments to Andy's list of models > PRR Class Model Mfr Model Type Comments P70 ALCO kit (OOP) - reportedly the basis of the ECW kit > P70 ECW kit note that the 6 wheel truck version is bogus and the 4 wheel trucks offered with these kits are some of the worst ever made. > P70 Bachmann RTR > P70r > P70fr > P70far ECW kit > P70fbr ECW kit > P70gs Laser Horizons sides P70GS NKP Products kit (brass sides + core) > P70k Laser Horizons sides P70KR NKP Products kit (brass sides + core) > PB70 Bachmann RTR PB70D NKP Products kit (brass sides + core) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Historic Rails Cover Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:28:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think Al brought this up on this list a few days ago but I just got my Historical Rails catalog and looked at the cover. The Pennsy F7 has white flags, which as was stated didn't exist on the Pennsy in the diesel age. The F7 still has closed pilot doors, but it has had the late 50's grab job on the nose. The nose keystone is white and red. At least the artist used one horn. The F7 looks a little green too. Coming up on the inside is a second generation EMD product. However two steam powered freights are heading upgrade. (Look at the smaller picture on the inside cover) Finally, none of the roofwalks have lateral running boards. Of course the blurb on the print gives it away. "Published as a tribute to the 150th Anniversary of Horseshoe Curve..." Sounds like the artist wanted to make a quick buck and didn't do his research. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:31:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E From: Frederick Ripley From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:18:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just picked up a Bowser hopper kit lettered for Bethlehem Mines. This car is of an older style open top hopper with the clam shell doors (rapid discharge). As lettered, is this an authentic model or an exercise of model manufactures' license? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:18:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just picked up a Bowser hopper kit lettered for Bethlehem Mines. This car is of an older style open top hopper with the clam shell doors (rapid discharge). As lettered, is this an authentic model or an exercise of model manufactures' license? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Traffic density question Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:38:57 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am looking at a 1941 Pittsburgh division traffic density chart from the April 1981 Rails Northeast and it struck me that there are more westbound passenger trains than eastbound over the entire division. It 34w, 31E at Altoona up to 63w, 60e between Pittsburgh and East Liberty. Obviously my conclusion is there are three more westbound long haul trains westbound then eastbound. My conclusion is possibly mail trains. any thoughts? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:22:59 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Claus Schuland asked: Could I get some clarification - are these H21 style hopper cars? Yes. http://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/h21/54108.jpg Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] The Pennsylvania Limited Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:06:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone provide me with a consist listing of the "Pennsylvania = Limited" for 1948, 1949, or 1950? =20 Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:58:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1361 updaes MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, In the past there was always someone here posting updates and photos on the 1361 restoration. Havn't heard anything "offical" lately. Isn't the K4s still in a million pieces? Reason I ask is because at our local NRHS Chapter meeting tonight someone mentioned that the 1361 is nearly 98% finished. I myself can not believe this. What happened to the Tender Baffle rebuild, the million holes in the cistren tank, not to mention the rewelds etc on the loco. It has been rumored that the K4s will indeed be ready for the 2005 railfest. My hats off to the rebuilders if it is. Reported also was the lack of NS permission to run the curve excursions and the K4s will be relegated to the Nittney Bald Eagle Branch, similar to this years deal. I am just as big a K4s fan as the next guy but what I heard tonight is I think, well, just wishful thinking on someones part. Please post an OFFICAL update, be it someone from the Horseshoe Curve Chapter or the RRMM. Curious minds need to know. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:06:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) outside chance it was a B-6. It has a slope back tender. I'm putting together my Williamsport presentation for Camp Hill and have a photograph of 1203 which has just rolled off the rails. The locomotive is facing the camera with only a bit of the side showing, and that area is bathed in steam (the incident has just happened!). The photo was taken by a commercial photographer for the newspaper with a large format camera and superb film (b&w). The engine is at a 45 degree angle to the track it was on, leaning over at about 45 degrees. The tender is still attached, front trucks lifted off the ground, tender leaning over at maybe 30 degrees from vertical. Lots of steam coming from the bottom parts of the engine and the generator. It was pulling a St. Louis Car Co. reefer and two tank cars (at least), which is all the picture shows. There is a large storage tank behind the tank cars, from the construction I would say natural gas. Would also love to identify the location. Perhaps some of you have seen it - it's one from the Putsee Vannucci collection. Thanks in advance! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:29:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001501c49903$f3f83c60$08d51842@stny.rr.com> X-SLUIDL: 7C21C7D8-366C40C4-84242060-E334E542 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Howdy Bill: According to William D. Edson in "Keysonte Stema & Electric" number 1203 was an A2 then an A3 and finally an A5s FYI: 1203 built 11/17 at Juniata, construction number 3359, scraped 3/49 >From the 1944 MP 229 for the Central Penna Division: http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/page13.jpg Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 4:06 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) outside chance it was a B-6. It has a slope back tender. I'm putting together my Williamsport presentation for Camp Hill and have a photograph of 1203 which has just rolled off the rails. The locomotive is facing the camera with only a bit of the side showing, and that area is bathed in steam (the incident has just happened!). The photo was taken by a commercial photographer for the newspaper with a large format camera and superb film (b&w). The engine is at a 45 degree angle to the track it was on, leaning over at about 45 degrees. The tender is still attached, front trucks lifted off the ground, tender leaning over at maybe 30 degrees from vertical. Lots of steam coming from the bottom parts of the engine and the generator. It was pulling a St. Louis Car Co. reefer and two tank cars (at least), which is all the picture shows. There is a large storage tank behind the tank cars, from the construction I would say natural gas. Would also love to identify the location. Perhaps some of you have seen it - it's one from the Putsee Vannucci collection. Thanks in advance! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: r.r.farquharson@att.net Subject: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:37:01 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Here is a question with a slightly different slant on what car(s) constituted an MS60. Consist lists often include both B60's and MS60's. A B60 is obviously a PRR car as would any of the B60, R50 or X29 class that the PRR used to fill a spot called for by an MS60. Were other roads' express cars also used as MS60's? There seems to be general consensus that other roads' head end cars were interchanged yet the consist lists only rarely refer to cars accepted from, for example, the NH or B&M, or forwarded to the west coast. I haven't seen any specific reference to the MP/T&P baggage cars on the Middle Division trains discussed a year or more ago. How did they end up on the Middle Division on what seems to be a regular basis? Were head-end cars treated more like their passenger-carrying brethren and kept fairly close to home and interchanged only on specified routes (like the through sleepers) or did they roam more freely? If they roamed freely, there might be a spot for one of the Southern Car & Foundry Harriman baggage cars in a mail train. Perhaps the GN, MILW, ATSF interchanged cars as well. It has been said often that the R50's travelled the entire country and a west coast modelere could justify one. Does the opposite hold true as well? Did western express cars routinely travel east under the radar as MS60's? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks. Bob Farquharson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:53:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Baggage cars would be used when a load had to be kept absolutely dry. Box cars were notorious for leaky doors. When used as such, baggage cars typically ran in freight trains handled on the rear ahead of the caboose. One other use I recall was for transporting live fish; this service required heated cars in cold weather and facilities for an attendant and a fast schedule. These loads ran on passenger trains. Both the Pennsy and that "other" road (NYC) handled these shipments out of the New York City area and either the C&O or the B&O offered the service for the Chesapeake Bay area. What the Midwest wouldn't do for fresh offerings of the sea. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] brass J-1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:46:21 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com both westside runs, and all the ahm. runs featured outside exposed sand lines. you most likely have a hotco J-1 all of these were built by ktm. it's also possible that a=20 previous owner could have modified the sand lines, as i=20 did on one of my westsides.....many years ago. the=20 hotco jay also had an older style box that used cardboard wrap for packing, along with crepe paper and plastic straw. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:51:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] R50B express reefers From: Frederick Ripley Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:51:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] R50B express reefers From: Frederick Ripley From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:15:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <102.4f1de9e6.2e7673d4@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains. They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains. = Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car (usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos. Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did. They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office and REA. Where = the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads = could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in = Texas-New York routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars = more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on = the PRR. This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in = PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed = materials). Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east empty. Eastbound/northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars = when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone know = of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:54 PM To: r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Baggage cars would be used when a load had to be kept absolutely dry. = Box=20 cars were notorious for leaky doors. When used as such, baggage cars typically=20 ran in freight trains handled on the rear ahead of the caboose. One = other use=20 I recall was for transporting live fish; this service required heated = cars=20 in cold weather and facilities for an attendant and a fast schedule. = These=20 loads ran on passenger trains. Both the Pennsy and that "other" road = (NYC)=20 handled these shipments out of the New York City area and either the C&O = or the B&O=20 offered the service for the Chesapeake Bay area. What the Midwest = wouldn't do=20 for fresh offerings of the sea. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: , , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:29:49 -0400 To: "Douglas Nelson" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of > where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug, Baggage cars did travel in freight trains. I was the third generation of my family to work for the Reading Company Railroad and witnessed this activity into the late 60s and possibly the early 70s. The Reading removed its last baggage car from revenue service in March of 1971. Baggage cars were used for shipments that could not tolerate damage in shipment. These cars were always handled as the rear most car(s) ahead of the caboose. I recall one shipment was art work, stone carvings, handled in a class BAa car going from a York City museum to a St. Louis museum during the summer of 1966. The car was routed CNJ/RDG/WM/?, don't recall who picked it up after the WM. I remember this car because the doors were padlocked and the locks had to be checked and logged every time the train stopped. Another item of note on passenger equipment. On the Reading and the CNJ passenger equipment could only be handled at the rear if the train weight, exclusive of the locomotive, exceeded 1,800 tons. Normal practice was to put it on the rear as there was an overriding concern amongst the crews that passenger equipment would not withstand the slack action of freight service. Otherwise the passenger equipment could be handled anywhere in the train. A good example was the shipment of new cars from the Budd Co. plant (near Philadelphia) that normally traveled in a freight train with not more than a dozen cars behind them. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Which brass J1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:45:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2004 11:45:13.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[21A62DB0:01C49987] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Eric, I have an AHM brass J1 that is factory with the inside sand pipes. They made both versions. JAPAN is neatly stamped between the 4th and 5th drive axles on the axle cover plate. The HO Train Co and AHM models have a portion but not all of the frame consisting of a heavy casting. The cast portion of the frame is screwed to the brass frame near the trailing truck under the cab. The frame is brass sheet with bearings on the axles and only the portion of the frame under the cab is cast. The "Brown book" in error indicates that this locomotive has a cast frame. The entire frame is not cast The HO Train Co J1 models have less plumbing for the feedwater heater system than SOME of the AHM models. (it seams to be that the AHM outside sand pipe versions have more plumbing) Japanese Built: The West Side Models, AHM and HO Train Co J1 models were all made by Katsumi in Japan. Korean Built: The Key models by Samghongsa were built in Korea and the Sunset Models Prestige Series J1's were made in Korea as well. I have digital images of these models if that would help. Please contact me off list if you would want some E-mailed. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com Subject: Which brass J1 do I have? From: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:06:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) I have owned a brass J1 for sometime and would like to know who's it is. The sand lines are covered and it has Japan stamped on the bottom of the engine drive frame. Anyone have any way to tell, my guess is that it is either a AHM or Westside. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Westside J1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:04:27 -0500 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Westside J1 >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 >From: Chuck Bowman >Subject: Westside J1 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:42:30 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSZfNh4MNwhlehQSkSYPD0CvHZVzAAK15ug Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM To: Douglas Nelson Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] brass J-1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:48:42 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com sorry, guys......i never saw a westside with inside sand pipes !! were they part of the first run ( open frame motor) or second run (can motor) ??? i've seen several painted examples, besides my own, that were modified to inside sand lines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:43:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to all who confirmed it was an A-5. I was very surprised it was scrapped in March 49 - I thought the picture was taken in the mid '50's. Roy - I will scan the picture and send it to you in hopes of identifying location. Not much to go on but that big storage tank. I can't send it to too many people because of the copyright, however, but sure would like to know location! Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:50 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (*) J_CHICKENPOX_42,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry and friends- Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the "Makeup of Trains" books you refer to. Are they on Merchandise Service site and I just don't see them? It has so much great stuff, I sometimes have trouble narrowing available info down to a manageable level! For those just getting started in passenger head-end service, consists, and equipment, it is a fascinating and complicated matrix of related subjects. I have found answers in, and suggest reading: "Railway Express Agency" by Roseman "Steam, Steel and Limiteds" by Kratville "The Trains we Rode, 2 vols." by Beebe and Clegg "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains" by Dubin "Passenger Terminals and Trains" by Droege "From Zephyr to Amtrak" by Randall "Car Names Numbers and Consists" by Wayner "Railroad Passenger and Pullman Car Names" by Wayner "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" annual back then by Railway Equipment and Publication Co. (ORER for passenger and headend cars) "Official Guide of the Railways" published several times a year throughout the twentieth century and a trove of endless treasures and often of new and even more baffling questions. Reprints are currently available of several key issues as originals are so often falling apart from use and age. "Car Builders Cyclopedias" Simmons-Boardman Pub var years "Train Shed Cyclopedias" var issues Books and Hist Soc publications about you favorite railroad, your favorite railroad's "house organ" magazine, and old issues of Trains magazine, Railroad magazine, Railway Age, model mags, and Passenger Train Journal contain a wealth of details about head-end service but requires lots of digging. Thanks, owen thorne Andy Miller wrote: > Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ > Pennsy > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM > To: Douglas Nelson > Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 > > On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > > > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? > > The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which > head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek > magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and > destination. > > The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no > passengers). Some had more than one rider car! > > There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A > Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive > coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this > book.) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 01:39 PM, Owen Thorne wrote: > Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the > "Makeup of > Trains" books you refer to. You need to visit the Passenger Operations section at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ There's a subsection called Makeup of Trains / Consist Books. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:08:53 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Douglas Nelson writes: >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains.  They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains.  Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car(usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos.< This is true of the PRR operations as well... >Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. In most cases not all. >Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did.  They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office andREA.  Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in Texas-NewYork routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on the PRR.  This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed materials).< This also depended on hwho held the contract for that mail contract. If the PRR held that routes contract then they would be expeced to supply the car for the move. Thisnk about it more mail that originated in the high populated areas generated more pounds (or feet of mail). Even today the carriers are responsible for mail on a per foot basis even locally. So with the population being higher in the east and only a few carriers with connections west, they would handle most of the volume. Mail contracts were very competitive. IT subsidized the passenger services. >Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east emty.  Eastbound /northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This is true and in the management of cars it would behoove you as the western carrier to reload the eastern cars back to destination and keep your cars on your home road. The government would not care whose car carried the mail just that is was billed as the proper footage. Can you imagine how many more empty car would be moving if you didn't reload cars towards home? Empty miles has and is a huge problem for the railraods then as it is today. >This would be a great subject for more detailed study.  Does anyone know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Yes, a good freind of mine and to this list did a very detail study of the operation of pre AMTRAK Mail and Express at the Chicago Union Terminal operations... Ed DeRouin of Pixels Publishing... Chicago Union Station, A Look at It's History and Operations Before AMTRAK ... Ed is also associated with the PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter and is working on more PRR related Chicago area books. Watch for their anouncement in TKM. Meet him this October at Naperville. You'll find he is a great addition to our PRR Community and long time PPR modeler in HO Scale. >Doug Nelson< Doug and all I find the mail and express a very intersting and am going to start a series of article (with help) regarding just that in modeling cars and explaining the operation highlights. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:05:28 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS Cgo Terminal Chapter -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Robert Vercel" To: Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:27:20 +0000 Hello, I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne divisions. Essentially, I am trying to paint/decal my models appropriately for these areas. The equipment may have entered and exited the rosters of these divisions from time to time, but I need only to have an idea of what equipment was present at any given time in the 15 year period listed above. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and effort. Bob Vercel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:05:28 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS Cgo Terminal Chapter -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Robert Vercel" To: Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:27:20 +0000 Hello, I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne divisions. Essentially, I am trying to paint/decal my models appropriately for these areas. The equipment may have entered and exited the rosters of these divisions from time to time, but I need only to have an idea of what equipment was present at any given time in the 15 year period listed above. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and effort. Bob Vercel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re; [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:15:01 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Evan Leisey wrote: "Box cars were notorious for leaky doors." Not just doors. The Class X29 internal carline roof design was nototious leaky. (That side sill rot moisture had to come from somewhere...) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:22:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] B6 not what you think X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/13/04 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) > outside chance it was a B-6. Caution - Class B6 is not a Lines East engine. I see a large number of mentions of class B6 on the list. In most cases, this is obviously being used as shorthand for B6sa or B6sb. However, while preparing The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, I learned that PRR's B6 class was a Lines West design, with some later being rebuilt with superheating into B6s class. Some of these engines were still active in Cincinnati between WW2 and the end of steam, which suggests they might be found that late in other Lines West assignments. The experts can confirm or deny that, once Lines West had introduced a B6 and a B6s, a similar Lines East design had to start with B6sa and go on to (the ubiquitous) B6sb. BTW, all four of these classes have different specifications in the "109" Classification of Locomotives and tenders. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about all this is that, although the experts make it clear that a B6sb is a different machine than a B6s, after they were both in service for a few years and updated for common Pennsy practice, they're not easy to tell apart in photographs, and you have to consult rosters to be sure. OTOH someone within reach of the list may be able to offer spotting tips I haven't picked up. Meantime, to be technically correct, those of you east of Pittsburgh need to use B6sb etc. instead of just B6. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:22:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] B6 not what you think In a message dated 9/13/04 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) > outside chance it was a B-6. Caution - Class B6 is not a Lines East engine. I see a large number of mentions of class B6 on the list. In most cases, this is obviously being used as shorthand for B6sa or B6sb. However, while preparing The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, I learned that PRR's B6 class was a Lines West design, with some later being rebuilt with superheating into B6s class. Some of these engines were still active in Cincinnati between WW2 and the end of steam, which suggests they might be found that late in other Lines West assignments. The experts can confirm or deny that, once Lines West had introduced a B6 and a B6s, a similar Lines East design had to start with B6sa and go on to (the ubiquitous) B6sb. BTW, all four of these classes have different specifications in the "109" Classification of Locomotives and tenders. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about all this is that, although the experts make it clear that a B6sb is a different machine than a B6s, after they were both in service for a few years and updated for common Pennsy practice, they're not easy to tell apart in photographs, and you have to consult rosters to be sure. OTOH someone within reach of the list may be able to offer spotting tips I haven't picked up. Meantime, to be technically correct, those of you east of Pittsburgh need to use B6sb etc. instead of just B6. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:22:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] B6 not what you think In a message dated 9/13/04 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) > outside chance it was a B-6. Caution - Class B6 is not a Lines East engine. I see a large number of mentions of class B6 on the list. In most cases, this is obviously being used as shorthand for B6sa or B6sb. However, while preparing The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, I learned that PRR's B6 class was a Lines West design, with some later being rebuilt with superheating into B6s class. Some of these engines were still active in Cincinnati between WW2 and the end of steam, which suggests they might be found that late in other Lines West assignments. The experts can confirm or deny that, once Lines West had introduced a B6 and a B6s, a similar Lines East design had to start with B6sa and go on to (the ubiquitous) B6sb. BTW, all four of these classes have different specifications in the "109" Classification of Locomotives and tenders. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about all this is that, although the experts make it clear that a B6sb is a different machine than a B6s, after they were both in service for a few years and updated for common Pennsy practice, they're not easy to tell apart in photographs, and you have to consult rosters to be sure. OTOH someone within reach of the list may be able to offer spotting tips I haven't picked up. Meantime, to be technically correct, those of you east of Pittsburgh need to use B6sb etc. instead of just B6. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:10:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re this subject of express cars in freight trains or vice-versa, I am sorry to beat this horse one more time, but on the Passenger Car list I have just raised it again and I am still not satisfied with the answer. In PPII there is a photo of a train purported to be Mail & Express 14 at Gould, Ohio. First of all, though it does look (to me) like Panhandle territory, my PTT and other documents don't show 14 West of Pittsburgh. I'm open to comments from those with more extensive libraries. or other evidence. Secondly, the train has a mix of LCL cars and express (baggage) cars. I was advised on this list that this was possible because there were no passenger carrying cars on this leg of the train route and no steam lines were needed. And the particular Erie-built on the head end did not have a steam generator. Another possibility would be it was summer and heat was not needed. OK, I will be happy if someone could just point me to a document which lists this train (assuming it is the right number) on a leg which did not have passenger carrying cars. Pittsburgh to Harrisburg and East had P70s. Only reason I am being so persistent (polite word for it :-)) is from a modeling standpoint. It would be fun to throw an LCL container car and a Merchandise X40b on the headend with R50bs and B60bs following. I'd just like to know if it was a regular thing. With thousands of photos out there, seeing only one with this consist mix doesn't satisfy me. And by the way, R50bs and B60bs are spotted in photos deadheading back in freight trains, though I would think that would be the exception, especially for the B60b Bob Zoeller > >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains. They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:47:04 -0500 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Westside Brass J1 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:06:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bob, "Mail 14" was an eastbound train out of Pittsburgh to NYC. Train left Pittsburgh with headend MS60s and one P70. Picked up a second P70 in Harrisburg. Source is from New York Division 1950 consist book. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] REA express cars Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:22:41 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What color where the REA express cars of the late 40's early 50's? I = would like to purchase a Walthers car or two, and want to get the right = one. Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] MS60's / Deadheading Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:31:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Been all this talk about MS60's, other head end equipment, and routing of empties... The Makeup of Trains books, as far as I have seen, do not mention head end equipment of other roads. They do indicate rider cars, and there are a few cases (in 1954 anyway) of rider cars in the middle of the train, or multiple rider cars. But one 1954 mail and express train stands out for a couple of reasons, it's train #18, from Pittsburgh to New York. It's makeup is as follows: Express (X) -- from various sources, # cars as needed, to Hudson cutoff Deadhead Head Ends -- from Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, # cars as needed The above is a rare listing of deadheading! Express B60 Messenger -- from Chicago Express B60 Messenger -- from Pittsburgh Express B60 Messenger -- from St. Louis Express X29 -- from Harrisburg MS60 -- from Harrisburg BM70m Letter End West --- from Pittsburgh BM70m Letter End East -- from Pittsburgh MS60 -- from Pittsburgh MS60 (X) -- from Pittsburgh -- NY or PPC PB70 Scheme 6 -- from Pittsburgh P70kr -- from Pittsburgh P70 Scheme 6 -- from Harrisburg The above is noted for its deadheading of equipment. If you want a really LOONNG express train, go for train #95!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] F7s Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:09:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know whether there were any F7s with tuscan red paint but a single freight stripe? I have an old brass model that was delivered that way. If so, any numbering information other than the general info in Pennsy Power II? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [PRR] MS60's / Deadheading > Been all this talk about MS60's, other head end equipment, and routing > of empties... > > The Makeup of Trains books, as far as I have seen, do not mention head > end equipment of other roads. They do indicate rider cars, and there > are a few cases (in 1954 anyway) of rider cars in the middle of the > train, or multiple rider cars. > > But one 1954 mail and express train stands out for a couple of reasons, > it's train #18, from Pittsburgh to New York. It's makeup is as follows: > Express (X) -- from various sources, # cars as needed, to Hudson cutoff > Deadhead Head Ends -- from Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, # cars as needed > The above is a rare listing of deadheading! > Express B60 Messenger -- from Chicago > Express B60 Messenger -- from Pittsburgh > Express B60 Messenger -- from St. Louis > Express X29 -- from Harrisburg > MS60 -- from Harrisburg > BM70m Letter End West --- from Pittsburgh > BM70m Letter End East -- from Pittsburgh > MS60 -- from Pittsburgh > MS60 (X) -- from Pittsburgh -- NY or PPC > PB70 Scheme 6 -- from Pittsburgh > P70kr -- from Pittsburgh > P70 Scheme 6 -- from Harrisburg > > The above is noted for its deadheading of equipment. If you want a > really LOONNG express train, go for train #95!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:10:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] F7s > From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > Subject: [PRR] MS60's / Deadheading From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:35:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <42826.94644@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.205.212.100] at Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:35:11 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, This is not an OFFICIAL status report, but based on what I observed on a visit to Steamtown about a month ago. The cab of the 1361 was upright outside the building. When one of my sons asked a tour guide about progress on the loco, he was told "Oh, that's not one of our projects". I mentioned to a different guide that the restoration was a bit overdue. His reply was "Yeah, wasn't it due in 1999?" and gave me that look. You know, the one that says "don't ask". George -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:54 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/13/04 PRR-Talk Digest - Monday, September 13, 2004 RE: [PRR] MS60 by "Douglas Nelson" Re: [PRR] MS60 by "Jerry @ Pennsy" RE: [PRR] MS60 by Which brass J1 by "Harry Fitch" Re: [PRR] R50B express reefers by "Bruce Smith" Westside J1 by "Chuck Bowman" Fwd: Westside J1 by "Chuck Bowman" RE: [PRR] MS60 by "Andy Miller" brass J-1 by Re: [PRR] Switcher #1203 by "William Bigler" Re: [PRR] MS60 by "Owen Thorne" Re: [PRR] MS60 by "Jerry Britton" RE: [PRR] MS60 by Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) by Re; [PRR] MS60 by Re: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) by "Jerry Britton" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: "Douglas Nelson" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:15:37 -0700 I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains. They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains. Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car (usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos. Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did. They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office and REA. Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in Texas-New York routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on the PRR. This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed materials). Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east empty. Eastbound/northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:54 PM To: r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Baggage cars would be used when a load had to be kept absolutely dry. Box cars were notorious for leaky doors. When used as such, baggage cars typically ran in freight trains handled on the rear ahead of the caboose. One other use I recall was for transporting live fish; this service required heated cars in cold weather and facilities for an attendant and a fast schedule. These loads ran on passenger trains. Both the Pennsy and that "other" road (NYC) handled these shipments out of the New York City area and either the C&O or the B&O offered the service for the Chesapeake Bay area. What the Midwest wouldn't do for fresh offerings of the sea. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:29:49 -0400 On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of > where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:28:29 EDT Doug, Baggage cars did travel in freight trains. I was the third generation of my family to work for the Reading Company Railroad and witnessed this activity into the late 60s and possibly the early 70s. The Reading removed its last baggage car from revenue service in March of 1971. Baggage cars were used for shipments that could not tolerate damage in shipment. These cars were always handled as the rear most car(s) ahead of the caboose. I recall one shipment was art work, stone carvings, handled in a class BAa car going from a York City museum to a St. Louis museum during the summer of 1966. The car was routed CNJ/RDG/WM/?, don't recall who picked it up after the WM. I remember this car because the doors were padlocked and the locks had to be checked and logged every time the train stopped. Another item of note on passenger equipment. On the Reading and the CNJ passenger equipment could only be handled at the rear if the train weight, exclusive of the locomotive, exceeded 1,800 tons. Normal practice was to put it on the rear as there was an overriding concern amongst the crews that passenger equipment would not withstand the slack action of freight service. Otherwise the passenger equipment could be handled anywhere in the train. A good example was the shipment of new cars from the Budd Co. plant (near Philadelphia) that normally traveled in a freight train with not more than a dozen cars behind them. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Which brass J1 From: "Harry Fitch" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:45:07 -0400 Eric, I have an AHM brass J1 that is factory with the inside sand pipes. They made both versions. JAPAN is neatly stamped between the 4th and 5th drive axles on the axle cover plate. The HO Train Co and AHM models have a portion but not all of the frame consisting of a heavy casting. The cast portion of the frame is screwed to the brass frame near the trailing truck under the cab. The frame is brass sheet with bearings on the axles and only the portion of the frame under the cab is cast. The "Brown book" in error indicates that this locomotive has a cast frame. The entire frame is not cast The HO Train Co J1 models have less plumbing for the feedwater heater system than SOME of the AHM models. (it seams to be that the AHM outside sand pipe versions have more plumbing) Japanese Built: The West Side Models, AHM and HO Train Co J1 models were all made by Katsumi in Japan. Korean Built: The Key models by Samghongsa were built in Korea and the Sunset Models Prestige Series J1's were made in Korea as well. I have digital images of these models if that would help. Please contact me off list if you would want some E-mailed. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com Subject: Which brass J1 do I have? From: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:06:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) I have owned a brass J1 for sometime and would like to know who's it is. The sand lines are covered and it has Japan stamped on the bottom of the engine drive frame. Anyone have any way to tell, my guess is that it is either a AHM or Westside. Thanks, Eric ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B express reefers From: "Bruce Smith" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:39:16 -0500 On Sep 12, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Hello all, > > I am looking at the Walthers Sept. catalog, and the various versions > of the > R50B express reefer (p.26). It seems to me these have been discussed > fairly > extensively in the past, so I'm sorry for any repetitition. My > questions > are fairly brief however. > > 1. Were these used in quantity up to the end of the PRR? Fred, They were getting pretty scarce towards the end. Bob Johnson, way back in January 2002 said (on this list) "At the beginning of 1967 there were only six R50B cars left on the passenger equipment roster. All were gone from the roster by the end of 1967." This email from Bob also contains excellent details on paint, lettering and safety appliances. I would note that during our PRRPro R50B project Bob determined that single grab on each end of the side was a further modification of 2 left grab car, and not a car that had escaped freight car appliance addition. For more details on this and sprucing up the model you can check out the PRRPro archives (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) > 2. If so, then I take it the keystone only scheme (932-5883) would be > most > applicable for mid-60's? This scheme posed an interesting problem for Walthers. I know it doesn't sound like them, but they wanted not only prototypical schemes, but they wanted documented photographic evidence and car numbers! Photos of "scotchlite" keystone R50Bs are very rare! I can't guarantee the numbers for the keystone R50Bs, but the scheme is correct (Greg Martin or Bob Johnson might be able to add more). This scheme would have started appearing in 1962, but cars may not have made it into this scheme for years, if at all, so you could also use a heavily weathered "Non-REA" scheme (the REA lettering was removed in 1954). > 3. Does one apply nos., like Walthers passenger cars, so more than one > road no. can be created, or do they come with nos. applied? No, the cars are numbered. The best way to get multiple numbers is to buy the 2 pack and the single, for three different numbers. After that, you're back to removing numbers and decals. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Westside J1 From: "Chuck Bowman" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 I have a Westside J1 with covered steam lines. On the bottom of the frame, it says "Japan" and "KTM". The initials are for KaTsuMi, who made the models, according to the label on the box. chuck Charles H. Bowman Lah Lah Farm 13350 Hopes Creek Road College Station TX USA Phone 1-979-690-7095 Fax 1-979-690-8069 Mobile 1-979-676-0279 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Fwd: Westside J1 From: "Chuck Bowman" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:04:27 -0500 Sorry......I meant covered sand lines. chuck >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >From: Chuck Bowman >Subject: Westside J1 > >I have a Westside J1 with covered steam lines. On the bottom of the >frame, it says "Japan" and "KTM". The initials are for KaTsuMi, who made >the models, according to the label on the box. > >chuck Charles H. Bowman Lah Lah Farm 13350 Hopes Creek Road College Station TX USA Phone 1-979-690-7095 Fax 1-979-690-8069 Mobile 1-979-676-0279 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: "Andy Miller" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:42:30 -0400 Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM To: Douglas Nelson Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: brass J-1 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:48:42 -0400 sorry, guys......i never saw a westside with inside sand pipes !! were they part of the first run ( open frame motor) or second run (can motor) ??? i've seen several painted examples, besides my own, that were modified to inside sand lines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Switcher #1203 From: "William Bigler" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:43:14 -0400 Thanks to all who confirmed it was an A-5. I was very surprised it was scrapped in March 49 - I thought the picture was taken in the mid '50's. Roy - I will scan the picture and send it to you in hopes of identifying location. Not much to go on but that big storage tank. I can't send it to too many people because of the copyright, however, but sure would like to know location! Bill Bigler ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: "Owen Thorne" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:50 -0400 Jerry and friends- Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the "Makeup of Trains" books you refer to. Are they on Merchandise Service site and I just don't see them? It has so much great stuff, I sometimes have trouble narrowing available info down to a manageable level! For those just getting started in passenger head-end service, consists, and equipment, it is a fascinating and complicated matrix of related subjects. I have found answers in, and suggest reading: "Railway Express Agency" by Roseman "Steam, Steel and Limiteds" by Kratville "The Trains we Rode, 2 vols." by Beebe and Clegg "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains" by Dubin "Passenger Terminals and Trains" by Droege "From Zephyr to Amtrak" by Randall "Car Names Numbers and Consists" by Wayner "Railroad Passenger and Pullman Car Names" by Wayner "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" annual back then by Railway Equipment and Publication Co. (ORER for passenger and headend cars) "Official Guide of the Railways" published several times a year throughout the twentieth century and a trove of endless treasures and often of new and even more baffling questions. Reprints are currently available of several key issues as originals are so often falling apart from use and age. "Car Builders Cyclopedias" Simmons-Boardman Pub var years "Train Shed Cyclopedias" var issues Books and Hist Soc publications about you favorite railroad, your favorite railroad's "house organ" magazine, and old issues of Trains magazine, Railroad magazine, Railway Age, model mags, and Passenger Train Journal contain a wealth of details about head-end service but requires lots of digging. Thanks, owen thorne Andy Miller wrote: > Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ > Pennsy > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM > To: Douglas Nelson > Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 > > On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > > > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? > > The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which > head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek > magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and > destination. > > The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no > passengers). Some had more than one rider car! > > There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A > Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive > coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this > book.) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:46 -0400 On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 01:39 PM, Owen Thorne wrote: > Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the > "Makeup of > Trains" books you refer to. You need to visit the Passenger Operations section at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ There's a subsection called Makeup of Trains / Consist Books. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:08:53 -0400 Douglas Nelson writes: >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains.  They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains.  Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car(usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos.< This is true of the PRR operations as well... >Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. In most cases not all. >Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did.  They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office andREA.  Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in Texas-NewYork routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on the PRR.  This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed materials).< This also depended on hwho held the contract for that mail contract. If the PRR held that routes contract then they would be expeced to supply the car for the move. Thisnk about it more mail that originated in the high populated areas generated more pounds (or feet of mail). Even today the carriers are responsible for mail on a per foot basis even locally. So with the population being higher in the east and only a few carriers with connections west, they would handle most of the volume. Mail contracts were very competitive. IT subsidized the passenger services. >Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east emty.  Eastbound /northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This is true and in the management of cars it would behoove you as the western carrier to reload the eastern cars back to destination and keep your cars on your home road. The government would not care whose car carried the mail just that is was billed as the proper footage. Can you imagine how many more empty car would be moving if you didn't reload cars towards home? Empty miles has and is a huge problem for the railraods then as it is today. >This would be a great subject for more detailed study.  Does anyone know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Yes, a good freind of mine and to this list did a very detail study of the operation of pre AMTRAK Mail and Express at the Chicago Union Terminal operations... Ed DeRouin of Pixels Publishing... Chicago Union Station, A Look at It's History and Operations Before AMTRAK ... Ed is also associated with the PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter and is working on more PRR related Chicago area books. Watch for their anouncement in TKM. Meet him this October at Naperville. You'll find he is a great addition to our PRR Community and long time PPR modeler in HO Scale. >Doug Nelson< Doug and all I find the mail and express a very intersting and am going to start a series of article (with help) regarding just that in modeling cars and explaining the operation highlights. Greg Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:05:28 +0000 Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS Cgo Terminal Chapter -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Robert Vercel" To: Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:27:20 +0000 Hello, I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne divisions. Essentially, I am trying to paint/decal my models appropriately for these areas. The equipment may have entered and exited the rosters of these divisions from time to time, but I need only to have an idea of what equipment was present at any given time in the 15 year period listed above. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and effort. Bob Vercel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re; [PRR] MS60 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:15:01 +0000 Evan Leisey wrote: "Box cars were notorious for leaky doors." Not just doors. The Class X29 internal carline roof design was nototious leaky. (That side sill rot moisture had to come from somewhere...) Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:18:31 -0400 On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 03:05 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS > Cgo Terminal Chapter > > -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- > From: "Robert Vercel" > I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a > question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster > for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne > divisions. With regards to cabins, there's a "just missed" roster from 1957 on Keystone Crossings, which is searchable by divisions and includes most of the actual assignments. Address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ With regards to locomotives, you need Form 229. The Motive Operations section of Keystone Crossings has one for 1954, plus links to others on other web sites for 1944 and 1957. These are broken down by division. The address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/ Hope this helps! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:49:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1F4A28B6.2C2CB69F.0261055E@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks Greg. Articles on this subject would be welcomed. Part of the reason Claus and I started Hell Gate Models was due to our interest in headend traffic. Several years ago someone announced a book on mail = trains (I still have the flyer somewhere) but it never appeared. Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of TGREGMRTN@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 11:09 AM To: "Douglas Nelson" Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Douglas Nelson writes: >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that=20 >baggage cars were used in freight trains. =A0They were typically used = in=20 >passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger = >trains. =A0Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the = rear,=20 >or a cabin car(usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by=20 >passenger locos.< This is true of the PRR operations as well... >Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. In most cases not all. >Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail=20 >storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other = >railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as=20 >Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did. =A0They=20 >served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office andREA. = =A0 >Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other=20 >railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P=20 >baggage cars in Texas-NewYork routes through St. Louis). My impression=20 >however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and = >southern roads traveling on the PRR. =A0This may have been the result = of=20 >a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating=20 >online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines=20 >and other printed materials).< This also depended on hwho held the contract for that mail contract. If = the PRR held that routes contract then they would be expeced to supply the = car for the move. Thisnk about it more mail that originated in the high populated areas generated more pounds (or feet of mail). Even today the carriers are responsible for mail on a per foot basis even locally. So = with the population being higher in the east and only a few carriers with connections west, they would handle most of the volume. Mail contracts = were very competitive. IT subsidized the passenger services.=20 >Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east emty. =A0Eastbound=20 >/northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR=20 >in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when=20 >PRR cars were not available. This is true and in the management of cars it would behoove you as the western carrier to reload the eastern cars back to destination and keep = your cars on your home road. The government would not care whose car carried = the mail just that is was billed as the proper footage. Can you imagine how = many more empty car would be moving if you didn't reload cars towards home? = Empty miles has and is a huge problem for the railraods then as it is today.=20 >This would be a great subject for more detailed study. =A0Does anyone=20 >know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Yes, a good freind of mine and to this list did a very detail study of = the operation of pre AMTRAK Mail and Express at the Chicago Union Terminal operations... Ed DeRouin of Pixels Publishing... Chicago Union Station, = A Look at It's History and Operations Before AMTRAK ... Ed is also associated with the PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter and is working on more PRR related Chicago area books. Watch for their anouncement in TKM. Meet him this October at Naperville. You'll find he is a great addition = to our PRR Community and long time PPR modeler in HO Scale.=20 >Doug Nelson< Doug and all I find the mail and express a very intersting and am going = to start a series of article (with help) regarding just that in modeling = cars and explaining the operation highlights.=20 Greg Martin=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:57:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:45:54 -0400 To: k4sb@niia.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 13, 2004, at 11:57 PM, Ken Hough wrote: > I suggest we > all call Steamtown and ask exactly what is going on. See how many > different stories are told to us. Again, be reminded, K4 #1361 is NOT a Steamtown project. They may not be willing to give an update. Interesting quandry, however. The Altoona museum management is on this list. They've been asked to provide an official update but have chosen not to respond. But if you go and get a third party update and post it, they will be the first to chime in and complain about not seeking an "official" update. Been down that road several times before. Best bet might be someone from the Altoona Chapter of the NRHS. Anyone? P.S. I don't think anyone has ever officially noted where they intend to run K4 #1361 once it is restored. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:37:47 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] DRAWBAR QUESTION From: "Ken Hough " Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:02:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RRM Comments? please? K4 1361 Status Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:08:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Wathers REA cars From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:08:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Wathers REA cars From: Frederick Ripley From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers coach in TKM 14 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:17:07 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In TKM 14 Greg Martin claims that the 52 seat Budd coach from Walthers is a Seaboard car for Florida service and while lettered PENNSYLVANIA in black, not a PRR prototype. This is partially correct. The cars are those built for the Florida service on the Silver Meteor and Sliver Star, and as such, Seaboard owned the lion's share. However, the PRR participated in the pool and bought ten cars (4048-4067). They were designated P85e and lettered as Walthers has done. See Rob Schoenberg's diagram at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85e.gif &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:05:19 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Bd Wooden Baggage Car From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <7E52F3AE-065F-11D9-A2BD-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.193.50 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Group, I am working on a drawing of a Bd baggage car based on data from Rob's site and a photo. Then I found out that Strasburg lists one on their roster. Soooo, has a Bd drawing already been done, and if there's one at the RRMoP, can I borrow someone's photos to help with the drawing, which I'll make available? BTW, I'm interested in both versions of the car. TIA. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:19:49 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <850FAE04-0661-11D9-A2BD-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.193.50 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:19:49 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <850FAE04-0661-11D9-A2BD-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.193.50 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walthers sleeper Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:46:01 -0400 From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walthers sleeper Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:46:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:18:30 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers sleeper Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Is Walthers PS 6-6-4 sleeper PRR correct? for 1955-57? Chris, It is not orrect in PRR paint as the PRR did not buy the 6-6-4 configuartion. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PRR program on PBS / WQED Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:41:42 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List ,=20 I just saw a program announcement on the public broadcasting channel = here in Pittsburgh , WQED . They will air a program on the PRR this = Thursday night at 8 pm . The trailer looks great ! Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:07:37 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello again , I checked on WQED's website and there will be an encore airing of the = PRR program on Saturday, September 18, 1:00 am . If you miss it = Thursday you'll have a chance to see it again on Saturday . Mike Hmel=20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:57:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR program on PBS / WQED MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mike, List, Just checked WQED's website and found this 1 sentence desription of the PRR program mentioned: http://www.pbs.org/modules/tvschedules/multichannel.programinfopopup.stations.html?display_format=ep_description&title_id=17769&display_date=2004-09-16&display_time=20:00&display_feed=461&feeds=461,462,12425&station=WQED&zipcode=&transport=&provider=0&channelsuppress=f Hope that url came through ok....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:25:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry: Interesting post. If the Museum folks are on this list as you say, how do they expect us to contribute real money but be mum on what is going on. One person's opinion!!! They DO NOT OWN 1361. WE ALL DO. THEY JUST HAVE IT IN TRUST FOR THE REST OF US. Truly, I was going to donate something when I got around to it. Now I wonder what is going on. I have kept track of previously reported problems at the Museum. You would think they would be a little more PR oriented. I'll ask the question!!! If anyone on this list is associated with the Museum management and want donations, at least from me, WHAT'S UP WITH 1361??? All the best to you and yours Weldon D.Greiger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status > On Sep 13, 2004, at 11:57 PM, Ken Hough wrote: > > > I suggest we > > all call Steamtown and ask exactly what is going on. See how many > > different stories are told to us. > > Again, be reminded, K4 #1361 is NOT a Steamtown project. They may not > be willing to give an update. > > Interesting quandry, however. The Altoona museum management is on this > list. They've been asked to provide an official update but have chosen > not to respond. But if you go and get a third party update and post it, > they will be the first to chime in and complain about not seeking an > "official" update. Been down that road several times before. > > Best bet might be someone from the Altoona Chapter of the NRHS. Anyone? > > P.S. I don't think anyone has ever officially noted where they intend > to run K4 #1361 once it is restored. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:10:51 -0400 From: michael hmel [mailto:michaelhmel@netzero.net] Subject: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:56:51 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Maybe I can shed some light on the connections between passengers cars. As you note there are 3 connections. The largest is the bottom one, steam line. The one you call "an articulated mechanical gizmo." This requires a hammer to connect and disconnect. The next one is the brake pipe (trainline), just like on a freight car. Its the larger of the 2 air lines and is located adjacent to the draft gear. The signal line is outboard of the brake pipe and its usually smaller in diameter. Both air lines use the same size glad-hand. If the brake pipe (trainline) is broken within a car, the signal line can be used until the trainline can be repaired. The brakes on the offending can must be bleed off and the brake cut out cock closed. Of course, the signal line is inoperable from that point to the rear of the train. There was also an electrical connection between Pullman cars so the adjacent porter could "cover" for a sleeping porter during the night. It was located at the upper side of the diaphragm. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg Ritacco Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:20 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:07:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Maybe I can shed some light on the connections between passengers cars. As you note there are 3 connections. The largest is the bottom one, steam line. The one you call "an articulated mechanical gizmo." This requires a hammer to connect and disconnect. The next one is the brake pipe (trainline), just like on a freight car. Its the larger of the 2 air lines and is located adjacent to the draft gear. The signal line is outboard of the brake pipe and its usually smaller in diameter. Both air lines use the same size glad-hand. If the brake pipe (trainline) is broken within a car, the signal line can be used until the trainline can be repaired. The brakes on the offending can must be bleed off and the brake cut out valve closed. Of course, the signal line is inoperable from that point to the rear of the train. There was also an electrical connection between Pullman cars so the adjacent porter could "cover" for a sleeping porter during the night. It was located at the upper side of the diaphragm. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg Ritacco Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:20 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidentally couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Meeting Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:29:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20040818.213616.772.9.jthomasmet@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcSFmXJ1BZrIMlkxQXi9hod6EH8NlgVnrEAQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, Guys, My computer crashed (virus) and I lost all the digital photo's I took at the Cincinnati meeting. As I recall, somebody posted their own photo's on the internet shortly after the meeting. Could he or someone else please contact me so I can look at them and download some to try to reconstruct my visit and memories? Thanks much. Doug Kirkpatrick kirkpat@charter.net Medford, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:53:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline Trains PSA From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... Branchline Trains will begin shipping 10-1-2 heavyweight kits on Sept. 20th. Pennsy 8-1-2's are currently still available. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:57:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE -- N Scale P85b Coaches From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <5346004F-0738-11D9-B2DC-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 15th of the month FOR SALE post... Full sets (6 numbers) of the second run of N scale InterMountain/Centralia Car Shops P85b coaches in the PENNSYLVANIA letterboard scheme. Contact me off-list if interested. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Employee Magazines Wanted Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:30:16 -0500 Message-ID: <5C7927ABD321EB458EF70953E0D053E80183742F@INDYSMAIL02.am.thmulti.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] FOR SALE -- N Scale P85b Coaches Thread-Index: AcSbSCzuRi28eMzlTQCKYbrZcZ3D1QAASN2Q From: "Colman Gerald \(TTE\)" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Sep 2004 17:30:17.0109 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAA53C50:01C49B49] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 15th of the month WANTED post... Looking for the following issues of the "Pennsy" magazine: '54 Sept '55 April, Jun, July, Aug '56 Mar, May, Sept, Dec Please contact off list if interested in selling. Thanks, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:44:32 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: Re: FA: PRR MP54 Kits by Walthers] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: FA: PRR MP54 Kits by Walthers Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:26:51 -0400 From: PRR-Talk To: Ellen & Garry >I have listed 3 MP53 kits, 1 MPB54 kit, and 1 pair of Brass Hyatt trucks > on ebay. > >MP54 Kits OB: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920410731 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920411827 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920412605 > >MPB Kit: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920414431 > >Brass trucks: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920410577 > >Garry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Inventory Reduction Sale Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:30:35 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have two new in the box Broadway Ltd. M1b's from the latest run = available at $210.00 ea. plus $7.00 UPS shipping. Your choice of #6762 = (stock #052) or #6744 (stock #053). Please contact me off list. = Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:53:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cabin cars at South Miller X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Recently an N5 & an N5c were placed on a piece of track next to South Miller siding on the Buffalo line 1/2 mile north of Millersburg,Pa. They have been purchased by Mark Wisniski of Satrun Surplus who owns the Army surplus business located along rt.147 there. An article in today's Upper Dauphin Sentinel shows a crane placing them there and details some of his plans to restore the N5C to its as-built appearance, complete with the "buy War Bonds' paint scheme. The N5 may be repainted Conrail and a third cabin is expected soon, although the artical gave no details of its class or former railroad owner. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subj.: B&O Museum X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A little good news for the railfan community. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum Reopens to the Public on Saturday, November 13, 2004 BALTIMORE, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum will celebrate the rebirth of its signature Roundhouse when it reopens its doors to the public the weekend of November 13-14, 2004. Visitors will be able to celebrate the complete restoration of the 1884 National Historic Landmark Roundhouse, and also experience some of the museum's expanded facilities. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20040915/PHW001-b ) During Presidents' Day weekend in 2003, a record-breaking snowstorm swept through the state of Maryland dumping a record three-foot snowfall onto the roof of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum's signature building, the National Historic Landmark 1884 Baldwin Roundhouse, causing a partial collapse of the roof and damaging some of the most important railroad locomotives and artifacts in the Western Hemisphere. The Museum staff, along with teams of architects, engineers, and construction crews, has worked tirelessly since the collapse to rebuild, restore and reopen this national treasure 22 months following the collapse. In November, visitors will celebrate the complete restoration of the historic Roundhouse. The Museum's Roundhouse is a 22-sided polygon and is the largest circular industrial building in the world. Designed by E. Frances Baldwin, the Roundhouse was completed in 1884. Throughout the restoration process, crews have worked to completely rebuild the lower roof, clerestory roof and lantern while preserving the original design of the building using modern materials. In addition to the Roundhouse restoration, visitors will experience some of the Museum's expanded facilities. The Museum will showcase new exhibition galleries featuring the Smithsonian's Railroad Model Collection, Railroad China and Silver, and Clocks, Pocket Watches and Railroad Time. Brand new interpretive panels will provide insight into the historical significance and the cultural aspects of different exhibits and the artifacts presented within. On the two new outdoor train exhibition platforms, visitors get an inside view of many of the Museum's trains unavailable to the public prior to the collapse. Displayed in the C&O #725 passenger car will be the new HO model train layout, which depicts the lay-of-the-land from Baltimore's port to the Mid-West. Visitors will also rediscover the most important and comprehensive collection of railroad locomotives and rolling stock in the Western Hemisphere. The Museum will now offer daily train rides along the "most historic railroad right of way in America" from April through December and during weekends in January. No train rides are scheduled during February and March. The Museum's first major event is Holiday Festival of Trains, a seasonal favorite and Museum tradition, beginning on Friday, November 26, 2004 and continuing throughout the holiday season until Thursday, December 30, 2004. The Museum will celebrate its Grand Reopening during Memorial Day Weekend 2005. The Museum will unveil its new state-of-the-art restoration facility and open the historic North Passenger Car Shop to the public. Other exhibits and expanded facilities will also be part of the celebration including a new living history center and family activity center. For more information on the Museum's reopening celebrations and programs, interested parties can visit http://www.borail.org or call 410-752-2490. About the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum, a full affiliate of the Smithsonian Institution, is dedicated to the preservation and interpretation of American railroading and its impact on American society, culture and economy. The Museum is home to the oldest, most comprehensive collection of railroad artifacts in the Western Hemisphere including an unparalleled roster of 19th and 20th century railroad equipment. The 40-acre historic site is regarded as the birthplace of American Railroading and includes the 1851 Mt. Clare Station, the 1884 Baldwin Roundhouse and first mile of commercial railroad track in America. In February 2003, a record-breaking snowstorm partially collapsed the roof of the 1884 Baldwin Roundhouse, the Museum's signature building and collections exhibit space. The focus of the Museum has been to restore, rebuild, and reopen this national treasure. The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum will reopen to the public on Saturday, November 13, 2004. A Grand Re- Opening Celebration will take place Memorial Day Weekend 2005. For ongoing updates on the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum, its restoration and re-opening celebrations, please visit http://www.borail.org. CONTACT: Amy Getz, 410-752-2462, ext. 214 agetz@borail.org SOURCE Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum CO: Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum; Smithsonian Institution ST: Maryland SU: Web site: http://www.borail.org .LEHIGH AND NEW ENGLAND the all Alco road to New England Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:40:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography revisited Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:40:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography revisited From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj.: B&O Museum Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:56:41 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, FWIW they may not have what many devoted SPF's may=20 consider enough PRR equipment they do have an Ex-PRR H39=20 painted in PC that last I saw was in ballast service for=20 them.=20 Also, I spent the middle week of August on site installing=20 the layout and got a chance to walk around and see the=20 changes. I had a great time, I can't descibe the feelings=20 felt when standing inside the restored roundhouse and=20 under the new canopies. I dare to even admit i've become a=20 now out of the closet B&O fan.=20 One pther piece of Pennsy content. Custom Model Railroads=20 of Baltimore built the layout. The only full-time custom=20 layout builder on the east coast. Makers of cut/engraved=20 acrylic kits, one of which bears a likeness to Baltimore's=20 Penn Station. You can visit at www.cmrtrain.com for more=20 information. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. RDG2124@aol.com wrote: A little good news for the railfan community. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum Reopens to the Public on=20 Saturday, November=20 13, 2004 On the two new outdoor train exhibition platforms,=20 visitors get an inside=20 view of many of the Museum's trains unavailable to the=20 public prior to the=20 collapse. Displayed in the C&O #725 passenger car will be=20 the new HO model train=20 layout, which depicts the lay-of-the-land from Baltimore's=20 port to the Mid-West.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:18:54 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:18:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6AD3AC74-0804-11D9-B776-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent hurricanes, but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow and causing a lot of tornados. We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce Smith (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to name a few. The I-10 bridge at Pensacola, for instance, has seen better times... http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_156_images/ 091604_ivan6.jpg Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:18:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6AD3AC74-0804-11D9-B776-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent hurricanes, but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow and causing a lot of tornados. We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce Smith (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to name a few. The I-10 bridge at Pensacola, for instance, has seen better times... http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_156_images/ 091604_ivan6.jpg Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] M1b's Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:48:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:58:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Some quick info on two M1b's: #6762 and #6744 > > Where found on the system? According to the MP229 dated March 1954, both were assigned to the Middle Division. According to the MP229 dated July 1957, both were assigned to the Pittsburgh Division. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:12:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Additional comments, but CONJECTURE... On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:58 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Chany, Christopher > wrote: > >> Some quick info on two M1b's: #6762 and #6744 >> >> Where found on the system? > > According to the MP229 dated March 1954, both were assigned to the > Middle Division. In one of Don Wood's books he noted that as of 1954, 50% of all freights in/out of Enola to/from the Middle Division were still headed by M1 power. > > According to the MP229 dated July 1957, both were assigned to the > Pittsburgh Division. By 1957, the Middle Division should have been fully dieselized. The M1's might now be serving as helpers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:22:57 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Eyewitness account: M-1's were still on the MD in the spring of 57. I saw them at Lewistown. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Chany, Christopher" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's > Additional comments, but CONJECTURE... > > On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:58 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Chany, Christopher > > wrote: > > > >> Some quick info on two M1b's: #6762 and #6744 > >> > >> Where found on the system? > > > > According to the MP229 dated March 1954, both were assigned to the > > Middle Division. > > In one of Don Wood's books he noted that as of 1954, 50% of all > freights in/out of Enola to/from the Middle Division were still headed > by M1 power. > > > > According to the MP229 dated July 1957, both were assigned to the > > Pittsburgh Division. > > By 1957, the Middle Division should have been fully dieselized. The > M1's might now be serving as helpers. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Scrap Dates: (according to Edson's roster) M1b 6762.. sold for scrap.......9/59 M1b 6744.. sold for scrap.......9/59 ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] 1361 Update & e-mail addresses for museums Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:20:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone from either of these lists give me one or more e-mail addresses for someone from the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum especially, and Steamtown? I would like someone who really knows what is going on with 1361, not just a general address or the contact address off the website. A few months ago I toured the Steamtown rebuild shop with the ranger in charge of the shop and shop tours. We spent quite a lot of time looking at and talking about 1361 and looking at all the parts in the shop. He really opened up, with history of the locomotives late operation on PRR, operation in excursion service since including the rebuild(s) since retirement, and what they found at Steamtown on first inspection and throughout the rebuild. He summarized work to be done. The only thing he couldn't comment on was estimated completion date - they're sworn to secrecy under penalty of death by slow torture, as far as I could tell. I took copious notes and wrote them up when I got home, and would like to post them to both lists. However, the museum(s) should see them first, and know I'm going to do it. However, it's information given in a National Park during a public tour, so I have every right to post it. I'd rather have the museum(s) comment to me first, and even endorse all or part of my notes, and especially know it's coming, as they will be flooded with e-mails etc. While I'm sure they moniter these lists, I would like to e-mail someone direct who will respond so I can send my comments to them right away for comment first. However, Railfest is approaching, rumors seem to be appearing again, and I feel I owe it to the railfan community to publish what I've been told. So, I will give them a few to several days to respond to me, then post the information if I haven't heard back. Thanks in advance. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:45:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Update & e-mail addresses for museums X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For Steamtown go to the following URL and post your question. http://www.nps.gov/stea/pphtml/contact.html Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:29:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Branchline Passenger car survey sort of X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I agree with Eddie. We do need some RTR but still keep the kit form also. PRR Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:25:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Branchline X43B box car kits come with a roof that is mostly black to simulate application of a waterproof coating. = Can anyone confirm that these cars actually received such a coating when = new? If so, would the coating have also covered the roof walk = (Branchline supplies a black one in the kit) or just the roof panels? = Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:15:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone tell me whether K4s were ever used for priority freight--like a block of reefers instead of reefers with passenger service--in the mid-50s? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Branchline Passenger car survey sort of > I agree with Eddie. We do need some RTR but still keep the kit form also. > > PRR Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:21:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I don't think it lasted into the mid-50's but I seem to have read somewhere that the early Merchandise Service LCL trains out of Polk St. Frt. Station near Chicago Union Station occasionally used a K4. Can't remember where I read it, Keystone or online. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" > Can anyone tell me whether K4s were ever used for priority freight--like a > block of reefers instead of reefers with passenger service--in the mid-50s? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:43:48 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] 1361 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:52:07 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] 1361 Updates Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:52:07 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] 1361 Updates From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:55:34 +0000 >From: "TCJ Riggs" >Subject: [PRR] Use of K4s >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:15:09 -0400 >From: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Branchline Passenger car survey sort of From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:13:42 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dateline 8-1-1938, Chicago Il, http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/fav3870.jpg Doubleheaded K4s's on reefer train.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:25:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > The make-up of trains for a date I beliee in September 1953 or 1954 > appeared in several issues of Rails Northeast in the late 1970s. You > may have copies of this magazine. Rails Northeast ran 1953 consist information. While a lot remained the same, I will note that -- having the original 1954 data on-hand -- a lot actually changed between 1953 and 1954. A lot of heavyweight sleepers were phased out and a lot of diner assignments were changed. Most of the lightweight sleeper assignments were the same. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Subject: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:56:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <96913E48-08CA-11D9-9570-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:56:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <96913E48-08CA-11D9-9570-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:07:54 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Asphaltum paint sounds like it would be very thick like tar. Did it apply smoothly like paint or show brush or mop marks after application? Could be a chance to brush paint something for a change. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." : -------------- > Frank; > This issue got batted around before. No one has an overhead shot of the > X43B. However, the painting instructions to the builder (AC&F?) called for > the roof to be painted with Asphaltum, which is black. There was no call > for it to be painted over, which a builder might have been very cognizant > about, given the extra expense. The one good color shot I have seen of this > car seems to show the roof ribs peeking out above the edges of the car > sides, and seem to be black. > > That being said, the PRR also clearly painted the roofs FCC in their own > shops. The instructions are unclear enough that shop folks could have just > overshot the whole deal with FCC. This is clear on many other cars we have > overhead photos of. > > The bottom line is, until an overhead shot of an X43B turns up, you may not > get a definitive answer. I am leaving my BL X43Bs as furnished. I believe > these cars were not painted on the roofs until repainted in SK schemes by > the PRR, if then. > > Elden Gatwood > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park > Varieties > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:26 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Roof Color > > The Branchline X43B box car kits come with a roof > that is mostly black to simulate application of a waterproof coating. Can > anyone confirm that these cars actually received such a coating when new? > If so, would the coating have also covered the roof walk (Branchline > supplies a black one in the kit) or just the roof panels? Thanks. > Frank Brua > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:25:55 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm Bell asked: "Asphaltum paint sounds like it would be very thick like tar. Did it apply smoothly like paint or show brush or mop marks after application? Could be a chance to brush paint something for a change." Surprisingly, prototype photos of cars that received this non-skid paint don't show much texture at all. What they do show is an almost dead flat appearance. I've modeled this effect using matte black paint, either airbrushed or from a spray bomb. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:39:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 From: ANGELA SUTTON Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:59:51 -0400 Subject: Re: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: undef - spam-scanning disabled X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For an additional, albeit distant, photo, Walter Feibelman's "Rails to Pittsburgh" contains a photo of a K4 at Pitcairn yards with a freight tender including doghouse, c. 1948-49. No explanation of what service it was performing there, though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:58:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Scott and all: Since I'm the one that threw the bomb, I believe I should acknowledge your post by saying that I appreciate your response. And I will put my money where my mouth is and you will receive a decent check from me within the next few weeks. I challenge others to do the same!!! I don't know which list (s) you refer to, but I like others, cannot, subscribe to a unlimited lists. If the updates are posted, would you please Cc: this list??? Lots of SPF on this list. One question which BEGS for an answer is: Do your plans include restoration to operating condition and where will the operations take place??? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "director " To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:43 AM Subject: [PRR] 1361 > As posted on more than one list/bulletin board, etc, the project is fully funded, understaffed (we are searching, so far in vain, for a full-time machinist), and on-track to be finished in the late summer/early fall of 2005. There is a task list/work plan prepared by Andy Spurlock at Starfire Engineering listing approximately 125 tasks of varying complexities that need to be completed. Nobody is keeping anything secret from anyone. > > Anyone who feels a sense of "ownership" of any piece of historic equipment, not just 1361, should make sure that they are willing to finance the organization charged with the restoration, preservation, and/or operation of that equipment. You can "finance" your "ownership" claim with money, volunteer time, or simply acting as a goodwill ambassador on behalf of the organization. > > Anyone wishing to donate to the Museum in order to facilitate the future operation and maintenance of the Museum and locomotive is most welcome to do so. Watch for web updates as we now have a person who has stepped forward to volunteer his time to compile progess reports and photos for everyone to keep abreast of the project - something we simply do not have the paid staff to accomplish. > > Scott Cessna > Executive Director > Railroaders Memorial Museum > Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:35:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, As a new participant in this list, I very much appreciate your knowledgeable answers to this and my one previous question. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Ted Andrews" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:13 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s > > > Dateline 8-1-1938, Chicago Il, > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/fav3870.jpg > > Doubleheaded K4s's on reefer train.....Gary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The trucks in the pic of that PRR 12-1 Pullman are the same as those shown earlier on the B&O car. Are they correct for Pennsy? If so, what era? They look like top-equalized trucks to my amateur eyes. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. > > Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is > ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The > Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison > between the two as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The trucks in the pic of that PRR 12-1 Pullman are the same as those shown earlier on the B&O car. Are they correct for Pennsy? If so, what era? They look like top-equalized trucks to my amateur eyes. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. > > Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is > ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The > Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison > between the two as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:10:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70 FBR Eastern Car Works From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:47:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70 FBR Eastern Car Works From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/18/04 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:07:54 +0000 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:25:55 +0000 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: "robert netzlof" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] RPM Meet in Perry Ohio Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:39:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Is anyone from these lists going to be at the RPM Meet in Perry Ohio next weekend? I'll be there for the PRRT&HS and NKPHTS. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:07:59 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List , I'm trying to get to Jerry's Keystone Crossing page and I'm getting a = bad Gateway message when I try to enter the address . Does anyone have a = different address than the one I'm using ......( http://kc.pennsyrr.com = )=20 Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chris Brandt" Subject: [PRR] Small obelisk near ARSENAL. Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:10:04 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm=20sitting=20at=2030th=20St,=20which=20now=20has=20wireless=20internet=20= :) Just=20took=20the=20Septa=20R1=20from=20the=20airport=20and=20noticed=20on= =20the=20way=20a=20small=20obelisk=20near=20the=20tracks=20just=20before=20= ARSENAL. It=20has=20markings=20on=20the=20base,=20but=20I=20couldn't=20make=20any=20= of=20them=20out=20--=20going=20by=20too=20fast. Anyone=20know=20the=20significance=20of=20it? Chris PRRTHS=20#6285 ______________________________________________________________________ This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20by=20the=20MessageLabs=20Email=20Sec= urity=20System. For=20more=20information=20please=20visit=20http://www.messagelabs.com/ema= il=20 ______________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chris Brandt" Subject: [PRR] Small obelisk near ARSENAL. Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:10:04 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm=20sitting=20at=2030th=20St,=20which=20now=20has=20wireless=20internet=20= :) Just=20took=20the=20Septa=20R1=20from=20the=20airport=20and=20noticed=20on= =20the=20way=20a=20small=20obelisk=20near=20the=20tracks=20just=20before=20= ARSENAL. It=20has=20markings=20on=20the=20base,=20but=20I=20couldn't=20make=20any=20= of=20them=20out=20--=20going=20by=20too=20fast. Anyone=20know=20the=20significance=20of=20it? Chris PRRTHS=20#6285 ______________________________________________________________________ This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20by=20the=20MessageLabs=20Email=20Sec= urity=20System. For=20more=20information=20please=20visit=20http://www.messagelabs.com/ema= il=20 ______________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:37:12 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mike: That is the correct address -- it is working now, but wasn't earlier. I'm pretty sure Jerry has been off-line lately due to the remnants of Ivan which hit the area earlier this weekend (I live about 5 miles from Jerry)... I haven't talked to him, but most small streams are over their banks locally and the Susquehanna is expected to crest about 4 feet over flood stage late Sunday... None of this should affect the site or the list anymore, but many people locally have had no power or no phone service from late Friday until recently... I went to the grocery store earlier today and ended up needing 3 detours around flooded roadways... That said, since the list and website are back up, I'm guessing Jerry is fine... Jeff Warner michael hmel wrote: >Hello List , >I'm trying to get to Jerry's Keystone Crossing page and I'm getting a bad Gateway message when I try to enter the address . Does anyone have a different address than the one I'm using ......( http://kc.pennsyrr.com ) >Thanks , >Mike Hmel > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] keystone crossing page Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:43:45 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List; I tried Jerry's sites also and am getting "Page not found" = messages........... Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] keystone crossing page Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:43:45 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List; I tried Jerry's sites also and am getting "Page not found" = messages........... Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:57:57 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] OT: Open house -- Harrisburg/York, PA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all: I will be having an open house of my layout on Saturday, Sept 25th from 1 PM to 5 PM located between Harrisburg and York, PA (there is another layout about 15 minutes away also open the same day -- e-mail me for more info)... The layout features Pennsylvania, Reading, and Western Maryland railroads and uses the Digitrax (DCC) and C/MRI (signalling) systems. It is a two deck HO scale layout in a 22' x 36' basement. If anyone is interested, more info on the layout can be found at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/warner/ Directions to my house can be found at: http://operators.pennsyrr.com/directions_jeff.ws4d For more information, contact me at either jeff@pennsyrr.com or jeffrywarner@suscom.net. Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:07:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A coworker, who is getting into the hobby and reading every railroad related thing he can lay his hands on, recently passed on this tidbit. The signal used on American railroads to warn at a grade crossings is two long blasts, a short blast followed by a final long blast held until the train enters the crossing. This pattern is also the Morse code letter Q. According to my coworker, this signal was used by British ships to signal when the Queen was aboard, and when sounded all other ships allowed this ship priority of passage. Sounds like a good story to me. Anyone on the list know if this is true? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:36:55 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, I talked to Jerry last night and he got 18" of water in=20 his basement. He's been pre-occupied with that, save for=20 coming to an Op session last night. Before he left last=20 night he said his wife finished squeegeing the water out=20 of the basement. My best guess is things should be=20 underway by today or tomorrow. -John Jeff Warner wrote: Mike: That is the correct address -- it is working now, but=20 wasn't earlier.=20 I'm pretty sure Jerry has been off-line lately due to the=20 remnants of Ivan which hit the area earlier this weekend=20 (I live about 5 miles from Jerry)... I haven't talked to=20 him, but most small streams are over their banks locally=20 and the Susquehanna is expected to crest about 4 feet over=20 flood stage late Sunday... None of this should affect the=20 site or the list anymore, but many people locally have had=20 no power or no phone service from late Friday until=20 recently... I went to the grocery store earlier today and=20 ended up needing 3 detours around flooded roadways... That said, since the list and website are back up, I'm=20 guessing Jerry is fine... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-Talk list" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:36:14 -0400 To: "michael hmel" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 18, 2004, at 5:07 PM, michael hmel wrote: > I'm trying to get to Jerry's Keystone Crossing page and I'm getting a > bad Gateway message when I try to enter the address . Does anyone have > a different address than the one I'm using ......( > http://kc.pennsyrr.com ) Hmmm.... could it be hurricane Ivan? Yup... 18" of water!!! The sump pump burned up BEFORE the rain started. We worked on getting a new pump installed as water poured in... but we were too far behind the eight ball. Fortunately we were a lot more mobile this time around and losses were nill, other than an emergency plumber call and the decision to go with a commercial sump pump replacement. Getting real tired of modeling with real water!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:39:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com dougnelson@mindspring.com writes: The trucks in the Walthers photo look like Pullman 242 trucks which were correct for about half the 12-1s in PRR service. Doug Nelson Doug and all, Correct the Walthers 12-1 will have the 242 trucks. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:54:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/19/2004 10:12:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > The signal used on American railroads to warn at a grade crossings is two > long blasts, a short blast followed by a final long blast held until the > train > enters the crossing. This pattern is also the Morse code letter Q. > According > to my coworker, this signal was used by British ships to signal when the > Queen was aboard, and when sounded all other ships allowed this ship > priority of > passage. > It is true that - - . - is Q in International Morse code. But railroads used an earlier and different version, right? What is Q in that code? And when did the - - . - signal become common on railroads? And why would American land railroads have copied a British nautical custom? Sounds like further research is required. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:13:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/18/04 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Carl writes: Here is another example of paint names having different meanings. As you all know, paint color names are also misleading; like the guy who bought a bottle of "zinc chromate" paint and was surprised to see that it was a yellowish green. Carl P. Izzo Carl, My first encounter with a can of zinc chromate primer was RUSTOLEUM in the late 60's and as I expected it was a yellow-green. This was the same color used to prime aluminum in the aircraft industry. I always questioned the FLOQUIL Zinc Chromate Primer as it was an oxide color which I equated to the RUSTOLEUM Damp-Proof Primer. One benefit of the old RUSTOLEUM Damp Proof Primer was that you could apply it to a damp surface as it displaced the moisture. I have always wondered if this quality was one of the reasons for the paint used by the rail car manufacturers resembled Damp Proof Primer type products. It appeared to be nearly the same as Damp Proof Primer and have the oxide qualities of displacing moisture and thus making it easier to paint cars in environments where the controls were less than advantageous compared to say those like the auto industry. I only wish that we could discover a perfectly preserved can of 40's era FCC to fully test its qualities, not just the color. Being a once paint salesman in my teenage years I find the subject of paint interesting especially if you understand how it was made then... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:41:26 -0500 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen, now grade crossing X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello All The 1925 PRR Rule Book showed: "(l) -- -- o o Approaching public crossings at grade, and, when view is obscured by weather and other conditions, approaching interlocking plants, stations, yards or other points where men may be at work on tracks." Now what that is in Morse Code is for someone else to say. Morgan Bilbo PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Water in basement Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:41:04 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & list, Message said Jerry had 18" of water in basement & wife finished squeegeeing it out. A small wet/dry shop vac (Sears, Lowes, etc.) is superb. Carole & I can't lift our 8 gallon model with more than 4 gallons in it to empty, so no need for a large one. From hard floor it sucks up 4 gal. or more literally in a few seconds. Amazing on rugs, but sucks so hard difficult to move attachment! Good luck. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: abendschein@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:40:23 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:48:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: power failures and sump pumts etc, a friend in Detroit bought a natural gas generator with auto start which runs itself for a few minutes per week (all programable). Did have to have a larger natural gas line installed. If power goes off electricity is back on in 10 seconds or less (his takes 6-8!). Cost installed was amazingly low. Can send website of manufacturer (he bought turn-key) system. His is quite large and he has a monstrouly huge house. Runs all but A/C. He only has to re-set the digital clocks etc. Let me know if you want info & website of manufacturer. I even have a photo with pictures and captions if anyone wants, or a website with pictures posted. Best, Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Natural Gas Generator Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:59:03 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, I am receiving enough inquiries about the fully automatic, cost = effective, natural gas generator that I am posting the complete = information to the list including original e-mail from my friend John = including cost with turn-key installation of his unit, URL's for the = manufacturer and the generator (list on left gives details of the = specific product), and URL for pictures of John's installation with = captions. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Timing is everything, and I lucked out with the "Big Blackout" = last month; we've had numerous power failures here over the last year, and I = have a portable 4500-watt generator, but we have to be home to hook it up and = run it. We had two failures in June when we were gone over weekends and lost = two freezers full of food both times, so I finally bit the bullet and had a fully-automatic Generac 20-KW natural gas-powered standby generator = system installed in July (pic attached). We don't have to be home, don't have = to touch anything - it fires up when the power drops out, shuts off when = the power comes back on, and starts itself up once a week for ten minutes = and does a self-diagnostic check so it's always ready to go. When the power dropped out on the 14th, we had full power eight seconds later - all we = had to do was re-set the digital clocks. More photos and details at: (see = below). It was $6,400.00 installed, complete turnkey job by a professional standby generator contractor/Generac distributor; gas company had to = replace the meter with a high-flow version with two regulators on it - one feeds = the existing house gas piping at the standard residential 0.6 psi, and the = other one feeds a new 2-1/4" gas pipe to feed the generator at 2.0 psi. Our electric utility (DTE - Detroit Edison) has a division that also = installs standby generator systems, and they quoted me $14,900.00 for EXACTLY the same system; turns out they hire the same independent contractors to = install the systems, pay the contractor, then mark that up 125% and bill their customers - what's wrong with this picture? http://www.generac.com/ Generac (manufacturer) home page http://www.generac.com/industrial/products/RLC_Series.asp Descriprition = of Generac natural gas automatic generator http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=3D359956 Pictures = of John's installed generator with captions =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Good luck! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Water in basement Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:17:58 -0400 To: "William Bigler" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 19, 2004, at 2:41 PM, William Bigler wrote: > Message said Jerry had 18" of water in basement & wife finished > squeegeeing > it out. A small wet/dry shop vac (Sears, Lowes, etc.) is superb. > Carole & > I can't lift our 8 gallon model with more than 4 gallons in it to > empty, so > no need for a large one. From hard floor it sucks up 4 gal. or more > literally in a few seconds. Amazing on rugs, but sucks so hard > difficult to > move attachment! Bill: Thanks for the tought. KNowing the water was coming, we got most of the stuff out of the basement. But we figured it would only be a few inches, since they were calling for, and we got, significantly less rain than the flood of six weeks ago. Anyway, we have a wet vac and left it in the basement figuring water would never get to the motor. It did. I thought it better to let it dry before plugging it in. I went to an op session last night while a pump was still pumping out the basement. When the water was mostly clear the wife started pushing water into the new sump rather than firing up the wet vac. The wet vac, by the way, worked fine this morning. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Randy Williamson" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Natural Gas Generator Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:19:44 -0400 To: "William Bigler" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I really do appreciate the thoughts, tips, etc., that are coming in regarding our (and others) plight with hurricane Ivan, but let's get the list back on topic. No harm, no foul. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Water in basement Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:46:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & list, I've used a hair dryer on electrical items that have gotten wet (take housing off if possible), then plug it into an outlet with a ground fault interrupter. Test the outlet first with something you know didn't get wet first, just to be sure. Never had a problem with this approach. If item is very expensive, however, caution and prudence are best. Bill Jerry said: I thought it better to let it dry before plugging it in. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Marysville Subway Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know when the Marysville Subway (I think that's what it's called) was built and whether Pennsy built it? It's an awesome stone underpass under the Pennsy mainline in downtown Marysville. First time I saw it I was speechless (totally rare!). Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:56:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Marysville Subway Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:21:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent > hurricanes, but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow > and causing a lot of tornados. > > We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce > Smith (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to > name a few. Jerry and all, Thanks for the thoughts! I'm finally back on-line. We got off very lucky although we have been "camping" since Thursday without any power... Aside from dodging a few near miss tornadoes Thursday AM, we have no damage locally except a few downed trees (and the power lines into the neighborhood). Of course, that did make it difficult to build any PRR models... candlelight not being ideal for decaling and no power for my compressor! I did manage to clean off some of the castings for my F&C H30. Hope we hear from Steve Hoxie soon. Pensacola is a rough place right now. No food, no water, no sanitation. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:53:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:31:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 From: Gary Rowe Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:31:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 From: Gary Rowe From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Marysville Subway Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:53:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This went under the Marysville yard, didn't it. Larry Denton ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Marysville Subway > Does anyone know when the Marysville Subway (I think that's what it's > called) was built and whether Pennsy built it? It's an awesome stone > underpass under the Pennsy mainline in downtown Marysville. First time I > saw it I was speechless (totally rare!). > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:42:52 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Make way for the Queen X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [68.163.98.228] at Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:42:41 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This question was cross-posted to the Passenger Car List, arriving for me from that list first. I supplied the following answer, so I might as well cross-answer my 2 cents here: I can't comment on the ship story, but as to the grade crossing signal being the letter "Q," it is not relevant to railroads. The signal _ _ o _ is only "Q" in International or Continental code (two names for the same code). Railroads used Morse Code, AKA American Morse, in which the letter Q is o o _ o. [Railroads] have never, to my knowledge, used International or Continental code. There is no use of _ _ o _ in Morse code. Many railroads once used the signal _ _ o o for grade crossings. The KCS, for instance, still had a timetable note in the 1940's, changing this signal to the one used today. There were many different whistle signals, needed for communication before the advent of train radios. The grade crossing signal, as well as warning motorists, teamsters, etc., distinguished the signal from the other signals. ---------- BTW, the Phillips Code is not a dot-dash code, but a "shorthand" system of abbreviating words and phrases for more rapid communication. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:20:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj.: B&O Museum From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Listers, > > FWIW they may not have what many devoted SPF's may > consider enough PRR equipment they do have an Ex-PRR H39 > painted in PC that last I saw was in ballast service for > them. The wreck derrick on display is an ex-PRR 120 ton derrick (ie the Tichy kit). In addition, they have a nice collection of (non-PRR) steam era freight cars that were very accessible the last time I was there (prior to the collapse). I got several complete underbody series for later projects . Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:00:08 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Marysville Subway Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Bill, Jerry and the List: The Marysville Subway was built by contractor Harry S. Kerbaugh & Co. (builder of the west half of the present stone-and-concrete Rockville Bridge) during the span of time that the bridge was under construction. Thus, it's no surprise that it resembles the architecture of the bridge and that the chief masonry building material (pink sandstone chiefly from Clearfield and Cambria counties) is identical. Kerbaugh also held the contract for rearranging the main line approach to the west side of the present bridge, so it's easy to understand that he had a force of several hundred men at work on multiple projects in a small area -- the bridge, the approach and new "passenger" main line, and the subway, which was part of the overall r-o-w realignment. Passing beneath the Marysville yard near the former location of the Marysville roundhouse, the subway eliminated three grade crossings that had become known as death traps. Kerbaugh began work on the subway in May 1901 and completed it on December 19, 1901. For reference, work on the Rockville Bridge was begun in April 1900 and the first regular train crossed on March 30, 1902. Locally, the PRR term "subway," meaning "underpass," remains in common use today. One of the indices of the severity of river flooding on the Susquehanna and Juniata -- certainly a headline topic this weekend -- is whether the Duncannon Subway (built by Drake & Strattan, the contractor for the east half or the present Rockville Bridge) is passable or impassable, and always reported as such in the local print and broadcast media. The local weathercaster for Harrisburg's ABC network affiliate WHTM-TV, Chuck Rhodes, lives near Duncannon so he always reports it that way and often jokes about Duncannon having a "subway" but never drops the use of the term because everyone locally knows it as such. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ---------------------------------------------- William Bigler wrote: >Does anyone know when the Marysville Subway (I think that's what it's >called) was built and whether Pennsy built it? It's an awesome stone >underpass under the Pennsy mainline in downtown Marysville. First time I >saw it I was speechless (totally rare!). > >Bill Bigler - 4915 >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:03:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <002001c499de$6d272d50$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob Zoeller wrote: "Only reason I am being so persistent (polite word for it :-)) is from a modeling standpoint. It would be fun to throw an LCL container car and a Merchandise X40b on the headend with R50bs and B60bs following. I'd just like to know if it was a regular thing. With thousands of photos out there, seeing only one with this consist mix doesn't satisfy me." Bob, thanks for the scan of this photo. Based on the evidence gathered so far, I don't believe that the caption is correct. I couldn't find any other examples of such a consist in my PRR sources, but I did find a clue among my SP sources. On page 46 of Tom Dill's "Southern Pacific's Historic Overland Route - A Color Pictorial," there are two photos of an SP express extra taken in December 1956. The train is powered by freight service F-7s, has a mixed consist of baggage cars and ordinary boxcars (including a PRR Class B60B), and has a caboose on the rear end. The caption states that these extras, run on passenger train schedules, were common during the holidays, necessitated by Christmas mail and packages. While the full foliage in the photo in question discounts Christmastime, the mix of cars powered by freight service locomotives certainly fits this pattern. I believe what we're seeing here is a solid express train. With no passenger accommodations, a steam generator-equipped locomotive was not needed. I wouldn't be surprised if a cabin was at the rear of this train. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:11:59 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ~I'd appreciate thoughts on a solution but it appears that Branchline has ~made a major error with this kit -- a real shame since we need these models ~and can't get them elsewhere. A *major* error?! Lord, what are we demanding of kit manufacturers now? Hardly major - the wrong length or too many windows would be major, but this is the sort of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller rather than a runner of preassembled models should be able to fix with a minimum of effort. Should we have to fix them? In a perfect world, no, but tool makers and designers are human and what is a generous clearance in 1/1 becomes a fractional tolerance in HO. Trim the beams with a file to clear the centre sills or relocate them- either will be a compromise with dead scale, but one that is necessary if you want a working model. Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:53:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] CT470 late 1890s MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings,Can anyone tell me what a CT470 was used for? I found a few in a yard sale for a couple of bits the other day. That old style writing is hard to read. The one I can seems to be talking about mismatched bearings between 52638 and 52636. I assume these numbers or car numbers not part numbers.thanks --Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:18:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:18:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:30:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR] postwar 10-6's and 4-4-2's From: Frederick Ripley From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:06:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, you can check the archives on Pennsy-Talk as this has been discussed quite a bit (including by me). Based upon existing photos, there are 1939-40 cars in postwar paint scheme with skirting and upper berth windows, there are 1939-40 cars with abbreviated or no skirting and plated over upper berth windows, but I cannot find any evidence that any 1939-40 car existed in the configuration modeled by Walthers, that is, postwar paint scheme, no skirting, but upper berth windows. The conclusion by those more in the know than I am is that at the time skirting was removed, the windows were plated over. That said, I still run em until I can get around to modeling plated over windows neatly and matching the paint, which given my backlog of projects, is probably never. I am also hoping someone models a 1948 version of the 4-4-2. The 1938 cars lasted until well into the 60's, but the premier trains usually got the 1948 versions. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" > My question is the following: of the 4-4-2 schemes, the writer describes > one as postwar, w/out skirting, but with the upper birth windows, and adds > "Yikes!". > > "Yikes" doesn't sound good- is it the windows that are wrong? I would like > to have one of these cars, still in use in extra service in the 1960's, but > not if it has a major problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:29:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As someone who has been modeling for 50 years and still can come up with monumental screwups, I agree with your sentiments in general. However, the original poster made some disparaging remarks about the BL car, indicating he would have to wait for a version that did not have problems, implying that somehow Branchline had screwed up. I held back my original post, but I will now gently note that there are some mechanical laws at work here. You takes your choice. Fairly exact prototypical underbody details or a car which will run on typical (not broad) model railroad curves. In this case you do not get to have your cake and eat it too. You can modify the precisely modeled Branchline car or you can wait for a Walthers version. I suspect the latter will run on model railroad curves out of the box reasonably well. I also suspect the underbody detail will not match that of the BL car. Your choice. In the post I cancelled, I planned to say that the poster is fortunate not to have a $300 brass RPO like I have. I run it on Bachmann trucks because otherwise it shorts even on 40 inch radius curves with the detailed underbody rigging it has. I chose not to unsolder all the detail (figuring there might be a 100-1 chance I would sell the car someday) and instead go with the plastic trucks, albeit not the greatest truck models in the world (weathering does wonders :-)) Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "MICHAEL MERCURE" (big snip)> > Every so often I become very upset when someone asks a > question which may seem "stupid" or "silly" to an > individual, and that individual chooses to belittle > the question with comments such as "this is the sort > of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller > rather than a runner of preassembled models should be > able to fix with a minimum of effort." etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:06:55 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-reply-to: <20040921022859.4964.qmail@web80503.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Since my comment would seem to have generated this thread, let me respond. I know the list is inhabited by people of various levels of experience. If my wording was so crude as to give cause for minor upset than that is my fault. I had hoped to perhaps manage expectations of what you might get with such a kit rather than issue a crude put-down, which is how the comment seems to have been taken. Nonetheless, I stand by my remark that this is a trivial fit issue and not the huge manufacturing faux-pas that was suggested. Buy certain importer's fancy brass passenger cars and see exactly the same problem on very expensive models - now that _is_ a major error Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:18:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- Ken McCorry http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:18:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- Ken McCorry http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:56:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's- comments from Greg Martin From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:30:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-72 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: ggb3@juno.com X-ContentStamp: 16:8:3160814455 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The only reason someone would demean another on here is because the one putting down has a weak over enlarged ego and feels the need to build one's self up by putting another down. Closed minds obviously have nothing more to learn except when to keep their keyboard shut. Maybe some counseling regarding inferiority issues might be in order. Remember we talk about the Standard Railroad of the World. I was four years old when the PRR merged and then died. I sure as %$#@ don't know everything about it. I'm here to learn about it and have learned invaluable information here. We're all here for the same reason TO LEARN. WHO CARES what aspect you want to learn about. I was told when learning my craft on the railroad that the only dumb questions are those not asked. In that arena asking just might save my life or someone elses. ASK AWAY!!!!!! George On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:22:59 -0500 "Ken Hough " writes: > Nicely put. This and the Yahoo lists have LOTS of members who I'm > sure are novices or modelers with less experience that are afraid to > > post and do not. I hope they start now. It would be nice to see some > > new screen names. > Ken > > It seems to me that the main reason for creating a > list group such as "PRR-talk" is to help each other > out with questions and problems that are encountered > in regards to the PRR, whether it be its history or > modeling. > > Every so often I become very upset when someone asks a > question which may seem "stupid" or "silly" to an > individual, and that individual chooses to belittle > the question with comments such as "this is the sort > of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller > rather than a runner of preassembled models should be > able to fix with a minimum of effort." > > This type of comment tends to make others hesitate to > ask any questions, no matter how silly or stupid that > question may seem -- and I don't think that is the > mission of this list. > > Perhaps individuals should think about their comment > before making that type of comment. If this person > knew the answer to the question or how to fix the > problem, he wouldn't have asked it in the first place. > > Come on guys -- be sensitive. Most of us are NOT > PERFECT, DO NOT PROFESS TO "KNOW IT ALL", and do ask > "DUMB" questions, in the eyes of some people. > > I enjoy this list very much and have learned untold > amounts from it -- both historical and in modeling. > It was my love of the PRR and model railroading of the > PRR that made me join it -- as I am sure is the case > with most of us. Please don't discourage that by > being demeaning to the individual asking a question. > > I thank all those who make it possible -- both in > maintaining the list and answering questions and > sharing information. > > Regards. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:49:22 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can someone steer me to an online reference to the above, with spotting = tips? My question is inspired by the P2K GP9 Phase I with QSI sound = announced. No PRR, but the undec appeals if Pennsy ever had one of = these. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:49:22 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can someone steer me to an online reference to the above, with spotting = tips? My question is inspired by the P2K GP9 Phase I with QSI sound = announced. No PRR, but the undec appeals if Pennsy ever had one of = these. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:05:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken writes: Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- Ken McCorry I would hope the smoke unit is an option I don't have to pay for... It is for the Toy Train Enthusiast... I sure hope they get the DGLE color closer than it was on their J1... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:54:14 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg/all: Reading the MTH website closer (there are about 6 screens of info, not just the one Ken sent the link to), it does appear that DCC users will be able to directly control sounds (like the annoying station annoucements) and the smoke unit. While we may still have to pay for it, at least we can turn it off!!! It will be interesting to see if these are marketed toward the "toy train enthusiast" or the "serious modeler" or some combination. I guess time will tell... Jeff Warner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Online Commentary Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:35:19 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List... I missed the beginning of the current "flame war"... busy with drying out my basement for the second time in two months and other more important things. I'm not going to play Monday morning QB and go back and see who said what, but responding to what I have picked up on: Please be tolerant of queries that you feel are overly basic, etc. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You don't need to agree, but you do need to respect it. Keep the commentary clean. Let's get back to the Pennsy and leave the current situation behind us. Thanks. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:32:24 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I like it that they do include enginehouse assignments on=20 the pilots, though for some that would be doing=20 prototypical modeling, even myself may need to change=20 them. A deciding factor for myself would be how much retail will=20 be. That price, 399.99, is comparible to BLI's 450.00 but=20 I know right now i'm sitll leaning towards BLI,=20 considering I can get mine for just over $300.00. The good thing is quality steam, comparible to brass is=20 coming out. Where's that H-class and I-class? Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:05:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I wish MTH would have chosen a different locomotive to do, such as a H. As far as the future goes, I would think an I is a sure bet, but what about after that? Will we see either of the S's? How about some H's? Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:24:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As we have all been told somewhere along the line, the only dumb question is the one we don't ask! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "MICHAEL MERCURE" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List > It seems to me that the main reason for creating a > list group such as "PRR-talk" is to help each other > out with questions and problems that are encountered > in regards to the PRR, whether it be its history or > modeling. > > Every so often I become very upset when someone asks a > question which may seem "stupid" or "silly" to an > individual, and that individual chooses to belittle > the question with comments such as "this is the sort > of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller > rather than a runner of preassembled models should be > able to fix with a minimum of effort." > > This type of comment tends to make others hesitate to > ask any questions, no matter how silly or stupid that > question may seem -- and I don't think that is the > mission of this list. > > Perhaps individuals should think about their comment > before making that type of comment. If this person > knew the answer to the question or how to fix the > problem, he wouldn't have asked it in the first place. > > Come on guys -- be sensitive. Most of us are NOT > PERFECT, DO NOT PROFESS TO "KNOW IT ALL", and do ask > "DUMB" questions, in the eyes of some people. > > I enjoy this list very much and have learned untold > amounts from it -- both historical and in modeling. > It was my love of the PRR and model railroading of the > PRR that made me join it -- as I am sure is the case > with most of us. Please don't discourage that by > being demeaning to the individual asking a question. > > I thank all those who make it possible -- both in > maintaining the list and answering questions and > sharing information. > > Regards. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:29:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff: I'd trade a lot of the MTH optional sounds for siderod clank. The Soundtraxx Tsunami Claims to have it included. Yea! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Greg/all: > > Reading the MTH website closer (there are about 6 screens of info, not > just the one Ken sent the link to), it does appear that DCC users will > be able to directly control sounds (like the annoying station > annoucements) and the smoke unit. While we may still have to pay for > it, at least we can turn it off!!! > > It will be interesting to see if these are marketed toward the "toy > train enthusiast" or the "serious modeler" or some combination. I guess > time will tell... > > Jeff Warner > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:37:48 -0500 To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 21, 2004, at 7:05 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > I wish MTH would have chosen a different locomotive to do, such as a > H. As far as the future goes, I would think an I is a sure bet, but > what about after that? Will we see either of the S's? How about some > H's? > Eric I keep saying this! Market, market, market!! Really, the only surprise is that BLI waited so long before doing a K4. The K4 is a "signature" loco, like the GG1, or for that matter the T1, where even non-PRR modelers (ie collectors, toy train folks, etc) have to have at least one. Since those folks WAY out number the serious PRR modeler, our purchase of multiples of one loco does not come close to duplicating the numbers sold to the unwashed masses... Will an I1 be forthcoming? Sure! Other PRR steamers? You bet! An H? Maybe... but the market for these simply does not compare (not that it is not sufficient, just not as big) as the market for something like a K4, which like the market for F units, is probably big enough to sustain more than one company... The good news is that there is now another fish in the pond that might be persuaded to make a streamlined K4! Oh yeah, I bet the MTH locos have BEMF decoders ;^) But what's this about 120 speed steps...ain't they heard its 128? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:54:29 -0500 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 21, 2004, at 7:29 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > Jeff: > > I'd trade a lot of the MTH optional sounds for siderod clank. The > Soundtraxx Tsunami Claims to have it included. Yea! > > Larry I would too, but when will we actually SEE a Tsunami??? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:04:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 1. You are right on, Bruce, re the market demand. I wouldn't be surprised to see an S2 turbine before any I1 or H10. And of course the streamlined K4 has to be near the top:-). Given that MTH has done the S1 in O, that may be in the works as well, with all drivers blind:-). My fellow club members here in the Midwest, none Pennsy fans, have more GG1s than I do, by the way (though one who brought his BLI PC in has got me drooling and figuring out how to get another credit card---that sound just blows me away, taking me back to my Philly days). 2. Re your final comment on 120 speed steps, I may be wrong but my understanding is that MTH ignores compliance with NMRA standards or RPs on DCC. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" > I keep saying this! Market, market, market!! Really, the only > surprise is that BLI waited so long before doing a K4. The K4 is a > "signature" loco, like the GG1, or for that matter the T1, where even > non-PRR modelers (ie collectors, toy train folks, etc) have to have at > least one. Since those folks WAY out number the serious PRR modeler, > our purchase of multiples of one loco does not come close to > duplicating the numbers sold to the unwashed masses... Will an I1 be > forthcoming? Sure! Other PRR steamers? You bet! An H? Maybe... but the > market for these simply does not compare (not that it is not > sufficient, just not as big) as the market for something like a K4, > which like the market for F units, is probably big enough to sustain > more than one company... > > The good news is that there is now another fish in the pond that might > be persuaded to make a streamlined K4! > > Oh yeah, I bet the MTH locos have BEMF decoders ;^) But what's this > about 120 speed steps...ain't they heard its 128? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:34:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com MTH's "wireless" tether between the loco and tender is an intriguing item. I for one would not miss the mini-connectors that are damage prone when being disconnected. Wonder exactly what this tether is? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:44:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, You all weren't caught off guard with the announcment of MTH entering the HO market were you? Not sure exactly when I heard rumors of it but it was quite awhile ago. You didn't think MTH would let Lionel be the only toy train company to invade the HO world and have fun alone did you? The only surpise to me is that their announcment was a K4s as their first entry. I heard another report, read as "rumor", months ago but just can't recall now what it was. But I didn't think it was a Pennsy loco. I never paid much attention to their O scale line so I do not know what the scale fidelity cranks out to be, but casual viewing of some of their stuff looks pretty good. You can bet ya that their HO scale counterparts will be exact miniatres of the O scale line. And you can bet ya that anything already available in their O scale line, will be a candidate for the HO line. They make many so it may be years before everything they decide is worthy is available in HO. But I do hope they pick stuff from the "Preimier" line, not their toyish railking line. What are the locos they have had available in the O Scale "Premier" line at this point? K4s, T1, S2, GG1's? (J1?). I am not sure as I really don't follow their line. I can remember seeing M1's I1's, H10s, , Centipedes too but they may not be of the scale quality line. I see some duplicating of locos BLI has already released or will be soon. Thats par for the course these days. Can anyone confirm the photos of the MTH K4s is HO or of their O Scale version? Lots of comapnies throw out something for a tease. If it is the HO version, and from the pictures I seen, the front ends looks better than the BLI sample pic on their website. Interesting stuff none the less. Of the many locos MTH has produced, HO modelers of many railroad lines will sure to be on the look out for their next HO entry. Could we see another UP Challenger or Viranda Turbine just to compete with thier longtime enemy or a PRR T1 to compete with a new rival? ........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:52:20 -0500 To: RDG2124@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:34 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > MTH's "wireless" tether between the loco and tender is an intriguing > item. > I for one would not miss the mini-connectors that are damage prone > when being > disconnected. Wonder exactly what this tether is? I noticed that too! It could lead to some fun practical jokes when the hostler swaps tenders After all the decoder is likely to be in the tender, so it would retain the loco address. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:05:42 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary Mittner wrote: [snip] >Centipedes too but they may not be of the scale quality line. > > yes, MTH's centipedes were in the premier line and came out in 1999... This would be one addition I would welcome in plastic... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:35:10 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:12:35 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <752DC151-0BD5-11D9-A8F4-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSf44wYNcO97ElBQcSU+sD6uEl3cQAIqNKQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Unless they got everything in the loco: motor, flywheel, decoder, speaker(s), sound unit, smoke unit, smoke reservoir, etc; and the tender just goes along for the ride. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:52 AM To: RDG2124@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:34 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > MTH's "wireless" tether between the loco and tender is an intriguing > item. > I for one would not miss the mini-connectors that are damage prone > when being disconnected. Wonder exactly what this tether is? I noticed that too! It could lead to some fun practical jokes when the hostler swaps tenders After all the decoder is likely to be in the tender, so it would retain the loco address. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] MTH K4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:59:14 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One of the more intriguing features of the MTH K4 is the claim to 2 Kadee couplers. The coupler on the pilot of the pre-war K4 has the traditional Kadee "glad-hand", but the postwar model shows a drop coupler in the dropped position. Is this too a Kadee?? regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] MTH. K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:25:47 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com good point about the front coupler on the post war K-4. i'm gonna guess that mike will give you a drop functional dummy that can be replaced with a fixed kadee installation. glad to see some thought being given to working couplers on the front ends of steamers after all these years of non functional, and hard to remedy, dummy jobs. i imagine the details will be coming soon on this and lots of other questions. jaygee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:37:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: They, (Soundtraxx Tsunami's), should be available by the end of this year,....hopefully. More good news, they will have cam actuated exhaust capability. I can hear steam drifting down the hill already! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > > On Sep 21, 2004, at 7:29 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > Jeff: > > > > I'd trade a lot of the MTH optional sounds for siderod clank. The > > Soundtraxx Tsunami Claims to have it included. Yea! > > > > Larry > > I would too, but when will we actually SEE a Tsunami??? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:28:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:18:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Comments in E mails on List From: Gary Rowe From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:36:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com He just my do it. I was surprised w hen he released t he 0 gage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5A8A9916-0C33-11D9-8D68-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Scherb PRR Structures Book Vol. Two Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:04:28 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just received a stock of Jeff Scherb's "Trackside on the Pennsylvania: Volume Two: Structures of the Standard Railroad of the World" from Highlands Station. Like the first volume, it contains 96 pages of ICC drawings that he converted to scale using CAD software. So the drawings are very clear and crisp. Since they are in scale, photocopies can be used on your layout as a mockup until you get an actual model in place. Book contains both generic and specific structures in the following categories: Signal and Switch Buildings, Passenger Stations, Combination Stations, Yard and Shop Buildings, Freight Houses, and Additional Structures. I was thrilled to find the elevations of HARRIS tower. ZOO and HUNT are also included. A number of tool sheds, outhouses (yes, outhouses), freight sheds, etc. are included. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:46:32 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I will be in Washington on business late next week and I have one day = free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at Washington = Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting hassled, shot at or = arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head up to Harpers = Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those work, I will just = have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B. Kleins. Regards, Greg Johnson Friendswood, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:21:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94019d90858036c00a80cf21e4cab6b310b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.20 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry and all--Thoughts are nice, but prayers are much appreciated! Wow! I don't want to do that again. Power back on at 6:10 PM CST Sep 21. A quick synopsis-- We left town on Tues Sep 14 and went to Jacksonville. At the time Ivan was aimed somewhat to the east, but the folks from New Orleans had sucked up all the motels in Miss., northern Louisiana. Spent the next several days at a Red Roof Inn (much appreciated by our golden retreiver) glued to the Weather Channel and CNN. Red Roof Inns don't have Fox News Channel. Weather Channel runs more commercials than anybody, and I detest CNN. Red Roof Inns don't have Fox News Channel.Went to get pizza at 5 pm on the 16th. The place had a TV with Fox tuned in, and one of the good guys was standing on a bluff that overlooks Escambia Bay with the decimated I10 bridge in view. That was the first I saw of the damage. Since returning home I have heard that it would take a storm surge of 30 to 40 feet (that is a LOT of water) to do that much damage. If you will recall views you have seen, the trestle (that is what the locals still call it, but it is really a modern concrete bridge) immediately to the north supports the CSX mainline. I have not heard any damage reports to the trestle, but the trackage going around the bay on both sides of the trestle was washed completely clean of ballast. It is currently being rebuilt from the foundation up. Further north, where the Escambia River widens out to become the bay, is four lane US 90, comprised of two two lane bridges over the river proper and earthen fill over lowlands. The surge wiped out the earthen fill, roadway, blacktop, everything from several portions of the east bound lanes, then continued up the river and damaged our power plant. You have seen tv news footage--it is all true and more. There are people living in areas where there was no evacuation requirement with real horror stories about being chased up to their attics by the water, and then fearing the roof would lift off while hearing noises like jets flying over--imbedded tornadoes. We have a large sewage treatment plant near downtown near the edge of the bay; the on duty crew was chased up to the second story of the control building. Every school building in the district has suffered some damage. Fortunately we live about four miles from the water and suffered no flood damage. With my fingers crossed I called my neighbor before leaving Jax and amazingly he answered the phone: no electric, no water, and my house had survived. The only damage is a few broken roof shingles and some fascia trim ripped off. By the time we actually got home on Saturday, water was back on, but it had to be boiled or treated before drinking. And the sewage system was working, sort of. That was a good thing, since my wife wasn't happy with the idea of slit trenches in our back yard. The good stuff: On Saturday, waiting in the 8 mile long parking lot which used to be westbound I10 while we were detoured to US90 at Defuniak Springs, progress was interupted by convoy after convoy of power company and tree company trucks as well as Salvation Army, Red Cross, and FEMA vehicles. Help has just swarmed into the area. Typical of many locations is the closest high school: Nat'l Guard troops up from Tampa handing out bagged ice, bottled water, and MRE's by the case; two drive thru lines, stay in your car just unlatch the trunk or unlock your back doors. Late Monday afternoon I took my stepdaughter by her work since there was no phone there yet; as we left a convoy of 40 power company bucket trucks was rolling by in the left lane. As they blew thru red lights onlookers cheered, waved and blew their horns. Everywhere we have to go, a power truck from somewhere is there. We needed help, and the response has been truly overwhelming. America at its best. I will never take a hot shower for granted again. Now to fire up the Susquehanna Division. Thanks again. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:23:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill: I was not very clear. I was actually referring to the silence, broken only by the siderod clank. Drifting, with the current available sound, is not very prototypical when you hear the exhaust barking. BLI exhaust sound can be somewhat diminished by the dynamic brake function, ( I think it's "F-7"), but that's still too loud. I hope Soundtraxx includes the ability to eliminate the exhaust sound at will. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "Larry Reynolds" ; "Bruce Smith" Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Larry, your ears must be waaay better than mine. Most > steam locomotives make little if any noise when > drifting...the fireboy usually has to crack the blower > to get enough draft to keep the fire burning. ;-) > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > --- Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > > > ... I can hear steam drifting down the hill > > already! > > > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Don Harper Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:56:28 -0500 To: "Greg Johnson" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2004 14:02:38.0280 (UTC) FILETIME=[D17F0C80:01C4A0AC] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg You can't take photos in Penn Station in NYC. I know that for certain, as I was told to stop. You will probably run into the same problems in other major stations as well. The powers that be are really antsy about security problems. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Greg Johnson wrote: > I will be in Washington on business late next week and I have one day > free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at Washington > Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting hassled, shot at or > arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head up to Harpers > Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those work, I will just > have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B. Kleins. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > Friendswood, TX > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:10:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I can understand the sensitivity, especially in New York, but for further guidance on photographers rights, I suggest the link provided by Al Buchan in a recent TKM: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Harper" To: "Greg Johnson" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography > Greg > > You can't take photos in Penn Station in NYC. I know that for certain, > as I was told to stop. You will probably run into the same problems in > other major stations as well. The powers that be are really antsy > about security problems. > > > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > harperd@tamug.edu > > > > > On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Greg Johnson wrote: > > > I will be in Washington on business late next week and I have one day > > free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at Washington > > Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting hassled, shot at or > > arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head up to Harpers > > Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those work, I will just > > have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B. Kleins. > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg Johnson > > Friendswood, TX > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:25:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSgjvIN8ZhxBv2bT4SPBb0VciL8HgAKPToQ In-Reply-To: <001301c4a08e$34d15230$d5cca4d8@Office> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to the QSI manual (available on -line) the dynamic brake function is F5. But the steam hiss sound is separately controllable with CV 52(CV 49=19), and the dynamic brake function with CV52(CV 49=28). I used to spend my time model RrRing. Now I spend it installing and debugging DCC decoders :-( regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Larry Reynolds Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:23 AM To: Bill Daniels; Bruce Smith Cc: 'PRR-Talk' TALK'' Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Bill: I was not very clear. I was actually referring to the silence, broken only by the siderod clank. Drifting, with the current available sound, is not very prototypical when you hear the exhaust barking. BLI exhaust sound can be somewhat diminished by the dynamic brake function, ( I think it's "F-7"), but that's still too loud. I hope Soundtraxx includes the ability to eliminate the exhaust sound at will. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "Larry Reynolds" ; "Bruce Smith" Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Larry, your ears must be waaay better than mine. Most > steam locomotives make little if any noise when > drifting...the fireboy usually has to crack the blower > to get enough draft to keep the fire burning. ;-) > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > --- Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > > > ... I can hear steam drifting down the hill > > already! > > > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:32:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Bowser GLa hopper project is coming along well. Full test shots=20 reviewed this week confirm project will be delivered in November. This model features a zinc die cast under frame, plastic body with the=20= stand up brake wheel, and Atlas Accumate couplers. Suggested retail price is $13.95 each. Part numbers, road names, paint schemes as follows: #37600=A0=A0 Undecorated #37601=A0=A0 PRR Circle Keystone -12 road numbers #37602=A0=A0 PRR Shadow Keystone - 12 road numbers #37604=A0=A0 Berwind - 3 road numbers #37616=A0=A0 Canadian National Brown Body - 3 road numbers #37634=A0=A0 Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh (BR & P Ry) - 3 road numbers #37635=A0=A0 Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O) - 3 road numbers Eventually all of the roads offered in HO will be done. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:44:28 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg, I'd imagine DC union Station is tight, and I know=20 Baltimore Penn Station is tight. Perryville is a great=20 spot from the station platform. The museum also serves as=20 a museum now so people don't really care as much. I'd=20 suggest printing out the link Al provided through TKM and=20 also take along some examples of previous photography.=20 My Dad was taking pictures of trains crossing the bridge=20 from the park below and was talked to from both local cops=20 and Amtrak cops. Dad fortunately had the Lewistown book=20 with him which includes two of his pictures and they were=20 fine with it then.=20 Kleins has a good selection of Pennsy stuff in right now.=20 I was down on saturday to spend most of my paycheck.=20 Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Greg Johnson wrote: > I will be in Washington on business late next week and I=20 >have one day=20 > free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at=20 >Washington=20 > Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting=20 >hassled, shot at or=20 > arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head=20 >up to Harpers=20 > Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those=20 >work, I will just=20 > have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B.=20 >Kleins. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > Friendswood, TX > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Number of GLAs, was Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:51:56 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 22, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > The Bowser GLa hopper project is coming along well. I would remind folks of the resource that Jerry and I have created for looking at PRR car fleet sizes. This may help you decide how many cases of these to order . http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/topclass/index.html A quick look at the GLA class shows that in 1955, there were 25610 and in 1959 there were 15857 while the H21A numbers for the same years were 1955 - 35258 and 1959 - 24431, meaning that you need about a 2 to 3 ratio of GLA to H21A in both 1955 and 1959 (and theoretically in between ). In 1964, the GLA was no longer in the top 30 classes at all. In addition, by searching for all the hoppers in 1955 and 1959 you can find that in 1955, these two classes made up 90% of the PRR fleet, while in 1959 this was down to 85% (overall hopper numbers were down by around 30%!) and the leased N&W H2s made up about 4% of the fleet... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:05:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of GLAs, was Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 12:51 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > On Sep 22, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> The Bowser GLa hopper project is coming along well. > > I would remind folks of the resource that Jerry and I have created for > looking at PRR car fleet sizes. This may help you decide how many > cases of these to order . Also worth noting that Bowser has only announced 3 road numbers in Berwind. When these came out in HO they did 12. I know of several people, myself included, that were hoping to order 12 Berwind cars. I have asked Bowser to reconsider. If you want 12, please e-mail Bowser and let them know! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography From: bobsin@nac.net X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For those venturing into New Jersey, photography remains controversial; NJ Transit this year began requiring a photo permit, and their police enforce this rule. Permits are readily issued, but are normally time- and place-specific. Only after some prodding have they conceded that they cannot enforce anti-photography restrictions on people standing on non-NJT property; and it could very well be that individual police do not understand the distinction, for they had regularly been hassling people well off NJT property with cameras pointed in that direction. PATH has long prohibited photography on its premises. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:39 -0400 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:10:17 -0500 From: "Don Harper" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry; Do you know what dates these cars will carry? Any dates newer than 1957? E.J. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry; Do you know what dates these cars will carry? Any dates newer than 1957? E.J. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:53:53 +0000 From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:52:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2004 19:51:05.0992 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F76B880:01C4A0DD] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I already informed the wife that if they produce the S1 to get ready to get out the check book! Sam V ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Given MTH is now joining Lionel in the HO scale locomotive martet, I think > that there is a very good chance that we will be seeing S-1's, S-2's, Q-2's, > and maybe Q-1's in HO scale. These firms have done these engines (at least > the first 3) in O-scale and typically produced unusual engines that have > broad market appeal. > > > Now, where is Varney......... > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:28:44 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker’s parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:28:44 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker’s parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:05:07 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell > > Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel > > Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker’s parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. > Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. > Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. > Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. > Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. > Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions Actually, Bill Bracy and John Brady were let go two Mondays ago. The others were released either Thursday or Friday of last week. Needless to say, there has been great speculation as to why there was such a move. Many of the posts to the OGR (O Gauge Railroading [magazine]) Forum have been centered on the recent $40 million jury verdict issued against Lionel in the MTH lawsuit. The judge has yet to finalize the verdict. It should be noted that Bracy was not at Lionel's helm at the time the theft of MTH's engine diagrams/research. And remember there is an upcoming Union Pacific lawsuit against Lionel for not following UP's licensing procedures. The majority of the rest of the posts spoke about the direction Lionel has been taking and the return on the money invested. Many have said that they expect Lionel to shift from the higher end O Gauge scale market back to the traditional postwar sized O-27 train sets (and HO) which also fuel the inclusion of younger enthusiasts. Jerry Calabrese was brought in due to his expertise/knowledge in 'selling' his products to the youth market and evidently brought his own team with him. That is why the product/marketing people were let go. Others speculated that perhaps Wellspring made a change due to the MTH and/or UP money pressures; the possible lack of orders for the upcoming holiday season or just to shift gears seeing the need to increase the return on their investment (they paid $20 million for 80% of Lionel; the other 20% is owned by Neil Young). And I won't even touch on the possibility of what could happen with MTH. John Brady, Todd Wagner, Eric Shreffler and Julie Laird were among the best and the brightest at Lionel. Todd, in particular, was extremely receptive to correcting any mistake concerning our favorite railroad (along with others). Wellspring has yet to issue a statement as the change in leadership. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 12:6:1445370215 X-MAIL-INFO:4e8451191025cd0551bd051059e5e5f510e9e5d98dadbde93100f0e9210d0d09e9810db124710081 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: jTmkjNShdRGYa700blOSW/reLluNZfiS1HoMuaUND8KNW5IFEJzrwxpeMw3SYIY8 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey ....since they already made / make it.................how about a Centipede in "HO" Sorry " Steam guy's " but thats what I'd absolutely love to see . I don't think I'm the only one who who shell out the busssssssssssssscks for one . I already have one in " O " which could use a little brother ! Thanks , Mike Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net E-bay : iron*mah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Given MTH is now joining Lionel in the HO scale locomotive martet, I think > that there is a very good chance that we will be seeing S-1's, S-2's, Q-2's, > and maybe Q-1's in HO scale. These firms have done these engines (at least > the first 3) in O-scale and typically produced unusual engines that have > broad market appeal. > > > Now, where is Varney......... > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:14:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Question on GLa Trucks From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com With the advent of Atlas couplers on the new N scale GLa's from Bowser, numerous people have asked what truck will be on the new car. I poised the question to Bowser and this is their response... On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 07:57 AM, Lee English wrote: > the truck will be just like the HO truck side frame (70ton friction > bearing) > with truck mounted couplers (Accumate) > > The rapido trucks will be available as an after market item. > > I plan to change all our cars over eventually. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:49:06 +0000 >From: "michael hmel" >Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 >From: "Ted Andrews" >Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:49:06 +0000 >From: "michael hmel" >Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 >From: "Ted Andrews" >Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:51:01 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guyz, I would love to have two A-A sets of Centipedes to run on=20 my planned Northern Central Layout. 5-stripes with the=20 Gotham Limited in tow. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Ted Andrews" wrote: A Centipede would be great too. That engine, in addition=20 to the U25C, are one of the few notable holdouts that have=20 not been produced in plastic. (The RS-27's and RSD-7's=20 have been announced for next year) A Centipede, while not delivered to too many RR's, would=20 have broader market appeal (non Pennsy modelers) Ted >From: "michael hmel" >To: "PRR-Talk list" >Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 > >Hey ....since they already made / make=20 >it.................how about a >Centipede in "HO" >Sorry " Steam guy's " but thats what I'd absolutely love=20 >to see . >I don't think I'm the only one who who shell out the=20 >busssssssssssssscks for >one . I already have one in " O " which could use a little=20 >brother ! >Thanks , >Mike >Member : TCA , PRRT&HS >Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk > Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading >E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net >E-bay : iron*mah > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ted Andrews" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:53 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > > > > Given MTH is now joining Lionel in the HO scale=20 >locomotive martet, I=20 >think > > that there is a very good chance that we will be seeing=20 >S-1's, S-2's, >Q-2's, > > and maybe Q-1's in HO scale. These firms have done=20 >these engines (at=20 >least > > the first 3) in O-scale and typically produced unusual=20 >engines that have > > broad market appeal. > > > > > > Now, where is Varney......... > > > > > >=20 >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:02:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO....... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 11:51 AM, John Frantz wrote: > I would love to have two A-A sets of Centipedes to run on my planned > Northern Central Layout. 5-stripes with the Gotham Limited in tow. > Northern Central... Gotham Limited... John, you might want to do a little research before you break ground on your layout. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:24:52 -0500 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 23, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > A Centipede would be great too. That engine, in addition to the U25C, > are one of the few notable holdouts that have not been produced in > plastic. (The RS-27's and RSD-7's have been announced for next year) > > A Centipede, while not delivered to too many RR's, would have broader > market appeal (non Pennsy modelers) Yeah, sure, Seaboard and NdeM should add, what, a couple dozen models to sales? Actually though, I agree with Ted that this model would have much wider appeal. They are high on "Lionel Factor", which means lots of sales to collectors and folks who just want one because its "cool". While huge, their multi-truck articulation would allow fairly tight radii, unlike the PRR S1. To me, some of the top "Lionel Factor" locos I would expect to be produced are: PRR S2 turbine PRR centipede Milwaukee bi-polar electric Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Re: Question on GLa Trucks Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:03:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com And then some of us will have to remove them to substitute truck mounted Micro-Trains couplers. 8<( I have 7 inch radius curves and 250 cars. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Steitz" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [PRR-n_scale] Re: Question on GLa Trucks > All: > > It's a pity that Bowser is following the herd with truck mounted couplers. > > One of the best improvements that our HO brethren have with their rolling > stock (including every piece the Bowser HO line) is body mounted couplers. > Body mounts allow easier and smoother backing of consists, essential for > road or yard switching. Truck mounted couplers remain toy-like, a > blemish > on an otherwise fine model. > > Maybe one day, the manufacturers will get it right........ > > John Steitz > Alexandria, VA > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Jerry Britton > Reply-To: PRR-n_scale@yahoogroups.com > To: PRR-n_scale > CC: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR-n_scale] Re: Question on GLa Trucks > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:14:36 -0400 > > With the advent of Atlas couplers on the new N scale GLa's from Bowser, > numerous people have asked what truck will be on the new car. I poised > the question to Bowser and this is their response... > > On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 07:57 AM, Lee English wrote: > > > the truck will be just like the HO truck side frame (70ton friction > > bearing) > > with truck mounted couplers (Accumate) > > > > The rapido trucks will be available as an after market item. > > > > I plan to change all our cars over eventually. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FaCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-n_scale-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:09:42 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F82E9@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] New MTH HO....... thread-index: AcShfiT1pkiw1YwPTD26fgCjzIaDdAAJNLRg From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Derrick J Brashear" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I happen to own a PRR U-25c in HO plastic made by LifeLike many years ago. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Derrick J Brashear Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 11:00 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Ted Andrews wrote: > A Centipede would be great too. That engine, in addition to the U25C,=20 > are one > of the few notable holdouts that have not been produced in plastic. The AHM/Rivarossi version may be crude, but it's definitely plastic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:26:22 -0400 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] U25C Clarification Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:51:29 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] U25C Clarification Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:51:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:28:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] P50 Coach Class Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:40:41 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, What were the origins of the P50 coach class? Also, how=20 many were ever made and i'm guessing they were used in=20 local service mostly? TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:35:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers Hvywt Pullman Coach X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I haven't found it listed anywhere. Did the Pennsy have any of the Pullman paired window coaches? My suspicions are that the Pennsy was the Pennsy and did not have any. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:51:39 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] Railfest From: Tucson3985@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:30:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] changes at Lionel X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Maybe the changes have more to due with the recent lawsuit victory obtained by MTH against Lionel and/or the pending lawsuit by Union Pacific against Lionel which alleges trademark violations. Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears that Lionel walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for one think UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it appears they did. The facts of the MTH--Lionel suit are hazy, but I believe it involves Lionel's Korean manufacturer's alleged copying of MTH designs. Without seeing the documents, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to how that occurred and whether Lionel USA officials were held to be responsible in some way. But if I were the investor owners of Lionel, I might have some concern about the abilities of the management team that was on watch when these lawsuits came about... Ivan Abrams (and yes, I'm a lawyer, but be kind--someone had to do it and my number was picked...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tucson3985@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:30:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] changes at Lionel X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Maybe the changes have more to due with the recent lawsuit victory obtained by MTH against Lionel and/or the pending lawsuit by Union Pacific against Lionel which alleges trademark violations. Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears that Lionel walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for one think UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it appears they did. The facts of the MTH--Lionel suit are hazy, but I believe it involves Lionel's Korean manufacturer's alleged copying of MTH designs. Without seeing the documents, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to how that occurred and whether Lionel USA officials were held to be responsible in some way. But if I were the investor owners of Lionel, I might have some concern about the abilities of the management team that was on watch when these lawsuits came about... Ivan Abrams (and yes, I'm a lawyer, but be kind--someone had to do it and my number was picked...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Last PV to Pittsburgh Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:33:52 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com With the change to the Winter timetable the Pennsylvanian will cease = operating between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. If it returns in the = spring of '05 it will be a late afternoon departure from Philly.=20 SO....there will be one last PV round trip between Philly and P'burg on = the weekend of October 23, and 24th, with the Warrior Ridge and the = Pennsylvania 120. Limited reserved seating only. Everyone gets to spend = some time on the 120. On the past two trips everyone had a great time. = This very well may be IT!=20 Pittsburgh will no longer be a PV destination. For further information charliehoran@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BM70M question Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:14:31 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was = primarily or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used = significantly for checked baggage or express? I presume the door was = then locked to the RPO section.=20 If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member = (from the RPO crew, I mean)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BM70M question Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:14:31 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was = primarily or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used = significantly for checked baggage or express? I presume the door was = then locked to the RPO section.=20 If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member = (from the RPO crew, I mean)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] RE: Lionel's Legal Troubles Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:32:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5855.52301@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [141.158.176.200] at Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:32:26 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I think Lionel's legal issues are mostly of their own making, particularly in regard to their use of Korea Brass castings of dubious origins. Within the past two weeks, the 3-rail component of the O Gauge Railroading Forum (www.ogaugerr.com) has reported that a major housekeeping exercise has taken place at Lionel. The president, vice-president, and a number of marketing folks were let go very suddenly. This may have been previously reported here, if so I apologize. I have not kept up to date with this list. Whether this development is related to the MTH lawsuit (the actions that sparked the suit happened before this management team took over), is unknown and cause for speculation. George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:46:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RPO's on mail trains? From: Frederick Ripley From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Atlas Trainmasters Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:28:04 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gentlemen: I picked up two Atlas Trainmasters today. First, let me say that they = are, in my opinion, VERY beautiful locomotives. They run smooth and the = sound is great. I did, however, encounter a problem that I thought I'd = pass along. I was speaking with Ken McCorry, before I ran these locomotives, and he = told me that he and a friend of his were test running these engines and = noticed that after a little bit of time, they would hesitate, stop, = start, etcetera. They discovered that the wheels had a residue that = would easily pick up dust/dirt from the tracks and cause an electrical = contact problem. After giving the wheels a good cleaning, the problem = was fixed. =20 I too experienced the identical problem. The engines ran fine for about = 50 feet, or so, and then developed the characteristics that Ken warned = me about. So, I cleaned the wheels and the problem was no more. = Until,.....the locomotive ran another fifty feet and the problem came = back. So, I cleaned the wheels again. I cleaned the wheels five times = and the problem kept returning. Now, I don't claim to keep my track = squeaky clean, but the track is usually clean enough to not cause this = kind of trouble. I have many locomotives, including steam and diesel = Broadway Limited models and have never experienced this with any of = them. I have found this sort of a thing with Athearn Genesis and = Stewart AS616's. I solved the problem with these locomotives by = hardwiring them as MU'd locos and this seemed to fix the trouble. = However, I do no want to hard wire the TM's since I will, on occasion, = run them as single units. Finally, I put some Wahl hair clipper oil on the rails, (something that = I haven't done for some time), and the problem went away. I've run the = engines quite a bit since applying the oil and the problem has not = returned. =20 Larry Reynolds I ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ktolliver@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Oakwood yard Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:49:59 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, My first post to the group and it's a question. I am working as a conductor on the NS out of Oakwood Yard south of Detroit and while switching the tri-level docks on Saturday something got my curiosity up. I know Oakwood was once upon a time a Wabash yard and was told that the Conrail line that skirts thru there and up onto the Lincoln Secondary was once PRR. On the highway overpass going over Schaefer Rd the handrail stanchions look like Train phone supports with pipe thru them to form the guardrails and was wondering if these are a leftover legacy from the PRR? Thanks for any input on this one Keith T ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ktolliver@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Oakwood yard Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:49:59 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, My first post to the group and it's a question. I am working as a conductor on the NS out of Oakwood Yard south of Detroit and while switching the tri-level docks on Saturday something got my curiosity up. I know Oakwood was once upon a time a Wabash yard and was told that the Conrail line that skirts thru there and up onto the Lincoln Secondary was once PRR. On the highway overpass going over Schaefer Rd the handrail stanchions look like Train phone supports with pipe thru them to form the guardrails and was wondering if these are a leftover legacy from the PRR? Thanks for any input on this one Keith T ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:29:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very attractive new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the class number? I am hopeful some of our gondola experts can help me out with this information. Many thanks in advance. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:29:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very attractive new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the class number? I am hopeful some of our gondola experts can help me out with this information. Many thanks in advance. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? (fwd) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:33:40 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lee Rainey asked: There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very attractive new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the class number? PRR Class G24, 750 cars total allocated to Lines West, GR&I, and LIRR in 1919: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24 All cars rebuilt with steel sides 1930-1937. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:59:47 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 >From: "Ed Workman" >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. UP is well within their rights to prevent someone else -------------- Original message from Tom Hayden : -------------- > I agree that Lionel (and Athearn) are to be commended for their stance on > UP. And I think they will win. > > It's too bad that Lionel has messed up their legal position by their > illegal and unfair dealings regarding MTH, but their UP position is righteous. > > Clearly if UP wins it will be a sad day for all railroad fans and modelers, > including PRR types. It's my understanding that the PRR logos, etc are NOT > likely to ever be an issue, but most PRR modelers also run other roads' > equipment. > > Tom Hayden > > > >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 > >From: "Ed Workman" > >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 > > > >At 10:10 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote: > > >Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears that > > Lionel > > >walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for one > > think > > >UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have the right > > >to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to think that > > >supposedly > > >responsible corporate managers--at Lionel--would subject their company to > > >liability in the manner it appears they did. > > > > > >See Mainline Modeler for an alternative opinion re: UP license > >The main problem with our legal system is that it is used to extort by > >threat of protracted litigation. > >Your suggestion that Lionel management made the wrong decision makes you > >a nominee for the Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize. > >It boggles MY mind that we don't take back our country from the lawyers... > >I suppose too many folks look at a chance to sue/extort similar "winning > >the lottery". > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >End of PRR-Talk Digest > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > >Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by MessageLabs. > >For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by MessageLabs. For > more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > _____________________________________________________________________________ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:13:42 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSkqwMBhhmSar8pSwS50HUN8TsO2gAAQ3Tg In-reply-to: <092720041549.1654.41583693000387400000067621587667559D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To Scotch Tape and Xerox you can add "Band-Aid", "Jell-O", "Formica", and "Cellophane". Coca-Cola sends spies to restaurants and aboard airlines to ask for a "Coke". If they get served Pepsi without being first told they are not getting Coke, they sue! That said, the UP case is different in several ways. First the defendants have been using the names for many decades without any attempt by UP to stop them (until now). Second, the defendants are not selling a competing product and claiming to be UP. Third, the defendants use of the name, in no way threatens to make the name generic. No one will every say "UP" when they mean "railroad" just because Lionel made models of their equipment. regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:50 AM To: Tom Hayden; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. UP is well within their rights to prevent s! omeone else -------------- Original message from Tom Hayden : -------------- > I agree that Lionel (and Athearn) are to be commended for their stance > on UP. And I think they will win. > > It's too bad that Lionel has messed up their legal position by their > illegal and unfair dealings regarding MTH, but their UP position is righteous. > > Clearly if UP wins it will be a sad day for all railroad fans and > modelers, including PRR types. It's my understanding that the PRR > logos, etc are NOT likely to ever be an issue, but most PRR modelers also run other roads' > equipment. > > Tom Hayden > > > >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 > >From: "Ed Workman" > >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 > > > >At 10:10 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote: > > >Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears > > >that > > Lionel > > >walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for > > >one > > think > > >UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have > > >the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to > > >think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at > > >Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it > > >appears they did. > > > > > >See Mainline Modeler for an alternative opinion re: UP license The > >main problem with our legal system is that it is used to extort by > >threat of protracted litigation. > >Your suggestion that Lionel management made the wrong decision makes > >you a nominee for the Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize. > >It boggles MY mind that we don't take back our country from the lawyers... > >I suppose too many folks look at a chance to sue/extort similar > >"winning the lottery". > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > >End of PRR-Talk Digest > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > >MessageLabs. > >For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > MessageLabs. For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:51:30 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 27, 2004, at 10:49 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Sorry, that is not correct. None of these companies has "allowed" their trademarks to be genericized for "good will". Typically if it has occurred (and it has not for Xerox) then it has happened from a failure of diligence on the part of the owner of the trademark. From the Xerox web site: "The Xerox Trademark Xerox is a famous trademark and trade name. Xerox as a trademark is properly used only as a brand name to identify the company's products and services. The Xerox trademark should always be used as a proper adjective followed by the generic name of the product: e.g., Xerox printer. The Xerox trademark should never be used as a verb. The trade name Xerox is an abbreviation for the company's full legal name: Xerox Corporation." Xerox aggressively protects their name. If they did not, then anyone WOULD be able to introduce a XEROX copier, and that would mean the company had completely lost the ability for customers to distinguish its product... and that would be a very dumb move (fatal too). On the subject of Uncle Pete's RR, I would suggest supporting folks like Al Westerfield, and Bob Hundeman (Mainline Modeler), and let folks like Terry Thompson (editor of MR, who basically caved 100% to UP) know that their failure to support the hobby has been noticed. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:14:15 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8304@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits thread-index: AcSkqwMBhhmSar8pSwS50HUN8TsO2gAAQ3TgAAb6uhA= From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Andy Miller" , , "Tom Hayden" , "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey! We KLEENEX fans feel left out of this discussion! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:14 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; 'Tom Hayden'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits To Scotch Tape and Xerox you can add "Band-Aid", "Jell-O", "Formica", and "Cellophane". Coca-Cola sends spies to restaurants and aboard airlines to ask for a "Coke". If they get served Pepsi without being first told they are not getting Coke, they sue! That said, the UP case is different in several ways. First the defendants have been using the names for many decades without any attempt by UP to stop them (until now). Second, the defendants are not selling a competing product and claiming to be UP. Third, the defendants use of the name, in no way threatens to make the name generic. No one will every say "UP" when they mean "railroad" just because Lionel made models of their equipment. regards, =20 Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:50 AM To: Tom Hayden; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. UP is well within their rights to prevent s! omeone else -------------- Original message from Tom Hayden : --------------=20 > I agree that Lionel (and Athearn) are to be commended for their stance > on UP. And I think they will win. >=20 > It's too bad that Lionel has messed up their legal position by their > illegal and unfair dealings regarding MTH, but their UP position is righteous. >=20 > Clearly if UP wins it will be a sad day for all railroad fans and > modelers, including PRR types. It's my understanding that the PRR=20 > logos, etc are NOT likely to ever be an issue, but most PRR modelers also run other roads' > equipment. >=20 > Tom Hayden >=20 >=20 > >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 > >From: "Ed Workman" > >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 > >=20 > >At 10:10 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote: > > >Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears > > >that > > Lionel > > >walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for > > >one > > think > > >UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have > > >the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to > > >think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at=20 > > >Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it=20 > > >appears they did. > >=20 > >=20 > >See Mainline Modeler for an alternative opinion re: UP license The > >main problem with our legal system is that it is used to extort by=20 > >threat of protracted litigation. > >Your suggestion that Lionel management made the wrong decision makes=20 > >you a nominee for the Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize. > >It boggles MY mind that we don't take back our country from the lawyers...=20 > >I suppose too many folks look at a chance to sue/extort similar > >"winning the lottery". > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >=20 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >=20 > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > >MessageLabs. > >For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com=20 > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ >=20 >=20 > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > MessageLabs. For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com=20 > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:24:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You guys knew it was coming, right? ;-) Okay, let's get back to "reasonable" Pennsy topics. Thanks. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Penn Station fire today Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:12:22 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fire Halts All Train Service At Penn Station SEPTEMBER 27TH, 2004 All entrances and train service to and from Penn Station has been shut down due to power problems caused by a fire in a nearby tunnel. All Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road and New Jersey Transit trains are affected. The fire broke out in a tunnel at 30th Street and First Avenue at about 1 p.m., knocking out power to track signals. It is unclear when regular service will resume. In the meantime, the LIRR says its tickets are being honored on area subways until the problem is fixed. "We have lost signal power, so LIRR customers and their tickets are being honored on the subway at Jamaica, [Queens], Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn and Penn Station itself, as well as Woodside, [Queens], for people traveling on the Port Washington branch,” said LIRR spokesman Brian Dolan. PATH trains between New Jersey and Manhattan are also accepting New Jersey Transit tickets. New Jersey Transit says its North Jersey Coastline and Northeast Corridor trains are ending and beginning service at Newark, and Midtown Direct service has been diverted to Hoboken. For more information on New Jersey Transit, call 1-800-772-2222 for updates. Transit officials are recommending commuters take the subway, PATH trains or ferries to get in and out of Manhattan. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:54:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO's on mail trains? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Checking some old actual consists from the 60s. Train # 30 "THE SPIRIT OF ST LOUIS" carried a STL-HAR RPO, #22 shows 2RPOs PGH-NYP on 6-17-63,#18 showed 2PGH-NYP RPOs on the same date.#13 had a NYP- PGH car on12-5-63, 2nd 32 on 1-1`-63 had a PGH-NYP car. I have seen photos of Train # 4 departing The Penn Texas departing St Louis with RPOs but not sure how far they went. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:24:09 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I received this last Friday. Charles Blardone has outdone himself, if = that is possible. This is truly a remarkable document. IMNSHO it = would be useful for all modelers, not just Pennsy. His description of = the details, the airhorns, the inductive radio system, the alternative = pilots, freight and passenger, and the phase differences is a reference = with no equal that I have seen.=20 Excuse my gushing but this is a monumental work. Well done, Charles. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:31:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Credit should go to Jack Consoli......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:11:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My sincere and public apologies to Jack. And thanks and congratulations to him for this historical masterpiece. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Bob Zoeller'" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:02 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 > Bob: > > Jack Consoli wrote the article not Chuck. > > Al > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Zoeller > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:24 PM > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 > > > I received this last Friday. Charles Blardone has outdone himself, if > that is possible. This is truly a remarkable document. IMNSHO it > would be useful for all modelers, not just Pennsy. His description of > the details, the airhorns, the inductive radio system, the alternative > pilots, freight and passenger, and the phase differences is a reference > with no equal that I have seen. > > Excuse my gushing but this is a monumental work. Well done, Charles. > > Bob Zoeller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:31:31 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <003601c4a511$342d2f20$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcSlEbVsoK0fJ1pQRqaO3vvUtQTQAgAAhRiA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com OK, I give up. What's an "anticlimber?" (As referenced in the great F unit article.) Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:06:55 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Douglas, Jerry, and the List: An anticlimber is a horizontal steel rib or series of parallel steel ribs mounted at the ends of a locomotive or other propelled-vehicle frame, just above the pilot and coupler. Typically these were and are mounted on diesel and electric locomotives and electric traction cars (trolley cars and interurbans). Their purpose is to minimize the hazard to crews in the event of a catastrophic head-on collision. The horizontal ribs are intended to do what the name implies, prevent the climbing of one unit into, or over, another, by confining and redirecting the energy of the respective forward-traveling vehicles. The origin of this device is rooted in the traction industry, in the aftermath of collisions between wooden-bodied cars that telescoped, causing pain, injury, and death to crew and passengers. Today, the anticlimber is a single bar of steel (as in current road-locomotive construction) but often in the past it was a series of rounded parallel ribs to provide multiple-angle protection for corbodies having rounded ends such as F-units and interurban cars). Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote: >OK, I give up. What's an "anticlimber?" (As referenced in the great F unit >article.) > >Thanks. > >Doug Kirkpatrick >Medford, OR > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPO's in 15' increments... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 1:14:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: BM70M question > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:14:31 -0500 > > These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily > or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used significantly for > checked baggage or express? I presume the door was then locked to the RPO > section. > > If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member > (from the RPO crew, I mean)? > > Bob Zoeller > I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO compartments in those cars? OK, experts -- how'd I do? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] The PRR in Detroit X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 1:14:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: [PRR] Oakwood yard > From: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:49:59 +0000 > > Hello all, > My first post to the group and it's a question. I am working as a conductor > on the NS out of Oakwood Yard south of Detroit and while switching the > tri-level docks on Saturday something got my curiosity up. I know Oakwood was once > upon a time a Wabash yard and was told that the Conrail line that skirts > thru there and up onto the Lincoln Secondary was once PRR. On the highway > overpass going over Schaefer Rd the handrail stanchions look like Train phone > supports with pipe thru them to form the guardrails and was wondering if these are > a leftover legacy from the PRR? > Thanks for any input on this one > Keith T > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Oakwood yard > From: "Bill Daniels" > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:12 -0700 (PDT) > > Well, the PRR entered Detroit up from Toledo on a > single track line that more or less paralleled the > former DT&I line. I think the PRR terminated at > Oakwood, but once did go to the former Fort St. Depot > (via trackage rights on the Wabash...If I remember > correctly. (Its been a VERY long time since I was last > in Detroit). I also know the PRR was a partner in the > Union Belt, which had a year off of Joy and went up > past Grand River to Schaffer and Lyndon, and then > north (I once lived in the neighborhood). > > I have no idea of what's left up there... > > > ===== > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ I believe the PRR freights terminated at Lincoln Park yard, which lay in a vee with the east end of WAB's Oakwood. I'm working mostly from the SPV atlas (GLE page 37), but did visit Lincoln Park once on a Sunday with nobody around to run me off. Seems to me I noticed some PRR-standard handrails on an overpass at one end of the yard, but I have no idea what street that was. Might have been the Schaefer Road you mention. I do not understand the phrase "the Union Belt, which had a year off of Joy". I see the Union Belt on the map north and also east of Delray Tower; it looks like the eastern line leads to Fort Street Union Depot. However, I can find no locations named Joy, Grand River, Schaffer, or Lyndon in the SPV map index. Are these Detroit streets, or are they the names of neighborhoods? Apropos of nothing, until 3 years ago my post office was Lyndon KY (although we used Louisville for an address). Believe there is also a Lyndon Ohio somewhere. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:50 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] The PRR in Detroit I believe the PRR freights terminated at Lincoln Park yard, which lay in a vee with the east end of WAB's Oakwood. I'm working mostly from the SPV atlas (GLE page 37), but did visit Lincoln Park once on a Sunday with nobody around to run me off. Seems to me I noticed some PRR-standard handrails on an overpass at one end of the yard, but I have no idea what street that was. Might have been the Schaefer Road you mention. I do not understand the phrase "the Union Belt, which had a year off of Joy". I see the Union Belt on the map north and also east of Delray Tower; it looks like the eastern line leads to Fort Street Union Depot. However, I can find no locations named Joy, Grand River, Schaffer, or Lyndon in the SPV map index. Are these Detroit streets, or are they the names of neighborhoods? Apropos of nothing, until 3 years ago my post office was Lyndon KY (although we used Louisville for an address). Believe there is also a Lyndon Ohio somewhere. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] RPO's in 15' increments... PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: BM70M question > These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily > or always used for working mail storage. I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO compartments in those cars? OK, experts -- how'd I do? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] RPO's in 15' increments... PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: BM70M question > These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily > or always used for working mail storage. I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO compartments in those cars? OK, experts -- how'd I do? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:55:54 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8305@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 thread-index: AcSlEbVsoK0fJ1pQRqaO3vvUtQTQAgAAhRiAABQ/PrA= From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The anti-climber derives its origin from the trolley car days when a large ribbed steel bumper was applied to the end sill. This prevented one car from climbing over the other in a low speed head on collision where one car would slice through the other and kill a lot of people.=20 After diesels came in the same principle was applied. Bill Volkmer Trolley enthusiast extraordinaire. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Kirkpatrick Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:32 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 OK, I give up. What's an "anticlimber?" (As referenced in the great F unit article.) Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:17:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 > > There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into > consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting > area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed > "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed > their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a > generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of > dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something > different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar > name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP > claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are > grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to > have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to > avoid the future cost. 1. Good Will also includes product reputation and reliability, customer relationship histories, market share, and a bunch of other intangibles. 2. GM owns the Corvette trademark. But that does not mean they have their hand out to every toy company that makes a toy or model Corvette. Whether this is a legal boundary, or just good sense (the toys are free advertising, thus worth millions to a car company), I do not know. But it IS a normal and prevailing business practice. 3. When UP decides to asks you to pay a license fee to run model equipment with their trademarks at public shows, can you afford a lawyer to argue that you should have grandfather rights? 4. Silly or trivial examples perhaps, but in legal theory, we have our government grant trademark rights to individuals/companies/corporations because this practice is in the public interest, and promotes fair business practices. OTOH, it grates me that UP was one of the biggest land grant railroads in history. After my ancestors' interest (as citizens of the US) in who knows how much public lands were granted to UP (and its components) to get it going, now UP wants to make war on my pocketbook. UP may have a strong legal position -- with their bank of lawyers, one would hope so. Nevertheless, we should be asking (and asking our courts) if this is behavior that is in the public interest. I for one believe it is not. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:00:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, Please see my question below on proper color for P70 coach steps in the mid-50s. Jerry suggested I forward it to the list. Anyone besides me old enough to remember them (kinda)? Tom Riggs > > > I am detailing some N scale Lima coaches in Pennsy mid-50s style, with > > diaphragms, new decals, pin-head roof vents, etc. For the > > steps--using Gold > > Medal details--I have seen these in Tuscan red but it seems more > > likely that > > they were black. (This also fits my memory from being about 10 during > > that > > era.) Which is accurate? > > Not sure. I wasn't old enough to have seen them!!! Color photos are > rare. Try posing this question to the PRR-talk list. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:17:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] What does a trademark right really mean? In a message dated 9/27/04 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 > > There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into > consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting > area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed > "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed > their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a > generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of > dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something > different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar > name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP > claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are > grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to > have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to > avoid the future cost. 1. Good Will also includes product reputation and reliability, customer relationship histories, market share, and a bunch of other intangibles. 2. GM owns the Corvette trademark. But that does not mean they have their hand out to every toy company that makes a toy or model Corvette. Whether this is a legal boundary, or just good sense (the toys are free advertising, thus worth millions to a car company), I do not know. But it IS a normal and prevailing business practice. 3. When UP decides to asks you to pay a license fee to run model equipment with their trademarks at public shows, can you afford a lawyer to argue that you should have grandfather rights? 4. Silly or trivial examples perhaps, but in legal theory, we have our government grant trademark rights to individuals/companies/corporations because this practice is in the public interest, and promotes fair business practices. OTOH, it grates me that UP was one of the biggest land grant railroads in history. After my ancestors' interest (as citizens of the US) in who knows how much public lands were granted to UP (and its components) to get it going, now UP wants to make war on my pocketbook. UP may have a strong legal position -- with their bank of lawyers, one would hope so. Nevertheless, we should be asking (and asking our courts) if this is behavior that is in the public interest. I for one believe it is not. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:17:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] What does a trademark right really mean? In a message dated 9/27/04 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 > > There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into > consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting > area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed > "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed > their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a > generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of > dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something > different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar > name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP > claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are > grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to > have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to > avoid the future cost. 1. Good Will also includes product reputation and reliability, customer relationship histories, market share, and a bunch of other intangibles. 2. GM owns the Corvette trademark. But that does not mean they have their hand out to every toy company that makes a toy or model Corvette. Whether this is a legal boundary, or just good sense (the toys are free advertising, thus worth millions to a car company), I do not know. But it IS a normal and prevailing business practice. 3. When UP decides to asks you to pay a license fee to run model equipment with their trademarks at public shows, can you afford a lawyer to argue that you should have grandfather rights? 4. Silly or trivial examples perhaps, but in legal theory, we have our government grant trademark rights to individuals/companies/corporations because this practice is in the public interest, and promotes fair business practices. OTOH, it grates me that UP was one of the biggest land grant railroads in history. After my ancestors' interest (as citizens of the US) in who knows how much public lands were granted to UP (and its components) to get it going, now UP wants to make war on my pocketbook. UP may have a strong legal position -- with their bank of lawyers, one would hope so. Nevertheless, we should be asking (and asking our courts) if this is behavior that is in the public interest. I for one believe it is not. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Website Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:05:00 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sometime during this past weekend the Society's website host, US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and in the process it appears they obliterated it. Webmaster Steve Agostini and I are in the process of trying to get things back to normal but your indulgence is requested, as it may take awhile. We'll keep you all posted. In the meantime if you wish to use our e-Store you may access it directly from: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html Some of you may receive multiple copies of this message for which I apologize. However, we are attempting to broadcast it to the the widest possible audience of the PRR community. Thanx. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:13:14 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS web site X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi everyone, is there some kind of problem with the PRR historical site? = I have been trying to access it since approx. 5:30 pm (est) with no suc= cess. Thanks Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:13:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy = postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment = Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus = 5251. There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking = for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume = branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one = car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:13:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy = postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment = Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus = 5251. There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking = for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume = branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one = car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:22:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <001301c4a5a6$90a800a0$034aea42@ij.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2742.200 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: proper color for P70 coach steps in the mid-50s. The PRRT&HS Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book (p. 35) states that since mid-1938 the P70 step treads and vestibule floor were black. Prior to that they were olive. This book is available at the e-Store web site: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html It's the most authoritative source on painting PRR passenger equipment. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:05:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Website Sometime during this past weekend the Society's website host, US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and in the process it appears they obliterated it. Webmaster Steve Agostini and I are in the process of trying to get things back to normal but your indulgence is requested, as it may take awhile. We'll keep you all posted. In the meantime if you wish to use our e-Store you may access it directly from: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html Some of you may receive multiple copies of this message for which I apologize. However, we are attempting to broadcast it to the the widest possible audience of the PRR community. Thanx. Al Buchan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Frank, I think one of the PBM70's was used on the Octoro Branch on the "Mushroom" train. Custom Brass is the only one who made the car in HO Scale. It was part of a 2 car set (P70-PBM70). I managed to find one from a breakup set. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:12:42 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002301c4a5b0$d3996890$714956d8@FBRUA> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 6b73c4bfaee5d95e1a2467d70233b1a70a9da525759e265423a3bd15aac78453f9767002a601c342a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.247.217.84 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Frank: I have an interesting photo of a PBM70 as the last car of a 6-car mail = and express train under the wires at Elizabeth and pulled by a steam loco (I assume a K4). Unfortunately this is in an out-of-print 1949 book called "Railroads of New York." This car is also readily available in N scale made by Lima and Model = Power. You can regularly see these in stores or on Ebay. Doug Nelson. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Varieties Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:14 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment = Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus 5251. = There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume = branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:19:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm not as familiar with the Eastern branch lines, but I seem to remember seeing a photo of one on one of the milk trains. Walthers offered a similar car in its old kit line, but that was a Soo Line prototype, I believe. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Thus there are several rather tight wedgie shots in the Philly Chapter's > reprint of the Highline on the Octoraro Branch. Another was seen on the > New Holland branch. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:16:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Someone on PRR-Talk wrote and excuse me as their name escapes me now... That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. You all know that I have taken a hard stand against the Union Pacific Railroad regarding the way they have attempted to intimidate the industry regarding their Brand name ... as Dick Davidson also like to refer to the Union Pacific as a "FRANCHISE" and did so recently at the Pacific Northwest Association of Rail Shippers conference I just attended. A franchise, so let's all buy in... NOT! One thing I fear is that the Union Pacific just may win this first battle in an Omaha Court against Lionel and Athearn. The fact is that they both used a trademarked symbol and slogan without the permission of the Union Pacific RR. The question in court is does this trademark apply beyond the boundaries of the industry that the Union Pacific participates in and does it cause them harm? This could be a tough one to take to court and if I put odds to it I would say this is at best a 50/50 case. The appalling issue here with both the Union Pacific and now the CSX is that both companies are trying to license something they don't own and doing so through intimidation... The truth is that that neither company owns or controls the prior marks of their predecessors and have made no move to protect those marks and at least the UP has lost at least some control of some of the marks because they have allowed them to become abandoned. Nonetheless, The shadow that they have cast on their own industry and ours destroys all the goodwill they could ever hope to gain with "marks." Dick Davdison, get your face out of the mirror, your hands out of model railroad industries pockets, and get your railroad back on track... We all here think your BUILDING AMERICA on Deeded property, on the backs of your customers, through intimidation and one more thing, you run a business not a franchise... "Franchise" the newest fashion in CEO sling words. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:04:08 GMT Subject: [PRR] UP Logo Mess Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:05:35 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Perhaps we should reverse the UP trademark so the they become PU....just a thought. Jim MCDaniel, Delmarva where Uncle Pete is rarely if ever seen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:18:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please discontinue the discussion of trademarks, etc., on the PRR-talk list. Please take it to a UP or CSX list, or perhaps a trademark list, if there is one. There is no PRR content. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:18:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please discontinue the discussion of trademarks, etc., on the PRR-talk list. Please take it to a UP or CSX list, or perhaps a trademark list, if there is one. There is no PRR content. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:57:28 -0500 To: "'PRR-Talk'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 28, 2004, at 11:12 PM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This car is also readily available in N scale made by Lima and Model > Power. > You can regularly see these in stores or on Ebay. As I read this I figured Doug knows his stuff... but that can't be right!! So I went looking and dang, that car is a PBM70! So how is it that a manufacturer produces such an obscure prototype that wouldn't even be correct for most PRR layouts??? Heck, they sell it as a "standard combine". Who'd a thunk?? Of course, it does go with their "standard coach" which is a P70 albeit with the incorrect trucks. (both these cars sound like excellent fodder for the upcoming PRRPro P70 project!!) You want bizarre? Look at this car in Amtrak paint!! http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp8627.htm Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:05:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is a picture plus a drawing in the August 1963 issue of Model Railroader. I am in the process of bashing one from a P70 coach. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Park Varieties" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:13 PM Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus 5251. There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:12:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com When the owner of the shop where I worked bought out a Hobbytown, we inherited a stack of these little beasties. I believe trains was about 10th on the knowledge list of the previous owner, based upon the other inventory we inherited. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" > You want bizarre? Look at this car in Amtrak paint!! > http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp8627.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:50:58 -0500 To: "Paul & Dot" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 29, 2004, at 10:05 AM, Paul & Dot wrote: > There is a picture plus a drawing in the August 1963 issue of Model > Railroader. > I am in the process of bashing one from a P70 coach. > Paul Paul, PLEASE! Give us more details ! Also, feel free to join us on the PRRPro list next month as we start our P70 project. The PB70 and PBM70 derivatives are fair game too! Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:03:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Location of F3's in Keystone From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Haven't had a chance to take a second look myself (yet), but Bill Lewis just called and said that in the new issue of The Keystone there is a photo of F3's on page 11 from 1958 with no location noted. Bill says it is in York, Pa., with the two stall enginehouse in the background of the F units. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:53:42 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al, I ordered a copy of the book today. Thanks. Though I model in N scale, I look forward to the P70 project, as I will most certainly learn something. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'TCJ Riggs'" ; Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:22 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports > Re: proper color for P70 coach steps in the mid-50s. > > The PRRT&HS Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book (p. 35) states > that since mid-1938 the P70 step treads and vestibule floor were black. > Prior to that they were olive. This book is available at the e-Store web > site: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html It's the most > authoritative source on painting PRR passenger equipment. > > Al Buchan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "fayemike@netzero.net" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:53:44 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] The PRR in Detroit Hello to Rick & list, Yes, Joy Rd, Grand River Ave, Schaffer Ave and Lyndon St should appear on any good map of Detroit. They are main thoroughfares. I live about 35 miles north and moved to Michigan just about the time Fort Street Union Depot was closed and demolished soon afterwards. Mike Nebel #1831 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:43:22 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1E1E7E90-1217-11D9-9CC3-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 6b73c4bfaee5d95e1a2467d70233b1a70a9da525759e2654a931a31f2503efacaad66f8f872a9b4d387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.247.216.61 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The correct P70 trucks (2D-P5) are available in N scale from American Limited. Doug. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:57 AM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 On Sep 28, 2004, at 11:12 PM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This car is also readily available in N scale made by Lima and Model > Power. > You can regularly see these in stores or on Ebay. As I read this I figured Doug knows his stuff... but that can't be right!! So I went looking and dang, that car is a PBM70! So how is it that a manufacturer produces such an obscure prototype that wouldn't even be correct for most PRR layouts??? Heck, they sell it as a "standard combine". Who'd a thunk?? Of course, it does go with their "standard coach" which is a P70 albeit with the incorrect trucks. (both these cars sound like excellent fodder for the upcoming PRRPro P70 project!!) You want bizarre? Look at this car in Amtrak paint!! http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp8627.htm Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Detroit's PRR plant X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/28/04 11:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:58:01 -0500 > From: "Jim Hediger" > Subject: RE:The PRR in Detroit > > In the 1960s, the Pennsy operated over the C&O (PM District) from Alexis, O. > to Carleton, MI. At Carleton, the C&O crossed the DT&I main line just before > the PRR diverged to the NE and crossed the DT&I Dearborn Branch at Penford > to reach Lincoln Yard in suburban Lincoln Park (just SE of the Wabash Oakwood > Yard). > > PRR continued north to the Wabash Bridge where it entered the trackage of > the Union Belt of Detroit RR. (The Union Belt was jointly owned by the PRR, > Wabash, and C&O), which provided a double track route through Delray Tower for > all three RR's to reach Fort Street Union Depot downtown at Fort &Third Sts. > The PRR also had a freighthouse just east of FSUD. Passenger steam engines > were serviced at the 16th St. roundhouse, while diesels were serviced at > Lincoln Yard and turned on the wye at Delray on the way to the depot. > > The Foreman Wye was just east of the Wabash Bridge and PRR switchers used it > to reach the huge Ford Rouge Plant and industrial trackage on Detroit's west > side. > > Regards, > > Jim Hediger, senior editor > MODEL RAILROADER Magazine > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash tapes -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Lines West specific equipement emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > I know Lines West had some cabins and steam locos with modifications used > on LW only or as a general rule...........is there somewhere I can go to that I don't know of any one place to go, and the answer depends on the era. Some hints: 1. In the beginning, the companies that would become Lines West bought as they saw fit. After becoming part of the Pennsy system, a lot of locomotives were carried as "odd class". For example, a 4-4-0 from Alco Pittsburgh might be rostered as D-odd class. 2. Once consolidation took hold, new equipment was PRR standard. However, a Lines West company might buy that standard engine from Alco or Lima instead of Baldwin or Altoona. Also, Lines West originated some PRR standard designs which were not copied by Lines East. This includes the N1 (Fort Wayne designed), the H10, the Glb hopper (Standard Steel Car design instead of Lines East's GLa from Pressed Steel Car). The N6 cabin car, a Lines West rebuild of 4-wheel cabins, came with two cupola designs, the N6a (Fort Wayne) and N6b (Panhandle Division). 3. Lines West also was the recipient of Pennsy's USRA power -- L2s (five) and N2s (130?). And shortly after WW1, Lines West was still asserting its independence by centering headlights on the smokebox instead of at the top. 4. By the late days of steam, about the only real distinction in equipment was that Lines West had some additional loco classes, and liked to build up coal boards in various ways. Note that somewhere along the line, the N5 (Lines East) came west. 5. After dieselization, about the only sign of Lines West was the concentration of FM switchers, particularly the H-10-44. By the Sixties, some N6b went east, further blurring the distinction. I don't normally think of the T1 as a Lines West animal, but you're right -- like all things that embarassed the guys in Philadelphia , they wound up on Lines West and finished dead at Crestline. Of course, there's a lot more to a railroad than its rolling stock. Lines West also had building plans of its own, and around 1900 still had its own signaling and interlocking standards. But by the period most of us are interested in, I like to say Lines West (especially the Panhandle side) was like some strange Midwestern granger line, except assembled from the standard PRR parts catalog. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West specific equipement X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 5:09:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > I know Lines West had some cabins and steam locos with modifications used > on LW only or as a general rule...........is there somewhere I can go to that > lists these unique LW changes or maybe someone that knows what we did here > different than Lines East?? > I just finished reading the book "SET UP RUNNING" and in it there was made > mention of the occasional piece of equipement that drifted to Williamsport. > In there, O.P. Orr mentions the N6b Cabins and H9s or H10s's with the inward > sloping upper extensions on the tender coal bunkers. There was mention of the > T1, N1, and HH1 being LW stuff too but I am after specific mods to "regular" > PRR Cabins and locos...... > THANKS! Earl Myers > PRRT&HS member > I don't know of any one place to go, and the answer depends on the era. Some hints: 1. In the beginning, the companies that would become Lines West bought as they saw fit. After becoming part of the Pennsy system, a lot of locomotives were carried as "odd class". For example, a 4-4-0 from Alco Pittsburgh might be rostered as D-odd class. 2. Once consolidation took hold, new equipment was PRR standard. However, a Lines West company might buy that standard engine from Alco or Lima instead of Baldwin or Altoona. Also, Lines West originated some PRR standard designs which were not copied by Lines East. This includes the N1 (Fort Wayne designed), the H10, the Glb hopper (Standard Steel Car design instead of Lines East's GLa from Pressed Steel Car). The N6 cabin car, a Lines West rebuild of 4-wheel cabins, came with two cupola designs, the N6a (Fort Wayne) and N6b (Panhandle Division). 3. Lines West also was the recipient of Pennsy's USRA power -- L2s (five) and N2s (130?). And shortly after WW1, Lines West was still asserting its independence by centering headlights on the smokebox instead of at the top. 4. By the late days of steam, about the only real distinction in equipment was that Lines West had some additional loco classes, and liked to build up coal boards in various ways. Note that somewhere along the line, the N5 (Lines East) came west. 5. After dieselization, about the only sign of Lines West was the concentration of FM switchers, particularly the H-10-44. By the Sixties, some N6b went east, further blurring the distinction. I don't normally think of the T1 as a Lines West animal, but you're right -- like all things that embarassed the guys in Philadelphia , they wound up on Lines West and finished dead at Crestline. Of course, there's a lot more to a railroad than its rolling stock. Lines West also had building plans of its own, and around 1900 still had its own signaling and interlocking standards. But by the period most of us are interested in, I like to say Lines West (especially the Panhandle side) was like some strange Midwestern granger line, except assembled from the standard PRR parts catalog. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Detroit's PRR plant PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > From: "Jim Hediger" > Subject: RE:The PRR in Detroit > > In the 1960s, the Pennsy operated over the C&O (PM District) from Alexis, O. > to Carleton, MI. At Carleton, the C&O crossed the DT&I main line just before > the PRR diverged to the NE and crossed the DT&I Dearborn Branch at Penford > to reach Lincoln Yard in suburban Lincoln Park (just SE of the Wabash Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash tapes -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:14:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Seasonal Open Houses From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9C3C60DE-12E2-11D9-9DBE-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The holidays are approaching -- as is November (Model Railroading Month) -- and that means....it's layout open house season! I've already started receiving open house notices which has spurred me to make a call for open house announcements. If you or your club is having an open house over the coming months, and PRR content is involved, please send me the details for posting on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings. The announcement must include the date(s) of the open house, name of the layout, URL (if there is a web site), very brief description (1-3 sentences), hours of the open house, address of the open house. I will not make an incomplete post. If you are submitting information on behalf of a club, please acknowledge that you are providing the information in an official capacity. Thank you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:45:17 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce and list, The magazine article isn't much. There are two pictures and two = drawings. One of a P70 and the other of a PBM70. I had an extra P70 and = decided to try and bash the PBM70 from this kit. When I overlaid the = side of the P70 over the drawing everything seemed to line up. I filled = in the windows that were not part of PBM with styrene, cut off the one = vestibule window, shortened the roof and floor, added the baggage doors = plus the mail door. I sort of come to a complete stop in the process for = the past couple of years. Health issues and personal things are the = culprit. I have been reading the post on the modelers list and have been = able to acquire all the kits and all the parts. Now I need to take the = time to work on all of them plus the PBM70. Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:33:06 -0700 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/30/04 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:10:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey Guys.... While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. It's hard to belive that the poles are still up. I think the last GG1 was built in 1942 at the shops. Also GG1 4876 was rebuilt in '52-53. The poles were made from wood and the wire hangers were still attached. The poles start at the old erecting shops then go west for about a quarter mile. A rare piece of PRR history. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:48:25 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8324@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. thread-index: AcSnEOVGi93sX8bdT8a+/nNajrW3AQABuwLQ From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Probably a crane runway. Never any catenary poles in Altoona. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. Hey Guys.... =20 While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. It's hard to belive that the poles are still up. I think the last GG1 was built in 1942 at the shops. Also GG1 4876 was rebuilt in '52-53. The poles were made from wood and the wire hangers were still attached. The poles start at the old erecting shops then go west for about a quarter mile. A rare piece of PRR history.=20 Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:58:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 30, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > Probably a crane runway. Never any catenary poles in Altoona. Bill -- In the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum there are photos of catenary in Altoona. They also included it on their HO model railroad, showing a "test track" for electric locos. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > zootowerprr@webtv.net > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:11 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. > > > Hey Guys.... > > While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR > Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. It's hard to > belive that the poles are still up. I think the last GG1 was built in > 1942 at the shops. Also GG1 4876 was rebuilt in '52-53. > The poles were made from wood and the wire hangers were still > attached. The poles start at the old erecting shops then go west for > about a quarter mile. A rare piece of PRR history. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:48:55 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bill, I may have to disagree with you on this subject. These poles were on a single track that went right to the mainline (old passenger main 3 & 4). These poles had hangers for catenary. Bill, I know your knowledge is greater then mine on the PRR but "seeing is believing". One of the shop guides did say that this was the old electric test track. The poles are along the shop fence line up against the NS main line, but it's pretty much impossible to photograph from that part the yards because you would have stand inside the yard across from the erecting shop. I'm looking for some published photos of the erecting shop area. Maybe these poles will be in some of them. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:08 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:08 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:27:39 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted Andrews asked: "Who has come out with detailed cab interiors for F-units? I know that Athearn Genesis has an interior for their F-'s. They are pretty good; I don't know if they are offered separately. Are there other manufacturers and are they any good?" GSB also offered an F-unit interior during the late 1980s - early 1990s. It consisted of a styrene floor, dash, and rear bulkhead, and had white metal seats and control stand. Unfortunately, it's long out of production. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:52:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/2004 1:24:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR > Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. A tour of the shops with the Penn State Altoona conference some number of Junes ago included the powerhouse, in which I noticed a rotary convertor with an output indicated for 11500 volts AC at 25 cycles: inquiry to the Conrail tour guide had response that the convertor was there to supply single-phase power to a test/break-in track just outside the shop. I do not recall seeing catenary strung at the time (late 1980s), but I have a visual remembrance of photos that show test track as being along the western side of the shop buildings, no more than one or two tracks from the buildings. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA P.S.: that tour guide was the same one who I convinced to take me to the master scale, where I got UNDER the scale to take pictures, which I have been looking for for some time now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:26:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, I just recently bought a couple interiors from Keystone Locomotive Works as their part #HO-3301 - they note that they are being made under license from GSB - so I think you can still get them - they are nice, and very well detailed, plastic and white metal parts. I had tried to get the cab interior parts from Athearn to use on my Highliners kits, as that is what they are designed to fit, but the hobby shop I was working through couldn't get them, believe they said the part number off the repair parts list, #G19201, wasn't on the list of parts you could order. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Ted Andrews Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. > Ted Andrews asked: > "Who has come out with detailed cab interiors for F-units? I know that Athearn Genesis has an interior for their F-'s. They are pretty good; I don't know if they are offered separately. Are there other manufacturers and are they any good?" > > GSB also offered an F-unit interior during the late 1980s - early 1990s. It consisted of a styrene floor, dash, and rear bulkhead, and had white metal seats and control stand. Unfortunately, it's long out of production. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Whalthers coaches Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:15:38 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 2, 2004, at 9:02 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Are either the 48 seat or the 52 seat coaches prototypical for the > PRR? If so in what service were they used? Thank you, Norm Bell Norm, The 46/48 seat coach is based on an AT&SF prototype (note that there were 48 seats, but that only 46 were sold to the public). The 52 seat coach is based on a SCL prototype. Its is off from an ACL car by 1/2 window, and is also very close to the P85 coaches that the PRR used for its contribution to the Southwind and Champion. I'm planning on modifying one with new window strips to use as a P85 for my Champion. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Pfeiffer" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4s tender question Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:22:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [151.197.9.124] at Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:20:34 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug, I sent them an email several days ago asking the same question about the K4 tender class. I have not received a reply. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Morning Sun Book Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 20:56:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mike, I have the book you mention and yes there is a section on the PRR Elmira Branch. The section is 9 pages long and includes 21 pictures. The photos contain mostly steam and they were taken in 1957. The coverage starts with Southport Yard in Elmira and heads south to Grover. Locomotives included are of the M-1, L-1, I-1, H-9, F7, PA, GP7, and RS11 types. J. Smith > Has anyone on the list reviewed "Trackside Around Sayre-Towanda-Waverly" > by > Morning Sun Books? Supposedly there is a section on the Elmira Branch in > it. > > Mike Morrow > PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI PRR J1 discovery Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:43:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am sorry I did not pass on this info as you did. OTOH, if I had known about it I would not have had to return one J1 and nearly wrecked a second one before discovering the same thing. I was puzzled because 9 of the axle bearings have keepers built into the frame. As you indicated the center one floats the bearing on one side and needs the cover plate to be carefully placed with the one tiny ridge as the keeper. I have a feeling this is done to allow some flex in the mechanism when changing out flanged or traction-tire driver sets. Given that a lot of people will do this, it would have been helpful to have some instructions. OTOH, it falls in the same category as my lucky guess on the M1b that the tender was held on with a screw, not a friction fit like the T1 :-). Of course I have never ever been able to remove the T1 tender shell,but fortunately don't have to now that I discovered 100% ops mode programming. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Breon" I've recently diagnosed and repaired a problem I was having with the operation of one of my HO scale Broadway Limited Imports PRR J1 models and thought that perhaps some of you may benefit from my experience. I was very impressed with how smoothly my model ran right out of the box and after a reasonable break in period I decided to install the optional traction tire-equipped driver to increase the model's pulling power. The installation went smoothly (or so I thought) and I was pleased with the additional traction available. However, soon after beginning operation on a 65-car hopper train, I noticed the locomotive had developed a slight hop with each revolution. It was quite noticeable and also seemed to introduce a slight bind in the mechanism which would cause the model to hesitate and stall at the lower speed steps. I had read on one of the lists about the front pair of drivers contacting the cylinders and had already noted the same problem on mine and clearanced this area prior to installing the traction tire. Careful examination of the traction tire drivers eliminated an out-of-round condition so I decided to switch back to the original smooth driver to see if the hitch disappeared. Much to my dismay, the locomotive continued to demonstrate the same hop and bind. I decided to pull the driver retainer plate off another time and carefully inspect the drive gear on the center axle. Perhaps a piece of debris was lodged in one of the teeth. This inspection also showed nothing. If you're still with me, this is where I found the problem. Each driver axle has a pair of brass or bronze journals similar to those found in brass imports. They all register in a slot provided in the locomotive's frame. Unlike brass imports, the journal is not an "H" section, but rather more of a "T" section and relies on a bushing on the axle to keep it pushed outboard and properly located in the frame slot. I noticed that the journal on the engineer's side of the center, gear-equipped axle was not properly registered. The journal had slid towards the center gear which allowed the driver axle to cock slightly, thus creating the hitch and bind with each revolution. All journals except for this one have a bushing that keeps them slid outboard on their respective axles and properly registered. I did not see any provision for retaining the misaligned journal. I was just about to pull the driver from its axle to install a bushing when I noticed a small plastic ridge on the underside of the retainer plate. Sure enough, this ridge was there to retain its corresponding journal in the frame slots. This time I carefully re-assembled the model taking care to keep the journal properly registered until the retainer plate was fully secured. This did it! The model now runs flawlessly without any trace of a hitch or bind. Hopefully, one of you will benefit from this story. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:14:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You didn't say what era , but you could also run A-A-A or use a powered Alco PB as the prototype did. Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their Bs. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Rea" To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:19:59 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ex-Pennsy Engine Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:32:32 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <4141CE73.15827.2DAC8409@localhost> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSXegdz4rHtbOVMQhGhG4bwJsIZUgAA08PA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken, There is more to come. I keep getting additional data from other list members all this afternoon. I will try to compile a master list from this. Jerry, If you are lurking, I can email you the original MS word table when its done, for inclusion on KC. I leave it to you and your itty-bitty friends to do the same for N scale. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hough Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:56 PM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Andy! Thank You!! This list is EXACTLY the cross reference I needed. Jerrys site is great but there are cars that were discontinued when I managed a hobby shop 30 years ago and finding them at a train show is near impossible now. Way to go!. Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:59:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <15c.3e695461.2e748d6e@aol.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Evan Leisey asked: "Just picked up a Bowser hopper kit lettered for Bethlehem Mines. This car is of an older style open top hopper with the clam shell doors (rapid discharge). As lettered, is this an authentic model or an exercise of model manufactures' license?" According to John Nehrich, Bethlehem Mines did indeed have these cars in 1924 and 1927; however, all were off the roster by 1932. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B express reefers Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:39:16 -0500 To: Frederick Ripley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Hello all, > > I am looking at the Walthers Sept. catalog, and the various versions > of the > R50B express reefer (p.26). It seems to me these have been discussed > fairly > extensively in the past, so I'm sorry for any repetitition. My > questions > are fairly brief however. > > 1. Were these used in quantity up to the end of the PRR? Fred, They were getting pretty scarce towards the end. Bob Johnson, way back in January 2002 said (on this list) "At the beginning of 1967 there were only six R50B cars left on the passenger equipment roster. All were gone from the roster by the end of 1967." This email from Bob also contains excellent details on paint, lettering and safety appliances. I would note that during our PRRPro R50B project Bob determined that single grab on each end of the side was a further modification of 2 left grab car, and not a car that had escaped freight car appliance addition. For more details on this and sprucing up the model you can check out the PRRPro archives (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) > 2. If so, then I take it the keystone only scheme (932-5883) would be > most > applicable for mid-60's? This scheme posed an interesting problem for Walthers. I know it doesn't sound like them, but they wanted not only prototypical schemes, but they wanted documented photographic evidence and car numbers! Photos of "scotchlite" keystone R50Bs are very rare! I can't guarantee the numbers for the keystone R50Bs, but the scheme is correct (Greg Martin or Bob Johnson might be able to add more). This scheme would have started appearing in 1962, but cars may not have made it into this scheme for years, if at all, so you could also use a heavily weathered "Non-REA" scheme (the REA lettering was removed in 1954). > 3. Does one apply nos., like Walthers passenger cars, so more than one > road no. can be created, or do they come with nos. applied? No, the cars are numbered. The best way to get multiple numbers is to buy the 2 pack and the single, for three different numbers. After that, you're back to removing numbers and decals. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:18:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 03:05 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS > Cgo Terminal Chapter > > -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- > From: "Robert Vercel" > I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a > question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster > for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne > divisions. With regards to cabins, there's a "just missed" roster from 1957 on Keystone Crossings, which is searchable by divisions and includes most of the actual assignments. Address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ With regards to locomotives, you need Form 229. The Motive Operations section of Keystone Crossings has one for 1954, plus links to others on other web sites for 1944 and 1957. These are broken down by division. The address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/ Hope this helps! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:00:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers sleeper From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 01:46 PM, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Is Walthers PS 6-6-4 sleeper PRR correct? for 1955-57? No. PRR didn't have any 6-6-4's. > > Did anyone else see that Alto tower is coming out in a model? Yes. The N Scale Architect is bringing out ALTO tower this Novemberish... in N scale. They are considering doing it in HO scale. Additional towers are being considered. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wathers REA cars Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:11:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Frederick, The Railway Express Agency (Hunter Green) (932-6241), REA EXpress (Hunter Green) (932-6242) and REA Express (Chromate Green) (932-6243) could all be seen in the 60's. The Railway Express agency, Striped Scheme is not appropriate for these cars as it was applied to the 1947(?) cars only, and for a short time. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: [PRR] Wathers REA cars > Another head-end question: > > On the same page of the Walthers catalog as the R50B's are REA express cars. > Of these various schemes (chromate green, hunter green, striped), > > (1) which are most accurate? > > (2) which were most common on PRR passenger and mail trains, mid-60's? > > > The hunter green scheme is the one I am most familiar with, but presumably > the others are possibilities too. > > Thanks, Fred R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:25:50 -0500 To: Greg Ritacco X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 14, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Greg Ritacco wrote: > Hi Group, > With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in > steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is > a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier > photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone > educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. > PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you > accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. > Greg Ritacco Greg, Yes, the steam line connections are of two different types. The "articulated mechanical gizmo" is a metallic steam line connector. I do not know the chronology of these, but they were common in the 1930's and 1940s. This part is duplicated by the Cal-Scale part (see the R50B project information at the PRRPro site). As for brake and signal lines, the lines themselves were of different sizes, but I'm not sure about the connectors. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography revisited Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:27:32 -0400 To: robert netzlof X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 15, 2004, at 10:40 PM, robert netzlof wrote: > I'm embarrassed to say that I can't find a copy of the "Partial > Bibliography of CT1000". Fortunately, I had put a copy of the data > online at > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Documentation/Scales/biblio.html You also posted it to the list, so it appears in the web archive... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:53 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, Thanks for the thoughts, but I am fine here in St. Joe Beach. Lost power at 4 PM, yesterday, not from Ivan but from a lightning strike to the substation near me. But we had tornadoes all around last night. And 500 very expensive beachfront homes are now on an island w/o connection to the mainland. Worse, 12 were swept away. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way > Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent hurricanes, > but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow and causing a > lot of tornados. > > We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce Smith > (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to name a > few. > > The I-10 bridge at Pensacola, for instance, has seen better times... > > http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_156_images/ 091604_ivan6.jpg > > Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:59:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <96913E48-08CA-11D9-9570-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison between the two as of yet. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:49:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Updates From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 08:52 AM, director wrote: > By the way, the most recent updates/photos posted about the project > went on the Horseshoe Curve NRHS Chpater website in August of this > year. Scott, just for the record, are you saying the Horseshoe Curve NRHS Chapter web site is the authoritative source of info for the 1361 project? I'm fine with that, but there's been a history of, shall we say, "miscommunication" and posting of "non-authoritative" information. My goal here is constructive, not instigative. But please clarify that you are indeed sending folks to a web site other than the museum's for authoritative information on behalf of the museum. Thanks for the update. Hope to see more details soon. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:07:39 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <091720042201.26539.414B5ECD000A8B4D000067AB220076143802019B040A0D0B020E9C079D080C@comcast.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The trucks in the Walthers photo look like Pullman 242 trucks which were correct for about half the 12-1s in PRR service. Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of chrisandbelton@comcast.net Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 3:02 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper The trucks in the pic of that PRR 12-1 Pullman are the same as those shown earlier on the B&O car. Are they correct for Pennsy? If so, what era? They look like top-equalized trucks to my amateur eyes. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. > > Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is > ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The > Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison > between the two as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:49:36 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] keystone crossing page Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Earl/all: I can access Jerry's server from here. It quite possibly just came back on line... Either try hitting refresh button on your browser, or see if this problem goes away in the morning when the internet gets used to it being back on-line. If not, e-mail the list back with an "attn: Jerry Britton" in the subject and I'm sure he'll get it figured out... Jeff Warner Earl Myers wrote: >List; > I tried Jerry's sites also and am getting "Page not found" messages........... >Earl Myers >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:53:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:47:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, There were post WWII cars built for the PRR to a different 4-4-2 design than the pre-war versions. Of course the pre-war versions went to lesser trains as the new cars went to the Broadway Limited and other premier trains. The new version eliminated the upper berth little windows and changed the spacing of and placement of a number of bedrooms windows. Car sides for the post war new design are available from Laser Horizons. Regards, Dennis Sautters PRRT&HS #1974 In a message dated 9/20/2004 9:30:17 PM Central Standard Time, fjr@mchsi.com writes: Hello all, I enjoyed and found useful the summary of the upcoming Walthers 2nd release of PRR 10-5's and 4-4-2's in the recent "Keystone Modeler" (sorry, I don't remember who wrote this). My question is the following: of the 4-4-2 schemes, the writer describes one as postwar, w/out skirting, but with the upper birth windows, and adds "Yikes!". "Yikes" doesn't sound good- is it the windows that are wrong? I would like to have one of these cars, still in use in extra service in the 1960's, but not if it has a major problem. Thanks for any info, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:22:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:48:10 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken: Looks interesting... My first questions is: How much of the sound effects, etc can be turned off individually... I don't want a K-4 announcing itself at stations automatically every time you stop it the way the 027 MTH models do (there's this thing called "red signals")... Same applies to other sound effects...hopefully on DCC you can control each individually with a function button and all the "automatic" effects in their 027 stuff would go away... Also, the smoke would have to go as I don't really want a layout with residue all over the rails (and MTH's 027 scale smoke smells BAD).... Thanks for keeping us informed. Jeff Warner KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: >Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale >piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- >Ken McCorry > http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:56:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, The Pennsy didn't own any Phase 1 GP9s. The quickest/easiest spotting feature to ID a Ph1 unit is to check how many of the engine room doors have louver sets. As built, Ph1 units had louver sets only on the first two engine room doors--the tall doors for the uninitiated. (BTW, I define a "set" as two distinct areas of louver stampings on each door--one over the other. Sorry, but I forget how many louvers are in each.) For many roads, these proved inadequate for providing sufficient cooling. Therefore, many roads either ordered a set of louvers added to the third door, put in their own, or swapped blank doors for louvered ones to help prevent overheating. I'm sure there are other spotting features, but to me the doors are the easiest to find. Chuck Friedlein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Zoeller" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:49 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Can someone steer me to an online reference to the above, with spotting tips? My question is inspired by the P2K GP9 Phase I with QSI sound announced. No PRR, but the undec appeals if Pennsy ever had one of these. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:26:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 02:18 PM, EMACGIS@aol.com wrote: > Do you know what dates these cars will carry? Any dates newer than > 1957? Don't know. The Circle Keystone's won't be any later than 1954, or they would have been repainted to Shadow Keystone... though they would have survived in Circle Keystone into the 1960's. Any Shadow Keystone is 1954 or later. If you are modeling 1957, I'd recommend about 50/50 mix. Perhaps more in Circle Keystone, if anything. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:48:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSg4y8DshZwt0L0TemDabzOQKo8tAAAfzAA In-Reply-To: <092220042028.126.4151E07C0001AD140000007E21604666489D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would venture to guess that it has more to do with the law suit than with the success of any particular products such as the HO line. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:29 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Lionel and MTH This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker's parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:43:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] U25C Clarification From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:15:16 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tucson3985@aol.com wrote: > The facts of the MTH--Lionel suit are hazy, but I believe it involves > Lionel's Korean manufacturer's alleged copying of MTH designs. Ivan, They're not hazy at all. Korea Brass stole the digital designs that MTH had developed and peddled them to Lionel as if they were their own. Some Lionel executives knew they weren't developed by Korea Brass nor Lionel but took advantage of the situation and had Korea brass produce very near identical models of the MTH engines. > Ivan Abrams > (and yes, I'm a lawyer, but be kind--someone had to do it and my number was > picked...) That's okay, my brother is also both a train collector and lawyer. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Oakwood yard Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:42:38 -0500 To: LeeRainey@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 27, 2004, at 5:29 AM, LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very > attractive > new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at > http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html > > My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the > class > number? Class G24, 750 cars. See http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24 Note that beginning in the early 1930's the composite sides were replaced by steel and there were no composite cars left by 1938. Mont Switzer did a nice article on modernizing the HO scale Intermountain kit in the February 2001 Mainline Modeler. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] BM70M question Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:16:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSj5KBFhcQEOC2iRL6g96LRa3clnAArv4NA In-reply-to: <000d01c4a3e3$e88524c0$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have heard that it was most often used for Company mail and material. Its existence was not because it was needed, but rather because the space was available. The PRR had standard plans for 70 foot cars, but the PO department only paid the 60 foot mail "apartments" (or 30, or 15 foot), so 10 feet of a 70 foot car body would be unpaid for. The PRR thus built the cars with 10 feet of baggage space and then searched for a use for it. Other RRs without "standard" plans just built 60 foot RPO cars. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Zoeller Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 12:15 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] BM70M question These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used significantly for checked baggage or express? I presume the door was then locked to the RPO section. If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member (from the RPO crew, I mean)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: RE: [PRR] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:55:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1dd.2c740f8a.2e89e061@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Passenger trains had a brake pipe pressure of 110 lbs where as freight trains were either 80 or 90 lbs. Passenger brake equipment had graduated release which freight systems did not. I think you'll find that these cabin cars were equipped with graduated release. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 5:30 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:06:30 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO's in 15' increments... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, BD85R-Conv. 1964 to BM85 #6691-6694 85" Dormitory-Baggage-35' baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948-49 2E-P5,2E-P6 BD85R-Conv. 1964 to BM85 #6696 85" Dormitory-Baggage-35' baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948 2E-P5,2E-P6 BM85- Blt. as BD85 #6691-94-1948-49 -Conv. 1964 #6595-6598 x 85' Baggage-RPO-21'8" baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948-49 2EP5 BM85A-Blt. as PLB85 #6696-1948-Conv. 1964 #6599 x 85' Baggage-RPO-21'8" baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948 2EP5 Regards, Eddie RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/27/04 1:14:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... > > The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read > somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard > RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the > standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or > partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the > longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. > > I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. > Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO > compartments in those cars? > > OK, experts -- how'd I do? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:44:33 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <002301c4a5b0$d3996890$714956d8@FBRUA> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2742.200 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? Frank, et al.: Page 90, 91 of the spring 1993 issue of "The Keystone" has a photo, albeit small but even better - a floor plan and side and end elevations. BTW the article says there were only four, so pictures would be rather rare. If you don't have this issue its available at the e-Store at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html It's the first issue listed. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:05:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? Perhaps we should reverse the UP trademark so the they become PU....just a thought. Jim MCDaniel, Delmarva where Uncle Pete is rarely if ever seen ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Craig Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:37:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Some months ago. this topic came up & I was rebuked by one of the members for discussing it. This is my first post since. I have also seen a few messages on some related Yahoo groups where if a moderator (excuse me, "lead moderator") takes exception to content, falling outside their boundaries of "strictly PRR-related" that members are bounced. With all due respect, the trademark issue will come around to every road sooner or later (as soon as the current trademark holder realizes there is a buck to be made) Unless it gets to a point where trademark discussions are pre-empting everything else, I find it petty to pick and censor/censure people who make mention of it. We're not talking about trolls posting flames or porn here, it is a subject that is relevant to the modelers of every current railroad & fallen flag. I think it is relevant to the PRR (& the hope that we will not have to pay a "gratuity" for every keystone added to our collections) and should we ignore it then we will have no one left to blame but ourselves when down the road we find ourselves paying a "usage tariff" Not that I want to debate the matter at length, just that I abhor censorship, it kills creativity & sense of community. regards, Craig somewhere North of East Pittsburgh -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:18 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread Please discontinue the discussion of trademarks, etc., on the PRR-talk list. Please take it to a UP or CSX list, or perhaps a trademark list, if there is one. There is no PRR content. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:36:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 30, 2004, at 02:50 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > Who has come out with detailed cab interiors for F-units? I know that > Athearn Genesis has an interior for thier F-'s. They are pretty good; > I don't know if they are offered separately. > > Are there other manufacturers and are they any good. > > The engine that the interiors are for is a Stewart American Model Builders had a series of cab interiors for many years, but a recent visit (moments ago) to their web site shows they are no longer listed. You might be able to find some around. Merchandise Service shows 2 F-unit interiors for Athearn locos in stock, but I suspect that might be subject to verification. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 00:13:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Western Maryland had some also. See top photo page 105 of Ball's Pennsylvania RR 1940's and 50's Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: "'Walter Prusick'" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers > N&W. Class H1, I believe. I have several Stewarts which I run in a N&W cut > with ECW H2a's. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Walter > Prusick > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:25 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers > > Guys, > > Did any of the railroads which interchanged with the Pennsy in the Western > PA area have a fishbelly hopper (ala Stewart Hobbies) on/in their roster? If > so which one/s and whom should I contact to get some information? I intended > to do a couple of GLca, until I got around to Mr. Teichmoeller's book. Close > (maybe) but no cigar. > > Thanks in advance, > Walt Prusick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 02:05:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walt writes: Guys, Did any of the railroads which interchanged with the Pennsy in the Western, PA area have a fishbelly hopper (ala Stewart Hobbies) on/in their roster? If so which one/s and whom should I contact to get some information? I intended to do a couple of GLca, until I got around to Mr. Teichmoeller's book. Close (maybe) but no cigar. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick Walt, The P&WV had cars similar to, but not exactly the same as the Stewart WM "fishbelly" hoppers. I have a photo of the gray P&WV cars with black lettering that were used in limestone service. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] "fishbelly" hoppers Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:40:29 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walt Prusick asked: "Did any of the railroads which interchanged with the Pennsy in the Western PA area have a fishbelly hopper (ala Stewart Hobbies) on/in their roster? If so which one/s and whom should I contact to get some information?" The Stewart model most closely matches WM 10001-10500, built in 1939. WM 10501-10800, 10801-12400, 12401-13400, 13401-14400 can also be modeled from this kit by modifying the model with a Duryea cushion underframe. The kit has ladders, which only matches the WM cars and 100 cars built in 1942 for the AC&Y. Fortunately, the ladders are separate parts, and if you replace the ladders with grab irons, you can model cars from the following roads: C&I D&H LV (C&O secondhand user - 1956) N&W (Class HL, NOT H-1 - modify end supports and add peaked ends) If you carefully remove the rivets, you can model welded cars for the following roads: CNJ/CRP (B&O secondhand user) RDG See Alan Mende's article in the June 1994 Railmodel Journal on modeling these cars. ACL and NS also had these cars. More information on all of these cars can be found on the pay side of the RPI website. http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Hoppers/95-2-Hoppers-fishbelly-side-types.asp "I intended to do a couple of GLca, until I got around to Mr. Teichmoeller's book. Close (maybe) but no cigar." Unless you've had a 12-pack of Guinness, not even close. Wrong number of ribs, side profile, ends, and the model is too large. In the end, you'd put in more work than you would have if you built a Westerfield GLCA. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:59:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Part 1 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR CT 1000E Nov 1,1923-Very good cond $ 95 PRR CT 1000E 5-1-45,Very Good cond. $35 PRR CT 1000C 5-1-45,Very Good Cond $85 PRR Loco Test Plant Book No.21 for Class E6 $20 PRR Altoona Shops & Yards,Shows shop layout & complete yd $25 PRR Station Plan Book,Copy of 1907 book,71 stations E. of Pgh, a front view, a cross sect. view & shows location, 8 towers, sig bridges-2 thru 8 tracks wide. 90 pgs, 8-1/2 x11 $25 PRR Middle Division Interlocking Plants, Copy of 1914-1917 plans,Banks to Slope, Hollidaysburg Br,Morison Cove Br, 50 pgs,8-1/2 x 14 $25 PRR Map of 1881 MainLine from Alt. to Johnstown,Alleg. Portage RR & inclines, New Portage Br,Blue print copied from original linen. $9 PRR Mine Card & Revenue Waybill,has 3 copies with carbon paper $1 PRR Pocket calenders-1957 & 1960 $ 6 PRR Land Book of 1890 for South West Pennsylvania RailWay $350.00 PRR CT1515 Qualification Card-New,never issued $6 PRR MW200 Machinery Qualification Card- New,never issued $5 PRR MW52(D) Manual of Instructions for MW Equip. NO COVER, dated 1-1-60,very good cond. $21 PRR MW52(D) Unused,Excellent Cond $27 PRR C.E. 78 Manual for construction,unused, excellent cond. $27 PRR Demurrage Card-pad, unused $5 PRR Application for Position-Pad of 100 unused,for bidding on jobs $5 PRR Deposit Slip book-Pad,unused $5 PRR Annual Report-1925 $30 PRR Annual Report-1945 $25 PRR Annual Report-1951 $25 PRR Annual Reports-1953,58 $12 PRR Annual Reports-1952,55,59,60,61,62 $15 PRR 1st Annual Report 1848 (1894 reprint)Front cover loose,pages brittle $45 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.9 4-27-47 $35 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.13 4-24-49 $35 PRR Mid. Div ETT No.3 9-28-52 $30 PRR Mid. Mid. Div No.6 4-25-54 $30 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.16, 4-29-51,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $30 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.4, 10-27-57,VG used cond,wG.O.'s $25 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.5, 4-27-58,VGused cond w/G.O.'s $25 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.8, 10-25-59,VG used cond,not issued $25 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.11,10-29-61,VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Pgh. Div. ETT No.12,10-28-62, VG used cond,w/G.O.'s $20 PRR Cent. Reg.ETT No.4, 10-27-67,Good used cond,has all G.O.'s $20 Thank you Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:00:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Part 2 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List I have the following items for sale. Please contact OFF list with the above subject with questions. Prices DO NOT incl shp. A couple of the items are big and heavy.I do work out of town so responses may not be right away. PRR Elec. Opr. Inst.,1960 rev.,VG cond, unissued $9 PRR Book of Rules,10-28-56,VG cond,unissued $9 PRR Pennsy Electric Years,VG used cond,clean $30 PRR Storage stamps for baggage-full book of 100 - 5 cents, 35 cents, 75 cents $10 ea.bk PRR Leather Conductors wallet (well used)name still visible $5 PRR 25 year Bronze service pin $30 PRR 40 year Silver service pin $30 PRR Adlake Sw Lantern,Good Cond,with font but missing end on wick riser Yel-Yel,Green-wht,lens-targets,heavy $290.00 PRR Lounger Car Smoking Stand,Good used cond,not perfect,as it came out of the lounge car,Heavy $475.00 PRR Flag & Fusee Case $45 PRR Stainless Steel water can,Very Good cond $45 PRR Keystone Whislte Sign,Excellent cond,Repainted( had to before the pigeon dirt corroded it),Heavy $250 PC CT-225-G Haz. Mtl. Reg-plastic cover,good cond $12 PC 1969 Annual Report-Fair cond-water mark $5 PC MW1-New Unused $ 15 PC MW4-Used but excellent cond,field notes on some pages,1section for inspection,2nd section for construction $12 PC MW4 - New cond,no cover $10 PC MW4 - New Cond,unused $15 PC Conductor & Trainman Hat Badges $40 PC Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 PC Stainless Steel water can,VG used cond $45 PC Long neck Journal oil can,VG used cond $40 CR C&S Signal plans,Blue CR logo on cover,NEW,not issued $100 CR Lapel pins for Cond. & Trainman uniform $40 CR Annual Report-1982,83,85,86,87 $12 CR MW-4,NEW,never used,has a couple of small rub marks across logo but other wise excellent. $30 CR Safety Committee sewn patch,blue background,white logo and letters $10 CR First Aid Kit,Opened,one or two packets used,VG cond,a must for train room $35 Pullman Brass Car Door handles-From Heavyweight PRR Sleepers,old former camp cars,some dinges and dents mostly to door knob,latch moves,heavy $35 Great Northern Atlas N scale FA1 (2 units)-older stock,not run,tested only $55pr Atlas SD7,w/DB, undec,new ,never run,cracked plastic box $45 Atlas SD9,NKP,no DB,new ,never run,w/plastic box $45 EL ETT #4 2-24-74 $15 1905 Handbook of Railroad Securities, fair cond,spine taped outside but solid inside,back cover broken but is taped,old leather like cover w/gold lettering on front. Stocks,Bonds,Income for various RR's, $25 Thank you. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:51:37 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] GP9 Question Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com While reading the Withers book on Early EMD Road Switchers, noticed comment that the last GP9s ordered (order 5570 with 48" cooling fans)didn't come with Trainphone antenna. Also had noticed previously that none of the GP9s in pictures had Trainphone antenna. Were there any exceptions? Thanks Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:55:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Items for Sale Part 2 CORRECTION X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, The PC Conductors and Trainman hat badges are $40 ea. Missed that in the checking process.Sorry for any confusion. PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] GP9 Question Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 07:36:21 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Actually the last order for PRR GP-9s came in two distinct groups with = about a year or so delay between them, as I recall from memory. I = believe the order was for something like 100 units. (Actually there = were 250 units including SD-9s, RSD-15s, and RS-11s). When the first = 50 GP-9s were built (in late 1957 without trainphone equipment) there = was a severe downturn in traffic. Several things happened = simultaneously. A- The last steam was abruptly killed on the Pennsy. = B- The 50 Geeps (7180-7229) were delivered directly to the N&W on lease = since they were not needed on the PRR, and C- THe N&W pretty much = dieselized their whole railroad, using leased Pennsy Geeps. =20 Then in the fall of 1959, business picked up and the following chain of = events occurred. The N&W went back to steam (at least a few), the = leased PRR Geeps came home at last, and the final 40 GP-9s (7230-7269) = and 10 GP-9Bs (7230B-7239B) were delivered directly to the PRR at Enola. =20 What happened in between the two groups of 50 units was a major design = change in the air-brake system. The last group became the first units = on the PRR to have the then new 26c brake equipment, replacing the old = 24RL system. 26 brake equipment remains standard on all railroads to = this day. Trainphone equipment was not installed because of the = impending conversion of the system to radios, the exact type and style = of which would remain under debate until about 1964. =20 There has been some debate over the years as to whether these units were = technically GP-18s, but I believe the PRR units had 567C engines = (standard to all PRR GP-9s) and the GP-18s had 567D engines and none = were bought by the Pennsy. =20 Hope this helps Bill Volkmer ________________________________ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com on behalf of bearcreekwest@netscape.net Sent: Wed 9/1/2004 8:51 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] GP9 Question While reading the Withers book on Early EMD Road Switchers, noticed = comment that the last GP9s ordered (order 5570 with 48" cooling = fans)didn't come with Trainphone antenna. Also had noticed previously = that none of the GP9s in pictures had Trainphone antenna. Were there = any exceptions? Thanks Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at = http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Whalthers coaches Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:02:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Are either the 48 seat or the 52 seat coaches prototypical for the PRR? If so in what service were they used? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Whalthers coaches Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:02:04 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Are either the 48 seat or the 52 seat coaches prototypical for the PRR? If so in what service were they used? Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:00:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Tower Sheets Still Needed From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <87D6B61A-FD01-11D8-856D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Semi-annual appeal... I am still looking for a tower sheet from 1954 from a tower west of Harrisburg, but east of Altoona. For the 40+ trains I am attempting to depict as accurately as possible, the tower sheets would provide the loco numbers. While I am not a stickler for the exact numbers, it would tell me the class of motive power, which is what I am really after. BANKS would be the ideal tower, though VIEW and west would provide good info. ROCKVILLE or HARRIS would provide much of the data as well. If you have such a sheet, or a Dispatcher's sheet, please contact me off-list. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:59:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Passenger Roster Update From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've posted another batch of data to the searchable roster of passenger equipment as of 1954. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ All of the known sleeper assignments are now included, as are many of the diner assignments. I'm still working on the diners, then its back to the lightweight sleepers for further data. I also have included references to published photos. So far I have referenced about 40 of my 60 or so books, though the books that will yield the most photos are yet to be indexed. Still, it's a start. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] fishbelly hoppers (reply) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:00:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, A tip of the hat to those who responded to my question concerning that Stewart hopper. Looks like I'll be going the route of the Western Maryland for interchange purposes. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 19:13:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1966 train sheets, Crestline-Ft. Wayne From: Frederick Ripley Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] 1966 train sheets, Crestline-Ft. Wayne Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:39:45 -0400 To: Frederick Ripley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 2, 2004, at 8:13 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Jerry's request for 1954 tower sheets reminded me that I would love > to see some from 1966 (or 1967), anywhere between Crestline, OH, and > Adams, > IN (could be Colsan, Upper Sandusky, Forest, Dunkirk, etc.). I know > this > is probably a long shot, but no harm in asking. I'd of course be > happy to > pay for any copy costs, or purchase copies, or trade xeroxes from my > collection. Please contact me off list. Fred: I forget which tower it was, but Ted Andrews gave a presentation at Cincinnati based on his possession of tower sheets for an entire year for one location. It was somewhere on Lines West. Maybe he'll chime in here... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 07:33:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1966 train sheets, Crestline-Ft. Wayne From: Frederick Ripley From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: [PRR] Summer of '82 Model Railroading magazine Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:02:31 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, Does any one have a copy of the summer of '82 Model Railroading magazine?? There is an article on the PS&N in it I need to copy. Please let me know. Thanks. Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:35:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com With the coaches, sleepers, and baggage cars now coming out in plastic RTR , is there any chance we will see some Pennsy diners or observations. Are the any out there now, besides the Rivarossi tail end car. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:46:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 11:35 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > With the coaches, sleepers, and baggage cars now coming out in plastic > RTR , is there any chance we will see some Pennsy diners or > observations. Are the any out there now, besides the Rivarossi tail > end car. Just an opinion... The P85b coaches often ran several to a train... this translates into a bigger market. The B60b baggage cars often ran several to a train, and sometimes interchanged to other roads... again, this translates into a bigger market. The Pennsy diners were unique to the Pennsy, and only ran one per train... a comparatively limited market. I believe at some point someone will probably do a PRR diner, but I doubt there will be variety. Most likely candidate would be a D78d, with a secondary nod to a D85c/D85d twin unit. If a good modular heavyweight core kit would come along, it would really open the door for laser cut side manufacturers to address the many varieties of D70's and D78's that were out there. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:04:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:11:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From a highly reliable source I have heard that there > is an excellent chance we will be seeing some > additional PRR cars of this type in the near > future...but more than that I cannot comment on at > this time. There is a mid-train lounge in the works. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:35:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that > coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk , ealauterbach@earthlink.net From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:42:13 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 3, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Jerry Britton opines: > On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 11:35 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net > wrote: > >> With the coaches, sleepers, and baggage cars now coming out in >> plastic RTR , is there any chance we will see some Pennsy diners or >> observations. Are the any out there now, besides the Rivarossi tail >> end car. > > Just an opinion... > > The P85b coaches often ran several to a train... this translates into > a bigger market. > > The B60b baggage cars often ran several to a train, and sometimes > interchanged to other roads... again, this translates into a bigger > market. Make that "frequently interchanged" and think of the DURATION of era of those cars. > The Pennsy diners were unique to the Pennsy, and only ran one per > train... a comparatively limited market. As the ad says, "Not exactly" on either count . IIRC, diners assigned to long distance trainsets such as the Southwind did make the entire trip and are therefore of interest to a limited number of modelers of other railroads. In addition, some trains might have more than one diner, for a variety of reasons. One example is the consist of the Champion departing Richmond November 18, 1944 which had 2 ACL dining cars, the Albany (a Budd LW) and the Charleston (a HW) working the consist. In this case, the train represents the combined Florida Special and the Champion, with the LW diner to serve the coaches and the HW to serve the Pullmans. > I believe at some point someone will probably do a PRR diner, but I > doubt there will be variety. Most likely candidate would be a D78d, > with a secondary nod to a D85c/D85d twin unit. Although Eric asked for RTR diners, there are (or were) car sides for a modernized D78. NKP Car Co. (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) sold: Modernized Diner- Low Arch Roof P78-D,F $20.00 Modernized Diner- Clerestory Roof P78-D,DD $20.00. See http://www.nkpcarco.com/prr_diner_c_roof_display.htm for a photo of the sides. Both these appear to be discontinued (I believe that this was mentioned on this list about 6 months ago, to BUY NOW!). A call or email to NKP might find one available... One diner not mentioned is the Botchman, which is a D78C or D78R... Of course there were only three D78Cs, they were all assigned to the Broadway Limited, and the car is only good until they were ACed some time in the 1930s. If you use the Botchman as a D78R, you'll need to add PRR style Ice bunkers, which may be the single biggest missing "link" for the PRR passenger car modeler (ECW makes a part that is supposedly a PRR ice bunker, but it isn't very close). I'm sure we'll talk about this more on the next PRRPro Project, which is the P70 series. Surely you've noticed that Walthers has started to fill out trainsets, and that Broadway Limited is offering complete trains as well? "Patience Grasshopper"! (no, I do not have any information that Walthers or BLI will be doing a PRR diner, but it seems logical) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:54:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:42 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: >> The Pennsy diners were unique to the Pennsy, and only ran one per >> train... a comparatively limited market. > > As the ad says, "Not exactly" on either count . IIRC, diners > assigned to long distance trainsets such as the Southwind did make the > entire trip and are therefore of interest to a limited number of > modelers of other railroads. In addition, some trains might have more > than one diner, for a variety of reasons. One example is the consist > of the Champion departing Richmond November 18, 1944 which had 2 ACL > dining cars, the Albany (a Budd LW) and the Charleston (a HW) working > the consist. In this case, the train represents the combined Florida > Special and the Champion, with the LW diner to serve the coaches and > the HW to serve the Pullmans. Excellent case, Bruce, I had overlooked the "interchange" of the Florida trains! > >> I believe at some point someone will probably do a PRR diner, but I >> doubt there will be variety. Most likely candidate would be a D78d, >> with a secondary nod to a D85c/D85d twin unit. > > Although Eric asked for RTR diners, there are (or were) car sides There are a variety of diner sides available from Laser Horizons as well... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_laser.html > > One diner not mentioned is the Botchman, which is a D78C or D78R... Of > course there were only three D78Cs, they were all assigned to the > Broadway Limited, and the car is only good until they were ACed some > time in the 1930s. D78C #'s 4416, 4417, 4418 5/26/32 Frigidaire ice a/c system installed. Between April and June of 1938, these cars were painted in the Leowy two-tone "Fleet of Modernism" scheme and assigned to trains 48 and 49, the Broadway Limited. Above info available from searchable passenger roster on Keystone Crossings at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] BLI K4s tender question Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] BLI K4s tender question From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Morning Sun Book Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:30:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [141.152.231.157] at Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:55 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone on the list reviewed "Trackside Around Sayre-Towanda-Waverly" by Morning Sun Books? Supposedly there is a section on the Elmira Branch in it. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Morning Sun Book Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 14:30:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [141.152.231.157] at Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:33:55 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Has anyone on the list reviewed "Trackside Around Sayre-Towanda-Waverly" by Morning Sun Books? Supposedly there is a section on the Elmira Branch in it. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:31:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Well, since it doesn't look like there is a plastic Pennsy streamline diner on the near horizon, I was looking at some of the brass cars on Ebay. I was looking on eBay and come upon this brass diner: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=5916401242&rd=1 Is it accurate for the Pennsy? How good of a model is it? And if it is accurate, what era is it accurate for? Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Godby" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] E8 Photos from 8/2/04 Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:51:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I see I got the link wrong, it is; http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D42152 Sorry about that. Bill Godby PRRT&HS 7162 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bill Godby" To: "PRR-talk" ; "PRR Fax" ; = "PennsyWest" Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 11:45 AM Subject: [PennsyWest] E8 Photos from 8/2/04 > If this works, there should be a link that will take you to a few = photos I took of the E8`s as they passed through Crestline and = Mansfield, if anyone cares to look at them. >=20 > http://www.rrpictures.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3D42152 >=20 > Bill Godby PRRT&HS 7162 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor = --------------------~-->=20 > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > = --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 >=20 > =20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ >=20 > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >=20 > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > =20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 17:31:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sorry, Eric,Pennsy had nothing even close. I believe it is either a GN or NP prototype, forget which. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Well, since it doesn't look like there is a plastic Pennsy streamline diner on the near horizon, I was looking at some of the brass cars on Ebay. I was looking on eBay and come upon this brass diner: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=5916401242&rd=1 > > Is it accurate for the Pennsy? How good of a model is it? And if it is accurate, what era is it accurate for? > Thanks, > Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 14:40:22 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that=20 interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in=20 the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that=20 then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Logging Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:07:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I can give you one obscure one that often gets missed: The PRR interchanged with the B&S and Potato Creek, a standard gage logging railroad at Keating Summit. I believe the PC went under around 1912 or 1926. Thomas T. Taber's logging book on that area and the book on the B&S tell all with pictures. The B&S book has a sketch of the track arrangement, the logging book has pictures of the mill and the PC yard (elsewhere) with Shays, etc. The PC was standard gage & ran Shays. Actually the B&S interchanged with the PRR at the summit (KS tower once) at a wye, can still see the right of way for the wye. The PC interchanged with the B&S just beyond the wye in a small 3 or so track yard. The PC had a sawmill a short distance north of Keating Summit. A few miles north of the summit are two huge concrete monoliths on the west side of the highway, on either side of the Pennsy (now NS). They would stand up to a nuclear blast and deflect Abrams tanks! They were the supports for the PC bridge (beautiful, long timber trestle that came across the valley just east of the PRR. Pennsy was taking no chances of a Shay falling on the Buffalo Day Express! Pennsy had sidings and an interchange track with the B&S at the summit, so presumably picked up cars from both B&S & Potato Creek. Hope that helps Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:40 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging Listers, Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] BLI PRR J1 discovery Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:26:23 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've recently diagnosed and repaired a problem I was having with the = operation of one of my HO scale Broadway Limited Imports PRR J1 models = and thought that perhaps some of you may benefit from my experience. I = was very impressed with how smoothly my model ran right out of the box = and after a reasonable break in period I decided to install the optional = traction tire-equipped driver to increase the model's pulling power. The = installation went smoothly (or so I thought) and I was pleased with the = additional traction available. However, soon after beginning operation = on a 65-car hopper train, I noticed the locomotive had developed a = slight hop with each revolution. It was quite noticeable and also seemed = to introduce a slight bind in the mechanism which would cause the model = to hesitate and stall at the lower speed steps. I had read on one of the = lists about the front pair of drivers contacting the cylinders and had = already noted the same problem on mine and clearanced this area prior to = installing the traction tire. Careful examination of the traction tire = drivers eliminated an out-of-round condition so I decided to switch back = to the original smooth driver to see if the hitch disappeared. Much to = my dismay, the locomotive continued to demonstrate the same hop and = bind. I decided to pull the driver retainer plate off another time and = carefully inspect the drive gear on the center axle. Perhaps a piece of = debris was lodged in one of the teeth. This inspection also showed = nothing. If you're still with me, this is where I found the problem. Each driver axle has a pair of brass or bronze journals similar to = those found in brass imports. They all register in a slot provided in = the locomotive's frame. Unlike brass imports, the journal is not an "H" = section, but rather more of a "T" section and relies on a bushing on the = axle to keep it pushed outboard and properly located in the frame slot. = I noticed that the journal on the engineer's side of the center, = gear-equipped axle was not properly registered. The journal had slid = towards the center gear which allowed the driver axle to cock slightly, = thus creating the hitch and bind with each revolution. All journals = except for this one have a bushing that keeps them slid outboard on = their respective axles and properly registered. I did not see any = provision for retaining the misaligned journal. I was just about to pull = the driver from its axle to install a bushing when I noticed a small = plastic ridge on the underside of the retainer plate. Sure enough, this = ridge was there to retain its corresponding journal in the frame slots. = This time I carefully re-assembled the model taking care to keep the = journal properly registered until the retainer plate was fully secured. = This did it! The model now runs flawlessly without any trace of a hitch = or bind. Hopefully, one of you will benefit from this story. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] BLI PRR J1 discovery Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:26:23 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've recently diagnosed and repaired a problem I was having with the = operation of one of my HO scale Broadway Limited Imports PRR J1 models = and thought that perhaps some of you may benefit from my experience. I = was very impressed with how smoothly my model ran right out of the box = and after a reasonable break in period I decided to install the optional = traction tire-equipped driver to increase the model's pulling power. The = installation went smoothly (or so I thought) and I was pleased with the = additional traction available. However, soon after beginning operation = on a 65-car hopper train, I noticed the locomotive had developed a = slight hop with each revolution. It was quite noticeable and also seemed = to introduce a slight bind in the mechanism which would cause the model = to hesitate and stall at the lower speed steps. I had read on one of the = lists about the front pair of drivers contacting the cylinders and had = already noted the same problem on mine and clearanced this area prior to = installing the traction tire. Careful examination of the traction tire = drivers eliminated an out-of-round condition so I decided to switch back = to the original smooth driver to see if the hitch disappeared. Much to = my dismay, the locomotive continued to demonstrate the same hop and = bind. I decided to pull the driver retainer plate off another time and = carefully inspect the drive gear on the center axle. Perhaps a piece of = debris was lodged in one of the teeth. This inspection also showed = nothing. If you're still with me, this is where I found the problem. Each driver axle has a pair of brass or bronze journals similar to = those found in brass imports. They all register in a slot provided in = the locomotive's frame. Unlike brass imports, the journal is not an "H" = section, but rather more of a "T" section and relies on a bushing on the = axle to keep it pushed outboard and properly located in the frame slot. = I noticed that the journal on the engineer's side of the center, = gear-equipped axle was not properly registered. The journal had slid = towards the center gear which allowed the driver axle to cock slightly, = thus creating the hitch and bind with each revolution. All journals = except for this one have a bushing that keeps them slid outboard on = their respective axles and properly registered. I did not see any = provision for retaining the misaligned journal. I was just about to pull = the driver from its axle to install a bushing when I noticed a small = plastic ridge on the underside of the retainer plate. Sure enough, this = ridge was there to retain its corresponding journal in the frame slots. = This time I carefully re-assembled the model taking care to keep the = journal properly registered until the retainer plate was fully secured. = This did it! The model now runs flawlessly without any trace of a hitch = or bind. Hopefully, one of you will benefit from this story. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Logging Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:37:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm not sure of the details of the railroad, but Set Up Running states that the Susquehanna & New York joined up with the PRR at Ralston PA. S&NY may have carried logs or lumber. Perhaps someone else on the list can clarify this. Roy Breon Pittsford NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:40 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging Listers, Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Logging > From: "John Frantz" > Subject: [PRR] PRR and Logging From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:33:39 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I = have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one = and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units = with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and = visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the = cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and = pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look = like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 00:33:39 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I = have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one = and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units = with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and = visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the = cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and = pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look = like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:48:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSR0euXF14vCkA3R0m4ws6UzMrNGgDDxQWQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hallelujah! I don't know of any mid train lounges available in HO! Six bedroom lounges were very common on many roads. Of course the PRR had two varieties on FALLS cars, prewar and postwar. Walthers could easily do a FALLS car and paint for 69 roads ;-) regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:11 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From a highly reliable source I have heard that there is an excellent > chance we will be seeing some additional PRR cars of this type in the > near future...but more than that I cannot comment on at this time. There is a mid-train lounge in the works. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:52:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <4A529B3A-FDC7-11D8-8E08-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSR1G66MJrld3HVQOqnz3NT8XoBVgDDQehQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:14:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Program on 9/12 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <2A2F0AB8-00D8-11D9-983A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This Sunday is the regularly scheduled quarterly meeting of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The meeting is at 1:30 p.m. and anyone can attend. Otterbein United Methodist Church, 301 W. Philadelphia St., York, Pa. This meeting has a special program and is a joint event with the Susquehanna Division of the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). The speaker will be John Moyer, the fireman who rode the GG1 into the basement of Washington Union Station when "The Federal" lost its brakes and crashed in 1953. John regularly worked on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor as well as on the Northern Central Branch between Baltimore and Harrisburg. John will speak of the crash and other experiences, as well as answer questions. One account of the wreck is at http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.html . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:17:58 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob Zoeller wrote: "Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their [ALCo PBs]. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered." Athearn does indeed offer powered PBs. The frame and mechanism is the same for both the A and B units. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] passenger consists Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:45:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com .....and speaking of passenger trains. walthers could easily do a ' = 48 broadway in conjunction with rivarossi. all it would take is an = upgrade of the=20 appropriate cars they have now; a la their U.P. eight car set. that = and three new cars, a mid train lounge, and the two pieces of a twin = unit diner. then sell it piecemeal, or as a set as they've done with the super = chief. tell me that wouldn't sell !!! we've already got = appropriate power from BLI. then again, a full congo consist in plastic would be mighty fine = too.........for those of us who didn't get the challenger offering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:40:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR and Logging From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:15:35 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: EX-Pennsy Engine Thread-Index: AcSVKDRLqhIaQDPHT325BQoaxCwLnQ== From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2004 22:15:35.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[32EEFC90:01C49528] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy = consolidation engine. But what is the railroad? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender. Marvin L. Cadwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Marvin, With the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh= , Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess. The locomotive = has definitely been rebuilt and upgraded from the original. Note the cylinde= rs, drivers, and the style of the cab. Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Cadwell, Marvin L=0D Date: 09/07/04 18:25:06=0D To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine=0D =0D Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy consolidation engine. But what is the railroad?=0D =0D http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg=0D =0D Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender.=0D =0D Marvin L. Cadwell=0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:22:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200409071350.i87DoZD15590@smtp-bedford.mitre.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would think that Walthers has the Broadway Limited of 1938 in mind rather than the Budd-built Congressional. A larger portion of their existing model inventory would be appropriate for a Broadway in the FOM paint scheme. And the majority of the cars needed for a '38 Broadway would translate well into other road names (like the 1938-version of the 20th Century perhaps). Besides that, it would be a natural eastern counterpart to the Santa Fe Super Chief, even though the two resulting Walthers-assembled trains would be of different eras. Chris Baker -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:30:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with no modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:40:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:04:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <413E5BA8.000001.03344@NIKKI> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jim Lash wrote: "...with the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh, Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess." I have to strongly caution against using any freight car capable of interchange as a basis in determining what road a picture was taken. Bruce Chubb's theories of freight car distribution appear logical, but they do not hold up when compared with actual car distribution data. While not as freely interchanged as boxcars during the steam-to-diesel transition, hopper cars did wander within a regional basis. They weren't as captive as many modelers believe. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:25:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken, That's a US Army World War II 0-6-0. The Raritan River and the Virginia Blue Ridge used them, but that's neither's logo AFAIK. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Hough " To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine > Heres the next photo of that series: > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s50asw.jpg > Different engine, same logo? > Ken > > > > Guys, > The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably > x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth > Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with > no > modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Ken Hough Photographic Repair > Specializing in Deardorff repair and refinishing > Shutter repair and Lens recementing > Custom machine work > www.deardorffcameras.0catch.com > 219-462-0281 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 08:14:47 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This is one of the ex-Delmarva (IIRC) PRR consolidations that went to the Norfolk and Portsmouth Beltline. The odd looking coal bunker and stack flap are typical of N&PBL engines and they had a diamond shaped logo. (It's better seen on the second photo posted by Gary M.) The sand tower suggests Portlock yard. The N&PBL was founded by AJ Cassatt as the next project after the NYP&N as a jointly owned line by all the tidewater railroads including the NYP&N, C&O, N&W, Southern, Virginia, SAL, ACL and old Norfolk Southern. Its now a NEW NS operation and is still in operation though the players have changed. I can find more details later today if anyone wants them...references at home. Jim McDaniel, happy to see something near Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:49:17 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSVQlY2hu2gkbOPSBG14QfjtxI9swAZ3y0w Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Unfortunately, I think you are right. The 10-5 and the 4-4-2 (unlike the Super Chief, this time it's the right one!) are already available. From the Rivarossi line they get the RPO and even the 12-5. The B'way never ran them, but painted the FOM (with colors to match the Walthers cars) it fits in many other trains. This means they still need a D78 rebuild, a HARBOR lounge, a VIEW obs, and even an 11 br COUNTY car. The latter is also fair game for several roads. I say "unfortunately" because I model the early 50s, and most (but not all) of these cars are gone or repainted by then. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Baker [mailto:chrisandbelton@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:23 PM To: Andy Miller; 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car I would think that Walthers has the Broadway Limited of 1938 in mind rather than the Budd-built Congressional. A larger portion of their existing model inventory would be appropriate for a Broadway in the FOM paint scheme. And the majority of the cars needed for a '38 Broadway would translate well into other road names (like the 1938-version of the 20th Century perhaps). Besides that, it would be a natural eastern counterpart to the Santa Fe Super Chief, even though the two resulting Walthers-assembled trains would be of different eras. Chris Baker -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Ex-Pennsy Engine From: John Sheets Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:07:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Ex-Pennsy Engine From: John Sheets Cc: prrths_modeling_committee@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited K4s Tender Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:28:12 -0500 To: "PRR-Talk TALK''" , PRR@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Good morning folks, A question was raised on PRR-Talk a few days ago regarding the tender to be sold with the Broadway Limited K4s. Based on information I received from Charlie Vlk of BLI, this tender will be a class 110P75A (Type 2) and thus it is also a close match for the 110P75 (Type 2) which was used behind the M1. I gleaned the data below from The Keystone, Vol 21, Number 1 (spring 1988). This issue actually has two fantastic tender articles, one on 13,000 gallon tenders, and the second, on Kiesel Tenders, both by Roger L. Keyser. The class 110P75 (Type 1) had seven side braces (and hence rows of rivets) and a long coal space. About 200 of these were ordered for use with the M1 in 1926. However, in May 1926 the specs were revised to include eight tank side braces (110P75 (Type 2)). It is not clear how many of the Type 1 tenders were built, but Keyser speculates that they "exceeded 20 units" meaning that most were probably Type 2 tenders. Except for the number of side braces, the tenders were identical. The class 110P75A (Type 2) was a modification of class 110P75 (Types 1 and 2). Keyser notes little change between the two except that the 110P75 tenders with 7 side braces were modified to have 8. The 110P75A was first mentioned in 1927, but there appear to have been none so modified until 1936. Because of the date, it is not clear if any 110P75 tenders were used behind K4s before they were reclassified as 110P75A. We have long sought evidence of 110P75 tenders on the M1 into the 1940s, however the existence of this pairing has not been (well) documented, thus it seems likely that most 110P75 tenders were converted to 110P75A tenders and paired with K4s prior to WWII as the long tenders were built for the M1s. The class 110P75A (Type 1) was converted from the short coal space 110P70 tenders already assigned to K4s. These tenders have 8 side braces, a long coal space and a crease in the side of the coal space where the slope sheet used to be, which differentiates them from the 110P75 (Type 2). BTW, the designations "Type 1" and "Type 2" are akin to railfan "phases" and are not official PRR nomenclature. They do not appear anywhere in the Form 109 Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:02:10 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:10:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/8/2004 5:20:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drm6@psu.edu writes: John and the group, Pulpwood cars at Erie is easy - Hammermill Paper. Pulpwood cars would also be sent to Lock Haven and Ridgeway for the New York and Pennsylvania (Nypen) Pulp and Paper plants there during the PRR era. I would also like to know where the pulpwood would be coming from West Virginia Pulp and Paper had a sizeable plant in Tyrone and was served by the PRR Bald Eagle Branch. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:00:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich, I think WVP&P made their pulp themselves. I recall Tyrone smelling really foul when passing through there in the 1960's & 70's.Under early Conrail(1979,80,81) there were loads of logs at the east end of the Tyrone Park yd, at the "PARK" end but I think they also made plywood and or particle board at Tyrone. Drew,do you have any idea when they stopped making pulp at Tyrone and the smell started to go away? Can't recall some of these things anymore. Same thing with the plant at Roaring Spring. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:39:06 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Here's a photo of PRR gons loaded with pulpwood at Hammermill: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/hammer.jpg I always seem to be wrong when I trust my memory, but I think I was told that pulpwood came from Canada by ship to Hammermill's dock in the PRR's lake yards, and was taken by PRR to the mill. The Hammermill dock is shown in this 1936 track chart: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/ely_w2.gif I'm sure that in earlier times pulpwood came up the P&E as well. I can check Rosenberg's P&E history for details --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drew McGhee" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging > John and the group, > > Pulpwood cars at Erie is easy - Hammermill Paper. Pulpwood cars would also > be sent to Lock Haven and Ridgeway for the New York and Pennsylvania > (Nypen) Pulp and Paper plants there during the PRR era. > > I would also like to know where the pulpwood would be coming from. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > At 05:40 PM 9/7/2004, John Sheets wrote: > >John > > > >On one of Clarence Weavers videos c1957, there were a lot of pulpwood loaded > >PRR gons in the yard at Erie, Pa, but not sure where they came from/went to. > > > >John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] Coal Hoppers Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:31:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ctinetworks-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ctinetworks-VirusCheck: Found to be clean X-ctinetworks-SpamCheck: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Question, In Coal Hoppers, What road names could one expect to find on the PRR middle division in 1942? Thanks, George New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steve pracey" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/04 Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:01:13 +1000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, I am modelling pennsy n scale. I am looking at what liveries were on rsd type Alco`s. I would also like to know if Alco had rsd type locomotives as demonstrators and if so what liveries. Kind regards, Stephen Campbelltown,Sydney,Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:10 PM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/08/04 PRR-Talk Digest - Wednesday, September 8, 2004 Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit by "Bob Zoeller" RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car by "Andy Miller" RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car by "Andy Miller" PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Program on 9/12 by "Jerry Britton" Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit by passenger consists by Re: PRR and Logging by "John Sheets" EX-Pennsy Engine by "Cadwell, Marvin L" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "sjlash" RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car by "Christopher Baker" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Gary Mittner" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Ken Hough" RE: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Benjamin Hom" Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine by "Gregg Mahlkov" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit From: "Bob Zoeller" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:14:03 -0500 You didn't say what era , but you could also run A-A-A or use a powered Alco PB as the prototype did. Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their Bs. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Rea" To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:48:33 -0400 Hallelujah! I don't know of any mid train lounges available in HO! Six bedroom lounges were very common on many roads. Of course the PRR had two varieties on FALLS cars, prewar and postwar. Walthers could easily do a FALLS car and paint for 69 roads ;-) regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:11 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From a highly reliable source I have heard that there is an excellent > chance we will be seeing some additional PRR cars of this type in the > near future...but more than that I cannot comment on at this time. There is a mid-train lounge in the works. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:52:29 -0400 Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Program on 9/12 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:14:00 -0400 This Sunday is the regularly scheduled quarterly meeting of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. The meeting is at 1:30 p.m. and anyone can attend. Otterbein United Methodist Church, 301 W. Philadelphia St., York, Pa. This meeting has a special program and is a joint event with the Susquehanna Division of the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). The speaker will be John Moyer, the fireman who rode the GG1 into the basement of Washington Union Station when "The Federal" lost its brakes and crashed in 1953. John regularly worked on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor as well as on the Northern Central Branch between Baltimore and Harrisburg. John will speak of the crash and other experiences, as well as answer questions. One account of the wreck is at http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.html . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit From: Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 14:17:58 +0000 Bob Zoeller wrote: "Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their [ALCo PBs]. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered." Athearn does indeed offer powered PBs. The frame and mechanism is the same for both the A and B units. Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: passenger consists From: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:45:48 -0400 .....and speaking of passenger trains. walthers could easily do a ' 48 broadway in conjunction with rivarossi. all it would take is an upgrade of the appropriate cars they have now; a la their U.P. eight car set. that and three new cars, a mid train lounge, and the two pieces of a twin unit diner. then sell it piecemeal, or as a set as they've done with the super chief. tell me that wouldn't sell !!! we've already got appropriate power from BLI. then again, a full congo consist in plastic would be mighty fine too.........for those of us who didn't get the challenger offering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: PRR and Logging From: "John Sheets" Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:40:57 -0500 John > Can anyone tell me places and names of railroads that > interchanged as a logging railroad with the PRR? Even in > the capacity that the railroad had a sawmill on site that > then shipped out cut lumber on the PRR. On one of Clarence Weavers videos c1957, there were a lot of pulpwood loaded PRR gons in the yard at Erie, Pa, but not sure where they came from/went to. John ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:15:35 -0500 Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy consolidation engine. But what is the railroad? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender. Marvin L. Cadwell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "sjlash" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Marvin, With the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh, Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess. The locomotive has definitely been rebuilt and upgraded from the original. Note the cylinders, drivers, and the style of the cab. Jim -------Original Message------- From: Cadwell, Marvin L Date: 09/07/04 18:25:06 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine Posted on the Fallen Flags website is a picture of an ex-Pennsy consolidation engine. But what is the railroad? http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s25asw.jpg Note the quasi-diamond shaped logo on the tender. Marvin L. Cadwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car From: "Christopher Baker" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:22:41 -0400 I would think that Walthers has the Broadway Limited of 1938 in mind rather than the Budd-built Congressional. A larger portion of their existing model inventory would be appropriate for a Broadway in the FOM paint scheme. And the majority of the cars needed for a '38 Broadway would translate well into other road names (like the 1938-version of the 20th Century perhaps). Besides that, it would be a natural eastern counterpart to the Santa Fe Super Chief, even though the two resulting Walthers-assembled trains would be of different eras. Chris Baker -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:52 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; 'Bill Daniels' Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car Without any foreknowledge, I am pining my hopes on Walthers following the Super Chief with a Congo! They already do the parlor. They could use a corridor high density coach in their mix. All their current coaches are 50 seat (+/-). No one has ever done a plastic 2-unit diner or a respectable square end fluted obs. And there are a "few" SPFs out in the market place. The Congo has real possibilities for them. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 12:36 PM To: Bill Daniels Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic RTR Pennsy Diner and tailend car On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 12:23 PM, Bill Daniels wrote: > From what I've heard there is much more than that coming. I was addressing only single cars from current sources, those being Walthers, Branchline, and InterMountain. I imaging BLI will probably do a complete PRR train, though I am led to believe it will not be a PRR train that follows their current "Zephyr" offering. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Gary Mittner" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:30:42 -0400 Guys, The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with no modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Ken Hough" Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 20:40:16 -0500 Heres the next photo of that series: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s50asw.jpg Different engine, same logo? Ken Guys, The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with no modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Ken Hough Photographic Repair Specializing in Deardorff repair and refinishing Shutter repair and Lens recementing Custom machine work www.deardorffcameras.0catch.com 219-462-0281 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Benjamin Hom" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:04:27 -0400 Jim Lash wrote: "...with the C&O hopper behind the tender, I would guess the Lehigh, Reading, or maybe the Erie. These are strictly a guess." I have to strongly caution against using any freight car capable of interchange as a basis in determining what road a picture was taken. Bruce Chubb's theories of freight car distribution appear logical, but they do not hold up when compared with actual car distribution data. While not as freely interchanged as boxcars during the steam-to-diesel transition, hopper cars did wander within a regional basis. They weren't as captive as many modelers believe. Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:25:48 -0400 Ken, That's a US Army World War II 0-6-0. The Raritan River and the Virginia Blue Ridge used them, but that's neither's logo AFAIK. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Hough " To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine > Heres the next photo of that series: > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/misc-i/ibl-s50asw.jpg > Different engine, same logo? > Ken > > > > Guys, > The loco appears to be x-PRR H9s, probably > x PRR1298. The photo depicts operation on the Norfolk & Portsmouth > Belt Line that operated in Virginia. Looks like a standard H9s with > no > modifications, except for the front end ugly treatment. ......Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Ken Hough Photographic Repair > Specializing in Deardorff repair and refinishing > Shutter repair and Lens recementing > Custom machine work > www.deardorffcameras.0catch.com > 219-462-0281 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:25:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/8/2004 8:00:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PKMac101 writes: I think WVP&P made their pulp themselves. I recall Tyrone smelling really foul when passing through there in the 1960's & 70's.Under early Conrail(1979,80,81) there were loads of logs at the east end of the Tyrone Park yd, at the "PARK" end but I think they also made plywood and or particle board at Tyrone. Drew,do you have any idea when they stopped making pulp at Tyrone and the smell started to go away? Can't recall some of these things anymore. Same thing with the plant at Roaring Spring. Pat McKinney Pat, they were still making pulp at least until May 1972. I passed that plant far too many times going between Penn State and Pittsburgh. When my younger brother graduated from PSU in 72 the plant was still spewing out air pollution. IIRC they stopped making the pulp as part of a consent agreement to end the water and air pollution violations at the facility. It was cheaper to move the pulp making to one of the WV plants with modern pollution controls than to retrofit the Tyrone plant. I may have misunderstood the original post. I thought we were talking about pulpwood loads in Erie being delivered to plants. I was id'ing the Tyrone plant as a receipient of pulpwood not paper pulp. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:58:04 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Pulpwood in gondolas, what a cool idea for a load or two! I'm used to seeing logs on trucks and bulkhead flats. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva tree farmer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:58:43 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:03:39 -0500 From: "Bill Volkmer" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I watched them off-load the stuff from the lake boats and stack it up = along the waterfront, so a good guess would be that it came from Canada. Bill Volkmer ________________________________ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com on behalf of Drew McGhee Sent: Wed 9/8/2004 4:02 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging John and the group, Pulpwood cars at Erie is easy - Hammermill Paper. Pulpwood cars would = also be sent to Lock Haven and Ridgeway for the New York and Pennsylvania (Nypen) Pulp and Paper plants there during the PRR era. I would also like to know where the pulpwood would be coming from. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 05:40 PM 9/7/2004, John Sheets wrote: >John > >On one of Clarence Weavers videos c1957, there were a lot of pulpwood = loaded >PRR gons in the yard at Erie, Pa, but not sure where they came = from/went to. > >John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:37:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com And that means it will be a late afternoon train....................... It will never be the same! Write your folks in HBG if you want a day train to be returned. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Sichel" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: [PRR] Amtrak > Just a note to the listers, if you hadn't heard. Amtrak is reducing and > restructuring Pennsylvania service in the coming months as it exits the mail > business. As of March 1, 2005, there will be no through New > York-Pittsburgh-Chicago service, as Amtrak annuls the Three Rivers and > replaces it and the Pennsylvanian with one train daily each direction from > between New York and Pittsburgh which has yet to be named. Amtrak argues > that to get to Chicago via this route, that passengers may transfer to the > Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to > School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:51:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 9, 2004, at 09:37 AM, Bennett Levin wrote: > And that means it will be a late afternoon train....................... > > It will never be the same! > > Write your folks in HBG if you want a day train to be returned. I suggest Amtrak be totally removed from the Philly to Pittsburgh run... Let the Juniata Terminal E8's take over!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:59:45 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Pulpwood Cars at Erie was Re: PRR and Logging From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:09:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] EX-Pennsy Engine X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com But what about that tender bunker or is there something in the background above the tender? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:05:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is always the option of three A units. It was not uncommon for the PRR to run three E8 A units, or a mix of E7 and E8's, together. I rode PRR trains in the sixties from Lancaster, Pa to Chicago with three A's a toting. A Broadway Limited E8 would make an excellent pulling unit to go with your E "Camera" 8A's plus it could be the trailing unit avoiding having the battery wires run through a powered unit. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 23:18:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ditto on the wandering hopper cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I saw and took a slide of a Pennsy two bay hopper sitting empty next to the passenger station in Tacoma, Wa., summer 1973. Have seen Reading two bay hoppers in Los Angeles, Ca., Leadville, Co. and Tucson, Az. These all between 1972 and June 1974. Later sightings of the 100T hoppers from eastern roads out west are even more prevalent. Even have a photo of a Frisco hopper hauling ungraded coal from a mine to the St. Nicholas Breaker deep in the heart of the Penna. anthracite country. Hoppers got around, too. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:51:25 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Apparently the PRR also retained some or all of the PB's in passenger service when the PA's were transferred to freight. The original Pennsy Power shows a PB between two E7's this way. -------------- Original message from RDG2124@aol.com: -------------- > There is always the option of three A units. It was not uncommon for the > PRR to run three E8 A units, or a mix of E7 and E8's, together. I rode PRR > trains in the sixties from Lancaster, Pa to Chicago with three A's a toting. A > Broadway Limited E8 would make an excellent pulling unit to go with your E > "Camera" 8A's plus it could be the trailing unit avoiding having the battery > wires > run through a powered unit. > > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS 7487 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 > CNJ 2003 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:46:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSU9NiY/M7RJe2sT1uI2dlqTRzEyACT3XVA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PCL thread on NYC rider cars has migrated to why the PRR used cabin cars so often instead of coaches on mail & express trains. It occurs to me that one advantage of a cabin car, besides the desk, is the heat available from the stove. It would not be necessary to connect all the steam lines, or even to use a steam equipped loco, on a M&E train when the rider car was a cabin. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:46:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSU9NiY/M7RJe2sT1uI2dlqTRzEyACT3XVA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PCL thread on NYC rider cars has migrated to why the PRR used cabin cars so often instead of coaches on mail & express trains. It occurs to me that one advantage of a cabin car, besides the desk, is the heat available from the stove. It would not be necessary to connect all the steam lines, or even to use a steam equipped loco, on a M&E train when the rider car was a cabin. regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again From: "Ken Hough " Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Cc: "" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:22:59 -0500 To: "'PRR-Talk'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I've added some kits and comments to Andy's list of models > PRR Class Model Mfr Model Type Comments P70 ALCO kit (OOP) - reportedly the basis of the ECW kit > P70 ECW kit note that the 6 wheel truck version is bogus and the 4 wheel trucks offered with these kits are some of the worst ever made. > P70 Bachmann RTR > P70r > P70fr > P70far ECW kit > P70fbr ECW kit > P70gs Laser Horizons sides P70GS NKP Products kit (brass sides + core) > P70k Laser Horizons sides P70KR NKP Products kit (brass sides + core) > PB70 Bachmann RTR PB70D NKP Products kit (brass sides + core) Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Historic Rails Cover Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:28:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I think Al brought this up on this list a few days ago but I just got my Historical Rails catalog and looked at the cover. The Pennsy F7 has white flags, which as was stated didn't exist on the Pennsy in the diesel age. The F7 still has closed pilot doors, but it has had the late 50's grab job on the nose. The nose keystone is white and red. At least the artist used one horn. The F7 looks a little green too. Coming up on the inside is a second generation EMD product. However two steam powered freights are heading upgrade. (Look at the smaller picture on the inside cover) Finally, none of the roofwalks have lateral running boards. Of course the blurb on the print gives it away. "Published as a tribute to the 150th Anniversary of Horseshoe Curve..." Sounds like the artist wanted to make a quick buck and didn't do his research. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:31:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E From: Frederick Ripley From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:18:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just picked up a Bowser hopper kit lettered for Bethlehem Mines. This car is of an older style open top hopper with the clam shell doors (rapid discharge). As lettered, is this an authentic model or an exercise of model manufactures' license? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:18:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just picked up a Bowser hopper kit lettered for Bethlehem Mines. This car is of an older style open top hopper with the clam shell doors (rapid discharge). As lettered, is this an authentic model or an exercise of model manufactures' license? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Traffic density question Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:38:57 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am looking at a 1941 Pittsburgh division traffic density chart from the April 1981 Rails Northeast and it struck me that there are more westbound passenger trains than eastbound over the entire division. It 34w, 31E at Altoona up to 63w, 60e between Pittsburgh and East Liberty. Obviously my conclusion is there are three more westbound long haul trains westbound then eastbound. My conclusion is possibly mail trains. any thoughts? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:22:59 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Claus Schuland asked: Could I get some clarification - are these H21 style hopper cars? Yes. http://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/h21/54108.jpg Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] The Pennsylvania Limited Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:06:48 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone provide me with a consist listing of the "Pennsylvania = Limited" for 1948, 1949, or 1950? =20 Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:58:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1361 updaes MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, In the past there was always someone here posting updates and photos on the 1361 restoration. Havn't heard anything "offical" lately. Isn't the K4s still in a million pieces? Reason I ask is because at our local NRHS Chapter meeting tonight someone mentioned that the 1361 is nearly 98% finished. I myself can not believe this. What happened to the Tender Baffle rebuild, the million holes in the cistren tank, not to mention the rewelds etc on the loco. It has been rumored that the K4s will indeed be ready for the 2005 railfest. My hats off to the rebuilders if it is. Reported also was the lack of NS permission to run the curve excursions and the K4s will be relegated to the Nittney Bald Eagle Branch, similar to this years deal. I am just as big a K4s fan as the next guy but what I heard tonight is I think, well, just wishful thinking on someones part. Please post an OFFICAL update, be it someone from the Horseshoe Curve Chapter or the RRMM. Curious minds need to know. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:06:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) outside chance it was a B-6. It has a slope back tender. I'm putting together my Williamsport presentation for Camp Hill and have a photograph of 1203 which has just rolled off the rails. The locomotive is facing the camera with only a bit of the side showing, and that area is bathed in steam (the incident has just happened!). The photo was taken by a commercial photographer for the newspaper with a large format camera and superb film (b&w). The engine is at a 45 degree angle to the track it was on, leaning over at about 45 degrees. The tender is still attached, front trucks lifted off the ground, tender leaning over at maybe 30 degrees from vertical. Lots of steam coming from the bottom parts of the engine and the generator. It was pulling a St. Louis Car Co. reefer and two tank cars (at least), which is all the picture shows. There is a large storage tank behind the tank cars, from the construction I would say natural gas. Would also love to identify the location. Perhaps some of you have seen it - it's one from the Putsee Vannucci collection. Thanks in advance! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:29:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001501c49903$f3f83c60$08d51842@stny.rr.com> X-SLUIDL: 7C21C7D8-366C40C4-84242060-E334E542 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Howdy Bill: According to William D. Edson in "Keysonte Stema & Electric" number 1203 was an A2 then an A3 and finally an A5s FYI: 1203 built 11/17 at Juniata, construction number 3359, scraped 3/49 >From the 1944 MP 229 for the Central Penna Division: http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/page13.jpg Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone "If we can not have what we like, we must learn to like what we have!" John Paul Jones Beat the Christmas rush - Go to Church now! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 4:06 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) outside chance it was a B-6. It has a slope back tender. I'm putting together my Williamsport presentation for Camp Hill and have a photograph of 1203 which has just rolled off the rails. The locomotive is facing the camera with only a bit of the side showing, and that area is bathed in steam (the incident has just happened!). The photo was taken by a commercial photographer for the newspaper with a large format camera and superb film (b&w). The engine is at a 45 degree angle to the track it was on, leaning over at about 45 degrees. The tender is still attached, front trucks lifted off the ground, tender leaning over at maybe 30 degrees from vertical. Lots of steam coming from the bottom parts of the engine and the generator. It was pulling a St. Louis Car Co. reefer and two tank cars (at least), which is all the picture shows. There is a large storage tank behind the tank cars, from the construction I would say natural gas. Would also love to identify the location. Perhaps some of you have seen it - it's one from the Putsee Vannucci collection. Thanks in advance! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: r.r.farquharson@att.net Subject: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:37:01 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Here is a question with a slightly different slant on what car(s) constituted an MS60. Consist lists often include both B60's and MS60's. A B60 is obviously a PRR car as would any of the B60, R50 or X29 class that the PRR used to fill a spot called for by an MS60. Were other roads' express cars also used as MS60's? There seems to be general consensus that other roads' head end cars were interchanged yet the consist lists only rarely refer to cars accepted from, for example, the NH or B&M, or forwarded to the west coast. I haven't seen any specific reference to the MP/T&P baggage cars on the Middle Division trains discussed a year or more ago. How did they end up on the Middle Division on what seems to be a regular basis? Were head-end cars treated more like their passenger-carrying brethren and kept fairly close to home and interchanged only on specified routes (like the through sleepers) or did they roam more freely? If they roamed freely, there might be a spot for one of the Southern Car & Foundry Harriman baggage cars in a mail train. Perhaps the GN, MILW, ATSF interchanged cars as well. It has been said often that the R50's travelled the entire country and a west coast modelere could justify one. Does the opposite hold true as well? Did western express cars routinely travel east under the radar as MS60's? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks. Bob Farquharson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:53:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Baggage cars would be used when a load had to be kept absolutely dry. Box cars were notorious for leaky doors. When used as such, baggage cars typically ran in freight trains handled on the rear ahead of the caboose. One other use I recall was for transporting live fish; this service required heated cars in cold weather and facilities for an attendant and a fast schedule. These loads ran on passenger trains. Both the Pennsy and that "other" road (NYC) handled these shipments out of the New York City area and either the C&O or the B&O offered the service for the Chesapeake Bay area. What the Midwest wouldn't do for fresh offerings of the sea. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] brass J-1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:46:21 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com both westside runs, and all the ahm. runs featured outside exposed sand lines. you most likely have a hotco J-1 all of these were built by ktm. it's also possible that a=20 previous owner could have modified the sand lines, as i=20 did on one of my westsides.....many years ago. the=20 hotco jay also had an older style box that used cardboard wrap for packing, along with crepe paper and plastic straw. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:51:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] R50B express reefers From: Frederick Ripley Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:51:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] R50B express reefers From: Frederick Ripley From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:15:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <102.4f1de9e6.2e7673d4@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains. They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains. = Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car (usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos. Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did. They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office and REA. Where = the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads = could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in = Texas-New York routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars = more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on = the PRR. This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in = PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed = materials). Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east empty. Eastbound/northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars = when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone know = of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:54 PM To: r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Baggage cars would be used when a load had to be kept absolutely dry. = Box=20 cars were notorious for leaky doors. When used as such, baggage cars typically=20 ran in freight trains handled on the rear ahead of the caboose. One = other use=20 I recall was for transporting live fish; this service required heated = cars=20 in cold weather and facilities for an attendant and a fast schedule. = These=20 loads ran on passenger trains. Both the Pennsy and that "other" road = (NYC)=20 handled these shipments out of the New York City area and either the C&O = or the B&O=20 offered the service for the Chesapeake Bay area. What the Midwest = wouldn't do=20 for fresh offerings of the sea. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: , , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:29:49 -0400 To: "Douglas Nelson" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of > where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug, Baggage cars did travel in freight trains. I was the third generation of my family to work for the Reading Company Railroad and witnessed this activity into the late 60s and possibly the early 70s. The Reading removed its last baggage car from revenue service in March of 1971. Baggage cars were used for shipments that could not tolerate damage in shipment. These cars were always handled as the rear most car(s) ahead of the caboose. I recall one shipment was art work, stone carvings, handled in a class BAa car going from a York City museum to a St. Louis museum during the summer of 1966. The car was routed CNJ/RDG/WM/?, don't recall who picked it up after the WM. I remember this car because the doors were padlocked and the locks had to be checked and logged every time the train stopped. Another item of note on passenger equipment. On the Reading and the CNJ passenger equipment could only be handled at the rear if the train weight, exclusive of the locomotive, exceeded 1,800 tons. Normal practice was to put it on the rear as there was an overriding concern amongst the crews that passenger equipment would not withstand the slack action of freight service. Otherwise the passenger equipment could be handled anywhere in the train. A good example was the shipment of new cars from the Budd Co. plant (near Philadelphia) that normally traveled in a freight train with not more than a dozen cars behind them. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Which brass J1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:45:07 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2004 11:45:13.0739 (UTC) FILETIME=[21A62DB0:01C49987] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Eric, I have an AHM brass J1 that is factory with the inside sand pipes. They made both versions. JAPAN is neatly stamped between the 4th and 5th drive axles on the axle cover plate. The HO Train Co and AHM models have a portion but not all of the frame consisting of a heavy casting. The cast portion of the frame is screwed to the brass frame near the trailing truck under the cab. The frame is brass sheet with bearings on the axles and only the portion of the frame under the cab is cast. The "Brown book" in error indicates that this locomotive has a cast frame. The entire frame is not cast The HO Train Co J1 models have less plumbing for the feedwater heater system than SOME of the AHM models. (it seams to be that the AHM outside sand pipe versions have more plumbing) Japanese Built: The West Side Models, AHM and HO Train Co J1 models were all made by Katsumi in Japan. Korean Built: The Key models by Samghongsa were built in Korea and the Sunset Models Prestige Series J1's were made in Korea as well. I have digital images of these models if that would help. Please contact me off list if you would want some E-mailed. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com Subject: Which brass J1 do I have? From: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:06:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) I have owned a brass J1 for sometime and would like to know who's it is. The sand lines are covered and it has Japan stamped on the bottom of the engine drive frame. Anyone have any way to tell, my guess is that it is either a AHM or Westside. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Westside J1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:04:27 -0500 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Westside J1 >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 >From: Chuck Bowman >Subject: Westside J1 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:42:30 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSZfNh4MNwhlehQSkSYPD0CvHZVzAAK15ug Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM To: Douglas Nelson Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] brass J-1 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:48:42 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com sorry, guys......i never saw a westside with inside sand pipes !! were they part of the first run ( open frame motor) or second run (can motor) ??? i've seen several painted examples, besides my own, that were modified to inside sand lines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Switcher #1203 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:43:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks to all who confirmed it was an A-5. I was very surprised it was scrapped in March 49 - I thought the picture was taken in the mid '50's. Roy - I will scan the picture and send it to you in hopes of identifying location. Not much to go on but that big storage tank. I can't send it to too many people because of the copyright, however, but sure would like to know location! Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:50 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (*) J_CHICKENPOX_42,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry and friends- Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the "Makeup of Trains" books you refer to. Are they on Merchandise Service site and I just don't see them? It has so much great stuff, I sometimes have trouble narrowing available info down to a manageable level! For those just getting started in passenger head-end service, consists, and equipment, it is a fascinating and complicated matrix of related subjects. I have found answers in, and suggest reading: "Railway Express Agency" by Roseman "Steam, Steel and Limiteds" by Kratville "The Trains we Rode, 2 vols." by Beebe and Clegg "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains" by Dubin "Passenger Terminals and Trains" by Droege "From Zephyr to Amtrak" by Randall "Car Names Numbers and Consists" by Wayner "Railroad Passenger and Pullman Car Names" by Wayner "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" annual back then by Railway Equipment and Publication Co. (ORER for passenger and headend cars) "Official Guide of the Railways" published several times a year throughout the twentieth century and a trove of endless treasures and often of new and even more baffling questions. Reprints are currently available of several key issues as originals are so often falling apart from use and age. "Car Builders Cyclopedias" Simmons-Boardman Pub var years "Train Shed Cyclopedias" var issues Books and Hist Soc publications about you favorite railroad, your favorite railroad's "house organ" magazine, and old issues of Trains magazine, Railroad magazine, Railway Age, model mags, and Passenger Train Journal contain a wealth of details about head-end service but requires lots of digging. Thanks, owen thorne Andy Miller wrote: > Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ > Pennsy > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM > To: Douglas Nelson > Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 > > On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > > > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? > > The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which > head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek > magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and > destination. > > The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no > passengers). Some had more than one rider car! > > There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A > Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive > coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this > book.) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 01:39 PM, Owen Thorne wrote: > Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the > "Makeup of > Trains" books you refer to. You need to visit the Passenger Operations section at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ There's a subsection called Makeup of Trains / Consist Books. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:08:53 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Douglas Nelson writes: >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains.  They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains.  Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car(usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos.< This is true of the PRR operations as well... >Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. In most cases not all. >Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did.  They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office andREA.  Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in Texas-NewYork routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on the PRR.  This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed materials).< This also depended on hwho held the contract for that mail contract. If the PRR held that routes contract then they would be expeced to supply the car for the move. Thisnk about it more mail that originated in the high populated areas generated more pounds (or feet of mail). Even today the carriers are responsible for mail on a per foot basis even locally. So with the population being higher in the east and only a few carriers with connections west, they would handle most of the volume. Mail contracts were very competitive. IT subsidized the passenger services. >Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east emty.  Eastbound /northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This is true and in the management of cars it would behoove you as the western carrier to reload the eastern cars back to destination and keep your cars on your home road. The government would not care whose car carried the mail just that is was billed as the proper footage. Can you imagine how many more empty car would be moving if you didn't reload cars towards home? Empty miles has and is a huge problem for the railraods then as it is today. >This would be a great subject for more detailed study.  Does anyone know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Yes, a good freind of mine and to this list did a very detail study of the operation of pre AMTRAK Mail and Express at the Chicago Union Terminal operations... Ed DeRouin of Pixels Publishing... Chicago Union Station, A Look at It's History and Operations Before AMTRAK ... Ed is also associated with the PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter and is working on more PRR related Chicago area books. Watch for their anouncement in TKM. Meet him this October at Naperville. You'll find he is a great addition to our PRR Community and long time PPR modeler in HO Scale. >Doug Nelson< Doug and all I find the mail and express a very intersting and am going to start a series of article (with help) regarding just that in modeling cars and explaining the operation highlights. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:05:28 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS Cgo Terminal Chapter -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Robert Vercel" To: Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:27:20 +0000 Hello, I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne divisions. Essentially, I am trying to paint/decal my models appropriately for these areas. The equipment may have entered and exited the rosters of these divisions from time to time, but I need only to have an idea of what equipment was present at any given time in the 15 year period listed above. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and effort. Bob Vercel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:05:28 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS Cgo Terminal Chapter -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Robert Vercel" To: Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:27:20 +0000 Hello, I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne divisions. Essentially, I am trying to paint/decal my models appropriately for these areas. The equipment may have entered and exited the rosters of these divisions from time to time, but I need only to have an idea of what equipment was present at any given time in the 15 year period listed above. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and effort. Bob Vercel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re; [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:15:01 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Evan Leisey wrote: "Box cars were notorious for leaky doors." Not just doors. The Class X29 internal carline roof design was nototious leaky. (That side sill rot moisture had to come from somewhere...) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:22:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] B6 not what you think X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/13/04 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Can anyone tell me for sure whether PRR switcher #1203 was an A-5? (Way) > outside chance it was a B-6. Caution - Class B6 is not a Lines East engine. I see a large number of mentions of class B6 on the list. In most cases, this is obviously being used as shorthand for B6sa or B6sb. However, while preparing The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, I learned that PRR's B6 class was a Lines West design, with some later being rebuilt with superheating into B6s class. Some of these engines were still active in Cincinnati between WW2 and the end of steam, which suggests they might be found that late in other Lines West assignments. The experts can confirm or deny that, once Lines West had introduced a B6 and a B6s, a similar Lines East design had to start with B6sa and go on to (the ubiquitous) B6sb. BTW, all four of these classes have different specifications in the "109" Classification of Locomotives and tenders. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about all this is that, although the experts make it clear that a B6sb is a different machine than a B6s, after they were both in service for a few years and updated for common Pennsy practice, they're not easy to tell apart in photographs, and you have to consult rosters to be sure. OTOH someone within reach of the list may be able to offer spotting tips I haven't picked up. Meantime, to be technically correct, those of you east of Pittsburgh need to use B6sb etc. instead of just B6. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:10:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re this subject of express cars in freight trains or vice-versa, I am sorry to beat this horse one more time, but on the Passenger Car list I have just raised it again and I am still not satisfied with the answer. In PPII there is a photo of a train purported to be Mail & Express 14 at Gould, Ohio. First of all, though it does look (to me) like Panhandle territory, my PTT and other documents don't show 14 West of Pittsburgh. I'm open to comments from those with more extensive libraries. or other evidence. Secondly, the train has a mix of LCL cars and express (baggage) cars. I was advised on this list that this was possible because there were no passenger carrying cars on this leg of the train route and no steam lines were needed. And the particular Erie-built on the head end did not have a steam generator. Another possibility would be it was summer and heat was not needed. OK, I will be happy if someone could just point me to a document which lists this train (assuming it is the right number) on a leg which did not have passenger carrying cars. Pittsburgh to Harrisburg and East had P70s. Only reason I am being so persistent (polite word for it :-)) is from a modeling standpoint. It would be fun to throw an LCL container car and a Merchandise X40b on the headend with R50bs and B60bs following. I'd just like to know if it was a regular thing. With thousands of photos out there, seeing only one with this consist mix doesn't satisfy me. And by the way, R50bs and B60bs are spotted in photos deadheading back in freight trains, though I would think that would be the exception, especially for the B60b Bob Zoeller > >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains. They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:47:04 -0500 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Westside Brass J1 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:06:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bob, "Mail 14" was an eastbound train out of Pittsburgh to NYC. Train left Pittsburgh with headend MS60s and one P70. Picked up a second P70 in Harrisburg. Source is from New York Division 1950 consist book. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] REA express cars Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:22:41 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What color where the REA express cars of the late 40's early 50's? I = would like to purchase a Walthers car or two, and want to get the right = one. Thanks, Jeff Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] MS60's / Deadheading Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:31:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Been all this talk about MS60's, other head end equipment, and routing of empties... The Makeup of Trains books, as far as I have seen, do not mention head end equipment of other roads. They do indicate rider cars, and there are a few cases (in 1954 anyway) of rider cars in the middle of the train, or multiple rider cars. But one 1954 mail and express train stands out for a couple of reasons, it's train #18, from Pittsburgh to New York. It's makeup is as follows: Express (X) -- from various sources, # cars as needed, to Hudson cutoff Deadhead Head Ends -- from Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, # cars as needed The above is a rare listing of deadheading! Express B60 Messenger -- from Chicago Express B60 Messenger -- from Pittsburgh Express B60 Messenger -- from St. Louis Express X29 -- from Harrisburg MS60 -- from Harrisburg BM70m Letter End West --- from Pittsburgh BM70m Letter End East -- from Pittsburgh MS60 -- from Pittsburgh MS60 (X) -- from Pittsburgh -- NY or PPC PB70 Scheme 6 -- from Pittsburgh P70kr -- from Pittsburgh P70 Scheme 6 -- from Harrisburg The above is noted for its deadheading of equipment. If you want a really LOONNG express train, go for train #95!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] F7s Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:09:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know whether there were any F7s with tuscan red paint but a single freight stripe? I have an old brass model that was delivered that way. If so, any numbering information other than the general info in Pennsy Power II? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [PRR] MS60's / Deadheading > Been all this talk about MS60's, other head end equipment, and routing > of empties... > > The Makeup of Trains books, as far as I have seen, do not mention head > end equipment of other roads. They do indicate rider cars, and there > are a few cases (in 1954 anyway) of rider cars in the middle of the > train, or multiple rider cars. > > But one 1954 mail and express train stands out for a couple of reasons, > it's train #18, from Pittsburgh to New York. It's makeup is as follows: > Express (X) -- from various sources, # cars as needed, to Hudson cutoff > Deadhead Head Ends -- from Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, # cars as needed > The above is a rare listing of deadheading! > Express B60 Messenger -- from Chicago > Express B60 Messenger -- from Pittsburgh > Express B60 Messenger -- from St. Louis > Express X29 -- from Harrisburg > MS60 -- from Harrisburg > BM70m Letter End West --- from Pittsburgh > BM70m Letter End East -- from Pittsburgh > MS60 -- from Pittsburgh > MS60 (X) -- from Pittsburgh -- NY or PPC > PB70 Scheme 6 -- from Pittsburgh > P70kr -- from Pittsburgh > P70 Scheme 6 -- from Harrisburg > > The above is noted for its deadheading of equipment. If you want a > really LOONNG express train, go for train #95!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:10:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] F7s > From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" > Subject: [PRR] MS60's / Deadheading From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:35:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <42826.94644@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.205.212.100] at Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:35:11 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, This is not an OFFICIAL status report, but based on what I observed on a visit to Steamtown about a month ago. The cab of the 1361 was upright outside the building. When one of my sons asked a tour guide about progress on the loco, he was told "Oh, that's not one of our projects". I mentioned to a different guide that the restoration was a bit overdue. His reply was "Yeah, wasn't it due in 1999?" and gave me that look. You know, the one that says "don't ask". George -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:54 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/13/04 PRR-Talk Digest - Monday, September 13, 2004 RE: [PRR] MS60 by "Douglas Nelson" Re: [PRR] MS60 by "Jerry @ Pennsy" RE: [PRR] MS60 by Which brass J1 by "Harry Fitch" Re: [PRR] R50B express reefers by "Bruce Smith" Westside J1 by "Chuck Bowman" Fwd: Westside J1 by "Chuck Bowman" RE: [PRR] MS60 by "Andy Miller" brass J-1 by Re: [PRR] Switcher #1203 by "William Bigler" Re: [PRR] MS60 by "Owen Thorne" Re: [PRR] MS60 by "Jerry Britton" RE: [PRR] MS60 by Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) by Re; [PRR] MS60 by Re: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) by "Jerry Britton" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: "Douglas Nelson" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:15:37 -0700 I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains. They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains. Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car (usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos. Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did. They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office and REA. Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in Texas-New York routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on the PRR. This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed materials). Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east empty. Eastbound/northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:54 PM To: r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Baggage cars would be used when a load had to be kept absolutely dry. Box cars were notorious for leaky doors. When used as such, baggage cars typically ran in freight trains handled on the rear ahead of the caboose. One other use I recall was for transporting live fish; this service required heated cars in cold weather and facilities for an attendant and a fast schedule. These loads ran on passenger trains. Both the Pennsy and that "other" road (NYC) handled these shipments out of the New York City area and either the C&O or the B&O offered the service for the Chesapeake Bay area. What the Midwest wouldn't do for fresh offerings of the sea. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:29:49 -0400 On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of > where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:28:29 EDT Doug, Baggage cars did travel in freight trains. I was the third generation of my family to work for the Reading Company Railroad and witnessed this activity into the late 60s and possibly the early 70s. The Reading removed its last baggage car from revenue service in March of 1971. Baggage cars were used for shipments that could not tolerate damage in shipment. These cars were always handled as the rear most car(s) ahead of the caboose. I recall one shipment was art work, stone carvings, handled in a class BAa car going from a York City museum to a St. Louis museum during the summer of 1966. The car was routed CNJ/RDG/WM/?, don't recall who picked it up after the WM. I remember this car because the doors were padlocked and the locks had to be checked and logged every time the train stopped. Another item of note on passenger equipment. On the Reading and the CNJ passenger equipment could only be handled at the rear if the train weight, exclusive of the locomotive, exceeded 1,800 tons. Normal practice was to put it on the rear as there was an overriding concern amongst the crews that passenger equipment would not withstand the slack action of freight service. Otherwise the passenger equipment could be handled anywhere in the train. A good example was the shipment of new cars from the Budd Co. plant (near Philadelphia) that normally traveled in a freight train with not more than a dozen cars behind them. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Which brass J1 From: "Harry Fitch" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:45:07 -0400 Eric, I have an AHM brass J1 that is factory with the inside sand pipes. They made both versions. JAPAN is neatly stamped between the 4th and 5th drive axles on the axle cover plate. The HO Train Co and AHM models have a portion but not all of the frame consisting of a heavy casting. The cast portion of the frame is screwed to the brass frame near the trailing truck under the cab. The frame is brass sheet with bearings on the axles and only the portion of the frame under the cab is cast. The "Brown book" in error indicates that this locomotive has a cast frame. The entire frame is not cast The HO Train Co J1 models have less plumbing for the feedwater heater system than SOME of the AHM models. (it seams to be that the AHM outside sand pipe versions have more plumbing) Japanese Built: The West Side Models, AHM and HO Train Co J1 models were all made by Katsumi in Japan. Korean Built: The Key models by Samghongsa were built in Korea and the Sunset Models Prestige Series J1's were made in Korea as well. I have digital images of these models if that would help. Please contact me off list if you would want some E-mailed. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com Subject: Which brass J1 do I have? From: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:06:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) I have owned a brass J1 for sometime and would like to know who's it is. The sand lines are covered and it has Japan stamped on the bottom of the engine drive frame. Anyone have any way to tell, my guess is that it is either a AHM or Westside. Thanks, Eric ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B express reefers From: "Bruce Smith" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:39:16 -0500 On Sep 12, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Hello all, > > I am looking at the Walthers Sept. catalog, and the various versions > of the > R50B express reefer (p.26). It seems to me these have been discussed > fairly > extensively in the past, so I'm sorry for any repetitition. My > questions > are fairly brief however. > > 1. Were these used in quantity up to the end of the PRR? Fred, They were getting pretty scarce towards the end. Bob Johnson, way back in January 2002 said (on this list) "At the beginning of 1967 there were only six R50B cars left on the passenger equipment roster. All were gone from the roster by the end of 1967." This email from Bob also contains excellent details on paint, lettering and safety appliances. I would note that during our PRRPro R50B project Bob determined that single grab on each end of the side was a further modification of 2 left grab car, and not a car that had escaped freight car appliance addition. For more details on this and sprucing up the model you can check out the PRRPro archives (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) > 2. If so, then I take it the keystone only scheme (932-5883) would be > most > applicable for mid-60's? This scheme posed an interesting problem for Walthers. I know it doesn't sound like them, but they wanted not only prototypical schemes, but they wanted documented photographic evidence and car numbers! Photos of "scotchlite" keystone R50Bs are very rare! I can't guarantee the numbers for the keystone R50Bs, but the scheme is correct (Greg Martin or Bob Johnson might be able to add more). This scheme would have started appearing in 1962, but cars may not have made it into this scheme for years, if at all, so you could also use a heavily weathered "Non-REA" scheme (the REA lettering was removed in 1954). > 3. Does one apply nos., like Walthers passenger cars, so more than one > road no. can be created, or do they come with nos. applied? No, the cars are numbered. The best way to get multiple numbers is to buy the 2 pack and the single, for three different numbers. After that, you're back to removing numbers and decals. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Westside J1 From: "Chuck Bowman" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 I have a Westside J1 with covered steam lines. On the bottom of the frame, it says "Japan" and "KTM". The initials are for KaTsuMi, who made the models, according to the label on the box. chuck Charles H. Bowman Lah Lah Farm 13350 Hopes Creek Road College Station TX USA Phone 1-979-690-7095 Fax 1-979-690-8069 Mobile 1-979-676-0279 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Fwd: Westside J1 From: "Chuck Bowman" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:04:27 -0500 Sorry......I meant covered sand lines. chuck >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:56:57 -0500 >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >From: Chuck Bowman >Subject: Westside J1 > >I have a Westside J1 with covered steam lines. On the bottom of the >frame, it says "Japan" and "KTM". The initials are for KaTsuMi, who made >the models, according to the label on the box. > >chuck Charles H. Bowman Lah Lah Farm 13350 Hopes Creek Road College Station TX USA Phone 1-979-690-7095 Fax 1-979-690-8069 Mobile 1-979-676-0279 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: "Andy Miller" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:42:30 -0400 Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM To: Douglas Nelson Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and destination. The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no passengers). Some had more than one rider car! There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this book.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: brass J-1 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:48:42 -0400 sorry, guys......i never saw a westside with inside sand pipes !! were they part of the first run ( open frame motor) or second run (can motor) ??? i've seen several painted examples, besides my own, that were modified to inside sand lines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Switcher #1203 From: "William Bigler" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:43:14 -0400 Thanks to all who confirmed it was an A-5. I was very surprised it was scrapped in March 49 - I thought the picture was taken in the mid '50's. Roy - I will scan the picture and send it to you in hopes of identifying location. Not much to go on but that big storage tank. I can't send it to too many people because of the copyright, however, but sure would like to know location! Bill Bigler ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: "Owen Thorne" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:50 -0400 Jerry and friends- Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the "Makeup of Trains" books you refer to. Are they on Merchandise Service site and I just don't see them? It has so much great stuff, I sometimes have trouble narrowing available info down to a manageable level! For those just getting started in passenger head-end service, consists, and equipment, it is a fascinating and complicated matrix of related subjects. I have found answers in, and suggest reading: "Railway Express Agency" by Roseman "Steam, Steel and Limiteds" by Kratville "The Trains we Rode, 2 vols." by Beebe and Clegg "Some Classic Trains" and "More Classic Trains" by Dubin "Passenger Terminals and Trains" by Droege "From Zephyr to Amtrak" by Randall "Car Names Numbers and Consists" by Wayner "Railroad Passenger and Pullman Car Names" by Wayner "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" annual back then by Railway Equipment and Publication Co. (ORER for passenger and headend cars) "Official Guide of the Railways" published several times a year throughout the twentieth century and a trove of endless treasures and often of new and even more baffling questions. Reprints are currently available of several key issues as originals are so often falling apart from use and age. "Car Builders Cyclopedias" Simmons-Boardman Pub var years "Train Shed Cyclopedias" var issues Books and Hist Soc publications about you favorite railroad, your favorite railroad's "house organ" magazine, and old issues of Trains magazine, Railroad magazine, Railway Age, model mags, and Passenger Train Journal contain a wealth of details about head-end service but requires lots of digging. Thanks, owen thorne Andy Miller wrote: > Another excellent source is Vic Rosmann's book on the REA. > > regards, > > Andy Miller > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ > Pennsy > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 6:30 AM > To: Douglas Nelson > Cc: RDG2124@aol.com; r.r.farquharson@att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 > > On Sep 13, 2004, at 1:15 AM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > > > This would be a great subject for more detailed study. Does anyone > > know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? > > The "Makeup of Trains" books, besides documenting which trains had which > head end equipment, often notes its content (such as Newsweek > magazine) and also which days of the week it ran, plus its origination and > destination. > > The "Makeup of Trains" books also include the full mail & express trains (no > passengers). Some had more than one rider car! > > There's also a book from Pixel Publishing called "Chicago Union Station, A > Look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak" which contains extensive > coverage of head end operations. (Merchandise Service is one source for this > book.) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:39:46 -0400 On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 01:39 PM, Owen Thorne wrote: > Would love to know of source for copies of, or information from, the > "Makeup of > Trains" books you refer to. You need to visit the Passenger Operations section at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ There's a subsection called Makeup of Trains / Consist Books. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:08:53 -0400 Douglas Nelson writes: >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that baggage cars were used in freight trains.  They were typically used in passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger trains.  Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the rear, or a cabin car(usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by passenger locos.< This is true of the PRR operations as well... >Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. In most cases not all. >Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did.  They served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office andREA.  Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P baggage cars in Texas-NewYork routes through St. Louis). My impression however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and southern roads traveling on the PRR.  This may have been the result of a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines and other printed materials).< This also depended on hwho held the contract for that mail contract. If the PRR held that routes contract then they would be expeced to supply the car for the move. Thisnk about it more mail that originated in the high populated areas generated more pounds (or feet of mail). Even today the carriers are responsible for mail on a per foot basis even locally. So with the population being higher in the east and only a few carriers with connections west, they would handle most of the volume. Mail contracts were very competitive. IT subsidized the passenger services. >Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east emty.  Eastbound /northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when PRR cars were not available. This is true and in the management of cars it would behoove you as the western carrier to reload the eastern cars back to destination and keep your cars on your home road. The government would not care whose car carried the mail just that is was billed as the proper footage. Can you imagine how many more empty car would be moving if you didn't reload cars towards home? Empty miles has and is a huge problem for the railraods then as it is today. >This would be a great subject for more detailed study.  Does anyone know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Yes, a good freind of mine and to this list did a very detail study of the operation of pre AMTRAK Mail and Express at the Chicago Union Terminal operations... Ed DeRouin of Pixels Publishing... Chicago Union Station, A Look at It's History and Operations Before AMTRAK ... Ed is also associated with the PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter and is working on more PRR related Chicago area books. Watch for their anouncement in TKM. Meet him this October at Naperville. You'll find he is a great addition to our PRR Community and long time PPR modeler in HO Scale. >Doug Nelson< Doug and all I find the mail and express a very intersting and am going to start a series of article (with help) regarding just that in modeling cars and explaining the operation highlights. Greg Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:05:28 +0000 Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS Cgo Terminal Chapter -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: "Robert Vercel" To: Subject: Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:27:20 +0000 Hello, I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne divisions. Essentially, I am trying to paint/decal my models appropriately for these areas. The equipment may have entered and exited the rosters of these divisions from time to time, but I need only to have an idea of what equipment was present at any given time in the 15 year period listed above. Any help you might provide would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time and effort. Bob Vercel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re; [PRR] MS60 From: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:15:01 +0000 Evan Leisey wrote: "Box cars were notorious for leaky doors." Not just doors. The Class X29 internal carline roof design was nototious leaky. (That side sill rot moisture had to come from somewhere...) Ben Hom ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:18:31 -0400 On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 03:05 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS > Cgo Terminal Chapter > > -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- > From: "Robert Vercel" > I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a > question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster > for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne > divisions. With regards to cabins, there's a "just missed" roster from 1957 on Keystone Crossings, which is searchable by divisions and includes most of the actual assignments. Address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ With regards to locomotives, you need Form 229. The Motive Operations section of Keystone Crossings has one for 1954, plus links to others on other web sites for 1944 and 1957. These are broken down by division. The address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/ Hope this helps! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:49:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1F4A28B6.2C2CB69F.0261055E@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Thanks Greg. Articles on this subject would be welcomed. Part of the reason Claus and I started Hell Gate Models was due to our interest in headend traffic. Several years ago someone announced a book on mail = trains (I still have the flyer somewhere) but it never appeared. Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of TGREGMRTN@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 11:09 AM To: "Douglas Nelson" Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Douglas Nelson writes: >I hope someone else can chime in here, but I do not believe that=20 >baggage cars were used in freight trains. =A0They were typically used = in=20 >passenger trains or in mail & express trains that operated as passenger = >trains. =A0Mail & express trains typically had a rider coach on the = rear,=20 >or a cabin car(usually one assiged for use by REA)and were pulled by=20 >passenger locos.< This is true of the PRR operations as well... >Postal terminals were often adjacent to passenger stations. In most cases not all. >Bob's original question had to do with how baggage cars used for mail=20 >storage service and off-line cars on the PRR; and PRR cars on the other = >railroads. I believe that these cars operated on scheduled routes as=20 >Bob suggested, rather than roaming freely as freight cars did. =A0They=20 >served scheduled services for customers such as the Post Office andREA. = =A0 >Where the scheduled services extended beyond the PRR, cars of other=20 >railroads could show up on the Middle Division (such as the MP/T&P=20 >baggage cars in Texas-NewYork routes through St. Louis). My impression=20 >however is that PRR cars more often traveled off line, than western and = >southern roads traveling on the PRR. =A0This may have been the result = of=20 >a greater volume of westbound/southbound mail & express originating=20 >online and shipped in PRR cars all over the country (such as magazines=20 >and other printed materials).< This also depended on hwho held the contract for that mail contract. If = the PRR held that routes contract then they would be expeced to supply the = car for the move. Thisnk about it more mail that originated in the high populated areas generated more pounds (or feet of mail). Even today the carriers are responsible for mail on a per foot basis even locally. So = with the population being higher in the east and only a few carriers with connections west, they would handle most of the volume. Mail contracts = were very competitive. IT subsidized the passenger services.=20 >Some PRR cars were probably backhauled east emty. =A0Eastbound=20 >/northbound mail and express shippments were probably sent to the PRR=20 >in PRR cars when available, or cars of the originating railroad when=20 >PRR cars were not available. This is true and in the management of cars it would behoove you as the western carrier to reload the eastern cars back to destination and keep = your cars on your home road. The government would not care whose car carried = the mail just that is was billed as the proper footage. Can you imagine how = many more empty car would be moving if you didn't reload cars towards home? = Empty miles has and is a huge problem for the railraods then as it is today.=20 >This would be a great subject for more detailed study. =A0Does anyone=20 >know of where information on mail & express operations can be found? Yes, a good freind of mine and to this list did a very detail study of = the operation of pre AMTRAK Mail and Express at the Chicago Union Terminal operations... Ed DeRouin of Pixels Publishing... Chicago Union Station, = A Look at It's History and Operations Before AMTRAK ... Ed is also associated with the PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter and is working on more PRR related Chicago area books. Watch for their anouncement in TKM. Meet him this October at Naperville. You'll find he is a great addition = to our PRR Community and long time PPR modeler in HO Scale.=20 >Doug Nelson< Doug and all I find the mail and express a very intersting and am going = to start a series of article (with help) regarding just that in modeling = cars and explaining the operation highlights.=20 Greg Martin=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:57:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:45:54 -0400 To: k4sb@niia.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 13, 2004, at 11:57 PM, Ken Hough wrote: > I suggest we > all call Steamtown and ask exactly what is going on. See how many > different stories are told to us. Again, be reminded, K4 #1361 is NOT a Steamtown project. They may not be willing to give an update. Interesting quandry, however. The Altoona museum management is on this list. They've been asked to provide an official update but have chosen not to respond. But if you go and get a third party update and post it, they will be the first to chime in and complain about not seeking an "official" update. Been down that road several times before. Best bet might be someone from the Altoona Chapter of the NRHS. Anyone? P.S. I don't think anyone has ever officially noted where they intend to run K4 #1361 once it is restored. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:37:47 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] DRAWBAR QUESTION From: "Ken Hough " Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:02:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RRM Comments? please? K4 1361 Status Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:08:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Wathers REA cars From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:08:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Wathers REA cars From: Frederick Ripley From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers coach in TKM 14 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:17:07 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In TKM 14 Greg Martin claims that the 52 seat Budd coach from Walthers is a Seaboard car for Florida service and while lettered PENNSYLVANIA in black, not a PRR prototype. This is partially correct. The cars are those built for the Florida service on the Silver Meteor and Sliver Star, and as such, Seaboard owned the lion's share. However, the PRR participated in the pool and bought ten cars (4048-4067). They were designated P85e and lettered as Walthers has done. See Rob Schoenberg's diagram at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=p85e.gif &sel=coa&sz=sm&fr= regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:05:19 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Bd Wooden Baggage Car From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <7E52F3AE-065F-11D9-A2BD-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.193.50 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Group, I am working on a drawing of a Bd baggage car based on data from Rob's site and a photo. Then I found out that Strasburg lists one on their roster. Soooo, has a Bd drawing already been done, and if there's one at the RRMoP, can I borrow someone's photos to help with the drawing, which I'll make available? BTW, I'm interested in both versions of the car. TIA. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:19:49 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <850FAE04-0661-11D9-A2BD-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.193.50 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:19:49 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <850FAE04-0661-11D9-A2BD-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.193.50 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walthers sleeper Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:46:01 -0400 From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walthers sleeper Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:46:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:18:30 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers sleeper Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, Is Walthers PS 6-6-4 sleeper PRR correct? for 1955-57? Chris, It is not orrect in PRR paint as the PRR did not buy the 6-6-4 configuartion. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PRR program on PBS / WQED Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:41:42 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List ,=20 I just saw a program announcement on the public broadcasting channel = here in Pittsburgh , WQED . They will air a program on the PRR this = Thursday night at 8 pm . The trailer looks great ! Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 =20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:07:37 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello again , I checked on WQED's website and there will be an encore airing of the = PRR program on Saturday, September 18, 1:00 am . If you miss it = Thursday you'll have a chance to see it again on Saturday . Mike Hmel=20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:57:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR program on PBS / WQED MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mike, List, Just checked WQED's website and found this 1 sentence desription of the PRR program mentioned: http://www.pbs.org/modules/tvschedules/multichannel.programinfopopup.stations.html?display_format=ep_description&title_id=17769&display_date=2004-09-16&display_time=20:00&display_feed=461&feeds=461,462,12425&station=WQED&zipcode=&transport=&provider=0&channelsuppress=f Hope that url came through ok....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:25:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry: Interesting post. If the Museum folks are on this list as you say, how do they expect us to contribute real money but be mum on what is going on. One person's opinion!!! They DO NOT OWN 1361. WE ALL DO. THEY JUST HAVE IT IN TRUST FOR THE REST OF US. Truly, I was going to donate something when I got around to it. Now I wonder what is going on. I have kept track of previously reported problems at the Museum. You would think they would be a little more PR oriented. I'll ask the question!!! If anyone on this list is associated with the Museum management and want donations, at least from me, WHAT'S UP WITH 1361??? All the best to you and yours Weldon D.Greiger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsy" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: K4 1361 Status > On Sep 13, 2004, at 11:57 PM, Ken Hough wrote: > > > I suggest we > > all call Steamtown and ask exactly what is going on. See how many > > different stories are told to us. > > Again, be reminded, K4 #1361 is NOT a Steamtown project. They may not > be willing to give an update. > > Interesting quandry, however. The Altoona museum management is on this > list. They've been asked to provide an official update but have chosen > not to respond. But if you go and get a third party update and post it, > they will be the first to chime in and complain about not seeking an > "official" update. Been down that road several times before. > > Best bet might be someone from the Altoona Chapter of the NRHS. Anyone? > > P.S. I don't think anyone has ever officially noted where they intend > to run K4 #1361 once it is restored. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:10:51 -0400 From: michael hmel [mailto:michaelhmel@netzero.net] Subject: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:56:51 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Maybe I can shed some light on the connections between passengers cars. As you note there are 3 connections. The largest is the bottom one, steam line. The one you call "an articulated mechanical gizmo." This requires a hammer to connect and disconnect. The next one is the brake pipe (trainline), just like on a freight car. Its the larger of the 2 air lines and is located adjacent to the draft gear. The signal line is outboard of the brake pipe and its usually smaller in diameter. Both air lines use the same size glad-hand. If the brake pipe (trainline) is broken within a car, the signal line can be used until the trainline can be repaired. The brakes on the offending can must be bleed off and the brake cut out cock closed. Of course, the signal line is inoperable from that point to the rear of the train. There was also an electrical connection between Pullman cars so the adjacent porter could "cover" for a sleeping porter during the night. It was located at the upper side of the diaphragm. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg Ritacco Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:20 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:07:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Maybe I can shed some light on the connections between passengers cars. As you note there are 3 connections. The largest is the bottom one, steam line. The one you call "an articulated mechanical gizmo." This requires a hammer to connect and disconnect. The next one is the brake pipe (trainline), just like on a freight car. Its the larger of the 2 air lines and is located adjacent to the draft gear. The signal line is outboard of the brake pipe and its usually smaller in diameter. Both air lines use the same size glad-hand. If the brake pipe (trainline) is broken within a car, the signal line can be used until the trainline can be repaired. The brakes on the offending can must be bleed off and the brake cut out valve closed. Of course, the signal line is inoperable from that point to the rear of the train. There was also an electrical connection between Pullman cars so the adjacent porter could "cover" for a sleeping porter during the night. It was located at the upper side of the diaphragm. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg Ritacco Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:20 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Hi Group, With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you accidentally couple one to the other? Thanks again. Greg Ritacco ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Meeting Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:29:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20040818.213616.772.9.jthomasmet@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcSFmXJ1BZrIMlkxQXi9hod6EH8NlgVnrEAQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, Guys, My computer crashed (virus) and I lost all the digital photo's I took at the Cincinnati meeting. As I recall, somebody posted their own photo's on the internet shortly after the meeting. Could he or someone else please contact me so I can look at them and download some to try to reconstruct my visit and memories? Thanks much. Doug Kirkpatrick kirkpat@charter.net Medford, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:53:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline Trains PSA From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Public Service Announcement... Branchline Trains will begin shipping 10-1-2 heavyweight kits on Sept. 20th. Pennsy 8-1-2's are currently still available. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:57:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE -- N Scale P85b Coaches From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <5346004F-0738-11D9-B2DC-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 15th of the month FOR SALE post... Full sets (6 numbers) of the second run of N scale InterMountain/Centralia Car Shops P85b coaches in the PENNSYLVANIA letterboard scheme. Contact me off-list if interested. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Employee Magazines Wanted Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:30:16 -0500 Message-ID: <5C7927ABD321EB458EF70953E0D053E80183742F@INDYSMAIL02.am.thmulti.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] FOR SALE -- N Scale P85b Coaches Thread-Index: AcSbSCzuRi28eMzlTQCKYbrZcZ3D1QAASN2Q From: "Colman Gerald \(TTE\)" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Sep 2004 17:30:17.0109 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAA53C50:01C49B49] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 15th of the month WANTED post... Looking for the following issues of the "Pennsy" magazine: '54 Sept '55 April, Jun, July, Aug '56 Mar, May, Sept, Dec Please contact off list if interested in selling. Thanks, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:44:32 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: Re: FA: PRR MP54 Kits by Walthers] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: FA: PRR MP54 Kits by Walthers Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:26:51 -0400 From: PRR-Talk To: Ellen & Garry >I have listed 3 MP53 kits, 1 MPB54 kit, and 1 pair of Brass Hyatt trucks > on ebay. > >MP54 Kits OB: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920410731 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920411827 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920412605 > >MPB Kit: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920414431 > >Brass trucks: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5920410577 > >Garry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Inventory Reduction Sale Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:30:35 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have two new in the box Broadway Ltd. M1b's from the latest run = available at $210.00 ea. plus $7.00 UPS shipping. Your choice of #6762 = (stock #052) or #6744 (stock #053). Please contact me off list. = Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:53:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cabin cars at South Miller X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Recently an N5 & an N5c were placed on a piece of track next to South Miller siding on the Buffalo line 1/2 mile north of Millersburg,Pa. They have been purchased by Mark Wisniski of Satrun Surplus who owns the Army surplus business located along rt.147 there. An article in today's Upper Dauphin Sentinel shows a crane placing them there and details some of his plans to restore the N5C to its as-built appearance, complete with the "buy War Bonds' paint scheme. The N5 may be repainted Conrail and a third cabin is expected soon, although the artical gave no details of its class or former railroad owner. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subj.: B&O Museum X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A little good news for the railfan community. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum Reopens to the Public on Saturday, November 13, 2004 BALTIMORE, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum will celebrate the rebirth of its signature Roundhouse when it reopens its doors to the public the weekend of November 13-14, 2004. Visitors will be able to celebrate the complete restoration of the 1884 National Historic Landmark Roundhouse, and also experience some of the museum's expanded facilities. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20040915/PHW001-b ) During Presidents' Day weekend in 2003, a record-breaking snowstorm swept through the state of Maryland dumping a record three-foot snowfall onto the roof of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum's signature building, the National Historic Landmark 1884 Baldwin Roundhouse, causing a partial collapse of the roof and damaging some of the most important railroad locomotives and artifacts in the Western Hemisphere. The Museum staff, along with teams of architects, engineers, and construction crews, has worked tirelessly since the collapse to rebuild, restore and reopen this national treasure 22 months following the collapse. In November, visitors will celebrate the complete restoration of the historic Roundhouse. The Museum's Roundhouse is a 22-sided polygon and is the largest circular industrial building in the world. Designed by E. Frances Baldwin, the Roundhouse was completed in 1884. Throughout the restoration process, crews have worked to completely rebuild the lower roof, clerestory roof and lantern while preserving the original design of the building using modern materials. In addition to the Roundhouse restoration, visitors will experience some of the Museum's expanded facilities. The Museum will showcase new exhibition galleries featuring the Smithsonian's Railroad Model Collection, Railroad China and Silver, and Clocks, Pocket Watches and Railroad Time. Brand new interpretive panels will provide insight into the historical significance and the cultural aspects of different exhibits and the artifacts presented within. On the two new outdoor train exhibition platforms, visitors get an inside view of many of the Museum's trains unavailable to the public prior to the collapse. Displayed in the C&O #725 passenger car will be the new HO model train layout, which depicts the lay-of-the-land from Baltimore's port to the Mid-West. Visitors will also rediscover the most important and comprehensive collection of railroad locomotives and rolling stock in the Western Hemisphere. The Museum will now offer daily train rides along the "most historic railroad right of way in America" from April through December and during weekends in January. No train rides are scheduled during February and March. The Museum's first major event is Holiday Festival of Trains, a seasonal favorite and Museum tradition, beginning on Friday, November 26, 2004 and continuing throughout the holiday season until Thursday, December 30, 2004. The Museum will celebrate its Grand Reopening during Memorial Day Weekend 2005. The Museum will unveil its new state-of-the-art restoration facility and open the historic North Passenger Car Shop to the public. Other exhibits and expanded facilities will also be part of the celebration including a new living history center and family activity center. For more information on the Museum's reopening celebrations and programs, interested parties can visit http://www.borail.org or call 410-752-2490. About the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum, a full affiliate of the Smithsonian Institution, is dedicated to the preservation and interpretation of American railroading and its impact on American society, culture and economy. The Museum is home to the oldest, most comprehensive collection of railroad artifacts in the Western Hemisphere including an unparalleled roster of 19th and 20th century railroad equipment. The 40-acre historic site is regarded as the birthplace of American Railroading and includes the 1851 Mt. Clare Station, the 1884 Baldwin Roundhouse and first mile of commercial railroad track in America. In February 2003, a record-breaking snowstorm partially collapsed the roof of the 1884 Baldwin Roundhouse, the Museum's signature building and collections exhibit space. The focus of the Museum has been to restore, rebuild, and reopen this national treasure. The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum will reopen to the public on Saturday, November 13, 2004. A Grand Re- Opening Celebration will take place Memorial Day Weekend 2005. For ongoing updates on the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum, its restoration and re-opening celebrations, please visit http://www.borail.org. CONTACT: Amy Getz, 410-752-2462, ext. 214 agetz@borail.org SOURCE Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum CO: Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum; Smithsonian Institution ST: Maryland SU: Web site: http://www.borail.org .LEHIGH AND NEW ENGLAND the all Alco road to New England Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:40:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography revisited Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:40:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography revisited From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj.: B&O Museum Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:56:41 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, FWIW they may not have what many devoted SPF's may=20 consider enough PRR equipment they do have an Ex-PRR H39=20 painted in PC that last I saw was in ballast service for=20 them.=20 Also, I spent the middle week of August on site installing=20 the layout and got a chance to walk around and see the=20 changes. I had a great time, I can't descibe the feelings=20 felt when standing inside the restored roundhouse and=20 under the new canopies. I dare to even admit i've become a=20 now out of the closet B&O fan.=20 One pther piece of Pennsy content. Custom Model Railroads=20 of Baltimore built the layout. The only full-time custom=20 layout builder on the east coast. Makers of cut/engraved=20 acrylic kits, one of which bears a likeness to Baltimore's=20 Penn Station. You can visit at www.cmrtrain.com for more=20 information. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. RDG2124@aol.com wrote: A little good news for the railfan community. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Museum Reopens to the Public on=20 Saturday, November=20 13, 2004 On the two new outdoor train exhibition platforms,=20 visitors get an inside=20 view of many of the Museum's trains unavailable to the=20 public prior to the=20 collapse. Displayed in the C&O #725 passenger car will be=20 the new HO model train=20 layout, which depicts the lay-of-the-land from Baltimore's=20 port to the Mid-West.=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR on WQED.... Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:18:54 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:18:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6AD3AC74-0804-11D9-B776-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent hurricanes, but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow and causing a lot of tornados. We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce Smith (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to name a few. The I-10 bridge at Pensacola, for instance, has seen better times... http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_156_images/ 091604_ivan6.jpg Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:18:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <6AD3AC74-0804-11D9-B776-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent hurricanes, but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow and causing a lot of tornados. We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce Smith (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to name a few. The I-10 bridge at Pensacola, for instance, has seen better times... http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_156_images/ 091604_ivan6.jpg Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] M1b's Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:48:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:58:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Some quick info on two M1b's: #6762 and #6744 > > Where found on the system? According to the MP229 dated March 1954, both were assigned to the Middle Division. According to the MP229 dated July 1957, both were assigned to the Pittsburgh Division. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:12:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Additional comments, but CONJECTURE... On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:58 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Chany, Christopher > wrote: > >> Some quick info on two M1b's: #6762 and #6744 >> >> Where found on the system? > > According to the MP229 dated March 1954, both were assigned to the > Middle Division. In one of Don Wood's books he noted that as of 1954, 50% of all freights in/out of Enola to/from the Middle Division were still headed by M1 power. > > According to the MP229 dated July 1957, both were assigned to the > Pittsburgh Division. By 1957, the Middle Division should have been fully dieselized. The M1's might now be serving as helpers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:22:57 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Eyewitness account: M-1's were still on the MD in the spring of 57. I saw them at Lewistown. Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Chany, Christopher" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's > Additional comments, but CONJECTURE... > > On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:58 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > On Thursday, September 16, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Chany, Christopher > > wrote: > > > >> Some quick info on two M1b's: #6762 and #6744 > >> > >> Where found on the system? > > > > According to the MP229 dated March 1954, both were assigned to the > > Middle Division. > > In one of Don Wood's books he noted that as of 1954, 50% of all > freights in/out of Enola to/from the Middle Division were still headed > by M1 power. > > > > According to the MP229 dated July 1957, both were assigned to the > > Pittsburgh Division. > > By 1957, the Middle Division should have been fully dieselized. The > M1's might now be serving as helpers. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:36:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b's MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Scrap Dates: (according to Edson's roster) M1b 6762.. sold for scrap.......9/59 M1b 6744.. sold for scrap.......9/59 ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] 1361 Update & e-mail addresses for museums Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:20:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone from either of these lists give me one or more e-mail addresses for someone from the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum especially, and Steamtown? I would like someone who really knows what is going on with 1361, not just a general address or the contact address off the website. A few months ago I toured the Steamtown rebuild shop with the ranger in charge of the shop and shop tours. We spent quite a lot of time looking at and talking about 1361 and looking at all the parts in the shop. He really opened up, with history of the locomotives late operation on PRR, operation in excursion service since including the rebuild(s) since retirement, and what they found at Steamtown on first inspection and throughout the rebuild. He summarized work to be done. The only thing he couldn't comment on was estimated completion date - they're sworn to secrecy under penalty of death by slow torture, as far as I could tell. I took copious notes and wrote them up when I got home, and would like to post them to both lists. However, the museum(s) should see them first, and know I'm going to do it. However, it's information given in a National Park during a public tour, so I have every right to post it. I'd rather have the museum(s) comment to me first, and even endorse all or part of my notes, and especially know it's coming, as they will be flooded with e-mails etc. While I'm sure they moniter these lists, I would like to e-mail someone direct who will respond so I can send my comments to them right away for comment first. However, Railfest is approaching, rumors seem to be appearing again, and I feel I owe it to the railfan community to publish what I've been told. So, I will give them a few to several days to respond to me, then post the information if I haven't heard back. Thanks in advance. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:45:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Update & e-mail addresses for museums X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For Steamtown go to the following URL and post your question. http://www.nps.gov/stea/pphtml/contact.html Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:29:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Branchline Passenger car survey sort of X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I agree with Eddie. We do need some RTR but still keep the kit form also. PRR Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:25:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Branchline X43B box car kits come with a roof that is mostly black to simulate application of a waterproof coating. = Can anyone confirm that these cars actually received such a coating when = new? If so, would the coating have also covered the roof walk = (Branchline supplies a black one in the kit) or just the roof panels? = Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:15:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can anyone tell me whether K4s were ever used for priority freight--like a block of reefers instead of reefers with passenger service--in the mid-50s? Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Branchline Passenger car survey sort of > I agree with Eddie. We do need some RTR but still keep the kit form also. > > PRR Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:21:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I don't think it lasted into the mid-50's but I seem to have read somewhere that the early Merchandise Service LCL trains out of Polk St. Frt. Station near Chicago Union Station occasionally used a K4. Can't remember where I read it, Keystone or online. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "TCJ Riggs" > Can anyone tell me whether K4s were ever used for priority freight--like a > block of reefers instead of reefers with passenger service--in the mid-50s? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:43:48 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] 1361 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:52:07 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] 1361 Updates Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:52:07 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] 1361 Updates From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:55:34 +0000 >From: "TCJ Riggs" >Subject: [PRR] Use of K4s >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:15:09 -0400 >From: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Branchline Passenger car survey sort of From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:13:42 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Dateline 8-1-1938, Chicago Il, http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/fav3870.jpg Doubleheaded K4s's on reefer train.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:25:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 10:14 AM, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > The make-up of trains for a date I beliee in September 1953 or 1954 > appeared in several issues of Rails Northeast in the late 1970s. You > may have copies of this magazine. Rails Northeast ran 1953 consist information. While a lot remained the same, I will note that -- having the original 1954 data on-hand -- a lot actually changed between 1953 and 1954. A lot of heavyweight sleepers were phased out and a lot of diner assignments were changed. Most of the lightweight sleeper assignments were the same. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:53:50 -0700 From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Subject: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:56:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <96913E48-08CA-11D9-9570-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:56:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <96913E48-08CA-11D9-9570-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:07:54 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Asphaltum paint sounds like it would be very thick like tar. Did it apply smoothly like paint or show brush or mop marks after application? Could be a chance to brush paint something for a change. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." : -------------- > Frank; > This issue got batted around before. No one has an overhead shot of the > X43B. However, the painting instructions to the builder (AC&F?) called for > the roof to be painted with Asphaltum, which is black. There was no call > for it to be painted over, which a builder might have been very cognizant > about, given the extra expense. The one good color shot I have seen of this > car seems to show the roof ribs peeking out above the edges of the car > sides, and seem to be black. > > That being said, the PRR also clearly painted the roofs FCC in their own > shops. The instructions are unclear enough that shop folks could have just > overshot the whole deal with FCC. This is clear on many other cars we have > overhead photos of. > > The bottom line is, until an overhead shot of an X43B turns up, you may not > get a definitive answer. I am leaving my BL X43Bs as furnished. I believe > these cars were not painted on the roofs until repainted in SK schemes by > the PRR, if then. > > Elden Gatwood > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park > Varieties > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:26 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Roof Color > > The Branchline X43B box car kits come with a roof > that is mostly black to simulate application of a waterproof coating. Can > anyone confirm that these cars actually received such a coating when new? > If so, would the coating have also covered the roof walk (Branchline > supplies a black one in the kit) or just the roof panels? Thanks. > Frank Brua > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:25:55 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Norm Bell asked: "Asphaltum paint sounds like it would be very thick like tar. Did it apply smoothly like paint or show brush or mop marks after application? Could be a chance to brush paint something for a change." Surprisingly, prototype photos of cars that received this non-skid paint don't show much texture at all. What they do show is an almost dead flat appearance. I've modeled this effect using matte black paint, either airbrushed or from a spray bomb. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:39:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 From: ANGELA SUTTON Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:59:51 -0400 Subject: Re: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: undef - spam-scanning disabled X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For an additional, albeit distant, photo, Walter Feibelman's "Rails to Pittsburgh" contains a photo of a K4 at Pitcairn yards with a freight tender including doghouse, c. 1948-49. No explanation of what service it was performing there, though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:58:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Scott and all: Since I'm the one that threw the bomb, I believe I should acknowledge your post by saying that I appreciate your response. And I will put my money where my mouth is and you will receive a decent check from me within the next few weeks. I challenge others to do the same!!! I don't know which list (s) you refer to, but I like others, cannot, subscribe to a unlimited lists. If the updates are posted, would you please Cc: this list??? Lots of SPF on this list. One question which BEGS for an answer is: Do your plans include restoration to operating condition and where will the operations take place??? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "director " To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:43 AM Subject: [PRR] 1361 > As posted on more than one list/bulletin board, etc, the project is fully funded, understaffed (we are searching, so far in vain, for a full-time machinist), and on-track to be finished in the late summer/early fall of 2005. There is a task list/work plan prepared by Andy Spurlock at Starfire Engineering listing approximately 125 tasks of varying complexities that need to be completed. Nobody is keeping anything secret from anyone. > > Anyone who feels a sense of "ownership" of any piece of historic equipment, not just 1361, should make sure that they are willing to finance the organization charged with the restoration, preservation, and/or operation of that equipment. You can "finance" your "ownership" claim with money, volunteer time, or simply acting as a goodwill ambassador on behalf of the organization. > > Anyone wishing to donate to the Museum in order to facilitate the future operation and maintenance of the Museum and locomotive is most welcome to do so. Watch for web updates as we now have a person who has stepped forward to volunteer his time to compile progess reports and photos for everyone to keep abreast of the project - something we simply do not have the paid staff to accomplish. > > Scott Cessna > Executive Director > Railroaders Memorial Museum > Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of K4s Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:35:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, As a new participant in this list, I very much appreciate your knowledgeable answers to this and my one previous question. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Ted Andrews" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:13 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of K4s > > > Dateline 8-1-1938, Chicago Il, > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/fav3870.jpg > > Doubleheaded K4s's on reefer train.....Gary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The trucks in the pic of that PRR 12-1 Pullman are the same as those shown earlier on the B&O car. Are they correct for Pennsy? If so, what era? They look like top-equalized trucks to my amateur eyes. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. > > Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is > ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The > Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison > between the two as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:01:49 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The trucks in the pic of that PRR 12-1 Pullman are the same as those shown earlier on the B&O car. Are they correct for Pennsy? If so, what era? They look like top-equalized trucks to my amateur eyes. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. > > Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is > ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The > Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison > between the two as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:10:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70 FBR Eastern Car Works From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:47:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70 FBR Eastern Car Works From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/18/04 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:08:47 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:07:54 +0000 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:25:55 +0000 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roof Color From: "robert netzlof" Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] RPM Meet in Perry Ohio Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:39:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Is anyone from these lists going to be at the RPM Meet in Perry Ohio next weekend? I'll be there for the PRRT&HS and NKPHTS. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:07:59 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List , I'm trying to get to Jerry's Keystone Crossing page and I'm getting a = bad Gateway message when I try to enter the address . Does anyone have a = different address than the one I'm using ......( http://kc.pennsyrr.com = )=20 Thanks , Mike Hmel=20 Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net=20 E-bay : iron*mah =20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chris Brandt" Subject: [PRR] Small obelisk near ARSENAL. Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:10:04 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm=20sitting=20at=2030th=20St,=20which=20now=20has=20wireless=20internet=20= :) Just=20took=20the=20Septa=20R1=20from=20the=20airport=20and=20noticed=20on= =20the=20way=20a=20small=20obelisk=20near=20the=20tracks=20just=20before=20= ARSENAL. It=20has=20markings=20on=20the=20base,=20but=20I=20couldn't=20make=20any=20= of=20them=20out=20--=20going=20by=20too=20fast. Anyone=20know=20the=20significance=20of=20it? Chris PRRTHS=20#6285 ______________________________________________________________________ This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20by=20the=20MessageLabs=20Email=20Sec= urity=20System. For=20more=20information=20please=20visit=20http://www.messagelabs.com/ema= il=20 ______________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chris Brandt" Subject: [PRR] Small obelisk near ARSENAL. Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:10:04 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm=20sitting=20at=2030th=20St,=20which=20now=20has=20wireless=20internet=20= :) Just=20took=20the=20Septa=20R1=20from=20the=20airport=20and=20noticed=20on= =20the=20way=20a=20small=20obelisk=20near=20the=20tracks=20just=20before=20= ARSENAL. It=20has=20markings=20on=20the=20base,=20but=20I=20couldn't=20make=20any=20= of=20them=20out=20--=20going=20by=20too=20fast. Anyone=20know=20the=20significance=20of=20it? Chris PRRTHS=20#6285 ______________________________________________________________________ This=20email=20has=20been=20scanned=20by=20the=20MessageLabs=20Email=20Sec= urity=20System. For=20more=20information=20please=20visit=20http://www.messagelabs.com/ema= il=20 ______________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:37:12 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mike: That is the correct address -- it is working now, but wasn't earlier. I'm pretty sure Jerry has been off-line lately due to the remnants of Ivan which hit the area earlier this weekend (I live about 5 miles from Jerry)... I haven't talked to him, but most small streams are over their banks locally and the Susquehanna is expected to crest about 4 feet over flood stage late Sunday... None of this should affect the site or the list anymore, but many people locally have had no power or no phone service from late Friday until recently... I went to the grocery store earlier today and ended up needing 3 detours around flooded roadways... That said, since the list and website are back up, I'm guessing Jerry is fine... Jeff Warner michael hmel wrote: >Hello List , >I'm trying to get to Jerry's Keystone Crossing page and I'm getting a bad Gateway message when I try to enter the address . Does anyone have a different address than the one I'm using ......( http://kc.pennsyrr.com ) >Thanks , >Mike Hmel > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] keystone crossing page Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:43:45 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List; I tried Jerry's sites also and am getting "Page not found" = messages........... Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] keystone crossing page Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:43:45 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List; I tried Jerry's sites also and am getting "Page not found" = messages........... Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:57:57 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] OT: Open house -- Harrisburg/York, PA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all: I will be having an open house of my layout on Saturday, Sept 25th from 1 PM to 5 PM located between Harrisburg and York, PA (there is another layout about 15 minutes away also open the same day -- e-mail me for more info)... The layout features Pennsylvania, Reading, and Western Maryland railroads and uses the Digitrax (DCC) and C/MRI (signalling) systems. It is a two deck HO scale layout in a 22' x 36' basement. If anyone is interested, more info on the layout can be found at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/warner/ Directions to my house can be found at: http://operators.pennsyrr.com/directions_jeff.ws4d For more information, contact me at either jeff@pennsyrr.com or jeffrywarner@suscom.net. Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:07:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A coworker, who is getting into the hobby and reading every railroad related thing he can lay his hands on, recently passed on this tidbit. The signal used on American railroads to warn at a grade crossings is two long blasts, a short blast followed by a final long blast held until the train enters the crossing. This pattern is also the Morse code letter Q. According to my coworker, this signal was used by British ships to signal when the Queen was aboard, and when sounded all other ships allowed this ship priority of passage. Sounds like a good story to me. Anyone on the list know if this is true? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 08:36:55 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, I talked to Jerry last night and he got 18" of water in=20 his basement. He's been pre-occupied with that, save for=20 coming to an Op session last night. Before he left last=20 night he said his wife finished squeegeing the water out=20 of the basement. My best guess is things should be=20 underway by today or tomorrow. -John Jeff Warner wrote: Mike: That is the correct address -- it is working now, but=20 wasn't earlier.=20 I'm pretty sure Jerry has been off-line lately due to the=20 remnants of Ivan which hit the area earlier this weekend=20 (I live about 5 miles from Jerry)... I haven't talked to=20 him, but most small streams are over their banks locally=20 and the Susquehanna is expected to crest about 4 feet over=20 flood stage late Sunday... None of this should affect the=20 site or the list anymore, but many people locally have had=20 no power or no phone service from late Friday until=20 recently... I went to the grocery store earlier today and=20 ended up needing 3 detours around flooded roadways... That said, since the list and website are back up, I'm=20 guessing Jerry is fine... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-Talk list" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:36:14 -0400 To: "michael hmel" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 18, 2004, at 5:07 PM, michael hmel wrote: > I'm trying to get to Jerry's Keystone Crossing page and I'm getting a > bad Gateway message when I try to enter the address . Does anyone have > a different address than the one I'm using ......( > http://kc.pennsyrr.com ) Hmmm.... could it be hurricane Ivan? Yup... 18" of water!!! The sump pump burned up BEFORE the rain started. We worked on getting a new pump installed as water poured in... but we were too far behind the eight ball. Fortunately we were a lot more mobile this time around and losses were nill, other than an emergency plumber call and the decision to go with a commercial sump pump replacement. Getting real tired of modeling with real water!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:39:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com dougnelson@mindspring.com writes: The trucks in the Walthers photo look like Pullman 242 trucks which were correct for about half the 12-1s in PRR service. Doug Nelson Doug and all, Correct the Walthers 12-1 will have the 242 trucks. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:54:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/19/2004 10:12:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > The signal used on American railroads to warn at a grade crossings is two > long blasts, a short blast followed by a final long blast held until the > train > enters the crossing. This pattern is also the Morse code letter Q. > According > to my coworker, this signal was used by British ships to signal when the > Queen was aboard, and when sounded all other ships allowed this ship > priority of > passage. > It is true that - - . - is Q in International Morse code. But railroads used an earlier and different version, right? What is Q in that code? And when did the - - . - signal become common on railroads? And why would American land railroads have copied a British nautical custom? Sounds like further research is required. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:13:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/18/04 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Carl writes: Here is another example of paint names having different meanings. As you all know, paint color names are also misleading; like the guy who bought a bottle of "zinc chromate" paint and was surprised to see that it was a yellowish green. Carl P. Izzo Carl, My first encounter with a can of zinc chromate primer was RUSTOLEUM in the late 60's and as I expected it was a yellow-green. This was the same color used to prime aluminum in the aircraft industry. I always questioned the FLOQUIL Zinc Chromate Primer as it was an oxide color which I equated to the RUSTOLEUM Damp-Proof Primer. One benefit of the old RUSTOLEUM Damp Proof Primer was that you could apply it to a damp surface as it displaced the moisture. I have always wondered if this quality was one of the reasons for the paint used by the rail car manufacturers resembled Damp Proof Primer type products. It appeared to be nearly the same as Damp Proof Primer and have the oxide qualities of displacing moisture and thus making it easier to paint cars in environments where the controls were less than advantageous compared to say those like the auto industry. I only wish that we could discover a perfectly preserved can of 40's era FCC to fully test its qualities, not just the color. Being a once paint salesman in my teenage years I find the subject of paint interesting especially if you understand how it was made then... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:41:26 -0500 From: Morgan Bilbo Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen, now grade crossing X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello All The 1925 PRR Rule Book showed: "(l) -- -- o o Approaching public crossings at grade, and, when view is obscured by weather and other conditions, approaching interlocking plants, stations, yards or other points where men may be at work on tracks." Now what that is in Morse Code is for someone else to say. Morgan Bilbo PRRTHS #1204 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Water in basement Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:41:04 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & list, Message said Jerry had 18" of water in basement & wife finished squeegeeing it out. A small wet/dry shop vac (Sears, Lowes, etc.) is superb. Carole & I can't lift our 8 gallon model with more than 4 gallons in it to empty, so no need for a large one. From hard floor it sucks up 4 gal. or more literally in a few seconds. Amazing on rugs, but sucks so hard difficult to move attachment! Good luck. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: abendschein@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:40:23 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trying to get to Keystone Crossing ... Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:48:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: power failures and sump pumts etc, a friend in Detroit bought a natural gas generator with auto start which runs itself for a few minutes per week (all programable). Did have to have a larger natural gas line installed. If power goes off electricity is back on in 10 seconds or less (his takes 6-8!). Cost installed was amazingly low. Can send website of manufacturer (he bought turn-key) system. His is quite large and he has a monstrouly huge house. Runs all but A/C. He only has to re-set the digital clocks etc. Let me know if you want info & website of manufacturer. I even have a photo with pictures and captions if anyone wants, or a website with pictures posted. Best, Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Natural Gas Generator Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:59:03 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, I am receiving enough inquiries about the fully automatic, cost = effective, natural gas generator that I am posting the complete = information to the list including original e-mail from my friend John = including cost with turn-key installation of his unit, URL's for the = manufacturer and the generator (list on left gives details of the = specific product), and URL for pictures of John's installation with = captions. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Timing is everything, and I lucked out with the "Big Blackout" = last month; we've had numerous power failures here over the last year, and I = have a portable 4500-watt generator, but we have to be home to hook it up and = run it. We had two failures in June when we were gone over weekends and lost = two freezers full of food both times, so I finally bit the bullet and had a fully-automatic Generac 20-KW natural gas-powered standby generator = system installed in July (pic attached). We don't have to be home, don't have = to touch anything - it fires up when the power drops out, shuts off when = the power comes back on, and starts itself up once a week for ten minutes = and does a self-diagnostic check so it's always ready to go. When the power dropped out on the 14th, we had full power eight seconds later - all we = had to do was re-set the digital clocks. More photos and details at: (see = below). It was $6,400.00 installed, complete turnkey job by a professional standby generator contractor/Generac distributor; gas company had to = replace the meter with a high-flow version with two regulators on it - one feeds = the existing house gas piping at the standard residential 0.6 psi, and the = other one feeds a new 2-1/4" gas pipe to feed the generator at 2.0 psi. Our electric utility (DTE - Detroit Edison) has a division that also = installs standby generator systems, and they quoted me $14,900.00 for EXACTLY the same system; turns out they hire the same independent contractors to = install the systems, pay the contractor, then mark that up 125% and bill their customers - what's wrong with this picture? http://www.generac.com/ Generac (manufacturer) home page http://www.generac.com/industrial/products/RLC_Series.asp Descriprition = of Generac natural gas automatic generator http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=3D359956 Pictures = of John's installed generator with captions =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Good luck! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Water in basement Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:17:58 -0400 To: "William Bigler" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 19, 2004, at 2:41 PM, William Bigler wrote: > Message said Jerry had 18" of water in basement & wife finished > squeegeeing > it out. A small wet/dry shop vac (Sears, Lowes, etc.) is superb. > Carole & > I can't lift our 8 gallon model with more than 4 gallons in it to > empty, so > no need for a large one. From hard floor it sucks up 4 gal. or more > literally in a few seconds. Amazing on rugs, but sucks so hard > difficult to > move attachment! Bill: Thanks for the tought. KNowing the water was coming, we got most of the stuff out of the basement. But we figured it would only be a few inches, since they were calling for, and we got, significantly less rain than the flood of six weeks ago. Anyway, we have a wet vac and left it in the basement figuring water would never get to the motor. It did. I thought it better to let it dry before plugging it in. I went to an op session last night while a pump was still pumping out the basement. When the water was mostly clear the wife started pushing water into the new sump rather than firing up the wet vac. The wet vac, by the way, worked fine this morning. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Randy Williamson" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Natural Gas Generator Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:19:44 -0400 To: "William Bigler" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I really do appreciate the thoughts, tips, etc., that are coming in regarding our (and others) plight with hurricane Ivan, but let's get the list back on topic. No harm, no foul. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Water in basement Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:46:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry & list, I've used a hair dryer on electrical items that have gotten wet (take housing off if possible), then plug it into an outlet with a ground fault interrupter. Test the outlet first with something you know didn't get wet first, just to be sure. Never had a problem with this approach. If item is very expensive, however, caution and prudence are best. Bill Jerry said: I thought it better to let it dry before plugging it in. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Marysville Subway Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know when the Marysville Subway (I think that's what it's called) was built and whether Pennsy built it? It's an awesome stone underpass under the Pennsy mainline in downtown Marysville. First time I saw it I was speechless (totally rare!). Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:56:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Marysville Subway Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:21:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent > hurricanes, but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow > and causing a lot of tornados. > > We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce > Smith (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to > name a few. Jerry and all, Thanks for the thoughts! I'm finally back on-line. We got off very lucky although we have been "camping" since Thursday without any power... Aside from dodging a few near miss tornadoes Thursday AM, we have no damage locally except a few downed trees (and the power lines into the neighborhood). Of course, that did make it difficult to build any PRR models... candlelight not being ideal for decaling and no power for my compressor! I did manage to clean off some of the castings for my F&C H30. Hope we hear from Steve Hoxie soon. Pensacola is a rough place right now. No food, no water, no sanitation. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:53:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj: Make way for the Queen Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:31:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 From: Gary Rowe Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:31:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 From: Gary Rowe From: "Larry Denton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Marysville Subway Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:53:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This went under the Marysville yard, didn't it. Larry Denton ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: [PRR] Marysville Subway > Does anyone know when the Marysville Subway (I think that's what it's > called) was built and whether Pennsy built it? It's an awesome stone > underpass under the Pennsy mainline in downtown Marysville. First time I > saw it I was speechless (totally rare!). > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:42:52 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Make way for the Queen X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [68.163.98.228] at Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:42:41 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This question was cross-posted to the Passenger Car List, arriving for me from that list first. I supplied the following answer, so I might as well cross-answer my 2 cents here: I can't comment on the ship story, but as to the grade crossing signal being the letter "Q," it is not relevant to railroads. The signal _ _ o _ is only "Q" in International or Continental code (two names for the same code). Railroads used Morse Code, AKA American Morse, in which the letter Q is o o _ o. [Railroads] have never, to my knowledge, used International or Continental code. There is no use of _ _ o _ in Morse code. Many railroads once used the signal _ _ o o for grade crossings. The KCS, for instance, still had a timetable note in the 1940's, changing this signal to the one used today. There were many different whistle signals, needed for communication before the advent of train radios. The grade crossing signal, as well as warning motorists, teamsters, etc., distinguished the signal from the other signals. ---------- BTW, the Phillips Code is not a dot-dash code, but a "shorthand" system of abbreviating words and phrases for more rapid communication. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:20:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Off Subj.: B&O Museum From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > Listers, > > FWIW they may not have what many devoted SPF's may > consider enough PRR equipment they do have an Ex-PRR H39 > painted in PC that last I saw was in ballast service for > them. The wreck derrick on display is an ex-PRR 120 ton derrick (ie the Tichy kit). In addition, they have a nice collection of (non-PRR) steam era freight cars that were very accessible the last time I was there (prior to the collapse). I got several complete underbody series for later projects . Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:00:08 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Marysville Subway Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Bill, Jerry and the List: The Marysville Subway was built by contractor Harry S. Kerbaugh & Co. (builder of the west half of the present stone-and-concrete Rockville Bridge) during the span of time that the bridge was under construction. Thus, it's no surprise that it resembles the architecture of the bridge and that the chief masonry building material (pink sandstone chiefly from Clearfield and Cambria counties) is identical. Kerbaugh also held the contract for rearranging the main line approach to the west side of the present bridge, so it's easy to understand that he had a force of several hundred men at work on multiple projects in a small area -- the bridge, the approach and new "passenger" main line, and the subway, which was part of the overall r-o-w realignment. Passing beneath the Marysville yard near the former location of the Marysville roundhouse, the subway eliminated three grade crossings that had become known as death traps. Kerbaugh began work on the subway in May 1901 and completed it on December 19, 1901. For reference, work on the Rockville Bridge was begun in April 1900 and the first regular train crossed on March 30, 1902. Locally, the PRR term "subway," meaning "underpass," remains in common use today. One of the indices of the severity of river flooding on the Susquehanna and Juniata -- certainly a headline topic this weekend -- is whether the Duncannon Subway (built by Drake & Strattan, the contractor for the east half or the present Rockville Bridge) is passable or impassable, and always reported as such in the local print and broadcast media. The local weathercaster for Harrisburg's ABC network affiliate WHTM-TV, Chuck Rhodes, lives near Duncannon so he always reports it that way and often jokes about Duncannon having a "subway" but never drops the use of the term because everyone locally knows it as such. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ---------------------------------------------- William Bigler wrote: >Does anyone know when the Marysville Subway (I think that's what it's >called) was built and whether Pennsy built it? It's an awesome stone >underpass under the Pennsy mainline in downtown Marysville. First time I >saw it I was speechless (totally rare!). > >Bill Bigler - 4915 >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:03:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <002001c499de$6d272d50$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob Zoeller wrote: "Only reason I am being so persistent (polite word for it :-)) is from a modeling standpoint. It would be fun to throw an LCL container car and a Merchandise X40b on the headend with R50bs and B60bs following. I'd just like to know if it was a regular thing. With thousands of photos out there, seeing only one with this consist mix doesn't satisfy me." Bob, thanks for the scan of this photo. Based on the evidence gathered so far, I don't believe that the caption is correct. I couldn't find any other examples of such a consist in my PRR sources, but I did find a clue among my SP sources. On page 46 of Tom Dill's "Southern Pacific's Historic Overland Route - A Color Pictorial," there are two photos of an SP express extra taken in December 1956. The train is powered by freight service F-7s, has a mixed consist of baggage cars and ordinary boxcars (including a PRR Class B60B), and has a caboose on the rear end. The caption states that these extras, run on passenger train schedules, were common during the holidays, necessitated by Christmas mail and packages. While the full foliage in the photo in question discounts Christmastime, the mix of cars powered by freight service locomotives certainly fits this pattern. I believe what we're seeing here is a solid express train. With no passenger accommodations, a steam generator-equipped locomotive was not needed. I wouldn't be surprised if a cabin was at the rear of this train. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:11:59 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ~I'd appreciate thoughts on a solution but it appears that Branchline has ~made a major error with this kit -- a real shame since we need these models ~and can't get them elsewhere. A *major* error?! Lord, what are we demanding of kit manufacturers now? Hardly major - the wrong length or too many windows would be major, but this is the sort of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller rather than a runner of preassembled models should be able to fix with a minimum of effort. Should we have to fix them? In a perfect world, no, but tool makers and designers are human and what is a generous clearance in 1/1 becomes a fractional tolerance in HO. Trim the beams with a file to clear the centre sills or relocate them- either will be a compromise with dead scale, but one that is necessary if you want a working model. Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:53:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] CT470 late 1890s MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings,Can anyone tell me what a CT470 was used for? I found a few in a yard sale for a couple of bits the other day. That old style writing is hard to read. The one I can seems to be talking about mismatched bearings between 52638 and 52636. I assume these numbers or car numbers not part numbers.thanks --Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:18:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:18:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:28:59 -0700 (PDT) From: MICHAEL MERCURE Subject: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:30:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR] postwar 10-6's and 4-4-2's From: Frederick Ripley From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:06:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, you can check the archives on Pennsy-Talk as this has been discussed quite a bit (including by me). Based upon existing photos, there are 1939-40 cars in postwar paint scheme with skirting and upper berth windows, there are 1939-40 cars with abbreviated or no skirting and plated over upper berth windows, but I cannot find any evidence that any 1939-40 car existed in the configuration modeled by Walthers, that is, postwar paint scheme, no skirting, but upper berth windows. The conclusion by those more in the know than I am is that at the time skirting was removed, the windows were plated over. That said, I still run em until I can get around to modeling plated over windows neatly and matching the paint, which given my backlog of projects, is probably never. I am also hoping someone models a 1948 version of the 4-4-2. The 1938 cars lasted until well into the 60's, but the premier trains usually got the 1948 versions. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" > My question is the following: of the 4-4-2 schemes, the writer describes > one as postwar, w/out skirting, but with the upper birth windows, and adds > "Yikes!". > > "Yikes" doesn't sound good- is it the windows that are wrong? I would like > to have one of these cars, still in use in extra service in the 1960's, but > not if it has a major problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:29:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As someone who has been modeling for 50 years and still can come up with monumental screwups, I agree with your sentiments in general. However, the original poster made some disparaging remarks about the BL car, indicating he would have to wait for a version that did not have problems, implying that somehow Branchline had screwed up. I held back my original post, but I will now gently note that there are some mechanical laws at work here. You takes your choice. Fairly exact prototypical underbody details or a car which will run on typical (not broad) model railroad curves. In this case you do not get to have your cake and eat it too. You can modify the precisely modeled Branchline car or you can wait for a Walthers version. I suspect the latter will run on model railroad curves out of the box reasonably well. I also suspect the underbody detail will not match that of the BL car. Your choice. In the post I cancelled, I planned to say that the poster is fortunate not to have a $300 brass RPO like I have. I run it on Bachmann trucks because otherwise it shorts even on 40 inch radius curves with the detailed underbody rigging it has. I chose not to unsolder all the detail (figuring there might be a 100-1 chance I would sell the car someday) and instead go with the plastic trucks, albeit not the greatest truck models in the world (weathering does wonders :-)) Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "MICHAEL MERCURE" (big snip)> > Every so often I become very upset when someone asks a > question which may seem "stupid" or "silly" to an > individual, and that individual chooses to belittle > the question with comments such as "this is the sort > of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller > rather than a runner of preassembled models should be > able to fix with a minimum of effort." etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:06:55 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-reply-to: <20040921022859.4964.qmail@web80503.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Since my comment would seem to have generated this thread, let me respond. I know the list is inhabited by people of various levels of experience. If my wording was so crude as to give cause for minor upset than that is my fault. I had hoped to perhaps manage expectations of what you might get with such a kit rather than issue a crude put-down, which is how the comment seems to have been taken. Nonetheless, I stand by my remark that this is a trivial fit issue and not the huge manufacturing faux-pas that was suggested. Buy certain importer's fancy brass passenger cars and see exactly the same problem on very expensive models - now that _is_ a major error Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:18:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- Ken McCorry http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:18:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- Ken McCorry http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:56:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's- comments from Greg Martin From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:30:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-72 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: ggb3@juno.com X-ContentStamp: 16:8:3160814455 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The only reason someone would demean another on here is because the one putting down has a weak over enlarged ego and feels the need to build one's self up by putting another down. Closed minds obviously have nothing more to learn except when to keep their keyboard shut. Maybe some counseling regarding inferiority issues might be in order. Remember we talk about the Standard Railroad of the World. I was four years old when the PRR merged and then died. I sure as %$#@ don't know everything about it. I'm here to learn about it and have learned invaluable information here. We're all here for the same reason TO LEARN. WHO CARES what aspect you want to learn about. I was told when learning my craft on the railroad that the only dumb questions are those not asked. In that arena asking just might save my life or someone elses. ASK AWAY!!!!!! George On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:22:59 -0500 "Ken Hough " writes: > Nicely put. This and the Yahoo lists have LOTS of members who I'm > sure are novices or modelers with less experience that are afraid to > > post and do not. I hope they start now. It would be nice to see some > > new screen names. > Ken > > It seems to me that the main reason for creating a > list group such as "PRR-talk" is to help each other > out with questions and problems that are encountered > in regards to the PRR, whether it be its history or > modeling. > > Every so often I become very upset when someone asks a > question which may seem "stupid" or "silly" to an > individual, and that individual chooses to belittle > the question with comments such as "this is the sort > of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller > rather than a runner of preassembled models should be > able to fix with a minimum of effort." > > This type of comment tends to make others hesitate to > ask any questions, no matter how silly or stupid that > question may seem -- and I don't think that is the > mission of this list. > > Perhaps individuals should think about their comment > before making that type of comment. If this person > knew the answer to the question or how to fix the > problem, he wouldn't have asked it in the first place. > > Come on guys -- be sensitive. Most of us are NOT > PERFECT, DO NOT PROFESS TO "KNOW IT ALL", and do ask > "DUMB" questions, in the eyes of some people. > > I enjoy this list very much and have learned untold > amounts from it -- both historical and in modeling. > It was my love of the PRR and model railroading of the > PRR that made me join it -- as I am sure is the case > with most of us. Please don't discourage that by > being demeaning to the individual asking a question. > > I thank all those who make it possible -- both in > maintaining the list and answering questions and > sharing information. > > Regards. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:49:22 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can someone steer me to an online reference to the above, with spotting = tips? My question is inspired by the P2K GP9 Phase I with QSI sound = announced. No PRR, but the undec appeals if Pennsy ever had one of = these. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:49:22 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Can someone steer me to an online reference to the above, with spotting = tips? My question is inspired by the P2K GP9 Phase I with QSI sound = announced. No PRR, but the undec appeals if Pennsy ever had one of = these. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:05:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken writes: Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- Ken McCorry I would hope the smoke unit is an option I don't have to pay for... It is for the Toy Train Enthusiast... I sure hope they get the DGLE color closer than it was on their J1... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:54:14 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg/all: Reading the MTH website closer (there are about 6 screens of info, not just the one Ken sent the link to), it does appear that DCC users will be able to directly control sounds (like the annoying station annoucements) and the smoke unit. While we may still have to pay for it, at least we can turn it off!!! It will be interesting to see if these are marketed toward the "toy train enthusiast" or the "serious modeler" or some combination. I guess time will tell... Jeff Warner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Online Commentary Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:35:19 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List... I missed the beginning of the current "flame war"... busy with drying out my basement for the second time in two months and other more important things. I'm not going to play Monday morning QB and go back and see who said what, but responding to what I have picked up on: Please be tolerant of queries that you feel are overly basic, etc. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You don't need to agree, but you do need to respect it. Keep the commentary clean. Let's get back to the Pennsy and leave the current situation behind us. Thanks. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:32:24 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I like it that they do include enginehouse assignments on=20 the pilots, though for some that would be doing=20 prototypical modeling, even myself may need to change=20 them. A deciding factor for myself would be how much retail will=20 be. That price, 399.99, is comparible to BLI's 450.00 but=20 I know right now i'm sitll leaning towards BLI,=20 considering I can get mine for just over $300.00. The good thing is quality steam, comparible to brass is=20 coming out. Where's that H-class and I-class? Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:05:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I wish MTH would have chosen a different locomotive to do, such as a H. As far as the future goes, I would think an I is a sure bet, but what about after that? Will we see either of the S's? How about some H's? Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:24:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As we have all been told somewhere along the line, the only dumb question is the one we don't ask! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "MICHAEL MERCURE" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 10:28 PM Subject: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List > It seems to me that the main reason for creating a > list group such as "PRR-talk" is to help each other > out with questions and problems that are encountered > in regards to the PRR, whether it be its history or > modeling. > > Every so often I become very upset when someone asks a > question which may seem "stupid" or "silly" to an > individual, and that individual chooses to belittle > the question with comments such as "this is the sort > of thing anyone who describes themselves as a modeller > rather than a runner of preassembled models should be > able to fix with a minimum of effort." > > This type of comment tends to make others hesitate to > ask any questions, no matter how silly or stupid that > question may seem -- and I don't think that is the > mission of this list. > > Perhaps individuals should think about their comment > before making that type of comment. If this person > knew the answer to the question or how to fix the > problem, he wouldn't have asked it in the first place. > > Come on guys -- be sensitive. Most of us are NOT > PERFECT, DO NOT PROFESS TO "KNOW IT ALL", and do ask > "DUMB" questions, in the eyes of some people. > > I enjoy this list very much and have learned untold > amounts from it -- both historical and in modeling. > It was my love of the PRR and model railroading of the > PRR that made me join it -- as I am sure is the case > with most of us. Please don't discourage that by > being demeaning to the individual asking a question. > > I thank all those who make it possible -- both in > maintaining the list and answering questions and > sharing information. > > Regards. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:29:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jeff: I'd trade a lot of the MTH optional sounds for siderod clank. The Soundtraxx Tsunami Claims to have it included. Yea! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Greg/all: > > Reading the MTH website closer (there are about 6 screens of info, not > just the one Ken sent the link to), it does appear that DCC users will > be able to directly control sounds (like the annoying station > annoucements) and the smoke unit. While we may still have to pay for > it, at least we can turn it off!!! > > It will be interesting to see if these are marketed toward the "toy > train enthusiast" or the "serious modeler" or some combination. I guess > time will tell... > > Jeff Warner > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:37:48 -0500 To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 21, 2004, at 7:05 AM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > I wish MTH would have chosen a different locomotive to do, such as a > H. As far as the future goes, I would think an I is a sure bet, but > what about after that? Will we see either of the S's? How about some > H's? > Eric I keep saying this! Market, market, market!! Really, the only surprise is that BLI waited so long before doing a K4. The K4 is a "signature" loco, like the GG1, or for that matter the T1, where even non-PRR modelers (ie collectors, toy train folks, etc) have to have at least one. Since those folks WAY out number the serious PRR modeler, our purchase of multiples of one loco does not come close to duplicating the numbers sold to the unwashed masses... Will an I1 be forthcoming? Sure! Other PRR steamers? You bet! An H? Maybe... but the market for these simply does not compare (not that it is not sufficient, just not as big) as the market for something like a K4, which like the market for F units, is probably big enough to sustain more than one company... The good news is that there is now another fish in the pond that might be persuaded to make a streamlined K4! Oh yeah, I bet the MTH locos have BEMF decoders ;^) But what's this about 120 speed steps...ain't they heard its 128? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:54:29 -0500 To: "Larry Reynolds" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 21, 2004, at 7:29 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > Jeff: > > I'd trade a lot of the MTH optional sounds for siderod clank. The > Soundtraxx Tsunami Claims to have it included. Yea! > > Larry I would too, but when will we actually SEE a Tsunami??? Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:04:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com 1. You are right on, Bruce, re the market demand. I wouldn't be surprised to see an S2 turbine before any I1 or H10. And of course the streamlined K4 has to be near the top:-). Given that MTH has done the S1 in O, that may be in the works as well, with all drivers blind:-). My fellow club members here in the Midwest, none Pennsy fans, have more GG1s than I do, by the way (though one who brought his BLI PC in has got me drooling and figuring out how to get another credit card---that sound just blows me away, taking me back to my Philly days). 2. Re your final comment on 120 speed steps, I may be wrong but my understanding is that MTH ignores compliance with NMRA standards or RPs on DCC. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" > I keep saying this! Market, market, market!! Really, the only > surprise is that BLI waited so long before doing a K4. The K4 is a > "signature" loco, like the GG1, or for that matter the T1, where even > non-PRR modelers (ie collectors, toy train folks, etc) have to have at > least one. Since those folks WAY out number the serious PRR modeler, > our purchase of multiples of one loco does not come close to > duplicating the numbers sold to the unwashed masses... Will an I1 be > forthcoming? Sure! Other PRR steamers? You bet! An H? Maybe... but the > market for these simply does not compare (not that it is not > sufficient, just not as big) as the market for something like a K4, > which like the market for F units, is probably big enough to sustain > more than one company... > > The good news is that there is now another fish in the pond that might > be persuaded to make a streamlined K4! > > Oh yeah, I bet the MTH locos have BEMF decoders ;^) But what's this > about 120 speed steps...ain't they heard its 128? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:34:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com MTH's "wireless" tether between the loco and tender is an intriguing item. I for one would not miss the mini-connectors that are damage prone when being disconnected. Wonder exactly what this tether is? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:44:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guys, You all weren't caught off guard with the announcment of MTH entering the HO market were you? Not sure exactly when I heard rumors of it but it was quite awhile ago. You didn't think MTH would let Lionel be the only toy train company to invade the HO world and have fun alone did you? The only surpise to me is that their announcment was a K4s as their first entry. I heard another report, read as "rumor", months ago but just can't recall now what it was. But I didn't think it was a Pennsy loco. I never paid much attention to their O scale line so I do not know what the scale fidelity cranks out to be, but casual viewing of some of their stuff looks pretty good. You can bet ya that their HO scale counterparts will be exact miniatres of the O scale line. And you can bet ya that anything already available in their O scale line, will be a candidate for the HO line. They make many so it may be years before everything they decide is worthy is available in HO. But I do hope they pick stuff from the "Preimier" line, not their toyish railking line. What are the locos they have had available in the O Scale "Premier" line at this point? K4s, T1, S2, GG1's? (J1?). I am not sure as I really don't follow their line. I can remember seeing M1's I1's, H10s, , Centipedes too but they may not be of the scale quality line. I see some duplicating of locos BLI has already released or will be soon. Thats par for the course these days. Can anyone confirm the photos of the MTH K4s is HO or of their O Scale version? Lots of comapnies throw out something for a tease. If it is the HO version, and from the pictures I seen, the front ends looks better than the BLI sample pic on their website. Interesting stuff none the less. Of the many locos MTH has produced, HO modelers of many railroad lines will sure to be on the look out for their next HO entry. Could we see another UP Challenger or Viranda Turbine just to compete with thier longtime enemy or a PRR T1 to compete with a new rival? ........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:52:20 -0500 To: RDG2124@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:34 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > MTH's "wireless" tether between the loco and tender is an intriguing > item. > I for one would not miss the mini-connectors that are damage prone > when being > disconnected. Wonder exactly what this tether is? I noticed that too! It could lead to some fun practical jokes when the hostler swaps tenders After all the decoder is likely to be in the tender, so it would retain the loco address. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:05:42 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary Mittner wrote: [snip] >Centipedes too but they may not be of the scale quality line. > > yes, MTH's centipedes were in the premier line and came out in 1999... This would be one addition I would welcome in plastic... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:35:10 +0000 From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:12:35 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <752DC151-0BD5-11D9-A8F4-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSf44wYNcO97ElBQcSU+sD6uEl3cQAIqNKQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Unless they got everything in the loco: motor, flywheel, decoder, speaker(s), sound unit, smoke unit, smoke reservoir, etc; and the tender just goes along for the ride. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:52 AM To: RDG2124@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:34 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > MTH's "wireless" tether between the loco and tender is an intriguing > item. > I for one would not miss the mini-connectors that are damage prone > when being disconnected. Wonder exactly what this tether is? I noticed that too! It could lead to some fun practical jokes when the hostler swaps tenders After all the decoder is likely to be in the tender, so it would retain the loco address. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] MTH K4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:59:14 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One of the more intriguing features of the MTH K4 is the claim to 2 Kadee couplers. The coupler on the pilot of the pre-war K4 has the traditional Kadee "glad-hand", but the postwar model shows a drop coupler in the dropped position. Is this too a Kadee?? regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] MTH. K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:25:47 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com good point about the front coupler on the post war K-4. i'm gonna guess that mike will give you a drop functional dummy that can be replaced with a fixed kadee installation. glad to see some thought being given to working couplers on the front ends of steamers after all these years of non functional, and hard to remedy, dummy jobs. i imagine the details will be coming soon on this and lots of other questions. jaygee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:37:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce: They, (Soundtraxx Tsunami's), should be available by the end of this year,....hopefully. More good news, they will have cam actuated exhaust capability. I can hear steam drifting down the hill already! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" To: "Larry Reynolds" Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > > On Sep 21, 2004, at 7:29 AM, Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > Jeff: > > > > I'd trade a lot of the MTH optional sounds for siderod clank. The > > Soundtraxx Tsunami Claims to have it included. Yea! > > > > Larry > > I would too, but when will we actually SEE a Tsunami??? > > Regards > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith > Auburn, AL > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:28:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:18:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Comments in E mails on List From: Gary Rowe From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:36:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com He just my do it. I was surprised w hen he released t he 0 gage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5A8A9916-0C33-11D9-8D68-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Scherb PRR Structures Book Vol. Two Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:04:28 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just received a stock of Jeff Scherb's "Trackside on the Pennsylvania: Volume Two: Structures of the Standard Railroad of the World" from Highlands Station. Like the first volume, it contains 96 pages of ICC drawings that he converted to scale using CAD software. So the drawings are very clear and crisp. Since they are in scale, photocopies can be used on your layout as a mockup until you get an actual model in place. Book contains both generic and specific structures in the following categories: Signal and Switch Buildings, Passenger Stations, Combination Stations, Yard and Shop Buildings, Freight Houses, and Additional Structures. I was thrilled to find the elevations of HARRIS tower. ZOO and HUNT are also included. A number of tool sheds, outhouses (yes, outhouses), freight sheds, etc. are included. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:46:32 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I will be in Washington on business late next week and I have one day = free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at Washington = Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting hassled, shot at or = arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head up to Harpers = Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those work, I will just = have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B. Kleins. Regards, Greg Johnson Friendswood, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:21:55 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 65fbc22f705d6e9971639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94019d90858036c00a80cf21e4cab6b310b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 199.174.137.20 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry and all--Thoughts are nice, but prayers are much appreciated! Wow! I don't want to do that again. Power back on at 6:10 PM CST Sep 21. A quick synopsis-- We left town on Tues Sep 14 and went to Jacksonville. At the time Ivan was aimed somewhat to the east, but the folks from New Orleans had sucked up all the motels in Miss., northern Louisiana. Spent the next several days at a Red Roof Inn (much appreciated by our golden retreiver) glued to the Weather Channel and CNN. Red Roof Inns don't have Fox News Channel. Weather Channel runs more commercials than anybody, and I detest CNN. Red Roof Inns don't have Fox News Channel.Went to get pizza at 5 pm on the 16th. The place had a TV with Fox tuned in, and one of the good guys was standing on a bluff that overlooks Escambia Bay with the decimated I10 bridge in view. That was the first I saw of the damage. Since returning home I have heard that it would take a storm surge of 30 to 40 feet (that is a LOT of water) to do that much damage. If you will recall views you have seen, the trestle (that is what the locals still call it, but it is really a modern concrete bridge) immediately to the north supports the CSX mainline. I have not heard any damage reports to the trestle, but the trackage going around the bay on both sides of the trestle was washed completely clean of ballast. It is currently being rebuilt from the foundation up. Further north, where the Escambia River widens out to become the bay, is four lane US 90, comprised of two two lane bridges over the river proper and earthen fill over lowlands. The surge wiped out the earthen fill, roadway, blacktop, everything from several portions of the east bound lanes, then continued up the river and damaged our power plant. You have seen tv news footage--it is all true and more. There are people living in areas where there was no evacuation requirement with real horror stories about being chased up to their attics by the water, and then fearing the roof would lift off while hearing noises like jets flying over--imbedded tornadoes. We have a large sewage treatment plant near downtown near the edge of the bay; the on duty crew was chased up to the second story of the control building. Every school building in the district has suffered some damage. Fortunately we live about four miles from the water and suffered no flood damage. With my fingers crossed I called my neighbor before leaving Jax and amazingly he answered the phone: no electric, no water, and my house had survived. The only damage is a few broken roof shingles and some fascia trim ripped off. By the time we actually got home on Saturday, water was back on, but it had to be boiled or treated before drinking. And the sewage system was working, sort of. That was a good thing, since my wife wasn't happy with the idea of slit trenches in our back yard. The good stuff: On Saturday, waiting in the 8 mile long parking lot which used to be westbound I10 while we were detoured to US90 at Defuniak Springs, progress was interupted by convoy after convoy of power company and tree company trucks as well as Salvation Army, Red Cross, and FEMA vehicles. Help has just swarmed into the area. Typical of many locations is the closest high school: Nat'l Guard troops up from Tampa handing out bagged ice, bottled water, and MRE's by the case; two drive thru lines, stay in your car just unlatch the trunk or unlock your back doors. Late Monday afternoon I took my stepdaughter by her work since there was no phone there yet; as we left a convoy of 40 power company bucket trucks was rolling by in the left lane. As they blew thru red lights onlookers cheered, waved and blew their horns. Everywhere we have to go, a power truck from somewhere is there. We needed help, and the response has been truly overwhelming. America at its best. I will never take a hot shower for granted again. Now to fire up the Susquehanna Division. Thanks again. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 06:23:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bill: I was not very clear. I was actually referring to the silence, broken only by the siderod clank. Drifting, with the current available sound, is not very prototypical when you hear the exhaust barking. BLI exhaust sound can be somewhat diminished by the dynamic brake function, ( I think it's "F-7"), but that's still too loud. I hope Soundtraxx includes the ability to eliminate the exhaust sound at will. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "Larry Reynolds" ; "Bruce Smith" Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Larry, your ears must be waaay better than mine. Most > steam locomotives make little if any noise when > drifting...the fireboy usually has to crack the blower > to get enough draft to keep the fire burning. ;-) > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > --- Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > > > ... I can hear steam drifting down the hill > > already! > > > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Don Harper Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:56:28 -0500 To: "Greg Johnson" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Return-Path: harperd@tamug.edu X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2004 14:02:38.0280 (UTC) FILETIME=[D17F0C80:01C4A0AC] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg You can't take photos in Penn Station in NYC. I know that for certain, as I was told to stop. You will probably run into the same problems in other major stations as well. The powers that be are really antsy about security problems. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 harperd@tamug.edu On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Greg Johnson wrote: > I will be in Washington on business late next week and I have one day > free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at Washington > Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting hassled, shot at or > arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head up to Harpers > Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those work, I will just > have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B. Kleins. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > Friendswood, TX > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:10:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I can understand the sensitivity, especially in New York, but for further guidance on photographers rights, I suggest the link provided by Al Buchan in a recent TKM: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Harper" To: "Greg Johnson" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography > Greg > > You can't take photos in Penn Station in NYC. I know that for certain, > as I was told to stop. You will probably run into the same problems in > other major stations as well. The powers that be are really antsy > about security problems. > > > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > harperd@tamug.edu > > > > > On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Greg Johnson wrote: > > > I will be in Washington on business late next week and I have one day > > free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at Washington > > Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting hassled, shot at or > > arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head up to Harpers > > Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those work, I will just > > have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B. Kleins. > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg Johnson > > Friendswood, TX > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:25:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSgjvIN8ZhxBv2bT4SPBb0VciL8HgAKPToQ In-Reply-To: <001301c4a08e$34d15230$d5cca4d8@Office> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to the QSI manual (available on -line) the dynamic brake function is F5. But the steam hiss sound is separately controllable with CV 52(CV 49=19), and the dynamic brake function with CV52(CV 49=28). I used to spend my time model RrRing. Now I spend it installing and debugging DCC decoders :-( regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Larry Reynolds Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:23 AM To: Bill Daniels; Bruce Smith Cc: 'PRR-Talk' TALK'' Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Bill: I was not very clear. I was actually referring to the silence, broken only by the siderod clank. Drifting, with the current available sound, is not very prototypical when you hear the exhaust barking. BLI exhaust sound can be somewhat diminished by the dynamic brake function, ( I think it's "F-7"), but that's still too loud. I hope Soundtraxx includes the ability to eliminate the exhaust sound at will. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "Larry Reynolds" ; "Bruce Smith" Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Larry, your ears must be waaay better than mine. Most > steam locomotives make little if any noise when > drifting...the fireboy usually has to crack the blower > to get enough draft to keep the fire burning. ;-) > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > --- Larry Reynolds wrote: > > > > > ... I can hear steam drifting down the hill > > already! > > > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:32:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Bowser GLa hopper project is coming along well. Full test shots=20 reviewed this week confirm project will be delivered in November. This model features a zinc die cast under frame, plastic body with the=20= stand up brake wheel, and Atlas Accumate couplers. Suggested retail price is $13.95 each. Part numbers, road names, paint schemes as follows: #37600=A0=A0 Undecorated #37601=A0=A0 PRR Circle Keystone -12 road numbers #37602=A0=A0 PRR Shadow Keystone - 12 road numbers #37604=A0=A0 Berwind - 3 road numbers #37616=A0=A0 Canadian National Brown Body - 3 road numbers #37634=A0=A0 Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh (BR & P Ry) - 3 road numbers #37635=A0=A0 Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O) - 3 road numbers Eventually all of the roads offered in HO will be done. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:44:28 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg, I'd imagine DC union Station is tight, and I know=20 Baltimore Penn Station is tight. Perryville is a great=20 spot from the station platform. The museum also serves as=20 a museum now so people don't really care as much. I'd=20 suggest printing out the link Al provided through TKM and=20 also take along some examples of previous photography.=20 My Dad was taking pictures of trains crossing the bridge=20 from the park below and was talked to from both local cops=20 and Amtrak cops. Dad fortunately had the Lewistown book=20 with him which includes two of his pictures and they were=20 fine with it then.=20 Kleins has a good selection of Pennsy stuff in right now.=20 I was down on saturday to spend most of my paycheck.=20 Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. On Sep 21, 2004, at 8:46 PM, Greg Johnson wrote: > I will be in Washington on business late next week and I=20 >have one day=20 > free to railfan. Is it still possible to shoot photos at=20 >Washington=20 > Union Station, Perryville, etc.., without getting=20 >hassled, shot at or=20 > arrested? If the NEC isn't a viable choice, I may head=20 >up to Harpers=20 > Ferry or Point of Rocks on the B&O. If none of those=20 >work, I will just=20 > have to take the train to Baltimore and visit M.B.=20 >Kleins. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > Friendswood, TX > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Number of GLAs, was Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:51:56 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 22, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > The Bowser GLa hopper project is coming along well. I would remind folks of the resource that Jerry and I have created for looking at PRR car fleet sizes. This may help you decide how many cases of these to order . http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/topclass/index.html A quick look at the GLA class shows that in 1955, there were 25610 and in 1959 there were 15857 while the H21A numbers for the same years were 1955 - 35258 and 1959 - 24431, meaning that you need about a 2 to 3 ratio of GLA to H21A in both 1955 and 1959 (and theoretically in between ). In 1964, the GLA was no longer in the top 30 classes at all. In addition, by searching for all the hoppers in 1955 and 1959 you can find that in 1955, these two classes made up 90% of the PRR fleet, while in 1959 this was down to 85% (overall hopper numbers were down by around 30%!) and the leased N&W H2s made up about 4% of the fleet... Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:05:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Number of GLAs, was Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 12:51 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > On Sep 22, 2004, at 10:32 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> The Bowser GLa hopper project is coming along well. > > I would remind folks of the resource that Jerry and I have created for > looking at PRR car fleet sizes. This may help you decide how many > cases of these to order . Also worth noting that Bowser has only announced 3 road numbers in Berwind. When these came out in HO they did 12. I know of several people, myself included, that were hoping to order 12 Berwind cars. I have asked Bowser to reconsider. If you want 12, please e-mail Bowser and let them know! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography From: bobsin@nac.net X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com For those venturing into New Jersey, photography remains controversial; NJ Transit this year began requiring a photo permit, and their police enforce this rule. Permits are readily issued, but are normally time- and place-specific. Only after some prodding have they conceded that they cannot enforce anti-photography restrictions on people standing on non-NJT property; and it could very well be that individual police do not understand the distinction, for they had regularly been hassling people well off NJT property with cameras pointed in that direction. PATH has long prohibited photography on its premises. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:14:39 -0400 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:10:17 -0500 From: "Don Harper" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Photography From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry; Do you know what dates these cars will carry? Any dates newer than 1957? E.J. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: EMACGIS@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry; Do you know what dates these cars will carry? Any dates newer than 1957? E.J. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:53:53 +0000 From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:52:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Sep 2004 19:51:05.0992 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F76B880:01C4A0DD] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I already informed the wife that if they produce the S1 to get ready to get out the check book! Sam V ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Given MTH is now joining Lionel in the HO scale locomotive martet, I think > that there is a very good chance that we will be seeing S-1's, S-2's, Q-2's, > and maybe Q-1's in HO scale. These firms have done these engines (at least > the first 3) in O-scale and typically produced unusual engines that have > broad market appeal. > > > Now, where is Varney......... > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:28:44 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker’s parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:28:44 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker’s parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:05:07 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell > > Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel > > Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker’s parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. > Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. > Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. > Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. > Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. > Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions Actually, Bill Bracy and John Brady were let go two Mondays ago. The others were released either Thursday or Friday of last week. Needless to say, there has been great speculation as to why there was such a move. Many of the posts to the OGR (O Gauge Railroading [magazine]) Forum have been centered on the recent $40 million jury verdict issued against Lionel in the MTH lawsuit. The judge has yet to finalize the verdict. It should be noted that Bracy was not at Lionel's helm at the time the theft of MTH's engine diagrams/research. And remember there is an upcoming Union Pacific lawsuit against Lionel for not following UP's licensing procedures. The majority of the rest of the posts spoke about the direction Lionel has been taking and the return on the money invested. Many have said that they expect Lionel to shift from the higher end O Gauge scale market back to the traditional postwar sized O-27 train sets (and HO) which also fuel the inclusion of younger enthusiasts. Jerry Calabrese was brought in due to his expertise/knowledge in 'selling' his products to the youth market and evidently brought his own team with him. That is why the product/marketing people were let go. Others speculated that perhaps Wellspring made a change due to the MTH and/or UP money pressures; the possible lack of orders for the upcoming holiday season or just to shift gears seeing the need to increase the return on their investment (they paid $20 million for 80% of Lionel; the other 20% is owned by Neil Young). And I won't even touch on the possibility of what could happen with MTH. John Brady, Todd Wagner, Eric Shreffler and Julie Laird were among the best and the brightest at Lionel. Todd, in particular, was extremely receptive to correcting any mistake concerning our favorite railroad (along with others). Wellspring has yet to issue a statement as the change in leadership. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 12:6:1445370215 X-MAIL-INFO:4e8451191025cd0551bd051059e5e5f510e9e5d98dadbde93100f0e9210d0d09e9810db124710081 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: jTmkjNShdRGYa700blOSW/reLluNZfiS1HoMuaUND8KNW5IFEJzrwxpeMw3SYIY8 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey ....since they already made / make it.................how about a Centipede in "HO" Sorry " Steam guy's " but thats what I'd absolutely love to see . I don't think I'm the only one who who shell out the busssssssssssssscks for one . I already have one in " O " which could use a little brother ! Thanks , Mike Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net E-bay : iron*mah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Andrews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > Given MTH is now joining Lionel in the HO scale locomotive martet, I think > that there is a very good chance that we will be seeing S-1's, S-2's, Q-2's, > and maybe Q-1's in HO scale. These firms have done these engines (at least > the first 3) in O-scale and typically produced unusual engines that have > broad market appeal. > > > Now, where is Varney......... > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:14:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Question on GLa Trucks From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com With the advent of Atlas couplers on the new N scale GLa's from Bowser, numerous people have asked what truck will be on the new car. I poised the question to Bowser and this is their response... On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 07:57 AM, Lee English wrote: > the truck will be just like the HO truck side frame (70ton friction > bearing) > with truck mounted couplers (Accumate) > > The rapido trucks will be available as an after market item. > > I plan to change all our cars over eventually. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:49:06 +0000 >From: "michael hmel" >Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 >From: "Ted Andrews" >Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:49:06 +0000 >From: "michael hmel" >Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 >From: "Ted Andrews" >Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:51:01 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Guyz, I would love to have two A-A sets of Centipedes to run on=20 my planned Northern Central Layout. 5-stripes with the=20 Gotham Limited in tow. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Ted Andrews" wrote: A Centipede would be great too. That engine, in addition=20 to the U25C, are one of the few notable holdouts that have=20 not been produced in plastic. (The RS-27's and RSD-7's=20 have been announced for next year) A Centipede, while not delivered to too many RR's, would=20 have broader market appeal (non Pennsy modelers) Ted >From: "michael hmel" >To: "PRR-Talk list" >Subject: [PRR] New MTH HO....... >Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:48:57 -0400 > >Hey ....since they already made / make=20 >it.................how about a >Centipede in "HO" >Sorry " Steam guy's " but thats what I'd absolutely love=20 >to see . >I don't think I'm the only one who who shell out the=20 >busssssssssssssscks for >one . I already have one in " O " which could use a little=20 >brother ! >Thanks , >Mike >Member : TCA , PRRT&HS >Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk > Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading >E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net >E-bay : iron*mah > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ted Andrews" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:53 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 > > > > Given MTH is now joining Lionel in the HO scale=20 >locomotive martet, I=20 >think > > that there is a very good chance that we will be seeing=20 >S-1's, S-2's, >Q-2's, > > and maybe Q-1's in HO scale. These firms have done=20 >these engines (at=20 >least > > the first 3) in O-scale and typically produced unusual=20 >engines that have > > broad market appeal. > > > > > > Now, where is Varney......... > > > > > >=20 >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit=20 >http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:02:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO....... From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 11:51 AM, John Frantz wrote: > I would love to have two A-A sets of Centipedes to run on my planned > Northern Central Layout. 5-stripes with the Gotham Limited in tow. > Northern Central... Gotham Limited... John, you might want to do a little research before you break ground on your layout. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk' TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:24:52 -0500 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 23, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > A Centipede would be great too. That engine, in addition to the U25C, > are one of the few notable holdouts that have not been produced in > plastic. (The RS-27's and RSD-7's have been announced for next year) > > A Centipede, while not delivered to too many RR's, would have broader > market appeal (non Pennsy modelers) Yeah, sure, Seaboard and NdeM should add, what, a couple dozen models to sales? Actually though, I agree with Ted that this model would have much wider appeal. They are high on "Lionel Factor", which means lots of sales to collectors and folks who just want one because its "cool". While huge, their multi-truck articulation would allow fairly tight radii, unlike the PRR S1. To me, some of the top "Lionel Factor" locos I would expect to be produced are: PRR S2 turbine PRR centipede Milwaukee bi-polar electric Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Re: Question on GLa Trucks Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:03:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com And then some of us will have to remove them to substitute truck mounted Micro-Trains couplers. 8<( I have 7 inch radius curves and 250 cars. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Steitz" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [PRR-n_scale] Re: Question on GLa Trucks > All: > > It's a pity that Bowser is following the herd with truck mounted couplers. > > One of the best improvements that our HO brethren have with their rolling > stock (including every piece the Bowser HO line) is body mounted couplers. > Body mounts allow easier and smoother backing of consists, essential for > road or yard switching. Truck mounted couplers remain toy-like, a > blemish > on an otherwise fine model. > > Maybe one day, the manufacturers will get it right........ > > John Steitz > Alexandria, VA > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Jerry Britton > Reply-To: PRR-n_scale@yahoogroups.com > To: PRR-n_scale > CC: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR-n_scale] Re: Question on GLa Trucks > Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:14:36 -0400 > > With the advent of Atlas couplers on the new N scale GLa's from Bowser, > numerous people have asked what truck will be on the new car. I poised > the question to Bowser and this is their response... > > On Thursday, September 23, 2004, at 07:57 AM, Lee English wrote: > > > the truck will be just like the HO truck side frame (70ton friction > > bearing) > > with truck mounted couplers (Accumate) > > > > The rapido trucks will be available as an after market item. > > > > I plan to change all our cars over eventually. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FaCslB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-n_scale-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:09:42 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F82E9@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] New MTH HO....... thread-index: AcShfiT1pkiw1YwPTD26fgCjzIaDdAAJNLRg From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Derrick J Brashear" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I happen to own a PRR U-25c in HO plastic made by LifeLike many years ago. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Derrick J Brashear Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 11:00 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Ted Andrews wrote: > A Centipede would be great too. That engine, in addition to the U25C,=20 > are one > of the few notable holdouts that have not been produced in plastic. The AHM/Rivarossi version may be crude, but it's definitely plastic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:26:22 -0400 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] U25C Clarification Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:51:29 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] U25C Clarification Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:51:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:28:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] P50 Coach Class Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:40:41 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Listers, What were the origins of the P50 coach class? Also, how=20 many were ever made and i'm guessing they were used in=20 local service mostly? TIA -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops York, PA Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:35:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers Hvywt Pullman Coach X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I haven't found it listed anywhere. Did the Pennsy have any of the Pullman paired window coaches? My suspicions are that the Pennsy was the Pennsy and did not have any. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:51:39 -0400 From: "director " Subject: [PRR] Railfest From: Tucson3985@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:30:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] changes at Lionel X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Maybe the changes have more to due with the recent lawsuit victory obtained by MTH against Lionel and/or the pending lawsuit by Union Pacific against Lionel which alleges trademark violations. Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears that Lionel walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for one think UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it appears they did. The facts of the MTH--Lionel suit are hazy, but I believe it involves Lionel's Korean manufacturer's alleged copying of MTH designs. Without seeing the documents, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to how that occurred and whether Lionel USA officials were held to be responsible in some way. But if I were the investor owners of Lionel, I might have some concern about the abilities of the management team that was on watch when these lawsuits came about... Ivan Abrams (and yes, I'm a lawyer, but be kind--someone had to do it and my number was picked...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tucson3985@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:30:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] changes at Lionel X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Maybe the changes have more to due with the recent lawsuit victory obtained by MTH against Lionel and/or the pending lawsuit by Union Pacific against Lionel which alleges trademark violations. Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears that Lionel walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for one think UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it appears they did. The facts of the MTH--Lionel suit are hazy, but I believe it involves Lionel's Korean manufacturer's alleged copying of MTH designs. Without seeing the documents, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to how that occurred and whether Lionel USA officials were held to be responsible in some way. But if I were the investor owners of Lionel, I might have some concern about the abilities of the management team that was on watch when these lawsuits came about... Ivan Abrams (and yes, I'm a lawyer, but be kind--someone had to do it and my number was picked...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: [PRR] Last PV to Pittsburgh Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:33:52 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com With the change to the Winter timetable the Pennsylvanian will cease = operating between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. If it returns in the = spring of '05 it will be a late afternoon departure from Philly.=20 SO....there will be one last PV round trip between Philly and P'burg on = the weekend of October 23, and 24th, with the Warrior Ridge and the = Pennsylvania 120. Limited reserved seating only. Everyone gets to spend = some time on the 120. On the past two trips everyone had a great time. = This very well may be IT!=20 Pittsburgh will no longer be a PV destination. For further information charliehoran@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BM70M question Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:14:31 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was = primarily or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used = significantly for checked baggage or express? I presume the door was = then locked to the RPO section.=20 If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member = (from the RPO crew, I mean)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] BM70M question Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:14:31 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was = primarily or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used = significantly for checked baggage or express? I presume the door was = then locked to the RPO section.=20 If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member = (from the RPO crew, I mean)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Pandelios" Subject: [PRR] RE: Lionel's Legal Troubles Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 12:32:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5855.52301@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [141.158.176.200] at Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:32:26 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, I think Lionel's legal issues are mostly of their own making, particularly in regard to their use of Korea Brass castings of dubious origins. Within the past two weeks, the 3-rail component of the O Gauge Railroading Forum (www.ogaugerr.com) has reported that a major housekeeping exercise has taken place at Lionel. The president, vice-president, and a number of marketing folks were let go very suddenly. This may have been previously reported here, if so I apologize. I have not kept up to date with this list. Whether this development is related to the MTH lawsuit (the actions that sparked the suit happened before this management team took over), is unknown and cause for speculation. George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:46:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RPO's on mail trains? From: Frederick Ripley From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Atlas Trainmasters Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:28:04 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gentlemen: I picked up two Atlas Trainmasters today. First, let me say that they = are, in my opinion, VERY beautiful locomotives. They run smooth and the = sound is great. I did, however, encounter a problem that I thought I'd = pass along. I was speaking with Ken McCorry, before I ran these locomotives, and he = told me that he and a friend of his were test running these engines and = noticed that after a little bit of time, they would hesitate, stop, = start, etcetera. They discovered that the wheels had a residue that = would easily pick up dust/dirt from the tracks and cause an electrical = contact problem. After giving the wheels a good cleaning, the problem = was fixed. =20 I too experienced the identical problem. The engines ran fine for about = 50 feet, or so, and then developed the characteristics that Ken warned = me about. So, I cleaned the wheels and the problem was no more. = Until,.....the locomotive ran another fifty feet and the problem came = back. So, I cleaned the wheels again. I cleaned the wheels five times = and the problem kept returning. Now, I don't claim to keep my track = squeaky clean, but the track is usually clean enough to not cause this = kind of trouble. I have many locomotives, including steam and diesel = Broadway Limited models and have never experienced this with any of = them. I have found this sort of a thing with Athearn Genesis and = Stewart AS616's. I solved the problem with these locomotives by = hardwiring them as MU'd locos and this seemed to fix the trouble. = However, I do no want to hard wire the TM's since I will, on occasion, = run them as single units. Finally, I put some Wahl hair clipper oil on the rails, (something that = I haven't done for some time), and the problem went away. I've run the = engines quite a bit since applying the oil and the problem has not = returned. =20 Larry Reynolds I ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ktolliver@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Oakwood yard Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:49:59 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, My first post to the group and it's a question. I am working as a conductor on the NS out of Oakwood Yard south of Detroit and while switching the tri-level docks on Saturday something got my curiosity up. I know Oakwood was once upon a time a Wabash yard and was told that the Conrail line that skirts thru there and up onto the Lincoln Secondary was once PRR. On the highway overpass going over Schaefer Rd the handrail stanchions look like Train phone supports with pipe thru them to form the guardrails and was wondering if these are a leftover legacy from the PRR? Thanks for any input on this one Keith T ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ktolliver@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] Oakwood yard Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:49:59 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello all, My first post to the group and it's a question. I am working as a conductor on the NS out of Oakwood Yard south of Detroit and while switching the tri-level docks on Saturday something got my curiosity up. I know Oakwood was once upon a time a Wabash yard and was told that the Conrail line that skirts thru there and up onto the Lincoln Secondary was once PRR. On the highway overpass going over Schaefer Rd the handrail stanchions look like Train phone supports with pipe thru them to form the guardrails and was wondering if these are a leftover legacy from the PRR? Thanks for any input on this one Keith T ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:29:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very attractive new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the class number? I am hopeful some of our gondola experts can help me out with this information. Many thanks in advance. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:29:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very attractive new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the class number? I am hopeful some of our gondola experts can help me out with this information. Many thanks in advance. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? (fwd) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:33:40 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lee Rainey asked: There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very attractive new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the class number? PRR Class G24, 750 cars total allocated to Lines West, GR&I, and LIRR in 1919: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24 All cars rebuilt with steel sides 1930-1937. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:59:47 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 >From: "Ed Workman" >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. UP is well within their rights to prevent someone else -------------- Original message from Tom Hayden : -------------- > I agree that Lionel (and Athearn) are to be commended for their stance on > UP. And I think they will win. > > It's too bad that Lionel has messed up their legal position by their > illegal and unfair dealings regarding MTH, but their UP position is righteous. > > Clearly if UP wins it will be a sad day for all railroad fans and modelers, > including PRR types. It's my understanding that the PRR logos, etc are NOT > likely to ever be an issue, but most PRR modelers also run other roads' > equipment. > > Tom Hayden > > > >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 > >From: "Ed Workman" > >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 > > > >At 10:10 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote: > > >Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears that > > Lionel > > >walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for one > > think > > >UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have the right > > >to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to think that > > >supposedly > > >responsible corporate managers--at Lionel--would subject their company to > > >liability in the manner it appears they did. > > > > > >See Mainline Modeler for an alternative opinion re: UP license > >The main problem with our legal system is that it is used to extort by > >threat of protracted litigation. > >Your suggestion that Lionel management made the wrong decision makes you > >a nominee for the Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize. > >It boggles MY mind that we don't take back our country from the lawyers... > >I suppose too many folks look at a chance to sue/extort similar "winning > >the lottery". > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >End of PRR-Talk Digest > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > >Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by MessageLabs. > >For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by MessageLabs. For > more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > _____________________________________________________________________________ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:13:42 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSkqwMBhhmSar8pSwS50HUN8TsO2gAAQ3Tg In-reply-to: <092720041549.1654.41583693000387400000067621587667559D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com To Scotch Tape and Xerox you can add "Band-Aid", "Jell-O", "Formica", and "Cellophane". Coca-Cola sends spies to restaurants and aboard airlines to ask for a "Coke". If they get served Pepsi without being first told they are not getting Coke, they sue! That said, the UP case is different in several ways. First the defendants have been using the names for many decades without any attempt by UP to stop them (until now). Second, the defendants are not selling a competing product and claiming to be UP. Third, the defendants use of the name, in no way threatens to make the name generic. No one will every say "UP" when they mean "railroad" just because Lionel made models of their equipment. regards, Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:50 AM To: Tom Hayden; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. UP is well within their rights to prevent s! omeone else -------------- Original message from Tom Hayden : -------------- > I agree that Lionel (and Athearn) are to be commended for their stance > on UP. And I think they will win. > > It's too bad that Lionel has messed up their legal position by their > illegal and unfair dealings regarding MTH, but their UP position is righteous. > > Clearly if UP wins it will be a sad day for all railroad fans and > modelers, including PRR types. It's my understanding that the PRR > logos, etc are NOT likely to ever be an issue, but most PRR modelers also run other roads' > equipment. > > Tom Hayden > > > >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 > >From: "Ed Workman" > >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 > > > >At 10:10 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote: > > >Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears > > >that > > Lionel > > >walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for > > >one > > think > > >UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have > > >the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to > > >think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at > > >Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it > > >appears they did. > > > > > >See Mainline Modeler for an alternative opinion re: UP license The > >main problem with our legal system is that it is used to extort by > >threat of protracted litigation. > >Your suggestion that Lionel management made the wrong decision makes > >you a nominee for the Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize. > >It boggles MY mind that we don't take back our country from the lawyers... > >I suppose too many folks look at a chance to sue/extort similar > >"winning the lottery". > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > >End of PRR-Talk Digest > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > >MessageLabs. > >For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > MessageLabs. For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:51:30 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 27, 2004, at 10:49 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Sorry, that is not correct. None of these companies has "allowed" their trademarks to be genericized for "good will". Typically if it has occurred (and it has not for Xerox) then it has happened from a failure of diligence on the part of the owner of the trademark. From the Xerox web site: "The Xerox Trademark Xerox is a famous trademark and trade name. Xerox as a trademark is properly used only as a brand name to identify the company's products and services. The Xerox trademark should always be used as a proper adjective followed by the generic name of the product: e.g., Xerox printer. The Xerox trademark should never be used as a verb. The trade name Xerox is an abbreviation for the company's full legal name: Xerox Corporation." Xerox aggressively protects their name. If they did not, then anyone WOULD be able to introduce a XEROX copier, and that would mean the company had completely lost the ability for customers to distinguish its product... and that would be a very dumb move (fatal too). On the subject of Uncle Pete's RR, I would suggest supporting folks like Al Westerfield, and Bob Hundeman (Mainline Modeler), and let folks like Terry Thompson (editor of MR, who basically caved 100% to UP) know that their failure to support the hobby has been noticed. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:14:15 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8304@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits thread-index: AcSkqwMBhhmSar8pSwS50HUN8TsO2gAAQ3TgAAb6uhA= From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Andy Miller" , , "Tom Hayden" , "PRR-Talk" Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey! We KLEENEX fans feel left out of this discussion! -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Andy Miller Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 12:14 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; 'Tom Hayden'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits To Scotch Tape and Xerox you can add "Band-Aid", "Jell-O", "Formica", and "Cellophane". Coca-Cola sends spies to restaurants and aboard airlines to ask for a "Coke". If they get served Pepsi without being first told they are not getting Coke, they sue! That said, the UP case is different in several ways. First the defendants have been using the names for many decades without any attempt by UP to stop them (until now). Second, the defendants are not selling a competing product and claiming to be UP. Third, the defendants use of the name, in no way threatens to make the name generic. No one will every say "UP" when they mean "railroad" just because Lionel made models of their equipment. regards, =20 Andy Miller The MITRE Corp -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 11:50 AM To: Tom Hayden; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. UP is well within their rights to prevent s! omeone else -------------- Original message from Tom Hayden : --------------=20 > I agree that Lionel (and Athearn) are to be commended for their stance > on UP. And I think they will win. >=20 > It's too bad that Lionel has messed up their legal position by their > illegal and unfair dealings regarding MTH, but their UP position is righteous. >=20 > Clearly if UP wins it will be a sad day for all railroad fans and > modelers, including PRR types. It's my understanding that the PRR=20 > logos, etc are NOT likely to ever be an issue, but most PRR modelers also run other roads' > equipment. >=20 > Tom Hayden >=20 >=20 > >Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/25/04 > >From: "Ed Workman" > >Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:36:54 -0700 > >=20 > >At 10:10 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote: > > >Though we may regard UP as a Scrooge-like corporation, it appears > > >that > > Lionel > > >walked into the quicksand by failing to license its products. I for > > >one > > think > > >UP's attitude about trademark protection is absurd, but they have > > >the right to behave that way if they choose. It boggles the mind to > > >think that supposedly responsible corporate managers--at=20 > > >Lionel--would subject their company to liability in the manner it=20 > > >appears they did. > >=20 > >=20 > >See Mainline Modeler for an alternative opinion re: UP license The > >main problem with our legal system is that it is used to extort by=20 > >threat of protracted litigation. > >Your suggestion that Lionel management made the wrong decision makes=20 > >you a nominee for the Neville Chamberlain Peace Prize. > >It boggles MY mind that we don't take back our country from the lawyers...=20 > >I suppose too many folks look at a chance to sue/extort similar > >"winning the lottery". > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >=20 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >=20 > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > >MessageLabs. > >For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com=20 > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >________ >=20 >=20 > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ Scanned by IBM Email Security Management Services powered by > MessageLabs. For more information please visit http://www.ers.ibm.com=20 > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:24:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel- Lawsuits From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You guys knew it was coming, right? ;-) Okay, let's get back to "reasonable" Pennsy topics. Thanks. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Penn Station fire today Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:12:22 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fire Halts All Train Service At Penn Station SEPTEMBER 27TH, 2004 All entrances and train service to and from Penn Station has been shut down due to power problems caused by a fire in a nearby tunnel. All Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road and New Jersey Transit trains are affected. The fire broke out in a tunnel at 30th Street and First Avenue at about 1 p.m., knocking out power to track signals. It is unclear when regular service will resume. In the meantime, the LIRR says its tickets are being honored on area subways until the problem is fixed. "We have lost signal power, so LIRR customers and their tickets are being honored on the subway at Jamaica, [Queens], Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn and Penn Station itself, as well as Woodside, [Queens], for people traveling on the Port Washington branch,” said LIRR spokesman Brian Dolan. PATH trains between New Jersey and Manhattan are also accepting New Jersey Transit tickets. New Jersey Transit says its North Jersey Coastline and Northeast Corridor trains are ending and beginning service at Newark, and Midtown Direct service has been diverted to Hoboken. For more information on New Jersey Transit, call 1-800-772-2222 for updates. Transit officials are recommending commuters take the subway, PATH trains or ferries to get in and out of Manhattan. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:30:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:54:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO's on mail trains? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Checking some old actual consists from the 60s. Train # 30 "THE SPIRIT OF ST LOUIS" carried a STL-HAR RPO, #22 shows 2RPOs PGH-NYP on 6-17-63,#18 showed 2PGH-NYP RPOs on the same date.#13 had a NYP- PGH car on12-5-63, 2nd 32 on 1-1`-63 had a PGH-NYP car. I have seen photos of Train # 4 departing The Penn Texas departing St Louis with RPOs but not sure how far they went. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:24:09 -0500 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I received this last Friday. Charles Blardone has outdone himself, if = that is possible. This is truly a remarkable document. IMNSHO it = would be useful for all modelers, not just Pennsy. His description of = the details, the airhorns, the inductive radio system, the alternative = pilots, freight and passenger, and the phase differences is a reference = with no equal that I have seen.=20 Excuse my gushing but this is a monumental work. Well done, Charles. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:31:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Credit should go to Jack Consoli......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:11:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My sincere and public apologies to Jack. And thanks and congratulations to him for this historical masterpiece. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Bob Zoeller'" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:02 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 > Bob: > > Jack Consoli wrote the article not Chuck. > > Al > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob > Zoeller > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:24 PM > To: PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 > > > I received this last Friday. Charles Blardone has outdone himself, if > that is possible. This is truly a remarkable document. IMNSHO it > would be useful for all modelers, not just Pennsy. His description of > the details, the airhorns, the inductive radio system, the alternative > pilots, freight and passenger, and the phase differences is a reference > with no equal that I have seen. > > Excuse my gushing but this is a monumental work. Well done, Charles. > > Bob Zoeller > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:31:31 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <003601c4a511$342d2f20$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcSlEbVsoK0fJ1pQRqaO3vvUtQTQAgAAhRiA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com OK, I give up. What's an "anticlimber?" (As referenced in the great F unit article.) Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:06:55 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to Douglas, Jerry, and the List: An anticlimber is a horizontal steel rib or series of parallel steel ribs mounted at the ends of a locomotive or other propelled-vehicle frame, just above the pilot and coupler. Typically these were and are mounted on diesel and electric locomotives and electric traction cars (trolley cars and interurbans). Their purpose is to minimize the hazard to crews in the event of a catastrophic head-on collision. The horizontal ribs are intended to do what the name implies, prevent the climbing of one unit into, or over, another, by confining and redirecting the energy of the respective forward-traveling vehicles. The origin of this device is rooted in the traction industry, in the aftermath of collisions between wooden-bodied cars that telescoped, causing pain, injury, and death to crew and passengers. Today, the anticlimber is a single bar of steel (as in current road-locomotive construction) but often in the past it was a series of rounded parallel ribs to provide multiple-angle protection for corbodies having rounded ends such as F-units and interurban cars). Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote: >OK, I give up. What's an "anticlimber?" (As referenced in the great F unit >article.) > >Thanks. > >Doug Kirkpatrick >Medford, OR > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPO's in 15' increments... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 1:14:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: BM70M question > From: "Bob Zoeller" > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:14:31 -0500 > > These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily > or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used significantly for > checked baggage or express? I presume the door was then locked to the RPO > section. > > If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member > (from the RPO crew, I mean)? > > Bob Zoeller > I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO compartments in those cars? OK, experts -- how'd I do? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] The PRR in Detroit X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 1:14:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: [PRR] Oakwood yard > From: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:49:59 +0000 > > Hello all, > My first post to the group and it's a question. I am working as a conductor > on the NS out of Oakwood Yard south of Detroit and while switching the > tri-level docks on Saturday something got my curiosity up. I know Oakwood was once > upon a time a Wabash yard and was told that the Conrail line that skirts > thru there and up onto the Lincoln Secondary was once PRR. On the highway > overpass going over Schaefer Rd the handrail stanchions look like Train phone > supports with pipe thru them to form the guardrails and was wondering if these are > a leftover legacy from the PRR? > Thanks for any input on this one > Keith T > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Oakwood yard > From: "Bill Daniels" > Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:12 -0700 (PDT) > > Well, the PRR entered Detroit up from Toledo on a > single track line that more or less paralleled the > former DT&I line. I think the PRR terminated at > Oakwood, but once did go to the former Fort St. Depot > (via trackage rights on the Wabash...If I remember > correctly. (Its been a VERY long time since I was last > in Detroit). I also know the PRR was a partner in the > Union Belt, which had a year off of Joy and went up > past Grand River to Schaffer and Lyndon, and then > north (I once lived in the neighborhood). > > I have no idea of what's left up there... > > > ===== > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ I believe the PRR freights terminated at Lincoln Park yard, which lay in a vee with the east end of WAB's Oakwood. I'm working mostly from the SPV atlas (GLE page 37), but did visit Lincoln Park once on a Sunday with nobody around to run me off. Seems to me I noticed some PRR-standard handrails on an overpass at one end of the yard, but I have no idea what street that was. Might have been the Schaefer Road you mention. I do not understand the phrase "the Union Belt, which had a year off of Joy". I see the Union Belt on the map north and also east of Delray Tower; it looks like the eastern line leads to Fort Street Union Depot. However, I can find no locations named Joy, Grand River, Schaffer, or Lyndon in the SPV map index. Are these Detroit streets, or are they the names of neighborhoods? Apropos of nothing, until 3 years ago my post office was Lyndon KY (although we used Louisville for an address). Believe there is also a Lyndon Ohio somewhere. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:50 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] The PRR in Detroit I believe the PRR freights terminated at Lincoln Park yard, which lay in a vee with the east end of WAB's Oakwood. I'm working mostly from the SPV atlas (GLE page 37), but did visit Lincoln Park once on a Sunday with nobody around to run me off. Seems to me I noticed some PRR-standard handrails on an overpass at one end of the yard, but I have no idea what street that was. Might have been the Schaefer Road you mention. I do not understand the phrase "the Union Belt, which had a year off of Joy". I see the Union Belt on the map north and also east of Delray Tower; it looks like the eastern line leads to Fort Street Union Depot. However, I can find no locations named Joy, Grand River, Schaffer, or Lyndon in the SPV map index. Are these Detroit streets, or are they the names of neighborhoods? Apropos of nothing, until 3 years ago my post office was Lyndon KY (although we used Louisville for an address). Believe there is also a Lyndon Ohio somewhere. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] RPO's in 15' increments... PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: BM70M question > These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily > or always used for working mail storage. I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO compartments in those cars? OK, experts -- how'd I do? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:30:34 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] RPO's in 15' increments... PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: BM70M question > These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily > or always used for working mail storage. I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO compartments in those cars? OK, experts -- how'd I do? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:55:54 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8305@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 thread-index: AcSlEbVsoK0fJ1pQRqaO3vvUtQTQAgAAhRiAABQ/PrA= From: "Bill Volkmer" To: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The anti-climber derives its origin from the trolley car days when a large ribbed steel bumper was applied to the end sill. This prevented one car from climbing over the other in a low speed head on collision where one car would slice through the other and kill a lot of people.=20 After diesels came in the same principle was applied. Bill Volkmer Trolley enthusiast extraordinaire. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Kirkpatrick Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:32 AM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone F units Part 1 OK, I give up. What's an "anticlimber?" (As referenced in the great F unit article.) Thanks. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:17:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 > > There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into > consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting > area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed > "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed > their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a > generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of > dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something > different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar > name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP > claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are > grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to > have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to > avoid the future cost. 1. Good Will also includes product reputation and reliability, customer relationship histories, market share, and a bunch of other intangibles. 2. GM owns the Corvette trademark. But that does not mean they have their hand out to every toy company that makes a toy or model Corvette. Whether this is a legal boundary, or just good sense (the toys are free advertising, thus worth millions to a car company), I do not know. But it IS a normal and prevailing business practice. 3. When UP decides to asks you to pay a license fee to run model equipment with their trademarks at public shows, can you afford a lawyer to argue that you should have grandfather rights? 4. Silly or trivial examples perhaps, but in legal theory, we have our government grant trademark rights to individuals/companies/corporations because this practice is in the public interest, and promotes fair business practices. OTOH, it grates me that UP was one of the biggest land grant railroads in history. After my ancestors' interest (as citizens of the US) in who knows how much public lands were granted to UP (and its components) to get it going, now UP wants to make war on my pocketbook. UP may have a strong legal position -- with their bank of lawyers, one would hope so. Nevertheless, we should be asking (and asking our courts) if this is behavior that is in the public interest. I for one believe it is not. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:00:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com All, Please see my question below on proper color for P70 coach steps in the mid-50s. Jerry suggested I forward it to the list. Anyone besides me old enough to remember them (kinda)? Tom Riggs > > > I am detailing some N scale Lima coaches in Pennsy mid-50s style, with > > diaphragms, new decals, pin-head roof vents, etc. For the > > steps--using Gold > > Medal details--I have seen these in Tuscan red but it seems more > > likely that > > they were black. (This also fits my memory from being about 10 during > > that > > era.) Which is accurate? > > Not sure. I wasn't old enough to have seen them!!! Color photos are > rare. Try posing this question to the PRR-talk list. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:17:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] What does a trademark right really mean? In a message dated 9/27/04 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 > > There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into > consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting > area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed > "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed > their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a > generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of > dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something > different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar > name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP > claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are > grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to > have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to > avoid the future cost. 1. Good Will also includes product reputation and reliability, customer relationship histories, market share, and a bunch of other intangibles. 2. GM owns the Corvette trademark. But that does not mean they have their hand out to every toy company that makes a toy or model Corvette. Whether this is a legal boundary, or just good sense (the toys are free advertising, thus worth millions to a car company), I do not know. But it IS a normal and prevailing business practice. 3. When UP decides to asks you to pay a license fee to run model equipment with their trademarks at public shows, can you afford a lawyer to argue that you should have grandfather rights? 4. Silly or trivial examples perhaps, but in legal theory, we have our government grant trademark rights to individuals/companies/corporations because this practice is in the public interest, and promotes fair business practices. OTOH, it grates me that UP was one of the biggest land grant railroads in history. After my ancestors' interest (as citizens of the US) in who knows how much public lands were granted to UP (and its components) to get it going, now UP wants to make war on my pocketbook. UP may have a strong legal position -- with their bank of lawyers, one would hope so. Nevertheless, we should be asking (and asking our courts) if this is behavior that is in the public interest. I for one believe it is not. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:17:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] What does a trademark right really mean? In a message dated 9/27/04 7:00:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:49:40 +0000 > > There is another side to the problem that we as modelers do not take into > consideration. Company names and product names are included in an accounting > area known as Good Will. This can amount to millions of dollars. 3M allowed > "Scotch Tape" to become a generic name for celophane tape. Xerox allowed > their name to become the generic name for copiers. Suppose Corvette became a > generic name for a sports car. What would this cost GM? No doubt millions of > dollars and the public mental image when hearing Corvette would be something > different. That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar > name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP > claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are > grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to > have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to > avoid the future cost. 1. Good Will also includes product reputation and reliability, customer relationship histories, market share, and a bunch of other intangibles. 2. GM owns the Corvette trademark. But that does not mean they have their hand out to every toy company that makes a toy or model Corvette. Whether this is a legal boundary, or just good sense (the toys are free advertising, thus worth millions to a car company), I do not know. But it IS a normal and prevailing business practice. 3. When UP decides to asks you to pay a license fee to run model equipment with their trademarks at public shows, can you afford a lawyer to argue that you should have grandfather rights? 4. Silly or trivial examples perhaps, but in legal theory, we have our government grant trademark rights to individuals/companies/corporations because this practice is in the public interest, and promotes fair business practices. OTOH, it grates me that UP was one of the biggest land grant railroads in history. After my ancestors' interest (as citizens of the US) in who knows how much public lands were granted to UP (and its components) to get it going, now UP wants to make war on my pocketbook. UP may have a strong legal position -- with their bank of lawyers, one would hope so. Nevertheless, we should be asking (and asking our courts) if this is behavior that is in the public interest. I for one believe it is not. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Website Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:05:00 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sometime during this past weekend the Society's website host, US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and in the process it appears they obliterated it. Webmaster Steve Agostini and I are in the process of trying to get things back to normal but your indulgence is requested, as it may take awhile. We'll keep you all posted. In the meantime if you wish to use our e-Store you may access it directly from: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html Some of you may receive multiple copies of this message for which I apologize. However, we are attempting to broadcast it to the the widest possible audience of the PRR community. Thanx. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:13:14 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS web site X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi everyone, is there some kind of problem with the PRR historical site? = I have been trying to access it since approx. 5:30 pm (est) with no suc= cess. Thanks Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:13:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy = postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment = Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus = 5251. There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking = for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume = branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one = car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:13:54 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy = postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment = Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus = 5251. There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking = for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume = branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one = car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:22:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <001301c4a5a6$90a800a0$034aea42@ij.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2742.200 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: proper color for P70 coach steps in the mid-50s. The PRRT&HS Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book (p. 35) states that since mid-1938 the P70 step treads and vestibule floor were black. Prior to that they were olive. This book is available at the e-Store web site: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html It's the most authoritative source on painting PRR passenger equipment. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:05:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS Website Sometime during this past weekend the Society's website host, US LEC of Pennsylvania Inc., decommissioned some of it's older equipment. Unfortunately our website was resident on this equipment and in the process it appears they obliterated it. Webmaster Steve Agostini and I are in the process of trying to get things back to normal but your indulgence is requested, as it may take awhile. We'll keep you all posted. In the meantime if you wish to use our e-Store you may access it directly from: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html Some of you may receive multiple copies of this message for which I apologize. However, we are attempting to broadcast it to the the widest possible audience of the PRR community. Thanx. Al Buchan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Frank, I think one of the PBM70's was used on the Octoro Branch on the "Mushroom" train. Custom Brass is the only one who made the car in HO Scale. It was part of a 2 car set (P70-PBM70). I managed to find one from a breakup set. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:12:42 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002301c4a5b0$d3996890$714956d8@FBRUA> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 6b73c4bfaee5d95e1a2467d70233b1a70a9da525759e265423a3bd15aac78453f9767002a601c342a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.247.217.84 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Frank: I have an interesting photo of a PBM70 as the last car of a 6-car mail = and express train under the wires at Elizabeth and pulled by a steam loco (I assume a K4). Unfortunately this is in an out-of-print 1949 book called "Railroads of New York." This car is also readily available in N scale made by Lima and Model = Power. You can regularly see these in stores or on Ebay. Doug Nelson. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Varieties Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:14 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment = Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus 5251. = There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume = branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:19:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I'm not as familiar with the Eastern branch lines, but I seem to remember seeing a photo of one on one of the milk trains. Walthers offered a similar car in its old kit line, but that was a Soo Line prototype, I believe. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Thus there are several rather tight wedgie shots in the Philly Chapter's > reprint of the Highline on the Octoraro Branch. Another was seen on the > New Holland branch. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:16:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Someone on PRR-Talk wrote and excuse me as their name escapes me now... That is why companies sue when someone tries to use a similar name or logo designed to fool the public. I think Lionel could fight UP claiming they had never enforced this before and take a stance they are grandfathered but at what cost? I guess the moral of the story is if you really want to have UP equipment buy enough decals to meet your needs and make your own to avoid the future cost. You all know that I have taken a hard stand against the Union Pacific Railroad regarding the way they have attempted to intimidate the industry regarding their Brand name ... as Dick Davidson also like to refer to the Union Pacific as a "FRANCHISE" and did so recently at the Pacific Northwest Association of Rail Shippers conference I just attended. A franchise, so let's all buy in... NOT! One thing I fear is that the Union Pacific just may win this first battle in an Omaha Court against Lionel and Athearn. The fact is that they both used a trademarked symbol and slogan without the permission of the Union Pacific RR. The question in court is does this trademark apply beyond the boundaries of the industry that the Union Pacific participates in and does it cause them harm? This could be a tough one to take to court and if I put odds to it I would say this is at best a 50/50 case. The appalling issue here with both the Union Pacific and now the CSX is that both companies are trying to license something they don't own and doing so through intimidation... The truth is that that neither company owns or controls the prior marks of their predecessors and have made no move to protect those marks and at least the UP has lost at least some control of some of the marks because they have allowed them to become abandoned. Nonetheless, The shadow that they have cast on their own industry and ours destroys all the goodwill they could ever hope to gain with "marks." Dick Davdison, get your face out of the mirror, your hands out of model railroad industries pockets, and get your railroad back on track... We all here think your BUILDING AMERICA on Deeded property, on the backs of your customers, through intimidation and one more thing, you run a business not a franchise... "Franchise" the newest fashion in CEO sling words. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:04:08 GMT Subject: [PRR] UP Logo Mess Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:05:35 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Perhaps we should reverse the UP trademark so the they become PU....just a thought. Jim MCDaniel, Delmarva where Uncle Pete is rarely if ever seen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:18:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please discontinue the discussion of trademarks, etc., on the PRR-talk list. Please take it to a UP or CSX list, or perhaps a trademark list, if there is one. There is no PRR content. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:18:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Please discontinue the discussion of trademarks, etc., on the PRR-talk list. Please take it to a UP or CSX list, or perhaps a trademark list, if there is one. There is no PRR content. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:57:28 -0500 To: "'PRR-Talk'" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 28, 2004, at 11:12 PM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This car is also readily available in N scale made by Lima and Model > Power. > You can regularly see these in stores or on Ebay. As I read this I figured Doug knows his stuff... but that can't be right!! So I went looking and dang, that car is a PBM70! So how is it that a manufacturer produces such an obscure prototype that wouldn't even be correct for most PRR layouts??? Heck, they sell it as a "standard combine". Who'd a thunk?? Of course, it does go with their "standard coach" which is a P70 albeit with the incorrect trucks. (both these cars sound like excellent fodder for the upcoming PRRPro P70 project!!) You want bizarre? Look at this car in Amtrak paint!! http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp8627.htm Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:05:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com There is a picture plus a drawing in the August 1963 issue of Model Railroader. I am in the process of bashing one from a P70 coach. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Park Varieties" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:13 PM Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? The 1953 Passenger Equipment Register lists a total of 7 of these cars in the 5202-5215 series plus 5251. There is diagram of this car in the Wayner book but I am looking for a photo. Does anyone know where these cars might have been used? Can I assume branch lines since it is essentially a complete train contained in one car? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:12:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com When the owner of the shop where I worked bought out a Hobbytown, we inherited a stack of these little beasties. I believe trains was about 10th on the knowledge list of the previous owner, based upon the other inventory we inherited. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" > You want bizarre? Look at this car in Amtrak paint!! > http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp8627.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:50:58 -0500 To: "Paul & Dot" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 29, 2004, at 10:05 AM, Paul & Dot wrote: > There is a picture plus a drawing in the August 1963 issue of Model > Railroader. > I am in the process of bashing one from a P70 coach. > Paul Paul, PLEASE! Give us more details ! Also, feel free to join us on the PRRPro list next month as we start our P70 project. The PB70 and PBM70 derivatives are fair game too! Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:03:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Location of F3's in Keystone From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Haven't had a chance to take a second look myself (yet), but Bill Lewis just called and said that in the new issue of The Keystone there is a photo of F3's on page 11 from 1958 with no location noted. Bill says it is in York, Pa., with the two stall enginehouse in the background of the F units. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TCJ Riggs" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:53:42 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Al, I ordered a copy of the book today. Thanks. Though I model in N scale, I look forward to the P70 project, as I will most certainly learn something. Tom Riggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'TCJ Riggs'" ; Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:22 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Fw: P70 coaches and Key Imports > Re: proper color for P70 coach steps in the mid-50s. > > The PRRT&HS Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book (p. 35) states > that since mid-1938 the P70 step treads and vestibule floor were black. > Prior to that they were olive. This book is available at the e-Store web > site: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html It's the most > authoritative source on painting PRR passenger equipment. > > Al Buchan > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "fayemike@netzero.net" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 01:53:44 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] The PRR in Detroit Hello to Rick & list, Yes, Joy Rd, Grand River Ave, Schaffer Ave and Lyndon St should appear on any good map of Detroit. They are main thoroughfares. I live about 35 miles north and moved to Michigan just about the time Fort Street Union Depot was closed and demolished soon afterwards. Mike Nebel #1831 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:43:22 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1E1E7E90-1217-11D9-9CC3-000A958DAD46@vetmed.auburn.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: 6b73c4bfaee5d95e1a2467d70233b1a70a9da525759e2654a931a31f2503efacaad66f8f872a9b4d387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 165.247.216.61 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The correct P70 trucks (2D-P5) are available in N scale from American Limited. Doug. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:57 AM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] PBM70 On Sep 28, 2004, at 11:12 PM, Douglas Nelson wrote: > This car is also readily available in N scale made by Lima and Model > Power. > You can regularly see these in stores or on Ebay. As I read this I figured Doug knows his stuff... but that can't be right!! So I went looking and dang, that car is a PBM70! So how is it that a manufacturer produces such an obscure prototype that wouldn't even be correct for most PRR layouts??? Heck, they sell it as a "standard combine". Who'd a thunk?? Of course, it does go with their "standard coach" which is a P70 albeit with the incorrect trucks. (both these cars sound like excellent fodder for the upcoming PRRPro P70 project!!) You want bizarre? Look at this car in Amtrak paint!! http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/mdp/mdp8627.htm Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Detroit's PRR plant X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/28/04 11:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:58:01 -0500 > From: "Jim Hediger" > Subject: RE:The PRR in Detroit > > In the 1960s, the Pennsy operated over the C&O (PM District) from Alexis, O. > to Carleton, MI. At Carleton, the C&O crossed the DT&I main line just before > the PRR diverged to the NE and crossed the DT&I Dearborn Branch at Penford > to reach Lincoln Yard in suburban Lincoln Park (just SE of the Wabash Oakwood > Yard). > > PRR continued north to the Wabash Bridge where it entered the trackage of > the Union Belt of Detroit RR. (The Union Belt was jointly owned by the PRR, > Wabash, and C&O), which provided a double track route through Delray Tower for > all three RR's to reach Fort Street Union Depot downtown at Fort &Third Sts. > The PRR also had a freighthouse just east of FSUD. Passenger steam engines > were serviced at the 16th St. roundhouse, while diesels were serviced at > Lincoln Yard and turned on the wye at Delray on the way to the depot. > > The Foreman Wye was just east of the Wabash Bridge and PRR switchers used it > to reach the huge Ford Rouge Plant and industrial trackage on Detroit's west > side. > > Regards, > > Jim Hediger, senior editor > MODEL RAILROADER Magazine > Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash tapes -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Lines West specific equipement emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > I know Lines West had some cabins and steam locos with modifications used > on LW only or as a general rule...........is there somewhere I can go to that I don't know of any one place to go, and the answer depends on the era. Some hints: 1. In the beginning, the companies that would become Lines West bought as they saw fit. After becoming part of the Pennsy system, a lot of locomotives were carried as "odd class". For example, a 4-4-0 from Alco Pittsburgh might be rostered as D-odd class. 2. Once consolidation took hold, new equipment was PRR standard. However, a Lines West company might buy that standard engine from Alco or Lima instead of Baldwin or Altoona. Also, Lines West originated some PRR standard designs which were not copied by Lines East. This includes the N1 (Fort Wayne designed), the H10, the Glb hopper (Standard Steel Car design instead of Lines East's GLa from Pressed Steel Car). The N6 cabin car, a Lines West rebuild of 4-wheel cabins, came with two cupola designs, the N6a (Fort Wayne) and N6b (Panhandle Division). 3. Lines West also was the recipient of Pennsy's USRA power -- L2s (five) and N2s (130?). And shortly after WW1, Lines West was still asserting its independence by centering headlights on the smokebox instead of at the top. 4. By the late days of steam, about the only real distinction in equipment was that Lines West had some additional loco classes, and liked to build up coal boards in various ways. Note that somewhere along the line, the N5 (Lines East) came west. 5. After dieselization, about the only sign of Lines West was the concentration of FM switchers, particularly the H-10-44. By the Sixties, some N6b went east, further blurring the distinction. I don't normally think of the T1 as a Lines West animal, but you're right -- like all things that embarassed the guys in Philadelphia , they wound up on Lines West and finished dead at Crestline. Of course, there's a lot more to a railroad than its rolling stock. Lines West also had building plans of its own, and around 1900 still had its own signaling and interlocking standards. But by the period most of us are interested in, I like to say Lines West (especially the Panhandle side) was like some strange Midwestern granger line, except assembled from the standard PRR parts catalog. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Lines West specific equipement X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/27/04 5:09:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, emyers5@neo.rr.com writes: > I know Lines West had some cabins and steam locos with modifications used > on LW only or as a general rule...........is there somewhere I can go to that > lists these unique LW changes or maybe someone that knows what we did here > different than Lines East?? > I just finished reading the book "SET UP RUNNING" and in it there was made > mention of the occasional piece of equipement that drifted to Williamsport. > In there, O.P. Orr mentions the N6b Cabins and H9s or H10s's with the inward > sloping upper extensions on the tender coal bunkers. There was mention of the > T1, N1, and HH1 being LW stuff too but I am after specific mods to "regular" > PRR Cabins and locos...... > THANKS! Earl Myers > PRRT&HS member > I don't know of any one place to go, and the answer depends on the era. Some hints: 1. In the beginning, the companies that would become Lines West bought as they saw fit. After becoming part of the Pennsy system, a lot of locomotives were carried as "odd class". For example, a 4-4-0 from Alco Pittsburgh might be rostered as D-odd class. 2. Once consolidation took hold, new equipment was PRR standard. However, a Lines West company might buy that standard engine from Alco or Lima instead of Baldwin or Altoona. Also, Lines West originated some PRR standard designs which were not copied by Lines East. This includes the N1 (Fort Wayne designed), the H10, the Glb hopper (Standard Steel Car design instead of Lines East's GLa from Pressed Steel Car). The N6 cabin car, a Lines West rebuild of 4-wheel cabins, came with two cupola designs, the N6a (Fort Wayne) and N6b (Panhandle Division). 3. Lines West also was the recipient of Pennsy's USRA power -- L2s (five) and N2s (130?). And shortly after WW1, Lines West was still asserting its independence by centering headlights on the smokebox instead of at the top. 4. By the late days of steam, about the only real distinction in equipment was that Lines West had some additional loco classes, and liked to build up coal boards in various ways. Note that somewhere along the line, the N5 (Lines East) came west. 5. After dieselization, about the only sign of Lines West was the concentration of FM switchers, particularly the H-10-44. By the Sixties, some N6b went east, further blurring the distinction. I don't normally think of the T1 as a Lines West animal, but you're right -- like all things that embarassed the guys in Philadelphia , they wound up on Lines West and finished dead at Crestline. Of course, there's a lot more to a railroad than its rolling stock. Lines West also had building plans of its own, and around 1900 still had its own signaling and interlocking standards. But by the period most of us are interested in, I like to say Lines West (especially the Panhandle side) was like some strange Midwestern granger line, except assembled from the standard PRR parts catalog. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:46:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Detroit's PRR plant PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > From: "Jim Hediger" > Subject: RE:The PRR in Detroit > > In the 1960s, the Pennsy operated over the C&O (PM District) from Alexis, O. > to Carleton, MI. At Carleton, the C&O crossed the DT&I main line just before > the PRR diverged to the NE and crossed the DT&I Dearborn Branch at Penford > to reach Lincoln Yard in suburban Lincoln Park (just SE of the Wabash Thanks, Jim, for getting me off thin ice. I liked Detroit, just didn't get to railfan there much. But I relive it once in a while in Emery Gulash tapes -- especially Michigan Fast Freight. Do you remember any highway overpasses with PRR-style handrails on them? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:14:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Seasonal Open Houses From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9C3C60DE-12E2-11D9-9DBE-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The holidays are approaching -- as is November (Model Railroading Month) -- and that means....it's layout open house season! I've already started receiving open house notices which has spurred me to make a call for open house announcements. If you or your club is having an open house over the coming months, and PRR content is involved, please send me the details for posting on the Timetable page of Keystone Crossings. The announcement must include the date(s) of the open house, name of the layout, URL (if there is a web site), very brief description (1-3 sentences), hours of the open house, address of the open house. I will not make an incomplete post. If you are submitting information on behalf of a club, please acknowledge that you are providing the information in an official capacity. Thank you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Paul & Dot" Subject: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:45:17 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bruce and list, The magazine article isn't much. There are two pictures and two = drawings. One of a P70 and the other of a PBM70. I had an extra P70 and = decided to try and bash the PBM70 from this kit. When I overlaid the = side of the P70 over the drawing everything seemed to line up. I filled = in the windows that were not part of PBM with styrene, cut off the one = vestibule window, shortened the roof and floor, added the baggage doors = plus the mail door. I sort of come to a complete stop in the process for = the past couple of years. Health issues and personal things are the = culprit. I have been reading the post on the modelers list and have been = able to acquire all the kits and all the parts. Now I need to take the = time to work on all of them plus the PBM70. Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:33:06 -0700 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/30/04 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:10:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hey Guys.... While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. It's hard to belive that the poles are still up. I think the last GG1 was built in 1942 at the shops. Also GG1 4876 was rebuilt in '52-53. The poles were made from wood and the wire hangers were still attached. The poles start at the old erecting shops then go west for about a quarter mile. A rare piece of PRR history. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:48:25 -0500 Message-ID: <2261A19CD8CAD8449EFD62CAA311A7483F8324@EXCHANGE.herzogcompanies.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. thread-index: AcSnEOVGi93sX8bdT8a+/nNajrW3AQABuwLQ From: "Bill Volkmer" To: , Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Probably a crane runway. Never any catenary poles in Altoona. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. Hey Guys.... =20 While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. It's hard to belive that the poles are still up. I think the last GG1 was built in 1942 at the shops. Also GG1 4876 was rebuilt in '52-53. The poles were made from wood and the wire hangers were still attached. The poles start at the old erecting shops then go west for about a quarter mile. A rare piece of PRR history.=20 Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:58:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 30, 2004, at 01:48 PM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > Probably a crane runway. Never any catenary poles in Altoona. Bill -- In the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum there are photos of catenary in Altoona. They also included it on their HO model railroad, showing a "test track" for electric locos. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > zootowerprr@webtv.net > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:11 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. > > > Hey Guys.... > > While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR > Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. It's hard to > belive that the poles are still up. I think the last GG1 was built in > 1942 at the shops. Also GG1 4876 was rebuilt in '52-53. > The poles were made from wood and the wire hangers were still > attached. The poles start at the old erecting shops then go west for > about a quarter mile. A rare piece of PRR history. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:48:55 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi Bill, I may have to disagree with you on this subject. These poles were on a single track that went right to the mainline (old passenger main 3 & 4). These poles had hangers for catenary. Bill, I know your knowledge is greater then mine on the PRR but "seeing is believing". One of the shop guides did say that this was the old electric test track. The poles are along the shop fence line up against the NS main line, but it's pretty much impossible to photograph from that part the yards because you would have stand inside the yard across from the erecting shop. I'm looking for some published photos of the erecting shop area. Maybe these poles will be in some of them. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:08 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:50:08 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:27:39 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ted Andrews asked: "Who has come out with detailed cab interiors for F-units? I know that Athearn Genesis has an interior for their F-'s. They are pretty good; I don't know if they are offered separately. Are there other manufacturers and are they any good?" GSB also offered an F-unit interior during the late 1980s - early 1990s. It consisted of a styrene floor, dash, and rear bulkhead, and had white metal seats and control stand. Unfortunately, it's long out of production. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:52:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Catenary Poles in Altoona. X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 9/30/2004 1:24:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > While on a tour of the Juniata Shops with the Penn Central RR > Historical Society, I came across some old catenary poles. A tour of the shops with the Penn State Altoona conference some number of Junes ago included the powerhouse, in which I noticed a rotary convertor with an output indicated for 11500 volts AC at 25 cycles: inquiry to the Conrail tour guide had response that the convertor was there to supply single-phase power to a test/break-in track just outside the shop. I do not recall seeing catenary strung at the time (late 1980s), but I have a visual remembrance of photos that show test track as being along the western side of the shop buildings, no more than one or two tracks from the buildings. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA P.S.: that tour guide was the same one who I convinced to take me to the master scale, where I got UNDER the scale to take pictures, which I have been looking for for some time now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:26:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ben, I just recently bought a couple interiors from Keystone Locomotive Works as their part #HO-3301 - they note that they are being made under license from GSB - so I think you can still get them - they are nice, and very well detailed, plastic and white metal parts. I had tried to get the cab interior parts from Athearn to use on my Highliners kits, as that is what they are designed to fit, but the hobby shop I was working through couldn't get them, believe they said the part number off the repair parts list, #G19201, wasn't on the list of parts you could order. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Ted Andrews Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. > Ted Andrews asked: > "Who has come out with detailed cab interiors for F-units? I know that Athearn Genesis has an interior for their F-'s. They are pretty good; I don't know if they are offered separately. Are there other manufacturers and are they any good?" > > GSB also offered an F-unit interior during the late 1980s - early 1990s. It consisted of a styrene floor, dash, and rear bulkhead, and had white metal seats and control stand. Unfortunately, it's long out of production. > > > Ben Hom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Whalthers coaches Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:15:38 -0500 To: ndbprr@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 2, 2004, at 9:02 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Are either the 48 seat or the 52 seat coaches prototypical for the > PRR? If so in what service were they used? Thank you, Norm Bell Norm, The 46/48 seat coach is based on an AT&SF prototype (note that there were 48 seats, but that only 46 were sold to the public). The 52 seat coach is based on a SCL prototype. Its is off from an ACL car by 1/2 window, and is also very close to the P85 coaches that the PRR used for its contribution to the Southwind and Champion. I'm planning on modifying one with new window strips to use as a P85 for my Champion. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Pfeiffer" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K4s tender question Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 08:22:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [151.197.9.124] at Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:20:34 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Doug, I sent them an email several days ago asking the same question about the K4 tender class. I have not received a reply. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Morning Sun Book Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 20:56:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Mike, I have the book you mention and yes there is a section on the PRR Elmira Branch. The section is 9 pages long and includes 21 pictures. The photos contain mostly steam and they were taken in 1957. The coverage starts with Southport Yard in Elmira and heads south to Grover. Locomotives included are of the M-1, L-1, I-1, H-9, F7, PA, GP7, and RS11 types. J. Smith > Has anyone on the list reviewed "Trackside Around Sayre-Towanda-Waverly" > by > Morning Sun Books? Supposedly there is a section on the Elmira Branch in > it. > > Mike Morrow > PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI PRR J1 discovery Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:43:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I am sorry I did not pass on this info as you did. OTOH, if I had known about it I would not have had to return one J1 and nearly wrecked a second one before discovering the same thing. I was puzzled because 9 of the axle bearings have keepers built into the frame. As you indicated the center one floats the bearing on one side and needs the cover plate to be carefully placed with the one tiny ridge as the keeper. I have a feeling this is done to allow some flex in the mechanism when changing out flanged or traction-tire driver sets. Given that a lot of people will do this, it would have been helpful to have some instructions. OTOH, it falls in the same category as my lucky guess on the M1b that the tender was held on with a screw, not a friction fit like the T1 :-). Of course I have never ever been able to remove the T1 tender shell,but fortunately don't have to now that I discovered 100% ops mode programming. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Breon" I've recently diagnosed and repaired a problem I was having with the operation of one of my HO scale Broadway Limited Imports PRR J1 models and thought that perhaps some of you may benefit from my experience. I was very impressed with how smoothly my model ran right out of the box and after a reasonable break in period I decided to install the optional traction tire-equipped driver to increase the model's pulling power. The installation went smoothly (or so I thought) and I was pleased with the additional traction available. However, soon after beginning operation on a 65-car hopper train, I noticed the locomotive had developed a slight hop with each revolution. It was quite noticeable and also seemed to introduce a slight bind in the mechanism which would cause the model to hesitate and stall at the lower speed steps. I had read on one of the lists about the front pair of drivers contacting the cylinders and had already noted the same problem on mine and clearanced this area prior to installing the traction tire. Careful examination of the traction tire drivers eliminated an out-of-round condition so I decided to switch back to the original smooth driver to see if the hitch disappeared. Much to my dismay, the locomotive continued to demonstrate the same hop and bind. I decided to pull the driver retainer plate off another time and carefully inspect the drive gear on the center axle. Perhaps a piece of debris was lodged in one of the teeth. This inspection also showed nothing. If you're still with me, this is where I found the problem. Each driver axle has a pair of brass or bronze journals similar to those found in brass imports. They all register in a slot provided in the locomotive's frame. Unlike brass imports, the journal is not an "H" section, but rather more of a "T" section and relies on a bushing on the axle to keep it pushed outboard and properly located in the frame slot. I noticed that the journal on the engineer's side of the center, gear-equipped axle was not properly registered. The journal had slid towards the center gear which allowed the driver axle to cock slightly, thus creating the hitch and bind with each revolution. All journals except for this one have a bushing that keeps them slid outboard on their respective axles and properly registered. I did not see any provision for retaining the misaligned journal. I was just about to pull the driver from its axle to install a bushing when I noticed a small plastic ridge on the underside of the retainer plate. Sure enough, this ridge was there to retain its corresponding journal in the frame slots. This time I carefully re-assembled the model taking care to keep the journal properly registered until the retainer plate was fully secured. This did it! The model now runs flawlessly without any trace of a hitch or bind. Hopefully, one of you will benefit from this story. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] A powered B-unit Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:14:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com You didn't say what era , but you could also run A-A-A or use a powered Alco PB as the prototype did. Seems to me that Athearn powered some of their Bs. Body may not be up to P2K standards, but I know the Athearn Alco units I sold on eBay were very smooth runners---just can't remember if the B unit was powered :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Rea" To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: [PRR] A powered B-unit Does any one know where I can get a powered E B unit in PRR colors? I have two dummy A units carrying a video camera and transmitter in one and rechargeable batteries in the other. These are Rivarossi units with the motors removed and NWSL wheels. The system works great and visitors love to operate by sitting in front of a TV and "riding" in the cab. The problem is I have no appropriate powered unit to push them and pull the train. It needs to be a good puller as the train should look like it needs three units. LLP2K would be great but others might work. If I can't find a PRR unit I'd consider something else and painting it. Fred Rea Columbus, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:19:59 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Ex-Pennsy Engine Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabins on M&E From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:32:32 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <4141CE73.15827.2DAC8409@localhost> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSXegdz4rHtbOVMQhGhG4bwJsIZUgAA08PA Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken, There is more to come. I keep getting additional data from other list members all this afternoon. I will try to compile a master list from this. Jerry, If you are lurking, I can email you the original MS word table when its done, for inclusion on KC. I leave it to you and your itty-bitty friends to do the same for N scale. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hough Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:56 PM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-Talk'; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR HO Psngr Models.doc again Andy! Thank You!! This list is EXACTLY the cross reference I needed. Jerrys site is great but there are cars that were discontinued when I managed a hobby shop 30 years ago and finding them at a train show is near impossible now. Way to go!. Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bethlehem Mines hopper car Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:59:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <15c.3e695461.2e748d6e@aol.com> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Evan Leisey asked: "Just picked up a Bowser hopper kit lettered for Bethlehem Mines. This car is of an older style open top hopper with the clam shell doors (rapid discharge). As lettered, is this an authentic model or an exercise of model manufactures' license?" According to John Nehrich, Bethlehem Mines did indeed have these cars in 1924 and 1927; however, all were off the roster by 1932. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B express reefers Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:39:16 -0500 To: Frederick Ripley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 12, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > Hello all, > > I am looking at the Walthers Sept. catalog, and the various versions > of the > R50B express reefer (p.26). It seems to me these have been discussed > fairly > extensively in the past, so I'm sorry for any repetitition. My > questions > are fairly brief however. > > 1. Were these used in quantity up to the end of the PRR? Fred, They were getting pretty scarce towards the end. Bob Johnson, way back in January 2002 said (on this list) "At the beginning of 1967 there were only six R50B cars left on the passenger equipment roster. All were gone from the roster by the end of 1967." This email from Bob also contains excellent details on paint, lettering and safety appliances. I would note that during our PRRPro R50B project Bob determined that single grab on each end of the side was a further modification of 2 left grab car, and not a car that had escaped freight car appliance addition. For more details on this and sprucing up the model you can check out the PRRPro archives (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) > 2. If so, then I take it the keystone only scheme (932-5883) would be > most > applicable for mid-60's? This scheme posed an interesting problem for Walthers. I know it doesn't sound like them, but they wanted not only prototypical schemes, but they wanted documented photographic evidence and car numbers! Photos of "scotchlite" keystone R50Bs are very rare! I can't guarantee the numbers for the keystone R50Bs, but the scheme is correct (Greg Martin or Bob Johnson might be able to add more). This scheme would have started appearing in 1962, but cars may not have made it into this scheme for years, if at all, so you could also use a heavily weathered "Non-REA" scheme (the REA lettering was removed in 1954). > 3. Does one apply nos., like Walthers passenger cars, so more than one > road no. can be created, or do they come with nos. applied? No, the cars are numbered. The best way to get multiple numbers is to buy the 2 pack and the single, for three different numbers. After that, you're back to removing numbers and decals. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:18:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago, Ft. Wayne divisions (fwd) From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 03:05 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Can anyone help out with this request? Thank you, Norm Bell - PRRT&HS > Cgo Terminal Chapter > > -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- > From: "Robert Vercel" > I am wondering if you might know of someone who could assist me on a > question I have. I am trying to get a locomotive and cabin car roster > for the PRR (circa 1940-1955) for the Chicago and the Ft. Wayne > divisions. With regards to cabins, there's a "just missed" roster from 1957 on Keystone Crossings, which is searchable by divisions and includes most of the actual assignments. Address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ With regards to locomotives, you need Form 229. The Motive Operations section of Keystone Crossings has one for 1954, plus links to others on other web sites for 1944 and 1957. These are broken down by division. The address is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/ Hope this helps! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:00:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers sleeper From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, September 14, 2004, at 01:46 PM, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Is Walthers PS 6-6-4 sleeper PRR correct? for 1955-57? No. PRR didn't have any 6-6-4's. > > Did anyone else see that Alto tower is coming out in a model? Yes. The N Scale Architect is bringing out ALTO tower this Novemberish... in N scale. They are considering doing it in HO scale. Additional towers are being considered. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wathers REA cars Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:11:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.bluemoon.net X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Frederick, The Railway Express Agency (Hunter Green) (932-6241), REA EXpress (Hunter Green) (932-6242) and REA Express (Chromate Green) (932-6243) could all be seen in the 60's. The Railway Express agency, Striped Scheme is not appropriate for these cars as it was applied to the 1947(?) cars only, and for a short time. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:08 AM Subject: [PRR] Wathers REA cars > Another head-end question: > > On the same page of the Walthers catalog as the R50B's are REA express cars. > Of these various schemes (chromate green, hunter green, striped), > > (1) which are most accurate? > > (2) which were most common on PRR passenger and mail trains, mid-60's? > > > The hunter green scheme is the one I am most familiar with, but presumably > the others are possibilities too. > > Thanks, Fred R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Steam Line Connection Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:25:50 -0500 To: Greg Ritacco X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 14, 2004, at 10:19 AM, Greg Ritacco wrote: > Hi Group, > With the upcoming PRR-Pro P70 project, I find I need a refresher in > steam line 101. In photos, I notice that sometimes the connection is > a hose, and others it's an articulated mechanical gizmo. Earlier > photos favor the hose, and later photos favor the gizmo. Will someone > educate me as to what's (or was) going on? Thanks. > PS were the brake line and signal hoses different sizes, or could you > accidently couple one to the other? Thanks again. > Greg Ritacco Greg, Yes, the steam line connections are of two different types. The "articulated mechanical gizmo" is a metallic steam line connector. I do not know the chronology of these, but they were common in the 1930's and 1940s. This part is duplicated by the Cal-Scale part (see the R50B project information at the PRRPro site). As for brake and signal lines, the lines themselves were of different sizes, but I'm not sure about the connectors. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography revisited Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:27:32 -0400 To: robert netzlof X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 15, 2004, at 10:40 PM, robert netzlof wrote: > I'm embarrassed to say that I can't find a copy of the "Partial > Bibliography of CT1000". Fortunately, I had put a copy of the data > online at > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Documentation/Scales/biblio.html You also posted it to the list, so it appears in the web archive... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:53 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, Thanks for the thoughts, but I am fine here in St. Joe Beach. Lost power at 4 PM, yesterday, not from Ivan but from a lightning strike to the substation near me. But we had tornadoes all around last night. And 500 very expensive beachfront homes are now on an island w/o connection to the mainland. Worse, 12 were swept away. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listers in Harm's Way > Folks, not to take away from anyone's experience with recent hurricanes, > but Ivan is particularly nasty in that it is moving slow and causing a > lot of tornados. > > We have numerous listers in the areas immediately affected... Bruce Smith > (Auburn AL), Gregg Mahlkov, and Steve Hoxie (Pensacola FL), to name a > few. > > The I-10 bridge at Pensacola, for instance, has seen better times... > > http://www.foxnews.com/photo_essay/photoessay_156_images/ 091604_ivan6.jpg > > Please keep these folks in your thoughts. Thanks. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:59:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <96913E48-08CA-11D9-9570-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison between the two as of yet. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:49:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Updates From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 08:52 AM, director wrote: > By the way, the most recent updates/photos posted about the project > went on the Horseshoe Curve NRHS Chpater website in August of this > year. Scott, just for the record, are you saying the Horseshoe Curve NRHS Chapter web site is the authoritative source of info for the 1361 project? I'm fine with that, but there's been a history of, shall we say, "miscommunication" and posting of "non-authoritative" information. My goal here is constructive, not instigative. But please clarify that you are indeed sending folks to a web site other than the museum's for authoritative information on behalf of the museum. Thanks for the update. Hope to see more details soon. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:07:39 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <091720042201.26539.414B5ECD000A8B4D000067AB220076143802019B040A0D0B020E9C079D080C@comcast.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The trucks in the Walthers photo look like Pullman 242 trucks which were correct for about half the 12-1s in PRR service. Doug Nelson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of chrisandbelton@comcast.net Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 3:02 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Walthers 12-1 Heavyweight Sleeper The trucks in the pic of that PRR 12-1 Pullman are the same as those shown earlier on the B&O car. Are they correct for Pennsy? If so, what era? They look like top-equalized trucks to my amateur eyes. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -------------- Original message -------------- > On Friday, September 17, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Walthers ran an ad in the last issue of MR showing their plans for > > heavyweight sleepers. Sometime in the last week or so they have added > > a page to their web site for the first car, the 12-1... > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/press/2004/sleeper > > > > There is a photo of the planned PRR car, though lacking a car name. > > Hopefully they and Branchline, who also has a 12-1 coming out about > > the same time, will not overlap on car names. Branchline is doing > > three post-war car names and three "Fleet of Modernism" car names. > > Sorry, suppose it is worth mentioning that the Walthers car is > ready-to-run with optional, owner-applied details included. The > Branchline car is a kit. I can't comment on the quality comparison > between the two as of yet. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 01:49:36 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] keystone crossing page Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Earl/all: I can access Jerry's server from here. It quite possibly just came back on line... Either try hitting refresh button on your browser, or see if this problem goes away in the morning when the internet gets used to it being back on-line. If not, e-mail the list back with an "attn: Jerry Britton" in the subject and I'm sure he'll get it figured out... Jeff Warner Earl Myers wrote: >List; > I tried Jerry's sites also and am getting "Page not found" messages........... >Earl Myers >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:53:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline 8-1-2 From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:47:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1938 4-4-2's X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, There were post WWII cars built for the PRR to a different 4-4-2 design than the pre-war versions. Of course the pre-war versions went to lesser trains as the new cars went to the Broadway Limited and other premier trains. The new version eliminated the upper berth little windows and changed the spacing of and placement of a number of bedrooms windows. Car sides for the post war new design are available from Laser Horizons. Regards, Dennis Sautters PRRT&HS #1974 In a message dated 9/20/2004 9:30:17 PM Central Standard Time, fjr@mchsi.com writes: Hello all, I enjoyed and found useful the summary of the upcoming Walthers 2nd release of PRR 10-5's and 4-4-2's in the recent "Keystone Modeler" (sorry, I don't remember who wrote this). My question is the following: of the 4-4-2 schemes, the writer describes one as postwar, w/out skirting, but with the upper birth windows, and adds "Yikes!". "Yikes" doesn't sound good- is it the windows that are wrong? I would like to have one of these cars, still in use in extra service in the 1960's, but not if it has a major problem. Thanks for any info, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Hough " Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:22:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments in e-Mails on List Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:48:10 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New MTH HO PRR K-4 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Ken: Looks interesting... My first questions is: How much of the sound effects, etc can be turned off individually... I don't want a K-4 announcing itself at stations automatically every time you stop it the way the 027 MTH models do (there's this thing called "red signals")... Same applies to other sound effects...hopefully on DCC you can control each individually with a function button and all the "automatic" effects in their 027 stuff would go away... Also, the smoke would have to go as I don't really want a layout with residue all over the rails (and MTH's 027 scale smoke smells BAD).... Thanks for keeping us informed. Jeff Warner KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: >Guys take a look at the MTH site it has a few shots of their first HO scale >piece a PRR K-4. Looks like two versions pre war and post war moderized. ---- >Ken McCorry > http://www.mthhotrains.com/news.asp > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:56:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, The Pennsy didn't own any Phase 1 GP9s. The quickest/easiest spotting feature to ID a Ph1 unit is to check how many of the engine room doors have louver sets. As built, Ph1 units had louver sets only on the first two engine room doors--the tall doors for the uninitiated. (BTW, I define a "set" as two distinct areas of louver stampings on each door--one over the other. Sorry, but I forget how many louvers are in each.) For many roads, these proved inadequate for providing sufficient cooling. Therefore, many roads either ordered a set of louvers added to the third door, put in their own, or swapped blank doors for louvered ones to help prevent overheating. I'm sure there are other spotting features, but to me the doors are the easiest to find. Chuck Friedlein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Zoeller" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:49 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Geep phases Can someone steer me to an online reference to the above, with spotting tips? My question is inspired by the P2K GP9 Phase I with QSI sound announced. No PRR, but the undec appeals if Pennsy ever had one of these. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:26:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Bowser N Scale GLa Hopper Project Update From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Wednesday, September 22, 2004, at 02:18 PM, EMACGIS@aol.com wrote: > Do you know what dates these cars will carry? Any dates newer than > 1957? Don't know. The Circle Keystone's won't be any later than 1954, or they would have been repainted to Shadow Keystone... though they would have survived in Circle Keystone into the 1960's. Any Shadow Keystone is 1954 or later. If you are modeling 1957, I'd recommend about 50/50 mix. Perhaps more in Circle Keystone, if anything. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lionel and MTH Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:48:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSg4y8DshZwt0L0TemDabzOQKo8tAAAfzAA In-Reply-To: <092220042028.126.4151E07C0001AD140000007E21604666489D9D9F0D0B02@att.net> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I would venture to guess that it has more to do with the law suit than with the success of any particular products such as the HO line. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 4:29 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Lionel and MTH This was posted on the Trains.com web site today. Maybe Lionel's venture into HO wasn't a success or maybe there is something else going on. Time will tell. Norm Bell Breaking News: Top level changes at Lionel Jerry Calabrese has been named chief executive officer at Lionel LLC, the trainmaker's parent company, Wellspring Capital Management LLC, reported. Calabrese replaces chief executive officer Bill Bracy, who left the company last week. Also released at Lionel were vice president of marketing John Brady, product managers Todd Wagner and Eric Shreffler, and licensing and communications manager Julie Laird. Calabrese comes to Lionel with a long resume including positions at Marvel Enterprises (parent of Marvel Comics), GSC marketing, and IPnetwork.com, a licensing management business. Lionel hired Bracy in 2001 to replace Dick Maddox, who had announced his retirement. Maddox has since become chief executive officer at Atlas Model Railroad Co., parent of Atlas O. Bracy, along with Brady, Wagner, and Shreffler, were familiar faces in the Lionel booth at the spring and fall TCA York division meets and at TCA, LCCA, and other club conventions each summer. Wagner and Shreffler, as product managers, were responsible for the development of new Lionel locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. The two often introduced new products at train meets and conventions ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] New MTH HO....... Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:43:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] U25C Clarification From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:15:16 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] changes at Lionel Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Tucson3985@aol.com wrote: > The facts of the MTH--Lionel suit are hazy, but I believe it involves > Lionel's Korean manufacturer's alleged copying of MTH designs. Ivan, They're not hazy at all. Korea Brass stole the digital designs that MTH had developed and peddled them to Lionel as if they were their own. Some Lionel executives knew they weren't developed by Korea Brass nor Lionel but took advantage of the situation and had Korea brass produce very near identical models of the MTH engines. > Ivan Abrams > (and yes, I'm a lawyer, but be kind--someone had to do it and my number was > picked...) That's okay, my brother is also both a train collector and lawyer. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 19:04:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Oakwood yard Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA gondolas on Pennsy roster? Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:42:38 -0500 To: LeeRainey@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Sep 27, 2004, at 5:29 AM, LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > There have recently appeared on the market in S scale some very > attractive > new USRA gondolas, complete with drop bottoms. They can be seen at > http://www.showcaseline.com/indexComGon.html > > My question: did the Pennsy have any such cars? If so, what was the > class > number? Class G24, 750 cars. See http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24 Note that beginning in the early 1930's the composite sides were replaced by steel and there were no composite cars left by 1938. Mont Switzer did a nice article on modernizing the HO scale Intermountain kit in the February 2001 Mainline Modeler. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] BM70M question Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:16:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-index: AcSj5KBFhcQEOC2iRL6g96LRa3clnAArv4NA In-reply-to: <000d01c4a3e3$e88524c0$6401a8c0@userrtilb5vp8t> Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have heard that it was most often used for Company mail and material. Its existence was not because it was needed, but rather because the space was available. The PRR had standard plans for 70 foot cars, but the PO department only paid the 60 foot mail "apartments" (or 30, or 15 foot), so 10 feet of a 70 foot car body would be unpaid for. The PRR thus built the cars with 10 feet of baggage space and then searched for a use for it. Other RRs without "standard" plans just built 60 foot RPO cars. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Zoeller Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 12:15 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] BM70M question These cars had a short baggage section. I have assumed this was primarily or always used for working mail storage. Was it also used significantly for checked baggage or express? I presume the door was then locked to the RPO section. If it was so used, was it ever manned enroute by a separate crew member (from the RPO crew, I mean)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: RE: [PRR] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:55:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1dd.2c740f8a.2e89e061@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Passenger trains had a brake pipe pressure of 110 lbs where as freight trains were either 80 or 90 lbs. Passenger brake equipment had graduated release which freight systems did not. I think you'll find that these cabin cars were equipped with graduated release. Sid Johnson -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 5:30 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] "Passenger" cabooses for mail/express trains In a message dated 9/27/04 1:54:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The PRR put a cabin on the end of an express or mail train, and the cabin > was > marked specifically for this service? As you would find in an Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment or some ORER's, those cabins had "passenger" (4-digit) numbers, probably 5000-5031 or so. There is also a "Railway Express Agency" marking that was used sometime during the Circle Keystone era (1930-1953), but I'm not sure just when that practice started or ended. The important thing is that these were specially-assigned cabin cars, and this was recognized with special numbering. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:06:30 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO's in 15' increments... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, BD85R-Conv. 1964 to BM85 #6691-6694 85" Dormitory-Baggage-35' baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948-49 2E-P5,2E-P6 BD85R-Conv. 1964 to BM85 #6696 85" Dormitory-Baggage-35' baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948 2E-P5,2E-P6 BM85- Blt. as BD85 #6691-94-1948-49 -Conv. 1964 #6595-6598 x 85' Baggage-RPO-21'8" baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948-49 2EP5 BM85A-Blt. as PLB85 #6696-1948-Conv. 1964 #6599 x 85' Baggage-RPO-21'8" baggage ACF 2986 PRR 1948 2EP5 Regards, Eddie RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/27/04 1:14:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > I'll defer to anyone with better info, but... > > The M70 family were built as 70 foot cars. Then later (as I heard or read > somewhere), the Post Office department's Railway Mail Service prescribed standard > RPO compartments as 15', 30', 45', and 60' lengths. The BM70 rebuilds provided the > standard compartment (one payment) plus a 10' baggage section that, if filled or > partly filled with mail, could be billed additionally as mail storage space (by the > longitudinal foot?). Remember, they were dealing with government-type thinking. > > I'm not sure what other roads did when they were caught with 70' RPO's. > Sanity check: NYC and maybe PRR had a few 85' long RPO's. How long were the RPO > compartments in those cars? > > OK, experts -- how'd I do? > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PBM70 Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:44:33 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <002301c4a5b0$d3996890$714956d8@FBRUA> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2742.200 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Re: Does anyone know where there is a published picture of a Pennsy postal/baggage/combine, class PBM70? Frank, et al.: Page 90, 91 of the spring 1993 issue of "The Keystone" has a photo, albeit small but even better - a floor plan and side and end elevations. BTW the article says there were only four, so pictures would be rather rare. If you don't have this issue its available at the e-Store at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html It's the first issue listed. Al Buchan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:05:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] What does a trademark right really mean? Perhaps we should reverse the UP trademark so the they become PU....just a thought. Jim MCDaniel, Delmarva where Uncle Pete is rarely if ever seen ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Craig Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:37:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Some months ago. this topic came up & I was rebuked by one of the members for discussing it. This is my first post since. I have also seen a few messages on some related Yahoo groups where if a moderator (excuse me, "lead moderator") takes exception to content, falling outside their boundaries of "strictly PRR-related" that members are bounced. With all due respect, the trademark issue will come around to every road sooner or later (as soon as the current trademark holder realizes there is a buck to be made) Unless it gets to a point where trademark discussions are pre-empting everything else, I find it petty to pick and censor/censure people who make mention of it. We're not talking about trolls posting flames or porn here, it is a subject that is relevant to the modelers of every current railroad & fallen flag. I think it is relevant to the PRR (& the hope that we will not have to pay a "gratuity" for every keystone added to our collections) and should we ignore it then we will have no one left to blame but ourselves when down the road we find ourselves paying a "usage tariff" Not that I want to debate the matter at length, just that I abhor censorship, it kills creativity & sense of community. regards, Craig somewhere North of East Pittsburgh -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:18 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Trademark Thread Please discontinue the discussion of trademarks, etc., on the PRR-talk list. Please take it to a UP or CSX list, or perhaps a trademark list, if there is one. There is no PRR content. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:36:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale cab interiors for F- and E-units. From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Thursday, September 30, 2004, at 02:50 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > Who has come out with detailed cab interiors for F-units? I know that > Athearn Genesis has an interior for thier F-'s. They are pretty good; > I don't know if they are offered separately. > > Are there other manufacturers and are they any good. > > The engine that the interiors are for is a Stewart American Model Builders had a series of cab interiors for many years, but a recent visit (moments ago) to their web site shows they are no longer listed. You might be able to find some around. Merchandise Service shows 2 F-unit interiors for Athearn locos in stock, but I suspect that might be subject to verification. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!