BLI rumor

What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the car= s insuring safe transport of the barrels. Have seen this on passenger=20= equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment. = ; Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing sever= al cars?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088690486-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Enola Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] It's Harry Weiskittel, not Perry, OR Google is our friend Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:18:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <08CB84C2-CB8B-11D8-861E-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On the CNN web site, right now! http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/01/horseshoe.curve.ap/ index.html I'm hoping CNN covers the July 4th event with video... I'll be in South Carolina! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:38:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 7/1/04 1:30:06 PM, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << On the CNN web site, right now! http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/01/horseshoe.curve.ap/ index.html I'm hoping CNN covers the July 4th event with video... I'll be in South Carolina! >> **************** There was also a piece somewhere the other day that VP Cheney intends to be at the 7/4 Altoona Curves baseball game and may be at the curve, itself, for the picture taking. As I read the item, I thought of some messages here about the limitations on viewing locations. If the VP shows up, there will be even more limitations and traffic jams, etc. Regards, Marty Happy Birthday America!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:45:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 03:38 PM, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > As I read the item, I thought of some messages here about the > limitations on > viewing locations. If the VP shows up, there will be even more > limitations and > traffic jams, etc. Have no fear... Vice President Cheney will be at a secret, undisclosed location! (Isn't he always?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:05:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35BEA25@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2004 19:54:56.0369 (UTC) FILETIME=[487E3610:01C45FA5] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It is my understanding that when the event occurs the NS does not want ANYTHING in sight that isn't lettered NS. PRR is PERSONNA NON-GRATA for the event. How about THAT? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 2:18 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST; Conrail-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary On the CNN web site, right now! http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/01/horseshoe.curve.ap/ index.html I'm hoping CNN covers the July 4th event with video... I'll be in South Carolina! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:23:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Enser Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Subject: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:39:11 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I found out last weekend that the PRR E8s will not be part of the celebration. From what I was told, Norfolk Southern had nothing to with the E units not being there. Also, I rode the observation platform of car 120 around Horseshoe Curve and notice that the trees have been removed from the east side of the Curve. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:55:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - MP54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know the size of the porthole windows on the end of the cars? Does anyone know the length,width, and height of the headlight mounted on top of the roof? (I checked Rob's website of MP54 drawings and all it lists is the height) Thanks very much, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:55:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - MP54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know the size of the porthole windows on the end of the cars? Does anyone know the length,width, and height of the headlight mounted on top of the roof? (I checked Rob's website of MP54 drawings and all it lists is the height) Thanks very much, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:08:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: So this thread does not go down the "wrong" track, I can confirm the NS had nothing to do with the E-units not being on the 'curve on Sunday. They are currently in the shop being prepared for the four day excursion later this month to Dennison. As someone once said, "Tis better to light a candle, than curse the darkness". Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: "'Jerry Britton'" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:39 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary > > I found out last weekend that the PRR E8s will not be part of the > celebration. From what I was told, Norfolk Southern had nothing to with > the E units not being there. > Also, I rode the observation platform of car 120 around Horseshoe > Curve and notice that the trees have been removed from the east side of > the Curve. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:13:22 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Someone posted that NS is going to make sure everything is NS... I did read that NS specially painted a car with the logos of all of the railroads that have "owned" the Horseshoe Curve. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:20:57 -0400 From: Rob McKeever Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary X-AOL-IP: 4.10.29.174 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The RRMM ad in the July Railpace shows half that car, painted white with the NS and predecessor logos on the right half of the car. They are advertising it being offered in O by Weaver as a commemorative. Will be in Altoona this weekend visiting the in-laws, but am unsure whether I will get to the curve or not. If the festivities are on Sunday itself, that's a better chance, since Daytona is being run Saturday night, but this is our first family trip back since our daughter was born in May. We did take her on her first train ride at nine days old at the Manassas railfest last month... Rob McKeever Manassas VA robmckii@aol.com (long, long time subscriber that rarely posts) jerry@pennsyrr.com wrote: > Someone posted that NS is going to make sure everything is NS... > > I did read that NS specially painted a car with the logos of all of > the railroads that have "owned" the Horseshoe Curve. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] NS Painting engine PRR Tuscan .... Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:39:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 8:4:940890947 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: jTmkjNShdRGYa700blOSW/reLluNZfiSYEw+5mLpWLjczF3N4+Z8vhskFkSjgiNv Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hey Will , The take overs been quite a long time ago and they still haven't painted much black ......let alone Tuscan . I see more non-NS power than I see of their own . Sure wouldn't want to see a Keystone anywhere near that dumb donkey , it would make me sick . By the way NS , if things were the way I wanted them to be ........the only NS thing on the curve would be a boxcar in a train pulled by a few DGLE loco's ! Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net E-bay : iron*mah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Enser" To: "'PRR-Talk LIST'" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:23 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary > > "IF" I was the head of NS, I would be doing a PRR paint scheme on > one of the newest locos in the fleet. Nice marooon with PENNSYLVANIA down > the side of it and a keystone/donkey combo logo on the nose. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Andrisd@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:02:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary If anyone wants to ask NS CEO here's your chance, From the EL email mail list----- Slightly off topic, though just a note of interest - Thursday you could see a matching passenger train sitting at the Binghamton DL&W station. Return of the EL? Nope. How about Norfolk Southern's executive train? It may not be the Lake Cities, but it is there and definetly caught my attention. Word has it that their CEO is in town. Also anyone close to Waverly should stop and see the NS exhibit car. It's there until Monday as part of the Village of Waverly's 150th Birthday. Check it out! Andy Cole -------------------------------1088758928 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

If anyone wants to ask NS CEO here's your chance,=20= >From the EL email mail list-----

Slightly off topic, though just a note of interest= - Thursday you could see a matching passenger train sitting at the Binghamt= on DL&W station. Return of the EL? Nope. How about Norfolk Souther= n's executive train? It may not be the Lake Cities, but it is there and defi= netly caught my attention. Word has it
that their CEO is in town.<= BR>
Also anyone close to Waverly should stop and see the NS exhibit car.=20= It's there until Monday as part of the Village of Waverly's 150th Birthday.=20= Check it out!

Andy Cole

-------------------------------1088758928-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:30:45 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: As of this morning there is nothing specific on the NS website ... but NS is a good corporate citizen and I think will do the celebration right. On the "History" page of the NS website, there is almost as much about the PRR as N&W and SRR --and remember NS didn't acquire the PRR, just Conrail! There is also a most elegant photo of PRR 1361 for your enjoyment and a link to the PRRT&HS. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva reporter ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:36:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] July InterMountain Releases From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <68CC09B4-CC4E-11D8-A69D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement: The July releases have been posted to the InterMountain web site. All are for delivery later this month. Included: HO scale B60b Express Messenger cars in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Four road numbers. This is a built-up Bethlehem Car Works project. N scale P85b coaches in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Six NEW road numbers. This is a built-up Centralia Car Shops project. See http://www.intermountain-railway.com/new.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:36:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] July InterMountain Releases From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <68CC09B4-CC4E-11D8-A69D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement: The July releases have been posted to the InterMountain web site. All are for delivery later this month. Included: HO scale B60b Express Messenger cars in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Four road numbers. This is a built-up Bethlehem Car Works project. N scale P85b coaches in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Six NEW road numbers. This is a built-up Centralia Car Shops project. See http://www.intermountain-railway.com/new.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] The Latest From Broadway Limited From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: No, it's not Pennsy... So why am I posting it here? Cause it may indicate what will be coming in Pennsy down the road! BLI's latest announcement is Southern Pacific "Cab Forwards". The noteworthy feature is that these locomotives will feature "fan driven smoke units". Hmmmm. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:49:34 -0400 BLI rumor

Listers,

I was at a hobby shop at lunch and the guy said that = BLI is going to announce that they will be producing locos with = synchronized black smoke. I guess if they produce K's, I's = or H's they'll have smoke.

Chris Chany

------_=_NextPart_001_01C46065.517C4AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:36:12 -0500 BLI rumorNot a rumor. I believe they will start with smoke on a = forthcoming SP cab-forward. Didn't hear it was black, though. Isn't = it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without offending the smoke = abatement authorities ? :-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: PRR-talk=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 1:49 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor Listers,=20 I was at a hobby shop at lunch and the guy said that BLI is going to = announce that they will be producing locos with synchronized black = smoke. I guess if they produce K's, I's or H's they'll have smoke. Chris Chany=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0415_01C4605B.1148A340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" BLI rumor

Not a rumor. I believe they will = start with=20 smoke on a forthcoming SP cab-forward. Didn't hear it was = black,=20 though. Isn't it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without = offending=20 the smoke abatement authorities ? :-)

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher

To: PRR-talk

Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 = 1:49 PM

Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor

Listers,

I was at a hobby shop at lunch and the guy said that = BLI is=20 going to announce that they will be producing locos with synchronized = black=20 smoke. I guess if they produce K's, I's or H's they'll = have=20 smoke.

Chris Chany

------=_NextPart_000_0415_01C4605B.1148A340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:48:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE market. I thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the smoke feature first.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor, smoke Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:59:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jul 2004 23:09:57.0571 (UTC) FILETIME=[B15DB130:01C46089] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello Every Loyal PRR fan I don't know about "Y'all". But I am very glad to see smoke added. Just wish it had been added before to the M1, T1, etc. Having said that, I'm waiting for the H8/9/10's and E6. Or better yet, the H6 and E5. Those with sound and smoke. WOW! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 06/18/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:36:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor > From: Chany, Christopher > Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:25:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List, Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? I cannot see how a married man could possibly operate such a model in the same basement with his wife's laundry room! ;<) Gregg Mahlkov ----- ----- Alex Charyna wrote: Black smoke would be great... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:16:39 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I think smoke with a continuous stream would look best=20 coming from an ALCO diesel though. Nothin' but noise and=20 smoke. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:17:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Let's hope BLI does not perfect the smoke unit to the point of prototypical volumes. ;^} Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088821069 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Let's hope BLI does not perfect the smoke unit to the point o= f prototypical volumes. ;^}

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088821069-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Special Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:30:46 -0500 When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway = Limited? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

When did this train, started in 1902, = change its=20 name to Broadway Limited?

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Special Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:30:46 -0500 When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway = Limited? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

When did this train, started in 1902, = change its=20 name to Broadway Limited?

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:39:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > List, > > Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains > SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry > left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? > > I cannot see how a married man could possibly operate such a model in the > same basement with his wife's laundry room! ;<) Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, mooing stock cars? ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:57:45 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bruce hit my big concern here... >Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... > > What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on DCC???? We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:08:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy and the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa. Do not believe there was that much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and Harrisburg. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088824098 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy an= d the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa. Do not believe there was tha= t much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and H= arrisburg.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088824098-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:48:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2004 14:48:00.0305 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC7D5A10:01C4610C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Especially that black smoke y'all are talking about. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Friday, 02 July, 2004 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Gents, I think smoke with a continuous stream would look best coming from an ALCO diesel though. Nothin' but noise and smoke. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 06/18/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:50:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:50:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Life-Like C424 PRR #2415 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:21:07 -0400 Lists, Life-Like now has models of two PRR Alco Century series B-B Diesels in = the hobby shops. The model appears to be correct for the 2415, PRR's = only C424, when viewed in the photos in Pennsy Power II. But, the model = has the "batwing" headlight and number boards at the rear, while many = Centuries had the "notched" arrangem,ent at the rear, like the RS11's. = I can't tell which PRR 2415 had from the photos. Does anyone know which arrangement PRR 2415 actually had? I'm thinking = of buying one, even though it's out of my era, if the rear is correct. Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C46108.FB27AAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Lists,

Life-Like now has models of = two PRR Alco=20 Century series B-B Diesels in the hobby shops. The model appears to be = correct=20 for the 2415, PRR's only C424, when viewed in the photos in Pennsy Power = II.=20 But, the model has the "batwing" headlight and number boards at the = rear, while=20 many Centuries had the "notched" arrangem,ent at the rear, like the=20 RS11's. I can't tell which PRR 2415 had from the = photos.

Does anyone know which = arrangement PRR=20 2415 actually had? I'm thinking of buying one, even though it's = out of=20 my era, if the rear is correct.

Gregg=20 Mahlkov

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C46108.FB27AAD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:08:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 7/2/04 9:43:44 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes: << > List, > > Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains > SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry > left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? > > I cannot see how a married man could possibly operate such a model in the > same basement with his wife's laundry room! ;<) Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, mooing stock cars? ;^) >> ***************** When I worked for the Pennsy in labor relations, I was always amused by the locomotive engineers who had received formal discipline for "making excessive smoke." There was/is a book of work rules that contained a thou shall not with respect to smoke long after it was possible to make a lot of smoke. I have few recollections of steam locomotives but I do remember watching one go through a road crossing in downtown Hicksville, Long Island (1952?) making smoke and spewing what they call today, "particulate matter," almost cinder like chunks the size of a grain of rice. The particulate matter in black smoke for a model would have to fall somewhere. How they going to do this? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:45:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: That may explain the problem. The MTH did get this area of the model right, so I know the 3rd Rail did not do this as a compromise to get to negotiate a tight curve. Plus, 3rd Rail respond to my complaint by stating that their drawings show this gap. This reminds me of something similar. The first Bachmann N&W J was based on the GEM model. The GEM model was wrong in so many respects, it is not worth listing them, so when Bachmann made their J based on the GEM model, they just repeated the errors. Bachmann new J is a vast improvment, but they still got the nose wrong. I wish importers/ manufacturers would try to get blueprints from the railroad's repective historical societies rather than other sources. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Jul 3, 2004 2:13 PM To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net, PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 Eric and list, The actual prototype dimension you mention would have to be altered on a model to permit it to negotiate the sharper curves found on model railroads. So, the drawing probably reflects the model as built and not the real thing. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 > Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. > Thanks, > Eric > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:18:00 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI rumor From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:28:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jeff: We may want to consider insuring everyone brings his own respirator to our sessions. This could get ugly! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: "PRR Talk List" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor > Bruce hit my big concern here... > > >Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... > > > > > What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on DCC???? > We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... > > Jeff Warner > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:05:55 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob Zoeller wrote: Didn't hear it was black, though. Isn't it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without offending the smoke abatement authorities ? :-) ****************** Gary Mittner wrote: Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE market. I thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the smoke feature first. ***************** Greg Mahlkov wrote: List, Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? ***************** Bruce Smith wrote: Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, mooing stock cars? ;^) ***************** Jeff Warner wrote: What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on DCC???? We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... **************** I agree with all of the comments listed above. What will be the formulation of the stuff used to make the smoke? Will it leave an oily residue on the locomotive? (If so, might keep the side rods lubricated!!) What will be the effect on the finish of the locomotive? Will the formulation be plastic compatible and not damage the body of the locomotive? Will the locomotive have to go through the wash rack periodically? My first thought was of the old Lionel steamer with smoke I ran endlessly in circles while dropping pills down the stack to get smoke - probably 50 years ago - all the while putting stuff on the track to crash through, etc. In other words, my Toy Train phase of model railroading. Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to the New Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:14:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor After considerable thought (you can all LOL), I feel we should forget smoke units. After all, we have to leave something to the imagination and no manufacturer will ever simulate a loco's exhaust as well as our imaginations will. How about wintertime with a passenger loco crossing Rockville Bridge leaving a long lingering, white plume of exhausted steam? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088997255 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

After considerable thought (you can all LOL), I feel we should forget s= moke units. After all, we have to leave something to the imagina= tion and no manufacturer will ever simulate a loco's exhaust as we= ll as our imaginations will. How about wintertime with a passenger loc= o crossing Rockville Bridge leaving a long lingering, white plume=20= of exhausted steam?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088997255-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:49:49 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics Project From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:53:09 -0500 Listers: I have been sitting on the sidelines reading this thread. I share with = Don's view on if the smoke will create a residue on the engine or the = rest of the layout......including all of those engines and cars that we = have all tried so hard to make look just right. If residue is an issue.....then it is a deal breaker. Another item deals with the scale itself.....I doubt that you will be = able to achieve "scale smoke". From the amount of smoke, the color of = smoke and the aerodynamic characteristics of smoke, I doubt seriously if = BLI will even come close to the prototype.=20 BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of = their ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect = for the stem engines up there with the noisy stack cars that there are = coming out with.....there are just some things that are best left up to = our imagination. Those are my thoughts Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net=20 To: PRR Talk List=20 Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Bob Zoeller wrote:=20 Didn't hear it was black, though. Isn't it hard enough to get = right-of-way at home without offending the smoke abatement authorities ? = :-) ****************** Gary Mittner wrote:=20 Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE market. I = thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the smoke = feature first. ***************** Greg Mahlkov wrote:=20 List, Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because = it contains SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall = when laundry left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? ***************** Bruce Smith wrote:=20 Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the = STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, = mooing stock cars? ;^) ***************** Jeff Warner wrote:=20 What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on = DCC???? =20 We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... **************** I agree with all of the comments listed above. What will be the = formulation of the stuff used to make the smoke? Will it leave an oily = residue on the locomotive? (If so, might keep the side rods = lubricated!!) What will be the effect on the finish of the locomotive? = Will the formulation be plastic compatible and not damage the body of = the locomotive? Will the locomotive have to go through the wash rack = periodically? =20 My first thought was of the old Lionel steamer with smoke I ran = endlessly in circles while dropping pills down the stack to get smoke - = probably 50 years ago - all the while putting stuff on the track to = crash through, etc. In other words, my Toy Train phase of model = railroading. Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to the New Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at = http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need.=20 New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_07DE_01C4626D.7F312120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Listers:

I have been sitting on the sidelines reading this thread. I = share=20 with Don's view on if the smoke will create a residue on the engine or = the rest=20 of the layout......including all of those engines and cars that we = have all=20 tried so hard to make look just right.

If residue is an issue.....then it is a deal breaker.

Another item deals with the scale itself.....I doubt that you will = be able=20 to achieve "scale smoke". From the amount of smoke, the color of smoke = and the=20 aerodynamic characteristics of smoke, I doubt seriously if BLI will even = come=20 close to the prototype.

BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of = their=20 ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect = for the=20 stem engines up there with the noisy stack cars that there are coming = out=20 with.....there are just some things that are best left up to our=20 imagination.

Those are my thoughts

Ted Andrews

----- Original Message -----

From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net=

To: PRR Talk List

Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 = 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI = rumor

Bob Zoeller wrote:
Didn't hear it was black, = though. =20 Isn't it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without offending the = smoke=20 abatement authorities ? :-)
******************
Gary Mittner = wrote:=20
Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE = market. I=20 thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the = smoke=20 feature first.
*****************
Greg Mahlkov wrote:
List, = Has it=20 not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it = contains SOOT=20 - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry = left=20 outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned=20 gray?
*****************
Bruce Smith wrote:
Nor do I want to = think of=20 that crap all over my track...
Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit = that even=20 faintly resembled the STEAM
output of a steam locomotive. Toy = train=20 nonsense - what's next, mooing
stock cars? = ;^)
*****************
Jeff=20 Warner wrote:
What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, = especially=20 on DCC????
We don't have the same contact areas that O scale = does...
****************
I agree with all of the comments listed = above. What will be the formulation of the stuff used to make = the=20 smoke? Will it leave an oily residue on the locomotive? (If so, = might=20 keep the side rods lubricated!!) What will be the effect on the finish = of the=20 locomotive? Will the formulation be plastic compatible and not = damage=20 the body of the locomotive? Will the locomotive have to go = through the=20 wash rack periodically?
My first thought was of the old = Lionel=20 steamer with smoke I ran endlessly in circles while dropping pills = down the=20 stack to get smoke - probably 50 years ago - all the while putting = stuff on=20 the track to crash through, etc. In other words, my Toy Train = phase of=20 model=20 = railroading.

Don
Arizona

_______________________= ___________________________________________
Switch=20 to the New Netscape Internet Service.
As low as $9.95 a month -- = Sign up=20 today at http://isp.netscape.com/registe= r

Netscape.=20 Just the Net You Need.

New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet=20 Explorer
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying=20 pop-ups.
Download now at http://channe= ls.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

------------------------= -----------------------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------=_NextPart_000_07DE_01C4626D.7F312120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Smoke Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:29:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms. Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes. Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them to the outside! Problems solved! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Data plates on Pennsy SD-45s Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:38:26 -0400 From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Smoke Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:34:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: William Bigler writes: The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms. Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes. Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them to the outside! Problems solved! --------------------------------------- Until the local environment protection department officer hears of this! Gregg Mahlkov PRRT&HS #7418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:52:33 -0700 Subject: [PRR] X25 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <7973E574-CEB4-11D8-80D4-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-74 ip=216.93.195.155 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi groups, I'm going to build an X25 lettered for ARE. My lettering diagrams for ARE and Adams are otherwise identical. I know about assumptions but is it reasonable to assume that the cars would be cleaned only where they are re-lettered? I'm planning how to weather the car. Thanks. Greg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Smoke Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:25:08 +0000 Better yet model Pittsburgh and nobody will know if you have ar railroad or not. -------------- Original message from "Gregg Mahlkov" : -------------- > > William Bigler writes: > > > The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once > we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms. > Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some > enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes. > Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them > to the outside! Problems solved! > > --------------------------------------- > > Until the local environment protection department officer hears of this! > > Gregg Mahlkov > PRRT&HS #7418 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_22811_1089059108_0 Content-Type: text/html Better yet model Pittsburgh and nobody will know if you have ar railroad or not.

-------------- Original message from "Gregg Mahlkov" : --------------
>
> William Bigler writes:
>
>
> The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once
> we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms.
> Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some
> enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes.
> Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them
> to the outside! Problems solved!
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Until the local environment protection department officer hears of this!
>
> Gregg Mahlkov
> PRRT&HS #7418
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
& --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_22811_1089059108_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sd40-blue@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:45:42 +0000 Saw the same units working over the weekend. They are radio controlled. The loco sends back a message with what operation it's performing (braking, etc.). It really jams up the scanner!! -------------- Original message -------------- > Greetings, > I spent a couple of hours Wed Jun 30 on the "iron > bridge" (which is now a concrete bridge) on the west > end of Enola yard and I'm happy to report that it was > almost as busy as the "old days". I'm not so happy > that auto traffic is so heavy and that they whiz by so > fast. A question: there was a set of units doing > switching, a GP38-2 and 2 SW units (still in Conrail > blue) that had 2 flashing amber lights on the roof of > the GP unit. They appeared to me to be unmanned > remotely controlled units. Can anyone verify? > Joe > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21209_1089063942_0 Content-Type: text/html Saw the same units working over the weekend. They are radio controlled. The loco sends back a message with what operation it's performing (braking, etc.). It really jams up the scanner!!

-------------- Original message --------------

> Greetings,
> I spent a couple of hours Wed Jun 30 on the "iron
> bridge" (which is now a concrete bridge) on the west
> end of Enola yard and I'm happy to report that it was
> almost as busy as the "old days". I'm not so happy
> that auto traffic is so heavy and that they whiz by so
> fast. A question: there was a set of units doing
> switching, a GP38-2 and 2 SW units (still in Conrail
> blue) that had 2 flashing amber lights on the roof of
> the GP unit. They appeared to me to be unmanned
> remotely controlled units. Can anyone verify?
> Joe
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
> ---- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21209_1089063942_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:57:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Altoona Over the Fourth? X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRRers - Any reports yet on the festivities at the Altoona Curve over the 4th of July? There apparently was some sort of fireworks accident at Pittstown (?) near Pittsburgh. Have seen no reports yet on the Vice President's attendance or of an extraordinary flash picture of the curve. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:04:45 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] test message --------------Boundary-00=_XRIEG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1"

--------------Boundary-00=_XRIEG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:29:42 GMT Subject: [PRR] Smoke From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:34:21 GMT Subject: [PRR] Smoke, pt. 2 From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:34:21 GMT Subject: [PRR] Smoke, pt. 2 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:03:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Data plates on Pennsy SD-45s MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: You are referring to the trust plates. I'll look through my slides and see of I can read what it says. I think it reads: First Bank of Pennsylvania Trustee, Owner-Agent.(?). I'm not sure. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Polling Forum Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:57:34 -0400 The PRRT&HS has added a series of questions to its website Polling Forum. Please take some time and register your thoughts and desires in the areas of concern. This will help us in some way to shape our editorial policies for TKM and The Keystone. You can only vote once so things can not get too slanted. Visit the polling forum at: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_Infoexch.html Check out the rest of the Society's website at w ww.prrths.com > National Thanx. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C462E3.77F8F880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
The PRRT&HS has added a series = of=20 questions to its website Polling Forum.=20 Please take some time and register your thoughts and desires = in the areas of concern. This will help us in some = way to=20 shape our editorial policies for TKM and The Keystone. You can only vote once so things can not get = too=20 slanted.

Visit the polling forum at: http://www.prrths.com/= Phila_Infoexch.html

Check out the rest of the = Society's website=20 at www.prrths.com > National = Thanx.

Al=20
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C462E3.77F8F880-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] HO scale F22 models Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:39:32 -0500 To: "'PRR-Talk TALK''" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Folks, In the August RMC, Crown Custom Imports (crowncustom@erols.com) is advertising the "PRR F22 flat car with load support pivot, F/P" for $135. Crown Custom Imports has taken over Railworks, and these cars will be the same (or nearly) as those brought in by Railworks. I just spoke with Bob, and these cars are expected in about 3 weeks. They are doing 4 numbers, and the cars will be painted a "pre war" FCC. I have no affiliation with them... just a PSA for those looking for a couple of gun flats. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Use of early GG-1s in Freight service Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:03:39 -0400 From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Use of early GG-1s in Freight service Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:03:39 -0400 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: X25 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:10:40 +0000 Greg Ritacco asked: "I'm going to build an X25 lettered for ARE. My lettering diagrams for ARE and Adams are otherwise identical. I know about assumptions but is it reasonable to assume that the cars would be cleaned only where they are re-lettered? I'm planning how to weather the car." Without a photo, it's impossible to give you a definitive answer; however, one of the the following things probably happened: - Without cleaning the carside, the car shop simply painted a patch of FCC over "ADAMS RAILWAY" and stenciled "AMERICAN RAILWAY" over the patch. (The patch appears clean because it's new paint.) - The entire car was repainted, relettered, and placed back into service. Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27550_1089130240_0 Content-Type: text/html Greg Ritacco asked:
"I'm going to build an X25 lettered for ARE. My lettering diagrams for ARE and Adams are otherwise identical. I know about assumptions but is it reasonable to assume that the cars would be cleaned only
where they are re-lettered? I'm planning how to weather the car."

Without a photo, it's impossible to give you a definitive answer; however, one of the the following things probably happened:

- Without cleaning the carside, the car shop simply painted a patch of FCC over "ADAMS RAILWAY" and stenciled "AMERICAN RAILWAY" over the patch. (The patch appears clean because it's new paint.)

- The entire car was repainted, relettered, and placed back into service.

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27550_1089130240_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:31:16 +0000 Ted Andrews wrote: "BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of their ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect for the steam engines up there with the noisy stock cars that they are coming out with.....there are just some things that are best left up to our imagination." Lots of opinions expressed about this; however, if you don't want these features, there are two approaches we can take: 1. Provide direct feedback to BLI. Case in point - originally, the Class K7A stock cars were not going to be offered without sound. After receiving consumer feedback, BLI is now offering them in four-packs without sound. Here's their contact info: E-Mail: info@broadway-limited.com Phone: (540) 949-8300 Fax: (540) 949-8377 Broadway Limited Imports, LLC 601 Shenandoah Village Drive, STE 9E/F Waynesboro, VA 22980 2. If you don't like it, don't buy it! Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy locomotives that smoke or stock cars that moo or oink. If you want the stock cars, reserve the ones without sound. Excess inventory speaks louder than words in the retail business. Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_16448_1089131476_0 Content-Type: text/html
Ted Andrews wrote:
"BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of their ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect for the steam engines up there with the noisy stock cars that they are coming out with.....there are just some things that are best left up to our imagination."

Lots of opinions expressed about this; however, if you don't want these features, there are two approaches we can take:

1. Provide direct feedback to BLI. Case in point - originally, the Class K7A stock cars were not going to be offered without sound. After receiving consumer feedback, BLI is now offering them in four-packs without sound. Here's their contact info:

E-Mail: info@broadway-limited.com

Phone: (540) 949-8300
Fax: (540) 949-8377

Broadway Limited Imports, LLC
601 Shenandoah Village Drive, STE 9E/F
Waynesboro, VA 22980

2. If you don't like it, don't buy it! Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy locomotives that smoke or stock cars that moo or oink. If you want the stock cars, reserve the ones without sound. Excess inventory speaks louder than words in the retail business.

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_16448_1089131476_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:48:55 -0400 From: RamblingReck Subject: [PRR] Name The Painting-The Winner is... And the winner is.... Actually, I had a lot of people who liked Wilmington Memories. I though that maybe I had seen too many paintings named " Blank Memories", so I picked "Business As Usual". I felt that the title conveyed the idea of the wide variety of Pennsy's passenger business, as well as my regular use of the Pennsy travelling to NY and Philly. Thanks for the great title go to Greg Martin. Greg can contact me off list to talk about his reward. John Ryan --------------000106070503000704080802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii And the winner is....

Actually, I had a lot of people who liked Wilmington Memories. I though that maybe I had seen too many paintings named " Blank Memories", so I picked "Business As Usual". I felt that the title conveyed the idea of the wide variety of Pennsy's passenger business, as well as my regular use of the Pennsy travelling to NY and Philly.

Thanks for the great title go to Greg Martin. Greg can contact me off list to talk about his reward.

John Ryan

--------------000106070503000704080802-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:10:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor - smoke One last comment on this subject. What will the current draw of the smoke unit be? With lighted pass. cars and multiple engines running, would this cause voltage drop problems on a DCC layout? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1089166239 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
One last comment on this subject. What will the current draw of t= he smoke unit be? With lighted pass. cars and multiple engines running= , would this cause voltage drop problems on a DCC layout?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1089166239-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:11:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a problem, the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it. Best regards, John Liebeskind -------------------------------1089202283 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a probl= em,=20 the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it.

Best regards,

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1089202283-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:11:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a problem, the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it. Best regards, John Liebeskind -------------------------------1089202283 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a probl= em,=20 the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it.

Best regards,

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1089202283-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:34:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List, John's E-mail message: "I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a problem, the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it". Best regards, John Liebeskind end email message List, I'd rather see a 4th option. If BLI is determined to release the locos with smoke, they need to offer the locos without the smoke system as well. Yes, it is easy for the consumer to snip the wires or turn the smoke option off but if it is never planned on being used, why pay for its installation. Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in fan going to take up in the boiler. What has to be removed for its installation? Most likely the Metal Weight. The locos too light as it is now. Remember, this isn't 027 type locos with cast metal boilers for the main weght. And think of this. Will the fan be turning off and on 4 times per revoulution of the drivers so it is in sync with the exhuast sounds? I think not. I think the majority of the posts here show the opinion of the smoke being nothing more than a cool gimmick, a problem causer in the smaller scale and downright unprototypical.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:54:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'd have to recheck, but I thought the T, M, and J classes left space already for a Seuthe type smoke generator. Dunno about a fan. However, I have already used some of that for lead weight anyway. I have no opinion re the smoke units. I am not a hennypenny about power drain, etc, but I am skeptical it could be realistic enough to bother. BTW, without the sales volume of the "toy train" crowd (which constitute the major segment of "model railroaders"), we would probably have to pay another $100 to each loco anyway. IMNSHO. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" > Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in > fan going to take up in the boiler. What has to be removed for its > installation? Most likely the Metal Weight. The locos too light as it > is now. Remember, this isn't 027 type locos with cast metal boilers for ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:22:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] FA: Centennial History Just caught sight of an auction for a copy of the Centennial History on eBay: item #6910689674, initial bid price of $15.95. I have no interest in this auction. Best wishes. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_198.2b741ac1.2e1d6139_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Just caught s= ight of an auction for a copy of the Centennial History on eBay:
item #6910689674, initial bid price of $15.95.=20

I have no interest in this auction.

Best wishes.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_198.2b741ac1.2e1d6139_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:37:01 +0000 I don't think they look realistic when running but if it had a DCC address it could be kind of neat to turn it on and off while in the engine terminal like it was being fired up and hadn't developed enough draft yet. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Bob Zoeller" : -------------- > I'd have to recheck, but I thought the T, M, and J classes left space > already for a Seuthe type smoke generator. Dunno about a fan. However, I > have already used some of that for lead weight anyway. > > I have no opinion re the smoke units. I am not a hennypenny about power > drain, etc, but I am skeptical it could be realistic enough to bother. BTW, > without the sales volume of the "toy train" crowd (which constitute the > major segment of "model railroaders"), we would probably have to pay another > $100 to each loco anyway. IMNSHO. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Mittner" > > Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in > > fan going to take up in the boiler. What has to be removed for its > > installation? Most likely the Metal Weight. The locos too light as it > > is now. Remember, this isn't 027 type locos with cast metal boilers for > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15527_1089211021_0 Content-Type: text/html I don't think they look realistic when running but if it had a DCC address it could be kind of neat to turn it on and off while in the engine terminal like it was being fired up and hadn't developed enough draft yet. Norm Bell

-------------- Original message from "Bob Zoeller" : --------------
> I'd have to recheck, but I thought the T, M, and J classes left space
> already for a Seuthe type smoke generator. Dunno about a fan. However, I
> have already used some of that for lead weight anyway.
>
> I have no opinion re the smoke units. I am not a hennypenny about power
> drain, etc, but I am skeptical it could be realistic enough to bother. BTW,
> without the sales volume of the "toy train" crowd (which constitute the
> major segment of "model railroaders"), we would probably have to pay another
> $100 to each loco anyway. IMNSHO.
>
> Bob Zoeller
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Mittner"
> > Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in
> --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15527_1089211021_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] BLI smoke and other Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:36:09 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gentelmen, The price issue was brought up. BLI is adding $30 for the=20 smoke unit. The price without smoke has stayed the same. I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the addition to the=20 webpage for EMD F7's with trainphones, A&B powered for=20 $419 with two sets of A&B and one B unit. I'd be curious=20 as to which phase and paint scheme they'll be doing. Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. MLiebeskin@aol.com wrote: I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current=20 draw is a problem, =20 the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should=20 solve it. Best regards, John Liebeskind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] FW: The PRRT&HS MOdeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:18:19 -0700

Hi = all;

&n= bsp;

On = this, the first anniversary of the Modeling Committee and "The Keystone Modeler", I would like to take the time to thank all of your for your = enthusiastic support and words of encouragement.

&n= bsp;

We = have genuinely enjoyed participating in, writing, editing, and putting = together this labor of love that is the Committee, its various works, and its = magazine.

&n= bsp;

And on = this subject, I would like to ask your opinions on subjects = you would be interested in us covering=in upcoming issues of "The Keystone Modeler". =

Are there any specific cars/diesels/steam = engines/electrics/MW/structures/infrastructure you'd like to see investigated and modeled? Is there any = info
you'veseen that would go well with a subject-specific = project?

While there are a number of classes of = gondolas and covered hoppers we have covered so far, and we are making significant = headway into the X29 project,
F30A project, PRR Pro's interactive project teaming process, and others, we would like to know what particular = subjects you think would make a good project.

And, on the subject of providing the right = type of data, are we giving you what you want on these subjects? Enough prototype data? Photos? Are they
large/detailedenough to show you what you need to know? Does the text cover the = subject well enough? Are any instructions clear? Anything = else
youwant us to know?

Are there other things you can think of that you = would like to see us get involved in?

Jack made the comment that it is especially = gratifying to see people that did not generally participate coming out and writing fine = articles for us. Thank you so = much, authors and contributors. You = have made our job a genuine pleasure.

Jack also commented that maybe our coverage of = otherwise obscure subjects will encourage other authors to come out and submit articles = and photos on those subjects. = What are you waiting for?

In addition, I would like to tell you all that we = should giveAl = Buchana medal. He has acted as = our key craftsman, encourager, engineer, arbiter, and supporter, for these past = 12 months. There is not = enough I can express in my appreciation for what he done for all of us. While his modeling goals (and = layout) have suffered as a result, he has given us all a piece of what he has = forgone. Thanks, = Al.

To Greg Martin, thanks for everything you've done, recognized or not, over the past year. I know it has been a tough one. And for you to have suffered a loss such as yours, and continued = to keep on plugging for us throughout, showed us what you are made = of.

&n= bsp;

And, = on a final note, I'd like to personally thank those generous individuals that thought enough of us to send a donation to the PRRT&HS for our support. You are = wonderful people, and we really appreciate this demonstration of = support.

Thanks for everything, including any = feedback!

Elden = Gatwood
PRRT&HS Modeling = Committee

=
P.S. For those of you that have not = heard, there are some outstanding projects in the wings. And for those that are not = PRRT&HS members, you ought to think about joining, post haste. The upcoming F-unit articles = in The Keystone will alone be MORE than worth the cost of admission. I have seen the draft(s). Simply = amazing. This will knock your socks = off, folks!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4644E.C748B878-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] FW: The PRRT&HS MOdeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:18:19 -0700

Hi = all;

&n= bsp;

On = this, the first anniversary of the Modeling Committee and "The Keystone Modeler", I would like to take the time to thank all of your for your = enthusiastic support and words of encouragement.

&n= bsp;

We = have genuinely enjoyed participating in, writing, editing, and putting = together this labor of love that is the Committee, its various works, and its = magazine.

&n= bsp;

And on = this subject, I would like to ask your opinions on subjects = you would be interested in us covering=in upcoming issues of "The Keystone Modeler". =

Are there any specific cars/diesels/steam = engines/electrics/MW/structures/infrastructure you'd like to see investigated and modeled? Is there any = info
you'veseen that would go well with a subject-specific = project?

While there are a number of classes of = gondolas and covered hoppers we have covered so far, and we are making significant = headway into the X29 project,
F30A project, PRR Pro's interactive project teaming process, and others, we would like to know what particular = subjects you think would make a good project.

And, on the subject of providing the right = type of data, are we giving you what you want on these subjects? Enough prototype data? Photos? Are they
large/detailedenough to show you what you need to know? Does the text cover the = subject well enough? Are any instructions clear? Anything = else
youwant us to know?

Are there other things you can think of that you = would like to see us get involved in?

Jack made the comment that it is especially = gratifying to see people that did not generally participate coming out and writing fine = articles for us. Thank you so = much, authors and contributors. You = have made our job a genuine pleasure.

Jack also commented that maybe our coverage of = otherwise obscure subjects will encourage other authors to come out and submit articles = and photos on those subjects. = What are you waiting for?

In addition, I would like to tell you all that we = should giveAl = Buchana medal. He has acted as = our key craftsman, encourager, engineer, arbiter, and supporter, for these past = 12 months. There is not = enough I can express in my appreciation for what he done for all of us. While his modeling goals (and = layout) have suffered as a result, he has given us all a piece of what he has = forgone. Thanks, = Al.

To Greg Martin, thanks for everything you've done, recognized or not, over the past year. I know it has been a tough one. And for you to have suffered a loss such as yours, and continued = to keep on plugging for us throughout, showed us what you are made = of.

&n= bsp;

And, = on a final note, I'd like to personally thank those generous individuals that thought enough of us to send a donation to the PRRT&HS for our support. You are = wonderful people, and we really appreciate this demonstration of = support.

Thanks for everything, including any = feedback!

Elden = Gatwood
PRRT&HS Modeling = Committee

=
P.S. For those of you that have not = heard, there are some outstanding projects in the wings. And for those that are not = PRRT&HS members, you ought to think about joining, post haste. The upcoming F-unit articles = in The Keystone will alone be MORE than worth the cost of admission. I have seen the draft(s). Simply = amazing. This will knock your socks = off, folks!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4644E.C748B878-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:52:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:
The following was posted on the MR Express part of modelrailroader.com:<= /P>
Life-Like Products will be releasing HO scale United States Railroad Adm= inistration heavy 2-10-2s, Alco RS-27s, and General Electric U30Bs and U28B= s in late 2005. The 2-10-2s will be part of the firm=92s Proto 2000 Heritag= e line; road names have yet to be announced.

My hope is that Life-Like gives us the Pennsy version with the Belpair f= irebox that was added to their USRA heavy 2-10-2's. Life-like did different= boilers for their 2-8-4's, so why not the 2-10-2's. I will be emailing thi= s suggestion to Life-Like.

Eric Lauterbach

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:24:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Boy, how can top secret projects get out to the pubic so quickly? As far as I know, no, the 2-10-2 will be strickly the N2 non-Belpair version. It would be possible however for an after market company to make a resin casting firebox to fit onto the boiler to help turn it into the more desirable N2sa. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] The PRRT&HS MOdeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:49:14 -0500 Thanks to everyone on the modeling committee and TKM. It is hard to believe that so much information has been offered / shared in just one year. The model railroading community has a fine example to follow. I have to believe that assisting the manufactures (aka arm twisting) with painting and lettering data has been a CHALLENGE. Some progress has been made in getting it right the first time. Mr. English, will you please listen too. I look forward to every new Keystone Modeler. Model reviews that the reader can trust. And offered in PDF format yet, Thanks!! It is a great time to be a PRR modeler. Pete Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C46439.F4FAD810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Thanks to everyone on the modeling committee and TKM. It is hard to believe that so much information has = been offered / shared in just one year. The model railroading community has a = fine example to follow.

   I have to believe that assisting the manufactures (aka arm twisting) with painting and = lettering data has been a CHALLENGE. Some progress has been made in getting it right = the first time. Mr. English, will you please listen too. =

   I look forward to = every new Keystone Modeler. Model reviews that the reader can trust. And offered in PDF = format yet, Thanks!!

It is a great time to be a = PRR modeler.

Pete = Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C46439.F4FAD810-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: [PRR] More on Gunbarrels Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:26:56 -0700 From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:39:47 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Processed: mail.aspects.net, Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:40:13 +0100 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 194.164.118.182 X-Return-Path: pgrace@aspects.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Reply-To: pgrace@aspects.net X-MDAV-Processed: mail.aspects.net, Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:40:16 +0100 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: An overlay kit from resin is not a bad idea as long as it includes all other castings needed to make a Pennsy loco, it is about as big as want to go... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? > Boy, how can top secret projects get out to the pubic so quickly? As far > as I know, no, the 2-10-2 will be strickly the N2 non-Belpair version. > It would be possible however for an after market company to make a resin > casting firebox to fit onto the boiler to help turn it into the more > desirable N2sa. .....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:25:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Lists, Anyone know what kind, if any, doorways were located at the rear of the Aerotrain Locomotive or was this a no access area at the rear? I looked at the photos on Bowser's website showing the construction and shown there appears to be closed frame work where it looks like a doorway would be fit in. But no other good photos show much more. Anyone know of some other good Aerotrain construction photos? Also, if anyone here has the Railworks version of the Aerotrain could you please share with me what they did when it came to any loco back door. A good .JPG file would be much appreciated to satisfy my curiosity......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:21:16 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] HSC 150th report Greetings to all: I posted the following on the Railway Preservation bulletin board and thought it would be of interest here: =========================================== Here's a quick summary of the Independence Day Horseshoe Curve 150th anniversary celebration: The HSC light train was drawn, fore and aft, by freshly painted Norfolk Southern GE Dash 9's, 9822 and 9828, each with HSC commemorative 150th anniversary magnetic logos affixed to the sides of their noses. The consist was 10 brand-new, never-used-in-revenue-service DTTX three-pack container well cars, spliced by a commemorative boxcar bearing the logos of all four owners of HSC -- PRR, PC, CR, and NS. The well cars held generators, strobe lights, detail lights, and spotlights, the latter of which were synchronized and choreographed for the light show with the multiple spotlights placed at parking-lot level and in the trackside park. The downpour was predicted and most of the approximately 3,000 patrons were well prepared with ponchos, rain hats, umbrellas, etc. The Vice President did appear at the Altoona Curve minor-league baseball game in the evening but the rain was relentless (the game against the Harrisburg Senators was called after eight innings) and his appearance at the HSC 150th event was canceled. (Secret Service agents had been checking out Altoona and HSC for six weeks). As dusk arrived, the westbound Amtrak 41 (Three Rivers)was about the last, if not the last, regular train to pass through the Curve before rail traffic was stopped for the festivities. NS Chairman David Goode and guests arrived aboard the NS business train on No. 1 track and disembarked, after which the business train moved out of sight. It was powered by two new SD70Ms. The rain cleared about a half-hour before the light show began. The light train was held just out of range until the program began, when the train moved westward on No. 2 track at about 5 mph to the accompaniment of live music. The train stopped with the boxcar at the apex of the Curve. The engines and boxcar had their own individual side lighting, and the nose of the 9822 was also illuminated with lamps that changed brilliant colors. The light show, which lit up the mountainsides in all directions, continued for several minutes until a 30-minute fireworks show began. At the conclusion of the fireworks, the NS business train returned to gather its passengers, and the light train began to return down the mountain to Altoona. As for the vegetation, the east side has been cleared to signal bridge 2416, opening that arc of the vista considerably, compared to what it had been. (i.e., from the parking lot, one can easily see the trains on No. 1 and No. 2 track now at that segment of the Curve). Much more remains to be done, and the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, administrator of the HSC National Historic Landmark, has plans to continue the clearing, but a caveat here: Anyone expecting to see the clear-cut conditions shown in the 1952 PRR calendar painting recreated will be disappointed. The event was conducted in such a way that those visitors on the lower level saw most if not all of the light show and the vegetation wasn't an issue. Those on the upper level saw much more of the train, but aside from the engines and boxcar, the darkened well cars weren't much to look at since the real attraction of the evening was the light show and the fireworks. The only complaints I heard were about the rain, and even that was mild because people did come prepared. A lot of things could have come unraveled or gone wrong, but they didn't. It was a worthwhile celebration that shows what's possible when cooperation occurs among a nonprofit (ARMM), a corporate sponsor (OSRAM Sylvania) and a common carrier (NS), along with many theatrical lighting consultants, rigging experts, and other subcontractors. Congratulations to ARMM exec. director Scott Cessna and his board and staff for having the vision to propose this and carry it through. Daniel Burnham, architect of Washington Union Station and PRR's Union Station, Pittsburgh, once said: "Make no little plans. They have no power to stir men's blood." Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------080702000306040804050902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Greetings to all:

I posted the following on the Railway Preservation bulletin board and thought it would be of interest here:

===========================================

Here's a quick summary of the Independence Day Horseshoe Curve 150th anniversary celebration:

The HSC light train was drawn, fore and aft, by freshly painted Norfolk Southern GE Dash 9's, 9822 and 9828, each with HSC commemorative 150th anniversary magnetic logos affixed to the sides of their noses.

The consist was 10 brand-new, never-used-in-revenue-service DTTX three-pack container well cars, spliced by a commemorative boxcar bearing the logos of all four owners of HSC -- PRR, PC, CR, and NS. The well cars held generators, strobe lights, detail lights, and spotlights, the latter of which were synchronized and choreographed for the light show with the multiple spotlights placed at parking-lot level and in the trackside park.

The downpour was predicted and most of the approximately 3,000 patrons were well prepared with ponchos, rain hats, umbrellas, etc. The Vice President did appear at the Altoona Curve minor-league baseball game in the evening but the rain was relentless (the game against the Harrisburg Senators was called after eight innings) and his appearance at the HSC 150th event was canceled. (Secret Service agents had been checking out Altoona and HSC for six weeks).

As dusk arrived, the westbound Amtrak 41 (Three Rivers)was about the last, if not the last, regular train to pass through the Curve before rail traffic was stopped for the festivities. NS Chairman David Goode and guests arrived aboard the NS business train on No. 1 track and disembarked, after which the business train moved out of sight. It was powered by two new SD70Ms.

The rain cleared about a half-hour before the light show began. The light train was held just out of range until the program began, when the train moved westward on No. 2 track at about 5 mph to the accompaniment of live music. The train stopped with the boxcar at the apex of the Curve. The engines and boxcar had their own individual side lighting, and the nose of the 9822 was also illuminated with lamps that changed brilliant colors. The light show, which lit up the mountainsides in all directions, continued for several minutes until a 30-minute fireworks show began. At the conclusion of the fireworks, the NS business train returned to gather its passengers, and the light train began to return down the mountain to Altoona.

As for the vegetation, the east side has been cleared to signal bridge 2416, opening that arc of the vista considerably, compared to what it had been. (i.e., from the parking lot, one can easily see the trains on No. 1 and No. 2 track now at that segment of the Curve). Much more remains to be done, and the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, administrator of the HSC National Historic Landmark, has plans to continue the clearing, but a caveat here: Anyone expecting to see the clear-cut conditions shown in the 1952 PRR calendar painting recreated will be disappointed.

The event was conducted in such a way that those visitors on the lower level saw most if not all of the light show and the vegetation wasn't an issue. Those on the upper level saw much more of the train, but aside from the engines and boxcar, the darkened well cars weren't much to look at since the real attraction of the evening was the light show and the fireworks. The only complaints I heard were about the rain, and even that was mild because people did come prepared.

A lot of things could have come unraveled or gone wrong, but they didn't. It was a worthwhile celebration that shows what's possible when cooperation occurs among a nonprofit (ARMM), a corporate sponsor (OSRAM Sylvania) and a common carrier (NS), along with many theatrical lighting consultants, rigging experts, and other subcontractors.

Congratulations to ARMM exec. director Scott Cessna and his board and staff for having the vision to propose this and carry it through. Daniel Burnham, architect of Washington Union Station and PRR's Union Station, Pittsburgh, once said: "Make no little plans. They have no power to stir men's blood."
Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
--------------080702000306040804050902-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:34:55 -0400 From: Ian Macoy Subject: RE: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:02:54 -0400 From: Ian Macoy [mailto:IMACOY@NACHA.ORG] Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Macoy PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Location of From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:30:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just got a Con-Cor catalog (MR must have sold them my name) and in it they offer a Pennsy 4-8-4 in 3 road number. (8750, 8752, and 8755) (Which real engines wore these numbers in the 50's anyway) According to Con-Cor: "The Pennsy Version of the 4-8-4 features a coal bunker tender, and a new smoke box door on the front of the boiler that features a top mounted headlight and PRR Keystone loco (probably meant logo) in the middle of the smokebox door." I wonder how close these will be to the theoretical R1 discussed in the Keystone a few years back.? Wonder if I should cancel my BLI order and get all three :-) They are also offering the Galloping Goose Railbus in PRR. Con-Cor is one of the last of the breed out there blatantly making up paint schemes for sales. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:52:38 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Brian: 8750 and 8752 were B6 class locos. 8755 was an F26. Dont' want to ruin your day, but the new Con-cor 4-8-4 is N scale and BLI is HO only... Of course, maybe that isn't important as collecting all the different PRR 4-8-4's available... In case anyone wants a good laugh, pictures of the new con-cor offering are here: http://www.all-railroads.com/whatsnew/adapt484.htm Jeff Warner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:14:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Brian, Jeff, and list, The N scale Con-Cor PRR 4-8-4 is an SP GS4 without skirting that has had the smokebox changed and the oil bunker replaced with a coal pile. It is also offered in other non-prototype roads, i.e. UP and D&RGW. Con-Cor makes no pretense that it is an accurate model. Sorta (and that's very sorta) resembles a Q2 minus a set of cylinders and drivers, as well as the Belpaire! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: "Brian J Carlson" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 > Brian: > > 8750 and 8752 were B6 class locos. 8755 was an F26. > > Dont' want to ruin your day, but the new Con-cor 4-8-4 is N scale and > BLI is HO only... Of course, maybe that isn't important as collecting > all the different PRR 4-8-4's available... In case anyone wants a good > laugh, pictures of the new con-cor offering are here: > > http://www.all-railroads.com/whatsnew/adapt484.htm > > Jeff Warner > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:58:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <002301c46493$7dc8d3a0$7754c840@b6x9501> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What a photo op. You could double head your PRR 4-8-4 with your PRR Galloping Goose! Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:30 PM To: PRR Talk; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Just got a Con-Cor catalog (MR must have sold them my name) and in it = they offer a Pennsy 4-8-4 in 3 road number. (8750, 8752, and 8755) (Which = real engines wore these numbers in the 50's anyway) According to Con-Cor: "The Pennsy Version of the 4-8-4 features a coal bunker tender, and a new smoke box door on the front of the boiler that features a top mounted headlight and PRR Keystone loco (probably meant = logo) in the middle of the smokebox door." I wonder how close these will be to = the theoretical R1 discussed in the Keystone a few years back.? Wonder if I should cancel my BLI order and get all three :-) They are also offering the Galloping Goose Railbus in PRR. Con-Cor is one of the last of the breed out there blatantly making up = paint schemes for sales. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Class X29 AB Brake Drawings Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:20:56 +0000 Does anyone have copies available of the following X29 brake arrangement drawings? C-99852 (1932-1934) C-408806 I assume C-99852 is for the corrugated end cars as built and C-408806 is for conversion from "K" brakes on older cars, but I have never seen these drawings and don't know for sure. I will pay all reproduction and shipping costs. Please contact me off list if you can help. Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_13324_1089307256_0 Content-Type: text/html
Does anyone have copies available of the following X29 brake arrangement drawings?

C-99852 (1932-1934)

C-408806

I assume C-99852 is for the corrugated end cars as built and C-408806 is for conversion from "K" brakes on older cars, but I have never seen these drawings and don't know for sure.

I will pay all reproduction and shipping costs. Please contact me off list if you can help.

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_13324_1089307256_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:19:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - Aero train X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5-6,8,10-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: caples5@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have a photo from the Aero train at the National Transportation Musuem in St. Louis, Mo. It is a Rock Island train but I don't know if it ran on the PRR before being sold to R.I. or not. The photo shows the rear of the loco and there is NO DOOR there. It is just a flat metal surface. Now my Bowser model has what looks like a recess that suggests that a door should be there. I don't know if there was any differences between the different Aero Trains or not. Anyone needing a photo can e-mail me off list . John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - Aero train Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:14:45 +0000 I believe the Aerotrain that ran on the PRR is the one in the Green Bay museum. Perhaps contacting them could shed some light on the one of interest. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from caples5@juno.com: -------------- > I have a photo from the Aero train at the National Transportation Musuem > in St. Louis, Mo. > It is a Rock Island train but I don't know if it ran on the PRR before > being sold to R.I. or not. > The photo shows the rear of the loco and there is NO DOOR there. It is > just a flat metal surface. > > Now my Bowser model has what looks like a recess that suggests that a > door should be there. > I don't know if there was any differences between the different Aero > Trains or not. > > Anyone needing a photo can e-mail me off list . > John Caples > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2456_1089328485_0 Content-Type: text/html I believe the Aerotrain that ran on the PRR is the one in the Green Bay museum. Perhaps contacting them could shed some light on the one of interest. Norm Bell

-------------- Original message from caples5@juno.com: --------------
> I have a photo from the Aero train at the National Transportation Musuem
> in St. Louis, Mo.
> It is a Rock Island train but I don't know if it ran on the PRR before
> being sold to R.I. or not.
> The photo shows the rear of the loco and there is NO DOOR there. It is
> just a flat metal surface.
>
> Now my Bowser model has what looks like a recess that suggests that a
> door should be there.
> I don't know if there was any differences between the different Aero
> Trains or not.
>
> Anyone needing a photo can e-mail me off list .
> John Caples
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2456_1089328485_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] BBMRA train show 7/10/04 in Tallahassee, FL Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:41:26 -0400 List, I will again have my N scle 2 ft. by 4 ft. layout in operation at the = train show in Tallahassee this Saturday. The show is from 10:00 AM to = 5:00 PM, at the North Folrida Fairgrounds on South Monroe Drive. I invite y'all to drop by to watch my H3b's in action and talk about The = Standard Railroad of The World. Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C46534.522BE650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,

I will again have my N scle 2 ft. by 4 = ft. layout=20 in operation at the train show in Tallahassee this Saturday. The show is = from=20 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM, at the North Folrida Fairgrounds on South Monroe=20 Drive.

I invite y'all to drop by to watch my = H3b's in=20 action and talk about The Standard Railroad of The World.

Gregg = Mahlkov
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C46534.522BE650-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mitoraj Thomas-Q12119 Subject: [PRR] Aerotrains Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:58:07 -0500 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgSFRUUC1FUVVJVj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBDT05U RU5UPSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9VVMtQVNDSUkiPg0KPFRJVExFPk1lc3NhZ2U8L1RJVExF Pg0KDQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PSJNU0hUTUwgNi4wMC4yODAwLjE0MDAiIG5hbWU9R0VORVJBVE9S PjwvSEVBRD4NCjxCT0RZPg0KPERJVj48U1BBTiBjbGFzcz0xMjUxMTU2MTItMDkwNzIwMDQ+PEZP TlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+VGhlIFJvY2sgSXNsYW5kIA0KcHVyY2hhc2UgYm90aCBBZXJv dHJhaW5zIGZyb20gR00gYWZ0ZXIgdGhleSB3ZXJlIHRyaWFsZWQgdW5zdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgb24g dGhlIA0KUGVubnN5LCBVUCBhbmQgTllDLiZuYnNwOyBUaGUgdHJhaW5zJm5ic3A7d2VyZSBpZGVu dGljYWwgYW5kIGRpZCBub3QgaGF2ZSByZWFyIA0KZG9vcnMgb24gdGhlIGVuZ2luZXMuPC9GT05U PjwvU1BBTj48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PFNQQU4gY2xhc3M9MTI1MTE1NjEyLTA5MDcyMDA0PjxGT05U IGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgDQpzaXplPTI+PC9GT05UPjwvU1BBTj4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PFNQ QU4gY2xhc3M9MTI1MTE1NjEyLTA5MDcyMDA0PjxGT05UIGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPlRvbSAN Ck1pdG9yYWo8L0ZPTlQ+PC9TUEFOPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C465B4.61146824-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:00:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 From: John Sheets Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:17:07 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 0.6 () J_CHICKENPOX_31 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have a GG-1 builders plate which reads: ALTOONA WORKS 1-38 GG1 .4333 (NO DASH, BEN ;~) This plate was a gift to my late father from a late friend employed by PRR at Wilmington Shops in the 1970s. I wish I had more info for you, but that is about it. owen Ian Macoy wrote: > sorry -- make that Altoona-built, not Juniata > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Macoy [mailto:IMACOY@NACHA.ORG] > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:35 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s > > Does anyone know where the Builders Plate was located on > GG-1s built in the 1930s-early '40s by Juniata? Did they > have any?I've been unable to find any photos showing > builders plates (other than onthe first GG-1 rivet), but > have seen one or two photos of individual rectangular plates > themselves (for pre-Juniata production). I'm particularly > interested in early to mid (pre-'45) Juniata Shop > production. > -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:30:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-6,8 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Oh heck, I always loved the black GG1 that said "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" on it's side. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:53:19 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 0.6 () J_CHICKENPOX_31 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ian Macoy wrote: > Thanx Owen. > > Couple questions if you have it in front of you: > > is the period before the 4333 actually right next to the "1" in GG1 so that > it would be "1-38 GG1. 4333" No. The intention might be that as spacing could indicate so, but : " I-38 G G I .4333 " with " G G I " in type twice as large as all other lettering on plate. The dot nearly touches the point on the "4" but see what I mean by spacing and ralative size of letters? > I assume "ALTOONA WORKS" is centered left to right on plate right over the > date, type and mfg # right? Correct. and in the smaller typeface, everything is caps and in same type used for other Pennsy signs, etc. Overall 16" x 6.5" with lettering and border (with integral boltholes in each corner) raised above flat portion of plate. Flat portion is black and raised portion in brushed bare metal. It is light, probably aluminum, cast with number " X 18656 " on back, and beautiful (in the eye of this beholder.) owen thorne PRRTHS #2461 > I've seen one with General Electric and their logo as well (over "BALDWIN > LOCOMOTIVE WORKS") dated 8-34. I assume this is an early model not > assembled at Altoona, but it's interesting that the electrics supplier (GW > or Westinghouse I think) are not referenced on yours. > > Thanks again for the prompt response and let me know this other stuff if you > can. > > Ian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Owen Thorne [mailto:owen@UDel.Edu] > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:17 PM > To: Ian Macoy > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s > > I have a GG-1 builders plate which reads: > > ALTOONA WORKS > 1-38 GG1 .4333 > > (NO DASH, BEN ;~) This plate was a gift to my late father from a late > friend employed by PRR at Wilmington Shops in the 1970s. I wish I had > more info for you, but that is about it. > > owen > > Ian Macoy wrote: > > > sorry -- make that Altoona-built, not Juniata > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ian Macoy [mailto:IMACOY@NACHA.ORG] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:35 PM > > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s > > > > Does anyone know where the Builders Plate was located on > > GG-1s built in the 1930s-early '40s by Juniata? Did they > > have any?I've been unable to find any photos showing > > builders plates (other than onthe first GG-1 rivet), but > > have seen one or two photos of individual rectangular plates > > themselves (for pre-Juniata production). I'm particularly > > interested in early to mid (pre-'45) Juniata Shop > > production. > > > -- > T. Owen Thorne > 20 Hillwood Road > Glen Farms, Fairhill > Elkton MD 21921-2031 > owen@udel.edu > 1-410-620-2078 -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:31:12 -0400 Group, Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there. Why = haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet? = (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but to me that seems like it = would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go over = a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this = and he has fallen off the face of the earth. Sam V ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Group,

Since the talk has been slow I wanted = to throw this=20 out there. Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of = the=20 manufactures yet? (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but = to me=20 that seems like it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or = even=20 resin to go over a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank = Zappa many=20 moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the = earth.

Sam V
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:31:12 -0400 Group, Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there. Why = haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet? = (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but to me that seems like it = would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go over = a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this = and he has fallen off the face of the earth. Sam V ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Group,

Since the talk has been slow I wanted = to throw this=20 out there. Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of = the=20 manufactures yet? (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but = to me=20 that seems like it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or = even=20 resin to go over a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank = Zappa many=20 moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the = earth.

Sam V
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:18:46 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > =A0 > Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why=20= > haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures=20 > yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that seems=20= > like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin = to=20 > go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons = ago=20 > about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. > =A0 > Sam V=A0 Sam, An excellent question with a pretty clear answer... I have directly=20 asked the manufacturers with whom I have contact, and EVEN if they were=20= thinking of doing a K4s, they do not seem interested in the streamlined=20= versions. Why? Market! You have 5 different potential locomotives. =20 The most attractive is the completely streamlined loco, one-of-a-kind. =20= All require a "new" tender. The 180P75 tender for the truly=20 streamlined K4 also requires one-of-a-kind trucks (OK, you could see=20 some for that tender, unstreamlined, for the I1). The only thing that=20= would be of any value in the long haul is a K4 running gear. On the=20 plus side, streamlined locomotives have a lot less exterior piping to=20 deal with, and you might sell the locomotive to a lot of non-PRR=20 modelers, but unlike the T1, you'll only sell ONE to each... so we're=20 back to market. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-12--568423551 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: = ArialGroup, =A0 ArialSince the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that seems like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. =A0 ArialSam V=A0 Sam, An excellent question with a pretty clear answer... I have directly asked the manufacturers with whom I have contact, and EVEN if they were thinking of doing a K4s, they do not seem interested in the streamlined versions. Why? Market! You have 5 different potential locomotives. The most attractive is the completely streamlined loco, one-of-a-kind. All require a "new" tender. The 180P75 tender for the truly streamlined K4 also requires one-of-a-kind trucks (OK, you could see some for that tender, unstreamlined, for the I1). The only thing that would be of any value in the long haul is a K4 running gear. On the plus side, streamlined locomotives have a lot less exterior piping to deal with, and you might sell the locomotive to a lot of non-PRR modelers, but unlike the T1, you'll only sell ONE to each... so we're back to market. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-12--568423551-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:40:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1122707974-177966414@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Admittedly, I'm a real novice when it comes to understanding the various types of signals and their purpose. I know how to read the signals okay but my struggle is in designing a simple signal system for my model railroad. I have an interlocking plant where four main tracks are reduced to three. There are some crossovers thrown in there for good measure. I have drawn my track layout in schematic form below. The normal direction of traffic is indicated by the arrowheads. I do not wish to facilitate reverse moves in the signalling -- the rare instances of reverse moves will be handled by form D. _______________________<---- / _____/_______________<---- <----________/ / <--->__________/ ---->________ \ \ \_____________________----> \_______\_______________----> So if there is a kind and generous soul out there who would be willing to recommend a signal design for this plant I would be forever indebted!! Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:05:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED From: Jamie Bothwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: > >> Group, >> =A0 >> Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why=20= >> haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures=20= >> yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that = seems=20 >> like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin=20= >> to go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many = moons=20 >> ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. >> =A0 >> Sam V=A0 >> Good Evening, You poor under-equipped HO guys have my heartfelt sympathy. ;~) = Why=20 even we lowly S scalers have a plastic streamilned K4. The more=20 attractive one of a kind one too! Now I have not put a scale rule to=20 one, and it shares a drive with other Pacifics, so it may not be for=20 rivet counters, but we do have a fairly credible replica. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--551215281 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: = ArialGroup, =A0 ArialSince the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that seems like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. =A0 ArialSam V=A0 Good Evening, You poor under-equipped HO guys have my heartfelt sympathy. ;~) = Why even we lowly S scalers have a plastic streamilned K4. The more attractive one of a kind one too! Now I have not put a scale rule to one, and it shares a drive with other Pacifics, so it may not be for rivet counters, but we do have a fairly credible replica. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--551215281-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:30:00 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] PRR Branchline Pullman Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My local hobby shop had their first shipment of the New Branchline Pullmans in today. I purchased a CENTWOOD version. And does it look nice; they even got the steps correct (most paint them black and they should be red). It looks to be on par with a Red Caboose X-29 kit. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: FW: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:47:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: -----Original Message----- From: SID JOHNSON [mailto:srj693@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:24 PM To: Christopher Baker Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Christopher, The first thing we're going to do is number the tracks as the PRR did. Next consult the PRR rulebook and look up Rule 251 and Rule 261. Please understand that Rule 251 is for movement on signal indication with the current of traffic as established by the timetable. On the other hand, Rule 261 is for movement of trains in either direction by signal indication. This is also established by timetable. JCT ___________1_________<---- / _____/___2_________<---- <----__1______/ / <--->__2________/ ---->__3______ \ \ \__________3_________----> \_______\_____4_________----> >From your drawing, tracks 1&3 West of JCT are 251 and track 2 is 261. East of JCT all tracks are 251. It is important to understand that signaling thru turnouts is speed dependent. On the PRR that translated into: Slow Speed (15 mph) was for #10 turnouts and crossovers Medium Speed (30 mph) was for #15 turnouts and crossovers Limited Speed (45 mph) was for #20 turnouts and crossovers Wye turnouts are special. Double the frog size to find the right speed. They were pretty rare on the PRR. (Indianapolis West) In modeling terms that means #4, #6 and #8 turnouts. SLOW SPEED Rules 284, 287 and 288 MEDIUM SPEED Rules 282 and 283 LIMITED SPEED Notes to Rules 282 and 283 All signaling into 251 territory, against the current of traffic, was done under Rule 290 and protected by Form D train order. Form D was never issued until Form J, form 5, has been issued, made complete and a BDA device applied on the opposing signals. >From your drawing 4 more sets of crossovers would be helpful to accommodate the full spectrum of moves for a fluid movement of traffic. Rules 316 or 317 are always specified in the timetable with respect to movements against the current in 251 territory. Please see the definition of Clear and Permissive Blocks. Its usually dependent on curvature and sight distance. Also, Passenger Trains are never admitted to an occupied block under these rules. Cab signals are beyond the scope of this discussion and are a whole different subject. I hope you find this helpful. Sid -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Baker Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 8:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Admittedly, I'm a real novice when it comes to understanding the various types of signals and their purpose. I know how to read the signals okay but my struggle is in designing a simple signal system for my model railroad. I have an interlocking plant where four main tracks are reduced to three. There are some crossovers thrown in there for good measure. I have drawn my track layout in schematic form below. The normal direction of traffic is indicated by the arrowheads. I do not wish to facilitate reverse moves in the signalling -- the rare instances of reverse moves will be handled by form D. _______________________<---- / _____/_______________<---- <----________/ / <--->__________/ ---->________ \ \ \_____________________----> \_______\_______________----> So if there is a kind and generous soul out there who would be willing to recommend a signal design for this plant I would be forever indebted!! Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:27:07 -0400 >From: Bruce Smith >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED >Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:18:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:27 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Signal Design Help X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.203.81.5] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:01:51 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, Two more signal points to consider: 1) All entrances to an interlocking are protected by signals. An entry against the current of traffic may only have a dwarf signal capable of displaying Stop or Restricting. 2) Exits from interlockings generally do not have signals. (If you cannot leave the interlocking, due to occupied track ahead, you cannot enter the interlocking). In some instances with Rule 261, bi-directional trackage, a signal is provided at the interlocking exit, to give more positive protection for opposing traffic. One more thing. If you want fully working signals, you might consider Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system, which uses a computer to handle all the "relay" logic for the signals and is thus extremely flexible. Circuit boards, kits, and assembled cards are available, as is excellent tech suport from both users and Bruce Chubb. A Yahoo-group is available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/ Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:27 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Signal Design Help X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.203.81.5] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:01:51 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, Two more signal points to consider: 1) All entrances to an interlocking are protected by signals. An entry against the current of traffic may only have a dwarf signal capable of displaying Stop or Restricting. 2) Exits from interlockings generally do not have signals. (If you cannot leave the interlocking, due to occupied track ahead, you cannot enter the interlocking). In some instances with Rule 261, bi-directional trackage, a signal is provided at the interlocking exit, to give more positive protection for opposing traffic. One more thing. If you want fully working signals, you might consider Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system, which uses a computer to handle all the "relay" logic for the signals and is thus extremely flexible. Circuit boards, kits, and assembled cards are available, as is excellent tech suport from both users and Bruce Chubb. A Yahoo-group is available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/ Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chris baker interlocking request Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:11:12 +0000 Chris, contact me offline please. I know a former PRR towerman here in Chicgao who would like to work with you and help you out. Thanks, Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20553_1089465072_0 Content-Type: text/html Chris, contact me offline please. I know a former PRR towerman here in Chicgao who would like to work with you and help you out. Thanks, Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20553_1089465072_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:39:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - STREAMLINED K4 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,8,11,15-16,18 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: caples5@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: One of the O scale companies made the one of a kind loco in plastic and they all sold well. So why can't we have it too in a more popular scale like HO. All Bowser or Bachmann would have to do is come up with a different body shell to slip it over the mechanism and one for the tender and use trucks they probably already make . How costly can that be? AHM made (Riverossi) a streamlined Hudson. How many did NYC have? Many of the Hudsons were streamlined specifically for the train they pulled. (one or two of a kind) To top that off . AHM made (sold) replicas of all the different styles that NYC had using different loco shells. AHM also sold replicas of the LV streamlined train. If they sold for a less popular road. Then the loco's will sell for a more popular railroad like the PRR. Not only PRR fans will buy the replica of the one of a kind loco that pulled the Broadway Limited. Other people will buy them just for that fact. It is a beautiful loco that pulled a famous train. ( how many NON PRR fans bought the K4 from Bachmann. I'll bet more than PRR fans!) So the proof is out there. It does sell. All we have to do is strongly suggest it to the right manufacturer! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:39:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - STREAMLINED K4 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,8,11,15-16,18 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: caples5@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: One of the O scale companies made the one of a kind loco in plastic and they all sold well. So why can't we have it too in a more popular scale like HO. All Bowser or Bachmann would have to do is come up with a different body shell to slip it over the mechanism and one for the tender and use trucks they probably already make . How costly can that be? AHM made (Riverossi) a streamlined Hudson. How many did NYC have? Many of the Hudsons were streamlined specifically for the train they pulled. (one or two of a kind) To top that off . AHM made (sold) replicas of all the different styles that NYC had using different loco shells. AHM also sold replicas of the LV streamlined train. If they sold for a less popular road. Then the loco's will sell for a more popular railroad like the PRR. Not only PRR fans will buy the replica of the one of a kind loco that pulled the Broadway Limited. Other people will buy them just for that fact. It is a beautiful loco that pulled a famous train. ( how many NON PRR fans bought the K4 from Bachmann. I'll bet more than PRR fans!) So the proof is out there. It does sell. All we have to do is strongly suggest it to the right manufacturer! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-9B Modeling Question Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:35:13 -0500 Guys: I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that Smokey = Valley Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the = Athearn Geep. Is it any good? Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be better? = I am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion. TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Guys:

I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that = Smokey Valley=20 Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the Athearn = Geep. Is=20 it any good?

Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be = better? I=20 am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion.

TIA

Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-9B Modeling Question Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:35:13 -0500 Guys: I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that Smokey = Valley Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the = Athearn Geep. Is it any good? Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be better? = I am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion. TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Guys:

I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that = Smokey Valley=20 Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the Athearn = Geep. Is=20 it any good?

Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be = better? I=20 am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion.

TIA

Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] streamlined K-4s Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:40:23 -0400 hi y'all, that drop-in conversion for a 3768 K-4 streamliner sounds = mighty good to me......even if they wind up giving you most of the loco = from the=20 ground up. looks like that will pretty much make it a cottage industry = type product, but with all those new passenger cars coming out, i'd = venture that someone could sell fifty to one hundred of ' em. = .............but, they'd better get it right or "there'll be no way to = delay that trouble comin' every day" jaygee p.r.r.t.&h.s.# 5082 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C46672.AF999780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi y'all,     that = drop-in=20 conversion for a 3768 K-4 streamliner sounds mighty good to me......even = if they=20 wind up giving you most of the loco from the

ground up.   looks like that = will pretty=20 much make it a cottage industry type product, but with all those new = passenger=20 cars coming out, i'd venture

that someone could sell fifty to one = hundred of '=20 em.     .............but, they'd better get it right = or=20 "there'll be no way to delay that trouble comin' every day"

          &nbs= p;            = ;         =20 jaygee p.r.r.t.&h.s.# 5082
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C46672.AF999780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] water hatch placement Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:41:51 -0400 hello, everyone !! a while back i believe, it was gary mittner who asked if = anyone had a picture, or pictures of the water deck of a 210-F-84a = trainphone equipped tender showing the hatches placed in the location as per the B.L.I. J-1 = model; that is close together........as modeled on the old penn line = 180-F-75 long distance job. what i'd like to find out now is if anyone has = photos of the same type welded tank ( ie. 210-F-75) attached to an M-1 = or I-1 loco, showing the water deck with the hatches located to the outer edge, as = frequently shows up in J-1 shots with their captive 210-F-84a trainphone = tenders.=20 just wondering if this : A) B.L.I. J-1 hatch configuration is = wrong, or B) the wide spaced hatches were unique to lines west ( = columbus ) J-1s = thanks............................jaygee ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C466CF.176E8940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
hello, everyone !!

          a while = back i=20 believe, it was gary mittner who asked if anyone had a picture, or = pictures of=20 the water deck of a 210-F-84a trainphone equipped tender

showing the hatches placed in the = location as per=20 the B.L.I.     J-1   model; that is close=20 together........as modeled on the old penn line 180-F-75 = long

distance = job.     =20 what i'd like to find out now is if anyone has photos of the same = type=20 welded tank ( ie. 210-F-75) attached to an M-1 or I-1 loco,=20 showing

the water deck with the hatches located = to the=20 outer edge, as frequently shows up in J-1 shots with their captive = 210-F-84a trainphone tenders.

        just=20 wondering if this : A) B.L.I. J-1 hatch configuration = is=20 wrong,     or B)   the wide spaced = hatches=20 were unique to lines west ( columbus ) J-1s

          &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 thanks............................jaygee
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C466CF.176E8940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] cut levers Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:22:59 -0400 Hi All, Does anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free = State Co. that produces the carmer cut levers?? Don't mean to be a bother, just happened that I missed it somewhere in = the texts. Thanks------Fred in Vt ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C466F6.5E1AD020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,

        Does=20 anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free State Co. that = produces=20 the carmer cut levers??

Don't mean to be a bother, just = happened that I=20 missed it somewhere in the texts.     = Thanks------Fred in=20 Vt
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C466F6.5E1AD020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] cut levers Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:36:32 +0000 Fred asked: "Does anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free State Co. that produces the Carmer cut levers??" Free State Systems: freestatesystems1@comcast.net http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20products/freest/carcut-rtecrdmain.html Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2576_1089549392_0 Content-Type: text/html
Fred asked:
"Does anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free State Co.
that produces the Carmer cut levers??"

Free State Systems: freestatesystems1@comcast.net
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20products/freest/carcut-rtecrdmain.html

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2576_1089549392_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:59:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/11/04, Re:K4 I'm with John Caples and if someone makes at a resonable price, I'll buy it. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1089583195 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I'm with John Caples and if someone makes at a resonable price, I'll bu= y=20 it.

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1089583195-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:28:25 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] PRR company tank car Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Folks -- A Westerner (SP fan) somehow obtained a brass model of a PRR tank car, which he vaguely described as "AMX-8" or something like that. He foolishly assumed that I was a PRR expert who would instantly know what he was talking about. Apparently the car was a singleton, used in non-revenue service; he wants to know the car number. A photo would help with lettering. Can anybody help with our collective vast wellspring of ignorance? Might even be something here for Mainline Modeler. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:55:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter Weiglin Asks: > A Westerner (SP fan) somehow obtained a brass model of a PRR tank car, > which he vaguely described as "AMX-8" or something like that. He foolishly assumed > that I was a PRR expert who would instantly know what he was talking about. > > Apparently the car was a singleton, used in non-revenue service; he wants > to know the car number. A photo would help with lettering. Class TM8 See diuagram at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=tm8.gif And information at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=TM8 Cars were obviously in company service. Known numbers include PRR 498640 and TM8b (three dome) PRR 498748., The former is seen in Pennsy Power 3, and the later in the PRR Color Guide vol1. An Ho scale model was imported by Sunset. The cars are actually the very common AC&F Type 11 tank cars, although Sunset was apparently convinced that they were somehow "unusual". I'm told that, following miserable sales of the car as a TM8, Sunset painted and decaled a bunch of these cars in fanciful, but colorful schemes to try to get rid of the rest of them. Of course, its never been offered in a correct non-PRR scheme AFAIK. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn. AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Peter Weiglin" , "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:00:38 -0400 To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 11, 2004, at 8:55 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > Cars were obviously in company service. Known numbers include PRR > 498640 > and TM8b (three dome) PRR 498748., The former is seen in Pennsy Power > 3, > and the later in the PRR Color Guide vol1. > > An Ho scale model was imported by Sunset. The cars are actually the > very > common AC&F Type 11 tank cars, although Sunset was apparently convinced > that they were somehow "unusual". I'm told that, following miserable > sales of the car as a TM8, Sunset painted and decaled a bunch of these > cars in fanciful, but colorful schemes to try to get rid of the rest of > them. Of course, its never been offered in a correct non-PRR scheme > AFAIK. MicroTrains did the TM8 ACF Type 11 car in N scale as well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:47:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40F1DB29.2050601@datatamers.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: The PRR had several classes of company service tank cars: Information to date indicates the following: 29 class TM8, 4 class TM8b, 1 class TM10 and 3 class TM12. They were painted FCC w/white lettering up through ca. 1936 then gray with black lettering and I've heard that one TM8 even made it into the yellow w/ black lettering scheme post 1953. The Keystone Vol 17, No. 1 Spring 1984, and Vol 17, No.2 Summer 1984, both had articles by Rich Burg on the PRR's tank car fleet. Page 126 PRR Color Guide 1, has a photo of TM8b 498805, three dome in the gray scheme. I have a slide of TM8 498639 ca. 1974 in Philadelphia in the gray scheme as well as a color print of TM8 498642 ca. 1957 in Enola in FCC. If your SP friend wants valid numbers for a class TM8 have him contact me. However, those cars would not have migrated to the SP. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:02:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry said: > MicroTrains did the TM8 ACF Type 11 car in N scale as well. Jerry, Based on the photograph I found the Microtrains is clearly NOT a TM8 (aka AC&F type 11). Rather it is a later AC&F tank car... Looks like a type 27. Particularly laughable is the lettering for CAPY 100000... Um didn't they realize that the "8" in TM8 meant 8,000 gallons? (Du-uh!!) MAN, classic micro trains... Strip it, paint it SHPX and be happy ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'Peter Weiglin'" , "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:21:44 -0400 To: "Al Buchan" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 11, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Al Buchan wrote: > The PRR had several classes of company service tank cars: Information > to > date indicates the following: 29 class TM8, 4 class TM8b, 1 class TM10 > and 3 class TM12. They were painted FCC w/white lettering up through > ca. > 1936 then gray with black lettering and I've heard that one TM8 even > made it into the yellow w/ black lettering scheme post 1953. The sleeve on the MicroTrains N scale TM8 indicates that the PRR purchased 50 of these cars in 1929. Take this with a grain of salt as MT's info isn't always reliable and does not reference a source. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:41:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <45F521D8-D3ED-11D8-BEA5-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, et al.: Re: The sleeve on the MicroTrains N scale TM8 indicates that the PRR purchased 50 of these cars in 1929. The roster info of 29 class TM8 comes from "The Keystone" article, which of course doesn't make it gospel but somewhat creditable. Thanx for the input. Al. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:50:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: GP-9B Modeling Question From: John Sheets Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:12:40 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Bd Baggage Car From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <97464B74-D450-11D8-8341-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.155 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Group, Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of drawings for a Bd baggage car. That is besides Rob's site. I have a good photo, and a detailed elevation would really help. Thanks. Greg Ritacco. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:06:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ok, guys, save your nickles! I sent off a question to Greg Martin about what he saw at the NMRA convention, and here is his reply! ----- Original Message ----- > > Steve, > > I came home to a dead computer ... YIKES! Yes, there is an FP-7 coming and I have known for a while but now I can announce it. We will be working with InterMountain on the 5-stripe scheme but there are a couple of detail we have to get drawings for. More later... First I have to get the computer up and running. > Greg. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:11:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:42:18 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:42:18 +0000 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] FP7 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:54:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, don't know about you but I am not as concerned with who is first out with a FP7. I'll buy the one that is most correct for the PRR. Now if we could either mfg to place drill starter points on the underside of the roof for the trainphone antenna, that would be awesome. I can install them myself but a little placement help would be nice. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:57:43 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry writes: >On Jul 12, 2004, at 7:42 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > >> I heard this too from Trains.com. Hence, it looks that Intermountain >> will be joining Roco in a rush to a re-tooled FP-7! > >Where Roco (and related) typically do one road number, InterMountain >consistently does at least four road numbers, with matching B units. > >And for N scalers, trains.com reports F3's with sound, though no Pennsy units (due to small numberboards) yet. I doubt they will do F3's due to that, but I'm confident Pennsy will be included when they eventually do the F7's and FP7's. > >InterMountain is on a roll these days, typically with a dozen new releases each month! All, I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagram necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. Mounting any more writing campaigns at this point is redundant. The cost to retool the nose of the F-3 is out of the picture. The modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. There is only so much we can have our way... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR 12-1 Camp Car Conversions Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:13:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone out there have pictures of PRR CampCars converted from 12-1 Pullmans? Specifically car 492898 ex Daniel Webster? I have the ones in the 3 PRR Color guides, so no need to mention them. Does anyone know if the PRR took official "builders photo's" of the completed cap cars including the interior? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Ted Andrews , STEPHEN HOXIE , PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain F3 N Scale Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:29:39 -0400 To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 12, 2004, at 9:57 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale > F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" > in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the > numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT > nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not > all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units > in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling > committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and > lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. > > I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagram > necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. > > Mounting any more writing campaigns at this point is redundant. The > cost to retool the nose of the F-3 is out of the picture. The > modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save > the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. > There is only so much we can have our way... Greg, I had resigned myself several months ago that "correct" F3's from InterMountain wasn't going to happen. Are we better off with PRR painted units in need of fixing and touch-up paint, or are we better off with undec units? I was planning to go the undec route. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:39:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will shortly announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in Pennsy stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "STEPHEN HOXIE" ; "PRR-TALK" ; Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? > I have also heard this from an independent source this > morning... > > Bill Daniels > > --- STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > > Ok, guys, save your nickles! I sent off a question > > to Greg Martin about > > what he saw at the NMRA convention, and here is his > > reply! > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > I came home to a dead computer ... YIKES! Yes, > > there is an FP-7 coming and > > I have known for a while but now I can announce it. > > We will be working with > > InterMountain on the 5-stripe scheme but there are a > > couple of detail we > > have to get drawings for. More later... First I have > > to get the computer up > > and running. > > > Greg. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:51:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Park Varieties wrote: > Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will > shortly > announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in > Pennsy > stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? Actually, IM has been showing these for a while now, but nobody has noticed. Now the release is imminent. Many months ago I researched reefer routing, which was followed by a lesser extent with stock cars. Bottom line was that any car could appear anywhere. I have a photo of a NYC stock car at the Swift plant in Harrisburg. However, it was noted that Chicago was a major hub of activity in the stock trade. A lot of the western roads (ex. ATSF) would terminate there. Stock would be traded, and then routed anew to its destination. So, a lot of ATSF stock would be moved to PRR cars at Chicago. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:03:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Wood Reefers From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:51 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Park Varieties wrote: > >> Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will >> shortly >> announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in >> Pennsy >> stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? > > Actually, IM has been showing these for a while now, but nobody has > noticed. Now the release is imminent. Also STILL not being mentioned are the 40' wood reefers that IM did in N scale. I've got dozens myself. They are coming out very soon in HO. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:57:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TKM #12 Now Posted As PDF From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <39ED5033-D4CC-11D8-BF61-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The PDF version of the recent issue of The Keystone Modeler is now available on the Society's web site. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "STEPHEN HOXIE" , "Park Varieties" , "Bill Daniels" , "PRR-TALK" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Stock cars and Wood Reefers Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:25:48 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:51 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Park Varieties wrote: >> >>> Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will >>> shortly >>> announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in >>> Pennsy >>> stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? >> >> Actually, IM has been showing these for a while now, but nobody has >> noticed. Now the release is imminent. All depends on what list you are on ;^) These have been discussed over on the Steam era freight car list some time ago. These cars will be the Sk-Q through Sk-U class cars built by the Pennsylvania Car Co. om 1928-'30, because with most of the same tooling they can produce both single deck and double deck cars (information from Richard Hendrickson). As with most new IM stuff, it will likely be RTR, however it looks like undec "flat" kits will also be available. Decals for these kits are an issue that is being addressed as no sets apparently exist right now. As for routings, yes, they would be appropriate for PRR stock trains. As with SFRD and PFE reefers, they should be present at much less than the national percentage, but there are photos of AT&SF stock cars on the PRR. In particular, you should recall that the King Ranch, famous for its Texas holdings, also held large amounts of acerage in Southeastern PA and that Texas cattle were shipped there to feed out. Leading Stock car owners (1950) ATSF - 7461 UP - 4386 CB&Q - 3753 MILW - 3690 CP - 3346 SP/T&NO - 3040 CN - 3037 PRR - 2315 GN - 2045 NYC - 1675 RI - 1207 B&O - 1192 IC - 1100 Ignore the CP and CN listings, as these would be very rare in the US, but the top car owners would definitely be seen! and then Jerry added: > Also STILL not being mentioned are the 40' wood reefers that IM did in > N scale. I've got dozens myself. They are coming out very soon in HO. Any idea about what the hold up in HO was? These were discussed well over a year ago... these are post-WWII FGE wood reefers. A great addition for the transition era PRR modeler (but alas, I am just going to have to build Sunshine kits). Be aware that almost every scheme other than the FGE scheme is bogus. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:35:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Stock cars and Wood Reefers From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 09:25 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > and then Jerry added: >> Also STILL not being mentioned are the 40' wood reefers that IM did >> in N scale. I've got dozens myself. They are coming out very soon in >> HO. > > Any idea about what the hold up in HO was? These were discussed well > over a year ago... these are post-WWII FGE wood reefers. A great > addition for the transition era PRR modeler (but alas, I am just going > to have to build Sunshine kits). Be aware that almost every scheme > other than the FGE scheme is bogus. They are coming... you're getting the stock cars first! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:57:08 +0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:19:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Listserv Software Upgrade Slated From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: An upgrade to the DSOP.COM listserv software has been acquired and will be installed tomorrow evening, Wednesday, July 14th. The installation should only take about 15 minutes, but there will be some down time, beginning around 6:30 p.m. The new version has been in public use for some time, so no issues are expected. The upgrade is extremely straightforward. I will announce when the upgrade is complete, and ask that afterwards you comment on any issues observed. Please DO NOT send "test" messages just for the sake of testing!!! I will not be making any configuration changes during the first 24 hours or so, just to narrow troubleshooting, if needed. One of the first changes that will be made thereafter will be the stripping of HTML/MIME from Digest messages... I know that more than a few of you are waiting on that change! This upgrade was paid for by the proceeds from the recent sale Merchandise Service held on the "Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD-ROM. Thank you to those who purchased and supported this upgrade! All for now... ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Stock cars and Wood Reefers Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:21:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have had them on advance order for that year you mention. I panicked recently and thought my order got lost when they released another batch of N scale (missed that scale indication). I only got a "one of these days" answer re the HO version, but will be talking to IM again about an order and re the B60b in earlier livery and will ask them about the FGEX reefers at that time. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" > Any idea about what the hold up in HO was? These were discussed well > over a year ago... these are post-WWII FGE wood reefers. A great > addition for the transition era PRR modeler (but alas, I am just going > to have to build Sunshine kits). Be aware that almost every scheme > other than the FGE scheme is bogus. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:23 +0000 >From: Bruce Smith >Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:20:06 -0500 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:23 +0000 >From: Bruce Smith >Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:20:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Livestock traffic on PRR Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Livestock traffic on PRR From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:02:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re; Stock Trains I can remember complete trains of stock cars entering Philadelphia in the 1950's Since these trains were observed at both the Merion and Overbrook stations, they were defiantly going into Philadelphia. Standing on the inbound platform was an experience, when a train was passing. The smell lingered for five minutes after the train passed. -------------------------------1089741772 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I can remember complete trains of stock cars entering Philadelphia in the= 1950's Since these trains were observed at both the Merion and Overbr= ook stations, they were defiantly going into Philadelphia. Standing on= the inbound platform was an experience, when a train was passing. The= smell lingered for five minutes after the train passed. -------------------------------1089741772-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:08:49 -0400 Walthers keeps telling me that their 2D-P5 trucks will be issued as = separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any listmember tried using = the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the Eastern Car Works 2D-P5's = to improve durability and rolling qualities? Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Walthers keeps telling me that their = 2D-P5 trucks=20 will be issued as separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any = listmember tried using the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the = Eastern Car=20 Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling qualities?

Frank Brua
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:08:49 -0400 Walthers keeps telling me that their 2D-P5 trucks will be issued as = separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any listmember tried using = the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the Eastern Car Works 2D-P5's = to improve durability and rolling qualities? Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Walthers keeps telling me that their = 2D-P5 trucks=20 will be issued as separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any = listmember tried using the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the = Eastern Car=20 Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling qualities?

Frank Brua
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking request Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:09:01 -0400 I would like to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite interesting information in response to my signal design request. I understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the PRR -- especially in a mainline track configuration. I do have photographic evidence to the contrary, although the dates of the images far precede the era I am modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in the formative years of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral wye into the existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images contained within the E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my model railroad realm, I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise update this track configuration from that of it's early days. I am however, planning to use #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them "high-speed" routes. The wye is a #5... The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from four main tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of the route as it passes through the heart of an established downtown area. The three main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, bridged by several streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass through a short but critical tunnel as they exit the other side of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area where the south-end mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous cuts and tunnels to access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end of the city. The outer tracks will be operated in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track section will be used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic pattern will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand tracks for forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing traffic. Track-to-track connections will be limited to leading- and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks that carry traffic in the same direction. This will facilitate overtakes and provide some flexibility in accessing sidings and station platforms. Since my layout schematic is a glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards simplifying wiring I hope. Again, thanks for all the excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any other good tips for building my interlocking. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4691D.9F09BC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I would like=20 to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite = interesting=20 information in response to my signal design request. =

I=20 understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the PRR -- especially in a = mainline track configuration. I do have photographic evidence = to the=20 contrary, although the dates of the images far precede the era I am=20 modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in the formative = years=20 of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense=20 recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral wye = into the=20 existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images contained = within the=20 E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my model = railroad realm,=20 I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise update this track = configuration from that of it's early days. I am however, planning = to use=20 #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them "high-speed" = routes. =20 The wye is a #5...

The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from four = main=20 tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of = the route=20 as it passes through the heart of an established downtown area. = The three=20 main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, bridged by = several=20 streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass through a = short=20 but critical tunnel as they exit the = other side=20 of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area where the = south-end=20 mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous cuts and = tunnels to=20 access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end of the=20 city.

The outer tracks will = be operated=20 in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track section = will be=20 used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for=20 bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic = pattern=20 will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand = tracks for=20 forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing=20 traffic.  Track-to-track connections will be limited to = leading-=20 and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks that carry = traffic=20 in the same direction. This will facilitate overtakes and provide = some=20 flexibility in accessing sidings and station=20 platforms.

Since my layout = schematic is a=20 glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards simplifying = wiring I=20 hope.

Again, thanks for = all the=20 excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any = other good=20 tips for building my = interlocking.

Chris=20 Baker

PRRT&HS=20 #1918

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4691D.9F09BC80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:33:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Foreign Stock cars I have pictures from the early fifties of D&RGW, MoPac and CB&Q stock cars being switched into the cattle pens at Ephrata, Lancaster County, Penna. The cars were coming in loaded. Assume that this was a movement to put cattle on rich Penna. pastures for final fattening before the slaughterhouse. The King Ranch, headquartered in Brownsville, Texas regularly sent cattle to Bucks Cnty farms for this reason. Their business switched to trucks with the opening of the Interstate highways. The railroads viewed the cattle business with as much affection as they did long haul passenger business. Both were labor intensive requiring healthy support facilities plus cattle had to be unloaded after a given time period to be watered. I have to wonder what kind of ordeal it must have been to reload cattle after their first experience with a cattle car? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1089768784 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I have pictures from the early fifties of D&RGW, MoPac and CB= &Q stock cars being switched into the cattle pens at Ephrata, Lancaster=20= County, Penna. The cars were coming in loaded. Assume that this=20= was a movement to put cattle on rich Penna. pastures for final fattening bef= ore the slaughterhouse.   The King Ranch, headquartered in Brownsv= ille, Texas regularly sent cattle to Bucks Cnty farms for this reason. = Their business switched to trucks with the opening of the Interstate highwa= ys. The railroads viewed the cattle business with as much affection as= they did long haul passenger business. Both were labor intensive requ= iring healthy support facilities plus cattle had to be unloaded after a give= n time period to be watered. I have to wonder what kind of ordeal it m= ust have been to reload cattle after their first experience with a cattle ca= r?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1089768784-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking request Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:10:35 -0400 Chris, The reason equilateral turnouts were not favored by prototype RR's for high speed application is that they were horrible to maintain. Every time a train passed over them, lateral displacement of the rails and ties would occur. That happened for both facing and trailing movements. Elevating the curved portion was not possible. This is not an issue in modeling. I remember vividly two situations where equilateral turnouts were damned by those personally evolved. The DE of the PRR between Indianapolis to St. Louis line lamented to me that after an Inspection Train of dignitaries went west, his track gangs had to align the equilateral turnouts for the return trip the next day. In the early '60s the L&N RR eliminated a lot of double track D-251 territory between Patio and Corbin by using an alternating single/double track arrangement with #15 equilateral turnouts governed by rule 261. Those 9,500 ton coal trains off of the CV tore them apart. Simple lateral turnouts are in place today. Best wishes on your planning. Sid -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Baker Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:09 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking request I would like to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite interesting information in response to my signal design request. I understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the PRR -- especially in a mainline track configuration. I do have photographic evidence to the contrary, although the dates of the images far precede the era I am modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in the formative years of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral wye into the existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images contained within the E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my model railroad realm, I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise update this track configuration from that of it's early days. I am however, planning to use #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them "high-speed" routes. The wye is a #5... The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from four main tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of the route as it passes through the heart of an established downtown area. The three main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, bridged by several streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass through a short but critical tunnel as they exit the other side of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area where the south-end mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous cuts and tunnels to access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end of the city. The outer tracks will be operated in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track section will be used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic pattern will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand tracks for forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing traffic. Track-to-track connections will be limited to leading- and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks that carry traffic in the same direction. This will facilitate overtakes and provide some flexibility in accessing sidings and station platforms. Since my layout schematic is a glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards simplifying wiring I hope. Again, thanks for all the excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any other good tips for building my interlocking. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C4692E.9ACAA380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Chris,

The reason = equilateral turnouts=20 were not favored by prototype RR's for high speed application = is that=20 they were horrible to maintain. Every time a train passed over = them,=20 lateral displacement of the rails and ties would occur. That = happened=20 for both facing and trailing movements. Elevating the curved = portion was=20 not possible. This is not an issue in=20 modeling.

I remember vividly = two situations=20 where equilateral turnouts were damned by those personally = evolved. The=20 DE of the PRR between Indianapolis to St. Louis line lamented to me = that after=20 an Inspection Train of dignitaries went west, his track gangs had to = align the=20 equilateral turnouts for the return trip the next day. In the = early '60s=20 the L&N RR eliminated a lot of double track D-251 territory = between Patio=20 and Corbin by using an alternating single/double track arrangement = with #15=20 equilateral turnouts governed by rule 261. Those 9,500 ton coal = trains=20 off of the CV tore them apart. = Simple lateral = turnouts are in=20 place today.

Best wishes on your=20 planning.

Sid

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com = [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On=20 Behalf Of Christopher Baker
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 = 9:09=20 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking=20 request

I would=20 like to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite=20 interesting information in response to my signal design request. =

I understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the = PRR --=20 especially in a mainline track configuration. I do have = photographic=20 evidence to the contrary, although the dates of the images far precede = the era=20 I am modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in = the formative=20 years of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense=20 recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral = wye into=20 the existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images = contained=20 within the E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my = model=20 railroad realm, I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise = update=20 this track configuration from that of it's early days. I am = however,=20 planning to use #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them=20 "high-speed" routes. The wye is a #5... =20

The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from = four main=20 tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of = the=20 route as it passes through the heart of an established downtown = area. =20 The three main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, = bridged by=20 several streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass = through=20 a short but critical tunnel as they = exit the=20 other side of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area = where the=20 south-end mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous = cuts and=20 tunnels to access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end = of the=20 city.

The outer tracks will = be operated=20 in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track = section will=20 be used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for = bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic = pattern=20 will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand = tracks for=20 forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing=20 traffic.  Track-to-track connections will be limited to = leading- and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks = that=20 carry traffic in the same direction. This will facilitate = overtakes and=20 provide some flexibility in accessing sidings and station=20 platforms.

Since my layout = schematic is a=20 glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards = simplifying wiring=20 I hope.

Again, thanks = for all the=20 excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any = other good=20 tips for building my = interlocking.

Chris=20 Baker

PRRT&HS=20 #1918

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C4692E.9ACAA380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-9 Ph. III Question Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:40:44 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHicago Chapter meeting Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:25:55 +0000 If anyone is going to be in the Chicago area on 7/24 we are holding our quarterly meeting that day at 2:00PM in PUllman. Topics will be the Mt Carmel ore train by John Sheets who has done quite a bit of research and How to interpret an interlocking diagram by Bob Fredland who worked Englewood Tower for many years. attendees are welcome to bring their favorite interlocking digram for Bob to interpret anything they don't understand about it. Bob also worked for Union Switch and Signal for several years after leaving direct railroad employment. Please contact me for further info off line if you are interested. Our fall meeting will continue viewing PRR generated valuation pictures taken in the early to mid 1950's. At that time we will be viewing the mainline. Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27579_1089815155_0 Content-Type: text/html If anyone is going to be in the Chicago area on 7/24 we are holding our quarterly meeting that day at 2:00PM in PUllman. Topics will be the Mt Carmel ore train by John Sheets who has done quite a bit of research and How to interpret an interlocking diagram by Bob Fredland who worked Englewood Tower for many years. attendees are welcome to bring their favorite interlocking digram for Bob to interpret anything they don't understand about it. Bob also worked for Union Switch and Signal for several years after leaving direct railroad employment. Please contact me for further info off line if you are interested. Our fall meeting will continue viewing PRR generated valuation pictures taken in the early to mid 1950's. At that time we will be viewing the mainline. Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27579_1089815155_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1F43EDF0-D5BB-11D8-B1F7-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prrths_modeling_committee@yahoogroups.com, STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "PRR-TALK TALK''" , RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] The next PRR Project, G22 gondolas Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:27:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Afternoon Everyone, The PRR Projects Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) is going to start its next project, the G22 gondola, tomorrow, July 15. As usual, builders in all scales are welcome. In HO scale, most of us will be building the Westerfield kit, which is arguably the easiest resin kit on the market. For those of you who have never built a resin kit, it is the perfect opportunity to get over "Westerfear" and build one! Members in other scales are talking about scratchbuilding, and one N-scale member may build masters to allow her to resin cast the G22! The PRRPro group is organized so that all members may share ideas, hints, questions and especially progress reports, so everyone's contributions are welcome. Only posts directly relevant to the project at hand (or the previous projects) are allowed. To join this project, or to find information on our previous projects (F30, R50B, X29) go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:30:04 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] More on Intermountain's F3 N Scale Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry writes in reply to my post: >> I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagrams necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. >> The modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. Jerry's partial reply: >Greg, I had resigned myself several months ago that "correct" F3's from InterMountain wasn't going to happen. >Are we better off with PRR painted units in need of fixing and touch-up paint, or are we better off with undec units? I was planning to go the undec route.< ALL here! We all make our choices and I for one would find it much easier to correct the numberboards than to suffer with the stripes that are too thick as offered by Microscale, again you must weigh the options of paint and decaling vs. detail and touch up. Intermountain is certainly willing to listen and go forward with my recommendations and using "OUR" formula for colors of the basic DGLP/DGLE and Buff to PRR lettering diagrams. I like Marty's attitude about the hobby and his forward thinking. I have to ask myself, are we model builders or model collectors... I think the truth is somewhere in the middle so we have to learn to accept some compromises. As I told Marty, I cut my teeth on correcting the old Athearn/Globe F-unit and I still have one set of them that I plan to do once again, hopefully as a PRR-PRO Group effort, as I have to believe there are still millions owned by modelers. Remember, Ben Hom didn't ignore the TMI/Walthers X29 in his articles of late in TKM. At some point reality sets in and we realize we can't afford to dump everything we own for the sake of buying new... KUDOS to BEN, a realist and tremendous Keystone Modeler and if we were to offer a modeler of the year award he would take 1st PLACE HANDS DOWN! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:30:04 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] More on Intermountain's F3 N Scale Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry writes in reply to my post: >> I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagrams necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. >> The modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. Jerry's partial reply: >Greg, I had resigned myself several months ago that "correct" F3's from InterMountain wasn't going to happen. >Are we better off with PRR painted units in need of fixing and touch-up paint, or are we better off with undec units? I was planning to go the undec route.< ALL here! We all make our choices and I for one would find it much easier to correct the numberboards than to suffer with the stripes that are too thick as offered by Microscale, again you must weigh the options of paint and decaling vs. detail and touch up. Intermountain is certainly willing to listen and go forward with my recommendations and using "OUR" formula for colors of the basic DGLP/DGLE and Buff to PRR lettering diagrams. I like Marty's attitude about the hobby and his forward thinking. I have to ask myself, are we model builders or model collectors... I think the truth is somewhere in the middle so we have to learn to accept some compromises. As I told Marty, I cut my teeth on correcting the old Athearn/Globe F-unit and I still have one set of them that I plan to do once again, hopefully as a PRR-PRO Group effort, as I have to believe there are still millions owned by modelers. Remember, Ben Hom didn't ignore the TMI/Walthers X29 in his articles of late in TKM. At some point reality sets in and we realize we can't afford to dump everything we own for the sake of buying new... KUDOS to BEN, a realist and tremendous Keystone Modeler and if we were to offer a modeler of the year award he would take 1st PLACE HANDS DOWN! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:06:22 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Elden writes: >Ted; >With at least three phases of GP-35, I am curious as to which one they are tooling for. �I recall that PRR had the early ones with latches on most doors and the thicker sill, plus some with the revised hood doors, most of which didn't have latches, but I can't recall the story with that phase that went to the thin sill. �Anybody know? >Elden KEEP GOING>>>>� >-----Original Message----- >From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] >Guys: > >I heard this too from Trains.com. Hence, it looks that Intermountain will be joining Roco in a rush to a re-tooled FP-7! Lets see who hits the street (or rails) with it first ;-) > >In addition, Trains.com annouced that Athearn will be producing RTR GP-35 this fall. They will be correct hood width and and be based on a re-tooled Rail Power Products shell. While the first release will not include the Pennsy, hopefully they will in successive releases. If so, I hope that Greg Martin can oversee the PRR color and lettering scheme as he has done so well on the Genesis F-units. >If anyone is modeling the Pennsy in the mid-1960's, the GP-35 is a MUST HAVE on your layout. The GP-35 and GP-9 were the most numerous system freight engines in 1965. It is great that we don't have to rely on the increasingly rare Kato units.....which were inaccurately painted Pennsy anyway. >Ted Andrews Steve, Ted, Elden and all... The Athearn GP-35 is definitely the phase 1 (a or b) and a retool of the RPP shell. Very Nicely done (read as knocks your sock off) and I believe it will fit for the PRR units, but I need to have one in hand to be certain. The PRR Modeling Committee will be more than willing to work with Athearn on this projec I am sure, but personally "my cup runith ove"... 3^) But again I need a one in had to verify and I will try to do that. With our current relatinship we SHALL get it done. Now as for the FP-7 it is all new tooling and not yet complete for the PRR veriation. We as a committe have some work to do, specificly what is not for public announcement... It shall be done. With regard to ROCO I am not aware of any retooling of the nose which is the issue. All the isues will be detailed to the committee in the near future. I must say this was the most exciting show I have attended in years. There's more than you know or was announced. Just as a general note... the Intermountain B60B was very well done, good color match as compared to the DPH/IM P85br and the lettering was SWEET! We have our work cut out for us but we will do as much as we can to get what we can done for the group. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1D99D396-D5E7-11D8-A90F-000A95C04372@dsop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk , Reading-talk , Conrail-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listserv Update Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:42:41 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Unrelated to the planned upgrade, tornados took out power to our location from about 4:00 p.m. to about 5:45 p.m. Everything came back up fine, even though our UPS ran out prior to our ability to shut down the servers. The upgrade seemed to go great. This is kind of a test message, in fact. Please respond off-list to this account if you run into any problems with the upgrade. I lied. I am anxious and went ahead and made two changes... 1) HTML will (should) now be stripped from digests. It is possible the next one will be partially coded as it was in the midst of generation, but I suspect digests generated after 2 a.m. tomorrow will be clean. 2) The listserv previously sought to reject inbound messages containing HTML code. Now it will initially accept it. It will try to strip the code out. If it can, it will post. If it fails to strip the code, it will then reject it. This was a feature I wasn't expecting that could actually be quite helpful, especially to AOL users. Other than that, let's just see what happens... ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John and Peg" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:09:00 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What Sid Johnson said is how I understand it. Except, I think Pennsy numbered the tracks from south to north? John Dolensky Akron, Ohio PRRT&HS #7102 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of SID JOHNSON Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: FW: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help -----Original Message----- From: SID JOHNSON [mailto:srj693@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:24 PM To: Christopher Baker Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Christopher, The first thing we're going to do is number the tracks as the PRR did. Next consult the PRR rulebook and look up Rule 251 and Rule 261. Please understand that Rule 251 is for movement on signal indication with the current of traffic as established by the timetable. On the other hand, Rule 261 is for movement of trains in either direction by signal indication. This is also established by timetable. JCT ___________1_________<---- / _____/___2_________<---- <----__1______/ / <--->__2________/ ---->__3______ \ \ \__________3_________----> \_______\_____4_________----> >From your drawing, tracks 1&3 West of JCT are 251 and track 2 is 261. East of JCT all tracks are 251. It is important to understand that signaling thru turnouts is speed dependent. On the PRR that translated into: Slow Speed (15 mph) was for #10 turnouts and crossovers Medium Speed (30 mph) was for #15 turnouts and crossovers Limited Speed (45 mph) was for #20 turnouts and crossovers Wye turnouts are special. Double the frog size to find the right speed. They were pretty rare on the PRR. (Indianapolis West) In modeling terms that means #4, #6 and #8 turnouts. SLOW SPEED Rules 284, 287 and 288 MEDIUM SPEED Rules 282 and 283 LIMITED SPEED Notes to Rules 282 and 283 All signaling into 251 territory, against the current of traffic, was done under Rule 290 and protected by Form D train order. Form D was never issued until Form J, form 5, has been issued, made complete and a BDA device applied on the opposing signals. >From your drawing 4 more sets of crossovers would be helpful to accommodate the full spectrum of moves for a fluid movement of traffic. Rules 316 or 317 are always specified in the timetable with respect to movements against the current in 251 territory. Please see the definition of Clear and Permissive Blocks. Its usually dependent on curvature and sight distance. Also, Passenger Trains are never admitted to an occupied block under these rules. Cab signals are beyond the scope of this discussion and are a whole different subject. I hope you find this helpful. Sid -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Baker Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 8:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Admittedly, I'm a real novice when it comes to understanding the various types of signals and their purpose. I know how to read the signals okay but my struggle is in designing a simple signal system for my model railroad. I have an interlocking plant where four main tracks are reduced to three. There are some crossovers thrown in there for good measure. I have drawn my track layout in schematic form below. The normal direction of traffic is indicated by the arrowheads. I do not wish to facilitate reverse moves in the signalling -- the rare instances of reverse moves will be handled by form D. _______________________<---- / _____/_______________<---- <----________/ / <--->__________/ ---->________ \ \ \_____________________----> \_______\_______________----> So if there is a kind and generous soul out there who would be willing to recommend a signal design for this plant I would be forever indebted!! Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] Out of Office AutoReply: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/15/04 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:13:40 -0400 From: Mitoraj Thomas-Q12119 Subject: [PRR] Out of Office AutoReply: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/15/04 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:13:44 -0500 Cc: "Prr-Talk@Dsop. Com" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:31:34 -0400 To: "John and Peg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Jul 14, 2004, at 11:09 PM, John and Peg wrote: > What Sid Johnson said is how I understand it. Except, I think Pennsy > numbered the tracks from south to north? That is correct. Tracks were numbered from south to north and, if I am not mistaken, from west to east on N-S lines. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] For Sale - American Ltd. N Ga. 2D-P5 Trucks Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:50:12 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Do to a purchasing error, I have one American Limited #8190 N Scale = Pennsy 2D-P5 passenger truck kit available for sale. These trucks are = easy to asseble and include plastic wheelsets. Price is $3.60 including = First Class Mail. Contact me directly if interested. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] for sale- HO scale PRR items From: Frederick Ripley Message-Id: <35C1C7DA-D712-11D8-8840-000A95C04372@dsop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk , Conrail-talk , Reading-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - ListServ Comments Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:23:41 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Subscribers: We've now been on the new software for about 36 hours... I know the first digest, which was in mid-process at the time of the upgrade, was botched. This was somewhat anticipated. A new digest went out last night. It appears complete. For those who had the HTML issues with the digest before, please contact me off-list and let me know how it looks. A few "AutoReply" posts got through to the list. The old software stopped these. The new software did not. However, there is a configurable "stop" filter and I have added a few entries that were not there by default. It is catching those now. Any other issues, please contact me off-list. Thanks. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Food for thought: new steam models X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on a steamlocomotive list that I am on. Sunset has done a lot of Pennsy steam in both O and HO. This note was posted by Bill Daniels on the STMFC list. >I just got the following info from an online supplier >I occasionally deal with...looks like Sunset isn't >taking the threat of BLI sitting down. > >we has received the following information from Sunset >Models on a new line of exciting, fully detailed, >limited edition 100% lifetime brass scale models for >"HO". The 20th Century Limited Edition models (ed. >note...funny name!) are built for operators as well as >collectors. Featuring a brand new, all ditital sound >system called "Sunset Sound". Synchronized to the >motion of the drivers, the chuffing sounds will signal >a new standard for "HO" sound and compatibility. Each >model will come with a free box to operate the >whistle and bell and can be used with any existing DC >transformer. > >Install your favorite DCC decoder to have full control >of the features of your new high tech masterpiece. >Enjoy full range of operation. These models have a 12 >volt operation range from 3 volts to 15 volts on the >track. Other sound equipped models won't move until >they reach 9 volts on the track, giving only 1/2 of >the operation range of a 20th Century Limited Edition. > (ed note 2...the starting voltage of BLI's system is >adjustable) >First in the series of fine brass models is the NP >"A" Class 4-8-4. There are 4 different versions to >choose from, the SP&S #700 is still in operation (A-3 >with oil tender). The A-3 with a 6 wheel truck >semi-vanderbuilt coal tender, the A-4 with a grey >painted boiler, stamped pilot, centipede tender, all >weather cab and vestibule. > >SP&S #700 w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-3(open cab)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-4(grey boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $649.95 >NP A-5(black boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 > >===== >Bill Daniels >Las Vegas, NV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Food for thought: new steam models X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on a steamlocomotive list that I am on. Sunset has done a lot of Pennsy steam in both O and HO. This note was posted by Bill Daniels on the STMFC list. >I just got the following info from an online supplier >I occasionally deal with...looks like Sunset isn't >taking the threat of BLI sitting down. > >we has received the following information from Sunset >Models on a new line of exciting, fully detailed, >limited edition 100% lifetime brass scale models for >"HO". The 20th Century Limited Edition models (ed. >note...funny name!) are built for operators as well as >collectors. Featuring a brand new, all ditital sound >system called "Sunset Sound". Synchronized to the >motion of the drivers, the chuffing sounds will signal >a new standard for "HO" sound and compatibility. Each >model will come with a free box to operate the >whistle and bell and can be used with any existing DC >transformer. > >Install your favorite DCC decoder to have full control >of the features of your new high tech masterpiece. >Enjoy full range of operation. These models have a 12 >volt operation range from 3 volts to 15 volts on the >track. Other sound equipped models won't move until >they reach 9 volts on the track, giving only 1/2 of >the operation range of a 20th Century Limited Edition. > (ed note 2...the starting voltage of BLI's system is >adjustable) >First in the series of fine brass models is the NP >"A" Class 4-8-4. There are 4 different versions to >choose from, the SP&S #700 is still in operation (A-3 >with oil tender). The A-3 with a 6 wheel truck >semi-vanderbuilt coal tender, the A-4 with a grey >painted boiler, stamped pilot, centipede tender, all >weather cab and vestibule. > >SP&S #700 w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-3(open cab)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-4(grey boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $649.95 >NP A-5(black boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 > >===== >Bill Daniels >Las Vegas, NV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Athearn "H31B" Composite Hopper (Ready to Roll) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:33:26 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bogus model alert: Athearn #91117, PRR "Class H31B" 34 ft Composite Hopper (5 pack), expected July 2004, MSRP $79.98 http://www.athearn.com/RTR/34_composite_hopper/34composite_hopper.html The Athearn composite twin is a decent model of the War Emergency twin hopper design; however, it does not accurately model PRR Class H31B. The Pennsy cars had Z-section truss members and a different number of boards. Modelers desiring a closer car can use the Accurail composite twin. This car is actually the one-off Class H31A car, but it's much closer to the prototype than the Athearn car. http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2700/2702.jpg http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2700/2752.jpg Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Build Dates etc. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:54:48 -0400 From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Build Dates etc. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:54:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:03:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] renumbering of E-units From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:03:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] renumbering of E-units From: Frederick Ripley From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] water pans Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:33:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone point me to some pictures? Thanks, George New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] water pans Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:33:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone point me to some pictures? Thanks, George New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kent Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR rail guage of 4' 9" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:36:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR rail guage of 4' 9" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rail gauges were marked and could be adjusted. In the steam era track gauge was widened on curves and through turnouts to allow for the steamers' longer wheelbase. So, a 4' 9" gauge was probably a reference to a condition for other than a tangent. A few years ago when the Union Pacific's 8444 4-8-4 was backing through the yards in Denver, Colorado, the centipede tender derailed when it encountered a turnout that was too tight for it. This same route through the yard had been used in the steam era but had been regauged for the diesels. Another amusing story of track gauge was when the U.P. started using their Centennial diesel-electrics from EMD, their rigid frame eight wheel trucks were found to "buck" through the sharper yard and engine terminal turnouts. A few turnouts were regauged for these locos and restrictions were put on them when operating in the yards and terminals. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "fhbimb" Subject: Re: [PRR] water pans Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:43:54 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com George, While this is not an answer to your question you can see in the movie "LaBette Humaine" the operation of water pickup control from the cab/tender view. This is shown in a short segement of the 75 minute movie (VHS) from Timeless Video, Inc. This 1938 movie stars Jean Gabin and Simone Simon and is directed by Jean Renoir. Great railroading! Frank Beberdick ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rudy" To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: [PRR] water pans > One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for > tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone > point me to some pictures? > Thanks, > George > New Bloomfield, Pa. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:28:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First off, thanks to everyone who replied to my question on water pans. I have enough info now that I think I can move forward with that project. Now another problem. I recently bought a copy of a book titled "Bells and Whistles in old Perry". It's great reading covering the Newport & Sherman's Valley that I'm modeling. I did not know it until now that the PRR spur to the freight transfer tracks in Newport actually crossed the narrow gauge track on the N&SV. I doupt I will ever find a ready made crossover of such so hand building will be needed. Problem is I have never hand laid track much less make a crossover. Is there anyone out there willing to make one for me? Of corse I'm willing to pay. The HO standard gauge track is code 83 and the HOn3 track is code 55. The crossover would need to be about 30 degrees. Anybody willing? Thanks, George Rudy New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:28:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First off, thanks to everyone who replied to my question on water pans. I have enough info now that I think I can move forward with that project. Now another problem. I recently bought a copy of a book titled "Bells and Whistles in old Perry". It's great reading covering the Newport & Sherman's Valley that I'm modeling. I did not know it until now that the PRR spur to the freight transfer tracks in Newport actually crossed the narrow gauge track on the N&SV. I doupt I will ever find a ready made crossover of such so hand building will be needed. Problem is I have never hand laid track much less make a crossover. Is there anyone out there willing to make one for me? Of corse I'm willing to pay. The HO standard gauge track is code 83 and the HOn3 track is code 55. The crossover would need to be about 30 degrees. Anybody willing? Thanks, George Rudy New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:54:18 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] LISTING PRR FOR SALE STUFF Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:54:18 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] LISTING PRR FOR SALE STUFF From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Gauges "near standard" In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR rail guage of 4' 9" > From: "Kent Miller" > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 > > Does anyone recall reading that the PRR ever used a rail gauge of 4-feet, > 9-inches in 1866. Thank you, Kent If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in that period. I often read this in relation to PRR affiliates. Remember that interchange was not very common in 1866, so it's hard to assess whether 4-8.5 cars were a problem on the Ohio lines. A look at accounts of US troop movements during the Civil War might give some insight here. Not known -- whether B&O's Ohio affiliates were also 4-9 in this period. Also vague -- most sources are silent on the timing of tightening up the various 4-9 and even 4-10 gauges that existed in the US, especially in the northeast. It's unlikely this all happened overnight just because the Pacific Railroad Act of 1863 set 4-8.5 as standard gauge for the UP/CP. Up for grabs -- most trackage in Kentucky was 5 foot (as a legacy, Louisville's trolley lines stayed 5 foot). However, due to a number of factors, some or all of the LC&L's lines ("Lexington Cincinnati & Louisville") were built to "northern" gauges, and so for example the Short Line came into Louisville as a standard gauge operation. Later under L&N ownership, the LCL lines were converted to 5' -- only to be converted back to 56.5" in the 1880's. Unknown -- were any of the great construction projects of southern railroading in the 1880's built originally at 56.5"? The list might include the Cincinnati Southern (SR's Cincinnati New Orleans & Texas Pacific), the Louisville Southern (now SR from Danville KY to Louisville), or the St. Louis Air Line (now SR from New Albany IN to St. Louis MO). If they were originally built at 4-8.5 (or 4-9), that partially explains the rush from 1886 on to standard-gauge most southern main lines and branches -- my belief is that very little 5' track survived in the south in 1890. Can anyone speak to this interesting but admittedly arcane subject? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:46 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Traction motor abuse... In a message dated 7/14/04 4:36:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > One thing I would comment on. A New Haven Mech engr said that blown > crankshafts on FA/FB power was not much of a problem on NH. That > other roads' Mech people were always calling him, asking him how his > road avoided it. He wrote - in NHRRHTA SHORELINER - that the problem > was engine crews abusing the short-time ratings when climbing > grades. That the big GE traction motors could take plenty of abuse, > but the crankshaft would go. Other type units (EMD) were just the > reverse. A engineer couldn't overtorque the shaft to the breaking > point because the traction motor would burn up first. He advised > that RFEs had to watch their crews and emphasize the short time > ratings (overload) MUST be obeyed! > Interesting comment, as the early EMD traction motors were derived from & very similar to GE traction motors. I've always heard it was Westinghouse tractionmotors that were hard to burn up (larger, more metal per traction motor, therefore longer overamperage rating). Of course, I could be misinformed... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] BAR Geeps In a message dated 7/15/04 4:59:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > From: "Al Buchan" > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps > > Re: Brian's - My research indicates they stayed pretty close to the > docks. > > The BAR GP's were originally leased to work the Erie Docks during the > ore season. They eventually migrated to Cleveland. I really don't know > if they ever made it out on the "high iron." Will be interested to see > photos. > > Al > At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. Since I've always heard they were equipped to PRR specs, my assumption has always been that when on the property they went into the general freight pool with the other GP9's -- of course, the PRR GP9's were not in the Enola "system-wide" pool as late as 1966 or 1974. OTOH, if assigned to mineral service, as on the Cleveland Division, they did get around on occasion. So did the big Alcos, especially during the miners vacation each July. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:52 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] H-10-44 assignments In a message dated 7/14/04 2:45:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The H-10-44s were all Lines West, mostly places like Columbus, Cincy, > Chicago and the like. The like definitely including Xenia, and Dayton. Also, Louisville/Jeffersonville, which makes one wonder about Columbus IN, Indianapolis, etc. One clue -- I've never seen pix of an H-10-44 in Madison, North Madison, nor North Vernon IN (these are three points on the PRR's Madison Branch out of Columbus IN, but then the Madison Branch had its own SD7's). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR rail guage of 4' 9" > From: "Kent Miller" > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 > > Does anyone recall reading that the PRR ever used a rail gauge of 4-feet, > 9-inches in 1866. Thank you, Kent If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in that period. I often read this in relation to PRR affiliates. Remember that interchange was not very common in 1866, so it's hard to assess whether 4-8.5 cars were a problem on the Ohio lines. A look at accounts of US troop movements during the Civil War might give some insight here. Not known -- whether B&O's Ohio affiliates were also 4-9 in this period. Also vague -- most sources are silent on the timing of tightening up the various 4-9 and even 4-10 gauges that existed in the US, especially in the northeast. It's unlikely this all happened overnight just because the Pacific Railroad Act of 1863 set 4-8.5 as standard gauge for the UP/CP. Up for grabs -- most trackage in Kentucky was 5 foot (as a legacy, Louisville's trolley lines stayed 5 foot). However, due to a number of factors, some or all of the LC&L's lines ("Lexington Cincinnati & Louisville") were built to "northern" gauges, and so for example the Short Line came into Louisville as a standard gauge operation. Later under L&N ownership, the LCL lines were converted to 5' -- only to be converted back to 56.5" in the 1880's. Unknown -- were any of the great construction projects of southern railroading in the 1880's built originally at 56.5"? The list might include the Cincinnati Southern (SR's Cincinnati New Orleans & Texas Pacific), the Louisville Southern (now SR from Danville KY to Louisville), or the St. Louis Air Line (now SR from New Albany IN to St. Louis MO). If they were originally built at 4-8.5 (or 4-9), that partially explains the rush from 1886 on to standard-gauge most southern main lines and branches -- my belief is that very little 5' track survived in the south in 1890. Can anyone speak to this interesting but admittedly arcane subject? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR rail guage of 4' 9" > From: "Kent Miller" > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 > > Does anyone recall reading that the PRR ever used a rail gauge of 4-feet, > 9-inches in 1866. Thank you, Kent If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in that period. I often read this in relation to PRR affiliates. Remember that interchange was not very common in 1866, so it's hard to assess whether 4-8.5 cars were a problem on the Ohio lines. A look at accounts of US troop movements during the Civil War might give some insight here. Not known -- whether B&O's Ohio affiliates were also 4-9 in this period. Also vague -- most sources are silent on the timing of tightening up the various 4-9 and even 4-10 gauges that existed in the US, especially in the northeast. It's unlikely this all happened overnight just because the Pacific Railroad Act of 1863 set 4-8.5 as standard gauge for the UP/CP. Up for grabs -- most trackage in Kentucky was 5 foot (as a legacy, Louisville's trolley lines stayed 5 foot). However, due to a number of factors, some or all of the LC&L's lines ("Lexington Cincinnati & Louisville") were built to "northern" gauges, and so for example the Short Line came into Louisville as a standard gauge operation. Later under L&N ownership, the LCL lines were converted to 5' -- only to be converted back to 56.5" in the 1880's. Unknown -- were any of the great construction projects of southern railroading in the 1880's built originally at 56.5"? The list might include the Cincinnati Southern (SR's Cincinnati New Orleans & Texas Pacific), the Louisville Southern (now SR from Danville KY to Louisville), or the St. Louis Air Line (now SR from New Albany IN to St. Louis MO). If they were originally built at 4-8.5 (or 4-9), that partially explains the rush from 1886 on to standard-gauge most southern main lines and branches -- my belief is that very little 5' track survived in the south in 1890. Can anyone speak to this interesting but admittedly arcane subject? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Traction motor abuse... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/14/04 4:36:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > One thing I would comment on. A New Haven Mech engr said that blown > crankshafts on FA/FB power was not much of a problem on NH. That > other roads' Mech people were always calling him, asking him how his > road avoided it. He wrote - in NHRRHTA SHORELINER - that the problem > was engine crews abusing the short-time ratings when climbing > grades. That the big GE traction motors could take plenty of abuse, > but the crankshaft would go. Other type units (EMD) were just the > reverse. A engineer couldn't overtorque the shaft to the breaking > point because the traction motor would burn up first. He advised > that RFEs had to watch their crews and emphasize the short time > ratings (overload) MUST be obeyed! > Interesting comment, as the early EMD traction motors were derived from & very similar to GE traction motors. I've always heard it was Westinghouse tractionmotors that were hard to burn up (larger, more metal per traction motor, therefore longer overamperage rating). Of course, I could be misinformed... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] BAR Geeps X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/15/04 4:59:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > From: "Al Buchan" > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps > > Re: Brian's - My research indicates they stayed pretty close to the > docks. > > The BAR GP's were originally leased to work the Erie Docks during the > ore season. They eventually migrated to Cleveland. I really don't know > if they ever made it out on the "high iron." Will be interested to see > photos. > > Al > At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. Since I've always heard they were equipped to PRR specs, my assumption has always been that when on the property they went into the general freight pool with the other GP9's -- of course, the PRR GP9's were not in the Enola "system-wide" pool as late as 1966 or 1974. OTOH, if assigned to mineral service, as on the Cleveland Division, they did get around on occasion. So did the big Alcos, especially during the miners vacation each July. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] BAR Geeps X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/15/04 4:59:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > From: "Al Buchan" > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps > > Re: Brian's - My research indicates they stayed pretty close to the > docks. > > The BAR GP's were originally leased to work the Erie Docks during the > ore season. They eventually migrated to Cleveland. I really don't know > if they ever made it out on the "high iron." Will be interested to see > photos. > > Al > At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. Since I've always heard they were equipped to PRR specs, my assumption has always been that when on the property they went into the general freight pool with the other GP9's -- of course, the PRR GP9's were not in the Enola "system-wide" pool as late as 1966 or 1974. OTOH, if assigned to mineral service, as on the Cleveland Division, they did get around on occasion. So did the big Alcos, especially during the miners vacation each July. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] H-10-44 assignments X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/14/04 2:45:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The H-10-44s were all Lines West, mostly places like Columbus, Cincy, > Chicago and the like. The like definitely including Xenia, and Dayton. Also, Louisville/Jeffersonville, which makes one wonder about Columbus IN, Indianapolis, etc. One clue -- I've never seen pix of an H-10-44 in Madison, North Madison, nor North Vernon IN (these are three points on the PRR's Madison Branch out of Columbus IN, but then the Madison Branch had its own SD7's). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Layout room paint X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 5/29/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:03 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > and/or Tuscan Red? > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > use black. > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? I'm toying with dark building tint for the fascia. Dirt brown, one might say. But then my control panels are a lively green. I'm tempted to spray the ceiling black despite all advice not to. The alternative (a finished drop ceiling, giving up headroom, airspace, and access to all wiring, plumbing, etc) does not appeal to me. I like the theatre/restaurant effect. BTW, if that's a panel door you're referring to, paint the panels light and the rails dark tint -- nothing succeeds like the prototype. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR track gauge redux Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:15:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain / BCW B60b Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Pennsy B60b cars (PENNSYLVANIA letterboard version) being built-up by Bethlehem Car Works via InterMountain are now sold out at InterMountain. So if you were planning to see them at your local dealer before committing, you better consider "Plan B"! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:28:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BAR Geeps X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/19/04 6:34:53 AM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. >> My wife and I went to the wedding of one of her room mates, propably in 1965 or 1966 (because I was still with the Pennsy), in Canton, Ohio. I remember seeing two BAR units and seem to remember them in a yard area. They stuck in my mind because they were purple and yellow and were bright and polished, just as if they had come directly from the new engine show room. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: [MerchServ] Atlas / InterMountain / Morning Sun Books / Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:31:37 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:52:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout room paint X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, Stay away from the black ceiling. You will have one "black hole" to suck up all of the room light that should be reflected (or refracted) on to the layout. One of our round robin group tried painting the joists, and pipe and duct work only to find is severely darkened the room. The rework took four coats of sprayed on white paint to cover the flat black. After which, a coat of very light gray was applied as the white had the same effect in the opposite direction, too light. The light gray also has the quality of being neutral thus not offsetting the colors on the layout. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:20:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in > that > period. <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:19:51 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Traction motor abuse... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com RickTipton@aol.com writes: >Interesting comment, as the early EMD traction motors were derived from & very similar to GE traction motors. �I've always heard it was Westinghouse tractionmotors that were hard to burn up (larger, more metal per traction motor, therefore longer overamperage rating). >Of course, I could be misinformed... >Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Rick, You are correct about the Westnghouse traction motors, but when ALCo introduced the GE 752's they were likely a match for the Westinghouse. One issue was the need to cool them and that is why you see the vents on the FA1/2 and the PA's. They also appeared on the B&O FA's and the Erie/Lacamoney PA's (louvers on the side of the nose). The crank shaft failures were an unreleated issue from what I have read, explain to me why they went down on the RS2/3's. Rick I know that you have the old issues of Mainline form the 80's and if you do re-read the RS-2/3 development articles and you will fine some of the crankshaft issues there. Also why the PRR classed their D&H purchased RS-2s the way they did as they were the tail end of the RS-2 production, as ALCo decided to get the fuel tank from under the floor of the RS-2 and away from the traction motors on the rear truck. Also I can't thank Bill Volmer enough for a contact he gave me to a guy in Iowa that worked for ALCo while I was researching my PA article for Mainline Modeler as he was a great insight to ALCo of the 50's. He filledin a lot of gaps for me in my rersearch. ALso read the FA1/2 articles they are of great value. BTW, Stu said he was headed to St. Louis for the Prototype Modelers meet are you planning to be there. Also while reorganizing the garage over the weekend I stumbled across a Trains Magazne from April of '46 (I believe it was) that had an interesting article on the EMD F-3 which they mentions nothing on the F-2's but regard this unit as an upgraded FT. A test bed for the new carbody changes of the F-3... Intersting how times changes all... History, very interesting. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:20:22 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in > that > period. <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR Class F1 Mogul Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:11:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lists, I have just completed my PRR F1 Mogul built from an MDC Roundhouse = 2-6-0. I know the driver spacing is incorrect, but other than that, it = came out pretty darn close - at least you can tell what it's supposed to = represent! To have a look, go to: = http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/afi.sized.jpg There are = other shots at "aff" through "afk". This one required more modifications to the shell than the H3 2-8-0's = from the MDC Consolidations. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] G22c Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:06:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to the Keystone VIII #3, G22c conversions around 1960 with the extension of the sides to 7'-4' for use in scrap service. Eldon Gatwood's article in TKM #6 and the instructions to Westerfield G22 kits state this also. I realize they both may have used the Keystone article as a source. Page 8 of the Keystone mentioned above contains 2 photo's of cars converted to this service. The upper picture shows a beat up CK car with an ACI label clearly putting in into the mid-60's at earliest. It's the lower picture that has me scratching my head. It appears to be a builders picture of one of the scrap conversion cars. However the reweigh date in March 1940 and the repack date is ?-?-39. Was this car a one-off conversion not repeated until the 60's, or may have there been others running around? It's interesting to note the structure of the extension looks similar on the two cars even though they are 20+ years apart. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:00:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Skip the use of the Walthers or Atlas crossover. Narrow gauge slipped my mind. Try building one at the work bench. Guaranteed you will surprise yourself. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:55:22 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Cafe Coach Question Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone have any information on the train assignment(s) of Cafe Coach (PC70br) #1112? A friend recently received a slide of the car stored in Northumberland in Jun. 1965, apparently awaiting conversion to work train service or scrapping. By that time it had received a "round roof." Reply off-list to vck@andrew.cmu.edu Thanks, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] B60b Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:44:08 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Saw on the Mercandise Service page that they are sold out so I went to Walthers and they had this description. This car was more versatile than I thought! (Ad shows a B60b) Pennsylvania Railroad Walthers Part # 85-5000 HO scale, $59.95, not currently in stock at Walthers, Expected: TBA n partnership with Centralia Car Shops, these new passenger cars are ready-to-run versions of the Pennsylvania Railroads P85bR 44-seat coaches. These detailed cars feature diecast metal trucks with 46 metal wheels, complete underbody detail, individual wire handrails, aluminum window trim and Kadee couplers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] B60b Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:44:08 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Saw on the Mercandise Service page that they are sold out so I went to Walthers and they had this description. This car was more versatile than I thought! (Ad shows a B60b) Pennsylvania Railroad Walthers Part # 85-5000 HO scale, $59.95, not currently in stock at Walthers, Expected: TBA n partnership with Centralia Car Shops, these new passenger cars are ready-to-run versions of the Pennsylvania Railroads P85bR 44-seat coaches. These detailed cars feature diecast metal trucks with 46 metal wheels, complete underbody detail, individual wire handrails, aluminum window trim and Kadee couplers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Hotbox Detector Locations Anyone have an interest in the locations of Hotbox Detectors? I have a booklet issued around 1966, listing location of hotbox, and broken flange detectors. I thought about putting this information on the website but the pages are pretty faded and each region comes with a map with the locations marked on it. If there is any interest in certain locations, email me and I can give you what I have. As of 1966, the Chicago Division had no hotbox or broken flange detectors. Randy www.prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9D6E970C-DA70-11D8-AAD6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with "List of Reportable Locations". Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they utilized rail service or not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9D6E970C-DA70-11D8-AAD6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with "List of Reportable Locations". Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they utilized rail service or not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:42 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Hotbox Detector Locations Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:11 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps Message-Id: <81D89CDF-DA74-11D8-B9C7-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "PRR-TALK TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Interesting load Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:44:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I found an interesting photograph of a Russian export 2-8-0 steam engine on PRR F30A 474099 on page 82 of "The United States Military Railway Service, America's Soldier-Railroaders in WWII", by Don DeNevi and Bob Hall (ISBN 1-55046-021-8). In the background is a car (GS gon?) laden with coal with only a portion of its lettering, "ERN PA" (sans serif style), visible. The flat appears to have a reweigh date of 6-42. Given that flats traveled far more than GS gons full of coal, I wonder if this photograph was taken on the left coast of a locomotive preparing to head to Vladivostok via the Pacific? The tender is presumably on another flat car out of the picture. BTW, in case you're feeling like investing in flat cat loads, the locomotive appears to be very close to the DJH (HO) kit. http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/acatalog/ DJH_Model_Locomotive_American_HO_Scale_Kits__76.html Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:04:06 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35CE5F4@HERZOGMGMT> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 17:51:40.0082 (UTC) FILETIME=[35CFA120:01C46E82] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The BAR Geeps were only on the property 6 months per year so you have to look at the date of the sheets. In the early years they were assigned to Erie and later years to Cleveland 55th St. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Randy Williamson Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:25 PM To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps When I look at the locomotive assignment sheets I have, the BAR Geeps are not even listed. They list other units (i.e. P&WV AS616) but not the Geeps. Randy http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:07:41 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:11 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps When I look at the locomotive assignment sheets I have, the BAR Geeps are not even listed. They list other units (i.e. P&WV AS616) but not the Geeps. Randy http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:24:32 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:24:32 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:35:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Tower Sheets From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <8C618D9F-DA7B-11D8-AAD6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone have any tower sheets from LEMO, STATE, HARRIS, ROCKVILLE, BANKS, or VIEW from 1954? I'd like to review one or more, to determine power assignments on various trains, as well as train sizes. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:44:02 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West Bob, Thanks for tracking down Chris' exposition of this. I knew there had to be= a=20 better account of this than my memory that PRR's Ohio lines were wider than= =20 56.5" gauge. Since Chris Baer's notes like this are impeccably researched,= we=20 can all relax, knowing that we have found the authoritative answer. Now I'm still looking for a reliable account of those lines in northern=20 Kentucky which were other than 5' (southern) gauge, and when the regaugings= in=20 Kentucky took place. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 In a message dated 7/20/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR track gauge redux > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) >=20 > The following is copied from a post Chris Baer made to the > 19thCenturyLimited Yahoo group back in June of 2001: >=20 > According to minutes and annual reports, the PRR was 4'8-1/2" as > built. The O&P/Fort Wayne was 4'10". The Steubenville &Indiana was > originally planned as standard gauge, but changed to 4'10" when the > Steubenville bridge was delayed and it became clear they would have > to > connect with the Cleveland &Pittsburgh. At Pittsburgh, the PRR came > in on one side of the second depot (ca. 1858) and the O&P on the > other. The Camden &Amboy system of roads in N.J. was also 4'10". > Wide-tread wheels were used from Lines West to east starting ca. > 1860. The Camden &Amboy adopted wheels that moved on the axle ca. > 1862 in order to be able to run through cars between Jersey City and > Washington. >=20 > In 1868, the PRR changed its standard to 4'9", and its principal > western affiliates changed to 4'9-1/2" in 1868-69. In 1872, the > United N.J. RR. changed in two steps to 4'9-1/2" and then to 4'9". > The West Jersey RR system did the same in 1873. In 1878, the Grand > Rapids &Indiana changed from 4'9-1/4" to 4'9". Around 1880, 4'9" > became the PRR standard for both Lines East and Lines West. The > Camden &Atlantic RR converted from 4'9" to 4'8-1/2" in 1890, and in > Aug. 1892, the PRR established 4'8-1/2" as the system standard. >=20 > End of copied material. >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob Also, Lee Rainey wrote: Subj: Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard"=A0=20=20=20 Date: 7/19/04 8:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time=20=20=20=20 From: LeeRainey=20=20=20 To: RickTipton, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, lnrr@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.co= m,=20 PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20=20 =20=20=20=20 In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in=20 > that=20 > period.=A0=20 <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron=A0= =20 > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to= =20 > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->=20 Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remember= ing Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to =3D PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com=20 Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ =20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:44:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, Thanks for tracking down Chris' exposition of this. I knew there had to be=20= a=20 better account of this than my memory that PRR's Ohio lines were wider than=20 56.5" gauge. Since Chris Baer's notes like this are impeccably researched,=20= we=20 can all relax, knowing that we have found the authoritative answer. Now I'm still looking for a reliable account of those lines in northern=20 Kentucky which were other than 5' (southern) gauge, and when the regaugings=20= in=20 Kentucky took place. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 In a message dated 7/20/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR track gauge redux > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) >=20 > The following is copied from a post Chris Baer made to the > 19thCenturyLimited Yahoo group back in June of 2001: >=20 > According to minutes and annual reports, the PRR was 4'8-1/2" as > built. The O&P/Fort Wayne was 4'10". The Steubenville &Indiana was > originally planned as standard gauge, but changed to 4'10" when the > Steubenville bridge was delayed and it became clear they would have > to > connect with the Cleveland &Pittsburgh. At Pittsburgh, the PRR came > in on one side of the second depot (ca. 1858) and the O&P on the > other. The Camden &Amboy system of roads in N.J. was also 4'10". > Wide-tread wheels were used from Lines West to east starting ca. > 1860. The Camden &Amboy adopted wheels that moved on the axle ca. > 1862 in order to be able to run through cars between Jersey City and > Washington. >=20 > In 1868, the PRR changed its standard to 4'9", and its principal > western affiliates changed to 4'9-1/2" in 1868-69. In 1872, the > United N.J. RR. changed in two steps to 4'9-1/2" and then to 4'9". > The West Jersey RR system did the same in 1873. In 1878, the Grand > Rapids &Indiana changed from 4'9-1/4" to 4'9". Around 1880, 4'9" > became the PRR standard for both Lines East and Lines West. The > Camden &Atlantic RR converted from 4'9" to 4'8-1/2" in 1890, and in > Aug. 1892, the PRR established 4'8-1/2" as the system standard. >=20 > End of copied material. >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob Also, Lee Rainey wrote: Subj: Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard"=A0 =20 Date: 7/19/04 8:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time =20 From: LeeRainey =20 To: RickTipton, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, lnrr@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com= ,=20 PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com =20 =20 In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in=20 > that=20 > period.=A0=20 <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron=A0=20 > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to=20 > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:34:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/20/2004 9:04:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > Another suggestion, buy an Atlas or Walthers code 83 crossover then adapt > the code 55 to the code 83 on the desired route. The crossover rails of the > > narrow gauge route could be shortened to lessen the amount of code 83 > showing. > My favorite method of adapting one height of rail to another is to take a > cutoff disk across the middle, top of a rail joiner of the larger code rail > then > flatten the tops on one half of the joiner. Next shim or file the flattened > > side so that the smaller rail fits on top of it with the railhead flush with > > that of the larger rail. Then solder the entire thing together. > > Will the narrow gauge line be functional or just for show? > > BTW, it wasn't uncommon for crossovers to be made of one weight of rail > with the cross line adapting its rail to the larger rail to make the > crossing > then returning to the lighter rail. > Right. My recommendation would be to start with a standard gauge code 83 crossover of the correct angle, narrow one route, and attach the code 55 to that in the fashion described above. I built a crossover this way for Jim Foster and it has given 15 years of good service. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:50:44 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 Grabs Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Appologies if this has been mentioned before, but I'm impressed with the fact that the kits include two complete sets. I'm sure this is to allow for breakage, but with care or state of the art nippers that should be a minimal or non-existant problem. I had a 100% non-breakage rate and only lost one end sill grab to low earth orbit during construction of my first kit. What this adds up to is carry-over use of the left-overs to other Bowser cabin kits. The side grabs worked well on the N5b kit I just finished, for example, and the cupola corner grabs look like they'll work on the N5c. I'm sure that the end sill grabs are a universal fit for all three Bowser cabin kits. The only apparent problem is that the body end grabs appear to be out-size for all but the N8. At any rate, being able to use my left-overs from N8 kits will represent significant savings in time (and cursing) in hand-bending wire grabs for those N5b's and N5c's still in the boxes. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:52:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, That is the List of Reportable Locations (Stations-yards-sidings) For use in Car Movement Reporting System CT4001 6-1-64 Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings > Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of > the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. > > I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- > a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall > exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with > "List of Reportable Locations". > > Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? > > In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a > few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other > businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they > utilized rail service or not. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:04:04 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Might I suggest that you have a look at the website of Laurie Green (= http://www.lauriegreen.net ) He has a couple of excellent articles on hand laying of track and turnouts While he isnt a PRR person, I think he knows what he's talking about. He is an NMRA MMR (Master Model Railroader) and an award winning narrow= guage model maker. Cheers from down under. Mick *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 18/07/2004 at 5:28 PM George Rudy did electronicly scribble: >First off, thanks to everyone who replied to my question on water pans. I >have enough info now that I think I can move forward with that project. > >Now another problem. I recently bought a copy of a book titled "Bells and >Whistles in old Perry". It's great reading covering the Newport &= Sherman's >Valley that I'm modeling. I did not know it until now that the PRR spur to >the freight transfer tracks in Newport actually crossed the narrow gauge >track on the N&SV. I doupt I will ever find a ready made crossover of such >so hand building will be needed. Problem is I have never hand laid track >much less make a crossover. Is there anyone out there willing to make one >for me? Of corse I'm willing to pay. The HO standard gauge track is code= 83 >and the HOn3 track is code 55. The crossover would need to be about 30 >degrees. Anybody willing? >Thanks, >George Rudy >New Bloomfield, Pa. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from George Rudy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] SOLVED - Trestle Over Herr Street (Harrisburg) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:45:36 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A while back I was trying to figure out what some remaining trestle piers were for, on either side of the Herr Street underpass in Harrisburg. The valuation map shows a track leading up to the piers, but stopping at Herr Street (east side). The Sanborn maps I had didn't shed any light either. And Harrisburg locals were at a loss. You can view the remnants at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ . Search on Keyword = "Herr Street". Go to the third page of results for 8 or so shots. Yesterday I visited the Pennsylvania State Library. Since the Sanborn's are electronic, quick access, and I was already into them, I brought up the 1929 series for the area... Bingo!!! The trestle fed the coal wharf at Enginehouse #1, which had been about two more blocks west along 7th Street. They would back coal hoppers down from the yard, into the Swift & Co. area, do a switchback, and head up the trestle, cross over the Herr Street underpass, and continue about two more blocks before reaching the coal wharf at the entrance/exit of the loco facility. By the way, the 1929 version of this area would make it REALLY neat for modeling! Anyway, now that I knew what the track was, I looked where more of you would have immediate access to... "Triumph II". On page 227 you will find a 1929 track diagram that shows it. On the inside back cover is a 1942 track diagram and it is gone. The new Maclay Street loco facility was built in 1937-38, so the old Enginehouse #1 would have been removed around that time and the wharf with it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:49:53 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading Chris, I apologize -- I did not realize I was rehashing this subject. Certainly I'm glad to see your answer (below), and also the quote of your previous, detailed description (courtesy of Greg Martin and quoted in an earlier previous posting). The idea of "compromise gauge" cars is scary -- I've always read that it was a bit chancy. OTOH, it's interesting to think of the planning that went into all the PRR system gauge reductions (apparently carried off a half inch at a time) until 56.5" was reached. It really says something about the interchange strength of the PRR that most southern roads' regauging circa 1886 was to 4'9", to match Pennsy's gauge at the time... In a message dated 7/19/04 2:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:33:53 -0400 > From: "Chris Baer" > Subject: RE: Gauges "near standard" > > Rick, > > There has been a discussion of this either on this list or the PRRT&HS > discussion forum, perhaps over a year ago. I do not have all the information at > hand, but at a very early date, the PRR adopted a 4'-9" gauge, which was its > standard through the 19th century. The Lines West lines in Ohio (plus the > Central Ohio and a number of others) were so-called "Ohio Gauge" of 4'10", as > were the lines of the Camden &Amboy and its affiliated lines (aka "New Jersey > Gauge"). From about 1860, cars in through service used so-called compromise > trucks with a wide tread to negotiate both gauges. The PRR gradually narrowed > its Lines West and Jersey lines soon after acquiring them during the 1870s. > Some of the dates are recorded in annual reports and minutes, and I posted > them during the original discussion. > > It may be of interest that when the southern railroads were changed from > 5'-0" gauge in 1886, they adopted the PRR standard of 4'-9" because of the > importance of interchange with the PRR. > > The narrowing from 4'-9" to 4'-8-1/2" is much more poorly documented. Ca. > 1900, the PRR was actually using both gauges, varying between freight and > passenger main tracks and between straightaway and curves. > > Chris Baer > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:49:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Chris, I apologize -- I did not realize I was rehashing this subject. Certainly I'm glad to see your answer (below), and also the quote of your previous, detailed description (courtesy of Greg Martin and quoted in an earlier previous posting). The idea of "compromise gauge" cars is scary -- I've always read that it was a bit chancy. OTOH, it's interesting to think of the planning that went into all the PRR system gauge reductions (apparently carried off a half inch at a time) until 56.5" was reached. It really says something about the interchange strength of the PRR that most southern roads' regauging circa 1886 was to 4'9", to match Pennsy's gauge at the time... In a message dated 7/19/04 2:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:33:53 -0400 > From: "Chris Baer" > Subject: RE: Gauges "near standard" > > Rick, > > There has been a discussion of this either on this list or the PRRT&HS > discussion forum, perhaps over a year ago. I do not have all the information at > hand, but at a very early date, the PRR adopted a 4'-9" gauge, which was its > standard through the 19th century. The Lines West lines in Ohio (plus the > Central Ohio and a number of others) were so-called "Ohio Gauge" of 4'10", as > were the lines of the Camden &Amboy and its affiliated lines (aka "New Jersey > Gauge"). From about 1860, cars in through service used so-called compromise > trucks with a wide tread to negotiate both gauges. The PRR gradually narrowed > its Lines West and Jersey lines soon after acquiring them during the 1870s. > Some of the dates are recorded in annual reports and minutes, and I posted > them during the original discussion. > > It may be of interest that when the southern railroads were changed from > 5'-0" gauge in 1886, they adopted the PRR standard of 4'-9" because of the > importance of interchange with the PRR. > > The narrowing from 4'-9" to 4'-8-1/2" is much more poorly documented. Ca. > 1900, the PRR was actually using both gauges, varying between freight and > passenger main tracks and between straightaway and curves. > > Chris Baer > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: Frederick Ripley Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: Frederick Ripley From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] PRR F-Units Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:58:43 -0700 From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:14:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List. Yes, THE BROADWAYS 2 lounge cars were THE HARBOR COVE and HARBOR REST. The Broadway required only two sets of equipment and these cars , built for the 1948-49 BROADWAY were used exclusively. Actually the cars were originally built with a barber shop and secretary,s room along with I belive 3 double bedrooms and a phone. Sometime in the early fifties the cars were converted to 5 double bedroom cars but still retaining the phone. On occasion when one or possible both of these cars required shopping a 6dbl bedroom car from the "Falls" pool would sub. Yes, The cars on the GENERAL were 1948-49 era FALLS cars. The diner lounges were from the vast fleet of PENNSY diners. When meals were not being served the cars were open to passengers to use as a lounge. Hope this helps Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:48:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] For the Harrisburgers... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <29B6DA39-DB3E-11D8-85D6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As many of you know, I am attempting to model Harrisburg with a very high (okay, sick) degree of accuracy, for 1954. I am specifically recreating a 7/10 mile long stretch of the right-of-way from Paxton Street to Herr Street. For those that are interested, I have updated the web pages pertaining to this stretch. The URL is... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/harrisburg/ The process thus far has been: 1. Valuation maps, which provide "blueprints" for the trackwork, but generally no real indication of which industry was where, etc. 2. CT1000E, which provides list of online customers from 1945, noted at 1/10 mile increments. Certain landmarks are noted at specific mileposts, so it can be estimated the general area of these customers, but not which side of the RoW they are on. 3. Sanborn maps, which provide property lines for non-railroad structures, and indicate address numbers on streets. The rail detail is generally not that good. I've received 1956 maps with some changes from the 1949-ish maps referenced, but they are not shown yet. 4. Polk City Directory, which cross references street/address numbers to business names... finally connecting the CT1000 entries with physical locations! The CT1000 was last printed in 1945, while the Polk data is current at 1954. There are differences, and many of the changes are noted on the web pages. My next task is acquiring photos of the structures involved. I have some, but they are few and far between. I have a trip to the Pennsylvania State Archives planned, as there is a specific collection that should provide many aerial photos of this area from 1952-ish. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:09:01 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Subject: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:25:23 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, The Harbor series cars used on the "Broadway" were=20 actually 6-section/lounge cars(PS6L). These were=20 two-of-akind and used specifically for this service. On=20 occasion, when one or both were being shopped a=20 5-section/lounge (PS5L) was substituted. This practice was=20 like that doen with the Mountain and Tower View (POS21),=20 they could be substituted with a President series=20 car(POS211a), or other POS class car. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. Frederick Ripley wrote: Hello All, I am looking at PRR 4/24/66 PTT, and have a couple of=20 questions about lounge cars on Chicago trains: (1) The "Broadway" still included a lounge (bar), which=20 also had 5 double bedrooms; these were "Harbor Cove" and "Harbor Rest",=20 correct? (2) The "General" carried a lounge (bar) with 6 double=20 bdrms; would this have been one of the "Falls"-series cars? (3) The secondary trains ("Penn. Ltd.", "Admiral",=20 "Manhattan Ltd") all carried a diner (lounge). What cars covered this=20 service? Thanks for any info, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:57:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR obs. (was lounge cars) From: Frederick Ripley From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:40:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR obs. (was lounge cars) X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Samuel Rae ended up at the Indiana Railway Museum in the 1970s. I guess it is still around someplace in Indiana. At least one more car was saved, and is in Texas. There may be a third car out west, as well. At least one "Colonial" car was saved and is in charter service out of LA, and a couple of the "Falls" cars are on the East coast. I was looking at a photo I took of one of the Harbor Cove, in the scrap line, back in May of '72. Amtrak for the most part, didn't want any part of Pullman-built carbon steel PRR cars and the Penn Central unloaded them very quickly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: fjr@mchsi.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:31:58 -0400 To: John Frantz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John: Your information is backwards (at least for the majority of time). The Harbor Cove and Harbor Rest, assigned to the Broadway Limited, were 5 Double Bedroom-Lounge cars, class PS5LA, built to plan 4141. The PS6L cars were 6 Double Bedroom-Lounge cars and were the FALLS series. The PS6L's were used as subs for the PS5LA's, when so needed. Worth noting that there were two other Harbor cars... Harbor Springs and Harbor Point. These were class PS5L, built to plan 4077A. As of 1954 they were assigned to The Akronite. On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 PM, John Frantz wrote: > The Harbor series cars used on the "Broadway" were actually > 6-section/lounge cars(PS6L). These were two-of-akind and used > specifically for this service. On occasion, when one or both were > being shopped a 5-section/lounge (PS5L) was substituted. This practice > was like that doen with the Mountain and Tower View (POS21), they > could be substituted with a President series car(POS211a), or other > POS class car. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:29:01 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West In a message dated 7/21/04 8:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CBuccol writes: > Accoring to Maury Klein's L&N history, the early LC&L segements were built > to 5' gauge as was the Short Line but were as changed to standard on August > 13, 1871, primarily to make it necessary to "break bulk" at Louisville due to > this gauge difference. Kincaird Herr's company history indicates that the > LC&L and the Pennsy had a gauge of 4' 9" pre-dating the L&N system-wide change > over to standard gauge in May, 1886. Thus it appears that the Short Line's > rails needed only a 1/2 inch adjustment, if any at all, when the change to > Standard Gauge was made. > cfb It's not a complete shock that the LC&L and the Pennsy would have the same gauge, especially since they shared terminal facilities in Cincinnati after 1872. Note to all: do be careful about reading descriptions such as "change over to standard gauge" re the 1880's regaugings from 5 feet. For many years, I assumed this meant to the B&O gauge (4'8.5"). Apparently in many/most cases in the south (per Chris Baer and other sources now), this actually meant changing to 4'9" (Pennsy's gauge at the time). As Chris Baer points out, the last half inch happened sometime later, and to much less publicity. Also, as Charlie Buccola reminded me in a meeting today, changing gauge on cars was a simple matter. The most expensive impact on changing gauge was adapting locomotives on-hand to the new gauge. Whether you were the Ohio & Mississippi (faced with reducing gauge from Erie-compatible 6 foot), or an L&N (going down from 5') or for that matter a Pennsy affiliate in Ohio (going down from 4'10"), you were likely to have some power that just couldn't be adapted, and had to be "sold down the river" to wherever its gauge was still in use. The alternative was scrapping. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/21/04 1:03:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WAMMP236 writes: > My Apologies, > trying to find a contact person for PRR talk. > thanks > > Bill Ah -- you're looking for Jerry Britton at . Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:29:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/21/04 8:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CBuccol writes: > Accoring to Maury Klein's L&N history, the early LC&L segements were built > to 5' gauge as was the Short Line but were as changed to standard on August > 13, 1871, primarily to make it necessary to "break bulk" at Louisville due to > this gauge difference. Kincaird Herr's company history indicates that the > LC&L and the Pennsy had a gauge of 4' 9" pre-dating the L&N system-wide change > over to standard gauge in May, 1886. Thus it appears that the Short Line's > rails needed only a 1/2 inch adjustment, if any at all, when the change to > Standard Gauge was made. > cfb It's not a complete shock that the LC&L and the Pennsy would have the same gauge, especially since they shared terminal facilities in Cincinnati after 1872. Note to all: do be careful about reading descriptions such as "change over to standard gauge" re the 1880's regaugings from 5 feet. For many years, I assumed this meant to the B&O gauge (4'8.5"). Apparently in many/most cases in the south (per Chris Baer and other sources now), this actually meant changing to 4'9" (Pennsy's gauge at the time). As Chris Baer points out, the last half inch happened sometime later, and to much less publicity. Also, as Charlie Buccola reminded me in a meeting today, changing gauge on cars was a simple matter. The most expensive impact on changing gauge was adapting locomotives on-hand to the new gauge. Whether you were the Ohio & Mississippi (faced with reducing gauge from Erie-compatible 6 foot), or an L&N (going down from 5') or for that matter a Pennsy affiliate in Ohio (going down from 4'10"), you were likely to have some power that just couldn't be adapted, and had to be "sold down the river" to wherever its gauge was still in use. The alternative was scrapping. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:44:05 -0400 From: WAMMP236@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Harbor Cars were 5 DOUBLE BEDROOM CARS not 6 Section The fill in cars were 6 Double Bedroom cars from the FALLS pool not 5 section Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:15:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series From: Frederick Ripley From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:22:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:22:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullmans Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:14:51 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:48:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullmans X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/22/2004 5:22:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: The Branchline Pullman that is out now would be seen on what trains in the 55-57 period? What about the ones coming out soon? Thanks, Chris Chany The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, and 36. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:57:49 -0500 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Branchline Pullmans Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich wrote: > >The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, and 36. > Chris--There is more. Go to Jerry's Keystone Crossings. Lots of info in Passenger Ops, 24 Hours at Harrisburg in Sep 1954. Try http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.html Look for 574 and 575 in the Second and Third Tricks. Two 8-1-2 (or 8-2-1)Pullmans from train 1 from New York to train 575 to Erie and Buffalo. Going the other way, they get added to train 20. If you look at train 1 at 10:12 pm (Second Trick), it shows the names of the cars, which unfortunately are not the names offered on the Branchline cars. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:57:49 -0500 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Branchline Pullmans Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich wrote: > >The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, and 36. > Chris--There is more. Go to Jerry's Keystone Crossings. Lots of info in Passenger Ops, 24 Hours at Harrisburg in Sep 1954. Try http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.html Look for 574 and 575 in the Second and Third Tricks. Two 8-1-2 (or 8-2-1)Pullmans from train 1 from New York to train 575 to Erie and Buffalo. Going the other way, they get added to train 20. If you look at train 1 at 10:12 pm (Second Trick), it shows the names of the cars, which unfortunately are not the names offered on the Branchline cars. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:15:24 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary, Beaver Falls #8734 PS 12-1 2410 3813 Pullman PRR Red; Pull. Std. (12/20/18); PRR Red (4/9/24); MDD4973G (nd) 10/3/10 New 1910; 1910A 6/24/36) Sold To PRR LTP 12/31/48 12/10/52 1x28.5"; 1x16 (nd); 2x8 (4/5/29); 2x8 New style (6/24/36) 3T 1 pt Ice 6/24/36 Gothic 246; RG Steel plates (1/12/22) PM 2x16; UC 2x16 (nd) Beaver Falls Inn #8244 PS 21b 9513 9667 Budd PRR Red 2/12/49 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 2/12/49 4/4/63 3x15 & 1x12 4T 2 pt EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR 4x12 Converted to Coach-Bar-Lnge P85L# , 10/63. Bought from Pullman 1946. >From Tom Madden's List. Regards, Eddie Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was > told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the > years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger > Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. > Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR 21 Roomettes Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:39:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I need to model a few of these cars. Does anyone happen to know which Inn series cars were assigned to train 580/581 in 1957 or around that time. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Set Up Running Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:02:55 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Two weeks ago I had the opportunity to poke around the Elmira br between = Canton and Trout Run. PRR fan John Swartz lives in Canton with the old = roadbed behind his house. We were particularly looking for the S&NY = connection at Marshhill Jct. , the coalmines around Ralston and the = Grays Run line. As we turned around just above the S&NY r-o-w I spotted a tiny cemetery = and commented that we should get a gravestone date and use the location = as a reference point later when checking the old topos online. John raced back to his van for his camera and asked if I recognized the = name on a particular stone. I stated that it indeed was familiar. He = said this was the Oscar Orr from the book, Set Up Running. Looking = around I then noticed another Orr stone. It was John Orr's, the writer. He died in 2001,the same year as his = book was published. After reading the preface we are lucky to have it = at all ,only due to his perseverence. =20 I wonder if he lived long enough to see the book go on sale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Terraserver Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:11:21 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was trying to look up a portion of Philadelphia and have discovered there are two Terrservers on the internet now. One is terraserver.com that only allows very limited magnification and is basically useless without a large fee. The old familiar Terraserver is terraserver.microsoft.com and still allows fairly high resoloution and magnification. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Terraserver Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:11:21 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was trying to look up a portion of Philadelphia and have discovered there are two Terrservers on the internet now. One is terraserver.com that only allows very limited magnification and is basically useless without a large fee. The old familiar Terraserver is terraserver.microsoft.com and still allows fairly high resoloution and magnification. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edmund Burbage" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:57:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My computer has been down, have there been any PRR info sent by anyone = recently? I haven't received any and I was signed in and have gotten = them until my crash recently. Would appreciate any reply to check my sign in on this URL. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:29:06 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Gauge and the PRR In a message dated 7/22/04 3:37:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:13 -0400 > From: rbregler@netscape.net > Subject: Re: Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading > > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 rearends > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > > Dick Bregler > Maybe because it's too good (and too often repeated as gospel) to be true or relevant or at all interesting. Periodially, some archeologist with a tape measure will pronounce that the Babylonians or the Sumerians or the Medes used this gauge even earlier. Again, it's possible -- but have warhorses' hindquarters not changed at all in the last 4000 years? And what about draft animals (much larger)? Although 56.5" may be systematic or on the other hand a totally arbitrary gauge does not detract from the fascinating writhing and thrashing necessary to bring US (and British) railroading to a common gauge. Having this detailed for the PRR Lines West family has been very satisfying. Thanks to all for a most interesting and informative thread... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:29:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/22/04 3:37:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:13 -0400 > From: rbregler@netscape.net > Subject: Re: Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading > > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 rearends > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > > Dick Bregler > Maybe because it's too good (and too often repeated as gospel) to be true or relevant or at all interesting. Periodially, some archeologist with a tape measure will pronounce that the Babylonians or the Sumerians or the Medes used this gauge even earlier. Again, it's possible -- but have warhorses' hindquarters not changed at all in the last 4000 years? And what about draft animals (much larger)? Although 56.5" may be systematic or on the other hand a totally arbitrary gauge does not detract from the fascinating writhing and thrashing necessary to bring US (and British) railroading to a common gauge. Having this detailed for the PRR Lines West family has been very satisfying. Thanks to all for a most interesting and informative thread... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:41:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/24/2004 7:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > > > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 > rearends > > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > Please refer to Professor George Hilton's book Amereican Narrow Gauge for an authoritative debunking of this myth and a review of the actual origins of the gauge, based on an article published in the American Railway Review in the 18 -- yes 18 -- 50s, when the pioneers were still around to speak for themselves. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:41:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR In a message dated 7/24/2004 7:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > > > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 > rearends > > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > Please refer to Professor George Hilton's book Amereican Narrow Gauge for an authoritative debunking of this myth and a review of the actual origins of the gauge, based on an article published in the American Railway Review in the 18 -- yes 18 -- 50s, when the pioneers were still around to speak for themselves. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:41:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR In a message dated 7/24/2004 7:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > > > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 > rearends > > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > Please refer to Professor George Hilton's book Amereican Narrow Gauge for an authoritative debunking of this myth and a review of the actual origins of the gauge, based on an article published in the American Railway Review in the 18 -- yes 18 -- 50s, when the pioneers were still around to speak for themselves. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:16:57 -0400 From: WAMMP236@aol.com Subject: [PRR] QUESTION? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Jerry, Not qoite sure if i had asked about this before. The HORSESHOE CURVE CHAPTER RUNS EXCURSIONS on the old PRR COVE SECONDARY. ( line runs from Hollidaysburg PA to Martinsburg PA. most excursions run from the ex PRR station at ROARING SPRING and go to either Hollidaysburg or Martinsburg. Some originate at Hollidaysburg and go to Roaring Spring) Our next trip is a DINNER TRAIN from Hollidaysburg to Roaring Spring on Septenber 19th. Could we put something on PRR talk about it? Thanks Bill Mangiacarne Treasurer Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Assembling the Branchline 8-1-2s From: "Edmund Burbage" Subject: [PRR] request Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:45:45 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would you please reinstall me on the Mail List. My Computer still isn't = receiving any mail from PRR-Talk Lee Burbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids From: Frederick Ripley Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids From: Frederick Ripley From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:26:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sciota Rapid and Sturgeon Rapids were slab sided and painted Tuscan, Sciota Rapids is at the RRMPA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 12:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids > Hello All, > > Thanks again to all who contributed info to my question about PRR lounge > cars. Now I have a question about a sleeper, the 10-6 Budd-built "Scioto > Rapids". I have the Rivarossi model of this car which is painted in a > "Congressional"-like, mostly stainless-steel scheme. I assume this is > incorrect- other than the various through cars (AT&SF, Cal. Zephyr, MP, > etc.) or the rebuilt "Elberton", I have never seen photos of PRR postwar > sleepers in colors other than tuscan. Anyone know for sure how > "Scioto Rapids" was painted? > > Thanks, Fred > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:40:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Scioto Rapids From: Frederick Ripley From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia picture inquiry Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:53:26 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know of any internet sources for pictures of the main between N. Philadelphia Station and Shore Tower in the late 50's or ear;y 60's? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] C&N CAB SIGNALS Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:08:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR used cab signals on the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Newark, Ohio. They had trackage rights over the B&O to Columbus. The B&O provided the track, dispatching (in Newark) and signalling (PRR position lights), but did the B&O also have PRR cab signals? Sid ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:51:30 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, Scioto Rapids #8451 PS 10-6b 9503 9662 Budd PRR Red D5237A; D5237F (nd) (Smooth (slab) sides) Regards, Eddie Frederick Ripley wrote: > Now I have a question about a sleeper, the 10-6 Budd-built "Scioto > Rapids". I have the Rivarossi model of this car which is painted in a > "Congressional"-like, mostly stainless-steel scheme. I assume this is > incorrect- other than the various through cars (AT&SF, Cal. Zephyr, MP, > etc.) or the rebuilt "Elberton", I have never seen photos of PRR postwar > sleepers in colors other than tuscan. Anyone know for sure how > "Scioto Rapids" was painted? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:56:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Sutton Subject: Re:[PRR] C&N CAB SIGNALS From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Scale houses... Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:38:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <20040727015632.22672.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.7.26.108628 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __OIMO_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __ANY_OUTLOOK_MUA 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __PORN_PHRASE_15_0 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, IN_REP_TO 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, This is a long shot but are there any PRR style scale houses still in existence? The kind I'm interested in are the ones shown on plan 58460. There's a copy on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B Reason for asking is that my local railroad museum (Whippany Railway Museum) is building a ticket booth based on this plan and the guys building it have a few questions on some details and were looking for a real one to take a look at... So if you know of one still around (or have good photos of an original one) please let me know! Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:28:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] P70 w/o air conditioned coaches X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What was the last year that these coaches without air conditioning would have been used on the PRR proper? These were the cars with a row of vents down the center line of the roof. There are photos of them on the P-RSL into the fifties when the State of NJ mandated upgrading or replacement of them. Some were upgraded and the purchase of Budd RDC units eliminated the need for any further upgrades. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:08:50 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One picture shows an NS train at MG and the caption states that the PRR used horizontal red lights on the signals there. Isn't this wrong? If it is true where else did the PRR use them. I thought this was a post PRR change. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70 w/o air conditioned coaches Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:36:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35CEBD9@HERZOGMGMT> Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 13:23:15.0641 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFB53290:01C473DC] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The last ones I remember seeing were on the Pittsburgh commuter trains to Sewickly and Greensburg possibly as late as 1960. They were also used on fan excursions. Can't remember whether the Valpo dummies were a.c. or not when I was in Chicago in 1963. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:28 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] P70 w/o air conditioned coaches What was the last year that these coaches without air conditioning would have been used on the PRR proper? These were the cars with a row of vents down the center line of the roof. There are photos of them on the P-RSL into the fifties when the State of NJ mandated upgrading or replacement of them. Some were upgraded and the purchase of Budd RDC units eliminated the need for any further upgrades. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:38:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:47:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > The PRR changed from 3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red, > at interlockings only, sometime in the 1950's I believe. For instance, > their are a couple of photos in the Ball PRR book on the main west of > Philly that show 2 red lights. Perhaps someone else can supply an > exact > date. I would appreciate knowing this date as well. And was it "all" interlockings, or just some? And was it both signal heads? I realize, of course, that the answer is probably on my own web site somewhere!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:55:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:02:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70fR From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:02:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70fR From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:59:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rid Aspects in Interlocking Signals From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <4314145E-DFE4-11D8-9DF3-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Note change of subject... On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > The PRR changed from 3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red, > at interlockings only, sometime in the 1950's I believe. For instance, > their are a couple of photos in the Ball PRR book on the main west of > Philly that show 2 red lights. Perhaps someone else can supply an > exact > date. > I suspect the changeover was just starting to occur in 1954. The Pittsburgh Division ETT, from September 1954, shows on page 119, section "1280-A2 Fixed signal aspects not in conformity with typical aspects:" It shows interlocking signals with the upper head displaying two horizontal red aspects. The Middle and Philadelphia divisison ETT's of the same date make no mention of red aspects. Neither did a spot check of several others. Was the Pittsburgh Division the test area in 1954? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:08:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35CEC8D@HERZOGMGMT> Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 16:55:52.0432 (UTC) FILETIME=[93590700:01C473FA] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I believe one of the reasons for the conversion was so as to denote a "home signal" as opposed to an intermediate signal. I could be wrong on that, as usual. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 11:56 AM To: Jerry Britton Cc: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article > And was it "all" > interlockings, or just some? I believe it was all interlockings (may have taken a while to convert them all of course). Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] X29's In Express Service Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:16:36 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Volume 6 of the RP Cyc has an article on express box cars which contains = pictures of X29 #100688 with GSC BX high-speed trucks. Was this a one-of-a-kind test or are = there other cars known to have the GSC trucks? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70fR Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:22:59 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, I believe the P70fr was a single vestibule 88 seat coach. There were versions with both paired windows and picture windows. I have kitbashed = a few from ECW kits of ordinary P70s. To answer your original question, I would hazard a guess that they would have used P70GS's. These were a lower density coach for day travel in = long distance trains. I believe they seated 72, or 68 passengers. Sides = are available in HO from Laser Horizons. P70K's sat 56 passengers and were = used for those traveling overnight. The best trains got P85B's for that = service. This is all conjecture on my part based on consist lists, photos (whose captions say nothing about the cars!) and the stated seating capacity = and rest room size. Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Frederick Ripley Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:03 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] P70fR Hello All, As you can tell, I have been taking advantage of my lighter summer = teaching load to work on my passenger car fleet. So now I have a question about P70's: I would like to model a couple that would have been used on secondary trains in the 1960's (to/from Chicago, potentially the = "Admiral", "Penn. Ltd.", "Manhattan Ltd.", and definitely the "Ft. Pitt.", as well = as rider coaches on mail trains 45 and 52). Is the class above (P70fR) the appropriate one for long-distance = service? If so, what is available in HO that represents this car pretty accurately? Thanks, Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:27:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred Ripley asks: > As you can tell, I have been taking advantage of my lighter summer > teaching > load to work on my passenger car fleet. So now I have a question about > P70's: I would like to model a couple that would have been used on > secondary trains in the 1960's (to/from Chicago, potentially the > "Admiral", > "Penn. Ltd.", "Manhattan Ltd.", and definitely the "Ft. Pitt.", as well as > rider coaches on mail trains 45 and 52). > > Is the class above (P70fR) the appropriate one for long-distance service? > If so, what is available in HO that represents this car pretty accurately? Fred, A couple of good references to invest in if you are interested in passenger cars are: Pennsy Streamliners: The Blue Ribbon Fleet, Joe Welsh ISBN 0-89024-293-3 Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvanoia Railroad, Vol 1 Coaches, Liljestrand and Sweetland, ISBN0-931477-00-0 >From them you will learn that the P70fR was a relatively high capacity coiach (84 seats) and therefore was not as lilkely to appear on long distance trains. As a prewar conversion, these would have been pretty worn out by the 1960s... The P70FAR seated slightly fewere passengersd (80) and also represents a prewar conversion. (ECW has a kti) The P70FBR is a postwar conversion seating 80. Note that these car kept their clerestories into the 1950's (ECW has kits) The P70KR and P70GS were prewar long distance conversions, and might be more appropriate for the trains names. Models of both are available from NKP car company (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) as brass sides on a core. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:31:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 03:22 PM, Andy Miller wrote: > I believe the P70fr was a single vestibule 88 seat coach. There were > versions with both paired windows and picture windows. I have > kitbashed a > few from ECW kits of ordinary P70s. > > To answer your original question, I would hazard a guess that they > would > have used P70GS's. These were a lower density coach for day travel in > long > distance trains. I believe they seated 72, or 68 passengers. Sides > are > available in HO from Laser Horizons. P70K's sat 56 passengers and > were used > for those traveling overnight. The best trains got P85B's for that > service. > This is all conjecture on my part based on consist lists, photos (whose > captions say nothing about the cars!) and the stated seating capacity > and > rest room size. My online, searchable database has seating capacities on a per car (specific road number, that is) basis. You can search by class and see what cars held how many, what types of seats they had, etc. This is all from the original PRR 1954 Passenger Car Roster. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:37:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 03:27 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > The P70FBR is a postwar conversion seating 80. Note that these car > kept > their clerestories into the 1950's (ECW has kits) There's a vendor coming out with ready-to-run P70FBR's in N scale. I helped him with roster information and references to published photos. Although most had clerestory roofs, many did have round roofs!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > >> The PRR changed from 3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red, >> at interlockings only, sometime in the 1950's I believe. For instance, >> their are a couple of photos in the Ball PRR book on the main west of >> Philly that show 2 red lights. Perhaps someone else can supply an >> exact >> date. There is no date, because it the PRR did not make a general change from "3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red"! This issue was discussed ad naseum several years ago. Bottom line? Three horizontal lights is a STOP indication. There was/is no need in most cases for a more "absolute" stop! In fact these signals did exist, but they are EXTREMELY RARE on the PRR. I think we cataloged 2 or 3 interlocking with signal heads with them. In "the Ball PRR Book" (aka The Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1940s and 1950s) I find one shot of Slope. Sorry, but one shot a trend does not make... Oregon Rail Supply sells the heads with red LEDs as an "absolute" block signals and the all yellow as "permissive", which is utter boilerwash! Go out and look at (or dig up photos) some interlocking signals in the 1960s, 70's, 80's and 90's and you will see all yellow signals... > I would appreciate knowing this date as well. And was it "all" > interlockings, or just some? And was it both signal heads? > > I realize, of course, that the answer is probably on my own web site > somewhere!!! It is! (in the archives of this list) Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:58:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:55:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 03:46 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > There is no date, because it the PRR did not make a general change > from "3 > horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red"! This issue was > discussed > ad naseum several years ago. Bottom line? Three horizontal lights is > a > STOP indication. There was/is no need in most cases for a more > "absolute" > stop! In fact these signals did exist, but they are EXTREMELY RARE on > the > PRR. I think we cataloged 2 or 3 interlocking with signal heads with > them. In "the Ball PRR Book" (aka The Pennsylvania Railroad in the > 1940s > and 1950s) I find one shot of Slope. Sorry, but one shot a trend does > not > make... I think a few were documented around Gallitzin. But that's just vague recollection. Heck, I think that goes back to the days of Mark Bej participating on the list! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] RULE 292 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:18:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com >From late 1961 thru early 1962 I visited every tower on the Panhandle from Weirton Jct to Bricker including Rockville. It seemed as if the three horizontal lights were there one day and 2 red lights the next. This would apply for aspects and rules 283, 288, 290, 291 and 292. I believe the first ones I saw where either at Morgan Run or Mingo Jct. To my knowledge only Home Signals were changed. I think the N&W made the change earlier. Sid ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:19:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The first red home signals were done in 1954 at Overbrook,52 Street, and Paoli. THere was a G.O. to change all home signals sytem wide. Also you won't see any Grade markers or "G" plates on home signals between Altoona and Gallitzin. All trains must stop at a red home signal. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Hauk" Subject: [PRR] RE: Scale houses Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:55:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35455.63848@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rob, I have 3 color slides of the scale house at Northumberland I took circa 1978. Views are front, front and left side 3/4, and right side. If these might help I can dupe them digitally and email them to you. My wife and kids are out of town with my camera until this weekend, however. Mike Hauk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Subject: Scale houses... From: "Rob Schoenberg" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:38:05 -0400 Hi all, This is a long shot but are there any PRR style scale houses still in existence? The kind I'm interested in are the ones shown on plan 58460. There's a copy on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B Reason for asking is that my local railroad museum (Whippany Railway Museum) is building a ticket booth based on this plan and the guys building it have a few questions on some details and were looking for a real one to take a look at... So if you know of one still around (or have good photos of an original one) please let me know! Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] signal discussion Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:52:12 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I asked our resident Chicago signal guru (Bob Fredland) about this. Bob worked Englewood Tower for many years the worked for Union Switch and Signal. here is his response: Norm, In an effort to be more emphatic in displaying the aspect, per Rule 292, "Stop Signal", the PRR began changing the lamp array in position light signals to display an aspect that consisted of the top head (only) displaying two red lamps in a horizontal configuration, in place of three yellow lamps in a horizontal configuration. The best that I can define, these changes began in 1955. I have an Eastern Districrt (Pittsburgh-Crestline) ETT from Oct.,1955 that is the earliest that mentions it. An April, 1956 Pittsburgh Region ETT also includes mention of this change. These changes are mentioned in the general body of the ETT, not the general order add-ons in the rear. It could be found in the section "Signal aspects not in conformity with typical aspects, in service:" It was further stated that these changes would occur on an individual basis, with no further bulleting. Because of the lamp changes, all aspects requiring an active "B-Head", from "Medium Clear" and more restrictive, ha One internal feature that this made possible was the control of the A-Head hub lamp. Prior to this time, the A-Head hub lamp was illuminated continuously. When the two red horizontal array was instituted, the A-Head hub lamp was illuminated only when needed for upgraded A-Head aspects, less restrictive than "Stop Signal". Anecdotally, I have heard that these changes were not wholly stressed in the electric zone. In my travels, I saw a lot of interlockings out east, in the1970's, still incorporating a three horizontal yellow array on their home signals. Conversely, if you may have noticed in my motion picture in April, there was an example of a the horizontal yellow remaining on an interlocking home signal out here on the west end, quite long after the change over, that being at Kentland, Indiana, shot in 1972. Bob Fredland Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:28:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Signal Colors - Lunar White vs. Yellow X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have, for a long time, gone by the term "lunar white" for the color of lamp used in the Pennsy's three lamp position signals. Is lunar white a correct term for the color? Were there lunar white and yellow aspects used on the Pennsy during the same era? On the Reading, we had lunar white aspects below the signal that were used to allow tonnage trains to pass a stop aspect at a speed allowing the train to stop short of any stopped train, broken rail, thrown turnout, etc. These would be lite solidly for no train in the next block to flashing for a train in the next block. A tonnage train is one that will not be able to start at that point once stopped due to the grade. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:28:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Signal Colors - Lunar White vs. Yellow X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have, for a long time, gone by the term "lunar white" for the color of lamp used in the Pennsy's three lamp position signals. Is lunar white a correct term for the color? Were there lunar white and yellow aspects used on the Pennsy during the same era? On the Reading, we had lunar white aspects below the signal that were used to allow tonnage trains to pass a stop aspect at a speed allowing the train to stop short of any stopped train, broken rail, thrown turnout, etc. These would be lite solidly for no train in the next block to flashing for a train in the next block. A tonnage train is one that will not be able to start at that point once stopped due to the grade. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:54:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com So far no one has mentioned a factor, besides size of restrooms, which makes a coach desirable for long distance travel: namely, reclining seats. The P70kr and P70gsr had 'em. Most of the other P70xx classes did not. The Liljestrand 1952 consist book on East-West trains indicates the latter were used as substitutes in emergencies. Otherwise, P70kr, P70gsr, and P85 were the choice for long distance. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:47:49 -0400 From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Aspects in Interlocking Signals Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:05:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [151.199.239.204] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:07:57 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I spent many evenings in my high school days at Harrington, Delaware waiting for a train to go down the DM&V secondary just to see the different signal aspects. The interlocking signals there were all white until their removal by Conrail in the early '80s. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Re: red interlocking aspects Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:46:39 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The following is from someone preferring to stay off-list. He solicited feedback from several people, including an active Norfolk Southern dispatcher... On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:38 PM, (withheld) wrote: > First introduced lines west, probably sometimes in the 1940's when a > part of it was signalled. Basically, whatever branch this was (and no > body remembers) became the testing ground for the red. > > During the 1950's, this spread from Lines west to Pittsburgh and > Middle divisions so that by early 1960's, most interlockings "railroad > west of harrisburg" had them (automatics were still yellow and never > changed -- just interlockings were red). "By the time conrail took > over", every interlocking west of Harrisburg and the port road > (including LEMO-shock's mill on west shore) had them. No time frame on > port road installation. > > Were tried on parts of NEC and Philadelphia division (old mainline) > near Philly. Hit and miss with a few interlockings having them, > others not. Not consecutive interlockings, but 1 here and there. > During 1980's some SIGNALS would have them, some not. Never more than > "5-10" interlockings east of Harrisburg had them, other than port > road. I'm not saying this is right, just another opinion. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Scale houses Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:59:30 +0000 > Subject: Scale houses... > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:38:05 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Cars of interest MOW style Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:20:58 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Taking a queue from Ben Hom's email the other day I pulled Pennsy Power 3 off the shelf tonight to look for freight cars. In the top photo on page 355 two XL Camp Cars are visible behind the FP7. The third car visible appears to be a X25, X28 or X29. What caught my attention is the CRECo door mounted directly adjacent to the end ladder which opened to the left. It also appears the original door opening was plated over. These changes obviously occurred when the car was modified for MOW service. Does anyone know why this car was converted or have a better picture of it. I assume this is more than just a standard tool or material car. The caption says the picture was taken at Cresson in august 1964. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scale houses... Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:31:23 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rob, I have slides of the scale house at Mt. Union I took in the early '80s - 3/4 left front, 3/4 right front, 3/4 right rear. I can "scan" them with my camera as well if you need them. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Schoenberg To: PRR-talk Cc: Robert Schoenberg Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: [PRR] Scale houses... > Hi all, > > This is a long shot but are there any PRR style scale houses still in > existence? > The kind I'm interested in are the ones shown on plan 58460. There's a copy > on my site at: > http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B > > Reason for asking is that my local railroad museum (Whippany Railway Museum) > is > building a ticket booth based on this plan and the guys building it have a > few > questions on some details and were looking for a real one to take a look > at... > > So if you know of one still around (or have good photos of an original one) > please > let me know! > > Thanks! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:37:11 -0700 Subject: [PRR] F3 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <98636256-E1C0-11D8-AF45-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.155 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, I think someone was asking about the fireman's side of an F3. There's one on eBay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29489&item=2259369298&rd=1#ebayphotohost ing Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] F3 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:30:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg, Hmmm, that photo is already on the web in the PRR roster available at northeast.railfan.net, so have got to wonder if that's a copy. I was the one looking, but it was for a PRR F1 Mogul. I was able to copy the tiny F1 firman's side photo at that website and play with it to get it lasrge enough to work with. I was, after all, building a N scale version! see http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/afi.sized.jpg for a photo of the completed model. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ritacco" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: [PRR] F3 > Hi, > I think someone was asking about the fireman's side of an F3. There's > one on eBay at > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ > eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29489&item=2259369298&rd=1#ebayphotohost > ing > > Greg > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-talk LIST From: David Wartell Subject: Re: [PRR] F3 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:59:21 -0400 To: "Gregg Mahlkov" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gregg, The model looks really good. How does it run? Dave Wartell djwartel@comcast.net On Jul 29, 2004, at 9:30 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Greg, > > Hmmm, that photo is already on the web in the PRR roster available at > northeast.railfan.net, so have got to wonder if that's a copy. I was > the one > looking, but it was for a PRR F1 Mogul. I was able to copy the tiny F1 > firman's side photo at that website and play with it to get it lasrge > enough > to work with. I was, after all, building a N scale version! see > http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/afi.sized.jpg for a > photo of > the completed model. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Ritacco" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:37 PM > Subject: [PRR] F3 > > >> Hi, >> I think someone was asking about the fireman's side of an F3. There's >> one on eBay at >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ >> eBayISAPI.dll? >> ViewItem&category=29489&item=2259369298&rd=1#ebayphotohost >> ing >> >> Greg >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:16:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] E8 locos in Ohio X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bennet Levin's E8 locomotives arrived this evening at Dennison, Ohio with a few private varnish cars plus his own Warrior Ridge and #120 Observation bringing up the rear. Also seen at the Steamfest in Dennison was Ross Roland and Rich Melvin. Great train ride on the Pandhandle line both eastbound and westbound. Dennis Sautters Canton, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of F22s with 16"/50 Iowa class gun From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: F22 w/ Naval Gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:31:12 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jul 1, 2004, at 5:39 AM, Brian Butcher wrote: > I would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the F22 =20= > 975532 and 435308. I would surmise=A0these two are semi-permanently =20= > coupled...1) I can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end =20= > of these two cars and 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard =20= > feature of the F22), and 3)...the=A0seemingly identical=A0repaint / = shop =20 > date=A0and place of the two cars. Nope, conventional couplers, looks like carmer cut levers and yes, =20 safety chains were a standard feature of many cars in service prior to =20= WWII. The 1919 CBC photo of the F23 at =20 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?=20 photo=3DPRR_434445_F23_endview.jpg shows them clearly. In addition, a =20= higher quality image of the F22s than the one at =20 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?=20 photo=3DPRR_435317_925527_F22_E12573_090440.jpg clearly shows the = chains, =20 carmer levers and couplers. Bill Lane supplied a date of 1-2-41 for the photo. My SWAG is that =20 these cars were recalled from general service as it became clear that =20= new battleship and big gun construction was a priority. They were =20 "renovated" with cradles and repainted circa September 1940 and this =20 was documented by the PRR in "builder's photos" such as the F22s above. =20= The date does call into question the model of the gun, as no Iowas =20 would have been gunned at that time. The gun may still be a 16"/50 or =20= it may be a 16"/45, or a shore battery gun , since Bill Lane indicated =20= to me off line that the description of the photo is "Army and Navy guns =20= on F22". > Also....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the car) =20= > is a conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH =20= > side of the car) seems to have been modified with a=A0low-profile =20 > horizontal type. Unlikely. More likely is that the brake staff has been removed and =20 fastened to the deck to keep it from being knocked over by the barrel. =20= This indicates to me that the F22 did not have a brake staff that could =20= be dropped. > =A0 > Interestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where they =20= > meet the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the =20= > spot... Or its just been parked there a while . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-1-859806429 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 1, 2004, at 5:39 AM, Brian Butcher wrote: VerdanaI would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the F22 975532 and 435308. I would surmise=A0these two are semi-permanently coupled...1) I can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end of these two cars and 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard feature of the F22), and 3)...the=A0seemingly identical=A0repaint / shop date=A0and = place of the two cars. Nope, conventional couplers, looks like carmer cut levers and yes, safety chains were a standard feature of many cars in service prior to WWII. The 1919 CBC photo of the F23 at = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_434445_F23_e= ndview.jpg shows them clearly. In addition, a higher quality image of the F22s than the one at = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_435317_92552= 7_F22_E12573_090440.jpg clearly shows the chains, carmer levers and couplers. Bill Lane supplied a date of 1-2-41 for the photo. My SWAG is that these cars were recalled from general service as it became clear that new battleship and big gun construction was a priority. They were "renovated" with cradles and repainted circa September 1940 and this was documented by the PRR in "builder's photos" such as the F22s above. The date does call into question the model of the gun, as no Iowas would have been gunned at that time. The gun may still be a 16"/50 or it may be a 16"/45, or a shore battery gun , since Bill Lane indicated to me off line that the description of the photo is "Army and Navy guns on F22". VerdanaAlso....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the car) is a conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH side of the car) seems to have been modified with a=A0low-profile horizontal type. Unlikely. More likely is that the brake staff has been removed and fastened to the deck to keep it from being knocked over by the barrel.=20= This indicates to me that the F22 did not have a brake staff that could be dropped. = Verdana=A0 VerdanaInterestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where they meet the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the = spot... Or its just been parked there a while <. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-1-859806429-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] F22 w/Naval Gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:06:35 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:01 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > =A0 What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the cars=20= > insuring safe transport of the barrels.=A0 Have seen this on passenger=20= > equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight=20 > equipment.=A0 Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads=20= > transversing several cars? Yes, It was common on freight equipment (gons and flats) for many years=20= prior to WWII. Westerfield has appropriate instructions in many kits=20 regarding the period of use of these chains. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-5-869129867 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:01 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: Arial=A0 What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the cars insuring safe transport of the barrels.=A0 Have seen this on passenger equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment.=A0 Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing several = cars? Yes, It was common on freight equipment (gons and flats) for many years prior to WWII. Westerfield has appropriate instructions in many kits regarding the period of use of these chains. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-5-869129867-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - MP54 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:23:34 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, I've overcome this problem before by using some simple=20 math. Print out a copy of the plan at any size you like.=20 Then, using a scalerule or a ruler take a even=20 measurement, such as 7'-0" and see how many inches it=20 equals. Then, use the ratio of x/100%=3Dy/z. Where x is the=20 measured distance and y is the real-time equivilent of the=20 length in HO, such as roughly, 8 feet in HO is 1 inch. z=20 is the percentage of enl;argement the drawing should then=20 be printed at.=20 I've been doing this on a passenger car window-band=20 project for someone and it's worked great. I can now lay=20 the plan on a Walthers car and it will be "to scale". Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. beth capl caples wrote: Does anyone know the size of the porthole windows on the=20 end of the cars? Does anyone know the length,width, and height of the=20 headlight mounted on top of the roof? (I checked Rob's website of MP54=20 drawings and all it lists is the height) Thanks very much, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:03:16 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Special Greetings to Bob, Jerry and the List: November 24, 1912 Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ============================ Bob Zoeller wrote: > When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway Limited? > > Bob Zoeller --------------040303070900000307010708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to Bob, Jerry and the List:

November 24, 1912

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
============================
Bob Zoeller wrote:

When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway Limited?

Bob Zoeller

--------------040303070900000307010708-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:46 -0400 Evan and list, Virtually all road haul traffic interchanged between the PRR and RDG was = interchanged at either Harrisburg or Philadelphia (Belmont). The only = traffic interchanged at other points would be very, very local, i. e. in = the switching limits or only a couple of stations down the line. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy = and the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa. Do not believe there was that = much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and = Harrisburg. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C4608D.B7A2EDE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Evan and list,

Virtually all road haul traffic interchanged between the PRR and = RDG was=20 interchanged at either Harrisburg or Philadelphia (Belmont). The only = traffic=20 interchanged at other points would be very, very local, i. e. = in the=20 switching limits or only a couple of stations down the line.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 = 11:08=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, = Pa.

I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the = Pennsy and=20 the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa.   Do not believe there was = that=20 much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia = and=20 Harrisburg.

Thank you,

Evan = Leisey
RCT&HS=20 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ=20 2003
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C4608D.B7A2EDE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:13:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Eric and list, The actual prototype dimension you mention would have to be altered on a model to permit it to negotiate the sharper curves found on model railroads. So, the drawing probably reflects the model as built and not the real thing. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 > Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. > Thanks, > Eric > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Smoke, pt. 2 From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > On a real loco, steam or diesel, any smoke would indicate fuel being > wasted. How Much? Small amounts of fuel can create large amounts of smoke. > I do know the N&W (PRR owned some stock in) could be picky > about that; evidence can be seen in letters between W. Link and the > officials of the N&W. ...and invisible outputs can indicate fuel wastage as well. Much of this was PR concern. It was an easy target for action, whether _effective_ is another matter. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of early GG-1s in Freight service Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:42:02 -0500 To: Ian Macoy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ian, Through WWII, the GG1s were definitely used predominantly in passenger service. However, there are occasional photos of them pulling freight. Obviously, the freight motor of choice for that period is the P5A boxcab and modified. Note that several modifieds maintained their boilers through WWII and were used on passenger trains. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Jul 6, 2004, at 11:03 AM, Ian Macoy wrote: > Does anyone know whether early GG-1s (e.g., 1930s-1941, futura > lettered) > were ever used to haul manifest or other freight, or were they strictly > limited to passenger service during that time? > > Thanx. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > > I'd rather see a 4th option. If BLI is determined to release the locos > with smoke, they need to offer the locos without the smoke system as > well. Yes, it is easy for the consumer to snip the wires or turn the > smoke option off but if it is never planned on being used, why pay for > its installation. The realities of quantity production mean that building/stocking/shipping/sparing two versions will raise the costs and prices for both. (I have no opinion re desirability of smoke units, as such...) best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: The PRRT&HS Modeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:21:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5A6EB43BF868D5118B51000347713BC70937920A@TTMSX1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Fellow modelers: I really appreciate Elden's kind comments about my efforts in this area. However, this a terrific team that we have assembled and kudos have to go to the many that have made it all possible. TKM would have gone nowhere without the enthusiasm and contributions of many people. These folks not only contributed, they set a standard for excellence in modeling that will be difficult to surpass in any scale and for any railroad. Special thanx go to Committee Members Elden Gatwood, Jack Consoli, Greg Martin, Bruce Smith, Gary Mittner, Jim Hunter and Ben Hom for their articles and continuing participation. Also special thanx goes to contributors, John Teichmoeller (Covered Hoppers), Tom Hayden (Class T1), Nick Nagrant (MTH PRR Work Equipment), Lin Bongaardt (Train Signals), Garrett Rea (Steel Slab Load), Bob Johnson (H30-H30a), Gene Deimling (O-scale X29), Bill Lane (S-scale GR), Bill Kepner (N-scale G41a), Norm Bell (Backdating a GG1), Brian Carlson (Athearn Genesis EMD F-3), Bill Neale (Steubenville Freight House) and newly appointed Committee member Gary Leanz (BLI J1 DCC). Thanx also to all that have written us offering comments and corrections as well as thanks for and encouragement in our endeavors. I would also like to recognize Bob Hundman and his Mainline Modeler magazine for their continuing support of our efforts. Bob is a fine person that is truly dedicated to the furtherance of providing information to all in the hobby. The Society and Bob have formed a very mutually supporting relationship that I hope lasts for a long time. If I have overlooked anyone that has made a contribution to the success of this effort please accept my apologies, it is an oversight on my part and was unintentional. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:35:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It's probably a market demand thing. Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Vastano" To: "PRR-TALK" ; Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] PRR K4 STREAMLINED > Group, > > Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there. Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet? (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but to me that seems like it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go over a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. > > Sam V > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9MtolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:56:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Signal Design Help X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [151.203.81.5] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:55:35 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I shoud add that the C/MRI system was very well described in a series of articles in Model Railroader Magazine, January - April, 2004. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:40:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - STREAMLINED K4 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B Modeling Question Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE , PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:18:36 -0400 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 12, 2004, at 7:42 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > I heard this too from Trains.com. Hence, it looks that Intermountain > will be joining Roco in a rush to a re-tooled FP-7! Where Roco (and related) typically do one road number, InterMountain consistently does at least four road numbers, with matching B units. And for N scalers, trains.com reports F3's with sound, though no Pennsy units (due to small numberboards) yet. I doubt they will do F3's due to that, but I'm confident Pennsy will be included when they eventually do the F7's and FP7's. InterMountain is on a roll these days, typically with a dozen new releases each month! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:57:42 -0500 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 13, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > I wonder if these ATSF cars were on PRR livestock trains: FW-8 and > NF-6. I also wonder about the typical compositon of these trains too. > In particular, what other road names were found in the consists. Photographic evidence on the PRR indicates at least the top 3 or 4 owners of cars were represented. I have seen photos of AT&SF, UP, Burlington and Milwaukee at one time or another. Of course, the mix of these is the tough question to answer, and that likely changed significantly with era, or even time of year. Finally, at least for some of us, we can't forget the "TRS" trains headed west with empties (Tank, Reefer, Stock), which again may have a disproportionate load of "foreign" cars compared to the east bound if loads went via ERIE, but empties went via PRR (as was the case for some PFE reefers). I plan on a mix of 50% PRR and 50% foreign with the foreign cars being biased to roads around Chicago and St. Louis, but containing cars from the top national owners. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Livestock traffic on PRR Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:08:52 -0500 To: robert netzlof X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 13, 2004, at 11:53 AM, robert netzlof wrote: > My guess would be that the bulk of that traffic would have been > destined for New York City, rather than Boston, Philadelphia, or > Baltimore. How much of it would have been on PRR I have no idea. It > could be that NYC had some advantage in access to the city proper > which might have steered (no pun intended) much of the business their > way. On the other hand, if the kosher slaughterhouses were in New > Jersey, PRR would have as good a shot as any. In fact, there were huge "stockyard" barges, owned by the PRR (IIRC) that took cattle from New Jersey to New York, so PRR definitely had access to New York markets. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:52:10 -0400 Not yet, but is probably going to have to happen as the journals wear = out. =20 Beware the ECW and the Walthers are not the same 2D-P5. The Walthers = has solid bearings and was found only on the R50s in later years. In the = 20's some early P70s had them, and I suspect some B60s may have also; = although I have no proof. =20 regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Varieties Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:09 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Walthers keeps telling me that their 2D-P5 trucks will be issued as = separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any listmember tried using the = Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the Eastern Car Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling qualities? =20 Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C46912.E2E73EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
Not=20 yet, but is probably going to have to happen as the journals wear=20 out.

Beware=20 the ECW and the Walthers are not the same 2D-P5. The Walthers has = solid=20 bearings and was found only on the R50s in later years. In the = 20's some=20 early P70s had them, and I suspect some B60s may have also; although I = have no=20 proof.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park=20 Varieties
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:09 PM
To: = PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck=20 Modifications

Walthers keeps telling me that their = 2D-P5 trucks=20 will be issued as separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has = any=20 listmember tried using the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the = Eastern=20 Car Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling = qualities?

Frank = Brua
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C46912.E2E73EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:40:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: More on Intermountain's F3 N Scale From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 02:30 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > We all make our choices and I for one would find it much easier to > correct the numberboards than to suffer with the stripes that are too > thick as offered by Microscale, again you must weigh the options of > paint and decaling vs. detail and touch up. Good point on the decals. Plus, buying PRR units gives you something to run until you get around to fixing the number boards (or not). > > Intermountain is certainly willing to listen and go forward with my > recommendations and using "OUR" formula for colors of the basic > DGLP/DGLE and Buff to PRR lettering diagrams. I like Marty's attitude > about the hobby and his forward thinking. I'm glad they are being receptive to you, your offers, and COLOR!!! I was one of the ones who really pushed for correct number boards. I gave up long ago. I would fully support your recommendation to IM to do them with the incorrect boards. Now, can I make a recommendation on your recommendation? IM normally does four road numbers for loco releases. The F3 is a Phase II and is modular, in terms of dynamic brakes and fans. Would you please ask them to consider doing two numbers with the high fans (Phase II Early) and two with the low fans (Phase II Late)? Maybe I can't have correct number boards, but this request is doable, since the interchangeability is already in the design. Unlike some roads, Pennsy had both versions! I had emailed Marty on this and haven't heard back yet, but he's probably a bit busy having just returned from the show. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Food for thought: new steam models Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:00:39 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 Build Dates etc. Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to all: The builder's number and builder's dates for all 139 GG1s are contained in Bill Edson's reference book "Keystone Steam and Electric," which should be at most railroad museum libraries. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Macoy wrote: >Does anyone have or know a source for build dates and builder numbers (not >the loco #) for the GG-1, particularly the early series? This is the kind >of info typically found on the builders plate for a particular loco. > >Any help greatly appreciated. > >Ian >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] renumbering of E-units Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:00:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, Those numbers are given in the rosters in Wither's book "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial -Volume 7 - EMD E Units and ALCo PAs". Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Ripley To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:03 PM Subject: [PRR] renumbering of E-units > Hello all, > > Does anyone happen to have a before-and-after list of E-units, when they > were renumbered from the 5700-5800's to the 4200-4300's in 1966? > I model this transitional period, and plan to paint a couple of renumbered > E-8's, and would naturally like to avoid using a number that was applied > to a unit still in its original no. that I already have (if that makes > sense!). > > Thanks for any info, > > Fred R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] water pans Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:19:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com George: Danny Seymour has modeled track troughs on his Shark River and Western. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4374/tour.html This is on Jerry's web site. I didn't see a shot of these in his photos, but perhaps if you contact him he may email you some. At any rate, he has (had, it's been moved and currently in the process of rebuilding), a beautiful layout and is well worth the time to check out. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rudy" To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: [PRR] water pans > One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for > tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone > point me to some pictures? > Thanks, > George > New Bloomfield, Pa. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR TALK" From: Listmaster Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTING PRR FOR SALE STUFF Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:43:24 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Jul 18, 2004, at 6:54 PM, Richard Poole wrote: > LIST, > > I think there is some restriction on listing PRR memorabilia FOR > SALE on the PRR TALK list but I'm not sure what it is. Can anyone > help? As noted on the list's home page (URL is in the footer of every post), FOR SALE ads are allowed on the 1st and 15th of each month. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] BAR Geeps Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:30:08 +0000 >From: RickTipton@aol.com >Subject: [PRR] BAR Geeps >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT > > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > > From: "Al Buchan" > > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:58:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com George, it is not that hard to build track work.. The biggest challenge with your crossover is the code 55 rail as it is easily kinked in the vertical plane if a spike is driven too far in. Another method of mounting the code 55 rail is to coat the bottom with hot glue then let it cool, pin it in place then run a soldering iron along the top of the rail to remelt the glue fixing the rail to the ties. Another suggestion, buy an Atlas or Walthers code 83 crossover then adapt the code 55 to the code 83 on the desired route. The crossover rails of the narrow gauge route could be shortened to lessen the amount of code 83 showing. My favorite method of adapting one height of rail to another is to take a cutoff disk across the middle, top of a rail joiner of the larger code rail then flatten the tops on one half of the joiner. Next shim or file the flattened side so that the smaller rail fits on top of it with the railhead flush with that of the larger rail. Then solder the entire thing together. Will the narrow gauge line be functional or just for show? BTW, it wasn't uncommon for crossovers to be made of one weight of rail with the cross line adapting its rail to the larger rail to make the crossing then returning to the lighter rail. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:49:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 12:44 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Saw on the Mercandise Service page that they are sold out so I went to > Walthers and they had this description. This car was more versatile > than I thought! > (Ad shows a B60b) > Pennsylvania Railroad > Walthers Part # 85-5000 > HO scale, $59.95, not currently in stock at Walthers, Expected: TBA > > n partnership with Centralia Car Shops, these new passenger cars are > ready-to-run versions of the Pennsylvania Railroads P85bR 44-seat > coaches. These detailed cars feature diecast metal trucks with 46 > metal wheels, complete underbody detail, individual wire handrails, > aluminum window trim and Kadee couplers. What a mess! Part number and photo of a B60b. Description of a P85b. And "46 metal wheels"? Hmmm, that's challenging the wheel count on a BP60 "Centipede" set!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:41:57 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, As an employee of the Traffic Department of the Pennsylvania Railroad from 1962 to beyond the merger, I can confirm that the absolute last CT1000 was the 1945 edition - that's the only one we had. Industry lists were maintained in the Lines East and Lines West Switching Tariffs, which may have been in the 400-series. But, these were documents containing charges as well as names and were filed with the ICC. There were also issues for major terminals and joint issues for multiple railroad cities. The the 1960's PRR did not have the clerical staff, nor the willingness on the part of the sales staff, to even keep the Switching Tariffs current. I recall the DSM berating one of the sales reps in Cleveland about a parking lot in town that was shown as a fuel depot! There were many instances of this. I'd say several dozen in Cleveland alone. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings > Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of > the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. > > I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- > a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall > exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with > "List of Reportable Locations". > > Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? > > In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a > few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other > businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they > utilized rail service or not. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:21:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, Back in the mid-1960's, the PRR and all the other Class I's were working with the AAR to eastblish uniform waybilling and car movement systems so that information could be exchanged electronically. Out of this came the "nine-alpha nightmare", where all locations had to consist of nine letters or less. "Pittsburgh" lost its "h", but others were more troublesome. "New York" became "NEWYORK", "Philadelphia" became "PHILADELP", but was "North Philadelphia" "NORPHILAD" or "NPHILADEL"? There were agreements that "North", "South", etc., would be "N", "S", etc. But, Should it be "MOU" or MT for "Mount". How about where I live, Port Saint Joe, FL? The AN used to bill it "Port St Joe", but for a while, the Nine-alpha rules made it "PTSTJOE", and then it became "PORSAIJOE". So, I suspect you are correct, it was never adopted except possibly for internal use. BTW, there was another document AD72, "List of Accounting Department Numbers of Stations" aorund in the 1960's, too. But, like the CT4001, no industries were shown. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts > I have two of the useless things. Thinking on it, both are pristine > with the employee's "I swear I got this and will do what it says" > certificate still intact. Further, others that I've seen on eBay look > equally spiffy (L@@K Vintage R@RE etc). I've never seen one which > looked used. > > It occurs to me that maybe they were printed "...for use in CAR > MOVEMENT REPORTING SYSTEM", but that the system never went live and > so the booiks were never handed out. I do know that in the early to > mid 1960's PRR and AAR (and others, I suppose) were hot on improving > car utilization and IBM was in there pitching the magical powers of > the New All New Better-Than-Anything-Before System/360 which was > going to do anything and everything everybody wanted to do but didn't > know how... > > I do recall having converstion with a programmer on the AAR's system, > who recounted some diffficulties in areas where the system logic had > been less than adequately analysed, and I never heard much of it > after that. Perhaps the CT4001 is a leftover from something that was > planned but never really happened? Could be too that PRR just plain > ran out of money to buy/rent/lease big processors for the proposed system? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:57:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: Frederick Ripley From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:08:57 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary, A quick look in Randall's Pullman-Standard Library Vol. 4 lists the = following lightweight Falls cars: 8402 Balsam Falls 8403 Beech Falls 7159 Birch Falls 8129 Birch Falls (yes, two Birch Falls) 8138 Butternut Falls 7160 Butternut Falls (yes, two Butternut Falls as well) Lots of other Falls, but that's all the B's. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Mittner=20 To: Frederick Ripley=20 Cc: WAMMP236@aol.com ; John = Frantz ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series List, Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Branchline Pullmans Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:18:23 -0400 To: "Stephen Hoxie" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Better yet, the 1954 passenger car roster, with some assignments noted, at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Stephen Hoxie wrote: > Rich wrote: >> >> The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, > and 36. >> > Chris--There is more. Go to Jerry's Keystone Crossings. Lots of info > in Passenger Ops, 24 Hours at Harrisburg in Sep 1954. Try > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.html > Look for 574 and 575 in the Second and Third Tricks. Two 8-1-2 (or > 8-2-1)Pullmans from train 1 from New York to train 575 to Erie and > Buffalo. Going the other way, they get added to train 20. If you look > at train 1 at 10:12 pm (Second Trick), it shows the names of the cars, > which unfortunately are not the names offered on the Branchline cars. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Terraserver From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:32:34 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com That car had slab sides - not corrugated sides. And it was painted in solid post-war Tuscan with a black roof and underbody, and the obligatory gold striping and lettering. The Rivarossi Budd 10-6 sleeper is modeled after a Union Pacific prototype, although it's far from accurate. CBaker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:05 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Hello All, Thanks again to all who contributed info to my question about PRR lounge cars. Now I have a question about a sleeper, the 10-6 Budd-built "Scioto Rapids". I have the Rivarossi model of this car which is painted in a "Congressional"-like, mostly stainless-steel scheme. I assume this is incorrect- other than the various through cars (AT&SF, Cal. Zephyr, MP, etc.) or the rebuilt "Elberton", I have never seen photos of PRR postwar sleepers in colors other than tuscan. Anyone know for sure how "Scioto Rapids" was painted? Thanks, Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Q-2 Sound cards Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:28:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group: Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings has a listing of Soundtraxx cards for various PRR locos. Not listed was the Q-2. Any suggestions for the Q-2?? Any other sound systems available for the Q-2? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:18:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 12:02 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > As you can tell, I have been taking advantage of my lighter summer > teaching > load to work on my passenger car fleet. So now I have a question about > P70's: I would like to model a couple that would have been used on > secondary trains in the 1960's (to/from Chicago, potentially the > "Admiral", > "Penn. Ltd.", "Manhattan Ltd.", and definitely the "Ft. Pitt.", as > well as > rider coaches on mail trains 45 and 52). > > Is the class above (P70fR) the appropriate one for long-distance > service? > If so, what is available in HO that represents this car pretty > accurately? The 1964 Consists book is available on my Keystone Crossings site as a PDF download. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ As for the trains you mentioned, they had the following coaches: Admiral: P70GS, P85B, rider coach/cabin (pitt-NY only) Penn Ltd: P85B, rider coach (P70GS) Man Ltd.: P85B, rider coach (P70FB phil-NY only) 45, 52: unspecified rider cars ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Colors - Lunar White vs. Yellow From: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > I have, for a long time, gone by the term "lunar white" for the color > of lamp used in the Pennsy's three lamp position signals. I wouldn't. (....and the color is the color of the glass, rather thanof the lamp, per se....) > Is lunar white a correct term for the color? I would not use it. (Tho i once wondered the same thing...) Roughly, in signaling there are two 'yellows' and 'lunar white'. (Historically the RRs/signal designers put a LOT of work into coming up with unique, scientifically verifable, defined, 'shades'. 'Signal yellow' is close to 'traffic light yellow. (Tho i believe, in fact, the RR shade came first......anyway...)) RR Yellow: Like a traffic ight. PRR Position Light 'Yellow': was called, by them, 'fog penetrating yellow'. To my eye it is/was paler. More light from the same power, better penetration of fog/smoke. (Like the 'yellow fog lights which used to be on some cars....) tho less distinct, color wise, from a 'white' non signal light. 'lunar white': a 'white-white'. Derives its name from the (non) colour of the moon when 'high'. Used when 'another color' was needed, typically for low speed work. (Used in PRR Pos. light dwarves....) The 'lens' (filter) as originally used has a distinct 'blue' cast: it was derived to make a 'white white' from a 'yellow' oil flame. >Were there lunar white and yellow aspects used on the > Pennsy during the same era? Which era, where on the Pennsy? 8)>> (It was a big RR, Originally Semaphore signalled.) > On the Reading, we had lunar white aspects below the signal that > were used to allow tonnage trains to pass a stop aspect at a > speed allowing the train to stop short of any stopped train, > broken rail, thrown turnout, etc. ... Many roads had/have a similar indication, with an aspect of yellow _plate_, with black 'G' (for grade...) under an existing signal. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Car Roofs Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:10:05 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <20209D7F-E09C-11D8-AD9F-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-index: AcR0q2cH0DK5UwFxQQqMKy7h44T43QAB/rxQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, I had always used "balloon", "arch", and "round" roof interchangeably. I am referring to round end versions. The square end version I always refer to as a "streamlined" roof. I know this hardly makes it official, but no one else has responded, so I thought you might want my fiftieth of a dollar. Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:44 AM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Roofs Let's split hairs here on the subject of passenger car roofs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's assume all cars built 1938 and following had "streamline" roofs. And I think we all understand the early "clerestory" roofs. But let's talk about "balloon" vs. "arch" vs. "round" roofs. Are they synonymous? If not, how would you characterize each? I think of the B60b as having a "balloon" roof. I think it's taller than some other round (generically used here) roofs. Is the "arch" roof synonymous with a"round" roof, except that it has squared ends? (Examples: P70GS or P70K.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:00:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cars of interest MOW style From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Brian Says: > In the top photo on page 355 two XL Camp Cars are visible behind the FP7. > The third car visible appears to be a X25, X28 or X29. What caught my > attention is the CRECo door mounted directly adjacent to the end ladder > which opened to the left. It also appears the original door opening was > plated over. These changes obviously occurred when the car was modified > for MOW service. Does anyone know why this car was converted or have a better > picture of it. I assume this is more than just a standard tool or material > car. I agree that it looks like a steel car (X25 or X29). I think it is too short to be an X28. Note too the portholes. Based on the layout of the door and windows, and the fact that the next car appears to be a tool car, I'll make a SWAG that this is a cable car, and it is part of the Cresson Wreck train. My guess for the reason that it was used is that the orignal XL became unservicable for some reason and was replaced with this steel car. Likely one of a kind or nearly so... Mind you this is all speculation and without solid reference! Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn AL. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <7FCB4E9F-CB4A-11D8-A9CA-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE - 1954 CD On Sale At 20% Off Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:36:23 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: 1st of the month FOR SALE post... The Merchandise Service "Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD is on sale, through July 10th, at 20% off. This brings the $80 price down to $64. The disk contains 60 PDF files -- thousands of pages -- of official PRR documentation from 1954, including public timetables, employee timetables for all 19 divisions, book of rules, passenger equipment roster, Official Railway Equipment Register, all 11 issues of "The Pennsy", arranged freight schedules, the booklet announcing TrucTrain service, the annual report, and more. Proceeds will fund upgrade of the listserv for the DSOP.COM lists (PRR-talk, Conrail-talk, Reading-talk, etc.). The upgrade, among other features, is supposed to strip distracting HTML/MIME content from digests. This upgrade is slated for late July. See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_sale.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] Re: F22 w/ Naval Gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:39:54 -0400 <<<< I have posted the two photographs of the F22 flats with a large naval=20 gun load to my web site. The images are at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg >>>>> I would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the F22 = 975532 and 435308. I would surmise these two are semi-permanently = coupled...1) I can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end of = these two cars and 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard = feature of the F22), and 3)...the seemingly identical repaint / shop = date and place of the two cars. Also....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the car) is = a conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH side = of the car) seems to have been modified with a low-profile horizontal = type. Interestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where they = meet the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the = spot... Regards; Brian ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C45F36.37C470B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

<<<<
I have posted the two photographs of the F22 = flats with=20 a large naval
gun load to my web site. The images are = at:

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg=
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg=

>>>>>

I would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the = F22 975532=20 and 435308. I would surmise these two are semi-permanently = coupled...1) I=20 can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end of these two cars = and=20 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard feature of the F22), and=20 3)...the seemingly identical repaint / shop date and = place of the=20 two cars.

Also....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the = car) is a=20 conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH side of = the car)=20 seems to have been modified with a low-profile horizontal = type.

Interestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where = they meet=20 the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the = spot...

Regards;

Brian
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C45F36.37C470B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] Re: F22 w/ Naval Gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:39:54 -0400 <<<< I have posted the two photographs of the F22 flats with a large naval=20 gun load to my web site. The images are at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg >>>>> I would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the F22 = 975532 and 435308. I would surmise these two are semi-permanently = coupled...1) I can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end of = these two cars and 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard = feature of the F22), and 3)...the seemingly identical repaint / shop = date and place of the two cars. Also....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the car) is = a conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH side = of the car) seems to have been modified with a low-profile horizontal = type. Interestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where they = meet the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the = spot... Regards; Brian ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C45F36.37C470B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

<<<<
I have posted the two photographs of the F22 = flats with=20 a large naval
gun load to my web site. The images are = at:

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg=
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg=

>>>>>

I would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the = F22 975532=20 and 435308. I would surmise these two are semi-permanently = coupled...1) I=20 can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end of these two cars = and=20 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard feature of the F22), and=20 3)...the seemingly identical repaint / shop date and = place of the=20 two cars.

Also....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the = car) is a=20 conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH side of = the car)=20 seems to have been modified with a low-profile horizontal = type.

Interestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where = they meet=20 the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the = spot...

Regards;

Brian
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C45F36.37C470B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:24:40 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] Pass-through USRA engines and PRR's "internal From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of STEPHEN Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass-through USRA engines and PRR's "internal From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] Pass-through USRA engines and PRR's "internal From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass-through face=Arial>From:Subject: Subject: [PRR] Ground pipe and Photo of F22s with 16"/50 Iowa class gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:01:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <92DCA211-CADB-11D8-9823-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: While the F22 application is in itself interesting, I was curious about the pipe on the ground in the first picture. I think it is carrying signal lines. Anyone know? And what is that interesting 2-bar fixture in the middle, anchored to a concrete pad? Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:22 PM To: PRR-Talk TALK' Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Photo of F22s with 16"/50 Iowa class gun Folks, I have posted the two photographs of the F22 flats with a large naval gun load to my web site. The images are at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg The location is Orangeville Yard, Baltimore, the train is northbound, and these are almost certainly 16"/50 guns from the Washington Navy Yard (Gun Factory) destined for an Iowa class battleship under construction at Philadelphia Navy Yard or New York Navy Yard. Oh yeah, note the use of safety chains between cars! Happy Viewing! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Ground pipe and Photo of F22s Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:42:31 -0500 To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 1, 2004, at 8:01 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > While the F22 application is in itself interesting, I was curious > about the > pipe on the ground in the first picture. I think it is carrying signal > lines. Anyone know? And what is that interesting 2-bar fixture in the > middle, anchored to a concrete pad? > > Regards, > Andy Miller The interlocking appears to be of the electro-pneumatic type. The pipe supplies the air pressure to actuate the switch machines. As for the fixture - it looks as though it is designed to control creep or perhaps shocks from sudden pressure changes? Really, I was wondering too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:01:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] F22 w/Naval Gun What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the cars insuring safe transport of the barrels. Have seen this on passenger equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment. Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing several cars? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088690486 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the car= s insuring safe transport of the barrels. Have seen this on passenger=20= equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment. = ; Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing sever= al cars?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088690486-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:01:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] F22 w/Naval Gun What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the cars insuring safe transport of the barrels. Have seen this on passenger equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment. Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing several cars? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088690486 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the car= s insuring safe transport of the barrels. Have seen this on passenger=20= equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment. = ; Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing sever= al cars?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088690486-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Enola Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] It's Harry Weiskittel, not Perry, OR Google is our friend Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:18:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <08CB84C2-CB8B-11D8-861E-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On the CNN web site, right now! http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/01/horseshoe.curve.ap/ index.html I'm hoping CNN covers the July 4th event with video... I'll be in South Carolina! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:38:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 7/1/04 1:30:06 PM, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << On the CNN web site, right now! http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/01/horseshoe.curve.ap/ index.html I'm hoping CNN covers the July 4th event with video... I'll be in South Carolina! >> **************** There was also a piece somewhere the other day that VP Cheney intends to be at the 7/4 Altoona Curves baseball game and may be at the curve, itself, for the picture taking. As I read the item, I thought of some messages here about the limitations on viewing locations. If the VP shows up, there will be even more limitations and traffic jams, etc. Regards, Marty Happy Birthday America!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:45:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 03:38 PM, LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > As I read the item, I thought of some messages here about the > limitations on > viewing locations. If the VP shows up, there will be even more > limitations and > traffic jams, etc. Have no fear... Vice President Cheney will be at a secret, undisclosed location! (Isn't he always?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:05:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35BEA25@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2004 19:54:56.0369 (UTC) FILETIME=[487E3610:01C45FA5] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It is my understanding that when the event occurs the NS does not want ANYTHING in sight that isn't lettered NS. PRR is PERSONNA NON-GRATA for the event. How about THAT? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 2:18 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST; Conrail-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary On the CNN web site, right now! http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/07/01/horseshoe.curve.ap/ index.html I'm hoping CNN covers the July 4th event with video... I'll be in South Carolina! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:23:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Enser Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Subject: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:39:11 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I found out last weekend that the PRR E8s will not be part of the celebration. From what I was told, Norfolk Southern had nothing to with the E units not being there. Also, I rode the observation platform of car 120 around Horseshoe Curve and notice that the trees have been removed from the east side of the Curve. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:55:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - MP54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know the size of the porthole windows on the end of the cars? Does anyone know the length,width, and height of the headlight mounted on top of the roof? (I checked Rob's website of MP54 drawings and all it lists is the height) Thanks very much, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:55:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - MP54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know the size of the porthole windows on the end of the cars? Does anyone know the length,width, and height of the headlight mounted on top of the roof? (I checked Rob's website of MP54 drawings and all it lists is the height) Thanks very much, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:08:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: So this thread does not go down the "wrong" track, I can confirm the NS had nothing to do with the E-units not being on the 'curve on Sunday. They are currently in the shop being prepared for the four day excursion later this month to Dennison. As someone once said, "Tis better to light a candle, than curse the darkness". Bennett ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: "'Jerry Britton'" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:39 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary > > I found out last weekend that the PRR E8s will not be part of the > celebration. From what I was told, Norfolk Southern had nothing to with > the E units not being there. > Also, I rode the observation platform of car 120 around Horseshoe > Curve and notice that the trees have been removed from the east side of > the Curve. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:13:22 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Someone posted that NS is going to make sure everything is NS... I did read that NS specially painted a car with the logos of all of the railroads that have "owned" the Horseshoe Curve. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:20:57 -0400 From: Rob McKeever Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary X-AOL-IP: 4.10.29.174 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The RRMM ad in the July Railpace shows half that car, painted white with the NS and predecessor logos on the right half of the car. They are advertising it being offered in O by Weaver as a commemorative. Will be in Altoona this weekend visiting the in-laws, but am unsure whether I will get to the curve or not. If the festivities are on Sunday itself, that's a better chance, since Daytona is being run Saturday night, but this is our first family trip back since our daughter was born in May. We did take her on her first train ride at nine days old at the Manassas railfest last month... Rob McKeever Manassas VA robmckii@aol.com (long, long time subscriber that rarely posts) jerry@pennsyrr.com wrote: > Someone posted that NS is going to make sure everything is NS... > > I did read that NS specially painted a car with the logos of all of > the railroads that have "owned" the Horseshoe Curve. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "michael hmel" Subject: [PRR] NS Painting engine PRR Tuscan .... Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:39:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 8:4:940890947 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: jTmkjNShdRGYa700blOSW/reLluNZfiSYEw+5mLpWLjczF3N4+Z8vhskFkSjgiNv Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hey Will , The take overs been quite a long time ago and they still haven't painted much black ......let alone Tuscan . I see more non-NS power than I see of their own . Sure wouldn't want to see a Keystone anywhere near that dumb donkey , it would make me sick . By the way NS , if things were the way I wanted them to be ........the only NS thing on the curve would be a boxcar in a train pulled by a few DGLE loco's ! Member : TCA , PRRT&HS Lists : PRR Talk , PC Modeling , Conrail Talk Lionel Collectors , Toytraintrading E-Mail : michaelhmel@netzero.net E-bay : iron*mah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Enser" To: "'PRR-Talk LIST'" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:23 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary > > "IF" I was the head of NS, I would be doing a PRR paint scheme on > one of the newest locos in the fleet. Nice marooon with PENNSYLVANIA down > the side of it and a keystone/donkey combo logo on the nose. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Andrisd@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:02:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary If anyone wants to ask NS CEO here's your chance, From the EL email mail list----- Slightly off topic, though just a note of interest - Thursday you could see a matching passenger train sitting at the Binghamton DL&W station. Return of the EL? Nope. How about Norfolk Southern's executive train? It may not be the Lake Cities, but it is there and definetly caught my attention. Word has it that their CEO is in town. Also anyone close to Waverly should stop and see the NS exhibit car. It's there until Monday as part of the Village of Waverly's 150th Birthday. Check it out! Andy Cole -------------------------------1088758928 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
If anyone wants to ask NS CEO here's your chance,=20= >From the EL email mail list-----

Slightly off topic, though just a note of interest= - Thursday you could see a matching passenger train sitting at the Binghamt= on DL&W station. Return of the EL? Nope. How about Norfolk Souther= n's executive train? It may not be the Lake Cities, but it is there and defi= netly caught my attention. Word has it
that their CEO is in town.<= BR>
Also anyone close to Waverly should stop and see the NS exhibit car.=20= It's there until Monday as part of the Village of Waverly's 150th Birthday.=20= Check it out!

Andy Cole

-------------------------------1088758928-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:30:45 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroad marvel celebrates 150th anniversary Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: As of this morning there is nothing specific on the NS website ... but NS is a good corporate citizen and I think will do the celebration right. On the "History" page of the NS website, there is almost as much about the PRR as N&W and SRR --and remember NS didn't acquire the PRR, just Conrail! There is also a most elegant photo of PRR 1361 for your enjoyment and a link to the PRRT&HS. Jim McDaniel, Delmarva reporter ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:36:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] July InterMountain Releases From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <68CC09B4-CC4E-11D8-A69D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement: The July releases have been posted to the InterMountain web site. All are for delivery later this month. Included: HO scale B60b Express Messenger cars in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Four road numbers. This is a built-up Bethlehem Car Works project. N scale P85b coaches in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Six NEW road numbers. This is a built-up Centralia Car Shops project. See http://www.intermountain-railway.com/new.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:36:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] July InterMountain Releases From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <68CC09B4-CC4E-11D8-A69D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement: The July releases have been posted to the InterMountain web site. All are for delivery later this month. Included: HO scale B60b Express Messenger cars in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Four road numbers. This is a built-up Bethlehem Car Works project. N scale P85b coaches in the PENNSYLVANIA scheme. Six NEW road numbers. This is a built-up Centralia Car Shops project. See http://www.intermountain-railway.com/new.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] The Latest From Broadway Limited From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: No, it's not Pennsy... So why am I posting it here? Cause it may indicate what will be coming in Pennsy down the road! BLI's latest announcement is Southern Pacific "Cab Forwards". The noteworthy feature is that these locomotives will feature "fan driven smoke units". Hmmmm. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:49:34 -0400 BLI rumor
Listers,

I was at a hobby shop at lunch and the guy said that = BLI is going to announce that they will be producing locos with = synchronized black smoke. I guess if they produce K's, I's = or H's they'll have smoke.

Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C46065.517C4AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:36:12 -0500 BLI rumorNot a rumor. I believe they will start with smoke on a = forthcoming SP cab-forward. Didn't hear it was black, though. Isn't = it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without offending the smoke = abatement authorities ? :-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: PRR-talk=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 1:49 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor Listers,=20 I was at a hobby shop at lunch and the guy said that BLI is going to = announce that they will be producing locos with synchronized black = smoke. I guess if they produce K's, I's or H's they'll have smoke. Chris Chany=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0415_01C4605B.1148A340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" BLI rumor
Not a rumor. I believe they will = start with=20 smoke on a forthcoming SP cab-forward. Didn't hear it was = black,=20 though. Isn't it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without = offending=20 the smoke abatement authorities ? :-)

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher

To: PRR-talk

Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 = 1:49 PM

Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor

Listers,

I was at a hobby shop at lunch and the guy said that = BLI is=20 going to announce that they will be producing locos with synchronized = black=20 smoke. I guess if they produce K's, I's or H's they'll = have=20 smoke.

Chris Chany
------=_NextPart_000_0415_01C4605B.1148A340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:48:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE market. I thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the smoke feature first.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor, smoke Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:59:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jul 2004 23:09:57.0571 (UTC) FILETIME=[B15DB130:01C46089] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello Every Loyal PRR fan I don't know about "Y'all". But I am very glad to see smoke added. Just wish it had been added before to the M1, T1, etc. Having said that, I'm waiting for the H8/9/10's and E6. Or better yet, the H6 and E5. Those with sound and smoke. WOW! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 06/18/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:36:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Charyna Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor > From: Chany, Christopher > Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:25:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List, Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? I cannot see how a married man could possibly operate such a model in the same basement with his wife's laundry room! ;<) Gregg Mahlkov ----- ----- Alex Charyna wrote: Black smoke would be great... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:16:39 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I think smoke with a continuous stream would look best=20 coming from an ALCO diesel though. Nothin' but noise and=20 smoke. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:17:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Let's hope BLI does not perfect the smoke unit to the point of prototypical volumes. ;^} Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088821069 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Let's hope BLI does not perfect the smoke unit to the point o= f prototypical volumes. ;^}

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088821069-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Special Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:30:46 -0500 When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway = Limited? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
When did this train, started in 1902, = change its=20 name to Broadway Limited?

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Special Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:30:46 -0500 When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway = Limited? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
When did this train, started in 1902, = change its=20 name to Broadway Limited?

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C4607B.D6834EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:39:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > List, > > Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains > SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry > left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? > > I cannot see how a married man could possibly operate such a model in the > same basement with his wife's laundry room! ;<) Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, mooing stock cars? ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:57:45 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bruce hit my big concern here... >Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... > > What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on DCC???? We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:08:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy and the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa. Do not believe there was that much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and Harrisburg. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088824098 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy an= d the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa.   Do not believe there was tha= t much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and H= arrisburg.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088824098-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:08:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy and the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa. Do not believe there was that much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and Harrisburg. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088824098 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy an= d the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa.   Do not believe there was tha= t much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and H= arrisburg.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088824098-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:48:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2004 14:48:00.0305 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC7D5A10:01C4610C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Especially that black smoke y'all are talking about. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Sent: Friday, 02 July, 2004 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Gents, I think smoke with a continuous stream would look best coming from an ALCO diesel though. Nothin' but noise and smoke. -John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 06/18/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:50:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:50:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Life-Like C424 PRR #2415 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:21:07 -0400 Lists, Life-Like now has models of two PRR Alco Century series B-B Diesels in = the hobby shops. The model appears to be correct for the 2415, PRR's = only C424, when viewed in the photos in Pennsy Power II. But, the model = has the "batwing" headlight and number boards at the rear, while many = Centuries had the "notched" arrangem,ent at the rear, like the RS11's. = I can't tell which PRR 2415 had from the photos. Does anyone know which arrangement PRR 2415 actually had? I'm thinking = of buying one, even though it's out of my era, if the rear is correct. Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C46108.FB27AAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Lists,

Life-Like now has models of = two PRR Alco=20 Century series B-B Diesels in the hobby shops. The model appears to be = correct=20 for the 2415, PRR's only C424, when viewed in the photos in Pennsy Power = II.=20 But, the model has the "batwing" headlight and number boards at the = rear, while=20 many Centuries had the "notched" arrangem,ent at the rear, like the=20 RS11's. I can't tell which PRR 2415 had from the = photos.

Does anyone know which = arrangement PRR=20 2415 actually had? I'm thinking of buying one, even though it's = out of=20 my era, if the rear is correct.

Gregg=20 Mahlkov
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C46108.FB27AAD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:08:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 7/2/04 9:43:44 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes: << > List, > > Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains > SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry > left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? > > I cannot see how a married man could possibly operate such a model in the > same basement with his wife's laundry room! ;<) Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, mooing stock cars? ;^) >> ***************** When I worked for the Pennsy in labor relations, I was always amused by the locomotive engineers who had received formal discipline for "making excessive smoke." There was/is a book of work rules that contained a thou shall not with respect to smoke long after it was possible to make a lot of smoke. I have few recollections of steam locomotives but I do remember watching one go through a road crossing in downtown Hicksville, Long Island (1952?) making smoke and spewing what they call today, "particulate matter," almost cinder like chunks the size of a grain of rice. The particulate matter in black smoke for a model would have to fall somewhere. How they going to do this? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:45:06 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: That may explain the problem. The MTH did get this area of the model right, so I know the 3rd Rail did not do this as a compromise to get to negotiate a tight curve. Plus, 3rd Rail respond to my complaint by stating that their drawings show this gap. This reminds me of something similar. The first Bachmann N&W J was based on the GEM model. The GEM model was wrong in so many respects, it is not worth listing them, so when Bachmann made their J based on the GEM model, they just repeated the errors. Bachmann new J is a vast improvment, but they still got the nose wrong. I wish importers/ manufacturers would try to get blueprints from the railroad's repective historical societies rather than other sources. Eric -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Jul 3, 2004 2:13 PM To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net, PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 Eric and list, The actual prototype dimension you mention would have to be altered on a model to permit it to negotiate the sharper curves found on model railroads. So, the drawing probably reflects the model as built and not the real thing. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 > Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. > Thanks, > Eric > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:18:00 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI rumor From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:28:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jeff: We may want to consider insuring everyone brings his own respirator to our sessions. This could get ugly! Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: "PRR Talk List" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor > Bruce hit my big concern here... > > >Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... > > > > > What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on DCC???? > We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... > > Jeff Warner > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 14:05:55 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob Zoeller wrote: Didn't hear it was black, though. Isn't it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without offending the smoke abatement authorities ? :-) ****************** Gary Mittner wrote: Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE market. I thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the smoke feature first. ***************** Greg Mahlkov wrote: List, Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it contains SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? ***************** Bruce Smith wrote: Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, mooing stock cars? ;^) ***************** Jeff Warner wrote: What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on DCC???? We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... **************** I agree with all of the comments listed above. What will be the formulation of the stuff used to make the smoke? Will it leave an oily residue on the locomotive? (If so, might keep the side rods lubricated!!) What will be the effect on the finish of the locomotive? Will the formulation be plastic compatible and not damage the body of the locomotive? Will the locomotive have to go through the wash rack periodically? My first thought was of the old Lionel steamer with smoke I ran endlessly in circles while dropping pills down the stack to get smoke - probably 50 years ago - all the while putting stuff on the track to crash through, etc. In other words, my Toy Train phase of model railroading. Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to the New Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:14:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI rumor After considerable thought (you can all LOL), I feel we should forget smoke units. After all, we have to leave something to the imagination and no manufacturer will ever simulate a loco's exhaust as well as our imaginations will. How about wintertime with a passenger loco crossing Rockville Bridge leaving a long lingering, white plume of exhausted steam? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1088997255 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
After considerable thought (you can all LOL), I feel we should forget s= moke units.   After all, we have to leave something to the imagina= tion and no manufacturer will ever simulate a loco's exhaust as we= ll as our imaginations will. How about wintertime with a passenger loc= o crossing Rockville Bridge leaving a long lingering, white plume=20= of exhausted steam?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1088997255-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:49:49 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics Project From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:53:09 -0500 Listers: I have been sitting on the sidelines reading this thread. I share with = Don's view on if the smoke will create a residue on the engine or the = rest of the layout......including all of those engines and cars that we = have all tried so hard to make look just right. If residue is an issue.....then it is a deal breaker. Another item deals with the scale itself.....I doubt that you will be = able to achieve "scale smoke". From the amount of smoke, the color of = smoke and the aerodynamic characteristics of smoke, I doubt seriously if = BLI will even come close to the prototype.=20 BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of = their ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect = for the stem engines up there with the noisy stack cars that there are = coming out with.....there are just some things that are best left up to = our imagination. Those are my thoughts Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net=20 To: PRR Talk List=20 Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Bob Zoeller wrote:=20 Didn't hear it was black, though. Isn't it hard enough to get = right-of-way at home without offending the smoke abatement authorities ? = :-) ****************** Gary Mittner wrote:=20 Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE market. I = thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the smoke = feature first. ***************** Greg Mahlkov wrote:=20 List, Has it not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because = it contains SOOT - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall = when laundry left outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned gray? ***************** Bruce Smith wrote:=20 Nor do I want to think of that crap all over my track... Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit that even faintly resembled the = STEAM output of a steam locomotive. Toy train nonsense - what's next, = mooing stock cars? ;^) ***************** Jeff Warner wrote:=20 What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, especially on = DCC???? =20 We don't have the same contact areas that O scale does... **************** I agree with all of the comments listed above. What will be the = formulation of the stuff used to make the smoke? Will it leave an oily = residue on the locomotive? (If so, might keep the side rods = lubricated!!) What will be the effect on the finish of the locomotive? = Will the formulation be plastic compatible and not damage the body of = the locomotive? Will the locomotive have to go through the wash rack = periodically? =20 My first thought was of the old Lionel steamer with smoke I ran = endlessly in circles while dropping pills down the stack to get smoke - = probably 50 years ago - all the while putting stuff on the track to = crash through, etc. In other words, my Toy Train phase of model = railroading. Don Arizona __________________________________________________________________ Switch to the New Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at = http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need.=20 New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_07DE_01C4626D.7F312120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Listers:

I have been sitting on the sidelines reading this thread. I = share=20 with Don's view on if the smoke will create a residue on the engine or = the rest=20 of the layout......including all of those engines and cars that we = have all=20 tried so hard to make look just right.

If residue is an issue.....then it is a deal breaker.

Another item deals with the scale itself.....I doubt that you will = be able=20 to achieve "scale smoke". From the amount of smoke, the color of smoke = and the=20 aerodynamic characteristics of smoke, I doubt seriously if BLI will even = come=20 close to the prototype.

BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of = their=20 ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect = for the=20 stem engines up there with the noisy stack cars that there are coming = out=20 with.....there are just some things that are best left up to our=20 imagination.

Those are my thoughts

Ted Andrews

----- Original Message -----

From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net=

To: PRR Talk List

Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 = 1:05 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI = rumor

Bob Zoeller wrote:
Didn't hear it was black, = though. =20 Isn't it hard enough to get right-of-way at home without offending the = smoke=20 abatement authorities ? :-)
******************
Gary Mittner = wrote:=20
Yep, looks like the toy train market is hitting the HO SCALE = market. I=20 thought sure MTH would be the first to ruin, I mean introduce the = smoke=20 feature first.
*****************
Greg Mahlkov wrote:
List, = Has it=20 not occured to anyone that black smoke is that because it = contains SOOT=20 - that is unburned carbon particles. Does no one recall when laundry = left=20 outside to dry near the railroad tracks turned=20 gray?
*****************
Bruce Smith wrote:
Nor do I want to = think of=20 that crap all over my track...
Nor have I ever seen a smoke unit = that even=20 faintly resembled the STEAM
output of a steam locomotive. Toy = train=20 nonsense - what's next, mooing
stock cars? = ;^)
*****************
Jeff=20 Warner wrote:
What's smoke residue going to do to power pickup, = especially=20 on DCC????
We don't have the same contact areas that O scale = does...
****************
I agree with all of the comments listed = above. What will be the formulation of the stuff used to make = the=20 smoke? Will it leave an oily residue on the locomotive? (If so, = might=20 keep the side rods lubricated!!) What will be the effect on the finish = of the=20 locomotive? Will the formulation be plastic compatible and not = damage=20 the body of the locomotive? Will the locomotive have to go = through the=20 wash rack periodically?
My first thought was of the old = Lionel=20 steamer with smoke I ran endlessly in circles while dropping pills = down the=20 stack to get smoke - probably 50 years ago - all the while putting = stuff on=20 the track to crash through, etc. In other words, my Toy Train = phase of=20 model=20 = railroading.

Don
Arizona

_______________________= ___________________________________________
Switch=20 to the New Netscape Internet Service.
As low as $9.95 a month -- = Sign up=20 today at http://isp.netscape.com/registe= r

Netscape.=20 Just the Net You Need.

New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet=20 Explorer
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying=20 pop-ups.
Download now at http://channe= ls.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

------------------------= -----------------------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_07DE_01C4626D.7F312120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Smoke Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:29:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms. Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes. Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them to the outside! Problems solved! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Data plates on Pennsy SD-45s Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:38:26 -0400 From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Smoke Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:34:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: William Bigler writes: The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms. Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes. Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them to the outside! Problems solved! --------------------------------------- Until the local environment protection department officer hears of this! Gregg Mahlkov PRRT&HS #7418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:52:33 -0700 Subject: [PRR] X25 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <7973E574-CEB4-11D8-80D4-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-74 ip=216.93.195.155 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi groups, I'm going to build an X25 lettered for ARE. My lettering diagrams for ARE and Adams are otherwise identical. I know about assumptions but is it reasonable to assume that the cars would be cleaned only where they are re-lettered? I'm planning how to weather the car. Thanks. Greg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Smoke Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:25:08 +0000 Better yet model Pittsburgh and nobody will know if you have ar railroad or not. -------------- Original message from "Gregg Mahlkov" : -------------- > > William Bigler writes: > > > The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once > we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms. > Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some > enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes. > Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them > to the outside! Problems solved! > > --------------------------------------- > > Until the local environment protection department officer hears of this! > > Gregg Mahlkov > PRRT&HS #7418 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_22811_1089059108_0 Content-Type: text/html Better yet model Pittsburgh and nobody will know if you have ar railroad or not.

-------------- Original message from "Gregg Mahlkov" : --------------
>
> William Bigler writes:
>
>
> The problem, of course, will be exhausting all this smoke (especially once
> we've installed smoke units in all our steamers) from our layout rooms.
> Solution: Build a model Smoke Jack over the layout! I'm sure some
> enterprising supplier will offer a layout sized one, or even various sizes.
> Run them to ducts in the ceiling with an internal exhaust fan and duct them
> to the outside! Problems solved!
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Until the local environment protection department officer hears of this!
>
> Gregg Mahlkov
> PRRT&HS #7418
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
& --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_22811_1089059108_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: sd40-blue@comcast.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:45:42 +0000 Saw the same units working over the weekend. They are radio controlled. The loco sends back a message with what operation it's performing (braking, etc.). It really jams up the scanner!! -------------- Original message -------------- > Greetings, > I spent a couple of hours Wed Jun 30 on the "iron > bridge" (which is now a concrete bridge) on the west > end of Enola yard and I'm happy to report that it was > almost as busy as the "old days". I'm not so happy > that auto traffic is so heavy and that they whiz by so > fast. A question: there was a set of units doing > switching, a GP38-2 and 2 SW units (still in Conrail > blue) that had 2 flashing amber lights on the roof of > the GP unit. They appeared to me to be unmanned > remotely controlled units. Can anyone verify? > Joe > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21209_1089063942_0 Content-Type: text/html Saw the same units working over the weekend. They are radio controlled. The loco sends back a message with what operation it's performing (braking, etc.). It really jams up the scanner!!

-------------- Original message --------------

> Greetings,
> I spent a couple of hours Wed Jun 30 on the "iron
> bridge" (which is now a concrete bridge) on the west
> end of Enola yard and I'm happy to report that it was
> almost as busy as the "old days". I'm not so happy
> that auto traffic is so heavy and that they whiz by so
> fast. A question: there was a set of units doing
> switching, a GP38-2 and 2 SW units (still in Conrail
> blue) that had 2 flashing amber lights on the roof of
> the GP unit. They appeared to me to be unmanned
> remotely controlled units. Can anyone verify?
> Joe
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
> ---- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21209_1089063942_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:57:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Altoona Over the Fourth? X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRRers - Any reports yet on the festivities at the Altoona Curve over the 4th of July? There apparently was some sort of fireworks accident at Pittstown (?) near Pittsburgh. Have seen no reports yet on the Vice President's attendance or of an extraordinary flash picture of the curve. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:04:45 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] test message --------------Boundary-00=_XRIEG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1"

--------------Boundary-00=_XRIEG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:29:42 GMT Subject: [PRR] Smoke From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:34:21 GMT Subject: [PRR] Smoke, pt. 2 From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:34:21 GMT Subject: [PRR] Smoke, pt. 2 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:03:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Data plates on Pennsy SD-45s MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: You are referring to the trust plates. I'll look through my slides and see of I can read what it says. I think it reads: First Bank of Pennsylvania Trustee, Owner-Agent.(?). I'm not sure. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Polling Forum Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:57:34 -0400 The PRRT&HS has added a series of questions to its website Polling Forum. Please take some time and register your thoughts and desires in the areas of concern. This will help us in some way to shape our editorial policies for TKM and The Keystone. You can only vote once so things can not get too slanted. Visit the polling forum at: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_Infoexch.html Check out the rest of the Society's website at w ww.prrths.com > National Thanx. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C462E3.77F8F880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
The PRRT&HS has added a series = of=20 questions to its website Polling Forum.=20 Please take some time and register your thoughts and desires = in the areas of concern. This will help us in some = way to=20 shape our editorial policies for TKM and The Keystone. You can only vote once so things can not get = too=20 slanted.

Visit the polling forum at: http://www.prrths.com/= Phila_Infoexch.html

Check out the rest of the = Society's website=20 at www.prrths.com > National = Thanx.

Al=20
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C462E3.77F8F880-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: STMFC@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] HO scale F22 models Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:39:32 -0500 To: "'PRR-Talk TALK''" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Folks, In the August RMC, Crown Custom Imports (crowncustom@erols.com) is advertising the "PRR F22 flat car with load support pivot, F/P" for $135. Crown Custom Imports has taken over Railworks, and these cars will be the same (or nearly) as those brought in by Railworks. I just spoke with Bob, and these cars are expected in about 3 weeks. They are doing 4 numbers, and the cars will be painted a "pre war" FCC. I have no affiliation with them... just a PSA for those looking for a couple of gun flats. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Use of early GG-1s in Freight service Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:03:39 -0400 From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Use of early GG-1s in Freight service Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:03:39 -0400 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Re: X25 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:10:40 +0000 Greg Ritacco asked: "I'm going to build an X25 lettered for ARE. My lettering diagrams for ARE and Adams are otherwise identical. I know about assumptions but is it reasonable to assume that the cars would be cleaned only where they are re-lettered? I'm planning how to weather the car." Without a photo, it's impossible to give you a definitive answer; however, one of the the following things probably happened: - Without cleaning the carside, the car shop simply painted a patch of FCC over "ADAMS RAILWAY" and stenciled "AMERICAN RAILWAY" over the patch. (The patch appears clean because it's new paint.) - The entire car was repainted, relettered, and placed back into service. Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27550_1089130240_0 Content-Type: text/html Greg Ritacco asked:
"I'm going to build an X25 lettered for ARE. My lettering diagrams for ARE and Adams are otherwise identical. I know about assumptions but is it reasonable to assume that the cars would be cleaned only
where they are re-lettered? I'm planning how to weather the car."

Without a photo, it's impossible to give you a definitive answer; however, one of the the following things probably happened:

- Without cleaning the carside, the car shop simply painted a patch of FCC over "ADAMS RAILWAY" and stenciled "AMERICAN RAILWAY" over the patch. (The patch appears clean because it's new paint.)

- The entire car was repainted, relettered, and placed back into service.

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27550_1089130240_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:31:16 +0000 Ted Andrews wrote: "BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of their ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect for the steam engines up there with the noisy stock cars that they are coming out with.....there are just some things that are best left up to our imagination." Lots of opinions expressed about this; however, if you don't want these features, there are two approaches we can take: 1. Provide direct feedback to BLI. Case in point - originally, the Class K7A stock cars were not going to be offered without sound. After receiving consumer feedback, BLI is now offering them in four-packs without sound. Here's their contact info: E-Mail: info@broadway-limited.com Phone: (540) 949-8300 Fax: (540) 949-8377 Broadway Limited Imports, LLC 601 Shenandoah Village Drive, STE 9E/F Waynesboro, VA 22980 2. If you don't like it, don't buy it! Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy locomotives that smoke or stock cars that moo or oink. If you want the stock cars, reserve the ones without sound. Excess inventory speaks louder than words in the retail business. Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_16448_1089131476_0 Content-Type: text/html
Ted Andrews wrote:
"BLI has given us so much that last couple of years. However, all of their ideas are not always the right ones. I would put the smoke effect for the steam engines up there with the noisy stock cars that they are coming out with.....there are just some things that are best left up to our imagination."

Lots of opinions expressed about this; however, if you don't want these features, there are two approaches we can take:

1. Provide direct feedback to BLI. Case in point - originally, the Class K7A stock cars were not going to be offered without sound. After receiving consumer feedback, BLI is now offering them in four-packs without sound. Here's their contact info:

E-Mail: info@broadway-limited.com

Phone: (540) 949-8300
Fax: (540) 949-8377

Broadway Limited Imports, LLC
601 Shenandoah Village Drive, STE 9E/F
Waynesboro, VA 22980

2. If you don't like it, don't buy it! Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy locomotives that smoke or stock cars that moo or oink. If you want the stock cars, reserve the ones without sound. Excess inventory speaks louder than words in the retail business.

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_16448_1089131476_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:48:55 -0400 From: RamblingReck Subject: [PRR] Name The Painting-The Winner is... And the winner is.... Actually, I had a lot of people who liked Wilmington Memories. I though that maybe I had seen too many paintings named " Blank Memories", so I picked "Business As Usual". I felt that the title conveyed the idea of the wide variety of Pennsy's passenger business, as well as my regular use of the Pennsy travelling to NY and Philly. Thanks for the great title go to Greg Martin. Greg can contact me off list to talk about his reward. John Ryan --------------000106070503000704080802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii And the winner is....

Actually, I had a lot of people who liked Wilmington Memories. I though that maybe I had seen too many paintings named " Blank Memories", so I picked "Business As Usual". I felt that the title conveyed the idea of the wide variety of Pennsy's passenger business, as well as my regular use of the Pennsy travelling to NY and Philly.

Thanks for the great title go to Greg Martin. Greg can contact me off list to talk about his reward.

John Ryan

--------------000106070503000704080802-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:10:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI rumor - smoke One last comment on this subject. What will the current draw of the smoke unit be? With lighted pass. cars and multiple engines running, would this cause voltage drop problems on a DCC layout? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1089166239 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
One last comment on this subject. What will the current draw of t= he smoke unit be? With lighted pass. cars and multiple engines running= , would this cause voltage drop problems on a DCC layout?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1089166239-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:11:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a problem, the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it. Best regards, John Liebeskind -------------------------------1089202283 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a probl= em,=20 the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it.

Best regards,

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1089202283-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:11:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a problem, the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it. Best regards, John Liebeskind -------------------------------1089202283 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a probl= em,=20 the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it.

Best regards,

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1089202283-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:34:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List, John's E-mail message: "I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current draw is a problem, the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should solve it". Best regards, John Liebeskind end email message List, I'd rather see a 4th option. If BLI is determined to release the locos with smoke, they need to offer the locos without the smoke system as well. Yes, it is easy for the consumer to snip the wires or turn the smoke option off but if it is never planned on being used, why pay for its installation. Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in fan going to take up in the boiler. What has to be removed for its installation? Most likely the Metal Weight. The locos too light as it is now. Remember, this isn't 027 type locos with cast metal boilers for the main weght. And think of this. Will the fan be turning off and on 4 times per revoulution of the drivers so it is in sync with the exhuast sounds? I think not. I think the majority of the posts here show the opinion of the smoke being nothing more than a cool gimmick, a problem causer in the smaller scale and downright unprototypical.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:54:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'd have to recheck, but I thought the T, M, and J classes left space already for a Seuthe type smoke generator. Dunno about a fan. However, I have already used some of that for lead weight anyway. I have no opinion re the smoke units. I am not a hennypenny about power drain, etc, but I am skeptical it could be realistic enough to bother. BTW, without the sales volume of the "toy train" crowd (which constitute the major segment of "model railroaders"), we would probably have to pay another $100 to each loco anyway. IMNSHO. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" > Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in > fan going to take up in the boiler. What has to be removed for its > installation? Most likely the Metal Weight. The locos too light as it > is now. Remember, this isn't 027 type locos with cast metal boilers for ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:22:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] FA: Centennial History Just caught sight of an auction for a copy of the Centennial History on eBay: item #6910689674, initial bid price of $15.95. I have no interest in this auction. Best wishes. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_198.2b741ac1.2e1d6139_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Just caught s= ight of an auction for a copy of the Centennial History on eBay:
item #6910689674, initial bid price of $15.95.=20

I have no interest in this auction.

Best wishes.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_198.2b741ac1.2e1d6139_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:37:01 +0000 I don't think they look realistic when running but if it had a DCC address it could be kind of neat to turn it on and off while in the engine terminal like it was being fired up and hadn't developed enough draft yet. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from "Bob Zoeller" : -------------- > I'd have to recheck, but I thought the T, M, and J classes left space > already for a Seuthe type smoke generator. Dunno about a fan. However, I > have already used some of that for lead weight anyway. > > I have no opinion re the smoke units. I am not a hennypenny about power > drain, etc, but I am skeptical it could be realistic enough to bother. BTW, > without the sales volume of the "toy train" crowd (which constitute the > major segment of "model railroaders"), we would probably have to pay another > $100 to each loco anyway. IMNSHO. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Mittner" > > Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in > > fan going to take up in the boiler. What has to be removed for its > > installation? Most likely the Metal Weight. The locos too light as it > > is now. Remember, this isn't 027 type locos with cast metal boilers for > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15527_1089211021_0 Content-Type: text/html I don't think they look realistic when running but if it had a DCC address it could be kind of neat to turn it on and off while in the engine terminal like it was being fired up and hadn't developed enough draft yet. Norm Bell

-------------- Original message from "Bob Zoeller" : --------------
> I'd have to recheck, but I thought the T, M, and J classes left space
> already for a Seuthe type smoke generator. Dunno about a fan. However, I
> have already used some of that for lead weight anyway.
>
> I have no opinion re the smoke units. I am not a hennypenny about power
> drain, etc, but I am skeptical it could be realistic enough to bother. BTW,
> without the sales volume of the "toy train" crowd (which constitute the
> major segment of "model railroaders"), we would probably have to pay another
> $100 to each loco anyway. IMNSHO.
>
> Bob Zoeller
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Mittner"
> > Also think of this. How much room is this smoke unit with built in
> --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15527_1089211021_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] BLI smoke and other Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:36:09 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gentelmen, The price issue was brought up. BLI is adding $30 for the=20 smoke unit. The price without smoke has stayed the same. I'm suprised that no one has mentioned the addition to the=20 webpage for EMD F7's with trainphones, A&B powered for=20 $419 with two sets of A&B and one B unit. I'd be curious=20 as to which phase and paint scheme they'll be doing. Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. MLiebeskin@aol.com wrote: I suggest a third option: Just don't use it. If current=20 draw is a problem, =20 the judicious use of a pair of diagonal cuters should=20 solve it. Best regards, John Liebeskind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] FW: The PRRT&HS MOdeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:18:19 -0700

Hi = all;

&n= bsp;

On = this, the first anniversary of the Modeling Committee and "The Keystone Modeler", I would like to take the time to thank all of your for your = enthusiastic support and words of encouragement.

&n= bsp;

We = have genuinely enjoyed participating in, writing, editing, and putting = together this labor of love that is the Committee, its various works, and its = magazine.

&n= bsp;

And on = this subject, I would like to ask your opinions on subjects = you would be interested in us covering=in upcoming issues of "The Keystone Modeler". =

Are there any specific cars/diesels/steam = engines/electrics/MW/structures/infrastructure you'd like to see investigated and modeled? Is there any = info
you'veseen that would go well with a subject-specific = project?

While there are a number of classes of = gondolas and covered hoppers we have covered so far, and we are making significant = headway into the X29 project,
F30A project, PRR Pro's interactive project teaming process, and others, we would like to know what particular = subjects you think would make a good project.

And, on the subject of providing the right = type of data, are we giving you what you want on these subjects? Enough prototype data? Photos? Are they
large/detailedenough to show you what you need to know? Does the text cover the = subject well enough? Are any instructions clear? Anything = else
youwant us to know?

Are there other things you can think of that you = would like to see us get involved in?

Jack made the comment that it is especially = gratifying to see people that did not generally participate coming out and writing fine = articles for us. Thank you so = much, authors and contributors. You = have made our job a genuine pleasure.

Jack also commented that maybe our coverage of = otherwise obscure subjects will encourage other authors to come out and submit articles = and photos on those subjects. = What are you waiting for?

In addition, I would like to tell you all that we = should giveAl = Buchana medal. He has acted as = our key craftsman, encourager, engineer, arbiter, and supporter, for these past = 12 months. There is not = enough I can express in my appreciation for what he done for all of us. While his modeling goals (and = layout) have suffered as a result, he has given us all a piece of what he has = forgone. Thanks, = Al.

To Greg Martin, thanks for everything you've done, recognized or not, over the past year. I know it has been a tough one. And for you to have suffered a loss such as yours, and continued = to keep on plugging for us throughout, showed us what you are made = of.

&n= bsp;

And, = on a final note, I'd like to personally thank those generous individuals that thought enough of us to send a donation to the PRRT&HS for our support. You are = wonderful people, and we really appreciate this demonstration of = support.

Thanks for everything, including any = feedback!

Elden = Gatwood
PRRT&HS Modeling = Committee

=
P.S. For those of you that have not = heard, there are some outstanding projects in the wings. And for those that are not = PRRT&HS members, you ought to think about joining, post haste. The upcoming F-unit articles = in The Keystone will alone be MORE than worth the cost of admission. I have seen the draft(s). Simply = amazing. This will knock your socks = off, folks!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4644E.C748B878-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] FW: The PRRT&HS MOdeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:18:19 -0700

Hi = all;

&n= bsp;

On = this, the first anniversary of the Modeling Committee and "The Keystone Modeler", I would like to take the time to thank all of your for your = enthusiastic support and words of encouragement.

&n= bsp;

We = have genuinely enjoyed participating in, writing, editing, and putting = together this labor of love that is the Committee, its various works, and its = magazine.

&n= bsp;

And on = this subject, I would like to ask your opinions on subjects = you would be interested in us covering=in upcoming issues of "The Keystone Modeler". =

Are there any specific cars/diesels/steam = engines/electrics/MW/structures/infrastructure you'd like to see investigated and modeled? Is there any = info
you'veseen that would go well with a subject-specific = project?

While there are a number of classes of = gondolas and covered hoppers we have covered so far, and we are making significant = headway into the X29 project,
F30A project, PRR Pro's interactive project teaming process, and others, we would like to know what particular = subjects you think would make a good project.

And, on the subject of providing the right = type of data, are we giving you what you want on these subjects? Enough prototype data? Photos? Are they
large/detailedenough to show you what you need to know? Does the text cover the = subject well enough? Are any instructions clear? Anything = else
youwant us to know?

Are there other things you can think of that you = would like to see us get involved in?

Jack made the comment that it is especially = gratifying to see people that did not generally participate coming out and writing fine = articles for us. Thank you so = much, authors and contributors. You = have made our job a genuine pleasure.

Jack also commented that maybe our coverage of = otherwise obscure subjects will encourage other authors to come out and submit articles = and photos on those subjects. = What are you waiting for?

In addition, I would like to tell you all that we = should giveAl = Buchana medal. He has acted as = our key craftsman, encourager, engineer, arbiter, and supporter, for these past = 12 months. There is not = enough I can express in my appreciation for what he done for all of us. While his modeling goals (and = layout) have suffered as a result, he has given us all a piece of what he has = forgone. Thanks, = Al.

To Greg Martin, thanks for everything you've done, recognized or not, over the past year. I know it has been a tough one. And for you to have suffered a loss such as yours, and continued = to keep on plugging for us throughout, showed us what you are made = of.

&n= bsp;

And, = on a final note, I'd like to personally thank those generous individuals that thought enough of us to send a donation to the PRRT&HS for our support. You are = wonderful people, and we really appreciate this demonstration of = support.

Thanks for everything, including any = feedback!

Elden = Gatwood
PRRT&HS Modeling = Committee

=
P.S. For those of you that have not = heard, there are some outstanding projects in the wings. And for those that are not = PRRT&HS members, you ought to think about joining, post haste. The upcoming F-unit articles = in The Keystone will alone be MORE than worth the cost of admission. I have seen the draft(s). Simply = amazing. This will knock your socks = off, folks!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4644E.C748B878-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:52:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:
The following was posted on the MR Express part of modelrailroader.com:<= /P>
Life-Like Products will be releasing HO scale United States Railroad Adm= inistration heavy 2-10-2s, Alco RS-27s, and General Electric U30Bs and U28B= s in late 2005. The 2-10-2s will be part of the firm=92s Proto 2000 Heritag= e line; road names have yet to be announced.

My hope is that Life-Like gives us the Pennsy version with the Belpair f= irebox that was added to their USRA heavy 2-10-2's. Life-like did different= boilers for their 2-8-4's, so why not the 2-10-2's. I will be emailing thi= s suggestion to Life-Like.

Eric Lauterbach

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:24:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Boy, how can top secret projects get out to the pubic so quickly? As far as I know, no, the 2-10-2 will be strickly the N2 non-Belpair version. It would be possible however for an after market company to make a resin casting firebox to fit onto the boiler to help turn it into the more desirable N2sa. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] The PRRT&HS MOdeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:49:14 -0500 Thanks to everyone on the modeling committee and TKM. It is hard to believe that so much information has been offered / shared in just one year. The model railroading community has a fine example to follow. I have to believe that assisting the manufactures (aka arm twisting) with painting and lettering data has been a CHALLENGE. Some progress has been made in getting it right the first time. Mr. English, will you please listen too. I look forward to every new Keystone Modeler. Model reviews that the reader can trust. And offered in PDF format yet, Thanks!! It is a great time to be a PRR modeler. Pete Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C46439.F4FAD810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Thanks to everyone on the modeling committee and TKM. It is hard to believe that so much information has = been offered / shared in just one year. The model railroading community has a = fine example to follow.

   I have to believe that assisting the manufactures (aka arm twisting) with painting and = lettering data has been a CHALLENGE. Some progress has been made in getting it right = the first time. Mr. English, will you please listen too. =

   I look forward to = every new Keystone Modeler. Model reviews that the reader can trust. And offered in PDF = format yet, Thanks!!

It is a great time to be a = PRR modeler.

Pete = Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C46439.F4FAD810-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: [PRR] More on Gunbarrels Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:26:56 -0700 From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:39:47 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Processed: mail.aspects.net, Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:40:13 +0100 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 194.164.118.182 X-Return-Path: pgrace@aspects.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Reply-To: pgrace@aspects.net X-MDAV-Processed: mail.aspects.net, Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:40:16 +0100 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: An overlay kit from resin is not a bad idea as long as it includes all other castings needed to make a Pennsy loco, it is about as big as want to go... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO scale N2 coming soon? > Boy, how can top secret projects get out to the pubic so quickly? As far > as I know, no, the 2-10-2 will be strickly the N2 non-Belpair version. > It would be possible however for an after market company to make a resin > casting firebox to fit onto the boiler to help turn it into the more > desirable N2sa. .....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work! > > PRR K4s Loco Pics: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ > > PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:25:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain photos MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Lists, Anyone know what kind, if any, doorways were located at the rear of the Aerotrain Locomotive or was this a no access area at the rear? I looked at the photos on Bowser's website showing the construction and shown there appears to be closed frame work where it looks like a doorway would be fit in. But no other good photos show much more. Anyone know of some other good Aerotrain construction photos? Also, if anyone here has the Railworks version of the Aerotrain could you please share with me what they did when it came to any loco back door. A good .JPG file would be much appreciated to satisfy my curiosity......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:21:16 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] HSC 150th report Greetings to all: I posted the following on the Railway Preservation bulletin board and thought it would be of interest here: =========================================== Here's a quick summary of the Independence Day Horseshoe Curve 150th anniversary celebration: The HSC light train was drawn, fore and aft, by freshly painted Norfolk Southern GE Dash 9's, 9822 and 9828, each with HSC commemorative 150th anniversary magnetic logos affixed to the sides of their noses. The consist was 10 brand-new, never-used-in-revenue-service DTTX three-pack container well cars, spliced by a commemorative boxcar bearing the logos of all four owners of HSC -- PRR, PC, CR, and NS. The well cars held generators, strobe lights, detail lights, and spotlights, the latter of which were synchronized and choreographed for the light show with the multiple spotlights placed at parking-lot level and in the trackside park. The downpour was predicted and most of the approximately 3,000 patrons were well prepared with ponchos, rain hats, umbrellas, etc. The Vice President did appear at the Altoona Curve minor-league baseball game in the evening but the rain was relentless (the game against the Harrisburg Senators was called after eight innings) and his appearance at the HSC 150th event was canceled. (Secret Service agents had been checking out Altoona and HSC for six weeks). As dusk arrived, the westbound Amtrak 41 (Three Rivers)was about the last, if not the last, regular train to pass through the Curve before rail traffic was stopped for the festivities. NS Chairman David Goode and guests arrived aboard the NS business train on No. 1 track and disembarked, after which the business train moved out of sight. It was powered by two new SD70Ms. The rain cleared about a half-hour before the light show began. The light train was held just out of range until the program began, when the train moved westward on No. 2 track at about 5 mph to the accompaniment of live music. The train stopped with the boxcar at the apex of the Curve. The engines and boxcar had their own individual side lighting, and the nose of the 9822 was also illuminated with lamps that changed brilliant colors. The light show, which lit up the mountainsides in all directions, continued for several minutes until a 30-minute fireworks show began. At the conclusion of the fireworks, the NS business train returned to gather its passengers, and the light train began to return down the mountain to Altoona. As for the vegetation, the east side has been cleared to signal bridge 2416, opening that arc of the vista considerably, compared to what it had been. (i.e., from the parking lot, one can easily see the trains on No. 1 and No. 2 track now at that segment of the Curve). Much more remains to be done, and the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, administrator of the HSC National Historic Landmark, has plans to continue the clearing, but a caveat here: Anyone expecting to see the clear-cut conditions shown in the 1952 PRR calendar painting recreated will be disappointed. The event was conducted in such a way that those visitors on the lower level saw most if not all of the light show and the vegetation wasn't an issue. Those on the upper level saw much more of the train, but aside from the engines and boxcar, the darkened well cars weren't much to look at since the real attraction of the evening was the light show and the fireworks. The only complaints I heard were about the rain, and even that was mild because people did come prepared. A lot of things could have come unraveled or gone wrong, but they didn't. It was a worthwhile celebration that shows what's possible when cooperation occurs among a nonprofit (ARMM), a corporate sponsor (OSRAM Sylvania) and a common carrier (NS), along with many theatrical lighting consultants, rigging experts, and other subcontractors. Congratulations to ARMM exec. director Scott Cessna and his board and staff for having the vision to propose this and carry it through. Daniel Burnham, architect of Washington Union Station and PRR's Union Station, Pittsburgh, once said: "Make no little plans. They have no power to stir men's blood." Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------080702000306040804050902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Greetings to all:

I posted the following on the Railway Preservation bulletin board and thought it would be of interest here:

===========================================

Here's a quick summary of the Independence Day Horseshoe Curve 150th anniversary celebration:

The HSC light train was drawn, fore and aft, by freshly painted Norfolk Southern GE Dash 9's, 9822 and 9828, each with HSC commemorative 150th anniversary magnetic logos affixed to the sides of their noses.

The consist was 10 brand-new, never-used-in-revenue-service DTTX three-pack container well cars, spliced by a commemorative boxcar bearing the logos of all four owners of HSC -- PRR, PC, CR, and NS. The well cars held generators, strobe lights, detail lights, and spotlights, the latter of which were synchronized and choreographed for the light show with the multiple spotlights placed at parking-lot level and in the trackside park.

The downpour was predicted and most of the approximately 3,000 patrons were well prepared with ponchos, rain hats, umbrellas, etc. The Vice President did appear at the Altoona Curve minor-league baseball game in the evening but the rain was relentless (the game against the Harrisburg Senators was called after eight innings) and his appearance at the HSC 150th event was canceled. (Secret Service agents had been checking out Altoona and HSC for six weeks).

As dusk arrived, the westbound Amtrak 41 (Three Rivers)was about the last, if not the last, regular train to pass through the Curve before rail traffic was stopped for the festivities. NS Chairman David Goode and guests arrived aboard the NS business train on No. 1 track and disembarked, after which the business train moved out of sight. It was powered by two new SD70Ms.

The rain cleared about a half-hour before the light show began. The light train was held just out of range until the program began, when the train moved westward on No. 2 track at about 5 mph to the accompaniment of live music. The train stopped with the boxcar at the apex of the Curve. The engines and boxcar had their own individual side lighting, and the nose of the 9822 was also illuminated with lamps that changed brilliant colors. The light show, which lit up the mountainsides in all directions, continued for several minutes until a 30-minute fireworks show began. At the conclusion of the fireworks, the NS business train returned to gather its passengers, and the light train began to return down the mountain to Altoona.

As for the vegetation, the east side has been cleared to signal bridge 2416, opening that arc of the vista considerably, compared to what it had been. (i.e., from the parking lot, one can easily see the trains on No. 1 and No. 2 track now at that segment of the Curve). Much more remains to be done, and the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, administrator of the HSC National Historic Landmark, has plans to continue the clearing, but a caveat here: Anyone expecting to see the clear-cut conditions shown in the 1952 PRR calendar painting recreated will be disappointed.

The event was conducted in such a way that those visitors on the lower level saw most if not all of the light show and the vegetation wasn't an issue. Those on the upper level saw much more of the train, but aside from the engines and boxcar, the darkened well cars weren't much to look at since the real attraction of the evening was the light show and the fireworks. The only complaints I heard were about the rain, and even that was mild because people did come prepared.

A lot of things could have come unraveled or gone wrong, but they didn't. It was a worthwhile celebration that shows what's possible when cooperation occurs among a nonprofit (ARMM), a corporate sponsor (OSRAM Sylvania) and a common carrier (NS), along with many theatrical lighting consultants, rigging experts, and other subcontractors.

Congratulations to ARMM exec. director Scott Cessna and his board and staff for having the vision to propose this and carry it through. Daniel Burnham, architect of Washington Union Station and PRR's Union Station, Pittsburgh, once said: "Make no little plans. They have no power to stir men's blood."
Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
--------------080702000306040804050902-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:34:55 -0400 From: Ian Macoy Subject: RE: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:02:54 -0400 From: Ian Macoy [mailto:IMACOY@NACHA.ORG] Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Macoy PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Location of From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:30:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just got a Con-Cor catalog (MR must have sold them my name) and in it they offer a Pennsy 4-8-4 in 3 road number. (8750, 8752, and 8755) (Which real engines wore these numbers in the 50's anyway) According to Con-Cor: "The Pennsy Version of the 4-8-4 features a coal bunker tender, and a new smoke box door on the front of the boiler that features a top mounted headlight and PRR Keystone loco (probably meant logo) in the middle of the smokebox door." I wonder how close these will be to the theoretical R1 discussed in the Keystone a few years back.? Wonder if I should cancel my BLI order and get all three :-) They are also offering the Galloping Goose Railbus in PRR. Con-Cor is one of the last of the breed out there blatantly making up paint schemes for sales. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:52:38 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Brian: 8750 and 8752 were B6 class locos. 8755 was an F26. Dont' want to ruin your day, but the new Con-cor 4-8-4 is N scale and BLI is HO only... Of course, maybe that isn't important as collecting all the different PRR 4-8-4's available... In case anyone wants a good laugh, pictures of the new con-cor offering are here: http://www.all-railroads.com/whatsnew/adapt484.htm Jeff Warner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:14:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Brian, Jeff, and list, The N scale Con-Cor PRR 4-8-4 is an SP GS4 without skirting that has had the smokebox changed and the oil bunker replaced with a coal pile. It is also offered in other non-prototype roads, i.e. UP and D&RGW. Con-Cor makes no pretense that it is an accurate model. Sorta (and that's very sorta) resembles a Q2 minus a set of cylinders and drivers, as well as the Belpaire! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Warner" To: "Brian J Carlson" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 > Brian: > > 8750 and 8752 were B6 class locos. 8755 was an F26. > > Dont' want to ruin your day, but the new Con-cor 4-8-4 is N scale and > BLI is HO only... Of course, maybe that isn't important as collecting > all the different PRR 4-8-4's available... In case anyone wants a good > laugh, pictures of the new con-cor offering are here: > > http://www.all-railroads.com/whatsnew/adapt484.htm > > Jeff Warner > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:58:39 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <002301c46493$7dc8d3a0$7754c840@b6x9501> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What a photo op. You could double head your PRR 4-8-4 with your PRR Galloping Goose! Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:30 PM To: PRR Talk; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 Just got a Con-Cor catalog (MR must have sold them my name) and in it = they offer a Pennsy 4-8-4 in 3 road number. (8750, 8752, and 8755) (Which = real engines wore these numbers in the 50's anyway) According to Con-Cor: "The Pennsy Version of the 4-8-4 features a coal bunker tender, and a new smoke box door on the front of the boiler that features a top mounted headlight and PRR Keystone loco (probably meant = logo) in the middle of the smokebox door." I wonder how close these will be to = the theoretical R1 discussed in the Keystone a few years back.? Wonder if I should cancel my BLI order and get all three :-) They are also offering the Galloping Goose Railbus in PRR. Con-Cor is one of the last of the breed out there blatantly making up = paint schemes for sales. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Class X29 AB Brake Drawings Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:20:56 +0000 Does anyone have copies available of the following X29 brake arrangement drawings? C-99852 (1932-1934) C-408806 I assume C-99852 is for the corrugated end cars as built and C-408806 is for conversion from "K" brakes on older cars, but I have never seen these drawings and don't know for sure. I will pay all reproduction and shipping costs. Please contact me off list if you can help. Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_13324_1089307256_0 Content-Type: text/html
Does anyone have copies available of the following X29 brake arrangement drawings?

C-99852 (1932-1934)

C-408806

I assume C-99852 is for the corrugated end cars as built and C-408806 is for conversion from "K" brakes on older cars, but I have never seen these drawings and don't know for sure.

I will pay all reproduction and shipping costs. Please contact me off list if you can help.

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_13324_1089307256_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:19:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - Aero train X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5-6,8,10-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: caples5@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have a photo from the Aero train at the National Transportation Musuem in St. Louis, Mo. It is a Rock Island train but I don't know if it ran on the PRR before being sold to R.I. or not. The photo shows the rear of the loco and there is NO DOOR there. It is just a flat metal surface. Now my Bowser model has what looks like a recess that suggests that a door should be there. I don't know if there was any differences between the different Aero Trains or not. Anyone needing a photo can e-mail me off list . John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - Aero train Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:14:45 +0000 I believe the Aerotrain that ran on the PRR is the one in the Green Bay museum. Perhaps contacting them could shed some light on the one of interest. Norm Bell -------------- Original message from caples5@juno.com: -------------- > I have a photo from the Aero train at the National Transportation Musuem > in St. Louis, Mo. > It is a Rock Island train but I don't know if it ran on the PRR before > being sold to R.I. or not. > The photo shows the rear of the loco and there is NO DOOR there. It is > just a flat metal surface. > > Now my Bowser model has what looks like a recess that suggests that a > door should be there. > I don't know if there was any differences between the different Aero > Trains or not. > > Anyone needing a photo can e-mail me off list . > John Caples > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2456_1089328485_0 Content-Type: text/html I believe the Aerotrain that ran on the PRR is the one in the Green Bay museum. Perhaps contacting them could shed some light on the one of interest. Norm Bell

-------------- Original message from caples5@juno.com: --------------
> I have a photo from the Aero train at the National Transportation Musuem
> in St. Louis, Mo.
> It is a Rock Island train but I don't know if it ran on the PRR before
> being sold to R.I. or not.
> The photo shows the rear of the loco and there is NO DOOR there. It is
> just a flat metal surface.
>
> Now my Bowser model has what looks like a recess that suggests that a
> door should be there.
> I don't know if there was any differences between the different Aero
> Trains or not.
>
> Anyone needing a photo can e-mail me off list .
> John Caples
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2456_1089328485_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] BBMRA train show 7/10/04 in Tallahassee, FL Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:41:26 -0400 List, I will again have my N scle 2 ft. by 4 ft. layout in operation at the = train show in Tallahassee this Saturday. The show is from 10:00 AM to = 5:00 PM, at the North Folrida Fairgrounds on South Monroe Drive. I invite y'all to drop by to watch my H3b's in action and talk about The = Standard Railroad of The World. Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C46534.522BE650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,

I will again have my N scle 2 ft. by 4 = ft. layout=20 in operation at the train show in Tallahassee this Saturday. The show is = from=20 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM, at the North Folrida Fairgrounds on South Monroe=20 Drive.

I invite y'all to drop by to watch my = H3b's in=20 action and talk about The Standard Railroad of The World.

Gregg = Mahlkov
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C46534.522BE650-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mitoraj Thomas-Q12119 Subject: [PRR] Aerotrains Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:58:07 -0500 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgSFRUUC1FUVVJVj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBDT05U RU5UPSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9VVMtQVNDSUkiPg0KPFRJVExFPk1lc3NhZ2U8L1RJVExF Pg0KDQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PSJNU0hUTUwgNi4wMC4yODAwLjE0MDAiIG5hbWU9R0VORVJBVE9S PjwvSEVBRD4NCjxCT0RZPg0KPERJVj48U1BBTiBjbGFzcz0xMjUxMTU2MTItMDkwNzIwMDQ+PEZP TlQgZmFjZT1BcmlhbCBzaXplPTI+VGhlIFJvY2sgSXNsYW5kIA0KcHVyY2hhc2UgYm90aCBBZXJv dHJhaW5zIGZyb20gR00gYWZ0ZXIgdGhleSB3ZXJlIHRyaWFsZWQgdW5zdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgb24g dGhlIA0KUGVubnN5LCBVUCBhbmQgTllDLiZuYnNwOyBUaGUgdHJhaW5zJm5ic3A7d2VyZSBpZGVu dGljYWwgYW5kIGRpZCBub3QgaGF2ZSByZWFyIA0KZG9vcnMgb24gdGhlIGVuZ2luZXMuPC9GT05U PjwvU1BBTj48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PFNQQU4gY2xhc3M9MTI1MTE1NjEyLTA5MDcyMDA0PjxGT05U IGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgDQpzaXplPTI+PC9GT05UPjwvU1BBTj4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PFNQ QU4gY2xhc3M9MTI1MTE1NjEyLTA5MDcyMDA0PjxGT05UIGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPlRvbSAN Ck1pdG9yYWo8L0ZPTlQ+PC9TUEFOPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C465B4.61146824-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:00:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 From: John Sheets Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:17:07 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 0.6 () J_CHICKENPOX_31 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have a GG-1 builders plate which reads: ALTOONA WORKS 1-38 GG1 .4333 (NO DASH, BEN ;~) This plate was a gift to my late father from a late friend employed by PRR at Wilmington Shops in the 1970s. I wish I had more info for you, but that is about it. owen Ian Macoy wrote: > sorry -- make that Altoona-built, not Juniata > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Macoy [mailto:IMACOY@NACHA.ORG] > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:35 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s > > Does anyone know where the Builders Plate was located on > GG-1s built in the 1930s-early '40s by Juniata? Did they > have any?I've been unable to find any photos showing > builders plates (other than onthe first GG-1 rivet), but > have seen one or two photos of individual rectangular plates > themselves (for pre-Juniata production). I'm particularly > interested in early to mid (pre-'45) Juniata Shop > production. > -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:30:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 4-8-4 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-6,8 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Oh heck, I always loved the black GG1 that said "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" on it's side. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:53:19 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: Re: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-Spam-Score: 0.6 () J_CHICKENPOX_31 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ian Macoy wrote: > Thanx Owen. > > Couple questions if you have it in front of you: > > is the period before the 4333 actually right next to the "1" in GG1 so that > it would be "1-38 GG1. 4333" No. The intention might be that as spacing could indicate so, but : " I-38 G G I .4333 " with " G G I " in type twice as large as all other lettering on plate. The dot nearly touches the point on the "4" but see what I mean by spacing and ralative size of letters? > I assume "ALTOONA WORKS" is centered left to right on plate right over the > date, type and mfg # right? Correct. and in the smaller typeface, everything is caps and in same type used for other Pennsy signs, etc. Overall 16" x 6.5" with lettering and border (with integral boltholes in each corner) raised above flat portion of plate. Flat portion is black and raised portion in brushed bare metal. It is light, probably aluminum, cast with number " X 18656 " on back, and beautiful (in the eye of this beholder.) owen thorne PRRTHS #2461 > I've seen one with General Electric and their logo as well (over "BALDWIN > LOCOMOTIVE WORKS") dated 8-34. I assume this is an early model not > assembled at Altoona, but it's interesting that the electrics supplier (GW > or Westinghouse I think) are not referenced on yours. > > Thanks again for the prompt response and let me know this other stuff if you > can. > > Ian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Owen Thorne [mailto:owen@UDel.Edu] > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:17 PM > To: Ian Macoy > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s > > I have a GG-1 builders plate which reads: > > ALTOONA WORKS > 1-38 GG1 .4333 > > (NO DASH, BEN ;~) This plate was a gift to my late father from a late > friend employed by PRR at Wilmington Shops in the 1970s. I wish I had > more info for you, but that is about it. > > owen > > Ian Macoy wrote: > > > sorry -- make that Altoona-built, not Juniata > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ian Macoy [mailto:IMACOY@NACHA.ORG] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:35 PM > > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Location of Builders Plate on GG-1s > > > > Does anyone know where the Builders Plate was located on > > GG-1s built in the 1930s-early '40s by Juniata? Did they > > have any?I've been unable to find any photos showing > > builders plates (other than onthe first GG-1 rivet), but > > have seen one or two photos of individual rectangular plates > > themselves (for pre-Juniata production). I'm particularly > > interested in early to mid (pre-'45) Juniata Shop > > production. > > > -- > T. Owen Thorne > 20 Hillwood Road > Glen Farms, Fairhill > Elkton MD 21921-2031 > owen@udel.edu > 1-410-620-2078 -- T. Owen Thorne 20 Hillwood Road Glen Farms, Fairhill Elkton MD 21921-2031 owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:31:12 -0400 Group, Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there. Why = haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet? = (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but to me that seems like it = would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go over = a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this = and he has fallen off the face of the earth. Sam V ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Group,

Since the talk has been slow I wanted = to throw this=20 out there. Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of = the=20 manufactures yet? (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but = to me=20 that seems like it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or = even=20 resin to go over a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank = Zappa many=20 moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the = earth.

Sam V
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:31:12 -0400 Group, Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there. Why = haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet? = (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but to me that seems like it = would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go over = a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this = and he has fallen off the face of the earth. Sam V ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Group,

Since the talk has been slow I wanted = to throw this=20 out there. Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of = the=20 manufactures yet? (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but = to me=20 that seems like it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or = even=20 resin to go over a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank = Zappa many=20 moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the = earth.

Sam V
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C465D2.261C8F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:18:46 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > =A0 > Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why=20= > haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures=20 > yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that seems=20= > like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin = to=20 > go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons = ago=20 > about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. > =A0 > Sam V=A0 Sam, An excellent question with a pretty clear answer... I have directly=20 asked the manufacturers with whom I have contact, and EVEN if they were=20= thinking of doing a K4s, they do not seem interested in the streamlined=20= versions. Why? Market! You have 5 different potential locomotives. =20 The most attractive is the completely streamlined loco, one-of-a-kind. =20= All require a "new" tender. The 180P75 tender for the truly=20 streamlined K4 also requires one-of-a-kind trucks (OK, you could see=20 some for that tender, unstreamlined, for the I1). The only thing that=20= would be of any value in the long haul is a K4 running gear. On the=20 plus side, streamlined locomotives have a lot less exterior piping to=20 deal with, and you might sell the locomotive to a lot of non-PRR=20 modelers, but unlike the T1, you'll only sell ONE to each... so we're=20 back to market. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-12--568423551 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: = ArialGroup, =A0 ArialSince the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that seems like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. =A0 ArialSam V=A0 Sam, An excellent question with a pretty clear answer... I have directly asked the manufacturers with whom I have contact, and EVEN if they were thinking of doing a K4s, they do not seem interested in the streamlined versions. Why? Market! You have 5 different potential locomotives. The most attractive is the completely streamlined loco, one-of-a-kind. All require a "new" tender. The 180P75 tender for the truly streamlined K4 also requires one-of-a-kind trucks (OK, you could see some for that tender, unstreamlined, for the I1). The only thing that would be of any value in the long haul is a K4 running gear. On the plus side, streamlined locomotives have a lot less exterior piping to deal with, and you might sell the locomotive to a lot of non-PRR modelers, but unlike the T1, you'll only sell ONE to each... so we're back to market. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-12--568423551-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:40:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1122707974-177966414@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Admittedly, I'm a real novice when it comes to understanding the various types of signals and their purpose. I know how to read the signals okay but my struggle is in designing a simple signal system for my model railroad. I have an interlocking plant where four main tracks are reduced to three. There are some crossovers thrown in there for good measure. I have drawn my track layout in schematic form below. The normal direction of traffic is indicated by the arrowheads. I do not wish to facilitate reverse moves in the signalling -- the rare instances of reverse moves will be handled by form D. _______________________<---- / _____/_______________<---- <----________/ / <--->__________/ ---->________ \ \ \_____________________----> \_______\_______________----> So if there is a kind and generous soul out there who would be willing to recommend a signal design for this plant I would be forever indebted!! Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:05:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED From: Jamie Bothwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: > >> Group, >> =A0 >> Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why=20= >> haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures=20= >> yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that = seems=20 >> like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin=20= >> to go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many = moons=20 >> ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. >> =A0 >> Sam V=A0 >> Good Evening, You poor under-equipped HO guys have my heartfelt sympathy. ;~) = Why=20 even we lowly S scalers have a plastic streamilned K4. The more=20 attractive one of a kind one too! Now I have not put a scale rule to=20 one, and it shares a drive with other Pacifics, so it may not be for=20 rivet counters, but we do have a fairly credible replica. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--551215281 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 9, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Sam Vastano wrote: = ArialGroup, =A0 ArialSince the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there.=A0 Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet?=A0(HO scale) I know=A0that you can buy brass but to me that seems like=A0it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go=A0over=A0 a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. =A0 ArialSam V=A0 Good Evening, You poor under-equipped HO guys have my heartfelt sympathy. ;~) = Why even we lowly S scalers have a plastic streamilned K4. The more attractive one of a kind one too! Now I have not put a scale rule to one, and it shares a drive with other Pacifics, so it may not be for rivet counters, but we do have a fairly credible replica. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--551215281-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:30:00 -0400 From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] PRR Branchline Pullman Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My local hobby shop had their first shipment of the New Branchline Pullmans in today. I purchased a CENTWOOD version. And does it look nice; they even got the steps correct (most paint them black and they should be red). It looks to be on par with a Red Caboose X-29 kit. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: FW: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:47:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: -----Original Message----- From: SID JOHNSON [mailto:srj693@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:24 PM To: Christopher Baker Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Christopher, The first thing we're going to do is number the tracks as the PRR did. Next consult the PRR rulebook and look up Rule 251 and Rule 261. Please understand that Rule 251 is for movement on signal indication with the current of traffic as established by the timetable. On the other hand, Rule 261 is for movement of trains in either direction by signal indication. This is also established by timetable. JCT ___________1_________<---- / _____/___2_________<---- <----__1______/ / <--->__2________/ ---->__3______ \ \ \__________3_________----> \_______\_____4_________----> >From your drawing, tracks 1&3 West of JCT are 251 and track 2 is 261. East of JCT all tracks are 251. It is important to understand that signaling thru turnouts is speed dependent. On the PRR that translated into: Slow Speed (15 mph) was for #10 turnouts and crossovers Medium Speed (30 mph) was for #15 turnouts and crossovers Limited Speed (45 mph) was for #20 turnouts and crossovers Wye turnouts are special. Double the frog size to find the right speed. They were pretty rare on the PRR. (Indianapolis West) In modeling terms that means #4, #6 and #8 turnouts. SLOW SPEED Rules 284, 287 and 288 MEDIUM SPEED Rules 282 and 283 LIMITED SPEED Notes to Rules 282 and 283 All signaling into 251 territory, against the current of traffic, was done under Rule 290 and protected by Form D train order. Form D was never issued until Form J, form 5, has been issued, made complete and a BDA device applied on the opposing signals. >From your drawing 4 more sets of crossovers would be helpful to accommodate the full spectrum of moves for a fluid movement of traffic. Rules 316 or 317 are always specified in the timetable with respect to movements against the current in 251 territory. Please see the definition of Clear and Permissive Blocks. Its usually dependent on curvature and sight distance. Also, Passenger Trains are never admitted to an occupied block under these rules. Cab signals are beyond the scope of this discussion and are a whole different subject. I hope you find this helpful. Sid -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Baker Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 8:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Admittedly, I'm a real novice when it comes to understanding the various types of signals and their purpose. I know how to read the signals okay but my struggle is in designing a simple signal system for my model railroad. I have an interlocking plant where four main tracks are reduced to three. There are some crossovers thrown in there for good measure. I have drawn my track layout in schematic form below. The normal direction of traffic is indicated by the arrowheads. I do not wish to facilitate reverse moves in the signalling -- the rare instances of reverse moves will be handled by form D. _______________________<---- / _____/_______________<---- <----________/ / <--->__________/ ---->________ \ \ \_____________________----> \_______\_______________----> So if there is a kind and generous soul out there who would be willing to recommend a signal design for this plant I would be forever indebted!! Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:27:07 -0400 >From: Bruce Smith >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 STREAMLINED >Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:18:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:27 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Signal Design Help X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.203.81.5] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:01:51 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, Two more signal points to consider: 1) All entrances to an interlocking are protected by signals. An entry against the current of traffic may only have a dwarf signal capable of displaying Stop or Restricting. 2) Exits from interlockings generally do not have signals. (If you cannot leave the interlocking, due to occupied track ahead, you cannot enter the interlocking). In some instances with Rule 261, bi-directional trackage, a signal is provided at the interlocking exit, to give more positive protection for opposing traffic. One more thing. If you want fully working signals, you might consider Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system, which uses a computer to handle all the "relay" logic for the signals and is thus extremely flexible. Circuit boards, kits, and assembled cards are available, as is excellent tech suport from both users and Bruce Chubb. A Yahoo-group is available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/ Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:27 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Signal Design Help X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.203.81.5] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:01:51 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, Two more signal points to consider: 1) All entrances to an interlocking are protected by signals. An entry against the current of traffic may only have a dwarf signal capable of displaying Stop or Restricting. 2) Exits from interlockings generally do not have signals. (If you cannot leave the interlocking, due to occupied track ahead, you cannot enter the interlocking). In some instances with Rule 261, bi-directional trackage, a signal is provided at the interlocking exit, to give more positive protection for opposing traffic. One more thing. If you want fully working signals, you might consider Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system, which uses a computer to handle all the "relay" logic for the signals and is thus extremely flexible. Circuit boards, kits, and assembled cards are available, as is excellent tech suport from both users and Bruce Chubb. A Yahoo-group is available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/ Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chris baker interlocking request Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:11:12 +0000 Chris, contact me offline please. I know a former PRR towerman here in Chicgao who would like to work with you and help you out. Thanks, Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20553_1089465072_0 Content-Type: text/html Chris, contact me offline please. I know a former PRR towerman here in Chicgao who would like to work with you and help you out. Thanks, Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_20553_1089465072_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:39:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - STREAMLINED K4 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,8,11,15-16,18 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: caples5@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: One of the O scale companies made the one of a kind loco in plastic and they all sold well. So why can't we have it too in a more popular scale like HO. All Bowser or Bachmann would have to do is come up with a different body shell to slip it over the mechanism and one for the tender and use trucks they probably already make . How costly can that be? AHM made (Riverossi) a streamlined Hudson. How many did NYC have? Many of the Hudsons were streamlined specifically for the train they pulled. (one or two of a kind) To top that off . AHM made (sold) replicas of all the different styles that NYC had using different loco shells. AHM also sold replicas of the LV streamlined train. If they sold for a less popular road. Then the loco's will sell for a more popular railroad like the PRR. Not only PRR fans will buy the replica of the one of a kind loco that pulled the Broadway Limited. Other people will buy them just for that fact. It is a beautiful loco that pulled a famous train. ( how many NON PRR fans bought the K4 from Bachmann. I'll bet more than PRR fans!) So the proof is out there. It does sell. All we have to do is strongly suggest it to the right manufacturer! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:39:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - STREAMLINED K4 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,8,11,15-16,18 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: caples5@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: One of the O scale companies made the one of a kind loco in plastic and they all sold well. So why can't we have it too in a more popular scale like HO. All Bowser or Bachmann would have to do is come up with a different body shell to slip it over the mechanism and one for the tender and use trucks they probably already make . How costly can that be? AHM made (Riverossi) a streamlined Hudson. How many did NYC have? Many of the Hudsons were streamlined specifically for the train they pulled. (one or two of a kind) To top that off . AHM made (sold) replicas of all the different styles that NYC had using different loco shells. AHM also sold replicas of the LV streamlined train. If they sold for a less popular road. Then the loco's will sell for a more popular railroad like the PRR. Not only PRR fans will buy the replica of the one of a kind loco that pulled the Broadway Limited. Other people will buy them just for that fact. It is a beautiful loco that pulled a famous train. ( how many NON PRR fans bought the K4 from Bachmann. I'll bet more than PRR fans!) So the proof is out there. It does sell. All we have to do is strongly suggest it to the right manufacturer! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-9B Modeling Question Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:35:13 -0500 Guys: I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that Smokey = Valley Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the = Athearn Geep. Is it any good? Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be better? = I am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion. TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Guys:

I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that = Smokey Valley=20 Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the Athearn = Geep. Is=20 it any good?

Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be = better? I=20 am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion.

TIA

Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-9B Modeling Question Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:35:13 -0500 Guys: I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that Smokey = Valley Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the = Athearn Geep. Is it any good? Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be better? = I am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion. TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Guys:

I would like to model a few of these in HO scale. I know that = Smokey Valley=20 Railway Products has a conversion set which I think is for the Athearn = Geep. Is=20 it any good?

Are there other conversion kits that are out there that would be = better? I=20 am planning to use P2K GP-9 Ph. 3 for this conversion.

TIA

Ted Andrews

Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_000_06CB_01C46669.D81572A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] streamlined K-4s Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:40:23 -0400 hi y'all, that drop-in conversion for a 3768 K-4 streamliner sounds = mighty good to me......even if they wind up giving you most of the loco = from the=20 ground up. looks like that will pretty much make it a cottage industry = type product, but with all those new passenger cars coming out, i'd = venture that someone could sell fifty to one hundred of ' em. = .............but, they'd better get it right or "there'll be no way to = delay that trouble comin' every day" jaygee p.r.r.t.&h.s.# 5082 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C46672.AF999780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
hi y'all,     that = drop-in=20 conversion for a 3768 K-4 streamliner sounds mighty good to me......even = if they=20 wind up giving you most of the loco from the

ground up.   looks like that = will pretty=20 much make it a cottage industry type product, but with all those new = passenger=20 cars coming out, i'd venture

that someone could sell fifty to one = hundred of '=20 em.     .............but, they'd better get it right = or=20 "there'll be no way to delay that trouble comin' every day"

          &nbs= p;            = ;         =20 jaygee p.r.r.t.&h.s.# 5082
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C46672.AF999780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] water hatch placement Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:41:51 -0400 hello, everyone !! a while back i believe, it was gary mittner who asked if = anyone had a picture, or pictures of the water deck of a 210-F-84a = trainphone equipped tender showing the hatches placed in the location as per the B.L.I. J-1 = model; that is close together........as modeled on the old penn line = 180-F-75 long distance job. what i'd like to find out now is if anyone has = photos of the same type welded tank ( ie. 210-F-75) attached to an M-1 = or I-1 loco, showing the water deck with the hatches located to the outer edge, as = frequently shows up in J-1 shots with their captive 210-F-84a trainphone = tenders.=20 just wondering if this : A) B.L.I. J-1 hatch configuration is = wrong, or B) the wide spaced hatches were unique to lines west ( = columbus ) J-1s = thanks............................jaygee ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C466CF.176E8940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
hello, everyone !!

          a while = back i=20 believe, it was gary mittner who asked if anyone had a picture, or = pictures of=20 the water deck of a 210-F-84a trainphone equipped tender

showing the hatches placed in the = location as per=20 the B.L.I.     J-1   model; that is close=20 together........as modeled on the old penn line 180-F-75 = long

distance = job.     =20 what i'd like to find out now is if anyone has photos of the same = type=20 welded tank ( ie. 210-F-75) attached to an M-1 or I-1 loco,=20 showing

the water deck with the hatches located = to the=20 outer edge, as frequently shows up in J-1 shots with their captive = 210-F-84a trainphone tenders.

        just=20 wondering if this : A) B.L.I. J-1 hatch configuration = is=20 wrong,     or B)   the wide spaced = hatches=20 were unique to lines west ( columbus ) J-1s

          &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 thanks............................jaygee
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C466CF.176E8940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] cut levers Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:22:59 -0400 Hi All, Does anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free = State Co. that produces the carmer cut levers?? Don't mean to be a bother, just happened that I missed it somewhere in = the texts. Thanks------Fred in Vt ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C466F6.5E1AD020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,

        Does=20 anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free State Co. that = produces=20 the carmer cut levers??

Don't mean to be a bother, just = happened that I=20 missed it somewhere in the texts.     = Thanks------Fred in=20 Vt
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C466F6.5E1AD020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] cut levers Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:36:32 +0000 Fred asked: "Does anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free State Co. that produces the Carmer cut levers??" Free State Systems: freestatesystems1@comcast.net http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20products/freest/carcut-rtecrdmain.html Ben Hom --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2576_1089549392_0 Content-Type: text/html
Fred asked:
"Does anyone happen to have the contact address for the Free State Co.
that produces the Carmer cut levers??"

Free State Systems: freestatesystems1@comcast.net
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/new%20products/freest/carcut-rtecrdmain.html

Ben Hom
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2576_1089549392_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:59:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/11/04, Re:K4 I'm with John Caples and if someone makes at a resonable price, I'll buy it. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1089583195 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I'm with John Caples and if someone makes at a resonable price, I'll bu= y=20 it.

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1089583195-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:28:25 -0700 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] PRR company tank car Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Folks -- A Westerner (SP fan) somehow obtained a brass model of a PRR tank car, which he vaguely described as "AMX-8" or something like that. He foolishly assumed that I was a PRR expert who would instantly know what he was talking about. Apparently the car was a singleton, used in non-revenue service; he wants to know the car number. A photo would help with lettering. Can anybody help with our collective vast wellspring of ignorance? Might even be something here for Mainline Modeler. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:55:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter Weiglin Asks: > A Westerner (SP fan) somehow obtained a brass model of a PRR tank car, > which he vaguely described as "AMX-8" or something like that. He foolishly assumed > that I was a PRR expert who would instantly know what he was talking about. > > Apparently the car was a singleton, used in non-revenue service; he wants > to know the car number. A photo would help with lettering. Class TM8 See diuagram at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=tm8.gif And information at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=TM8 Cars were obviously in company service. Known numbers include PRR 498640 and TM8b (three dome) PRR 498748., The former is seen in Pennsy Power 3, and the later in the PRR Color Guide vol1. An Ho scale model was imported by Sunset. The cars are actually the very common AC&F Type 11 tank cars, although Sunset was apparently convinced that they were somehow "unusual". I'm told that, following miserable sales of the car as a TM8, Sunset painted and decaled a bunch of these cars in fanciful, but colorful schemes to try to get rid of the rest of them. Of course, its never been offered in a correct non-PRR scheme AFAIK. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn. AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Peter Weiglin" , "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:00:38 -0400 To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 11, 2004, at 8:55 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > Cars were obviously in company service. Known numbers include PRR > 498640 > and TM8b (three dome) PRR 498748., The former is seen in Pennsy Power > 3, > and the later in the PRR Color Guide vol1. > > An Ho scale model was imported by Sunset. The cars are actually the > very > common AC&F Type 11 tank cars, although Sunset was apparently convinced > that they were somehow "unusual". I'm told that, following miserable > sales of the car as a TM8, Sunset painted and decaled a bunch of these > cars in fanciful, but colorful schemes to try to get rid of the rest of > them. Of course, its never been offered in a correct non-PRR scheme > AFAIK. MicroTrains did the TM8 ACF Type 11 car in N scale as well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:47:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40F1DB29.2050601@datatamers.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter: The PRR had several classes of company service tank cars: Information to date indicates the following: 29 class TM8, 4 class TM8b, 1 class TM10 and 3 class TM12. They were painted FCC w/white lettering up through ca. 1936 then gray with black lettering and I've heard that one TM8 even made it into the yellow w/ black lettering scheme post 1953. The Keystone Vol 17, No. 1 Spring 1984, and Vol 17, No.2 Summer 1984, both had articles by Rich Burg on the PRR's tank car fleet. Page 126 PRR Color Guide 1, has a photo of TM8b 498805, three dome in the gray scheme. I have a slide of TM8 498639 ca. 1974 in Philadelphia in the gray scheme as well as a color print of TM8 498642 ca. 1957 in Enola in FCC. If your SP friend wants valid numbers for a class TM8 have him contact me. However, those cars would not have migrated to the SP. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:02:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry said: > MicroTrains did the TM8 ACF Type 11 car in N scale as well. Jerry, Based on the photograph I found the Microtrains is clearly NOT a TM8 (aka AC&F type 11). Rather it is a later AC&F tank car... Looks like a type 27. Particularly laughable is the lettering for CAPY 100000... Um didn't they realize that the "8" in TM8 meant 8,000 gallons? (Du-uh!!) MAN, classic micro trains... Strip it, paint it SHPX and be happy ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'Peter Weiglin'" , "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:21:44 -0400 To: "Al Buchan" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 11, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Al Buchan wrote: > The PRR had several classes of company service tank cars: Information > to > date indicates the following: 29 class TM8, 4 class TM8b, 1 class TM10 > and 3 class TM12. They were painted FCC w/white lettering up through > ca. > 1936 then gray with black lettering and I've heard that one TM8 even > made it into the yellow w/ black lettering scheme post 1953. The sleeve on the MicroTrains N scale TM8 indicates that the PRR purchased 50 of these cars in 1929. Take this with a grain of salt as MT's info isn't always reliable and does not reference a source. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR company tank car Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:41:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <45F521D8-D3ED-11D8-BEA5-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, et al.: Re: The sleeve on the MicroTrains N scale TM8 indicates that the PRR purchased 50 of these cars in 1929. The roster info of 29 class TM8 comes from "The Keystone" article, which of course doesn't make it gospel but somewhat creditable. Thanx for the input. Al. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:50:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: GP-9B Modeling Question From: John Sheets Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:12:40 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Bd Baggage Car From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <97464B74-D450-11D8-8341-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.155 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Group, Does anyone know of the whereabouts of a set of drawings for a Bd baggage car. That is besides Rob's site. I have a good photo, and a detailed elevation would really help. Thanks. Greg Ritacco. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:06:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ok, guys, save your nickles! I sent off a question to Greg Martin about what he saw at the NMRA convention, and here is his reply! ----- Original Message ----- > > Steve, > > I came home to a dead computer ... YIKES! Yes, there is an FP-7 coming and I have known for a while but now I can announce it. We will be working with InterMountain on the 5-stripe scheme but there are a couple of detail we have to get drawings for. More later... First I have to get the computer up and running. > Greg. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:11:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:42:18 +0000 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:42:18 +0000 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] FP7 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:54:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, don't know about you but I am not as concerned with who is first out with a FP7. I'll buy the one that is most correct for the PRR. Now if we could either mfg to place drill starter points on the underside of the roof for the trainphone antenna, that would be awesome. I can install them myself but a little placement help would be nice. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:57:43 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry writes: >On Jul 12, 2004, at 7:42 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > >> I heard this too from Trains.com. Hence, it looks that Intermountain >> will be joining Roco in a rush to a re-tooled FP-7! > >Where Roco (and related) typically do one road number, InterMountain >consistently does at least four road numbers, with matching B units. > >And for N scalers, trains.com reports F3's with sound, though no Pennsy units (due to small numberboards) yet. I doubt they will do F3's due to that, but I'm confident Pennsy will be included when they eventually do the F7's and FP7's. > >InterMountain is on a roll these days, typically with a dozen new releases each month! All, I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagram necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. Mounting any more writing campaigns at this point is redundant. The cost to retool the nose of the F-3 is out of the picture. The modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. There is only so much we can have our way... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR 12-1 Camp Car Conversions Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:13:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone out there have pictures of PRR CampCars converted from 12-1 Pullmans? Specifically car 492898 ex Daniel Webster? I have the ones in the 3 PRR Color guides, so no need to mention them. Does anyone know if the PRR took official "builders photo's" of the completed cap cars including the interior? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Ted Andrews , STEPHEN HOXIE , PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain F3 N Scale Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:29:39 -0400 To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 12, 2004, at 9:57 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale > F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" > in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the > numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT > nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not > all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units > in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling > committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and > lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. > > I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagram > necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. > > Mounting any more writing campaigns at this point is redundant. The > cost to retool the nose of the F-3 is out of the picture. The > modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save > the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. > There is only so much we can have our way... Greg, I had resigned myself several months ago that "correct" F3's from InterMountain wasn't going to happen. Are we better off with PRR painted units in need of fixing and touch-up paint, or are we better off with undec units? I was planning to go the undec route. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:39:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will shortly announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in Pennsy stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? Frank Brua ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Daniels" To: "STEPHEN HOXIE" ; "PRR-TALK" ; Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? > I have also heard this from an independent source this > morning... > > Bill Daniels > > --- STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > > Ok, guys, save your nickles! I sent off a question > > to Greg Martin about > > what he saw at the NMRA convention, and here is his > > reply! > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > I came home to a dead computer ... YIKES! Yes, > > there is an FP-7 coming and > > I have known for a while but now I can announce it. > > We will be working with > > InterMountain on the 5-stripe scheme but there are a > > couple of detail we > > have to get drawings for. More later... First I have > > to get the computer up > > and running. > > > Greg. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:51:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Park Varieties wrote: > Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will > shortly > announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in > Pennsy > stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? Actually, IM has been showing these for a while now, but nobody has noticed. Now the release is imminent. Many months ago I researched reefer routing, which was followed by a lesser extent with stock cars. Bottom line was that any car could appear anywhere. I have a photo of a NYC stock car at the Swift plant in Harrisburg. However, it was noted that Chicago was a major hub of activity in the stock trade. A lot of the western roads (ex. ATSF) would terminate there. Stock would be traded, and then routed anew to its destination. So, a lot of ATSF stock would be moved to PRR cars at Chicago. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:03:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Wood Reefers From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:51 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Park Varieties wrote: > >> Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will >> shortly >> announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in >> Pennsy >> stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? > > Actually, IM has been showing these for a while now, but nobody has > noticed. Now the release is imminent. Also STILL not being mentioned are the 40' wood reefers that IM did in N scale. I've got dozens myself. They are coming out very soon in HO. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:57:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TKM #12 Now Posted As PDF From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <39ED5033-D4CC-11D8-BF61-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The PDF version of the recent issue of The Keystone Modeler is now available on the Society's web site. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "STEPHEN HOXIE" , "Park Varieties" , "Bill Daniels" , "PRR-TALK" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Stock cars and Wood Reefers Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:25:48 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:51 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Park Varieties wrote: >> >>> Also coming out of the convention is info. that Intermountain will >>> shortly >>> announce an HO Santa Fe stock car. Would these have shown up in >>> Pennsy >>> stock trains or did ATSF have other routings to the East? >> >> Actually, IM has been showing these for a while now, but nobody has >> noticed. Now the release is imminent. All depends on what list you are on ;^) These have been discussed over on the Steam era freight car list some time ago. These cars will be the Sk-Q through Sk-U class cars built by the Pennsylvania Car Co. om 1928-'30, because with most of the same tooling they can produce both single deck and double deck cars (information from Richard Hendrickson). As with most new IM stuff, it will likely be RTR, however it looks like undec "flat" kits will also be available. Decals for these kits are an issue that is being addressed as no sets apparently exist right now. As for routings, yes, they would be appropriate for PRR stock trains. As with SFRD and PFE reefers, they should be present at much less than the national percentage, but there are photos of AT&SF stock cars on the PRR. In particular, you should recall that the King Ranch, famous for its Texas holdings, also held large amounts of acerage in Southeastern PA and that Texas cattle were shipped there to feed out. Leading Stock car owners (1950) ATSF - 7461 UP - 4386 CB&Q - 3753 MILW - 3690 CP - 3346 SP/T&NO - 3040 CN - 3037 PRR - 2315 GN - 2045 NYC - 1675 RI - 1207 B&O - 1192 IC - 1100 Ignore the CP and CN listings, as these would be very rare in the US, but the top car owners would definitely be seen! and then Jerry added: > Also STILL not being mentioned are the 40' wood reefers that IM did in > N scale. I've got dozens myself. They are coming out very soon in HO. Any idea about what the hold up in HO was? These were discussed well over a year ago... these are post-WWII FGE wood reefers. A great addition for the transition era PRR modeler (but alas, I am just going to have to build Sunshine kits). Be aware that almost every scheme other than the FGE scheme is bogus. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:35:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Stock cars and Wood Reefers From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 09:25 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > and then Jerry added: >> Also STILL not being mentioned are the 40' wood reefers that IM did >> in N scale. I've got dozens myself. They are coming out very soon in >> HO. > > Any idea about what the hold up in HO was? These were discussed well > over a year ago... these are post-WWII FGE wood reefers. A great > addition for the transition era PRR modeler (but alas, I am just going > to have to build Sunshine kits). Be aware that almost every scheme > other than the FGE scheme is bogus. They are coming... you're getting the stock cars first! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:57:08 +0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:19:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Listserv Software Upgrade Slated From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: An upgrade to the DSOP.COM listserv software has been acquired and will be installed tomorrow evening, Wednesday, July 14th. The installation should only take about 15 minutes, but there will be some down time, beginning around 6:30 p.m. The new version has been in public use for some time, so no issues are expected. The upgrade is extremely straightforward. I will announce when the upgrade is complete, and ask that afterwards you comment on any issues observed. Please DO NOT send "test" messages just for the sake of testing!!! I will not be making any configuration changes during the first 24 hours or so, just to narrow troubleshooting, if needed. One of the first changes that will be made thereafter will be the stripping of HTML/MIME from Digest messages... I know that more than a few of you are waiting on that change! This upgrade was paid for by the proceeds from the recent sale Merchandise Service held on the "Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD-ROM. Thank you to those who purchased and supported this upgrade! All for now... ---------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain Stock cars and Wood Reefers Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:21:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have had them on advance order for that year you mention. I panicked recently and thought my order got lost when they released another batch of N scale (missed that scale indication). I only got a "one of these days" answer re the HO version, but will be talking to IM again about an order and re the B60b in earlier livery and will ask them about the FGEX reefers at that time. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" > Any idea about what the hold up in HO was? These were discussed well > over a year ago... these are post-WWII FGE wood reefers. A great > addition for the transition era PRR modeler (but alas, I am just going > to have to build Sunshine kits). Be aware that almost every scheme > other than the FGE scheme is bogus. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:23 +0000 >From: Bruce Smith >Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:20:06 -0500 From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:23 +0000 >From: Bruce Smith >Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Intermountain FP7??? >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:20:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Livestock traffic on PRR Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Livestock traffic on PRR From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:02:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re; Stock Trains I can remember complete trains of stock cars entering Philadelphia in the 1950's Since these trains were observed at both the Merion and Overbrook stations, they were defiantly going into Philadelphia. Standing on the inbound platform was an experience, when a train was passing. The smell lingered for five minutes after the train passed. -------------------------------1089741772 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I can remember complete trains of stock cars entering Philadelphia in the= 1950's Since these trains were observed at both the Merion and Overbr= ook stations, they were defiantly going into Philadelphia. Standing on= the inbound platform was an experience, when a train was passing. The= smell lingered for five minutes after the train passed. -------------------------------1089741772-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:08:49 -0400 Walthers keeps telling me that their 2D-P5 trucks will be issued as = separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any listmember tried using = the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the Eastern Car Works 2D-P5's = to improve durability and rolling qualities? Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Walthers keeps telling me that their = 2D-P5 trucks=20 will be issued as separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any = listmember tried using the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the = Eastern Car=20 Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling qualities?

Frank Brua
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:08:49 -0400 Walthers keeps telling me that their 2D-P5 trucks will be issued as = separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any listmember tried using = the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the Eastern Car Works 2D-P5's = to improve durability and rolling qualities? Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Walthers keeps telling me that their = 2D-P5 trucks=20 will be issued as separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any = listmember tried using the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the = Eastern Car=20 Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling qualities?

Frank Brua
------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C468F3.AF1AFE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking request Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:09:01 -0400 I would like to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite interesting information in response to my signal design request. I understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the PRR -- especially in a mainline track configuration. I do have photographic evidence to the contrary, although the dates of the images far precede the era I am modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in the formative years of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral wye into the existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images contained within the E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my model railroad realm, I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise update this track configuration from that of it's early days. I am however, planning to use #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them "high-speed" routes. The wye is a #5... The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from four main tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of the route as it passes through the heart of an established downtown area. The three main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, bridged by several streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass through a short but critical tunnel as they exit the other side of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area where the south-end mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous cuts and tunnels to access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end of the city. The outer tracks will be operated in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track section will be used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic pattern will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand tracks for forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing traffic. Track-to-track connections will be limited to leading- and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks that carry traffic in the same direction. This will facilitate overtakes and provide some flexibility in accessing sidings and station platforms. Since my layout schematic is a glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards simplifying wiring I hope. Again, thanks for all the excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any other good tips for building my interlocking. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4691D.9F09BC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I would like=20 to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite = interesting=20 information in response to my signal design request. =

I=20 understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the PRR -- especially in a = mainline track configuration. I do have photographic evidence = to the=20 contrary, although the dates of the images far precede the era I am=20 modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in the formative = years=20 of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense=20 recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral wye = into the=20 existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images contained = within the=20 E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my model = railroad realm,=20 I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise update this track = configuration from that of it's early days. I am however, planning = to use=20 #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them "high-speed" = routes. =20 The wye is a #5...

The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from four = main=20 tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of = the route=20 as it passes through the heart of an established downtown area. = The three=20 main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, bridged by = several=20 streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass through a = short=20 but critical tunnel as they exit the = other side=20 of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area where the = south-end=20 mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous cuts and = tunnels to=20 access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end of the=20 city.

The outer tracks will = be operated=20 in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track section = will be=20 used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for=20 bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic = pattern=20 will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand = tracks for=20 forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing=20 traffic.  Track-to-track connections will be limited to = leading-=20 and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks that carry = traffic=20 in the same direction. This will facilitate overtakes and provide = some=20 flexibility in accessing sidings and station=20 platforms.

Since my layout = schematic is a=20 glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards simplifying = wiring I=20 hope.

Again, thanks for = all the=20 excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any = other good=20 tips for building my = interlocking.

Chris=20 Baker

PRRT&HS=20 #1918

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C4691D.9F09BC80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:33:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Foreign Stock cars I have pictures from the early fifties of D&RGW, MoPac and CB&Q stock cars being switched into the cattle pens at Ephrata, Lancaster County, Penna. The cars were coming in loaded. Assume that this was a movement to put cattle on rich Penna. pastures for final fattening before the slaughterhouse. The King Ranch, headquartered in Brownsville, Texas regularly sent cattle to Bucks Cnty farms for this reason. Their business switched to trucks with the opening of the Interstate highways. The railroads viewed the cattle business with as much affection as they did long haul passenger business. Both were labor intensive requiring healthy support facilities plus cattle had to be unloaded after a given time period to be watered. I have to wonder what kind of ordeal it must have been to reload cattle after their first experience with a cattle car? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1089768784 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I have pictures from the early fifties of D&RGW, MoPac and CB= &Q stock cars being switched into the cattle pens at Ephrata, Lancaster=20= County, Penna. The cars were coming in loaded. Assume that this=20= was a movement to put cattle on rich Penna. pastures for final fattening bef= ore the slaughterhouse.   The King Ranch, headquartered in Brownsv= ille, Texas regularly sent cattle to Bucks Cnty farms for this reason. = Their business switched to trucks with the opening of the Interstate highwa= ys. The railroads viewed the cattle business with as much affection as= they did long haul passenger business. Both were labor intensive requ= iring healthy support facilities plus cattle had to be unloaded after a give= n time period to be watered. I have to wonder what kind of ordeal it m= ust have been to reload cattle after their first experience with a cattle ca= r?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1089768784-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking request Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:10:35 -0400 Chris, The reason equilateral turnouts were not favored by prototype RR's for high speed application is that they were horrible to maintain. Every time a train passed over them, lateral displacement of the rails and ties would occur. That happened for both facing and trailing movements. Elevating the curved portion was not possible. This is not an issue in modeling. I remember vividly two situations where equilateral turnouts were damned by those personally evolved. The DE of the PRR between Indianapolis to St. Louis line lamented to me that after an Inspection Train of dignitaries went west, his track gangs had to align the equilateral turnouts for the return trip the next day. In the early '60s the L&N RR eliminated a lot of double track D-251 territory between Patio and Corbin by using an alternating single/double track arrangement with #15 equilateral turnouts governed by rule 261. Those 9,500 ton coal trains off of the CV tore them apart. Simple lateral turnouts are in place today. Best wishes on your planning. Sid -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Baker Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:09 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking request I would like to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite interesting information in response to my signal design request. I understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the PRR -- especially in a mainline track configuration. I do have photographic evidence to the contrary, although the dates of the images far precede the era I am modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in the formative years of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral wye into the existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images contained within the E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my model railroad realm, I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise update this track configuration from that of it's early days. I am however, planning to use #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them "high-speed" routes. The wye is a #5... The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from four main tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of the route as it passes through the heart of an established downtown area. The three main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, bridged by several streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass through a short but critical tunnel as they exit the other side of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area where the south-end mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous cuts and tunnels to access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end of the city. The outer tracks will be operated in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track section will be used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic pattern will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand tracks for forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing traffic. Track-to-track connections will be limited to leading- and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks that carry traffic in the same direction. This will facilitate overtakes and provide some flexibility in accessing sidings and station platforms. Since my layout schematic is a glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards simplifying wiring I hope. Again, thanks for all the excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any other good tips for building my interlocking. Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C4692E.9ACAA380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Chris,

The reason = equilateral turnouts=20 were not favored by prototype RR's for high speed application = is that=20 they were horrible to maintain. Every time a train passed over = them,=20 lateral displacement of the rails and ties would occur. That = happened=20 for both facing and trailing movements. Elevating the curved = portion was=20 not possible. This is not an issue in=20 modeling.

I remember vividly = two situations=20 where equilateral turnouts were damned by those personally = evolved. The=20 DE of the PRR between Indianapolis to St. Louis line lamented to me = that after=20 an Inspection Train of dignitaries went west, his track gangs had to = align the=20 equilateral turnouts for the return trip the next day. In the = early '60s=20 the L&N RR eliminated a lot of double track D-251 territory = between Patio=20 and Corbin by using an alternating single/double track arrangement = with #15=20 equilateral turnouts governed by rule 261. Those 9,500 ton coal = trains=20 off of the CV tore them apart. = Simple lateral = turnouts are in=20 place today.

Best wishes on your=20 planning.

Sid

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com = [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On=20 Behalf Of Christopher Baker
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 = 9:09=20 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: RE: [PRR] interlocking=20 request

I would=20 like to thank all of those who replied with quick, helpful and quite=20 interesting information in response to my signal design request. =

I understand that equilateral wyes were rare on the = PRR --=20 especially in a mainline track configuration. I do have = photographic=20 evidence to the contrary, although the dates of the images far precede = the era=20 I am modeling. It was actually rather commonplace in = the formative=20 years of the Pennsy's eastern trunk route to condense=20 recently-multi-tracked sections of the mainline with an equilateral = wye into=20 the existing main track(s). (I am citing primarily images = contained=20 within the E P Alexander book On the Main Line.) In my = model=20 railroad realm, I am 'imagining' that the PRR saw no need to otherwise = update=20 this track configuration from that of it's early days. I am = however,=20 planning to use #10 turnouts so that I can get away with calling them=20 "high-speed" routes. The wye is a #5... =20

The rationale I am adopting for the reduction from = four main=20 tracks to three is to avoid having to rebuild an expensive stretch of = the=20 route as it passes through the heart of an established downtown = area. =20 The three main tracks snake through town in a long open cut, = bridged by=20 several streets and hemmed in by buildings. The tracks then pass = through=20 a short but critical tunnel as they = exit the=20 other side of town. This is not unlike the Baltimore, MD area = where the=20 south-end mainline is reduced to two tracks passing through numerous = cuts and=20 tunnels to access Penn Station and then continuing out the other end = of the=20 city.

The outer tracks will = be operated=20 in one direction only. The middle track in the three-track = section will=20 be used as a sort of passing - or overflow- track, and be signaled for = bi-directional traffic. Where four tracks are laid, the traffic = pattern=20 will be that of a modern four-lane highway: with the two right-hand = tracks for=20 forward traffic and the two left-hand tracks carrying the opposing=20 traffic.  Track-to-track connections will be limited to = leading- and trailing- point crossovers only between pairs of tracks = that=20 carry traffic in the same direction. This will facilitate = overtakes and=20 provide some flexibility in accessing sidings and station=20 platforms.

Since my layout = schematic is a=20 glorified dogbone, this practice will go a long way towards = simplifying wiring=20 I hope.

Again, thanks = for all the=20 excellent help, and please let me hear from you if you think of any = other good=20 tips for building my = interlocking.

Chris=20 Baker

PRRT&HS=20 #1918

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C4692E.9ACAA380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-9 Ph. III Question Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:40:44 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS CHicago Chapter meeting Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:25:55 +0000 If anyone is going to be in the Chicago area on 7/24 we are holding our quarterly meeting that day at 2:00PM in PUllman. Topics will be the Mt Carmel ore train by John Sheets who has done quite a bit of research and How to interpret an interlocking diagram by Bob Fredland who worked Englewood Tower for many years. attendees are welcome to bring their favorite interlocking digram for Bob to interpret anything they don't understand about it. Bob also worked for Union Switch and Signal for several years after leaving direct railroad employment. Please contact me for further info off line if you are interested. Our fall meeting will continue viewing PRR generated valuation pictures taken in the early to mid 1950's. At that time we will be viewing the mainline. Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27579_1089815155_0 Content-Type: text/html If anyone is going to be in the Chicago area on 7/24 we are holding our quarterly meeting that day at 2:00PM in PUllman. Topics will be the Mt Carmel ore train by John Sheets who has done quite a bit of research and How to interpret an interlocking diagram by Bob Fredland who worked Englewood Tower for many years. attendees are welcome to bring their favorite interlocking digram for Bob to interpret anything they don't understand about it. Bob also worked for Union Switch and Signal for several years after leaving direct railroad employment. Please contact me for further info off line if you are interested. Our fall meeting will continue viewing PRR generated valuation pictures taken in the early to mid 1950's. At that time we will be viewing the mainline. Norm Bell --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_27579_1089815155_0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1F43EDF0-D5BB-11D8-B1F7-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prrths_modeling_committee@yahoogroups.com, STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "PRR-TALK TALK''" , RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] The next PRR Project, G22 gondolas Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:27:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Afternoon Everyone, The PRR Projects Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/) is going to start its next project, the G22 gondola, tomorrow, July 15. As usual, builders in all scales are welcome. In HO scale, most of us will be building the Westerfield kit, which is arguably the easiest resin kit on the market. For those of you who have never built a resin kit, it is the perfect opportunity to get over "Westerfear" and build one! Members in other scales are talking about scratchbuilding, and one N-scale member may build masters to allow her to resin cast the G22! The PRRPro group is organized so that all members may share ideas, hints, questions and especially progress reports, so everyone's contributions are welcome. Only posts directly relevant to the project at hand (or the previous projects) are allowed. To join this project, or to find information on our previous projects (F30, R50B, X29) go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:30:04 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] More on Intermountain's F3 N Scale Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry writes in reply to my post: >> I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagrams necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. >> The modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. Jerry's partial reply: >Greg, I had resigned myself several months ago that "correct" F3's from InterMountain wasn't going to happen. >Are we better off with PRR painted units in need of fixing and touch-up paint, or are we better off with undec units? I was planning to go the undec route.< ALL here! We all make our choices and I for one would find it much easier to correct the numberboards than to suffer with the stripes that are too thick as offered by Microscale, again you must weigh the options of paint and decaling vs. detail and touch up. Intermountain is certainly willing to listen and go forward with my recommendations and using "OUR" formula for colors of the basic DGLP/DGLE and Buff to PRR lettering diagrams. I like Marty's attitude about the hobby and his forward thinking. I have to ask myself, are we model builders or model collectors... I think the truth is somewhere in the middle so we have to learn to accept some compromises. As I told Marty, I cut my teeth on correcting the old Athearn/Globe F-unit and I still have one set of them that I plan to do once again, hopefully as a PRR-PRO Group effort, as I have to believe there are still millions owned by modelers. Remember, Ben Hom didn't ignore the TMI/Walthers X29 in his articles of late in TKM. At some point reality sets in and we realize we can't afford to dump everything we own for the sake of buying new... KUDOS to BEN, a realist and tremendous Keystone Modeler and if we were to offer a modeler of the year award he would take 1st PLACE HANDS DOWN! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:30:04 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] More on Intermountain's F3 N Scale Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry writes in reply to my post: >> I met with Intermountain during the convention regarding the N Scale F-3 units and my advise to them was to release the F-3 units "as is" in PRR paint and for those modelers willing to correct the numberboards with styrene or by replacing the nose with the FT nose(way to much work for any sain modeler, but then again we are not all sain)they would have a beautiful representation of the PRR units in N Scale. This will be my recommendation to the PRR Modeling committee ASAP, and we will have in place the proper paint and lettering schemes for the future releases of the N Scale F-7's. I will see that they get the proper paint and lettering diagrams necessary to apply to the units as soon a they are ready. >> The modifaction necessary to correct the nose of the N Scale unit and save the paint is simple and will yield you an excellant N Scale model. Jerry's partial reply: >Greg, I had resigned myself several months ago that "correct" F3's from InterMountain wasn't going to happen. >Are we better off with PRR painted units in need of fixing and touch-up paint, or are we better off with undec units? I was planning to go the undec route.< ALL here! We all make our choices and I for one would find it much easier to correct the numberboards than to suffer with the stripes that are too thick as offered by Microscale, again you must weigh the options of paint and decaling vs. detail and touch up. Intermountain is certainly willing to listen and go forward with my recommendations and using "OUR" formula for colors of the basic DGLP/DGLE and Buff to PRR lettering diagrams. I like Marty's attitude about the hobby and his forward thinking. I have to ask myself, are we model builders or model collectors... I think the truth is somewhere in the middle so we have to learn to accept some compromises. As I told Marty, I cut my teeth on correcting the old Athearn/Globe F-unit and I still have one set of them that I plan to do once again, hopefully as a PRR-PRO Group effort, as I have to believe there are still millions owned by modelers. Remember, Ben Hom didn't ignore the TMI/Walthers X29 in his articles of late in TKM. At some point reality sets in and we realize we can't afford to dump everything we own for the sake of buying new... KUDOS to BEN, a realist and tremendous Keystone Modeler and if we were to offer a modeler of the year award he would take 1st PLACE HANDS DOWN! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:06:22 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Elden writes: >Ted; >With at least three phases of GP-35, I am curious as to which one they are tooling for. �I recall that PRR had the early ones with latches on most doors and the thicker sill, plus some with the revised hood doors, most of which didn't have latches, but I can't recall the story with that phase that went to the thin sill. �Anybody know? >Elden KEEP GOING>>>>� >-----Original Message----- >From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] >Guys: > >I heard this too from Trains.com. Hence, it looks that Intermountain will be joining Roco in a rush to a re-tooled FP-7! Lets see who hits the street (or rails) with it first ;-) > >In addition, Trains.com annouced that Athearn will be producing RTR GP-35 this fall. They will be correct hood width and and be based on a re-tooled Rail Power Products shell. While the first release will not include the Pennsy, hopefully they will in successive releases. If so, I hope that Greg Martin can oversee the PRR color and lettering scheme as he has done so well on the Genesis F-units. >If anyone is modeling the Pennsy in the mid-1960's, the GP-35 is a MUST HAVE on your layout. The GP-35 and GP-9 were the most numerous system freight engines in 1965. It is great that we don't have to rely on the increasingly rare Kato units.....which were inaccurately painted Pennsy anyway. >Ted Andrews Steve, Ted, Elden and all... The Athearn GP-35 is definitely the phase 1 (a or b) and a retool of the RPP shell. Very Nicely done (read as knocks your sock off) and I believe it will fit for the PRR units, but I need to have one in hand to be certain. The PRR Modeling Committee will be more than willing to work with Athearn on this projec I am sure, but personally "my cup runith ove"... 3^) But again I need a one in had to verify and I will try to do that. With our current relatinship we SHALL get it done. Now as for the FP-7 it is all new tooling and not yet complete for the PRR veriation. We as a committe have some work to do, specificly what is not for public announcement... It shall be done. With regard to ROCO I am not aware of any retooling of the nose which is the issue. All the isues will be detailed to the committee in the near future. I must say this was the most exciting show I have attended in years. There's more than you know or was announced. Just as a general note... the Intermountain B60B was very well done, good color match as compared to the DPH/IM P85br and the lettering was SWEET! We have our work cut out for us but we will do as much as we can to get what we can done for the group. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1D99D396-D5E7-11D8-A90F-000A95C04372@dsop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk , Reading-talk , Conrail-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listserv Update Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:42:41 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Unrelated to the planned upgrade, tornados took out power to our location from about 4:00 p.m. to about 5:45 p.m. Everything came back up fine, even though our UPS ran out prior to our ability to shut down the servers. The upgrade seemed to go great. This is kind of a test message, in fact. Please respond off-list to this account if you run into any problems with the upgrade. I lied. I am anxious and went ahead and made two changes... 1) HTML will (should) now be stripped from digests. It is possible the next one will be partially coded as it was in the midst of generation, but I suspect digests generated after 2 a.m. tomorrow will be clean. 2) The listserv previously sought to reject inbound messages containing HTML code. Now it will initially accept it. It will try to strip the code out. If it can, it will post. If it fails to strip the code, it will then reject it. This was a feature I wasn't expecting that could actually be quite helpful, especially to AOL users. Other than that, let's just see what happens... ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John and Peg" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:09:00 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What Sid Johnson said is how I understand it. Except, I think Pennsy numbered the tracks from south to north? John Dolensky Akron, Ohio PRRT&HS #7102 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of SID JOHNSON Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: FW: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help -----Original Message----- From: SID JOHNSON [mailto:srj693@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 11:24 PM To: Christopher Baker Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Christopher, The first thing we're going to do is number the tracks as the PRR did. Next consult the PRR rulebook and look up Rule 251 and Rule 261. Please understand that Rule 251 is for movement on signal indication with the current of traffic as established by the timetable. On the other hand, Rule 261 is for movement of trains in either direction by signal indication. This is also established by timetable. JCT ___________1_________<---- / _____/___2_________<---- <----__1______/ / <--->__2________/ ---->__3______ \ \ \__________3_________----> \_______\_____4_________----> >From your drawing, tracks 1&3 West of JCT are 251 and track 2 is 261. East of JCT all tracks are 251. It is important to understand that signaling thru turnouts is speed dependent. On the PRR that translated into: Slow Speed (15 mph) was for #10 turnouts and crossovers Medium Speed (30 mph) was for #15 turnouts and crossovers Limited Speed (45 mph) was for #20 turnouts and crossovers Wye turnouts are special. Double the frog size to find the right speed. They were pretty rare on the PRR. (Indianapolis West) In modeling terms that means #4, #6 and #8 turnouts. SLOW SPEED Rules 284, 287 and 288 MEDIUM SPEED Rules 282 and 283 LIMITED SPEED Notes to Rules 282 and 283 All signaling into 251 territory, against the current of traffic, was done under Rule 290 and protected by Form D train order. Form D was never issued until Form J, form 5, has been issued, made complete and a BDA device applied on the opposing signals. >From your drawing 4 more sets of crossovers would be helpful to accommodate the full spectrum of moves for a fluid movement of traffic. Rules 316 or 317 are always specified in the timetable with respect to movements against the current in 251 territory. Please see the definition of Clear and Permissive Blocks. Its usually dependent on curvature and sight distance. Also, Passenger Trains are never admitted to an occupied block under these rules. Cab signals are beyond the scope of this discussion and are a whole different subject. I hope you find this helpful. Sid -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Christopher Baker Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 8:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Admittedly, I'm a real novice when it comes to understanding the various types of signals and their purpose. I know how to read the signals okay but my struggle is in designing a simple signal system for my model railroad. I have an interlocking plant where four main tracks are reduced to three. There are some crossovers thrown in there for good measure. I have drawn my track layout in schematic form below. The normal direction of traffic is indicated by the arrowheads. I do not wish to facilitate reverse moves in the signalling -- the rare instances of reverse moves will be handled by form D. _______________________<---- / _____/_______________<---- <----________/ / <--->__________/ ---->________ \ \ \_____________________----> \_______\_______________----> So if there is a kind and generous soul out there who would be willing to recommend a signal design for this plant I would be forever indebted!! Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: [PRR] Out of Office AutoReply: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/15/04 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:13:40 -0400 From: Mitoraj Thomas-Q12119 Subject: [PRR] Out of Office AutoReply: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/15/04 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:13:44 -0500 Cc: "Prr-Talk@Dsop. Com" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Signal Design Help Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:31:34 -0400 To: "John and Peg" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Jul 14, 2004, at 11:09 PM, John and Peg wrote: > What Sid Johnson said is how I understand it. Except, I think Pennsy > numbered the tracks from south to north? That is correct. Tracks were numbered from south to north and, if I am not mistaken, from west to east on N-S lines. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] For Sale - American Ltd. N Ga. 2D-P5 Trucks Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:50:12 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Do to a purchasing error, I have one American Limited #8190 N Scale = Pennsy 2D-P5 passenger truck kit available for sale. These trucks are = easy to asseble and include plastic wheelsets. Price is $3.60 including = First Class Mail. Contact me directly if interested. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] for sale- HO scale PRR items From: Frederick Ripley Message-Id: <35C1C7DA-D712-11D8-8840-000A95C04372@dsop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk , Conrail-talk , Reading-talk From: Listmaster Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - ListServ Comments Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:23:41 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Subscribers: We've now been on the new software for about 36 hours... I know the first digest, which was in mid-process at the time of the upgrade, was botched. This was somewhat anticipated. A new digest went out last night. It appears complete. For those who had the HTML issues with the digest before, please contact me off-list and let me know how it looks. A few "AutoReply" posts got through to the list. The old software stopped these. The new software did not. However, there is a configurable "stop" filter and I have added a few entries that were not there by default. It is catching those now. Any other issues, please contact me off-list. Thanks. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Food for thought: new steam models X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on a steamlocomotive list that I am on. Sunset has done a lot of Pennsy steam in both O and HO. This note was posted by Bill Daniels on the STMFC list. >I just got the following info from an online supplier >I occasionally deal with...looks like Sunset isn't >taking the threat of BLI sitting down. > >we has received the following information from Sunset >Models on a new line of exciting, fully detailed, >limited edition 100% lifetime brass scale models for >"HO". The 20th Century Limited Edition models (ed. >note...funny name!) are built for operators as well as >collectors. Featuring a brand new, all ditital sound >system called "Sunset Sound". Synchronized to the >motion of the drivers, the chuffing sounds will signal >a new standard for "HO" sound and compatibility. Each >model will come with a free box to operate the >whistle and bell and can be used with any existing DC >transformer. > >Install your favorite DCC decoder to have full control >of the features of your new high tech masterpiece. >Enjoy full range of operation. These models have a 12 >volt operation range from 3 volts to 15 volts on the >track. Other sound equipped models won't move until >they reach 9 volts on the track, giving only 1/2 of >the operation range of a 20th Century Limited Edition. > (ed note 2...the starting voltage of BLI's system is >adjustable) >First in the series of fine brass models is the NP >"A" Class 4-8-4. There are 4 different versions to >choose from, the SP&S #700 is still in operation (A-3 >with oil tender). The A-3 with a 6 wheel truck >semi-vanderbuilt coal tender, the A-4 with a grey >painted boiler, stamped pilot, centipede tender, all >weather cab and vestibule. > >SP&S #700 w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-3(open cab)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-4(grey boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $649.95 >NP A-5(black boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 > >===== >Bill Daniels >Las Vegas, NV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Food for thought: new steam models X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com This was posted on a steamlocomotive list that I am on. Sunset has done a lot of Pennsy steam in both O and HO. This note was posted by Bill Daniels on the STMFC list. >I just got the following info from an online supplier >I occasionally deal with...looks like Sunset isn't >taking the threat of BLI sitting down. > >we has received the following information from Sunset >Models on a new line of exciting, fully detailed, >limited edition 100% lifetime brass scale models for >"HO". The 20th Century Limited Edition models (ed. >note...funny name!) are built for operators as well as >collectors. Featuring a brand new, all ditital sound >system called "Sunset Sound". Synchronized to the >motion of the drivers, the chuffing sounds will signal >a new standard for "HO" sound and compatibility. Each >model will come with a free box to operate the >whistle and bell and can be used with any existing DC >transformer. > >Install your favorite DCC decoder to have full control >of the features of your new high tech masterpiece. >Enjoy full range of operation. These models have a 12 >volt operation range from 3 volts to 15 volts on the >track. Other sound equipped models won't move until >they reach 9 volts on the track, giving only 1/2 of >the operation range of a 20th Century Limited Edition. > (ed note 2...the starting voltage of BLI's system is >adjustable) >First in the series of fine brass models is the NP >"A" Class 4-8-4. There are 4 different versions to >choose from, the SP&S #700 is still in operation (A-3 >with oil tender). The A-3 with a 6 wheel truck >semi-vanderbuilt coal tender, the A-4 with a grey >painted boiler, stamped pilot, centipede tender, all >weather cab and vestibule. > >SP&S #700 w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-3(open cab)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 >NP A-4(grey boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $649.95 >NP A-5(black boiler)w/sound 4-8-4 MSRP $599.95 > >===== >Bill Daniels >Las Vegas, NV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Athearn "H31B" Composite Hopper (Ready to Roll) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:33:26 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bogus model alert: Athearn #91117, PRR "Class H31B" 34 ft Composite Hopper (5 pack), expected July 2004, MSRP $79.98 http://www.athearn.com/RTR/34_composite_hopper/34composite_hopper.html The Athearn composite twin is a decent model of the War Emergency twin hopper design; however, it does not accurately model PRR Class H31B. The Pennsy cars had Z-section truss members and a different number of boards. Modelers desiring a closer car can use the Accurail composite twin. This car is actually the one-off Class H31A car, but it's much closer to the prototype than the Athearn car. http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2700/2702.jpg http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2700/2752.jpg Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Build Dates etc. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:54:48 -0400 From: Ian Macoy Subject: [PRR] GG-1 Build Dates etc. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:54:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:03:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] renumbering of E-units From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:03:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] renumbering of E-units From: Frederick Ripley From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] water pans Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:33:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone point me to some pictures? Thanks, George New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] water pans Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:33:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone point me to some pictures? Thanks, George New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kent Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR rail guage of 4' 9" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:36:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR rail guage of 4' 9" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rail gauges were marked and could be adjusted. In the steam era track gauge was widened on curves and through turnouts to allow for the steamers' longer wheelbase. So, a 4' 9" gauge was probably a reference to a condition for other than a tangent. A few years ago when the Union Pacific's 8444 4-8-4 was backing through the yards in Denver, Colorado, the centipede tender derailed when it encountered a turnout that was too tight for it. This same route through the yard had been used in the steam era but had been regauged for the diesels. Another amusing story of track gauge was when the U.P. started using their Centennial diesel-electrics from EMD, their rigid frame eight wheel trucks were found to "buck" through the sharper yard and engine terminal turnouts. A few turnouts were regauged for these locos and restrictions were put on them when operating in the yards and terminals. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "fhbimb" Subject: Re: [PRR] water pans Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:43:54 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com George, While this is not an answer to your question you can see in the movie "LaBette Humaine" the operation of water pickup control from the cab/tender view. This is shown in a short segement of the 75 minute movie (VHS) from Timeless Video, Inc. This 1938 movie stars Jean Gabin and Simone Simon and is directed by Jean Renoir. Great railroading! Frank Beberdick ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rudy" To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: [PRR] water pans > One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for > tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone > point me to some pictures? > Thanks, > George > New Bloomfield, Pa. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:28:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First off, thanks to everyone who replied to my question on water pans. I have enough info now that I think I can move forward with that project. Now another problem. I recently bought a copy of a book titled "Bells and Whistles in old Perry". It's great reading covering the Newport & Sherman's Valley that I'm modeling. I did not know it until now that the PRR spur to the freight transfer tracks in Newport actually crossed the narrow gauge track on the N&SV. I doupt I will ever find a ready made crossover of such so hand building will be needed. Problem is I have never hand laid track much less make a crossover. Is there anyone out there willing to make one for me? Of corse I'm willing to pay. The HO standard gauge track is code 83 and the HOn3 track is code 55. The crossover would need to be about 30 degrees. Anybody willing? Thanks, George Rudy New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George Rudy" Subject: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:28:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-VirusCheck: Found to be clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com First off, thanks to everyone who replied to my question on water pans. I have enough info now that I think I can move forward with that project. Now another problem. I recently bought a copy of a book titled "Bells and Whistles in old Perry". It's great reading covering the Newport & Sherman's Valley that I'm modeling. I did not know it until now that the PRR spur to the freight transfer tracks in Newport actually crossed the narrow gauge track on the N&SV. I doupt I will ever find a ready made crossover of such so hand building will be needed. Problem is I have never hand laid track much less make a crossover. Is there anyone out there willing to make one for me? Of corse I'm willing to pay. The HO standard gauge track is code 83 and the HOn3 track is code 55. The crossover would need to be about 30 degrees. Anybody willing? Thanks, George Rudy New Bloomfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:54:18 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] LISTING PRR FOR SALE STUFF Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:54:18 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] LISTING PRR FOR SALE STUFF From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Gauges "near standard" In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR rail guage of 4' 9" > From: "Kent Miller" > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 > > Does anyone recall reading that the PRR ever used a rail gauge of 4-feet, > 9-inches in 1866. Thank you, Kent If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in that period. I often read this in relation to PRR affiliates. Remember that interchange was not very common in 1866, so it's hard to assess whether 4-8.5 cars were a problem on the Ohio lines. A look at accounts of US troop movements during the Civil War might give some insight here. Not known -- whether B&O's Ohio affiliates were also 4-9 in this period. Also vague -- most sources are silent on the timing of tightening up the various 4-9 and even 4-10 gauges that existed in the US, especially in the northeast. It's unlikely this all happened overnight just because the Pacific Railroad Act of 1863 set 4-8.5 as standard gauge for the UP/CP. Up for grabs -- most trackage in Kentucky was 5 foot (as a legacy, Louisville's trolley lines stayed 5 foot). However, due to a number of factors, some or all of the LC&L's lines ("Lexington Cincinnati & Louisville") were built to "northern" gauges, and so for example the Short Line came into Louisville as a standard gauge operation. Later under L&N ownership, the LCL lines were converted to 5' -- only to be converted back to 56.5" in the 1880's. Unknown -- were any of the great construction projects of southern railroading in the 1880's built originally at 56.5"? The list might include the Cincinnati Southern (SR's Cincinnati New Orleans & Texas Pacific), the Louisville Southern (now SR from Danville KY to Louisville), or the St. Louis Air Line (now SR from New Albany IN to St. Louis MO). If they were originally built at 4-8.5 (or 4-9), that partially explains the rush from 1886 on to standard-gauge most southern main lines and branches -- my belief is that very little 5' track survived in the south in 1890. Can anyone speak to this interesting but admittedly arcane subject? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:46 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Traction motor abuse... In a message dated 7/14/04 4:36:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > One thing I would comment on. A New Haven Mech engr said that blown > crankshafts on FA/FB power was not much of a problem on NH. That > other roads' Mech people were always calling him, asking him how his > road avoided it. He wrote - in NHRRHTA SHORELINER - that the problem > was engine crews abusing the short-time ratings when climbing > grades. That the big GE traction motors could take plenty of abuse, > but the crankshaft would go. Other type units (EMD) were just the > reverse. A engineer couldn't overtorque the shaft to the breaking > point because the traction motor would burn up first. He advised > that RFEs had to watch their crews and emphasize the short time > ratings (overload) MUST be obeyed! > Interesting comment, as the early EMD traction motors were derived from & very similar to GE traction motors. I've always heard it was Westinghouse tractionmotors that were hard to burn up (larger, more metal per traction motor, therefore longer overamperage rating). Of course, I could be misinformed... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] BAR Geeps In a message dated 7/15/04 4:59:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > From: "Al Buchan" > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps > > Re: Brian's - My research indicates they stayed pretty close to the > docks. > > The BAR GP's were originally leased to work the Erie Docks during the > ore season. They eventually migrated to Cleveland. I really don't know > if they ever made it out on the "high iron." Will be interested to see > photos. > > Al > At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. Since I've always heard they were equipped to PRR specs, my assumption has always been that when on the property they went into the general freight pool with the other GP9's -- of course, the PRR GP9's were not in the Enola "system-wide" pool as late as 1966 or 1974. OTOH, if assigned to mineral service, as on the Cleveland Division, they did get around on occasion. So did the big Alcos, especially during the miners vacation each July. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:52 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] H-10-44 assignments In a message dated 7/14/04 2:45:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The H-10-44s were all Lines West, mostly places like Columbus, Cincy, > Chicago and the like. The like definitely including Xenia, and Dayton. Also, Louisville/Jeffersonville, which makes one wonder about Columbus IN, Indianapolis, etc. One clue -- I've never seen pix of an H-10-44 in Madison, North Madison, nor North Vernon IN (these are three points on the PRR's Madison Branch out of Columbus IN, but then the Madison Branch had its own SD7's). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR rail guage of 4' 9" > From: "Kent Miller" > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 > > Does anyone recall reading that the PRR ever used a rail gauge of 4-feet, > 9-inches in 1866. Thank you, Kent If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in that period. I often read this in relation to PRR affiliates. Remember that interchange was not very common in 1866, so it's hard to assess whether 4-8.5 cars were a problem on the Ohio lines. A look at accounts of US troop movements during the Civil War might give some insight here. Not known -- whether B&O's Ohio affiliates were also 4-9 in this period. Also vague -- most sources are silent on the timing of tightening up the various 4-9 and even 4-10 gauges that existed in the US, especially in the northeast. It's unlikely this all happened overnight just because the Pacific Railroad Act of 1863 set 4-8.5 as standard gauge for the UP/CP. Up for grabs -- most trackage in Kentucky was 5 foot (as a legacy, Louisville's trolley lines stayed 5 foot). However, due to a number of factors, some or all of the LC&L's lines ("Lexington Cincinnati & Louisville") were built to "northern" gauges, and so for example the Short Line came into Louisville as a standard gauge operation. Later under L&N ownership, the LCL lines were converted to 5' -- only to be converted back to 56.5" in the 1880's. Unknown -- were any of the great construction projects of southern railroading in the 1880's built originally at 56.5"? The list might include the Cincinnati Southern (SR's Cincinnati New Orleans & Texas Pacific), the Louisville Southern (now SR from Danville KY to Louisville), or the St. Louis Air Line (now SR from New Albany IN to St. Louis MO). If they were originally built at 4-8.5 (or 4-9), that partially explains the rush from 1886 on to standard-gauge most southern main lines and branches -- my belief is that very little 5' track survived in the south in 1890. Can anyone speak to this interesting but admittedly arcane subject? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR rail guage of 4' 9" > From: "Kent Miller" > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:08:11 -0400 > > Does anyone recall reading that the PRR ever used a rail gauge of 4-feet, > 9-inches in 1866. Thank you, Kent If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in that period. I often read this in relation to PRR affiliates. Remember that interchange was not very common in 1866, so it's hard to assess whether 4-8.5 cars were a problem on the Ohio lines. A look at accounts of US troop movements during the Civil War might give some insight here. Not known -- whether B&O's Ohio affiliates were also 4-9 in this period. Also vague -- most sources are silent on the timing of tightening up the various 4-9 and even 4-10 gauges that existed in the US, especially in the northeast. It's unlikely this all happened overnight just because the Pacific Railroad Act of 1863 set 4-8.5 as standard gauge for the UP/CP. Up for grabs -- most trackage in Kentucky was 5 foot (as a legacy, Louisville's trolley lines stayed 5 foot). However, due to a number of factors, some or all of the LC&L's lines ("Lexington Cincinnati & Louisville") were built to "northern" gauges, and so for example the Short Line came into Louisville as a standard gauge operation. Later under L&N ownership, the LCL lines were converted to 5' -- only to be converted back to 56.5" in the 1880's. Unknown -- were any of the great construction projects of southern railroading in the 1880's built originally at 56.5"? The list might include the Cincinnati Southern (SR's Cincinnati New Orleans & Texas Pacific), the Louisville Southern (now SR from Danville KY to Louisville), or the St. Louis Air Line (now SR from New Albany IN to St. Louis MO). If they were originally built at 4-8.5 (or 4-9), that partially explains the rush from 1886 on to standard-gauge most southern main lines and branches -- my belief is that very little 5' track survived in the south in 1890. Can anyone speak to this interesting but admittedly arcane subject? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Traction motor abuse... X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/14/04 4:36:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > One thing I would comment on. A New Haven Mech engr said that blown > crankshafts on FA/FB power was not much of a problem on NH. That > other roads' Mech people were always calling him, asking him how his > road avoided it. He wrote - in NHRRHTA SHORELINER - that the problem > was engine crews abusing the short-time ratings when climbing > grades. That the big GE traction motors could take plenty of abuse, > but the crankshaft would go. Other type units (EMD) were just the > reverse. A engineer couldn't overtorque the shaft to the breaking > point because the traction motor would burn up first. He advised > that RFEs had to watch their crews and emphasize the short time > ratings (overload) MUST be obeyed! > Interesting comment, as the early EMD traction motors were derived from & very similar to GE traction motors. I've always heard it was Westinghouse tractionmotors that were hard to burn up (larger, more metal per traction motor, therefore longer overamperage rating). Of course, I could be misinformed... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] BAR Geeps X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/15/04 4:59:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > From: "Al Buchan" > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps > > Re: Brian's - My research indicates they stayed pretty close to the > docks. > > The BAR GP's were originally leased to work the Erie Docks during the > ore season. They eventually migrated to Cleveland. I really don't know > if they ever made it out on the "high iron." Will be interested to see > photos. > > Al > At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. Since I've always heard they were equipped to PRR specs, my assumption has always been that when on the property they went into the general freight pool with the other GP9's -- of course, the PRR GP9's were not in the Enola "system-wide" pool as late as 1966 or 1974. OTOH, if assigned to mineral service, as on the Cleveland Division, they did get around on occasion. So did the big Alcos, especially during the miners vacation each July. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] BAR Geeps X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/15/04 4:59:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > From: "Al Buchan" > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps > > Re: Brian's - My research indicates they stayed pretty close to the > docks. > > The BAR GP's were originally leased to work the Erie Docks during the > ore season. They eventually migrated to Cleveland. I really don't know > if they ever made it out on the "high iron." Will be interested to see > photos. > > Al > At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. Since I've always heard they were equipped to PRR specs, my assumption has always been that when on the property they went into the general freight pool with the other GP9's -- of course, the PRR GP9's were not in the Enola "system-wide" pool as late as 1966 or 1974. OTOH, if assigned to mineral service, as on the Cleveland Division, they did get around on occasion. So did the big Alcos, especially during the miners vacation each July. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] H-10-44 assignments X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/14/04 2:45:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > The H-10-44s were all Lines West, mostly places like Columbus, Cincy, > Chicago and the like. The like definitely including Xenia, and Dayton. Also, Louisville/Jeffersonville, which makes one wonder about Columbus IN, Indianapolis, etc. One clue -- I've never seen pix of an H-10-44 in Madison, North Madison, nor North Vernon IN (these are three points on the PRR's Madison Branch out of Columbus IN, but then the Madison Branch had its own SD7's). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Layout room paint X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 5/29/04 1:11:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:03 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > and/or Tuscan Red? > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > use black. > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? I'm toying with dark building tint for the fascia. Dirt brown, one might say. But then my control panels are a lively green. I'm tempted to spray the ceiling black despite all advice not to. The alternative (a finished drop ceiling, giving up headroom, airspace, and access to all wiring, plumbing, etc) does not appeal to me. I like the theatre/restaurant effect. BTW, if that's a panel door you're referring to, paint the panels light and the rails dark tint -- nothing succeeds like the prototype. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR track gauge redux Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:15:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] InterMountain / BCW B60b Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Pennsy B60b cars (PENNSYLVANIA letterboard version) being built-up by Bethlehem Car Works via InterMountain are now sold out at InterMountain. So if you were planning to see them at your local dealer before committing, you better consider "Plan B"! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:28:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BAR Geeps X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/19/04 6:34:53 AM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << At least one was included in a mixed-bag 7 unit consist near Xenia in 1966 or later (see page 17 of The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati). Also, I chased the same two BAR units back and forth across the Middle Division for three days in the early 1970's. I can only suppose they were ping-ponging between Conway and Enola. >> My wife and I went to the wedding of one of her room mates, propably in 1965 or 1966 (because I was still with the Pennsy), in Canton, Ohio. I remember seeing two BAR units and seem to remember them in a yard area. They stuck in my mind because they were purple and yellow and were bright and polished, just as if they had come directly from the new engine show room. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: [MerchServ] Atlas / InterMountain / Morning Sun Books / Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:31:37 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:52:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout room paint X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rick, Stay away from the black ceiling. You will have one "black hole" to suck up all of the room light that should be reflected (or refracted) on to the layout. One of our round robin group tried painting the joists, and pipe and duct work only to find is severely darkened the room. The rework took four coats of sprayed on white paint to cover the flat black. After which, a coat of very light gray was applied as the white had the same effect in the opposite direction, too light. The light gray also has the quality of being neutral thus not offsetting the colors on the layout. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:20:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in > that > period. <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:19:51 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Traction motor abuse... Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com RickTipton@aol.com writes: >Interesting comment, as the early EMD traction motors were derived from & very similar to GE traction motors. �I've always heard it was Westinghouse tractionmotors that were hard to burn up (larger, more metal per traction motor, therefore longer overamperage rating). >Of course, I could be misinformed... >Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Rick, You are correct about the Westnghouse traction motors, but when ALCo introduced the GE 752's they were likely a match for the Westinghouse. One issue was the need to cool them and that is why you see the vents on the FA1/2 and the PA's. They also appeared on the B&O FA's and the Erie/Lacamoney PA's (louvers on the side of the nose). The crank shaft failures were an unreleated issue from what I have read, explain to me why they went down on the RS2/3's. Rick I know that you have the old issues of Mainline form the 80's and if you do re-read the RS-2/3 development articles and you will fine some of the crankshaft issues there. Also why the PRR classed their D&H purchased RS-2s the way they did as they were the tail end of the RS-2 production, as ALCo decided to get the fuel tank from under the floor of the RS-2 and away from the traction motors on the rear truck. Also I can't thank Bill Volmer enough for a contact he gave me to a guy in Iowa that worked for ALCo while I was researching my PA article for Mainline Modeler as he was a great insight to ALCo of the 50's. He filledin a lot of gaps for me in my rersearch. ALso read the FA1/2 articles they are of great value. BTW, Stu said he was headed to St. Louis for the Prototype Modelers meet are you planning to be there. Also while reorganizing the garage over the weekend I stumbled across a Trains Magazne from April of '46 (I believe it was) that had an interesting article on the EMD F-3 which they mentions nothing on the F-2's but regard this unit as an upgraded FT. A test bed for the new carbody changes of the F-3... Intersting how times changes all... History, very interesting. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:20:22 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard" In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in > that > period. <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] N scale PRR Class F1 Mogul Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:11:13 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Lists, I have just completed my PRR F1 Mogul built from an MDC Roundhouse = 2-6-0. I know the driver spacing is incorrect, but other than that, it = came out pretty darn close - at least you can tell what it's supposed to = represent! To have a look, go to: = http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/afi.sized.jpg There are = other shots at "aff" through "afk". This one required more modifications to the shell than the H3 2-8-0's = from the MDC Consolidations. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] G22c Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:06:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com According to the Keystone VIII #3, G22c conversions around 1960 with the extension of the sides to 7'-4' for use in scrap service. Eldon Gatwood's article in TKM #6 and the instructions to Westerfield G22 kits state this also. I realize they both may have used the Keystone article as a source. Page 8 of the Keystone mentioned above contains 2 photo's of cars converted to this service. The upper picture shows a beat up CK car with an ACI label clearly putting in into the mid-60's at earliest. It's the lower picture that has me scratching my head. It appears to be a builders picture of one of the scrap conversion cars. However the reweigh date in March 1940 and the repack date is ?-?-39. Was this car a one-off conversion not repeated until the 60's, or may have there been others running around? It's interesting to note the structure of the extension looks similar on the two cars even though they are 20+ years apart. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:00:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Skip the use of the Walthers or Atlas crossover. Narrow gauge slipped my mind. Try building one at the work bench. Guaranteed you will surprise yourself. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:55:22 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Cafe Coach Question Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone have any information on the train assignment(s) of Cafe Coach (PC70br) #1112? A friend recently received a slide of the car stored in Northumberland in Jun. 1965, apparently awaiting conversion to work train service or scrapping. By that time it had received a "round roof." Reply off-list to vck@andrew.cmu.edu Thanks, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] B60b Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:44:08 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Saw on the Mercandise Service page that they are sold out so I went to Walthers and they had this description. This car was more versatile than I thought! (Ad shows a B60b) Pennsylvania Railroad Walthers Part # 85-5000 HO scale, $59.95, not currently in stock at Walthers, Expected: TBA n partnership with Centralia Car Shops, these new passenger cars are ready-to-run versions of the Pennsylvania Railroads P85bR 44-seat coaches. These detailed cars feature diecast metal trucks with 46 metal wheels, complete underbody detail, individual wire handrails, aluminum window trim and Kadee couplers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] B60b Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:44:08 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Saw on the Mercandise Service page that they are sold out so I went to Walthers and they had this description. This car was more versatile than I thought! (Ad shows a B60b) Pennsylvania Railroad Walthers Part # 85-5000 HO scale, $59.95, not currently in stock at Walthers, Expected: TBA n partnership with Centralia Car Shops, these new passenger cars are ready-to-run versions of the Pennsylvania Railroads P85bR 44-seat coaches. These detailed cars feature diecast metal trucks with 46 metal wheels, complete underbody detail, individual wire handrails, aluminum window trim and Kadee couplers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Hotbox Detector Locations Anyone have an interest in the locations of Hotbox Detectors? I have a booklet issued around 1966, listing location of hotbox, and broken flange detectors. I thought about putting this information on the website but the pages are pretty faded and each region comes with a map with the locations marked on it. If there is any interest in certain locations, email me and I can give you what I have. As of 1966, the Chicago Division had no hotbox or broken flange detectors. Randy www.prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9D6E970C-DA70-11D8-AAD6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with "List of Reportable Locations". Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they utilized rail service or not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:17:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <9D6E970C-DA70-11D8-AAD6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with "List of Reportable Locations". Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they utilized rail service or not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:42 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Hotbox Detector Locations Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:11 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps Message-Id: <81D89CDF-DA74-11D8-B9C7-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "PRR-TALK TALK''" From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Interesting load Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:44:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I found an interesting photograph of a Russian export 2-8-0 steam engine on PRR F30A 474099 on page 82 of "The United States Military Railway Service, America's Soldier-Railroaders in WWII", by Don DeNevi and Bob Hall (ISBN 1-55046-021-8). In the background is a car (GS gon?) laden with coal with only a portion of its lettering, "ERN PA" (sans serif style), visible. The flat appears to have a reweigh date of 6-42. Given that flats traveled far more than GS gons full of coal, I wonder if this photograph was taken on the left coast of a locomotive preparing to head to Vladivostok via the Pacific? The tender is presumably on another flat car out of the picture. BTW, in case you're feeling like investing in flat cat loads, the locomotive appears to be very close to the DJH (HO) kit. http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/acatalog/ DJH_Model_Locomotive_American_HO_Scale_Kits__76.html Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:04:06 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35CE5F4@HERZOGMGMT> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 17:51:40.0082 (UTC) FILETIME=[35CFA120:01C46E82] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The BAR Geeps were only on the property 6 months per year so you have to look at the date of the sheets. In the early years they were assigned to Erie and later years to Cleveland 55th St. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Randy Williamson Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:25 PM To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps When I look at the locomotive assignment sheets I have, the BAR Geeps are not even listed. They list other units (i.e. P&WV AS616) but not the Geeps. Randy http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:07:41 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:11 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] BAR Geeps When I look at the locomotive assignment sheets I have, the BAR Geeps are not even listed. They list other units (i.e. P&WV AS616) but not the Geeps. Randy http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:24:32 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:24:32 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:35:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Tower Sheets From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <8C618D9F-DA7B-11D8-AAD6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Anyone have any tower sheets from LEMO, STATE, HARRIS, ROCKVILLE, BANKS, or VIEW from 1954? I'd like to review one or more, to determine power assignments on various trains, as well as train sizes. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:44:02 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West Bob, Thanks for tracking down Chris' exposition of this. I knew there had to be= a=20 better account of this than my memory that PRR's Ohio lines were wider than= =20 56.5" gauge. Since Chris Baer's notes like this are impeccably researched,= we=20 can all relax, knowing that we have found the authoritative answer. Now I'm still looking for a reliable account of those lines in northern=20 Kentucky which were other than 5' (southern) gauge, and when the regaugings= in=20 Kentucky took place. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 In a message dated 7/20/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR track gauge redux > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) >=20 > The following is copied from a post Chris Baer made to the > 19thCenturyLimited Yahoo group back in June of 2001: >=20 > According to minutes and annual reports, the PRR was 4'8-1/2" as > built. The O&P/Fort Wayne was 4'10". The Steubenville &Indiana was > originally planned as standard gauge, but changed to 4'10" when the > Steubenville bridge was delayed and it became clear they would have > to > connect with the Cleveland &Pittsburgh. At Pittsburgh, the PRR came > in on one side of the second depot (ca. 1858) and the O&P on the > other. The Camden &Amboy system of roads in N.J. was also 4'10". > Wide-tread wheels were used from Lines West to east starting ca. > 1860. The Camden &Amboy adopted wheels that moved on the axle ca. > 1862 in order to be able to run through cars between Jersey City and > Washington. >=20 > In 1868, the PRR changed its standard to 4'9", and its principal > western affiliates changed to 4'9-1/2" in 1868-69. In 1872, the > United N.J. RR. changed in two steps to 4'9-1/2" and then to 4'9". > The West Jersey RR system did the same in 1873. In 1878, the Grand > Rapids &Indiana changed from 4'9-1/4" to 4'9". Around 1880, 4'9" > became the PRR standard for both Lines East and Lines West. The > Camden &Atlantic RR converted from 4'9" to 4'8-1/2" in 1890, and in > Aug. 1892, the PRR established 4'8-1/2" as the system standard. >=20 > End of copied material. >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob Also, Lee Rainey wrote: Subj: Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard"=A0=20=20=20 Date: 7/19/04 8:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time=20=20=20=20 From: LeeRainey=20=20=20 To: RickTipton, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, lnrr@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.co= m,=20 PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20=20 =20=20=20=20 In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in=20 > that=20 > period.=A0=20 <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron=A0= =20 > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to= =20 > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->=20 Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~->=20 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remember= ing Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to =3D PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com=20 Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ =20 !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:44:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, Thanks for tracking down Chris' exposition of this. I knew there had to be=20= a=20 better account of this than my memory that PRR's Ohio lines were wider than=20 56.5" gauge. Since Chris Baer's notes like this are impeccably researched,=20= we=20 can all relax, knowing that we have found the authoritative answer. Now I'm still looking for a reliable account of those lines in northern=20 Kentucky which were other than 5' (southern) gauge, and when the regaugings=20= in=20 Kentucky took place. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 In a message dated 7/20/04 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR track gauge redux > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) >=20 > The following is copied from a post Chris Baer made to the > 19thCenturyLimited Yahoo group back in June of 2001: >=20 > According to minutes and annual reports, the PRR was 4'8-1/2" as > built. The O&P/Fort Wayne was 4'10". The Steubenville &Indiana was > originally planned as standard gauge, but changed to 4'10" when the > Steubenville bridge was delayed and it became clear they would have > to > connect with the Cleveland &Pittsburgh. At Pittsburgh, the PRR came > in on one side of the second depot (ca. 1858) and the O&P on the > other. The Camden &Amboy system of roads in N.J. was also 4'10". > Wide-tread wheels were used from Lines West to east starting ca. > 1860. The Camden &Amboy adopted wheels that moved on the axle ca. > 1862 in order to be able to run through cars between Jersey City and > Washington. >=20 > In 1868, the PRR changed its standard to 4'9", and its principal > western affiliates changed to 4'9-1/2" in 1868-69. In 1872, the > United N.J. RR. changed in two steps to 4'9-1/2" and then to 4'9". > The West Jersey RR system did the same in 1873. In 1878, the Grand > Rapids &Indiana changed from 4'9-1/4" to 4'9". Around 1880, 4'9" > became the PRR standard for both Lines East and Lines West. The > Camden &Atlantic RR converted from 4'9" to 4'8-1/2" in 1890, and in > Aug. 1892, the PRR established 4'8-1/2" as the system standard. >=20 > End of copied material. >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob Also, Lee Rainey wrote: Subj: Re: [PRR] Gauges "near standard"=A0 =20 Date: 7/19/04 8:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time =20 From: LeeRainey =20 To: RickTipton, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, lnrr@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com= ,=20 PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com =20 =20 In a message dated 7/19/2004 7:34:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 RickTipton@aol.com writes: > If I'm not mistaken, the actual standard track gauge in Ohio was 4-9 in=20 > that=20 > period.=A0=20 <<< You are mistaken. The legal Ohio gauge (as in NJ) was 4-10. The Iron=A0=20 > Railroad in the Hanging Rock region was probably the last line in Ohio to=20 > use this -- keeping the gauge till well after the Civil War. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:34:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/20/2004 9:04:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, RDG2124@aol.com writes: > Another suggestion, buy an Atlas or Walthers code 83 crossover then adapt > the code 55 to the code 83 on the desired route. The crossover rails of the > > narrow gauge route could be shortened to lessen the amount of code 83 > showing. > My favorite method of adapting one height of rail to another is to take a > cutoff disk across the middle, top of a rail joiner of the larger code rail > then > flatten the tops on one half of the joiner. Next shim or file the flattened > > side so that the smaller rail fits on top of it with the railhead flush with > > that of the larger rail. Then solder the entire thing together. > > Will the narrow gauge line be functional or just for show? > > BTW, it wasn't uncommon for crossovers to be made of one weight of rail > with the cross line adapting its rail to the larger rail to make the > crossing > then returning to the lighter rail. > Right. My recommendation would be to start with a standard gauge code 83 crossover of the correct angle, narrow one route, and attach the code 55 to that in the fashion described above. I built a crossover this way for Jim Foster and it has given 15 years of good service. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:50:44 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 Grabs Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Appologies if this has been mentioned before, but I'm impressed with the fact that the kits include two complete sets. I'm sure this is to allow for breakage, but with care or state of the art nippers that should be a minimal or non-existant problem. I had a 100% non-breakage rate and only lost one end sill grab to low earth orbit during construction of my first kit. What this adds up to is carry-over use of the left-overs to other Bowser cabin kits. The side grabs worked well on the N5b kit I just finished, for example, and the cupola corner grabs look like they'll work on the N5c. I'm sure that the end sill grabs are a universal fit for all three Bowser cabin kits. The only apparent problem is that the body end grabs appear to be out-size for all but the N8. At any rate, being able to use my left-overs from N8 kits will represent significant savings in time (and cursing) in hand-bending wire grabs for those N5b's and N5c's still in the boxes. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:52:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, That is the List of Reportable Locations (Stations-yards-sidings) For use in Car Movement Reporting System CT4001 6-1-64 Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings > Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of > the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. > > I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- > a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall > exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with > "List of Reportable Locations". > > Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? > > In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a > few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other > businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they > utilized rail service or not. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:04:04 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Might I suggest that you have a look at the website of Laurie Green (= http://www.lauriegreen.net ) He has a couple of excellent articles on hand laying of track and turnouts While he isnt a PRR person, I think he knows what he's talking about. He is an NMRA MMR (Master Model Railroader) and an award winning narrow= guage model maker. Cheers from down under. Mick *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 18/07/2004 at 5:28 PM George Rudy did electronicly scribble: >First off, thanks to everyone who replied to my question on water pans. I >have enough info now that I think I can move forward with that project. > >Now another problem. I recently bought a copy of a book titled "Bells and >Whistles in old Perry". It's great reading covering the Newport &= Sherman's >Valley that I'm modeling. I did not know it until now that the PRR spur to >the freight transfer tracks in Newport actually crossed the narrow gauge >track on the N&SV. I doupt I will ever find a ready made crossover of such >so hand building will be needed. Problem is I have never hand laid track >much less make a crossover. Is there anyone out there willing to make one >for me? Of corse I'm willing to pay. The HO standard gauge track is code= 83 >and the HOn3 track is code 55. The crossover would need to be about 30 >degrees. Anybody willing? >Thanks, >George Rudy >New Bloomfield, Pa. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from George Rudy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] SOLVED - Trestle Over Herr Street (Harrisburg) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:45:36 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com A while back I was trying to figure out what some remaining trestle piers were for, on either side of the Herr Street underpass in Harrisburg. The valuation map shows a track leading up to the piers, but stopping at Herr Street (east side). The Sanborn maps I had didn't shed any light either. And Harrisburg locals were at a loss. You can view the remnants at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ . Search on Keyword = "Herr Street". Go to the third page of results for 8 or so shots. Yesterday I visited the Pennsylvania State Library. Since the Sanborn's are electronic, quick access, and I was already into them, I brought up the 1929 series for the area... Bingo!!! The trestle fed the coal wharf at Enginehouse #1, which had been about two more blocks west along 7th Street. They would back coal hoppers down from the yard, into the Swift & Co. area, do a switchback, and head up the trestle, cross over the Herr Street underpass, and continue about two more blocks before reaching the coal wharf at the entrance/exit of the loco facility. By the way, the 1929 version of this area would make it REALLY neat for modeling! Anyway, now that I knew what the track was, I looked where more of you would have immediate access to... "Triumph II". On page 227 you will find a 1929 track diagram that shows it. On the inside back cover is a 1942 track diagram and it is gone. The new Maclay Street loco facility was built in 1937-38, so the old Enginehouse #1 would have been removed around that time and the wharf with it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:49:53 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading Chris, I apologize -- I did not realize I was rehashing this subject. Certainly I'm glad to see your answer (below), and also the quote of your previous, detailed description (courtesy of Greg Martin and quoted in an earlier previous posting). The idea of "compromise gauge" cars is scary -- I've always read that it was a bit chancy. OTOH, it's interesting to think of the planning that went into all the PRR system gauge reductions (apparently carried off a half inch at a time) until 56.5" was reached. It really says something about the interchange strength of the PRR that most southern roads' regauging circa 1886 was to 4'9", to match Pennsy's gauge at the time... In a message dated 7/19/04 2:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:33:53 -0400 > From: "Chris Baer" > Subject: RE: Gauges "near standard" > > Rick, > > There has been a discussion of this either on this list or the PRRT&HS > discussion forum, perhaps over a year ago. I do not have all the information at > hand, but at a very early date, the PRR adopted a 4'-9" gauge, which was its > standard through the 19th century. The Lines West lines in Ohio (plus the > Central Ohio and a number of others) were so-called "Ohio Gauge" of 4'10", as > were the lines of the Camden &Amboy and its affiliated lines (aka "New Jersey > Gauge"). From about 1860, cars in through service used so-called compromise > trucks with a wide tread to negotiate both gauges. The PRR gradually narrowed > its Lines West and Jersey lines soon after acquiring them during the 1870s. > Some of the dates are recorded in annual reports and minutes, and I posted > them during the original discussion. > > It may be of interest that when the southern railroads were changed from > 5'-0" gauge in 1886, they adopted the PRR standard of 4'-9" because of the > importance of interchange with the PRR. > > The narrowing from 4'-9" to 4'-8-1/2" is much more poorly documented. Ca. > 1900, the PRR was actually using both gauges, varying between freight and > passenger main tracks and between straightaway and curves. > > Chris Baer > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:49:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Chris, I apologize -- I did not realize I was rehashing this subject. Certainly I'm glad to see your answer (below), and also the quote of your previous, detailed description (courtesy of Greg Martin and quoted in an earlier previous posting). The idea of "compromise gauge" cars is scary -- I've always read that it was a bit chancy. OTOH, it's interesting to think of the planning that went into all the PRR system gauge reductions (apparently carried off a half inch at a time) until 56.5" was reached. It really says something about the interchange strength of the PRR that most southern roads' regauging circa 1886 was to 4'9", to match Pennsy's gauge at the time... In a message dated 7/19/04 2:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:33:53 -0400 > From: "Chris Baer" > Subject: RE: Gauges "near standard" > > Rick, > > There has been a discussion of this either on this list or the PRRT&HS > discussion forum, perhaps over a year ago. I do not have all the information at > hand, but at a very early date, the PRR adopted a 4'-9" gauge, which was its > standard through the 19th century. The Lines West lines in Ohio (plus the > Central Ohio and a number of others) were so-called "Ohio Gauge" of 4'10", as > were the lines of the Camden &Amboy and its affiliated lines (aka "New Jersey > Gauge"). From about 1860, cars in through service used so-called compromise > trucks with a wide tread to negotiate both gauges. The PRR gradually narrowed > its Lines West and Jersey lines soon after acquiring them during the 1870s. > Some of the dates are recorded in annual reports and minutes, and I posted > them during the original discussion. > > It may be of interest that when the southern railroads were changed from > 5'-0" gauge in 1886, they adopted the PRR standard of 4'-9" because of the > importance of interchange with the PRR. > > The narrowing from 4'-9" to 4'-8-1/2" is much more poorly documented. Ca. > 1900, the PRR was actually using both gauges, varying between freight and > passenger main tracks and between straightaway and curves. > > Chris Baer > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: Frederick Ripley Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: Frederick Ripley From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] PRR F-Units Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:58:43 -0700 From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:14:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello List. Yes, THE BROADWAYS 2 lounge cars were THE HARBOR COVE and HARBOR REST. The Broadway required only two sets of equipment and these cars , built for the 1948-49 BROADWAY were used exclusively. Actually the cars were originally built with a barber shop and secretary,s room along with I belive 3 double bedrooms and a phone. Sometime in the early fifties the cars were converted to 5 double bedroom cars but still retaining the phone. On occasion when one or possible both of these cars required shopping a 6dbl bedroom car from the "Falls" pool would sub. Yes, The cars on the GENERAL were 1948-49 era FALLS cars. The diner lounges were from the vast fleet of PENNSY diners. When meals were not being served the cars were open to passengers to use as a lounge. Hope this helps Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:48:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] For the Harrisburgers... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <29B6DA39-DB3E-11D8-85D6-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com As many of you know, I am attempting to model Harrisburg with a very high (okay, sick) degree of accuracy, for 1954. I am specifically recreating a 7/10 mile long stretch of the right-of-way from Paxton Street to Herr Street. For those that are interested, I have updated the web pages pertaining to this stretch. The URL is... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/harrisburg/ The process thus far has been: 1. Valuation maps, which provide "blueprints" for the trackwork, but generally no real indication of which industry was where, etc. 2. CT1000E, which provides list of online customers from 1945, noted at 1/10 mile increments. Certain landmarks are noted at specific mileposts, so it can be estimated the general area of these customers, but not which side of the RoW they are on. 3. Sanborn maps, which provide property lines for non-railroad structures, and indicate address numbers on streets. The rail detail is generally not that good. I've received 1956 maps with some changes from the 1949-ish maps referenced, but they are not shown yet. 4. Polk City Directory, which cross references street/address numbers to business names... finally connecting the CT1000 entries with physical locations! The CT1000 was last printed in 1945, while the Polk data is current at 1954. There are differences, and many of the changes are noted on the web pages. My next task is acquiring photos of the structures involved. I have some, but they are few and far between. I have a trip to the Pennsylvania State Archives planned, as there is a specific collection that should provide many aerial photos of this area from 1952-ish. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:09:01 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Subject: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:25:23 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, The Harbor series cars used on the "Broadway" were=20 actually 6-section/lounge cars(PS6L). These were=20 two-of-akind and used specifically for this service. On=20 occasion, when one or both were being shopped a=20 5-section/lounge (PS5L) was substituted. This practice was=20 like that doen with the Mountain and Tower View (POS21),=20 they could be substituted with a President series=20 car(POS211a), or other POS class car. Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. Frederick Ripley wrote: Hello All, I am looking at PRR 4/24/66 PTT, and have a couple of=20 questions about lounge cars on Chicago trains: (1) The "Broadway" still included a lounge (bar), which=20 also had 5 double bedrooms; these were "Harbor Cove" and "Harbor Rest",=20 correct? (2) The "General" carried a lounge (bar) with 6 double=20 bdrms; would this have been one of the "Falls"-series cars? (3) The secondary trains ("Penn. Ltd.", "Admiral",=20 "Manhattan Ltd") all carried a diner (lounge). What cars covered this=20 service? Thanks for any info, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:57:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR obs. (was lounge cars) From: Frederick Ripley From: GFPat420@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:40:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR obs. (was lounge cars) X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Samuel Rae ended up at the Indiana Railway Museum in the 1970s. I guess it is still around someplace in Indiana. At least one more car was saved, and is in Texas. There may be a third car out west, as well. At least one "Colonial" car was saved and is in charter service out of LA, and a couple of the "Falls" cars are on the East coast. I was looking at a photo I took of one of the Harbor Cove, in the scrap line, back in May of '72. Amtrak for the most part, didn't want any part of Pullman-built carbon steel PRR cars and the Penn Central unloaded them very quickly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: fjr@mchsi.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:31:58 -0400 To: John Frantz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com John: Your information is backwards (at least for the majority of time). The Harbor Cove and Harbor Rest, assigned to the Broadway Limited, were 5 Double Bedroom-Lounge cars, class PS5LA, built to plan 4141. The PS6L cars were 6 Double Bedroom-Lounge cars and were the FALLS series. The PS6L's were used as subs for the PS5LA's, when so needed. Worth noting that there were two other Harbor cars... Harbor Springs and Harbor Point. These were class PS5L, built to plan 4077A. As of 1954 they were assigned to The Akronite. On Jul 21, 2004, at 9:25 PM, John Frantz wrote: > The Harbor series cars used on the "Broadway" were actually > 6-section/lounge cars(PS6L). These were two-of-akind and used > specifically for this service. On occasion, when one or both were > being shopped a 5-section/lounge (PS5L) was substituted. This practice > was like that doen with the Mountain and Tower View (POS21), they > could be substituted with a President series car(POS211a), or other > POS class car. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:29:01 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West In a message dated 7/21/04 8:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CBuccol writes: > Accoring to Maury Klein's L&N history, the early LC&L segements were built > to 5' gauge as was the Short Line but were as changed to standard on August > 13, 1871, primarily to make it necessary to "break bulk" at Louisville due to > this gauge difference. Kincaird Herr's company history indicates that the > LC&L and the Pennsy had a gauge of 4' 9" pre-dating the L&N system-wide change > over to standard gauge in May, 1886. Thus it appears that the Short Line's > rails needed only a 1/2 inch adjustment, if any at all, when the change to > Standard Gauge was made. > cfb It's not a complete shock that the LC&L and the Pennsy would have the same gauge, especially since they shared terminal facilities in Cincinnati after 1872. Note to all: do be careful about reading descriptions such as "change over to standard gauge" re the 1880's regaugings from 5 feet. For many years, I assumed this meant to the B&O gauge (4'8.5"). Apparently in many/most cases in the south (per Chris Baer and other sources now), this actually meant changing to 4'9" (Pennsy's gauge at the time). As Chris Baer points out, the last half inch happened sometime later, and to much less publicity. Also, as Charlie Buccola reminded me in a meeting today, changing gauge on cars was a simple matter. The most expensive impact on changing gauge was adapting locomotives on-hand to the new gauge. Whether you were the Ohio & Mississippi (faced with reducing gauge from Erie-compatible 6 foot), or an L&N (going down from 5') or for that matter a Pennsy affiliate in Ohio (going down from 4'10"), you were likely to have some power that just couldn't be adapted, and had to be "sold down the river" to wherever its gauge was still in use. The alternative was scrapping. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Question X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/21/04 1:03:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WAMMP236 writes: > My Apologies, > trying to find a contact person for PRR talk. > thanks > > Bill Ah -- you're looking for Jerry Britton at . Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:29:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Versions of "standard gauge" on PRR and PRR Lines West X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/21/04 8:39:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CBuccol writes: > Accoring to Maury Klein's L&N history, the early LC&L segements were built > to 5' gauge as was the Short Line but were as changed to standard on August > 13, 1871, primarily to make it necessary to "break bulk" at Louisville due to > this gauge difference. Kincaird Herr's company history indicates that the > LC&L and the Pennsy had a gauge of 4' 9" pre-dating the L&N system-wide change > over to standard gauge in May, 1886. Thus it appears that the Short Line's > rails needed only a 1/2 inch adjustment, if any at all, when the change to > Standard Gauge was made. > cfb It's not a complete shock that the LC&L and the Pennsy would have the same gauge, especially since they shared terminal facilities in Cincinnati after 1872. Note to all: do be careful about reading descriptions such as "change over to standard gauge" re the 1880's regaugings from 5 feet. For many years, I assumed this meant to the B&O gauge (4'8.5"). Apparently in many/most cases in the south (per Chris Baer and other sources now), this actually meant changing to 4'9" (Pennsy's gauge at the time). As Chris Baer points out, the last half inch happened sometime later, and to much less publicity. Also, as Charlie Buccola reminded me in a meeting today, changing gauge on cars was a simple matter. The most expensive impact on changing gauge was adapting locomotives on-hand to the new gauge. Whether you were the Ohio & Mississippi (faced with reducing gauge from Erie-compatible 6 foot), or an L&N (going down from 5') or for that matter a Pennsy affiliate in Ohio (going down from 4'10"), you were likely to have some power that just couldn't be adapted, and had to be "sold down the river" to wherever its gauge was still in use. The alternative was scrapping. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:44:05 -0400 From: WAMMP236@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The Harbor Cars were 5 DOUBLE BEDROOM CARS not 6 Section The fill in cars were 6 Double Bedroom cars from the FALLS pool not 5 section Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:15:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series From: Frederick Ripley From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:22:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:22:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com List, Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullmans Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:14:51 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:48:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullmans X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/22/2004 5:22:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: The Branchline Pullman that is out now would be seen on what trains in the 55-57 period? What about the ones coming out soon? Thanks, Chris Chany The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, and 36. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:57:49 -0500 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Branchline Pullmans Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich wrote: > >The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, and 36. > Chris--There is more. Go to Jerry's Keystone Crossings. Lots of info in Passenger Ops, 24 Hours at Harrisburg in Sep 1954. Try http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.html Look for 574 and 575 in the Second and Third Tricks. Two 8-1-2 (or 8-2-1)Pullmans from train 1 from New York to train 575 to Erie and Buffalo. Going the other way, they get added to train 20. If you look at train 1 at 10:12 pm (Second Trick), it shows the names of the cars, which unfortunately are not the names offered on the Branchline cars. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:57:49 -0500 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Branchline Pullmans Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rich wrote: > >The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, and 36. > Chris--There is more. Go to Jerry's Keystone Crossings. Lots of info in Passenger Ops, 24 Hours at Harrisburg in Sep 1954. Try http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.html Look for 574 and 575 in the Second and Third Tricks. Two 8-1-2 (or 8-2-1)Pullmans from train 1 from New York to train 575 to Erie and Buffalo. Going the other way, they get added to train 20. If you look at train 1 at 10:12 pm (Second Trick), it shows the names of the cars, which unfortunately are not the names offered on the Branchline cars. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:15:24 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary, Beaver Falls #8734 PS 12-1 2410 3813 Pullman PRR Red; Pull. Std. (12/20/18); PRR Red (4/9/24); MDD4973G (nd) 10/3/10 New 1910; 1910A 6/24/36) Sold To PRR LTP 12/31/48 12/10/52 1x28.5"; 1x16 (nd); 2x8 (4/5/29); 2x8 New style (6/24/36) 3T 1 pt Ice 6/24/36 Gothic 246; RG Steel plates (1/12/22) PM 2x16; UC 2x16 (nd) Beaver Falls Inn #8244 PS 21b 9513 9667 Budd PRR Red 2/12/49 New 41-NP-11 Sold To PRR LTP 2/12/49 4/4/63 3x15 & 1x12 4T 2 pt EM N/A HSCE D-22-BR 4x12 Converted to Coach-Bar-Lnge P85L# , 10/63. Bought from Pullman 1946. >From Tom Madden's List. Regards, Eddie Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was > told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the > years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger > Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. > Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR 21 Roomettes Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:39:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I need to model a few of these cars. Does anyone happen to know which Inn series cars were assigned to train 580/581 in 1957 or around that time. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Set Up Running Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:02:55 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Two weeks ago I had the opportunity to poke around the Elmira br between = Canton and Trout Run. PRR fan John Swartz lives in Canton with the old = roadbed behind his house. We were particularly looking for the S&NY = connection at Marshhill Jct. , the coalmines around Ralston and the = Grays Run line. As we turned around just above the S&NY r-o-w I spotted a tiny cemetery = and commented that we should get a gravestone date and use the location = as a reference point later when checking the old topos online. John raced back to his van for his camera and asked if I recognized the = name on a particular stone. I stated that it indeed was familiar. He = said this was the Oscar Orr from the book, Set Up Running. Looking = around I then noticed another Orr stone. It was John Orr's, the writer. He died in 2001,the same year as his = book was published. After reading the preface we are lucky to have it = at all ,only due to his perseverence. =20 I wonder if he lived long enough to see the book go on sale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Terraserver Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:11:21 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was trying to look up a portion of Philadelphia and have discovered there are two Terrservers on the internet now. One is terraserver.com that only allows very limited magnification and is basically useless without a large fee. The old familiar Terraserver is terraserver.microsoft.com and still allows fairly high resoloution and magnification. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Terraserver Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:11:21 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I was trying to look up a portion of Philadelphia and have discovered there are two Terrservers on the internet now. One is terraserver.com that only allows very limited magnification and is basically useless without a large fee. The old familiar Terraserver is terraserver.microsoft.com and still allows fairly high resoloution and magnification. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Edmund Burbage" Subject: [PRR] question Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:57:27 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com My computer has been down, have there been any PRR info sent by anyone = recently? I haven't received any and I was signed in and have gotten = them until my crash recently. Would appreciate any reply to check my sign in on this URL. leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:29:06 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Gauge and the PRR In a message dated 7/22/04 3:37:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:13 -0400 > From: rbregler@netscape.net > Subject: Re: Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading > > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 rearends > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > > Dick Bregler > Maybe because it's too good (and too often repeated as gospel) to be true or relevant or at all interesting. Periodially, some archeologist with a tape measure will pronounce that the Babylonians or the Sumerians or the Medes used this gauge even earlier. Again, it's possible -- but have warhorses' hindquarters not changed at all in the last 4000 years? And what about draft animals (much larger)? Although 56.5" may be systematic or on the other hand a totally arbitrary gauge does not detract from the fascinating writhing and thrashing necessary to bring US (and British) railroading to a common gauge. Having this detailed for the PRR Lines West family has been very satisfying. Thanks to all for a most interesting and informative thread... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:29:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/22/04 3:37:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:13 -0400 > From: rbregler@netscape.net > Subject: Re: Evolution of "standard gauge" in American railroading > > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 rearends > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > > Dick Bregler > Maybe because it's too good (and too often repeated as gospel) to be true or relevant or at all interesting. Periodially, some archeologist with a tape measure will pronounce that the Babylonians or the Sumerians or the Medes used this gauge even earlier. Again, it's possible -- but have warhorses' hindquarters not changed at all in the last 4000 years? And what about draft animals (much larger)? Although 56.5" may be systematic or on the other hand a totally arbitrary gauge does not detract from the fascinating writhing and thrashing necessary to bring US (and British) railroading to a common gauge. Having this detailed for the PRR Lines West family has been very satisfying. Thanks to all for a most interesting and informative thread... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:41:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com In a message dated 7/24/2004 7:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > > > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 > rearends > > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > Please refer to Professor George Hilton's book Amereican Narrow Gauge for an authoritative debunking of this myth and a review of the actual origins of the gauge, based on an article published in the American Railway Review in the 18 -- yes 18 -- 50s, when the pioneers were still around to speak for themselves. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:41:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR In a message dated 7/24/2004 7:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > > > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 > rearends > > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > Please refer to Professor George Hilton's book Amereican Narrow Gauge for an authoritative debunking of this myth and a review of the actual origins of the gauge, based on an article published in the American Railway Review in the 18 -- yes 18 -- 50s, when the pioneers were still around to speak for themselves. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:41:29 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Gauge and the PRR In a message dated 7/24/2004 7:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > List,I am really surprised that the story about Roman chariot wheel spacing > > > determined the 4' 8 1/2 " gauge of our railroads or the span of 2 > rearends > > of the horses drawing them has not popped up by now. > Please refer to Professor George Hilton's book Amereican Narrow Gauge for an authoritative debunking of this myth and a review of the actual origins of the gauge, based on an article published in the American Railway Review in the 18 -- yes 18 -- 50s, when the pioneers were still around to speak for themselves. Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:16:57 -0400 From: WAMMP236@aol.com Subject: [PRR] QUESTION? Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hello Jerry, Not qoite sure if i had asked about this before. The HORSESHOE CURVE CHAPTER RUNS EXCURSIONS on the old PRR COVE SECONDARY. ( line runs from Hollidaysburg PA to Martinsburg PA. most excursions run from the ex PRR station at ROARING SPRING and go to either Hollidaysburg or Martinsburg. Some originate at Hollidaysburg and go to Roaring Spring) Our next trip is a DINNER TRAIN from Hollidaysburg to Roaring Spring on Septenber 19th. Could we put something on PRR talk about it? Thanks Bill Mangiacarne Treasurer Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Assembling the Branchline 8-1-2s From: "Edmund Burbage" Subject: [PRR] request Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:45:45 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Would you please reinstall me on the Mail List. My Computer still isn't = receiving any mail from PRR-Talk Lee Burbage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids From: Frederick Ripley Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids From: Frederick Ripley From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:26:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Sciota Rapid and Sturgeon Rapids were slab sided and painted Tuscan, Sciota Rapids is at the RRMPA. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 12:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids > Hello All, > > Thanks again to all who contributed info to my question about PRR lounge > cars. Now I have a question about a sleeper, the 10-6 Budd-built "Scioto > Rapids". I have the Rivarossi model of this car which is painted in a > "Congressional"-like, mostly stainless-steel scheme. I assume this is > incorrect- other than the various through cars (AT&SF, Cal. Zephyr, MP, > etc.) or the rebuilt "Elberton", I have never seen photos of PRR postwar > sleepers in colors other than tuscan. Anyone know for sure how > "Scioto Rapids" was painted? > > Thanks, Fred > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:40:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Scioto Rapids From: Frederick Ripley From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia picture inquiry Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:53:26 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Does anyone know of any internet sources for pictures of the main between N. Philadelphia Station and Shore Tower in the late 50's or ear;y 60's? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] C&N CAB SIGNALS Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:08:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The PRR used cab signals on the Panhandle between Pittsburgh and Newark, Ohio. They had trackage rights over the B&O to Columbus. The B&O provided the track, dispatching (in Newark) and signalling (PRR position lights), but did the B&O also have PRR cab signals? Sid ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:51:30 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, Scioto Rapids #8451 PS 10-6b 9503 9662 Budd PRR Red D5237A; D5237F (nd) (Smooth (slab) sides) Regards, Eddie Frederick Ripley wrote: > Now I have a question about a sleeper, the 10-6 Budd-built "Scioto > Rapids". I have the Rivarossi model of this car which is painted in a > "Congressional"-like, mostly stainless-steel scheme. I assume this is > incorrect- other than the various through cars (AT&SF, Cal. Zephyr, MP, > etc.) or the rebuilt "Elberton", I have never seen photos of PRR postwar > sleepers in colors other than tuscan. Anyone know for sure how > "Scioto Rapids" was painted? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:56:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Angela Sutton Subject: Re:[PRR] C&N CAB SIGNALS From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Scale houses... Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:38:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <20040727015632.22672.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.1.107272, Antispam-Core: 4.6.1.106808, Antispam-Data: 2004.7.26.108628 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __OIMO_MSGID 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __ANY_OUTLOOK_MUA 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __PORN_PHRASE_15_0 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, IN_REP_TO 0' Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi all, This is a long shot but are there any PRR style scale houses still in existence? The kind I'm interested in are the ones shown on plan 58460. There's a copy on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B Reason for asking is that my local railroad museum (Whippany Railway Museum) is building a ticket booth based on this plan and the guys building it have a few questions on some details and were looking for a real one to take a look at... So if you know of one still around (or have good photos of an original one) please let me know! Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:28:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] P70 w/o air conditioned coaches X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com What was the last year that these coaches without air conditioning would have been used on the PRR proper? These were the cars with a row of vents down the center line of the roof. There are photos of them on the P-RSL into the fifties when the State of NJ mandated upgrading or replacement of them. Some were upgraded and the purchase of Budd RDC units eliminated the need for any further upgrades. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:08:50 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com One picture shows an NS train at MG and the caption states that the PRR used horizontal red lights on the signals there. Isn't this wrong? If it is true where else did the PRR use them. I thought this was a post PRR change. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70 w/o air conditioned coaches Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:36:09 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35CEBD9@HERZOGMGMT> Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 13:23:15.0641 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFB53290:01C473DC] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The last ones I remember seeing were on the Pittsburgh commuter trains to Sewickly and Greensburg possibly as late as 1960. They were also used on fan excursions. Can't remember whether the Valpo dummies were a.c. or not when I was in Chicago in 1963. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:28 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] P70 w/o air conditioned coaches What was the last year that these coaches without air conditioning would have been used on the PRR proper? These were the cars with a row of vents down the center line of the roof. There are photos of them on the P-RSL into the fifties when the State of NJ mandated upgrading or replacement of them. Some were upgraded and the purchase of Budd RDC units eliminated the need for any further upgrades. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:38:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:47:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > The PRR changed from 3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red, > at interlockings only, sometime in the 1950's I believe. For instance, > their are a couple of photos in the Ball PRR book on the main west of > Philly that show 2 red lights. Perhaps someone else can supply an > exact > date. I would appreciate knowing this date as well. And was it "all" interlockings, or just some? And was it both signal heads? I realize, of course, that the answer is probably on my own web site somewhere!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:55:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:02:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70fR From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:02:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] P70fR From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:59:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rid Aspects in Interlocking Signals From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <4314145E-DFE4-11D8-9DF3-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Note change of subject... On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > The PRR changed from 3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red, > at interlockings only, sometime in the 1950's I believe. For instance, > their are a couple of photos in the Ball PRR book on the main west of > Philly that show 2 red lights. Perhaps someone else can supply an > exact > date. > I suspect the changeover was just starting to occur in 1954. The Pittsburgh Division ETT, from September 1954, shows on page 119, section "1280-A2 Fixed signal aspects not in conformity with typical aspects:" It shows interlocking signals with the upper head displaying two horizontal red aspects. The Middle and Philadelphia divisison ETT's of the same date make no mention of red aspects. Neither did a spot check of several others. Was the Pittsburgh Division the test area in 1954? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:08:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D35CEC8D@HERZOGMGMT> Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 16:55:52.0432 (UTC) FILETIME=[93590700:01C473FA] Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I believe one of the reasons for the conversion was so as to denote a "home signal" as opposed to an intermediate signal. I could be wrong on that, as usual. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 11:56 AM To: Jerry Britton Cc: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article > And was it "all" > interlockings, or just some? I believe it was all interlockings (may have taken a while to convert them all of course). Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] X29's In Express Service Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:16:36 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Volume 6 of the RP Cyc has an article on express box cars which contains = pictures of X29 #100688 with GSC BX high-speed trucks. Was this a one-of-a-kind test or are = there other cars known to have the GSC trucks? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] P70fR Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:22:59 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, I believe the P70fr was a single vestibule 88 seat coach. There were versions with both paired windows and picture windows. I have kitbashed = a few from ECW kits of ordinary P70s. To answer your original question, I would hazard a guess that they would have used P70GS's. These were a lower density coach for day travel in = long distance trains. I believe they seated 72, or 68 passengers. Sides = are available in HO from Laser Horizons. P70K's sat 56 passengers and were = used for those traveling overnight. The best trains got P85B's for that = service. This is all conjecture on my part based on consist lists, photos (whose captions say nothing about the cars!) and the stated seating capacity = and rest room size. Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Frederick Ripley Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 12:03 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] P70fR Hello All, As you can tell, I have been taking advantage of my lighter summer = teaching load to work on my passenger car fleet. So now I have a question about P70's: I would like to model a couple that would have been used on secondary trains in the 1960's (to/from Chicago, potentially the = "Admiral", "Penn. Ltd.", "Manhattan Ltd.", and definitely the "Ft. Pitt.", as well = as rider coaches on mail trains 45 and 52). Is the class above (P70fR) the appropriate one for long-distance = service? If so, what is available in HO that represents this car pretty accurately? Thanks, Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:27:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred Ripley asks: > As you can tell, I have been taking advantage of my lighter summer > teaching > load to work on my passenger car fleet. So now I have a question about > P70's: I would like to model a couple that would have been used on > secondary trains in the 1960's (to/from Chicago, potentially the > "Admiral", > "Penn. Ltd.", "Manhattan Ltd.", and definitely the "Ft. Pitt.", as well as > rider coaches on mail trains 45 and 52). > > Is the class above (P70fR) the appropriate one for long-distance service? > If so, what is available in HO that represents this car pretty accurately? Fred, A couple of good references to invest in if you are interested in passenger cars are: Pennsy Streamliners: The Blue Ribbon Fleet, Joe Welsh ISBN 0-89024-293-3 Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvanoia Railroad, Vol 1 Coaches, Liljestrand and Sweetland, ISBN0-931477-00-0 >From them you will learn that the P70fR was a relatively high capacity coiach (84 seats) and therefore was not as lilkely to appear on long distance trains. As a prewar conversion, these would have been pretty worn out by the 1960s... The P70FAR seated slightly fewere passengersd (80) and also represents a prewar conversion. (ECW has a kti) The P70FBR is a postwar conversion seating 80. Note that these car kept their clerestories into the 1950's (ECW has kits) The P70KR and P70GS were prewar long distance conversions, and might be more appropriate for the trains names. Models of both are available from NKP car company (http://www.nkpcarco.com/) as brass sides on a core. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:31:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 03:22 PM, Andy Miller wrote: > I believe the P70fr was a single vestibule 88 seat coach. There were > versions with both paired windows and picture windows. I have > kitbashed a > few from ECW kits of ordinary P70s. > > To answer your original question, I would hazard a guess that they > would > have used P70GS's. These were a lower density coach for day travel in > long > distance trains. I believe they seated 72, or 68 passengers. Sides > are > available in HO from Laser Horizons. P70K's sat 56 passengers and > were used > for those traveling overnight. The best trains got P85B's for that > service. > This is all conjecture on my part based on consist lists, photos (whose > captions say nothing about the cars!) and the stated seating capacity > and > rest room size. My online, searchable database has seating capacities on a per car (specific road number, that is) basis. You can search by class and see what cars held how many, what types of seats they had, etc. This is all from the original PRR 1954 Passenger Car Roster. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:37:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 03:27 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > The P70FBR is a postwar conversion seating 80. Note that these car > kept > their clerestories into the 1950's (ECW has kits) There's a vendor coming out with ready-to-run P70FBR's in N scale. I helped him with roster information and references to published photos. Although most had clerestory roofs, many did have round roofs!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 11:38 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > >> The PRR changed from 3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red, >> at interlockings only, sometime in the 1950's I believe. For instance, >> their are a couple of photos in the Ball PRR book on the main west of >> Philly that show 2 red lights. Perhaps someone else can supply an >> exact >> date. There is no date, because it the PRR did not make a general change from "3 horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red"! This issue was discussed ad naseum several years ago. Bottom line? Three horizontal lights is a STOP indication. There was/is no need in most cases for a more "absolute" stop! In fact these signals did exist, but they are EXTREMELY RARE on the PRR. I think we cataloged 2 or 3 interlocking with signal heads with them. In "the Ball PRR Book" (aka The Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1940s and 1950s) I find one shot of Slope. Sorry, but one shot a trend does not make... Oregon Rail Supply sells the heads with red LEDs as an "absolute" block signals and the all yellow as "permissive", which is utter boilerwash! Go out and look at (or dig up photos) some interlocking signals in the 1960s, 70's, 80's and 90's and you will see all yellow signals... > I would appreciate knowing this date as well. And was it "all" > interlockings, or just some? And was it both signal heads? > > I realize, of course, that the answer is probably on my own web site > somewhere!!! It is! (in the archives of this list) Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:58:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:55:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 03:46 PM, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu wrote: > There is no date, because it the PRR did not make a general change > from "3 > horizontal amber lights to two horizontal red"! This issue was > discussed > ad naseum several years ago. Bottom line? Three horizontal lights is > a > STOP indication. There was/is no need in most cases for a more > "absolute" > stop! In fact these signals did exist, but they are EXTREMELY RARE on > the > PRR. I think we cataloged 2 or 3 interlocking with signal heads with > them. In "the Ball PRR Book" (aka The Pennsylvania Railroad in the > 1940s > and 1950s) I find one shot of Slope. Sorry, but one shot a trend does > not > make... I think a few were documented around Gallitzin. But that's just vague recollection. Heck, I think that goes back to the days of Mark Bej participating on the list! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:11:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article From: "SID JOHNSON" Subject: [PRR] RULE 292 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:18:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com >From late 1961 thru early 1962 I visited every tower on the Panhandle from Weirton Jct to Bricker including Rockville. It seemed as if the three horizontal lights were there one day and 2 red lights the next. This would apply for aspects and rules 283, 288, 290, 291 and 292. I believe the first ones I saw where either at Morgan Run or Mingo Jct. To my knowledge only Home Signals were changed. I think the N&W made the change earlier. Sid ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:19:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Horseshoe Curve article MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The first red home signals were done in 1954 at Overbrook,52 Street, and Paoli. THere was a G.O. to change all home signals sytem wide. Also you won't see any Grade markers or "G" plates on home signals between Altoona and Gallitzin. All trains must stop at a red home signal. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael Hauk" Subject: [PRR] RE: Scale houses Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:55:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35455.63848@dsop.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rob, I have 3 color slides of the scale house at Northumberland I took circa 1978. Views are front, front and left side 3/4, and right side. If these might help I can dupe them digitally and email them to you. My wife and kids are out of town with my camera until this weekend, however. Mike Hauk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Subject: Scale houses... From: "Rob Schoenberg" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:38:05 -0400 Hi all, This is a long shot but are there any PRR style scale houses still in existence? The kind I'm interested in are the ones shown on plan 58460. There's a copy on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B Reason for asking is that my local railroad museum (Whippany Railway Museum) is building a ticket booth based on this plan and the guys building it have a few questions on some details and were looking for a real one to take a look at... So if you know of one still around (or have good photos of an original one) please let me know! Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] signal discussion Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:52:12 +0000 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I asked our resident Chicago signal guru (Bob Fredland) about this. Bob worked Englewood Tower for many years the worked for Union Switch and Signal. here is his response: Norm, In an effort to be more emphatic in displaying the aspect, per Rule 292, "Stop Signal", the PRR began changing the lamp array in position light signals to display an aspect that consisted of the top head (only) displaying two red lamps in a horizontal configuration, in place of three yellow lamps in a horizontal configuration. The best that I can define, these changes began in 1955. I have an Eastern Districrt (Pittsburgh-Crestline) ETT from Oct.,1955 that is the earliest that mentions it. An April, 1956 Pittsburgh Region ETT also includes mention of this change. These changes are mentioned in the general body of the ETT, not the general order add-ons in the rear. It could be found in the section "Signal aspects not in conformity with typical aspects, in service:" It was further stated that these changes would occur on an individual basis, with no further bulleting. Because of the lamp changes, all aspects requiring an active "B-Head", from "Medium Clear" and more restrictive, ha One internal feature that this made possible was the control of the A-Head hub lamp. Prior to this time, the A-Head hub lamp was illuminated continuously. When the two red horizontal array was instituted, the A-Head hub lamp was illuminated only when needed for upgraded A-Head aspects, less restrictive than "Stop Signal". Anecdotally, I have heard that these changes were not wholly stressed in the electric zone. In my travels, I saw a lot of interlockings out east, in the1970's, still incorporating a three horizontal yellow array on their home signals. Conversely, if you may have noticed in my motion picture in April, there was an example of a the horizontal yellow remaining on an interlocking home signal out here on the west end, quite long after the change over, that being at Kentland, Indiana, shot in 1972. Bob Fredland Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:28:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Signal Colors - Lunar White vs. Yellow X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have, for a long time, gone by the term "lunar white" for the color of lamp used in the Pennsy's three lamp position signals. Is lunar white a correct term for the color? Were there lunar white and yellow aspects used on the Pennsy during the same era? On the Reading, we had lunar white aspects below the signal that were used to allow tonnage trains to pass a stop aspect at a speed allowing the train to stop short of any stopped train, broken rail, thrown turnout, etc. These would be lite solidly for no train in the next block to flashing for a train in the next block. A tonnage train is one that will not be able to start at that point once stopped due to the grade. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:28:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Signal Colors - Lunar White vs. Yellow X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I have, for a long time, gone by the term "lunar white" for the color of lamp used in the Pennsy's three lamp position signals. Is lunar white a correct term for the color? Were there lunar white and yellow aspects used on the Pennsy during the same era? On the Reading, we had lunar white aspects below the signal that were used to allow tonnage trains to pass a stop aspect at a speed allowing the train to stop short of any stopped train, broken rail, thrown turnout, etc. These would be lite solidly for no train in the next block to flashing for a train in the next block. A tonnage train is one that will not be able to start at that point once stopped due to the grade. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:54:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com So far no one has mentioned a factor, besides size of restrooms, which makes a coach desirable for long distance travel: namely, reclining seats. The P70kr and P70gsr had 'em. Most of the other P70xx classes did not. The Liljestrand 1952 consist book on East-West trains indicates the latter were used as substitutes in emergencies. Otherwise, P70kr, P70gsr, and P85 were the choice for long distance. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Aspects in Interlocking Signals Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:05:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [151.199.239.204] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:07:57 -0500 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com I spent many evenings in my high school days at Harrington, Delaware waiting for a train to go down the DM&V secondary just to see the different signal aspects. The interlocking signals there were all white until their removal by Conrail in the early '80s. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Re: red interlocking aspects Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:46:39 -0400 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com The following is from someone preferring to stay off-list. He solicited feedback from several people, including an active Norfolk Southern dispatcher... On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:38 PM, (withheld) wrote: > First introduced lines west, probably sometimes in the 1940's when a > part of it was signalled. Basically, whatever branch this was (and no > body remembers) became the testing ground for the red. > > During the 1950's, this spread from Lines west to Pittsburgh and > Middle divisions so that by early 1960's, most interlockings "railroad > west of harrisburg" had them (automatics were still yellow and never > changed -- just interlockings were red). "By the time conrail took > over", every interlocking west of Harrisburg and the port road > (including LEMO-shock's mill on west shore) had them. No time frame on > port road installation. > > Were tried on parts of NEC and Philadelphia division (old mainline) > near Philly. Hit and miss with a few interlockings having them, > others not. Not consecutive interlockings, but 1 here and there. > During 1980's some SIGNALS would have them, some not. Never more than > "5-10" interlockings east of Harrisburg had them, other than port > road. I'm not saying this is right, just another opinion. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Scale houses Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:59:30 +0000 > Subject: Scale houses... > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:38:05 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Cars of interest MOW style Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:20:58 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Taking a queue from Ben Hom's email the other day I pulled Pennsy Power 3 off the shelf tonight to look for freight cars. In the top photo on page 355 two XL Camp Cars are visible behind the FP7. The third car visible appears to be a X25, X28 or X29. What caught my attention is the CRECo door mounted directly adjacent to the end ladder which opened to the left. It also appears the original door opening was plated over. These changes obviously occurred when the car was modified for MOW service. Does anyone know why this car was converted or have a better picture of it. I assume this is more than just a standard tool or material car. The caption says the picture was taken at Cresson in august 1964. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scale houses... Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:31:23 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Rob, I have slides of the scale house at Mt. Union I took in the early '80s - 3/4 left front, 3/4 right front, 3/4 right rear. I can "scan" them with my camera as well if you need them. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Schoenberg To: PRR-talk Cc: Robert Schoenberg Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: [PRR] Scale houses... > Hi all, > > This is a long shot but are there any PRR style scale houses still in > existence? > The kind I'm interested in are the ones shown on plan 58460. There's a copy > on my site at: > http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=58460-B > > Reason for asking is that my local railroad museum (Whippany Railway Museum) > is > building a ticket booth based on this plan and the guys building it have a > few > questions on some details and were looking for a real one to take a look > at... > > So if you know of one still around (or have good photos of an original one) > please > let me know! > > Thanks! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:37:11 -0700 Subject: [PRR] F3 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <98636256-E1C0-11D8-AF45-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=216.93.195.155 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Hi, I think someone was asking about the fireman's side of an F3. There's one on eBay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29489&item=2259369298&rd=1#ebayphotohost ing Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] F3 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:30:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greg, Hmmm, that photo is already on the web in the PRR roster available at northeast.railfan.net, so have got to wonder if that's a copy. I was the one looking, but it was for a PRR F1 Mogul. I was able to copy the tiny F1 firman's side photo at that website and play with it to get it lasrge enough to work with. I was, after all, building a N scale version! see http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/afi.sized.jpg for a photo of the completed model. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ritacco" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: [PRR] F3 > Hi, > I think someone was asking about the fireman's side of an F3. There's > one on eBay at > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ > eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29489&item=2259369298&rd=1#ebayphotohost > ing > > Greg > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: Prr-talk LIST From: David Wartell Subject: Re: [PRR] F3 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:59:21 -0400 To: "Gregg Mahlkov" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gregg, The model looks really good. How does it run? Dave Wartell djwartel@comcast.net On Jul 29, 2004, at 9:30 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Greg, > > Hmmm, that photo is already on the web in the PRR roster available at > northeast.railfan.net, so have got to wonder if that's a copy. I was > the one > looking, but it was for a PRR F1 Mogul. I was able to copy the tiny F1 > firman's side photo at that website and play with it to get it lasrge > enough > to work with. I was, after all, building a N scale version! see > http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/afi.sized.jpg for a > photo of > the completed model. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Ritacco" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:37 PM > Subject: [PRR] F3 > > >> Hi, >> I think someone was asking about the fireman's side of an F3. There's >> one on eBay at >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ >> eBayISAPI.dll? >> ViewItem&category=29489&item=2259369298&rd=1#ebayphotohost >> ing >> >> Greg >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:16:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] E8 locos in Ohio X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bennet Levin's E8 locomotives arrived this evening at Dennison, Ohio with a few private varnish cars plus his own Warrior Ridge and #120 Observation bringing up the rear. Also seen at the Steamfest in Dennison was Ross Roland and Rich Melvin. Great train ride on the Pandhandle line both eastbound and westbound. Dennis Sautters Canton, OH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of F22s with 16"/50 Iowa class gun From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: F22 w/ Naval Gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:31:12 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jul 1, 2004, at 5:39 AM, Brian Butcher wrote: > I would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the F22 =20= > 975532 and 435308. I would surmise=A0these two are semi-permanently =20= > coupled...1) I can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end =20= > of these two cars and 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard =20= > feature of the F22), and 3)...the=A0seemingly identical=A0repaint / = shop =20 > date=A0and place of the two cars. Nope, conventional couplers, looks like carmer cut levers and yes, =20 safety chains were a standard feature of many cars in service prior to =20= WWII. The 1919 CBC photo of the F23 at =20 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?=20 photo=3DPRR_434445_F23_endview.jpg shows them clearly. In addition, a =20= higher quality image of the F22s than the one at =20 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?=20 photo=3DPRR_435317_925527_F22_E12573_090440.jpg clearly shows the = chains, =20 carmer levers and couplers. Bill Lane supplied a date of 1-2-41 for the photo. My SWAG is that =20 these cars were recalled from general service as it became clear that =20= new battleship and big gun construction was a priority. They were =20 "renovated" with cradles and repainted circa September 1940 and this =20 was documented by the PRR in "builder's photos" such as the F22s above. =20= The date does call into question the model of the gun, as no Iowas =20 would have been gunned at that time. The gun may still be a 16"/50 or =20= it may be a 16"/45, or a shore battery gun , since Bill Lane indicated =20= to me off line that the description of the photo is "Army and Navy guns =20= on F22". > Also....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the car) =20= > is a conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH =20= > side of the car) seems to have been modified with a=A0low-profile =20 > horizontal type. Unlikely. More likely is that the brake staff has been removed and =20 fastened to the deck to keep it from being knocked over by the barrel. =20= This indicates to me that the F22 did not have a brake staff that could =20= be dropped. > =A0 > Interestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where they =20= > meet the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the =20= > spot... Or its just been parked there a while . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-1-859806429 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 1, 2004, at 5:39 AM, Brian Butcher wrote: VerdanaI would be interested to hear what the ORER has to say about the F22 975532 and 435308. I would surmise=A0these two are semi-permanently coupled...1) I can not see a cut-lever of any kind on the joining end of these two cars and 2)...the safety chains present (not a standard feature of the F22), and 3)...the=A0seemingly identical=A0repaint / shop date=A0and = place of the two cars. Nope, conventional couplers, looks like carmer cut levers and yes, safety chains were a standard feature of many cars in service prior to WWII. The 1919 CBC photo of the F23 at = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_434445_F23_e= ndview.jpg shows them clearly. In addition, a higher quality image of the F22s than the one at = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_435317_92552= 7_F22_E12573_090440.jpg clearly shows the chains, carmer levers and couplers. Bill Lane supplied a date of 1-2-41 for the photo. My SWAG is that these cars were recalled from general service as it became clear that new battleship and big gun construction was a priority. They were "renovated" with cradles and repainted circa September 1940 and this was documented by the PRR in "builder's photos" such as the F22s above. The date does call into question the model of the gun, as no Iowas would have been gunned at that time. The gun may still be a 16"/50 or it may be a 16"/45, or a shore battery gun , since Bill Lane indicated to me off line that the description of the photo is "Army and Navy guns on F22". VerdanaAlso....While the "B" end of 435308 (on the near RH side of the car) is a conventional vertical staff...the "B" end 975532 (on the far LH side of the car) seems to have been modified with a=A0low-profile horizontal type. Unlikely. More likely is that the brake staff has been removed and fastened to the deck to keep it from being knocked over by the barrel.=20= This indicates to me that the F22 did not have a brake staff that could be dropped. = Verdana=A0 VerdanaInterestingly...look carefully at (all) the wheel flanges where they meet the track. Obviously, the journal boxes were lubricated on the = spot... Or its just been parked there a while <. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-1-859806429-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] F22 w/Naval Gun Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:06:35 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:01 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > =A0 What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the cars=20= > insuring safe transport of the barrels.=A0 Have seen this on passenger=20= > equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight=20 > equipment.=A0 Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads=20= > transversing several cars? Yes, It was common on freight equipment (gons and flats) for many years=20= prior to WWII. Westerfield has appropriate instructions in many kits=20 regarding the period of use of these chains. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-5-869129867 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:01 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: Arial=A0 What I found interesting is the chains and hooks between the cars insuring safe transport of the barrels.=A0 Have seen this on passenger equipment but don't recall ever seeing it on revenue freight equipment.=A0 Was/is this a common or required practice on long loads transversing several = cars? Yes, It was common on freight equipment (gons and flats) for many years prior to WWII. Westerfield has appropriate instructions in many kits regarding the period of use of these chains. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-5-869129867-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - MP54 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:23:34 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, I've overcome this problem before by using some simple=20 math. Print out a copy of the plan at any size you like.=20 Then, using a scalerule or a ruler take a even=20 measurement, such as 7'-0" and see how many inches it=20 equals. Then, use the ratio of x/100%=3Dy/z. Where x is the=20 measured distance and y is the real-time equivilent of the=20 length in HO, such as roughly, 8 feet in HO is 1 inch. z=20 is the percentage of enl;argement the drawing should then=20 be printed at.=20 I've been doing this on a passenger car window-band=20 project for someone and it's worked great. I can now lay=20 the plan on a Walthers car and it will be "to scale". Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. beth capl caples wrote: Does anyone know the size of the porthole windows on the=20 end of the cars? Does anyone know the length,width, and height of the=20 headlight mounted on top of the roof? (I checked Rob's website of MP54=20 drawings and all it lists is the height) Thanks very much, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:03:16 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania Special Greetings to Bob, Jerry and the List: November 24, 1912 Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ============================ Bob Zoeller wrote: > When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway Limited? > > Bob Zoeller --------------040303070900000307010708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to Bob, Jerry and the List:

November 24, 1912

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
============================
Bob Zoeller wrote:

When did this train, started in 1902, change its name to Broadway Limited?

Bob Zoeller

--------------040303070900000307010708-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:46 -0400 Evan and list, Virtually all road haul traffic interchanged between the PRR and RDG was = interchanged at either Harrisburg or Philadelphia (Belmont). The only = traffic interchanged at other points would be very, very local, i. e. in = the switching limits or only a couple of stations down the line. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, Pa. I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the Pennsy = and the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa. Do not believe there was that = much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia and = Harrisburg. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C4608D.B7A2EDE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Evan and list,

Virtually all road haul traffic interchanged between the PRR and = RDG was=20 interchanged at either Harrisburg or Philadelphia (Belmont). The only = traffic=20 interchanged at other points would be very, very local, i. e. = in the=20 switching limits or only a couple of stations down the line.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 = 11:08=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Lancaster, = Pa.

I am looking for interchange information for 1950 between the = Pennsy and=20 the Reading Co. at Lancaster, Pa.   Do not believe there was = that=20 much as these two roads had major interchange points in Philadelphia = and=20 Harrisburg.

Thank you,

Evan = Leisey
RCT&HS=20 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ=20 2003
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C4608D.B7A2EDE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:13:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Eric and list, The actual prototype dimension you mention would have to be altered on a model to permit it to negotiate the sharper curves found on model railroads. So, the drawing probably reflects the model as built and not the real thing. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: [PRR] NJ International Many Faces of the K4 > Just wondering how accurrate the diagram of the K4 is in this book. 3rd Rail relied on this drawing for their K4. There appears to be too much space between the pilot and the pilot truck's first wheel. They claim that there is a gap as shown on this drawing. > Thanks, > Eric > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Smoke, pt. 2 From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > On a real loco, steam or diesel, any smoke would indicate fuel being > wasted. How Much? Small amounts of fuel can create large amounts of smoke. > I do know the N&W (PRR owned some stock in) could be picky > about that; evidence can be seen in letters between W. Link and the > officials of the N&W. ...and invisible outputs can indicate fuel wastage as well. Much of this was PR concern. It was an easy target for action, whether _effective_ is another matter. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "'PRR-Talk'" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of early GG-1s in Freight service Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:42:02 -0500 To: Ian Macoy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ian, Through WWII, the GG1s were definitely used predominantly in passenger service. However, there are occasional photos of them pulling freight. Obviously, the freight motor of choice for that period is the P5A boxcab and modified. Note that several modifieds maintained their boilers through WWII and were used on passenger trains. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 On Jul 6, 2004, at 11:03 AM, Ian Macoy wrote: > Does anyone know whether early GG-1s (e.g., 1930s-1941, futura > lettered) > were ever used to haul manifest or other freight, or were they strictly > limited to passenger service during that time? > > Thanx. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/07/04, Re: smoke From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > > I'd rather see a 4th option. If BLI is determined to release the locos > with smoke, they need to offer the locos without the smoke system as > well. Yes, it is easy for the consumer to snip the wires or turn the > smoke option off but if it is never planned on being used, why pay for > its installation. The realities of quantity production mean that building/stocking/shipping/sparing two versions will raise the costs and prices for both. (I have no opinion re desirability of smoke units, as such...) best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: The PRRT&HS Modeling Committee,TKM, and our first Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:21:46 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5A6EB43BF868D5118B51000347713BC70937920A@TTMSX1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Fellow modelers: I really appreciate Elden's kind comments about my efforts in this area. However, this a terrific team that we have assembled and kudos have to go to the many that have made it all possible. TKM would have gone nowhere without the enthusiasm and contributions of many people. These folks not only contributed, they set a standard for excellence in modeling that will be difficult to surpass in any scale and for any railroad. Special thanx go to Committee Members Elden Gatwood, Jack Consoli, Greg Martin, Bruce Smith, Gary Mittner, Jim Hunter and Ben Hom for their articles and continuing participation. Also special thanx goes to contributors, John Teichmoeller (Covered Hoppers), Tom Hayden (Class T1), Nick Nagrant (MTH PRR Work Equipment), Lin Bongaardt (Train Signals), Garrett Rea (Steel Slab Load), Bob Johnson (H30-H30a), Gene Deimling (O-scale X29), Bill Lane (S-scale GR), Bill Kepner (N-scale G41a), Norm Bell (Backdating a GG1), Brian Carlson (Athearn Genesis EMD F-3), Bill Neale (Steubenville Freight House) and newly appointed Committee member Gary Leanz (BLI J1 DCC). Thanx also to all that have written us offering comments and corrections as well as thanks for and encouragement in our endeavors. I would also like to recognize Bob Hundman and his Mainline Modeler magazine for their continuing support of our efforts. Bob is a fine person that is truly dedicated to the furtherance of providing information to all in the hobby. The Society and Bob have formed a very mutually supporting relationship that I hope lasts for a long time. If I have overlooked anyone that has made a contribution to the success of this effort please accept my apologies, it is an oversight on my part and was unintentional. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PRR K4 STREAMLINED Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:35:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It's probably a market demand thing. Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Vastano" To: "PRR-TALK" ; Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] PRR K4 STREAMLINED > Group, > > Since the talk has been slow I wanted to throw this out there. Why haven't we seen a fully streamlined K4 from any of the manufactures yet? (HO scale) I know that you can buy brass but to me that seems like it would be really easy to make a plastic boiler or even resin to go over a Bowser etc.... We had talk from Frank Zappa many moons ago about this and he has fallen off the face of the earth. > > Sam V > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/9MtolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:56:44 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Signal Design Help X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [151.203.81.5] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:55:35 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I shoud add that the C/MRI system was very well described in a series of articles in Model Railroader Magazine, January - April, 2004. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:40:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - STREAMLINED K4 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B Modeling Question Cc: STEPHEN HOXIE , PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Intermountain FP7 AND Athearn GP-35 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:18:36 -0400 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 12, 2004, at 7:42 PM, Ted Andrews wrote: > I heard this too from Trains.com. Hence, it looks that Intermountain > will be joining Roco in a rush to a re-tooled FP-7! Where Roco (and related) typically do one road number, InterMountain consistently does at least four road numbers, with matching B units. And for N scalers, trains.com reports F3's with sound, though no Pennsy units (due to small numberboards) yet. I doubt they will do F3's due to that, but I'm confident Pennsy will be included when they eventually do the F7's and FP7's. InterMountain is on a roll these days, typically with a dozen new releases each month! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Re: Intermountain ATSF Stock Cars Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:57:42 -0500 To: "Ted Andrews" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 13, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Ted Andrews wrote: > I wonder if these ATSF cars were on PRR livestock trains: FW-8 and > NF-6. I also wonder about the typical compositon of these trains too. > In particular, what other road names were found in the consists. Photographic evidence on the PRR indicates at least the top 3 or 4 owners of cars were represented. I have seen photos of AT&SF, UP, Burlington and Milwaukee at one time or another. Of course, the mix of these is the tough question to answer, and that likely changed significantly with era, or even time of year. Finally, at least for some of us, we can't forget the "TRS" trains headed west with empties (Tank, Reefer, Stock), which again may have a disproportionate load of "foreign" cars compared to the east bound if loads went via ERIE, but empties went via PRR (as was the case for some PFE reefers). I plan on a mix of 50% PRR and 50% foreign with the foreign cars being biased to roads around Chicago and St. Louis, but containing cars from the top national owners. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Livestock traffic on PRR Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:08:52 -0500 To: robert netzlof X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Jul 13, 2004, at 11:53 AM, robert netzlof wrote: > My guess would be that the bulk of that traffic would have been > destined for New York City, rather than Boston, Philadelphia, or > Baltimore. How much of it would have been on PRR I have no idea. It > could be that NYC had some advantage in access to the city proper > which might have steered (no pun intended) much of the business their > way. On the other hand, if the kosher slaughterhouses were in New > Jersey, PRR would have as good a shot as any. In fact, there were huge "stockyard" barges, owned by the PRR (IIRC) that took cattle from New Jersey to New York, so PRR definitely had access to New York markets. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:52:10 -0400 Not yet, but is probably going to have to happen as the journals wear = out. =20 Beware the ECW and the Walthers are not the same 2D-P5. The Walthers = has solid bearings and was found only on the R50s in later years. In the = 20's some early P70s had them, and I suspect some B60s may have also; = although I have no proof. =20 regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park Varieties Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:09 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck Modifications Walthers keeps telling me that their 2D-P5 trucks will be issued as = separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has any listmember tried using the = Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the Eastern Car Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling qualities? =20 Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C46912.E2E73EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
Not=20 yet, but is probably going to have to happen as the journals wear=20 out.

Beware=20 the ECW and the Walthers are not the same 2D-P5. The Walthers has = solid=20 bearings and was found only on the R50s in later years. In the = 20's some=20 early P70s had them, and I suspect some B60s may have also; although I = have no=20 proof.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Park=20 Varieties
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:09 PM
To: = PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] ECW 2D-P5 Truck=20 Modifications

Walthers keeps telling me that their = 2D-P5 trucks=20 will be issued as separate intems "soon". In the meantime, has = any=20 listmember tried using the Tichy #3059 nylon bearing inserts on the = Eastern=20 Car Works 2D-P5's to improve durability and rolling = qualities?

Frank = Brua
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C46912.E2E73EB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:40:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: More on Intermountain's F3 N Scale From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, July 14, 2004, at 02:30 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > We all make our choices and I for one would find it much easier to > correct the numberboards than to suffer with the stripes that are too > thick as offered by Microscale, again you must weigh the options of > paint and decaling vs. detail and touch up. Good point on the decals. Plus, buying PRR units gives you something to run until you get around to fixing the number boards (or not). > > Intermountain is certainly willing to listen and go forward with my > recommendations and using "OUR" formula for colors of the basic > DGLP/DGLE and Buff to PRR lettering diagrams. I like Marty's attitude > about the hobby and his forward thinking. I'm glad they are being receptive to you, your offers, and COLOR!!! I was one of the ones who really pushed for correct number boards. I gave up long ago. I would fully support your recommendation to IM to do them with the incorrect boards. Now, can I make a recommendation on your recommendation? IM normally does four road numbers for loco releases. The F3 is a Phase II and is modular, in terms of dynamic brakes and fans. Would you please ask them to consider doing two numbers with the high fans (Phase II Early) and two with the low fans (Phase II Late)? Maybe I can't have correct number boards, but this request is doable, since the interchangeability is already in the design. Unlike some roads, Pennsy had both versions! I had emailed Marty on this and haven't heard back yet, but he's probably a bit busy having just returned from the show. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Food for thought: new steam models Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:00:39 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] GG-1 Build Dates etc. Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Greetings to all: The builder's number and builder's dates for all 139 GG1s are contained in Bill Edson's reference book "Keystone Steam and Electric," which should be at most railroad museum libraries. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Macoy wrote: >Does anyone have or know a source for build dates and builder numbers (not >the loco #) for the GG-1, particularly the early series? This is the kind >of info typically found on the builders plate for a particular loco. > >Any help greatly appreciated. > >Ian >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] renumbering of E-units Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:00:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Fred, Those numbers are given in the rosters in Wither's book "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial -Volume 7 - EMD E Units and ALCo PAs". Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Ripley To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:03 PM Subject: [PRR] renumbering of E-units > Hello all, > > Does anyone happen to have a before-and-after list of E-units, when they > were renumbered from the 5700-5800's to the 4200-4300's in 1966? > I model this transitional period, and plan to paint a couple of renumbered > E-8's, and would naturally like to avoid using a number that was applied > to a unit still in its original no. that I already have (if that makes > sense!). > > Thanks for any info, > > Fred R. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] water pans Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:19:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com George: Danny Seymour has modeled track troughs on his Shark River and Western. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4374/tour.html This is on Jerry's web site. I didn't see a shot of these in his photos, but perhaps if you contact him he may email you some. At any rate, he has (had, it's been moved and currently in the process of rebuilding), a beautiful layout and is well worth the time to check out. Regards, Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rudy" To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: [PRR] water pans > One detail I would like to add to my layout is the water pans used for > tender water pickup "on the fly". Has anybody done this and can someone > point me to some pictures? > Thanks, > George > New Bloomfield, Pa. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR TALK" From: Listmaster Subject: Re: [PRR] LISTING PRR FOR SALE STUFF Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:43:24 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Jul 18, 2004, at 6:54 PM, Richard Poole wrote: > LIST, > > I think there is some restriction on listing PRR memorabilia FOR > SALE on the PRR TALK list but I'm not sure what it is. Can anyone > help? As noted on the list's home page (URL is in the footer of every post), FOR SALE ads are allowed on the 1st and 15th of each month. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] BAR Geeps Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:30:08 +0000 >From: RickTipton@aol.com >Subject: [PRR] BAR Geeps >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:28:44 EDT > > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:40:06 -0400 > > From: "Al Buchan" > > Subject: RE: Re: BAR Geeps From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:58:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Standard / narrow gauge crossover X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com George, it is not that hard to build track work.. The biggest challenge with your crossover is the code 55 rail as it is easily kinked in the vertical plane if a spike is driven too far in. Another method of mounting the code 55 rail is to coat the bottom with hot glue then let it cool, pin it in place then run a soldering iron along the top of the rail to remelt the glue fixing the rail to the ties. Another suggestion, buy an Atlas or Walthers code 83 crossover then adapt the code 55 to the code 83 on the desired route. The crossover rails of the narrow gauge route could be shortened to lessen the amount of code 83 showing. My favorite method of adapting one height of rail to another is to take a cutoff disk across the middle, top of a rail joiner of the larger code rail then flatten the tops on one half of the joiner. Next shim or file the flattened side so that the smaller rail fits on top of it with the railhead flush with that of the larger rail. Then solder the entire thing together. Will the narrow gauge line be functional or just for show? BTW, it wasn't uncommon for crossovers to be made of one weight of rail with the cross line adapting its rail to the larger rail to make the crossing then returning to the lighter rail. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:49:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 20, 2004, at 12:44 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Saw on the Mercandise Service page that they are sold out so I went to > Walthers and they had this description. This car was more versatile > than I thought! > (Ad shows a B60b) > Pennsylvania Railroad > Walthers Part # 85-5000 > HO scale, $59.95, not currently in stock at Walthers, Expected: TBA > > n partnership with Centralia Car Shops, these new passenger cars are > ready-to-run versions of the Pennsylvania Railroads P85bR 44-seat > coaches. These detailed cars feature diecast metal trucks with 46 > metal wheels, complete underbody detail, individual wire handrails, > aluminum window trim and Kadee couplers. What a mess! Part number and photo of a B60b. Description of a P85b. And "46 metal wheels"? Hmmm, that's challenging the wheel count on a BP60 "Centipede" set!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:41:57 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, As an employee of the Traffic Department of the Pennsylvania Railroad from 1962 to beyond the merger, I can confirm that the absolute last CT1000 was the 1945 edition - that's the only one we had. Industry lists were maintained in the Lines East and Lines West Switching Tariffs, which may have been in the 400-series. But, these were documents containing charges as well as names and were filed with the ICC. There were also issues for major terminals and joint issues for multiple railroad cities. The the 1960's PRR did not have the clerical staff, nor the willingness on the part of the sales staff, to even keep the Switching Tariffs current. I recall the DSM berating one of the sales reps in Cleveland about a parking lot in town that was shown as a fuel depot! There were many instances of this. I'd say several dozen in Cleveland alone. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: [PRR] List of Stations and Sidings > Just checked the list archives and the "bibliography" of editions of > the CT1000 and equivalents ends with the 1945 edition. > > I saw on eBay -- but can't find it now since they botched an upgrade -- > a 1960's version that had a form number in the 400's. Don't recall > exactly what it was, but the scan of the cover was consistent with > "List of Reportable Locations". > > Anyone have such a beast for the early to mid-1950's? > > In the Harrisburg area, I've confirmed (via Polk city directory) that a > few of the online entities from 1945 were gone by 1954. Some other > businesses moved into their locations. But I don't know if they > utilized rail service or not. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:21:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Bob, Back in the mid-1960's, the PRR and all the other Class I's were working with the AAR to eastblish uniform waybilling and car movement systems so that information could be exchanged electronically. Out of this came the "nine-alpha nightmare", where all locations had to consist of nine letters or less. "Pittsburgh" lost its "h", but others were more troublesome. "New York" became "NEWYORK", "Philadelphia" became "PHILADELP", but was "North Philadelphia" "NORPHILAD" or "NPHILADEL"? There were agreements that "North", "South", etc., would be "N", "S", etc. But, Should it be "MOU" or MT for "Mount". How about where I live, Port Saint Joe, FL? The AN used to bill it "Port St Joe", but for a while, the Nine-alpha rules made it "PTSTJOE", and then it became "PORSAIJOE". So, I suspect you are correct, it was never adopted except possibly for internal use. BTW, there was another document AD72, "List of Accounting Department Numbers of Stations" aorund in the 1960's, too. But, like the CT4001, no industries were shown. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: [PRR] Form CT4001, further thoughts > I have two of the useless things. Thinking on it, both are pristine > with the employee's "I swear I got this and will do what it says" > certificate still intact. Further, others that I've seen on eBay look > equally spiffy (L@@K Vintage R@RE etc). I've never seen one which > looked used. > > It occurs to me that maybe they were printed "...for use in CAR > MOVEMENT REPORTING SYSTEM", but that the system never went live and > so the booiks were never handed out. I do know that in the early to > mid 1960's PRR and AAR (and others, I suppose) were hot on improving > car utilization and IBM was in there pitching the magical powers of > the New All New Better-Than-Anything-Before System/360 which was > going to do anything and everything everybody wanted to do but didn't > know how... > > I do recall having converstion with a programmer on the AAR's system, > who recounted some diffficulties in areas where the system logic had > been less than adequately analysed, and I never heard much of it > after that. Perhaps the CT4001 is a leftover from something that was > planned but never really happened? Could be too that PRR just plain > ran out of money to buy/rent/lease big processors for the proposed system? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:57:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR lounge cars From: Frederick Ripley From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:08:57 -0400 X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Gary, A quick look in Randall's Pullman-Standard Library Vol. 4 lists the = following lightweight Falls cars: 8402 Balsam Falls 8403 Beech Falls 7159 Birch Falls 8129 Birch Falls (yes, two Birch Falls) 8138 Butternut Falls 7160 Butternut Falls (yes, two Butternut Falls as well) Lots of other Falls, but that's all the B's. Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Mittner=20 To: Frederick Ripley=20 Cc: WAMMP236@aol.com ; John = Frantz ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Falls"-series List, Speaking of "Falls" series of Pullmans. I believe (at least I was told) there was a Beaver Falls. Actually 2 Beaver Falls's over the years. One Heavyweight and one Lightweight. Can someone with Passenger Car knowledge confirm or dispute this and what class cars they were. Thanks, Gary from Beaver Falls, Pa..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Branchline Pullmans Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:18:23 -0400 To: "Stephen Hoxie" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Better yet, the 1954 passenger car roster, with some assignments noted, at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ On Jul 22, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Stephen Hoxie wrote: > Rich wrote: >> >> The 8-1-2 in 1953 were assigned to trains 1, 2,38, 39, 54, 55, 16, 35, > and 36. >> > Chris--There is more. Go to Jerry's Keystone Crossings. Lots of info > in Passenger Ops, 24 Hours at Harrisburg in Sep 1954. Try > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854_2.html > Look for 574 and 575 in the Second and Third Tricks. Two 8-1-2 (or > 8-2-1)Pullmans from train 1 from New York to train 575 to Erie and > Buffalo. Going the other way, they get added to train 20. If you look > at train 1 at 10:12 pm (Second Trick), it shows the names of the cars, > which unfortunately are not the names offered on the Branchline cars. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Terraserver From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:32:34 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com That car had slab sides - not corrugated sides. And it was painted in solid post-war Tuscan with a black roof and underbody, and the obligatory gold striping and lettering. The Rivarossi Budd 10-6 sleeper is modeled after a Union Pacific prototype, although it's far from accurate. CBaker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:05 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Scioto Rapids Hello All, Thanks again to all who contributed info to my question about PRR lounge cars. Now I have a question about a sleeper, the 10-6 Budd-built "Scioto Rapids". I have the Rivarossi model of this car which is painted in a "Congressional"-like, mostly stainless-steel scheme. I assume this is incorrect- other than the various through cars (AT&SF, Cal. Zephyr, MP, etc.) or the rebuilt "Elberton", I have never seen photos of PRR postwar sleepers in colors other than tuscan. Anyone know for sure how "Scioto Rapids" was painted? Thanks, Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon" Subject: [PRR] Q-2 Sound cards Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:28:08 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Group: Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings has a listing of Soundtraxx cards for various PRR locos. Not listed was the Q-2. Any suggestions for the Q-2?? Any other sound systems available for the Q-2? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:18:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70fR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com On Tuesday, July 27, 2004, at 12:02 PM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > As you can tell, I have been taking advantage of my lighter summer > teaching > load to work on my passenger car fleet. So now I have a question about > P70's: I would like to model a couple that would have been used on > secondary trains in the 1960's (to/from Chicago, potentially the > "Admiral", > "Penn. Ltd.", "Manhattan Ltd.", and definitely the "Ft. Pitt.", as > well as > rider coaches on mail trains 45 and 52). > > Is the class above (P70fR) the appropriate one for long-distance > service? > If so, what is available in HO that represents this car pretty > accurately? The 1964 Consists book is available on my Keystone Crossings site as a PDF download. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ As for the trains you mentioned, they had the following coaches: Admiral: P70GS, P85B, rider coach/cabin (pitt-NY only) Penn Ltd: P85B, rider coach (P70GS) Man Ltd.: P85B, rider coach (P70FB phil-NY only) 45, 52: unspecified rider cars ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Colors - Lunar White vs. Yellow From: Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com > I have, for a long time, gone by the term "lunar white" for the color > of lamp used in the Pennsy's three lamp position signals. I wouldn't. (....and the color is the color of the glass, rather thanof the lamp, per se....) > Is lunar white a correct term for the color? I would not use it. (Tho i once wondered the same thing...) Roughly, in signaling there are two 'yellows' and 'lunar white'. (Historically the RRs/signal designers put a LOT of work into coming up with unique, scientifically verifable, defined, 'shades'. 'Signal yellow' is close to 'traffic light yellow. (Tho i believe, in fact, the RR shade came first......anyway...)) RR Yellow: Like a traffic ight. PRR Position Light 'Yellow': was called, by them, 'fog penetrating yellow'. To my eye it is/was paler. More light from the same power, better penetration of fog/smoke. (Like the 'yellow fog lights which used to be on some cars....) tho less distinct, color wise, from a 'white' non signal light. 'lunar white': a 'white-white'. Derives its name from the (non) colour of the moon when 'high'. Used when 'another color' was needed, typically for low speed work. (Used in PRR Pos. light dwarves....) The 'lens' (filter) as originally used has a distinct 'blue' cast: it was derived to make a 'white white' from a 'yellow' oil flame. >Were there lunar white and yellow aspects used on the > Pennsy during the same era? Which era, where on the Pennsy? 8)>> (It was a big RR, Originally Semaphore signalled.) > On the Reading, we had lunar white aspects below the signal that > were used to allow tonnage trains to pass a stop aspect at a > speed allowing the train to stop short of any stopped train, > broken rail, thrown turnout, etc. ... Many roads had/have a similar indication, with an aspect of yellow _plate_, with black 'G' (for grade...) under an existing signal. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Car Roofs Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:10:05 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: <20209D7F-E09C-11D8-AD9F-000A95C04372@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-index: AcR0q2cH0DK5UwFxQQqMKy7h44T43QAB/rxQ Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Jerry, I had always used "balloon", "arch", and "round" roof interchangeably. I am referring to round end versions. The square end version I always refer to as a "streamlined" roof. I know this hardly makes it official, but no one else has responded, so I thought you might want my fiftieth of a dollar. Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:44 AM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Roofs Let's split hairs here on the subject of passenger car roofs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's assume all cars built 1938 and following had "streamline" roofs. And I think we all understand the early "clerestory" roofs. But let's talk about "balloon" vs. "arch" vs. "round" roofs. Are they synonymous? If not, how would you characterize each? I think of the B60b as having a "balloon" roof. I think it's taller than some other round (generically used here) roofs. Is the "arch" roof synonymous with a"round" roof, except that it has squared ends? (Examples: P70GS or P70K.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:00:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cars of interest MOW style From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: List List-Software: LetterRip Pro 4.04 by LetterRip Software, LLC. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-LR-SENT-TO: dsop.com Brian Says: > In the top photo on page 355 two XL Camp Cars are visible behind the FP7. > The third car visible appears to be a X25, X28 or X29. What caught my > attention is the CRECo door mounted directly adjacent to the end ladder > which opened to the left. It also appears the original door opening was > plated over. These changes obviously occurred when the car was modified > for MOW service. Does anyone know why this car was converted or have a better > picture of it. I assume this is more than just a standard tool or material > car. I agree that it looks like a steel car (X25 or X29). I think it is too short to be an X28. Note too the portholes. Based on the layout of the door and windows, and the fact that the next car appears to be a tool car, I'll make a SWAG that this is a cable car, and it is part of the Cresson Wreck train. My guess for the reason that it was used is that the orignal XL became unservicable for some reason and was replaced with this steel car. Likely one of a kind or nearly so... Mind you this is all speculation and without solid reference! Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn AL. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!