Juniata Terminal questions

Thanks Bill >>> Bill; That observation car is possibly a 1938 PRR "Narrows" series car....but = I'ts not a 1949 "View" series.... Have fun! Brian Butcher ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C42F57.5ACDBF30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

<<<

Subject:
From: <billlane@comcast.net>
Date= : Sat, 01=20 May 2004 01:15:52 +0000

We went on a tour of a railroad museum = just=20 across the river in Covington Ky. there are lots of PRR pieces including = the=20 Mountain View Obs.....

http://myweb= pages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_2004.jpg

Thanks
Bill

>>>

Bill;

That observation car is possibly a 1938 PRR "Narrows" series = car....but=20 I'ts not a 1949 "View" series....

Have fun!

Brian Butcher

------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C42F57.5ACDBF30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] Metropolitan View Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:41:28 -0400 <<<< Subject: A little correction From: > Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:56:48 +0000 Hi All, It turns out that I was a little off in my last post. I thought the obs = was Mountian View, but it is the Metropolitan View. >>>> OK...I'll buy that! Anything but Mountain View! Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C42F58.1828EFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

<<<<

Subject: A little correction
From: <billlane@comcast.net>
Date= : Sat, 01=20 May 2004 02:56:48 +0000

Hi All,

It turns out that I was a = little=20 off in my last post. I thought the obs was Mountian View, but it is the=20 Metropolitan View.

>>>>

OK...I'll buy that!

Anything but Mountain View!

Brian

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C42F58.1828EFA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cincinatti Convention X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Anyone who is able to attend. Please post photo's of events, tours, etc.. I am unable to attend because of job. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cincinatti Convention X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Anyone who is able to attend. Please post photo's of events, tours, etc.. I am unable to attend because of job. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Day" Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:31:15 -0400 List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does anybody = market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and numbers = for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also = need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Day" Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:31:15 -0400 List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does anybody = market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and numbers = for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also = need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was to use alcohol from the drugstore that is 90% alcohol. When I asked for some. The Pharmacist had about 4 different varieties to choose from. Isopropyl, rubbing, methyl, ethol, denatured, butyl, etc. He went on to say what each one was used for and so I was so overwhelmed with information. I had no idea which type was what I needed. Could someone please tell me which alcohol type I need ? Thank You, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was to use alcohol from the drugstore that is 90% alcohol. When I asked for some. The Pharmacist had about 4 different varieties to choose from. Isopropyl, rubbing, methyl, ethol, denatured, butyl, etc. He went on to say what each one was used for and so I was so overwhelmed with information. I had no idea which type was what I needed. Could someone please tell me which alcohol type I need ? Thank You, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:02:09 -0400 Doug, You don't say what scale you are working in, but I made the horn bracket = for my N scale RS3 from a pience of Plastruct 3/32" channel filed to = shape. Did not bother with the vertical headlight change. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Day=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does = anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and = numbers for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_013C_01C42FC7.F3CE56C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Doug,

You don't say what scale you are working in, but I = made the=20 horn bracket for my N scale RS3 from a pience of Plastruct 3/32" channel = filed=20 to shape. Did not bother with the vertical headlight = change.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas=20 Day
To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 = 8:31=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn = bracketand dual=20 vertical headlights.

List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. = Also need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical = headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug =

------=_NextPart_000_013C_01C42FC7.F3CE56C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kent Miller" Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 From: "Kent Miller" Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 13:28:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/02/04 If you are not stuck on using alcohol why not use Formula 409; it has done a super job on stuff I have stripped if I leave it immersed for 3-4 days. Hope this helps. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1083518933 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" If you are not stuck on using alcohol why not use Formula 409; it has don= e a super job on stuff I have stripped if I leave it immersed for 3-4 days.=20= Hope this helps. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1083518933-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 19:34:55 +0000 From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Model Power N6b Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:01:57 -0400 Can anyone tell me if the Model Power caboose that resembles the N6b is = still available? Or are they primarily swap meet type finds? =20 I'd like to try my hand at modifying them into credible models. Kris ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4305E.CBB1C220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Can anyone tell me if the Model Power = caboose that=20 resembles the N6b is still available? Or are they primarily swap = meet type=20 finds?

I'd like to try my hand at = modifying them into=20 credible models.

Kris

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4305E.CBB1C220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Too bad, its over.. Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:18:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am just back from the Ohio excursion. Yesterday was very busy with the hit and run trip up to Columbus for the S Spree from the PRR convention. Dan and I would like to thank everyone who came over to see our X29 pilot model. The response was very positive. It made the 4 + hours on the road worthwhile. I got back just in time to find out that the vendor room was all but packed up. Luckily a friend took care of packing up my table. Then it was over to the Cincinnati station for the banquet. Having dinner in the main room was extremely impressive! I mentioned to a few of those who were part of the presentation how I thought it would be awesome and a rare experience to speak on the P A system in that room. It made everything you said sound like you were announcing the arrival of a train. I would have LOVED to try that! Seeing the downtown Cincinnati model again was as impressive as the first time. I may have mentioned (a few hundred times) that is was S Scale! Congrats to Chuck Blardone for his well-deserved award for the total dedication he has provided us as the Keystone editor for the past 20 years. He is truly a diamond in a very large pile of coal...... I would easily estimate this to be in the top 2 PRR conventions I ever have been to. I have missed only 1 since 1989. A good friend usually has something negative to say about the convention by the time we are at the banquet, at which I respond that he should volunteer his time to make next year's convention better. However, he did not have anything negative to say about this year. I am ready willing and hopefully able to go back to the Cincinnati area for another PRR convention at the earliest possible scheduling of the event. Finally, I do not feel that the attendance suffered as I thought it would because it was the farthest west it was ever been. My only regret that I was so busy I did not make it into see the model contest room. I will trade a High Rez CD of all the photos I took to someone who shot a majority of the models in the model room. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:14:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <050220041934.2870.40954D5F000594E300000B362160280748FF929097D1@att.net> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I apologize for my egregious indiscretion! As far as I can tell, the only real difference between the B60 and the B60B is the roof style. At any rate, here is a link to a tracing of the side/end elevation of the B60. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=b60.gif&sel=bagg&sz=sm &fr= Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:35 PM To: Christopher Baker Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question One more time: THIS IS NOT A CLASS B60 BAGGAGE/EXPRESS CAR. THIS IS A CLASS B60B BAGGAGE EXPRESS. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO, AND THE B60B IS FAR MORE COMMON. How many more times do we have to go through this before you people get this right? Ben Hom Chris Baker wrote: Here's a link to the B60 that is part of the collection housed at the Pa. State Railroad Museum. B60's were in use from roughly 1910 - 1971. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-bag-9358.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:57:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Power N6b Yes, I would look at shows before looking at your hobby shop.Check Ebay they seem to always have them. --part1_82.adbad1c.2dc6e4ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Yes, I would look at shows before l= ooking at your hobby shop.Check Ebay they seem to always have them. <= /HTML> --part1_82.adbad1c.2dc6e4ef_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:40:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris >From end to end. the B60b has 4 panels, a door, 3 panels, a door, and then 4 panels. The B60 has 3 panels, a door, 2 panels, a door, and then 3 panels. Also, the B60 had windows which were later plated over. Sometimes you can see evidence of where the window was plated over, and sometimes the entire panel was replaced. There are probably many other differences, but I find these some of the most obvious spotting features. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- ...As far as I can tell, the only real difference between the B60 and the B60B is the roof style... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 20:55:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Never noticed that, Andy. In addition, the PRR B60b stands out from (I believe) almost every baggage car in railroading with a 5 inch deeper or lower side. You can almost pick them out of a train in a picture in a fog. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" > Chris > > From end to end. the B60b has 4 panels, a door, 3 panels, a door, and then 4 > panels. > > The B60 has 3 panels, a door, 2 panels, a door, and then 3 panels. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the List: Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the List: Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 23:07:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Glen Loch, PA station Can anyone supply a reference or source for a picture of this station? Al Guckes --part1_103.449fd41b.2dc7115b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Can anyone supply a reference or source= for a picture of this station?

Al Guckes --part1_103.449fd41b.2dc7115b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:38:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for the annual meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this meeting, from the selection of the facilities to the programming... excellent! The hotel offered free wireless networking, which was a major plus for several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen porting a laptop around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, to reach manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! The station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the presentation room at the station afterwards was excellent. I know there were some members who could not make it this year due to job and family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised their hands when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not. Shame on you!!! The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and was shooting for 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic success and obviously opened the door for future Lines West meetings! (Although my personal opinion is that it should only be considered in 5+ year intervals.) This year I recognized more names than I had ever noticed before from the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new faces as well as re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK and the "longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in Australia. Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in Warsaw, Ind. I regret seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many may have overlooked this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated a whole new way of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an entire year's worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of data, including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the loco numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he charted the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener. Ken Douglas and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their excellent presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn & Teller at times! Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts and taking pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you thinking? I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now have original paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan Red. There was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself into a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the most interested in working with us and that good things are coming. Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to honor that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be working with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred) indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It was suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum was not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N scale? I'll have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run and did not take the time to do it at the convention as originally planned. Finally, many thanks to all who attended and brought your business my way. I really appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:38:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for the annual meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this meeting, from the selection of the facilities to the programming... excellent! The hotel offered free wireless networking, which was a major plus for several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen porting a laptop around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, to reach manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! The station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the presentation room at the station afterwards was excellent. I know there were some members who could not make it this year due to job and family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised their hands when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not. Shame on you!!! The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and was shooting for 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic success and obviously opened the door for future Lines West meetings! (Although my personal opinion is that it should only be considered in 5+ year intervals.) This year I recognized more names than I had ever noticed before from the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new faces as well as re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK and the "longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in Australia. Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in Warsaw, Ind. I regret seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many may have overlooked this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated a whole new way of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an entire year's worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of data, including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the loco numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he charted the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener. Ken Douglas and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their excellent presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn & Teller at times! Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts and taking pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you thinking? I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now have original paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan Red. There was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself into a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the most interested in working with us and that good things are coming. Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to honor that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be working with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred) indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It was suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum was not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N scale? I'll have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run and did not take the time to do it at the convention as originally planned. Finally, many thanks to all who attended and brought your business my way. I really appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:03:52 -0500 Jerry: Thank you for your post and kind words about my presentation. I hope to = get as many as 2 articles submitted to the Keystone within the year. For = now, I will be taking a break and enjoy running my layout before I start = working on the research again.=20 This was my first PRRT&HS Convention and all I can say is WOW! It was = great to meet allot people from the PRRT&HS and from PRR-Talk. Great to = put names with faces! I am still AWESTRUCK from my experiences at = Cincinnati Union Station. I have never been there before and was floored = by this architectural GEM. From the main concourse to Tower A to the = S-scale models of Cincinnati.........WOW, WOW, WOW!!! While I don't model N-scale, you mentioned earlier that there was going = to be an announcement for a new product in N-scale at the convention = this year involve something from the late '40's and early '50's. Was it = announced? I have a sneaking suspicion on what it may be (hint: 100 = feet)=20 Ted =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Britton=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST=20 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for the annual=20 meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this meeting,=20 from the selection of the facilities to the programming... excellent! The hotel offered free wireless networking, which was a major plus for = several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen porting a laptop=20 around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, to reach=20 manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! The = station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the=20 presentation room at the station afterwards was excellent. I know there were some members who could not make it this year due to=20 job and family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised=20 their hands when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not.=20 Shame on you!!! The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and=20 was shooting for 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic=20 success and obviously opened the door for future Lines West meetings!=20 (Although my personal opinion is that it should only be considered in=20 5+ year intervals.) This year I recognized more names than I had ever noticed before from=20 the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new faces as well as=20 re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK and the=20 "longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in Australia. Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in Warsaw, Ind. I regret = seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many may have overlooked=20 this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated a whole new = way=20 of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an entire year's = worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of data,=20 including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the loco=20 numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he = charted=20 the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener. Ken Douglas and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their=20 excellent presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn &=20 Teller at times! Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts and taking=20 pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you thinking?=20 I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now have original=20 paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan Red. There was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling=20 Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself = into=20 a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the = most=20 interested in working with us and that good things are coming.=20 Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to = honor=20 that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be working=20 with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred)=20 indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It was=20 suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless=20 herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum was=20 not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N scale? I'll have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run=20 and did not take the time to do it at the convention as originally=20 planned. Finally, many thanks to all who attended and brought your business my=20 way. I really appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C430ED.8E7F3420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Jerry:

Thank you for your post and kind words about my presentation. I = hope to get=20 as many as 2 articles submitted to the Keystone within the year. For = now, I will=20 be taking a break and enjoy running my layout before I start working on = the=20 research again.

This was my first PRRT&HS Convention and all I can say is WOW! = It was=20 great to meet allot people from the PRRT&HS and from PRR-Talk. Great = to put=20 names with faces! I am still AWESTRUCK from my experiences at Cincinnati = Union=20 Station. I have never been there before and was floored by this = architectural=20 GEM. From the main concourse to Tower A to the S-scale models of=20 Cincinnati.........WOW, WOW, WOW!!!

While I don't model N-scale, you mentioned earlier that = there was=20 going to be an announcement for a new product in N-scale at=20 the convention this year involve something from the late '40's and = early=20 '50's. Was it announced? I have a sneaking suspicion on what it may = be=20 (hint: 100 feet)

Ted

----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Britton

To: PRR-Talk LIST

Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 7:38 = AM

Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting=20 Comments

Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for = the=20 annual
meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this = meeting,=20
from the selection of the facilities to the programming...=20 excellent!

The hotel offered free wireless networking, which = was a=20 major plus for
several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen = porting=20 a laptop
around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, = to reach=20
manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! = The=20
station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the=20
presentation room at the station afterwards was = excellent.

I know=20 there were some members who could not make it this year due to
job = and=20 family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised =
their hands=20 when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not.
Shame on = you!!!=20 The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and
was shooting = for=20 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic
success and = obviously=20 opened the door for future Lines West meetings!
(Although my = personal=20 opinion is that it should only be considered in
5+ year=20 intervals.)

This year I recognized more names than I had ever = noticed=20 before from
the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new = faces as=20 well as
re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK = and the=20
"longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in=20 Australia.

Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in = Warsaw,=20 Ind. I regret
seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many = may have=20 overlooked
this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated = a whole=20 new way
of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an = entire=20 year's
worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of = data,=20
including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the = loco=20
numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he = charted=20
the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener.

Ken = Douglas=20 and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their
excellent=20 presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn & =
Teller at=20 times!

Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts = and=20 taking
pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you=20 thinking?
I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now = have=20 original
paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan = Red.

There=20 was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling=20
Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself = into=20
a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the = most=20
interested in working with us and that good things are coming.=20
Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to = honor=20
that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be = working=20
with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred)=20
indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It = was=20
suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless=20
herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum = was=20
not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N = scale?

I'll=20 have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run =
and did=20 not take the time to do it at the convention as originally=20
planned.

Finally, many thanks to all who attended and = brought your=20 business my
way. I really appreciate=20 = it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jer= ry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania= =20 Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - = Home of=20 the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandis= e=20 Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com<= /A>

----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C430ED.8E7F3420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:07:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <423A57E3-9D0B-11D8-802D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: At the annual meeting both John Ryan and John Farqueharson were asking what the "(X)" meant in the report of a passenger consist. This was coming from their recent reading of the Stegmaeir book of 1952 consists. It comes up as well in my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" essay from 1954. My recollection from years ago from PRR-talk was that it meant the car was sealed, locked, etc. Unfortunately, any attempt to search the archives for "X" will likely return and awful lot of false positives!!! Anyway, I did some quick research and very quickly determined (definitively) that it means "as needed". So the car didn't have to be included, but ran only when needed. Unrelated: I did get numerous compliments on the fact that the PRR-talk archive allows very fast searching over 37,000+ messages. Only this week did I learn from several sources that YeeHaa now only searches back over the most recent few hundred posts (one person, a YeeHaa list owner, said 200). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:33:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Brick Sheathing at VIEW Tower From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm guessing about a year ago we were discussing when the brick sheathing was applied over the wood at several towers. My interest was VIEW tower at Duncannon. The best guess was very early 1960's. At the annual meeting there was a vendor selling Conrail-covered files -- some 3" thick -- containing the histories of various towers...full of all sorts of info. For instance, in the MO package I purchased, I can tell you when the toilet facilities were upgraded and at what cost! Yes, nauseating detail! Anyway, I picked up a package on VIEW as well. I haven't read through it, but I did spot a letter authorizing the brick sheathing over the wood at VIEW in 1957. That's a bit earlier than we expected. I'll report back if I find an actual "done" date. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:51:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 11:01:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> Unrelated: I did get numerous compliments on the fact that the >> PRR-talk >> archive allows very fast searching over 37,000+ messages. Only this >> week did I learn from several sources that YeeHaa now only searches >> back over the most recent few hundred posts (one person, a YeeHaa list >> owner, said 200). > > It's a sliding window of 200 posts; You can hit "next" and "previous" > to > move the window; It's just annoying, not impossible. That makes more sense. I found it hard to believe otherwise. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:17:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 10:01 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > >> On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jerry Britton wrote: >> >>> Unrelated: I did get numerous compliments on the fact that the >>> PRR-talk >>> archive allows very fast searching over 37,000+ messages. Only this >>> week did I learn from several sources that YeeHaa now only searches >>> back over the most recent few hundred posts (one person, a YeeHaa >>> list >>> owner, said 200). >> >> It's a sliding window of 200 posts; You can hit "next" and "previous" >> to >> move the window; It's just annoying, not impossible. > > That makes more sense. I found it hard to believe otherwise. Thanks. It sure does take a LONG time to search 30,000 messages 200 at a time! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] H. S. Kerbaugh, H. K. Porter, PRR projects (long) From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 10:46 PM, robert netzlof wrote: > What may be more interesting were the destinations and dates. In > several cases I know from other sources that PRR was doing major work > at the places noted and around the dates given. Others I just don't > know. Here's the list: > Chickies....... 1906 Nov 2 > McCalls Ferry.. 1906 Nov 2 These locomotives were most likely being used for the construction of the Atglen and Susquehanna (A&S) and some line improvements on the Columbia and Port Deposit necessitated by the building of the A&S. In fact the locos for Chickies may have been used to build the Shocks Mills bridge and approaches. Photos of some of them are in Fred Abendschein's article on the A&S in the Keystone. IIRC, many were abandoned when the work was completed. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:41:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b Question From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 06:24 PM, Christopher Baker wrote: > Here's a link to the B60 that is part of the collection housed at the > Pa. > State Railroad Museum. B60's were in use from roughly 1910 - 1971. > > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-bag-9358.jpg Since we have covered the B60 vs B60B issue already , then I will just point out that the car in the photo is equipped for messenger service (i.e. carrying a messenger) as denoted by the star on the side, and the vents in the roof. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:09:02 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 13:28:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO GP7's Coming From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <5CF324DC-9D27-11D8-802D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PSA... Atlas has announced another run of HO scale GP7's, with two Pennsy numbers, due in October. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GP7's Coming Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:22:33 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GP7's Coming Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:52:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - thank you X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to all who answered my question about stripping paint on Proto 2000 body shells! Your assistance is greatly appreciated. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] S Scale N6 Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 19:21:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I heard that there was an awesome S Scale N6 in the PRR convention contest room. Unfortunately I did not make it to see the models. Hopefully the member who built it is either a member here or someone knows who he is. I would like to contact him about including a photo of the model in a magazine article for an S Scale publication. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production of the REA version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 21:42:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Atlas HO GP7 Atlas has just announced another release of the "GEEP 7" http://www.atlasrr.com/HOLoco/hogp72.htm Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1083634976 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Atlas has just announced another release of the "GEEP 7"

http://www.atlasrr= .com/HOLoco/hogp72.htm

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487=
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003

-------------------------------1083634976-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:32:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/03/04 In a message dated 5/3/04 1:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Questions -- Lines West help needed > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 > > Greetings to Jerry and the List: > > Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in > Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video > in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam > engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their > trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, > crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line > and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th > St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > Dan, My memory suggests passenger power was serviced fairly close (16th Street enginehouse). However (as you know) my memories only go back into diesel days. If so, this was in the shadow of the St. Charles Airline bridge, at the south end of 12th Street coach yards. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_116.321bf8d8.2dc8d934_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 5/3/04 1:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:<= BR>

Subject: Questions -- Lines Wes= t help needed
From: "Dan Cupper" <cupper@att.net>
Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400

Greetings to Jerry and the List:

Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in
Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam
engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their
trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge,
crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line=20=
and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th
St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct?

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

Dan,

My memory suggests passenger power was serviced fairly close (16th Street en= ginehouse). However (as you know) my memories only go back into diesel= days. If so, this was in the shadow of the St. Charles Airline bridge= , at the south end of 12th Street coach yards.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_116.321bf8d8.2dc8d934_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:37:07 -0400 I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Juniata Terminal questions

I'm looking for some of the history of = Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has = my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell = me...

*When was this structure built
*What was the original name
*What was the original purpose
*How was the location switched = out
*Track plan available?
*What is the address of this = location

I would find any history related to = this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to = my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a = tour I would like to attend as well

Thanks

Kenny

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:37:07 -0400 I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Juniata Terminal questions

I'm looking for some of the history of = Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has = my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell = me...

*When was this structure built
*What was the original name
*What was the original purpose
*How was the location switched = out
*Track plan available?
*What is the address of this = location

Thanks

Kenny

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The MP229's report what locos are assigned to what divisions. The listings include the road number, class, and a number signifying the foreman in charge of maintenance of the loco. The front of the MP229 has a list of all of those foreman numbers and cross references them to the actual names of the foremen. Question is, is there some place that cross references those foremen with the actual location? For instance, foremen codes starting with 0, 1, and 2 are in the Eastern Region. If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, which I suspect is Enola. While a cross reference for the entire system would be nice, if anyone knows all of the codes for Harrisburg and/or Enola, I'd love to hear from you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The MP229's report what locos are assigned to what divisions. The listings include the road number, class, and a number signifying the foreman in charge of maintenance of the loco. The front of the MP229 has a list of all of those foreman numbers and cross references them to the actual names of the foremen. Question is, is there some place that cross references those foremen with the actual location? For instance, foremen codes starting with 0, 1, and 2 are in the Eastern Region. If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, which I suspect is Enola. While a cross reference for the entire system would be nice, if anyone knows all of the codes for Harrisburg and/or Enola, I'd love to hear from you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 13:31:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PR freight schedules From: Frederick Ripley X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Subject: [PRR] Updated N.E. Proto Meet info. -- June 4-5 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:31:06 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD00E2@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Who designed the PRR Keystone logo??? Thread-Index: AcQphEemlbiaItgoRDK2n0JKyPZRUwIgYJWQ From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2004 18:31:07.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7431350:01C43205] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Northeast/New England=09 Prototype Modelers Meet=09 June 4-5, 2004 =20 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. each day =09 Canton Community Center =09 40 Dyer Avenue, Collinsville, CT=09 Meet cost: $20 in advance, $25 at door For more information, contact=20 Dave Owens at dowens@courant.com=20 or 203-757-8663 Please remember that the heart of the meet is the model dislay. Bring = your models, finished and unfinished, to display in the model room. = There's no judging. The goal is to share information and techniques. We'll also have some dealers on Saturday. Also, as a bonus to people arriving early, Bill Schneider of Branchline = Trains will open the Branchline factory for tours on Thursday evening. = Email or call me for details. Scheduled programs include: Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey. Learn Mike's = techniques, and then employ them in a hands-on clinic. Bring a model and = if possible a prototype photo of it. Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau. Roger's scratchbuilt Schnable = car was a big hit last year. This year he's working on a dockside = container crane and will offer a hands-on clinic. Bring tools. Prototype intermodal operations with Ramon C. Rhodes. Ramon will show = how the prototype railroads do it, and how you can do it on your model = railroad. Modeling catenary with Rick Abramson. Rick is a well-known New Haven = modeler whose catenary layout is scheduled to be featured in the August = Model Railroader. The milk market for the PRR, RDG and CNJ with John Greene. John is the = owner of Bethlehem Car Works. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett. George is the owner of Sheepscot = Scale Models, producer of fine vehicle, structure and maritime kits. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman. You may know Victor as a = first-class modeler and author whose work has graced several magazines. Resin casting with Ben Brown. Ben will reprise his popular clinic from = last year. Cool things to model with Den Lippert. Den will present interesting = things he's spotted on his railfanning journeys. Modeling a MEC/Guilford U18B with Mike Rose. Mike recently completed one = of these GE units and will show you how to build one. The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick. The title says it all.=20 New England milk trains with Don Valentine of New England Rail Service. = Don will also lead a workshop on kitbashing Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers and = other cars. Bring a car to work on! Pullman Cars with Al Hoffman. Al will talk about the cars that each = railroad operated when the feds broke up the Pullman Co.=20 Also featuring Tom Nanos, Bob LaMay, Pete McLachlan, Jeff Hanke, Jim = Tylick, Dave Geisler, Al Westerfield, Neil Gage and J.P. Barger. Northeast/New England=09 Prototype Modelers Meet=09 June 4-5, 2004 =20 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. each day =09 Canton Community Center =09 40 Dyer Avenue, Collinsville, CT=09 Meet cost: $20 in advance, $25 at door For more information, contact=20 Dave Owens at dowens@courant.com=20 or 203-757-8663 Please remember that the heart of the meet is the model dislay. Bring = your models, finished and unfinished, to display in the model room. = There's no judging. The goal is to share information and techniques. We'll also have some dealers on Saturday. Also, as a bonus to people arriving early, Bill Schneider of Branchline = Trains will open the Branchline factory for tours on Thursday evening. = Email or call me for details. Scheduled programs include: Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey. Learn Mike's = techniques, and then employ them in a hands-on clinic. Bring a model and = if possible a prototype photo of it. Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau. Roger's scratchbuilt Schnable = car was a big hit last year. This year he's working on a dockside = container crane and will offer a hands-on clinic. Bring tools. Prototype intermodal operations with Ramon C. Rhodes. Ramon will show = how the prototype railroads do it, and how you can do it on your model = railroad. Modeling catenary with Rick Abramson. Rick is a well-known New Haven = modeler whose catenary layout is scheduled to be featured in the August = Model Railroader. The milk market for the PRR, RDG and CNJ with John Greene. John is the = owner of Bethlehem Car Works. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett. George is the owner of Sheepscot = Scale Models, producer of fine vehicle, structure and maritime kits. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman. You may know Victor as a = first-class modeler and author whose work has graced several magazines. Resin casting with Ben Brown. Ben will reprise his popular clinic from = last year. Cool things to model with Den Lippert. Den will present interesting = things he's spotted on his railfanning journeys. Modeling a MEC/Guilford U18B with Mike Rose. Mike recently completed one = of these GE units and will show you how to build one. The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick. The title says it all.=20 New England milk trains with Don Valentine of New England Rail Service. = Don will also lead a workshop on kitbashing Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers and = other cars. Bring a car to work on! Pullman Cars with Al Hoffman. Al will talk about the cars that each = railroad operated when the feds broke up the Pullman Co.=20 Also featuring Tom Nanos, Bob LaMay, Pete McLachlan, Jeff Hanke, Jim = Tylick, Dave Geisler, Al Westerfield, Neil Gage and J.P. Barger. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 15:02:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people seem to think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my age, of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey - our eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a convention, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions of that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in a heartbeat! Just one SPF's opinion! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe overgrowth Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:44:52 +0000 Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:18:19 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Obs. Louis Sockalexis Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers- Can anyone provide any info on PRR Obs. Louis Sockalexis? I cannot find it listed anywhere in my library. TIA. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:40:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/2/04 10:56:03 PM, ajc5150@insightbb.com writes: << Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? >> Dan - Don't know if it helps, but I was just clicking through the cable channels and came to AMC. They are running a movie (several times, it appears) called "Silver Streak." It has been a long time since I watched this but, IIRC, there is a scene at the end where the train is moving through a Chicago yard and, eventually, into the terminal (actually, INTO the terminal, ala Washington, DC). I forget whether it is the Pennsy terminal or the other one but it may be of interest, either way. But, I seem to remember that, when I watched the flick, I thought about the times I rode the Pennsy into Chicago. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] ID this car Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 23:02:18 -0500 Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped. Is this some kind of = coffee-shop lounge car or what? = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D31916= 17459&rd=3D1 Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4322B.D938FE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has = me=20 stumped. Is this some kind of coffee-shop lounge car or = what? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi= ewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1

Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4322B.D938FE30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 06:42:44 -0400 To: "Bob Zoeller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 5, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped.=A0 Is this some kind = =20 > of coffee-shop lounge car or what?=A0 =20 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?=20 > ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1 If you can ask and supply the road number we can ascertain what it =20 "purports to be". With a number you can do a lookup in the Varnish =20 database on Keystone Crossings. Several of its characteristics -- the roof shape, the porthole window, =20= etc. -- suggest it is one of the 1938-39 diners. It is NOT one of the =20= P70c/P70d cars. Even for a kitchen area, there are usually more windows down the full =20= length of the car. This one does not have that, opening the door that =20= it might have a dorm in one end. Did you check the elevations on Rob's site? I didn't have the time to =20= do so at present. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:10:33 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ken, Juniata terminal Company was formerly the Frankford Terminal Freight House recieving perishable goods and LCL freight. Most likely built in the 1920's due to its construction, with cranes added later. The location was most likely switched by a local crew, track access is from the "0" Conrail Freight track off of Frankford Junction. As far as the original track arrangement, 3 tracks entered the building as they do now. with a forth paralleling the side of the building where the baggage car and N8 sit now. The unoccupied area north of these tracks and the NEC were probably once a yard. I can't give you an exact address but if you mapquest it its near the intersection of Tioga Ave. and the NEC. Bennett would be able to answer some of these questions at a greater length. From what I know, he has working drawings of the building. Best Regards, John "Ken Nesbitt" wrote: I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:58:40 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My rural, small post office has a poster on the wall listing what you can ship (baby chix, books, some kinds of paint, etc.) and what you can't ( explosives, guns, big chickens, dogs!). FWIW, anything weighing over a pound in weight actually goes on a FedEx or UPS plane, not a passenger airliner. Jim McDaniel, who has no chickens of any kind on the property, in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] B60b questions From: Frederick Ripley Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:11:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 05:42 AM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > On May 5, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > >> Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped.=A0 Is this some = kind =20 >> of coffee-shop lounge car or what?=A0 =20 >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/=20 >> eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1 > > If you can ask and supply the road number we can ascertain what it =20 > "purports to be". With a number you can do a lookup in the Varnish =20 > database on Keystone Crossings. > > Several of its characteristics -- the roof shape, the porthole window, = =20 > etc. -- suggest it is one of the 1938-39 diners. It is NOT one of the =20= > P70c/P70d cars. > > Even for a kitchen area, there are usually more windows down the full =20= > length of the car. This one does not have that, opening the door that =20= > it might have a dorm in one end. The model appears to have a vestibule on both ends, opening the door =20 that it might not have been a diner at all, but was rebuilt from =20 some P70 class...It certainly would be helpful to have a view of the =20 other side too... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:24:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > With the new B60b's coming out, I have a couple of questions: > > -did these handle checked baggage, as well as express? > > -I believe I read/heard that the version with vents on the roof > carried an > express messenger- is this correct? It didn't have to carry a messenger, but could. It was equipped with vents for air flow, a toilet, and a desk. > > -Any other different uses between the two? (vent vs no vents) I think otherwise they were the same. > What were > the respective nos. on the roster? I have the 1954 roster online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Set the Class = B60b . This will return all B60b's. To find just the vented cars, also set Type = Baggage Express Messenger . To find just the non-vented cars, also set Type = Baggage Express . Again, this is as of 1954. Some of these cars likely did not make it to the mid-1960's, though many (most?) did. > By the mid-60's, which I model, what > would be an appropriate balance between the two? Can't help here. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 10:03:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:12:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions From: Frederick Ripley From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b questions Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 10:44:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <81F7D9CE-9E97-11D8-96A2-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The other differences were: - interior, the car also had a safe - exterior (more to the point for modeling), The car was identified by a star above the "Railway Express" legend Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:24 AM To: Frederick Ripley Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > With the new B60b's coming out, I have a couple of questions: > > -did these handle checked baggage, as well as express? > > -I believe I read/heard that the version with vents on the roof > carried an > express messenger- is this correct? It didn't have to carry a messenger, but could. It was equipped with=20 vents for air flow, a toilet, and a desk. > > -Any other different uses between the two? (vent vs no vents) I think otherwise they were the same. > What were > the respective nos. on the roster? I have the 1954 roster online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Set the Class =3D B60b . This will return all B60b's. To find just the vented cars, also set Type =3D Baggage Express = Messenger=20 . To find just the non-vented cars, also set Type =3D Baggage Express . Again, this is as of 1954. Some of these cars likely did not make it to=20 the mid-1960's, though many (most?) did. > By the mid-60's, which I model, what > would be an appropriate balance between the two? Can't help here. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:52:33 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >>>From: k4sb@niia.net >>>Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >>>Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:52:33 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >>>From: k4sb@niia.net >>>Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >>>Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yep. US Mail still handles sundry live critters. Baby chicks, other bay fowl (pheasants, etc...) do fine in overnight (express.) Live Lobstah, suitably packaged goes express. Sundry Approved Insects (butterflies, etc, with inspections) also travel by mail... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:38:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In reading the description, that it was custom PRR painted, my interpretation is that car was some other railroad's prototype, that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in error. Of course the missing box would explain things. Obviously not a normal diner, because no windows for diners. Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:49:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] ALTO Tower,1964 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings At the PRRT&HS meet in Cincinnati,I picked up some old files on Alto,JD-ConPitt,and Rose interlockings. I just read through some of the files for ALTO Tower and came across some shocking info. In 1964, PRR management had made the decision to tare down ALTO Tower and build a new "fireproof" ALTO Tower directly across the tracks from the old location. The new ALTO would have been a one story Armco metal building. According to the paperwork in this file, the PRR did not want to spend $160.000 to rewire the interlocking and the project was dropped from PRR's 1965 Capital Improvement Program. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:10:55 -0400 From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:04:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <532E8AC6-9F66-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR freight car classes? Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, as in GLa vs. Gla GLca vs. Glca ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:15:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, If the brown book you refer to is the NJ Intl. passenger plan book, please see page 66. It was one of 5 rebuilt for Jersey commuter service. No doubt this "captive service" unit was not familiar to many of the listers. Just don't get that sort of thing on Lines West !! For those who do not have the book; cars 1105, 1106,1108, 1109,1110, were the ones converted. The seating was in 2 arrangements: 30 coach / 24 dining & 40 coach / 16 dining. Those modeling the Long Branch operations into NYC would find this a unique piece for the collection. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:10 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car > > Would this car be in a Brown Book? > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:38 PM > To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; jerry@pennsyrr.com > Cc: bobspf@wi.rr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car > > > In reading the description, that it was custom PRR painted, > my interpretation is that car was some other railroad's prototype, > that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in error. > > Of course the missing box would explain things. > > Obviously not a normal diner, because no windows for diners. > > Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:27:06 -0400 From: Fred in Vt. [mailto:pennsy@sover.net] Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car RE: [PRR] ID this car

Not the Brown Book I was talking about but if it = answered the question do I get the credit? There is a book called = The Brown Book of Brass ... It supposedly has pictures of all the = brass that was imported but it may only be locos. Not sure!

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred in Vt. [mailto:pennsy@sover.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:15 AM
To: Chany, Christopher; prr-talk@dsop.com
Cc: Bruce F. Smith; Bob Zoeller
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car

Chris,
If = the brown book you refer to is the NJ Intl. passenger plan book,
please see page 66. It was one of 5 rebuilt for = Jersey commuter service. No
doubt this "captive service" unit was not = familiar to many of the listers.
Just don't get that sort of thing on Lines West = !!

For = those who do not have the book; cars 1105, 1106,1108,
1109,1110, were the ones converted. The seating was = in 2 arrangements: 30
coach / 24 dining & 40 coach / 16 dining. Those = modeling the Long Branch
operations into NYC would find this a unique piece = for the collection.

Fred in Vt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chany, Christopher" = <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car

>
> Would this car be in a Brown Book?
>
> Chris Chany
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; = jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Cc: bobspf@wi.rr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car
>
>
> In reading the description, that it was custom = PRR painted,
> my interpretation is that car was some other = railroad's prototype,
> that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in = error.
>
> Of course the missing box would explain = things.
>
> Obviously not a normal diner, because no = windows for diners.
>
> Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974
>
>
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4337E.96D12000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:26:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Freight Roster Online From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yesterday I cumulated all of the data in the January 1955 ORER (which had 10/1/54 data from the Pennsy) to determine how many cars of each class/subclass were in service. This information is useful for filling out layout rosters if you are modeling the 1950's. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/54_fleet/ . I'm now adding in known models in HO or N scale, based on the class the manufacturer of the model paints on it (even if its wrong, but noting that). I know I am missing some HO models that I have to dig for -- the Rail Works flats that were released and the Branchline box cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <64E69FDC-9F72-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for cement? I kind of doubt it. Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? Need a dozen in N scale, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <64E69FDC-9F72-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for cement? I kind of doubt it. Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? Need a dozen in N scale, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:32:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:04 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR > freight car classes? > > Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". > > And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, > as in > Jerry, All caps when lettered on the car, including the subclass, which was a smaller sized stencil. I tend toward all caps when writing the classes in text, when I remember. > > GLa vs. Gla > GLca vs. Glca How about GLA and GLCA Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:52:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially the tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate on the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:03:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 11:52 AM, William Bigler wrote: > Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially > the > tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate > on > the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. I have about 100 pics to post... layouts and the Cincinnati Union Terminal and Tower A. Unfortunately, the [expletive deleted] grass is growing faster than I can cut it!!! Will probably be this weekend yet until I get to it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 10:52 AM, William Bigler wrote: > Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially > the > tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate > on > the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. Bill, I hope to have a few up tonight I have a bunch from the tours, plus some from the display rooms. BTW, can anyone remind me of a few things about the Museum in Kentucky we visited? I seem to have misplaced my handout! What were the names of the 2 Pullmans right by where we entered? Also, what was the name and contact information for the museum (ie address) Thanx Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:16:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Those two Pullmans were: "Jovita" (closest to gate) and "Overdale." Jovita was built 1914 and Overdale built 1928. It's the Railway Museum of Great Cincinnati, P.O. Box 15065, Covington, KY 41015. It was a great meeting, wasn't it?! The presentations were well-done, the Railway Museum was great and the final dinner in the CUT was awesome. I had a great time and thank the Cincinnati group for organizing such a neat event. I'm looking forward to next year in Pa and also hoping to see a meeting in Chicago in the near future..... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR PS After the meeting I did some exploring around southern Ohio and Xenia. I discovered that the South Charleston Heritage Commission group is arranging a charter train trip from South Charleston up to Springfield on the old DT&I track and also to Mechanicsburg and Jeffersonville on May 22. I'd give my eye-teeth to take this trip but can't because I live in Oregon but those of you in the Midwest might want to check it out. (Tel 937-462-7277). > BTW, can anyone remind me of a few things about the Museum in Kentucky > we visited? I seem to have misplaced my handout! What were the names > of the 2 Pullmans right by where we entered? Also, what was the name > and contact information for the museum (ie address) > > Thanx > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:33:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Freight Roster Online In a message dated 5/6/2004 11:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: I know I am missing some HO models that I have to dig for -- the Rail Works flats that were released and the Branchline box cars. Jerry, The Branchline cars as X43b, X43c, X44 all in both CK and SK and the GAEX lease cars. Rich Orr -------------------------------1083868402 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 5/6/2004 11:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pe= nnsyrr.com writes:

I know I am missing some HO models that I have= to dig for -- the Rail
Works flats that were released and the Branchlin= e box cars.

Jerry,

The Branchline cars as X43b, X43c, X44 all in both CK and SK and the GA= EX lease cars.

Rich Orr

-------------------------------1083868402-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Setting out sleepers Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:36:20 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Setting out sleepers Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:36:20 +0000 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:38:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes The gray matter isn't up to speed yet. Classes and subclasses are specified in an FRA or AAR (ARA) practice. I have noticed that many roads indiscriminately interchanged upper and lower case lettering for the second letter in the class. The recommended practice was to use caps for the first two letters for the type of car and then lower case after the second letter to specify a subclass. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1083868734 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

The gray matter isn't up to speed yet. Classes and s= ubclasses are specified in an FRA or AAR (ARA) practice. I have=20= noticed that many roads indiscriminately interchanged upper and lower c= ase lettering for the second letter in the class. The recommended= practice was to use caps for the first two letters for the type of car= and then lower case after the second letter to specify a subclass.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1083868734-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:01:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation From: Frederick Ripley From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/6/04 3:18:34 PM, fjr@mchsi.com writes: << The "Pennsy Streamliners" book has some good info about the declining years of passenger service, and in several cases makes the judgement that the RR cut or consolidated a trains with pretty good patronage and not bad financial health (the "Red Arrow" for instance). And on the trains that kept running, one can see the deterioration: dropped sleepers, diner/lounges replaced with snack bar coaches, etc. But clearly the road didn't wholly give up, like SP or probably NYC, and of the east-west fleet at least the "Broadway" and "General" (the "Spirit of St. Louis" seems more questionable- anyone have first hand experience from later years?) provided fine service to the end. >> ************************ Fred - I was based in Cleveland for about 6 months before I was promoted to NYC, in about December, 1963. My fiance lived in Philadelphia (we were married while I was based in Cleveland) and I rode on my Pennsy pass almost every weekend to PHL. There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and we'd arrive early in the morning. The deterioration you speak of started, in my mind, about the time I left Cleveland. I took two graduate courses at, then, Western Reserve University and finished the requirements of both before reporting to NYC. My new wife took one graduate course at WRU but had to return to Cleveland to take her final exam. After some analysis, it was evident that it worked better all around if she simply flew United Airlines LGA/CLE/LGA. And, if it was obvious to me that flying was a better alternative, it must have been obvious to a lot of people. I was based at Penn Station in NYC from then to 10/66 when I went to work for American Airlines. In the years I was in Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Cleveland, I went back east frequently, often leaving the office Friday afternoon and catching a westbound train late Sunday afternoon. In those days, Pennsylvania was a dry state and one could not buy a drink on the Pennsy on Sunday on a train in the state of Pennsylvania. Thus, most of us developed the habit, whether we drank or not, of carrying a pint of bourbon to ease the Sunday journey through Pennsylvania. It is a habit that I maintained for many years during my international travel. This liquor issue, however, did not, I believe, harm the Pennsy because passenegr aircraft flying over Pennsylvania on Sundays also had to close the bar. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/6/04 3:18:34 PM, fjr@mchsi.com writes: << The "Pennsy Streamliners" book has some good info about the declining years of passenger service, and in several cases makes the judgement that the RR cut or consolidated a trains with pretty good patronage and not bad financial health (the "Red Arrow" for instance). And on the trains that kept running, one can see the deterioration: dropped sleepers, diner/lounges replaced with snack bar coaches, etc. But clearly the road didn't wholly give up, like SP or probably NYC, and of the east-west fleet at least the "Broadway" and "General" (the "Spirit of St. Louis" seems more questionable- anyone have first hand experience from later years?) provided fine service to the end. >> ************************ Fred - I was based in Cleveland for about 6 months before I was promoted to NYC, in about December, 1963. My fiance lived in Philadelphia (we were married while I was based in Cleveland) and I rode on my Pennsy pass almost every weekend to PHL. There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and we'd arrive early in the morning. The deterioration you speak of started, in my mind, about the time I left Cleveland. I took two graduate courses at, then, Western Reserve University and finished the requirements of both before reporting to NYC. My new wife took one graduate course at WRU but had to return to Cleveland to take her final exam. After some analysis, it was evident that it worked better all around if she simply flew United Airlines LGA/CLE/LGA. And, if it was obvious to me that flying was a better alternative, it must have been obvious to a lot of people. I was based at Penn Station in NYC from then to 10/66 when I went to work for American Airlines. In the years I was in Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Cleveland, I went back east frequently, often leaving the office Friday afternoon and catching a westbound train late Sunday afternoon. In those days, Pennsylvania was a dry state and one could not buy a drink on the Pennsy on Sunday on a train in the state of Pennsylvania. Thus, most of us developed the habit, whether we drank or not, of carrying a pint of bourbon to ease the Sunday journey through Pennsylvania. It is a habit that I maintained for many years during my international travel. This liquor issue, however, did not, I believe, harm the Pennsy because passenegr aircraft flying over Pennsylvania on Sundays also had to close the bar. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:22:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 23:36:21.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[EFD25EF0:01C433C2] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all As you found out in Cincy, I am far from expert. Kind of like "Brunswick Green" being a PRR designation. Kind of like the Tuscan Red switcher (shifter) controversy several years ago. But, having said that. Why don't we all agree to use what seems like a logical solution until proven otherwise? GLa GLca H9 H9s Until someone who can document otherwise, tells us different. And every time someone asks this question again, for the millionth time, the answer should be as stated. And please don't take offense, those of you who ask this question. A lot of questions come up from time to time that have already been asked and answered. And heaven help us if we become like a well known MR magazine that are such snobs that all they can do is say "the answer is in such and such a book, available from our shipping dept.". Searching archives is fun for me, but I'll bet there are many of us on PRR-Talk that don't have that kind of time to search. Praises to Jerry for his site and it's search ability. Better than a lot. Even Google can be tiresome. LOL This keeps in mind that the class is always capitals, and the sub-class is always small case. Consistency. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 PS And for those of you who I met in Cincy that think a "Ferroequinologist" should know everything there is to know about a stam engine: No One Knows Everything! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:24:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 23:36:22.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0A69EE0:01C433C2] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Unfortunately, Bill, I did the same. I have no pictures to share. Sorry. And for all those that could not attend, you missed a very good convention. Expertly handled by the Cincinnati group. (I was going to write "canaries", but then I thought!) LOL twice Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:43:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caps are an engineering standard on drawings (formerly Blueprints) and would be in the format specs within a drafting procedure manual. These manuals may be company specific or industry specific requirements. Possibly the lower cases were used on the "face" of the drawing (where the "views" are. Depending upon where one sees the designation, it may have been done by non-engineering type personnel (financial?). I would be interested in finding an afore mentioned drafting manual, since I do this as a livelihood. Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes > > On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:04 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR > > freight car classes? > > > > Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". > > > > And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, > > as in > > > Jerry, > > All caps when lettered on the car, including the subclass, which was a > smaller sized stencil. I tend toward all caps when writing the classes > in text, when I remember. > > > > > GLa vs. Gla > > GLca vs. Glca > > How about GLA and GLCA > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:01:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, I was also told by an RPO clerk about bees (sometimes many) accumulating on the outsides of the box of bee shipments in RPO cars. He explained that they were not escapees, rather passers-by that were attracted to the queen being shipped with the colony. They would ride along peaceably, until disturbed by a human. These guys were refereed to fittingly, as hoboes. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux > At one time I kept bees as a hobby; think of having ten thousand or > so faithful pets. Anyway, bees were and probably are regularly > shipped by ordinary mail (first class probably, they can only have > so much food with them, and only in warm weather). You order > them by the pound, by the way. I did get a frantic call from the post > office when they arrived; and a few of the little devils had escaped > and were clinging to the outside of the package. > > This was in Illinois, where Chicago Union Station still has position > light signals (PRR content). > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error. In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express service did receive Ajax power handbrakes." I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car also has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years. Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:43:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Bill Bigler writes... > > I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people seem to > think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my age, > of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a > convention, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions of > that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in a > heartbeat! > > Just one SPF's opinion! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my own... He uses good common sense! I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a back seat, not generally the case! >From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splendid job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the same thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such a well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? And John Wright if you are out there we will meet next year as well as the rest of you all (Yuze Gize). Thanks, Greg Martin --part1_ea.4dc28c45.2dcc72df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Bill Bigler writes...=

I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh shoul= d maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people se= em to think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by=20= 338, about the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangero= us at my age, of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, b= ut hey -- our eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks.=

So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a conven= tion, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions=20= of that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in=20= a heartbeat!

Just one SPF's opinion!

Bill Bigler - 4915

I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my= own... He uses good common sense!

I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a=20= work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a bac= k seat, not generally the case!

>From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as exp= ected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splend= id job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the= same thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to co= nsider hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus= ???

Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such=20= a well thought out event so we know who to thanks...?

And John Wright if you are out there we will meet next year as well as the r= est of you all (Yuze Gize).

Thanks,

Greg Martin
--part1_ea.4dc28c45.2dcc72df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 08:47:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <03F8E340-A02D-11D8-930E-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning, I've quickly put some photos up on the web from the annual meeting in Cincinnati. There is no "master page" yet, but I'll try to list them in this email. You can get to a listing of the files by going to: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/ My sincere apologies if I make an incorrect attribution or mis-spell a name!!! Also, sorry for the file sizes...dial up folks may struggle! MODEL ROOM: Craig Bossler's one-of-a-kind model of the one-of-a-kind G23 http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/G23.JPG Some of Garrett Rea's models, including his PRRPro F30s http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/GarrettRea1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/GarrettRea2.jpg Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and the GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in MM) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman4.jpg LAYOUTS: Bob MacKenrick's Wawa diorama, complete with GRA and manure load http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick2.jpg Some scenes from Bob's layout http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick4.jpg Scene's from Curt LaRue's layout http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue4.jpg Scene's from Ed Swain's layout - Ed's layout room is so clean, its amazing, as are the display cases of military models in the "crew lounge". Ed had several superdetailed dioramas on the layout. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain4.jpg Scenes from Rick Crumrine's Waynesburg and Washington (featured in GMR 2003) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW3.jpg At the Railway Museum of Great Cincinnati,in Covington, KY: Two FGE reefers http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE(58999)1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE(58999)2.jpg and a shorter car (I missed getting the number) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE4.jpg Theatrical Scenery car Juliet http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet2.jpg Interior shots http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet4.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet5.jpg and a complete underbody series http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet6.jpg through http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet13.jpg (substitute Juliet7 etc...) Interior shots of a PRR RPO-Baggage http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO4.jpg A PULLMAN 12-1 tourist car "Jovita", with 2 x 16 UC brakes, wood window sashes and no A/C. This folder includes a complete underbody series from both sides as well as window, step and truck detail shots. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Jovita/ (this will get you a listing of all the files) A PULLMAN 14 section car "Overdale" (plan 3958A). Detail shots of the windows are included. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Overdale/ In addition, I have complete under body series from the museum's B&O I-12 wagon top hack and from a phase I Pullman built 1943 troop sleeper if anyone is interested. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:15:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D356C165@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 14:06:08.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[71B3D6F0:01C4343C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When I hired out on the PRR in the fall of 1958 it was about a year before the massive reduction and consolidation of passenger trains. Since I had a free annual pass good on everything that ran except the Broadway and the General, and since I was still single, I spent a lot of time over the weekends riding the rails. I am here to tell you that EACH AND EVERY TRAIN in the summer and fall of 1958 was Standing Room Only. I am not exaggerating one bit. Often, in order to get a place to sit I rode through the night in the rear cab of the locomotive. So why, I would ask myself, does/did the PRR have such a penchant to get rid of passenger trains? Also, I might add, the head end traffic on these trains was also enormous. Well, on investigation into the matter, it appeared that the preponderance of the passengers on these trains (which were east-west in nature) were southern blacks who were in the process of migrating from the south to the northern cities and from one northern city to another ostensibly in search of employment. The exact reason for this is not really clear to me, but I believe most of it was due to the rapid mechanization of farming in the south which rendered the sharecroppers surplus. Factories in the north appeared to be hiring at the time, but that situation proved to be only temporary, as the exodus of northern industry had already begun to southern cities as well as Asia. But the real reason that the railroad was losing money on overcrowded passenger trains, I was to find out, was that the railroad had an apparently long standing practice of offering half price tickets to members of clergy and their families. I observed whole coach-loads of "clergy pass holders" offering up transportation to the conductors! They had found a huge loophole in the tariff regulations and were taking advantage of it. To the railroads, it was the old Chinese laundry addage, "No tickee, no washee!" So off came the trains. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:28 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Marty writes: > There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and > a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a > two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place > a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would > couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and > we'd arrive early in the morning. Marty, That's really interesting- seems to be a good example of the sort of consolidation I was speaking of, that preserves service but does so at the expense of added time for layovers and changing trains. The July 1963 PTT shows the "Clevelander", the last remaining Cleveland train, as a separate train only as far as Pittsburgh (arriving EB at 9:25 PM), with a single sleeper picked up by the "General" (leaving at 1:11 AM). Coach passengers had to change cars. A Pittsburgh-Washington sleeper is also listed, but this is a car that is already in the General's consist. That Washington sleeper, by the way, is the remnant of the "Liberty Ltd.", which was discontinued in 1957, with at first a couple of Washington-Chi. sleepers and then just one carried on the General west of Harrisburg. Westbound, the General arrived at Pitts. at 1:21 AM, and a NY-Clev. sleeper and Pitts.-Clev. coaches left at 4:10 AM (5:00 on Sat.). Cleveland service ended entirely in 1964. A few years earlier, the same sort of scenario had played out with Detroit service. In early 1957, there were still two trains each way, the "Red Arrow" and "Detroit Express". By 1958, only the Red Arrow remained, but it still carried several sleepers. Then it was cut back to a connection with the "General" at Crestline, and then discontinued. No doubt patronage was dropping everywhere, but clearly cuts in frequency and convenience, not to mention quality, on "feeder" routes like Cleveland and Detroit accelerated the decline, and made the remaining stubs (Crestline-Detroit, Pittsburgh Cleveland) uneconomical to operate. Best, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:15:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D356C165@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 14:06:08.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[71B3D6F0:01C4343C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When I hired out on the PRR in the fall of 1958 it was about a year before the massive reduction and consolidation of passenger trains. Since I had a free annual pass good on everything that ran except the Broadway and the General, and since I was still single, I spent a lot of time over the weekends riding the rails. I am here to tell you that EACH AND EVERY TRAIN in the summer and fall of 1958 was Standing Room Only. I am not exaggerating one bit. Often, in order to get a place to sit I rode through the night in the rear cab of the locomotive. So why, I would ask myself, does/did the PRR have such a penchant to get rid of passenger trains? Also, I might add, the head end traffic on these trains was also enormous. Well, on investigation into the matter, it appeared that the preponderance of the passengers on these trains (which were east-west in nature) were southern blacks who were in the process of migrating from the south to the northern cities and from one northern city to another ostensibly in search of employment. The exact reason for this is not really clear to me, but I believe most of it was due to the rapid mechanization of farming in the south which rendered the sharecroppers surplus. Factories in the north appeared to be hiring at the time, but that situation proved to be only temporary, as the exodus of northern industry had already begun to southern cities as well as Asia. But the real reason that the railroad was losing money on overcrowded passenger trains, I was to find out, was that the railroad had an apparently long standing practice of offering half price tickets to members of clergy and their families. I observed whole coach-loads of "clergy pass holders" offering up transportation to the conductors! They had found a huge loophole in the tariff regulations and were taking advantage of it. To the railroads, it was the old Chinese laundry addage, "No tickee, no washee!" So off came the trains. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:28 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Marty writes: > There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and > a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a > two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place > a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would > couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and > we'd arrive early in the morning. Marty, That's really interesting- seems to be a good example of the sort of consolidation I was speaking of, that preserves service but does so at the expense of added time for layovers and changing trains. The July 1963 PTT shows the "Clevelander", the last remaining Cleveland train, as a separate train only as far as Pittsburgh (arriving EB at 9:25 PM), with a single sleeper picked up by the "General" (leaving at 1:11 AM). Coach passengers had to change cars. A Pittsburgh-Washington sleeper is also listed, but this is a car that is already in the General's consist. That Washington sleeper, by the way, is the remnant of the "Liberty Ltd.", which was discontinued in 1957, with at first a couple of Washington-Chi. sleepers and then just one carried on the General west of Harrisburg. Westbound, the General arrived at Pitts. at 1:21 AM, and a NY-Clev. sleeper and Pitts.-Clev. coaches left at 4:10 AM (5:00 on Sat.). Cleveland service ended entirely in 1964. A few years earlier, the same sort of scenario had played out with Detroit service. In early 1957, there were still two trains each way, the "Red Arrow" and "Detroit Express". By 1958, only the Red Arrow remained, but it still carried several sleepers. Then it was cut back to a connection with the "General" at Crestline, and then discontinued. No doubt patronage was dropping everywhere, but clearly cuts in frequency and convenience, not to mention quality, on "feeder" routes like Cleveland and Detroit accelerated the decline, and made the remaining stubs (Crestline-Detroit, Pittsburgh Cleveland) uneconomical to operate. Best, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to skyrocketing insurance costs... http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to skyrocketing insurance costs... http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:47:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:50:48 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:23:38 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bob Chapman's Class GPA Model (was Photos from Cincinnati) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:29:19 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:46:52 +0000 From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:47:39 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On May 7, 2004, at 9:47 AM, robert netzlof wrote: > --- Bruce Smith wrote: > >> Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and >> the >> GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in >> MM) > > The GPA is quite interesting. Could you post the reference to > Mainline Modeler (month? year?). I searched the model trains magazine database at http://index.mrmag.com/ with "Chapman" and found: Modeling Pennsy's GPa Hoppers Mainline Modeler, March 1996 page 56 by Bob Chapman > I daresay, in view of all the cutting and cementing needed to > rearrange the H21 ribs to match the GPA pattern and the attendant > problem of aligning all those bits, it's fortunate that PRR found it > desirable to install that angle iron on the top chord. The article focused on using Westerfield sides, but Bowser sides could be substituted by disassembling the Bowser body. Bob didn't try to slice the ribs off, but cut the panels to include one rib on one side and then sanded them to the narrower size of the GPA panels and glued them back together along with inserting a couple of additional panels. Fortuitously, there are two panel joints that are covered by splice plates, not ribs! A PRRRPro project ??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-1-410960754 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On May 7, 2004, at 9:47 AM, robert netzlof wrote: --- Bruce Smith < wrote: Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and the GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in MM) The GPA is quite interesting. Could you post the reference to Mainline Modeler (month? year?). 13B0,13B0,13B0I searched the model trains magazine database at http://index.mrmag.com/ with "Chapman" and found: 13B1,13B1,13B1Modeling Pennsy's GPa Hoppers Mainline Modeler, March 1996 page 56 by Bob Chapman I daresay, in view of all the cutting and cementing needed to rearrange the H21 ribs to match the GPA pattern and the attendant problem of aligning all those bits, it's fortunate that PRR found it desirable to install that angle iron on the top chord. The article focused on using Westerfield sides, but Bowser sides could be substituted by disassembling the Bowser body. Bob didn't try to slice the ribs off, but cut the panels to include one rib on one side and then sanded them to the narrower size of the GPA panels and glued them back together along with inserting a couple of additional panels. Fortuitously, there are two panel joints that are covered by splice plates, not ribs! A PRRRPro project <??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-1-410960754-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:37:34 +0000 From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:17:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:36:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 16:50:06.0335 (UTC) FILETIME=[599910F0:01C43453] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all Thanks Ben. I appreciate your input. Yes, the limitations of eMail can create some problem in lettering. And I defer to your judgment and suggestions. > Morgan's solution is certainly both logical and workable given software limitations; however, everyone needs to be aware that this is NOT the case when we actually letter a car.> The subject of decals is a dreaded one. I have in all my years, never seen any consistency. Mainly because it's noticeable. But not being an expert, and when modeling with no proto picture available - What can one do but rely on the decal manufacturer. Now, we have somewhat of a solution. PRR-Talk! Where one can ask a question, and get some good answers. Not always what one wants to hear, but certainly about as good as having that photo. Thanks to all! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 12:57:07 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) >Subject: train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) >From: "Frederick Ripley" >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:27:45 -0500 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:55:13 -0500 To: b.hom@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 10:46 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Bruce Smith wrote: > "PRR built (although I'm struggling to confirm that), and unique to the > PRR." > > Not entirely true. N&W built copies in Classes HC-1 and HC-2: > http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2178.jpeg > http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2151.jpeg > > I'll have to confirm if they're H30 or H30A copies - Bob Hundman > published a drawing and short article "Norfolk & Western HC1 Covered > Hopper," Mainline Modeler, March 2001, page 57. Neat! Looks like: H30 outlets (short gate tracks) H30 style roof seams (no overhang) H30 style bolsters (BOTH the A and B end appear to be cast) There is one body difference on the N&W cars and that is that the structural "L" shape over the side stakes is carried to the end of the car body, while BOTH the H30 and H30A only have that shape between the two angled side stakes. A simple detail to add to an H30 model... Oh yeah, are there dashes in N&W car classes? You've got them listed both way above ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: b.hom@att.net From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:56:29 -0500 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Oh yeah, are there dashes in N&W car classes? You've got them listed > both way above ;^) I should say that Ben clearly wrote both N&W classes with dashes, while the MM title was sans hyphen...knowing that Ben pays attention to these things, I am assuming that the MM title is incorrect, for now Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:54:11 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the group: This was discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin board, which is populated with representatives of most of the major museums and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may have been the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved between NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does not operate over a Class 1 road. Also, Steamtown is not suspending all steam operations, only its service over the authority-owned trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at Scranton will continue. To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America has announced suspension of service this season on account of insurance. Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. For Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only one. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to > skyrocketing insurance costs... > > http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm > > Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when > K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:06:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/7/04 12:16:33 PM, thayden@keithley.com writes: << My wife ( girlfriend then) rode a sleeper from Cleveland to NY in the summer of 1964 to the New York World's Fair. I am almost sure she rode the Pennsy ( I think I recall seeing a PRR dinner menu). But she is almost sure she got on the train at Cleveland's Terminal Tower, downtown, and not the PRR station at 55th and Euclid. Is that possible, or likely, that she rode a PRR sleeper from the Terminal Tower to NYC?? >> Tom - When I was working for the Pennsy in Cleveland through about November, 1963, my office was in the Illuminatiing building, right across the street from the downtown station (Terminal Tower?). There was a bar called "The Bunch of Grapes" there where we'd stop once in a while. That is where I got on and off the long haul Pennsy trains. It was also the station for the local commuter train (we lived in Lakewood and took the subway in from Triskett Station). I believe the NYC also used the station. We moved to New York after Cleveland and got a wonderful new apartment in Queens, right off Roosevelt Blvd and the IRT subway (it is elevated in Queens) and that was the line your wife rode to the World's Fair (or, "Feh" as the locals called it). So, she certainly got on the train at the downtown Cleveland station. She either got off at Penn Station or Grand Central Station when she got to New York. The IRT hooks up nicely with Grand Central and not so nicely with Penn Station, as I recall. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & List, Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my statement that this was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & List, Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my statement that this was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell for sure? As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:00:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/7/04 2:49:46 PM, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. >> *************** Bill - I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less than 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. Anyone have evidence? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:08:40 -0000 >From: cupper@att.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown >Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:54:11 -0400 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:52:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender:

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com= ; PRR@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 6:23 = PM

Subject: [PRR] Thoughts on = Cincinnati and=20 other Lines West conventions

Well, Greg,
1.=20 You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next = year.
2. As=20 you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of=20 guys. They also are active or retired managers of various = things, so I=20 wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided = unpleasant=20 surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair = Rick=20 Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list = everybody=20 involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it = to say=20 that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, with = the=20 exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and = hard=20 work. I except myself because I spent all the convention = preparation=20 time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about=20 Cincinnati.
3. Although much railroading has disappeared in=20 Cincinnati, the city is still a good place to visit for what's = left. One=20 example of this is CUT. By a series of miracles over more than = 30 years,=20 Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won = restoration as=20 the city's Museum Center, housing historical, science, and children's=20 museums. In fact, including all the school bus loads of kids, it = probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height of rail = traffic=20 there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our Saturday=20 activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's=20 historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the = rotunda,=20 surrounded by those beautiful mosaic murals,=20 it ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C43465.9393BA50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:45:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and Marty. Another refugee from Cleveland surfaces....I was the rate clerk for the PRR in Cleveland from April to December 1964. It was during that time that the last passenger train ran. I reported to Cleveland from New Orleans by taking the Panama Limtied on the IC to St. Louis, met with the Sales Manager-Southwestern States, then boarded the PRR that afternoon to Pittsburgh, where I had to wait until the middle of the night to board the sleeper to Cleveland. Could not sleep because the damn porter chewed my ear off about the "bad old PRR" when he saw my pass. The train defintely terminated at 55th and Euclid, PRR had discontinued going to the old lakefront depot years before. PRR had no direct access into CUT, the PRR main passed under the CUT trackage. The Ohio PSC did a study the summer of 1964 of the train. There were 54 daily riders, of which 52 rode on PRR passes.. The other two used E-L passes! (I don't really know that, only that 52 were PRR deadheads) When I was transferred to Baltimore as a Sales Rep. just before Christmas (PRR was good at that sort of thing), my wife had to drive me to Canton to catch the train to Baltimore as the "Clevelander' was already gone.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > Marty - After 40 years, I'm not ready to bet the farm or even a few acres on > it! But I did take passenger trains out of CUT on NYC and NKP and out of > 55th St. on Pennsy. Those were the days! I moved there in the early '50's > when NKP and much of Pennsy was still steam, and NYC was running steam on > some passenger and most M&E (mail & express) trains - Hudsons, Niagaras, > Mohawks. They really flew on the flat lands east of Cleveland as did the > NKP Berkshires with those freights - mostly reefers and stock cars. > > Bill > > > > Bill - > > > > I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown > > terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. > > > > However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less > than > > 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. > > > > Anyone have evidence? > > > > Regards, Marty > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:MS60 Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:51:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Doc, A while back I picked up a copy of a May/ 1920 make up of pass. trains. This list shows the following: M70-----steel postal car MS60---steel storage car ML------wood storage car Mm-----wood letter car PS------wood postal storage BG60---wood baggage Exp-----express car [ no other ID ] BO-----40'-6" bag/ or/ exp cars The fate of the wooden cars should be obvious, what is not, is the continued use of the steel cars. Rebuildings were plentifull, so it's back to the resource books again. Sent a couple pages of this to Jerry, and it gave him a migraine trying to cross reference all the items. If you like I will be glad to send you pages of interest. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 > > > Jerry & List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 00:18:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Having read Rick's message on the convention, I now have an even greater dislike for the neurosurgeons who scheduled their fun, in place of mine ,on the convention weekend !! Such is life. It is great to hear of the success, by ALL parties, that 338 members enjoyed, learned, and appreciated all that the Cincy group was able to combine for the event. It is encouraging to hear that we are recruiting new members, we need them. Cudos to ALL who planned & executed the meeting, only wish I could have been there. Thanks for keeping the homebound informed. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions > In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > > From: > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > > seem to > > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > > age, > > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > > > snip > > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > > > own... He uses good common sense! > > > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > > back > > seat, not generally the case! > > > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > > splendid > > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > > same > > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > > a > > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > > Thanks, > > > > Greg Martin > > Well, Greg, > 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. > 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of > guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't > surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant > surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just > one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't > want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those > highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve > much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent > all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on > the book about Cincinnati. > 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is > still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a > series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided > demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing > historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school > bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height > of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our > Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's > historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded > by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. > 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was > set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our > friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally > too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a > number of new members, who joined in order to come. > 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of > us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines > West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society > would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us > how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a > tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati > bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in > Lines West territory. > 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some > plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are > making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society > membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My > guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow > with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage > conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of > the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous > trip west. > > Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy > is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was > relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent > achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing > the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring > much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention > to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, > historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy > efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken > at the annual business meeting). > > Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the > trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same > thing. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 00:18:31 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Having read Rick's message on the convention, I now have an even greater dislike for the neurosurgeons who scheduled their fun, in place of mine ,on the convention weekend !! Such is life. It is great to hear of the success, by ALL parties, that 338 members enjoyed, learned, and appreciated all that the Cincy group was able to combine for the event. It is encouraging to hear that we are recruiting new members, we need them. Cudos to ALL who planned & executed the meeting, only wish I could have been there. Thanks for keeping the homebound informed. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: [PennsyWest] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions > In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > > From: > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > > seem to > > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > > age, > > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > > > snip > > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > > > own... He uses good common sense! > > > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > > back > > seat, not generally the case! > > > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > > splendid > > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > > same > > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > > a > > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > > Thanks, > > > > Greg Martin > > Well, Greg, > 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. > 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of > guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't > surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant > surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just > one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't > want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those > highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve > much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent > all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on > the book about Cincinnati. > 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is > still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a > series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided > demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing > historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school > bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height > of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our > Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's > historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded > by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. > 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was > set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our > friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally > too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a > number of new members, who joined in order to come. > 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of > us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines > West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society > would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us > how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a > tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati > bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in > Lines West territory. > 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some > plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are > making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society > membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My > guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow > with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage > conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of > the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous > trip west. > > Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy > is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was > relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent > achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing > the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring > much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention > to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, > historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy > efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken > at the annual business meeting). > > Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the > trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same > thing. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/8ZCslB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > PennsyWest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:MS60 Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:58:25 -0400 To: "Fred in Vt." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Fred in Vt. wrote: > A while back I picked up a copy of a May/ 1920 make up of > pass. > trains. This list shows the following: > MS60---steel storage car Yes, back then there was an actual MS60 car. Later it was a categorization. I have an original PRR passenger equipment roster from 1923 which will be put online at some point. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:35:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & Listers, Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who isn't running steam this summer? As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how many steam locomotives catastrophically failed during the later steam years (after 1940, say?) The FRA has an entirely new set of regulations for maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, which were designed to recognize present day technology. We have (and Steamtown is indeed using) a lot of high tech methods of inspecting steam locomotie parts, metal homogeneity, metal thickness, well integrity, etc. that weren't available even 20 years ago. And lastly, there are an awful lot of steam boilers in operation: Virtually all power plants have huge ones, many steam and hot water heating systems use them, etc. Where are the insurance companies getting their risk data from? Somehow I get the idea that there is a lot more behind this whole thing than what we read on the surface. Can anyone clarify? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:44:13 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: After seeing CUT, I came home and looked up my information on Buffalo Central Terminal, primarily an NYC terminal, but also used by the Pennsy (required content) and TH&B, as far as I know. The terminal is not only still standing, but the track platforms and umbrella roofs are still there. There was an effort to preserve/restore it a few years ago. They got it cleaned out/up reasonably well, but I haven't been able to find out any more the past couple years. Do any listers, especially any from western NY/Buffalo, know any more about the status of BCT? It was designed by the same guy who designed CUT, and opened in 1929, just a couple years before CUT. Also art decco. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:33:33 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dear Bill and others, The big issue is not that catastrophic railfan event accidents have occurred but that the very possibility, however remote, raises the redflag of lawsuits and thus the insurers require huge insurance premiums for such an event. Just one lawsuit could result in a legal award totaling millions of dollars nowadays and even defending against a spurious lawsuit requires a huge expenditure. It ends up being more trouble and expense than most rail companies or excursion groups can handle... Welcome to the modern era of legal and popular greed. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:35 AM Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions > Jerry & Listers, > > Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running > steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it > than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who > isn't running steam this summer? > > As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run > because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what > I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as > Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may > be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why > should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe > the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can > anyone confirm? > > I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many > tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam > excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Cleveland Union Terminal (Terminal Tower) served the NYC, NKP and ERR (EL) which also carried P&LE cars . After Amtrak was formed it used CUT until thru passenger service was eliminated. Shortly after Amtrak service was restored with the Lake Shore Limited the current lake front station was built across the highway from what is now the Browns stadium and the Science Center and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The EL ran one commuter train a day into CUT from Youngstown until about 1976 The PRR had two stations - the main one was off the downtown area along the lake front. I think , but am not sure, that it was also called union station I don't know when it was demolished - probably in the 50's. The second was on Euclid Ave. at or near 55th St. It has also been torn down but if you look you can still see some wall structure as the tracks are elevated at that location. The last train that PRR had to Cleveland was the Clevelander , it think no's 38 and 39, which ran to New York city and carried sleeping cars until the PRR targeted it for elimination - it was eliminated in the late 60's Hope this helps = Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:49:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and anyone else interested try this link for information on BCT. as far as preservation, Conrail did a big dis-service years ago when the blew up back of the concourse to allow double stack trains through. Note, that was the official reason even though they could bypass the concourse, local railroaders I've talked to feel limiting future preservation and use was a factor. However I am now getting off topic. http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal > After seeing CUT, I came home and looked up my information on Buffalo > Central Terminal, primarily an NYC terminal, but also used by the Pennsy > (required content) and TH&B, as far as I know. The terminal is not only > still standing, but the track platforms and umbrella roofs are still there. > There was an effort to preserve/restore it a few years ago. They got it > cleaned out/up reasonably well, but I haven't been able to find out any more > the past couple years. > > Do any listers, especially any from western NY/Buffalo, know any more about > the status of BCT? It was designed by the same guy who designed CUT, and > opened in 1929, just a couple years before CUT. Also art decco. > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] train consol= idation (Cleveland and Detroit)
From: "William Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400

Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland<= BR> and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As=20= I
remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and
Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland=20= and
Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the termi= nal,
but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Term= inal
electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Stat= ion
until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland w= asn't
on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the=20= PRR
had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for
loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it.=
Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell=
for sure?

As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father
retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on=20= his
face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless= to
say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those h= uge
stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself!

Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo &
Williamsport WWII

As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865= the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lak= efront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cle= veland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR=20= station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and=20= look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious= -looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront st= ation was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the eas= t side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located).

Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in=20= some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gul= ch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; th= ose roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out.

Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 195= 0 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some termin= al then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Gui= de I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with=20= next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean th= at by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it=20= too would still be listed there as an intermediate point.

A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and de= tailed answer to all this...

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: [PRR] train consol= idation (Cleveland and Detroit)
From: "William Bigler" <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400

Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland<= BR> and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As=20= I
remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and
Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland=20= and
Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the termi= nal,
but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Term= inal
electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Stat= ion
until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland w= asn't
on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the=20= PRR
had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for
loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it.=
Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell=
for sure?

As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father
retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on=20= his
face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless= to
say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those h= uge
stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself!

Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo &
Williamsport WWII

As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865= the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lak= efront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cle= veland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR=20= station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and=20= look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious= -looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront st= ation was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the eas= t side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located).

Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in=20= some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gul= ch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; th= ose roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out.

Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 195= 0 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some termin= al then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Gui= de I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with=20= next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean th= at by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it=20= too would still be listed there as an intermediate point.

A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and de= tailed answer to all this...

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_140.28fbd20c.2dce9fc3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re:MS60
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" <docfoot@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400

Jerry &List,

Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on

page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my
statement that this

was a separate &distinct class. What do you think?

Regards,

Eddie

Eddie,

Is this an MS60? Not really ...

2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or oth= er Pennsy rosters. Also see:

Refloc Reftitle Refpage
PRR Color Guide 3 17
PRR Color Guide V1 84
Keystone 1979-1 X42 28

I don't believe it's ever been established:
1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essenti= ally the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b.
2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to s= torage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember,=20= the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day.
3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal=20= evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car=20= might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with a= bout 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulatio= ns. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was onl= y 40'6" long.

Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk start= ed up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't kn= ow. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT= &HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough=20= information on this subject to be satisfactory.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:12:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/8/2004 12:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? >> I have heard the managment of two steam tourist railroads comment directly on their recent experiences with insurance costs. In both cases, they have been quoted enormous increases in insurance costs -- in one instance, seven-fold -- when their policies came up for renewal. This is neither a problem limited to Class 1 trackage, nor an imaginary excuse. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:36:55 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since > >PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit > >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually > >surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there > >just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. > > What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Correctamundo . None whatsoever... until we discover some real data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)... PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too short!! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:36:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since > >PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit > >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually > >surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there > >just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. > > What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Correctamundo . None whatsoever... until we discover some real data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)... PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too short!! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_127.405666ac.2dceacf7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Ric= kTipton@aol.com wrote:

>
> Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since
>PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventual= ly
>surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now= , there
>just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory.

What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyr= r.com

Correctamundo <LOL>. None whatsoever... until we discover some r= eal data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)...<= BR>
PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too shor= t!!

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_127.405666ac.2dceacf7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N5e HELP! Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N5e HELP! Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N5e HELP! Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:30:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I can tell you from talking with railroad employees in the area that the current FRA issues with steam operation came about because of the engine explosion that occurred on the Gettysburg Railroad a decade ago. The explosion killed the engineer and seriously injured the firemen. From what i heard the root cause among other minor things was that the firetubes were not structurally sound. After that the FRA really got strict. My two cents. John "William Bigler" wrote: Jerry & Listers, Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who isn't running steam this summer? As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how many steam locomotives catastrophically failed during the later steam years (after 1940, say?) The FRA has an entirely new set of regulations for maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, which were designed to recognize present day technology. We have (and Steamtown is indeed using) a lot of high tech methods of inspecting steam locomotie parts, metal homogeneity, metal thickness, well integrity, etc. that weren't available even 20 years ago. And lastly, there are an awful lot of steam boilers in operation: Virtually all power plants have huge ones, many steam and hot water heating systems use them, etc. Where are the insurance companies getting their risk data from? Somehow I get the idea that there is a lot more behind this whole thing than what we read on the surface. Can anyone clarify? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:36:09 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John Frantz wrote: > from talking with railroad employees in the area that the current FRA > issues with steam operation came about because of the engine explosion > that occurred on the Gettysburg Railroad a decade ago. Greetings to Jerry, John and the List: Yes, this was the wake-up call that brought down the Feds on the steam excursion/tourist railroad world. The engineer was severely burned but not killed, and at last report was still at the Knox & Kane; the fireman was injured but not in a life-threatening way. The cause of the accident was multiple errors, none of them mechanical or structural, all of them either operational or procedural. The explosion resulted from a classic low-water crown-sheet failure. The aftermath of the accident intensified the scrutiny under which all steam locomotives in the U.S. today are maintained and operated -- and that is one reason among many that there has been so much concern over, and oversight of, the quality of repairs being done to the boiler, firebox, and backhead of No. 1361 (required PRR content). You can read the feds' report on the accident here: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/SIR9605.pdf. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2 Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:45:55 -0400 List, Has any lister had the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or = operate same?? Some dark spot in my mind thinks it would make an = interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn. interchange operations. For = my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 hoppers, that will suffice. = Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so none of the local = suppliers have one as yet. Comments-------------??? Thanks, Fred = in Vt ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4355E.FC7795B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

List,

Has any = lister had=20 the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or operate same?? Some dark = spot in my=20 mind thinks it would make an interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn.=20 interchange operations. For my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 = hoppers,=20 that will suffice. Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so = none of the=20 local suppliers have one as yet.=20 Comments-------------??? Thanks, = Fred in=20 Vt

------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4355E.FC7795B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 05:31:35 -00 From: johnf2384@suscom.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:30:16 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] X29's in MOW Service. Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 01:43:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know when the PRR started to place X29's into MOW service? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 08:04:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <00af01c434a6$82f498e0$1c6a9e0c@gtcom.net> Message-Id: <1752CA15-A1B1-11D8-9083-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [141.158.35.177] at Sun, 9 May 2004 07:03:13 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, For anyone interested in the decline of passenger railroading in the late 50's and early 60's, I recommend "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred Frailey from Kalmbach. One of the best RR books I have ever read. The one sentence summery is that most trains still covered their out of pocket costs until the USPS pulled the mail off. Railroads often claimed fully allocated costs to the public because they were much higher. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:42:48 eds Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,13,15,17-18,22,28,31,37-42 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe:

-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM
To: PRR Talk
Subject: = [PRR]=20 Walthers Troop Cars

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with the=20 Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the=20 typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches = ever=20 thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0154_01C43671.AA89D2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:25:22 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Thread-Index: AcQ0RGPxoe0xQA2jRPConfTKLtyc7gCVXOww From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Ted Andrews" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 14:25:23.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1818520:01C4369A] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Your house premiums may well increase if you try to obtain full value for your models if they are stolen. On my home insurance, I have a "fine arts" rider for which I declare the market value of the models, and I will receive this value if they are stolen. I pay extra for this. Without this rider, a private insurance company may - or - may not reimburse you for the full value of the models stolen. And I've been told that if they reimburse for full value, they most likely will cancel. The NMRA offers insurance to assure that you receive full value for your models if they are stolen. This may be a better value than obtaining a rider on your current home owners insurance. -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:44 AM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 All I can say is Thanks allot sue-happy society. The liberal tort laws that enable lawyers=20 and their plantiffs to base their case not on the truth but rather how much=20 money the defendent has have directly influenced what happened in Steamtown.=20 What is next will the excursions pulled be diesels. .....I wonder if my house premimums will go up because I have models of=20 steam engines in my basement. Ted >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 >Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 > >Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to=20 >skyrocketing insurance costs... > > http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm > >Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s=20 >#1361 is ever restored to service. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:13:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Capitals in car letters From: Greg Ritacco Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi Group, I'm just catching up with my PRR-Talk posts and for what it's worth, my copies of passenger car lettering details dated from 6-12-01 and obsoleted 4-12-38 show all upper case letters for passenger equipment. I.E. BM70K. HOWEVER, the notes are hand written. Also the cars are designated in an interesting way: MP --- E 54 That's the best I can type it, almost like a fraction. Also, wooden equipment is designated all upper but the first letter is much bigger, as in PK. There were no dashes on any of the designations. Greg. --Apple-Mail-2-671705835 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Hi Group, I'm just catching up with my PRR-Talk posts and for what it's worth, my copies of passenger car lettering details dated from 6-12-01 and obsoleted 4-12-38 show all upper case letters for passenger equipment. I.E. BM70K. HOWEVER, the notes are hand written. Also the cars are designated in an interesting way: MP --- E 54 That's the best I can type it, almost like a fraction. Also, wooden equipment is designated all upper but the first letter is much bigger, as in PK. There were no dashes on any of the designations. Greg. --Apple-Mail-2-671705835-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:03:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: TWIMC, I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the stock market did in 2000-2002. In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: Cc: "prr Talk" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions > For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any > unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors > and hospitals to mention a few. > > The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it > on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which > may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards > of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical > malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the > remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay > losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last > year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by > most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up > 4 fold and continue to rise. > > I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of > insurance for the steam railroad industry. > > Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 - now insurance Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:20:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 16:29:05.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[E969F780:01C436AB] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all I am not an insurance expert. But: At age 65, experience is on my side. I live in a mobile home. My home owners specifically includes "all belongings". I contacted them about a year after buying the policy (Incidentally, I have Foremost, but through the AARP. No agent, all over the phone. Not a plug. No personal interest in Foremost.). They told me that as long as the items are "totally within the house", they are covered. The also said that as long as my policy is specifically designated "full value" that they would pay that amount. If - any insurance company drops you for making a legitimate claim, you have government recourse. Now, one caveat. Do not make it a habit of making claims for every little thing. I had roof problems (Ever hear of TX storms? LOL ) and when I contacted roof repair, they told me it would cost $500. My deductible is $250. But I thought, get it repaired, pay that extra $250 to "help" Foremost and keep this claim off the record. (You also know that even if you just "call" the insurance company with an inquiry, it goes against you.) This way, I keep my premiums down. And, it the repairs were over that $500, I certainly would have made the claim. My point is. Keep those claims down. Lastly, when I did have major roof damage and made the claim, the insurance covered the entire re-do. Over $2,000 minus my $250. I have had excellent repore (sp) with them. Some of my models are worth more than I can imagine, what with buying a brass loco for $40 and latest book value is over $400. And have seen it on eBay for $1,000. Theft is minimal. It's mainly fire and such that scares me. My apologies to Jerry for non-RR content. But beg your indulgence in a very important matter. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:21:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Greetings to all: Here's more on why insurance is not the only thing muddying the waters in Scranton. http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11442767&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8 Run by knowledgeable and railroad-friendly folks (read: sober, dry-eyed business professionals who also happen to be not-so-closeted railfans) the Lackawanna County Rail Authority has been very helpful in arranging access for, and working with, Steamtown, private-enterprise short-line freight operations, and others. The county's desire to take over LCRA may make sense from some administration standpoint, but almost certainly bears the marks of partisanship. If there's any city in Pennsylvania where outright partisan politics dominates local government more than in Scranton, I have yet to see it, though Erie and Philadelphia would be close contenders. Let's hope that this is resolved so that when PRR 1361 is back in steam, it won't end up limited to the NPS yard shuttle but rather, gets to stretch its legs on the ex-DL&W main line. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote: >TWIMC, > >I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put >out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest >their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the >stock market did in 2000-2002. > >In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist >operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis >which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion >that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the >problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) > >Doug Kirkpatrick >Medford, OR > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James L. McDaniel" >To: >Cc: "prr Talk" >Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM >Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions > > > > >>For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any >>unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors >>and hospitals to mention a few. >> >>The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it >>on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which >>may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards >>of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical >>malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the >>remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay >>losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last >>year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by >>most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up >>4 fold and continue to rise. >> >>I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of >>insurance for the steam railroad industry. >> >>Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------070505040006000606000602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to all:

Here's more on why insurance is not the only thing muddying the waters in Scranton.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11442767&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8

Run by knowledgeable and railroad-friendly folks (read: sober, dry-eyed business professionals who also happen to be not-so-closeted railfans) the Lackawanna County Rail Authority has been very helpful in arranging access for, and working with, Steamtown, private-enterprise short-line freight operations, and others. The county's desire to take over LCRA may make sense from some administration standpoint, but almost certainly bears the marks of partisanship. If there's any city in Pennsylvania where outright partisan politics dominates local government more than in Scranton, I have yet to see it, though Erie and Philadelphia would be close contenders.

Let's hope that this is resolved so that when PRR 1361 is back in steam, it won't end up limited to the NPS yard shuttle but rather, gets to stretch its legs on the ex-DL&W main line.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote:

TWIMC,

I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put
out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest
their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the
stock market did in 2000-2002.

In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist
operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis
which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion
that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the
problem by filing spurious lawsuits....)

Doug Kirkpatrick
Medford, OR


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net>
To: <davep@quik.com>
Cc: "prr Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions

For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any
unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors
and hospitals to mention a few.

The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it
on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which
may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards
of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical
malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the
remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay
losses.  My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last
year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by
most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up
4 fold and continue to rise.

I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of
insurance for the steam railroad industry.

Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva


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--------------070505040006000606000602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:50:46 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes: > Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland stations > Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net > To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, > PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Sent from the Internet > > > > The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union > Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline. > This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the > original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the > lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. > It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. Here's > a link to a picture of the station in its heyday: > http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg > > Chris Baker > PRRT&HS #1918 Thanks Chris, This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with the two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930. The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore. One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to downtown on the hill above. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:50:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes: > Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland stations > Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net > To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, > PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Sent from the Internet > > > > The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union > Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline. > This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the > original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the > lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. > It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. Here's > a link to a picture of the station in its heyday: > http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg > > Chris Baker > PRRT&HS #1918 Thanks Chris, This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with the two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930. The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore. One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to downtown on the hill above. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_25.47d13de3.2dd14526_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05= AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes:

Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland st= ations
Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: chrisandbelton@comcast.= net
To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org
Sent from the Internet

The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union
Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline.=
This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the
original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the
lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. He= re's
a link to a picture of the station in its heyday:
http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg

Chris Baker
PRRT&HS #1918

Thanks Chris,

This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also=20= confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with th= e two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930= .

The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore= . One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility.&n= bsp; The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "= Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellow= ed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the acce= ss road snaking up to downtown on the hill above.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_25.47d13de3.2dd14526_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:29:33 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On May 10, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop > trains. Well, not EXACTLY . If you reference the Keystone article on the X32 conversions you will find that the initial cars (P78 coaches) were built to ferry troops on liberty from Camp Atterbury (Indianna?) to the nearest city (HELP! Lines West brain cramp!) P78A, P78B and P78T ( a single trailer) coaches were subsequently built (or converted from "command cars" which were not used) for commuter service. These cars were lettered PENNSYLVANIA, retained their PRR freight numbers and did not get Allied Full Cushion Trucks. The P30 was built as a prototype Troop Sleeper and subsequently, 29 additional cars were built as P30A class Troop Sleepers. These cars were then leased to PULLMAN and operated as Troop Sleepers for the remainder of the war, with numbers in the Troop Sleeper series. The P30As were also equipped with Allied Full Cushion Trucks. Of note, these cars were built with porthole windows circa March-June 1943, but were were converted to square sash windows by November 1943, leaving but a 6 month window for porthole window P30A sleepers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-690674814 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On May 10, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Andy Miller wrote: Well, not EXACTLY <. If you reference the Keystone article on the X32 conversions you will find that the initial cars (P78 coaches) were built to ferry troops on liberty from Camp Atterbury (Indianna?) to the nearest city (HELP! Lines West brain cramp!) P78A, P78B and P78T ( a single trailer) coaches were subsequently built (or converted from "command cars" which were not used) for commuter service. These cars were lettered PENNSYLVANIA, retained their PRR freight numbers and did not get Allied Full Cushion Trucks. The P30 was built as a prototype Troop Sleeper and subsequently, 29 additional cars were built as P30A class Troop Sleepers. These cars were then leased to PULLMAN and operated as Troop Sleepers for the remainder of the war, with numbers in the Troop Sleeper series. The P30As were also equipped with Allied Full Cushion Trucks. Of note, these cars were built with porthole windows circa March-June 1943, but were were converted to square sash windows by November 1943, leaving but a 6 month window for porthole window P30A sleepers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-690674814-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:05:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 The NMRA insurance is much less expensive than that of a rider on your home owner's policy. I looked into it several years ago finding the rider was almost three times the cost and did not provide as much coverage as the NMRA policy. Well worth the cost of an NMRA membership just to get the insurance. A frustration with many insurance companies is that they regard our train collections as toys and not collection. Read this as they will not insure for the full value. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084237556 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM
To: PRR = Talk
Subject: [PRR]=20 Walthers Troop Cars

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with=20 the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? = What was=20 the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches=20 ever thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C436E4.3AB3ECD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:39:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's -- More Paint Schemes Shipped From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <3016485B-A348-11D8-8D8D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:

To: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, = Inc. ; rfkennedy.dsm@att.net ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; Fred in = Vt.

Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, = Inc. ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; Al = Buchan=20 ; Ben Hom ; = PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk ; PRR Modeling

Sent: Saturday, 15 May, 2004 = 9:10=20 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] = Cabin=20 Painting Instructions

Fred in Vt. wrote:

         " = Sometimes it=20 pays to look in the other paint rack. The following is a suggestion: = Testors=20 Model Master series of paints has several military, or, light greens = that=20 work well for interior colors. FWIW; has anyone else tried the = Italian Army=20 Brown for the exterior of a cabin car? Did several myself, and with=20 weathering they have a nice subtle aged look. Hope this=20 helps."

I second that. I have found a great color to = paint wheel sets. Look for Testors Model Master No. 2096 "P=20 Schokoladenbraum '43" This color was used by Germany in WW=20 2 for aircraft and armor. I think it is a great color for = wheel=20 sets, rails and a base for weathering motive power or rolling=20 stock. Check it out.

Ted

---
Outgoing = mail is=20 certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: = 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date:=20 05/04/2004
------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01C43A78.B2ABB320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 23:49:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] MTH PS 2.0 From: Dominic Mazoch From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 07:29:35 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: X25 > From: "Greg Ritacco" > Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 > > Hi group, > Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams > of ARE? Thanks in advance. > Greg Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in 1925, so they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 07:29:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: X25 > From: "Greg Ritacco" > Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 > > Hi group, > Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams > of ARE? Thanks in advance. > Greg Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in 1925, so they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.298228b9.2dd8aa9f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32=20= AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: X25
From: "Greg Ritacco" <gregr@surewest.net>
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700

Hi group,
Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams
of ARE? Thanks in advance.
Greg

Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the=20= Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in 192= 5, so they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside.<= BR>
Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_11.298228b9.2dd8aa9f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: [PRR] Genesis EF15s Are Amazing Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:33:47 -0400 I just picked up my EF15s and want to take a moment to thank Greg Martin = for all of hard work he has done with Athearn to make the Genesis PRR F3s = the closest-to-prototype plastic models I have seen yet. I thought the F7s = were going to be tough to beat but the F3s are even better. It's nice to see = the correct builders plates, trust plates and placement of the Keystone on = the nose door for each unit. It's not often you get a manufacturer to adjust = the paint scheme for each individual road number. The single horn and = painted grabs mean less work for me when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you = and please keep up the great work. =20 Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits to start adding the extra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 6?..... = With all of the new motive power and rolling stock coming out, it's a great = time to be a Pennsy modeler. =20 Thanks, Rick ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C43B9E.3FAEAC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

I just picked up my EF15s and want to take a moment = to thank Greg Martin for all of hard work he has done with Athearn to make the = Genesis PRR F3s the closest-to-prototype plastic models I have seen yet. I thought the F7s were going to be tough to beat but the F3s are even better. It’s nice to see the correct builders plates, trust = plates and placement of the Keystone on the nose door for each unit. It’s = not often you get a manufacturer to adjust the paint scheme for each = individual road number. The single horn and painted grabs mean less work for me = when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you and please keep up the great = work.

Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits = to start adding the extra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive = Pictorial Vol. 6?..... With all of the new motive power and rolling stock coming = out, it’s a great time to be a Pennsy modeler.

Thanks, Rick

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C43B9E.3FAEAC20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:29:51 -0400 From: RamblingReck Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting Guys, At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website. http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable. John Ryan --------------060008040505010109020409 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Guys,

At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website.

http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm

Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable.

John Ryan
--------------060008040505010109020409-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:29:51 -0400 From: RamblingReck Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting Guys, At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website. http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable. John Ryan --------------060008040505010109020409 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Guys,

At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website.

http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm

Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable.

John Ryan
--------------060008040505010109020409-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Caliciotti" Subject: [PRR] sears roebuck warehouse Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 04:27:42 +0000 Subject: RE: [PRR] sears roebuck warehouse Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 01:06:47 -0400 From: "Owens, David" I believe the whole complex was demolished back in the late 80s. =20 Dave Owens -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam = Caliciotti Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:28 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] sears roebuck warehouse Anyone know if the Sears Roebuck and Co. warehouse on the Oxford Road = branch still standing? _____ =20 Best Restaurant Giveaway = Ever! Vote for your favorites for a chance to win $1 million! = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43C95.EBD93441 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I=20 believe the whole complex was demolished back in the late=20 80s.

Dave=20 Owens

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam = Caliciotti
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:28 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] sears roebuck=20 warehouse

Anyone know if the Sears Roebuck and Co. = warehouse on=20 the Oxford Road branch still standing?

Best Restaurant = Giveaway=20 Ever! Vote for your favorites for a chance to win $1 million!=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43C95.EBD93441-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 01:54:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis EF15s Are Amazing Rick writes: > I just picked up my EF15s and want to take a moment to thank Greg Martin > for all of hard work he has done with Athearn to make the Genesis PRR F3s the > closest-to-prototype plastic models I have seen yet. I thought the F7s were > going to be tough to beat but the F3s are even better. It's nice to see the > correct builders plates, trust plates and placement of the Keystone on the > nose door for each unit. It's not often you get a manufacturer to adjust the > paint scheme for each individual road number. The single horn and painted grabs > mean less work for me when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you and please > keep up the great work. > > Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits to start adding the > extra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 6?..... With all > of the new motive power and rolling stock coming out, it's a great time to be > a Pennsy modeler. > Thanks, Rick Rick and all... All to often we take it upon ourselves to believe that one person is responsible for the success of a project like this recent Athearn/Genesis release of the EF15s ... not so, I was but a vehicle as there were others involved and no matter how small a part they had, the success would have been less if not for them. Let me share with you who I can tell you was also involved and deserve real thanks. Our own: Gary Mittner oversaw this project from day one ... thank Gary for following along and his input and final review... Mark Kerlick advised again as well ... that damn single horn, thank (Picky) Mark! Jack Consoli who jumped in to help with specific details at the eleventh hour ... thank Jack! Al Buchan watched closely over my/our shoulder ... thanks Boss! And the fantastic folks at Athearn for being patient and willing to digest my scribbles and doodles... They were great at doing the extras I ask for, like the nose Keystone changes and the single horn ... their first attempt at this ... now proven it opens the doors for other roads in the future with single horns. So you see sometimes the folks behind the scenes remain quiet but deserve the credit as well. This wasn't about me it was about them... Now we just might get our EH15's PRR F 3 "snappers" (helpers) in a very limited edition if we respond as well to this as we did to the F7's and then the ultimate F 7! Greg Martin --part1_62.3e6d4119.2ddaff20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Rick writes:

I just picked up my EF15s and=20= want to take a moment to thank Greg Martin for all of hard work he has done=20= with Athearn to make the Genesis PRR F3s the closest-to-prototype plastic mo= dels I have seen yet. I thought the F7s were going to be tough to beat= but the F3s are even better. It's nice to see the correct builders pl= ates, trust plates and placement of the Keystone on the nose door for each u= nit. It's not often you get a manufacturer to adjust the paint scheme for ea= ch individual road number. The single horn and painted grabs mean less work=20= for me when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you and please keep up th= e great work.

Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits to start adding the ext= ra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 6?.....&nbs= p; With all of the new motive power and rolling stock coming out, it's a gre= at time to be a Pennsy modeler.

Thanks, Rick

Rick and all...

All to often we take it upon ourselves to believe that one person is respons= ible for the success of a project like this recent Athearn/Genesis release o= f the EF15s ... not so, I was but a vehicle as there were others involved an= d no matter how small a part they had, the success would have been less if n= ot for them. Let me share with you who I can tell you was also involved and=20= deserve real thanks.

Our own:

Gary Mittner oversaw this project from day one ... thank Gary for following=20= along and his input and final review...
Mark Kerlick advised again as well ... that damn single horn, thank (Picky)=20= Mark!
Jack Consoli who jumped in to help with specific details at the eleventh hou= r ... thank Jack!
Al Buchan watched closely over my/our shoulder ... thanks Boss!

And the fantastic folks at Athearn for being patient and willing to digest m= y scribbles and doodles... They were great at doing the extras I ask for, li= ke the nose Keystone changes and the single horn ... their first attempt at=20= this ... now proven it opens the doors for other roads in the future with si= ngle horns.

So you see sometimes the folks behind the scenes remain quiet but deserve th= e credit as well. This wasn't about me it was about them...

Now we just might get our EH15's PRR F 3 "snappers" (helpers) in a very limi= ted edition if we respond as well to this as we did to the F7's and then the= ultimate F 7!

Greg Martin --part1_62.3e6d4119.2ddaff20_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:32:57 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/16/04 2:40:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes: > >In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the > >Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in > >1925, so > >they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. > > According to the ORER numbers in Westerfield's X25 info sheet, 125 cars > remained as of 2/30 and one car soldiered on in the 6/34 and 1/40 ORERs. > Rob Schoenberg's web site also shows the 11 X25 number series s in > "passenger service" , but doesn't indicate numbers in service. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > Oops, gentlemen, My answer was from my notes. On review of the March 1983 Keystone article by Ian Fischer, we can see: 1. a footnote that says that by June 1926, the 823 cars were returned to freight service. OTOH, the roster of "X25 Express Cars" just above that footnote shows (with Bruce's data added) that 4-digit passenger numbers were still listed as follows: May 1917 158 cars Jan 1923 834 " Jan 1928 306 " Feb 1930 125 " Oct 1931 72 " June 1934 1 car July 1936 1 " Jan 1940 1 " Notice that nowhere in all this is firm info available on which specific freight numbers these cars came from. However, it seems pretty clear that the 10 car series containing 2404 (and incidentally owned by WNY&P) was likely out of the 93101-93441 series, and were back in freight service by Jan 1928. It's also interesting to see that none of the X25 BX's seem to have been from Lines West's X25 number series. I wonder if that's also true for the X29 BX's when they were converted? IIRC, yes, but it can certainly be argued that, by that time, the distinction of car numbers (500,000 and up) that once divided Lines West from East was fading. When did Adams merge to form American Railway Express? That means we have more questions to research: 1. Did any X25 BX's ever carry the ARE markings? 2. Did any X29 BX's ever carry the Adams markings? A footnote: 9 out of 10 fans call these "Railway Express Agency" boxcars without really thinking about it, because the REA stencil was so visible on X29 cars painted in express box service in the 40's and 50's. However, as we know, these cars were not owned by REA, nor were they used exclusively by REA. In fact, they were heavily used for storage mail, under contracts and tariffs with the US Post Office. Instead, the stencil had the same status as the REA markings on many/most other storage mail cars/compartments of cars (think baggages, and combines). To me, "REA" (or more properly "CK-REA") is a lettering scheme that's a variant of CK (Circle Keystone) and was in use from 1941 to 1952 or so. Thus, I prefer more generally to term these express box cars "X29 BX" etc., after the AAR Mechanical Code for boxcars equipped for passenger express service. In rosters I think you'll find BX used with appropriate X25 and X29 cars, and of course all 10 X42. Other roads had BX versions as well; see for example RP Cyc vol. 6, 7, and 8 for much more on these cars and their usage. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:32:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/16/04 2:40:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes: > >In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the > >Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in > >1925, so > >they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. > > According to the ORER numbers in Westerfield's X25 info sheet, 125 cars > remained as of 2/30 and one car soldiered on in the 6/34 and 1/40 ORERs. > Rob Schoenberg's web site also shows the 11 X25 number series s in > "passenger service" , but doesn't indicate numbers in service. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > Oops, gentlemen, My answer was from my notes. On review of the March 1983 Keystone article by Ian Fischer, we can see: 1. a footnote that says that by June 1926, the 823 cars were returned to freight service. OTOH, the roster of "X25 Express Cars" just above that footnote shows (with Bruce's data added) that 4-digit passenger numbers were still listed as follows: May 1917 158 cars Jan 1923 834 " Jan 1928 306 " Feb 1930 125 " Oct 1931 72 " June 1934 1 car July 1936 1 " Jan 1940 1 " Notice that nowhere in all this is firm info available on which specific freight numbers these cars came from. However, it seems pretty clear that the 10 car series containing 2404 (and incidentally owned by WNY&P) was likely out of the 93101-93441 series, and were back in freight service by Jan 1928. It's also interesting to see that none of the X25 BX's seem to have been from Lines West's X25 number series. I wonder if that's also true for the X29 BX's when they were converted? IIRC, yes, but it can certainly be argued that, by that time, the distinction of car numbers (500,000 and up) that once divided Lines West from East was fading. When did Adams merge to form American Railway Express? That means we have more questions to research: 1. Did any X25 BX's ever carry the ARE markings? 2. Did any X29 BX's ever carry the Adams markings? A footnote: 9 out of 10 fans call these "Railway Express Agency" boxcars without really thinking about it, because the REA stencil was so visible on X29 cars painted in express box service in the 40's and 50's. However, as we know, these cars were not owned by REA, nor were they used exclusively by REA. In fact, they were heavily used for storage mail, under contracts and tariffs with the US Post Office. Instead, the stencil had the same status as the REA markings on many/most other storage mail cars/compartments of cars (think baggages, and combines). To me, "REA" (or more properly "CK-REA") is a lettering scheme that's a variant of CK (Circle Keystone) and was in use from 1941 to 1952 or so. Thus, I prefer more generally to term these express box cars "X29 BX" etc., after the AAR Mechanical Code for boxcars equipped for passenger express service. In rosters I think you'll find BX used with appropriate X25 and X29 cars, and of course all 10 X42. Other roads had BX versions as well; see for example RP Cyc vol. 6, 7, and 8 for much more on these cars and their usage. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_191.2925a5c9.2ddb4e69_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/16/04 2:40:14=20= PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes:

>In a message dated 5/13/04=20= 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:
>Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to=20= the
>Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in=
>1925, so
>they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside.
According to the ORER numbers in Westerfield's X25 info sheet, 125 cars
remained as of 2/30 and one car soldiered on in the 6/34 and 1/40 ORERs. Rob Schoenberg's web site also shows the 11 X25 number series s in
"passenger service" , but doesn't indicate numbers in service.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Oops, gentlemen,

My answer was from my notes. On review of the March 1983 Keystone arti= cle by Ian Fischer, we can see:
1. a footnote that says that by June 1926, the 823 cars were returned to fre= ight service. OTOH, the roster of "X25 Express Cars" just above that f= ootnote shows (with Bruce's data added) that 4-digit passenger numbers were=20= still listed as follows:
May 1917    158 cars
Jan 1923      834 "
Jan 1928      306 "
Feb 1930     125 "
Oct 1931       72 "
June 1934       1 car    &= nbsp;
July 1936        1 "
Jan 1940         1 "

Notice that nowhere in all this is firm info available on which specific fre= ight numbers these cars came from.

However, it seems pretty clear that the 10 car series containing 2404 (and i= ncidentally owned by WNY&P) was likely out of the 93101-93441 series, an= d were back in freight service by Jan 1928.

It's also interesting to see that none of the X25 BX's seem to have been fro= m Lines West's X25 number series. I wonder if that's also true for the= X29 BX's when they were converted? IIRC, yes, but it can certainly be= argued that, by that time, the distinction of car numbers (500,000 and up)=20= that once divided Lines West from East was fading.

When did Adams merge to form American Railway Express? That means we h= ave more questions to research:
1. Did any X25 BX's ever carry the ARE markings?
2. Did any X29 BX's ever carry the Adams markings?

A footnote: 9 out of 10 fans call these "Railway Express Agency" boxcars wit= hout really thinking about it, because the REA stencil was so visible on X29= cars painted in express box service in the 40's and 50's. However, as= we know, these cars were not owned by REA, nor were they used exclusively b= y REA. In fact, they were heavily used for storage mail, under contrac= ts and tariffs with the US Post Office.

Instead, the stencil had the same status as the REA markings on many/most ot= her storage mail cars/compartments of cars (think baggages, and combines).&n= bsp; To me, "REA" (or more properly "CK-REA") is a lettering scheme that's a= variant of CK (Circle Keystone) and was in use from 1941 to 1952 or so.

Thus, I prefer more generally to term these express box cars "X29 BX" etc.,=20= after the AAR Mechanical Code for boxcars equipped for passenger express ser= vice. In rosters I think you'll find BX used with appropriate X25 and=20= X29 cars, and of course all 10 X42.

Other roads had BX versions as well; see for example RP Cyc vol. 6, 7, and 8= for much more on these cars and their usage.     &nbs= p;

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_191.2925a5c9.2ddb4e69_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:00:20 EDT Subject: Re:[PRR] sears roebuck warehouse In a message dated 5/18/2004 1:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, DOwens@courant.com writes: > October 30, 1994: the powerhouse remains. Rail lines are still in the area, essentially running through several blocks of "brownfield" sites. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_9d.487d2743.2ddb54d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message=20= dated 5/18/2004 1:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, DOwens@courant.com writes:

I believe the whole complex= was demolished back in the late 80s

October 30, 1994: the powerhouse remains. Rail lines are still in the
area, essentially running through several blocks of "brownfield" sites.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_9d.487d2743.2ddb54d4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] X25 BX photo Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:51:48 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:08:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Name the Painting MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, Nice colorful art. It is your painting, probably your idea of the setting and I assume it brought back memories. So I suggest "WILMINGTON MEMORIES" ...........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Track scales Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:13:32 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Track scales Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:13:32 +0000 Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:20:06 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting >Subject: Name the Painting >From: "RamblingReck" From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Name the Painting Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:57:57 -0000 >From: RamblingReck@att.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] Name the Painting >Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:29:51 -0400 From: "Fred Rea" Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a J1 in a week or two Fred Rea [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a J1 in a week or two Fred Rea [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:37:23 -0400 From: Robert Parker Subject: [PRR] windows on the K-4 From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 = would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a J1 = in a week or two Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C43CDD.17303210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I = safe to=20 assume the M1 would usually be on the front?

The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI = M1 and am=20 expecting a J1 in a week or two

Fred Rea
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C43CDD.17303210-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 = would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a J1 = in a week or two Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C43CDD.17303210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I = safe to=20 assume the M1 would usually be on the front?

The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI = M1 and am=20 expecting a J1 in a week or two

Fred Rea
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C43CDD.17303210-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:33:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] windows on the K-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob, That was Bowsers crude way of representing window frames. I believe the real K4's, as well as other locos, used 4 (2 on each side of the cab) single windows made of wood? that could slide into the forward open position as seen in many photos as well as completly closed to keep the weather out.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] windows on the K-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob, Check this website out and you wil get a better idea of how the windows were. http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/4483Frame1Source1.htm .................Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:39:31 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) In a message dated 5/17/04 5:15:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:11:33 -0000 > From: "garycost2004" > Subject: Re: Perks > > Tommy; > > Hi There! Instead of doing that, if you wanted to benefit the PRR, > why wouldn't you just 'fix' or increase the passenger business? > > --- In PRR@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Meehan" wrote: > >Hi List > >If I could go back in time and change one thing to benefit the PRR > >it would be this- > > > >Create Amtrak, Septa and NJ Transit in 1958. > > > >Tommy Meehan > Gents, Amtrak et al could not be set up in 1958 because almost no one could get their hands around the problem back then. The costs, service choices, and damage to freight railroading were not well understood back then -- nor did politicians or the public appreciate that they were no longer being covered by profits from freight railroading, and that disaster (possible shutdown) was coming. There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to believe that passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their costs. You're welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally costed", or "ICC costed" if you wish, but I spent time researching this long ago in graduate school, and to a first approximation I don't think it matters today. The brutal truth is that, in a world where you can drive your car or fly in an airplane, there's a cap on what you can charge the public for railroad passenger service. All the railfan wishes in the world can't change the "iron hand of competition" here. The passenger train lost money for most of the 20th Century. This was covered up for many years by the regulatory notion that a common carrier provided transportation services whether they were profitable or not, and its monopolistic profits covered a railroad's full costing. However (and I will state here without proof), as soon as the first truck line took away the first high-rated freight, that fairy tale began to crumble. Then wide ownership of automobiles and the Interstate Highway system took away passenger trains' volume. The last straw was the Boeing 707, with a purchase price about the same as a new passenger train, but generating many more seat-miles per month -- the faster trip over long distances was a bonus. Incidentally, Gary, it would be profitable to compare trainoff patterns on Lines West (where the distances tended to be larger) against Lines East. Seems to me the PRR had to face facts much earlier West of Pittsburgh than it did east of there; that's why Lines West passenger service withered so early. Railroading is a fascinating business -- and we should take it seriously. But let's not pretend that it will ever return to its once-competitionless state. If we insist passenger trains are economically desirable, then let us justify them in terms of highways and airports not built, imported oil saved, and maybe ecological damage minimized. Of course, that gives a whole different set of priorities to, say, Amtrak's route structure than the pious hope "to save the passenger train". Fortunately, it also provides different priorities than "spend as little as you can". I recommend we support the passenger train responsibly -- to do otherwise is to invite the public to tag us as bigger lunatics than we are . And don't ever expect those "glory days" to return. They are safe in history, where we can enjoy them at minimum cost. Of course, if what I've said has offended you, please use your delete key. Thanks for listening. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:39:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) In a message dated 5/17/04 5:15:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:11:33 -0000 > From: "garycost2004" > Subject: Re: Perks > > Tommy; > > Hi There! Instead of doing that, if you wanted to benefit the PRR, > why wouldn't you just 'fix' or increase the passenger business? > > --- In PRR@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Meehan" wrote: > >Hi List > >If I could go back in time and change one thing to benefit the PRR > >it would be this- > > > >Create Amtrak, Septa and NJ Transit in 1958. > > > >Tommy Meehan > Gents, Amtrak et al could not be set up in 1958 because almost no one could get their hands around the problem back then. The costs, service choices, and damage to freight railroading were not well understood back then -- nor did politicians or the public appreciate that they were no longer being covered by profits from freight railroading, and that disaster (possible shutdown) was coming. There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to believe that passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their costs. You're welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally costed", or "ICC costed" if you wish, but I spent time researching this long ago in graduate school, and to a first approximation I don't think it matters today. The brutal truth is that, in a world where you can drive your car or fly in an airplane, there's a cap on what you can charge the public for railroad passenger service. All the railfan wishes in the world can't change the "iron hand of competition" here. The passenger train lost money for most of the 20th Century. This was covered up for many years by the regulatory notion that a common carrier provided transportation services whether they were profitable or not, and its monopolistic profits covered a railroad's full costing. However (and I will state here without proof), as soon as the first truck line took away the first high-rated freight, that fairy tale began to crumble. Then wide ownership of automobiles and the Interstate Highway system took away passenger trains' volume. The last straw was the Boeing 707, with a purchase price about the same as a new passenger train, but generating many more seat-miles per month -- the faster trip over long distances was a bonus. Incidentally, Gary, it would be profitable to compare trainoff patterns on Lines West (where the distances tended to be larger) against Lines East. Seems to me the PRR had to face facts much earlier West of Pittsburgh than it did east of there; that's why Lines West passenger service withered so early. Railroading is a fascinating business -- and we should take it seriously. But let's not pretend that it will ever return to its once-competitionless state. If we insist passenger trains are economically desirable, then let us justify them in terms of highways and airports not built, imported oil saved, and maybe ecological damage minimized. Of course, that gives a whole different set of priorities to, say, Amtrak's route structure than the pious hope "to save the passenger train". Fortunately, it also provides different priorities than "spend as little as you can". I recommend we support the passenger train responsibly -- to do otherwise is to invite the public to tag us as bigger lunatics than we are . And don't ever expect those "glory days" to return. They are safe in history, where we can enjoy them at minimum cost. Of course, if what I've said has offended you, please use your delete key. Thanks for listening. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.29b57799.2ddbc073_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/17/04 5:15:40=20= PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:11:33 -0000
From: "garycost2004" <garycost2004@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Perks

Tommy;

Hi There! Instead of doing that, if you wanted to benefit the PRR, why wouldn't you just 'fix' or increase the passenger business?

--- In PRR@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Meehan" <reddyrider@a...> wrote: >Hi List
>If I could go back in time and change one thing to benefit the PRR
>it would be this-
>
>Create Amtrak, Septa and NJ Transit in 1958.
>
>Tommy Meehan

Gents,

Amtrak et al could not be set up in 1958 because almost no one could get the= ir hands around the problem back then. The costs, service choices, and= damage to freight railroading were not well understood back then -- nor did= politicians or the public appreciate that they were no longer being covered= by profits from freight railroading, and that disaster (possible shutdown)=20= was coming.

There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to believe tha= t passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their costs. You're= welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally costed", or "ICC cost= ed" if you wish, but I spent time researching this long ago in graduate scho= ol, and to a first approximation I don't think it matters today.

The brutal truth is that, in a world where you can drive your car or fly in=20= an airplane, there's a cap on what you can charge the public for railroad pa= ssenger service. All the railfan wishes in the world can't change the=20= "iron hand of competition" here.

The passenger train lost money for most of the 20th Century. This was=20= covered up for many years by the regulatory notion that a common carrier pro= vided transportation services whether they were profitable or not, and its m= onopolistic profits covered a railroad's full costing. However (and I=20= will state here without proof), as soon as the first truck line took away th= e first high-rated freight, that fairy tale began to crumble.   Th= en wide ownership of automobiles and the Interstate Highway system took away= passenger trains' volume. The last straw was the Boeing 707, with a p= urchase price about the same as a new passenger train, but generating many m= ore seat-miles per month -- the faster trip over long distances was a bonus.=

Incidentally, Gary, it would be profitable to compare trainoff patterns on L= ines West (where the distances tended to be larger) against Lines East. = ; Seems to me the PRR had to face facts much earlier West of Pittsburgh than= it did east of there; that's why Lines West passenger service withered so e= arly.

Railroading is a fascinating business -- and we should take it seriously.&nb= sp; But let's not pretend that it will ever return to its once-competitionle= ss state. If we insist passenger trains are economically desirable, th= en let us justify them in terms of highways and airports not built, imported= oil saved, and maybe ecological damage minimized.

Of course, that gives a whole different set of priorities to, say, Amtrak's=20= route structure than the pious hope "to save the passenger train". For= tunately, it also provides different priorities than "spend as little as you= can".

I recommend we support the passenger train responsibly -- to do otherwise is= to invite the public to tag us as bigger lunatics than we are <G>.&nb= sp; And don't ever expect those "glory days" to return. They are safe=20= in history, where we can enjoy them at minimum cost.

Of course, if what I've said has offended you, please use your delete key.&n= bsp; Thanks for listening.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_11.29b57799.2ddbc073_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:39:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) In a message dated 5/17/04 5:15:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:11:33 -0000 > From: "garycost2004" > Subject: Re: Perks > > Tommy; > > Hi There! Instead of doing that, if you wanted to benefit the PRR, > why wouldn't you just 'fix' or increase the passenger business? > > --- In PRR@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Meehan" wrote: > >Hi List > >If I could go back in time and change one thing to benefit the PRR > >it would be this- > > > >Create Amtrak, Septa and NJ Transit in 1958. > > > >Tommy Meehan > Gents, Amtrak et al could not be set up in 1958 because almost no one could get their hands around the problem back then. The costs, service choices, and damage to freight railroading were not well understood back then -- nor did politicians or the public appreciate that they were no longer being covered by profits from freight railroading, and that disaster (possible shutdown) was coming. There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to believe that passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their costs. You're welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally costed", or "ICC costed" if you wish, but I spent time researching this long ago in graduate school, and to a first approximation I don't think it matters today. The brutal truth is that, in a world where you can drive your car or fly in an airplane, there's a cap on what you can charge the public for railroad passenger service. All the railfan wishes in the world can't change the "iron hand of competition" here. The passenger train lost money for most of the 20th Century. This was covered up for many years by the regulatory notion that a common carrier provided transportation services whether they were profitable or not, and its monopolistic profits covered a railroad's full costing. However (and I will state here without proof), as soon as the first truck line took away the first high-rated freight, that fairy tale began to crumble. Then wide ownership of automobiles and the Interstate Highway system took away passenger trains' volume. The last straw was the Boeing 707, with a purchase price about the same as a new passenger train, but generating many more seat-miles per month -- the faster trip over long distances was a bonus. Incidentally, Gary, it would be profitable to compare trainoff patterns on Lines West (where the distances tended to be larger) against Lines East. Seems to me the PRR had to face facts much earlier West of Pittsburgh than it did east of there; that's why Lines West passenger service withered so early. Railroading is a fascinating business -- and we should take it seriously. But let's not pretend that it will ever return to its once-competitionless state. If we insist passenger trains are economically desirable, then let us justify them in terms of highways and airports not built, imported oil saved, and maybe ecological damage minimized. Of course, that gives a whole different set of priorities to, say, Amtrak's route structure than the pious hope "to save the passenger train". Fortunately, it also provides different priorities than "spend as little as you can". I recommend we support the passenger train responsibly -- to do otherwise is to invite the public to tag us as bigger lunatics than we are . And don't ever expect those "glory days" to return. They are safe in history, where we can enjoy them at minimum cost. Of course, if what I've said has offended you, please use your delete key. Thanks for listening. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.29b57799.2ddbc073_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/17/04 5:15:40=20= PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:11:33 -0000
From: "garycost2004" <garycost2004@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Perks

Tommy;

Hi There! Instead of doing that, if you wanted to benefit the PRR, why wouldn't you just 'fix' or increase the passenger business?

--- In PRR@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Meehan" <reddyrider@a...> wrote: >Hi List
>If I could go back in time and change one thing to benefit the PRR
>it would be this-
>
>Create Amtrak, Septa and NJ Transit in 1958.
>
>Tommy Meehan

Gents,

Amtrak et al could not be set up in 1958 because almost no one could get the= ir hands around the problem back then. The costs, service choices, and= damage to freight railroading were not well understood back then -- nor did= politicians or the public appreciate that they were no longer being covered= by profits from freight railroading, and that disaster (possible shutdown)=20= was coming.

There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to believe tha= t passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their costs. You're= welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally costed", or "ICC cost= ed" if you wish, but I spent time researching this long ago in graduate scho= ol, and to a first approximation I don't think it matters today.

The brutal truth is that, in a world where you can drive your car or fly in=20= an airplane, there's a cap on what you can charge the public for railroad pa= ssenger service. All the railfan wishes in the world can't change the=20= "iron hand of competition" here.

The passenger train lost money for most of the 20th Century. This was=20= covered up for many years by the regulatory notion that a common carrier pro= vided transportation services whether they were profitable or not, and its m= onopolistic profits covered a railroad's full costing. However (and I=20= will state here without proof), as soon as the first truck line took away th= e first high-rated freight, that fairy tale began to crumble.   Th= en wide ownership of automobiles and the Interstate Highway system took away= passenger trains' volume. The last straw was the Boeing 707, with a p= urchase price about the same as a new passenger train, but generating many m= ore seat-miles per month -- the faster trip over long distances was a bonus.=

Incidentally, Gary, it would be profitable to compare trainoff patterns on L= ines West (where the distances tended to be larger) against Lines East. = ; Seems to me the PRR had to face facts much earlier West of Pittsburgh than= it did east of there; that's why Lines West passenger service withered so e= arly.

Railroading is a fascinating business -- and we should take it seriously.&nb= sp; But let's not pretend that it will ever return to its once-competitionle= ss state. If we insist passenger trains are economically desirable, th= en let us justify them in terms of highways and airports not built, imported= oil saved, and maybe ecological damage minimized.

Of course, that gives a whole different set of priorities to, say, Amtrak's=20= route structure than the pious hope "to save the passenger train". For= tunately, it also provides different priorities than "spend as little as you= can".

I recommend we support the passenger train responsibly -- to do otherwise is= to invite the public to tag us as bigger lunatics than we are <G>.&nb= sp; And don't ever expect those "glory days" to return. They are safe=20= in history, where we can enjoy them at minimum cost.

Of course, if what I've said has offended you, please use your delete key.&n= bsp; Thanks for listening.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_11.29b57799.2ddbc073_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:42:38 -0400 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:52:32 -0400 Resent-Message-Id: <848A0839-A903-11D8-9995-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Resent-To: PRR-Talk LIST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Subject: [PRR] PRR 2D-P5 Truck Available Again From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-n_scale Message-Id: Resent-From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: =46rom American Limited Models today... "We are now offering the Pennsylvania 2D-P5 passenger car truck in N scale.=A0 This truck was originally tooled by us for East Wind Manufacturing and when they decided to call it quits we felt it would be a good fit in our line." =A0 "The 2D-P5 was the standard truck for Pennsylvania starting in the 1920's and saw service through the 1970's. It was used on baggage, mail, coach, diner, lounge, and observation equipment. The Norfolk and Western used a copy of this truck called the T-52 on baggage and mail cars." =A0 "The truck is a great choice for modelers kitbashing eastern equipment or upgrading existing cars." =A0 "The 2D-P5 will be available in early June." =A0 "#8190 Pennsylvania 2D-P5 Truck........................$5.95" [pair] ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:57:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 18, 2004, at 03:39 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to=20 > believe that passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their=20 > costs.=A0 You're welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally=20= > costed", or "ICC costed" if you wish, but I spent time researching=20 > this long ago in graduate school, and to a first approximation I don't=20= > think it matters today. And don't forget to note that the idiots in charge in Washington seem=20 to forget that for air and road transportation the infrastructure is=20 paid for by taxpayers -- the roads, the airports, the FAA, air traffic=20= control, etc. With the rail passenger service, the railroads pay for=20 the tracks, the stations, etc. They conveniently overlook this fact... even when the railroads saved=20 their precious little butts on 9/11 and the week following! Sorry! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:30:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, the railroads saved their bacon on 9/11. And it was the Pennsy tunnels, track, etc. (required PRR content) that made a lot of it possible. As I understand it, no national passenger rail system anywhere in the world pays its own way - all are government funded. Our government gives billions to the air travel and highway industries in support (supplied by we taxpayers, of course). Amtrak gets a paltry sum, less than a billion. And the government doesn't approve the funding until the last minute, forcing Amtrak to waste money and man hours putting contingency plans in place. Then they waste more time and effort deciding what to defer since they don't have enough money to do what needs to be done. Pay me now or pay me later, and later is always more. The recent article in "Trains" pointed out that the Swiss are taxing the trucks and highways to fund rail expansion. And they spent a huge sum to knock 10 minutes or so off the travel time of a trip that was nominally an hour between two large cities. Trucks are taxed heavily for driving through Switzerland. They can be carried through by rail much cheaper. Now that's forward thinking. We complain about the wide open spaces of the west and long distances between cities. What better place for really high speed rail? You have clearly hit one of my hot buttons! I'll go back to my railroad now. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:30:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, the railroads saved their bacon on 9/11. And it was the Pennsy tunnels, track, etc. (required PRR content) that made a lot of it possible. As I understand it, no national passenger rail system anywhere in the world pays its own way - all are government funded. Our government gives billions to the air travel and highway industries in support (supplied by we taxpayers, of course). Amtrak gets a paltry sum, less than a billion. And the government doesn't approve the funding until the last minute, forcing Amtrak to waste money and man hours putting contingency plans in place. Then they waste more time and effort deciding what to defer since they don't have enough money to do what needs to be done. Pay me now or pay me later, and later is always more. The recent article in "Trains" pointed out that the Swiss are taxing the trucks and highways to fund rail expansion. And they spent a huge sum to knock 10 minutes or so off the travel time of a trip that was nominally an hour between two large cities. Trucks are taxed heavily for driving through Switzerland. They can be carried through by rail much cheaper. Now that's forward thinking. We complain about the wide open spaces of the west and long distances between cities. What better place for really high speed rail? You have clearly hit one of my hot buttons! I'll go back to my railroad now. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] More PRR Pullmans Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:34:26 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Folks, Branchline snuck in some extra PRR painted 12-1 Pullmans in HO while we weren't looking. They are now listing: 5355 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Daniel Webster http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/12-1sleeper/ 5355-prr.jpg 5356 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Nathaniel Green 5357 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Henry Clay Note that these cars carry PULLMAN lettering, not PENNSYLVANIA. So far, It appears that Daniel Wester was not a betterment car (and so is accurate) and that Henry Clay was a betterment car (and so is not 100% accurate). DW might be a fun PRRPro project ;^) Sweet (Pullman) Dreams Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-20--765315918 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII 04DA,04CA,081BFolks, Branchline snuck in some extra PRR painted 12-1 Pullmans in HO while we weren't looking. They are now listing: 5355 04D9,04C9,081APRR (Fleet of Modernism)04DA,04CA,081B Daniel Webster http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/12-1sleeper/5355-prr.jpg 5356 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Nathaniel Green 5357 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Henry Clay Note that these cars carry PULLMAN lettering, not PENNSYLVANIA. So far, It appears that Daniel Wester was not a betterment car (and so is accurate) and that Henry Clay was a betterment car (and so is not 100% accurate). DW might be a fun PRRPro project ;^) Sweet (Pullman) Dreams Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-20--765315918-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:11:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR poling cars Hi All, I have a friend who is looking for any information on PRR Poling cars. He does not belong to on line groups so I am passing his request along. I give you the following: There were at least 67 at one time, but very few photos of them have been found. Usually, they are seen in the background of locomotive or location views, rather than having been the primary target of photographers. Might you have anything to share in this regard? We do have diagrams of classes SA, SC and S5. But, if you have any photos, would you send along scans? I am not knowledgeable of these cars, so anything sent to me will just be forwarded to him. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR poling cars Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:11:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I have a friend who is looking for any information on PRR Poling cars. = He does not belong to on line groups so I am passing his request along. I give you the following: There were at least 67 at one time, but very few photos of them have = been found. Usually, they are seen in the background of locomotive or location views, rather than having been the = primary target of photographers. Might you have anything to share in this regard? We do have diagrams of classes = SA, SC and S5. But, if you have any photos, would you send along scans? I am not knowledgeable of these cars, so anything sent to me will just = be forwarded to him. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR poling cars Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:11:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I have a friend who is looking for any information on PRR Poling cars. = He does not belong to on line groups so I am passing his request along. I give you the following: There were at least 67 at one time, but very few photos of them have = been found. Usually, they are seen in the background of locomotive or location views, rather than having been the = primary target of photographers. Might you have anything to share in this regard? We do have diagrams of classes = SA, SC and S5. But, if you have any photos, would you send along scans? I am not knowledgeable of these cars, so anything sent to me will just = be forwarded to him. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:15:17 -0500 Fred, I have the same curiosity for the same reason. Unfortunately, I = have never seen any photographic evidence of same, but I would be = delighted if there were. I have seen M1s doubleheaded with H10s, K4s = with L1s, etc, but not the combination you and I desire :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fred Rea=20 To: PRR-Talk ; PRR-FAX=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 = would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a = J1 in a week or two Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C43D04.12998130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Fred, I have the same curiosity for the = same=20 reason. Unfortunately, I have never seen any photographic evidence of = same, but=20 I would be delighted if there were. I have seen M1s doubleheaded = with=20 H10s, K4s with L1s, etc, but not the combination you and I desire=20 :-).

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Fred Rea=20

To: PRR-Talk ; PRR-FAX

Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 = 12:36=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Double heading a = j1 and an=20 a M1?

Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am = I safe to=20 assume the M1 would usually be on the front?

The reason for asking is obvious: I have a = BLI M1 and=20 am expecting a J1 in a week or two

Fred Rea
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C43D04.12998130-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:53:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] RE: Passenger trains (lol) Lists, We all have very strong arguments and feelings for rail. These companies forged this nation, enlarged it, and aided it through wars, disasters, and in doing so aided in their own demise. Through governmen= t's weight of taxes and regulation we now see those results.=0D Railroad passenger traffic could still be operational in much more of = the country if it could have a commodity(mail) for a subsidy. But the power brokers took care of that more than 40 years ago while the post office wa= s still under direct government control.=0D There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for highway, airline,or = trucking companies. There must be a way for our rail lines to not only s= urvive but thrive. It is time that Congress at both state and local leve= ls take action to prevent the further erosion of service. Instead of boo= doggles like MAGLEV, put the money into passenger rail and relief for fre= ight rail. My hot button too Jim --------------Boundary-00=_31PXG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1"

Lists, We all have very strong arguments and feelings for rail= =2E These companies forged this nation, enlarged it, and aided it t= hrough wars, disasters, and in doing so aided in their own dem= ise. Through government's weight of taxes and regulation we no= w see those results.

   Railroad passenger traffic could still be operational i= n much more of the country if it could have a commodity(mail) for a subsi= dy. But the power brokers took care of that more than 40 years ago = while the post office was still under direct government control.

    There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for&= nbsp;highway, airline,or trucking companies. There must be a way fo= r our rail lines to not only survive but thrive. It is time that Co= ngress at both state and local levels take action to prevent the further = erosion of service. Instead of boodoggles like MAGLEV, put the mone= y into passenger rail and relief for freight rail. My hot button to= o      Jim

--------------Boundary-00=_31PXG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:12:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:54:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? From: Frederick Ripley Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:54:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? From: Frederick Ripley From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:30:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Passenger trains (lol) In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes: > There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for highway, airline,or > trucking companies. I believe you are mistaken. Please check the "government affairs" section of http://www.aar.org/ Lee Rainey --part1_a9.581ef8a6.2ddc9f49_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:22:5= 8 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes:

There are no lobbyists's for ra= il like those for highway, airline,or trucking companies.

I believe you are mistaken. Please check the "government affairs" section of= http://www.aar.org/

Lee Rainey --part1_a9.581ef8a6.2ddc9f49_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:30:17 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] RE: Passenger trains In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes: > There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for highway, airline,or > trucking companies. I believe you are mistaken. Please check the "government affairs" section of http://www.aar.org/ Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie Vlk" Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:43:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [STMFC] PRR poling cars If I am not mistaken wasn't there a drawing of one in MR many moons ago? It doesn't come up in the magazine index but I think it was a G. Harold Geisell drawing.... Charlie Vlk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie Vlk" Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:43:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [STMFC] PRR poling cars If I am not mistaken wasn't there a drawing of one in MR many moons ago? It doesn't come up in the magazine index but I think it was a G. Harold Geisell drawing.... Charlie Vlk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR poling cars Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:28:25 +0000 > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bill Lane > Subject: [PRR] PRR poling cars From: "Dave West" Subject: [PRR] Name the painting Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:32:12 -0500 From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Newsmagazines Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:57:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Found two items of interest in this weeks newsmagazines: 1. Article in Time about railfans being accused of being terrorists. Full page article which was friendlyto railfans!! Hooray! 2. Full page ad in US News & World Report for GE Diesel Locomotives! Can't imagine that many US News readers buy diesel locomotives! However, the ad stressed fuel efficiency and environmental friendliness, presumably to imply that GE is a good corporate citizen. Presumably none of us will suspect that it has anything to do with competing with EMD! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Newsmagazines Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:57:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Found two items of interest in this weeks newsmagazines: 1. Article in Time about railfans being accused of being terrorists. Full page article which was friendlyto railfans!! Hooray! 2. Full page ad in US News & World Report for GE Diesel Locomotives! Can't imagine that many US News readers buy diesel locomotives! However, the ad stressed fuel efficiency and environmental friendliness, presumably to imply that GE is a good corporate citizen. Presumably none of us will suspect that it has anything to do with competing with EMD! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:56:23 eds Subject: Re: [PRR] Name the painting From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'd suggest the name be, "In the care of the PRR" . Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine War leaves all children behind. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:30:50 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: [PRR] Newsmagazines Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:04:50 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: Re: [PRR] Newsmagazines Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:04:50 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:00:37 -0400 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] Alco C425/425 marker/class lights X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers, Can anyone tell me what were the colors and postions of the three lamps on the front of these cabs above the number boards. I'm assuming red markers with green and white class lights. Can't find any color pictures with a closeup. Thanks in advance, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:42:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - We're Back (We Think!) From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <5507D89C-AB24-11D8-B910-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My ISP's broadband network went down around 3 a.m. yesterday (5/20). It came back up about 8:30 this morning. Don't know for sure that it is up for good, as they continue to work on other aspects of their system. So the lists, Keystone Crossings, and other web sites served by DSOP.COM are now back "on air". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:04:29 -0400 BLI J1
Listers,

It seems that traffic is light so I'll throw out this = question:

The three BLI J's all seem to be from Lines = West. Where any of them ever seen on the curve? If not do = you think that BLI will run some eastern J1 numbers?

Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F2B.C54DCB50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:04:29 -0400 BLI J1
Listers,

It seems that traffic is light so I'll throw out this = question:

The three BLI J's all seem to be from Lines = West. Where any of them ever seen on the curve? If not do = you think that BLI will run some eastern J1 numbers?

Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F2B.C54DCB50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:11:22 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:11:22 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 09:25:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco C425/425 marker/class lights MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dave, I had this same question awhile ago. The answer was Red to the side near the headlight, Green to the center and Clear/White to the outside. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Caboose antenna - N8 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:52:42 -0400 Dave, I don't know in general where to find these diagrams, but I have a copy = of the antenna arrangement for the N8 - it shows all the parts and = dimensions as to where they are located. Am not sure what is the best = way to reproduce it - it is about 3' x 4'. Maybe scan it in pieces? Jack Consoli=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Owens, David=20 To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Caboose antenna Anyone know where I could find diagrams for affixing train phone = antennas to cabooses? Some years ago I put a Bowser antenna set on an N5. I sort of winged = it on where to attach the wire after it extends down the end of the = caboose. I'd like to get my N8s right. Anyone have any information? Thanks, Dave Owens Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better = reproduce the PRR in miniature !=20 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C43EB4.C70BEF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave,

I don't know in general where to find = these=20 diagrams, but I have a copy of the antenna arrangement for the N8 - it = shows all=20 the parts and dimensions as to where they are located. Am not sure what = is the=20 best way to reproduce it - it is about 3' x 4'. Maybe scan it in=20 pieces?

Jack Consoli

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Owens, David=20
To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com =

Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 = 12:30=20 PM

Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Caboose = antenna

Anyone know where I could find diagrams for = affixing train=20 phone antennas to cabooses? Some years ago I put a Bowser = antenna set=20 on an N5. I sort of winged it on where to attach the wire after it = extends=20 down the end of the caboose. I'd like to get my N8s = right. Anyone have=20 any information? Thanks, Dave = Owens

Sharing=20 and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better = reproduce the=20 PRR in miniature !

Yahoo! = Groups=20 Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.= com/group/PRR-Modeling/ =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C43EB4.C70BEF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 22:20:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Don Ball's books all seem to have at least one Pennsy J in them. His book on the Pennsy of the 40's and 50's has several shots of the J's on the curve. One is of them double heading on the curve. There are also shots of them out west for ore service along with the rented Santa Fe steamers. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1085192432 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Don Ball's books all seem to have at least one Pennsy J in them.&n= bsp; His book on the Pennsy of the 40's and 50's has several shots of the J'= s on the curve. One is of them double heading on the curve. There are=20= also shots of them out west for ore service along with the rented Santa Fe s= teamers.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1085192432-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 23:11:49 -0500 BLI J1Hi Chris--I can't answer your question about the three J1 numbers = BLI is offering, but some J1's did see service both on the curve and out = west. Don Ball's "40's and 50's" p. 152 shows 6423 on the curve; 6423 = shows up again on its way to Sandusky in Herron's video "Pennsylvania = Glory Vol. II". =20 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_00E6_01C43F88.FEBFEEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" BLI J1
Hi Chris--I can't answer your question = about the=20 three J1 numbers BLI is offering, but some J1's did see service both on = the=20 curve and out west. Don Ball's "40's and 50's" p. 152 shows 6423 = on the=20 curve; 6423 shows up again on its way to Sandusky in Herron's = video=20 "Pennsylvania Glory Vol. II".

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_00E6_01C43F88.FEBFEEB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:48:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N8 Built dates Hi All, I am decaling some of my PRR N8 Cabin Cars. I am as armed as I can be with a 1958 Cabin region roster and a few Builders photos. I found the following from my Builders photos to be a little strange. 478119 Built 6-51 478120 Built 12-50 >From a photo on Fallen Flags http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr478078ava.jpg which may not be correct: 478078 Built 5-51 >From the NJ International Cabin book 478114 Built 1-51 Some of them, especially Cabin 478120 seems to be out of sequence. Would they have not been built sequentially in a time line fashion? I am wondering about using the 1958 roster. If I don't have enough things to pontificate about, I am doing this! I am trying to build a time line so I can guess about when the car numbers I picked may have been built. Also, is it correct to be using the "Philadelphia Div." region on a Circle Keystone N8? Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com The production for the REA Version has begun Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N8 Built dates Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:48:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am decaling some of my PRR N8 Cabin Cars. I am as armed as I can be = with a 1958 Cabin region roster and a few Builders photos. I found the following from my Builders photos to be a = little strange. 478119 Built 6-51 478120 Built 12-50 >From a photo on Fallen Flags = http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr478078ava.jpg which may not be = correct: 478078 Built 5-51 >From the NJ International Cabin book 478114 Built 1-51 Some of them, especially Cabin 478120 seems to be out of sequence. Would = they have not been built sequentially in a time line fashion? I am wondering about using the 1958 roster. If I = don't have enough things to pontificate about, I am doing this! I am trying to build a time line so I can guess about = when the car numbers I picked may have been built. Also, is it correct to be using the "Philadelphia Div." region on a = Circle Keystone N8? =20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com The production for the REA Version has begun =20 Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:03:22 -0400 Can anyone tell me what Class Locomotive had the number 8739 under the = PRR? It's a Diesel. I would appreciate any help. Lee Burbage #1943 PRRT&HS leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C44027.13003760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Can anyone tell me what Class Locomotive had the number 8739 under = the=20 PRR?

It's a Diesel. I would appreciate any help.

Lee Burbage #1943

PRRT&HS

leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C44027.13003760-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] 8739 Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:20:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: 8739 was PRR Class BS-12m, Baldwin S-12, renumbered to 8189 for the PC merger. Built 9-52 and made it into PC. The above info comes from the PRR Diesel Roster information inPennsy Diesels A to Z. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: edmund burbage To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 6:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Can anyone tell me what Class Locomotive had the number 8739 under the PRR? It's a Diesel. I would appreciate any help. Lee Burbage #1943 PRRT&HS leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:29:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Lee, PRR 8739 was class BS-12m. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- Can anyone tell me what Class Locomotive had the number 8739 under the PRR? It's a Diesel. I would appreciate any help. Lee Burbage #1943 PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:55:11 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] F-unit lift Rings Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:36:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When did the PRR start to apply lift rings to the noses of F-units. Please be as specific as possible in your answers. Thanks. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:40:22 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] GE 44-Tonners Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 09:32:31 -0400 From: don smith Subject: [PRR] PRR 44 Tonners on the Wabash Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi, The Wabash had a branch from Bluffs, Ill. to Keokuk, Ia. The branch weight limit was restricted by a bridge at Meredosia, Ill. During the steam era the line was powered by several class F-4 2-6-0s. Wabash management wished to replace the steamers but owned no diesels light enough to meet the weight limit. This is why the Wabash leased the PRR 44tonners. The Wabash received 9313 on 02-02-55 and 9318 on 02-11-55. The Moguls were immediately taken out of service. Regards, Don Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:15:25 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted out and others didn't. Thanx -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:15:25 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted out and others didn't. Thanx -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:24:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ft. Wayne Line MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List, What is left of PRR's Ft. Wayne main west of Crestline Ohio? Is the line complete to Chicago? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:51:59 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Thread-Index: AcRBKFiaA8xReJVIQi6DTsumVd1ShAAbauDA From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: , "John Frantz" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2004 13:51:54.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[45DDCC40:01C44196] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Other lines also "Coal Goes to War" on their hoppers - I've seen a = picture of a Montour hopper with this logo.=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 7:40 PM To: John Frantz Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" > Gents, > > Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, > what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking > at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted > out and others didn't. photo evidence - GLCA 250391 circa 1942 Other war slogans: H31B 220977 "Buy War bonds" circa 1947 (Keystone Dec 1983, p26) H31B 221265 "Buy War bonds" circa 12/46 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) H31B 221011 "Buy War bonds" circa 5/47 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6564.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:20:49 -0500 Message-ID: <5C7927ABD321EB458EF70953E0D053E80CF6BD@INDYSMAIL02.am.thmulti.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Thread-Index: AcRBKFiaA8xReJVIQi6DTsumVd1ShAAbauDAAADjfnA= From: "Colman Gerald" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" , , "John Frantz" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2004 14:20:50.0581 (UTC) FILETIME=[50933450:01C4419A] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Westerfield makes a set: Decal 2361, GLCA Hopper, Pennsylvania Late. Click on Link below. http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/ Then on: 93. Decals Hopper Cars near bottom of page Jerry Colman -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 8:52 AM To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu; John Frantz Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Other lines also "Coal Goes to War" on their hoppers - I've seen a = picture of a Montour hopper with this logo.=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 7:40 PM To: John Frantz Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" > Gents, > > Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, > what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking > at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted > out and others didn't. photo evidence - GLCA 250391 circa 1942 Other war slogans: H31B 220977 "Buy War bonds" circa 1947 (Keystone Dec 1983, p26) H31B 221265 "Buy War bonds" circa 12/46 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) H31B 221011 "Buy War bonds" circa 5/47 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Schedule for NE Proto meet, June 4-5, Collinsville, CT Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD0257@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Index: AcRBqJoMmBP5C3pMSa2Z4abQrQRw8gAADOtAAAAM4nAAABC4EA== From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2004 16:08:44.0859 (UTC) FILETIME=[638BA0B0:01C441A9] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Northeast/New England Prototype Modelers Meet > June 4-5, 9 a.m. to whenever > Canton Community Center > 40 Dyer Avenue > Collinsville, Connecticut > =20 > To preregister, mail a check payable to N.E. Proto Meet to Fran = Richard, 34 Ellsworth Road, West Hartford, CT 06107. > Registration is $20 in advance, $25 at the door. >=20 > Of note: > Branchline Trains will be open to meet attendees on Thursday night. = Bill Schneider will lead a tour and answer questions. He also plans to = have test shots of Branchline's new Pullmans on display at the meet. = Contact Dave Owens [dowens@courant.com, 860-209-8155] for details and = directions. > =20 > Friday afternoon's weathering clinic is hands-on, meaning = participants are urged to bring a model they'd like to weather. As = Mike's technique is "prototype weathering," a photo of an actual piece = of rail equipment that you'd like to match is also suggested. >=20 > Also, Don Valentine of New England Rail Service will lead a workshop = on kitbashing Rivarossi Pullman cars. Bring a car you'd like to work on. >=20 > As always, the model display is the real heart of the meet. Please = bring your work -- completed in process or in parts! >=20 >=20 > SCHEDULE - subject to change > Thursday, June 3 > Tours of Branchline Trains, from 3:30 p.m. on. Contact Dave Owens = [dowens@courant.com, 860-209-8155] for details. >=20 > Friday, June 4 > 10 a.m. Resin Casting with Ben Brown >=20 > Diesel Detailing with Den Lippert >=20 > 11:30 a.m. The Milk Market for the Reading, Pennsylvania and Central = Railroad of New Jersey with John Greene > =09 > Prototype Intermodal Operations with Ramon Rhodes >=20 > 1 p.m. Lunch >=20 > 2 p.m. Modeling the Chessie System with Jeff Hanke >=20 > Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau >=20 > 3:30 p.m. Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey - = hands-on clinic >=20 > 6 p.m. Dinner break >=20 > 7: 30 p.m. Bob LaMay - slide show - Life Cycle of an FL-9 >=20 > 9 p.m. or so Pete McLachlan - slide show - Life on the Railroad >=20 > Saturday, June 5 > 9 a.m. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman > =09 > New England Milk Trains with Don Valentine >=20 > 10:30 a.m. Modeling Catenary with Rick Abramson >=20 > The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick >=20 > Noon Lunch break. >=20 > 1 p.m. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett >=20 > Railroading, a Behind the Scenes Look with Jim Tylick. >=20 > 2:30 p.m. Billboard Reefers and Other Disasters: How Government > Regulations Affected Car Building with Al Westerfield >=20 > Modeling a Maine Central/Guilford Rail System U18B with Mike Rose. >=20 > 4 p.m. Heavyweight Pullmans with Al Hoffman >=20 > A Century of Canadian National, with Dave Geisler >=20 > 5:30 p.m. Dinner break >=20 > 7:30 p.m. Tom Nanos - slide show - New England Railroad Photography- = from rosters to art=20 >=20 >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRR-Talk" Subject: Re: Incoming message Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:00:29 -0400 > > >Read the attach.

> > >
Password -
>
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For more information, you can contact the list administrator at: Listmaster !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:02:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, When S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html released DM & IR ore cars earlier this year, I thought I was safe from having to buy them en masse - until yesterday. In the PRR Color Guide 3 on page 101 is a FF1 pushing on a N8 (my original quest for looking at the photo) in what is probably the Thorndale PA area. Ahead of the N8 is the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range U-27 "Lake Superior" design 70 ton ore car which I am assuming would have been a unit train of ore cars. The photo was taken in 1958. Did this service start earlier then this? BTW ore car fans, these cars are BEAUTIFUL and R-T-R available in single and 5 car sets in a number of road names. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:15:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Locals and Cabins From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm thinking 1954, and a few specific instances, but I welcome responses to widen the topic... When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? Two case studies: 1) Harrisburg local... Takes a string of cars from the yard at Harrisburg for delivery at industries along the mains through the Harrisburg area. Relatively small operating area. 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile trip one way. I know the Enola-Rutherford Yard transfer runs had a cabin. Numerous photos document this. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Bill Lane wrote: > When S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html released > DM & IR ore cars earlier this year, I > thought I was safe from having to buy them en masse - until yesterday. > In the PRR Color Guide 3 on page 101 is a > FF1 pushing on a N8 (my original quest for looking at the photo) in > what is probably the Thorndale PA area. Ahead > of the N8 is the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range U-27 "Lake Superior" > design 70 ton ore car which I am assuming would > have been a unit train of ore cars. The photo was taken in 1958. Did > this service start earlier then this? Bill: The Philly ore pier opened in 1954, so that sets your EARLIEST possible date. PRR started sending its own hoppers -- mostly H21a and GLa -- west with iron ore. These same hoppers would bring coal east. The G39 cars, specifically designed for ore, would come along around 1959, IIRC. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:00:11 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 25, 2004, at 9:15 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm thinking 1954, and a few specific instances, but I welcome > responses to widen the topic... > > When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin > cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? Outside of yard limits, a "train" must have markers. With very few exceptions, they would be carried by a cabin car. In addition, the cabin was the crew office and "rider car"... remember that you might typically have five man crews, and they need somewhere to ride! Depending on the mode of operation, the cabin could be at the front, the back, the middle, or more than one cabin could be used. If a cabin is not protecting the end of the train, then the car must be flagged during the day and lit at night. > Two case studies: > > 1) Harrisburg local... Takes a string of cars from the yard at > Harrisburg for delivery at industries along the mains through the > Harrisburg area. Relatively small operating area.\ Outside yard limits? If so, a cabin was probably used. If not, it may still have rated a cabin. Most likely an N6B > 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York > Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile > trip one way. Absolutely a cabin, most likely an N6B. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:04:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 11:00 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Outside yard limits? If so, a cabin was probably used. If not, it > may still have rated a cabin. Most likely an N6B > > Absolutely a cabin, most likely an N6B. Bowser!!! Well, gonna have to go with an N5 for now! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:37:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I don't know where to start to find the photo, but there is one available of a mixed train of a DM&IR string and a Pennsy string of I believe both G38 and G39 cars, FWIW. Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like the era would suit Bill's purposes. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Bill Lane" Cc: "PRR Talk" ; "Steam Era Freight cars" Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR > On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Bill Lane wrote: > > > When S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html released > > DM & IR ore cars earlier this year, I > > thought I was safe from having to buy them en masse - until yesterday. > > In the PRR Color Guide 3 on page 101 is a > > FF1 pushing on a N8 (my original quest for looking at the photo) in > > what is probably the Thorndale PA area. Ahead > > of the N8 is the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range U-27 "Lake Superior" > > design 70 ton ore car which I am assuming would > > have been a unit train of ore cars. The photo was taken in 1958. Did > > this service start earlier then this? > > Bill: The Philly ore pier opened in 1954, so that sets your EARLIEST > possible date. PRR started sending its own hoppers -- mostly H21a and > GLa -- west with iron ore. These same hoppers would bring coal east. > The G39 cars, specifically designed for ore, would come along around > 1959, IIRC. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:35:01 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, As Bruce Smith has replied in another message, virtually ALL moves were made with a cabin car on the PRR.. Station and classification yard shifters were the only exceptions In N sacle, Gloor Craft, formerly Quality Craft makes a very nice N6b kit, BTW. They come up on eBay now and again. I've got one built and one still in kit form. And, no, they're not for sale! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:15 AM Subject: [PRR] Locals and Cabins > I'm thinking 1954, and a few specific instances, but I welcome > responses to widen the topic... > > When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin > cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? > > Two case studies: > > 1) Harrisburg local... Takes a string of cars from the yard at > Harrisburg for delivery at industries along the mains through the > Harrisburg area. Relatively small operating area. > > 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York > Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile > trip one way. > > I know the Enola-Rutherford Yard transfer runs had a cabin. Numerous > photos document this. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:35:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 01:35 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > In N sacle, Gloor Craft, formerly Quality Craft makes a very nice N6b > kit, > BTW. They come up on eBay now and again. I've got one built and one > still in > kit form. And, no, they're not for sale! Dang! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Gregg Mahlkov" , "PRR-Talk LIST" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:56:53 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 25, 2004, at 12:35 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 01:35 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > >> In N sacle, Gloor Craft, formerly Quality Craft makes a very nice N6b >> kit, >> BTW. They come up on eBay now and again. I've got one built and one >> still in >> kit form. And, no, they're not for sale! > > Dang! Worse, Gloor Craft appears to be out of business. A number of sources indicate production has recently ceased. In HO, I'm looking for their PRR Tower (Jack's). As for cabins, all you need to do is get one kit. I would then duplicate the sides and ends in styrene (or perhaps make a styrene master and resin copies), the roof and underbody in styrene, and the cupola sides/ends in resin. In HO, I had planned on doing that, but in fact will probably end up just scratch building most of the parts I need to finish my N4, using the Gloor Craft parts as a guide (I will use their steps) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] The Valparaiso Dummy Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:48:27 +0000 From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Older kits and how to get the models Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:56:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2004 21:20:18.0459 (UTC) FILETIME=[14365EB0:01C4429E] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello Y'all Combo Yankee and TXican. LOL Or Howdy you all. I remember the days of an Ambroid "one of a thousand" kit. If you needed more than one, and could not afford them, you would simply make from scratch using the plans from Ambroid. So if these Quality or Gloor are OOB, then why not just scan the plans, eMail them to who needs them, and make from scratch. Ambroid was wood, but what difference does that make. Styrene or this "new" stuff you call resin/rosin ? (sp). So what's the big deal. Now, if you need "let's say" about 4 or so, the construction could be more of an assembly line type. But again, not beyond the skill level of most of you/us. I realize this isn't "PRR", so why not make a huge volume of N6's and sell them? LOL The market is here. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.689 / Virus Database: 450 - Release Date: 05/21/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:59:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Older kits and how to get the models MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Morgan, Proof of what you said of what can be done using plans can be seen here: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/N6b_index.html That is what I did when I built my 1:29th Scale N6b. I used the O Scale plans from Quailty Craft's N6b for help in building. However, I don't see a lot of profit being made by scratch building them. Just way too much time involved. Say it took me about 20 hours to build an N Scale N6b and working at $10.00 and hour (thats cheap). Who would pay someone $200.00 for an N Scale styrene Cabin? Scratch Building for ones own fleet I can see though because of the enjoyment. Isn't the N Scale Gloor Craft Cabin still available? Just for the heck of it I bought one of the N Scale N6b kits at a local trainshow several years ago. ($4.00 if I recall). Built and painted it and sold it on eBay for $30 plus dollars. Was it someone here who bought it?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:19:13 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser N8 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:56:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N8 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Tom, Eventually, I believe an upgrade article of somekind will appear in future TKM. I have built one so far and have another waiting to go. You all read the reviews of the Bowser model. It has some fine features but it also has booboos. The Booboos, as I see them. #1. Bad representations of Crash Beams #2. Lack of Cushioned Coupler Pocket #3. Brake Rod interfer with Truck Swing (if built the way Bowser says to build it). Luckily, these Booboos can be dealt with. The Crash Beams were cut from the end railing piece, as well as the detail located at the top of the Beams. The arch that connects everything was also discarded. This was only cast on to give this piece strength. It is quite delicate after romoval so be careful when handling. New Evergreen Channels were glued in place and the horizontal Railings was replicated by using brass wire. The top details on the Crash Beams were fabricated with thin styrene. Just duplicate what Bowsers looked like, more or less. Tweezers come in handy here! The Cushioned Underframe/Coupler Pocket was much easier. I did it one way but I think there is a better way. What I did was shaved off the coupler pocket frame work, leaving the "pad " in place. I then glued a flat styrene extension from the end of the cast on center sill out to the point of 17" past the end sill. I then glued a KD#5 Coupler Box to the surface of this extension then glued very thin styrene overlays on the coupler box . That gave me the appearence of a Cushioned Coupler Pocket. I think a better way to model this is to use Channel for the extension itself. Trying to match the size Bowser used for their center sill if possible. Then mount the coupler somehow inside the channel. Once the coupler is installed, cap the channel with styrene. The position of the Fulcrum of the brake parts is located in a not so good place. I glued it where Bowser said to. Then attached the brake rods like directed to. Problem is when the trucks are mounted the flange of the wheels interfers with the rod and does not allow the truck to swing properly. 2 cures. Cut the rods short or mount the rods further towrards the center sill so they don't contact the wheel sets. As for the corner post Handrals, I didn't attempt it. If you don't hit the center of the posts perfectly with a size 80 bit, your screwed. Here are some pics of my finished N8. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/bowsern8.JPG http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/bowsern83.JPG http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/bowsern85.JPG Tom, you asked if the Crash Beams were worth it. Well, for me, Yes, I now know they are actual Channels instead of solid beams......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Carl Korn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:35:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Ore cars on the PRR Time of year may have been a factor but recall PRR leased these cars during ore jenny shortage to bring Venezuelan "mud" ore from Philadelphia to Pitcairn for Thomson Works or to Butler Junction for delivery to BLE where it went to Saxonburg washer prior to delivery to Union RR and I believe Thomson Works.also.--carl korn ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N6b Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:25:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am trying to move another one of my cabins out of the world of the = unpainted. I am hoping to get a side shot or at least the Cabin number of a center cupola N6b in Shadow Keystone with = it being Eastern or Phila. region? A tall order I know, but what the heck.... I would like the photo to see if I have to paint the whole cupola black = or just the roof surfaces. I have given a quick scan of the 3 color guides and the NJI cabin book to no avail. = They were mostly Lake or Southwestern regions. I know that there were over 800 N6 on the active roster in 1958. I hope = at least one fits all of my wish list. =20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:33:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've discovered an area in north Harrisburg that, according to the CT1000E, 1945 edition, had four tracks dedicated to "U.S. Government Ground Storage". This was in the Lucknow area, just east of the Rockville Bridge. For reference, the CT1000 entries for the area included: Cattle Car Disinfecting Siding M. W. Storehouse Lucknow Scrap Dock U.S. Government Ground Storage Nos. 1, 2, 3 & 4 Would this likely have been four storage tracks where cars sat for later use? Or four sidings in an area where stuff was offloaded for storage on the ground? Makes a big difference in the size of the facility and the scope of operations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:33:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've discovered an area in north Harrisburg that, according to the CT1000E, 1945 edition, had four tracks dedicated to "U.S. Government Ground Storage". This was in the Lucknow area, just east of the Rockville Bridge. For reference, the CT1000 entries for the area included: Cattle Car Disinfecting Siding M. W. Storehouse Lucknow Scrap Dock U.S. Government Ground Storage Nos. 1, 2, 3 & 4 Would this likely have been four storage tracks where cars sat for later use? Or four sidings in an area where stuff was offloaded for storage on the ground? Makes a big difference in the size of the facility and the scope of operations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser N8 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:40:46 -0400 RE: [PRR] Bowser N8
On my Bowser N8's, I will do the same as I do on all = my other cabeese/cabin models-- make the floor removable. That = way, I can have access to the inside to install window glass after = painting and weathering, and, especially for Pennsy cabins, that means = the crash beam/end assembly will be rigidly mounted to the body, so = there is less chance of messing things up by removing the top from the = body.

I do this before any other construction, by cutting = out the floor at the edges along the sides (from underneath, of = course). For length, I cut about six scale inches inside of the = ends, this gives me a small ledge to glue styrene from inside to make a = shelf that the floor can butt up against, and a pad for receiving = screws to hold everything together. I make sure the weight fits = inside the perimeter of this removable floor, and then move on to the = rest of the project, with all remaining work done right side up...I = think.

I'd be glad to draw you a picture, and will do so at = the RR Museum of Pennsylvania at "Pennsy Days" the weekend = after next. If it isn't too hot inside, I'll be hanging out = there, and easy to find.

Andrew Harmantas, using the term "cabin" = because I'm right next to C&O Milepost FM Zero.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4431E.AAF82CCC-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR - a little correction Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:51:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All Upon closer inspection the ore car in the N8 photo I mentioned yesterday = was actually B &LE not DM &IR. That was significant according to Tim Gilbert from the Steam Era Freight Cars = list. Here his 2 replies on the subject. The last PRR-LV Erie-Bethlehem Ore Train via the Shamokin Branch ran in = 1957. The ore was carried primarily in H-21's with the ore piled high onto the slope sheets to balance the load = over the bolsters - see Penn Valley video #1, The Ore Train." According to Hastings' PORTRAIT OF THE PRR, the = hoppers were sent down to the Philly Ore Pier or Baltimore (via the Bel-Del?) where they were reloaded with ore for = Johnstown or Pittsburgh. Tim Gilbert Most of DM&IR's ore cars were not designed for interchange. Their brake = system's connections were incompatible with the standard AAR connections (or so I have been told); hence, to = interchange any these cars, a transition car had to be used with one end having the AAR standard and the other the DM&IR = standard. Therefore, I would assume that any DM&IR ore car off road would be part of a unit made up of DM&IR cars = with transition cars at both ends of the unit. The DM&IR normally shut down ore operations when the Lakes froze. = Therefore, if there was a "DM&IR unit train" on the PRR, it would have to have been in the winter. That's possible if = steel production surged as it normally did just prior to a Steel strike - and there were a few of them during the = 1950's. Another possibility may be if an ore car was transferred to the B&LE by = the DM&IR, and the B&LE had not gotten around to relettering it. I don't know if this helps, Tim Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:25:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b Hi All, I am trying to move another one of my cabins out of the world of the unpainted. I am hoping to get a side shot or at least the Cabin number of a center cupola N6b in Shadow Keystone with it being Eastern or Phila. region? A tall order I know, but what the heck.... I would like the photo to see if I have to paint the whole cupola black or just the roof surfaces. I have given a quick scan of the 3 color guides and the NJI cabin book to no avail. They were mostly Lake or Southwestern regions. I know that there were over 800 N6 on the active roster in 1958. I hope at least one fits all of my wish list. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:25:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b Hi All, I am trying to move another one of my cabins out of the world of the unpainted. I am hoping to get a side shot or at least the Cabin number of a center cupola N6b in Shadow Keystone with it being Eastern or Phila. region? A tall order I know, but what the heck.... I would like the photo to see if I have to paint the whole cupola black or just the roof surfaces. I have given a quick scan of the 3 color guides and the NJI cabin book to no avail. They were mostly Lake or Southwestern regions. I know that there were over 800 N6 on the active roster in 1958. I hope at least one fits all of my wish list. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:21:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy West of Crestline A friend passed this on. Is this the former Pennsy line out of Crestline? RailAmerica, Inc. (ticker: RRA, exchange: New York Stock Exchange) News Release - 25-May-2004 Central Railroad of Indianapolis, a Subsidiary of RailAmerica, Inc. to Lease Rail Line From CSX Transportation Inc. BOCA RATON, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 25, 2004--RailAmerica, Inc. (NYSE:RRA) today announced that its subsidiary, Central Railroad of Indianapolis, notified the Surface Transportation Board (STB) that it intends to lease 276 miles of railroad from CSX Corporation's (NYSE: CSX) subsidiary, CSX Transportation, Inc., subject to negotiation and execution of a definitive agreement. The line, known as the Fort Wayne Corridor, runs west from Crestline, Ohio to Tolleston, Indiana, which is due east of Chicago. Central Railroad of Indianapolis anticipates moving approximately 42,000 carloads on the Fort Wayne Corridor annually. RailAmerica's Indiana & Ohio Railway directly connects and interchanges traffic with the Fort Wayne Corridor. Traffic on the line also interchanges with CSXT, Norfolk Southern and Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad Company (IHB), as well as all western & Chicago-based carriers through the IHB. Major customers on the line are Central Soya, Steel Dynamics, Procter & Gamble, Cargill and National Lime & Stone. Commodities shipped on the line include agricultural products, chemicals, metals, paper and minerals. RailAmerica, Inc., based in Boca Raton, Fla., is the world's premier short line and regional railroad operator, with 47 railroads operating approximately 12,000 miles in the United States, Canada, and Australia. The Company is a member of the Russell 2000(R) Index. Its website may be found at www.railamerica.com. CSX Corporation, based in Jacksonville, Fla., owns one of the largest rail networks in the United States. CSX Transportation Inc. and its 34,000 employees provide rail transportation services over a 23,000 mile route network in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSX Corporation also provides intermodal and global container terminal operations through other subsidiaries. Disclaimer Regarding Forward-Looking Statements: This press release contains forward-looking statements regarding future events and the performance of RailAmerica that involve risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially including, but not limited to, fuel costs, foreign currency risks, failure to consummate and/or successfully integrate acquisitions, failure to service debt, failure to successfully market and sell non-operating/non-strategic properties and assets when scheduled or at all, failure to accomplish new marketing initiatives, economic and weather conditions, customer demand, increased competition in the relevant market, and others. In particular, forward-looking statements regarding the performance and earnings of the Company and entities to be acquired are subject to inherent economic, financial and operating uncertainties, including changes in economic and weather conditions, the ability to retain key customers and the impact of unforeseen costs and liabilities of such entities. Forward-looking statements speak only as of the date the statement was made. The Company assumes no obligation to update forward-looking information to reflect actual results, changes in assumptions or changes in other factors affecting forward-looking information. If the Company does update any forward-looking statement, no inference should be drawn that the Company will make additional updates with respect to that statement or any other forward-looking statements. We refer you to the documents that RailAmerica files from time to time with the Securities and Exchange Commission, such as the Form 10-K, Form 10-Q and Form 8-K, which contain additional important factors that could cause its actual results to differ from its current expectations and from the forward-looking statements contained in this press release. CONTACT: RailAmerica, Boca Raton Susan Wright Greenfield, 561/994-6015 SOURCE: RailAmerica, Inc. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1085577701 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
A friend passed this on. Is this the= former Pennsy line out of Crestline?

Rai= lAmerica, Inc. (ticker: RRA, exchange: New York Stock Exchange) News Release= - 25-May-2004=20
Ce= ntral Railroad of Indianapolis, a Subsidiary of RailAmerica, Inc. to Lease R= ail Line From CSX Transportation Inc.=20

BOCA RATON, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 25, 2004--RailAmerica, Inc. (NYSE:= RRA) today announced that its subsidiary, Central Railroad of Indianapolis,=20= notified the Surface Transportation Board (STB) that it intends to lease 276= miles of railroad from CSX Corporation's (NYSE: CSX) subsidiary, CSX Transp= ortation, Inc., subject to negotiation and execution of a definitive agreeme= nt.

The line, known as the Fort Wayne Corridor, runs west from Crestline, Ohi= o to Tolleston, Indiana, which is due east of Chicago. Central Railroad of I= ndianapolis anticipates moving approximately 42,000 carloads on the Fort Way= ne Corridor annually.

RailAmerica's Indiana & Ohio Railway directly connects and interchang= es traffic with the Fort Wayne Corridor. Traffic on the line also interchang= es with CSXT, Norfolk Southern and Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad Company (IHB= ), as well as all western & Chicago-based carriers through the IHB. Majo= r customers on the line are Central Soya, Steel Dynamics, Procter & Gamb= le, Cargill and National Lime & Stone. Commodities shipped on the line i= nclude agricultural products, chemicals, metals, paper and minerals.

RailAmerica, Inc., based in Boca Raton, Fla., is the world's premier shor= t line and regional railroad operator, with 47 railroads operating approxima= tely 12,000 miles in the United States, Canada, and Australia. The Company i= s a member of the Russell 2000(R) Index. Its website may be found at www.rai= lamerica.com.

CSX Corporation, based in Jacksonville, Fla., owns one of the largest rai= l networks in the United States. CSX Transportation Inc. and its 34,000 empl= oyees provide rail transportation services over a 23,000 mile route network=20= in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSX Corpo= ration also provides intermodal and global container terminal operations thr= ough other subsidiaries.

Disclaimer Regarding Forward-Looking Statements:

This press release contains forward-looking statements regarding future e= vents and the performance of RailAmerica that involve risks and uncertaintie= s that could cause actual results to differ materially including, but not li= mited to, fuel costs, foreign currency risks, failure to consummate and/or s= uccessfully integrate acquisitions, failure to service debt, failure to succ= essfully market and sell non-operating/non-strategic properties and assets w= hen scheduled or at all, failure to accomplish new marketing initiatives, ec= onomic and weather conditions, customer demand, increased competition in the= relevant market, and others. In particular, forward-looking statements rega= rding the performance and earnings of the Company and entities to be acquire= d are subject to inherent economic, financial and operating uncertainties, i= ncluding changes in economic and weather conditions, the ability to retain k= ey customers and the impact of unforeseen costs and liabilities of such enti= ties. Forward-looking statements speak only as of the date the statement was= made. The Company assumes no obligation to update forward-looking informati= on to reflect actual results, changes in assumptions or changes in other fac= tors affecting forward-looking information. If the Company does update any f= orward-looking statement, no inference should be drawn that the Company will= make additional updates with respect to that statement or any other forward= -looking statements. We refer you to the documents that RailAmerica files fr= om time to time with the Securities and Exchange Commission, such as the For= m 10-K, Form 10-Q and Form 8-K, which contain additional important factors t= hat could cause its actual results to differ from its current expectations a= nd from the forward-looking statements contained in this press release.
<= /FONT>
CONTACT: RailAmerica, Boca Raton Susan Wright Greenfield, 561/994-6015 SOURCE: RailAmerica, Inc.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&= amp;HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003
-------------------------------1085577701-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:52:44 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] RE: Bowser N8 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:39:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: 44 Tonnrs on Wabash From: John Sheets Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:45:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Ore Cars on the PRR From: John Sheets From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] JMRI interface Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:22:28 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] JMRI interface Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:22:28 +0000 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:25:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Broadway Limited has posted new pictures of their J1 on their website. She looks pretty good. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:47:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Now that's more like it! They did away with the red roof. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 > Broadway Limited has posted new pictures of their J1 on their website. She looks pretty good. > Eric > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:03:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: But it still looks like there is a lack of cold water pump and piping along the firemans side trailing truck. Looks like they never updated that missing item. Pretty near to release date so it looks like something we will need to add on our own......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:42:13 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: >> When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin >> cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? >> 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York >> Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile >> trip one way. > > Absolutely a cabin, most likely an N6B. Jerry, the data base on your website shows 4 N6B assigned to service on the Cumberland Valley Division (2 at Enola [CV3-4, CV95-96], 1 at Chambersburg [CV58-59], and 1 at Hagerstown [CV95-96]). I don't know which of these were locals and which weren't, but I suspect at least CV58-59 were. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:41:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update to My Web site I have finished listing of all the yard and road switchers as of January 1958 and am now on to the next project, Road Freight Assignments from April 1957. This will cover mostly cab units with some GP9's included. On the 1957 Assignments they have also included in the maintenance point for the locomotives and the regional assignment. Dayna & Randy Williamson http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:41:29 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update to My Web site From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] PA and Bowser N8 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:15:38 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] PA and Bowser N8 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:15:38 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] The Valparaiso Dummy Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:20:39 -00 >From: ted_andrews@msn.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] The Valparaiso Dummy >Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:48:27 +0000 From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:54:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Ken, Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc. The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day although I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding. I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visit. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1085658877 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Ken,

Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a=20= rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursvi= lle at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experien= ce that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc.

The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day althoug= h I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding.

I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visi= t.

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1085658877-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:54:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Ken, Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc. The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day although I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding. I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visit. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1085658877 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Ken,

Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a=20= rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursvi= lle at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experien= ce that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc.

The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day althoug= h I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding.

I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visi= t.

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1085658877-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:14:52 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:49:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Tom, You know, sitting here in my recliner 12 feet away from the TV and my webtv setup, I couldn't see the pump. But up close as in the case of looking at a normal Computer Screen something does show up. So BLI looks like they are again listening to advice coming their way. Does the DGLE color look darker on this newest photo as well? Aside from the 2 very minor problems seen in the newest photo, (the Bell should be Black , not Brass and the mis-shaped Keystone Plate) this is one impressive looking J. Any reports on where this is being built yet? China or Korea? I am hoping Korea just like the T1's. Last week someone asked if any of the J's were assinged to the Pittsburgh Div, or something to that effect. I think the poster was reffering to any of the BLI J1's numbers, not just any J's. If I recall correctly from past conversations, one of these J's is a Pittburgh assigned Loco while the other 2 were Ohio assigned, probabby Columbus based. But you know, I don't remember which one was seen working the Pittsburgh Div. Maybe a little birdie will let me know later today. If so, I will share it here......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 1944 Assignments Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:34:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:11:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Has anyone heard when she is going to hit the stores? Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:09:07 -0500 To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 27, 2004, at 12:11 PM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > Has anyone heard when she is going to hit the stores? > Thanks, > Eric Eric, They're listing them for June delivery, so the "new" pre-production model is most likely the first one off the line . We've seen about a month lag from the last pre-production shots to delivery, so they may make that June date! Interestingly, their first car offering is still listed as due May 2004...not sure they are going to make that one and the K7A is listed for July. I wonder when we'll see the official I1 announcement? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:18:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 02:09 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > On May 27, 2004, at 12:11 PM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > >> Has anyone heard when she is going to hit the stores? >> Thanks, >> Eric > > Eric, > > They're listing them for June delivery, so the "new" pre-production > model is most likely the first one off the line . We've seen about > a month lag from the last pre-production shots to delivery, so they > may make that June date! Interestingly, their first car offering is > still listed as due May 2004...not sure they are going to make that > one and the K7A is listed for July. The second run of M1's is now shipping. I got my dealer invoice for the M1's two days before the invoice for the J1's. Not that there's a connection or anything, but it implies "soon". No word on cars. > > I wonder when we'll see the official I1 announcement? When will we see that first n scale announcement is what I want to know!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] New Walthers Offering Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:47:18 -0400 A new dealer mailing I received from Walthers outlining new products=20 indicates they will be offering a Pennsy B60 baggage car in HO next = spring. Would any listmembers who worked on this project care to = comment on what B60 configuration(s) they will be offering?? Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44401.E3F61D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
A new dealer mailing I received from = Walthers=20 outlining new products

indicates they will be offering a = Pennsy B60=20 baggage car in HO next spring. Would any listmembers who worked on = this=20 project care to comment on what

B60 configuration(s) they will be=20 offering??

Frank Brua
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44401.E3F61D70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:57:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Offering From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 03:47 PM, Park Varieties wrote: > A new dealer mailing I received from Walthers outlining new products > indicates=A0 they will be offering a Pennsy B60 baggage car in HO next=20= > spring.=A0 Would any listmembers who worked on this project care to=20 > comment on what > B60 configuration(s) they will be offering?? You can get them THIS SPRING from Bethlehem Car Works / InterMountain.=20= Albeit higher price, but probably a better model. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Walthers Offering Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:08:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <0A7C5D34-B018-11D8-8A34-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, Not to be a smarta$$ but I've seen no evidence that the BCW cars will be at the dealers this spring, and there's only about 4 more weeks of spring left for this year. Have you got any additional details on this offering that you can share? Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 2:57 PM To: Park Varieties Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Offering On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 03:47 PM, Park Varieties wrote: > A new dealer mailing I received from Walthers outlining new products > indicates� they will be offering a Pennsy B60 baggage car in HO next > spring.� Would any listmembers who worked on this project care to > comment on what > B60 configuration(s) they will be offering?? You can get them THIS SPRING from Bethlehem Car Works / InterMountain. Albeit higher price, but probably a better model. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 08:05:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Offering From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 07:08 PM, Christopher Baker wrote: > Not to be a smarta$$ but I've seen no evidence that the BCW cars will > be at > the dealers this spring, and there's only about 4 more weeks of spring > left > for this year. Have you got any additional details on this offering > that > you can share? According to InterMountain, the first paint scheme should be on the June release list. That'll be posted the second week of June. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:51:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? Jerry, I would think for painting wood and walls that matching the buff and brown combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (blue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might be a better choice. DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an interior application. Just my opinion. Rich Orr -------------------------------1085755905 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@p= ennsyrr.com writes:

Would there be any interest with the modelers=20= out there in having the
PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national= chain -- such as Home
Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Gre= en Locomotive Enamel
and/or Tuscan Red?

No, I'm not trying to pil= e work on them, but if enough people want
decent matches for painting wo= od in their layout rooms, perhaps a
standard would be in order so we don= 't all have to recreate the wheel.

I've decided DGLE would probably b= e too dark for the fascia, but would
work for legs and other lower level= benchwork. Then again, I could just
use black.

I am considering=20= Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to
the green that most=20= use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would
like it or not. Has anyo= ne tried it?

Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will pr= obably go
Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would=20= be a flat.

Carl, anything to say on the subject?
<= /DIV>
Jerry,

I would think for painting wood and walls that matching the buff and br= own combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (bl= ue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might be a better choice.&= nbsp; DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an interior application.=

Just my opinion.

Rich Orr
-------------------------------1085755905-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:57:32 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry and list, PPG paint no. 7167 is a very close match to PRR Tuscan Red The doors and trim of my house are painted that color! The house is brick and the windows are anodized dark bronze. Just had the doors repainted a few weeks ago. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > and/or Tuscan Red? > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > use black. > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:53:41 -0500 I actually prefer a very dark colored fascia. I'll be painting mine semi-gloss black, with all support work and ceiling semi-gloss white to reflect light (any little bit helps). Personally, I think wood paneling is the worst for fascias, with light colors such as buff or tan being second. And hunter green's been done to death. Black's the preferred color for stage design. I'd think DGLE would work very well for a fascia color. It's nearly black and would draw attention towards the actual layout. Ray Breyer _____ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:52 AM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? Jerry, I would think for painting wood and walls that matching the buff and brown combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (blue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might be a better choice. DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an interior application. Just my opinion. Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C444A2.0A733690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

I actually prefer a very dark = colored fascia. I’ll be painting mine semi-gloss black, with all = support work and ceiling semi-gloss white to reflect light (any little bit helps). Personally, I think wood paneling is the worst for = fascias, with light colors such as buff or tan being second. And hunter = green’s been done to death. Black’s the preferred color for stage = design.

I’d think DGLE would work = very well for a fascia color. It’s nearly black and would draw = attention towards the actual layout.

Ray Breyer

From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = SUVCWORR@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, = 2004 8:52 AM
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout = Room Paint

In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern = Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

Would there be any interest with the modelers out = there in having the
PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home =
Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel =
and/or Tuscan Red?

No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want
decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a
standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the = wheel.

I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would =
work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just =
use black.

I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to =
the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would
like it or not. Has anyone tried it?

Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go
Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a = flat.

Carl, anything to say on the subject?

Jerry,

I would think for painting wood and walls that = matching the buff and brown combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (blue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might = be a better choice. DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an = interior application.

Just my opinion.

Rich Orr

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C444A2.0A733690-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:02:01 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:50:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 May 2004 16:02:27.0217 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C1B0810:01C444CD] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all Just IMHO but: How about this "committee" developed the paints with the manufacturer, such as "Behr's". And all the exact schemes needed. Dark Building, Light Building, etc. I can't remember the exact names off the top of my head. But y'all know what I mean. A few major colors. Layout's can then be the green, brown, tan or whatever. Behr is the one brand I remember sells to Home Depot or was it Lowes. But the idea Jerry presents is a good one. And would require a committee to do it. And are there enough People available to do this work? Some years ago, I had a house painter take my color cards I had of Building dark and light. Matched them by computer and paint my mobile home and shed. He did a great job, but time and sun (I'm in TX) have taken their toll. And that darn painter never returned the cards. And as y'all know, those cards are no longer available. Maybe next time, I'll use the two tone grey for my house. LOL So consider this my second for Jerry's nomination of a project very worthwhile to this group. I just noticed Gregg's mention of a Tuscan paint already available. But noted that he said "very close match". So if that is acceptable to this "committee", then could be part of the recommendations from the committee. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.689 / Virus Database: 450 - Release Date: 05/21/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:45:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers, I strongly prefer black or very dark fascia. My current choise is available at Lowe's, Blackwatch Green Interior Eggshell. It photographs like DGLE, but still helps the eye ignore the end of the world, as does flat black. But with station signs, delux or buff lettering etc. I think it has PRR class. Bob McKay DuBois PA Susquehanna Div. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:00:36 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry: I would advise you against the T-Red for the fascia. It will be overwhelming and distract from the layout. Use dark green or even black. That's the approach to theater.......paint anything around the stage black. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > and/or Tuscan Red? > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > use black. > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:51:40 -00 >From: jerry@pennsyrr.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint >Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:30 -0400 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:08:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: We have the Upland Green that Dave Barrow started years ago. A compromise with browns and greens of regular scenery so it doesn't distract. Black "frames" the layout, a shadow box technique I will use on my home layout in a room with other black/cherry furniture. Black is definitely the way to go to have something "disappear". Guys had all sorts of brilliant ideas to "scenic" a post in a yard---I suggested paint it flat black until you decide. Knew everyone would forget it was there then :-).And it is better than any "scenery" on a post I have ever seen. Slightly offtopic, but along the stage bit, Lyric Opera production of Madame Butterfly had stagehands on stage quite a few times during scenes---never noticed them dressed in complete black outfits. One of the MR guys warned about using black for the layout room ceiling though---his warning came from personal experience---just made room too dark. Can't remember if anyone tried it with floors but I think it creates same problem. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Reynolds" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > Jerry: > > I would advise you against the T-Red for the fascia. It will be > overwhelming and distract from the layout. Use dark green or even black. > That's the approach to theater.......paint anything around the stage black. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:02 AM > Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > > > > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > > and/or Tuscan Red? > > > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > > use black. > > > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:54:33 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg-Phila trip report Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and all: Made a quick trip to Philly and back today and can report the following: Welded rail is going in on the westbound (#2) track between Cork and Elizabethtown. All traffic is using #1 track between those points, necessitating a temporary block station at E-town. Newly installed welded rail is already in place on #2 track between Elizabethtown and Roy Interlocking. AFAIK, the Middletown-Lancaster stretch was/is the last stand of stick rail on the Harrisburg line with the possible exception of inside Tracks 2 and 3 Paoli-Zoo. Train 646 (P42 Number 2 and 3 Amfleet cars) this morning was not full. Train 647 this afternoon (P42+5 Amfleet) was almost SRO. 30th Street engine terminal and yard were stocked with P42s, one B40-8W, two AEM-7s, one HHL-8, variously colored Geep pumpkins (some orange, some platinum mist), one platinum mist GP38, one GP40TC, one Acela trainset, and (drum roll, please), PRR 120 + Warrior Ridge. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 20:12:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry: I would recommend an earth tone for the fascia. One of the open HO layouts in the Cincinnati had an earthy green that I thought looked very good. Doug. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:03 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/28/04 Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 23:35:48 -0400 From: "PRR-Talk" Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/28/04 Subject: Layout Room Paint From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:30 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 00:50:42 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint -- including multi-deck... Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry/all: 2 comments... 1st -- with Home Depot and the like -- I have found them unable to make even a "standard color" (one they have the specs for) look identical between 2 different gallons purchased a year or so apart. Even if you have a formula, there would be certain variations. 2nd -- with fascia color. I have seen layouts with dark green/black and with light green/brown earth tones. I would say 2 different effects are achieved. The dark colors make the layout standout and it is more obvious you are at the "edge of the world". This can be GOOD if you are trying to draw attention to the scenery. With the earth tones, they blend into the scenery more and there is less to draw your eye (which can be good if you are trying for this effect)... One other important note -- I saw one multi-deck layout with the earth tones and I hated it... Sky blended into fascia into scenery into sky into fascia into scenery... and I actually found it annoying after about 1/2 hour looking. The layout owner must have agreed because I went back about a year later and it was forest green... All of a sudden, your eye was drawn to the different decks of the layout it it seemed more "soothing".. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: [PRR] MicroTrains PRR Tri-Level Auto Racks Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:59:24 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD0257@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: MicroTrains has n scale PRR Tri-level auto racks coming in June. Can anyone tell me what year the PRR first used these cars? Thanks, Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:57:39 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: [PRR] PRR KASE tower enquiry Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm seeking photos or drawings of PRR's KASE tower near Sunbury, PA as it appeared in the 1940-60 period for modeling project. Also: When was it rebuilt or replaced? When was it razed? What was the color scheme? Anybody know where the interlocking diagrams can be located? Other structures in Sunbury, PRR or RDG, need photos as well. Other Shamokin Branch and Norry area fans and modellers could contact us off-line if you want to exchange info on transition era trains and facilities. Jim Herzog out there? Thanks, owen thorne -- Owen Thorne Fairhill, MD owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:03:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: query From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: [PRR] Rockville Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:59:48 -0400 I'm still looking for the footprint dimensions of Rockville Tower. = Always figured I'd just whip out my camera and measuring tape. I do = have estimates from published photos, but would appreciate dimensions = and exterior detail shots. Thanks. Bob McKay DuBois, PA Susquehanna Div. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C445A6.BB7F5B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I'm still looking for = the footprint=20 dimensions of Rockville Tower. Always figured I'd just whip out my = camera=20 and measuring tape. I do have estimates from published photos, but = would=20 appreciate dimensions and exterior detail shots. = Thanks.

Bob McKay

DuBois, = PA

Susquehanna=20 Div.
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C445A6.BB7F5B30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:43:20 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Could anybody point me in the direction of some interior photos of an REA bulding operation? I was looking into building an REA building for the railroad club I belong to, and do a cutaway view showing the interior of the building. Any and all help is appreciated. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:43:20 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Could anybody point me in the direction of some interior photos of an REA bulding operation? I was looking into building an REA building for the railroad club I belong to, and do a cutaway view showing the interior of the building. Any and all help is appreciated. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] What if the PRR had Budd RDCs? From: "mkwb@excite.com" Message-Id: <20040601215554.DCF5C299D3@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What if the PRR had decided to purchase Rail Diesel Cars from Budd? What kind of PRR-specific modifications or additions might have been made (that would be worth modeling)? Which type (RDC-1, 2, 3 or 4) would the PRR have purchased the most? What might have been the number series? Where on the system might they have been used and how? I like to think the paint scheme might have been all-stainless steel, with black lettering in the letterboard (extended Roman font early, Helvetica or Arial later in the immediate pre-merger years), and keystone logos at both ends. Or, how about tuscan red letterboards with gold leaf Roman lettering (kind of like the CP's early scheme)? Opinions? Ideas? I'd like to model myself some hypothetical PRR RDC cars in HO scale, and would like to hear some ideas. Thanks in advance, Mike Bartel _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] What if the PRR had Budd RDCs? From: "mkwb@excite.com" Message-Id: <20040601215554.DCF5C299D3@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What if the PRR had decided to purchase Rail Diesel Cars from Budd? What kind of PRR-specific modifications or additions might have been made (that would be worth modeling)? Which type (RDC-1, 2, 3 or 4) would the PRR have purchased the most? What might have been the number series? Where on the system might they have been used and how? I like to think the paint scheme might have been all-stainless steel, with black lettering in the letterboard (extended Roman font early, Helvetica or Arial later in the immediate pre-merger years), and keystone logos at both ends. Or, how about tuscan red letterboards with gold leaf Roman lettering (kind of like the CP's early scheme)? Opinions? Ideas? I'd like to model myself some hypothetical PRR RDC cars in HO scale, and would like to hear some ideas. Thanks in advance, Mike Bartel _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 03:11:24 -00 From: johnf2384@suscom.net Subject: RE: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:43:20 -0400 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention side trip Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:23:43 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, indeed. My two friends and I are visiting Dayton on the Tuesday prior to the Convention. Looking forward to it immensely. Later the following week we'll be visiting an aeronautical engineer friend up in Michigan who worked on the X-15 and the YF-12. Other side trips we've got planned are: Trainspotting at Fostoria. BelleVue NKP Museum Whitewater Valley Railroad Noblesville Railroad Museum Elkhart NYC Museum ( no comments, please :-) Henry Ford Museum Now I've just got to find the energy to do it all. Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Convention side trip > For those of you planning to go to Dayton on the way home or who were planning to by-pass Dayton by taking I-71 to Columbus there is a non-PRR item of interest to some in Dayton. Wright Patterson Air Force base on the NE side of Dayton is the home of the Air Force museum. Planes on display range from Wirght Brothers era through the SR-71. Well worth a couple of hours or more of time. Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 00:54:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] H. S. Kerbaugh, H. K. Porter, PRR projects (long) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Bob and the Group: Regarding Kerbaugh and the Kittanning Point entry. About 1899, Horseshoe Curve was widened to three tracks, and again in 1900 to four tracks. Work was proceeding all along the main line as a result of A.J. Cassatt's project to widen the entire New York-Pgh main line to a four-track standard. Cassatt came into office in 1899 and started to rebuild the railroad. Drake & Stratton got a lot of the work, too. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. robert netzlof wrote: >A few months ago I got a copy of the H. K. Porter Catalog reprint >published by the NMRA. In the construction list, my eye was caught by >several "bulk orders" by H. S. Kerbaugh. What may be more interesting were the destinations and dates. In several cases I know from other sources that PRR was doing major work >at the places noted and around the dates given. Here's the list: > >Johnstown...... 1898 Dec 1 >.................... Aug 1 >Kittaning Pt... 1899 Jun 2 >Irwin.......... 1900 Mar 1 >Pittsburgh..... 1901 Feb 3 >.................... Mar 1 >.................... Aug 3 >Summerhill Sta. 1901 Feb 5 >.................... Apr 4 >.................... May 5 >.................... Jun 4 >.................... Sep 4 >............... 1902 Jan 2 >.................... Feb 1 >Fayette City... 1901 Nov 2 >W. Brownsville. 1901 Dec 2 >California..... 1901 Dec 2 >Altoona........ 1902 Jun 2 >Elizabeth Furn. 1902 Nov 5 >.................... Dec 5 >Maryville...... 1903 Jan 4 >Philadelphia... 1903 Mar 4 >.................... Apr 1 >.................... Aug 3 >............... 1905 Aug 13 >............... 1910 Jun 3 >.................... Aug 2 >............... 1911 May 4 >St. Paris, OH.. 1906 Sep 6 >.................... Oct 8 >Pitcairn....... 1906 Nov 6 >.................... Dec 1 >Livermore...... 1906 Dec 5 >Blairsville.... 1906 Oct 3 >.................... Nov 1 >.................... Dec 2 >Pequea, OH..... 1906 Sep 2 >.................... Nov 2 >.................... Dec 7 >Chickies....... 1906 Nov 2 >Bolivar........ 1906 Nov 2 >McCalls Ferry.. 1906 Nov 2 > >It could be that some of those engines in the list for Philadelphia >actually went somewhere else. That is, I'm taking the place name to >be the "ship to" address. It is possible that here or there one of >the names might really be the "billing address". I have no way of >knowing. > >It may be interesting that through Feb 1901, the customer is given as >"H. S. Kerbaugh". Orders after that date are listed as "H. S. >Kerbaugh, Inc." > >I've tried to spell names as I found them in the book cited (but >"Pequea" worries me). It is possible that I missed an order here or >there. The list is presented in the book in order by construction >number, one locomotive per line. Some of the quantities above are the >sums of several separate entries in the book which were interspersed >among other entries. That is, I could easily have counted or added >incorrectly. > >It would be interesting to know what was going on at each of those >locations in the months following the dates shown in the list. >Whatever it was, it would seem that H. S. Kerbaugh could have said >"The Pennsylvania Railroad has been very, very good to me." > >===== >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:47:15 -0500 Hi Doug--The bracket--actually two different ones--comes with Calscale = 190-400, which is the correct horn. Use Detail Associates 229-1012 = "Pyle Conversion Plate" for the headlights; scrape off original = headlight, glue on the DA part, wait until it is dry before drilling new = holes for lights. Not hard if you are very careful. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Day=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 7:31 PM Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does = anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and = numbers for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C42FBD.7CA1F610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Doug--The bracket--actually two = different=20 ones--comes with Calscale 190-400, which is the correct horn. Use = Detail=20 Associates 229-1012 "Pyle Conversion Plate" for the = headlights; scrape off=20 original headlight, glue on the DA part, wait until it is dry = before=20 drilling new holes for lights. Not hard if you are very=20 careful.

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas=20 Day

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 = 7:31=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn = bracketand dual=20 vertical headlights.

List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. = Also need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical = headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug =
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C42FBD.7CA1F610-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 00:01:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi John--You want isopropyl alcohol; my bottle says 91%. Steve Hoxie Pensacola Fl ----- Original Message ----- From: "beth capl caples" To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:45 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint > I was to use alcohol from the drugstore that is 90% alcohol. When I > asked for some. The Pharmacist had about 4 different varieties to choose > from. Isopropyl, rubbing, methyl, ethol, denatured, butyl, etc. He > went on to say what each one was used for and so I was so overwhelmed > with information. I had no idea which type was what I needed. > Could someone please tell me which alcohol type I need ? > Thank You, John Caples > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 11:37:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: No evidence I have ever seen of any C-liners in passenger service on PRR. No steam generators for one thing. For another, they were geared for freight. Finally, by the time they came along (1950) , there was already a surplus of passenger motive power and due to lack of reliability the non-EMD passenger units for the most part were being shifted the other way, to freight. Even the dual-service FP7s began to mainly run freight except Christmas mail trains. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Miller" > Did the PRR ever use Brunswick green Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners to haul > passenger trains or were they confined to freight service? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:29:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4095B569.9080101@att.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dan, The PRR passenger steam locomotives were serviced at the 55th st enginehouse, located at the south end of the 55th st yard on the PFtW&C. I have Chicago Division ETTs dated Sep 1934, April 1946, and April 1951. All show all classes of steam except B, C, & H restricted from the Englewood Connecting line. However, I also have another April 1951 ETT with a bunch of general notices pasted in that show the restrictions for all steam classes lifted due to the rebuilding of the Englewood Connecting line. My speculation is that about this time (4/51) the diesel shop at the 16th street coach yards was up and running and the 55th st enginehouse was closed. Freight steam at 55th st yard could then traverse the Englewood Connecting line to be serviced at the 59th st enginehouse. However, I am still trying to obtain factual evidence as to exactly when the 16th st diesel shop opened and the 55th st enginehouse closed. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:37:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. Assuming that scuttlebutt is true (BLI doesn't seem to be as concerned about advance rumors as some, probably because they seem to have a flow going, hopefully cash flow as well, or they are less threatened in the non-Big Boy, non-cab-forward steam market by potential competitors for now) , they must have heard me bending Pete Reinhold's ear at his booth at our club's swap meet on what I consider the most needed Pennsy loco (on a par with an H10---or H9) :-). I was concerned that the fact there were already two shall-we-politely-say less-than-perfect ones already out there might mean BLI would give it a pass. I can't wait to have a DCC-friendly,sound-equipped K4 with correct driver diameter, accurate stoker tender, and decent tractive effort. Or two . With and without front-end modernization. Why do I think they will also produce 3768 and/or 3678 as well? (now that is my rumor---not theirs :-)) I must have had a premonition as I sold two of my Bachmann K4s at that swap meet. If the scuttlebutt is true and both the K4 and I1 are ahead of the H class, now I know where I will shift my Soundtraxx unit from my Bowser M1: to my brass H10. I'll do without the banshee whistle for now. Anyone know if any H10s got a multichime whistle later in life? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Annual Meeting Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:27:26 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040501.151330.3072.0.caples5@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: This year's annual meeting was excellent due to the great work done by the Cincinnati crew. They deserve a big thanks. The highlight for me was the dinner in the spectacular rotunda of the CUT. This is truly an Art Deco architectural gem, and the adaptive reuse as a museum center was very well done. Tower A was great with its view of the massive Queensgate Yard. Although a number of regulars from the east did not attend, it was good to see the great turnout overall (about the same number of other annual meetings). The program's were well done and I have to also mention the great work done by Ted Andrew's for his program on Warsaw, Indiana. This was one of the best examples of analysis of primary source data that was synthesized into a unique look at PRR operations, much of which is relevant system-wide. Ted received train sheets (tower operators records of every train) that were rescued from the tower in Warsaw days before it was bulldozed. The train sheets covered the entire year of 1965 and included train number, lead loco number, time, and time at the previous tower. From this raw data, Ted was able to digest the information to show an entire year's worth of every train's on-time performance, speed, locomotive assignments. Much of this analysis was illustrated with graphic charts. This information and level of detail is probably not available from any other sources. I look forward to seeing this in the Keystone. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:53:36 -0400 From: Ken Nesbitt [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com] Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nesbitt AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:29:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry I didn't include this the first time. In case anyone out there recognizes names... On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see > foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might > be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many > freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear > 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. 013 in 1954 was D. E. Schlegel. Was he in Enola? 015 was T. A. Foust. Was he in Harrisburg? > > If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of > which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is > likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, > which I suspect is Enola. 021 was P. M. Maston. Was he in Enola? 023 was B. J. Murtha. Was he in Harrisburg? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:32:54 -0400 Subject: Private: Re: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:34:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 10:31 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became > painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! > > As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and > there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest > subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). H30s outnumber H30A by a significant margin (1325 to 250 in Oct 53). It is interesting that we have only recently gotten an H30 in HO (the new F&C release). Supposedly both are coming sometime in styrene. > The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for > cement? I kind of doubt it. Yes, initially these cars were built to haul cement. Subsequently some additional commodities were added like sand, but in your period (1953-54) grain was still hauled mostly in box cars. I would primarily dedicate them to cement. Mine will be exclusively for cement hauling > > Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? PRR built (although I'm struggling to confirm that), and unique to the PRR. H30/H30A continued in revenue company and MOW service into Conrail. Note that TKM #8 has an in depth review of the H30/H30A by Al Buchan and Bob Johnson - its the most complete and authoritative source on H30 hoppers. And of course for those who don't leave Rob Schoenberg's site open 24/7, his page has some good data too...http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=H30 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:46:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 02:36 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Where and how many sleepers were set out between New York and Chicago? > What trains had set outs? What were the set out locations for diners? You need to preface your query with an era. As for 1954, the "24 Hours at Harrisburg" essay I did years ago shows all of the setouts and pickups that took place there... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ The Makeup of Trains books will have a lot of that information as well, but again, pick a date! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:27:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:43:54 +0000 >From: Jerry Britton >Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 >Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:53:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:35:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: MS60 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It was separate in through the 1930's or so. We have definitive proof (original PRR docs) that it was not later. On Friday, May 7, 2004, at 03:17 PM, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture > of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:50:46 -0400 To: RickTipton@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since=20 > PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit=20= > that we just don't know.=A0 Personally, I'm hoping more info = eventually=20 > surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown.=A0 But as of now, = there=20 > just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 17:47:51 -0400 Return-Path: bobspf@wi.rr.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2004 21:47:51.0647 (UTC) FILETIME=[46FAD6F0:01C4360F] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Original Message: ----------------- From: Ted Andrews Ted_Andrews@msn=2Ecom Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks?=20 A=2E Yes=2E I am away from home, but the statistics for the percentage of returning troops from the Pacific who lived in the Northeast is extremely high=2E Almost any car used in troop service probably made it to the PRR=2E= And the kitchen cars lasted into the Korean war, as the Keystone articles on the Ohio wreck documents=2E Did they ever run combined with the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2?=20 A=2E Dunno=2E Can't imagine why not=2E What was the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy?=20 A=2E Anywhere from one troop Pullman (which by itself could constitute a "Main") to 3 or 4 "sets" which (going from memory) were 1 kitchen car and= 4 or 5 troop sleepers each=2E Plus headend baggage/express cars=2E Intermi= xed here and there with standard Pullmans=2E Were P70 coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 A=2E See the Korean War era Ohio wreck=2E 2 X29s, 2 kitchen cars, 2 PUC??= and multiple P70=2E In a way almost anything goes for troop trains, so getting= hold of specific consists is not a bad way to get ideas=2E I will probably use about six troop sleepers, a kitchen, standard Pullman,= plus X29 and B60 for my abbreviated train=2E Or a portion of them on the head or tail end of a regular consist=2E =20 Bob Zoeller -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:42:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Troop trains and the Ohio wreck From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you referring to the > wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one tell me the > date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone covered this? > > Fred Rea Fred et al, The Keystone, Vol 24, no 4, Winter 1991 covers the wreck of a troop train on May 21, 1945 in Piqua Ohio. I don't beleive this was the wreck being refferred to, since Korea was mentioned, but this consist was 17 cars. Of the cars detailed in the article, Troop Sleepers 7822 and 7735 flank Troop Kitchen K-178. Flanking these cars are 12-1 Pullman heavy weights (Tourist cars). The ssame issue also covers the collision of a B&O and PRR trains on March 22, 1942 at the B&O/PRR diamonds in Pequa. Since the B&O train was mainly made up of loaded tank cars, the results were pretty intense... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:42:57 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Thread-Index: AcQ3Z0F0kxRD/4WYTRqBknN7h8nS1wAB0QLw From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" , , "PRR-FAX" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:42:57.0602 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1F03220:01C4376E] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Cresline served both. Separate facilities existed in Detroit and Toledo. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:59:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 In-Reply-To: <87.b987a9b.2dd2c700@aol.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Does anyone know the station used by the Bessemer - was it the Union Sta. or did it have its own? The B&LE had their own passenger and freight station on the south side of 12th Street between Sassafras and Peach Streets, two blocks directly north of Union Station. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] MSTS PRR equipment Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:50:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <051220041349.26655.40A22B59000E9CF50000681F2158766720FF8D8D8F9D9B@att.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Fascinating, but I have a few questions. Didn't the P70 have = individual, but non-reclining seats. I think their interior artwork is based on an = MP54 rather than a P70. And what is that Pullman they show?? Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:49 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] MSTS PRR equipment If you run Microsoft Train simulator you might want to check out this = web page for PRR equipment they will be releasing at some point. Click on = the ABOUT button for some pictures of M1, L1, K4, P70's and other stuff. http://www.trainartisan.com/talink.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Headend cars Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:07:49 -0400 Steve Sandifer's site - a genuine digital treasure. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:13 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Headend cars While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across this: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm Enjoy! Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C438F3.AC94AE50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
Steve = Sandifer's site -=20 a genuine digital treasure.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent:=20 Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:13 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Headend=20 cars

While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across = this:  =20

http://www= .trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm

Enjoy!

Evan = Leisey
RCT&HS=20 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ=20 2003
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C438F3.AC94AE50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:42:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Turntable and roundhouse questions Question 2: It is dependent on how many degree between stalls (radial tracks) as to how far back the roundhouse sat. The greater the number of tracks, the further back the front wall was located to allow for the door framing between adjacent tracks. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084509740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Question 2: It is dependent on how many degree between sta= lls (radial tracks) as to how far back the roundhouse sat. The greater= the number of tracks, the further back the front wall was located to allow=20= for the door framing between adjacent tracks.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1084509740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] Name the Painting Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:46:16 -0400 John, That's a beautiful painting. My name submission is "THE GATHERING" -- seems like they've all = gathered together at the same time from afar and filled all the tracks. Chuck Friedlein ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RamblingReck=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:29 PM Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting Guys, At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did = for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound = trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The = Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The = Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 = minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of = 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for = late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard = tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. = Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on = research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never = came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my = website. =20 http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name = that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and = nonappealable. John Ryan ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C43CA3.D13BA7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

John,

That's a beautiful painting.

My name submission is "THE GATHERING" -- seems = like they've=20 all gathered together at the same time from afar and filled all = the=20 tracks.

Chuck Friedlein

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RamblingReck

To: PRR-Talk

Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 = 11:29=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Name the = Painting

Guys,

At the Cincy convention, I picked up a = painting=20 that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound = Philly=20 local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and = #149 The=20 Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and = a=20 sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late = because=20 it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver = Meteor. =20 The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to = Wilmington. I=20 often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, = and I=20 can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it = instead of=20 the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the=20 painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the = trains,=20 time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the=20 painting. You can see the painting at my website. =

http://southe= rndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm

Pet=20 Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that = we=20 select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and=20 nonappealable.

John Ryan

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C43CA3.D13BA7A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track scales Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:51:04 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Norm, If you weigh each truck of an uncoupled freight car separately and add the total, you will get the weight of the car. Many scales could not weigh cars over 40 feet in length, so each truck was weighed on cars over 40 feet long. Of course, with all the extra moves, plus the addition, this was just a mite time consuming. :<) Can't answer your inquiry about Margie Yard. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: [PRR] Track scales > A couple of questions: > 1. How long a car could the scale at Margie yard in Philadelpia handle? > 2. How were cars longer than the scale weighed or were they all designed with 86' cars in mind? > Thank you, Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 09:29:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeler From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, May 21, 2004, at 09:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Has there been any determination made how long the back issues will > remain available? If they will be eliminated at some point could we > have some notice so we can start printing them out? Thanks, Norm Bell This, and server space issues, were alluded to at the annual meeting. However, prez Al Buchan has since told me there are no space issues, so I would expect them to remain indefinitely. (I had offered adjunct space for archives, under the prrths.com domain name, but was told it wasn't needed. I'd certainly be willing to maintain a mirror site for the PDF versions.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:14:38 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:40:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal References: In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Gents, > > Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, > what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking > at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted > out and others didn't. photo evidence - GLCA 250391 circa 1942 Other war slogans: H31B 220977 "Buy War bonds" circa 1947 (Keystone Dec 1983, p26) H31B 221265 "Buy War bonds" circa 12/46 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open Hoppr Cars) H31B 221011 "Buy War bonds" circa 5/47 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open Hoppr Cars) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:34:24 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/26/2004 8:33:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > I've discovered an area in north Harrisburg that, according to the > CT1000E, 1945 edition, had four tracks dedicated to "U.S. Government > Ground Storage". This was in the Lucknow area, just east of the > Rockville Bridge. > > For reference, the CT1000 entries for the area included: > > Cattle Car Disinfecting Siding > M. W. Storehouse > Lucknow Scrap Dock > U.S. Government Ground Storage Nos. 1, 2, 3 & 4 > > Would this likely have been four storage tracks where cars sat for > later use? > > Or four sidings in an area where stuff was offloaded for storage on the > ground? > > Makes a big difference in the size of the facility and the scope of > operations. Jerry, I am going to take a GUESS at this and say they are storage tracks for shippments out of the Naval Depot at Camp Hill or there abouts. Check the CT1000 for actual tracks at the Naval Depot. Then for cars check the ORER for USNX and DOD listings for 1953. This would also be a convenitent place to store cars for shippments in and out of Fort Letterkenny (armour storage center). If the cars were to be stored on PRR tracks, the Gov't would be charged storage fees. So having Gov't owned storage tracks located near Enola and the DOD sites would make sense. But then this is the gov't we are taking about. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:46:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] JMRI interface From: Gene Nowlan From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:29:37 -0400 John, Ken, Group. About a year ago I had the same experience although I didn't get to meet = Lee. When I was there the two guys at the hobby shop went out of there = way to find me a part I was looking for. It was an old Penn Line model = and they found one for me. =20 SamV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MLiebeskin@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 7:54 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Ken, Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a = rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in = Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the = same experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc. The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day = although I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding. I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for = visit. John Liebeskind ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C443C4.BF151F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
John, Ken, Group.

About a year ago I had the same experience although I didn't get to = meet=20 Lee. When I was there the two guys at the hobby shop went out of there = way to=20 find me a part I was looking for. It was an old Penn Line model and they = found=20 one for me.

SamV

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MLiebeskin@aol.com

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 = 7:54=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk = Digest -=20 05/27/04, Bowser

Ken,

Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I = took a=20 rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in=20 Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly = the same=20 experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc.

The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day = although=20 I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding.

I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time = for=20 visit.

John Liebeskind
------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C443C4.BF151F20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PA and Bowser N8 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:26:10 -0500 To: k4sb@niia.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 26, 2004, at 11:15 PM, k4sb@niia.net wrote: > Then we met Lee. We talked about the N8. You do know the kit was > done as an =93as built when new=94 model? It has the correct trucks = and > coupler. Adding the cushioned draft gear and other trucks are what > modeling is all about. The railings and crash posts are a concession > to cost. In my opinion if a mold was created to represent the C > channels was made the cost for the car would exceed 60.00. He really > did the correct design. I will grant you that the N8 is a HUGE improvement over previous Bowser=20= offerings. However, since all N8s had cushioned draft gear there is=20 really no excuse for not including it on the model. It would make no=20 difference in the cost and it is such an obvious feature that its=20 omission seems to be another case of Bowser not really caring to "get=20 it right". As for the crash posts - that's more of design than cost=20 issue. It could be done, but I'm betting that Mr. English didn't want=20= to add more complexity to the kit. If cost really is an issue, either=20= Mr. English is paying too much for his tooling, or more likely, his=20 production is simply not enough to justify the tooling and the modeler=20= is paying a subsidy to see a desired prototype. > Now everyone just buy a dozen so new PRR > cars can be tooled up. I don't know...I want to pat Bowser on the back for the N8, but I also=20= want Lee to understand that the N8 is far from a state of the art kit=20 and as such, its cost is out of line with the marketplace. =20 Fortunately, the N8 is out of my period so I'm in the clear. I'm=20 saving my pennies for the styrene I1, B60B and... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Convention models display Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:31:40 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just wondering what models folks will be bringing to put on display at the convention? I can't bring much due to all the travelling etc., but assuming that immigration and baggage handlers don't wreck my stuff like last time I hope to have: All HO scale: K3 4-6-2 ( modified Westside / Sunset ), H9 ( mod. Sunset ), two Alco FA1s ( the Greg Martin conversion ) and an A5 with P87 wheelsets. What else will we see? Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Convention models display Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:31:40 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just wondering what models folks will be bringing to put on display at the convention? I can't bring much due to all the travelling etc., but assuming that immigration and baggage handlers don't wreck my stuff like last time I hope to have: All HO scale: K3 4-6-2 ( modified Westside / Sunset ), H9 ( mod. Sunset ), two Alco FA1s ( the Greg Martin conversion ) and an A5 with P87 wheelsets. What else will we see? Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: billlane@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] A little correction Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:56:48 +0000 From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/01/04 Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:36:10 -0400 <<< Subject:=20 From: > Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 01:15:52 +0000 We went on a tour of a railroad museum just across the river in = Covington Ky. there are lots of PRR pieces including the Mountain View = Obs..... http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_2004.jpg Thanks Bill >>> Bill; That observation car is possibly a 1938 PRR "Narrows" series car....but = I'ts not a 1949 "View" series.... Have fun! Brian Butcher ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C42F57.5ACDBF30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

<<<

Subject:
From: <billlane@comcast.net>
Date= : Sat, 01=20 May 2004 01:15:52 +0000

We went on a tour of a railroad museum = just=20 across the river in Covington Ky. there are lots of PRR pieces including = the=20 Mountain View Obs.....

http://myweb= pages.comcast.net/billlane/PRR_2004.jpg

Thanks
Bill

>>>

Bill;

That observation car is possibly a 1938 PRR "Narrows" series = car....but=20 I'ts not a 1949 "View" series....

Have fun!

Brian Butcher
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C42F57.5ACDBF30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Butcher" Subject: [PRR] Metropolitan View Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:41:28 -0400 <<<< Subject: A little correction From: > Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:56:48 +0000 Hi All, It turns out that I was a little off in my last post. I thought the obs = was Mountian View, but it is the Metropolitan View. >>>> OK...I'll buy that! Anything but Mountain View! Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C42F58.1828EFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

<<<<

Subject: A little correction
From: <billlane@comcast.net>
Date= : Sat, 01=20 May 2004 02:56:48 +0000

Hi All,

It turns out that I was a = little=20 off in my last post. I thought the obs was Mountian View, but it is the=20 Metropolitan View.

>>>>

OK...I'll buy that!

Anything but Mountain View!

Brian

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C42F58.1828EFA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cincinatti Convention X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Anyone who is able to attend. Please post photo's of events, tours, etc.. I am unable to attend because of job. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 15:13:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cincinatti Convention X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Anyone who is able to attend. Please post photo's of events, tours, etc.. I am unable to attend because of job. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Day" Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:31:15 -0400 List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does anybody = market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and numbers = for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also = need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Day" Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:31:15 -0400 List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does anybody = market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and numbers = for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also = need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C42FBB.407425C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was to use alcohol from the drugstore that is 90% alcohol. When I asked for some. The Pharmacist had about 4 different varieties to choose from. Isopropyl, rubbing, methyl, ethol, denatured, butyl, etc. He went on to say what each one was used for and so I was so overwhelmed with information. I had no idea which type was what I needed. Could someone please tell me which alcohol type I need ? Thank You, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:45:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was to use alcohol from the drugstore that is 90% alcohol. When I asked for some. The Pharmacist had about 4 different varieties to choose from. Isopropyl, rubbing, methyl, ethol, denatured, butyl, etc. He went on to say what each one was used for and so I was so overwhelmed with information. I had no idea which type was what I needed. Could someone please tell me which alcohol type I need ? Thank You, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:02:09 -0400 Doug, You don't say what scale you are working in, but I made the horn bracket = for my N scale RS3 from a pience of Plastruct 3/32" channel filed to = shape. Did not bother with the vertical headlight change. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Day=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does = anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and = numbers for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_013C_01C42FC7.F3CE56C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Doug,

You don't say what scale you are working in, but I = made the=20 horn bracket for my N scale RS3 from a pience of Plastruct 3/32" channel = filed=20 to shape. Did not bother with the vertical headlight = change.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas=20 Day
To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 = 8:31=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn = bracketand dual=20 vertical headlights.

List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. = Also need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical = headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug =
------=_NextPart_000_013C_01C42FC7.F3CE56C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kent Miller" Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 From: "Kent Miller" Subject: [PRR] Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 13:28:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/02/04 If you are not stuck on using alcohol why not use Formula 409; it has done a super job on stuff I have stripped if I leave it immersed for 3-4 days. Hope this helps. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1083518933 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" If you are not stuck on using alcohol why not use Formula 409; it has don= e a super job on stuff I have stripped if I leave it immersed for 3-4 days.=20= Hope this helps. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1083518933-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 19:34:55 +0000 From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Model Power N6b Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:01:57 -0400 Can anyone tell me if the Model Power caboose that resembles the N6b is = still available? Or are they primarily swap meet type finds? =20 I'd like to try my hand at modifying them into credible models. Kris ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4305E.CBB1C220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Can anyone tell me if the Model Power = caboose that=20 resembles the N6b is still available? Or are they primarily swap = meet type=20 finds?

I'd like to try my hand at = modifying them into=20 credible models.

Kris
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C4305E.CBB1C220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Too bad, its over.. Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:18:27 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am just back from the Ohio excursion. Yesterday was very busy with the hit and run trip up to Columbus for the S Spree from the PRR convention. Dan and I would like to thank everyone who came over to see our X29 pilot model. The response was very positive. It made the 4 + hours on the road worthwhile. I got back just in time to find out that the vendor room was all but packed up. Luckily a friend took care of packing up my table. Then it was over to the Cincinnati station for the banquet. Having dinner in the main room was extremely impressive! I mentioned to a few of those who were part of the presentation how I thought it would be awesome and a rare experience to speak on the P A system in that room. It made everything you said sound like you were announcing the arrival of a train. I would have LOVED to try that! Seeing the downtown Cincinnati model again was as impressive as the first time. I may have mentioned (a few hundred times) that is was S Scale! Congrats to Chuck Blardone for his well-deserved award for the total dedication he has provided us as the Keystone editor for the past 20 years. He is truly a diamond in a very large pile of coal...... I would easily estimate this to be in the top 2 PRR conventions I ever have been to. I have missed only 1 since 1989. A good friend usually has something negative to say about the convention by the time we are at the banquet, at which I respond that he should volunteer his time to make next year's convention better. However, he did not have anything negative to say about this year. I am ready willing and hopefully able to go back to the Cincinnati area for another PRR convention at the earliest possible scheduling of the event. Finally, I do not feel that the attendance suffered as I thought it would because it was the farthest west it was ever been. My only regret that I was so busy I did not make it into see the model contest room. I will trade a High Rez CD of all the photos I took to someone who shot a majority of the models in the model room. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:14:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <050220041934.2870.40954D5F000594E300000B362160280748FF929097D1@att.net> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I apologize for my egregious indiscretion! As far as I can tell, the only real difference between the B60 and the B60B is the roof style. At any rate, here is a link to a tracing of the side/end elevation of the B60. http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=b60.gif&sel=bagg&sz=sm &fr= Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: b.hom@att.net [mailto:b.hom@att.net] Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:35 PM To: Christopher Baker Cc: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question One more time: THIS IS NOT A CLASS B60 BAGGAGE/EXPRESS CAR. THIS IS A CLASS B60B BAGGAGE EXPRESS. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO, AND THE B60B IS FAR MORE COMMON. How many more times do we have to go through this before you people get this right? Ben Hom Chris Baker wrote: Here's a link to the B60 that is part of the collection housed at the Pa. State Railroad Museum. B60's were in use from roughly 1910 - 1971. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-bag-9358.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:57:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Power N6b Yes, I would look at shows before looking at your hobby shop.Check Ebay they seem to always have them. --part1_82.adbad1c.2dc6e4ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Yes, I would look at shows before l= ooking at your hobby shop.Check Ebay they seem to always have them. <= /HTML> --part1_82.adbad1c.2dc6e4ef_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 19:40:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris >From end to end. the B60b has 4 panels, a door, 3 panels, a door, and then 4 panels. The B60 has 3 panels, a door, 2 panels, a door, and then 3 panels. Also, the B60 had windows which were later plated over. Sometimes you can see evidence of where the window was plated over, and sometimes the entire panel was replaced. There are probably many other differences, but I find these some of the most obvious spotting features. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- ...As far as I can tell, the only real difference between the B60 and the B60B is the roof style... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 20:55:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Never noticed that, Andy. In addition, the PRR B60b stands out from (I believe) almost every baggage car in railroading with a 5 inch deeper or lower side. You can almost pick them out of a train in a picture in a fog. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" > Chris > > From end to end. the B60b has 4 panels, a door, 3 panels, a door, and then 4 > panels. > > The B60 has 3 panels, a door, 2 panels, a door, and then 3 panels. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the List: Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the List: Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ALGUCKES@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 23:07:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Glen Loch, PA station Can anyone supply a reference or source for a picture of this station? Al Guckes --part1_103.449fd41b.2dc7115b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Can anyone supply a reference or source= for a picture of this station?

Al Guckes --part1_103.449fd41b.2dc7115b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:38:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for the annual meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this meeting, from the selection of the facilities to the programming... excellent! The hotel offered free wireless networking, which was a major plus for several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen porting a laptop around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, to reach manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! The station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the presentation room at the station afterwards was excellent. I know there were some members who could not make it this year due to job and family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised their hands when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not. Shame on you!!! The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and was shooting for 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic success and obviously opened the door for future Lines West meetings! (Although my personal opinion is that it should only be considered in 5+ year intervals.) This year I recognized more names than I had ever noticed before from the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new faces as well as re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK and the "longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in Australia. Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in Warsaw, Ind. I regret seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many may have overlooked this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated a whole new way of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an entire year's worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of data, including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the loco numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he charted the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener. Ken Douglas and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their excellent presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn & Teller at times! Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts and taking pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you thinking? I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now have original paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan Red. There was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself into a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the most interested in working with us and that good things are coming. Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to honor that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be working with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred) indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It was suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum was not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N scale? I'll have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run and did not take the time to do it at the convention as originally planned. Finally, many thanks to all who attended and brought your business my way. I really appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:38:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for the annual meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this meeting, from the selection of the facilities to the programming... excellent! The hotel offered free wireless networking, which was a major plus for several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen porting a laptop around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, to reach manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! The station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the presentation room at the station afterwards was excellent. I know there were some members who could not make it this year due to job and family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised their hands when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not. Shame on you!!! The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and was shooting for 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic success and obviously opened the door for future Lines West meetings! (Although my personal opinion is that it should only be considered in 5+ year intervals.) This year I recognized more names than I had ever noticed before from the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new faces as well as re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK and the "longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in Australia. Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in Warsaw, Ind. I regret seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many may have overlooked this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated a whole new way of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an entire year's worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of data, including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the loco numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he charted the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener. Ken Douglas and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their excellent presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn & Teller at times! Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts and taking pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you thinking? I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now have original paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan Red. There was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself into a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the most interested in working with us and that good things are coming. Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to honor that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be working with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred) indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It was suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum was not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N scale? I'll have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run and did not take the time to do it at the convention as originally planned. Finally, many thanks to all who attended and brought your business my way. I really appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:03:52 -0500 Jerry: Thank you for your post and kind words about my presentation. I hope to = get as many as 2 articles submitted to the Keystone within the year. For = now, I will be taking a break and enjoy running my layout before I start = working on the research again.=20 This was my first PRRT&HS Convention and all I can say is WOW! It was = great to meet allot people from the PRRT&HS and from PRR-Talk. Great to = put names with faces! I am still AWESTRUCK from my experiences at = Cincinnati Union Station. I have never been there before and was floored = by this architectural GEM. From the main concourse to Tower A to the = S-scale models of Cincinnati.........WOW, WOW, WOW!!! While I don't model N-scale, you mentioned earlier that there was going = to be an announcement for a new product in N-scale at the convention = this year involve something from the late '40's and early '50's. Was it = announced? I have a sneaking suspicion on what it may be (hint: 100 = feet)=20 Ted =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Britton=20 To: PRR-Talk LIST=20 Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for the annual=20 meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this meeting,=20 from the selection of the facilities to the programming... excellent! The hotel offered free wireless networking, which was a major plus for = several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen porting a laptop=20 around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, to reach=20 manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! The = station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the=20 presentation room at the station afterwards was excellent. I know there were some members who could not make it this year due to=20 job and family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised=20 their hands when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not.=20 Shame on you!!! The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and=20 was shooting for 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic=20 success and obviously opened the door for future Lines West meetings!=20 (Although my personal opinion is that it should only be considered in=20 5+ year intervals.) This year I recognized more names than I had ever noticed before from=20 the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new faces as well as=20 re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK and the=20 "longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in Australia. Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in Warsaw, Ind. I regret = seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many may have overlooked=20 this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated a whole new = way=20 of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an entire year's = worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of data,=20 including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the loco=20 numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he = charted=20 the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener. Ken Douglas and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their=20 excellent presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn &=20 Teller at times! Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts and taking=20 pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you thinking?=20 I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now have original=20 paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan Red. There was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling=20 Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself = into=20 a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the = most=20 interested in working with us and that good things are coming.=20 Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to = honor=20 that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be working=20 with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred)=20 indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It was=20 suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless=20 herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum was=20 not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N scale? I'll have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run=20 and did not take the time to do it at the convention as originally=20 planned. Finally, many thanks to all who attended and brought your business my=20 way. I really appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C430ED.8E7F3420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Jerry:

Thank you for your post and kind words about my presentation. I = hope to get=20 as many as 2 articles submitted to the Keystone within the year. For = now, I will=20 be taking a break and enjoy running my layout before I start working on = the=20 research again.

This was my first PRRT&HS Convention and all I can say is WOW! = It was=20 great to meet allot people from the PRRT&HS and from PRR-Talk. Great = to put=20 names with faces! I am still AWESTRUCK from my experiences at Cincinnati = Union=20 Station. I have never been there before and was floored by this = architectural=20 GEM. From the main concourse to Tower A to the S-scale models of=20 Cincinnati.........WOW, WOW, WOW!!!

While I don't model N-scale, you mentioned earlier that = there was=20 going to be an announcement for a new product in N-scale at=20 the convention this year involve something from the late '40's and = early=20 '50's. Was it announced? I have a sneaking suspicion on what it may = be=20 (hint: 100 feet)

Ted

----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Britton

To: PRR-Talk LIST

Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 7:38 = AM

Subject: [PRR] Annual Meeting=20 Comments

Just returned from a five day stint to Cincinnati for = the=20 annual
meeting. The host committee did a phenomenal job with this = meeting,=20
from the selection of the facilities to the programming...=20 excellent!

The hotel offered free wireless networking, which = was a=20 major plus for
several of us. Derrick Brashear was frequently seen = porting=20 a laptop
around. I used mine from the vendors room, for instance, = to reach=20
manufacturer web sites. There were no air conditioning concerns!!! = The=20
station rotunda for the dinner was an excellent setting and the=20
presentation room at the station afterwards was = excellent.

I know=20 there were some members who could not make it this year due to
job = and=20 family challenges. But there were literally dozens who raised =
their hands=20 when asked if they would go to Cincinnati... and did not.
Shame on = you!!!=20 The planning committee expected a smaller turnout and
was shooting = for=20 225. The final count was 338!!!! It was a dramatic
success and = obviously=20 opened the door for future Lines West meetings!
(Although my = personal=20 opinion is that it should only be considered in
5+ year=20 intervals.)

This year I recognized more names than I had ever = noticed=20 before from
the PRR-talk list. It was great to see so many new = faces as=20 well as
re-greet the familiar ones. John Wright was in from the UK = and the=20
"longest" award goes to a member from "Down Under" in=20 Australia.

Ted Andrews gave a session on 1965 operations in = Warsaw,=20 Ind. I regret
seeing only the last 10 minutes of it. While many = may have=20 overlooked
this session due to its era or locale, Ted demonstrated = a whole=20 new way
of analyzing data. He was lucky enough to come across an = entire=20 year's
worth of tower sheets. The tower sheets provide a wealth of = data,=20
including the loco numbers of every passing train. Ted put the = loco=20
numbers into a spreadsheet. For every passing symbol freight he = charted=20
the power typically assigned to it. A real eye-opener.

Ken = Douglas=20 and Peter Weighlin gave a session on diesels and their
excellent=20 presentation style had me thinking I was watching Penn & =
Teller at=20 times!

Bruce Smith was caught several times looking up skirts = and=20 taking
pictures.... of passenger cars, of course... what were you=20 thinking?
I'm sure he'll post his pictures soon. Many of us now = have=20 original
paint samples of Pullman Green and PRR Tuscan = Red.

There=20 was a forum on PRR modeling and members of the PRRT&HS Modeling=20
Committee were panelists. Looks like the Society is wedging itself = into=20
a place to work with manufacturers. It looks like Life Like is the = most=20
interested in working with us and that good things are coming.=20
Obviously the committee is bound by non-disclosure and we need to = honor=20
that. However, one member of the audience (who claims to be = working=20
with BLI and probably spoke more than BLI would have preferred)=20
indicated that I1's and K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. It = was=20
suggested by someone definitely "in the know" (to remain nameless=20
herein) that there is another I1 in progress as well. (The forum = was=20
not under non-disclosure.) Okay, guys, anything in N = scale?

I'll=20 have my photos posted over the next few days. I kept on the run =
and did=20 not take the time to do it at the convention as originally=20
planned.

Finally, many thanks to all who attended and = brought your=20 business my
way. I really appreciate=20 = it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jer= ry=20 Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania= =20 Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - = Home of=20 the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandis= e=20 Service" - Model railroad products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com<= /A>

----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C430ED.8E7F3420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:07:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <423A57E3-9D0B-11D8-802D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: At the annual meeting both John Ryan and John Farqueharson were asking what the "(X)" meant in the report of a passenger consist. This was coming from their recent reading of the Stegmaeir book of 1952 consists. It comes up as well in my "24 Hours at Harrisburg" essay from 1954. My recollection from years ago from PRR-talk was that it meant the car was sealed, locked, etc. Unfortunately, any attempt to search the archives for "X" will likely return and awful lot of false positives!!! Anyway, I did some quick research and very quickly determined (definitively) that it means "as needed". So the car didn't have to be included, but ran only when needed. Unrelated: I did get numerous compliments on the fact that the PRR-talk archive allows very fast searching over 37,000+ messages. Only this week did I learn from several sources that YeeHaa now only searches back over the most recent few hundred posts (one person, a YeeHaa list owner, said 200). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:33:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Brick Sheathing at VIEW Tower From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm guessing about a year ago we were discussing when the brick sheathing was applied over the wood at several towers. My interest was VIEW tower at Duncannon. The best guess was very early 1960's. At the annual meeting there was a vendor selling Conrail-covered files -- some 3" thick -- containing the histories of various towers...full of all sorts of info. For instance, in the MO package I purchased, I can tell you when the toilet facilities were upgraded and at what cost! Yes, nauseating detail! Anyway, I picked up a package on VIEW as well. I haven't read through it, but I did spot a letter authorizing the brick sheathing over the wood at VIEW in 1957. That's a bit earlier than we expected. I'll report back if I find an actual "done" date. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:51:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 11:01:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jerry Britton wrote: > >> Unrelated: I did get numerous compliments on the fact that the >> PRR-talk >> archive allows very fast searching over 37,000+ messages. Only this >> week did I learn from several sources that YeeHaa now only searches >> back over the most recent few hundred posts (one person, a YeeHaa list >> owner, said 200). > > It's a sliding window of 200 posts; You can hit "next" and "previous" > to > move the window; It's just annoying, not impossible. That makes more sense. I found it hard to believe otherwise. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:17:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "X" in Passenger Consist Books From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 10:01 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Monday, May 3, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > >> On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jerry Britton wrote: >> >>> Unrelated: I did get numerous compliments on the fact that the >>> PRR-talk >>> archive allows very fast searching over 37,000+ messages. Only this >>> week did I learn from several sources that YeeHaa now only searches >>> back over the most recent few hundred posts (one person, a YeeHaa >>> list >>> owner, said 200). >> >> It's a sliding window of 200 posts; You can hit "next" and "previous" >> to >> move the window; It's just annoying, not impossible. > > That makes more sense. I found it hard to believe otherwise. Thanks. It sure does take a LONG time to search 30,000 messages 200 at a time! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] H. S. Kerbaugh, H. K. Porter, PRR projects (long) From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 10:46 PM, robert netzlof wrote: > What may be more interesting were the destinations and dates. In > several cases I know from other sources that PRR was doing major work > at the places noted and around the dates given. Others I just don't > know. Here's the list: > Chickies....... 1906 Nov 2 > McCalls Ferry.. 1906 Nov 2 These locomotives were most likely being used for the construction of the Atglen and Susquehanna (A&S) and some line improvements on the Columbia and Port Deposit necessitated by the building of the A&S. In fact the locos for Chickies may have been used to build the Shocks Mills bridge and approaches. Photos of some of them are in Fred Abendschein's article on the A&S in the Keystone. IIRC, many were abandoned when the work was completed. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 10:41:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b Question From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 06:24 PM, Christopher Baker wrote: > Here's a link to the B60 that is part of the collection housed at the > Pa. > State Railroad Museum. B60's were in use from roughly 1910 - 1971. > > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-bag-9358.jpg Since we have covered the B60 vs B60B issue already , then I will just point out that the car in the photo is equipped for messenger service (i.e. carrying a messenger) as denoted by the star on the side, and the vents in the roof. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:09:02 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b Question Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 13:28:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO GP7's Coming From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <5CF324DC-9D27-11D8-802D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PSA... Atlas has announced another run of HO scale GP7's, with two Pennsy numbers, due in October. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GP7's Coming Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:22:33 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GP7's Coming Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 17:52:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - thank you X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to all who answered my question about stripping paint on Proto 2000 body shells! Your assistance is greatly appreciated. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] S Scale N6 Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 19:21:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I heard that there was an awesome S Scale N6 in the PRR convention contest room. Unfortunately I did not make it to see the models. Hopefully the member who built it is either a member here or someone knows who he is. I would like to contact him about including a photo of the model in a magazine article for an S Scale publication. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production of the REA version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 21:42:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Atlas HO GP7 Atlas has just announced another release of the "GEEP 7" http://www.atlasrr.com/HOLoco/hogp72.htm Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1083634976 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Atlas has just announced another release of the "GEEP 7"
http://www.atlasrr= .com/HOLoco/hogp72.htm

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487=
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003
-------------------------------1083634976-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:32:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/03/04 In a message dated 5/3/04 1:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Questions -- Lines West help needed > From: "Dan Cupper" > Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400 > > Greetings to Jerry and the List: > > Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in > Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video > in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam > engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their > trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, > crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line > and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th > St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? > > Dan Cupper > Harrisburg, Pa. > Dan, My memory suggests passenger power was serviced fairly close (16th Street enginehouse). However (as you know) my memories only go back into diesel days. If so, this was in the shadow of the St. Charles Airline bridge, at the south end of 12th Street coach yards. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_116.321bf8d8.2dc8d934_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 5/3/04 1:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:<= BR>

Subject: Questions -- Lines Wes= t help needed
From: "Dan Cupper" <cupper@att.net>
Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:58:49 -0400

Greetings to Jerry and the List:

Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in
Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam
engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their
trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge,
crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line=20=
and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th
St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct?

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

Dan,

My memory suggests passenger power was serviced fairly close (16th Street en= ginehouse). However (as you know) my memories only go back into diesel= days. If so, this was in the shadow of the St. Charles Airline bridge= , at the south end of 12th Street coach yards.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_116.321bf8d8.2dc8d934_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:37:07 -0400 I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Juniata Terminal questions
I'm looking for some of the history of = Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has = my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell = me...

*When was this structure built
*What was the original name
*What was the original purpose
*How was the location switched = out
*Track plan available?
*What is the address of this = location

I would find any history related to = this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to = my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a = tour I would like to attend as well

Thanks

Kenny

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:37:07 -0400 I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Juniata Terminal questions
I'm looking for some of the history of = Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has = my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell = me...

*When was this structure built
*What was the original name
*What was the original purpose
*How was the location switched = out
*Track plan available?
*What is the address of this = location

I would find any history related to = this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to = my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a = tour I would like to attend as well

Thanks

Kenny

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C431BB.5E467E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The MP229's report what locos are assigned to what divisions. The listings include the road number, class, and a number signifying the foreman in charge of maintenance of the loco. The front of the MP229 has a list of all of those foreman numbers and cross references them to the actual names of the foremen. Question is, is there some place that cross references those foremen with the actual location? For instance, foremen codes starting with 0, 1, and 2 are in the Eastern Region. If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, which I suspect is Enola. While a cross reference for the entire system would be nice, if anyone knows all of the codes for Harrisburg and/or Enola, I'd love to hear from you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:25:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The MP229's report what locos are assigned to what divisions. The listings include the road number, class, and a number signifying the foreman in charge of maintenance of the loco. The front of the MP229 has a list of all of those foreman numbers and cross references them to the actual names of the foremen. Question is, is there some place that cross references those foremen with the actual location? For instance, foremen codes starting with 0, 1, and 2 are in the Eastern Region. If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, which I suspect is Enola. While a cross reference for the entire system would be nice, if anyone knows all of the codes for Harrisburg and/or Enola, I'd love to hear from you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:37:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 13:31:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PR freight schedules From: Frederick Ripley X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Subject: [PRR] Updated N.E. Proto Meet info. -- June 4-5 Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 14:31:06 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD00E2@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Who designed the PRR Keystone logo??? Thread-Index: AcQphEemlbiaItgoRDK2n0JKyPZRUwIgYJWQ From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 May 2004 18:31:07.0781 (UTC) FILETIME=[F7431350:01C43205] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Northeast/New England=09 Prototype Modelers Meet=09 June 4-5, 2004 =20 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. each day =09 Canton Community Center =09 40 Dyer Avenue, Collinsville, CT=09 Meet cost: $20 in advance, $25 at door For more information, contact=20 Dave Owens at dowens@courant.com=20 or 203-757-8663 Please remember that the heart of the meet is the model dislay. Bring = your models, finished and unfinished, to display in the model room. = There's no judging. The goal is to share information and techniques. We'll also have some dealers on Saturday. Also, as a bonus to people arriving early, Bill Schneider of Branchline = Trains will open the Branchline factory for tours on Thursday evening. = Email or call me for details. Scheduled programs include: Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey. Learn Mike's = techniques, and then employ them in a hands-on clinic. Bring a model and = if possible a prototype photo of it. Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau. Roger's scratchbuilt Schnable = car was a big hit last year. This year he's working on a dockside = container crane and will offer a hands-on clinic. Bring tools. Prototype intermodal operations with Ramon C. Rhodes. Ramon will show = how the prototype railroads do it, and how you can do it on your model = railroad. Modeling catenary with Rick Abramson. Rick is a well-known New Haven = modeler whose catenary layout is scheduled to be featured in the August = Model Railroader. The milk market for the PRR, RDG and CNJ with John Greene. John is the = owner of Bethlehem Car Works. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett. George is the owner of Sheepscot = Scale Models, producer of fine vehicle, structure and maritime kits. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman. You may know Victor as a = first-class modeler and author whose work has graced several magazines. Resin casting with Ben Brown. Ben will reprise his popular clinic from = last year. Cool things to model with Den Lippert. Den will present interesting = things he's spotted on his railfanning journeys. Modeling a MEC/Guilford U18B with Mike Rose. Mike recently completed one = of these GE units and will show you how to build one. The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick. The title says it all.=20 New England milk trains with Don Valentine of New England Rail Service. = Don will also lead a workshop on kitbashing Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers and = other cars. Bring a car to work on! Pullman Cars with Al Hoffman. Al will talk about the cars that each = railroad operated when the feds broke up the Pullman Co.=20 Also featuring Tom Nanos, Bob LaMay, Pete McLachlan, Jeff Hanke, Jim = Tylick, Dave Geisler, Al Westerfield, Neil Gage and J.P. Barger. Northeast/New England=09 Prototype Modelers Meet=09 June 4-5, 2004 =20 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. each day =09 Canton Community Center =09 40 Dyer Avenue, Collinsville, CT=09 Meet cost: $20 in advance, $25 at door For more information, contact=20 Dave Owens at dowens@courant.com=20 or 203-757-8663 Please remember that the heart of the meet is the model dislay. Bring = your models, finished and unfinished, to display in the model room. = There's no judging. The goal is to share information and techniques. We'll also have some dealers on Saturday. Also, as a bonus to people arriving early, Bill Schneider of Branchline = Trains will open the Branchline factory for tours on Thursday evening. = Email or call me for details. Scheduled programs include: Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey. Learn Mike's = techniques, and then employ them in a hands-on clinic. Bring a model and = if possible a prototype photo of it. Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau. Roger's scratchbuilt Schnable = car was a big hit last year. This year he's working on a dockside = container crane and will offer a hands-on clinic. Bring tools. Prototype intermodal operations with Ramon C. Rhodes. Ramon will show = how the prototype railroads do it, and how you can do it on your model = railroad. Modeling catenary with Rick Abramson. Rick is a well-known New Haven = modeler whose catenary layout is scheduled to be featured in the August = Model Railroader. The milk market for the PRR, RDG and CNJ with John Greene. John is the = owner of Bethlehem Car Works. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett. George is the owner of Sheepscot = Scale Models, producer of fine vehicle, structure and maritime kits. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman. You may know Victor as a = first-class modeler and author whose work has graced several magazines. Resin casting with Ben Brown. Ben will reprise his popular clinic from = last year. Cool things to model with Den Lippert. Den will present interesting = things he's spotted on his railfanning journeys. Modeling a MEC/Guilford U18B with Mike Rose. Mike recently completed one = of these GE units and will show you how to build one. The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick. The title says it all.=20 New England milk trains with Don Valentine of New England Rail Service. = Don will also lead a workshop on kitbashing Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers and = other cars. Bring a car to work on! Pullman Cars with Al Hoffman. Al will talk about the cars that each = railroad operated when the feds broke up the Pullman Co.=20 Also featuring Tom Nanos, Bob LaMay, Pete McLachlan, Jeff Hanke, Jim = Tylick, Dave Geisler, Al Westerfield, Neil Gage and J.P. Barger. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 15:02:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people seem to think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my age, of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey - our eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a convention, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions of that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in a heartbeat! Just one SPF's opinion! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe overgrowth Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:44:52 +0000 Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 16:18:19 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Obs. Louis Sockalexis Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers- Can anyone provide any info on PRR Obs. Louis Sockalexis? I cannot find it listed anywhere in my library. TIA. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 21:40:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/2/04 10:56:03 PM, ajc5150@insightbb.com writes: << Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? >> Dan - Don't know if it helps, but I was just clicking through the cable channels and came to AMC. They are running a movie (several times, it appears) called "Silver Streak." It has been a long time since I watched this but, IIRC, there is a scene at the end where the train is moving through a Chicago yard and, eventually, into the terminal (actually, INTO the terminal, ala Washington, DC). I forget whether it is the Pennsy terminal or the other one but it may be of interest, either way. But, I seem to remember that, when I watched the flick, I thought about the times I rode the Pennsy into Chicago. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] ID this car Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 23:02:18 -0500 Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped. Is this some kind of = coffee-shop lounge car or what? = http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D31916= 17459&rd=3D1 Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4322B.D938FE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has = me=20 stumped. Is this some kind of coffee-shop lounge car or = what? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi= ewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4322B.D938FE30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-Talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 06:42:44 -0400 To: "Bob Zoeller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 5, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped.=A0 Is this some kind = =20 > of coffee-shop lounge car or what?=A0 =20 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?=20 > ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1 If you can ask and supply the road number we can ascertain what it =20 "purports to be". With a number you can do a lookup in the Varnish =20 database on Keystone Crossings. Several of its characteristics -- the roof shape, the porthole window, =20= etc. -- suggest it is one of the 1938-39 diners. It is NOT one of the =20= P70c/P70d cars. Even for a kitchen area, there are usually more windows down the full =20= length of the car. This one does not have that, opening the door that =20= it might have a dorm in one end. Did you check the elevations on Rob's site? I didn't have the time to =20= do so at present. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:10:33 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ken, Juniata terminal Company was formerly the Frankford Terminal Freight House recieving perishable goods and LCL freight. Most likely built in the 1920's due to its construction, with cranes added later. The location was most likely switched by a local crew, track access is from the "0" Conrail Freight track off of Frankford Junction. As far as the original track arrangement, 3 tracks entered the building as they do now. with a forth paralleling the side of the building where the baggage car and N8 sit now. The unoccupied area north of these tracks and the NEC were probably once a yard. I can't give you an exact address but if you mapquest it its near the intersection of Tioga Ave. and the NEC. Bennett would be able to answer some of these questions at a greater length. From what I know, he has working drawings of the building. Best Regards, John "Ken Nesbitt" wrote: I'm looking for some of the history of Juniata Terminal. Being a railroad history buff this location has my curiosity up. Perhaps someone will be kind enough to tell me... *When was this structure built *What was the original name *What was the original purpose *How was the location switched out *Track plan available? *What is the address of this location I would find any history related to this location helpful. I am considering adding a compressed version to my layout. The next time Mr. Levin has this location open for a tour I would like to attend as well Thanks Kenny ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:58:40 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My rural, small post office has a poster on the wall listing what you can ship (baby chix, books, some kinds of paint, etc.) and what you can't ( explosives, guns, big chickens, dogs!). FWIW, anything weighing over a pound in weight actually goes on a FedEx or UPS plane, not a passenger airliner. Jim McDaniel, who has no chickens of any kind on the property, in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 07:55:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] B60b questions From: Frederick Ripley Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:11:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 05:42 AM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > On May 5, 2004, at 12:02 AM, Bob Zoeller wrote: > >> Guys (and gals): this car on eBay has me stumped.=A0 Is this some = kind =20 >> of coffee-shop lounge car or what?=A0 =20 >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/=20 >> eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3D484&item=3D3191617459&rd=3D1 > > If you can ask and supply the road number we can ascertain what it =20 > "purports to be". With a number you can do a lookup in the Varnish =20 > database on Keystone Crossings. > > Several of its characteristics -- the roof shape, the porthole window, = =20 > etc. -- suggest it is one of the 1938-39 diners. It is NOT one of the =20= > P70c/P70d cars. > > Even for a kitchen area, there are usually more windows down the full =20= > length of the car. This one does not have that, opening the door that =20= > it might have a dorm in one end. The model appears to have a vestibule on both ends, opening the door =20 that it might not have been a diner at all, but was rebuilt from =20 some P70 class...It certainly would be helpful to have a view of the =20 other side too... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin =20= Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 09:24:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > With the new B60b's coming out, I have a couple of questions: > > -did these handle checked baggage, as well as express? > > -I believe I read/heard that the version with vents on the roof > carried an > express messenger- is this correct? It didn't have to carry a messenger, but could. It was equipped with vents for air flow, a toilet, and a desk. > > -Any other different uses between the two? (vent vs no vents) I think otherwise they were the same. > What were > the respective nos. on the roster? I have the 1954 roster online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Set the Class = B60b . This will return all B60b's. To find just the vented cars, also set Type = Baggage Express Messenger . To find just the non-vented cars, also set Type = Baggage Express . Again, this is as of 1954. Some of these cars likely did not make it to the mid-1960's, though many (most?) did. > By the mid-60's, which I model, what > would be an appropriate balance between the two? Can't help here. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 10:03:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 09:12:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions From: Frederick Ripley From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] B60b questions Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 10:44:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <81F7D9CE-9E97-11D8-96A2-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The other differences were: - interior, the car also had a safe - exterior (more to the point for modeling), The car was identified by a star above the "Railway Express" legend Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:24 AM To: Frederick Ripley Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B60b questions On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 08:55 AM, Frederick Ripley wrote: > With the new B60b's coming out, I have a couple of questions: > > -did these handle checked baggage, as well as express? > > -I believe I read/heard that the version with vents on the roof > carried an > express messenger- is this correct? It didn't have to carry a messenger, but could. It was equipped with=20 vents for air flow, a toilet, and a desk. > > -Any other different uses between the two? (vent vs no vents) I think otherwise they were the same. > What were > the respective nos. on the roster? I have the 1954 roster online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/varnish/ Set the Class =3D B60b . This will return all B60b's. To find just the vented cars, also set Type =3D Baggage Express = Messenger=20 . To find just the non-vented cars, also set Type =3D Baggage Express . Again, this is as of 1954. Some of these cars likely did not make it to=20 the mid-1960's, though many (most?) did. > By the mid-60's, which I model, what > would be an appropriate balance between the two? Can't help here. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:52:33 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >>>From: k4sb@niia.net >>>Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >>>Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 15:52:33 -00 >From: k4sb@niia.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] More RailFanning in Central PA >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:18:27 -00 >>>From: k4sb@niia.net >>>Subject: RE: [PRR] RailFanning in Central PA >>>Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 03:15:19 -00 Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux From: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yep. US Mail still handles sundry live critters. Baby chicks, other bay fowl (pheasants, etc...) do fine in overnight (express.) Live Lobstah, suitably packaged goes express. Sundry Approved Insects (butterflies, etc, with inspections) also travel by mail... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:38:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In reading the description, that it was custom PRR painted, my interpretation is that car was some other railroad's prototype, that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in error. Of course the missing box would explain things. Obviously not a normal diner, because no windows for diners. Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 23:49:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] ALTO Tower,1964 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings At the PRRT&HS meet in Cincinnati,I picked up some old files on Alto,JD-ConPitt,and Rose interlockings. I just read through some of the files for ALTO Tower and came across some shocking info. In 1964, PRR management had made the decision to tare down ALTO Tower and build a new "fireproof" ALTO Tower directly across the tracks from the old location. The new ALTO would have been a one story Armco metal building. According to the paperwork in this file, the PRR did not want to spend $160.000 to rewire the interlocking and the project was dropped from PRR's 1965 Capital Improvement Program. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 08:10:55 -0400 From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:04:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <532E8AC6-9F66-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR freight car classes? Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, as in GLa vs. Gla GLca vs. Glca ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:15:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, If the brown book you refer to is the NJ Intl. passenger plan book, please see page 66. It was one of 5 rebuilt for Jersey commuter service. No doubt this "captive service" unit was not familiar to many of the listers. Just don't get that sort of thing on Lines West !! For those who do not have the book; cars 1105, 1106,1108, 1109,1110, were the ones converted. The seating was in 2 arrangements: 30 coach / 24 dining & 40 coach / 16 dining. Those modeling the Long Branch operations into NYC would find this a unique piece for the collection. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:10 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car > > Would this car be in a Brown Book? > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:38 PM > To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; jerry@pennsyrr.com > Cc: bobspf@wi.rr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car > > > In reading the description, that it was custom PRR painted, > my interpretation is that car was some other railroad's prototype, > that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in error. > > Of course the missing box would explain things. > > Obviously not a normal diner, because no windows for diners. > > Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:27:06 -0400 From: Fred in Vt. [mailto:pennsy@sover.net] Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car > From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com] > Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car RE: [PRR] ID this car
Not the Brown Book I was talking about but if it = answered the question do I get the credit? There is a book called = The Brown Book of Brass ... It supposedly has pictures of all the = brass that was imported but it may only be locos. Not sure!

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred in Vt. [mailto:pennsy@sover.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:15 AM
To: Chany, Christopher; prr-talk@dsop.com
Cc: Bruce F. Smith; Bob Zoeller
Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car

Chris,
         If = the brown book you refer to is the NJ Intl. passenger plan book,
please see page 66. It was one of 5 rebuilt for = Jersey commuter service. No
doubt this "captive service" unit was not = familiar to many of the listers.
Just don't get that sort of thing on Lines West = !!

         For = those who do not have the book; cars 1105, 1106,1108,
1109,1110, were the ones converted. The seating was = in 2 arrangements: 30
coach / 24 dining & 40 coach / 16 dining. Those = modeling the Long Branch
operations into NYC would find this a unique piece = for the collection.

Fred in Vt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chany, Christopher" = <cpc1@westchestergov.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:10 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car

>
> Would this car be in a Brown Book?
>
> Chris Chany
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Prr1187@aol.com [mailto:Prr1187@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; = jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Cc: bobspf@wi.rr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] ID this car
>
>
> In reading the description, that it was custom = PRR painted,
> my interpretation is that car was some other = railroad's prototype,
> that was custom painted with a PRR scheme in = error.
>
> Of course the missing box would explain = things.
>
> Obviously not a normal diner, because no = windows for diners.
>
> Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974
>
>
>
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> = -----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /FONT>
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4337E.96D12000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:26:28 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Freight Roster Online From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yesterday I cumulated all of the data in the January 1955 ORER (which had 10/1/54 data from the Pennsy) to determine how many cars of each class/subclass were in service. This information is useful for filling out layout rosters if you are modeling the 1950's. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/54_fleet/ . I'm now adding in known models in HO or N scale, based on the class the manufacturer of the model paints on it (even if its wrong, but noting that). I know I am missing some HO models that I have to dig for -- the Rail Works flats that were released and the Branchline box cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <64E69FDC-9F72-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for cement? I kind of doubt it. Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? Need a dozen in N scale, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <64E69FDC-9F72-11D8-9087-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for cement? I kind of doubt it. Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? Need a dozen in N scale, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:32:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:04 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR > freight car classes? > > Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". > > And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, > as in > Jerry, All caps when lettered on the car, including the subclass, which was a smaller sized stencil. I tend toward all caps when writing the classes in text, when I remember. > > GLa vs. Gla > GLca vs. Glca How about GLA and GLCA Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:52:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially the tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate on the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 12:03:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 11:52 AM, William Bigler wrote: > Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially > the > tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate > on > the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. I have about 100 pics to post... layouts and the Cincinnati Union Terminal and Tower A. Unfortunately, the [expletive deleted] grass is growing faster than I can cut it!!! Will probably be this weekend yet until I get to it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 10:52 AM, William Bigler wrote: > Does anyone plan to post photos of the convntion on line, especially > the > tour layouts? I didn't take pictures this year, wanting to concentrate > on > the layouts without the distraction, but that may have been a mistake. Bill, I hope to have a few up tonight I have a bunch from the tours, plus some from the display rooms. BTW, can anyone remind me of a few things about the Museum in Kentucky we visited? I seem to have misplaced my handout! What were the names of the 2 Pullmans right by where we entered? Also, what was the name and contact information for the museum (ie address) Thanx Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 10:16:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Those two Pullmans were: "Jovita" (closest to gate) and "Overdale." Jovita was built 1914 and Overdale built 1928. It's the Railway Museum of Great Cincinnati, P.O. Box 15065, Covington, KY 41015. It was a great meeting, wasn't it?! The presentations were well-done, the Railway Museum was great and the final dinner in the CUT was awesome. I had a great time and thank the Cincinnati group for organizing such a neat event. I'm looking forward to next year in Pa and also hoping to see a meeting in Chicago in the near future..... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR PS After the meeting I did some exploring around southern Ohio and Xenia. I discovered that the South Charleston Heritage Commission group is arranging a charter train trip from South Charleston up to Springfield on the old DT&I track and also to Mechanicsburg and Jeffersonville on May 22. I'd give my eye-teeth to take this trip but can't because I live in Oregon but those of you in the Midwest might want to check it out. (Tel 937-462-7277). > BTW, can anyone remind me of a few things about the Museum in Kentucky > we visited? I seem to have misplaced my handout! What were the names > of the 2 Pullmans right by where we entered? Also, what was the name > and contact information for the museum (ie address) > > Thanx > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:33:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Freight Roster Online In a message dated 5/6/2004 11:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: I know I am missing some HO models that I have to dig for -- the Rail Works flats that were released and the Branchline box cars. Jerry, The Branchline cars as X43b, X43c, X44 all in both CK and SK and the GAEX lease cars. Rich Orr -------------------------------1083868402 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 5/6/2004 11:47:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pe= nnsyrr.com writes:

I know I am missing some HO models that I have= to dig for -- the Rail
Works flats that were released and the Branchlin= e box cars.

Jerry,

The Branchline cars as X43b, X43c, X44 all in both CK and SK and the GA= EX lease cars.

Rich Orr
-------------------------------1083868402-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Setting out sleepers Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:36:20 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Setting out sleepers Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 18:36:20 +0000 From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:38:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes The gray matter isn't up to speed yet. Classes and subclasses are specified in an FRA or AAR (ARA) practice. I have noticed that many roads indiscriminately interchanged upper and lower case lettering for the second letter in the class. The recommended practice was to use caps for the first two letters for the type of car and then lower case after the second letter to specify a subclass. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1083868734 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
The gray matter isn't up to speed yet.   Classes and s= ubclasses are specified in an FRA or AAR (ARA) practice.   I have=20= noticed that many roads indiscriminately interchanged upper and lower c= ase lettering for the second letter in the class. The recommended= practice was to use caps for the first two letters for the type of car= and then lower case after the second letter to specify a subclass.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1083868734-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 15:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 15:01:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation From: Frederick Ripley From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/6/04 3:18:34 PM, fjr@mchsi.com writes: << The "Pennsy Streamliners" book has some good info about the declining years of passenger service, and in several cases makes the judgement that the RR cut or consolidated a trains with pretty good patronage and not bad financial health (the "Red Arrow" for instance). And on the trains that kept running, one can see the deterioration: dropped sleepers, diner/lounges replaced with snack bar coaches, etc. But clearly the road didn't wholly give up, like SP or probably NYC, and of the east-west fleet at least the "Broadway" and "General" (the "Spirit of St. Louis" seems more questionable- anyone have first hand experience from later years?) provided fine service to the end. >> ************************ Fred - I was based in Cleveland for about 6 months before I was promoted to NYC, in about December, 1963. My fiance lived in Philadelphia (we were married while I was based in Cleveland) and I rode on my Pennsy pass almost every weekend to PHL. There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and we'd arrive early in the morning. The deterioration you speak of started, in my mind, about the time I left Cleveland. I took two graduate courses at, then, Western Reserve University and finished the requirements of both before reporting to NYC. My new wife took one graduate course at WRU but had to return to Cleveland to take her final exam. After some analysis, it was evident that it worked better all around if she simply flew United Airlines LGA/CLE/LGA. And, if it was obvious to me that flying was a better alternative, it must have been obvious to a lot of people. I was based at Penn Station in NYC from then to 10/66 when I went to work for American Airlines. In the years I was in Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Cleveland, I went back east frequently, often leaving the office Friday afternoon and catching a westbound train late Sunday afternoon. In those days, Pennsylvania was a dry state and one could not buy a drink on the Pennsy on Sunday on a train in the state of Pennsylvania. Thus, most of us developed the habit, whether we drank or not, of carrying a pint of bourbon to ease the Sunday journey through Pennsylvania. It is a habit that I maintained for many years during my international travel. This liquor issue, however, did not, I believe, harm the Pennsy because passenegr aircraft flying over Pennsylvania on Sundays also had to close the bar. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 16:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers/train consolidation X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/6/04 3:18:34 PM, fjr@mchsi.com writes: << The "Pennsy Streamliners" book has some good info about the declining years of passenger service, and in several cases makes the judgement that the RR cut or consolidated a trains with pretty good patronage and not bad financial health (the "Red Arrow" for instance). And on the trains that kept running, one can see the deterioration: dropped sleepers, diner/lounges replaced with snack bar coaches, etc. But clearly the road didn't wholly give up, like SP or probably NYC, and of the east-west fleet at least the "Broadway" and "General" (the "Spirit of St. Louis" seems more questionable- anyone have first hand experience from later years?) provided fine service to the end. >> ************************ Fred - I was based in Cleveland for about 6 months before I was promoted to NYC, in about December, 1963. My fiance lived in Philadelphia (we were married while I was based in Cleveland) and I rode on my Pennsy pass almost every weekend to PHL. There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and we'd arrive early in the morning. The deterioration you speak of started, in my mind, about the time I left Cleveland. I took two graduate courses at, then, Western Reserve University and finished the requirements of both before reporting to NYC. My new wife took one graduate course at WRU but had to return to Cleveland to take her final exam. After some analysis, it was evident that it worked better all around if she simply flew United Airlines LGA/CLE/LGA. And, if it was obvious to me that flying was a better alternative, it must have been obvious to a lot of people. I was based at Penn Station in NYC from then to 10/66 when I went to work for American Airlines. In the years I was in Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Cleveland, I went back east frequently, often leaving the office Friday afternoon and catching a westbound train late Sunday afternoon. In those days, Pennsylvania was a dry state and one could not buy a drink on the Pennsy on Sunday on a train in the state of Pennsylvania. Thus, most of us developed the habit, whether we drank or not, of carrying a pint of bourbon to ease the Sunday journey through Pennsylvania. It is a habit that I maintained for many years during my international travel. This liquor issue, however, did not, I believe, harm the Pennsy because passenegr aircraft flying over Pennsylvania on Sundays also had to close the bar. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:22:06 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 23:36:21.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[EFD25EF0:01C433C2] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all As you found out in Cincy, I am far from expert. Kind of like "Brunswick Green" being a PRR designation. Kind of like the Tuscan Red switcher (shifter) controversy several years ago. But, having said that. Why don't we all agree to use what seems like a logical solution until proven otherwise? GLa GLca H9 H9s Until someone who can document otherwise, tells us different. And every time someone asks this question again, for the millionth time, the answer should be as stated. And please don't take offense, those of you who ask this question. A lot of questions come up from time to time that have already been asked and answered. And heaven help us if we become like a well known MR magazine that are such snobs that all they can do is say "the answer is in such and such a book, available from our shipping dept.". Searching archives is fun for me, but I'll bet there are many of us on PRR-Talk that don't have that kind of time to search. Praises to Jerry for his site and it's search ability. Better than a lot. Even Google can be tiresome. LOL This keeps in mind that the class is always capitals, and the sub-class is always small case. Consistency. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 PS And for those of you who I met in Cincy that think a "Ferroequinologist" should know everything there is to know about a stam engine: No One Knows Everything! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Photos Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:24:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 May 2004 23:36:22.0734 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0A69EE0:01C433C2] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Unfortunately, Bill, I did the same. I have no pictures to share. Sorry. And for all those that could not attend, you missed a very good convention. Expertly handled by the Cincinnati group. (I was going to write "canaries", but then I thought!) LOL twice Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sdaddio" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 20:43:20 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caps are an engineering standard on drawings (formerly Blueprints) and would be in the format specs within a drafting procedure manual. These manuals may be company specific or industry specific requirements. Possibly the lower cases were used on the "face" of the drawing (where the "views" are. Depending upon where one sees the designation, it may have been done by non-engineering type personnel (financial?). I would be interested in finding an afore mentioned drafting manual, since I do this as a livelihood. Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Smith" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes > > On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 09:04 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Can anyone authoritatively comment on the use of capitals in PRR > > freight car classes? > > > > Specifically, I have seen FM flats as either "FM" or "Fm". > > > > And for hoppers, the GLxx subclasses with the "L" both upper or lower, > > as in > > > Jerry, > > All caps when lettered on the car, including the subclass, which was a > smaller sized stencil. I tend toward all caps when writing the classes > in text, when I remember. > > > > > GLa vs. Gla > > GLca vs. Glca > > How about GLA and GLCA > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:01:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, I was also told by an RPO clerk about bees (sometimes many) accumulating on the outsides of the box of bee shipments in RPO cars. He explained that they were not escapees, rather passers-by that were attracted to the queen being shipped with the colony. They would ride along peaceably, until disturbed by a human. These guys were refereed to fittingly, as hoboes. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicks by mail redux > At one time I kept bees as a hobby; think of having ten thousand or > so faithful pets. Anyway, bees were and probably are regularly > shipped by ordinary mail (first class probably, they can only have > so much food with them, and only in warm weather). You order > them by the pound, by the way. I did get a frantic call from the post > office when they arrived; and a few of the little devils had escaped > and were clinging to the outside of the package. > > This was in Illinois, where Chicago Union Station still has position > light signals (PRR content). > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error. In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express service did receive Ajax power handbrakes." I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car also has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years. Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:43:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations Bill Bigler writes... > > I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people seem to > think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my age, > of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a > convention, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions of > that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in a > heartbeat! > > Just one SPF's opinion! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my own... He uses good common sense! I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a back seat, not generally the case! >From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splendid job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the same thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such a well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? And John Wright if you are out there we will meet next year as well as the rest of you all (Yuze Gize). Thanks, Greg Martin --part1_ea.4dc28c45.2dcc72df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Bill Bigler writes...=

I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh shoul= d maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people se= em to think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by=20= 338, about the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangero= us at my age, of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, b= ut hey -- our eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks.=

So, in my humble opinion, if another Lines West group wants to host a conven= tion, why not, regardless of time between trips west? For conventions=20= of that quality and the fresh information on Lines West, I'd do it again in=20= a heartbeat!

Just one SPF's opinion!

Bill Bigler - 4915

I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my= own... He uses good common sense!

I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a=20= work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a bac= k seat, not generally the case!

>From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as exp= ected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a splend= id job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the= same thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to co= nsider hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus= ???

Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such=20= a well thought out event so we know who to thanks...?

And John Wright if you are out there we will meet next year as well as the r= est of you all (Yuze Gize).

Thanks,

Greg Martin
--part1_ea.4dc28c45.2dcc72df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 08:47:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <03F8E340-A02D-11D8-930E-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning, I've quickly put some photos up on the web from the annual meeting in Cincinnati. There is no "master page" yet, but I'll try to list them in this email. You can get to a listing of the files by going to: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/ My sincere apologies if I make an incorrect attribution or mis-spell a name!!! Also, sorry for the file sizes...dial up folks may struggle! MODEL ROOM: Craig Bossler's one-of-a-kind model of the one-of-a-kind G23 http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/G23.JPG Some of Garrett Rea's models, including his PRRPro F30s http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/GarrettRea1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/GarrettRea2.jpg Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and the GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in MM) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobChapman4.jpg LAYOUTS: Bob MacKenrick's Wawa diorama, complete with GRA and manure load http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick2.jpg Some scenes from Bob's layout http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/BobMacKendrick4.jpg Scene's from Curt LaRue's layout http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/CurtLaRue4.jpg Scene's from Ed Swain's layout - Ed's layout room is so clean, its amazing, as are the display cases of military models in the "crew lounge". Ed had several superdetailed dioramas on the layout. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/EdSwain4.jpg Scenes from Rick Crumrine's Waynesburg and Washington (featured in GMR 2003) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/WandW3.jpg At the Railway Museum of Great Cincinnati,in Covington, KY: Two FGE reefers http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE(58999)1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE(58999)2.jpg and a shorter car (I missed getting the number) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/FGE4.jpg Theatrical Scenery car Juliet http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet2.jpg Interior shots http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet4.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet5.jpg and a complete underbody series http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet6.jpg through http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Juliet13.jpg (substitute Juliet7 etc...) Interior shots of a PRR RPO-Baggage http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO1.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO2.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO3.jpg http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/RPO4.jpg A PULLMAN 12-1 tourist car "Jovita", with 2 x 16 UC brakes, wood window sashes and no A/C. This folder includes a complete underbody series from both sides as well as window, step and truck detail shots. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Jovita/ (this will get you a listing of all the files) A PULLMAN 14 section car "Overdale" (plan 3958A). Detail shots of the windows are included. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/Cincy/Overdale/ In addition, I have complete under body series from the museum's B&O I-12 wagon top hack and from a phase I Pullman built 1943 troop sleeper if anyone is interested. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:15:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D356C165@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 14:06:08.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[71B3D6F0:01C4343C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When I hired out on the PRR in the fall of 1958 it was about a year before the massive reduction and consolidation of passenger trains. Since I had a free annual pass good on everything that ran except the Broadway and the General, and since I was still single, I spent a lot of time over the weekends riding the rails. I am here to tell you that EACH AND EVERY TRAIN in the summer and fall of 1958 was Standing Room Only. I am not exaggerating one bit. Often, in order to get a place to sit I rode through the night in the rear cab of the locomotive. So why, I would ask myself, does/did the PRR have such a penchant to get rid of passenger trains? Also, I might add, the head end traffic on these trains was also enormous. Well, on investigation into the matter, it appeared that the preponderance of the passengers on these trains (which were east-west in nature) were southern blacks who were in the process of migrating from the south to the northern cities and from one northern city to another ostensibly in search of employment. The exact reason for this is not really clear to me, but I believe most of it was due to the rapid mechanization of farming in the south which rendered the sharecroppers surplus. Factories in the north appeared to be hiring at the time, but that situation proved to be only temporary, as the exodus of northern industry had already begun to southern cities as well as Asia. But the real reason that the railroad was losing money on overcrowded passenger trains, I was to find out, was that the railroad had an apparently long standing practice of offering half price tickets to members of clergy and their families. I observed whole coach-loads of "clergy pass holders" offering up transportation to the conductors! They had found a huge loophole in the tariff regulations and were taking advantage of it. To the railroads, it was the old Chinese laundry addage, "No tickee, no washee!" So off came the trains. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:28 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Marty writes: > There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and > a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a > two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place > a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would > couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and > we'd arrive early in the morning. Marty, That's really interesting- seems to be a good example of the sort of consolidation I was speaking of, that preserves service but does so at the expense of added time for layovers and changing trains. The July 1963 PTT shows the "Clevelander", the last remaining Cleveland train, as a separate train only as far as Pittsburgh (arriving EB at 9:25 PM), with a single sleeper picked up by the "General" (leaving at 1:11 AM). Coach passengers had to change cars. A Pittsburgh-Washington sleeper is also listed, but this is a car that is already in the General's consist. That Washington sleeper, by the way, is the remnant of the "Liberty Ltd.", which was discontinued in 1957, with at first a couple of Washington-Chi. sleepers and then just one carried on the General west of Harrisburg. Westbound, the General arrived at Pitts. at 1:21 AM, and a NY-Clev. sleeper and Pitts.-Clev. coaches left at 4:10 AM (5:00 on Sat.). Cleveland service ended entirely in 1964. A few years earlier, the same sort of scenario had played out with Detroit service. In early 1957, there were still two trains each way, the "Red Arrow" and "Detroit Express". By 1958, only the Red Arrow remained, but it still carried several sleepers. Then it was cut back to a connection with the "General" at Crestline, and then discontinued. No doubt patronage was dropping everywhere, but clearly cuts in frequency and convenience, not to mention quality, on "feeder" routes like Cleveland and Detroit accelerated the decline, and made the remaining stubs (Crestline-Detroit, Pittsburgh Cleveland) uneconomical to operate. Best, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:15:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D356C165@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 14:06:08.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[71B3D6F0:01C4343C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When I hired out on the PRR in the fall of 1958 it was about a year before the massive reduction and consolidation of passenger trains. Since I had a free annual pass good on everything that ran except the Broadway and the General, and since I was still single, I spent a lot of time over the weekends riding the rails. I am here to tell you that EACH AND EVERY TRAIN in the summer and fall of 1958 was Standing Room Only. I am not exaggerating one bit. Often, in order to get a place to sit I rode through the night in the rear cab of the locomotive. So why, I would ask myself, does/did the PRR have such a penchant to get rid of passenger trains? Also, I might add, the head end traffic on these trains was also enormous. Well, on investigation into the matter, it appeared that the preponderance of the passengers on these trains (which were east-west in nature) were southern blacks who were in the process of migrating from the south to the northern cities and from one northern city to another ostensibly in search of employment. The exact reason for this is not really clear to me, but I believe most of it was due to the rapid mechanization of farming in the south which rendered the sharecroppers surplus. Factories in the north appeared to be hiring at the time, but that situation proved to be only temporary, as the exodus of northern industry had already begun to southern cities as well as Asia. But the real reason that the railroad was losing money on overcrowded passenger trains, I was to find out, was that the railroad had an apparently long standing practice of offering half price tickets to members of clergy and their families. I observed whole coach-loads of "clergy pass holders" offering up transportation to the conductors! They had found a huge loophole in the tariff regulations and were taking advantage of it. To the railroads, it was the old Chinese laundry addage, "No tickee, no washee!" So off came the trains. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Frederick Ripley Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:28 PM To: LAMAassoc@aol.com; Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Marty writes: > There was a late Sunday afternoon train with at least one sleeper and > a dining/club car that was set off in Pittsburgh. There was about a > two hour lay over in Pittsburgh and I used to go to a spaghetti place > a couple of blocks from the station for a bite. The sleeper would > couple to the Cleveland train (northbound out of Washington ?) and > we'd arrive early in the morning. Marty, That's really interesting- seems to be a good example of the sort of consolidation I was speaking of, that preserves service but does so at the expense of added time for layovers and changing trains. The July 1963 PTT shows the "Clevelander", the last remaining Cleveland train, as a separate train only as far as Pittsburgh (arriving EB at 9:25 PM), with a single sleeper picked up by the "General" (leaving at 1:11 AM). Coach passengers had to change cars. A Pittsburgh-Washington sleeper is also listed, but this is a car that is already in the General's consist. That Washington sleeper, by the way, is the remnant of the "Liberty Ltd.", which was discontinued in 1957, with at first a couple of Washington-Chi. sleepers and then just one carried on the General west of Harrisburg. Westbound, the General arrived at Pitts. at 1:21 AM, and a NY-Clev. sleeper and Pitts.-Clev. coaches left at 4:10 AM (5:00 on Sat.). Cleveland service ended entirely in 1964. A few years earlier, the same sort of scenario had played out with Detroit service. In early 1957, there were still two trains each way, the "Red Arrow" and "Detroit Express". By 1958, only the Red Arrow remained, but it still carried several sleepers. Then it was cut back to a connection with the "General" at Crestline, and then discontinued. No doubt patronage was dropping everywhere, but clearly cuts in frequency and convenience, not to mention quality, on "feeder" routes like Cleveland and Detroit accelerated the decline, and made the remaining stubs (Crestline-Detroit, Pittsburgh Cleveland) uneconomical to operate. Best, Fred R. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to skyrocketing insurance costs... http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to skyrocketing insurance costs... http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:47:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:50:48 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:23:38 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bob Chapman's Class GPA Model (was Photos from Cincinnati) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:29:19 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:46:52 +0000 From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:47:39 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On May 7, 2004, at 9:47 AM, robert netzlof wrote: > --- Bruce Smith wrote: > >> Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and >> the >> GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in >> MM) > > The GPA is quite interesting. Could you post the reference to > Mainline Modeler (month? year?). I searched the model trains magazine database at http://index.mrmag.com/ with "Chapman" and found: Modeling Pennsy's GPa Hoppers Mainline Modeler, March 1996 page 56 by Bob Chapman > I daresay, in view of all the cutting and cementing needed to > rearrange the H21 ribs to match the GPA pattern and the attendant > problem of aligning all those bits, it's fortunate that PRR found it > desirable to install that angle iron on the top chord. The article focused on using Westerfield sides, but Bowser sides could be substituted by disassembling the Bowser body. Bob didn't try to slice the ribs off, but cut the panels to include one rib on one side and then sanded them to the narrower size of the GPA panels and glued them back together along with inserting a couple of additional panels. Fortuitously, there are two panel joints that are covered by splice plates, not ribs! A PRRRPro project ??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-1-410960754 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On May 7, 2004, at 9:47 AM, robert netzlof wrote: --- Bruce Smith < wrote: Bob Chapman's MOW equipment - Bob had a very nice wreck train, and the GPA hopper I've been planning to build (following his article in MM) The GPA is quite interesting. Could you post the reference to Mainline Modeler (month? year?). 13B0,13B0,13B0I searched the model trains magazine database at http://index.mrmag.com/ with "Chapman" and found: 13B1,13B1,13B1Modeling Pennsy's GPa Hoppers Mainline Modeler, March 1996 page 56 by Bob Chapman I daresay, in view of all the cutting and cementing needed to rearrange the H21 ribs to match the GPA pattern and the attendant problem of aligning all those bits, it's fortunate that PRR found it desirable to install that angle iron on the top chord. The article focused on using Westerfield sides, but Bowser sides could be substituted by disassembling the Bowser body. Bob didn't try to slice the ribs off, but cut the panels to include one rib on one side and then sanded them to the narrower size of the GPA panels and glued them back together along with inserting a couple of additional panels. Fortuitously, there are two panel joints that are covered by splice plates, not ribs! A PRRRPro project <??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-1-410960754-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 16:37:34 +0000 From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:17:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Caps" in Freight Car Classes Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:36:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 May 2004 16:50:06.0335 (UTC) FILETIME=[599910F0:01C43453] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all Thanks Ben. I appreciate your input. Yes, the limitations of eMail can create some problem in lettering. And I defer to your judgment and suggestions. > Morgan's solution is certainly both logical and workable given software limitations; however, everyone needs to be aware that this is NOT the case when we actually letter a car.> The subject of decals is a dreaded one. I have in all my years, never seen any consistency. Mainly because it's noticeable. But not being an expert, and when modeling with no proto picture available - What can one do but rely on the decal manufacturer. Now, we have somewhat of a solution. PRR-Talk! Where one can ask a question, and get some good answers. Not always what one wants to hear, but certainly about as good as having that photo. Thanks to all! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 12:57:07 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) >Subject: train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) >From: "Frederick Ripley" >Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:27:45 -0500 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 11:55:13 -0500 To: b.hom@att.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 10:46 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > Bruce Smith wrote: > "PRR built (although I'm struggling to confirm that), and unique to the > PRR." > > Not entirely true. N&W built copies in Classes HC-1 and HC-2: > http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2178.jpeg > http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns2151.jpeg > > I'll have to confirm if they're H30 or H30A copies - Bob Hundman > published a drawing and short article "Norfolk & Western HC1 Covered > Hopper," Mainline Modeler, March 2001, page 57. Neat! Looks like: H30 outlets (short gate tracks) H30 style roof seams (no overhang) H30 style bolsters (BOTH the A and B end appear to be cast) There is one body difference on the N&W cars and that is that the structural "L" shape over the side stakes is carried to the end of the car body, while BOTH the H30 and H30A only have that shape between the two angled side stakes. A simple detail to add to an H30 model... Oh yeah, are there dashes in N&W car classes? You've got them listed both way above ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: b.hom@att.net From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:56:29 -0500 To: PRR-Talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Oh yeah, are there dashes in N&W car classes? You've got them listed > both way above ;^) I should say that Ben clearly wrote both N&W classes with dashes, while the MM title was sans hyphen...knowing that Ben pays attention to these things, I am assuming that the MM title is incorrect, for now Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:54:11 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the group: This was discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin board, which is populated with representatives of most of the major museums and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may have been the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved between NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does not operate over a Class 1 road. Also, Steamtown is not suspending all steam operations, only its service over the authority-owned trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at Scranton will continue. To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America has announced suspension of service this season on account of insurance. Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. For Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only one. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. --------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to > skyrocketing insurance costs... > > http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm > > Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when > K4s #1361 is ever restored to service. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:06:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/7/04 12:16:33 PM, thayden@keithley.com writes: << My wife ( girlfriend then) rode a sleeper from Cleveland to NY in the summer of 1964 to the New York World's Fair. I am almost sure she rode the Pennsy ( I think I recall seeing a PRR dinner menu). But she is almost sure she got on the train at Cleveland's Terminal Tower, downtown, and not the PRR station at 55th and Euclid. Is that possible, or likely, that she rode a PRR sleeper from the Terminal Tower to NYC?? >> Tom - When I was working for the Pennsy in Cleveland through about November, 1963, my office was in the Illuminatiing building, right across the street from the downtown station (Terminal Tower?). There was a bar called "The Bunch of Grapes" there where we'd stop once in a while. That is where I got on and off the long haul Pennsy trains. It was also the station for the local commuter train (we lived in Lakewood and took the subway in from Triskett Station). I believe the NYC also used the station. We moved to New York after Cleveland and got a wonderful new apartment in Queens, right off Roosevelt Blvd and the IRT subway (it is elevated in Queens) and that was the line your wife rode to the World's Fair (or, "Feh" as the locals called it). So, she certainly got on the train at the downtown Cleveland station. She either got off at Penn Station or Grand Central Station when she got to New York. The IRT hooks up nicely with Grand Central and not so nicely with Penn Station, as I recall. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & List, Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my statement that this was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & List, Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my statement that this was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell for sure? As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:00:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/7/04 2:49:46 PM, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. >> *************** Bill - I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less than 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. Anyone have evidence? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:08:40 -0000 >From: cupper@att.net >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown >Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:54:11 -0400 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:52:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Marty - After 40 years, I'm not ready to bet the farm or even a few acres on it! But I did take passenger trains out of CUT on NYC and NKP and out of 55th St. on Pennsy. Those were the days! I moved there in the early '50's when NKP and much of Pennsy was still steam, and NYC was running steam on some passenger and most M&E (mail & express) trains - Hudsons, Niagaras, Mohawks. They really flew on the flat lands east of Cleveland as did the NKP Berkshires with those freights - mostly reefers and stock cars. Bill > > Bill - > > I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown > terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. > > However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less than > 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. > > Anyone have evidence? > > Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown and insurance problems Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 14:37:45 -0700 Hi, All, It may be that no other steam railroad has had to cancel operations due = to insurance problems but in fact the insurance crisis is a major = problem for all railroad-related endeavors and more than one excursion = (steam or otherwise) has had to cancel recently due to this issue. It is = indeed a major problem..... Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown > Greetings to Jerry and the group: >=20 > This was discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin=20 > board, which is populated with representatives of most of the major=20 > museums and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may = have=20 > been the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved=20 > between NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail=20 > authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining=20 > insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does = not=20 > operate over a Class 1 road. >=20 > Also, Steamtown is not suspending all steam operations, only its = service=20 > over the authority-owned trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at=20 > Scranton will continue. >=20 > To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America has=20 > announced suspension of service this season on account of insurance.=20 > Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. For=20 > Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only one. > ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C43440.DC9FFBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi, All,

It may be that no other steam = railroad has=20 had to cancel operations due to insurance problems but in fact the=20 insurance crisis is a major problem for all railroad-related = endeavors and=20 more than one excursion (steam or otherwise) has had to cancel recently = due to=20 this issue. It is indeed a major problem.....

Doug Kirkpatrick

Medford, OR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Cupper" <cupper@att.net>

To: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>

Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" <prr-talk@dsop.com>

Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 11:54 = AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] = Steamtown

> Greetings to Jerry and the group:
>
> This = was=20 discussed two weeks ago on the Railway Preservation bulletin
> = board,=20 which is populated with representatives of most of the major
> = museums=20 and tourist railroads. The consensus was that insurance may have =
> been=20 the spin NPS put on it, but that something else may be involved
> = between=20 NPS and the owners of the ex-DL&W main line (a county rail
>=20 authority). The news release blames the difficulties of obtaining =
>=20 insurance for operating steam on a Class 1 road--but Steamtown does not =
>=20 operate over a Class 1 road.
>
> Also, Steamtown is not = suspending=20 all steam operations, only its service
> over the authority-owned = trackage. Steam shuttles in the yard at
> Scranton will = continue.
>=20
> To my knowledge, not a single other steam railroad in America = has=20
> announced suspension of service this season on account of = insurance.=20
> Ohio Central is planning a huge steam extravaganza for July. = For=20
> Steamtown, insurance may be a factor, but surely not the only=20 one.
> ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C43440.DC9FFBC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:23:07 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Thoughts on Cincinnati and other Lines West conventions In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Future Convention Locations > From: > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 01:04:31 EDT > > Bill Bigler writes... > > > > >I've seen several posts suggesting that conventions west of Pittsburgh > >should maybe only be every 5 years or so. I'm curious why so many people > seem to > >think this. The superb convention in Cincinnati was attended by 338, about > > >the same number we get at Camp Hill, if memory serves me (dangerous at my > age, > >of course!). Yes, it's a long drive for we easterners, but hey -- our > >eastern conventions are a long drive for the Lines West folks. > > > snip > >Just one SPF's opinion! > > > >Bill Bigler - 4915 > > > I always enjoy reading Bill's most humble opinions as they usually mirror my > > own... He uses good common sense! > > I must apologize for not making the convention this year, first there was a > work conflict and then a sudden family issue, even the work issue took a > back > seat, not generally the case! > > From what I have read it sounds like the turnout was at least as good as ex > pected, perhaps better... Sounds like those that put it together did a > splendid > job! I only wish I could have been there. Bet there are others saying the > same > thing... Well, I hope that the success is enough for these folks to consider > > hosting another event in the future ... perhaps in Dayton or Columbus??? > > Perhaps Rick Tipton can give us a run down on whom was responsible for such > a > well thought out event so we know who to thanks...? > Thanks, > > Greg Martin Well, Greg, 1. You were missed. Looking forward to seeing you next year. 2. As you all know, the Pennsy modelers in Cincinnati are a great bunch of guys. They also are active or retired managers of various things, so I wasn't surprised that they planned smart, worked hard, and avoided unpleasant surprises. This made for a good convention, and convention chair Rick Bailey is just one of the talents that made it so. I'd list everybody involved, but don't want to risk leaving anyone out. Suffice it to say that all the guys in those highly visible canary yellow shirts, with the exception of myself, deserve much praise for their forethought and hard work. I except myself because I spent all the convention preparation time sitting here in Louisville scribbling on the book about Cincinnati. 3. Although much railroading has disappeared in Cincinnati, the city is still a good place to visit for what's left. One example of this is CUT. By a series of miracles over more than 30 years, Cincinnati Union Terminal avoided demolition and eventually won restoration as the city's Museum Center, housing historical, science, and children's museums. In fact, including all the school bus loads of kids, it probably sees lots more foot traffic than at the height of rail traffic there. In any case, there it was, just waiting for our Saturday activities. Between train-watching from Tower A, Dan Finfrock's historical talk on Cincinnati railroading, and the banquet in the rotunda, surrounded by those beautiful mosaic murals, it was an evening to remember. 4. The Cincinnati convention was well attended. I believe the breakeven was set at 225, and the final registration was 338. True, we missed many of our friends from the east -- but the deficit was made up by those members normally too far west to attend a PRRT&HS annual. In fact, the Society picked up a number of new members, who joined in order to come. 5. Concerning a return to Lines West -- we'd all be delighted. A group of us first saw real potential back in 2000, when Tom Vondruska staged a Lines West Fan Fest in Xenia. Up to then, it was an article of faith that the Society would never meet west of Pittsburgh. But that one day Xenia meeting showed us how many Lines West fans there were in the area, and demonstrated email as a tool to build communication among those fans. As a result, the Cincinnati bunch started thinking about what could be done if a convention ever was held in Lines West territory. 6. With the conclusion of Cincinnati's meeting, Chicago is working on some plans for a future convention, and other centers of major Pennsy interest are making rumblings. More conventions are coming. Still, the bulk of Society membership is in the east, and the bulk of conventions will continue there. My guess is that in the future, a) membership in Lines West territory will grow with the number of conventions there b) other Lines West groups will stage conventions that leverage the novelty of Lines West venues c) eventually more of the easterners will accept that occasionally they need to make the arduous trip west. Perhaps the best strategic news at Cincinnati is that passion for the Pennsy is widespread, and that the Society is doing a lot of things right. I was relieved to see that most members attending understand what a magnificent achievement The Keystone Modeler is, and how valuable it has become in representing the Society to those outside our membership. TKM and the Keystone both bring much credit to the Society as representatives of the serious work and attention to quality that characterizes our members, whether prototype fans, historians, or modelers. Fortunately, members seem determined to maintain these worthy efforts, even if faced with a possible dues increase (a straw vote was taken at the annual business meeting). Meantime, this time next year we'll be loading the vans in Cincinnati for the trip to Camp Hill. I hope to see other Lines Western cities doing the same thing. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:16:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk: F38 flatcars X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I am modeling the late 1960's and was wondering how the F38's were painted in their last painting (plain keystone). Was the span bolster / end platform painted FCC ? Was the trucks black or FCC? Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] A useful X29 exception In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1. #8 > From: "Brian J Carlson" > Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400 > > I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error. > In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express > service did receive Ajax power handbrakes." > > I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA > Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car also > has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the > picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years. > > Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible. > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY Brian, Thanks for your citation. I'm assuming this car was in the "Railway Express Agency" variant of CK lettering. Had I been writing Ben's sentence, I would have said the same thing, because I've never noticed an X29 BX conversion that didn't have a power brake. One normally associates an upright brake staff with 1. revenue freight cars -- I have one photo that I took in the 70s of an X29 lettered in SK1b (thus last painted after June 1954) that still retained its brake staff and a rotten wood roof walk. This shot is embalmed in the basement, but IIRC is of a 95xxx series car. 2. work equipment. These X29's typically retained the upright brake staff. BTW, can anyone cite work X29's painted in gray? My impression is that most X29 work cars were converted late enough they were in yellow. This will send us back to restudy our list of known published photos of X29 boxcars modified for AAR Mech Code BX (express box) to see if there are any other upright brake staffs. One wonders if "this is one that got away" from the shops, or if there were others in the same run. Was someone in a huge hurry for the cars? Or could the shops have run low on the desirable power brake, and just not applied it. You probably know that Ben, Bob Johnson, and I are joining forces to produce some detailed rosters for these cars to accompany X29 articles in future Keystones (think perhaps 2006 or later). Thanks for giving us a heads-up on one more feature we need to restudy. And I second your caution -- always model from a photograph. In my early years, I probably made every mistake possible by violating this principle, especially by trusting decal makers' diagrams. Besides, the photo tells you how to weather... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_84.28bfc592.2dcd906f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 1:16:01 A= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: PRR X29's in TKM Vol 1= . #8
From: "Brian J Carlson" <brian@net.bluemoon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:11:52 -0400

I was reading Ben Hom's introduction to the X29 class and noticed an error.<= BR> In the paragraph under Brake System he says "...cars placed in Express
service did receive Ajax power handbrakes."

I have a picture of X29 9495 taken in Hew Haven Conn, on 2-2-1954 in REA
Express service that still has a vertical staff hand brake. This car a= lso
has 2D-F12 coil-elliptic trucks and a Youngstown door. I purchased the=
picture from Bob's photo's at some point in the past 5 years.

Just proves the importance of modeling from photo's when possible.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Brian,

Thanks for your citation. I'm assuming this car was in the "Railway Ex= press Agency" variant of CK lettering.

Had I been writing Ben's sentence, I would have said the same thing, because= I've never noticed an X29 BX conversion that didn't have a power brake.&nbs= p; One normally associates an upright brake staff with
1. revenue freight cars -- I have one photo that I took in the 70s of an X29= lettered in SK1b (thus last painted after June 1954) that still retained it= s brake staff and a rotten wood roof walk. This shot is embalmed in th= e basement, but IIRC is of a 95xxx series car.
2. work equipment. These X29's typically retained the upright brake st= aff. BTW, can anyone cite work X29's painted in gray? My impress= ion is that most X29 work cars were converted late enough they were in yello= w.

This will send us back to restudy our list of known published photos of X29= boxcars modified for AAR Mech Code BX (express box) to see if there are any= other upright brake staffs.

One wonders if "this is one that got away" from the shops, or if there were=20= others in the same run. Was someone in a huge hurry for the cars? = ; Or could the shops have run low on the desirable power brake, and just not= applied it.

You probably know that Ben, Bob Johnson, and I are joining forces to produce= some detailed rosters for these cars to accompany X29 articles in future Ke= ystones (think perhaps 2006 or later). Thanks for giving us a heads-up= on one more feature we need to restudy.

And I second your caution -- always model from a photograph. In my ear= ly years, I probably made every mistake possible by violating this principle= , especially by trusting decal makers' diagrams. Besides, the photo te= lls you how to weather...

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_84.28bfc592.2dcd906f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 22:45:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and Marty. Another refugee from Cleveland surfaces....I was the rate clerk for the PRR in Cleveland from April to December 1964. It was during that time that the last passenger train ran. I reported to Cleveland from New Orleans by taking the Panama Limtied on the IC to St. Louis, met with the Sales Manager-Southwestern States, then boarded the PRR that afternoon to Pittsburgh, where I had to wait until the middle of the night to board the sleeper to Cleveland. Could not sleep because the damn porter chewed my ear off about the "bad old PRR" when he saw my pass. The train defintely terminated at 55th and Euclid, PRR had discontinued going to the old lakefront depot years before. PRR had no direct access into CUT, the PRR main passed under the CUT trackage. The Ohio PSC did a study the summer of 1964 of the train. There were 54 daily riders, of which 52 rode on PRR passes.. The other two used E-L passes! (I don't really know that, only that 52 were PRR deadheads) When I was transferred to Baltimore as a Sales Rep. just before Christmas (PRR was good at that sort of thing), my wife had to drive me to Canton to catch the train to Baltimore as the "Clevelander' was already gone.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > Marty - After 40 years, I'm not ready to bet the farm or even a few acres on > it! But I did take passenger trains out of CUT on NYC and NKP and out of > 55th St. on Pennsy. Those were the days! I moved there in the early '50's > when NKP and much of Pennsy was still steam, and NYC was running steam on > some passenger and most M&E (mail & express) trains - Hudsons, Niagaras, > Mohawks. They really flew on the flat lands east of Cleveland as did the > NKP Berkshires with those freights - mostly reefers and stock cars. > > Bill > > > > Bill - > > > > I told it as I remember it and that was on/off the Pennsy in the dowtown > > terminal. I can't even picture 55th and Euclid. > > > > However, it was more than 40 years ago and I was based in Cleveland less > than > > 6 months, so I'd not bet the farm on my recollection. > > > > Anyone have evidence? > > > > Regards, Marty > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos from Cincinnati From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:MS60 Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:51:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Doc, A while back I picked up a copy of a May/ 1920 make up of pass. trains. This list shows the following: M70-----steel postal car MS60---steel storage car ML------wood storage car Mm-----wood letter car PS------wood postal storage BG60---wood baggage Exp-----express car [ no other ID ] BO-----40'-6" bag/ or/ exp cars The fate of the wooden cars should be obvious, what is not, is the continued use of the steel cars. Rebuildings were plentifull, so it's back to the resource books again. Sent a couple pages of this to Jerry, and it gave him a migraine trying to cross reference all the items. If you like I will be glad to send you pages of interest. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Re:MS60 > > > Jerry & List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" , From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:MS60 Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:58:25 -0400 To: "Fred in Vt." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 7, 2004, at 11:51 PM, Fred in Vt. wrote: > A while back I picked up a copy of a May/ 1920 make up of > pass. > trains. This list shows the following: > MS60---steel storage car Yes, back then there was an actual MS60 car. Later it was a categorization. I have an original PRR passenger equipment roster from 1923 which will be put online at some point. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:35:12 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & Listers, Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who isn't running steam this summer? As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how many steam locomotives catastrophically failed during the later steam years (after 1940, say?) The FRA has an entirely new set of regulations for maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, which were designed to recognize present day technology. We have (and Steamtown is indeed using) a lot of high tech methods of inspecting steam locomotie parts, metal homogeneity, metal thickness, well integrity, etc. that weren't available even 20 years ago. And lastly, there are an awful lot of steam boilers in operation: Virtually all power plants have huge ones, many steam and hot water heating systems use them, etc. Where are the insurance companies getting their risk data from? Somehow I get the idea that there is a lot more behind this whole thing than what we read on the surface. Can anyone clarify? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 11:44:13 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: After seeing CUT, I came home and looked up my information on Buffalo Central Terminal, primarily an NYC terminal, but also used by the Pennsy (required content) and TH&B, as far as I know. The terminal is not only still standing, but the track platforms and umbrella roofs are still there. There was an effort to preserve/restore it a few years ago. They got it cleaned out/up reasonably well, but I haven't been able to find out any more the past couple years. Do any listers, especially any from western NY/Buffalo, know any more about the status of BCT? It was designed by the same guy who designed CUT, and opened in 1929, just a couple years before CUT. Also art decco. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 10:33:33 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dear Bill and others, The big issue is not that catastrophic railfan event accidents have occurred but that the very possibility, however remote, raises the redflag of lawsuits and thus the insurers require huge insurance premiums for such an event. Just one lawsuit could result in a legal award totaling millions of dollars nowadays and even defending against a spurious lawsuit requires a huge expenditure. It ends up being more trouble and expense than most rail companies or excursion groups can handle... Welcome to the modern era of legal and popular greed. Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 8:35 AM Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions > Jerry & Listers, > > Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running > steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it > than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who > isn't running steam this summer? > > As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run > because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what > I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as > Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may > be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why > should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe > the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can > anyone confirm? > > I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many > tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam > excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Cleveland Union Terminal (Terminal Tower) served the NYC, NKP and ERR (EL) which also carried P&LE cars . After Amtrak was formed it used CUT until thru passenger service was eliminated. Shortly after Amtrak service was restored with the Lake Shore Limited the current lake front station was built across the highway from what is now the Browns stadium and the Science Center and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The EL ran one commuter train a day into CUT from Youngstown until about 1976 The PRR had two stations - the main one was off the downtown area along the lake front. I think , but am not sure, that it was also called union station I don't know when it was demolished - probably in the 50's. The second was on Euclid Ave. at or near 55th St. It has also been torn down but if you look you can still see some wall structure as the tracks are elevated at that location. The last train that PRR had to Cleveland was the Clevelander , it think no's 38 and 39, which ran to New York city and carried sleeping cars until the PRR targeted it for elimination - it was eliminated in the late 60's Hope this helps = Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 14:49:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and anyone else interested try this link for information on BCT. as far as preservation, Conrail did a big dis-service years ago when the blew up back of the concourse to allow double stack trains through. Note, that was the official reason even though they could bypass the concourse, local railroaders I've talked to feel limiting future preservation and use was a factor. However I am now getting off topic. http://central.terminal.railfan.net/ Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal vs. Buffalo Central Terminal > After seeing CUT, I came home and looked up my information on Buffalo > Central Terminal, primarily an NYC terminal, but also used by the Pennsy > (required content) and TH&B, as far as I know. The terminal is not only > still standing, but the track platforms and umbrella roofs are still there. > There was an effort to preserve/restore it a few years ago. They got it > cleaned out/up reasonably well, but I haven't been able to find out any more > the past couple years. > > Do any listers, especially any from western NY/Buffalo, know any more about > the status of BCT? It was designed by the same guy who designed CUT, and > opened in 1929, just a couple years before CUT. Also art decco. > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:35 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > From: "William Bigler" > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in Cleveland > and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and early 60's. As I > remember it, the PRR trains all came into the Pennsy station at 55th and > Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > Shaker Heights Rapid Transits. The transit system still uses the terminal, > but alas, Amtrak uses a shed along the lakefront. Cleveland Union Terminal > electrics pulled the trains through the underground terminal in the steam > days while the steam locomotives bypassed the terminal and rejoined their > trains on the other side. As I remember, Pennsy used the 55th St. Station > until the end of PRR passenger service to Cleveland. Since Cleveland wasn't > on the Pennsy mainline, I believe PRR passenger service ended in Cleveland > sooner than other places. I suppose it's possible that after that the PRR > had an arrangement with NYC or NKP to handle through cars for > loading/unloading at Cleveland Union Terminal, but I sure don't remember it. > Anyone have enough old timetables and Official Guides to look it up and tell > for sure? > > As an aside, when they tore down the PRR 55th St. Station, my father > retrieved some of the huge stone blocks used for the retainin wall to use > for a retaining wall along his driveway. I still remember the look on his > face when they set one of them in the back of a friend's pick-up truck and > the springs bottomed out and the suspension nearly collapsed! Needless to > say, they went back and got a bigger truck. Typical of Pennsy, those huge > stone blocks were intended to outlast the earth itself! > > Bill Bigler - 4915 > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > As I understand it from John Rehor's book The Nickel Plate, from 1865 the PRR, the Big Four, and the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had a lakefront Union Depot at the foot of the hill on the north edge of downtown Cleveland. I can't find a reference that describes a later, separate PRR station downtown, but if you stand near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and look south toward the hill downtown is built on, you can see some suspicious-looking stone retaining walls facing you. Certainly, any lakefront station was at the bottom of PRR's well-known grade that descends from the east side of town (where Euclid at 55th was located). Rehor describes the development of Cleveland Union Station (opened 1930) in some detail, and mentions that the Pennsy NEVER went in there. The gulch CUT used also had previous B&O, Erie, and W&LE stations in it; those roads, NYC, and NKP moved into CUT, freezing PRR out. Since Euclid Avenue is shown as an intermediate point in a 1937 and in a 1950 PRR timetable, we can assume PRR trains still went downtown to some terminal then. Checking a 1954 timetable, and also a stray 1958 Official Guide I have here, the Cleveland station reference is to "Penna Station", with next stations out at Woodland Ave and Harvard Ave. This has to mean that by 1954 the trains originated at 55th Street/Euclid Avenue, otherwise it too would still be listed there as an intermediate point. A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate and detailed answer to all this... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re:MS60
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" <docfoot@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400

Jerry &List,

Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on

page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my
statement that this

was a separate &distinct class. What do you think?

Regards,

Eddie

Eddie,

Is this an MS60? Not really ...

2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or oth= er Pennsy rosters. Also see:

Refloc Reftitle Refpage
PRR Color Guide 3 17
PRR Color Guide V1 84
Keystone 1979-1 X42 28

I don't believe it's ever been established:
1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essenti= ally the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b.
2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to s= torage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember,=20= the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day.
3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal=20= evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car=20= might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with a= bout 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulatio= ns. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was onl= y 40'6" long.

Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk start= ed up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't kn= ow. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT= &HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough=20= information on this subject to be satisfactory.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:40:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re:MS60 > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400 > > > > Jerry &List, > > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate &distinct class. What do you think? > > Regards, > > Eddie > Eddie, Is this an MS60? Not really ... 2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or other Pennsy rosters. Also see: Refloc Reftitle Refpage PRR Color Guide 3 17 PRR Color Guide V1 84 Keystone 1979-1 X42 28 I don't believe it's ever been established: 1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essentially the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b. 2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to storage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember, the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day. 3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with about 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulations. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was only 40'6" long. Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re:MS60
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" <docfoot@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:17:51 -0400

Jerry &List,

Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture of #2542 on

page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my
statement that this

was a separate &distinct class. What do you think?

Regards,

Eddie

Eddie,

Is this an MS60? Not really ...

2542 is one of ten X42 class 2540-2549, as can be confirmed by ORPTEs or oth= er Pennsy rosters. Also see:

Refloc Reftitle Refpage
PRR Color Guide 3 17
PRR Color Guide V1 84
Keystone 1979-1 X42 28

I don't believe it's ever been established:
1. exactly what year PRR's class MS60 mail storage cars, a steel car essenti= ally the same as a B60b, were converted and reclassified to B60b.
2. exactly why the planned consists of Pennsy trains continued to refer to s= torage mail cars as MS60's after the class ceased to exist. Remember,=20= the requirements in these plans added up to hundreds of cars a day.
3. exactly what cars were used to fill a planned MS60 slot -- but anecdotal=20= evidence from various emails over the past 6 years indicates the actual car=20= might be a PRR baggage, an X42, or any available foreign road baggage with a= bout 60 feet of loading space for storage mail, per US Post Office regulatio= ns. In some cases, the car may have even been an X29 BX, which was onl= y 40'6" long.

Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since PRR-Talk start= ed up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit that we just don't kn= ow. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually surfaces from the PRRT= &HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there just isn't enough=20= information on this subject to be satisfactory.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_60.3e8f5e8a.2dce9fbb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:12:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/8/2004 12:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: << As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? >> I have heard the managment of two steam tourist railroads comment directly on their recent experiences with insurance costs. In both cases, they have been quoted enormous increases in insurance costs -- in one instance, seven-fold -- when their policies came up for renewal. This is neither a problem limited to Class 1 trackage, nor an imaginary excuse. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:36:55 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since > >PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit > >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually > >surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there > >just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. > > What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Correctamundo . None whatsoever... until we discover some real data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)... PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too short!! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 17:36:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since > >PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit > >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventually > >surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now, there > >just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. > > What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Correctamundo . None whatsoever... until we discover some real data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)... PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too short!! Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_127.405666ac.2dceacf7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/8/04 5:03:07 P= M Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Ric= kTipton@aol.com wrote:

>
> Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since
>PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit >that we just don't know. Personally, I'm hoping more info eventual= ly
>surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown. But as of now= , there
>just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory.

What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyr= r.com

Correctamundo <LOL>. None whatsoever... until we discover some r= eal data. Meanwhile, back to the horse cars (PRR M74b and L&N)...<= BR>
PS -- it was great to see you all in Cincinnati. The time was too shor= t!!

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_127.405666ac.2dceacf7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 18:21:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N5e HELP! Hi All, I just printed a Builders Photo of the N5e. Even though it is B&W, it does not appear to have a different color for the roof. (Black) I know that the roof sometimes was FCR earlier, but this photo was taken in 1946. My customer wants it to be the usual black roof and FCR body for the 1950s. Does anyone have a color photo in Circle Keystone and a black roof? If so, what year was it taken if known? What about yellow grabs and step edges? Since I know this will never be made in S Scale I never paid attention to any photos. But this is the HO model imported by Alco. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:30:16 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I can tell you from talking with railroad employees in the area that the current FRA issues with steam operation came about because of the engine explosion that occurred on the Gettysburg Railroad a decade ago. The explosion killed the engineer and seriously injured the firemen. From what i heard the root cause among other minor things was that the firetubes were not structurally sound. After that the FRA really got strict. My two cents. John "William Bigler" wrote: Jerry & Listers, Was surprised and more than a bit upset that Steamtown won't be running steam. As Jerry or someone surmised, it seems like there must be more to it than just the insurance issue. Does anyone know for sure who is and who isn't running steam this summer? As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? I'm not sure I understand what the big issue/risk is. Just how many tourists or passengers have been killed or seriously injured by steam excursions where diesel operation would have prevented it? And just how many steam locomotives catastrophically failed during the later steam years (after 1940, say?) The FRA has an entirely new set of regulations for maintenance and operation of steam locomotives, which were designed to recognize present day technology. We have (and Steamtown is indeed using) a lot of high tech methods of inspecting steam locomotie parts, metal homogeneity, metal thickness, well integrity, etc. that weren't available even 20 years ago. And lastly, there are an awful lot of steam boilers in operation: Virtually all power plants have huge ones, many steam and hot water heating systems use them, etc. Where are the insurance companies getting their risk data from? Somehow I get the idea that there is a lot more behind this whole thing than what we read on the surface. Can anyone clarify? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 00:36:09 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John Frantz wrote: > from talking with railroad employees in the area that the current FRA > issues with steam operation came about because of the engine explosion > that occurred on the Gettysburg Railroad a decade ago. Greetings to Jerry, John and the List: Yes, this was the wake-up call that brought down the Feds on the steam excursion/tourist railroad world. The engineer was severely burned but not killed, and at last report was still at the Knox & Kane; the fireman was injured but not in a life-threatening way. The cause of the accident was multiple errors, none of them mechanical or structural, all of them either operational or procedural. The explosion resulted from a classic low-water crown-sheet failure. The aftermath of the accident intensified the scrutiny under which all steam locomotives in the U.S. today are maintained and operated -- and that is one reason among many that there has been so much concern over, and oversight of, the quality of repairs being done to the boiler, firebox, and backhead of No. 1361 (required PRR content). You can read the feds' report on the accident here: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/1996/SIR9605.pdf. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2 Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 00:45:55 -0400 List, Has any lister had the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or = operate same?? Some dark spot in my mind thinks it would make an = interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn. interchange operations. For = my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 hoppers, that will suffice. = Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so none of the local = suppliers have one as yet. Comments-------------??? Thanks, Fred = in Vt ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4355E.FC7795B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,

      Has any = lister had=20 the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or operate same?? Some dark = spot in my=20 mind thinks it would make an interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn.=20 interchange operations. For my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 = hoppers,=20 that will suffice. Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so = none of the=20 local suppliers have one as yet.=20 Comments-------------???       Thanks, = Fred in=20 Vt
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C4355E.FC7795B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 05:31:35 -00 From: johnf2384@suscom.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 19:30:16 -0400 From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] X29's in MOW Service. Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 01:43:30 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Does anyone know when the PRR started to place X29's into MOW service? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 08:04:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <00af01c434a6$82f498e0$1c6a9e0c@gtcom.net> Message-Id: <1752CA15-A1B1-11D8-9083-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [141.158.35.177] at Sun, 9 May 2004 07:03:13 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, For anyone interested in the decline of passenger railroading in the late 50's and early 60's, I recommend "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred Frailey from Kalmbach. One of the best RR books I have ever read. The one sentence summery is that most trains still covered their out of pocket costs until the USPS pulled the mail off. Railroads often claimed fully allocated costs to the public because they were much higher. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:42:48 eds Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,13,15,17-18,22,28,31,37-42 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The fireman was a teenager who had "qualified" for the position. The responsibility should not have been placed upon a youth in the first place. The locomotive is currently at the Ohio Central, and hopefully, it will get a rebuild sometime in the future. She was a very modern CP light Pacific (Class G5, incidentally) and her design was such that the rush of steam vented through the grates rather than in an explosive boiler failure. From the exterior, you couldn't sense that the failure was as catastrophic as it was. This was nail #1 in the live steaming coffin. Nail #2 was a live steam tractor failure at a fair in Ohio. The tractor was severely degraded, and by severely, I mean the boiler was eroded beyond any safe tolerances. The safety was suppressed, and it was fired way over limits. The father and son team that owned the tractor had no technical experience with steam powered vehicles. They owned an old tractor and would fire it up for kicks. When it blew up, both men were killed and a 15 foot deep crater was left where the tractor had stood. Many others were injured as well. These two undereducated steam enthusiasts were the real reason that steam has been thoroughly squelched in the USA. The Brits has an incredibly alive steam locomotive (and steam tractor) program. They have the public funding through the national historic trust, which is lottery funded. There are strict, self-imposed, limits on locomotive service before a massive teardown and rebuilding occurs. They have regular locomotive tests and actively pursue metallurgy and the like. This program is so effective that the final ten locomotives from the Barry scrap yard are being fought over for parts to rebuild extinct classes of certain engines. In fact, there is serious argument as to which locomotives will be left un-rebuilt, to show what the steam resurection program was all about! Steam railroading in Britain is so healthy that at least two glossy magazines are published monthly with up to date steam locomotive information and promotion. May I add, at the risk of being accused of being a Socialist and un-American, that the British "get it" and we are so hung up on private funding, that we cut off our noses to spite our faces? Preserving our historical treasures, mechanical and architectural, is in everyone's best interest, rather than the responsibility of a few enthusiasts. Steamtown is a perfect example. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:00:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 In-Reply-To: <00af01c434a6$82f498e0$1c6a9e0c@gtcom.net> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greg said: "When I was transferred to Baltimore as a Sales Rep. just before Christmas (PRR was good at that sort of thing),..." Yes, I remember being transferred from Branch Line Supervisor at Sharon, PA (Lake Division) to Mainline Supervisor at Plymouth, IN (Fort Wayne Division) one week before Christmas, in 1965 or 1966. We had three little kids at the time. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 15:40:40 -00 >From: aurora7@juno.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions >Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 10:42:48 eds From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Buffalo Terminal-used by PRR Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 11:02:50 -0400 Bill, if you do a search named buffalo terminal on google the first two = pages list a number of good sites for photos,but, look at some of the = links they list. There are a large number of neat photos that have been = taken of the areas not shown on most sites and one guy describes these = places in detail. There is a group working to secure and stabilize the terminal and they = hold tours 2 or 3 times a year. They also hold clean up parties that = might allow participants to see areas not on the tour. LH ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C435B5.2B87F6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bill, if you do a search named buffalo = terminal on=20 google the first two pages list a number of good sites for photos,but, = look at=20 some of the links they list. There are a large number of neat photos = that have=20 been taken of the areas not shown on most sites and one guy describes = these=20 places in detail.

There is a group working to secure and = stabilize=20 the terminal and they hold tours 2 or 3 times a = year. They also hold=20 clean up parties that might allow participants to see areas not on the=20 tour.

LH
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C435B5.2B87F6A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 11:05:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] ICC formula/RPO's (was train consolidation) From: Frederick Ripley Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 09:54:15 -0700 (PDT) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:

I have one of the Spectrum USRA 2-6-6-2's. It is a very nice engine and a very smooth runner. I would recommend it. It is a perfect size for an articulated and looks great pulling a string of hoppers. Peach Creek Shops has the Bachmann C&O Vandy tenders, which look great behind her.

Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: "Fred in Vt."
Sent: May 8, 2004 9:45 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-6-6-2

List,

      Has any lister had the chance to see the new Spectrum unit, or operate same?? Some dark spot in my mind thinks it would make an interesting addition to the Panhandle Dvn. interchange operations. For my purposes, if it will handle 25 to 30 hoppers, that will suffice. Things arrive slowly up here in the mountains, so none of the local suppliers have one as yet. Comments-------------???       Thanks, Fred in Vt

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:00:07 -0500 PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with the = Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with the=20 Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the=20 typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches = ever=20 thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 13:00:07 -0500 PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with the = Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with the=20 Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the=20 typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches = ever=20 thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C435C5.8E08FE40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 May 2004 17:22:13 -0400 From: dave pierson Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: While it may not be an insurance issue purely, I'd expect insurance has an impact. Other, non-steam tourist ops have cut back, or canceled. ...and with multiple entities involved if Just One gets nervous about _their_ organizational financial exposure things can get sticky. Being involved in 'another activity' with high insurance impact, I have been exposed to what i regard as knowledgeable commentary: LOTS of 'specialty' insurances are rising. And its little to do with actual or statistical risk. Insurance Cos make lots of money investing the premiums. Except when the markets turn bad. While the last 9 months have been good in the markets, the two years before that, or 4 years or... were pretty bad. The insurance Cos need to make up their revenue, so the policy rates go up. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Troop trains and the Ohio wreck Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:36:01 -0400 In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you referring to the = wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one tell me the = date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone covered this? Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you = referring=20 to the wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one = tell me=20 the date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone = covered=20 this?

Fred Rea
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Troop trains and the Ohio wreck Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:36:01 -0400 In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you referring to the = wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one tell me the = date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone covered this? Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you = referring=20 to the wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one = tell me=20 the date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone = covered=20 this?

Fred Rea
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C43605.3E1B4F10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:33:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted asks: > Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? As has been stated, Yes. Just a word of clarification. The Troop Sleepers offered by Wlathers will represent the "phase 2" cars built by Pullman in 1945, not the "phase 1" cars built in 1943. The kitchens are appropriate from 1943 onward. Note that there is an excellent article on these cars in the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol 5. >Did they ever run combined with the > Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? No reason why they wouldn't have. >What was the > typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches ever > thrown into the consist? A brief treatise on WWII troop trains (for the in depth one, come to Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach next January ) Early on in the war, troop trains consisted mainly of tourist cars (12-1, converted to 13 sections), and other high capacity section cars. However, shorter haul troop trains, and even some long distance trains were made up with day coaches. Baggage cars served as temporary kitchens. The extreme shortage of troop sleepers prompted first the conversion of X32s, and then the construction of the sleepers and kitchens. These cars were designed to be run in multiple 7 to 9 car sets (6-8 sleepers and a kitchen). In late 1943, and into 1944 there are photographs of solid trains of the Pullman Troop Sleeper/AC&F Kitchen Cars in service. However, these were rapidly mixed with the existing fleet of heavyweight pullmans, resulting in mixed trains. This type of service continued for nearly a year after the war ended as the huge demobilization continued. Immediately thereafter, the Troop Sleepers and some of the Kitchens were sold off, however a number of the Kitchens were also retained and could be found interspersed with heavyweight pullmans through the Korean War. It would be unlikely, but not impossible for P70s (or any day coaches) to be mixed with troop sleepers on the same train during WWII. Exceptions probably abound, but for the most part these can be attributed to a single sleeper attached to a coach train, and most likely containing the ranking officers. I plan three troop trains for my 1944 era layout 1) Pullman plan 2410 12-1 Toruist cars, with a CNJ baggage converted for kitchen duty 2) Pullman Troop Sleepers/AC&F Kitchen car and PRR P30A sleeper 3) PRR P70 coaches and B60B converted for kitchen duty - note that this train, with a Pullman added, will serve westbound as a POW train. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] steamer issues Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 01:06:28 -0400 Gents; I live about 35 miles from that Medina County Fair steam tractor = explosion a few years ago that sent shockwaves thru this area relative = to ANYTHING steam powered near breathing humans. There were 5 killed and the steam tractor was not in good shape to = begin with just as was stated by Richard Glueck. I had heard the FRA took a knee jerk response to anything steam untill = they could review all the parties that had steam operations of ANY type! = That may be why the Ohio Central is back up and running steam to some = degree...... Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C4362B.06063420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gents;

I live about 35 miles from that = Medina County=20 Fair steam tractor explosion a few years ago that sent shockwaves thru = this area=20 relative to ANYTHING steam powered near breathing humans.

There were 5 killed and the steam = tractor was=20 not in good shape to begin with just as was stated by Richard=20 Glueck.

I had heard the FRA took a knee = jerk response=20 to anything steam untill they could review all the parties that had = steam=20 operations of ANY type! That may be why the Ohio Central is back up and = running=20 steam to some degree......

Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C4362B.06063420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:17:16 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors and hospitals to mention a few. The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up 4 fold and continue to rise. I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of insurance for the steam railroad industry. Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam Excursions Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 07:41:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <005701c43512$0d9b9500$a5d71842@stny.rr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-index: AcQ1E/Qmigl6nrE7SKKIn9XU1fgtdABdyTpw Message-ID: <1127929580-495894497@dsop.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill, 261, at least, is running all over Wisconsin, Illinois, Missouri and Minnesota this June. Check out www.261.org for excursion schedules, including a two-day layover in Chicago and several short trips in the Twin Cities. The OC is hosting a HUGE steam festival over the last weekend in July, in Dennison, OH (old Pennsy tracks). http://www.trainfestival2004.com/ In addition to at least three of their own steamers in operation, PM 1225 will be traveling over class 1 tracks from Michigan to attend, and if they finish rebuilding her in time, NKP 765 will be traveling over the NS from Ft Wayne. PM 1225 is scheduled for at least two of her own trips in Michigan this year. http://www.mstrp.com/schedule.htm So it does look like SOME steam operators are able to foot the bill for steam fantrips, or at least light moves over class 1's and regionals. All I know is that I catch 'em while I can! Ray Breyer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 9:35 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Steamtown & Steam Excursions Jerry & Listers, As I remember, SP 4449, SP&S 700, UP engines, and MLW 261 probably won't run because of insurance issues, but I haven't heard any final word. From what I can surmise, Ohio Central is running, along with museum operations such as Cass, Strassburg, Nevada Northern, etc. As someone mentioned, the issue may be running on Class 1 railroads. However, from an insurance standpoint, why should this be different from running anywhere else? And I don't believe the Delaware & Lackawanna, whose tracks Steamtown uses, is class 1. Can anyone confirm? Bill Bigler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:20:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Freight Car Fleet From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to all who assisted in filling in the available models that represent cars in the 1954 PRR freight car fleet. The page has developed nicely. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/freightops/54_fleet/ I will try to keep this page up-to-date with new releases; please feel free to assist me! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:32:09 -0400 AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop trains. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches ever thrown into the consist? just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01C43671.AA89D2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
AFAIK the=20 X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop=20 trains.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM
To: PRR Talk
Subject: = [PRR]=20 Walthers Troop Cars

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with the=20 Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What was = the=20 typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 coaches = ever=20 thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted
------=_NextPart_000_0154_01C43671.AA89D2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:25:22 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Thread-Index: AcQ0RGPxoe0xQA2jRPConfTKLtyc7gCVXOww From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Ted Andrews" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 14:25:23.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1818520:01C4369A] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Your house premiums may well increase if you try to obtain full value for your models if they are stolen. On my home insurance, I have a "fine arts" rider for which I declare the market value of the models, and I will receive this value if they are stolen. I pay extra for this. Without this rider, a private insurance company may - or - may not reimburse you for the full value of the models stolen. And I've been told that if they reimburse for full value, they most likely will cancel. The NMRA offers insurance to assure that you receive full value for your models if they are stolen. This may be a better value than obtaining a rider on your current home owners insurance. -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:44 AM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 All I can say is Thanks allot sue-happy society. The liberal tort laws that enable lawyers=20 and their plantiffs to base their case not on the truth but rather how much=20 money the defendent has have directly influenced what happened in Steamtown.=20 What is next will the excursions pulled be diesels. .....I wonder if my house premimums will go up because I have models of=20 steam engines in my basement. Ted >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 >Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 > >Steamtown has announced a suspension of all steam excursions due to=20 >skyrocketing insurance costs... > > http://www.nps.gov/stea/excursion2004.htm > >Obviously there will be a similar impact on the Altoona Museum if/when K4s=20 >#1361 is ever restored to service. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:13:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Capitals in car letters From: Greg Ritacco Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi Group, I'm just catching up with my PRR-Talk posts and for what it's worth, my copies of passenger car lettering details dated from 6-12-01 and obsoleted 4-12-38 show all upper case letters for passenger equipment. I.E. BM70K. HOWEVER, the notes are hand written. Also the cars are designated in an interesting way: MP --- E 54 That's the best I can type it, almost like a fraction. Also, wooden equipment is designated all upper but the first letter is much bigger, as in PK. There were no dashes on any of the designations. Greg. --Apple-Mail-2-671705835 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Hi Group, I'm just catching up with my PRR-Talk posts and for what it's worth, my copies of passenger car lettering details dated from 6-12-01 and obsoleted 4-12-38 show all upper case letters for passenger equipment. I.E. BM70K. HOWEVER, the notes are hand written. Also the cars are designated in an interesting way: MP --- E 54 That's the best I can type it, almost like a fraction. Also, wooden equipment is designated all upper but the first letter is much bigger, as in PK. There were no dashes on any of the designations. Greg. --Apple-Mail-2-671705835-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Kirkpatrick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 09:03:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: TWIMC, I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the stock market did in 2000-2002. In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: Cc: "prr Talk" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions > For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any > unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors > and hospitals to mention a few. > > The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it > on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which > may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards > of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical > malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the > remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay > losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last > year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by > most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up > 4 fold and continue to rise. > > I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of > insurance for the steam railroad industry. > > Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 - now insurance Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:20:58 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2004 16:29:05.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[E969F780:01C436AB] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all I am not an insurance expert. But: At age 65, experience is on my side. I live in a mobile home. My home owners specifically includes "all belongings". I contacted them about a year after buying the policy (Incidentally, I have Foremost, but through the AARP. No agent, all over the phone. Not a plug. No personal interest in Foremost.). They told me that as long as the items are "totally within the house", they are covered. The also said that as long as my policy is specifically designated "full value" that they would pay that amount. If - any insurance company drops you for making a legitimate claim, you have government recourse. Now, one caveat. Do not make it a habit of making claims for every little thing. I had roof problems (Ever hear of TX storms? LOL ) and when I contacted roof repair, they told me it would cost $500. My deductible is $250. But I thought, get it repaired, pay that extra $250 to "help" Foremost and keep this claim off the record. (You also know that even if you just "call" the insurance company with an inquiry, it goes against you.) This way, I keep my premiums down. And, it the repairs were over that $500, I certainly would have made the claim. My point is. Keep those claims down. Lastly, when I did have major roof damage and made the claim, the insurance covered the entire re-do. Over $2,000 minus my $250. I have had excellent repore (sp) with them. Some of my models are worth more than I can imagine, what with buying a brass loco for $40 and latest book value is over $400. And have seen it on eBay for $1,000. Theft is minimal. It's mainly fire and such that scares me. My apologies to Jerry for non-RR content. But beg your indulgence in a very important matter. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 13:21:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions Greetings to all: Here's more on why insurance is not the only thing muddying the waters in Scranton. http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11442767&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8 Run by knowledgeable and railroad-friendly folks (read: sober, dry-eyed business professionals who also happen to be not-so-closeted railfans) the Lackawanna County Rail Authority has been very helpful in arranging access for, and working with, Steamtown, private-enterprise short-line freight operations, and others. The county's desire to take over LCRA may make sense from some administration standpoint, but almost certainly bears the marks of partisanship. If there's any city in Pennsylvania where outright partisan politics dominates local government more than in Scranton, I have yet to see it, though Erie and Philadelphia would be close contenders. Let's hope that this is resolved so that when PRR 1361 is back in steam, it won't end up limited to the NPS yard shuttle but rather, gets to stretch its legs on the ex-DL&W main line. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote: >TWIMC, > >I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put >out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest >their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the >stock market did in 2000-2002. > >In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist >operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis >which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion >that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the >problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) > >Doug Kirkpatrick >Medford, OR > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James L. McDaniel" >To: >Cc: "prr Talk" >Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM >Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions > > > > >>For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any >>unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors >>and hospitals to mention a few. >> >>The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it >>on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which >>may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards >>of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical >>malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the >>remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay >>losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last >>year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by >>most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up >>4 fold and continue to rise. >> >>I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of >>insurance for the steam railroad industry. >> >>Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> >> > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------070505040006000606000602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to all:

Here's more on why insurance is not the only thing muddying the waters in Scranton.

http://www.scrantontimes.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11442767&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=415898&rfi=8

Run by knowledgeable and railroad-friendly folks (read: sober, dry-eyed business professionals who also happen to be not-so-closeted railfans) the Lackawanna County Rail Authority has been very helpful in arranging access for, and working with, Steamtown, private-enterprise short-line freight operations, and others. The county's desire to take over LCRA may make sense from some administration standpoint, but almost certainly bears the marks of partisanship. If there's any city in Pennsylvania where outright partisan politics dominates local government more than in Scranton, I have yet to see it, though Erie and Philadelphia would be close contenders.

Let's hope that this is resolved so that when PRR 1361 is back in steam, it won't end up limited to the NPS yard shuttle but rather, gets to stretch its legs on the ex-DL&W main line.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

Douglas Kirkpatrick wrote:

TWIMC, I've been told the "losses in the stock market" theory is a red herring put out by lawyers. Most insurance companies don't invest in stocks; they invest their reserves in bonds and Treasury notes. These didn't crash like the stock market did in 2000-2002. In any event, the point is that not only steam roads, but all tourist operations as well as main line railroads are facing an insurance crisis which makes many operations prohibitively expensive. If you find a excursion that's operating, take it, grin and bear it. (And try not to add to the problem by filing spurious lawsuits....) Doug Kirkpatrick Medford, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" <jlmcdaniel@esva.net> To: <davep@quik.com> Cc: "prr Talk" <prr-talk@dsop.com> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Insurance & Steam Excursions

For whatever reason, it has become increasingly expensive to insure any unusual or risky event: steam locomotives, Iraqi oil tankers, doctors and hospitals to mention a few. The folks who analyze this from medical malpractice viewpoints blame it on several factors including lawsuit happy patients and lawyers (which may or may not be true), "bad" doctors who aren't weeded out by Boards of Medicine, shrinking numbers of competing companies offering medical malpractice insurance, and huge losses in the stock market by the remaining insurers who use market profits to fund reserves and pay losses. My personal insurance as a physician has doubled in the last year and will triple in two more (while my reimbursement is being cut by most healthcare insurers.) The rates for our community hospital went up 4 fold and continue to rise. I suspect that you could make the same case for the rising costs of insurance for the steam railroad industry. Jim McDaniel, steamless in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

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--------------070505040006000606000602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:50:46 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cleveland stations In a message dated 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chrisandbelton@comcast.net writes: > Subj: RE: [PRR] Cleveland stations > Date: 5/10/04 12:21:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: chrisandbelton@comcast.net > To: RickTipton@aol.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com, > PRR@yahoogroups.com, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > Sent from the Internet > > > > The PRR did indeed serve another station in Cleveland - the old Union > Station located on the waterfront between the downtown and the NYC mainline. > This was the second Union station in Cleveland, built in 1866 after the > original Union Station burned in 1864. It sat near W 9th Street at the > lakeshore. It lost most of its traffic when Terminal Tower opened in 1930. > It served the PRR after that until 1953 and was demolished in 1959. Here's > a link to a picture of the station in its heyday: > http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/clevelandunionold.jpg > > Chris Baker > PRRT&HS #1918 Thanks Chris, This confirms the date the PRR shifted to 55th Street (1953). It also confirms that PRR stayed in the ex-Union Depot which had been shared with the two NYC roads (Big Four and Lake Shore & Michigan Southern) until 1930. The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the lakeshore. One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to downtown on the hill above. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:29:33 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On May 10, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Andy Miller wrote: > AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop > trains. Well, not EXACTLY . If you reference the Keystone article on the X32 conversions you will find that the initial cars (P78 coaches) were built to ferry troops on liberty from Camp Atterbury (Indianna?) to the nearest city (HELP! Lines West brain cramp!) P78A, P78B and P78T ( a single trailer) coaches were subsequently built (or converted from "command cars" which were not used) for commuter service. These cars were lettered PENNSYLVANIA, retained their PRR freight numbers and did not get Allied Full Cushion Trucks. The P30 was built as a prototype Troop Sleeper and subsequently, 29 additional cars were built as P30A class Troop Sleepers. These cars were then leased to PULLMAN and operated as Troop Sleepers for the remainder of the war, with numbers in the Troop Sleeper series. The P30As were also equipped with Allied Full Cushion Trucks. Of note, these cars were built with porthole windows circa March-June 1943, but were were converted to square sash windows by November 1943, leaving but a 6 month window for porthole window P30A sleepers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-690674814 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On May 10, 2004, at 8:32 AM, Andy Miller wrote: Arial0000,0000,FFFFAFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop trains. Well, not EXACTLY <. If you reference the Keystone article on the X32 conversions you will find that the initial cars (P78 coaches) were built to ferry troops on liberty from Camp Atterbury (Indianna?) to the nearest city (HELP! Lines West brain cramp!) P78A, P78B and P78T ( a single trailer) coaches were subsequently built (or converted from "command cars" which were not used) for commuter service. These cars were lettered PENNSYLVANIA, retained their PRR freight numbers and did not get Allied Full Cushion Trucks. The P30 was built as a prototype Troop Sleeper and subsequently, 29 additional cars were built as P30A class Troop Sleepers. These cars were then leased to PULLMAN and operated as Troop Sleepers for the remainder of the war, with numbers in the Troop Sleeper series. The P30As were also equipped with Allied Full Cushion Trucks. Of note, these cars were built with porthole windows circa March-June 1943, but were were converted to square sash windows by November 1943, leaving but a 6 month window for porthole window P30A sleepers. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-2-690674814-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:05:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 The NMRA insurance is much less expensive than that of a rider on your home owner's policy. I looked into it several years ago finding the rider was almost three times the cost and did not provide as much coverage as the NMRA policy. Well worth the cost of an NMRA membership just to get the insurance. A frustration with many insurance companies is that they regard our train collections as toys and not collection. Read this as they will not insure for the full value. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084237556 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
The NMRA insurance is much less expensive than that of a rider o= n your home owner's policy. I looked into it several years ago finding= the rider was almost three times the cost and did not provide as much cover= age as the NMRA policy. Well worth the cost of an NMRA membership just= to get the insurance.

A frustration with many insurance companies is that they regard=20= our train collections as toys and not collection. Read this as they wi= ll not insure for the full value.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1084237556-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 21:50:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 46 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/10/04 8:35:45 PM, jer@smellycat.com writes: << Also, while it is well-documented that the PRR never used Cleveland Union Terminal, what is less well-known is that the builders of CUT made provision for them to do so if they wanted to. >> OK, I am prepared to admit that my 1963 memories of taking the Pennsy to Philadelphia from the downtown Cleveland terminal may have been fuzzy and inaccurate. I do remember cabs from the office in the Illuminating Building out Euclid Avenue (?). In my long term memory is a recollection of a restaurant called the "Black Angus" on the right side of Euclid as we drove to 55th Street. I used to eat there; they had nice steaks at a reasonable price. The Cleveland office of the Pennsy was unique in that we also represented the administrative headquarters of the Akron-Barberton-Belt-Railroad-Company. This was significant because the ABB was, alphabetically, on the top of the list of all US class one railroads and, as such, the rails unions (all of them) se rved all Section Six notices on us, in the Illuminating Building. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 23:12:13 -0500 MessageThanks for the correction, Andy, on the P78 and P78a converted = coaches. Except for about a dozen used for troop service from Camp = Atterbury to Indianapolis, other locations for leaves, etc, the = remaining majority were used in suburban service in Pittsburgh, Chicago, = etc, as you say. =20 I confused them with the 40 P30a cars which were troop sleepers also = converted from boxcars. These plus 5 or 6 PRR kitchen cars were leased = to Pullman and roamed the country in troop trains. Details in Fall 1998 = Keystone. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andy Miller=20 To: 'Ted Andrews' ; 'PRR Talk'=20 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:32 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars AFAIK the X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop = trains. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars PRR-Listers: Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined with = the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? What = was the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 just wondering..... Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C436E4.3AB3ECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message
Thanks for the correction, Andy, on the P78 and = P78a=20 converted coaches. Except for about a dozen used for troop service = from=20 Camp Atterbury to Indianapolis, other locations for leaves, etc, = the=20 remaining majority were used in suburban service in = Pittsburgh,=20 Chicago, etc, as you say.

I confused them with the 40 P30a cars which = were=20 troop sleepers also converted from boxcars. These plus 5 or 6 PRR = kitchen cars=20 were leased to Pullman and roamed the country in troop trains. = Details in=20 Fall 1998 Keystone.

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Andy = Miller=20

To: 'Ted Andrews' ; 'PRR = Talk'

Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:32 = AM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers = Troop=20 Cars

AFAIK the=20 X32s were used in commuter service to free up P70s for troop=20 trains.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, May 09, 2004 2:00 PM
To: PRR = Talk
Subject: [PRR]=20 Walthers Troop Cars

PRR-Listers:

Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks? Did they ever run combined = with=20 the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2? = What was=20 the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy? Were P70 = coaches=20 ever thrown into the consist?

just wondering.....

Ted
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C436E4.3AB3ECD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:39:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's -- More Paint Schemes Shipped From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <3016485B-A348-11D8-8D8D-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement... The second batch of Bowser HO scale N8's has shipped. It includes the following additional paint schemes.... #56301 PRR Circle Keystone - Eastern Region #56303 PRR Circle Keystone - Pittsburgh #56305 PRR Shadow Keystone - Buckeye Region #56307 PRR Shadow Keystone - Chesapeake Region #56309 PRR Plain Keystone Red Body, black roof #56311 PRR Plain Keystone Red Body, Yellow Cupola, Buckeye Region #56313 "PEN" #56315 Conrail Blue - Large Logo #56316 Conrail Green Body #56318 Penn Central, P logo #56319 Penn Central ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] ID this car Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:40:04 +0000 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Cleveland stations Bill Vigrass' Views Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:26:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A083@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 14:17:24.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[AE9B9110:01C43762] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I asked emminent Cleveland historian Bill Vigrass to comment on this subject. His reply is repeated below. I think you will find it to be of interest: Bill Vigrass says: As far as I know the PRR had no plan to use CUT. BUT, the design of the CUT had a tunnel/ramp up from the CCC&STL in the flats to the coach yard which could have been used by PRR. It was never used and was severed by the new GCRTA Waterfront LRT line where it descends to the old ERIE depot. PRR stopped using old Union Depot at West 9th and Lakeside before it abandoned passenger train service and used E. 55th St.at Euclid Ave as its only station in Cleveland. The trains still deadheaded to Union Depot where there was a small yard, I think (not sure). I am sure that PRR was still using Union Depot in 1948 when they inaugurated the Steeler, 2:45 hr train CLE PGH via Alliance, four cars pulled by a K4. Willis McCaleb then photographer for NKP and long time friend took me, then a messenger for ERIE RR down to the waterfront and we watched it leave. ERIE later countered with its STEEL KING from CUT to PGH via ERIE Yotown P&LE after ERIE moved into CUT. I hand carried the agreement between ERIE and CUT to obtain signatures while a messenger for ERIE RR's Comptroller, T. J. Tobin, summer of 1948. So you see, ERIE could not have moved into CUT without me! Bill, former Cleveland resident, and former employee ERIE RR Co. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Jordak Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:28 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations Rick Tipton wrote: > The Steam Powered Video map of Cleveland shows two stations on the > lakeshore. > One is labelled "Amtrak", so we know this is the present facility. The > other is labelled the "PRR Station", but must actually be the old "Cleveland Union > Depot". Pictures in Rehor suggest that the old, yellowed stonework I saw on > my 2000? trip to Cleveland may have been from the access road snaking up to > downtown on the hill above. If you go today to near where I think West 9th Street passes under the Shoreway (Route 2), there is a driveway going down to what is now a parking lot, that has substantial stone retaining walls along it, with PRR stanchions and railings, or at least it did as of a few years ago. Maybe if the weather is nice tomorrow and the duty pager is quiet, I'll walk over there at lunchtime and see if the PRR stanchions and railing are still there. Also, while it is well-documented that the PRR never used Cleveland Union Terminal, what is less well-known is that the builders of CUT made provision for them to do so if they wanted to. When the Greater Cleveland RTA was building the Waterfront light-rail line about 5-6 years ago, they escavated a pair of ramps on either side of the CUT viaduct to bring the light rail tracks down to street level below the viaduct. The tracks were laid going towards Lake Erie on the old NYC/Big Four mainline, later known as the Clark Branch. While all this escavation was going on, the work crews unearthed a tunnel. Construction was halted briefly while my friend Blaine Hays, who was the RTA's historian and is a foremost expert on traction and transporation in the Cleveland area, went to the site and investigated it, and from what they could figure out, it looked like the tunnel would have provided for a track that to come up into CUT off of the old Big Four. PRR trains could have run downtown, past the old Union Station, turned south on the Big Four east of the Cuyahoga River drawbridge, and then made a sharp left and climbed up into CUT. Next time Blaine comes over for a work session on the layout, I'll have to ask him about all that again and make sure I have my facts straight, but if I remember all of this correctly, the PRR could have used CUT if they wanted to. Considering the low number of trains that they ran to and from Cleveland compared with the NYC, Nickel Plate, Erie, and B&O, and the cost of rent as a tenant in CUT compared to the cost of operating their station at Euclid and East 55th, it probably makes sense from an economic standpoint why the PRR didn't exercise that option. -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:37:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:37:45 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <000701c4298f$0b1eda50$6401a8c0@ABBuchan> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Cessna" Subject: [PRR] D78F Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:24:50 -0400 Looking for interior photos of a "modernized" D78F diner for use in = cleaning/restoring ours here in the Museum yard. Color would be great = but could use any help. Haven't yet gone out and climbed around under = her but I'm assuming this car had locking pins on the trucks that are = releasable from outside the car? We need to crane her and the operator = asked.=20 Thanks everyone. Scott Cessna ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C43742.31173430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Looking for interior photos of a = "modernized" D78F=20 diner for use in cleaning/restoring ours here in the Museum yard. = Color=20 would be great but could use any help.  Haven't yet gone out = and=20 climbed around under her but I'm assuming this car had locking pins on = the=20 trucks that are releasable from outside the car? We need to crane = her and=20 the operator asked.

Thanks everyone.

Scott Cessna
------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C43742.31173430-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:53:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Joint terminal operation At 09:37 AM 5/11/2004, Andy Miller wrote: >All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to >use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Actually the bitter rivalry was between General Atterbury and the Van Sweringen brothers. This stems from the consolidation plans being proposed during the 20's. Randy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 09:53:40 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Joint terminal operation Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:02:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Thread-Index: AcQ3Z0F0kxRD/4WYTRqBknN7h8nS1wAAY4jg From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" , , "PRR-FAX" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:02:39.0565 (UTC) FILETIME=[00AD07D0:01C43769] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:02:38 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Thread-Index: AcQ3Z0F0kxRD/4WYTRqBknN7h8nS1wAAY4jg From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" , , "PRR-FAX" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:02:39.0565 (UTC) FILETIME=[00AD07D0:01C43769] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Railroad Art on PCN From: "PCN Publicity" Subject: Railroad Art on PCN Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:13:44 -0400 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:03:55 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A188@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:54:54.0972 (UTC) FILETIME=[4D862BC0:01C43770] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Try Erie , Detroit, Toledo and Columbus -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:03 AM To: Andy Miller; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR-FAX; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:26:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Buffalo Central Terminal served both PRR and NYC. It was built and operated by NYC which had a slew of trains per day each way - Pennsy only had a few. TH&B also used it, I believe. NKP and DL&W shared a terminal downtown, and LV had it's own terminal downtown. LV moved out to E. Buffalo when construction of the NYS Thruway displaced them. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: ; "'PRR-FAX'" ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 10:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation > All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to > use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. > Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the > NYC and the PRR? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:10:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Union Station in Erie, PA. was on the NYC and Nickel Plate main lines. PRR had trackage rights to the station. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" ; ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:07:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A208@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 17:58:56.0599 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1145670:01C43781] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: NADA. Union Station was NOT on the NKP tracks. NKP had their own station at 19th & Parade or thereabouts. It was "Union Station" because the PRR and NYC shared it. Don't remember PRR using NYC tracks to get out of town. (At least not to Corry) They used NYC west of town but the passenger trains were long gone from that line before my watch. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Shickler Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 1:10 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Union Station in Erie, PA. was on the NYC and Nickel Plate main lines. PRR had trackage rights to the station. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" ; ; "PRR-FAX" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo, Indianapolis, Englewood, Il. St. Louis. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:26:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Buffalo Central Terminal served both PRR and NYC. It was built and operated by NYC which had a slew of trains per day each way - Pennsy only had a few. TH&B also used it, I believe. NKP and DL&W shared a terminal downtown, and LV had it's own terminal downtown. LV moved out to E. Buffalo when construction of the NYS Thruway displaced them. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:21:31 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:23:20 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/11/2004 3:21:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ted_andrews@msn.com writes: > So what version is BLI doing? J1 is what they are showing. IIRC the difference was a cast frame vs. welded frame. > > What is the difference between the Ohio Division - Eastern and Eastern Division began at US tower in Pittsburgh and went to the Crestline Division point. Don't recall the exact location it may have been Canton > Division-Panhandle? Panhandle began at PH tower in Pittsburgh and went to the division point with the Columbus Division Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:24:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Not being familiar with the NKP, I assumed* they used the Union Station, seeing as they ran so close together (though there is much more separation there than further east). The track charts I have don't fully show the P&E coming into the station. I assumed* they connected w/ the NYC to reach the station. Does anyone have track charts of the station? In the following picture: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/eriest3.jpg (not taking anything for granted anymore) it appears to be facing east, with the station on the left. It looks to me as there may be as many as 10 sets of tracks. If the P&E had its own tracks, they would likely be on the far right, correct? How many did they have? This chart http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/od_w2.gif doesn't show west of Parade St., but it would suggest two (the dotted line at the top being the NYC). * - the adage proves itself once again. Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "'Jerry Shickler'" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation > Jerry: > > I didn't think that the NKP was party to the Union Station agreement, > only LS&MS, P&E and E&P.. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 16:51:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, BLI 2-10-4 locomotives represents a "Cast Frame" J. What does this mean? All J1a's had Cast Frames while some, half? of the J1's had Cast Frames. So if the model represents a Cast Frame J, then the model is good for either the J1 and the J1a. I will have to look into the numbers again that BLI is doing to see if they chose correct ones, but I think they did. I know 6418, the J1a is correct. The tel-tel sign that the BLI J's represent the "Cast Frame" Locos is that it features that little "hump" on the pilot above the coupler. For some reason, Cast Frame J's had this. All J1a's and as I said above, many of the J1's did as well. Only J1's had "Fabricated" Frames, which we know the BLI does not represent. So, the model is either, just be sure the number matches a Cast Frame J number. Photo evidence is the only way to tell....Gary PS: My mentor on J1's is now on line. John, if I screwed something up, chime in...... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:01:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <20040511185716.88168.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: <66F96AF4-A38E-11D8-AF5B-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [141.158.56.244] at Tue, 11 May 2004 15:59:56 -0500 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Don't forget Mackinaw City, MI at the northern tip of the lower peninsula and the end of the GR&I. The Pennsy line from Petosky came in from the southwest and the NYC line from Indian River and Topinabee came in from the south. The NYC train was the Northerner and the PRR train was, of course the Northern Arrow. It must be the smallest union station around. In 1952 it saw two trains. I know the PRR ran into the 1960's. I'm not sure about the NYC. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, I wanted to add this in my last post but forgot. To get the idea of the Pilot "Hump" spotting feature, look on page 91 of Pennsy Power. Pictured there are 2 photos of 6474, a J1 and 1 photo of 6444, another J1. Notice that 6444 has a hump above the coupler and 6474 lacks this. Although they are both J1's, 6444 is a Cast Frame J1 and the 6474 is a Fabricated Frame J1. Now look on page 92. Top photo depicts a "Cast Frame" J1a, # 6432. We know ALL J1a's had Cast Frames so all photos of J1a's and the J1's that show this "hump" are Cast Frame Locos. Again, from the photos and reports from people who saw the BLI J's, their model will be a Cast Frame J1a and J1, not the Fabricated Frame J1.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 17:46:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040511185716.88168.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Union Station contracts were between the LS&MS, E&P and P&E. The PRR passenger trains typically used the south side platform at Union Station, NYC Track 63 (a.k.a. PRR Psgr Track) and Track 67 (a.k.a. New Connection to PRR). Both had easy access to OD yard. The PRR freights were routed around Union Station via the E&P/P&E Lake Track (a.k.a. Lake Front Branch from Elm to Dock Jct.) where the P&E and E&P ownership ended 50' east of the State Street crossing right on the lake front. Re: The only [PRR] connection I saw to the Nickel Plate was at Dock Junction where it notes: N. Y. C. & St. L. Ry. Conn via N. Y. C. R. R. Based on a NYC Erie facilities track diagram I have (1949), the NKP connected with the NYC at Wesleyville Yard vic MP 85 via NYC Track 139 (east of Union Station) . The NYC track diagram and another PRR facilities diagram I have shows the NKP connecting with the NYC via a "Connecting RR" (NYC Track 113) vic. MP 88 (west of Union Station) just south of 12th and Liberty Streets. However, I don't believe it was an interchange per se, as it appears to be a connecting track so both lines could serve the Erie Forge Co. and other industries in that area. The PRR (P&E) connected with the NKP east of OD yard just south on the NYC's Wesleyville Yard. The PRR connected with the NYC at various places including Girard Jct (E&P)., Dock Jct. (E&P), Wesleyville Yard (P&E), Union Station/OD yard (P&E), and interchange with the E&P in the vic. of Liberty Street, one block east of MP 88 via NYC Track 94 (a.k.a. E&P Interchange) The PRR (E&P) also connected with the B&LE vic.12th and Cascade Streets. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 18:41:35 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? >Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? >From: "Gary Mittner" From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:04:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009501c43795$fb255880$960100c0@ges> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: It looks to me as there may be as many as 10 sets of tracks. If the P&E had its own tracks, they would likely be on the far right, correct? Yes, they were to the far right. See my earlier post on this subject. According to the NYC track diagram there were 10 tracks through the station. From north to south they were Track 114/144 Perm siding/North Station Siding, Track 24 No 1. North Siding, Track 3 W'wd Main, Track 1 W'wd Main, Track 2 E'wd Main, Track 4 E'wd Main, Track 55 South Running Track, Track 63 PRR Psgr, Track 67 New Conn. to PRR and Track 87 Morton's No 1. Island platforms were between Tracks 3 and 1, 2 and 4, and 63 and 67, which is confusing as the photo seems to show four platforms while the 1949 diagram only shows three The photo was taken looking east from No. 1 Track, the train is an E'wd on Track 2. Re: This chart http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/od_w2.gif doesn't show west of Parade St., but it would suggest two (the dotted line at the top being the NYC). Yes the dotted line would be the NYC, Track 55. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It is now understood the the Erie, PA union station was served by both PRR lines and the NYC -and was not served by the NKP. There is one other RR that served Erie with passenger service - the Bessemer & Lake Erie - which until some time in the early 50's had a train from Greenville, PA and back 5 days a week. I remember seeing it and as I recall it was a locomotive and one car.. Does anyone know the station used by the Bessemer - was it the Union Sta. or did it have its own? Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It is now understood the the Erie, PA union station was served by both PRR lines and the NYC -and was not served by the NKP. There is one other RR that served Erie with passenger service - the Bessemer & Lake Erie - which until some time in the early 50's had a train from Greenville, PA and back 5 days a week. I remember seeing it and as I recall it was a locomotive and one car.. Does anyone know the station used by the Bessemer - was it the Union Sta. or did it have its own? Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:27:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, I heard back from a J1 fan I mentioned before. He is new the the net and wanted me to post his reply. He added a bit more. Here was his message: E-mail message yo, gary..... =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 looks like you got it pretty good !!=A0=A0=A0 only the first twenty five locos, all J-1s, #'s 6450-6474,=A0 have the fabricated frame feature, along with the smoothly rounded pilot top.=A0=A0 b.t.w.=A0 the center section of the pilot was part of the frame casting, so the hump was in fact, cast into the whole structure. we must then assume.......if we dare.....that the pilots on the first 25=A0 J-1s were put together much like a K-4 pilot being applied in the post-war years.=A0=A0=A0=A0 there is also a difference in boiler plate material, and hence weight, between the two classes.=A0=A0=A0 as far as accessories go, it would appear that except for frame related parts on the first 25 locos, everything would be pretty much interchangeable throughout the whole series.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 the presence of outside sanders, and smoothside cabs ( Q-2 style ) was almost certainly limited to the first 25 J-1s............so b.l.i. owners won't need to be concerned about that stuff ( famous last words !!)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 but don't forget to put on that air bottle (on the Power Reverse) , if they left it off, and hopefully they will have fixed the lack of cold water pump, and attendant feed pipe, or we'll never get out of altoona !!! =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 jaygee ...............Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] WAS: Joint terminal operation, Erie PA, NOW: B&LE station Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 20:17:13 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] B&LE in Erie, a correction From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 08:36:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <3501579F8815D511AEC6009027CCB5D357A2BF@HERZOGMGMT> Importance: Normal Return-Path: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 May 2004 12:27:18.0856 (UTC) FILETIME=[77837480:01C4381C] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: All: Another Cleveland historian of note weighs in on the history of Cleveland and the PRR's role there. His note below adds yet another dimension to the historic cloth. Bill Volkmer From: Harwood Herbert [mailto:herbhar@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 11:59 AM To: Vigrass, Bill Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations Bill- Tell your friends that yes, it's true, PRR never had any formal intention to use CUT. There are reproductions of letters from PRR officials in the Wheeler Report (see my Van book) which clearly show the PRR was against the while project. Nonetheless, as you note, the Vans were ever-optimistic and made provision for an entry, albeit an awkward one, since trains would have to go through the same gyrations the B&O eventually did to get into the terminal. HHH -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Mark D. Bej Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 4:17 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; bejm@eeg.ccf.org; louis@raex.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Cleveland stations On Sat, May 08, 2004 at 04:40:35PM -0400, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/7/04 9:43:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) > > From: "William Bigler" > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:29:26 -0400 > > > > Hmmm - I'm confused (not unusual as age takes over). I grew up in > > Cleveland and rode many a train out of there during the 50's and > > early 60's. As I remember it, the PRR trains all came into the > > Pennsy station at 55th and Euclid. The Terminal Tower served the > > NYC and NKP, plus the Cleveland and > A Clevelander like Mark Bej could undoubtedly provide a more accurate > and > detailed answer to all this... Unfortunately, I am a transplant from a decade ago. This is a subject about which I was vaguely familiar, learned a bit from this email, but cannot speak with authority. You need someone like Louis Niederlander. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:22:25 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" > The PRR passenger trains typically used the south side platform at Union > Station, NYC Track 63 (a.k.a. PRR Psgr Track) and Track 67 (a.k.a. New > Connection to PRR). Both had easy access to OD yard. So these were, then, actually NYC tracks? ----- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] MSTS PRR equipment Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:49:14 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] MSTS PRR equipment Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:49:14 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:28:33 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] BLI....J-1 or J-1a?? >From: "Gary Mittner" and jaygee From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 11:18:48 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 In-Reply-To: <003c01c43824$2a767180$960100c0@ges> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: RE: The PRR passenger trains typically used the south side platform at Union Station, NYC Track 63 (a.k.a. PRR Psgr Track) and Track 67 (a.k.a. New Connection to PRR). Both had easy access to OD yard. So these were, then, actually NYC tracks? Yes, they were NYC tracks. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 12:36:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Downtime Scheduled for 5/12/04 From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <769C904B-A432-11D8-9384-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Our ISP has notified us that there will be network interruption on May 12, 2004... "On Saturday, May 15th, between 12 AM and 6 AM, epix Internet Services will be conducting an maintenance to the JackFlash DSL network. The maintenance is integral to our continued efforts to improve our service. We have selected this time frame to avoid disruption of service to a majority of our customers." So plan accordingly and patiently wait for the system to come back online (they are seldom on-time!). ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 Subject: [PRR] X25 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-68 ip=216.93.194.18 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi group, Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams of ARE? Thanks in advance. Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:28:05 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's -- More Paint Schemes Shipped Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement... HO scale PRR B60b Baggage cars have been announced. These are built-ups of a brand-new Bethlehem Car Works kit which features brass sides. "PENNSYLVANIA" versions are due in June, express messenger versions due in July, and "Keystone" versions due in August. Each release will feature four road numbers and only 500 cars in the run. Reserve now! BOWSER The second batch of HO scale N8's (more paint schemes) has arrived and will ship out today to those with reservations. It includes the following additional paint schemes.... #56301 PRR Circle Keystone - Eastern Region #56303 PRR Circle Keystone - Pittsburgh #56305 PRR Shadow Keystone - Buckeye Region #56307 PRR Shadow Keystone - Chesapeake Region #56309 PRR Plain Keystone Red Body, black roof #56311 PRR Plain Keystone Red Body, Yellow Cupola, Buckeye Region #56313 "PEN" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Top 30 PRR car classes tool Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:17:57 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Good Afternoon, I wanted to let y'all know about a new web page that I hope will be a useful research tool for modelers of the PRR and any other contemporary standard gauge US railroad (after all, if you model anything else, you model the Pennsy!), the PRR Top 30 Classes page: Please take a look at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/topclass/ You can either look at a given year and get the top 30 PRR car classes, or just the cars of a certain type (e.g. gondolas) in the top 30. Alternatively you can look up a specific class (e.g. X29) and see the distribution over years. The data covers 15 selected years (1917, 1921, 1924, 1927, 1930, 1932, 1936, 1939, 1943, 1945, 1949, 1955, 1959, 1964, 1967) and nearly 100 car classes. The original data was gleaned from the Keystone, Volume 7, Number 3, September 1974, copyright PRRT&HS and was used with their permission. I transcribed the data set and Jerry Britton created the web interface. If you have PRR car class numbers for a year that is not covered, we would be DELIGHTED to add that year to the database. Please contact either Jerry or I. Please note that ONLY the top 30 classes appear for any given year, and that a class that falls from the top 30 classes in a given year will not appear for that year. This may mean that the class was dropped by the PRR at that time, it may mean that it has become a "minor" class, whose representation on all but the largest layouts (or most specialized) would constitute an "oddball". I hope that you will find this resource useful, and more particularly, that it inspires others to post similar research tools for their railroads...since if you model PRR, you model every other railroad too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4-851979076 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Good Afternoon, I wanted to let y'all know about a new web page that I hope will be a useful research tool for modelers of the PRR and any other contemporary standard gauge US railroad (after all, if you model anything else, you model the Pennsy!), the PRR Top 30 Classes page: Please take a look at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/topclass/ You can either look at a given year and get the top 30 PRR car classes, or just the cars of a certain type (e.g. gondolas) in the top 30. Alternatively you can look up a specific class (e.g. X29) and see the distribution over years. The data covers 15 selected years (1917, 1921, 1924, 1927, 1930, 1932, 1936, 1939, 1943, 1945, 1949, 1955, 1959, 1964, 1967) and nearly 100 car classes. The original data was gleaned from the Keystone, 04A2,04A2,04A2Volume 7, Number 3, September 1974, copyright PRRT&HS and was used with their permission. I transcribed the data set and Jerry Britton created the web interface. If you have PRR car class numbers for a year that is not covered, we would be DELIGHTED to add that year to the database. Please contact either Jerry or I. Please note that ONLY the top 30 classes appear for any given year, and that a class that falls from the top 30 classes in a given year will not appear for that year. This may mean that the class was dropped by the PRR at that time, it may mean that it has become a "minor" class, whose representation on all but the largest layouts (or most specialized) would constitute an "oddball". I hope that you will find this resource useful, and more particularly, that it inspires others to post similar research tools for their railroads...since if you model PRR, you model every other railroad too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-4-851979076-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: [PRR] Three Rivers Transfer Prototype Modeler's Display Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 20:24:29 +0000 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] PRR and Cleveland UT (Blaine Hays) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:37:27 -0400 All: Not sure Blaine is a subscriber so I will transmit to PRR talk so it doesn't go unprinted............. B. Volkmer Blaine Writes: On February 17, 1919, a meeting of the representatives of the various Cleveland railroads produced a document that detailed some of the passenger station items upon which they were all to agree. The document was signed by all members of the committee. The representative of "Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburg" (later known as "Lines West") was Mr. Robert Trimble, Chief Engineer-Construction for the PRR. The word "Pittsburgh" is spelled both with and without an "H" in the document. When Mr. Trimble signed he added "...subject to the reservation that the Penna Lines is not committed to the project." The construction managers decided to build the two single track ramps anyway so the Pennsy - should it later decide it wanted to come in - could simply build a track leading down from its lakefront yard to the bottom of the ramps. For years this alignment carried an old Erie RR yard track and is today the route of RTA's Waterfront rapid line between Settler's Landing and Flats Eastbank stations parallel Old River Road. The PRR last used its lakefront station in 1953 and it was torn down in 1959. The ramps with 'Pennsy fence' and sandstone walls are still there and provide a backdrop for the Cleveland Police impound lot. Twenty-three years after the opening of CUT, in 1953, the construction of the west side alignment of the CTS rapid transit removed all signs of the PRR ramps. They were subsequently forgotten. During the advanced days of construction of RTA's Waterfront Line in early 1996 the contractor ran smack into the side of the old concrete tunnel walls. The City of Cleveland had demanded the line be operational by the celebration of the Bicentennial over the July 10th weekend. Cutting through these walls added a huge previously unknown financial burden to the project with crews on 24 hour shifts. Cost overruns resulted. RTA's engineers quickly decided to retain access to the PRR ramps and added man doors at the last minute. The CUT story is ever fascinating and always evolving. Blaine Hays ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C4383F.699A1FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message

All:

Not sure = Blaine is a=20 subscriber so I will transmit to PRR talk so it doesn't go=20 unprinted.............

B.=20 Volkmer

Blaine=20 Writes:

On February 17, 1919, a meeting of = the=20 representatives of the various Cleveland railroads produced a document = that=20 detailed some of the passenger station items upon which they were all to = agree.=20 The document was signed by all members of the committee. The = representative of=20 "Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburg" (later known as "Lines West") was = Mr.=20 Robert Trimble, Chief Engineer-Construction for the PRR. The word = "Pittsburgh"=20 is spelled both with and without an "H" in the document. When Mr. = Trimble signed=20 he added "...subject to the reservation that the Penna Lines is not = committed to=20 the project."

The construction managers decided to = build the two=20 single track ramps anyway so the Pennsy - should it later decide it = wanted to=20 come in - could simply build a track leading down from its lakefront = yard to the=20 bottom of the ramps. For years this alignment carried an old Erie RR = yard track=20 and is today the route of RTA's Waterfront rapid line between Settler's = Landing=20 and Flats Eastbank stations parallel Old River Road. The PRR last used = its=20 lakefront station in 1953 and it was torn down in 1959. The ramps with = 'Pennsy=20 fence' and sandstone walls are still there and provide a backdrop for = the=20 Cleveland Police impound lot.

Twenty-three years after the opening of = CUT, in 1953,=20 the construction of the west side alignment of the CTS rapid transit = removed all=20 signs of the PRR ramps. They were subsequently forgotten. During the = advanced=20 days of construction of RTA's Waterfront Line in early 1996 the = contractor ran=20 smack into the side of the old concrete tunnel walls. The City of = Cleveland had=20 demanded the line be operational by the celebration of the Bicentennial = over the=20 July 10th weekend.

Cutting through these walls added a huge = previously=20 unknown financial burden to the project with crews on 24 hour shifts. = Cost=20 overruns resulted. RTA's engineers quickly decided to retain access to = the PRR=20 ramps and added man doors at the last minute. The CUT story is ever = fascinating=20 and always evolving. Blaine Hays
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C4383F.699A1FE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:38:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Philly area hobby shops This modeler of the PRR in S scale, a resident of the Central Pennsylvania backwoods, will be in the Philidelphia area this Saturday helping my wife do some spring shopping. She agrees that it is only fair that I get to do some shopping of my own. Can anyone recommend a good hobby shop, perhaps on the western outskirts, that caters to scratchbuilders, and better yet S scalers? I am familiar with Mitchell's in Wilmington. I am curious what else is out there. Lee Rainey --part1_e4.4dcaaade.2dd43994_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" This modeler of the PRR in S scale,= a resident of the Central Pennsylvania backwoods, will be in the Philidelph= ia area this Saturday helping my wife do some spring shopping. She agrees th= at it is only fair that I get to do some shopping of my own.

Can anyone recommend a good hobby shop, perhaps on the western outskirts, th= at caters to scratchbuilders, and better yet S scalers? I am familiar with M= itchell's in Wilmington. I am curious what else is out there.

Lee Rainey --part1_e4.4dcaaade.2dd43994_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Headend cars While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across this: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm Enjoy! Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084450408 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across this:  =20=

http:= //www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm

Enjoy!

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1084450408-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Headend cars While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across this: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm Enjoy! Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084450408 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across this:  =20=

http:= //www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm

Enjoy!

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1084450408-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] X25 Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:36:00 +0000 From: DWilson823@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 10:01:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation In Grand Rapids Michigan, the PRR owned Union Station was shared with the NYC, Grand Trunk Western and the Pere Marquette. This station also housed the Division offices until about 1954. The PRR and NYC alternated station switching duties on a monthly basis. In earlier years, the PRR would bring an NYC coach down to Kalamazoo for the NYC Chicago bound train. Dorman Wilson Kalamazoo, MI -------------------------------1084456862 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In Grand Rapids Michigan, the PRR owned Union Station was= shared with the NYC, Grand Trunk Western and the Pere Marquette.

This station also housed the Division offices until about= 1954.

The PRR and NYC alternated station switching duties on a monthl= y basis.

In earlier years, the PRR would bring an NYC coach down t= o Kalamazoo for the NYC Chicago bound train.

Dorman Wilson

Kalamazoo, MI
-------------------------------1084456862-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 11:42:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Summer Issue of Classic Trains From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <1480D4D2-A4F4-11D8-A895-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Kalmbach web site shows the contents of the forthcoming issue of=20 Classic Trains. It includes the following PRR material... North Meets South: Washington Union Station in the 1940s and =9250s The gateway to the nation=92s capital featured a stately terminal=20 building, extensive support facilities, and the diverse trains of two=20 regions; with District of Columbia rail map, terminal track diagram,=20 and Pennsylvania Railroad train-consists for a day in 1946. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:25:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <34AF4ACC-A4FA-11D8-A895-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: For years there has been an informal group in southeastern PA, northeastern MD, DE, and southern NJ that has put together a multi-week layout open house tour each fall. Last year there were over 100 layouts open over five weeks. For three years I have put together road trips from the York area to visit many of these layouts. Everyone who has gone wanted more, and couldn't wait to get home and run trains! Add to that the superb job that the Cincinnati Modelers Division did with tours on the recent PRRT&HS annual meeting. They have an "association" type setup for forming layout tours for specific occasions (NMRA, PRRT&HS, etc.). Here in southcentral Pennsylvania (York, Harrisburg) we have been inspired! We've been talking over the past few months about setting up something like what they do in the Philly area... starting out small and on one, non-conflicting weekend. The Cincinnati experience kind of drove home the "how to go about it" idea. The result is the Susquehanna Valley Model Railroaders (SVMR). We have 12 layouts in our initial pool to work from, plus another dozen or so that we need to visit and determine their suitability. We do not rivet count, but when time is limited, we want to insure that visitors are seeing layouts worthy of their choice of time expenditure. In other words... we won't recommend layouts that are two loops of UniTrack temporarily laid on a sheet of plywood with no scenery! I am inviting anyone who has a layout in our "operating area" to contact me OFF LIST so we can follow up with consideration for inclusion. We are concentrating on the York, Harrisburg, Camp Hill, Mechanicsburg "corridor", but I'd like to consider other east shore locations such as Columbia, Hummelstown, Middletown, Hershey, Dauphin, Linglestown, etc. Who's out there? We need to find you! Here's the web site of the SVMR.... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/svmr/ Our first tour is expected to be this fall... probably in early December. We'll also be arranging the tours for the 2005 PRRT&HS annual meeting, to be held in Camp Hill in May. We already have 8 layouts committed for that tour, with more coming. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RamblingReck@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Summer Issue of Classic Trains Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:31:24 +0000 From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR FM Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:40:28 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I just received an O Scale PRR FM flat with containers by the Car Works = from a customer. It has decal set in it that is an unbelievable white image on white decal paper. Has anyone = else made a better decal set for this car? Middle Division? I really would prefer to not use this set if possible. = Beside the white on white issue, they don't look all that correct to me as well. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net =20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] MTH PROTO 2000 SOUND Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:48:09 -0400 Group, Does anyone have any info on the announcement that MTH is going to put = out their Proto-2000 sound for HO & N? I have a Bowser K4 that I an just = finishing and would like to try it out on that model. I have the = helix-humper already installed... The announcement was in the last issue = of the MR mag. and I have e-mailed MTH but haven't heard back from them. = Been almost a week... SamV ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C438E8.8B989FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Group,

Does anyone have any info on the announcement that MTH is going to = put out=20 their Proto-2000 sound for HO & N? I have a Bowser K4 that I an just = finishing and would like to try it out on that model. I have the = helix-humper=20 already installed... The announcement was in the last issue of the MR = mag. and I=20 have e-mailed MTH but haven't heard back from them. Been almost a = week...

SamV
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C438E8.8B989FA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Turntable and roundhouse questions Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:05 -0400 From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Turntable and roundhouse questions Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:45:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:49:40 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH PROTO 2000 SOUND Sam: MTH is apparently serious about this (they have sent an annoucement to dealers very similar to the annoucement in MR). However, there are no further details yet. They promise them "later" to the dealers. Currently, there are no specs for the sound system and no samples available. All you can currently do is wait (and see if the MTH system comes out before/is better than the forthcoming Soundtraxx Tsunami, QSI standalone, etc). Jeff Warner Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > Does anyone have any info on the announcement that MTH is going to put > out their Proto-2000 sound for HO & N? I have a Bowser K4 that I an > just finishing and would like to try it out on that model. I have the > helix-humper already installed... The announcement was in the last > issue of the MR mag. and I have e-mailed MTH but haven't heard back > from them. Been almost a week... > > SamV --------------050801060803040408010801 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Sam:

MTH is apparently serious about this (they have sent an annoucement to dealers very similar to the annoucement in MR). However, there are no further details yet. They promise them "later" to the dealers. Currently, there are no specs for the sound system and no samples available. All you can currently do is wait (and see if the MTH system comes out before/is better than the forthcoming Soundtraxx Tsunami, QSI standalone, etc).

Jeff Warner

Sam Vastano wrote:

Group,

Does anyone have any info on the announcement that MTH is going to put out their Proto-2000 sound for HO & N? I have a Bowser K4 that I an just finishing and would like to try it out on that model. I have the helix-humper already installed... The announcement was in the last issue of the MR mag. and I have e-mailed MTH but haven't heard back from them. Been almost a week...

SamV

--------------050801060803040408010801-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] MTH PROTO 2000 SOUND Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:44:01 -0400 From: Jeff Warner [mailto:jeff@pennsyrr.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH PROTO 2000 SOUND size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Warner PM
To: Sam Vastano; PRR Talk List
Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:08:07 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH PROTO 2000 SOUND Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Jeff Warner wrote: > > Sam: > > MTH is apparently serious about this (they have sent an annoucement to > dealers very similar to the annoucement in MR). However, there are no > further details yet. They promise them "later" to the dealers. > Currently, there are no specs for the sound system and no samples > available. All you can currently do is wait (and see if the MTH > system comes out before/is better than the forthcoming Soundtraxx > Tsunami, QSI standalone, etc). > > Jeff Warner > > Sam Vastano wrote: > > > Group, > > > > Does anyone have any info on the announcement that MTH is going to > > put out their Proto-2000 sound for HO & N? I have a Bowser K4 that I > > an just finishing and would like to try it out on that model. I have > > the helix-humper already installed... The announcement was in the > > last issue of the MR mag. and I have e-mailed MTH but haven't heard > > back from them. Been almost a week... > > > > SamV Guys, Let's get the terminology correct. MTH has Proto 2 which is their DCS (digital command system). Proto 2000 is Life Like's designation for the upper level models. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 21:18:58 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR and Cleveland UT (Blaine Hays) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill Volkmer wrote: > Blaine writes: > > The PRR last used its lakefront station in 1953 and it was torn down in > 1959. The ramps with 'Pennsy fence' and sandstone walls are still there > and provide a backdrop for the Cleveland Police impound lot. Today at lunch I walked down to the site of old Union Depot, and the ramps are still there. The one on the West 9th Street side still has two sections of "Pennsy fence," one section about 9 stanchions long, the other about 6 stanchions long. The area today appears to be a public parking lot. (I think the Cleveland PD impound lot now is near the B&O/CSX Clark Avenue Yard, south of downtown.) For the photographers on the list, the area near Union Depot today provides a nice vantage point to shoot a westbound NS train coming down the former PRR C&P main heading towards the Cuyahoga River drawbridge with Cleveland Browns Stadium in the background. -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] J1 flangeless drivers Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:54:05 -0500 As a result of a discussion on the Steamloco list, I am curious if = anyone can point me to a source for which drivers on the J1/J1a were = flangeless. Did this change over time? Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C4394D.F4B58BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
As a result of a discussion on the = Steamloco list,=20 I am curious if anyone can point me to a source for which drivers on the = J1/J1a=20 were flangeless. Did this change over time?

Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C4394D.F4B58BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:35:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] J1 flangeless drivers MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob, Keystone Vol 7 #1 March 1974. This issue lists the Locomotive Drive Wheels for each loco class. The J1/J1a had flanged drivers on all. It appears they stayed flanged thought out their lives. ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Turntable and roundhouse questions Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:42:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris, 1) I don't know of any drawings, so you're best bet would=20 be to check out some photgraphs. 2) The distance from edge of pit to door depends on the=20 length of the turntable. This is in direct corrolation to=20 evan's response whereas if the tracks were on a 10 degree=20 increment the door would be farther from the edge of a 90'=20 turntable, than from the edge of a 135' table. Though if=20 principle the required distance of door to edge of pit is=20 solely dependent upon radius of the table.=20 Esentially all does depend upon degree increment of=20 tracks. If you can determine center of turntable, you can=20 draw a line for where the doors will be and unless you=20 have a huge turntable, you could essentially install any=20 turntable and the distance would be correct for the doors.=20 If you are still confused refrence the schematic on the=20 website of where I work for our roundhouse reference=20 guide. http://www.cmrtrain.com/roundhousespec.pdf=20 Hope this helps. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Chany, Christopher" wrote: Listers, Two questions: 1) Are there plans anywhere for the railing/electric=20 connection tower/shanty for PRR turntables? 2) Is there a standard distance (or minimum or maximum)=20 that a roundhouse was set back from the turntable pit? Thanks Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:15:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] BLI M1 Alert Several people have noted that BLI did not provide a second hole in the drawbar for close coupling of the tender on layout with broad curves. Like many others, I drilled one myself and have been running the loco extensively for several months now. Last night the loco developed a short. Investigation indicated that the drawbar now extending under the tender, was rubbing against the copper wiper on the first axle of the tender. Apparently the blackening of the drawbar provided enough insulation initially to prevent this, but as the drawbar continued to rub against the wiper, eventually it wore away to bare metal and a short occurred. Now I know why BLI did not provide the second hole! I may sometimes need to far couple the tender, so I don't want to cut the drawbar short. I will be building a new drawbar to solve the problem. In the meantime the fireman will just have to jump the gap as the tender is back on the original far coupling hole. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] BLI M1 Alert Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:15:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <000701c4298f$0b1eda50$6401a8c0@ABBuchan> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Several people have noted that BLI did not provide a second hole in the drawbar for close coupling of the tender on layout with broad curves. = Like many others, I drilled one myself and have been running the loco = extensively for several months now. Last night the loco developed a short. Investigation indicated that the drawbar now extending under the tender, = was rubbing against the copper wiper on the first axle of the tender. Apparently the blackening of the drawbar provided enough insulation initially to prevent this, but as the drawbar continued to rub against = the wiper, eventually it wore away to bare metal and a short occurred. Now = I know why BLI did not provide the second hole! I may sometimes need to far couple the tender, so I don't want to cut = the drawbar short. I will be building a new drawbar to solve the problem. = In the meantime the fireman will just have to jump the gap as the tender is back on the original far coupling hole. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:48:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N8 underbody Hi All, Most models have the underbody painted or molded in black. I am painting some of my N8. Was the underbody and tool box really black? I was guessing and hoping that it is really a dirty and heavily weathered Freight Car Red. I have already painted the frame FCR, and can easily repaint them black. My B & W Builders photos are difficult to tell between the black and FCR. Does anyone have the real PRR paint diagrams? Would this have changed when the scheme was changed to Shadow Keystone? I have 2 more to do in SK. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N8 underbody Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:48:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Most models have the underbody painted or molded in black. I am painting = some of my N8. Was the underbody and tool box really black? I was guessing and hoping that it is really a dirty = and heavily weathered Freight Car Red. I have already painted the frame FCR, and can easily repaint them black. My B & = W Builders photos are difficult to tell between the black and FCR. Does anyone have the real PRR paint diagrams? = Would this have changed when the scheme was changed to Shadow Keystone? I have 2 more to do in SK. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net=20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N8 underbody Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:48:40 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Most models have the underbody painted or molded in black. I am painting = some of my N8. Was the underbody and tool box really black? I was guessing and hoping that it is really a dirty = and heavily weathered Freight Car Red. I have already painted the frame FCR, and can easily repaint them black. My B & = W Builders photos are difficult to tell between the black and FCR. Does anyone have the real PRR paint diagrams? = Would this have changed when the scheme was changed to Shadow Keystone? I have 2 more to do in SK. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net=20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1 Alert Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:27:42 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I insulated the truck screw on the front tender truck to eliminate shorts on the occasional vertical kink in track. I don't know why I assumed there was a reason this drawbar was metal. As I think about it, I can't see it serving any useful current carrying purpose. Given the pickup setup on loco and tender it also puzzles me why the loco frame is "live" anyway. Am I missing something? If not, Andy, your idea makes sense if I have any more trouble and I probably will if as I suspect I will want to shorten up the spacing on our 40 inch minimum radius curves. Maybe that supply of fiber Bowser drawbars will come in handy after all :-). Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" Several people have noted that BLI did not provide a second hole in the drawbar for close coupling of the tender on layout with broad curves. Like many others, I drilled one myself and have been running the loco extensively for several months now. Last night the loco developed a short. Investigation indicated that the drawbar now extending under the tender, was rubbing against the copper wiper on the first axle of the tender. Apparently the blackening of the drawbar provided enough insulation initially to prevent this, but as the drawbar continued to rub against the wiper, eventually it wore away to bare metal and a short occurred. Now I know why BLI did not provide the second hole! I may sometimes need to far couple the tender, so I don't want to cut the drawbar short. I will be building a new drawbar to solve the problem. In the meantime the fireman will just have to jump the gap as the tender is back on the original far coupling hole. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:46:23 -0700 From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] Subject: [STMFC] N8 underbody

Bill;

The Jan. 1953 painting = instructions call for the car to be painted Synthetic(Red) Freight Car Enamel (under = cover) or Ready-Mixed (Red) Freight Car Paint (not painted under cover); sides, = ends, and underframe. Asphaltum on = roof, including cupola. Gloss = Yellow Enamel to vertical handholds on corners and curved handholds on car = body at four corners. Interior = got P.O. Green Enamel on walls from floor to window sills, lockers, set frames, lower = bunks, table and sink (except tops), end doors and frames, bulkhead corner = posts to ceiling, and cupola seats, including armrests and sides to and including cupola = side window sills and safety rail. = Cream Enamel to interior above window sills including bottom of upper bunks = and the ceilings. Quick-drying Floor Enamel to = floors. NO PAINT to stainless steel = parts of aluminum window sashes!

=
The Dec '55 instructions (which supercede those above, and which were not superceded again until Sep = 1960), call for the same exterior and interior colors and application = coverage.    They got more = specific about coating the ENTIRE roof and cupola with Asphaltum. "Pool" cars are not covered in the instructions.

=
I think there are painting = instructions and lettering diagrams.

=
Needless to say, paint crews did = not always follow the instructions, but that is what the PRR = intended.

=
Elden

=
-----Original = Message-----
From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, May 14, = 2004 6:49 AM
To: Al Buchan; Ben Hom; = PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR Modeling; Steam Era Freight cars
Subject: [STMFC] N8 = underbody

Hi All,

Most models have the underbody painted = or molded in black. I am painting some of my N8. Was the underbody and = tool
box really black? I was guessing and = hoping that it is really a dirty and heavily weathered Freight Car Red. I = have
already painted the frame FCR, and can = easily repaint them black. My B & W Builders photos are difficult to = tell
between the black and FCR. Does anyone = have the real PRR paint diagrams? Would this have changed when the = scheme
was changed to Shadow Keystone? I have 2 = more to do in SK.

Please reply to billlane@comcast.net =

Thank You,
Bill Lane

Custom Brass Painting
http://www.lanestrains.com

Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S = Scale
The production for the REA Version has = begun
http://www.pennsysmodels.com

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in = 1957

Yahoo! Groups = Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT<= br>

Yahoo! Groups Links

·         To visit your = group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/gr= oup/STMFC/

·         To unsubscribe = from this group, send an email to:
= STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

·         Your use of Yahoo! = Groups is subject to the Yahoo! = Terms of Service.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C439C2.3A1446A4-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:20:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PR freight symbols From: Frederick Ripley From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] Attachments in our mail Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 14:55:49 -00 From: "Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc." Subject: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:26:30 -0700 From: rfkennedy.dsm@att.net [mailto:rfkennedy.dsm@att.net] Subject: RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions
Bob;
That's a good question, and one I do not necessarily = feel all that qualified to answer. However, the paint I remember = (and I do remember it) was a light green, kind of the color of a green = apple but even lighter. I would just take green and add white to = it until I got something in that range. And then again, the paint = I saw may have been terribly faded due to time. There were still PRR = cabins running around with this paint in them up into the = 70's.

Sorry I do not have better info for you at this time, = but the Paint Committee is working on it. Maybe others can pipe = in on this subject and give better advice.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: rfkennedy.dsm@att.net [mailto:rfkennedy.dsm@att.net] =
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 8:33 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc.; = 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com'; Al Buchan; Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR = Modeling
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting = Instructions

Hi Eldon,

In reference to to your message concerning interior = painting, in specific query, "Interior got P.O.Green Enamel on = walls" what model paint would be a good color to match the = interior green"?

Bob Kennedy

------_=_NextPart_001_01C439D0.362D22C8-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:51:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Elden, Bob, I too believe the "PO Green" was a pastel type color of apple green. We are restoring PRR N5c 477974 and under the interior light gray paint that CR applied is this light green color. Under that is remnants of Buff. Like Elden said, to get by until the proper mixture comes forth, any green and white will get it close. I would start with White and add BN Green to get a medium green color or vice versa of course.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:45:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Bill, Thanks to Elden & Jack Consoli, the entire text of the painting instructions are on my website... See http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PaintingInstructions.html Does anyone know if there were similar instructions for painting cars prior to 1953? Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. [mailto:elden.gatwood@tetratech.com] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 10:46 AM > To: 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com'; Al Buchan; Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR > Modeling > Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions > > > Bill; > The Jan. 1953 painting instructions call for the car to be painted > Synthetic(Red) Freight Car Enamel (under cover) or Ready-Mixed > (Red) Freight > Car Paint (not painted under cover); sides, ends, and underframe. > Asphaltum > on roof, including cupola. Gloss Yellow Enamel to vertical handholds on > corners and curved handholds on car body at four corners. > Interior got P.O. > Green Enamel on walls from floor to window sills, lockers, set > frames, lower > bunks, table and sink (except tops), end doors and frames, bulkhead corner > posts to ceiling, and cupola seats, including armrests and sides to and > including cupola side window sills and safety rail. Cream Enamel to > interior above window sills including bottom of upper bunks and the > ceilings. Quick-drying Floor Enamel to floors. NO PAINT to > stainless steel > parts of aluminum window sashes! > > The Dec '55 instructions (which supercede those above, and which were not > superceded again until Sep 1960), call for the same exterior and interior > colors and application coverage. They got more specific about > coating the > ENTIRE roof and cupola with Asphaltum. "Pool" cars are not covered in the > instructions. > > I think there are painting instructions and lettering diagrams. > > Needless to say, paint crews did not always follow the instructions, but > that is what the PRR intended. > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 6:49 AM > To: Al Buchan; Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR Modeling; Steam Era Freight > cars > Subject: [STMFC] N8 underbody > > Hi All, > > Most models have the underbody painted or molded in black. I am painting > some of my N8. Was the underbody and tool > box really black? I was guessing and hoping that it is really a dirty and > heavily weathered Freight Car Red. I have > already painted the frame FCR, and can easily repaint them black. My B & W > Builders photos are difficult to tell > between the black and FCR. Does anyone have the real PRR paint diagrams? > Would this have changed when the scheme > was changed to Shadow Keystone? I have 2 more to do in SK. > > Please reply to billlane@comcast.net > > Thank You, > Bill Lane > > Custom Brass Painting > http://www.lanestrains.com > > Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale > The production for the REA Version has begun > http://www.pennsysmodels.com > > Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:51:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Elden, Bob, I too believe the "PO Green" was a pastel type color of apple green. We are restoring PRR N5c 477974 and under the interior light gray paint that CR applied is this light green color. Under that is remnants of Buff. Like Elden said, to get by until the proper mixture comes forth, any green and white will get it close. I would start with White and add BN Green to get a medium green color or vice versa of course.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:45:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5A6EB43BF868D5118B51000347713BC708BC78D1@TTMSX1> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-PMX-Version: 4.6.0.99824, Antispam-Core: 4.6.0.97340, Antispam-Data: 2004.5.13.100722 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=XXX, Probability=30%, Report='FORGED_MUA_OIMO 2.899, ONLY_COST 0.297, CLICK_BELOW 0.089, MAILTO_WITH_SUBJ 0.048, __EVITE_CTYPE 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __HAS_X_PRIORITY 0, __HAS_MSMAIL_PRI 0, __OIMO_MUA 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __ANY_OUTLOOK_MUA 0, __HAS_OUTLOOK_IN_MAILER 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __HAS_MIMEOLE 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __NEW_DOMAIN_EXTENSIONS_2 0, __CLICK_BELOW 0, __PORN_PHRASE_15_0 0, TO_BE_REMOVED_REPLY 0.000, __HAS_MSGID 0, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, IN_REP_TO 0, __MIME_VERSION 0' Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill, Thanks to Elden & Jack Consoli, the entire text of the painting instructions are on my website... See http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PaintingInstructions.html Does anyone know if there were similar instructions for painting cars prior to 1953? Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. [mailto:elden.gatwood@tetratech.com] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 10:46 AM > To: 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com'; Al Buchan; Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR > Modeling > Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions > > > Bill; > The Jan. 1953 painting instructions call for the car to be painted > Synthetic(Red) Freight Car Enamel (under cover) or Ready-Mixed > (Red) Freight > Car Paint (not painted under cover); sides, ends, and underframe. > Asphaltum > on roof, including cupola. Gloss Yellow Enamel to vertical handholds on > corners and curved handholds on car body at four corners. > Interior got P.O. > Green Enamel on walls from floor to window sills, lockers, set > frames, lower > bunks, table and sink (except tops), end doors and frames, bulkhead corner > posts to ceiling, and cupola seats, including armrests and sides to and > including cupola side window sills and safety rail. Cream Enamel to > interior above window sills including bottom of upper bunks and the > ceilings. Quick-drying Floor Enamel to floors. NO PAINT to > stainless steel > parts of aluminum window sashes! > > The Dec '55 instructions (which supercede those above, and which were not > superceded again until Sep 1960), call for the same exterior and interior > colors and application coverage. They got more specific about > coating the > ENTIRE roof and cupola with Asphaltum. "Pool" cars are not covered in the > instructions. > > I think there are painting instructions and lettering diagrams. > > Needless to say, paint crews did not always follow the instructions, but > that is what the PRR intended. > > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@comcast.net] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 6:49 AM > To: Al Buchan; Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR Modeling; Steam Era Freight > cars > Subject: [STMFC] N8 underbody > > Hi All, > > Most models have the underbody painted or molded in black. I am painting > some of my N8. Was the underbody and tool > box really black? I was guessing and hoping that it is really a dirty and > heavily weathered Freight Car Red. I have > already painted the frame FCR, and can easily repaint them black. My B & W > Builders photos are difficult to tell > between the black and FCR. Does anyone have the real PRR paint diagrams? > Would this have changed when the scheme > was changed to Shadow Keystone? I have 2 more to do in SK. > > Please reply to billlane@comcast.net > > Thank You, > Bill Lane > > Custom Brass Painting > http://www.lanestrains.com > > Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale > The production for the REA Version has begun > http://www.pennsysmodels.com > > Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/9MtolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better reproduce the PRR in miniature ! Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] FW: Interior Paint Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:24:07 -0400 From: Burnley, Charles Subject: Interior Paint From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:02:13 -0400 RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting InstructionsHi ALL,=20 Sometimes it pays to look in the other paint rack. The = following is a suggestion: Testors Model Master series of paints has = several military, or, light greens that work well for interior colors. = FWIW; has anyone else tried the Italian Army Brown for the exterior of a = cabin car? Did several myself, and with weathering they have a nice = subtle aged look. Hope this helps. Fred in Vt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc.=20 To: 'rfkennedy.dsm@att.net' ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com=20 Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. ; 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com' ; Al Buchan ; = Ben Hom ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk ; PRR Modeling=20 Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 12:26 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Bob;=20 That's a good question, and one I do not necessarily feel all that = qualified to answer. However, the paint I remember (and I do remember = it) was a light green, kind of the color of a green apple but even = lighter. I would just take green and add white to it until I got = something in that range. And then again, the paint I saw may have been = terribly faded due to time. There were still PRR cabins running around = with this paint in them up into the 70's. Sorry I do not have better info for you at this time, but the Paint = Committee is working on it. Maybe others can pipe in on this subject = and give better advice. Elden=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: rfkennedy.dsm@att.net [mailto:rfkennedy.dsm@att.net]=20 Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 8:33 AM=20 To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com=20 Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc.; 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com'; Al Buchan; = Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR Modeling=20 Subject: RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions=20 Hi Eldon,=20 In reference to to your message concerning interior painting, in = specific query, "Interior got P.O.Green Enamel on walls" what model = paint would be a good color to match the interior green"? Bob Kennedy=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C439C4.70AA2AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions
Hi ALL,

          = Sometimes it pays=20 to look in the other paint rack. The following is a suggestion: Testors = Model=20 Master series of paints has several military, or, light greens that work = well=20 for interior colors. FWIW; has anyone else tried the Italian Army Brown = for the=20 exterior of a cabin car? Did several myself, and with weathering they = have a=20 nice subtle aged look. Hope this helps.    Fred in=20 Vt

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, = Inc.=20

To: 'rfkennedy.dsm@att.net' ; = STMFC@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, = Inc. ; 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com' ; = Al = Buchan=20 ; Ben Hom ; = PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk ; PRR Modeling

Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 = 12:26 PM

Subject: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] = Cabin Painting=20 Instructions

Bob;
That's a good = question, and one I=20 do not necessarily feel all that qualified to answer. However, = the paint=20 I remember (and I do remember it) was a light green, kind of the color = of a=20 green apple but even lighter. I would just take green and add = white to=20 it until I got something in that range. And then again, the = paint I saw=20 may have been terribly faded due to time. There were still PRR cabins = running=20 around with this paint in them up into the 70's.

Sorry I do not have better info for you at this = time, but the=20 Paint Committee is working on it. Maybe others can pipe in on = this=20 subject and give better advice.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: rfkennedy.dsm@att.net [mailto:rfkennedy.dsm@att.net]=20
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 8:33 AM =
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com =
Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc.; 'STMFC@yahoogroups.com'; = Al Buchan;=20 Ben Hom; PRR Fax; PRR Talk; PRR Modeling
Subject: RE:=20 [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions

Hi Eldon,

In reference to to your message concerning interior = painting,=20 in specific query, "Interior got P.O.Green Enamel on walls" what model = paint=20 would be a good color to match the interior green"?

Bob Kennedy =

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C439C4.70AA2AB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:54:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 Hi All, Does anyone know of antenna kits for the new Bowser N8's? Thanks, Jerry S. --part1_19e.243a1a67.2dd67de9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Hi All,
Does anyone know of antenna kits for the new Bowser N8's?
Thanks,
     Jerry S. --part1_19e.243a1a67.2dd67de9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser N8 Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:21:05 -0400 From: "Owens, David" I emailed Bowser about this a couple of weeks back. THey have no plans = to do a set specifically for the N8 and suggested the N5/N5C kit. Dave Owens =20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = ARRJERRY@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:54 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 Hi All, Does anyone know of antenna kits for the new Bowser N8's? Thanks, Jerry S.=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C439F0.FBE11A77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I=20 emailed Bowser about this a couple of weeks back. THey have no plans to = do a set=20 specifically for the N8 and suggested the N5/N5C = kit.

Dave=20 Owens

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = ARRJERRY@aol.com
Sent:=20 Friday, May 14, 2004 3:54 PM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Bowser = N8

Hi All,
Does anyone know of antenna kits for the new = Bowser=20 N8's?
Thanks,
     Jerry S.=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C439F0.FBE11A77-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Raymond E. Cain, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N8 Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:13:45 -0400 For what it's worth, yes there are. I saw such a "kit" on eBay about six = months ago; however, I did not pay attention to the manufacturer. Since = I have several of Bowser's N8 kits, it would have made sense to bid on = it--alas, i didn't. I will search through my Walther's catalog to see if = I spot them. If they are available through this source, I will let you = know. Ray ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ARRJERRY@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:54 PM Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 Hi All, Does anyone know of antenna kits for the new Bowser N8's? Thanks, Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C439CE.6E9DFB70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
For what it's worth, yes there are. I = saw such a=20 "kit" on eBay about six months ago; however, I did not pay attention to = the=20 manufacturer. Since I have several of Bowser's N8 kits, it would have = made sense=20 to bid on it--alas, i didn't. I will search through my Walther's catalog = to see=20 if I spot them. If they are available through this source, I will let = you=20 know.

Ray

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ARRJERRY@aol.com=20

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:54 = PM

Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8

Hi All,
Does anyone know of = antenna kits for=20 the new Bowser N8's?
Thanks,
     Jerry = S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C439CE.6E9DFB70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N8 Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:10:37 -0500 There are drill guide dimples on the roof underside for the usual masts = and receivers. Unless there is something special about N8 masts I don't = know about, I don't see why a separate kit from the N5b/N5c kit is = needed. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Owens, David=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:21 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser N8 I emailed Bowser about this a couple of weeks back. THey have no plans = to do a set specifically for the N8 and suggested the N5/N5C kit. Dave Owens -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = ARRJERRY@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:54 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 Hi All, Does anyone know of antenna kits for the new Bowser N8's? Thanks, Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C439D6.605EB2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
There are drill guide dimples on the = roof underside=20 for the usual masts and receivers. Unless there is something special = about N8=20 masts I don't know about, I don't see why a separate kit from the = N5b/N5c kit is=20 needed.

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Owens, David=20

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 3:21 = PM

Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser = N8

I=20 emailed Bowser about this a couple of weeks back. THey have no plans = to do a=20 set specifically for the N8 and suggested the N5/N5C = kit.

Dave=20 Owens

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ARRJERRY@aol.com
Sent: = Friday,=20 May 14, 2004 3:54 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:=20 [PRR] Bowser N8

Hi = All,
Does anyone know=20 of antenna kits for the new Bowser=20 N8's?
Thanks,
     Jerry S.=20
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C439D6.605EB2E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:47:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N8 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob, The overall profile of the N8 Trainphone masts are different then that of the other Cabin class masts. The result may put the height too high. Not sure as I didn't bother looking into it as I knew the profile was wrong. Another possibilty may be to use those cast mast from Gloor Craft. Not perfect either but a better choice I believe. Nothing wrong with the Cal Scale Receiver Coils though......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:58:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N8 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I think the N8 mast are farther apart along the roof compared to an N5C. I don't have my cabin car book in front of me but I think the N8 cabin is a few feet longer that the N5C. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Gondola decals Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 20:04:16 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am in need of 2 sets of O Scale PRR gondola circle keystone decals. I = am doing a G26. I would prefer Middle Division if possible, but will settle for Champ. Please reply to = billlane@comcast.net with the how much and send to info. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:57:03 -0500 RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting InstructionsOkay gize Now you got my interest. How about going to craft stores and looking for: Testor's little 1/4 oz bottles at 99=A2. I found some for 88=A2 at a = local "Hobby Lobby". Unfortunately, at the local hobby shop, they were = $1.19. Now you tell me why I should not save 20=A2 a bottle. Buying a = dozen at a time. And as for color, why don't you simply ask Greg Martin. Hey Greg - what = paint should these gize use for the interior of the cabins? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C439ED.A0662E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions
Okay gize

Now you got my interest.

How about going to craft stores and looking=20 for:

Testor's little 1/4 oz bottles at = 99=A2. I found=20 some for 88=A2 at a local "Hobby Lobby". Unfortunately, at the = local hobby=20 shop, they were $1.19. Now you tell me why I should not save = 20=A2 a=20 bottle. Buying a dozen at a time.

And as for color, why don't you simply ask = Greg=20 Martin. Hey Greg - what paint should these gize use for the = interior of=20 the cabins?

Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist, Proud = SPF
PRRTHS=20 #1204

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus=20 Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: = 6.0.677 /=20 Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: = 05/04/2004
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C439ED.A0662E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 03:05:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Morgan writes: > RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Okay gize>=20 >=20 > Now you got my interest. >=20 > How about going to craft stores and looking for: >=20 > Testors little =BC oz bottles at 99=A2. I found some for 88=A2 at a local= "Hobby=20 > Lobby." Unfortunately, at the local hobby shop, they were $1.19. Now you= =20 > tell me why I should not save 20=A2 a bottle. Buying a dozen at a time. >=20 > And as for color, why don't you simply ask Greg Martin. Hey Greg - what=20 > paint should these Gize use for the interior of the cabins? >=20 > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF > PRRTHS #1204 Okay, Okay, I have been following this thread and I guess I will throw in my= =20 2=A2 worth... I use the very technical term for this color as it was found in other places= ,=20 like the interiors of many EMD E and F units... I call it "machine green" as= =20 it was also found on many era painted pieces of machinery ... kinda sorta...= =20 At one time I made a bottle of this color and used it on the interior of my=20 Bowser K4. I would try a mixture of Testors interior green (the same color t= hat=20 was used on the interior color of many USAAF WW II aircraft) and white, even= =20 quantities of each. Available in both the =BC oz. bottles and the Model Mast= ers=20 line as well. Use a Testors "eye dropper" to make the mix on a pallet first.= =20 I like the small bottles because if I screw up I haven't lost much and they=20 are available nearly everywhere. Then once mixed, add green or white to tas= te=20 ... serve at room temperature and thin with only Testors Spray Paint thinner= . =20 You won't be far off.=20 Just as a spin I always though it funny that the PRR E units had gray=20 interiors (with original DGLE exteriors and later Tuscan exteriors) and the=20= NYC units=20 had beige interior with gray exteriors ... go figure... I though it should=20 have been the other way around.=20 Greg Martin =20 Greg Martin=20 --part1_1d4.219283bf.2dd71b56_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Morgan writes:

RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Inst= ructions

Okay gize

Now you got my interest.

How about going to craft stores and looking for:

Testors little =BC oz bottles at 99=A2. I found some for 88=A2 at a lo= cal "Hobby Lobby." Unfortunately, at the local hobby shop, they were $= 1.19. Now you tell me why I should not save 20=A2 a bottle. Buyi= ng a dozen at a time.

And as for color, why don't you simply ask Greg Martin. Hey Greg - wha= t paint should these Gize use for the interior of the cabins?

Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF
PRRTHS #1204

Okay, Okay, I have been following this thread and I guess I will throw in my= 2=A2 worth...

I use the very technical term for this color as it was found in other places= , like the interiors of many EMD E and F units... I call it "machine green"=20= as it was also found on many era painted pieces of machinery ... kinda sorta= ...

At one time I made a bottle of this color and used it on the interior of my=20= Bowser K4. I would try a mixture of Testors interior green (the same color t= hat was used on the interior color of many USAAF WW II aircraft) and white,=20= even quantities of each. Available in both the =BC oz. bottles and the Model= Masters line as well. Use a Testors "eye dropper" to make the mix on a pall= et first. I like the small bottles because if I screw up I haven't los= t much and they are available nearly everywhere. Then once mixed, add=20= green or white to taste ... serve at room temperature and thin with only Tes= tors Spray Paint thinner. You won't be far off.

Just as a spin I always though it funny that the PRR E units had gray interi= ors (with original DGLE exteriors and later Tuscan exteriors) and the NYC un= its had beige interior with gray exteriors ... go figure... I though it shou= ld have been the other way around.

Greg Martin

Greg Martin --part1_1d4.219283bf.2dd71b56_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 09:10:33 -0500 RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting InstructionsFred in Vt. wrote:=20 " Sometimes it pays to look in the other paint rack. The = following is a suggestion: Testors Model Master series of paints has = several military, or, light greens that work well for interior colors. = FWIW; has anyone else tried the Italian Army Brown for the exterior of a = cabin car? Did several myself, and with weathering they have a nice = subtle aged look. Hope this helps." =20 I second that. I have found a great color to paint wheel sets. Look = for Testors Model Master No. 2096 "P Schokoladenbraum '43" This color = was used by Germany in WW 2 for aircraft and armor. I think it is a = great color for wheel sets, rails and a base for weathering motive power = or rolling stock. Check it out. Ted=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C43A5C.7A797940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions

Fred in Vt. wrote:

         " = Sometimes it=20 pays to look in the other paint rack. The following is a suggestion: = Testors=20 Model Master series of paints has several military, or, light greens = that work=20 well for interior colors. FWIW; has anyone else tried the Italian Army = Brown=20 for the exterior of a cabin car? Did several myself, and with = weathering they=20 have a nice subtle aged look. Hope this=20 helps."

I second that. I have found a great color to=20 paint wheel sets. Look for Testors Model Master No. 2096 "P=20 Schokoladenbraum '43" This color was used by Germany in WW=20 2 for aircraft and armor. I think it is a great color for = wheel=20 sets, rails and a base for weathering motive power or rolling=20 stock. Check it out.

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0066_01C43A5C.7A797940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:32:34 -0500 RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting InstructionsSo now you know why I chimed in = about going to different stores. You are suggesting "don't look in a = box", but to look outside the box. I'm simply adding to that by saying = look outside the store in another type store. Also, don't hesitate to = go where the women go, "How about ceramic shows" and such. Some of = those places have tremendous goodies for us modelers. And I hope you've seen Greg's reply about cabin car interior paint by = now. I concur completely with him about using smaller jars. Of course, = you O scalers must ultimately buy larger jars LOL but for the initial = mixing, the smaller ones offer a cheaper way to find the right mix. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ted Andrews=20 To: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. ; rfkennedy.dsm@att.net ; = STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; Fred in Vt.=20 Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; Al Buchan ; = Ben Hom ; PRR Fax ; PRR Talk ; PRR Modeling=20 Sent: Saturday, 15 May, 2004 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions Fred in Vt. wrote:=20 " Sometimes it pays to look in the other paint rack. The = following is a suggestion: Testors Model Master series of paints has = several military, or, light greens that work well for interior colors. = FWIW; has anyone else tried the Italian Army Brown for the exterior of a = cabin car? Did several myself, and with weathering they have a nice = subtle aged look. Hope this helps." =20 I second that. I have found a great color to paint wheel sets. Look = for Testors Model Master No. 2096 "P Schokoladenbraum '43" This color = was used by Germany in WW 2 for aircraft and armor. I think it is a = great color for wheel sets, rails and a base for weathering motive power = or rolling stock. Check it out. Ted=20 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date: 05/04/2004 ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01C43A78.B2ABB320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [STMFC] Cabin Painting Instructions
So now you know why I = chimed in about=20 going to different stores. You are suggesting "don't look in a = box", but=20 to look outside the box. I'm simply adding to that by saying look = outside=20 the store in another type store. Also, don't hesitate to go where = the=20 women go, "How about ceramic shows" and such. Some of those places = have=20 tremendous goodies for us modelers.

And I hope you've seen = Greg's reply=20 about cabin car interior paint by now. I concur completely with = him about=20 using smaller jars. Of course, you O scalers must ultimately buy = larger=20 jars LOL but for the initial mixing, the smaller ones offer a cheaper = way to=20 find the right mix.

Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist,=20 Proud SPF
PRRTHS #1204

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ted = Andrews=20

To: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, = Inc. ; rfkennedy.dsm@att.net ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; Fred in = Vt.

Cc: Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, = Inc. ; STMFC@yahoogroups.com ; Al = Buchan=20 ; Ben Hom ; = PRR = Fax ; PRR = Talk ; PRR Modeling

Sent: Saturday, 15 May, 2004 = 9:10=20 AM

Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [STMFC] = Cabin=20 Painting Instructions

Fred in Vt. wrote:

         " = Sometimes it=20 pays to look in the other paint rack. The following is a suggestion: = Testors=20 Model Master series of paints has several military, or, light greens = that=20 work well for interior colors. FWIW; has anyone else tried the = Italian Army=20 Brown for the exterior of a cabin car? Did several myself, and with=20 weathering they have a nice subtle aged look. Hope this=20 helps."

I second that. I have found a great color to = paint wheel sets. Look for Testors Model Master No. 2096 "P=20 Schokoladenbraum '43" This color was used by Germany in WW=20 2 for aircraft and armor. I think it is a great color for = wheel=20 sets, rails and a base for weathering motive power or rolling=20 stock. Check it out.

Ted

---
Outgoing = mail is=20 certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: = 6.0.677 / Virus Database: 439 - Release Date:=20 05/04/2004
------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01C43A78.B2ABB320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 23:49:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] MTH PS 2.0 From: Dominic Mazoch From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 07:29:35 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: X25 > From: "Greg Ritacco" > Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 > > Hi group, > Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams > of ARE? Thanks in advance. > Greg Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in 1925, so they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 07:29:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: X25 > From: "Greg Ritacco" > Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700 > > Hi group, > Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams > of ARE? Thanks in advance. > Greg Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in 1925, so they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_11.298228b9.2dd8aa9f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32=20= AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: X25
From: "Greg Ritacco" <gregr@surewest.net>
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:32:22 -0700

Hi group,
Does anyone know of a photo of an X25 in express service, either Adams
of ARE? Thanks in advance.
Greg

Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the=20= Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in 192= 5, so they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside.<= BR>
Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_11.298228b9.2dd8aa9f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Siller" Subject: [PRR] Genesis EF15s Are Amazing Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:33:47 -0400 I just picked up my EF15s and want to take a moment to thank Greg Martin = for all of hard work he has done with Athearn to make the Genesis PRR F3s = the closest-to-prototype plastic models I have seen yet. I thought the F7s = were going to be tough to beat but the F3s are even better. It's nice to see = the correct builders plates, trust plates and placement of the Keystone on = the nose door for each unit. It's not often you get a manufacturer to adjust = the paint scheme for each individual road number. The single horn and = painted grabs mean less work for me when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you = and please keep up the great work. =20 Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits to start adding the extra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 6?..... = With all of the new motive power and rolling stock coming out, it's a great = time to be a Pennsy modeler. =20 Thanks, Rick ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C43B9E.3FAEAC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

I just picked up my EF15s and want to take a moment = to thank Greg Martin for all of hard work he has done with Athearn to make the = Genesis PRR F3s the closest-to-prototype plastic models I have seen yet. I thought the F7s were going to be tough to beat but the F3s are even better. It’s nice to see the correct builders plates, trust = plates and placement of the Keystone on the nose door for each unit. It’s = not often you get a manufacturer to adjust the paint scheme for each = individual road number. The single horn and painted grabs mean less work for me = when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you and please keep up the great = work.

Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits = to start adding the extra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive = Pictorial Vol. 6?..... With all of the new motive power and rolling stock coming = out, it’s a great time to be a Pennsy modeler.

Thanks, Rick

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C43B9E.3FAEAC20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:29:51 -0400 From: RamblingReck Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting Guys, At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website. http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable. John Ryan --------------060008040505010109020409 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Guys,

At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website.

http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm

Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable.

John Ryan
--------------060008040505010109020409-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:29:51 -0400 From: RamblingReck Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting Guys, At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website. http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable. John Ryan --------------060008040505010109020409 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Guys,

At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my website.

http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm

Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and nonappealable.

John Ryan
--------------060008040505010109020409-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Caliciotti" Subject: [PRR] sears roebuck warehouse Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 04:27:42 +0000 Subject: RE: [PRR] sears roebuck warehouse Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 01:06:47 -0400 From: "Owens, David" I believe the whole complex was demolished back in the late 80s. =20 Dave Owens -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam = Caliciotti Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:28 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] sears roebuck warehouse Anyone know if the Sears Roebuck and Co. warehouse on the Oxford Road = branch still standing? _____ =20 Best Restaurant Giveaway = Ever! Vote for your favorites for a chance to win $1 million! = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43C95.EBD93441 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I=20 believe the whole complex was demolished back in the late=20 80s.

Dave=20 Owens

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam = Caliciotti
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 18, 2004 12:28 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] sears roebuck=20 warehouse

Anyone know if the Sears Roebuck and Co. = warehouse on=20 the Oxford Road branch still standing?

Best Restaurant = Giveaway=20 Ever! Vote for your favorites for a chance to win $1 million!=20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43C95.EBD93441-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 01:54:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis EF15s Are Amazing Rick writes: > I just picked up my EF15s and want to take a moment to thank Greg Martin > for all of hard work he has done with Athearn to make the Genesis PRR F3s the > closest-to-prototype plastic models I have seen yet. I thought the F7s were > going to be tough to beat but the F3s are even better. It's nice to see the > correct builders plates, trust plates and placement of the Keystone on the > nose door for each unit. It's not often you get a manufacturer to adjust the > paint scheme for each individual road number. The single horn and painted grabs > mean less work for me when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you and please > keep up the great work. > > Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits to start adding the > extra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 6?..... With all > of the new motive power and rolling stock coming out, it's a great time to be > a Pennsy modeler. > Thanks, Rick Rick and all... All to often we take it upon ourselves to believe that one person is responsible for the success of a project like this recent Athearn/Genesis release of the EF15s ... not so, I was but a vehicle as there were others involved and no matter how small a part they had, the success would have been less if not for them. Let me share with you who I can tell you was also involved and deserve real thanks. Our own: Gary Mittner oversaw this project from day one ... thank Gary for following along and his input and final review... Mark Kerlick advised again as well ... that damn single horn, thank (Picky) Mark! Jack Consoli who jumped in to help with specific details at the eleventh hour ... thank Jack! Al Buchan watched closely over my/our shoulder ... thanks Boss! And the fantastic folks at Athearn for being patient and willing to digest my scribbles and doodles... They were great at doing the extras I ask for, like the nose Keystone changes and the single horn ... their first attempt at this ... now proven it opens the doors for other roads in the future with single horns. So you see sometimes the folks behind the scenes remain quiet but deserve the credit as well. This wasn't about me it was about them... Now we just might get our EH15's PRR F 3 "snappers" (helpers) in a very limited edition if we respond as well to this as we did to the F7's and then the ultimate F 7! Greg Martin --part1_62.3e6d4119.2ddaff20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Rick writes:

I just picked up my EF15s and=20= want to take a moment to thank Greg Martin for all of hard work he has done=20= with Athearn to make the Genesis PRR F3s the closest-to-prototype plastic mo= dels I have seen yet. I thought the F7s were going to be tough to beat= but the F3s are even better. It's nice to see the correct builders pl= ates, trust plates and placement of the Keystone on the nose door for each u= nit. It's not often you get a manufacturer to adjust the paint scheme for ea= ch individual road number. The single horn and painted grabs mean less work=20= for me when compared to the F7s. Greg, thank you and please keep up th= e great work.

Time to get out the trainphone masts and drill bits to start adding the ext= ra grabs. Now where is my Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 6?.....&nbs= p; With all of the new motive power and rolling stock coming out, it's a gre= at time to be a Pennsy modeler.

Thanks, Rick

Rick and all...

All to often we take it upon ourselves to believe that one person is respons= ible for the success of a project like this recent Athearn/Genesis release o= f the EF15s ... not so, I was but a vehicle as there were others involved an= d no matter how small a part they had, the success would have been less if n= ot for them. Let me share with you who I can tell you was also involved and=20= deserve real thanks.

Our own:

Gary Mittner oversaw this project from day one ... thank Gary for following=20= along and his input and final review...
Mark Kerlick advised again as well ... that damn single horn, thank (Picky)=20= Mark!
Jack Consoli who jumped in to help with specific details at the eleventh hou= r ... thank Jack!
Al Buchan watched closely over my/our shoulder ... thanks Boss!

And the fantastic folks at Athearn for being patient and willing to digest m= y scribbles and doodles... They were great at doing the extras I ask for, li= ke the nose Keystone changes and the single horn ... their first attempt at=20= this ... now proven it opens the doors for other roads in the future with si= ngle horns.

So you see sometimes the folks behind the scenes remain quiet but deserve th= e credit as well. This wasn't about me it was about them...

Now we just might get our EH15's PRR F 3 "snappers" (helpers) in a very limi= ted edition if we respond as well to this as we did to the F7's and then the= ultimate F 7!

Greg Martin --part1_62.3e6d4119.2ddaff20_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:32:57 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/16/04 2:40:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes: > >In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the > >Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in > >1925, so > >they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. > > According to the ORER numbers in Westerfield's X25 info sheet, 125 cars > remained as of 2/30 and one car soldiered on in the 6/34 and 1/40 ORERs. > Rob Schoenberg's web site also shows the 11 X25 number series s in > "passenger service" , but doesn't indicate numbers in service. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > Oops, gentlemen, My answer was from my notes. On review of the March 1983 Keystone article by Ian Fischer, we can see: 1. a footnote that says that by June 1926, the 823 cars were returned to freight service. OTOH, the roster of "X25 Express Cars" just above that footnote shows (with Bruce's data added) that 4-digit passenger numbers were still listed as follows: May 1917 158 cars Jan 1923 834 " Jan 1928 306 " Feb 1930 125 " Oct 1931 72 " June 1934 1 car July 1936 1 " Jan 1940 1 " Notice that nowhere in all this is firm info available on which specific freight numbers these cars came from. However, it seems pretty clear that the 10 car series containing 2404 (and incidentally owned by WNY&P) was likely out of the 93101-93441 series, and were back in freight service by Jan 1928. It's also interesting to see that none of the X25 BX's seem to have been from Lines West's X25 number series. I wonder if that's also true for the X29 BX's when they were converted? IIRC, yes, but it can certainly be argued that, by that time, the distinction of car numbers (500,000 and up) that once divided Lines West from East was fading. When did Adams merge to form American Railway Express? That means we have more questions to research: 1. Did any X25 BX's ever carry the ARE markings? 2. Did any X29 BX's ever carry the Adams markings? A footnote: 9 out of 10 fans call these "Railway Express Agency" boxcars without really thinking about it, because the REA stencil was so visible on X29 cars painted in express box service in the 40's and 50's. However, as we know, these cars were not owned by REA, nor were they used exclusively by REA. In fact, they were heavily used for storage mail, under contracts and tariffs with the US Post Office. Instead, the stencil had the same status as the REA markings on many/most other storage mail cars/compartments of cars (think baggages, and combines). To me, "REA" (or more properly "CK-REA") is a lettering scheme that's a variant of CK (Circle Keystone) and was in use from 1941 to 1952 or so. Thus, I prefer more generally to term these express box cars "X29 BX" etc., after the AAR Mechanical Code for boxcars equipped for passenger express service. In rosters I think you'll find BX used with appropriate X25 and X29 cars, and of course all 10 X42. Other roads had BX versions as well; see for example RP Cyc vol. 6, 7, and 8 for much more on these cars and their usage. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:32:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X25 BX photo In a message dated 5/16/04 2:40:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes: > >In a message dated 5/13/04 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > >Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to the > >Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in > >1925, so > >they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside. > > According to the ORER numbers in Westerfield's X25 info sheet, 125 cars > remained as of 2/30 and one car soldiered on in the 6/34 and 1/40 ORERs. > Rob Schoenberg's web site also shows the 11 X25 number series s in > "passenger service" , but doesn't indicate numbers in service. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce Smith > Auburn, AL > Oops, gentlemen, My answer was from my notes. On review of the March 1983 Keystone article by Ian Fischer, we can see: 1. a footnote that says that by June 1926, the 823 cars were returned to freight service. OTOH, the roster of "X25 Express Cars" just above that footnote shows (with Bruce's data added) that 4-digit passenger numbers were still listed as follows: May 1917 158 cars Jan 1923 834 " Jan 1928 306 " Feb 1930 125 " Oct 1931 72 " June 1934 1 car July 1936 1 " Jan 1940 1 " Notice that nowhere in all this is firm info available on which specific freight numbers these cars came from. However, it seems pretty clear that the 10 car series containing 2404 (and incidentally owned by WNY&P) was likely out of the 93101-93441 series, and were back in freight service by Jan 1928. It's also interesting to see that none of the X25 BX's seem to have been from Lines West's X25 number series. I wonder if that's also true for the X29 BX's when they were converted? IIRC, yes, but it can certainly be argued that, by that time, the distinction of car numbers (500,000 and up) that once divided Lines West from East was fading. When did Adams merge to form American Railway Express? That means we have more questions to research: 1. Did any X25 BX's ever carry the ARE markings? 2. Did any X29 BX's ever carry the Adams markings? A footnote: 9 out of 10 fans call these "Railway Express Agency" boxcars without really thinking about it, because the REA stencil was so visible on X29 cars painted in express box service in the 40's and 50's. However, as we know, these cars were not owned by REA, nor were they used exclusively by REA. In fact, they were heavily used for storage mail, under contracts and tariffs with the US Post Office. Instead, the stencil had the same status as the REA markings on many/most other storage mail cars/compartments of cars (think baggages, and combines). To me, "REA" (or more properly "CK-REA") is a lettering scheme that's a variant of CK (Circle Keystone) and was in use from 1941 to 1952 or so. Thus, I prefer more generally to term these express box cars "X29 BX" etc., after the AAR Mechanical Code for boxcars equipped for passenger express service. In rosters I think you'll find BX used with appropriate X25 and X29 cars, and of course all 10 X42. Other roads had BX versions as well; see for example RP Cyc vol. 6, 7, and 8 for much more on these cars and their usage. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_191.2925a5c9.2ddb4e69_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/16/04 2:40:14=20= PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu writes:

>In a message dated 5/13/04=20= 1:12:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:
>Scarce, but see PRR 2404 in RPCyc Volume 8, page 14. According to=20= the
>Keystone (1st qtr 1983), these cars were returned to the freight pool in=
>1925, so
>they could have only carried these markings 1916-1925 at the outside.
According to the ORER numbers in Westerfield's X25 info sheet, 125 cars
remained as of 2/30 and one car soldiered on in the 6/34 and 1/40 ORERs. Rob Schoenberg's web site also shows the 11 X25 number series s in
"passenger service" , but doesn't indicate numbers in service.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

Oops, gentlemen,

My answer was from my notes. On review of the March 1983 Keystone arti= cle by Ian Fischer, we can see:
1. a footnote that says that by June 1926, the 823 cars were returned to fre= ight service. OTOH, the roster of "X25 Express Cars" just above that f= ootnote shows (with Bruce's data added) that 4-digit passenger numbers were=20= still listed as follows:
May 1917    158 cars
Jan 1923      834 "
Jan 1928      306 "
Feb 1930     125 "
Oct 1931       72 "
June 1934       1 car    &= nbsp;
July 1936        1 "
Jan 1940         1 "

Notice that nowhere in all this is firm info available on which specific fre= ight numbers these cars came from.

However, it seems pretty clear that the 10 car series containing 2404 (and i= ncidentally owned by WNY&P) was likely out of the 93101-93441 series, an= d were back in freight service by Jan 1928.

It's also interesting to see that none of the X25 BX's seem to have been fro= m Lines West's X25 number series. I wonder if that's also true for the= X29 BX's when they were converted? IIRC, yes, but it can certainly be= argued that, by that time, the distinction of car numbers (500,000 and up)=20= that once divided Lines West from East was fading.

When did Adams merge to form American Railway Express? That means we h= ave more questions to research:
1. Did any X25 BX's ever carry the ARE markings?
2. Did any X29 BX's ever carry the Adams markings?

A footnote: 9 out of 10 fans call these "Railway Express Agency" boxcars wit= hout really thinking about it, because the REA stencil was so visible on X29= cars painted in express box service in the 40's and 50's. However, as= we know, these cars were not owned by REA, nor were they used exclusively b= y REA. In fact, they were heavily used for storage mail, under contrac= ts and tariffs with the US Post Office.

Instead, the stencil had the same status as the REA markings on many/most ot= her storage mail cars/compartments of cars (think baggages, and combines).&n= bsp; To me, "REA" (or more properly "CK-REA") is a lettering scheme that's a= variant of CK (Circle Keystone) and was in use from 1941 to 1952 or so.

Thus, I prefer more generally to term these express box cars "X29 BX" etc.,=20= after the AAR Mechanical Code for boxcars equipped for passenger express ser= vice. In rosters I think you'll find BX used with appropriate X25 and=20= X29 cars, and of course all 10 X42.

Other roads had BX versions as well; see for example RP Cyc vol. 6, 7, and 8= for much more on these cars and their usage.     &nbs= p;

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_191.2925a5c9.2ddb4e69_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 08:00:20 EDT Subject: Re:[PRR] sears roebuck warehouse In a message dated 5/18/2004 1:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, DOwens@courant.com writes: > October 30, 1994: the powerhouse remains. Rail lines are still in the area, essentially running through several blocks of "brownfield" sites. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_9d.487d2743.2ddb54d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message=20= dated 5/18/2004 1:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, DOwens@courant.com writes:

I believe the whole complex= was demolished back in the late 80s

October 30, 1994: the powerhouse remains. Rail lines are still in the
area, essentially running through several blocks of "brownfield" sites.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_9d.487d2743.2ddb54d4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] X25 BX photo Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 12:51:48 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:08:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Name the Painting MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, Nice colorful art. It is your painting, probably your idea of the setting and I assume it brought back memories. So I suggest "WILMINGTON MEMORIES" ...........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Track scales Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:13:32 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Track scales Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:13:32 +0000 Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 10:20:06 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting >Subject: Name the Painting >From: "RamblingReck" From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Name the Painting Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:57:57 -0000 >From: RamblingReck@att.net >Subject: RE: [PRR] Name the Painting >Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:29:51 -0400 From: "Fred Rea" Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a J1 in a week or two Fred Rea [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:36:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Double heading a j1 and an a M1? Would this be a reasonable paring? If so, am I safe to assume the M1 would usually be on the front? The reason for asking is obvious: I have a BLI M1 and am expecting a J1 in a week or two Fred Rea [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:37:23 -0400 From: Robert Parker Subject: [PRR] windows on the K-4 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:33:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] windows on the K-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob, That was Bowsers crude way of representing window frames. I believe the real K4's, as well as other locos, used 4 (2 on each side of the cab) single windows made of wood? that could slide into the forward open position as seen in many photos as well as completly closed to keep the weather out.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:39:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] windows on the K-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bob, Check this website out and you wil get a better idea of how the windows were. http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/4483Frame1Source1.htm .................Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:39:31 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Fix" the passenger business? (LOL) In a message dated 5/17/04 5:15:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:11:33 -0000 > From: "garycost2004" > Subject: Re: Perks > > Tommy; > > Hi There! Instead of doing that, if you wanted to benefit the PRR, > why wouldn't you just 'fix' or increase the passenger business? > > --- In PRR@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Meehan" wrote: > >Hi List > >If I could go back in time and change one thing to benefit the PRR > >it would be this- > > > >Create Amtrak, Septa and NJ Transit in 1958. > > > >Tommy Meehan > Gents, Amtrak et al could not be set up in 1958 because almost no one could get their hands around the problem back then. The costs, service choices, and damage to freight railroading were not well understood back then -- nor did politicians or the public appreciate that they were no longer being covered by profits from freight railroading, and that disaster (possible shutdown) was coming. There are still railfans (and Congressmen) out there who want to believe that passenger trains, if run "correctly", will cover their costs. You're welcome to argue about "fully costed", "incrementally costed", or "ICC costed" if you wish, but I spent time researching this long ago in graduate school, and to a first approximation I don't think it matters today. The brutal truth is that, in a world where you can drive your car or fly in an airplane, there's a cap on what you can charge the public for railroad passenger service. All the railfan wishes in the world can't change the "iron hand of competition" here. The passenger train lost money for most of the 20th Century. This was covered up for many years by the regulatory notion that a common carrier provided transportation services whether they were profitable or not, and its monopolistic profits covered a railroad's full costing. However (and I will state here without proof), as soon as the first truck line took away the first high-rated freight, that fairy tale began to crumble. Then wide ownership of automobiles and the Interstate Highway system took away passenger trains' volume. The last straw was the Boeing 707, with a purchase price about the same as a new passenger train, but generating many more seat-miles per month -- the faster trip over long distances was a bonus. Incidentally, Gary, it would be profitable to compare trainoff patterns on Lines West (where the distances tended to be larger) against Lines East. Seems to me the PRR had to face facts much earlier West of Pittsburgh than it did east of there; that's why Lines West passenger service withered so early. Railroading is a fascinating business -- and we should take it seriously. But let's not pretend that it will ever return to its once-competitionless state. If we insist passenger trains are economically desirable, then let us justify them in terms of highways and airports not built, imported oil saved, and maybe ecological damage minimized. Of course, that gives a whole different set of priorities to, say, Amtrak's route structure than the pious hope "to save the passenger train". Fortunately, it also provides different priorities than "spend as little as you can". I recommend we support the passenger train responsibly -- to do otherwise is to invite the public to tag us as bigger lunatics than we are . And don't ever expect those "glory days" to return. They are safe in history, where we can enjoy them at minimum cost. Of course, if what I've said has offended you, please use your delete key. Thanks for listening. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:42:38 -0400 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:52:32 -0400 Resent-Message-Id: <848A0839-A903-11D8-9995-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Resent-To: PRR-Talk LIST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Subject: [PRR] PRR 2D-P5 Truck Available Again From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-n_scale Message-Id: Resent-From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: =46rom American Limited Models today... "We are now offering the Pennsylvania 2D-P5 passenger car truck in N scale.=A0 This truck was originally tooled by us for East Wind Manufacturing and when they decided to call it quits we felt it would be a good fit in our line." =A0 "The 2D-P5 was the standard truck for Pennsylvania starting in the 1920's and saw service through the 1970's. It was used on baggage, mail, coach, diner, lounge, and observation equipment. The Norfolk and Western used a copy of this truck called the T-52 on baggage and mail cars." =A0 "The truck is a great choice for modelers kitbashing eastern equipment or upgrading existing cars." =A0 "The 2D-P5 will be available in early June." =A0 "#8190 Pennsylvania 2D-P5 Truck........................$5.95" [pair] ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] More PRR Pullmans Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:34:26 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Folks, Branchline snuck in some extra PRR painted 12-1 Pullmans in HO while we weren't looking. They are now listing: 5355 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Daniel Webster http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/12-1sleeper/ 5355-prr.jpg 5356 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Nathaniel Green 5357 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Henry Clay Note that these cars carry PULLMAN lettering, not PENNSYLVANIA. So far, It appears that Daniel Wester was not a betterment car (and so is accurate) and that Henry Clay was a betterment car (and so is not 100% accurate). DW might be a fun PRRPro project ;^) Sweet (Pullman) Dreams Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-20--765315918 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII 04DA,04CA,081BFolks, Branchline snuck in some extra PRR painted 12-1 Pullmans in HO while we weren't looking. They are now listing: 5355 04D9,04C9,081APRR (Fleet of Modernism)04DA,04CA,081B Daniel Webster http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/12-1sleeper/5355-prr.jpg 5356 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Nathaniel Green 5357 PRR (Fleet of Modernism) Henry Clay Note that these cars carry PULLMAN lettering, not PENNSYLVANIA. So far, It appears that Daniel Wester was not a betterment car (and so is accurate) and that Henry Clay was a betterment car (and so is not 100% accurate). DW might be a fun PRRPro project ;^) Sweet (Pullman) Dreams Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 --Apple-Mail-20--765315918-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 18:11:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR poling cars Hi All, I have a friend who is looking for any information on PRR Poling cars. He does not belong to on line groups so I am passing his request along. I give you the following: There were at least 67 at one time, but very few photos of them have been found. Usually, they are seen in the background of locomotive or location views, rather than having been the primary target of photographers. Might you have anything to share in this regard? We do have diagrams of classes SA, SC and S5. But, if you have any photos, would you send along scans? I am not knowledgeable of these cars, so anything sent to me will just be forwarded to him. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale The production for the REA Version has begun http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 19:53:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] RE: Passenger trains (lol) Lists, We all have very strong arguments and feelings for rail. These companies forged this nation, enlarged it, and aided it through wars, disasters, and in doing so aided in their own demise. Through governmen= t's weight of taxes and regulation we now see those results.=0D Railroad passenger traffic could still be operational in much more of = the country if it could have a commodity(mail) for a subsidy. But the power brokers took care of that more than 40 years ago while the post office wa= s still under direct government control.=0D There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for highway, airline,or = trucking companies. There must be a way for our rail lines to not only s= urvive but thrive. It is time that Congress at both state and local leve= ls take action to prevent the further erosion of service. Instead of boo= doggles like MAGLEV, put the money into passenger rail and relief for fre= ight rail. My hot button too Jim --------------Boundary-00=_31PXG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1"

Lists, We all have very strong arguments and feelings for rail= =2E These companies forged this nation, enlarged it, and aided it t= hrough wars, disasters, and in doing so aided in their own dem= ise. Through government's weight of taxes and regulation we no= w see those results.

   Railroad passenger traffic could still be operational i= n much more of the country if it could have a commodity(mail) for a subsi= dy. But the power brokers took care of that more than 40 years ago = while the post office was still under direct government control.

    There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for&= nbsp;highway, airline,or trucking companies. There must be a way fo= r our rail lines to not only survive but thrive. It is time that Co= ngress at both state and local levels take action to prevent the further = erosion of service. Instead of boodoggles like MAGLEV, put the mone= y into passenger rail and relief for freight rail. My hot button to= o      Jim

--------------Boundary-00=_31PXG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:30:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Passenger trains (lol) In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes: > There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for highway, airline,or > trucking companies. I believe you are mistaken. Please check the "government affairs" section of http://www.aar.org/ Lee Rainey --part1_a9.581ef8a6.2ddc9f49_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:22:5= 8 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes:

There are no lobbyists's for ra= il like those for highway, airline,or trucking companies.

I believe you are mistaken. Please check the "government affairs" section of= http://www.aar.org/

Lee Rainey --part1_a9.581ef8a6.2ddc9f49_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:30:17 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] RE: Passenger trains In a message dated 5/18/2004 8:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes: > There are no lobbyists's for rail like those for highway, airline,or > trucking companies. I believe you are mistaken. Please check the "government affairs" section of http://www.aar.org/ Lee Rainey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie Vlk" Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:43:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [STMFC] PRR poling cars If I am not mistaken wasn't there a drawing of one in MR many moons ago? It doesn't come up in the magazine index but I think it was a G. Harold Geisell drawing.... Charlie Vlk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie Vlk" Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:43:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [STMFC] PRR poling cars If I am not mistaken wasn't there a drawing of one in MR many moons ago? It doesn't come up in the magazine index but I think it was a G. Harold Geisell drawing.... Charlie Vlk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave West" Subject: [PRR] Name the painting Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:32:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 18:56:23 eds Subject: Re: [PRR] Name the painting From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'd suggest the name be, "In the care of the PRR" . Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine War leaves all children behind. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:30:50 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 18:00:37 -0400 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] Alco C425/425 marker/class lights X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers, Can anyone tell me what were the colors and postions of the three lamps on the front of these cabs above the number boards. I'm assuming red markers with green and white class lights. Can't find any color pictures with a closeup. Thanks in advance, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:42:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - We're Back (We Think!) From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <5507D89C-AB24-11D8-B910-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My ISP's broadband network went down around 3 a.m. yesterday (5/20). It came back up about 8:30 this morning. Don't know for sure that it is up for good, as they continue to work on other aspects of their system. So the lists, Keystone Crossings, and other web sites served by DSOP.COM are now back "on air". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:04:29 -0400 BLI J1
Listers,

It seems that traffic is light so I'll throw out this = question:

The three BLI J's all seem to be from Lines = West. Where any of them ever seen on the curve? If not do = you think that BLI will run some eastern J1 numbers?

Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F2B.C54DCB50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 08:04:29 -0400 BLI J1
Listers,

It seems that traffic is light so I'll throw out this = question:

The three BLI J's all seem to be from Lines = West. Where any of them ever seen on the curve? If not do = you think that BLI will run some eastern J1 numbers?

Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F2B.C54DCB50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:11:22 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 13:11:22 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 09:25:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco C425/425 marker/class lights MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dave, I had this same question awhile ago. The answer was Red to the side near the headlight, Green to the center and Clear/White to the outside. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Caboose antenna - N8 Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 21:52:42 -0400 Dave, I don't know in general where to find these diagrams, but I have a copy = of the antenna arrangement for the N8 - it shows all the parts and = dimensions as to where they are located. Am not sure what is the best = way to reproduce it - it is about 3' x 4'. Maybe scan it in pieces? Jack Consoli=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Owens, David=20 To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Caboose antenna Anyone know where I could find diagrams for affixing train phone = antennas to cabooses? Some years ago I put a Bowser antenna set on an N5. I sort of winged = it on where to attach the wire after it extends down the end of the = caboose. I'd like to get my N8s right. Anyone have any information? Thanks, Dave Owens Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better = reproduce the PRR in miniature !=20 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-Modeling/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C43EB4.C70BEF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave,

I don't know in general where to find = these=20 diagrams, but I have a copy of the antenna arrangement for the N8 - it = shows all=20 the parts and dimensions as to where they are located. Am not sure what = is the=20 best way to reproduce it - it is about 3' x 4'. Maybe scan it in=20 pieces?

Jack Consoli

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Owens, David=20
To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com =

Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 = 12:30=20 PM

Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Caboose = antenna

Anyone know where I could find diagrams for = affixing train=20 phone antennas to cabooses? Some years ago I put a Bowser = antenna set=20 on an N5. I sort of winged it on where to attach the wire after it = extends=20 down the end of the caboose. I'd like to get my N8s = right. Anyone have=20 any information? Thanks, Dave = Owens

Sharing=20 and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better = reproduce the=20 PRR in miniature !

Yahoo! = Groups=20 Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.= com/group/PRR-Modeling/ =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C43EB4.C70BEF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 22:20:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Don Ball's books all seem to have at least one Pennsy J in them. His book on the Pennsy of the 40's and 50's has several shots of the J's on the curve. One is of them double heading on the curve. There are also shots of them out west for ore service along with the rented Santa Fe steamers. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1085192432 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Don Ball's books all seem to have at least one Pennsy J in them.&n= bsp; His book on the Pennsy of the 40's and 50's has several shots of the J'= s on the curve. One is of them double heading on the curve. There are=20= also shots of them out west for ore service along with the rented Santa Fe s= teamers.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1085192432-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 23:11:49 -0500 BLI J1Hi Chris--I can't answer your question about the three J1 numbers = BLI is offering, but some J1's did see service both on the curve and out = west. Don Ball's "40's and 50's" p. 152 shows 6423 on the curve; 6423 = shows up again on its way to Sandusky in Herron's video "Pennsylvania = Glory Vol. II". =20 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_00E6_01C43F88.FEBFEEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" BLI J1
Hi Chris--I can't answer your question = about the=20 three J1 numbers BLI is offering, but some J1's did see service both on = the=20 curve and out west. Don Ball's "40's and 50's" p. 152 shows 6423 = on the=20 curve; 6423 shows up again on its way to Sandusky in Herron's = video=20 "Pennsylvania Glory Vol. II".

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_00E6_01C43F88.FEBFEEB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:48:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N8 Built dates Hi All, I am decaling some of my PRR N8 Cabin Cars. I am as armed as I can be with a 1958 Cabin region roster and a few Builders photos. I found the following from my Builders photos to be a little strange. 478119 Built 6-51 478120 Built 12-50 >From a photo on Fallen Flags http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr478078ava.jpg which may not be correct: 478078 Built 5-51 >From the NJ International Cabin book 478114 Built 1-51 Some of them, especially Cabin 478120 seems to be out of sequence. Would they have not been built sequentially in a time line fashion? I am wondering about using the 1958 roster. If I don't have enough things to pontificate about, I am doing this! I am trying to build a time line so I can guess about when the car numbers I picked may have been built. Also, is it correct to be using the "Philadelphia Div." region on a Circle Keystone N8? Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com The production for the REA Version has begun Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N8 Built dates Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:48:24 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am decaling some of my PRR N8 Cabin Cars. I am as armed as I can be = with a 1958 Cabin region roster and a few Builders photos. I found the following from my Builders photos to be a = little strange. 478119 Built 6-51 478120 Built 12-50 >From a photo on Fallen Flags = http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr478078ava.jpg which may not be = correct: 478078 Built 5-51 >From the NJ International Cabin book 478114 Built 1-51 Some of them, especially Cabin 478120 seems to be out of sequence. Would = they have not been built sequentially in a time line fashion? I am wondering about using the 1958 roster. If I = don't have enough things to pontificate about, I am doing this! I am trying to build a time line so I can guess about = when the car numbers I picked may have been built. Also, is it correct to be using the "Philadelphia Div." region on a = Circle Keystone N8? =20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass PRR X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com The production for the REA Version has begun =20 Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] 8739 Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 18:20:15 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: 8739 was PRR Class BS-12m, Baldwin S-12, renumbered to 8189 for the PC merger. Built 9-52 and made it into PC. The above info comes from the PRR Diesel Roster information inPennsy Diesels A to Z. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: edmund burbage To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 6:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Can anyone tell me what Class Locomotive had the number 8739 under the PRR? It's a Diesel. I would appreciate any help. Lee Burbage #1943 PRRT&HS leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 17:55:11 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR] From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] F-unit lift Rings Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 19:36:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: When did the PRR start to apply lift rings to the noses of F-units. Please be as specific as possible in your answers. Thanks. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 23:40:22 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] GE 44-Tonners Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 09:32:31 -0400 From: don smith Subject: [PRR] PRR 44 Tonners on the Wabash Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi, The Wabash had a branch from Bluffs, Ill. to Keokuk, Ia. The branch weight limit was restricted by a bridge at Meredosia, Ill. During the steam era the line was powered by several class F-4 2-6-0s. Wabash management wished to replace the steamers but owned no diesels light enough to meet the weight limit. This is why the Wabash leased the PRR 44tonners. The Wabash received 9313 on 02-02-55 and 9318 on 02-11-55. The Moguls were immediately taken out of service. Regards, Don Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:15:25 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted out and others didn't. Thanx -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:15:25 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted out and others didn't. Thanx -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:24:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ft. Wayne Line MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List, What is left of PRR's Ft. Wayne main west of Crestline Ohio? Is the line complete to Chicago? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 08:51:59 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Thread-Index: AcRBKFiaA8xReJVIQi6DTsumVd1ShAAbauDA From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: , "John Frantz" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2004 13:51:54.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[45DDCC40:01C44196] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Other lines also "Coal Goes to War" on their hoppers - I've seen a = picture of a Montour hopper with this logo.=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 7:40 PM To: John Frantz Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" > Gents, > > Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, > what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking > at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted > out and others didn't. photo evidence - GLCA 250391 circa 1942 Other war slogans: H31B 220977 "Buy War bonds" circa 1947 (Keystone Dec 1983, p26) H31B 221265 "Buy War bonds" circa 12/46 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) H31B 221011 "Buy War bonds" circa 5/47 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6564.0 Subject: RE: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 09:20:49 -0500 Message-ID: <5C7927ABD321EB458EF70953E0D053E80CF6BD@INDYSMAIL02.am.thmulti.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Thread-Index: AcRBKFiaA8xReJVIQi6DTsumVd1ShAAbauDAAADjfnA= From: "Colman Gerald" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" , , "John Frantz" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2004 14:20:50.0581 (UTC) FILETIME=[50933450:01C4419A] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Westerfield makes a set: Decal 2361, GLCA Hopper, Pennsylvania Late. Click on Link below. http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/ Then on: 93. Decals Hopper Cars near bottom of page Jerry Colman -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 8:52 AM To: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu; John Frantz Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" Other lines also "Coal Goes to War" on their hoppers - I've seen a = picture of a Montour hopper with this logo.=20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 7:40 PM To: John Frantz Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" > Gents, > > Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, > what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking > at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted > out and others didn't. photo evidence - GLCA 250391 circa 1942 Other war slogans: H31B 220977 "Buy War bonds" circa 1947 (Keystone Dec 1983, p26) H31B 221265 "Buy War bonds" circa 12/46 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) H31B 221011 "Buy War bonds" circa 5/47 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open = Hoppr Cars) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Schedule for NE Proto meet, June 4-5, Collinsville, CT Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:08:43 -0400 Message-ID: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD0257@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Index: AcRBqJoMmBP5C3pMSa2Z4abQrQRw8gAADOtAAAAM4nAAABC4EA== From: "Owens, David" To: Return-Path: DOwens@courant.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2004 16:08:44.0859 (UTC) FILETIME=[638BA0B0:01C441A9] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Northeast/New England Prototype Modelers Meet > June 4-5, 9 a.m. to whenever > Canton Community Center > 40 Dyer Avenue > Collinsville, Connecticut > =20 > To preregister, mail a check payable to N.E. Proto Meet to Fran = Richard, 34 Ellsworth Road, West Hartford, CT 06107. > Registration is $20 in advance, $25 at the door. >=20 > Of note: > Branchline Trains will be open to meet attendees on Thursday night. = Bill Schneider will lead a tour and answer questions. He also plans to = have test shots of Branchline's new Pullmans on display at the meet. = Contact Dave Owens [dowens@courant.com, 860-209-8155] for details and = directions. > =20 > Friday afternoon's weathering clinic is hands-on, meaning = participants are urged to bring a model they'd like to weather. As = Mike's technique is "prototype weathering," a photo of an actual piece = of rail equipment that you'd like to match is also suggested. >=20 > Also, Don Valentine of New England Rail Service will lead a workshop = on kitbashing Rivarossi Pullman cars. Bring a car you'd like to work on. >=20 > As always, the model display is the real heart of the meet. Please = bring your work -- completed in process or in parts! >=20 >=20 > SCHEDULE - subject to change > Thursday, June 3 > Tours of Branchline Trains, from 3:30 p.m. on. Contact Dave Owens = [dowens@courant.com, 860-209-8155] for details. >=20 > Friday, June 4 > 10 a.m. Resin Casting with Ben Brown >=20 > Diesel Detailing with Den Lippert >=20 > 11:30 a.m. The Milk Market for the Reading, Pennsylvania and Central = Railroad of New Jersey with John Greene > =09 > Prototype Intermodal Operations with Ramon Rhodes >=20 > 1 p.m. Lunch >=20 > 2 p.m. Modeling the Chessie System with Jeff Hanke >=20 > Scratchbuilding basics with Roger Moreau >=20 > 3:30 p.m. Prototype weathering with Mike Rose and Ned Carey - = hands-on clinic >=20 > 6 p.m. Dinner break >=20 > 7: 30 p.m. Bob LaMay - slide show - Life Cycle of an FL-9 >=20 > 9 p.m. or so Pete McLachlan - slide show - Life on the Railroad >=20 > Saturday, June 5 > 9 a.m. The Railway Express Agency with Victor Roseman > =09 > New England Milk Trains with Don Valentine >=20 > 10:30 a.m. Modeling Catenary with Rick Abramson >=20 > The Joy of Scratchbuilding with Mike Tylick >=20 > Noon Lunch break. >=20 > 1 p.m. Vehicle Modeling with George Barrett >=20 > Railroading, a Behind the Scenes Look with Jim Tylick. >=20 > 2:30 p.m. Billboard Reefers and Other Disasters: How Government > Regulations Affected Car Building with Al Westerfield >=20 > Modeling a Maine Central/Guilford Rail System U18B with Mike Rose. >=20 > 4 p.m. Heavyweight Pullmans with Al Hoffman >=20 > A Century of Canadian National, with Dave Geisler >=20 > 5:30 p.m. Dinner break >=20 > 7:30 p.m. Tom Nanos - slide show - New England Railroad Photography- = from rosters to art=20 >=20 >=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PRR-Talk" Subject: Re: Incoming message Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:00:29 -0400 > > >Read the attach.

> > >
Password -
>
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For more information, you can contact the list administrator at: Listmaster !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:02:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, When S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html released DM & IR ore cars earlier this year, I thought I was safe from having to buy them en masse - until yesterday. In the PRR Color Guide 3 on page 101 is a FF1 pushing on a N8 (my original quest for looking at the photo) in what is probably the Thorndale PA area. Ahead of the N8 is the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range U-27 "Lake Superior" design 70 ton ore car which I am assuming would have been a unit train of ore cars. The photo was taken in 1958. Did this service start earlier then this? BTW ore car fans, these cars are BEAUTIFUL and R-T-R available in single and 5 car sets in a number of road names. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:15:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Locals and Cabins From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm thinking 1954, and a few specific instances, but I welcome responses to widen the topic... When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? Two case studies: 1) Harrisburg local... Takes a string of cars from the yard at Harrisburg for delivery at industries along the mains through the Harrisburg area. Relatively small operating area. 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile trip one way. I know the Enola-Rutherford Yard transfer runs had a cabin. Numerous photos document this. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Bill Lane wrote: > When S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html released > DM & IR ore cars earlier this year, I > thought I was safe from having to buy them en masse - until yesterday. > In the PRR Color Guide 3 on page 101 is a > FF1 pushing on a N8 (my original quest for looking at the photo) in > what is probably the Thorndale PA area. Ahead > of the N8 is the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range U-27 "Lake Superior" > design 70 ton ore car which I am assuming would > have been a unit train of ore cars. The photo was taken in 1958. Did > this service start earlier then this? Bill: The Philly ore pier opened in 1954, so that sets your EARLIEST possible date. PRR started sending its own hoppers -- mostly H21a and GLa -- west with iron ore. These same hoppers would bring coal east. The G39 cars, specifically designed for ore, would come along around 1959, IIRC. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:00:11 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 25, 2004, at 9:15 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm thinking 1954, and a few specific instances, but I welcome > responses to widen the topic... > > When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin > cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? Outside of yard limits, a "train" must have markers. With very few exceptions, they would be carried by a cabin car. In addition, the cabin was the crew office and "rider car"... remember that you might typically have five man crews, and they need somewhere to ride! Depending on the mode of operation, the cabin could be at the front, the back, the middle, or more than one cabin could be used. If a cabin is not protecting the end of the train, then the car must be flagged during the day and lit at night. > Two case studies: > > 1) Harrisburg local... Takes a string of cars from the yard at > Harrisburg for delivery at industries along the mains through the > Harrisburg area. Relatively small operating area.\ Outside yard limits? If so, a cabin was probably used. If not, it may still have rated a cabin. Most likely an N6B > 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York > Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile > trip one way. Absolutely a cabin, most likely an N6B. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:04:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 11:00 AM, Bruce Smith wrote: > Outside yard limits? If so, a cabin was probably used. If not, it > may still have rated a cabin. Most likely an N6B > > Absolutely a cabin, most likely an N6B. Bowser!!! Well, gonna have to go with an N5 for now! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 10:37:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I don't know where to start to find the photo, but there is one available of a mixed train of a DM&IR string and a Pennsy string of I believe both G38 and G39 cars, FWIW. Unfortunately, that doesn't sound like the era would suit Bill's purposes. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Bill Lane" Cc: "PRR Talk" ; "Steam Era Freight cars" Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR > On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Bill Lane wrote: > > > When S Helper Service http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html released > > DM & IR ore cars earlier this year, I > > thought I was safe from having to buy them en masse - until yesterday. > > In the PRR Color Guide 3 on page 101 is a > > FF1 pushing on a N8 (my original quest for looking at the photo) in > > what is probably the Thorndale PA area. Ahead > > of the N8 is the Duluth Missabe & Iron Range U-27 "Lake Superior" > > design 70 ton ore car which I am assuming would > > have been a unit train of ore cars. The photo was taken in 1958. Did > > this service start earlier then this? > > Bill: The Philly ore pier opened in 1954, so that sets your EARLIEST > possible date. PRR started sending its own hoppers -- mostly H21a and > GLa -- west with iron ore. These same hoppers would bring coal east. > The G39 cars, specifically designed for ore, would come along around > 1959, IIRC. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:35:01 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, As Bruce Smith has replied in another message, virtually ALL moves were made with a cabin car on the PRR.. Station and classification yard shifters were the only exceptions In N sacle, Gloor Craft, formerly Quality Craft makes a very nice N6b kit, BTW. They come up on eBay now and again. I've got one built and one still in kit form. And, no, they're not for sale! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:15 AM Subject: [PRR] Locals and Cabins > I'm thinking 1954, and a few specific instances, but I welcome > responses to widen the topic... > > When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin > cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? > > Two case studies: > > 1) Harrisburg local... Takes a string of cars from the yard at > Harrisburg for delivery at industries along the mains through the > Harrisburg area. Relatively small operating area. > > 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York > Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile > trip one way. > > I know the Enola-Rutherford Yard transfer runs had a cabin. Numerous > photos document this. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:35:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 01:35 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > In N sacle, Gloor Craft, formerly Quality Craft makes a very nice N6b > kit, > BTW. They come up on eBay now and again. I've got one built and one > still in > kit form. And, no, they're not for sale! Dang! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "Gregg Mahlkov" , "PRR-Talk LIST" From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:56:53 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 25, 2004, at 12:35 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > On Tuesday, May 25, 2004, at 01:35 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > >> In N sacle, Gloor Craft, formerly Quality Craft makes a very nice N6b >> kit, >> BTW. They come up on eBay now and again. I've got one built and one >> still in >> kit form. And, no, they're not for sale! > > Dang! Worse, Gloor Craft appears to be out of business. A number of sources indicate production has recently ceased. In HO, I'm looking for their PRR Tower (Jack's). As for cabins, all you need to do is get one kit. I would then duplicate the sides and ends in styrene (or perhaps make a styrene master and resin copies), the roof and underbody in styrene, and the cupola sides/ends in resin. In HO, I had planned on doing that, but in fact will probably end up just scratch building most of the parts I need to finish my N4, using the Gloor Craft parts as a guide (I will use their steps) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] The Valparaiso Dummy Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:48:27 +0000 From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Older kits and how to get the models Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:56:34 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2004 21:20:18.0459 (UTC) FILETIME=[14365EB0:01C4429E] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello Y'all Combo Yankee and TXican. LOL Or Howdy you all. I remember the days of an Ambroid "one of a thousand" kit. If you needed more than one, and could not afford them, you would simply make from scratch using the plans from Ambroid. So if these Quality or Gloor are OOB, then why not just scan the plans, eMail them to who needs them, and make from scratch. Ambroid was wood, but what difference does that make. Styrene or this "new" stuff you call resin/rosin ? (sp). So what's the big deal. Now, if you need "let's say" about 4 or so, the construction could be more of an assembly line type. But again, not beyond the skill level of most of you/us. I realize this isn't "PRR", so why not make a huge volume of N6's and sell them? LOL The market is here. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.689 / Virus Database: 450 - Release Date: 05/21/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:59:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Older kits and how to get the models MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Morgan, Proof of what you said of what can be done using plans can be seen here: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/N6b_index.html That is what I did when I built my 1:29th Scale N6b. I used the O Scale plans from Quailty Craft's N6b for help in building. However, I don't see a lot of profit being made by scratch building them. Just way too much time involved. Say it took me about 20 hours to build an N Scale N6b and working at $10.00 and hour (thats cheap). Who would pay someone $200.00 for an N Scale styrene Cabin? Scratch Building for ones own fleet I can see though because of the enjoyment. Isn't the N Scale Gloor Craft Cabin still available? Just for the heck of it I bought one of the N Scale N6b kits at a local trainshow several years ago. ($4.00 if I recall). Built and painted it and sold it on eBay for $30 plus dollars. Was it someone here who bought it?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:19:13 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8 >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser N8 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:56:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser N8 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Tom, Eventually, I believe an upgrade article of somekind will appear in future TKM. I have built one so far and have another waiting to go. You all read the reviews of the Bowser model. It has some fine features but it also has booboos. The Booboos, as I see them. #1. Bad representations of Crash Beams #2. Lack of Cushioned Coupler Pocket #3. Brake Rod interfer with Truck Swing (if built the way Bowser says to build it). Luckily, these Booboos can be dealt with. The Crash Beams were cut from the end railing piece, as well as the detail located at the top of the Beams. The arch that connects everything was also discarded. This was only cast on to give this piece strength. It is quite delicate after romoval so be careful when handling. New Evergreen Channels were glued in place and the horizontal Railings was replicated by using brass wire. The top details on the Crash Beams were fabricated with thin styrene. Just duplicate what Bowsers looked like, more or less. Tweezers come in handy here! The Cushioned Underframe/Coupler Pocket was much easier. I did it one way but I think there is a better way. What I did was shaved off the coupler pocket frame work, leaving the "pad " in place. I then glued a flat styrene extension from the end of the cast on center sill out to the point of 17" past the end sill. I then glued a KD#5 Coupler Box to the surface of this extension then glued very thin styrene overlays on the coupler box . That gave me the appearence of a Cushioned Coupler Pocket. I think a better way to model this is to use Channel for the extension itself. Trying to match the size Bowser used for their center sill if possible. Then mount the coupler somehow inside the channel. Once the coupler is installed, cap the channel with styrene. The position of the Fulcrum of the brake parts is located in a not so good place. I glued it where Bowser said to. Then attached the brake rods like directed to. Problem is when the trucks are mounted the flange of the wheels interfers with the rod and does not allow the truck to swing properly. 2 cures. Cut the rods short or mount the rods further towrards the center sill so they don't contact the wheel sets. As for the corner post Handrals, I didn't attempt it. If you don't hit the center of the posts perfectly with a size 80 bit, your screwed. Here are some pics of my finished N8. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/bowsern8.JPG http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/bowsern83.JPG http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/bowsern85.JPG Tom, you asked if the Crash Beams were worth it. Well, for me, Yes, I now know they are actual Channels instead of solid beams......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Carl Korn Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:35:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Ore cars on the PRR Time of year may have been a factor but recall PRR leased these cars during ore jenny shortage to bring Venezuelan "mud" ore from Philadelphia to Pitcairn for Thomson Works or to Butler Junction for delivery to BLE where it went to Saxonburg washer prior to delivery to Union RR and I believe Thomson Works.also.--carl korn ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] N6b Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:25:02 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am trying to move another one of my cabins out of the world of the = unpainted. I am hoping to get a side shot or at least the Cabin number of a center cupola N6b in Shadow Keystone with = it being Eastern or Phila. region? A tall order I know, but what the heck.... I would like the photo to see if I have to paint the whole cupola black = or just the roof surfaces. I have given a quick scan of the 3 color guides and the NJI cabin book to no avail. = They were mostly Lake or Southwestern regions. I know that there were over 800 N6 on the active roster in 1958. I hope = at least one fits all of my wish list. =20 Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:33:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've discovered an area in north Harrisburg that, according to the CT1000E, 1945 edition, had four tracks dedicated to "U.S. Government Ground Storage". This was in the Lucknow area, just east of the Rockville Bridge. For reference, the CT1000 entries for the area included: Cattle Car Disinfecting Siding M. W. Storehouse Lucknow Scrap Dock U.S. Government Ground Storage Nos. 1, 2, 3 & 4 Would this likely have been four storage tracks where cars sat for later use? Or four sidings in an area where stuff was offloaded for storage on the ground? Makes a big difference in the size of the facility and the scope of operations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:33:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've discovered an area in north Harrisburg that, according to the CT1000E, 1945 edition, had four tracks dedicated to "U.S. Government Ground Storage". This was in the Lucknow area, just east of the Rockville Bridge. For reference, the CT1000 entries for the area included: Cattle Car Disinfecting Siding M. W. Storehouse Lucknow Scrap Dock U.S. Government Ground Storage Nos. 1, 2, 3 & 4 Would this likely have been four storage tracks where cars sat for later use? Or four sidings in an area where stuff was offloaded for storage on the ground? Makes a big difference in the size of the facility and the scope of operations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser N8 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:40:46 -0400 RE: [PRR] Bowser N8
On my Bowser N8's, I will do the same as I do on all = my other cabeese/cabin models-- make the floor removable. That = way, I can have access to the inside to install window glass after = painting and weathering, and, especially for Pennsy cabins, that means = the crash beam/end assembly will be rigidly mounted to the body, so = there is less chance of messing things up by removing the top from the = body.

I do this before any other construction, by cutting = out the floor at the edges along the sides (from underneath, of = course). For length, I cut about six scale inches inside of the = ends, this gives me a small ledge to glue styrene from inside to make a = shelf that the floor can butt up against, and a pad for receiving = screws to hold everything together. I make sure the weight fits = inside the perimeter of this removable floor, and then move on to the = rest of the project, with all remaining work done right side up...I = think.

I'd be glad to draw you a picture, and will do so at = the RR Museum of Pennsylvania at "Pennsy Days" the weekend = after next. If it isn't too hot inside, I'll be hanging out = there, and easy to find.

Andrew Harmantas, using the term "cabin" = because I'm right next to C&O Milepost FM Zero.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4431E.AAF82CCC-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Ore cars on the PRR - a little correction Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:51:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All Upon closer inspection the ore car in the N8 photo I mentioned yesterday = was actually B &LE not DM &IR. That was significant according to Tim Gilbert from the Steam Era Freight Cars = list. Here his 2 replies on the subject. The last PRR-LV Erie-Bethlehem Ore Train via the Shamokin Branch ran in = 1957. The ore was carried primarily in H-21's with the ore piled high onto the slope sheets to balance the load = over the bolsters - see Penn Valley video #1, The Ore Train." According to Hastings' PORTRAIT OF THE PRR, the = hoppers were sent down to the Philly Ore Pier or Baltimore (via the Bel-Del?) where they were reloaded with ore for = Johnstown or Pittsburgh. Tim Gilbert Most of DM&IR's ore cars were not designed for interchange. Their brake = system's connections were incompatible with the standard AAR connections (or so I have been told); hence, to = interchange any these cars, a transition car had to be used with one end having the AAR standard and the other the DM&IR = standard. Therefore, I would assume that any DM&IR ore car off road would be part of a unit made up of DM&IR cars = with transition cars at both ends of the unit. The DM&IR normally shut down ore operations when the Lakes froze. = Therefore, if there was a "DM&IR unit train" on the PRR, it would have to have been in the winter. That's possible if = steel production surged as it normally did just prior to a Steel strike - and there were a few of them during the = 1950's. Another possibility may be if an ore car was transferred to the B&LE by = the DM&IR, and the B&LE had not gotten around to relettering it. I don't know if this helps, Tim Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:25:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b Hi All, I am trying to move another one of my cabins out of the world of the unpainted. I am hoping to get a side shot or at least the Cabin number of a center cupola N6b in Shadow Keystone with it being Eastern or Phila. region? A tall order I know, but what the heck.... I would like the photo to see if I have to paint the whole cupola black or just the roof surfaces. I have given a quick scan of the 3 color guides and the NJI cabin book to no avail. They were mostly Lake or Southwestern regions. I know that there were over 800 N6 on the active roster in 1958. I hope at least one fits all of my wish list. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:25:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6b Hi All, I am trying to move another one of my cabins out of the world of the unpainted. I am hoping to get a side shot or at least the Cabin number of a center cupola N6b in Shadow Keystone with it being Eastern or Phila. region? A tall order I know, but what the heck.... I would like the photo to see if I have to paint the whole cupola black or just the roof surfaces. I have given a quick scan of the 3 color guides and the NJI cabin book to no avail. They were mostly Lake or Southwestern regions. I know that there were over 800 N6 on the active roster in 1958. I hope at least one fits all of my wish list. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass S Scale X29 http://www.pennsysmodels.com The Production has begun for the REA Version Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:21:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsy West of Crestline A friend passed this on. Is this the former Pennsy line out of Crestline? RailAmerica, Inc. (ticker: RRA, exchange: New York Stock Exchange) News Release - 25-May-2004 Central Railroad of Indianapolis, a Subsidiary of RailAmerica, Inc. to Lease Rail Line From CSX Transportation Inc. BOCA RATON, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 25, 2004--RailAmerica, Inc. (NYSE:RRA) today announced that its subsidiary, Central Railroad of Indianapolis, notified the Surface Transportation Board (STB) that it intends to lease 276 miles of railroad from CSX Corporation's (NYSE: CSX) subsidiary, CSX Transportation, Inc., subject to negotiation and execution of a definitive agreement. The line, known as the Fort Wayne Corridor, runs west from Crestline, Ohio to Tolleston, Indiana, which is due east of Chicago. Central Railroad of Indianapolis anticipates moving approximately 42,000 carloads on the Fort Wayne Corridor annually. RailAmerica's Indiana & Ohio Railway directly connects and interchanges traffic with the Fort Wayne Corridor. Traffic on the line also interchanges with CSXT, Norfolk Southern and Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad Company (IHB), as well as all western & Chicago-based carriers through the IHB. Major customers on the line are Central Soya, Steel Dynamics, Procter & Gamble, Cargill and National Lime & Stone. Commodities shipped on the line include agricultural products, chemicals, metals, paper and minerals. RailAmerica, Inc., based in Boca Raton, Fla., is the world's premier short line and regional railroad operator, with 47 railroads operating approximately 12,000 miles in the United States, Canada, and Australia. The Company is a member of the Russell 2000(R) Index. Its website may be found at www.railamerica.com. CSX Corporation, based in Jacksonville, Fla., owns one of the largest rail networks in the United States. CSX Transportation Inc. and its 34,000 employees provide rail transportation services over a 23,000 mile route network in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSX Corporation also provides intermodal and global container terminal operations through other subsidiaries. Disclaimer Regarding Forward-Looking Statements: This press release contains forward-looking statements regarding future events and the performance of RailAmerica that involve risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially including, but not limited to, fuel costs, foreign currency risks, failure to consummate and/or successfully integrate acquisitions, failure to service debt, failure to successfully market and sell non-operating/non-strategic properties and assets when scheduled or at all, failure to accomplish new marketing initiatives, economic and weather conditions, customer demand, increased competition in the relevant market, and others. In particular, forward-looking statements regarding the performance and earnings of the Company and entities to be acquired are subject to inherent economic, financial and operating uncertainties, including changes in economic and weather conditions, the ability to retain key customers and the impact of unforeseen costs and liabilities of such entities. Forward-looking statements speak only as of the date the statement was made. The Company assumes no obligation to update forward-looking information to reflect actual results, changes in assumptions or changes in other factors affecting forward-looking information. If the Company does update any forward-looking statement, no inference should be drawn that the Company will make additional updates with respect to that statement or any other forward-looking statements. We refer you to the documents that RailAmerica files from time to time with the Securities and Exchange Commission, such as the Form 10-K, Form 10-Q and Form 8-K, which contain additional important factors that could cause its actual results to differ from its current expectations and from the forward-looking statements contained in this press release. CONTACT: RailAmerica, Boca Raton Susan Wright Greenfield, 561/994-6015 SOURCE: RailAmerica, Inc. Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1085577701 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
A friend passed this on. Is this the= former Pennsy line out of Crestline?

Rai= lAmerica, Inc. (ticker: RRA, exchange: New York Stock Exchange) News Release= - 25-May-2004=20
Ce= ntral Railroad of Indianapolis, a Subsidiary of RailAmerica, Inc. to Lease R= ail Line From CSX Transportation Inc.=20

BOCA RATON, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 25, 2004--RailAmerica, Inc. (NYSE:= RRA) today announced that its subsidiary, Central Railroad of Indianapolis,=20= notified the Surface Transportation Board (STB) that it intends to lease 276= miles of railroad from CSX Corporation's (NYSE: CSX) subsidiary, CSX Transp= ortation, Inc., subject to negotiation and execution of a definitive agreeme= nt.

The line, known as the Fort Wayne Corridor, runs west from Crestline, Ohi= o to Tolleston, Indiana, which is due east of Chicago. Central Railroad of I= ndianapolis anticipates moving approximately 42,000 carloads on the Fort Way= ne Corridor annually.

RailAmerica's Indiana & Ohio Railway directly connects and interchang= es traffic with the Fort Wayne Corridor. Traffic on the line also interchang= es with CSXT, Norfolk Southern and Indiana Harbor Belt Railroad Company (IHB= ), as well as all western & Chicago-based carriers through the IHB. Majo= r customers on the line are Central Soya, Steel Dynamics, Procter & Gamb= le, Cargill and National Lime & Stone. Commodities shipped on the line i= nclude agricultural products, chemicals, metals, paper and minerals.

RailAmerica, Inc., based in Boca Raton, Fla., is the world's premier shor= t line and regional railroad operator, with 47 railroads operating approxima= tely 12,000 miles in the United States, Canada, and Australia. The Company i= s a member of the Russell 2000(R) Index. Its website may be found at www.rai= lamerica.com.

CSX Corporation, based in Jacksonville, Fla., owns one of the largest rai= l networks in the United States. CSX Transportation Inc. and its 34,000 empl= oyees provide rail transportation services over a 23,000 mile route network=20= in 23 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSX Corpo= ration also provides intermodal and global container terminal operations thr= ough other subsidiaries.

Disclaimer Regarding Forward-Looking Statements:

This press release contains forward-looking statements regarding future e= vents and the performance of RailAmerica that involve risks and uncertaintie= s that could cause actual results to differ materially including, but not li= mited to, fuel costs, foreign currency risks, failure to consummate and/or s= uccessfully integrate acquisitions, failure to service debt, failure to succ= essfully market and sell non-operating/non-strategic properties and assets w= hen scheduled or at all, failure to accomplish new marketing initiatives, ec= onomic and weather conditions, customer demand, increased competition in the= relevant market, and others. In particular, forward-looking statements rega= rding the performance and earnings of the Company and entities to be acquire= d are subject to inherent economic, financial and operating uncertainties, i= ncluding changes in economic and weather conditions, the ability to retain k= ey customers and the impact of unforeseen costs and liabilities of such enti= ties. Forward-looking statements speak only as of the date the statement was= made. The Company assumes no obligation to update forward-looking informati= on to reflect actual results, changes in assumptions or changes in other fac= tors affecting forward-looking information. If the Company does update any f= orward-looking statement, no inference should be drawn that the Company will= make additional updates with respect to that statement or any other forward= -looking statements. We refer you to the documents that RailAmerica files fr= om time to time with the Securities and Exchange Commission, such as the For= m 10-K, Form 10-Q and Form 8-K, which contain additional important factors t= hat could cause its actual results to differ from its current expectations a= nd from the forward-looking statements contained in this press release.
<= /FONT>
CONTACT: RailAmerica, Boca Raton Susan Wright Greenfield, 561/994-6015 SOURCE: RailAmerica, Inc.

Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS 346
PRRT&= amp;HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003
-------------------------------1085577701-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:52:44 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] RE: Bowser N8 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:39:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: 44 Tonnrs on Wabash From: John Sheets Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:45:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Ore Cars on the PRR From: John Sheets From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] JMRI interface Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:22:28 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] JMRI interface Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 20:22:28 +0000 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:25:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Broadway Limited has posted new pictures of their J1 on their website. She looks pretty good. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:47:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Now that's more like it! They did away with the red roof. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 > Broadway Limited has posted new pictures of their J1 on their website. She looks pretty good. > Eric > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 15:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 18:03:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: But it still looks like there is a lack of cold water pump and piping along the firemans side trailing truck. Looks like they never updated that missing item. Pretty near to release date so it looks like something we will need to add on our own......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:42:13 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Locals and Cabins Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: >> When locals went out to do their work, did they typically have cabin >> cars along, or did they operate without a cabin? >> 2) York Haven Turn... Train from Enola works York Haven Line to York >> Haven and returns. Several hours, if not most of day. About a 15 mile >> trip one way. > > Absolutely a cabin, most likely an N6B. Jerry, the data base on your website shows 4 N6B assigned to service on the Cumberland Valley Division (2 at Enola [CV3-4, CV95-96], 1 at Chambersburg [CV58-59], and 1 at Hagerstown [CV95-96]). I don't know which of these were locals and which weren't, but I suspect at least CV58-59 were. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:41:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update to My Web site I have finished listing of all the yard and road switchers as of January 1958 and am now on to the next project, Road Freight Assignments from April 1957. This will cover mostly cab units with some GP9's included. On the 1957 Assignments they have also included in the maintenance point for the locomotives and the regional assignment. Dayna & Randy Williamson http://prrfreight.trainstuffllc.com/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/raYplB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:41:29 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update to My Web site From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] PA and Bowser N8 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:15:38 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: [PRR] PA and Bowser N8 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:15:38 -00 From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] The Valparaiso Dummy Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 04:20:39 -00 >From: ted_andrews@msn.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] The Valparaiso Dummy >Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:48:27 +0000 From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:54:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Ken, Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc. The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day although I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding. I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visit. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1085658877 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Ken,

Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a=20= rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursvi= lle at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experien= ce that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc.

The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day althoug= h I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding.

I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visi= t.

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1085658877-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 07:54:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Ken, Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc. The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day although I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding. I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visit. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1085658877 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Ken,

Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a=20= rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in Montoursvi= lle at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the same experien= ce that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc.

The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day althoug= h I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding.

I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for visi= t.

John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1085658877-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:14:52 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:49:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Tom, You know, sitting here in my recliner 12 feet away from the TV and my webtv setup, I couldn't see the pump. But up close as in the case of looking at a normal Computer Screen something does show up. So BLI looks like they are again listening to advice coming their way. Does the DGLE color look darker on this newest photo as well? Aside from the 2 very minor problems seen in the newest photo, (the Bell should be Black , not Brass and the mis-shaped Keystone Plate) this is one impressive looking J. Any reports on where this is being built yet? China or Korea? I am hoping Korea just like the T1's. Last week someone asked if any of the J's were assinged to the Pittsburgh Div, or something to that effect. I think the poster was reffering to any of the BLI J1's numbers, not just any J's. If I recall correctly from past conversations, one of these J's is a Pittburgh assigned Loco while the other 2 were Ohio assigned, probabby Columbus based. But you know, I don't remember which one was seen working the Pittsburgh Div. Maybe a little birdie will let me know later today. If so, I will share it here......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 1944 Assignments Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:34:24 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:11:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Has anyone heard when she is going to hit the stores? Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 13:09:07 -0500 To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 27, 2004, at 12:11 PM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > Has anyone heard when she is going to hit the stores? > Thanks, > Eric Eric, They're listing them for June delivery, so the "new" pre-production model is most likely the first one off the line . We've seen about a month lag from the last pre-production shots to delivery, so they may make that June date! Interestingly, their first car offering is still listed as due May 2004...not sure they are going to make that one and the K7A is listed for July. I wonder when we'll see the official I1 announcement? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 14:18:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 02:09 PM, Bruce Smith wrote: > On May 27, 2004, at 12:11 PM, ealauterbach@earthlink.net wrote: > >> Has anyone heard when she is going to hit the stores? >> Thanks, >> Eric > > Eric, > > They're listing them for June delivery, so the "new" pre-production > model is most likely the first one off the line . We've seen about > a month lag from the last pre-production shots to delivery, so they > may make that June date! Interestingly, their first car offering is > still listed as due May 2004...not sure they are going to make that > one and the K7A is listed for July. The second run of M1's is now shipping. I got my dealer invoice for the M1's two days before the invoice for the J1's. Not that there's a connection or anything, but it implies "soon". No word on cars. > > I wonder when we'll see the official I1 announcement? When will we see that first n scale announcement is what I want to know!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Park Varieties" Subject: [PRR] New Walthers Offering Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:47:18 -0400 A new dealer mailing I received from Walthers outlining new products=20 indicates they will be offering a Pennsy B60 baggage car in HO next = spring. Would any listmembers who worked on this project care to = comment on what B60 configuration(s) they will be offering?? Frank Brua ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44401.E3F61D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
A new dealer mailing I received from = Walthers=20 outlining new products

indicates they will be offering a = Pennsy B60=20 baggage car in HO next spring. Would any listmembers who worked on = this=20 project care to comment on what

B60 configuration(s) they will be=20 offering??

Frank Brua
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C44401.E3F61D70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:57:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Offering From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 03:47 PM, Park Varieties wrote: > A new dealer mailing I received from Walthers outlining new products > indicates=A0 they will be offering a Pennsy B60 baggage car in HO next=20= > spring.=A0 Would any listmembers who worked on this project care to=20 > comment on what > B60 configuration(s) they will be offering?? You can get them THIS SPRING from Bethlehem Car Works / InterMountain.=20= Albeit higher price, but probably a better model. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christopher Baker" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Walthers Offering Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 19:08:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <0A7C5D34-B018-11D8-8A34-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, Not to be a smarta$$ but I've seen no evidence that the BCW cars will be at the dealers this spring, and there's only about 4 more weeks of spring left for this year. Have you got any additional details on this offering that you can share? Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 2:57 PM To: Park Varieties Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Offering On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 03:47 PM, Park Varieties wrote: > A new dealer mailing I received from Walthers outlining new products > indicates� they will be offering a Pennsy B60 baggage car in HO next > spring.� Would any listmembers who worked on this project care to > comment on what > B60 configuration(s) they will be offering?? You can get them THIS SPRING from Bethlehem Car Works / InterMountain. Albeit higher price, but probably a better model. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 08:05:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Offering From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 27, 2004, at 07:08 PM, Christopher Baker wrote: > Not to be a smarta$$ but I've seen no evidence that the BCW cars will > be at > the dealers this spring, and there's only about 4 more weeks of spring > left > for this year. Have you got any additional details on this offering > that > you can share? According to InterMountain, the first paint scheme should be on the June release list. That'll be posted the second week of June. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:51:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? Jerry, I would think for painting wood and walls that matching the buff and brown combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (blue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might be a better choice. DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an interior application. Just my opinion. Rich Orr -------------------------------1085755905 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@p= ennsyrr.com writes:

Would there be any interest with the modelers=20= out there in having the
PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national= chain -- such as Home
Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Gre= en Locomotive Enamel
and/or Tuscan Red?

No, I'm not trying to pil= e work on them, but if enough people want
decent matches for painting wo= od in their layout rooms, perhaps a
standard would be in order so we don= 't all have to recreate the wheel.

I've decided DGLE would probably b= e too dark for the fascia, but would
work for legs and other lower level= benchwork. Then again, I could just
use black.

I am considering=20= Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to
the green that most=20= use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would
like it or not. Has anyo= ne tried it?

Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will pr= obably go
Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would=20= be a flat.

Carl, anything to say on the subject?
<= /DIV>
Jerry,

I would think for painting wood and walls that matching the buff and br= own combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (bl= ue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might be a better choice.&= nbsp; DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an interior application.=

Just my opinion.

Rich Orr
-------------------------------1085755905-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:57:32 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry and list, PPG paint no. 7167 is a very close match to PRR Tuscan Red The doors and trim of my house are painted that color! The house is brick and the windows are anodized dark bronze. Just had the doors repainted a few weeks ago. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > and/or Tuscan Red? > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > use black. > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ray Breyer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:53:41 -0500 I actually prefer a very dark colored fascia. I'll be painting mine semi-gloss black, with all support work and ceiling semi-gloss white to reflect light (any little bit helps). Personally, I think wood paneling is the worst for fascias, with light colors such as buff or tan being second. And hunter green's been done to death. Black's the preferred color for stage design. I'd think DGLE would work very well for a fascia color. It's nearly black and would draw attention towards the actual layout. Ray Breyer _____ From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of SUVCWORR@aol.com Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:52 AM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? Jerry, I would think for painting wood and walls that matching the buff and brown combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (blue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might be a better choice. DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an interior application. Just my opinion. Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C444A2.0A733690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

I actually prefer a very dark = colored fascia. I’ll be painting mine semi-gloss black, with all = support work and ceiling semi-gloss white to reflect light (any little bit helps). Personally, I think wood paneling is the worst for = fascias, with light colors such as buff or tan being second. And hunter = green’s been done to death. Black’s the preferred color for stage = design.

I’d think DGLE would work = very well for a fascia color. It’s nearly black and would draw = attention towards the actual layout.

Ray Breyer

From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = SUVCWORR@aol.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, = 2004 8:52 AM
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout = Room Paint

In a message dated 5/28/2004 10:17:49 AM Eastern = Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

Would there be any interest with the modelers out = there in having the
PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home =
Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel =
and/or Tuscan Red?

No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want
decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a
standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the = wheel.

I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would =
work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just =
use black.

I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to =
the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would
like it or not. Has anyone tried it?

Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go
Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a = flat.

Carl, anything to say on the subject?

Jerry,

I would think for painting wood and walls that = matching the buff and brown combination of structures or using the interior color of locomotives (blue gray with Indian Red tile floor - for F units) might = be a better choice. DGLE and Tuscan would seem to be too dark for an = interior application.

Just my opinion.

Rich Orr

------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C444A2.0A733690-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 11:02:01 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:50:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 May 2004 16:02:27.0217 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C1B0810:01C444CD] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Y'all Just IMHO but: How about this "committee" developed the paints with the manufacturer, such as "Behr's". And all the exact schemes needed. Dark Building, Light Building, etc. I can't remember the exact names off the top of my head. But y'all know what I mean. A few major colors. Layout's can then be the green, brown, tan or whatever. Behr is the one brand I remember sells to Home Depot or was it Lowes. But the idea Jerry presents is a good one. And would require a committee to do it. And are there enough People available to do this work? Some years ago, I had a house painter take my color cards I had of Building dark and light. Matched them by computer and paint my mobile home and shed. He did a great job, but time and sun (I'm in TX) have taken their toll. And that darn painter never returned the cards. And as y'all know, those cards are no longer available. Maybe next time, I'll use the two tone grey for my house. LOL So consider this my second for Jerry's nomination of a project very worthwhile to this group. I just noticed Gregg's mention of a Tuscan paint already available. But noted that he said "very close match". So if that is acceptable to this "committee", then could be part of the recommendations from the committee. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.689 / Virus Database: 450 - Release Date: 05/21/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 13:45:19 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers, I strongly prefer black or very dark fascia. My current choise is available at Lowe's, Blackwatch Green Interior Eggshell. It photographs like DGLE, but still helps the eye ignore the end of the world, as does flat black. But with station signs, delux or buff lettering etc. I think it has PRR class. Bob McKay DuBois PA Susquehanna Div. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:00:36 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry: I would advise you against the T-Red for the fascia. It will be overwhelming and distract from the layout. Use dark green or even black. That's the approach to theater.......paint anything around the stage black. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > and/or Tuscan Red? > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > use black. > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:51:40 -00 >From: jerry@pennsyrr.com >Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint >Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:30 -0400 From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 18:08:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: We have the Upland Green that Dave Barrow started years ago. A compromise with browns and greens of regular scenery so it doesn't distract. Black "frames" the layout, a shadow box technique I will use on my home layout in a room with other black/cherry furniture. Black is definitely the way to go to have something "disappear". Guys had all sorts of brilliant ideas to "scenic" a post in a yard---I suggested paint it flat black until you decide. Knew everyone would forget it was there then :-).And it is better than any "scenery" on a post I have ever seen. Slightly offtopic, but along the stage bit, Lyric Opera production of Madame Butterfly had stagehands on stage quite a few times during scenes---never noticed them dressed in complete black outfits. One of the MR guys warned about using black for the layout room ceiling though---his warning came from personal experience---just made room too dark. Can't remember if anyone tried it with floors but I think it creates same problem. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Reynolds" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > Jerry: > > I would advise you against the T-Red for the fascia. It will be > overwhelming and distract from the layout. Use dark green or even black. > That's the approach to theater.......paint anything around the stage black. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:02 AM > Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint > > > > Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the > > PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home > > Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel > > and/or Tuscan Red? > > > > No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want > > decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a > > standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. > > > > I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would > > work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just > > use black. > > > > I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to > > the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would > > like it or not. Has anyone tried it? > > > > Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go > > Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. > > > > Carl, anything to say on the subject? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 21:54:33 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg-Phila trip report Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and all: Made a quick trip to Philly and back today and can report the following: Welded rail is going in on the westbound (#2) track between Cork and Elizabethtown. All traffic is using #1 track between those points, necessitating a temporary block station at E-town. Newly installed welded rail is already in place on #2 track between Elizabethtown and Roy Interlocking. AFAIK, the Middletown-Lancaster stretch was/is the last stand of stick rail on the Harrisburg line with the possible exception of inside Tracks 2 and 3 Paoli-Zoo. Train 646 (P42 Number 2 and 3 Amfleet cars) this morning was not full. Train 647 this afternoon (P42+5 Amfleet) was almost SRO. 30th Street engine terminal and yard were stocked with P42s, one B40-8W, two AEM-7s, one HHL-8, variously colored Geep pumpkins (some orange, some platinum mist), one platinum mist GP38, one GP40TC, one Acela trainset, and (drum roll, please), PRR 120 + Warrior Ridge. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: RE: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 20:12:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry: I would recommend an earth tone for the fascia. One of the open HO layouts in the Cincinnati had an earthy green that I thought looked very good. Doug. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 7:03 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Layout Room Paint Would there be any interest with the modelers out there in having the PRRT&HS paint committee work with a national chain -- such as Home Depot -- to come up with a formulary for Dark Green Locomotive Enamel and/or Tuscan Red? No, I'm not trying to pile work on them, but if enough people want decent matches for painting wood in their layout rooms, perhaps a standard would be in order so we don't all have to recreate the wheel. I've decided DGLE would probably be too dark for the fascia, but would work for legs and other lower level benchwork. Then again, I could just use black. I am considering Tuscan Red for the fascia. Pretty stark contrast to the green that most use and is pretty standard. Not sure if I would like it or not. Has anyone tried it? Also want to do the wood trim, such as the door. Will probably go Tuscan, though this would be a gloss whereas the fascia would be a flat. Carl, anything to say on the subject? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/28/04 Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 23:35:48 -0400 From: "PRR-Talk" Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/28/04 Subject: Layout Room Paint From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 10:02:30 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 00:50:42 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Room Paint -- including multi-deck... Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry/all: 2 comments... 1st -- with Home Depot and the like -- I have found them unable to make even a "standard color" (one they have the specs for) look identical between 2 different gallons purchased a year or so apart. Even if you have a formula, there would be certain variations. 2nd -- with fascia color. I have seen layouts with dark green/black and with light green/brown earth tones. I would say 2 different effects are achieved. The dark colors make the layout standout and it is more obvious you are at the "edge of the world". This can be GOOD if you are trying to draw attention to the scenery. With the earth tones, they blend into the scenery more and there is less to draw your eye (which can be good if you are trying for this effect)... One other important note -- I saw one multi-deck layout with the earth tones and I hated it... Sky blended into fascia into scenery into sky into fascia into scenery... and I actually found it annoying after about 1/2 hour looking. The layout owner must have agreed because I went back about a year later and it was forest green... All of a sudden, your eye was drawn to the different decks of the layout it it seemed more "soothing".. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: [PRR] MicroTrains PRR Tri-Level Auto Racks Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 22:59:24 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40B640756E867447A01C4C7BFEE454EB05BD0257@tpc-hrt-exmb1.tribune.ad.trb> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: MicroTrains has n scale PRR Tri-level auto racks coming in June. Can anyone tell me what year the PRR first used these cars? Thanks, Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:57:39 -0400 From: Owen Thorne Subject: [PRR] PRR KASE tower enquiry Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm seeking photos or drawings of PRR's KASE tower near Sunbury, PA as it appeared in the 1940-60 period for modeling project. Also: When was it rebuilt or replaced? When was it razed? What was the color scheme? Anybody know where the interlocking diagrams can be located? Other structures in Sunbury, PRR or RDG, need photos as well. Other Shamokin Branch and Norry area fans and modellers could contact us off-line if you want to exchange info on transition era trains and facilities. Jim Herzog out there? Thanks, owen thorne -- Owen Thorne Fairhill, MD owen@udel.edu 1-410-620-2078 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:03:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: query From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: [PRR] Rockville Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 17:59:48 -0400 I'm still looking for the footprint dimensions of Rockville Tower. = Always figured I'd just whip out my camera and measuring tape. I do = have estimates from published photos, but would appreciate dimensions = and exterior detail shots. Thanks. Bob McKay DuBois, PA Susquehanna Div. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C445A6.BB7F5B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I'm still looking for = the footprint=20 dimensions of Rockville Tower. Always figured I'd just whip out my = camera=20 and measuring tape. I do have estimates from published photos, but = would=20 appreciate dimensions and exterior detail shots. = Thanks.

Bob McKay

DuBois, = PA

Susquehanna=20 Div.
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C445A6.BB7F5B30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:43:20 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Could anybody point me in the direction of some interior photos of an REA bulding operation? I was looking into building an REA building for the railroad club I belong to, and do a cutaway view showing the interior of the building. Any and all help is appreciated. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:43:20 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Could anybody point me in the direction of some interior photos of an REA bulding operation? I was looking into building an REA building for the railroad club I belong to, and do a cutaway view showing the interior of the building. Any and all help is appreciated. Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] What if the PRR had Budd RDCs? From: "mkwb@excite.com" Message-Id: <20040601215554.DCF5C299D3@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What if the PRR had decided to purchase Rail Diesel Cars from Budd? What kind of PRR-specific modifications or additions might have been made (that would be worth modeling)? Which type (RDC-1, 2, 3 or 4) would the PRR have purchased the most? What might have been the number series? Where on the system might they have been used and how? I like to think the paint scheme might have been all-stainless steel, with black lettering in the letterboard (extended Roman font early, Helvetica or Arial later in the immediate pre-merger years), and keystone logos at both ends. Or, how about tuscan red letterboards with gold leaf Roman lettering (kind of like the CP's early scheme)? Opinions? Ideas? I'd like to model myself some hypothetical PRR RDC cars in HO scale, and would like to hear some ideas. Thanks in advance, Mike Bartel _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] What if the PRR had Budd RDCs? From: "mkwb@excite.com" Message-Id: <20040601215554.DCF5C299D3@xprdmailfe21.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What if the PRR had decided to purchase Rail Diesel Cars from Budd? What kind of PRR-specific modifications or additions might have been made (that would be worth modeling)? Which type (RDC-1, 2, 3 or 4) would the PRR have purchased the most? What might have been the number series? Where on the system might they have been used and how? I like to think the paint scheme might have been all-stainless steel, with black lettering in the letterboard (extended Roman font early, Helvetica or Arial later in the immediate pre-merger years), and keystone logos at both ends. Or, how about tuscan red letterboards with gold leaf Roman lettering (kind of like the CP's early scheme)? Opinions? Ideas? I'd like to model myself some hypothetical PRR RDC cars in HO scale, and would like to hear some ideas. Thanks in advance, Mike Bartel _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: k4sb@niia.net Subject: RE: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 03:11:24 -00 From: johnf2384@suscom.net Subject: RE: [PRR] REA Interior Photos Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:43:20 -0400 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention side trip Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 12:23:43 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, indeed. My two friends and I are visiting Dayton on the Tuesday prior to the Convention. Looking forward to it immensely. Later the following week we'll be visiting an aeronautical engineer friend up in Michigan who worked on the X-15 and the YF-12. Other side trips we've got planned are: Trainspotting at Fostoria. BelleVue NKP Museum Whitewater Valley Railroad Noblesville Railroad Museum Elkhart NYC Museum ( no comments, please :-) Henry Ford Museum Now I've just got to find the energy to do it all. Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Convention side trip > For those of you planning to go to Dayton on the way home or who were planning to by-pass Dayton by taking I-71 to Columbus there is a non-PRR item of interest to some in Dayton. Wright Patterson Air Force base on the NE side of Dayton is the home of the Air Force museum. Planes on display range from Wirght Brothers era through the SR-71. Well worth a couple of hours or more of time. Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 00:54:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] H. S. Kerbaugh, H. K. Porter, PRR projects (long) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Bob and the Group: Regarding Kerbaugh and the Kittanning Point entry. About 1899, Horseshoe Curve was widened to three tracks, and again in 1900 to four tracks. Work was proceeding all along the main line as a result of A.J. Cassatt's project to widen the entire New York-Pgh main line to a four-track standard. Cassatt came into office in 1899 and started to rebuild the railroad. Drake & Stratton got a lot of the work, too. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. robert netzlof wrote: >A few months ago I got a copy of the H. K. Porter Catalog reprint >published by the NMRA. In the construction list, my eye was caught by >several "bulk orders" by H. S. Kerbaugh. What may be more interesting were the destinations and dates. In several cases I know from other sources that PRR was doing major work >at the places noted and around the dates given. Here's the list: > >Johnstown...... 1898 Dec 1 >.................... Aug 1 >Kittaning Pt... 1899 Jun 2 >Irwin.......... 1900 Mar 1 >Pittsburgh..... 1901 Feb 3 >.................... Mar 1 >.................... Aug 3 >Summerhill Sta. 1901 Feb 5 >.................... Apr 4 >.................... May 5 >.................... Jun 4 >.................... Sep 4 >............... 1902 Jan 2 >.................... Feb 1 >Fayette City... 1901 Nov 2 >W. Brownsville. 1901 Dec 2 >California..... 1901 Dec 2 >Altoona........ 1902 Jun 2 >Elizabeth Furn. 1902 Nov 5 >.................... Dec 5 >Maryville...... 1903 Jan 4 >Philadelphia... 1903 Mar 4 >.................... Apr 1 >.................... Aug 3 >............... 1905 Aug 13 >............... 1910 Jun 3 >.................... Aug 2 >............... 1911 May 4 >St. Paris, OH.. 1906 Sep 6 >.................... Oct 8 >Pitcairn....... 1906 Nov 6 >.................... Dec 1 >Livermore...... 1906 Dec 5 >Blairsville.... 1906 Oct 3 >.................... Nov 1 >.................... Dec 2 >Pequea, OH..... 1906 Sep 2 >.................... Nov 2 >.................... Dec 7 >Chickies....... 1906 Nov 2 >Bolivar........ 1906 Nov 2 >McCalls Ferry.. 1906 Nov 2 > >It could be that some of those engines in the list for Philadelphia >actually went somewhere else. That is, I'm taking the place name to >be the "ship to" address. It is possible that here or there one of >the names might really be the "billing address". I have no way of >knowing. > >It may be interesting that through Feb 1901, the customer is given as >"H. S. Kerbaugh". Orders after that date are listed as "H. S. >Kerbaugh, Inc." > >I've tried to spell names as I found them in the book cited (but >"Pequea" worries me). It is possible that I missed an order here or >there. The list is presented in the book in order by construction >number, one locomotive per line. Some of the quantities above are the >sums of several separate entries in the book which were interspersed >among other entries. That is, I could easily have counted or added >incorrectly. > >It would be interesting to know what was going on at each of those >locations in the months following the dates shown in the list. >Whatever it was, it would seem that H. S. Kerbaugh could have said >"The Pennsylvania Railroad has been very, very good to me." > >===== >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 20:47:15 -0500 Hi Doug--The bracket--actually two different ones--comes with Calscale = 190-400, which is the correct horn. Use Detail Associates 229-1012 = "Pyle Conversion Plate" for the headlights; scrape off original = headlight, glue on the DA part, wait until it is dry before drilling new = holes for lights. Not hard if you are very careful. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Day=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 7:31 PM Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn bracketand dual vertical headlights. List, Probably a bunch of members away in Cinci this weekend, but does = anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. Also need manufacturer and = numbers for the dual vertical headlights. Modelling the PRR Lines West. Doug ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C42FBD.7CA1F610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Doug--The bracket--actually two = different=20 ones--comes with Calscale 190-400, which is the correct horn. Use = Detail=20 Associates 229-1012 "Pyle Conversion Plate" for the = headlights; scrape off=20 original headlight, glue on the DA part, wait until it is dry = before=20 drilling new holes for lights. Not hard if you are very=20 careful.

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas=20 Day

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 = 7:31=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] RS3 Horn = bracketand dual=20 vertical headlights.

List,

Probably a bunch of members away in = Cinci this=20 weekend, but does anybody market the norn bracker for an RS3. = Also need=20 manufacturer and numbers for the dual vertical = headlights.

Modelling the PRR Lines = West.

Doug =
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C42FBD.7CA1F610-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 00:01:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi John--You want isopropyl alcohol; my bottle says 91%. Steve Hoxie Pensacola Fl ----- Original Message ----- From: "beth capl caples" To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:45 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk off subject- stripping proto 2000 paint > I was to use alcohol from the drugstore that is 90% alcohol. When I > asked for some. The Pharmacist had about 4 different varieties to choose > from. Isopropyl, rubbing, methyl, ethol, denatured, butyl, etc. He > went on to say what each one was used for and so I was so overwhelmed > with information. I had no idea which type was what I needed. > Could someone please tell me which alcohol type I need ? > Thank You, John Caples > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners Question Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 11:37:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: No evidence I have ever seen of any C-liners in passenger service on PRR. No steam generators for one thing. For another, they were geared for freight. Finally, by the time they came along (1950) , there was already a surplus of passenger motive power and due to lack of reliability the non-EMD passenger units for the most part were being shifted the other way, to freight. Even the dual-service FP7s began to mainly run freight except Christmas mail trains. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Miller" > Did the PRR ever use Brunswick green Fairbanks-Morse C-Liners to haul > passenger trains or were they confined to freight service? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Questions -- Lines West help needed Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:29:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4095B569.9080101@att.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dan, The PRR passenger steam locomotives were serviced at the 55th st enginehouse, located at the south end of the 55th st yard on the PFtW&C. I have Chicago Division ETTs dated Sep 1934, April 1946, and April 1951. All show all classes of steam except B, C, & H restricted from the Englewood Connecting line. However, I also have another April 1951 ETT with a bunch of general notices pasted in that show the restrictions for all steam classes lifted due to the rebuilding of the Englewood Connecting line. My speculation is that about this time (4/51) the diesel shop at the 16th street coach yards was up and running and the 55th st enginehouse was closed. Freight steam at 55th st yard could then traverse the Englewood Connecting line to be serviced at the 59th st enginehouse. However, I am still trying to obtain factual evidence as to exactly when the 16th st diesel shop opened and the 55th st enginehouse closed. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- Am helping a friend who's grappling with the scope of PRR operations in Chicagoland in preparation for his task of scriptwriting for a PRR video in the works. Can anyone verify where PRR serviced its passenger steam engines in Chicago? My assumption is that light engines cut off their trains at CUS, backed light out past the South Branch Drawbridge, crossed Alton Jct., and ran to EC, where they left the PFtW&C main line and used PRR's short (2.3-mile) Englewood Connecting RR to get to 59th St. Yard, which was over on the Panhandle main line. Is this correct? Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Annual Meeting Comments Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:37:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" K4's are coming from Broadway Limited. Assuming that scuttlebutt is true (BLI doesn't seem to be as concerned about advance rumors as some, probably because they seem to have a flow going, hopefully cash flow as well, or they are less threatened in the non-Big Boy, non-cab-forward steam market by potential competitors for now) , they must have heard me bending Pete Reinhold's ear at his booth at our club's swap meet on what I consider the most needed Pennsy loco (on a par with an H10---or H9) :-). I was concerned that the fact there were already two shall-we-politely-say less-than-perfect ones already out there might mean BLI would give it a pass. I can't wait to have a DCC-friendly,sound-equipped K4 with correct driver diameter, accurate stoker tender, and decent tractive effort. Or two . With and without front-end modernization. Why do I think they will also produce 3768 and/or 3678 as well? (now that is my rumor---not theirs :-)) I must have had a premonition as I sold two of my Bachmann K4s at that swap meet. If the scuttlebutt is true and both the K4 and I1 are ahead of the H class, now I know where I will shift my Soundtraxx unit from my Bowser M1: to my brass H10. I'll do without the banshee whistle for now. Anyone know if any H10s got a multichime whistle later in life? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Annual Meeting Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:27:26 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040501.151330.3072.0.caples5@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: This year's annual meeting was excellent due to the great work done by the Cincinnati crew. They deserve a big thanks. The highlight for me was the dinner in the spectacular rotunda of the CUT. This is truly an Art Deco architectural gem, and the adaptive reuse as a museum center was very well done. Tower A was great with its view of the massive Queensgate Yard. Although a number of regulars from the east did not attend, it was good to see the great turnout overall (about the same number of other annual meetings). The program's were well done and I have to also mention the great work done by Ted Andrew's for his program on Warsaw, Indiana. This was one of the best examples of analysis of primary source data that was synthesized into a unique look at PRR operations, much of which is relevant system-wide. Ted received train sheets (tower operators records of every train) that were rescued from the tower in Warsaw days before it was bulldozed. The train sheets covered the entire year of 1965 and included train number, lead loco number, time, and time at the previous tower. From this raw data, Ted was able to digest the information to show an entire year's worth of every train's on-time performance, speed, locomotive assignments. Much of this analysis was illustrated with graphic charts. This information and level of detail is probably not available from any other sources. I look forward to seeing this in the Keystone. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 09:53:36 -0400 From: Ken Nesbitt [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com] Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal questions size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nesbitt AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Juniata Terminal Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:29:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Maintenance Locations Indicated in MP229's From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <488C22BE-9DDF-11D8-80FB-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry I didn't include this the first time. In case anyone out there recognizes names... On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 11:25 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > If I go to the Philadelphia Division pages, for instance, I will see > foreman codes of 013 and 015. But where are they? I suspect one might > be Harrisburg and one might be Enola. I suspect 013 is Enola, as many > freight steam locos are indicated that code. And the GG1's bear > 015...so I suspect that is Harrisburg. 013 in 1954 was D. E. Schlegel. Was he in Enola? 015 was T. A. Foust. Was he in Harrisburg? > > If I go to the Middle Division pages, the passenger locos -- all of > which were supposedly serviced at Harrisburg -- show 023. So 023 is > likely a Harrisburg location. A lot of the freight locos bear 021, > which I suspect is Enola. 021 was P. M. Maston. Was he in Enola? 023 was B. J. Murtha. Was he in Harrisburg? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:32:54 -0400 Subject: Private: Re: [PRR] No More RailFanning in Central PA? Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 11:34:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] H30's -- We Need Them! From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 10:31 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > In looking over the 1954 roster info (see other post), it became > painfully obvious that we need H30 covered hoppers! > > As of 1954, these were the most prevalent covered hopper (1,325) and > there were more than four times as many of these as the next closest > subclass (H32 and H34 each of 300). H30s outnumber H30A by a significant margin (1325 to 250 in Oct 53). It is interesting that we have only recently gotten an H30 in HO (the new F&C release). Supposedly both are coming sometime in styrene. > The drawings show these as "Cement Hoppers". Were they used only for > cement? I kind of doubt it. Yes, initially these cars were built to haul cement. Subsequently some additional commodities were added like sand, but in your period (1953-54) grain was still hauled mostly in box cars. I would primarily dedicate them to cement. Mine will be exclusively for cement hauling > > Were they built by the PRR? If not, did any other roads have them? PRR built (although I'm struggling to confirm that), and unique to the PRR. H30/H30A continued in revenue company and MOW service into Conrail. Note that TKM #8 has an in depth review of the H30/H30A by Al Buchan and Bob Johnson - its the most complete and authoritative source on H30 hoppers. And of course for those who don't leave Rob Schoenberg's site open 24/7, his page has some good data too...http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=H30 Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 14:46:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Setting out sleepers From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, May 6, 2004, at 02:36 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Where and how many sleepers were set out between New York and Chicago? > What trains had set outs? What were the set out locations for diners? You need to preface your query with an era. As for 1954, the "24 Hours at Harrisburg" essay I did years ago shows all of the setouts and pickups that took place there... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ The Makeup of Trains books will have a lot of that information as well, but again, pick a date! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 21:27:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] train consolidation (Cleveland and Detroit) From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 14:43:54 +0000 >From: Jerry Britton >Subject: [PRR] Steamtown -- Altoona Museum -- 1361 >Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 10:07:23 -0400 Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:53:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] train consolidation From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:35:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: MS60 From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It was separate in through the 1930's or so. We have definitive proof (original PRR docs) that it was not later. On Friday, May 7, 2004, at 03:17 PM, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > Do you remember the discussion about the MS60 class? I found a picture > of > #2542 on > > page 6 of "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I think it reinforces my > statement that this > > was a separate & distinct class. What do you think? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR@yahoogroups.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 class vs. MS60 plans Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 16:50:46 -0400 To: RickTipton@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 8, 2004, at 4:40 PM, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Since we have been hashing about the poor old MS60 ever since=20 > PRR-Talk started up, I'd like to suggest we give it a rest and admit=20= > that we just don't know.=A0 Personally, I'm hoping more info = eventually=20 > surfaces from the PRRT&HS archives in Lewistown.=A0 But as of now, = there=20 > just isn't enough information on this subject to be satisfactory. What, Rick, no interest in an "MS60-talk" mailing list? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "bobspf@wi.rr.com" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Troop Cars Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 17:47:51 -0400 Return-Path: bobspf@wi.rr.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2004 21:47:51.0647 (UTC) FILETIME=[46FAD6F0:01C4360F] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Original Message: ----------------- From: Ted Andrews Ted_Andrews@msn=2Ecom Did these cars ever roam PRR tracks?=20 A=2E Yes=2E I am away from home, but the statistics for the percentage of returning troops from the Pacific who lived in the Northeast is extremely high=2E Almost any car used in troop service probably made it to the PRR=2E= And the kitchen cars lasted into the Korean war, as the Keystone articles on the Ohio wreck documents=2E Did they ever run combined with the Ex-X32 cars that were converted to troop service during WW2?=20 A=2E Dunno=2E Can't imagine why not=2E What was the typical consist of these troop trains on the Pennsy?=20 A=2E Anywhere from one troop Pullman (which by itself could constitute a "Main") to 3 or 4 "sets" which (going from memory) were 1 kitchen car and= 4 or 5 troop sleepers each=2E Plus headend baggage/express cars=2E Intermi= xed here and there with standard Pullmans=2E Were P70 coaches ever thrown into the consist?=20 A=2E See the Korean War era Ohio wreck=2E 2 X29s, 2 kitchen cars, 2 PUC??= and multiple P70=2E In a way almost anything goes for troop trains, so getting= hold of specific consists is not a bad way to get ideas=2E I will probably use about six troop sleepers, a kitchen, standard Pullman,= plus X29 and B60 for my abbreviated train=2E Or a portion of them on the head or tail end of a regular consist=2E =20 Bob Zoeller -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 20:42:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Troop trains and the Ohio wreck From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > In the recent thread re Walthers troop cars, are you referring to the > wreck on the Panhandle near West Lafayette OH? Can any one tell me the > date and the power on both trains? Also, which Keystone covered this? > > Fred Rea Fred et al, The Keystone, Vol 24, no 4, Winter 1991 covers the wreck of a troop train on May 21, 1945 in Piqua Ohio. I don't beleive this was the wreck being refferred to, since Korea was mentioned, but this consist was 17 cars. Of the cars detailed in the article, Troop Sleepers 7822 and 7735 flank Troop Kitchen K-178. Flanking these cars are 12-1 Pullman heavy weights (Tourist cars). The ssame issue also covers the collision of a B&O and PRR trains on March 22, 1942 at the B&O/PRR diamonds in Pequa. Since the B&O train was mainly made up of loaded tank cars, the results were pretty intense... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 10:42:57 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] Joint terminal operation Thread-Index: AcQ3Z0F0kxRD/4WYTRqBknN7h8nS1wAB0QLw From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Andy Miller" , , "PRR-FAX" , "PRR-Talk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 May 2004 15:42:57.0602 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1F03220:01C4376E] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Cresline served both. Separate facilities existed in Detroit and Toledo. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:38 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; 'PRR-FAX'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] Joint terminal operation All this recent talk of Cleveland Union terminal and the PRR's refusal to use it leads me to wonder if it was a case of bitter rivalry with the NYC. Besides Cincinnati, were there any other terminals which serviced both the NYC and the PRR? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Joint terminal operation, Erie PA Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:59:41 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2739.300 In-Reply-To: <87.b987a9b.2dd2c700@aol.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Does anyone know the station used by the Bessemer - was it the Union Sta. or did it have its own? The B&LE had their own passenger and freight station on the south side of 12th Street between Sassafras and Peach Streets, two blocks directly north of Union Station. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] MSTS PRR equipment Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 10:50:52 -0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: <051220041349.26655.40A22B59000E9CF50000681F2158766720FF8D8D8F9D9B@att.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Fascinating, but I have a few questions. Didn't the P70 have = individual, but non-reclining seats. I think their interior artwork is based on an = MP54 rather than a P70. And what is that Pullman they show?? Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:49 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] MSTS PRR equipment If you run Microsoft Train simulator you might want to check out this = web page for PRR equipment they will be releasing at some point. Click on = the ABOUT button for some pictures of M1, L1, K4, P70's and other stuff. http://www.trainartisan.com/talink.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Headend cars Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:07:49 -0400 Steve Sandifer's site - a genuine digital treasure. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:13 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Headend cars While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across this: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm Enjoy! Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C438F3.AC94AE50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
Steve = Sandifer's site -=20 a genuine digital treasure.

regards,

Andy=20 Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent:=20 Thursday, May 13, 2004 8:13 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Headend=20 cars

While looking for info. on horse cars, I came across = this:  =20

http://www= .trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR/PRR-BE.htm

Enjoy!

Evan = Leisey
RCT&HS=20 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ=20 2003
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C438F3.AC94AE50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:42:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Turntable and roundhouse questions Question 2: It is dependent on how many degree between stalls (radial tracks) as to how far back the roundhouse sat. The greater the number of tracks, the further back the front wall was located to allow for the door framing between adjacent tracks. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS 7487 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ 2003 -------------------------------1084509740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Question 2: It is dependent on how many degree between sta= lls (radial tracks) as to how far back the roundhouse sat. The greater= the number of tracks, the further back the front wall was located to allow=20= for the door framing between adjacent tracks.

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS 7487
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ 2003<= /DIV> -------------------------------1084509740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] Name the Painting Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 06:46:16 -0400 John, That's a beautiful painting. My name submission is "THE GATHERING" -- seems like they've all = gathered together at the same time from afar and filled all the tracks. Chuck Friedlein ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RamblingReck=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:29 PM Subject: [PRR] Name the Painting Guys, At the Cincy convention, I picked up a painting that Peter Lerro did = for me. The painting shows a northbound Philly local and two southbound = trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and #149 The Afternoon Keystone. The = Keystone also carried coahes and a sleeping car for The Southerner. The = Keystone is running late because it should be out of Wilmington 38 = minutes ahead of The Silver Meteor. The time frame is the summer of = 1969 when I moved to Wilmington. I often rode the local to Philly for = late afternoon or diner meetings, and I can remember seeing the Seaboard = tail car and wishing I was on it instead of the rickety old MP54's. = Pete spent two years working on the painting. We spent a lot of time on = research to make sure the trains, time, etc. were accurate, but we never = came up with a name for the painting. You can see the painting at my = website. =20 http://southerndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm Pet Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name = that we select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and = nonappealable. John Ryan ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C43CA3.D13BA7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

John,

That's a beautiful painting.

My name submission is "THE GATHERING" -- seems = like they've=20 all gathered together at the same time from afar and filled all = the=20 tracks.

Chuck Friedlein

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RamblingReck

To: PRR-Talk

Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 = 11:29=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Name the = Painting

Guys,

At the Cincy convention, I picked up a = painting=20 that Peter Lerro did for me. The painting shows a northbound = Philly=20 local and two southbound trains - #171 The Silver Meteor and = #149 The=20 Afternoon Keystone. The Keystone also carried coahes and = a=20 sleeping car for The Southerner. The Keystone is running late = because=20 it should be out of Wilmington 38 minutes ahead of The Silver = Meteor. =20 The time frame is the summer of 1969 when I moved to = Wilmington. I=20 often rode the local to Philly for late afternoon or diner meetings, = and I=20 can remember seeing the Seaboard tail car and wishing I was on it = instead of=20 the rickety old MP54's. Pete spent two years working on the=20 painting. We spent a lot of time on research to make sure the = trains,=20 time, etc. were accurate, but we never came up with a name for the=20 painting. You can see the painting at my website. =

http://southe= rndepot.home.att.net/Depot-photos.htm

Pet=20 Lerro and I will have a prize for the person who submits a name that = we=20 select. The decision of the judge (me) will be final and=20 nonappealable.

John Ryan

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C43CA3.D13BA7A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track scales Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:51:04 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Norm, If you weigh each truck of an uncoupled freight car separately and add the total, you will get the weight of the car. Many scales could not weigh cars over 40 feet in length, so each truck was weighed on cars over 40 feet long. Of course, with all the extra moves, plus the addition, this was just a mite time consuming. :<) Can't answer your inquiry about Margie Yard. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: [PRR] Track scales > A couple of questions: > 1. How long a car could the scale at Margie yard in Philadelpia handle? > 2. How were cars longer than the scale weighed or were they all designed with 86' cars in mind? > Thank you, Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 09:29:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Modeler From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, May 21, 2004, at 09:11 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Has there been any determination made how long the back issues will > remain available? If they will be eliminated at some point could we > have some notice so we can start printing them out? Thanks, Norm Bell This, and server space issues, were alluded to at the annual meeting. However, prez Al Buchan has since told me there are no space issues, so I would expect them to remain indefinitely. (I had offered adjunct space for archives, under the prrths.com domain name, but was told it wasn't needed. I'd certainly be willing to maintain a mirror site for the PDF versions.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harmantas, Andrew G TRADOC DCSOPS&T" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 10:14:38 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 19:40:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] "Coal Goes To War" From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal References: In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Gents, > > Does anybody make this decal in HO? On these same lines, > what classes were covered besides the H21? I was looking > at doing a post-war fleet that where some had this painted > out and others didn't. photo evidence - GLCA 250391 circa 1942 Other war slogans: H31B 220977 "Buy War bonds" circa 1947 (Keystone Dec 1983, p26) H31B 221265 "Buy War bonds" circa 12/46 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open Hoppr Cars) H31B 221011 "Buy War bonds" circa 5/47 (Teichmoeller PRR Steel Open Hoppr Cars) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:34:24 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] U.S. Government Ground Storage Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 5/26/2004 8:33:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > I've discovered an area in north Harrisburg that, according to the > CT1000E, 1945 edition, had four tracks dedicated to "U.S. Government > Ground Storage". This was in the Lucknow area, just east of the > Rockville Bridge. > > For reference, the CT1000 entries for the area included: > > Cattle Car Disinfecting Siding > M. W. Storehouse > Lucknow Scrap Dock > U.S. Government Ground Storage Nos. 1, 2, 3 & 4 > > Would this likely have been four storage tracks where cars sat for > later use? > > Or four sidings in an area where stuff was offloaded for storage on the > ground? > > Makes a big difference in the size of the facility and the scope of > operations. Jerry, I am going to take a GUESS at this and say they are storage tracks for shippments out of the Naval Depot at Camp Hill or there abouts. Check the CT1000 for actual tracks at the Naval Depot. Then for cars check the ORER for USNX and DOD listings for 1953. This would also be a convenitent place to store cars for shippments in and out of Fort Letterkenny (armour storage center). If the cars were to be stored on PRR tracks, the Gov't would be charged storage fees. So having Gov't owned storage tracks located near Enola and the DOD sites would make sense. But then this is the gov't we are taking about. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 17:46:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] JMRI interface From: Gene Nowlan From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:29:37 -0400 John, Ken, Group. About a year ago I had the same experience although I didn't get to meet = Lee. When I was there the two guys at the hobby shop went out of there = way to find me a part I was looking for. It was an old Penn Line model = and they found one for me. =20 SamV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MLiebeskin@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 7:54 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 05/27/04, Bowser Ken, Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I took a = rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in = Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly the = same experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc. The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day = although I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding. I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time for = visit. John Liebeskind ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C443C4.BF151F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
John, Ken, Group.

About a year ago I had the same experience although I didn't get to = meet=20 Lee. When I was there the two guys at the hobby shop went out of there = way to=20 find me a part I was looking for. It was an old Penn Line model and they = found=20 one for me.

SamV

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MLiebeskin@aol.com

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 = 7:54=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk = Digest -=20 05/27/04, Bowser

Ken,

Thank heaven some good things never change. Several years ago I = took a=20 rather long detour on the way home from Harrisburg and stopped in=20 Montoursville at English's Train store to look around and had nearly = the same=20 experience that you did. I was taken to the shop, etc.

The Englishes seem to be very out-going folks; they made my day = although=20 I only purchased some parts for a Q2 I was scratchbuilding.

I would reccomend that anyone in the area should take the time = for=20 visit.

John Liebeskind
------=_NextPart_000_0091_01C443C4.BF151F20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Bruce Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PA and Bowser N8 Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:26:10 -0500 To: k4sb@niia.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On May 26, 2004, at 11:15 PM, k4sb@niia.net wrote: > Then we met Lee. We talked about the N8. You do know the kit was > done as an =93as built when new=94 model? It has the correct trucks = and > coupler. Adding the cushioned draft gear and other trucks are what > modeling is all about. The railings and crash posts are a concession > to cost. In my opinion if a mold was created to represent the C > channels was made the cost for the car would exceed 60.00. He really > did the correct design. I will grant you that the N8 is a HUGE improvement over previous Bowser=20= offerings. However, since all N8s had cushioned draft gear there is=20 really no excuse for not including it on the model. It would make no=20 difference in the cost and it is such an obvious feature that its=20 omission seems to be another case of Bowser not really caring to "get=20 it right". As for the crash posts - that's more of design than cost=20 issue. It could be done, but I'm betting that Mr. English didn't want=20= to add more complexity to the kit. If cost really is an issue, either=20= Mr. English is paying too much for his tooling, or more likely, his=20 production is simply not enough to justify the tooling and the modeler=20= is paying a subsidy to see a desired prototype. > Now everyone just buy a dozen so new PRR > cars can be tooled up. I don't know...I want to pat Bowser on the back for the N8, but I also=20= want Lee to understand that the N8 is far from a state of the art kit=20 and as such, its cost is out of line with the marketplace. =20 Fortunately, the N8 is out of my period so I'm in the clear. I'm=20 saving my pennies for the styrene I1, B60B and... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!