Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:23:54 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AC freight symbols From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] AC freight symbols Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:43:26 -0500 Aaahhhhh, those mystery AC trains!! Fred and the List: "AC" trains were on the Ft. Wayne line in 1965 as well. There were 2; = AC-1 and AC-2. They appear to run almost daily. AC-1 would go past = Warsaw in the evening after 10pm. AC-2 typically arrived in Warsaw in = the mid-afternoon. It is interesting to not that both of these trains = did not appear in the ETT of 1965 while they ran almost every day. The = typical motive power on these trains were 2nd generation diesels like = GP-30's GP-35's and U-25-B's. The Pennsy had a fragmented and inconsistent system of naming freights. = This is one area where the Standard Railroad of the World, wasn't. From = what I can tell, the Pennsy had 4 basic categories where freight symbols = could fall under: The first train symbols are Commodity-based. Trains like "TT-1" (an = intermodal Truc-Train), "LCL-1" (Less than CarLoad), "FW-8" (Feed Water = livestock), "NF-6" (Non - Feed water livestock) were all named based on = the commodites that they hauled. However, one cannot tell what the = origin and destination of these trains are just by looking at the = symbols The second train symbols were Origin-Destination based. Trains like CB-1 = / CB-2 were Chicago to Boston and CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville. Note = with these train symbols, one can determine the origin and destination = but cannot determine what the train is hauling. Would "AC" trains fall = in this category? If the "C" stood for Chicago, what did the "A" stand = for? Another train that may fall in this category is CS-8. The third category are "semi-destination" train symbols. Westbound = trains like WC-5 stood for "West Coast" trains. Likewise "SWC-1" trains = on the Panhandle were heading for the "South West Coast". These trains = did not go all of the way to the coast but rather interchanged with = railroads in Chicago and St. Louis that did. Also, one cannot tell from = the symbol on the EXACT origin and destination of the train. The last category were "divisional" trains. These were typically locals = however, the names were not consistent with other divisions. The Ft. = Wayne Division locals were named FW-13, FW 24, etc. Please note that = this is in conflict with the FW-8 live stock train mentioned above. In a = neighboring division, the Logansport Division trains were named with a = "LD-" prefix; I read somewhere that LD stood for "Logansport Dispatch." And were are talking only about the mid-1960's!!! Pick up a number of = ETT's a few years apart and you will see an alphabet soup of train = symbols that come and go as quickly as the sun sets. So, what does AC mean? How about CS-8? or GRE-2? If any of you out there = have information on these trains, please reply back to Fred and me. I = am giving a presentation on Warsaw at this years convention and will be = discussing train symbols briefly. Any information will be greatly = appreciated. Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Ripley=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: [PRR] AC freight symbols Hi All, I am hoping someone can supply some information about several freight symbols. In the Western Region ETT of 10/30/66, 2 new freight schedules are = AC-2 and AC-4. Both originate in Chicago, and travel the Ft. Wayne main to the = east end of the Region (Lucas, OH). However, the Central Region ETT of the same date shows neither train! Conversely, this timetable shows a westbound on the Ft. Wayne line, = AC-1, that leaves the Central Region at Lucas, but is not listed on the = Western Region schedules. Does anyone know anything about these trains? Thanks, Fred R. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40463.505A8700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Aaahhhhh, those mystery AC trains!!
 
Fred and the List:
 
"AC" trains were on the Ft. Wayne line in 1965 as well. There were = 2; AC-1=20 and AC-2. They appear to run almost daily. AC-1 would go past Warsaw in = the=20 evening after 10pm. AC-2 typically arrived in Warsaw in the = mid-afternoon. It is=20 interesting to not that both of these trains did not appear in the ETT = of 1965=20 while they ran almost every day. The typical motive power on these = trains were=20 2nd generation diesels like GP-30's GP-35's and U-25-B's.
 
The Pennsy had a fragmented and inconsistent system of naming = freights.=20 This is one area where the Standard Railroad of the World, wasn't. From = what I=20 can tell, the Pennsy had 4 basic categories where freight symbols could = fall=20 under:
 
The first train symbols are Commodity-based. Trains like "TT-1" (an = intermodal Truc-Train), "LCL-1" (Less than CarLoad), "FW-8" (Feed Water=20 livestock), "NF-6" (Non - Feed water livestock) were all named based on = the=20 commodites that they hauled. However, one cannot tell what the origin = and=20 destination of these trains are just by looking at the symbols
 
The second train symbols were Origin-Destination based. Trains like = CB-1 /=20 CB-2 were Chicago to Boston and CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville. Note = with these=20 train symbols, one can determine the origin and destination but cannot = determine=20 what the train is hauling. Would "AC" trains fall in this category? If = the "C"=20 stood for Chicago, what did the "A" stand for? Another train that may = fall in=20 this category is CS-8.
 
The third category are "semi-destination" train symbols. Westbound = trains=20 like WC-5 stood for "West Coast" trains. Likewise "SWC-1" = trains on=20 the Panhandle were heading for the "South West Coast". These trains = did not=20 go all of the way to the coast but rather interchanged with railroads=20 in Chicago and St. Louis that did. Also, one cannot tell from = the=20 symbol on the EXACT origin and destination of the train.
 
The last category were "divisional" trains. These were = typically=20 locals however, the names were not consistent with other=20 divisions. The Ft. Wayne Division locals were named = FW-13, FW 24,=20 etc. Please note that this is in conflict with the FW-8 live stock = train=20 mentioned above. In a neighboring division, the Logansport Division = trains were=20 named with a "LD-" prefix; I read somewhere that LD stood for=20 "Logansport Dispatch."
 
And were are talking only about the mid-1960's!!! Pick up a number = of=20 ETT's a few years apart and you will see an alphabet soup of train = symbols=20 that come and go as quickly as the sun sets.
 
So, what does AC mean? How about CS-8? or GRE-2? If = any of=20 you out there have information on these trains, please reply = back to=20 Fred and me.  I am giving a presentation on Warsaw at=20 this years convention and will be discussing train = symbols=20 briefly. Any information will be greatly appreciated.
 
 
Ted Andrews
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Ripley
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 = 11:23=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] AC freight = symbols

Hi All,

I am hoping someone can supply some = information=20 about several freight
symbols.

In the Western Region ETT of=20 10/30/66, 2 new freight schedules are AC-2 and
AC-4.  Both = originate=20 in Chicago, and travel the Ft. Wayne main to the east
end of the = Region=20 (Lucas, OH).

However, the Central Region ETT of the same date = shows=20 neither train!
Conversely, this timetable shows a westbound on the = Ft.=20 Wayne line, AC-1,
that leaves the Central Region at Lucas, but is = not=20 listed on the Western
Region schedules.

Does anyone know = anything=20 about these trains?

Thanks, Fred=20 = R.



-------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40463.505A8700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:36:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] AC freight symbols X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another train symbol which did appear in the ETT is train PY which originally ran from Pitcairn to Youngstown but really ran to Niles, OH. Later it ran from Conway to Niles. The Niles PY crews were regularly on overtime and often "outlawing" on the 16 hour day. The Ashtabula crews which only had seasonal ore and coal work,were hungry for year round work and convinced the Supt. that they could get the train over the road on schedule - which they did. The train then ran from Conway to Ashtabula and was still called PY - It was crewed from the "pool" crew list Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] AC freight symbols Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:40:11 -0500 Ted, et al., GRE-2 = Chicago (55th St.) - Enola. Daily, the"Midwest Merchant," from 1954 Brief book It's quite possible that the "GR" originally stood for Gary (Indiana), and the service was later moved west to 55th St. On the E&P in the early days Sharon was an origin and destination point, and the letter "S" was used to designate it in some symbol freights. When Wheatland yard was built most of the trains originated and terminated there yet many still carried the "S" symbol rather than "W", which was used also. I did see a local symbol freight in one of my several brief books that used "GR" to mean Gary. But this is just speculation on my part. CS-8 = Chicago (55th St) - Enola. Daily, from 1936, 1954 Brief books. In PC daze it had been extended to Greenville, NJ AC-1 = Akron-Columbus in 1972 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw. AC-2 = Columbus-Akron in 1972 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw either. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40473.9FE56E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Ted, et=20 al.,
 
GRE-2 =3D Chicago = (55th St.) -=20 Enola.  Daily, the"Midwest Merchant," from 1954 Brief book  = It's quite=20 possible that the "GR" originally stood for Gary (Indiana), and the = service was=20 later moved west to 55th St. On the E&P in the early days Sharon was = an=20 origin and destination point, and the letter "S" was used to designate = it in=20 some symbol freights. When Wheatland yard was built most of the trains=20 originated and terminated there yet many still carried the "S" symbol = rather=20 than "W", which was used also. I did see a local symbol freight = in one of=20 my several brief books that used "GR" to mean Gary. But this is just = speculation=20 on my part.
 
CS-8 =3D Chicago = (55th St) -=20 Enola.  Daily, from 1936, 1954 Brief books. In PC daze it had been = extended=20 to Greenville, NJ
 
AC-1 =3D = Akron-Columbus in 1972=20 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by=20 Warsaw.
 
AC-2 =3D = Columbus-Akron in 1972=20 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw=20 either.
 
Al
 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40473.9FE56E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 17:56:31 -0600 From: Randy Subject: RE: [PRR] AC freight symbols From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:05:53 -0500 After a brief hiatus, I will resume giving you tidbits of actual train = operations at KS tower, on the Fort Wayne Line in Warsaw, Indiana. A Mystery Engine....... ......On May 22 1965, TT-2 went through Warsaw at 3:08 am headed by = engine number 3668. Average speed between Plymouth and Warsaw was just = over 53 miles per hour. What was 3668? No other reporting marks were = given. Still, it was on one of the Pennsy's top trains. That is it for now. Stay tuned for more rail drama from Warsaw on this = list! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C404A1.2C7C35C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
After a brief hiatus, I will resume giving you tidbits of actual = train=20 operations at KS tower, on the Fort Wayne Line in Warsaw, Indiana.
 
A Mystery Engine.......
 
.......On May 22 1965, TT-2 went through=20 Warsaw at 3:08 am headed by engine number 3668. Average = speed between=20 Plymouth and=20 Warsaw was just over 53 = miles per=20 hour. What was 3668? No other reporting marks were given. Still, it was = on one=20 of the Pennsy's top trains.
 
 
That is it for now. Stay tuned for more rail drama = from Warsaw=20 on this list!
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C404A1.2C7C35C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:55:14 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AC and other Ft. Wayne schedules From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:28:01 +0000 >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:23:28 -0800 >From: Ted Andrews [mailto:Ted_Andrews@msn.com] >Subject: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 10:24:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:39:14 -0500 Subject: Reminder Re: [PRR] Harrisburg, Pa., Train Show on March 13th From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reminder for this Saturday -- and here's a MapQuest link: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/ map.adp?country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&address=200+Gibson+Street &city=Steelton&state=PA&zipcode=&submit=Get+Map On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 02:16 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'd like to invite anyone who is in the area to visit the 18th Annual > Harrisburg Railroad Show and Collector's Market, to be held at the I. > W. Abel Union Hall (Steelworkers Union), 200 Gibson St., Steelton, PA > 17113 on Saturday, March 13th. Doors open 9 a.m. - 3 p.m. Sponsored by > the Harrisburg Chapter of the National Railroad Historical Society. > > This show is not large, by any means. I think there are usually about > 80 tables or so. I'll be there (Merchandise Service) with several BLI > locomotives hooked up to a DCC system for your listening pleasure! > > The NRHS Harrisburg Chapter will be running their HO modular layout > and I know my personal friend Bill Lewis will have a decent sized N > scale layout running. > > So if you know not what to do on this day, and you are within a > reasonable driving distance, please stop by! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:14:01 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:00:56 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:33:00 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:42:20 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:46:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] MP-54 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <19A81EBF-714A-11D8-A183-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK2 0.31-18 ip=216.93.194.144 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > This has probably been asked but I don't remember it within the last > two years. Since the MP-54 coach and motors had no diaphragms, could a > passenger travel between cars? If so, wasn't it really loud, hot, cold, > wet, annoying? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:05:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: LIRR MP54's, the answer was yes. THey had chains between cars, rather than diaphragms. Is the PRR MP%$ at RRMPa gonna be repaired or replaced? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but there are many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Phila chapter High Line mag... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:10:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi all, Does anyone have a list of the issues of the High Line that were published? I was trying to figure out which issues I'm missing but since it wasn't published very regularly I can't really tell... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:33:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, UP and CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East Conway from time to time from the mid 1960s to the merger. A very good friend of mine was an engineer on the FT. Wayne and also operated trains over to Altoona and told me that many times he would wait for eastbound TT2 at East Conway with one PRR locomotive because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At that time, the Ft. Wayne didn't have cab signals. I think there are some published photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains on the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units leading PRR trains on the Ft. Wayne. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:38:31 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Aha! The 1949 chart clearly shows the "lap" configuration. And now that I look more closely at my Interlocking diagram, they do indeed match. I missed the fact that the main ran through the crossover. Alas, I will not have room to model the entire "West" siding -- it will be a dummy track ending behind my backdrop. The "East" siding will be fully operational, however. Thanks, Dennis and Derrick! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "Dennis Rockwell" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > On 8 Mar, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > > > > > Interesting! A December 1965 track chart I downloaded from > > > > Derrick Brashear [ ... ] > > > > > > isn't there a 1940s chart covering that territory on my site now? or do i > > > misremember what day grimes' chart covered? > > > > Umm, not that I can find, but I can't find *any* charts on > > your site. The chart I have doesn't have any name on it > > that I can see. > > http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html > > scroll down. > > > If you have an earlier chart online, I'm *very* interested! > > Eastern Region Wilkes-Barre Division 1949. > > I see South Danville on page 4 of the PDF. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:08:11 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:44:38 -0600 From: Randy Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:35:59 -0500 Randy: Thanks for the info. I had a sneaking suspicion that CB&Q power in the = mid-60's was 3-digit numbered. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randy=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; Ted Andrews=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... You can rule out CB&Q power. According to their diesel roster from = 1968, they have no locomotive with a 4 digit number. Randy For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40566.1C574160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Randy:
 
Thanks for the info. I had a sneaking suspicion that CB&Q power = in the=20 mid-60's was 3-digit numbered.
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; Ted Andrews
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 10:44=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery = engine at=20 Warsaw Tower.......

You can rule out CB&Q power.  According to = their=20 diesel roster from 1968, they have no locomotive with a 4 digit=20 number.

Randy

For = assistance with=20 this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40566.1C574160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Lines West Tower Standards Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design for a brick interlocking tower? TAOT Best Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:45:20 -0500 Dave: Thanks for the info. and sources. VERY interesting. In fact, one source = is Pennsy Power II where Al Stauffer rides from Crestline to Conway with = one PRR GP-30 leading 3 CB&Q and 1 UP GP-30's. Really neat!!=20 It sounds like foreign power was able to lead PRR trains west of = Pittsburgh. Engine No. 3668 could then be something from another = railroad......but which one?? At any rate, I will need to get a few P2K CB&Q, UP and CRI&P engines for = my layout now. I wonder if I can sneak a C&NW, Milw, or Santa Fe unit in = as well...... Thanks again! Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: Ted Andrews=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Ted, UP and CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East = Conway from time to time from the mid 1960s to the merger.=20 A very good friend of mine was an engineer on the FT. Wayne = and also operated trains over to Altoona and told me that many times he would wait for eastbound TT2 at East Conway with one PRR locomotive because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At that time, the Ft. Wayne didn't have cab signals.=20 I think there are some published photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains = on the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units = leading PRR trains on the Ft. Wayne.=20 Hope this helps. Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C40567.6AFDBA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave:
 
Thanks for the info. and sources. VERY interesting. In fact, one = source is=20 Pennsy Power II where Al Stauffer rides from Crestline to Conway with = one PRR=20 GP-30 leading 3 CB&Q and 1 UP GP-30's. Really neat!!
 
It sounds like foreign power was able to lead PRR trains west of=20 Pittsburgh. Engine No. 3668 could then be something from another=20 railroad......but which one??
 
At any rate, I will need to get a few P2K CB&Q, UP=20 and CRI&P engines for my layout now. I wonder if I can = sneak a=20 C&NW, Milw, or Santa Fe unit in as well......
 
Thanks again!
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net
To: Ted Andrews
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 7:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery = engine at=20 Warsaw Tower.......

Ted,

       UP and = CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East Conway
from = time to=20 time from the mid 1960s to the merger.=20
        A very good friend of = mine was=20 an engineer on the FT. Wayne and
also operated trains over to = Altoona and=20 told me that many times he
would wait for eastbound TT2 at East = Conway with=20 one PRR locomotive
because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At = that time,=20 the Ft. Wayne
didn't have cab signals.=20
       I think there are some = published=20 photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains on
the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a = tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units leading
PRR trains on the Ft. = Wayne.=20
Hope this helps.

 Dave=20 = Hopson
 


---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C40567.6AFDBA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Decal HELP!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Decal HELP!! Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Decal HELP!! Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:52:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:52:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:54:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:47:27 +0000 From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:20:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ndbprr@att.net asked: Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture a guess as to why? The short answer is that from a car maintenance and utilization standpoint, it was much easier for railroads to band together and form consortiums to manage refrigerator car fleets [Ex: Pacific Fruit Express (UP/SP)]. The Pennsy was a major player in Fruit Growers Express; there were reefers with PRR reporting marks early in the 20th Century, but almost all cars were transferred to FGEX upon its start-up in 1922. A few Class RF reefers in express service stayed in PRR reporting marks until 1928. A few railroad did manage their own fleets of freight reefers (ATSF [SFRD], CN, and CP are the most prominent examples), but the majority of roads followed this business model. For a quick overview, check out this page at Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:25:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars I'm not an expert, but Westerfield lists models for PRR class RF reefers, circa 1900. I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. In later years, Penn was a member of Fruit Growers Express. Most railroads did not own reefers as they were expensive, limited use cars. Railroads have always tried to limit their car fleets to boxcars, flats, gons and hoppers, and let the private owners supply the more expensive cars. Bill --part1_1c9.16412ab3.2d7fac82_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm not an expert, but Westerfield=20= lists models for PRR class RF reefers, circa 1900.  I believe the Penn=20= also used an outside-braced design.  In later years, Penn was a member=20= of Fruit Growers Express.  Most railroads did not own reefers as they w= ere expensive, limited use cars.  Railroads have always tried to limit=20= their car fleets to boxcars, flats, gons and hoppers, and let the private ow= ners supply the more expensive cars.  Bill --part1_1c9.16412ab3.2d7fac82_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <030920042247.14758.52f4@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:05:55 -0600 Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote: I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 boxcar = with ice bunkers and reefer doors: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_3= 4view.jpg&fr=3DclR7 All cars went to FGEX. Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors and ran = into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX). BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which = simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an = "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually = serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The = proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that = the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and = the car lining. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_016C_01C40611.EE556100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote:
I believe the = Penn also used an=20 outside-braced design.
 
That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 = boxcar with=20 ice bunkers and reefer doors:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightph= otos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_34view.jpg&fr=3DclR7
 
All cars went to FGEX.  Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors = and ran=20 into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX).
 
BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms=20 which simply wasn't used in industry publications.  = The "bracing"=20 of an "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides.  = They=20 actually serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its=20 load.  The proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers = to the=20 fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior = sheathing and=20 the car lining.
 
 
Ben Hom  
------=_NextPart_000_016C_01C40611.EE556100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:23:36 -0500 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In today's Inquirer's Local News (Philadelphia & its Suburbs) section on page 12, there's an article concerning the research being done by William Watson and John Ahtes, professors at Immaculata College, about the mass grave of 57 P&C workers at Duffy's Cut in Malvern, PA. The remains were placed in Malvern after the workers fatally contracted black diphtheria and is marked by a stone memorial. The professors are investigating if the location of the gravesite is correct based on papers inherited by Watson and his twin brother Frank. Their grandfather, Joseph Tripician, was the personal secretary to Martin Clement, President of the PRR. Mr. Tripician removed the papers from Penn Central's vault in 1970. Sounds like a good idea for an "Observation Car" tour. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:28:39 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dennis, Derrick, and list, I took a few minutes to post the Kips Interlocking diagram from my 1965 book: http://home.mchsi.com/~amato/graphics/1965-susq-dist-kips.gif Note that your browser may shrink it to fit on your screen. If you open it with a graphics program, you should be able to see all the detail. BTW, what are the "identifiers" (for lack of better term) along each track. For example "F2", "E2", and "DD2"? Are these block numbers? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Rockwell" To: "Derrick J Brashear" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 > On 8 Mar, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html > > > > Eastern Region Wilkes-Barre Division 1949. > > > > I see South Danville on page 4 of the PDF. > > Yep! Excellent! > > Frank, this shows (I think) that we're both right. It's > shown here as a long (2.5mi) siding with a crossover in the > middle. However, the main line (the darker line) takes the > crossover, which would imply to me that it is in fact > arranged as a lap siding, since I wouldn't expect the > mainline to take a crossover. > > Whether those turnouts are a pair of lefts or rights > wouldn't change how the signalling was designed, would it? > > There is another lap siding at Mifflin/Creasy which the > chart shows as I could expect to lay it out, and a > three-track water stop between Nescopeck and Wapwallopen > which explains the oddball divergence in later charts. > > Very very good info here. Thanks, Derrick! > > Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:34:03 -0500 Ben, In the case of a refrigerator car, the sheathing could not be both = exterior surface and interior lining, as there was some insulation = involved between the sheathing and the lining. So the R7 could not = really be considered "single sheathed". The X23, yes, the R7, no. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Benjamin Frank Hom=20 To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote: I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 boxcar = with ice bunkers and reefer doors: = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_3= 4view.jpg&fr=3DclR7 All cars went to FGEX. Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors and ran = into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX). BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which = simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an = "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually = serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The = proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that = the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and = the car lining. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01C4061E.3E64DE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ben,
 
In the case of a refrigerator car, the sheathing = could not be=20 both exterior surface and interior lining, as there was some insulation = involved=20 between the sheathing and the lining. So the R7 could not really be = considered=20 "single sheathed". The X23, yes, the R7, no.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Benjamin=20 Frank Hom
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 = 9:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator = cars

Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) = wrote:
I believe the = Penn also used=20 an outside-braced design.
 
That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 = boxcar=20 with ice bunkers and reefer doors:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightph= otos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_34view.jpg&fr=3DclR7
 
All cars went to FGEX.  Some cars were rebuilt with plug = doors and=20 ran into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of = FGEX).
 
BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms=20 which simply wasn't used in industry publications. =20 The "bracing" of an "outside braced" car do not structurally = brace the=20 sides.  They actually serve as a truss which carries the weight = of the=20 car and its load.  The proper industry term is "single sheathed," = which=20 refers to the fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both = exterior sheathing and the car lining.
 
 
Ben Hom  
------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01C4061E.3E64DE80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Request for Comments: S Scale PRR Covered Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:43:49 -0600 Paul S. asked: Attached is a link to an American Models S scale PRR covered hopper=20 (http://www.americanmodels.com/_photos/3308.jpg).=20 Would be interested in the group's thoughts as to how prototypical it=20 is. First, it's off-topic for this list as it's a post-1960 car. PRR did buy 185 Class H46 PS-2 CD covered hoppers from Pullman-Standard = in 1965; however, the paint and lettering on this model is executed = poorly. The car number is bogus (PRR 260084 is a Class H42 cylindrical = covered hopper), and the paint and lettering are a crappy rendition of a = PRR covered hopper paint scheme. The car should be in the final Plain = Keystone scheme with large gothic reporting marks and numerals. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4061F.9BAD5F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Paul S. asked:
Attached is a link to an American Models S scale PRR covered = hopper=20
(http://www.amer= icanmodels.com/_photos/3308.jpg).=20
Would be interested in the group's thoughts as to how prototypical = it=20
is.
First, it's off-topic for this list as it's a post-1960 = car.
 
PRR did buy 185 Class H46 PS-2 CD covered hoppers = from=20 Pullman-Standard in 1965; however, the paint and lettering on this model = is=20 executed poorly.  The car number is bogus (PRR 260084 is a Class = H42=20 cylindrical covered hopper), and the paint and lettering = are a crappy=20 rendition of a PRR covered hopper paint scheme.  The car = should be in=20 the final Plain Keystone scheme with large gothic reporting marks and=20 numerals.
 
 
Ben = Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4061F.9BAD5F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:46:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of > cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture > a guess as to why? In addition to the responses already given, I will note that the PRR did maintain a fleet of express refrigerators in the form of the R50B and much more rare R60. These were technically considered as part of the passenger car fleet, but at many times the R50Bs operated as freight equipment. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:25:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Revisited: Federal Glass Company in Columbus, OH on T&OC In a message dated 3/8/04 11:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes: > Gents: > > Actually Mark, after sending the "send me her adress e-mail" I am surprised > you are asking this..... > > The N&W (heading N-S)was a few blocks east, not near the plant. The T&OC > came into > Cow-lumbus along Marion Road (E-W), turned north and served a few > industries. > Then the whole line swings north, heading along the river. There are a > ton of industries along this road...or there were 10 years ago. > Garrett Rea > Nashville, TN > Garrett and Mark, Looking at my trusty SPV map of Columbus, I assume the locale is not only on the T&OC Western Branch west of Truro, but a bit west of Bannon where the N&W crossing/interchange is. I don't remember them, but the map shows three lengthy spurs off the north side of the T&OC (the middle one is the longest and is shown as going to Techneglas). Now further questions: along the Scioto the T&OC and C&O are shown swapping sides as they head north to their crossing of the Little Miami at Scioto Tower (required PRR content): 1. where did they cross, South Columbus or Frankfort St.? 2. didn't the T&OC have a yard called Frankfort Street? I assume it lay on the river side of the main. What facilities were there and when did it disappear? (It was still there quite while after Buckeye opened, and visible as you entered Columbus on I-71 from the south). 3. the T&OC had their own station just south of Scioto Tower (and between two crossings of the Scioto River). Was it always called Columbus, or previously West Columbus or Franklintown? 4. even back in Hocking Valley days (pre-C&O), did the passenger trains from the coal fields back up a Pennsy line to reach Columbus Union Depot? BTW, Mike Walker's SPV atlases are usually very good at showing yards and former yards, but the Great Lakes East volume falls apart on the Columbus area map, showing no: T&OC Frankfort St. PRR (Little Miami) Water Street PRR Yard A PRR Yard B PRR Grogan Yard PRR Pennor Yard PRR Spruce St (coachyards west of CUDepot) PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops CCC&StL yard east of Miami Crossing (I don't even remember the name -- this was the first thing to be wiped out by freeway construction I imagine). All these yards are now abandoned, and most sites long since cleared for other purposes. Of course, if all the above were to be shown, it might require a "downtown Columbus" inset map to handle the detail usefully. "America has rolled by like an army of steam rollers. It's been built, destroyed, and then built again" -- James Earl Jones monolog in Field of Dreams Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_24.50d4b154.2d7fe49e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/8/04 11:48:22=20= PM Eastern Standard Time, Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes:

Gents:

Actually Mark, after sending the "send me her adress e-mail"  I am surp= rised
you are asking this.....

The N&W (heading N-S)was a few blocks east, not near the plant.  Th= e T&OC came into
Cow-lumbus along Marion Road (E-W), turned north and served a few industries= .
Then the whole line swings north, heading along the river.   = There are a
ton of industries along this road...or there were 10 years ago.
=


<snip>

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN


Garrett and Mark,

Looking at my trusty SPV map of Columbus, I assume the locale is not only on= the T&OC Western Branch west of Truro, but a bit west of Bannon where t= he N&W crossing/interchange is.  I don't remember them, but the map= shows three lengthy spurs off the north side of the T&OC (the middle on= e is the longest and is shown as going to Techneglas).

Now further questions: along the Scioto the T&OC and C&O are shown s= wapping sides as they head north to their crossing of the Little Miami at Sc= ioto Tower (required PRR content):
1. where did they cross, South Columbus or Frankfort St.?
2. didn't the T&OC have a yard called Frankfort Street?  I assume i= t lay on the river side of the main.  What facilities were there and wh= en did it disappear?  (It was still there quite while after Buckeye ope= ned, and visible as you entered Columbus on I-71 from the south).
3. the T&OC had their own station just south of Scioto Tower (and betwee= n two crossings of the Scioto River).  Was it always called Columbus, o= r previously West Columbus or Franklintown?
4. even back in Hocking Valley days (pre-C&O), did the passenger trains=20= from the coal fields back up a Pennsy line to reach Columbus Union Depot?
BTW, Mike Walker's SPV atlases are usually very good at showing yards and fo= rmer yards, but the Great Lakes East volume falls apart on the Columbus area= map, showing no:
T&OC Frankfort St.
PRR (Little Miami) Water Street
PRR Yard A
PRR Yard B
PRR Grogan Yard
PRR Pennor Yard
PRR Spruce St (coachyards west of CUDepot)
PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops
CCC&StL yard east of Miami Crossing (I don't even remember the name -- t= his was the first thing to be wiped out by freeway construction I imagine).<= BR>
All these yards are now abandoned, and most sites long since cleared for oth= er purposes.  Of course, if all the above were to be shown, it might re= quire a "downtown Columbus" inset map to handle the detail usefully.

"America has rolled by like an army of steam rollers. It's been built, destr= oyed, and then built again" -- James Earl Jones monolog in Field of Dream= s

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_24.50d4b154.2d7fe49e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:25:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West towers In a message dated 3/9/04 1:14:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Lines West Tower Standards > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500 > > Gents, > > I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that > model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design > for a brick interlocking tower? > > TAOT > > Best Regards, > John The 1898 Lines West signaling standards shows only a frame tower design which steps up for larger and larger interlocking machines. This frame tower is NOT similar to Lines East designs of the period; instead, it is more like generic interlockings all over Chicago. I'd like correlate this wood-sheathed design to actual LW locations. I suspect, for example, that Mansfield (OH) was one of them before it acquired red insulbrick siding. But this design may also cover Scioto, Custer, Hanna, South Charleston, Greene (Xenia) and a number of others. This of course does nothing to document the 70 years of brick towers on Lines West. The one recognizable grouping, relatively late, was the "brick castle" group with flat roofs, including Alum Creek (Columbus), Piqua, RACE (Logansport), and Smithboro? IL. An earlier brick design (with 4-slope roof) is represented by CLARE in Cincinnati; according to resources uncovered while researching The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, CLARE replaced a wood tower wiped out in a 1921 derailment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_154.2faa642d.2d7fe493_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/9/04 1:14:43 A= M Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Lines West Tower Stand= ards
From: "John Frantz" <johnf2384@suscom.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500

Gents,

I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that
model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design
for a brick interlocking tower?

TAOT

Best Regards,
John


The 1898 Lines West signaling standards shows only a frame tower design whic= h steps up for larger and larger interlocking machines.  This frame tow= er is NOT similar to Lines East designs of the period; instead, it is more l= ike generic interlockings all over Chicago.

I'd like correlate this wood-sheathed design to actual LW locations.  I= suspect, for example, that Mansfield (OH) was one of them before it acquire= d red insulbrick siding.  But this design may also cover Scioto, Custer= , Hanna, South Charleston, Greene (Xenia) and a number of others.

This of course does nothing to document the 70 years of brick towers on Line= s West.  The one recognizable grouping, relatively late, was the "brick= castle" group with flat roofs, including Alum Creek (Columbus), Piqua, RACE= (Logansport), and Smithboro? IL.  An earlier brick design (with 4-slop= e roof) is represented by CLARE in Cincinnati; according to resources uncove= red while researching The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, CLARE=20= replaced a wood tower wiped out in a 1921 derailment.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_154.2faa642d.2d7fe493_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:43:39 -0500 Does anyone know of an accurate/up to date mailing address for Funero & = Camerlengo? I sent them a letter at their Honesdale, Pa address and the = letter was returned as no one resided at that address. =20 I looked at several web sites but all listed the address that I used = that resulted in the returned letter. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know of an accurate/up to = date mailing=20 address for Funero & Camerlengo?  I sent them a letter at their = Honesdale, Pa address and the letter was returned as no one resided at = that=20 address. 
 
I looked at several web sites but all = listed the=20 address that I used that resulted in the = returned letter.
 
Any help would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:43:39 -0500 Does anyone know of an accurate/up to date mailing address for Funero & = Camerlengo? I sent them a letter at their Honesdale, Pa address and the = letter was returned as no one resided at that address. =20 I looked at several web sites but all listed the address that I used = that resulted in the returned letter. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know of an accurate/up to = date mailing=20 address for Funero & Camerlengo?  I sent them a letter at their = Honesdale, Pa address and the letter was returned as no one resided at = that=20 address. 
 
I looked at several web sites but all = listed the=20 address that I used that resulted in the = returned letter.
 
Any help would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:31:13 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Or are RBL's boxcars? In a message dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 > > Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? > > The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later > years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR > Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars > that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 > PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as > Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were > in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. > > Al > Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and seemingly most other FGE owners). There were both 40 and 50 foot insulated boxcars of FGE design. The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and similar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled. If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A. Of course, all of these are built circa 1960 or later. Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these cars are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built date. They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repainted in SK2b or PK. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:31:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Or are RBL's boxcars? In a message dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 > > Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? > > The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later > years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR > Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars > that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 > PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as > Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were > in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. > > Al > Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and seemingly most other FGE owners). There were both 40 and 50 foot insulated boxcars of FGE design. The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and similar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled. If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A. Of course, all of these are built circa 1960 or later. Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these cars are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built date. They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repainted in SK2b or PK. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_da.551cf7e.2d806491_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator= cars
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500

Re: Did any ever have PRR markings?

The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later
years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR
Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars
that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95
PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as
Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were
in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880.

Al


Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and= seemingly most other FGE owners).  There were both 40 and 50 foot insu= lated boxcars of FGE design.

The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and simi= lar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled= .  If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR=20= classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A.  Of course, all of these are built ci= rca 1960 or later.  Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these car= s are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built da= te.  They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repa= inted in SK2b or PK.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_da.551cf7e.2d806491_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:59:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <012001c40635$79bd50e0$06f70041@dial.home.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I had always heard that one of the main reasons RRs preferred to operate their reefers through private owner subsidiaries had to do with the interchange rules. There were ICC or AAR regulations mandating the = return of empties. These rules did not work well for expensive equipment for narrowly defined cargo, such as reefers. If the cars were private = owner, then the interchange rules were different (or nonexistent. The same = theory hold for tank cars. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:20 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars ndbprr@att.net asked: Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of = cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture a = guess as to why? The short answer is that from a car maintenance and utilization = standpoint, it was much easier for railroads to band together and form consortiums = to manage refrigerator car fleets [Ex: Pacific Fruit Express (UP/SP)]. The Pennsy was a major player in Fruit Growers Express; there were reefers = with PRR reporting marks early in the 20th Century, but almost all cars were transferred to FGEX upon its start-up in 1922. A few Class RF reefers = in express service stayed in PRR reporting marks until 1928. A few railroad did manage their own fleets of freight reefers (ATSF = [SFRD], CN, and CP are the most prominent examples), but the majority of roads followed this business model. For a quick overview, check out this page = at Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:31:14 -0500 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ah Ha! Yes! This is the reason stated by RR employees when I asked this question early in my RR career - 35 years. RR owned equipment could be placed for loading by another RR for any destination, with almost any product for that cartype. Private owner equipment could only be placed for loading on instructions of the owner. This insured that a load of hides was not loaded in a reefer, etc. rendering the car not usable for meat. Also, with RR owned cars the daily car rental (per diem) was a fixed price, until the middle 1960s when a car value rate structure was introduced. Private car ownership allowed the car owner to charge additional car rental (not part of the per diem rates) for their equipment. Garry Spear Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I had always heard that one of the main reasons RRs preferred to operate > their reefers through private owner subsidiaries had to do with the > interchange rules. There were ICC or AAR regulations mandating the return > of empties. These rules did not work well for expensive equipment for > narrowly defined cargo, such as reefers. If the cars were private owner, > then the interchange rules were different (or nonexistent. The same theory > hold for tank cars. > > regards, > Andy Miller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:32 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <511531F7-72AD-11D8-90C3-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning Y'all, I introduced the 14 yr old son of a friend to operations on Saturday at a friends layout (B&M, MEC, circa 1960, http://batherson.com/seamrrc/brwm.htm) and I noted how the industrial district in one corner could be a layout by itself. That led me to start pondering a prototype switching layout based on the PRR. Then I thought - Wait a minute - there's one in my current (grandiose) layout plan (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ Homerr.html)...Oxford PA on the Octoraro Branch! If I did it right, it might even be able to fit into the ultimate layout some day, and if not, the structures would be recycled...and yes, the whole thing would be quite mobile (although no immediate plans to move are in the works). Oh yeah, I plan to write up the planning process for TKM . In the mean time, I could actually have a LAYOUT! Oxford is very, very interesting, in that most trains on the branch did not go through Oxford, but turned and returned to their point of origin at Oxford. Passenger trains consisted of Doodlebugs and the "mushroom train" (which was through), usually with a G5 and 2 PB70s, alternating with a B60b and a PBM70A. Freights were almost exclusively pulled by H class steamers, with an ND cabin until after WWII. A variety of military (troop trains) and other traffic was also seen. My PRRPro R50Bs were almost all destined for this branch anyway. Industries on the 1947 track chart include: at least 3 public delivery tracks Mackey Lumber Co. Oxford Cabinet Co. Sinclair Ref Co. Spencer Oil Abbotts Dairies Oxford Hay and Grain (2 tracks?) Passmore Supply Co. Shocks Oil Packing House In addition there was a water tank and turntable, since most trains turned at Oxford.... So a switching "layout" would consist of "staging" at both ends (possibly a small yard, perhaps a sector plate, or even a single track "cassette") with Oxford in the middle. At least 2 operators could be kept busy, as the "north" and "south" engineers, bringing trains out of staging, into Oxford, performing the work, turning the power, and heading back into staging. Now, I need to do some design work and get more information. I have the High Line on the "Mushroom Train". This has a track schematic and a few photos but what I need are photographs of the buildings along the tracks, and the geographic arrangements of those tracks. I found two more photos of motive power (one on Gary Mittner's site) I think that the Keystone, vol 16, no 2, 1983 "A Half-Century of Train Watching at Oxford, PA" by John F. Harris Sr. has a fair number of photos that might help, but I don't have that issue yet. If anyone has photographs of any of the businesses listed above, or any other information regarding Oxford I would be very interested in seeing them!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:32 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <511531F7-72AD-11D8-90C3-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning Y'all, I introduced the 14 yr old son of a friend to operations on Saturday at a friends layout (B&M, MEC, circa 1960, http://batherson.com/seamrrc/brwm.htm) and I noted how the industrial district in one corner could be a layout by itself. That led me to start pondering a prototype switching layout based on the PRR. Then I thought - Wait a minute - there's one in my current (grandiose) layout plan (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ Homerr.html)...Oxford PA on the Octoraro Branch! If I did it right, it might even be able to fit into the ultimate layout some day, and if not, the structures would be recycled...and yes, the whole thing would be quite mobile (although no immediate plans to move are in the works). Oh yeah, I plan to write up the planning process for TKM . In the mean time, I could actually have a LAYOUT! Oxford is very, very interesting, in that most trains on the branch did not go through Oxford, but turned and returned to their point of origin at Oxford. Passenger trains consisted of Doodlebugs and the "mushroom train" (which was through), usually with a G5 and 2 PB70s, alternating with a B60b and a PBM70A. Freights were almost exclusively pulled by H class steamers, with an ND cabin until after WWII. A variety of military (troop trains) and other traffic was also seen. My PRRPro R50Bs were almost all destined for this branch anyway. Industries on the 1947 track chart include: at least 3 public delivery tracks Mackey Lumber Co. Oxford Cabinet Co. Sinclair Ref Co. Spencer Oil Abbotts Dairies Oxford Hay and Grain (2 tracks?) Passmore Supply Co. Shocks Oil Packing House In addition there was a water tank and turntable, since most trains turned at Oxford.... So a switching "layout" would consist of "staging" at both ends (possibly a small yard, perhaps a sector plate, or even a single track "cassette") with Oxford in the middle. At least 2 operators could be kept busy, as the "north" and "south" engineers, bringing trains out of staging, into Oxford, performing the work, turning the power, and heading back into staging. Now, I need to do some design work and get more information. I have the High Line on the "Mushroom Train". This has a track schematic and a few photos but what I need are photographs of the buildings along the tracks, and the geographic arrangements of those tracks. I found two more photos of motive power (one on Gary Mittner's site) I think that the Keystone, vol 16, no 2, 1983 "A Half-Century of Train Watching at Oxford, PA" by John F. Harris Sr. has a fair number of photos that might help, but I don't have that issue yet. If anyone has photographs of any of the businesses listed above, or any other information regarding Oxford I would be very interested in seeing them!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for > use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing > this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, so I will now cross post. According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for the plain M1's. Anyone? Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for > use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing > this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, so I will now cross post. According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for the plain M1's. Anyone? Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:39:26 -0500 From: sjlash [mailto:sjlash@tcis.net] Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's From: Peter Weiglin Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: sjlash PM
To: omnibus@datatamers.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:
From: Date: Wednesday,
Subject: [PRR] From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:56:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter, Since you show on the masthead of "N-Scale", I can't help but wonder if you aren't trying to get all us PRR modelers in that scale to cancel our subscriptions????? ; To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's > Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The > only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 > locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The > Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are > indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not > have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara > type engines? > > Peter Weiglin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:22:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: We're all familiar with the ore traffic through the Susquehanna Division up to Mt. Carmel... and I've got the "Arranged Freight Schedules" of symbol freights off the Susquehanna Division over the Rockville Bridge into Enola... But did any mineral traffic (coal) come down the Susquehanna Division into Enola or Harrisburg? Or did it all go north? Trying to establish if there was any traffic on this route other than the scheduled freight and passenger trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:27:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <98B02C68-72C0-11D8-AF93-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Deja vu, for some... Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg more of a layover yard. Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire trip... nice! We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:38:22 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] M1a, not M1b Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry, my mistake, the 6700-6709 were M1a's. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:39:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7A98AC657D327C4180A836ED9FA027A734D0E8@fbpa1mx1.fbcs-inc.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Forget it, this guy is trying to cause controversy, and he apparently does not know the plans for Viagra's and Hudson's were found in a PRR design shop dumpster. Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:46:51 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I recall seeing pictures in books, (unciteable because i'm at school) that had Reading T1's sitting on the outbound tracks in Harrisburg yard destined for a transfer to Rutherford. Also would there have been enough reefer traffic for the Swift plant and other car traffic for Harrisburg Steel? IMHO I would guess that if Enola was the main through-point yard that they would transfer LCL blocks and cars destined for Harrisburg industries to Harrisburg Yard to sort for locals. Theres also the point of freight southbound on the Royalton Branch. What i'm saying is Harrisburg Yard would be used as a main departing point for locals east of Harrisburg on the Mainline. I'm only tossing out some specualtion of possiblities. Best Regards, John Jerry Britton wrote: Deja vu, for some... Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg more of a layover yard. Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire trip... nice! We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:56:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:46 PM, John Frantz wrote: > I recall seeing pictures in books, (unciteable because i'm at school) > that had Reading T1's sitting on the outbound tracks in Harrisburg > yard destined for a transfer to Rutherford. Also would there have been > enough reefer traffic for the Swift plant and other car traffic for > Harrisburg Steel? You are totally missing the point, John. We are looking for traffic other than local classification. There were four trips (or more) between Enola and Rutherford daily, via Harrisburg. There are photos of Pennsy L1's, Reading Trainmasters, Pennsy GP9's, and Reading T1's in this service. As for local traffic, there were dozens of industries in Harrisburg. The Swift plant, Harrisburg Steel, and the steel plant in Steelton would have generated a lot of traffic. But that still would not be enough to require the sizes of yards that Harrisburg had. > IMHO I would guess that if Enola was the main through-point yard that > they would transfer LCL blocks and cars destined for Harrisburg > industries to Harrisburg Yard to sort for locals. Theres also the > point of freight southbound on the Royalton Branch. What i'm saying is > Harrisburg Yard would be used as a main departing point for locals > east of Harrisburg on the Mainline. I'm only tossing out some > specualtion of possiblities. > >> Jerry Britton wrote: >> Deja vu, for some... >> >> Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol >> freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... >> very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg >> had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just >> sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through >> Harrisburg? >> >> Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- >> then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make >> Harrisburg more of a layover yard. >> >> Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the >> Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the >> Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for >> the entire trip... nice! >> >> We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the >> passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put >> them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:00:41 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [151.199.98.179] at Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:00:32 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Forget it, this guy is trying to cause controversy, and he apparently > does not know > the plans for Viagra's and Hudson's were found in a PRR design shop > dumpster. that must be the locomotive with the extra strong side rods? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] a C&O fan's interest in the PRR From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:12:43 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:34:14 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Perhaps running him oput of town on a rail (a cherry red hot one right from the rolling mill) would be more appropriate. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:40:25 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:27:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting > freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through > Harrisburg? Jerry, I always thought that was primarily for serving Steelton's mills and the meat packing plants. That would mean all incoming raw products -- coal, coke, scrap iron/steel, limestone, magnesium, zinc, molybdium (sp?), and all the other additives used in steel making. Outgoing would be steel products and by-products. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:44:17 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry wrote --in part-- > > Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in > passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, > with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains > 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern > Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally > replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the > E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains > would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest > record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? > Great question which I have often wondered about. Related to this question is how long did these M1's keep a 110P75 or 130P75 tender. A couple of candidates from available photos: 6810: --Keystone Sep 79, p. 15. The caption says it is a troop train in 1946, but I have always been suspicious of its accuracy. 1946 is pretty early for those "bullseye" markers. --Keystone Spring 88, p. 29. With 130P75 in Sep. 56 so it was available for pax service this late. 6845: --Keystone June 79, p. 4. On train 570 near Sunbury, summer 1954. Another suspicious caption date: there are milk tank cars in the train--in 1954?? 6861: --Keystone Spring 87, p. 32. On train 570 in Sunbury April 1951. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:59:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 03:44 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > 6810: > --Keystone Spring 88, p. 29. With 130P75 in Sep. 56 so it was > available for > pax service this late. Wow, that could be a holy grail! > > 6845: > --Keystone June 79, p. 4. On train 570 near Sunbury, summer 1954. > Another > suspicious caption date: there are milk tank cars in the train--in > 1954?? Possibly. I know of milk cars being picked up at Huntingdon in 1952 and heading east to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:56:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've heard stories from a first hand source that grew up in Huntington about an L1 putting a local Milk reefer on the end of The Juniata and the train would take it to Philadelphia and the reffer would return the nex t day or two on the same train westbound. He actually built an N scale module depicting the scene. -John Jerry Britton wrote: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 03:44 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > 6810: > --Keystone Spring 88, p. 29. With 130P75 in Sep. 56 so it >was > available for > pax service this late. Wow, that could be a holy grail! > > 6845: > --Keystone June 79, p. 4. On train 570 near Sunbury, >summer 1954. > Another > suspicious caption date: there are milk tank cars in the >train--in > 1954?? Possibly. I know of milk cars being picked up at Huntingdon in 1952 and heading east to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:04:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gang, I wonder how many spamblockers trashed the two replies where 4-8-4's were confuised with little blue pills? I wondered at first why two messages with the subject " (PRR)Keystone and T1's" were in my trash can! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's > Perhaps running him oput of town on a rail (a cherry red hot one right from the rolling mill) would be more appropriate. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:30:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry and list, Is it possible we look in the wrong direction for traffic through Harrisburg. Without certainty to time periods, large amounts of MTs were routed away from the heavy classification of Enola, mostly just rounding out westbound tonnage as required, with per diem the only consideration other than general destination. Worth looking into. These were on the opposite end of symbol freights! Bob McKay Along the Susquehanna in N scale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's > Deja vu, for some... > > Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights > moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few > went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very > sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting > freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? > > Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- > then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg > more of a layover yard. > > Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the > Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle > Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire > trip... nice! > > We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger > main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through > Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:10:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: "Frederic H. Abendschein" From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:45:38 -0500 Re: Trashing a T1 and praising a Hudson and Niagara in the same post! Forget tar and feathering: Banishment!!! Or perhaps castration. Al ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C406E9.0744EA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Re: = Trashing a T1 and praising a Hudson and = Niagara in the=20 same post!  Forget tar and feathering:=20 Banishment!!!
 
Or perhaps castration.=20 <G>
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C406E9.0744EA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Milk cars on PRR in the 1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:31:40 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben Hom writes: > BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and the car lining. > Ben Hom Another interesting term used by modelers/historians is the term "HAT BRACE". The steel industry actually calls these critters... Round Edged Flanged Channels... or "REFC". When buying such critters you'll probably find the steel distributor hang the phone up laughing at you if you ask for "HAT BRACING"... ... under the column of soooz ya noe... 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:45:41 GMT Subject: [PRR] Milk Run From: Dominic Mazoch Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:42:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Harrisburg yard From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <3195026BBF3C1140B196176D0EFBF97302A0E068@e2k1.Fullerton.EDU> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Protecting the privacy of those who commented off-list... I have received numerous responses about traffic through Harrisburg, in addition to the obvious local classifications and traffic: > As far as I can tell, in '56 the yard was used for mineral > traffic. Eastbound > coal and westbound ore did use Harrisburg yard, with P5a's and FA/FB > units running east of Harrisburg. Motive power crossed the CV bridge > with their cabin car. I think one of the Carleton books had > some black and white photos of six hopper trains sitting side by side > with an M1a and an RS-11 running next to them. Also in '56, the TT's > ran > thru Harrisburg. I haven't scoured the '56 ETT to determine what > other freight trains came thru the 'burg but my plan is to focus on the > ore/coal movements. It varied with the season but in March of '56 > they had from 1 to 4 daily westbound ore movements. I've gotten other reports that both eastbound main line coal AND eastbound coal off the Buffalo line went through Harrisburg, to keep the trains not requiring classification out of Enola. At Harrisburg there were indeed long relay tracks, and loco swaps could take place. Note that steam did, however, run on some trains even under wire. The above notes Alco's and P5a's east of Harrisburg. Stauffer notes westbound ore with two M1's at head and an I1 at rear on ore trains for the whole trip over the Middle Division in 1954. Would they put the cabin behind the I1? In later years GP9's are seen on this service...sometimes with five units at head. As for the TT's... In '54 the TOFC traffic was carried on LCL trains. Arranged Freight Schedules show times for these trains at both DAY and BANKS, so the LCL's went through Enola. At some point a TOFC terminal was added at Harrisburg. Also, the TT trains started in March 1955. Perhaps at this time they began using the Harrisburg routing. This has all been very helpful for my modeling and I thank all who responded. I am modeling 1954 and have parts of the Pittsburgh and Middle divisions modeled, which will depict eastbound coal. However, I am not modeling Enola (just hidden staging) but I am modeling Harrisburg. This new info about mineral routing will enable me to extend the visible run of coal trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:42:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Harrisburg yard From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <3195026BBF3C1140B196176D0EFBF97302A0E068@e2k1.Fullerton.EDU> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Protecting the privacy of those who commented off-list... I have received numerous responses about traffic through Harrisburg, in addition to the obvious local classifications and traffic: > As far as I can tell, in '56 the yard was used for mineral > traffic. Eastbound > coal and westbound ore did use Harrisburg yard, with P5a's and FA/FB > units running east of Harrisburg. Motive power crossed the CV bridge > with their cabin car. I think one of the Carleton books had > some black and white photos of six hopper trains sitting side by side > with an M1a and an RS-11 running next to them. Also in '56, the TT's > ran > thru Harrisburg. I haven't scoured the '56 ETT to determine what > other freight trains came thru the 'burg but my plan is to focus on the > ore/coal movements. It varied with the season but in March of '56 > they had from 1 to 4 daily westbound ore movements. I've gotten other reports that both eastbound main line coal AND eastbound coal off the Buffalo line went through Harrisburg, to keep the trains not requiring classification out of Enola. At Harrisburg there were indeed long relay tracks, and loco swaps could take place. Note that steam did, however, run on some trains even under wire. The above notes Alco's and P5a's east of Harrisburg. Stauffer notes westbound ore with two M1's at head and an I1 at rear on ore trains for the whole trip over the Middle Division in 1954. Would they put the cabin behind the I1? In later years GP9's are seen on this service...sometimes with five units at head. As for the TT's... In '54 the TOFC traffic was carried on LCL trains. Arranged Freight Schedules show times for these trains at both DAY and BANKS, so the LCL's went through Enola. At some point a TOFC terminal was added at Harrisburg. Also, the TT trains started in March 1955. Perhaps at this time they began using the Harrisburg routing. This has all been very helpful for my modeling and I thank all who responded. I am modeling 1954 and have parts of the Pittsburgh and Middle divisions modeled, which will depict eastbound coal. However, I am not modeling Enola (just hidden staging) but I am modeling Harrisburg. This new info about mineral routing will enable me to extend the visible run of coal trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] RE: coal traffic via Ft. Wayne? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:56:20 +0000 >From: Frederick Ripley >Subject: coal traffic via Ft. Wayne? >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:46:08 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:40:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 09:09 AM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > During the mid-1960s there was a mostly=A0coal train called AN-16 that=20= > ran (daily) Altoona to Northumberland. The coal was relayed from=20 > Northumberland to Wilkes Barre on S-97 and the rest of the freight=20 > was=A0 put out on locals on the various branch lines to Selinsgrove,=20= > Berwick, Lykens Vy etc.=A0 Don't know if this run existed in=A0 1954.=A0= I=20 > wasn't around at that time. > Bill, wouldn't that have gone across the Bald Eagle Branch? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Milk Cars on the Buffalo Line Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:43:19 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Indeed Sheffield Farms had dairy farms in North Central PA. In particular they had farms on the Bald Eagle Branch which generated milk traffic. Milk cars for the New York City area came off the branch at Lock Haven, went west to Renovo for icing, then headed east for the NYC area on RJ-4, a train of milk reefers pulled by either a G-5 or a K-4. When behind a K-4 it often made better time than the Broadway once it hit the mainline as it didn't have to make the station stops. The G-5's didn't have the speed, however. The first of the two articles in the Keystone on Renovo (early 80's?) shows a picture of a train departing Renovo with a milk tank on the rear. There is an earlier Keystone with a picture of RJ-4 on the cover as I remember. Clarence Weaver's (Penn Valley) "Susquehanna Division" video shows a few of these milk trains off the branches heading for Harrisburg. They may have some color shots of some of these milk reefers, although as I remember they were quite dirty. My books on milk reefers are black and white, unfortunately. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! 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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:37:28 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Milk Cars on the Buffalo Line From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:09:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Milk Cans Hello List, Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that milk cans were transported on the PRR? Would someone define "milk cars" for me please? Were they reefers, insulated boxes, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were they tank cars specifically used for hauling milk? Did PRR have cars specifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, insulated boxes, plain boxes? Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the creamery and what detail stuff I'll need. Thanks. BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Hello List,

Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that m= ilk cans were transported on the PRR?  Would someo= ne define "milk cars" for me please?  Were they reefers, insulated boxe= s, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were th= ey tank cars specifically used for hauling milk?  Did PRR have cars spe= cifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, ins= ulated boxes, plain boxes?

Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the crea= mery and what detail stuff I'll need.

Thanks.

BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale<= /FONT>= )
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:09:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Milk Cans Hello List, Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that milk cans were transported on the PRR? Would someone define "milk cars" for me please? Were they reefers, insulated boxes, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were they tank cars specifically used for hauling milk? Did PRR have cars specifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, insulated boxes, plain boxes? Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the creamery and what detail stuff I'll need. Thanks. BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Hello List,

Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that m= ilk cans were transported on the PRR?  Would someo= ne define "milk cars" for me please?  Were they reefers, insulated boxe= s, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were th= ey tank cars specifically used for hauling milk?  Did PRR have cars spe= cifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, ins= ulated boxes, plain boxes?

Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the crea= mery and what detail stuff I'll need.

Thanks.

BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale<= /FONT>= )
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:28:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Altoona Festivities Announcement... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I teased you a few weeks ago... Here goes... March 11, 2004 150th Anniversary Of "Horseshoe Curve" Features Major Fourth Of July Tribute Norfolk Southern and OSRAM SYLVANIA Engineer Lighting Extravaganza; This Year's Event Will Trump the 1954 "SYLVANIA Big Shot" ALTOONA, PA - With the commemoration of Horseshoe Curve's 150th anniversary this year, the Railroaders Heritage Corporation today announced that it will "pull out all the stops" with a major evening spectacular on July 4th. This extraordinary event will be reminiscent of the famous 1954 "SYLVANIA Big Shot," which featured the simultaneous deployment of more than 6,500 SYLVANIA Blue Dot flashbulbs to light Horseshoe Curve. This time, OSRAM SYLVANIA and Norfolk Southern will provide technology, equipment and sizzle for the celebration of this major transportation and engineering milestone in American history. "We are excited to once again help bring notice to such an important moment in American history," said Scott Cessna, executive director of the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona. "In 1854, an enterprising young civil engineer named J. Edgar Thomson opened the first railway to scale the mighty Allegheny Mountains in Central Pennsylvania. To avoid a sharp incline, which would be impossible for heavy steam trains to manage, Thomson routed the right-of-way in a horseshoe shape, so the rise would be gradual. The feat was considered a major engineering masterpiece at the time and was pivotal to opening commerce across the continental U.S." The American Society of Civil Engineers recently recognized Horseshoe Curve as a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark during a ceremony in Altoona. "Horseshoe Curve is a vital component of Norfolk Southern's 22-state freight rail network," said David R. Goode, Norfolk Southern's chairman, president and chief executive officer. "The 150th year of operation of this American industrial and engineering landmark, its role in the westward expansion of the U.S. and its continuing importance to the national economy are certainly deserving of celebration." Today, an average of 60 Norfolk Southern freight trains and four Amtrak passenger trains operate over Horseshoe Curve daily. This volume translates into more than 100 million gross tons of freight annually. Commodities coming through Horseshoe Curve include mail, consumer goods, coal, finished automobiles, construction material and agricultural products. SYLVANIA technology continues to focus public awareness on the remarkable feat of engineering that Horseshoe Curve represents. In 1954, SYLVANIA and the Pennsylvania Railroad captured the imagination of children and adults alike with the illumination of Horseshoe Curve, which was the sixth in a series of 18 photographic achievements known as Big Shots. All 18 Big Shots were illuminated using SYLVANIA flashbulb technology. Photographs of the 1954 event can be found at www.railroadcity.com/hsc1954. "We recognize the historical significance of the anniversary of the construction of Horseshoe Curve and are pleased to support the recreation of the spectacle of the first lighting. As we did in the past, we will be using the most innovative products available on the market today," said Charlie Jerabek, president and CEO of OSRAM SYLVANIA. "Many of the lighting products available through OSRAM SYLVANIA today were developed within the last five years." In order to provide the safest and most comfortable atmosphere for the celebration, the event will be ticketed. Entertainment will be provided the entire day both at the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona and Horseshoe Curve, culminating with the lighting of Horseshoe Curve and a display from Zambelli Fireworks Internationale - the "First Family of Fireworks." Ticket information is available by contacting the Railroaders Memorial Museum at 1-888-4ALTOONA. About Railroaders Heritage Corporation Railroaders Heritage Corporation is a not-for-profit organization established in 1972 with offices in Altoona, PA. The Corporation owns and operates two significant historic sites in the Altoona area - the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark and the Railroaders Memorial Museum. It is the mission of the Railroaders Heritage Corporation to reveal, interpret, commemorate and celebrate the significant contributions of railroaders and their families to American life, past and present. Please visit us at www.railroadcity.com. About Norfolk Southern Corporation Norfolk Southern Corporation is one of the nation's premier transportation companies. Its Norfolk Southern Railway subsidiary operates 21,500 route miles in 22 states, the District of Columbia and Ontario, serving every major container port in the eastern United States and providing superior connections to western rail carriers. NS operates the most extensive intermodal network in the East and is the nation's largest rail carrier of automotive parts and finished vehicles. For further information, please visit our Web site at www.nscorp.com. About OSRAM SYLVANIA Headquartered in Danvers, Mass., OSRAM SYLVANIA is the North American lighting operation of OSRAM GmbH. Together we are the second-largest lighting and materials enterprise in the world, serving customers in more than 140 countries. We manufacture and market a wide range of lighting products, including automotive, electronic and magnetic ballasts, and precision materials and components for industrial and commercial users, original equipment manufacturers and consumers, sold primarily under the SYLVANIA brand name, but also under the OSRAM brand. OSRAM SYLVANIA also offers lighting systems installation and maintenance services. For further information, please refer to our Web site at www.sylvania.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:02:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Two examples of the H&BTM shuffling Suplee milk cars (reefer type, not tanks) near Bedford in 1951... http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- 19510000001.jpg http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- 19510000002.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:13:10 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:20:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars In a message dated 3/11/2004 2:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- > 19510000001.jpg > > http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- > 19510000002.jpg > A space appears to have slide into each of the URLs, between the "bedford-" and the number "1951...". Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1c1.16323408.2d8215f9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message=20= dated 3/11/2004 2:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


http://www.trainweb.org/eve= rett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford-=20
19510000001.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford-=20
19510000002.jpg


A space appears to have slide into each of the URLs,
between the "bedford-" and the number "1951...".

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1c1.16323408.2d8215f9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:52:18 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/11/2004 2:13:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > In the early 1930's in PA, milk production > and marketing became subject to something called the Milk Control > Committee, which a couple years later became the Milk Marketing > Control Board. > > It's advent also seems to have affected, perhaps > eliminated, the > operation of out-of-state dairy companies in PA. Until 1972 when the state Department of Agriculture took over the milk inspection program, Allegheny County Health Department staff were traveling to dairy farms as far away as Wisconsin to inspect the raw milk handling, sanitation conditions and the health of the herd. This milk was being brought into the County by truck and train. The primary delivery points being the Borden and Sealtest ice cream plants (both now long gone). Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:06:45 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Milk cars on PRR in the 1950's Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:01:54 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm surprised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks. BTW, documentation says they are black (the flats, not the tanks). My planned milk train will include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin car is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70. The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of Chicago) were Pullman green with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents..... I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train operated between Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the merger. I have a wheel report for the train and it is a "CB&Q Classification" Most of the cars in this train are bound for the west coast. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents..... I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train operated between Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the merger. I have a wheel report for the train and it is a "CB&Q Classification" Most of the cars in this train are bound for the west coast. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] M1b & N8 question Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:45:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I will ask my N8 question first. Did the N8 get the yellow side handrails and step edges? I went to the PRR Museum in Strasburg last week for the first time in about 4-5 years. It was the first time I have been there since getting my digital camera. In short the digital camera made my detail-hunting day great. I answered my first "where does that pipe go" question. But it made me wonder about a few more. Does anyone have a good pipe route photo of this area on the M1 before it was dismantled? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/M1_pipe.jpg I need to know how and where the pipe goes after it leaves the front air tank. I imagine it finds its way back to the compressors. I shot 325 photos, mostly detail shots of the X29, Gs gon, L1, M1b loco and tender, K4, X54, Rail Whale, and N5c. I got some "purty" shots of the GP30, GP9 and E7 as well. It is 827 MB of photos. I will give a copy of these photos which obviously is more then one CD to the first person who can help me route that air tank pipe. BTW, you will be able to make a razor sharp 8 x 10 of every photo I took. If you like draft gear photos you will not be disappointed here! Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:06:21 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: omnibus@datatamers.com writes: > The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? > > Peter Weiglin Peter, Peter, Peter.... Didn't you mother teach you better...? Never mention those two competitors in mixed company.... You must not grasp what we all seem to see in this "beast"... Untamed power and misunderstood technology in an era that technology was an infant... As you put it... "The Penn people" were only overshadowed and over burdened by the Volkswagens of the industry... the EMD's "BUG" the F7 and the "Beetle" the E7... Slipping at speed, a feat that the EMD "Beetle" could never have achieved... AAAHHHH! Those must have been the days! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:12:46 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Osgood-Bradley American Flyer Coach formerly in Sunnyside From: "Jerry M. LaBoda" Subject: [N-scaleVarnish] Re: Osgood-Bradley American Flyer Coaches From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:26:54 EST Subject: [PRR] re: Milk cars I'm surprised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks. BTW, documentation says they are black (the flats, not the tanks). My planned milk train will include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin car is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70. The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of Chicago) were Pullman green with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest. Bob Zoeller Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probably happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight trains. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm sur= prised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company
flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks.  BTW, documentation= says
they are black (the flats, not the tanks).  My planned milk train will<= BR> include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round=
bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin=20= car
is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish=
milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70.

The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of=
Chicago) were Pullman green  with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's
butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver<= BR> with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest.<= BR>
Bob Zoeller


Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probabl= y happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight train= s. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:26:54 EST Subject: [PRR] re: Milk cars I'm surprised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks. BTW, documentation says they are black (the flats, not the tanks). My planned milk train will include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin car is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70. The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of Chicago) were Pullman green with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest. Bob Zoeller Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probably happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight trains. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm sur= prised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company
flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks.  BTW, documentation= says
they are black (the flats, not the tanks).  My planned milk train will<= BR> include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round=
bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin=20= car
is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish=
milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70.

The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of=
Chicago) were Pullman green  with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's
butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver<= BR> with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest.<= BR>
Bob Zoeller


Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probabl= y happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight train= s. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:45:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] M1b & N8 question Hi All, I will ask my N8 question first. Did the N8 get the yellow side handrails and step edges? I went to the PRR Museum in Strasburg last week for the first time in about 4-5 years. It was the first time I have been there since getting my digital camera. In short the digital camera made my detail-hunting day great. I answered my first "where does that pipe go" question. But it made me wonder about a few more. Does anyone have a good pipe route photo of this area on the M1 before it was dismantled? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/M1_pipe.jpg I need to know how and where the pipe goes after it leaves the front air tank. I imagine it finds its way back to the compressors. I shot 325 photos, mostly detail shots of the X29, Gs gon, L1, M1b loco and tender, K4, X54, Rail Whale, and N5c. I got some "purty" shots of the GP30, GP9 and E7 as well. It is 827 MB of photos. I will give a copy of these photos which obviously is more then one CD to the first person who can help me route that air tank pipe. BTW, you will be able to make a razor sharp 8 x 10 of every photo I took. If you like draft gear photos you will not be disappointed here! Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Kadee H34a Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:33:55 -0600 New from Kadee. http://www.kadee.com/ca/ps2/8311l.htm Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
New from Kadee.
 
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Kadee H34a Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:33:55 -0600 New from Kadee. http://www.kadee.com/ca/ps2/8311l.htm Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
New from Kadee.
 
http://www.kadee.com/ca/ps= 2/8311l.htm
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:55:35 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR steam number plates Greetings to everyone, Can someone tell me why some PRR steam will have a round number plate on smokebox and others will have a keystone? Thank you!!!! Steve Panopoulos --part1_79.242da754.2d82aad7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Greetings to everyone,
Can someone tell me why some PRR steam will have a round number plate on smo= kebox and others will have a keystone?
Thank you!!!!
Steve Panopoulos --part1_79.242da754.2d82aad7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:29:55 GMT Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars From: Dominic Mazoch From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:31:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Fred R.,Ted and Lists I think the "CB&Q Classification" means that the entire train will be handed over to the Burlington in Chicago. According to the wheel report, only two cars of the consist is destine for Chicago. The rest are headed for points on the CB&Q. (Seattle,Spokane,Tacoma) But this is before the train reaches Enola. This wheel report is for Harsimus Cove and Waverly Yards. There is a block of cars for the UP(North Platte). Looks like AC-1 only makes pick ups at Enola and Conway. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:42:56 GMT Subject: [PRR] Milk Tanks on Flatcar From: Dominic Mazoch From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:14:27 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Tanks on Flatcar Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:17:59 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:40:35 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:15:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Interesting tidbit on page 65 of the Philadelphia Division ETT from 9/26/54... 1156-A2. Harrisburg Passenger Station -- Tracks 3, 6, 7, 24, 1-E, all tracks in Mulberry Street, State Street and Cumberland Valley Yards and all single end tracks are storage tracks. What caught my eye is tracks "3, 6, and 7", which are through tracks through the station that are dedicated for storage. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR steam number plates Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:10:04 -0500 Steve, Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number plates. Starting in = 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger locomotives only. = It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b types got = keystone number plates because they were considered dual service power = or if PRR had decided that all power was to get keystone number plates, = but by the time new power came along in WW II, the J's and the Q's got = keystones, although they were strictly freight, as did the N&W Y3's = bought used. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: STEVEGG1@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:55 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR steam number plates Greetings to everyone, Can someone tell me why some PRR steam will have a round number plate = on smokebox and others will have a keystone?=20 Thank you!!!! Steve Panopoulos ------=_NextPart_000_03FB_01C4081A.30695D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve,
 
Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number = plates.=20 Starting in 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger = locomotives=20 only. It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b = types got=20 keystone number plates because they were considered dual service = power or=20 if PRR had decided that all power was to get keystone number plates, but = by the=20 time new power came along in WW II, the J's and the Q's got keystones, = although=20 they were strictly freight, as did the N&W Y3's bought = used.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 STEVEGG1@aol.com=20
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 = 12:55=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR steam number = plates

Greetings to everyone,
Can = someone tell me=20 why some PRR steam will have a round number plate on smokebox and = others will=20 have a keystone?
Thank you!!!!
Steve Panopoulos=20 ------=_NextPart_000_03FB_01C4081A.30695D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:17:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Use of Bell From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <59103CA2-7438-11D8-8293-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In the Atlas Forum, someone asked about the use of the bell, generically speaking (not PRR specific). I think we normally think of the bell for passenger trains arriving and departing, locos backup up, etc. But I thought I'd check the rules. However, I cannot find the rules! I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division ETT (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! Where would one fine the official "use of bell" rules? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:33:30 -0600 Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::Re: [PRR] PRR steam number plates From: Bruce Smith Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 09:10 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Steve, > =A0 > Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number plates. Starting in=20 > 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger locomotives=20 > only. It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b=20 > types got keystone number plates because they were=A0considered dual=20= > service power Greg beat me to the original reply so I'll add this to his...The=20 M1s originally got round plates except those assigned to passenger=20 service. When the M1As were built with keystones, the M1s were=20 upgraded to keystones...the M1/M1A may have been a "dual service"=20 locomotive, but most were assigned to freight duties, and only 10 M1As=20= carried passenger equipped tenders so the intent was to use most of=20 them on freight only. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-4--133320839 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 09:10 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Steve, =A0 Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number plates. Starting in 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger locomotives only. It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b types got keystone number plates because they were=A0considered dual service power=20 Greg beat me to the original reply < so I'll add this to his...The M1s originally got round plates except those assigned to passenger service. When the M1As were built with keystones, the M1s were upgraded to keystones...the M1/M1A may have been a "dual service" locomotive, but most were assigned to freight duties, and only 10 M1As carried passenger equipped tenders so the intent was to use most of them on freight only. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-4--133320839-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Use of Bell Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:12:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division ETT (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! It's Rule 30 - "The engine bell or warning signal must be sounded when an engine is about to move, when running through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at grade and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." Revised effective 10-27-57. The language added in 1957 from earlier editions was "or warning signal." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Use of Bell Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:13:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division ETT (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! It's Rule 30 - "The engine bell or warning signal must be sounded when an engine is about to move, when running through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at grade and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." Revised effective 10-27-57. The language added in 1957 from earlier editions was "or warning signal." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:16:48 -0500 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:23:35 -0500 Resent-Message-Id: Resent-To: PRR-Talk LIST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of Bell From: Jerry Britton To: "Al Buchan" Message-Id: <9CAF7D3A-7441-11D8-8293-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Resent-From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 11:11 AM, Al Buchan wrote: >> Re I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division >> ETT >> (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! > > You didn't look very hard it's Rule 30 - "The engine bell or warning > signal must be sounded when an engine is about to move, when running > through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at > grade > and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." Revised > effective 10-27-57. The language added in 1957 from earlier editions > was "or warning signal." Thanks! I notice no mention of passenger train approaching a station or when a loco is reversing. Are those "fictitious" situations often practiced on model railroads? "30. The engine bell must be rung when an engine is about to move, when running through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at grade and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." (1951 BoR, p. 23, certified through 1954) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:49:22 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of Bell Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Guys: Rule 30 says: >> "The engine bell or warning signal must be sounded when an engine is >> about to move..." > Jerry asks: > > I notice no mention of ... when a loco is reversing. Are those > "fictitious" situations often practiced on model railroads? Doesn't "about to move" include reversing???? Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:10:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm getting more and more interested in the milk car discussion. Unfortunately I can't answer the original question of whether PRR hauled milk cars in 1954, even though I'm reasonably sure they did. It seems to me that they (and most northeastern railroads) hauled milk cars at least through the end of steam and more or less through the end of passenger service, as it was the passenger trains that hauled the milk cars. NY and PA are still chock full of dairy farms, ranging in size from quite small to quite large. Today the milk is hauled by trucks. A visit to any grocery store from the biggest to the smallest reveals a milk section full of milk with daily deliveries to the largest stores, and at least every other day delivery to the smaller ones. Considering the huge number of grocery stores in even medium sized cities, milk and milk products are clearly a big business. Therefore, so are dairies, and here in west central NY there are a number of large dairies and bottling plants around. I imagine most farms now truck their own milk to dairies, and I imagine the smaller ones still use milk cans. Has anyone tried to research this topic by looking into the milk and dairy industry instead of railroads? I certainly remember lots and lots of refrigerator cars and livestock cars on the Nickel Plate, the railroad I lived near, in the '50's. Here in dairy farm country there had to be as many. The NYO&W Historical Society has an excellent book on milk cars and milk trains available through their society, and probably available through the larger railroad bookstores (and no doubt Amazon.com). The O&W lasted until 1957. Unfortunately I can't put my finger on my copy or my other milk car and express reefer books at the moment, but let's keep this thread going - it's an interesting question! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:19:03 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 12:10 PM, William Bigler wrote: > > I'm getting more and more interested in the milk car discussion. > Unfortunately I can't answer the original question of whether PRR > hauled > milk cars in 1954 Geez, this is sounding more and more like how I got involved in reefers -- which culminated in the reefer page on KC! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] R50b weathering Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:32:30 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:45:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: So Jerry, clearly sounds like time for a milk car/milk industry page(s)! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "William Bigler" Cc: Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars > On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 12:10 PM, William Bigler wrote: > > > > > I'm getting more and more interested in the milk car discussion. > > Unfortunately I can't answer the original question of whether PRR > > hauled > > milk cars in 1954 > > Geez, this is sounding more and more like how I got involved in reefers > -- which culminated in the reefer page on KC! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:29:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars List, Thanks a bunch to all who replied, on line and off, to my inquiry regarding milk cars. I received a wealth of information both direct and indirect. Bob Martin CPRR --part1_10e.2d547900.2d835b7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" List,

Thanks a bunch to all who replied, on line and off, to my inquiry regard= ing milk cars.  I received a wealth of information both direct and indi= rect.

Bob Martin
CPRR --part1_10e.2d547900.2d835b7b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:59:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Were station tracks 3 and 6 used as holding tracks for equipment coming off or on through trains using the main platform and tracks 4 and 5? Was track 7 for mail storage? And when did the bridge to the post office originate and disappear? Bob McKay Susquehanna Division 1965 in N scale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 9:15 AM Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks > Interesting tidbit on page 65 of the Philadelphia Division ETT from > 9/26/54... > > 1156-A2. Harrisburg Passenger Station -- Tracks 3, 6, 7, 24, 1-E, all > tracks in Mulberry Street, State Street and Cumberland Valley Yards and > all single end tracks are storage tracks. > > What caught my eye is tracks "3, 6, and 7", which are through tracks > through the station that are dedicated for storage. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:02:01 -0500 From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/12/2004 12:19:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > They appear to concentrate on New England and eastern New > York, I know the New England area produced a lot of milk and milk products. What I would like to see some photos of milk cars say traveling over Horseshoe. Again, I know it probably happened but I've never seen any proof of it. I model 1957 and would like to justify some milk cars for my trains. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:12:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 01:59 PM, Bob McKay wrote: > Were station tracks 3 and 6 used as holding tracks for equipment > coming off > or on through trains using the main platform and tracks 4 and 5? Was > track > 7 for mail storage? And when did the bridge to the post office > originate > and disappear? Answer to last question first. The post office wasn't even there until the 1960's...the Reading's station was. Tracks 1 & 2 were used mainly by the trains that then took the CV bridge to reach the Northern Central line to York, Baltimore and Washington. These trains carried a lot of cars that moved to other east-west trains at Harrisburg. So using track 3 for storage makes sense. It was a logical place to stash these cars for a few minutes while they waited for their connection. Track 4 is noted on valuation maps as being the "Eastbound Main". The "Westbound Main" is noted on track 7, which is in conflict. Track 6 as storage makes some sense as it is between the east and west mains. > Bob McKay > Susquehanna Division 1965 in N scale > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 9:15 AM > Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks > > >> Interesting tidbit on page 65 of the Philadelphia Division ETT from >> 9/26/54... >> >> 1156-A2. Harrisburg Passenger Station -- Tracks 3, 6, 7, 24, 1-E, all >> tracks in Mulberry Street, State Street and Cumberland Valley Yards >> and >> all single end tracks are storage tracks. >> >> What caught my eye is tracks "3, 6, and 7", which are through tracks >> through the station that are dedicated for storage. >> ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk Cans Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:16:26 -0500 Subject: PRR milk service into New York City RE: [PRR] Milk Cans

Listers,

This is from the Milk trains list.

Chris Chany

Subject: PRR milk service into New York City

Stumbled onto this website while looking for things = unrelated to milk:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/

Some PDF files with consist books are listed near the = top of the
page. Just a brief perusal turned up some very = interesting stuff
that, not being a PRR fan, I had no prior knowledge = about. It appears
the PRR did some serious hauling of milk into the = New York City area,
Long Island in particular, using both their own = Class R50b express
reefers (the ones Walthers is bringing out) as well = as milk tank cars
(I assume GPEX). Here are just two examples I found = after the
briefest of perusals:

* In 1943, there were a whole bunch of tank cars plus = an express
reefer as a can car moving from Long Island (mostly = Jamaica, from the
LIRR?) on Train #RJ-11 to various destinations in PA = (I think if I'm
guessing correctly on the abbreviations). Go = here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/MakeUpOfTrains_NYDivi= sionNo6_Nov14,19
43_300mono.pdf

and scroll down to the fourth page.

* In 1957, express reefers apparently used as can = cars from Salamanca
(NY) to Penn Station (NY) via Harrisburg (PA). Go = here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/Consists_InterRegion_= Passenger_April2
8_1957_150dpi_bw.pdf

and scroll down to Train #2. One would think any milk = out of
Salamanca would have been carried by the Erie to = Jersey City but I
guess for a dairy in New York City or out on L.I. = the PRR was the
smarter move.

I'm sure there's a lot more info to be mined from = these pages. But it
opens up an aspect of New York City milk operations = that I've never
seen written about in the usual magazines (perhaps = the PRR society
covered it). The use of PRR express reefers as can = cars is also
interesting.


------_=_NextPart_001_01C40866.83917190-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:25:27 +0000 From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:36:01 -0800 RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey = City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this = was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk Cans Listers,=20 This is from the Milk trains list.=20 Chris Chany=20 Subject: PRR milk service into New York City=20 Stumbled onto this website while looking for things unrelated to milk: = http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/=20 Some PDF files with consist books are listed near the top of the=20 page. Just a brief perusal turned up some very interesting stuff=20 that, not being a PRR fan, I had no prior knowledge about. It appears=20 the PRR did some serious hauling of milk into the New York City area,=20 Long Island in particular, using both their own Class R50b express=20 reefers (the ones Walthers is bringing out) as well as milk tank cars=20 (I assume GPEX). Here are just two examples I found after the=20 briefest of perusals:=20 * In 1943, there were a whole bunch of tank cars plus an express=20 reefer as a can car moving from Long Island (mostly Jamaica, from the=20 LIRR?) on Train #RJ-11 to various destinations in PA (I think if I'm=20 guessing correctly on the abbreviations). Go here:=20 http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/MakeUpOfTrains_NYDivisionNo6_Nov14,19 = 43_300mono.pdf=20 and scroll down to the fourth page.=20 * In 1957, express reefers apparently used as can cars from Salamanca=20 (NY) to Penn Station (NY) via Harrisburg (PA). Go here:=20 http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/Consists_InterRegion_Passenger_April2 = 8_1957_150dpi_bw.pdf=20 and scroll down to Train #2. One would think any milk out of=20 Salamanca would have been carried by the Erie to Jersey City but I=20 guess for a dairy in New York City or out on L.I. the PRR was the=20 smarter move.=20 I'm sure there's a lot more info to be mined from these pages. But it=20 opens up an aspect of New York City milk operations that I've never=20 seen written about in the usual magazines (perhaps the PRR society=20 covered it). The use of PRR express reefers as can cars is also=20 interesting.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C40826.31E335D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [PRR] Milk Cans
From very clear recollection, the = Erie  milk=20 cars were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in = Jersey City=20 east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = terminal=20 throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this was insight = of the=20 PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 = 11:16=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk = Cans

Listers,

This is from the Milk trains list.

Chris Chany

Subject: PRR milk service into New York City =

Stumbled onto this website while looking for things = unrelated=20 to milk:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/

Some PDF files with consist books are listed near = the top of=20 the
page. Just a brief perusal turned up = some very=20 interesting stuff
that, not being a PRR fan, = I had no=20 prior knowledge about. It appears
the PRR = did some=20 serious hauling of milk into the New York City area,
Long Island in particular, using both their own Class R50b = express=20
reefers (the ones Walthers is bringing out) = as well as=20 milk tank cars
(I assume GPEX). Here are = just two=20 examples I found after the
briefest of=20 perusals:

* In 1943, there were a whole bunch of tank cars = plus an=20 express
reefer as a can car moving from Long = Island=20 (mostly Jamaica, from the
LIRR?) on Train = #RJ-11 to=20 various destinations in PA (I think if I'm
guessing=20 correctly on the abbreviations). Go here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/MakeUpOfTrains_NYDivisio= nNo6_Nov14,19=20
43_300mono.pdf

and scroll down to the fourth page.

* In 1957, express reefers apparently used as can = cars from=20 Salamanca
(NY) to Penn Station (NY) via = Harrisburg=20 (PA). Go here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/Consists_InterRegion_Pas= senger_April2=20
8_1957_150dpi_bw.pdf

and scroll down to Train #2. One would think any = milk out of=20
Salamanca would have been carried by the = Erie to=20 Jersey City but I
guess for a dairy in New = York City=20 or out on L.I. the PRR was the
smarter = move.=20

I'm sure there's a lot more info to be mined from = these pages.=20 But it
opens up an aspect of New York City = milk=20 operations that I've never
seen written = about in the=20 usual magazines (perhaps the PRR society
covered it).=20 The use of PRR express reefers as can cars is also
interesting.


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C40826.31E335D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:59:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay, now you dun it!!! Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... Train 13 out of New York R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. Train 72 from Pittsburgh R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other railroads. Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's what's there... J. H. Capwell Willard G. Metzler Freight Station Passing Siding Freight Station Public Track Neff Milling Comp Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:14:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Chautauqua branch ended at Brocton, NY & the PRR had trackage rights on the Nickel Plate up to Buffalo. --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Day" Subject: [PRR] Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:48:46 -0500 List, I'm just finishing up a Walthers SW1 and need to place the horn on it. = Was wondering where it and the bell went if the PRR changed positions on = the bell. Doug (OH) ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40849.80EC9680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,
 
I'm just finishing up a Walthers SW1 = and need to=20 place the horn on it.  Was wondering where it and the bell went if = the PRR=20 changed positions on the bell.
 
Doug (OH)
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40849.80EC9680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:06:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Salamanca is just above the PA border toward the western region of NY. As you say, it was on the mainline of the Erie. A B&O line went N/S through there to Buffalo & Rochester - now the Buffalo & Pittsburgh. There was a PRR line near there running more or less N/S. I'd guess it was part of the Chatauqua branch. I suspect Jerry Shickler's website on the P&E, E&P, & Chatauqua Branches can shed light on it. I agree with whoever wondered why milk cars went to the New York City area via PRR instead of the Erie. PRR would have had to go a little ways south, then down the Buffalo Line to Harrisburg, Mainline to Philly, and back up to NYC. But remembering the Erie, the PRR may well have been quicker. If you drive across route 17/I-86, just after you cross route 220 (N/S), you'll see the B&P and the old PRR right-of-way crossing the B&P at an angle below the Interstate. As an aside, there is an Indian Reservation in Salamanca and every few years they go on the warpath (seriously!) when the governor tries to tax them in clear violation of the treaty making their reservations sovereign lands. They drop burning tires from overpasses on cars on the Interstate. Since Interstates are government property, that brings the Bureau of Indian Affairs into the act. They have much experience in these matters and usually get things calmed down and settled quickly, explaining to the governor once again that he can't do that. And now you know the rest of the story. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:03:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Shickler" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic > The Chautauqua branch ended at Brocton, NY & the PRR had trackage rights on > the Nickel Plate up to Buffalo. > --- > Oops. Just checked mapquest. Salamanca wasn't where I thought. Nevermind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:11:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry Britton said: But Jerry, you just answered a question the list has been struggling with for days! The rest of us should have thought to check the 1954 Makeup of Trains, of course. And naturally, right after I sent my previous message, Jerry Shickler's reply showed up. Nice to know he's watching, though. But that info. from the '54 Makeup of Trains does confirm that my memory is (sorta) working and there really were trains hauling milk in '54. Thanks! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:15:48 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <000b01c40875$e2146600$164d1818@stny.rr.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Perhaps the milk cars were destined for creameries in Long Island City and a trip via Sunnyside was faster than a car float across the Hudson from the Erie docks. Regards Andy Miller -----Original Message----- (in part) From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:06 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Salamanca . . . I agree with whoever wondered why milk cars went to the New York City area via PRR instead of the Erie. PRR would have had to go a little ways south, then down the Buffalo Line to Harrisburg, Mainline to Philly, and back up to NYC. But remembering the Erie, the PRR may well have been quicker. . . . Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:52:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars In a message dated 3/12/2004 2:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: know the New England area produced a lot of milk and milk products. What I would like to see some photos of milk cars say traveling over Horseshoe. Again, I know it probably happened but I've never seen any proof of it. I model 1957 and would like to justify some milk cars for my trains According to Stegmaier's consist book, the Pennsylvania Limited carried 2 milk cars one Chicago to Philadelphia and one Chicago to New York, the Admiral carried on milk and perishables car Chicago to Philadelphia; the Spirit of St. Louis carried 2 milk cars off the Buffalo line Harrisburg to New York; train 13 carried milk tank cars from Philadelphia to Bedford and Huntington. I realize this is 1952 data but the point is milk was being hauled in passenger consists and except for the west bound tank cars from Philadelphia it was hauled in R50b's. So seeing milk cars on the Curve was possible if you have photos of the above trains. Rich Orr -------------------------------1079128324 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/12/2004 2:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, CENTGA@a= ol.com writes:
know the New England area produced a lot of mi= lk and milk products. What I would like to see some photos of milk cars say=20= traveling over Horseshoe. Again, I know it probably happened but I've never=20= seen any proof of it. I model 1957 and would like to justify some milk cars=20= for my trains
According to Stegmaier's consist book, the Pennsylvania Limited carried= 2 milk cars one Chicago to Philadelphia and one Chicago to New York, the Ad= miral carried on milk and perishables car Chicago to Philadelphia; the Spiri= t of St. Louis carried 2 milk cars off the Buffalo line Harrisburg to New Yo= rk; train 13 carried milk tank cars from Philadelphia to Bedford and Hunting= ton.
 
I realize this is 1952 data but the point is milk was being hauled in p= assenger consists and except for the west bound tank cars from Philadelphia=20= it was hauled in R50b's. 
 
So seeing milk cars on the Curve was possible if you have photos of the= above trains.
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1079128324-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:38:51 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Salamanca and PRR From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:04:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002d01c40877$30850190$07fe6ec0@MM119805PC> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Perhaps the milk cars were destined for creameries in Long Island City and a trip via Sunnyside was faster than a car float across the Hudson from the Erie docks. There were RB50s unloaded in Long Island City at the east end of the PRR part of Sunnyside Yard for Silvercup Bread. I remember this operation in the late 40's early 50's. It took place adjacent to the big Army APO facility on Northern Blvd. See it's good to have the geezers around. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:06:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: There were RB50s unloaded in Long Island City at the east end of the PRR part of Sunnyside Yard for Silvercup Bread. That should have read R50b's. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of Bell Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:01:10 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2004 02:04:10.0419 (UTC) FILETIME=[797BB830:01C4089F] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I must add: Rule 32: The unnecessary use of either the whistle or the bell is prohibited. (This is right out of PRR Rule Book for 1925). This is for modelers. LOL How many times when we are "playing", do we use the bell or whistle just for the fun of it. This behavior is prohibited. LOL Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Specific gravity of milk and related topics Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Specific gravity of milk and related topics From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] additional milk car resources Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:19:33 -0500 List, Bill B. has given the main listing for milk cars, so I will toss in = these: http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/index.htm ; Rutland RR http://sussexbranchmemorial.com/ ; DL&W http://vuhs.org/arrhs/ ; Addison RR http://www.apocalypse.org/~jbvb/rr/bmrr/b_and_m.html; B&M This list is from a group called : The Pfaudlers, they concentrate on = the NE milk trains, however, many of these cars were used into NY & Pa. Anyone have a line on cars of this type used on Lines West, in = particular from Columbus to Pitts.??? Thanks Fred in Vt. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C40890.DC4E2C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,
     Bill B. has = given the main=20 listing for milk cars, so I will toss in these:
http://users.rcn.com/jimdu= 4/index.htm=20 ; Rutland RR
http://sussexbranchmemorial.com= /=20 ;      DL&W
http://vuhs.org/arrhs/=20 ;            =             &= nbsp;=20 Addison RR
http://www.= apocalypse.org/~jbvb/rr/bmrr/b_and_m.html; =20 B&M
 
This list is from a group called : The = Pfaudlers,=20 they concentrate on the NE milk trains, however, many of these cars were = used=20 into NY & Pa.
 
Anyone have a line on cars of this type = used on=20 Lines West, in particular from Columbus to Pitts.???
         =20 Thanks       Fred in=20 Vt.
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C40890.DC4E2C40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Tanks on Flatcar Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:30:36 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben, I wonder if Dominic has that unique brass model (I forget the prototype) of two tank trailers on a flat. I guess in that case it might be considered an early example of TOFC, and I don't know if it predates the North Shore service. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Dominic Mazoch asked: > I have a model of 2 tanks on a flatcar. Is this an early example of TOFC? > > No, as TOFC = Trailer On Flat Car. > > The tanks were carried on the flats without their chassis. If anything, this is an early example of COFC. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:57:51 -0600 While at Chicagoland Hobbies today, I noticed a seemingly brand new book = by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol. 1. Browsing, it did answer a few = questions on colors, among other things, but still left a lot up in the = air. However, it is $15 soft cover and does shed some light on the = quite a few of the cars and users. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C4089E.97981D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
While at Chicagoland Hobbies today, I = noticed a=20 seemingly brand new book by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol. 1. = Browsing, it=20 did answer a few questions on colors, among other things, but still left = a lot=20 up in the air.  However, it is $15 soft cover and does shed some = light on=20 the quite a few of the cars and users.
 
Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C4089E.97981D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:38:27 -0500 Re: I noticed a seemingly brand new book by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol. 1. I believe he also has volumes 2 and 3 out. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C408CE.2CA39620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Re: I noticed a=20 seemingly brand new book by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol.=20 1.
 
I = believe he also=20 has volumes 2 and 3 out.
 
Al
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C408CE.2CA39620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:25:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet-Valley Forge. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello list members.. What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've never been to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first one. Just curious. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Milk & Cow Technology Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:54:26 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I spent the first 10 years of my misguided youth (1940's) in Franklin PA on the Oil City Branch. I grew up on raw milk, straight from cow to you. I'm told if I drank raw milk now I'd come down with unmentionable if not uncurable diseases. And, of course, selling raw milk is now presumably illegal. Back then, I guess we developed the necessary antibodies. Guess we had the required resistance to all that coal smoke, too. Or maybe that explains some of our idiosynchrasies! Just reflecting in Big Flats. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Latowsky" Subject: [PRR] Trainphone Equipped N5c Assignment Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:55:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello List, Is there any evidence that any trainphone-equipped N5c's were assigned to the New York division in the late 1940's? The cabin car database on the Keystone Crossings site lists only a handful of N5's with trainphone in the division, but is based on 1957 data. Regards, Martin Latowsky ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:39:38 -0600 Subject: [PRR] L1's as Snappers From: John Sheets Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:39:38 -0600 Subject: [PRR] L1's as Snappers From: John Sheets Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:39:09 -0500 From: jlmcdaniel Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk & Mad Cow Technology--- way off topic Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Whether or not you got sick depended upon the cow...the most worrisome diseases are tuberculosis and brucelosis. Healthy cows give healthy milk at the source, so to speak. The dairy farmers could add much more to the milk --staph, strep, fecal coliforms, etc. --if conditions were not sanitary. Since milk is a wonderful culture medium for bacteria, it has to be kept cold to keep this stuff from growing...think un-refrigerated railcar in late summer!) Pasteurization at the dairy kills the bugs that would otherwise take over. the table is from one of 15,000 Google hits for unpasteurized milk and disease... Jim McDaniel, TB control doc for Delmarva. Disease Organism Symptoms and Complications 1.Campylobacteriosis Campylobacter sp. bloody diarrhea 2. Salmonellosis Salmonella sp. bloody diarrhea 3. Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome E. coli O157:H7 diarrhea, kidney failure, death 4. Yersiniosis Yersinsia enterocolitica diarrhea 5. Listeriosis Listeria monocytogenes meningitis, blood infections 6. Tuberculosis Mycobacterium tuberculosis tuberculosis; pneumonia 7. Brucellosis Brucella sp. blood infections, heart infections 8. Cryptosporidiosis Cryptosporidium parvum diarrhea 9. Staphylococcal enterotoxin poisoning Staphylococcus aureus vomiting 10. Q fever Coxiella burnetti high fever, severe headache, muscle aches (can infect the liver and/or heart) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:05:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1's as Snappers MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, L1's were used in helper assignments between Altoona and Cresson. I have numerous photos of them in this service in the late 1940s. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:35:00 EST Subject: [PRR] L1's as snappers There were also used out of Phila. pushing up the Bryn Mawr Hill until the late 1950's -------------------------------1079220899 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" There were also used out of Phila. pushing up the Bryn Mawr Hill until th= e late 1950's -------------------------------1079220899-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] None Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:32:58 -0500 Steve Sejda; haven't forgotten you on the pictures. Lee ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40929.9C1D6DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve Sejda; haven't forgotten you on the pictures.
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40929.9C1D6DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk & Mad Cow Technology--- way off topic Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:52:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jim, You sure make me glad I've switched to soy milk. And don't tell me about diseases of soybeans! Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: "jlmcdaniel" To: "William Bigler" Cc: "robert netzlof" ; Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk & Mad Cow Technology--- way off topic > Whether or not you got sick depended upon the cow...the most worrisome > diseases are tuberculosis and brucelosis. Healthy cows give healthy > milk at the source, so to speak. The dairy farmers could add much more > to the milk --staph, strep, fecal coliforms, etc. --if conditions were > not sanitary. Since milk is a wonderful culture medium for bacteria, it > has to be kept cold to keep this stuff from growing...think > un-refrigerated railcar in late summer!) Pasteurization at the dairy > kills the bugs that would otherwise take over. > > the table is from one of 15,000 Google hits for unpasteurized milk and > disease... > > Jim McDaniel, TB control doc for Delmarva. > Disease > > Organism > > Symptoms and Complications > > 1.Campylobacteriosis Campylobacter sp. bloody diarrhea > 2. Salmonellosis Salmonella sp. bloody diarrhea > 3. Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome E. coli O157:H7 diarrhea, kidney failure, > death > 4. Yersiniosis Yersinsia enterocolitica diarrhea > 5. Listeriosis Listeria monocytogenes meningitis, blood infections > 6. Tuberculosis Mycobacterium tuberculosis tuberculosis; pneumonia > 7. Brucellosis Brucella sp. blood infections, heart infections > 8. Cryptosporidiosis Cryptosporidium parvum diarrhea > 9. Staphylococcal enterotoxin poisoning Staphylococcus aureus vomiting > 10. Q fever Coxiella burnetti high fever, severe headache, muscle aches > (can infect the liver and/or heart) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1's as Snappers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:56:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Not sure about the curve, but out of Emporium up Keating Hill (somewhere above 2.5%) in the steam days, passenger trains warranted L-1 helpers. They used 3 I-1's on freight. Why weren't video cameras invented half a century earlier? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sheets" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:39 PM Subject: [PRR] L1's as Snappers > Just reading the new Winter Keystone and the accounts of the test runs of > the first T-1's 6110, 6111. Fascinating to say the least! > > A number of these seemed to be on Mail and Express trains which routinely > needed helpers over the curve. > > Was somewhat surprised to see so many L-1's as helpers. Was that the > routine steam snapper in those days? what about later before the diesels > came? > > John > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:00:05 -0500 The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline list the PRR cars as painted in the = Pullman Green Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War). What exactly does this = mean? I always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold = stripes and lettering. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline = list the PRR=20 cars as painted in the Pullman = Green Scheme=20 Pennsylvania (Post War).  What exactly does this mean?  I = always=20 thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold stripes and=20 lettering.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:00:05 -0500 The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline list the PRR cars as painted in the = Pullman Green Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War). What exactly does this = mean? I always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold = stripes and lettering. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline = list the PRR=20 cars as painted in the Pullman = Green Scheme=20 Pennsylvania (Post War).  What exactly does this mean?  I = always=20 thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold stripes and=20 lettering.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:26:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR In a message dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Starting at the wye bridge in Oil City Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com=20= writes:


Starting at the wye bridge in O= il City


Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an o= ld tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Ti= tusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wron= g. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:26:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR In a message dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Starting at the wye bridge in Oil City Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com=20= writes:


Starting at the wye bridge in O= il City


Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an o= ld tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Ti= tusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wron= g. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:47:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The tunnel was on the Lake Shore and Michigan Central (NYC) line on the North side of the Allegheny River, west of Oil Creek. The old Erie line was also locate on this side of the river. The Pennsy was located on the South side of the river at this location. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: CENTGA@aol.com To: wb3iqe@rocketmail.com ; PRR-TALK@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR In a message dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: Starting at the wye bridge in Oil City Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:05:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:25:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet-Valley Forge. Dave writes: > Hello list members... >=20 > What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I'= ve=20 > never been to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first=20 > one. Just curious. >=20 > Dave Dave and all... Generally, there are seminars set up for the guest to attend, you get the=20 schedule and pattern you day after that. I seldom make all the seminars and=20= am=20 late for my own, from time to time ... just kidding. I appreciate it when t= he=20 host gives those in attendance =BD hour in between seminars as it seem like=20 anything else makes the crowd seem rushed.=20 Usually you bump into someone you would have never figure was going to be=20 there... There is always a model display room, open to all scales and all er= as.=20 Sometimes, but not always, like modelers gravitate together, I guess as they= =20 say there is strength in numbers... 3^) Then usually at lunch, about 11 Pe= nnsy=20 guys pile into a Volkswagen to grab a bite... 3^) After lunch you stroll the= =20 grounds and check out all the recent works form the local area models and a=20 good meet has more than just HO Scale freight cars and locomotive but also=20 includes both online and off line structures... Usually more fun than you w= ould=20 have expected for the money. And don't forget to BRING MODELS. All good meet= s=20 ask you to check your ego at the door and once in they strip search you just= in=20 case to make sure you didn't try to sneak your ego in ... not really but the= =20 idea here is not matter what level your modeling is currently when you walk=20 away you will be one more peg higher... Then when you show up on the list=20 afterwards we will know exactly what you saw and liked as you will be howlin= g to make=20 it the next PRR-PRO list project... JUST KIDDING ... Go for the fun of it an= d=20 share with the rest of us what you found...=20 Hey, Ben you going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR items?=20 Greg Martin=20 --part1_7e.495b5017.2d85d34f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dave writes:


Hello list members...

            &nbs= p;   What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've=20= never been to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first on= e. Just curious.

Dave


Dave and all...

Generally, there are seminars set up for the guest to attend, you get the sc= hedule and pattern you day after that. I seldom make all the seminars and am= late for my own, from time to time ... just kidding.  I appreciate it=20= when the host gives those in attendance =BD hour in between seminars as it s= eem like anything else makes the crowd seem rushed.

Usually you bump into someone you would have never figure was going to be th= ere... There is always a model display room, open to all scales and all eras= . Sometimes, but not always, like modelers gravitate together, I guess as th= ey say there is strength in numbers...  3^)  Then usually at lunch= , about 11 Pennsy guys pile into a Volkswagen to grab a bite... 3^) After lu= nch you stroll the grounds and check out all the recent works form the local= area models and a good meet has more than just HO Scale freight cars and lo= comotive but also includes both online and off line structures...  Usua= lly more fun than you would have expected for the money. And don't forget to= BRING MODELS. All good meets ask you to check your ego at the door and once= in they strip search you just in case to make sure you didn't try to sneak=20= your ego in ... not really but the idea here is not matter what level your m= odeling is currently when you walk away you will be one more peg higher... T= hen when you show up on the list afterwards we will know exactly what you sa= w and liked as you will be howling to make it the next PRR-PRO list project.= .. JUST KIDDING ... Go for the fun of it and share with the rest of us what=20= you found...

Hey, Ben you going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR items?

Greg Martin

--part1_7e.495b5017.2d85d34f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RYagodich@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:42:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines East Towers To List, Some time back their was some discussion on PRR Towers. Don't remember if these things were covered. I have three questions: What are the interior wall colors inside the towers? What color were the exterior doors and windows painted on the brick towers? (The doors are obviously wood. The windows, on the tower that I'm modeling, look like the thin, lattice, metal framed windows.) During the 1940 thru 1955 time period, what color was the wooden bay painted? Was it one color or two tone? Thanks in advance for any help provided. Bob -------------------------------1079278962 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
To List,
Some time back their was some discussion on PRR Towers. Don't reme= mber if these things were covered. I have three questions:
What are the interior wall colors inside the towers? What color were th= e exterior doors and windows painted on the brick towers? (The doors are obv= iously wood. The windows, on the tower that I'm modeling, look like the thin= , lattice, metal framed windows.)
During the 1940 thru 1955 time period, what color was the wooden bay pa= inted?  Was it one color or two tone? Thanks in advance for any help pr= ovided.
 
Bob
-------------------------------1079278962-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Cars Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:16:27 -0500 From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Cars Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:16:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:08:59 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: mtevans@jps.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West towers X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:
John Frantz" said,

I've been on a tower kick late= ly. For the gentelmen that
model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough s= tandard design
for a brick interlocking tower?

TAOT

Best= Regards,
John
 
Gentlemen:
 
As Rick Tipton noted, th= ere was a very common PRR brick tower design found in numerous lo= cations on Lines West.

A drawing of this type of PRR tower can be fo= und in the article entitled "Piqua Crossing" in the March 1979 issue of Rai= lroad Model Craftsman. The tower in the drawing was located at Piqua, OH.
Similar towers were located at various locations throughout the Midwe= st. Examples include [you may have to cut and paste url's into your browser= ]:

Alum Creek, OH

http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/prr-t= owers/AlumCreek-Oh= 1.htm

Dunkirk, OH

http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers= /Dunkirk1.htm

Race Tower, Logansport, IN

http://groups.yahoo.com/= group/PennsyWest/files/Photographs/Interlocking%20Towers/Race.JPG

Smithboro, IL
<= FONT face=3Dgeneva,arial,sans-serif size=3D2>http://internetcashpla= net.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers/Smithboro1.htm

Vandalia, IL

http= ://groups.yahoo.com/group/InterlockingTowers/files/IllinoisTowers/ic-van-twr-v.jpg
There are likely others that I haven't found yet. Anyone know of more?
=
There are additonal photos of some of the towers mentioned above, inclu= ding interior shots, at this site:

http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-T= owers/default.htm

These towers seem to be pretty much identical, with some minor= detail differences. Piqua tower, for instance, had a sheet metal covering = at the top of the front tower wall. Also, door, window, and chimmney locati= ons vary a little. I think Race tower is a good compromise for a model, as = it appears to have typical features.

I'd love to see a high-quality = kit of one of these brick towers.

Yours truly,

Mark T. Evans<= BR>Anaheim, CA
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:28:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West towers In a message dated 3/14/2004 1:12:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes: > There are additonal photos of some of the towers mentioned above, including > interior shots, at this site: > > http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers/default.htm > > Loved this posting! It included a photo of Wandle Tower, where the PFtW&C crossed the Wheeling & Lake Erie (WandLE). My dad used to take me train-watching there when I was about 2 to 4. I distinctly remember trying to understand when he told me there was no more W&LE because it had been leased to the NKP for what seemed to a little guy like an impossibly long time (99 or 999 years, I forget.) Now there is once again a W&LE -- one of the few signs of hope in today's world. Perhaps it is an omen that some day again there will be a PRR. Thanks for the memory. Lee Rainey --part1_38.437032fa.2d8652c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/14/2004 1:12:1= 8 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes:


There are additonal photos of s= ome of the towers mentioned above, including interior shots, at this site:
http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers/default.htm<= /FONT>=



Loved this posting! It included a photo of Wandle Tower, where the PFtW&= C crossed the Wheeling & Lake Erie (WandLE). My dad used to take me trai= n-watching there when I was about 2 to 4. I distinctly remember trying to un= derstand when he told me there was no more W&LE because it had been leas= ed to the NKP for what seemed to a little guy like an impossibly long time (= 99 or 999 years, I forget.) Now there is once again a W&LE -- one of the= few signs of hope in today's world. Perhaps it is an omen that some day aga= in there will be a PRR.

Thanks for the memory.

Lee Rainey --part1_38.437032fa.2d8652c4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <8AE6877C-7618-11D8-A239-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Speaking of MS-60's... (again) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:34:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What? Did you think I was going to bring up milk cars again? ;-) We last visited the "What is a MS60 debate?" about two months ago, when Stegmaier's book on 1952 passenger consists came out. I had called Harry and he indicated that, yes, an X29 could qualify as an MS60 in a passenger consist. But, again, we had no hard PRR reference. He thought it had to do with cubic footage of storage (since other cars had equivalent square footage but did not qualify). I have found a semi-Holy Grail: An official PRR document on making up passenger consists that reads "For MS60, Express, or Paper use R50 or X29 unless otherwise specified." Finally, something spelling out the use for an X29 in REA service!!! In the 1954 "Makeup of Trains" book that I have, there are only a couple of "X29" references; there are a few "MS60, R50, or X29" references; but there are dozens of spots that are to be filled by "MS60". Finally I can correctly put X29's into those spots! BTW, I will have this document posted on Keystone Crossings in about a week. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron & Marilyn Mele" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:57:18 -0600 >Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the >remains = of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad >on the road = leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for >highway traffic = but I could be wrong. Know anything about it?=20 The Central had a small yard located just beyond the north portal of = the tunnel and an interchange with the PRR's Chautauqua Branch. This = trackage was probably abandoned early in the Penn Central era though I = don't have an exact date.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C409FE.8E4D72C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
 


>Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came = across the=20 >remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad = >on=20 the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for = >highway=20 traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it?
 
The Central had a small yard located just beyond the north portal = of the=20 tunnel and an interchange with the PRR's Chautauqua Branch. This = trackage=20 was probably abandoned early in the Penn Central era though I don't = have an=20 exact date.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C409FE.8E4D72C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:12:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 02:12:52.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[053C3C20:01C40A33] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To the list at large, Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most prevalent in a single area of assignment. Another thought is what would be the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the many flavors the class was assigned over their life. Another question, was the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I locomotives? Thanks in Advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:12:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 02:12:52.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[053C3C20:01C40A33] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To the list at large, Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most prevalent in a single area of assignment. Another thought is what would be the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the many flavors the class was assigned over their life. Another question, was the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I locomotives? Thanks in Advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:23:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <009f01c4086e$970db820$960100c0@ges> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.7.165.29] at Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:23:40 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, The PRR between Brocton and Buffalo had it's own track on the south side of the Plate. The Plate and PRR operated this section as double track. It was not trackage rights. Don Murphy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Shickler Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:14 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic The Chautauqua branch ended at Brocton, NY & the PRR had trackage rights on the Nickel Plate up to Buffalo. --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:33:11 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Harry and List: Class 90F82 was always the most common tender on I1s and I1sa locomotives. All 598 were built with 90F82 tenders. In later years larger tenders were built and assigned to I1 locomotives. In the following are quantities of freight tenders with 82" decks for a few representative years: 1930: 90F82 - 495 130F82 - 1 130F82a - 100 180F82 - 1 210F82 - 1 1-1-1948 (104 I1s + 494 I1sa): 90F82 - 567 130F82 - 1 180F82 - 1 210F82 - 1 210F82a - 28 1-1-1952 (488 I1sa): 90F82 - 440 130F82 - 1 180F82 - 1 180F82a - 5 210F82 - 3 210F82a - 36 210F82b - 3 250F82 - 1 250F82a - 3 1-1-1956 (194 I1sa): 90F82 - 148 130F82 - 1 130F82a - 4 180F82a - 3 210F82 - 4 210F82a - 35 210F82b - 3 250F82 - 1 250F82a - 4 Note that there were excess tenders at some times. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Class I1 tender population | | To the list at large, | | Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 | locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? | I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most | prevalent in a single area of assignment. Another thought is what would be | the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the | lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the | many flavors the class was assigned over their life. Another question, was | the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I | locomotives? | | Thanks in Advance, | | Harry Fitch ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:31:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = > were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey = > City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = > terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this = > was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=20 > I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?" I was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper roofing on it. Was I at JH? I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffered massive redevelopment. I assume the only thing recognizable from the whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfront and is again lit. PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN works, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio River Bridge. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very cl= ear recollection, the Erie  milk cars =3D
were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey =3D City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the =3D
terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this =3D was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=3D20


I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?"  I was= once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper ro= ofing on it.  Was I at JH?

I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffer= ed massive redevelopment.  I assume the only thing recognizable from th= e whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfro= nt and is again lit.

PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN wo= rks, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio Rive= r Bridge.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:31:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = > were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey = > City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = > terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this = > was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=20 > I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?" I was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper roofing on it. Was I at JH? I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffered massive redevelopment. I assume the only thing recognizable from the whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfront and is again lit. PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN works, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio River Bridge. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very cl= ear recollection, the Erie  milk cars =3D
were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey =3D City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the =3D
terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this =3D was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=3D20


I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?"  I was= once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper ro= ofing on it.  Was I at JH?

I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffer= ed massive redevelopment.  I assume the only thing recognizable from th= e whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfro= nt and is again lit.

PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN wo= rks, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio Rive= r Bridge.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Another tender question Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:32:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 11:32:50.0183 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F460970:01C40A81] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another tender question? (no pun intended) Thanks for all who input information on the class I1 tender question. Another thought on this subject of tenders. Has anyone a listing of tender deck heights for all classes including both stoker and non stoker equipped dimensions? Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Another tender question Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:28:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 883A1CE2-E5604036-984679BA-6B313CF1 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: http://www.wsbcos.com/tenders.htm Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Harry Fitch Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 6:33 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Another tender question Another tender question? (no pun intended) Thanks for all who input information on the class I1 tender question. Another thought on this subject of tenders. Has anyone a listing of tender deck heights for all classes including both stoker and non stoker equipped dimensions? Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:54:46 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Another tender question > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:14:06 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/13/04 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic (was PRR-Talk Digest - 03/13/04) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:39:16 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic (was PRR-Talk Digest - 03/13/04) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:39:16 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:05:16 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's and SPAM From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:10:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 16:07:19.0591 (UTC) FILETIME=[97CE4370:01C40AA7] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was in Strasburg on Saturday to check out 89 in it's new CN look (looks great!). I was really disturbed to see the PRR steamers accross the street though. 460, the L1, and the K4 are now all sitting outside, without jacketing. The M1 is also without jacketing. I know funds are tight in PA right now, but they really look awful. I like the M1's new position (although in a perfect world it would be inside as well, but that tender is just monstorous!), but I sure hope they don't intend on keeping the K4 out there permently. You can already see new rust on the engine. I have always been concerned with some of their choices of what goes inside there (far to many pieces of rolling stock, and other lack luster pieces that should be moved to make room for more of the priceless engines, i.e. 4800. I don't care about yet another shay, or heilser, or fireless cooker when the very first GG1 is rusting away outside, much less the K4, L1, etc. as a RR preservation advocate I hate to see any locomotive or car lost to the weather, but sometimes choices have to be made, and I don't agree with some of the one's they have made. ). 460 has been outside now since last summer. I am very concerned about this, does anyone know what is going on? Why are 3 of the most valuable pieces in the collection sitting outside in the weather again after we tax payers paid for the building expasion to protect them? I can understand a few months while they were removing the lagging for EPA reasons, but this is getting to be a long time now, and after this past winter the locos are starting to show it. If anyone from the RR Museum of PA is reading this please get them back inside! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:45:55 -0500 From: Ed Workman Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:45:55 -0500 From: Ed Workman Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] That tunnel at Oil City, a reference Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:07:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 10,14-22 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have to agree with you, Tom. When a Museum swears to never operate their collection again as a matter of preservation, isn't it somewhat of a digression to leave those same priceless pieces out in the weather? Asbestos abatement is a serious issue, and I can understand the Museum wanting the work done outdoors. The 4800 should have been indoors from the start, imho. Other items from the collection should be moved under cover or replaced entirely (the MP54 comes to mind). Still, each of these pieces remains in the custody of persons who have their best interest at heart. The most fragile of the rolling stock must be kept dry. The locos needing the greatest attention on sheet metal should be indoors next. On the other hand, if RRMPa would like to shuffle each engine across the street for a complete operations rebuild, well, that's okay with me too! I hate to have to resolve myself to the 460 never having hot grates again. Dick Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but there are many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Milk cans, cars, trains & traffic Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:33:51 +0000 From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:09:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Regarding the tunnel at Oil City - It most likely was the tunnel on the NYC line from Stoneboro, PA to Oil City. The tunnel was abandoned in about 1964 due to unsafe conditions. There was not enough traffic to or from Oil City to justify the cost to rebuild it. I was in the NYC industrial development office in Pittsburgh at that time and I remember assuring the few on line customers between Franklin and Oil City that service would be continued. As I recall the line was abandoned near the town of Reno which was the location of a Wolfs Head Oil Co. refinery - the major shipper on the line. Up until some time in the "depression" the PRO had truckage rights over this line from Stoneboro to Oil City and ran trains from New Castle to Oil City. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:56:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City So Oil City had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. During my trip there I didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure it was larger in it's day. My question is didn't pipelines carry much of the oil from an early time? What and how much business would the railroads have had there in say the 50's? Todd Horton --part1_1ef.1b93cb6e.2d87c6e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" So Oil=20= City had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. During my trip t= here I didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure it was larger in it'= s day. My question is didn't pipelines carry much of the oil from an early t= ime? What and how much business would the railroads have had there in say th= e 50's? Todd Horton --part1_1ef.1b93cb6e.2d87c6e0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:31:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 9A520A86-14334202-BACE2567-F47BAF68 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Can't speak to all the rusting hulks, but my limited understanding of the situation around the 4800 is - It is not owned by the RRMPA so it does not get the premium space inside. I think if you check back through the PRR-Talk archives that this has been a matter of discussion several times. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:12:44 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] GG1 4800 at RRMPA Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Wayne and the List: In a nutshell: This was true at one time; the 4800 was rescued by, owned by, and preserved by Lancaster Chapter NRHS. For a number of years, the chapter was justly proud of its accomplishment and wished to hold on to ownership. In the interim, a private individual bought the 4935 and paid for its restoration, and then donated it to the museum. RMPa then faced a difficult decision, and it chose to place the GG1 it owned under protective roof. At some point years later, the Chapter changed its decision and donated the 4800 to the museum, which now owns both. Dan Cupper ... at the western frontier of still-energized PRR catenary, in Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------- Wayne S. Betty wrote: >Can't speak to all the rusting hulks, but my limited understanding of the >situation around the 4800 is - >It is not owned by the RRMPA so it does not get the premium space inside. >I think if you check back through the PRR-Talk archives that this has been a >matter of discussion several times. > >Cos >Wayne S. Betty >Cos Communications, Inc. >Small business IT services. > >Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road >NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 >NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 >http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm >at the west end of the PRR electrified zone > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:54 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Tom and Gentelmen, This evening I asked a member of the restoration team about the issues raised earlier today. As it stands right now it is unknown when the jackets will be placed back on the boilers of the 460, L1 and 3750. Also, every inch of availble railspace is taken inside the museum. The team at the RRMPA has done its best with the space provided to portray its name the Railroad Museum of PENNSYLVANIA. NOT the Railroad Museum of the Pennsylvania Railroad. For some to see another shay or heisler is desired, but all of the pieces inside and outside the museum tell a story of the past and present of the rail industry in PA. I can tell you from personal experience that the curator has his best interest in preserving history. I've seen examples at otehr mueums where a car at one point was pristine, but since a window gasket wasn't "prototypical" the car was left outside in the weather until the point now, two curators later and the car is literally falling aaprt with mold and mildew. If a person feels something should be done, contribute. Wheteher through volunteer hours or charitable giving. As my friend said rather bluntly. "If you want it inside, show me the money for an expansion." Personally IMHO he's right. Granted, you can argue that residents such as myself contribute through taxes, but the amount a single person contributes is pennies compared to what is actually needed to restore, renovate, and maintain its collection. Join the FRM, let your opinion be heard. The worst that can happen is someone says, "No, it can't happen right now." My 10 cents, John "Tom von Trott" wrote: I was in Strasburg on Saturday to check out 89 in it's new CN look (looks great!). I was really disturbed to see the PRR steamers accross the street though. 460, the L1, and the K4 are now all sitting outside, without jacketing. The M1 is also without jacketing. I know funds are tight in PA right now, but they really look awful. I like the M1's new position (although in a perfect world it would be inside as well, but that tender is just monstorous!), but I sure hope they don't intend on keeping the K4 out there permently. You can already see new rust on the engine. I have always been concerned with some of their choices of what goes inside there (far to many pieces of rolling stock, and other lack luster pieces that should be moved to make room for more of the priceless engines, i.e. 4800. I don't care about yet another shay, or heilser, or fireless cooker when the very first GG1 is rusting away outside, much less the K4, L1, etc. as a RR preservation advocate I hate to see any locomotive or car lost to the weather, but sometimes choices have to be made, and I don't agree with some of the one's they have made. ). 460 has been outside now since last summer. I am very concerned about this, does anyone know what is going on? Why are 3 of the most valuable pieces in the collection sitting outside in the weather again after we tax payers paid for the building expasion to protect them? I can understand a few months while they were removing the lagging for EPA reasons, but this is getting to be a long time now, and after this past winter the locos are starting to show it. If anyone from the RR Museum of PA is reading this please get them back inside! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Circus Train at Warsaw, Indiana!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:23:17 -0500 PRR-Listers: CIRCUS TRAIN!! Circus Extra, headed by RS-27 2414, headed east though = Warsaw at 4:31 pm on June 22, 1965. The average travel speed between = Plymouth and Warsaw was just over 29 mph. Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C40AEC.E11C3BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
PRR-Listers:
 

CIRCUS = TRAIN!!=20 Circus Extra, headed by RS-27 2414, headed east though=20 Warsaw at 4:31 pm on June=20 22, 1965. The average travel speed between=20 Plymouth and=20 Warsaw was just over 29=20 mph.

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C40AEC.E11C3BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Another B&O train through Warsaw Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:53:47 -0500 "B+O Extra," an eastbound, went through Warsaw at 7:02am on June 20, = 1965. It was lead by B&O 4544, an F-7A. This is the third B&O train to = use the PRR Ft. Wayne Line in 1965. Ted=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C40B2B.D0775FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

=93B+O = Extra,=94 an=20 eastbound, went through  Warsaw=20 at 7:02am on June 20, 1965. It was lead by B&O = 4544, an=20 F-7A. This is the third B&O train to use the PRR Ft. Wayne Line in=20 1965.

 

Ted 

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C40B2B.D0775FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:40:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reading Harrisburg Yard Map From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <7A133901-774F-11D8-8019-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've posted to Keystone Crossings (Maps section) a Reading Company map of their Harrisburg yard. I've included it on my Pennsy site as it rather clearly shows much of the PRR plant and how the two lines integrated. Dated 1934 and corrected to 1972. Scale is 1" = 400'. Here is a direct link... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/images/rdg_hbg_map.jpg Provided by Dan Cupper. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Atlas Engine/Decoder Question Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:35:35 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:08:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reefer Page From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've reorganized the reefer page. Comments welcome... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Before I described the companies, then the paint schemes, then the available N scale models (HO coming). I have changed it to now show under the header for each company its paint schemes and available models. I've also added more info about the founding of FGE and the participating railroads. I just learned -- maybe you already knew -- that FGE founded National Car Company as a subsidiary to handle meat reefers (Kahns, Oscar Meyer, Roth, Pepper, etc.). I didn't know they were related. Much more will be coming on the PFE. I just got in the "Pacific Fruit Express" book (second edition) from Signature Press. This thing is a text book!!! It's about an inch and a half thick. It has histories of the company, of each and every car type, of all of the facilities. It goes into thorough detail of the movement of each and every type of produce. Talks about various cooling methods. Has a section which "follows a car" for several eras. There is a 1953 example of a car coming east and being interchanged with the PRR to Philadelphia. For anyone interested in reefer ops, this book is a gem. Suggested retail is $75. Expensive, but I'm telling ya... Just wish there was a book like this for Our Companies (FGE / WFE / BREX). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:44:47 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 11:32 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Found this web site that the guy tells how he weathered this car. To > my eyes it looks pretty good and a new technique for me any way. > > http://www.weatheringdoctor.com/PennsyExpressReefer.html I debated replying to this under the "if you can say something nice..." rule and because I think that the modeler has done a really intricate and nice job of weathering the car...I just question if it the correct type of weathering for this type of car. One of the things I noticed in studying the weathering patterns of R50Bs and X29s in express service is that they get all-over grungy rather than showing a vertical streaky paint job. Boxcars are more likely to show that vertical pattern...or perhaps an R50B that's been sitting in storage for a while I would be interested in seeing a prototype R50B (in service) with that type of weathering pattern. Since the express cars are moving, and usually at some speed, the dirt/moisture get distributed horizontally, not vertically. The technique shown by Mr. Simpkins, which is very similar to Jim Six's "Q-tip" weathering is a great approach for weathering house cars... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Bill Volkmer Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:12:25 -0500 I was on this site for the museum of PA, does this reference the same = Mr. Volkmer that shares his knowledge and experience on the list ? =20 =20 While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous "Lindbergh Engine" found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general = foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to the = venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received periodic = lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted.=20 http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm =20 Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40B60.B5923380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
I was = on this site=20 for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that = shares his=20 knowledge and experience on the list ?
 
 

While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, = the=20 once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former PRR = management trainee=20 named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the = facility as=20 a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant = liking to=20 the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received = periodic=20 lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted.=20

http://www.rrmuseu= mpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm
 
Kenny
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40B60.B5923380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:20:04 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering From: "Bruce Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:42:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Guys, I recall seeing R50b's from LIRR trains from and to Penn Station many times, often on the adjacent track, and they were almost uniformly filthy - not as filthy as a New York City subway car of that era, but close............. The grime was the color of a mixture of rail brown and weathered black to use model railroad colors. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zak" To: "PRR-Talk" Cc: "Bruce Smith" ; Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering > While I'd never claim to be any kind of an expert on weathering, a year or > so ago I found a site that I believe dealt with the Chicago yards. In it, > there was a page on reefers, and there was a pix of a PRR reefer. > > Although it was a B&W picture, it clearly showed that the next time the car > would see a hose and water would probably be the first! Lettering on the > side of the car was barely visible. > > In the text of that "article", the writer stated that the outside of these > cars were seldom cleaned. > > As I said, I'm no expert. The only reason this stuck in my mind is that > this PRR car had wound up in California -- San Francisco, I believe. > > I hope this may have been of some help. > > Zak > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Smith" > To: > Cc: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering > > > > > > On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 11:32 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > > > Found this web site that the guy tells how he weathered this car. To > > > my eyes it looks pretty good and a new technique for me any way. > > > > > > http://www.weatheringdoctor.com/PennsyExpressReefer.html > > > > I debated replying to this under the "if you can say something nice..." > > rule and because I think that the modeler has done a really intricate > > and nice job of weathering the car...I just question if it the correct > > type of weathering for this type of car. One of the things I noticed > > in studying the weathering patterns of R50Bs and X29s in express > > service is that they get all-over grungy rather than showing a vertical > > streaky paint job. Boxcars are more likely to show that vertical > > pattern...or perhaps an R50B that's been sitting in storage for a while > > I would be interested in seeing a prototype R50B (in service) > > with that type of weathering pattern. Since the express cars are > > moving, and usually at some speed, the dirt/moisture get distributed > > horizontally, not vertically. The technique shown by Mr. Simpkins, > > which is very similar to Jim Six's "Q-tip" weathering is a great > > approach for weathering house cars... > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Bill Volkmer Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:23:02 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Yes. Note his very detailed responses. -----Original Message----- From: Ken Nesbitt [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:12 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bill Volkmer I was on this site for the museum of PA, does this reference the same = Mr. Volkmer that shares his knowledge and experience on the list ? =20 =20 While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous = "Lindbergh Engine" found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named = William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general = foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to = the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received = periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads = permitted.=20 http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm =20 Kenny ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40BA5.3E8CA385 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message
Yes.  Note his very detailed=20 responses.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nesbitt=20 [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, = 2004 1:12=20 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Bill=20 Volkmer

I = was on this site=20 for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that = shares his=20 knowledge and experience on the list ?
 
 

While awaiting an uncertain future in = Northumberland, the=20 once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former = PRR management trainee=20 named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the = facility=20 as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an = instant=20 liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine = received=20 periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads = permitted.=20

http://www.rrmuseu= mpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm
 
Kenny
------_=_NextPart_001_01C40BA5.3E8CA385-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "prr643" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:32:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2004 04:32:54.0236 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA2521C0:01C40BD8] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Wow, I did not think I'd strike quite the nerve I did, I was just wondering if anyone knew what the deal was LOL, but I should have know that those 4 locos, plus all the others, would be close to many members railroad hearts. Just a few thoughts on John Frantz's response... > As it stands right now it is unknown when the jackets will > be placed back on the boilers of the 460, L1 and 3750. ouch, kinda scary, but as a particapant in various RR restoration projects I know the feeling. It is as was said by another, money, money, money. > Also, every inch of availble railspace is taken inside the > museum. by what? Three of the bigger steam pieces that were inside are now out (the L1, the K4, E6). A few years ago after the new expansion was finished I was very pleased to see the long neglected PRR locos inside (not to say the Freinds did not make a valient effort to keep them in as best shape as possible, they sure did, but the weather was winning the battle long term, as it always will), and looking great in new paint jobs. What did they do with the space? Is it diesel land inside? If so I won't need to pay to go in, what I want to see can be seen from the street. > > The team at the RRMPA has done its best with the space > provided to portray its name the Railroad Museum of > PENNSYLVANIA. NOT the Railroad Museum of the Pennsylvania > Railroad. The two are one in the same. It is true of course there was a lot of other RR history in this state, but the largest influence on all of it was the PRR. There was Baldwin in Philly, of course it's largest orders, came from the PRR. And of course Reading, B&O, shortlines, NKP, NYC, and on and on. But without the PRR, none of it really mattered. It was the backbone. For some to see another shay or heisler is > desired, but all of the pieces inside and outside the > museum tell a story of the past and present of the rail > industry in PA. I can tell you from personal experience > that the curator has his best interest in preserving > history. I've seen examples at otehr mueums where a car at > one point was pristine, but since a window gasket wasn't > "prototypical" the car was left outside in the weather > until the point now, two curators later and the car is > literally falling aaprt with mold and mildew. > Unfortunantly many museums of all types have this problem. To much for the space they have. They just got another loco, frankly, as much as I do like the idea of preserving an E60, they don't have the space, the man-power, or the money. Stop aquiring new stuff until you can keep the stuff you have in good shape! I very well may take your advice John and join the member rolls of the friends, been meaning to for years, just never quite got around to it. Now may be a good time. But the responses I received basically make me feel worse, not better, about the fate of the PRR's most historic pieces. I have to ask why they are using precious space inside for more fake buildings. We are not talking about minor pieces here! Sending the K4 or E6 out for asbestos removal and not keeping room inside for them is like if the Louver sent the Mona Lisa to be cleaned and decided to not put it back when finished! This to me shows a major shift in priorities of the organization. Only time will tell I guess, I hope I'm wrong. Tom von Trott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Honner" Subject: [PRR] Panhandle Help Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:19:34 +1100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Due to a burglary, a vast amount of data (unbacked up, of course!) went missing when my laptop was stolen from me. I am fortunate that some on this list have helped me in the past, and I am hopeful that you will be able to send to me again. I would very much like: (1) Track charts of the Panhandle from Carnegie to Trinway, then down to Zanesville. Some kind stranger sent them to me a few months ago so if it is not too much trouble I would appreciate it being sent again. (2) Photographs of the Stuebenville bridge carrying the Panhandle main across the Ohio. I had several of these sent to me some time ago but I am sorry I cannot remember your name - please send again! If anybody else can help with these two requests I would appreciate it. A terrible thing to happen but it could be worse - they could have trashed or stolen my engines for a start. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bill Volkmer Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:17:58 -0500 See Trains Mag January 2004 issue for the "rest of the story". -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ken Nesbitt Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:12 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bill Volkmer I was on this site for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that shares his knowledge and experience on the list ? While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous "Lindbergh Engine" found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted. http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C40C00.C3463CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
See=20 Trains Mag January 2004 issue for the "rest of the = story".
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ken=20 Nesbitt
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:12 PM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Bill = Volkmer

I = was on this site=20 for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that = shares his=20 knowledge and experience on the list ?
 
 

While awaiting an uncertain future in = Northumberland, the=20 once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former = PRR management trainee=20 named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the = facility=20 as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an = instant=20 liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine = received=20 periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads = permitted.=20

http://www.rrmuseu= mpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm
 
Kenny
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C40C00.C3463CB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:24:15 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:24:15 +0000 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] PRR Tuckahoe Branch Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:46:07 -0500 I have come across an old map dated 1904 of the Northumberland yard area (the yard as yet was unbuilt at that time). The map shows a branch line operating a short distance to the northeast labelled the Tuckahoe Branch. It is my understanding that there was a mineral water bottling operation up in the hills near that area. Question 1: Was the line ever constructed? Question 2: Do any photos exist of the branch? Question 3: If yes to one or two, when was the line abandoned? It is hoped that Mr. Cupper might have some insight on this as I have a friend doing serious research on the railroads of the region. Thanks in advance for any help you all may want to share. Bill Volkmer ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C40C04.AC641860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
I have = come across=20 an old map dated 1904 of the Northumberland yard area (the yard as yet = was=20 unbuilt at that time).  The map shows a branch line operating a = short=20 distance to the northeast labelled the Tuckahoe Branch.  It is my=20 understanding that there was a mineral water bottling operation up in = the hills=20 near that area.
 
 
Question 1: =20 Was the line ever constructed?
 
Question 2:  Do=20 any photos exist of the branch?
 
Question 3:  If=20 yes to one or two, when was the line abandoned?
 
It is = hoped that Mr.=20 Cupper might have some insight on this as I have a friend doing serious = research=20 on the railroads of the region.
 
Thanks = in advance=20 for any help you all may want to share.
 
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C40C04.AC641860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:34:59 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) Big Day for the Pennsylvanian!!! =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Sunday March 14th was a big day for AMTRAK's westbound=20 Pennsylvanian. Returning college students from spring break swelled the cons= ist of #45 to 9=20 cars with over 500 passengers ON BOARD through most of the NYP PGH journey.=20 AMTRAK actually added a coach at Harrisburg westbound,( the train had 8 cars= =20 NYP to HAR) due to standee conditions. Unfortunately the train was well over= 2=20 hours late arriving Pittsburgh. But this is just another example of how good= =20 trains at convienient times can be very successful. --part1_11f.2c1d63c0.2d8a0263_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Big Day for the Pennsylvanian!!! =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Sunday March 14th was a big day for AMTRAK's westbound Pe= nnsylvanian. Returning college students from spring break swelled the consis= t of #45 to 9 cars with over 500 passengers ON BOARD through most of the NYP= PGH journey. AMTRAK actually added a coach at Harrisburg westbound,( the tr= ain had 8 cars NYP to HAR) due to standee conditions. Unfortunately the trai= n was well over 2 hours late arriving Pittsburgh. But this is just another e= xample of how good trains at convienient times can be very successful.
 --part1_11f.2c1d63c0.2d8a0263_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:20:16 -0600 Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 03:06 PM, Mark Taylor wrote: > List; I am building 2 BCW M70b's and I am wanting to double check the > instruction measurements against car builder plan dimensions ( I want > to get the right dimension for truck centers as well as the overall > length over the couplers). Can anyone give my the conversion for HO > scale against an inch /foot ruler. I need the decimal equivilent of an > HO scale foot / inch, as an example say 0.250 is equal to 1.75 ft. in > HO scale. I hope I am explaning this right. Mark Um, Mark... that would be 1:87.1 So one HO scale foot is 1 real foot divided by 87.1 which is 0.0115 real feet, or rephrased 1 HO scale foot = 0.0115 feet 1 HO scale foot = 0.0115*12 = 0.138 inches 1 HO scale inch = 0.138/12 = 0.0115 inches Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:20:16 -0600 Subject: TAN Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 03:06 PM, Mark Taylor wrote: > List; I am building 2 BCW M70b's and I am wanting to double check the > instruction measurements against car builder plan dimensions ( I want > to get the right dimension for truck centers as well as the overall > length over the couplers). Can anyone give my the conversion for HO > scale against an inch /foot ruler. I need the decimal equivilent of an > HO scale foot / inch, as an example say 0.250 is equal to 1.75 ft. in > HO scale. I hope I am explaning this right. Mark Um, Mark... that would be 1:87.1 So one HO scale foot is 1 real foot divided by 87.1 which is 0.0115 real feet, or rephrased 1 HO scale foot = 0.0115 feet 1 HO scale foot = 0.0115*12 = 0.138 inches 1 HO scale inch = 0.138/12 = 0.0115 inches Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:06:55 -0500 From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:06:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:53:00 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Crestline-Bucyrus From: Frederick Ripley From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion Thanks Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:26:37 -0500 From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion Thanks Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:26:37 -0500 From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:37:49 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mark, In real time to HO scale 1/8" or .0125 equals 1 HO foot. This would be fine except depdning if you print out a car builders dimension plan the plan is not to scale. This can be solved by buyin a scale rule, and equating a ratio to scale the drawing to be HO scale or full size if you so choose. I do this regularly at work as well as drawing up car sides in HO. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Mark Taylor" wrote: List; I am building 2 BCW M70b's and I am wanting to double check the instruction measurements against car builder plan dimensions ( I want to get the right dimension for truck centers as well as the overall length over the couplers). Can anyone give my the conversion for HO scale against an inch /foot ruler. I need the decimal equivilent of an HO scale foot / inch, as an example say 0.250 is equal to 1.75 ft. in HO scale. I hope I am explaning this right. Mark _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar ? FREE! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:57:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. If you have a metric ruler available, the scale is 3.5mm= 1 foot. Bill --part1_119.304d0284.2d8a3fe9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" If you have a metric ruler availabl= e, the scale is 3.5mm=3D 1 foot.  Bill --part1_119.304d0284.2d8a3fe9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:16:27 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, In most parts of the world HO scale is 1:87.1, while 1/8 inch equals one foot is 1:96 (multiply 8 by 12 and you get 96), so anything constructed to 1/8"=1' is 10.2 percent undersized for HO scale! Hope you're not drawing up HO car and building plans using 1/8" scale. I model in N, so .075" equals one foot. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Cc: "Mark Taylor" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. > Mark, > > In real time to HO scale 1/8" or .0125 equals 1 HO foot. > This would be fine except depdning if you print out a car > builders dimension plan the plan is not to scale. This can > be solved by buyin a scale rule, and equating a ratio to > scale the drawing to be HO scale or full size if you so > choose. I do this regularly at work as well as drawing up > car sides in HO. > > -John > > Designer, Modeler, Consultant > Mount Vernon Shops > Baltimore, MD > > Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. > > > "Mark Taylor" wrote: > List; I am building 2 BCW M70b's and I am wanting to > double check the instruction measurements against car > builder plan dimensions ( I want to get the right > dimension for truck centers as well as the overall length > over the couplers). Can anyone give my the conversion for > HO scale against an inch /foot ruler. I need the decimal > equivilent of an HO scale foot / inch, as an example say > 0.250 is equal to 1.75 ft. in HO scale. I hope I am > explaning this right. Mark > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar ? > FREE! > http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:39:47 +0000 From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [eastcoastrailfans] GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:34:12 -0500 Thought this might be of interest to the=20 group. BillP AKA Locobil ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DOCTOR REYNOLDS=20 To: = eastcoastrailfans@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:38 PM Subject: [eastcoastrailfans] GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard From: pcc7407@w...=20 Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:58 am Subject: Re: GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard In respone to a mention of a GG1 in "Mt. Winans" yard on BaltimoreRailfans@y...: The GG1 is in Mt. Clare "A" Yard (Mt. Winans is the yard along the main tracks between Hollins Ferry Rd. and Gable Avenue), and is=20 a "crime in progress". This is number 4876 and is the engine that=20 crashed into and thru Union Station in Washington in 1953. It is now=20 derelict, rusting badly, and is used as a drug and vagrant hangout. >From what I understood many years ago, the original plan for this engine was for the B&O Museum to cosmetically restore it to its' 1953 appearance whereupon Amtrak was going to place it on number 16 track (the one it was on when it crashed thru) in Washington's Union=20 Station as a tribute to the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 hauled=20 passenger service. Severe Amtrak budget cutbacks brought about by Congress and changes=20 in plans for rebuilding Union Station scuttled this project and the=20 engine began its long downhill decline to the present state it is in. It has been sitting out in the open, unprotected in any way, for at least the last 20 years. For a while it was at least placed under the I-95 bridge, but CSX objected to the location of it, and all the=20 old equipment with it, and pushed it all to the far west end of A=20 Yard. So far as I know, everything on that track is owned by the B&O=20 Museum. It is a crime that this is happening, and would be an even=20 greater crime if it is allowed to either continue or if the engine=20 is finally scrapped. The B&O Museum once had its own GG1, #4890, but in one of the Museum's mood swings it was decided to dispose of anything that was=20 not C&O-B&O-WM related. Pity, because the GG1 one certainly a huge=20 part of Baltimore's railroad history, even if it did run on the=20 competition. The B&O Museum disposed of and scrapped several PRR MP54 MU cars as well, throwing away still more of Baltimore's railroad history. What a shame that people are so provincial that they feel just because it wasn't B&O that it wasn't worth saving. It was, and is Baltimore history, and should be saved at Baltimore's B&O Museum. (This posting is also being posted on the DelMarVaTraction and CSXPhillySub yahoogroups since there may be interested members there=20 who do not subscribe to BaltimoreRailfans.)=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eastcoastrailfans/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: = eastcoastrailfans-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40C67.96D14B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thought this might be of interest to the
group. BillP AKA Locobil
----- Original = Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:38 PM
Subject: [eastcoastrailfans] GG1 In Mt. Clare = Yard

From:  pcc7407@w...
Date:  Wed Mar 10, = 2004 =20 9:58 am
Subject:  Re: GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard

In respone to = a=20 mention of a GG1 in "Mt. Winans" yard on
BaltimoreRailfans@y...:

Th= e GG1 is=20 in Mt. Clare "A" Yard (Mt. Winans is the yard along the
main tracks = between=20 Hollins Ferry Rd. and Gable Avenue), and is
a "crime in progress". = This is=20 number 4876 and is the engine that
crashed into and thru Union = Station in=20 Washington in 1953. It is now
derelict, rusting badly, and is used = as a drug=20 and vagrant hangout.
From what I understood many years ago, the = original plan=20 for this
engine was for the B&O Museum to cosmetically restore it = to its'=20 1953
appearance whereupon Amtrak was going to place it on number 16=20 track
(the one it was on when it crashed thru) in Washington's Union=20
Station as a tribute to the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 hauled =
passenger=20 service.

Severe Amtrak budget cutbacks brought about by Congress = and=20 changes
in plans for rebuilding Union Station scuttled this project = and the=20
engine began its long downhill decline to the present state it is = in.
It=20 has been sitting out in the open, unprotected in any way, for
at = least the=20 last 20 years. For a while it was at least placed under
the I-95 = bridge, but=20 CSX objected to the location of it, and all the
old equipment with = it, and=20 pushed it all to the far west end of A
Yard. So far as I know, = everything on=20 that track is owned by the B&O
Museum. It is a crime that this = is=20 happening, and would be an even
greater crime if it is allowed to = either=20 continue or if the engine
is finally scrapped.

The B&O = Museum=20 once had its own GG1, #4890, but in one of the
Museum's mood swings = it was=20 decided to dispose of anything that was
not C&O-B&O-WM = related.=20 Pity, because the GG1 one certainly a huge
part of Baltimore's = railroad=20 history, even if it did run on the
competition.

The B&O = Museum=20 disposed of and scrapped several PRR MP54 MU cars as
well, throwing = away=20 still more of Baltimore's railroad history.
What a shame that people = are so=20 provincial that they feel just
because it wasn't B&O that it = wasn't worth=20 saving. It was, and is
Baltimore history, and should be saved at = Baltimore's=20 B&O Museum.

(This posting is also being posted on the=20 DelMarVaTraction and
CSXPhillySub yahoogroups since there may be = interested=20 members there
who
do not subscribe to BaltimoreRailfans.)=20



Yahoo! Groups Links
  • To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.y= ahoo.com/group/eastcoastrailfans/
     =20
  • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    eastcoastrailfans-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
     =20
  • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40C67.96D14B40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet - Valley Forge Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:35:27 -0600 Dave asked: "What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've never been = to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first one." A few other points to add to Greg's comments: Come with an open mind. If you go in with an attitude of "rivet = counters are ruining our hobby" and "I can never do anything like that," = you're completely missing the point and would be better off saving your = money by not coming. These meets are all about sharing information to = help you improve your modeling - don't get scared off by the amount of = information and the quality of the models.=20 A common complaint about these meets is "they didn't have anything on = <>" Clinic programs are directly dependent = on the willingness of volunteers to give them, so you might not find = exactly what you're looking for; however, if you're interested in a = specific era or facet of the hobby, BRING MODELS for the display room. = They'll help you to find others with like interests, which brings me = to... Talk to other people in the display room, even if they don't have the = same interests as you do. Generally, there aren't any contests, so it's = not like you're trying to hide something from the guy next to you to get = an edge in contest judging. As Greg said, "CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR." = While it's true that some meets are held to satisfy the ego of a = prominent modeler with a three-letter last name (which, by the way, = isn't "Hom"), this fortunately isn't the case for most Prototype = Modelers Meets. Remember, it's all about exchanging information. =20 Greg Martin asked: "Hey, Ben you going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR items?" Both Al Buchan and I will be there, and we'll put those cameras to work. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C40C46.3C78A4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave asked:
"What exactly=20 goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've never been to one = before. The=20 Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first one."
 
A few other points to add to = Greg's=20 comments:
Come with an open = mind.  If you=20 go in with an attitude of "rivet counters are ruining our hobby" and "I = can=20 never do anything like that," you're completely missing the point and = would be=20 better off saving your money by not coming.  These meets are all = about=20 sharing information to help you improve your modeling - don't = get=20 scared off by the amount of information and the quality of the models.=20
 
A common complaint about these = meets is=20 "they didn't have anything on <<fill in topic of=20 interest>>"  Clinic programs are directly dependent = on the=20 willingness of volunteers to give them, so you might not find exactly = what=20 you're looking for; however, if you're interested in a specific era = or=20 facet of the hobby, BRING MODELS for the display room.  = They'll help=20 you to find others with like interests, which brings me = to...
 
Talk to other people in the = display room,=20 even if they don't have the same interests as you=20 do.  Generally, there aren't any contests, so it's not like = you're=20 trying to hide something from the guy next to you to get an edge in = contest=20 judging.  As Greg said, "CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR."  = While it's=20 true that some meets are held to satisfy the ego of a prominent modeler = with a=20 three-letter last name (which, by the way, isn't "Hom"), this = fortunately isn't=20 the case for most Prototype Modelers Meets.   Remember, it's = all about=20 exchanging information.  
 
 
Greg Martin asked:
"Hey, Ben you=20 going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR = items?"
 
Both Al Buchan=20 and I will be there, and we'll put those cameras to = work.
 
 
Ben=20 Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C40C46.3C78A4C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:50:23 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gregg, When it comes to doing a car side, I usually plot a side out at full size architectural "D" size sheet 36"x24" then measure the car using a scale rule. Say the dimension is marked 10'-0" but it measures 9'-0". Considering the fact that the dimension measures 9'-0" at 100% I use the ratio 9'-0"/100%=10'-0"/?% Then I scale it using the plot settings and replot it and check it to make sure its right. Usually it is. Ahh, the beauty of having plotters. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: John, Hope you're not drawing up HO car and building plans using 1/8" scale. I model in N, so .075" equals one foot. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:49:23 -0500 On this date, the first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at Warsaw was made. = Engine No. 6501 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at = 3:28 pm. Highball!! Ted ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

On = this date, the=20 first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at=20 Warsaw was made. Engine No. = 6501=20 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at 3:28 pm.

 

Highball!!

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:49:23 -0500 On this date, the first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at Warsaw was made. = Engine No. 6501 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at = 3:28 pm. Highball!! Ted ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

On = this date, the=20 first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at=20 Warsaw was made. Engine No. = 6501=20 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at 3:28 pm.

 

Highball!!

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI Update, Deadlines & Atlas Deadline From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement... This info came via FAX yesterday and is not yet posted to BLI's web site. It will be soon. BLI has revised their shipping schedule. (Surprise!) Note that "guaranteed reservation date" indicates the deadline for orders that they guarantee will be filled. Ordering after that date doesn't mean your order won't be filled. It just means it is no longer guaranteed. As of the "guaranteed reservation date" they set production quantites on a per road number basis, based on the quantity of dealer reservations plus a buffer. That said... E7's -- Now slated for late April and into May. M1 rerun -- Moved to May. H2a Hoppers -- Moved to May. J1 -- Still June, but guaranteed reservations close on March 24th!!! K7a Stock Cars -- July. Guaranteed reservation date "was" March 5th!!! NW2 and SW7's -- Bumped to July. ------------- On a similar note, the Atlas HO scale F-M H 24-66 TrainMaster with optional sound, with an ETA of September, has a guaranteed reservation date of March 24th. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] NF-6 Train Symbol Question Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:11:23 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:35:59 -0600 Subject: [PRR] NF-6 From: Frederick Ripley Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:35:59 -0600 Subject: [PRR] NF-6 From: Frederick Ripley From: "Les Zody" Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:31:43 -0800 Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm l= ooking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue that = was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Caboos= e Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be g= reat. Ty for the help Les z ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,
&nb= sp; I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm= looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue tha= t was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Cabo= ose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be= great.
         =     Ty for the help
    &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ; Les z
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Les Zody" Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:31:43 -0800 Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm l= ooking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue that = was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Caboos= e Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be g= reat. Ty for the help Les z ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,
&nb= sp; I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm= looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue tha= t was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Cabo= ose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be= great.
         =     Ty for the help
    &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ; Les z
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:18:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:24:28 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NF-6 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/18/2004 10:35:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, fjr@mchsi.com writes: > > > Ted writes, about NF-6: > > > 1. What was the eastern terminus of this train? > > 2. How was it different from FW-8, a conventional live stock train? > > 3. What did Non-Feed mean? > > From previous posts (Bill Volkmer I think), I had the eastern terminus of > this train as Waverly, NJ. I am assuming that the "Feed-Water" monicker of > FW-8 meant that this train stopped to feed the livestock at some point (not > sure where). "Non-Feed" meant the idea was to get the train over the road > in less than 36 hours, which was the federal time limit for which livestock > could be carried without being fed/watered. > > Interesting it didn't run after April- it stays in ETT's for the following > years, and by 1967 in the Western Region ETT is allowed to operate at 60 > mph, like other hotshots. I wonder if it's operation was somewhat seasonal? > > Fred > > NF-6 picked up cars in Fort Wayne and ran through to Harrisburg where it dropped cars. Additional cars were dropped at Lancaster, Philadelphia, Waverly, Meadows and terminated at Harsimus Cove. Total time alloted was 29 hours with a maximum of 85 cars in the train. See http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/nf6_1960.html FW-8 unloaded livestock at Herr's Island in Pittsburgh for rest, feed and water. It added cars at Ft. Wayne. Dropped cars at Crestline, Massillon, Canton, Conway (non-livestock), Pittsburgh Stock yards, Altoona, Enola, Philadelphia, Waverly and terminated at Meadows. In addition to livestock this train carried perishables and TOFC. See http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/fw8_1960.html Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Show--La Crosse WI--This weekend Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:43:26 -0600 Just a reminder to folks in this part of the world. Layouts, vendors and model railroaders, how much better can it get?? 10-6 Saturday and 10-4 Sunday. Downtown at the LaCrosse Center (2nd and Pearl). Pete Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40CFF.C2752F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Just a reminder to folks in = this part of the world. Layouts, vendors and model railroaders, how much better can it get??  10-6 = Saturday and 10-4 Sunday. Downtown at the = LaCrosse Center<= /st1:PlaceType> (2nd and = Pearl).

 

Pete Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40CFF.C2752F30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:07:03 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" I've seen demonstrations of this new glue. The one very real advantage = over conventional ACC is its shear strength. ACC has excellent tensile = strength, but only so-so shear strength. The glue is also impact = resistant. I threw two metal screws which were glued together on a = concrete floor, and I could not break the bond. -----Original Message----- From: STEPHEN HOXIE [mailto:stevehprr@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:55 AM To: prrtalk Subject: Re: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy. See http://www.mrhobby.com/ for more. Pricey but great stuff! =20 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Les Zody =20 To: prrtalk =20 Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm = looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue = that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from = Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help = would be great. Ty for the help Les z ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40D35.581ED72B Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I've seen = demonstrations=20 of this new glue.  The one very real advantage over conventional = ACC is its=20 shear strength.  ACC has excellent tensile strength, but only so-so = shear=20 strength.  The glue is also impact resistant.  I threw two = metal=20 screws which were glued together on a concrete floor, and I could not = break the=20 bond.
-----Original Message-----
From: STEPHEN HOXIE = [mailto:stevehprr@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, = 2004=20 10:55 AM
To: prrtalk
Subject: Re: [PRR] cement = (resin=20 glue)

Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy.  = See
http://www.mrhobby.com/  for = more.  Pricey but great = stuff!
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Les = Zody=20
To: prrtalk
Sent: Thursday, March 18, = 2004 10:31=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] cement (resin=20 glue)

Hi All,
  I have searched the archives and am not = coming up=20 with the thread I'm looking for. Some time back there was a = discussion of a=20 type of glue that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I = think=20 someone from Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the = product. Any=20 help would be great.
=
           &n= bsp;=20 Ty for the help
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     =20 Les z
------_=_NextPart_001_01C40D35.581ED72B-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:49:25 -0500 Yes there were lots of pipelines, not sure that they piped the crude = directly to the refinery. I can't say much for sure about the 50's, but = some of the business in the area during the 60's to 80's I can think of = quickly, would be.... Continental Can, J&L Steel, Pennzoil of course = plus other companies between Oil City and Rouseville, just north of Oil = City, one that pressure treated wood products, there was also Oil City = Glass, not sure if they used the PRR. , Manion barrel, scrap dealers, = Oilwell supply , a USS company (I think) in Siverly.. on the Allegheny = just upstream of Oil City, near the wye bridge, north side of the river, = line there used to extend to Warren. Also Worthington near Petroleum = Street Bridge on the banks of the river, also North side. =20 There are other products that came out of the Pennzip facility on rail, = namely wax, lots of National wax tank cars loaded there. =20 Just a note the company I work for has a large plant in Franklin, we = have photos somewhere of our equipment loaded on NYC flatcars, which ran = down Buffalo street. =20 I can remember the other end of the tunnel before the intersection of = Holiday Run Road and Rt 8 was changed. There was a bridge over the NYC = at the tunnel entrance, then the rail line crossed Rt 8 at an angle, my = Dad used to visit a feed store near that intersection. =20 I think the NYC had a turntable in Oil City in the area of the bridge = over Oil Creek, known as White Bridge, I think there may still be rail = near that area, behind the auto parts store. At least I recall it being = there fairly recently. A gentlemen that owned a hobby shop in Oil = City for years was a friend of mine, he tells me there were three = turntables in Oil City at one time, the PRR on the south side near the = Wye bridge, now where the power in town is parked, the Erie somewhere on = the North side near the steel plant, the NYC table I mentioned. =20 best regards, David Campbell Norton, VA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CENTGA@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:56 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City So Oil City had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. = During my trip there I didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure = it was larger in it's day. My question is didn't pipelines carry much of = the oil from an early time? What and how much business would the = railroads have had there in say the 50's? Todd Horton ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C40D3B.430D4070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes there were lots of = pipelines, not=20 sure that they piped the crude directly to the refinery.  I = can't say=20 much for sure about the 50's, but some of the business in the = area=20 during the 60's to 80's I can think of quickly, would be.... =20 Continental Can, J&L Steel, Pennzoil of course plus other companies = between=20 Oil City and Rouseville, just north of Oil City, one that pressure = treated wood=20 products, there was also Oil City Glass, not sure if = they used the=20 PRR. , Manion barrel, scrap dealers, Oilwell supply , a USS company = (I=20 think) in Siverly..  on the Allegheny just upstream of Oil = City, near=20 the wye bridge, north side of the river, line there used to extend to = Warren.=20  Also Worthington near Petroleum Street Bridge on the banks of the = river,=20 also North side. 
 
There are other products that came = out of the=20 Pennzip facility on rail, namely wax, lots of National wax tank cars = loaded=20 there.   
 
Just a note the company I = work for has a large plant in Franklin, we have photos somewhere of = our=20 equipment loaded on NYC flatcars, which ran down Buffalo street.=20  
 
I can remember the = other end of=20 the tunnel before the intersection of Holiday Run Road and Rt 8 was=20 changed.  There was a bridge over the NYC at the tunnel = entrance,=20 then the rail line crossed Rt 8 at an angle, my Dad used to = visit a=20 feed store near that intersection.  
 
I think the NYC had a = turntable in=20 Oil City in the area of the bridge over Oil Creek, known as White = Bridge, I=20 think there  may still be rail near that area, behind the auto = parts=20 store.  At least I recall it being there fairly=20 recently.    A gentlemen that owned a hobby shop in Oil = City for=20 years was a friend of mine,  he tells me there were three = turntables in Oil=20 City at one time, the PRR on the south side near the Wye bridge, = now where=20 the power in town is parked, the Erie somewhere on the North=20 side near the steel plant, the NYC table I mentioned.  =
 
best = regards,
 
David = Campbell
Norton, = VA
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CENTGA@aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 = 9:56=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: That tunnel = at Oil=20 City

So Oil City=20 had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. During my trip = there I=20 didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure it was larger in it's = day. My=20 question is didn't pipelines carry much of the oil from an early time? = What=20 and how much business would the railroads have had there in say the = 50's? Todd=20 Horton ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C40D3B.430D4070-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:12:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City In a message dated 3/18/04 11:02:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, southern@bellatlantic.net writes: > There are other products that came out of the Pennzip facility on rail, > namely wax, lots of National wax tank cars loaded there. > I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one of these cars. Know of any on line? Todd --part1_1d2.1c74abb1.2d8bcd25_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/18/04 11:02:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, southern@bellatlantic= .net writes:


There are other products that c= ame out of the Pennzip facility on rail, namely wax, lots of National wax ta= nk cars loaded there.  


I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one of these cars. Know of any on li= ne? Todd --part1_1d2.1c74abb1.2d8bcd25_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] A somber entry at Warsaw, August 17, 1965 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:07:15 -0500 The following was written at the bottom of the CT 355-A tower sheet for = August 17, 1965: "TT-2 - Hit woman standing on track 1-block west of Union St. at 1:38 = am. Engineer said appeared as though she committed suicide. Coroner = released train 2:30 am. Police wanted Red East and West account parts of = her body scattered on No. 1 & 2. Clear East & West 2:48 am by Chief of = Police. Woman's name (with held) age 46." While we consider trains as a hobby, it is events like this that shake = this hobby into reality. Not only did railroading have a dangerous = working environment but it had more than its share of personal = tragedies. Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40D46.23127320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The following was written at the bottom of the CT 355-A tower sheet = for=20 August 17, 1965:
 

"TT-2  - Hit woman standing on track = 1-block=20 west of Union St. at = 1:38 am. Engineer said = appeared as=20 though she committed suicide. Coroner released train 2:30 am. Police = wanted Red=20 East and West account parts of her body scattered on No. 1 & 2. = Clear East=20 & West 2:48 am by Chief of Police. Woman=92s name (with held) age = 46."

 

 

While we consider = trains as a=20 hobby, it is events like this that shake this hobby into reality. = Not=20 only did railroading have a dangerous working = environment=20 but it had more than its share of personal tragedies.

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40D46.23127320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:11:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Pullman Book From: Jamie Bothwell Message-Id: <826378C4-799E-11D8-B970-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [141.158.51.210] at Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:09:53 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I spotted a copy of "The Pullman Library Vol. 4" on eBay this morning. It was at $65 when I was there. I know this title has come up on this list before. I offer this as a public service announcement. I have no connection to the seller. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:09:53 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:09:53 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:52:16 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Industries near Oil City Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:54:26 -0500 In the late ''40's early '50's there were still lots of refineries = shipping petroleum products by rail in the area. There were lots of = other industries in the area also. I lived in Franklin until 1950. I = remember Pennzoil and Wolfs Head in Oil City. Was Quaker State also = located there? Franklin, just up the Allegheny River, was served by = Erie and NYC branches. The PRR was across the river, not sure it served = many (any?) industries in Franklin. =20 On the NYC in town was a large freight station and Brown's Boiler Works. = The tracks ran down the middle of Buffalo St. from the small yard below = 11th St. to around First St. to Joy Manufacturing which made coal mining = equipment - large automatic miners, etc. They are still in business, = but not sure whether they still have a factory in Franklin. Near the = freight station was a brick passenger station, converted to a restaurant = last time I was in Franklin (around 15 years ago). =20 Across town the Erie branch served the Chicago Pneumatic Tool Company, a = large factory many blocks long which manufactured air compressors and = other large pneumatic equipment. Alas, railroads are all gone now. As a lad growing up in the '40's, = however, I spend many a summer day "down by the station & tracks." Must = be where I went a-stray! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C40DA0.8C160BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
In the late ''40's early '50's there were still = lots of=20 refineries shipping petroleum products by rail in the area.  There = were=20 lots of other industries in the area also.  I lived in Franklin = until=20 1950.  I remember Pennzoil and Wolfs Head in Oil City.  Was = Quaker=20 State also located there?  Franklin, just up the Allegheny River, = was=20 served by Erie and NYC branches.  The PRR was across the river, not = sure it=20 served many (any?) industries in Franklin. 
 
On the NYC in town was a large freight station = and Brown's=20 Boiler Works.  The tracks ran down the middle of Buffalo St. from = the small=20 yard below 11th St. to around First St. to Joy Manufacturing which made = coal=20 mining equipment - large automatic miners, etc.  They are still in=20 business, but not sure whether they still have a factory in = Franklin.  Near=20 the freight station was a brick passenger station, converted to a = restaurant=20 last time I was in Franklin (around 15 years ago). 
 
Across town the Erie branch served the Chicago = Pneumatic=20 Tool Company, a large factory many blocks long which manufactured air=20 compressors and other large pneumatic equipment.
 
Alas, railroads are all gone now.  As a lad = growing=20 up in the '40's, however, I spend many a summer day "down by the station = &=20 tracks."  Must be where I went a-stray!
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
 
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C40DA0.8C160BC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:55:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Kennedy Airport to Penn Station From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:55:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Kennedy Airport to Penn Station Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:04:08 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:07:14 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:07:14 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:02:35 -0500 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have about 15 Thomas tank cars. All have solid frames. Very rare to see a Thomas tank car with any bad metal. Garry Spear robert netzlof wrote: > --- b.hom@att.net wrote: > >>Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >>Thomas used to sell a six compartment car in HO years ago. I still >>have it but the frame was Zamac and broke. >> >>More recently, AHM offered a six-dome wine tank car in HO. >>Unfortunately, the model is about 2x the capacity of the prototype; >>however, it's readily availble at swap meets if you can live with >>the size problem. You'll probably need to strip and repaint as AHM >>offered many more bogus schemes (including DuPont and Penn Salt!) >>than wine company schemes. > > > As I recall, one wine scheme, silver with red "ROMA WINE" outlined in > black. > > Better yet, the shell can be easily mounted on the underframe and > bottom sheet of an Athearn 40' tank car, giving much better running > gear and draft gear. > > >>The Thomas model is much closer to scale size, though it's long out >>of production and a bit tough to find. > > > They do show up now and again on eBay. I've always been a bit fearful > of them as they date from the era when "zinc disease" was rather > common. They generally don't sell cheap either. > > The AHM cars also appear there from time to time, at a variey of > prices. It seems to me the wine scheme tends to be a bit less costly > than the completely bogus oil, salt, latex, and sulphur schemes. > > Nice to hear that such odd beasts did operate now and again in the East. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Wine cars - modern shipments Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:09:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2004 08:09:36.0227 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF2CC330:01C40E52] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Wine cars - modern shipments Modern era shipment of wine still happened in the Baltimore area as of a few years ago and may still be happening at the Seagram's facility in Halethorpe. (Formerly Calvert Whiskey) The tank cars are nondescript for a very good reason. No real interesting markings at all. Apparently the threat of unauthorized imbibing is still present with us. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:03:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Layouts I will be in Reading and Harrisburg, Pa. this week. Are there any layouts in these areas that are open to visitors during their work or ops sessions? Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1079784189 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I will be in Reading and Harrisburg, Pa. this week.  Are there any= layouts in these areas that are open to visitors during their work or ops s= essions?
 
Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1079784189-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:14:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Wine Cars That isn't imbibing on the job, it is insuring the product does not become tainted in transport. ;^) When I worked on the Reading, it wasn't too uncommon to find cars coming out of the Hershey's plant at Hershey, Pa. had been broken into with a box or two of goodies missing. On one occasion the crew was caught red handed but there was no action taken as the union could not be contacted within the required four hours for a complaint to be filed. It was later learned that the union was tipped off to the misconduct then became scarce so they could not be contacted. The railroad had to pay for the lost candy. Ain't life grand!? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1079784896 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
  That isn't imbibing on the job, it is insuring the product does=20= not become tainted in transport.  ;^) 
 
   When I worked on the Reading, it wasn't too uncommon to fi= nd cars coming out of the Hershey's plant at Hershey, Pa. had been broken in= to with a box or two of goodies missing.  On one occasion the crew was=20= caught red handed but there was no action taken as the union could not be co= ntacted within the required four hours for a complaint to be filed= .  It was later learned that the union was tipped off to the misconduct= then became scarce so they could not be contacted.  The railroad had t= o pay for the lost candy.  Ain't life grand!?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1079784896-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:09:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Bell on B1 electric MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello list members, Is the bell on a B1 electric a "hand pulled" or a mechanical bell? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:38:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] MTH Milk Train From: Dominic Mazoch X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:38:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] MTH Milk Train From: Dominic Mazoch From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:09:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Bell on B1 electric Hello list members, Is the bell on a B1 electric a "hand pulled" or a mechanical bell? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:49:15 -0600 Subject: [PRR] RE: Wilen Brothers in N. Philadelphia From: John Sheets From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Late August Round up at Warsaw..... Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:46:33 +0000 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: [PRR] test Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:21:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.199.98.250] at Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:21:32 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: test ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's in HO Scale Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:33:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, it's early, but Lee English notified me this morning that the HO scale N8's will start shipping to dealers today. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Form 76, 1884 Edition, Posted From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <01471CC0-7CD6-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to James Foley, I just posted to the Documents section of Keystone Crossings the 1884 edition of the Form 76, which is the equivalent of the CT1000. The original that was scanned was in remarkably good condition. You can find the file at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ The file is 7.5 MB in size, so if you early modelers all jump at once your download will crawl! Try again later if you cannot get it now in a reasonable time. I've got a lot of exciting PDF's coming over the next two weeks. A bunch of track charts and a passenger consist book from 1964. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Form 76, 1884 Edition, Posted From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <01471CC0-7CD6-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to James Foley, I just posted to the Documents section of Keystone Crossings the 1884 edition of the Form 76, which is the equivalent of the CT1000. The original that was scanned was in remarkably good condition. You can find the file at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ The file is 7.5 MB in size, so if you early modelers all jump at once your download will crawl! Try again later if you cannot get it now in a reasonable time. I've got a lot of exciting PDF's coming over the next two weeks. A bunch of track charts and a passenger consist book from 1964. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] E-7 Antenna Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:14:22 -0500 To the list, perhaps another rerun of months past, however I would like to know if the PRR E-7's always had train phone antenna on all of the "A" Units? Thanks in advance. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C410BF.9D1F5210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

To the list, perhaps = another rerun of months past, however I would like to know if the PRR E-7’s always = had train phone antenna on all of the “A” Units?  Thanks in = advance.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C410BF.9D1F5210-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <19674D9A-7CEA-11D8-AC6A-000393C92AF2@arclyte.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:49:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers, I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] ATT: Steve Sejda Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:52:03 -0500 Pictures will be mailed on 3-25-04 Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C410CD.429AD540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Pictures will be mailed on 3-25-04
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C410CD.429AD540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:22:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Alex, Society had different attitudes then. First, young unmarried men and women were not found in mixed company unless they had been introduced by a family member, so a woman or girl traveling alone would have felt very embarrassed in a gneral waiting room with a bunch of strange men. In addition, many men used chewing tobacco and there were spitoons in the men;'s waiting room. Women found this as ugly a habit back then as they do now. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms > Listers, > I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in > some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). > As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not > been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female > rooms. > Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? > -alex > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Track Chart Additions From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <0BBFD900-7CF8-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Eight more track charts have been added to the Maps section of Keystone Crossings. There are from the Northern Division, Pittsburgh Division, Conemaugh Division, and Pittsburgh Region. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ Thanks to Randy Williamson for the loan of the originals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Track Chart Additions From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <0BBFD900-7CF8-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Eight more track charts have been added to the Maps section of Keystone Crossings. There are from the Northern Division, Pittsburgh Division, Conemaugh Division, and Pittsburgh Region. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ Thanks to Randy Williamson for the loan of the originals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:48:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pot Yard ETT From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another neat one from James Foley... in the Docs section of Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html "Eastern Region, Southern Division, Maryland Division, Washington Yard, Timetable #7", June 24, 1945. For the government of employes of the Baltimore and Ohio RR, the Chesapeake and Ohio RR, the Pennsylvania RR, the Richmond Fredericksburg and Potomac RR, and the Southern Railway for Operating Trains Between Anacostia and South End. Also includes "Special Instructions for the Government of Employes of Potomac Yard" for the same railroads. For those of you modeling the south end of the system, this file's for you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:14:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <4F100C8B-7CFE-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caboose to get new home E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards Tuesday, March 23, 2004 BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN For The Patriot-News West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. That represents a detour from a proposal that would have moved the caboose to the Lykens Railroad Station. After months of considerations by officials, the vintage Pennsylvania Railroad car has seen a lot of mileage -- and it hasn't left the yard of the West Hanover Twp. municipal building. West Hanover Twp. supervisors voted unanimously last week to donate the caboose in response to a proposal submitted by East Pennsboro Twp. Manager Robert Gill. East Pennsboro commissioners agreed to make the offer March 3. East Pennsboro officials plan to place the 1942 railroad car in Adams-Ricci Community Park at Margo Road and East Penn Drive. "When you really boil it down, this is the kind of project we were hoping to get. This is the perfect ending for this long saga," said West Hanover Supervisor Robert Ziltz. West Hanover Twp. has owned the caboose for more than a decade, but has sought to move it for months. Although West Hanover officials had hoped to rent out the caboose for festive events such as children's birthday parties, those plans never really took off, officials said. East Pennsboro recently acquired an additional 42 acres for the Adams-Ricci Community Park, expanding it to a spacious 120-plus acres, including baseball and soccer fields, and tennis, volleyball and basketball courts. The Historical Society of East Pennsboro Twp., in conjunction with township officials, is planning a 100th anniversary celebration of the Enola Railroad Yards in 2005. The facility opened in 1905 and utilized up to 67 tracks on 375 acres at its peak, remaining the township's largest employer until the 1950s. "The caboose would be a great attraction to our festivities. We are a very proud community, and the railroad is a symbol of our heritage these last 100 years," said Herb Kruger, president of the historical society. In January, Edward Carney, chairman of the Dauphin County Planning Commission, asked West Hanover supervisors to grant rights to the caboose to Lykens Railroad Station. The historic station is being renovated into a rail museum with a nearby trail, a project overseen by the Dauphin County Parks and Recreation department. Although West Hanover officials said they were enthusiastic about Carney's proposal, it never officially was endorsed by Dauphin County Commissioners -- and therefore lacked county funding -- by the township's March 12 bid deadline. West Hanover Twp. Manager Michael Rimer said he contacted the county several times over the winter regarding the caboose. "The county was not interested in acquiring a caboose," he said. The township also received an offer March 8 from the Lykens Chamber of Commerce to "relocate the caboose in a very timely manner" to the Lykens Train Station. County commissioners notified West Hanover in a March 12 fax that they were endorsing "Lykens in its quest to obtain [the] caboose." West Hanover supervisors said their first choice had been to donate the caboose to a municipality. East Pennsboro plans to move the caboose to its new site by July. West Hanover bought the car in 1993 for $13,910. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:14:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <4F100C8B-7CFE-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caboose to get new home E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards Tuesday, March 23, 2004 BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN For The Patriot-News West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. That represents a detour from a proposal that would have moved the caboose to the Lykens Railroad Station. After months of considerations by officials, the vintage Pennsylvania Railroad car has seen a lot of mileage -- and it hasn't left the yard of the West Hanover Twp. municipal building. West Hanover Twp. supervisors voted unanimously last week to donate the caboose in response to a proposal submitted by East Pennsboro Twp. Manager Robert Gill. East Pennsboro commissioners agreed to make the offer March 3. East Pennsboro officials plan to place the 1942 railroad car in Adams-Ricci Community Park at Margo Road and East Penn Drive. "When you really boil it down, this is the kind of project we were hoping to get. This is the perfect ending for this long saga," said West Hanover Supervisor Robert Ziltz. West Hanover Twp. has owned the caboose for more than a decade, but has sought to move it for months. Although West Hanover officials had hoped to rent out the caboose for festive events such as children's birthday parties, those plans never really took off, officials said. East Pennsboro recently acquired an additional 42 acres for the Adams-Ricci Community Park, expanding it to a spacious 120-plus acres, including baseball and soccer fields, and tennis, volleyball and basketball courts. The Historical Society of East Pennsboro Twp., in conjunction with township officials, is planning a 100th anniversary celebration of the Enola Railroad Yards in 2005. The facility opened in 1905 and utilized up to 67 tracks on 375 acres at its peak, remaining the township's largest employer until the 1950s. "The caboose would be a great attraction to our festivities. We are a very proud community, and the railroad is a symbol of our heritage these last 100 years," said Herb Kruger, president of the historical society. In January, Edward Carney, chairman of the Dauphin County Planning Commission, asked West Hanover supervisors to grant rights to the caboose to Lykens Railroad Station. The historic station is being renovated into a rail museum with a nearby trail, a project overseen by the Dauphin County Parks and Recreation department. Although West Hanover officials said they were enthusiastic about Carney's proposal, it never officially was endorsed by Dauphin County Commissioners -- and therefore lacked county funding -- by the township's March 12 bid deadline. West Hanover Twp. Manager Michael Rimer said he contacted the county several times over the winter regarding the caboose. "The county was not interested in acquiring a caboose," he said. The township also received an offer March 8 from the Lykens Chamber of Commerce to "relocate the caboose in a very timely manner" to the Lykens Train Station. County commissioners notified West Hanover in a March 12 fax that they were endorsing "Lykens in its quest to obtain [the] caboose." West Hanover supervisors said their first choice had been to donate the caboose to a municipality. East Pennsboro plans to move the caboose to its new site by July. West Hanover bought the car in 1993 for $13,910. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:02:04 -0500 From: Ike Subject: Re: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.41 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Crap! I was hoping this would take off in Lykens and give me something local to get involved in... I hope they don't drop the ball on the station museum as well.. As an aside- the station in Elizabethville on the Lykens branch is still in use as well.. Just painted a hideous color. Jerry Britton wrote: > Caboose to get new home > E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards > > Tuesday, March 23, 2004 > > BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN > For The Patriot-News > > West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola > Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. > -- Yours, Troy Troy M. Snyder 9342 RT 209 Williamstown,PA 17098 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:25:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms From: "Frederic H. Abendschein" > From: "Alex Charyna" > Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:57:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes: > As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not > been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female > rooms. > Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? > Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in bad language. This practice did not end in the 1880s. In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want to be in such a car. Lee Rainey --part1_31.459974cd.2d9236e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:= 31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes:


As the stations were built in t= he mid to late 1800s, I would have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate waiting rooms?


Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of that e= ra. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in bad lan= guage.

This practice did not end in the 1880s.

In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home from=20= college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always directed me= to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excl= uding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking=20= with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the right (remember,= this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of smoke, cool and=20= pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want to be in suc= h a car.

Lee Rainey --part1_31.459974cd.2d9236e8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:05:04 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Women were considered delicate creatures and this protected the more sheltered of them from the wide range of male humanity during their travels and, as pointed out, cigars, chewing tobacco, etc. Another example: in the old hotel at Pullman, Illinois, the women had a private parlor which they could access by using the back stairs from their room so they didn't even have to traverse the lobby. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:49 AM Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms > Listers, > I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in > some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). > As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not > been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female > rooms. > Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? > -alex > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:48:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N Scale PRR "Texas Eagle" Cars Introduced From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <83450E64-7D91-11D8-9D27-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Marshall Shops, known for their SP "Daylight" and MP "Texas Eagle" passenger car sides, has returned to the market after a year of absence. And with their return they are releasing ACF Plan 9008 10-6 sleepers....those used by the PRR in interchange service on the "Penn Texas". These are laser cut Lexan sides, with paint masks and decals, designed to fit American Limited core kits. As of 1954, the following four "spots" on the Pennsy's "Penn Texas" were filled as follows: New York to El Paso (14 roomettes, 4 double bedrooms) "Eagle City" (T&P), "Eagle Beach" (T&P), "Eagle Summit" (MP), "Eagle Chain" (MP), or "Eagle Path" (T&P). New York to San Antonio (ACF 10-6, Plan 9008) "Eagle Charm", "Eagle Bluff", "Eagle Chief", or "Eagle Beam". New York to Houston (ACF 10-6, Plan 9008) "Eagle Grand", "Eagle Eye", "Eagle Cove" or "Eagle Head" Washington to St. Louis-Houston "Eagle Oak" (PRR, ACF 10-6, Plan 9008), "Elk River" (MP), "Crystal River" (MP), or "Roaming River" (MP). (The MP cars were Budd built and are not available at this time.) These sides will be available shortly. You can view a photo of the PRR 10-6 at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html and scroll down to "Due in April". This is a poor quality pic and I hope to have a better one in about three weeks. Samples of these cars (completed) will be on display at the PRRT&HS annual meeting in late April. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] MAJOR Announcement - Pennsy S Models S Scale Brass X29 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:46:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Today is a very special day for me. Both of my websites have been updated. But first, here is the BIG news. I have been waiting for over 7 years to make this announcement. We have received another REA pilot model from my builder on Monday. It is VERY good. I have approved it to finally START PRODUCTION of the Railway Express version. After almost 4 years with my current builder, a few pilot models, and hundreds of hours and emails, we have arrived. I am getting the exact model that I have wanted since its inception, without ONE compromise to details. I have not seen all of them on ANY brass model in any scale before. It features punched rivets, prototypical draft gear, stainless steel wheels and stainless steel pointed axles, and a full functioning coil and leaf spring package. Most of the castings were cast in America from American made master patterns. If you want a REA version, the time to act is NOW. We are locking in the final production quantity in about 2 weeks. Once the REA version is completed and ships to us, the price will increase to at least $300.00. We have held the 3-year-old price to $250.00 in spite of extreme cost overruns. The freight versions that include B & O and NYC will follow later this year. We will have production REA cars at the NASG convention in July. Please see the Pennsy S Models website below for new photos of the car and a link to download the PDF order form. I have also updated my Lanes Trains website with new photos of my models. I have also added an HO section with more HO pieces being completed next week. I am taking in new models for painting as well. Please contact me directly. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:06:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/04 Re: Mens'/ womens' waiting rooms. In the 1800s it would not have been "proper" for a unattended woman to be alone with one or more men? John Liebeskind -------------------------------1080137191 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Re: Mens'/ womens' waiting rooms.
In the 1800s it would not have been "proper" for a  unattended wom= an to be alone with one or more men?
John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080137191-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:10:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/04 Disregard last mesage since I have scrolled down and seen someone has already provided a better answer. J. -------------------------------1080137439 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Disregard last mesage since I have scrolled down and seen someone has alr= eady provided a better answer. J. -------------------------------1080137439-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:07:30 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Segregation of the sexes in public buildings still exists in certain parts of the world. The Saudi Arabian airports I have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections for women, who are veiled, and men.=20 -----Original Message----- From: LeeRainey@aol.com [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:57 PM To: alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes: As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not=20 been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female=20 rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in bad language. This practice did not end in the 1880s. In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want to be in such a car. Lee Rainey=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C411B1.BA0232AC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Segregation of the sexes in public buildings = still=20 exists in certain parts of the world.  The Saudi Arabian = airports I=20 have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections = for women,=20 who are veiled, and men.
-----Original Message-----
From: LeeRainey@aol.com=20 [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 = 6:57=20 PM
To: alex@arclyte.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms

In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern = Standard Time,=20 alex@arclyte.com writes:


As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I = would=20 have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not = male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate waiting = rooms?


Same reason that there were "ladies' = cars" and=20 "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, = spat and=20 perhaps indulged in bad language.

This practice did not end in = the=20 1880s.

In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy = passenger=20 train home from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the = conductor=20 always directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the = train by=20 that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always = unpleasant, hot=20 and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on = the right=20 (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of = smoke,=20 cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would = want to be=20 in such a car.

Lee Rainey = ------_=_NextPart_001_01C411B1.BA0232AC-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] RE: Stations and waiting rooms Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:24:17 -0500 Greg, you are correct about the social structure back then. The depot at = the R&GVRRM was built in 1907 with separate waiting rooms, on opposite = sides of the ticket office. And, don't forget the other spurious element = in this story line, the traveling salesman or drummer whose sometimes = shady stories and jokes were also unwelcome by the ladies. I am = currently trying to find out when this practice ended at this location. OATKA / Industry depot on the Rochester Br of the Erie, but we have a = PRR connection,we own the Hammerhead 8445 (she still gets exercised) an = N5c and a H21g.=20 Check out the link , go to LV 211, bottom of that page and click on the = links for more pics. Yes, I am aware that it is currently in the wrong = scheme ,but , when it comes time to paint it again who knows. Lynn http://www.rochnrhs.org/rgvrrm.html =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4118A.2A93B9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Greg, you are correct about the social=20 structure back then. The depot at the R&GVRRM was built in 1907 = with=20 separate waiting rooms, on opposite sides of the ticket office. And, = don't=20 forget the other spurious element in this story line, the traveling = salesman or=20 drummer whose sometimes shady stories and jokes were also unwelcome by = the=20 ladies. I am currently trying to find out when this practice = ended at=20 this location.
OATKA / Industry depot on the = Rochester Br of=20 the Erie, but we have a PRR connection,we own the Hammerhead = 8445 (she=20 still gets exercised) an N5c and a H21g. 
 Check out the link , go to LV = 211, bottom of=20 that page and click on the links for more pics. Yes, I am aware that it = is=20 currently in the wrong scheme ,but , when it comes time to paint it = again=20 who knows.
Lynn
 
http://www.rochnrhs.org/rgvr= rm.html
  
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4118A.2A93B9E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:39:27 -0500 I don't believe there is a single Saudi airport that the PRR ever = stopped in. =20 regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:08 AM To: LeeRainey@aol.com; alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Segregation of the sexes in public buildings still exists in certain = parts of the world. The Saudi Arabian airports I have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections for women, who are veiled, and = men.=20 -----Original Message----- From: LeeRainey@aol.com [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:57 PM To: alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes: As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not=20 been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female=20 rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of = that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in = bad language. This practice did not end in the 1880s. In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home = from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always = directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the = right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of = smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want = to be in such a car. Lee Rainey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4118C.48220820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
I=20 don't believe there is a single Saudi airport that the PRR ever stopped=20 in.
 
regards,
Andy=20 Miller
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Cadwell,=20 Marvin L
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:08 = AM
To:=20 LeeRainey@aol.com; alex@arclyte.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE:=20 [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms

Segregation of the sexes in public = buildings still=20 exists in certain parts of the world.  The Saudi Arabian = airports I=20 have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections = for=20 women, who are veiled, and men.
-----Original Message-----
From: = LeeRainey@aol.com=20 [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 = 6:57=20 PM
To: alex@arclyte.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms

In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM = Eastern Standard=20 Time, alex@arclyte.com writes:


As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I = would=20 have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but = not=20 male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate = waiting=20 rooms?


Same reason that there were = "ladies' cars"=20 and "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who = smoked,=20 spat and perhaps indulged in bad language.

This practice did = not end=20 in the 1880s.

In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a = Pennsy=20 passenger train home from college on a regular basis. When I = boarded, the=20 conductor always directed me to the car on the left (there were only = two in=20 the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was = always=20 unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned = into the=20 car on the right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was = rebellious.) It=20 was free of smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously = assumed no=20 man would want to be in such a car.

Lee Rainey=20
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4118C.48220820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:31:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1964 Consist Book / 1925 Washington Yard From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Two more files added at Keystone Crossings... Yesterday I posted a 1945 employe timetable for Washington Yard. Today I have posted a 1926 version. Again, thanks to Jim Foley. In the Docs/ETT section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html But the biggie for today is the 1964 passenger consist book, provided by Ray Burghart. Unlike earlier editions, this one appears to be much more robust. North-south trains are included, as well as "corridor" trains and NYNH&H connecting trains. Not only are coaches listed, but specific classes. And trains that are MU powered are so noted. I would love to have this much info for 1954! The only thing I have for '54 that is not noted here are the actual sleeper assignments (by name). You can download this file from the Passenger Ops section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ Side note: I think yesterday may have been a record -- Keystone Crossings served out 1.7 GB of data! P.S. One of our astute readers found a cosmetic issue on page 21 of the Northern Division/Main Line track chart that I posted yesterday. I corrected it. If you had downloaded it, you might want to grab it again. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:59:01 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Smith Subject: [PRR] Lighted numberboard operation Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:01:50 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AST-4, AC-2 and AC-4 From: Frederick Ripley From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:13:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lighted numberboard operation They were lit when the headlights were lit. All the locos I have ever seen at night had all the number boards lit. Had nothing to do with the class lights. Bill --part1_6a.3d38102e.2d9329e6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" They were lit when the headlights w= ere lit.  All the locos I have ever seen at night had all the number bo= ards lit.  Had nothing to do with the class lights.  Bill --part1_6a.3d38102e.2d9329e6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] MOW FM Tower Car Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:48:07 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Does anybody know of whereabouts for drawings of a PRR MOW Tower Car. These would be the structural members used with an FM class flatcar to inspect/repair/etc. Catenary. It would be an interesting scratchbuilding project. TAOT Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR regions Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:12:55 -0500 Would someone please explain to me where the Central Region and the = Eastern Region are. Thanks. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Would someone please explain to me = where the=20 Central Region and the Eastern Region are.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR regions Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:12:55 -0500 Would someone please explain to me where the Central Region and the = Eastern Region are. Thanks. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Would someone please explain to me = where the=20 Central Region and the Eastern Region are.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] 1964 Consist Book / 1925 Washington Yard Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:01:44 -0500 To: Tom Kane X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry folks, didn't mean to be a tease! Thanks, Tom! On Mar 24, 2004, at 4:36 PM, Tom Kane wrote: > Jerry, > > There does not seem to be a link for the 1964 passenger consist book. > The > text is there but no hotspot. > > Tom Kane > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:31 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] 1964 Consist Book / 1925 Washington Yard > > > Two more files added at Keystone Crossings... > > Yesterday I posted a 1945 employe timetable for Washington Yard. Today > I have posted a 1926 version. Again, thanks to Jim Foley. In the > Docs/ETT section... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html > > But the biggie for today is the 1964 passenger consist book, provided > by Ray Burghart. Unlike earlier editions, this one appears to be much > more robust. North-south trains are included, as well as "corridor" > trains and NYNH&H connecting trains. Not only are coaches listed, but > specific classes. And trains that are MU powered are so noted. I would > love to have this much info for 1954! The only thing I have for '54 > that is not noted here are the actual sleeper assignments (by name). > You can download this file from the Passenger Ops section... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ > > Side note: I think yesterday may have been a record -- Keystone > Crossings served out 1.7 GB of data! > > P.S. One of our astute readers found a cosmetic issue on page 21 of the > Northern Division/Main Line track chart that I posted yesterday. I > corrected it. If you had downloaded it, you might want to grab it > again. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" > - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1F843DB3-7DE8-11D8-8920-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:08:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Bowser N8's are out and they look pretty good. The lettering is clear and the colors, where applicable, are excellent. Those modeling the pool service cars will appreciate the colored cupolas. Now, for those who moaned and groaned over the thickness of the grabs... 99% of you will be very pleased. They are VERY thin. Probably the thinnest I have ever seen in plastic! The roofwalks, likewise, are extremely well done. Now, for the flip side, and I hope I am wrong, but I'd bet there will be moans and groans that people BREAK the grabs because they are so thin. Now wouldn't that be ironic! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:42:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR regions The Central Region did go beyond Pittsburgh, through Canton as far as Crestline, Ohio on the route of the "Broadway Limited", which was the Eastern Div. of Lines West. The Western Region began at the end of the Central Region. The Central Region also included the Panhandle Division. Dennis Sautters Canton, OH -------------------------------1080175333 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
The Central Region did go beyond Pittsburgh, through Canton as far= as Crestline, Ohio on the route of the "Broadway Limited", which was t= he Eastern Div. of Lines West. The Western Region began at the end of the Ce= ntral Region.  The Central Region also included the Panhandle Division.=
 
Dennis Sautters
Canton, OH
 
 
-------------------------------1080175333-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5BF45330-7DFD-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:40:13 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hey, gang... BLI updated their web site tonight with pre-production photos of the forthcoming E7's. Yes, trainphones! I did note one noteworthy error that I have reported to BLI. Anyone else notice it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5BF45330-7DFD-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:40:13 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hey, gang... BLI updated their web site tonight with pre-production photos of the forthcoming E7's. Yes, trainphones! I did note one noteworthy error that I have reported to BLI. Anyone else notice it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:47:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Last week I spent a lot of time poring over photos of E7's, preparing to "prototype" a fleet of N scale Life Like E7's. I've learned a lot about the various units on the roster. Now that BLI has posted photos of their HO models, we can identify that the model most closely reflects the second and third batches of PRR orders... The Pennsy ordered E7's in four batches... The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had freight pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had grills (most units had louvers). The second and third batches contained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, even numbers only, plus 5900). They had passenger pilots and one single chime horn. The fourth and final batch contained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like the first batch, they had grills instead of louvers in the panel behind the cab doors. There were also some additional vents on the side, and the window arrangement was different. Initial units did not have lift rings or trainphones. At first they were added by the Pennsy, later at the factory. All A units probably had these by the end of the 1940's. Note that the added vents, change in windows, and grill over the panel behind the cab door that were included in the fourth batch were retrofitted to many other units in the mid-1950's. Also in the mid-1950's -- probably when the paint scheme changed to single wide stripe in 1956 -- the small, streamlined number boards were replaced with large, external, angled number boards. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:47:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Last week I spent a lot of time poring over photos of E7's, preparing to "prototype" a fleet of N scale Life Like E7's. I've learned a lot about the various units on the roster. Now that BLI has posted photos of their HO models, we can identify that the model most closely reflects the second and third batches of PRR orders... The Pennsy ordered E7's in four batches... The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had freight pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had grills (most units had louvers). The second and third batches contained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, even numbers only, plus 5900). They had passenger pilots and one single chime horn. The fourth and final batch contained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like the first batch, they had grills instead of louvers in the panel behind the cab doors. There were also some additional vents on the side, and the window arrangement was different. Initial units did not have lift rings or trainphones. At first they were added by the Pennsy, later at the factory. All A units probably had these by the end of the 1940's. Note that the added vents, change in windows, and grill over the panel behind the cab door that were included in the fourth batch were retrofitted to many other units in the mid-1950's. Also in the mid-1950's -- probably when the paint scheme changed to single wide stripe in 1956 -- the small, streamlined number boards were replaced with large, external, angled number boards. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:15:14 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5BF45330-7DFD-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: -----Original Message----- I did note one noteworthy error that I have reported to BLI. Anyone else notice it? The striping color looks the same on both units. The DGLE model should have gold leaf stripes. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI Disclaimer Reminder Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:18:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I will remind all that the photos posted on BLI's site bear the=20 following message: "NOTE: These are engineering sample photos and there are some=20 imperfections. Changes may be made to final product.=A0" ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:25:52 -0500 To: "Andy Cich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 9:15 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > > The striping color looks the same on both units. The DGLE model > should have > gold leaf stripes. Hadn't noticed that! But you are right! But when I looked to confirm, I noticed another detail they got right. Note the numbers in the number board on the DGLE unit are very small. That's correct. And originally the Tuscan units were the same. But later the numbers were made larger, as in the Tuscan unit that is depicted. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:50:48 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, First regarding my color comment, I should have added the caveat that we are looking at web photos. However, the with the units side by side I would expect to notice a difference. I do like your summary of the 4 batches of deliveries. I do have one slight disagreement with your description of the 4th batch. I think the extra vents you are describing is the "Phase 2 carbody modification" that was applied to all* units in the early 50's. (I shouldn't say all, since some units may not have been converted.) Basically, additional vents were added to the side and a window was lost. The vent behind the cab was changed, and another was added on the side near the top rear. Also, the louvres on the roof were changed to a "chicken wire" type. Delta Models makes this part in HO. Look for part DM-300 http://www.deltamodels.bigstep.com/generic.html?pid=22 Finally, have you noticed that there were three different passenger pilots supplied by EMD? I can't take credit for noticing this myself. I think Steve Hoxie originally brought it up. If you have Withers Vol. 7, see if you can find them. I am talking about three different "as-built" versions. Not later modifications. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:55:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, Oops, I just re-read your message and saw where you noted the carbody changes were applied to other units. I'm still not sure if the 4th batch was built with these modifications. Time to find a builders photo. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:32:14 -0500 Jerry, from your 1954 Makeup of trains, does it show milk cars returning = in another train as empties ?? If so, what was the time difference at = destination until the train with empties left ?? ------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C41200.9F0AC680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jerry, from your 1954 Makeup of trains, = does it=20 show milk cars returning in another train as empties = ??    If so,=20 what was the time difference at destination until the train with empties = left=20 ??
------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C41200.9F0AC680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:10:01 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry--I have to agree with Andy on his comments about the fourth batch: as delivered window, vent, and grill configuration just like the previous batches. See Withers Vol. 7 p. 496, engine 5869, for one example. And Andy wrote: > > I think the extra > vents you are describing is the "Phase 2 carbody modification" that was > applied to all* units in the early 50's. (I shouldn't say all, since some > units may not have been converted.) > Puleeeeeeeeeeeeze, somebody come up with a 1954 photo of an "unconverted" E-7! With little hope of a positive response to my plea, the BLI Tuscan Red engine is sadly a fantasy with its original vents/windows/grills. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 04:53:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The Pennsy ordered E7's in four batches... > > The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had > freight pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had > grills (most units had louvers). But the freight pilot as you call it (actually better known as the exposed coupler pilot by EMD) was of the early type used on the FT units, note the extreme cut back slope... (Andy pilot #1) This was later modified by EMD. The area behind the entry door where the intake filters set (your reference as grills and louvers) was actually where the entry door was on the EMD E6 and earlier units... Also all units were delivered with slatted grills on the roof this will change more later... > The second and third batches contained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and > 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, even numbers only, plus 5900). They had > passenger pilots and one single chime horn. Let's use the EMD terminology of enclosed coupler pilot ... the clam shell type... I refer to this as the "type 1 boxy pilot" (Andy pilot #2) The air intake filters are now behind shutters (your reference as louvers). The early units were all delivered with box journals on the trucks and over time this changes... Railroad modification. > The fourth and final batch contained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like > the first batch, they had grills instead of louvers in the panel behind the > cab doors. There were also some additional vents on the side, and the window > arrangement was different. OOPS look closer ... these units were delivered with shutters behind the door as well ... the window arrangement didn't change and the vents didn't change as delivered ... they now have a newer enclosed coupler pilot a "type 2 streamlined " clam shell (Andy pilot #3). > Initial units did not have lift rings or trainphones. At first they were > added by the Pennsy, later at the factory. All A units probably had these by > the end of the 1940's. I think you are marking reference to the "Lifting Lugs" on the nose. The last batch was delivered with these, the first three were not, they were added later, just as with the F units. > Note that the added vents, change in windows, and grill over the panel > behind the cab door that were included in the fourth batch were retrofitted to > many other units in the mid-1950's. Actually the air intake system began being modified on or about April of 1951, with the addition of the rear vent, the roof vent changing from the slatted grills to the less restrictive "chicken wire" (as Andy calls it and yes the Delta Models are great etchings I have mine already). This was done to provide more air flow over the radiators. By the end of the 50's all units were converted and most by 1954... Now we loose a window as Andy notes... > Also in the mid-1950's -- probably when the paint scheme changed to single > wide stripe in 1956 -- the small, streamlined number boards were replaced > with large, external, angled number boards. > EMD created two styles of streamlined number boards, a "three digit number board" and a "four digit number board" I refer to the PRR's as "4-digit Streamlined number boards." The number boards were changed in shopping's in late 1954 or early 1955 along with the modified exposed coupler pilot (PRR mod). Some of the first journal swaps appeared as early as 1956 while still in 5-stripes. Then Jerry writes... And I noticed that there are (correctly) two exhaust stacks for the steam generators. A lot of predecessor models only have one. (What Jerry is seeing is two intake vents and the box ahead is the exhaust stack like the ALCo PA type, but not correct for the PRR, but good for some SANTA FE GP-9's) OOOPPPPSSS! Only if they are EMD E-8's... The E7's have a single exhaust and single intake style intake as per the Vapor DRK-4530 system and the E-8's were equipped with the Vapor OK-4625 system "Twins." The AP-20/AFP20's were also equipped with the Vapor DRK-4530 system albeit the exhaust stack and intake stack didn't look like the EMD's. YIKES SORRY! >From examining the photos... The steam generator system is wrong for PRR... The pilots are wrong for this configuration of pre 1951... The horns are wrong for this configuration... The stripe on the DGLE unit should be Gold Leaf... The Tuscan units appears to have too much yellow in the stripes... (this might be the photography) but they should be BUFF PRR SHADE ... but shouldn't appear in this paint scheme with this configuration... It is a shame that we have another E7 in the very early configuration offered in PRR. This has been done before and what I would like to see is the later config. Does anyone know if the shell is plastic or metal? If Plastic these things can be overcome. The sound option is nice but Life Like's units are being retooled and will have sound as well. I did run a set of UP E7's from BLI in Cocoa Beach and their pulling ability was less than I had expected ... but the sound was great. Sorry I know I am a picky "moaning" bastard (as Jerry mentions in his N8 message) and a rivet counter to boot but that is what I see from my side of the fence, but it is not without repair as any of the prior units released have the same issues. That RATSO Greg Martin --part1_d4.855d75f.2d940609_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" jerry@pennsyrr.com w= rites:

The Pennsy ordered E7's in four= batches...

The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had frei= ght pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had g= rills (most units had louvers).


But the freight pilot as you call it (actually better known a= s the exposed coupler pilot by EMD) was of the early type used on the FT uni= ts, note the extreme cut back slope... (Andy pilot #1) This was later modifi= ed by EMD. The area behind the entry door where the intake filters set (your= reference as grills and louvers) was actually where the entry door was on t= he EMD E6 and earlier units... Also all units were delivered with slatted gr= ills on the roof this will change more later...

The second and third batches co= ntained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, ev= en numbers only, plus 5900). They had passenger pilots and one single chime=20= horn.


Let's use the EMD terminology of enclosed coupler pilot ... the clam shell t= ype... I refer to this as the "type 1 boxy pilot" (Andy pilot #2) The air in= take filters are now behind shutters (your reference as louvers). The early=20= units were all delivered with box journals on the trucks and over time this=20= changes... Railroad modification.

The fourth and final batch cont= ained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like the first batch, they had grills=20= instead of louvers in the panel behind the cab doors. There were also some a= dditional vents on the side, and the window arrangement was different.

OOPS look closer ... these units were delivered with shutters= behind the door as well ... the window arrangement didn't change and the ve= nts didn't change as delivered ... they now have a newer enclosed coupler pi= lot a "type 2 streamlined " clam shell (Andy pilot #3).

Initial units did not have lift= rings or trainphones. At first they were added by the Pennsy, later at the=20= factory. All A units probably had these by the end of the 1940's.

I think you are marking reference to the "Lifting Lugs" on th= e nose. The last batch was delivered with these, the first three were not, t= hey were added later, just as with the F units.

Note that the added vents, chan= ge in windows, and grill over the panel behind the cab door that were includ= ed in the fourth batch were retrofitted to many other units in the mid-1950'= s.


Actually the air intake system began being modified on or abo= ut April of 1951, with the addition of the rear vent, the roof vent changing= from the slatted grills to the less restrictive "chicken wire" (as Andy cal= ls it and yes the Delta Models are great etchings I have mine already). This= was done to provide more air flow over the radiators. By the end of the 50'= s all units were converted and most by 1954...  Now we loose a window a= s Andy notes...

Also in the mid-1950's -- proba= bly when the paint scheme changed to single wide stripe in 1956 -- the small= , streamlined number boards were replaced with large, external, angled numbe= r boards.


EMD created two styles of streamlined number boards, a "three digit number b= oard" and a "four digit number board" I refer to the PRR's as "4-digit Strea= mlined number boards."  The number boards were changed in shopping's in= late 1954 or early 1955 along with the modified exposed coupler pilot (PRR=20= mod). Some of the first journal swaps appeared as early as 1956 while still=20= in 5-stripes.

Then Jerry writes...

And I noticed that there are (correctly) two exhaust stacks for the steam g= enerators. A lot of predecessor models only have one. (What Jerry is seeing=20= is two intake vents and the box ahead is the exhaust stack like the ALCo PA=20= type, but not correct for the PRR, but good for some SANTA FE GP-9's)

OOOPPPPSSS! Only if they are EMD E-8's... The E7's have a sin= gle exhaust and single intake style intake as per the Vapor DRK-4530 system=20= and the E-8's were equipped with the Vapor OK-4625 system "Twins." The AP-20= /AFP20's were also equipped with the Vapor DRK-4530 system albeit the exhaus= t stack and intake stack didn't look like the EMD's. YIKES SORRY!

>From examining the photos... The steam generator system is wrong for PRR...=20= The pilots are wrong for this configuration of pre 1951...  The horns a= re wrong for this configuration... The stripe on the DGLE unit should be Gol= d Leaf... The Tuscan units appears to have too much yellow in the stripes...= (this might be the photography) but they should be BUFF PRR SHADE ... but s= houldn't appear in this paint scheme with this configuration...

It is a shame that we have another E7 in the very early configuration offere= d in PRR. This has been done before and what I would like to see is the late= r config.

Does anyone know if the shell is plastic or metal?  If Plastic these th= ings can be overcome.  The sound option is nice but Life Like's units a= re being retooled and will have sound as well. I did run a set of UP E7's fr= om BLI in Cocoa Beach and their pulling ability was less than I had expected= ... but the sound was great.

Sorry I know I am a picky "moaning" bastard (as Jerry mentions in his N8 mes= sage) and a rivet counter to boot but that is what I see from my side of the= fence, but it is not without repair as any of the prior units released have= the same issues.

That RATSO

Greg Martin  --part1_d4.855d75f.2d940609_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:33:35 -0500 To: "Andy Cich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 9:50 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > Finally, have you noticed that there were three different passenger > pilots > supplied by EMD? I can't take credit for noticing this myself. I > think > Steve Hoxie originally brought it up. If you have Withers Vol. 7, see > if > you can find them. I am talking about three different "as-built" > versions. Not later modifications. The first batch had freight pilots. I wasn't aware of three different passenger pilots, but I was aware of one passenger pilot which had two variants of the doors that covered the coupler when not in use. Is this what you are referring to? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:36:18 -0500 To: "STEPHEN HOXIE" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 25, 2004, at 1:10 AM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > And Andy wrote: >> >> I think the extra >> vents you are describing is the "Phase 2 carbody modification" that >> was >> applied to all* units in the early 50's. (I shouldn't say all, since >> some >> units may not have been converted.) >> > Puleeeeeeeeeeeeze, somebody come up with a 1954 photo of an > "unconverted" > E-7! With little hope of a positive response to my plea, the BLI > Tuscan Red > engine is sadly a fantasy with its original vents/windows/grills. There are DEFINITELY examples of unmodified units well after 1954. I think the Withers book has them, but I viewed them last week in my N scale research. What I cannot account for is the road names that BLI is doing and what year they may, or may not, have been converted. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:32:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/04 In a message dated 3/24/04 1:11:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Gregg is right on the money about the waiting rooms (plural) for men and > women, even in the smaller towns such as Spring City. > > Here in Columbia the Reading and Columbia station, designed in the 1880s by > the famous Philadelphia architect frank Furness, who also did Broad Street > station (see, there is a Pennsy connection) had both a men's and women's > waiting rooms. There was a sign above one entrance and it said "Waiting > Rooms." > > Fred Abendschein > Not only did the men's waiting room really mean "smoking, chewing, and profanity" room, but the women's waiting room meant "women and children" room. Obviously, the separate rooms were to protect men against the annoyance of crying babies... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_8c.6aa9776.2d942b6f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/24/04 1:11:33=20= AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Gregg is right on the money abo= ut the waiting rooms (plural) for men and
women, even in the smaller towns such as Spring City.

Here in Columbia the Reading and Columbia station, designed in the 1880s by<= BR> the famous Philadelphia architect frank Furness, who also did Broad Street station (see, there is a Pennsy connection) had both a men's and women's
waiting rooms.  There was a sign above one entrance and it said "Waitin= g
Rooms."

Fred Abendschein


Not only did the men's waiting room really mean "smoking, chewing, and profa= nity" room, but the women's waiting room meant "women and children" room.&nb= sp; Obviously, the separate rooms were to protect men against the annoyance=20= of crying babies... <G>

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_8c.6aa9776.2d942b6f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Water/signal bridge Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:11:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, How accurate and correct is this water bridge? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3183644880 Is there a more accurate example? Am I correct in that it is the same structure as a signal bridge? Please reply to me privately as I do not want to distract from this person's Ebay sale. Finally what is the acceptable length increase to take in account the wider model track centers vs. the closer prototype track centers? I have heard of previously made HO models that were very nice but could used be because they were too close to fit the width of the model mainline. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:37:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI & East Coast Hobby Show From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <97FC435E-7E61-11D8-9DBD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'd e-mailed BLI on the E7 horns. Already got a response. They will take my "opinion" on the horns into consideration and see what others have to say when they display them at the East Coast Hobby Show. So if you are going to the show, comment on the: 1) Extra horn that should be removed; 2) Lettering and striping on the DGLE unit that should be Gold Leaf, not Buff; 3) Lift rings that should be added (though modeler could do). I'm sure they'll have the J1's on display...maybe even the switchers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:58:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry wrote-- > > There are DEFINITELY examples of unmodified units well after 1954. I > think the Withers book has them, but I viewed them last week in my N > scale research. > Again, please point out book/page/engine number. I have been thru Withers dozens of times; I don't see unmodified units in any book later than 1952. Thanks, Jerry!! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:03:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <41CE2B18-7E65-11D8-9DBD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Until 6-18-53, the Keystone on the front of the locomotive contained the road number. The DGLE was changed to Tuscan as of 8-11-52. But the BLI E7 has the PRR monogram inside the Keystone, which would be incorrect. For all DGLE and and on Tuscan paint jobs through 9-2-53, the five stripes ran right across the windows. Yes, the windows were painted! So the DGLE paint job is incorrect and the Tuscan paint job is open to dating interpretation. Is anyone from the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee following this thread, so as to contact BLI on behalf of the Society? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Oil City Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500 Bob N. and others, about 2 miles up stream from Oil City at Rouseville = the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it splits to each side of the = creek from there to Titusville.=20 Was there that much traffic 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage or = did the NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What is the rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City = ?? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob N. and others,  =  about 2 miles=20 up stream from Oil City at Rouseville the line
goes to double track to near Pioneer = where it=20 splits to each side of the creek from
there to Titusville. 
Was there that much traffic 70 years = ago to warrant=20 all the trackage or did
the NYC go up there to its line at = Titusville=20 ??
 
What is the rail line going up the hill = above the=20 east side of Oil City ??
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Oil City Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500 Bob N. and others, about 2 miles up stream from Oil City at Rouseville = the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it splits to each side of the = creek from there to Titusville.=20 Was there that much traffic 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage or = did the NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What is the rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City = ?? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob N. and others,  =  about 2 miles=20 up stream from Oil City at Rouseville the line
goes to double track to near Pioneer = where it=20 splits to each side of the creek from
there to Titusville. 
Was there that much traffic 70 years = ago to warrant=20 all the trackage or did
the NYC go up there to its line at = Titusville=20 ??
 
What is the rail line going up the hill = above the=20 east side of Oil City ??
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:14:42 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41CE2B18-7E65-11D8-9DBD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: While we are on the subject of BLI. I notice that they keep referring to their forthcoming stock car models as "based on" the PRR K7a. They never call it a model of the K7a's! Does this mean there are acknowledged discrepancies? If so, does anyone know what they are? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:21:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Loco Models Road Number Size From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR passenger loco road numbers, as of June 1953, were 9" at the head end and 8" at the rear end. I've been successful in scanning in the Synthetic Buff (post 1952 stripes and lettering) drift card, color matching its CMYK elements, and accurately reproducing the color with output from a Ricoh color proofer (laser technology; which can print to decal film). Using Adobe Illustrator, I set type for road numbers at .05" high (8" / 160). I can print that, and actually read it! And the color is a dead ringer for not only the drift card, but also for recent Microscale decals. However, when I compare the output to existing Kato or Life Like models, my type is smaller. I don't have anything that can measure accurately at that size, but either the computer is doing something amiss, or the Kato and Life Like numbers are scaled about 12" or so. Anyone know? My plan is to produce road numbers without having to splice together individual numerals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:21:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Loco Models Road Number Size From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR passenger loco road numbers, as of June 1953, were 9" at the head end and 8" at the rear end. I've been successful in scanning in the Synthetic Buff (post 1952 stripes and lettering) drift card, color matching its CMYK elements, and accurately reproducing the color with output from a Ricoh color proofer (laser technology; which can print to decal film). Using Adobe Illustrator, I set type for road numbers at .05" high (8" / 160). I can print that, and actually read it! And the color is a dead ringer for not only the drift card, but also for recent Microscale decals. However, when I compare the output to existing Kato or Life Like models, my type is smaller. I don't have anything that can measure accurately at that size, but either the computer is doing something amiss, or the Kato and Life Like numbers are scaled about 12" or so. Anyone know? My plan is to produce road numbers without having to splice together individual numerals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:27:41 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:43:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, In regards to contacting BLI on the E7 problems, the PRR version particularly, I think it is far too late to do anything about. After reading all that is wrong with it, I believe it would be best if BLI throw the shell away and start spending another $500,000 on all new tooling. We know that is not going to happen. So, this model will probably keep all it's built in faults. I am not speaking on behalf of BLI or anyone else, just my opinion. BLI may be receptive in several small changes, ie, stripe color but don't expect to have the horn removed, the generator exhuast modified, etc, etc. Trying to sway their thinking on a loco about to go to press so to speak, probably isn't going to happen. Before BLI started to actually release models, I had timely responses, almost 100%, from their representitives, usually Tony himself. Since the models have been hitting production, replys from my emails have dropped to about 20%. I have a way around that it seems now. So, you diesels experts get together today and make a list, just 1 list, do not keep sending single suggestions in one at a time on PRR-Talk, of ALL details that need fixed to better represent a PRR E7 unit. I can forward them on if you wish. But like I said, too late for this model I am sure. .......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gary Leanz" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:46:40 -0500 Andy, I recently presented your question directly to BLI, who said that these = stock cars will be accurate PRR K7a models--with no intentional = discrepancies. BLI said the reason their literature says "based on" = the K7a is to avoid turning off non-PRR modelers, since the car will be = offered in several other roadnames. Gary Leanz ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Andy Miller" To: "'Jerry Britton'" ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" = Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 9:14 AM Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars > While we are on the subject of BLI. I notice that they keep referring = to > their forthcoming stock car models as "based on" the PRR K7a. They = never > call it a model of the K7a's! Does this mean there are acknowledged > discrepancies? If so, does anyone know what they are? >=20 > Regards, > Andy Miller >=20 >=20 >=20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C4124E.12DAE160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Andy,
 
I recently presented your question = directly to=20 BLI, who said that these stock cars will be accurate = PRR K7a=20 models--with no intentional discrepancies.   BLI said the = reason their=20 literature says "based on" the K7a is to avoid turning off non-PRR=20 modelers, since the car will be offered in several other=20 roadnames.
 
Gary Leanz
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
To: "'Jerry Britton'" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; = "'PRR-Talk=20 LIST'" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 9:14 = AM
Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock=20 cars

> While we are on the subject of BLI.  I notice that = they keep=20 referring to
> their forthcoming stock car models as "based on" = the PRR=20 K7a.  They never
> call it a model of the K7a's!   = Does=20 this mean there are acknowledged
> discrepancies?  If so, = does anyone=20 know what they are?
>
> Regards,
> Andy = Miller
>=20
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C4124E.12DAE160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:14:08 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Freight car color From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:51:39 -0500 I believe it was proper for men and women to have separate waiting rooms during the good old days because women wanted to breast feed and men typically wanted to expectorate tabacky and smoke stogies. Things haven't changed much, except that in many cases the waiting rooms have been eliminated along with the tracks outside. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Alex Charyna [mailto:alex@arclyte.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:50 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Listers, I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C41257.2798DA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
I=20 believe it was proper for men and women to have separate waiting rooms = during=20 the good old days because women wanted to breast feed and men typically = wanted=20 to expectorate tabacky and smoke stogies.  Things haven't = changed=20 much, except that in many cases the waiting rooms have been eliminated = along=20 with the tracks outside.
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex = Charyna=20 [mailto:alex@arclyte.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 = 11:50=20 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Stations = and=20 Waiting Rooms

Listers,
I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting = Rooms and=20 Women's Waiting Rooms in
some stations (Spring City in this case, = but I've=20 seen it elsewhere).
As the stations were built in the mid to late = 1800s, I=20 would have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but = not=20 male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate waiting=20 = rooms?
-alex



------------------------------------------= -----------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C41257.2798DA40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:49:22 -0600 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the windows issue wasn't so cut = and dry. There are photos that show stripes on all the windows, stripes = on none of the windows, and every possible combination in between, = including one window in a pair with stripes and the other without. And = this is in both DGLE and Tuscan. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:05:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Stephen Hoxie wrote: > Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the windows issue wasn't so > cut and dry. There are photos that show stripes on all the windows, > stripes on none of the windows, and every possible combination in > between, including one window in a pair with stripes and the other > without. And this is in both DGLE and Tuscan. There are a couple such photos where the caption indicates the photo was retouched to remove them. In some of these, if you look close, you can actually see hints of the retouching. Also, I imagine paint scraped off of glass fairly easily, so I suspect the stripes on the glass would lose their intensity or disappear completely over time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:18:01 -0500 From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations RE: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations

Listers,

Do you think if the window broke and they replaced it = they would repaint the stripes?

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:05 PM
To: Stephen Hoxie
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint = Observations


On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 11:49  AM, = Stephen Hoxie wrote:

> Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the = windows issue wasn't so
> cut and dry.  There are photos that show = stripes on all the windows,
> stripes on none of the windows, and every = possible combination in
> between, including one window in a pair with = stripes and the other
> without.  And this is in both DGLE and = Tuscan.

There are a couple such photos where the caption = indicates the photo
was retouched to remove them. In some of these, if = you look close, you
can actually see hints of the retouching.

Also, I imagine paint scraped off of glass fairly = easily, so I suspect
the stripes on the glass would lose their intensity = or disappear
completely over time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4128D.207406A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] E unit portholes Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:20:53 +0000 From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:33:04 -0500 Does anyone out there know the ICC site for Railroad accidents? Thank You leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C4126D.B3D2FA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone out there know the ICC site for Railroad = accidents?
 
 
Thank You
 
 
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C4126D.B3D2FA20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:27:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: BLI is getting into the passenger car business... First train out will be the California Zephyr. The PRR's "Silver Rapids" will be included. Suggested retail on the cars will be $64.99-69.99. I have no further details at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:48:54 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: And what kind of sound will come from the passenger cars? Snoring from the sleepers, belching from the diners, and from the restrooms... Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 3:27 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains BLI is getting into the passenger car business... First train out will be the California Zephyr. The PRR's "Silver=20 Rapids" will be included. Suggested retail on the cars will be $64.99-69.99. I have no further details at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:49:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > BLI is getting into the passenger car business... > > First train out will be the California Zephyr. The PRR's "Silver > Rapids" will be included. > > Suggested retail on the cars will be $64.99-69.99. > > I have no further details at this time. > Over 30 cars in all, to be released a few a month, starting in November. Lighted, so I assume with interiors. Maybe I shouldn't assume. One person speculated that the cars will be sound equiped... diners belching, sleepers snoring, lavatories... Never mind! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:50:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 03:48 PM, Andy Miller wrote: > And what kind of sound will come from the passenger cars? > > Snoring from the sleepers, belching from the diners, and from the > restrooms... We just cross-posted! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:54:59 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] E unit portholes Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Norm ndbprr@att.net writes: > Anybody know why EMD switched to portholes instead of staying with the square windows? It has to be a styling related reason as they don't let in as much light. Norm, It was an effort to standardize parts between F-units and E-units. Remember the E units were still in production in the late 50's as E-9's for the Union Pacific. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:07:47 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Chaney cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > Listers, > Do you think if the window broke and they replaced it they would repaint the stripes? > Chris Chany Chris, Not, I wouldn't believe they would but the that's not to say they didn't and there may be evidence that they did. The issue with the stripes coming off the windows was likely due to the wash racks... I know that the original "Gold Leaf" stripe (actually Bronze/Gold) was applied with common varnish as an adhesive including over the windows. As the varnishes broke donw I believe that the brittle stripe likely came off. But I can't prioove this as I was working in the shops. The adhesion to the glass was far less tht that to a painted surface. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Re: Oil City Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:25:02 -0500 Bob, check the map that you sent the link to. Lynn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C41285.B9964580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob, check the map that you sent the = link=20 to.
 
Lynn 
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C41285.B9964580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:17:32 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] accident reports Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:13:38 -0500 I believe that this is the site that you are referring to. Duane Miller http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: edmund burbage=20 To: PRR-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: [PRR]=20 Does anyone out there know the ICC site for Railroad accidents? Thank You leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C412B6.6C787D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I believe that this is the site that you are = referring=20 to.
 
Duane Miller
 
http://dotlibrary.speci= alcollection.net/
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 edmund=20 burbage
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 = 1:33=20 PM
Subject: [PRR]

Does anyone out there know the ICC site for Railroad = accidents?
 
 
Thank You
 
 
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
=
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C412B6.6C787D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] The 3 EP20 "Passenger" pilots Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:26:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Here are the 3 "passenger" pilots as revealed to me by Steve Hoxie about a year ago. I will give examples from Withers Vol 7. P 471 shows 5843 with straight edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 484 shows these same style doors on 5852 in the open position. P 472 shows 5865 and 5871 with rounded edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 485 shows 5854 with the swinging clamshell doors in the closed position. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] The 3 EP20 "Passenger" pilots Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:26:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Here are the 3 "passenger" pilots as revealed to me by Steve Hoxie about a year ago. I will give examples from Withers Vol 7. P 471 shows 5843 with straight edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 484 shows these same style doors on 5852 in the open position. P 472 shows 5865 and 5871 with rounded edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 485 shows 5854 with the swinging clamshell doors in the closed position. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:36:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/25/04 Perhaps they are going to market them w/ other road names? John Liebeskind -------------------------------1080308177 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Perhaps they are going to market them w/ other road names?
John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080308177-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:00:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was wondering if any additional information has surfaced since Rick Tipton's article on Pennsy Covered Hopper lettering in the Keystone regarding "Return to Kenny Pa." Rick's article doesn't list the commodity carried by those assigned hoppers, and now that i have the Kadee car I want to weather it appropriately. Kenny Pa was on the Mohangehla. Division if that helps. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:00:15 -0500 The BLI Passenger car announcement has hit the Walthers website. See: http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200403/Passenger It is the California Zephyr with numerous 10-6 names including PRR "Silver Rapids", and several types of domes. List price is $65, 70 for dome cars. regards, Andy Miller ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C41329.E6AB0110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
The = BLI Passenger=20 car announcement has hit the Walthers website.  = See:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200403/Passenger
 
It is = the California=20 Zephyr with numerous 10-6 names including PRR "Silver Rapids", and = several types=20 of domes.
List = price is $65,=20 70 for dome cars.
 
regards,
Andy=20 Miller
------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C41329.E6AB0110-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:34:37 -0800

Members of = the PRRT&HS

 

I apologize = in advance for the use of bandwidth, but I desperately need to ask for your = assistance.

 

The = Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society has sustained a significant decrease = in renewals this calendar year. It is very possible that placement of the = renewal form in the autumn issue of The = Keystone may have been responsible for some folks waiting for the traditional = winter mailing of renewal forms.  = For those folks, that cannot find their renewal form, you may renew today at the Society's e-Store at: http://club-e-st= ores.com/prr/prrths_store.html or send a $38.00 check payable to the PRRT&HS, to The Stanleys, 558 Summit Drive, Lewistown, PA = 17044-1252. Make sure it's annotated for 2004 renewal and includes your membership number, if you know = it.

 

However, = there are also some folks within the Society that strongly believe the appearance of = The Keystone Modeler is directly responsible for = this decline in renewals.  The = decline is so significant that it threatens the fiscal stability of the same = Society that listened to your pleas and brought you TKM (as of March 24th = there are 669 members that have not renewed).  And this all without a dues increase or subscribers fee, no = less.  The PRRT&HS does not = generate a profit.  In fact, the = Society publishes The Keystone and The Keystone Modeler magazines, assists manufacturer activities, does = product reviews, collects and catalogs PRR documents, and is creating a = first-class accessible archive facility in which to conduct research, entirely = supported by the members' resources.

 

Although the = jury is out on a complete correlation between non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that have failed to renew as = members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe to TKM= .  There is also no doubt that = should these folks not renew, it will directly threaten TKM, = The Keystone, and other Society offerings, as the = Society must regroup to remain solvent.

 

For those of = you that simply forgot to renew, or were waiting for your renewal form, please = renew today.  For those that did not renew = and were not planning to, please reconsider.  Your membership dues directly support all of the activities and = products from which you benefit, only one of which is our (still) free modeling magazine.

 

We may have = brought about our own demise, from the simple belief that we should supply this = modeling resource at no cost to you, our readers.  = I hope you can prove to those that are saying that = TKM is a detriment to the Society that they are = wrong.

 

Elden = Gatwood

Chairman, = Modeling Committee.

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C41347.D8E616A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between=20 > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that=20 > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe=20= > to TKM.=A0There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it=20= > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings,=20= > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of=20 the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point=20 membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in=20 numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there=20= is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing=20 members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to=20 include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of=20= the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming=20 outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM=20 has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are=20= now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that=20 the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying=20 the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying=20= is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be=20 prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a=20 historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in=20 modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the=20 population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the=20 number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only --=20= members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most=20 likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the=20 prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high=20 quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look=20= at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members,=20= but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock=20 it so you need a password to open it. The password would change=20 quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the=20 respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a=20 thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:56:41 -0800 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry; Jerry; I hope you don't mind keeping this discussion open, as you have brought = up a number of important topics, as has Morgan, in his message. I will try = to answer. Comment 1: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between=20 > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that=20 > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also = subscribe=20 > to TKM.=A0 I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of=20 the TKM.=20 Response 1: There are absolutely some that did not renew but subscribed = to TKM. =20 Comment 2: But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. Response 2: This we cannot absolutely determine, because there are so = many that use e-mail addresses that do not contain names, or otherwise = choose that their names remain unknown. It is also true that many subscribers = to TKM were not members of the Society in the past year. There are more = than one factors at work, but it may be hard to separate them. Comment 3: I think there are two factors at work here... Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point=20 membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in=20 numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there = is any correlation with age?=20 Response 3: This we have no way of doing. We suspect that there is no correlation here only because of the nature of the addresses (some are obviously younger folks because of the type of address they use. I = cannot go into more detail on this without giving examples, which I can't do). Comment 4: Were the non-renewals long-standing=20 members or only members for one year on a trial basis? Response 4: Again, I cannot establish a correlation as we do not have = all of their member numbers, just names. Comment 5: ....The Keystone has declined to include -- for the most = part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of the reasons are sound... that it = is subject to quickly becoming outdated.=20 Response 5: Actually, this is the key reason that modeling info did = not make big inroads into the Keystone, and of course, part of the reason = we chose to go digital with TKM. The modeling information can, and is, = updated as new information or corrections need to be incorporated. Comment 6: But the other argument has been "lack of interest".=20 Response 6: Actually, no one ever told me this. I did hear, "this is = the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, not Modeling Society", but those comments were more than overshadowed by those that stated that the modeling magazines were doing a fine job of it, got = many more submittals that the staff at the Keystone ever got, and that the Keystone was meant to be a definitive statement (where possible) of prototype info on the PRR. Modeling is, after all, rather open to interpretation. Our choice to go with TKM was based on our perception = that the PRRT&HS membership wanted something more, more content, more = context, more modeling, more photos, more consistent coverage, bigger photos, = more detail on techniques, more unbiased reviews.....and more modeling information dissemination. Comment 7: The TKM has clearly demonstrated that the interest is = there. So perhaps you are now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to = them for free. Response 7: Those that are watching this set of events transpire are putting a certain spin on this statement. Particularly your latter = point. Comment 8: TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to = say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society.=20 Response 8: Thanks, I am glad you feel that way about TKM. As far as = it being the "savior" of the society, I think there are far better = candidates, some of them individuals who stay behind the scenes. Your opinion of = TKM is what keeps us going. It remains to be seen if we get the kind of = support we need to keep going in this format. If the current membership = non-renewal continues much longer, it will give those unsupportive of our current = "free" provision of TKM the kind of ammunition they need to force a change. = You cannot argue with red ink. Comment 9: I'm not saying the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. = Not at all. What I am saying is that as time moves forward the membership of = the Society will be prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype = from a historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in=20 modeling. Response 9: Having been part of other societies and non-profit = endeavors, I would have to say that the PRRT&HS is extremely well managed. There = are some phenomenally talented and capable folks giving most of their free = time to the PRRT&HS. The fact is that all of the services, The Keystone, = TKM, publications, involvement with manufacturers, and the developing = archives, all come at a cost, and that the Society basically does not generate anything above that needed to maintain itself, at our previous year's membership numbers. We now face a different situation. Comment 10: Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, = but as the population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the=20 number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- = members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most=20 likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the=20 prototypic aspects that supports it. Response 10: No need, you are absolutely correct. I think everyone understands this. I think it is actually way over 90%. Comment 11: TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. Response 11: Basically true, but you yourself know that what you do = (and I mean you, Jerry) bears a cost not borne by others. That very specific = use of your resources has limited your use of those very resources on other aspects of your life. Comment 12: Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we = make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so = high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but = as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password = would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in = the=20 respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a=20 thought! Response 12: These very issues are in discussion now. =20 Morgan's comment 1: "I don't see how the TKM has anything to do with non-renewals. Is there any proof that the addition of TKM is linked to non-renewals?" Response: Yes, there are some folks that did not renew their = memberships, but chose to subscribe to TKM. Those that are watching this situation = have stated that they believe it is a case of, "why buy it when you can get = it for free." For some, this may be right. But this issue may have come = back to bite the entire group. It distresses me greatly. Thanks for your support, all. We very much appreciate it. Elden Gatwood ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:02:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I JOINED the PRRT&HS principally because of TKM. I read it in HTML as PDF is just too unwieldy to me.. Perhaps a password to access might be in order, but quarterly would be a big burden, as the "Keystone" is mailed out over a two week period, as I was told when I inquired about mine, and those whose "Keystone" was delayed in the mail or even lost would be doubly "screwed" as then they could not even access TKM. Oh, and don't put us ex-employees in the grave YET. I'll be 63 tomorrow and hope to be around a while longer. Gregg Mahlkov PRRT&HS #7418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" Cc: Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read > On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > > > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between > > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that > > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe > > to TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it > > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, > > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. > > I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of > the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. > > I think there are two factors at work here... > > 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point > membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in > numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there > is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing > members or only members for one year on a trial basis? > > 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to > include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of > the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming > outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM > has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are > now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. > > TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that > the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying > the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying > is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be > prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a > historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in > modeling. > > Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the > population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the > number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- > members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most > likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the > prototypic aspects that supports it. > > TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high > quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look > at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, > but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? > > Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock > it so you need a password to open it. The password would change > quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the > respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a > thought! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:03:49 +0000 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:08:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 01:56 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > > I hope you don't mind keeping this discussion open For the benefit of the Society, l consider this appropriate. I'll let you know if it turns otherwise. To aid everyone, everyone should show restraint and only include pertinent portions of quoted posts in your replies. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:13:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:02 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > I JOINED the PRRT&HS principally because of TKM. I read it in HTML as > PDF is > just too unwieldy to me.. Perhaps a password to access might be in > order, > but quarterly would be a big burden, as the "Keystone" is mailed out > over a > two week period, as I was told when I inquired about mine, and those > whose > "Keystone" was delayed in the mail or even lost would be doubly > "screwed" as > then they could not even access TKM. I was proposing that, for instance, the Spring Keystone might have the password for the May, June, and July issues, or something like that. PDF can be relied upon for consistent display. Various web browsers cannot. The HTML format also requires that all of the components (text and images) that make up an issue remain in the same location. With a PDF you have one file...that's it! And I think a password for access to HTML will be more likely to propagate to non-members via mailing lists, forums, and the like. > > Oh, and don't put us ex-employees in the grave YET. I'll be 63 > tomorrow and > hope to be around a while longer. I hope you'll be around for awhile also, but you are certainly one of the "younger" ex-employees. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:12:22 GMT Subject: Fw: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PennsyRRfan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-ContentStamp: 12:6:2251410402 On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe > to TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:12:22 GMT Subject: Fw: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PennsyRRfan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-ContentStamp: 12:6:2251410402 On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe > to TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:16:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:03 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I see no reason to provide TKM for free. The information far exceeds > what is available in even the best modeling magazines and is very > specifc to our needs. I would gladly subscribe to it. The society > could also request TKM donations to generate additional revenue. I > think a price of $20.00 per year in addition to the regular society > membership would be a very fair amount to pay for the quality of > material contained in the publication. I personally do not think it should be a separate membership item. Besides, that makes even more overhead for the national officers in order to track such things. What if we did this... 1) Locate the full issues of the TKM on the web behind a password protected site. "Try" the honor system and only change the password once a year. Urge members not to share it. Change it as of the calendar you so as to coincide with renewals. 2) Publish an abridged TKM publicly. Each article would cut off after the first 1-2 pages, then have a link to a membership application. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:21:29 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Thread-Index: AcQTWbAkqvVrcShsRuqDof8dnWHU0QADFptw From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Jerry Britton" , "ELDEN GATWOOD" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 19:21:30.0355 (UTC) FILETIME=[8ABF0430:01C41367] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It seems that there is an assumption that publication of the TKM on line = has resulted in a decrease in membership. Is there at all a valid = method for testing this premise? I can think of other reasons for the decline - meeting in Harrisburg so = often becomes rather stale - hopefully some rejuvenation will occur with = the convention in Cincinnati this year. =20 I think the age issue mentioned below is critical for the model railroad = hobby in general. The NMRA seems to be concerned about its declining = membership, and in another RR historical society in which I belong, the = average membership age is 58. The railroads were much more a part of our culture when we were young = then now, and this "aging" of the hobby may reflect this. A lot of young = people today focus their inside the house activities on the computer, as = opposed to that original Lionel or American Flyer train set. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 11:36 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between=20 > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that=20 > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe = > to TKM.=A0There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it = > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, = > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of=20 the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point=20 membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in=20 numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there=20 is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing=20 members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to=20 include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of=20 the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming=20 outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM=20 has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are=20 now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that=20 the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying=20 the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying=20 is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be=20 prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a=20 historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in=20 modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the=20 population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the=20 number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only --=20 members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most=20 likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the=20 prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high=20 quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look=20 at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members,=20 but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock=20 it so you need a password to open it. The password would change=20 quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the=20 respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a=20 thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:29:30 -0500 RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read

Since it is a SERVICE of the PRRT&HS, I don't = feel a separate fee (that non-members could pay) should be = imposed.  I believe only PRRT&HS should be able to access = it!

Chris Chany

------_=_NextPart_001_01C41368.A931B470-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:28:17 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PennsyRRfan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:16:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-ContentStamp: 8:4:765465571 X-MAIL-INFO:10297d29bd3cb849a5a921a5497549bd3899419958311175b971e1b975dd053df53db93df57511d89da1d828d8d94859c888e9a988c81cd9f1596808f84df16c4d689c8c8c8d68258c0d3c896c252c6d5899ed993531bccdb99d28751111 On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:03 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I see no reason to provide TKM for free. The information far exceeds > what is available in even the best modeling magazines and is very > specifc to our needs. I would gladly subscribe to it. The society > could also request TKM donations to generate additional revenue. I > think a price of $20.00 per year in addition to the regular society > membership would be a very fair amount to pay for the quality of > material contained in the publication. I personally do not think it should be a separate membership item. Besides, that makes even more overhead for the national officers in order to track such things. What if we did this... 1) Locate the full issues of the TKM on the web behind a password protected site. "Try" the honor system and only change the password once a year. Urge members not to share it. Change it as of the calendar you so as to coincide with renewals. 2) Publish an abridged TKM publicly. Each article would cut off after the first 1-2 pages, then have a link to a membership application. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:31:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:21 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > It seems that there is an assumption that publication of the TKM on > line has resulted in a decrease in membership. Is there at all a > valid method for testing this premise? I think what Elden was trying to express is that "some" people are thinking that free access to TKM is part of the reason for the decrease. This cannot be substantiated. But as a leader in the TKM effort, Elden is being proactively defensive to protect the future of TKM. If the leadership of the Society feels TKM is causing the reduction, they will kill TKM. > > I can think of other reasons for the decline - meeting in Harrisburg > so often becomes rather stale - hopefully some rejuvenation will occur > with the convention in Cincinnati this year. We'll know in a month, but I think you are wrong. I (personally) am expecting a lower than normal turnout in Cincinnati. I think a lot of people won't go due to the distance. Remember, probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the membership is within 2 hours of Philadelphia! Of the locals that I usually see at the conventions, more than half are not going this year. I am very saddened by that, but I have no control over it. I sincerely hope that attendance is "good enough", as I would love to see the Society give Chicago a try. But if Cincy fails, it ain't gonna happen! (Again, my opinion!) Camp Hill is the default site for many reasons -- lacks the "big city" costs, good transportation access, good facility, very close (short drive) for over half of the membership. Side note: I am doing the layout tours for 2005 and there will be SEVERAL new layouts... and we are considering something totally new, but more on that later! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:33:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:51:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:33 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > So that in 2 years when you get a mumble model and want to do what TKM > suggests you must also find the right unrelated keystone and get the > password. Ugh. > > I do understand the problem you're trying to solve, and I agree but I > don't like this answer. My later response suggested having a password protected site, with the password for the entire site changing once a year... if the honor system works. Otherwise, maybe quarterly. That, then, would get you into the entire archive. Otherwise, you would need to maintain a password protected list of prior "file" passwords... or the more involved approach of changing all of the file passwords periodically, which I am not recommending. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:58:15 -0500 A very valid concern. I also suspect we're not reaching some members = with our appeals (other than the renewal form in the fall issue of The = Keystone) as I think there are a lot of older members who don't have = e-mail and who are not on line. Hard to imagine, but true. Sounds like = we need another renewal form in The Keystone. As a non-profit group, = how low can we get postage on a direct mailing to these folks? 669 = people is a lot of people. Hard to imagine they feel TKM is all they = need. That's only the tip of the iceberg in terms of membership = benefits! Keep us posted and let us know how we can help. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Prr-Modeling@yahoogroups.com' ; Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Members of the PRRT&HS =20 I apologize in advance for the use of bandwidth, but I desperately = need to ask for your assistance. =20 The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society has sustained = a significant decrease in renewals this calendar year. It is very = possible that placement of the renewal form in the autumn issue of The = Keystone may have been responsible for some folks waiting for the = traditional winter mailing of renewal forms. For those folks, that = cannot find their renewal form, you may renew today at the Society's = e-Store at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html or send a = $38.00 check payable to the PRRT&HS, to The Stanleys, 558 Summit Drive, = Lewistown, PA 17044-1252. Make sure it's annotated for 2004 renewal and = includes your membership number, if you know it. =20 However, there are also some folks within the Society that strongly = believe the appearance of The Keystone Modeler is directly responsible = for this decline in renewals. The decline is so significant that it = threatens the fiscal stability of the same Society that listened to your = pleas and brought you TKM (as of March 24th there are 669 members that = have not renewed). And this all without a dues increase or subscribers = fee, no less. The PRRT&HS does not generate a profit. In fact, the = Society publishes The Keystone and The Keystone Modeler magazines, = assists manufacturer activities, does product reviews, collects and = catalogs PRR documents, and is creating a first-class accessible archive = facility in which to conduct research, entirely supported by the = members' resources.=20 =20 Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between = non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that have = failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe to = TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it will = directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, as the = Society must regroup to remain solvent. =20 For those of you that simply forgot to renew, or were waiting for your = renewal form, please renew today. For those that did not renew and were = not planning to, please reconsider. Your membership dues directly = support all of the activities and products from which you benefit, only = one of which is our (still) free modeling magazine. =20 We may have brought about our own demise, from the simple belief that = we should supply this modeling resource at no cost to you, our readers. = I hope you can prove to those that are saying that TKM is a detriment to = the Society that they are wrong. =20 Elden Gatwood Chairman, Modeling Committee. =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C41342.C4107A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
A very valid concern.  I also suspect we're = not=20 reaching some members with our appeals (other than the renewal form in = the fall=20 issue of The Keystone) as I think there are a lot of older members who = don't=20 have e-mail and who are not on line.  Hard to imagine, but = true. =20 Sounds like we need another renewal form in The Keystone.  As a = non-profit=20 group, how low can we get postage on a direct mailing to these = folks?  669=20 people is a lot of people.  Hard to imagine they feel TKM is all = they=20 need.  That's only the tip of the iceberg in terms of membership=20 benefits!
 
Keep us posted and let us know how we can=20 help.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 = 10:34=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS = help;=20 important; please read

Members of the=20 PRRT&HS

 

I apologize in advance for = the use of=20 bandwidth, but I desperately need to ask for your=20 assistance.

 

The Pennsylvania Railroad = Technical &=20 Historical Society has sustained a significant decrease in renewals = this=20 calendar year. It is very possible that placement of the renewal form = in the=20 autumn issue of The=20 Keystone may have been responsible for some folks waiting = for the=20 traditional winter mailing of renewal forms.  For those folks, that cannot = find=20 their renewal form, you may renew today at the Society's e-Store at: = http://club-e-sto= res.com/prr/prrths_store.html=20 or send a $38.00 check payable to the PRRT&HS, to The Stanleys,=20 558 Summit = Drive, Lewistown, PA 17044-1252. Make sure it's annotated for = 2004 renewal=20 and includes your membership number, if you know = it.

 

However, there are also some = folks within=20 the Society that strongly believe the appearance of The Keystone = Modeler is directly responsible for this decline in = renewals.  The decline is so = significant that it=20 threatens the fiscal stability of the same Society that listened to = your pleas=20 and brought you TKM (as of March 24th there are 669 members = that=20 have not renewed).  And = this all=20 without a dues increase or subscribers fee, no less.  The PRRT&HS does not = generate a=20 profit.  In fact, the = Society=20 publishes The=20 Keystone and The Keystone = Modeler magazines, assists manufacturer activities, does = product=20 reviews, collects and catalogs PRR documents, and is creating a = first-class=20 accessible archive facility in which to conduct research, entirely = supported=20 by the members' resources.

 

Although the jury is out on a = complete=20 correlation between non-renewals and TKM=20 subscribers, there are some folks we know that have failed to renew as = members=20 of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe to TKM.  There is also no doubt that = should=20 these folks not renew, it will directly threaten TKM, The=20 Keystone, and other Society offerings, as the Society must = regroup=20 to remain solvent.

 

For those of you that simply = forgot to=20 renew, or were waiting for your renewal form, please renew today.  For those that did not renew = and were=20 not planning to, please reconsider. =20 Your membership dues directly support all of the activities and = products from which you benefit, only one of which is our (still) free = modeling magazine.

 

We may have brought about our = own demise,=20 from the simple belief that we should supply this modeling resource at = no cost=20 to you, our readers.  I = hope you=20 can prove to those that are saying that = TKM is a=20 detriment to the Society that they are = wrong.

 

Elden=20 Gatwood

Chairman, Modeling=20 Committee.

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C41342.C4107A40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:10:46 -0500
A=20 direct mailing as Bill suggests is the way to go.  If 7 people = rejoin the=20 postage is covered at $0.37.
 
 
Chris=20 Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4136E.6C8089B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:13:57 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: New Bowser N8s Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: threebutchers@msn.com writes: > > I have heard a few good things about these cars, does anyone know if they have brake details under them or not? > I dont model HO...but the Feb MR Bowser ad states "Cal Scale AB Brakes - complete underbody detail" > Brian All, I had a call from my good friend Mark Kerrlick last night and he is going to fire off a short opinion of the Bowser N8 cabin after the weekend as he picked up three just yesterday on the way to the East Coast Model Show. But here are some thoughts... againI have not seen them it is just some things we talked about. Firt this in NOT A BUILD_UP cabin car, it is a kit! The underframe is a set of Cal Scale airbrake parts with some brass wire and a diagram... He said the did correct the handrail/grab irons... The cuppola is a separte part but fits nicely... The running boards were nicely done and are out of Delrin type plastic. The windows are molded to fit into the opens nearly flush... The two vertical anti-collision post are modled solid... read as not the Channels that they should be. THe trucks are just standrd freight trucks... What he beleives could have been better was the lettering. I will leave the rest to Mark whne he come back... Retail is $30.00 for the kit... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:30:33 -0500 Elden & Group, As I understand it from a friend, the NYO&W Society is large and growing = and doing well. Not sure how big they are compared with us. They pay = homage to a much, much smaller railroad that visited virtually no = population centers that went under in 1957, but to all accounts their = society continues to grow. Perhaps we should check their website and = communicate with them. As I understand it they're a really nice bunch = who would probably be willing to give us some ideas. Even if some of us = joined (are some of us already members?) we could find out what they're = doing and how. Just one more idea. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C41347.475D0220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Elden & Group,
 
As I understand it from a friend, the NYO&W = Society is=20 large and growing and doing well.  Not sure how big they are = compared with=20 us.  They pay homage to a much, much smaller railroad that visited=20 virtually no population centers that went under in 1957, but to all = accounts=20 their society continues to grow.  Perhaps we should check their = website and=20 communicate with them.  As I understand it they're a really nice = bunch who=20 would probably be willing to give us some ideas.  Even if some of = us joined=20 (are some of us already members?) we could find out what they're doing = and=20 how.
 
Just one more idea.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C41347.475D0220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:31:09 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 20:40:52.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1483540:01C41372] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay Elden and Jerry Now that my name came up. Why is TKM available to non-members of PRRTHS? Ditto for any and all other pubs, whether in print or digital. Everything has a cost involved with it, so payment must be made. The "free" stuff should be on PRRTHS as for "guests", just like most other groups. And only paid members of PRRTHS should have access to the pubs. Your membership number with added digits or scrambled should work for access. Example: My # is 1204. So the access could be 4210 or 120498 or something like that. Or we could just "register" with passwords. The main point is to eliminate the free TKM. Make them pay. How about if they refuse to join PRRTHS and still want TKM, have them pay the same $38.00? That ought to change their minds. LOL ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: "'Jerry Britton'" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, 26 March, 2004 12:56 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Jerry; I hope you don't mind keeping this discussion open, as you have brought up a number of important topics, as has Morgan, in his message. I will try to answer. Comment 2: But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. Response 2: This we cannot absolutely determine, because there are so many that use e-mail addresses that do not contain names, or otherwise choose that their names remain unknown. It is also true that many subscribers to TKM were not members of the Society in the past year. There are more than one factors at work, but it may be hard to separate them. MB: This is what I see as part of the problem. The determination is vague. Comment 8: TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. Response 8: Thanks, I am glad you feel that way about TKM. As far as it being the "savior" of the society, I think there are far better candidates, some of them individuals who stay behind the scenes. Your opinion of TKM is what keeps us going. It remains to be seen if we get the kind of support we need to keep going in this format. If the current membership non-renewal continues much longer, it will give those unsupportive of our current "free" provision of TKM the kind of ammunition they need to force a change. You cannot argue with red ink. MB: Total agreement. The TKM was long overdue. Even if it had been in print form (before digital technology has been perfected). Response 9: Having been part of other societies and non-profit endeavors, I would have to say that the PRRT&HS is extremely well managed. MB: Agreed again. I've seen how some other "groups" have been miss managed. Comment 12: Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a thought! Response 12: These very issues are in discussion now. MB: Again agreed. See what I wrote above. Morgan's comment 1: "I don't see how the TKM has anything to do with non-renewals. Is there any proof that the addition of TKM is linked to non-renewals?" Response: Yes, there are some folks that did not renew their memberships, but chose to subscribe to TKM. Those that are watching this situation have stated that they believe it is a case of, "why buy it when you can get it for free." For some, this may be right. But this issue may have come back to bite the entire group. It distresses me greatly. MB: Okay, so they take without payment. That's theft. Or so I think. Back to the discussions above. But - continue to make the TKM available in both formats. And as mentioned, one needs a password. And also stated elsewhere - not in the Keystone. The snail mail is too slow. I'm far from a computer expert, but there are so many web sites out there now that require registration and ID's and Passwords, that it can't be that much trouble. Is it? Jerry? Thanks for letting me have this input. FYI I am 65 yrs old. And like others, intend to be around for another 25 to 30 years. LOL Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 President, Penn Texas Chapter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:49:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 03:31 PM, PennsyNut wrote: > The main point is to eliminate the free TKM. Make them pay. How > about if > they refuse to join PRRTHS and still want TKM, have them pay the same > $38.00? That ought to change their minds. We have yet to have any MEMBERS indicate their desire to keep TKM a free publication... Anyone? If we are in agreement to a) keep TKM and to b) lock up TKM, then all we really need to discuss is the HOW? For those in the know, whoever you are, does the Society web site have the ability to have "secure realms", as they are called? Are there disk space limitations (within reason)? I don't know if the Society has its own server (doubtful), uses an ISP's server, uses a member's business server, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:00:10 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: TKM is only free because of volunteer labor...thanks guys. I for one would be happy to pay for a subscription to TKM much as I "pay" for online Medical information sites I use in my profession. Jim McDaniel 2 cents from Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rawil Ismail" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:58:52 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To continue with William Bigler's idea, the NYO&W Society website does have some "Members Only" articles online. To access them, a member contacts the Society's Membership Director and is given a username and password, which changes periodically. Society contact info is at: http://www.nyow.org/contacts.html Pete Ismail Colorado Springs, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" As I understand it from a friend, the NYO&W Society is large and growing and doing well. Not sure how big they are compared with us. They pay homage to a much, much smaller railroad that visited virtually no population centers that went under in 1957, but to all accounts their society continues to grow. Perhaps we should check their website and communicate with them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:53:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal PRRT&HS Non Renewal Problem I not sure how I received my renewal notice. However, regarding the PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included with a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine. That, folks, in my opinion, ain't smart!!! It seems to me that the best way to notify someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill. Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my renewal notice. I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as current membership! So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I asked the important person, the one who pays the bills. Sure enough, she reported that it was paid in October. Just lucky I guess. As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked at it. I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer screen and then, if I really like something, printing it. I am a modeler and do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF". My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large HO scale model railroad. I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Keystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next year or so. That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud message, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise very confused!!! Wise up people, send separate renewal notices. So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar. That's a big difference from not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop! Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now the society is paying the price! Oh, one more thought, I know you're trying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like every other organization that I belong to does?! Bob Martin PRRT&HS #5911 Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" PRRT&HS N= on Renewal Problem

I not sure how I received my renewal notice.  However, regarding th= e PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included w= ith a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine.  That, folks, in= my opinion, ain't smart!!!  It seems to me that the best way to notify= someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill= .  Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my re= newal notice.  I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly= renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as curre= nt membership!  So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I as= ked the important person, the one who pays the bills.  Sure enough, she= reported that it was paid in October.  Just lucky I guess.

As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked=20= at it.  I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer scree= n and then, if I really like something, printing it.  I am a modeler an= d do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF".=20=  My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large=20= HO scale model railroad.  I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Ke= ystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next ye= ar or so.

That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud m= essage, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise=20= very confused!!!  Wise up people, send separate renewal notices.  = So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar.  That's a big difference f= rom not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop!=20

Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now=20= the society is paying the price!  Oh, one more thought, I know you're t= rying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent= out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like ev= ery other organization that I belong to does?!

Bob Martin
PRRT&HS #5911
Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:53:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal PRRT&HS Non Renewal Problem I not sure how I received my renewal notice. However, regarding the PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included with a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine. That, folks, in my opinion, ain't smart!!! It seems to me that the best way to notify someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill. Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my renewal notice. I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as current membership! So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I asked the important person, the one who pays the bills. Sure enough, she reported that it was paid in October. Just lucky I guess. As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked at it. I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer screen and then, if I really like something, printing it. I am a modeler and do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF". My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large HO scale model railroad. I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Keystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next year or so. That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud message, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise very confused!!! Wise up people, send separate renewal notices. So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar. That's a big difference from not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop! Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now the society is paying the price! Oh, one more thought, I know you're trying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like every other organization that I belong to does?! Bob Martin PRRT&HS #5911 Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" PRRT&HS N= on Renewal Problem

I not sure how I received my renewal notice.  However, regarding th= e PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included w= ith a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine.  That, folks, in= my opinion, ain't smart!!!  It seems to me that the best way to notify= someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill= .  Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my re= newal notice.  I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly= renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as curre= nt membership!  So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I as= ked the important person, the one who pays the bills.  Sure enough, she= reported that it was paid in October.  Just lucky I guess.

As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked=20= at it.  I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer scree= n and then, if I really like something, printing it.  I am a modeler an= d do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF".=20=  My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large=20= HO scale model railroad.  I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Ke= ystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next ye= ar or so.

That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud m= essage, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise=20= very confused!!!  Wise up people, send separate renewal notices.  = So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar.  That's a big difference f= rom not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop!=20

Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now=20= the society is paying the price!  Oh, one more thought, I know you're t= rying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent= out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like ev= ery other organization that I belong to does?!

Bob Martin
PRRT&HS #5911
Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:35:23 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: William Ayers > From: Jerry Britton > Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:49:50 -0500 > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read > From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:49:50 -0500
> Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read
From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:15:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations The ? is will you bye it if so then lets STOP the complaining and do it our selves. every model Broadway has come out with I read all your - - - are trere any+++++++. how about saying thank you we have a M1a, M1b, T1, E-7 with train phones I may add. (All with sound and will work with dc or dcc how selfisf can we get? Don't forget the J-1, I'm shure you'll have some kind of BITCH about that too. Broadway I thank you! I can't afford to buy BRASS tha will run like CRAP give the basic's I'll do the rest unlike some other's. PRR-- BOB P. --part1_1eb.1c52fe09.2d963db2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" The ? is will you bye it if so then= lets STOP the complaining and do it our selves. every model Broadway has co= me out with I read all your -  -   - are trere any+++++++.&nb= sp;  how about saying thank you we have a M1a, M1b, T1, E-7 with train=20= phones I may add. (All with sound  and will work with dc or dcc how sel= fisf can we get? Don't forget the J-1, I'm shure you'll have some kind of BI= TCH about that too.
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;     Broadway I thank you!
            &nbs= p; I can't afford to buy BRASS tha will run like CRAP give the basic's I'll=20= do the rest unlike some other's.
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =           PRR-- BOB P. --part1_1eb.1c52fe09.2d963db2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:53:32 -0600 Bob, you may have hit on it. This is the first time since I joined the = society that I paid my dues late. It just suddenly occured to me that I = didn't remember writing a check. Like you, I haven't a clue how I = received any notice this year, if I did. And BTW, I wish people would quit assuming everyone is online. And not = just old people constitute the nonwired group. I also agree with Norm that the TKM is better than any modeling magazine = I have ever seen---don't give it away! My first reaction is that I = would prefer hard copy, but TKM answers one of my objections to = including modeling articles in the hard-copy Keystone: obsolescence. = Being online, it can be updated to reflect changes. Speaking as someone = who has read modeling magazines for 52 years and has less than a dozen = saved---most aren't worth saving after 10 years due to the obsolescence = factor. Several $.02 worth. Bob Zoeller Bob Martin writes:=20 I not sure how I received my renewal notice. However, regarding the = PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included = with a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine. ... Like I said, = I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my renewal notice. = ...wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent out an annual = membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like every other = organization that I belong to does?!=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C41374.6626F620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob, you may have hit on it.  This = is the=20 first time since I joined the society that I paid my dues late.  It = just=20 suddenly occured to me that I didn't remember writing a check. Like you, = I=20 haven't a clue how I received any notice this year, if I = did.
 
And BTW, I wish people would quit = assuming everyone=20 is online.  And not just old people constitute  the = nonwired=20 group.
 
I also agree with Norm that the TKM is = better than=20 any modeling magazine I have ever seen---don't give it away!  My = first=20 reaction is that I would prefer hard copy, but TKM answers one of my = objections=20 to including modeling articles in the hard-copy Keystone: =20 obsolescence.  Being online, it can be updated to reflect = changes. =20 Speaking as someone who has read modeling magazines for 52 years and has = less=20 than a dozen saved---most aren't worth saving after 10 years due to the=20 obsolescence factor.
 
Several $.02 worth.
 
Bob Zoeller
 
Bob Martin writes: 
I not sure how I = received my=20 renewal notice.  However, regarding the PRRT&HS dues notice, = I'm=20 getting the impression that it was included with a mid to late 2003 = issue of=20 the Keystone magazine. ... Like I said, I haven't got the = foggiest=20 idea of how I received my renewal notice. ...wouldn't you be solving a = bunch=20 problems if you sent out an annual membership card or at least a = confirmation=20 of renewal like every other organization that I belong to does?!=20

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C41374.6626F620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:58:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR Bob P. Evidently you don't know me or what some of us others purpose is. Exactly where did you see us complaining about a Broadway Limited model? I can't remember any. Maybe your meaning of complaining means something different than mine. I have seen plenty of posts pointing out detail problems and suggestions with regards to the models being produced by BLI or any company. I thnk this is a good thing. If it helps a comapny produce better models in the future, so be it. If not, at least we alert other modelers as to what to expect when it comes time to correct the short comings. Again, I say, evidently you don't know me. Do I sit and cry over short comings of a model. Hell No! Like you say you do, I do it myself. Be sure to check out the next TKM and you will see. And by the way, I alerted BLI of this M1b article I am doing, shared a few photos with them and they want to be notified when it becomes available in the TKM. So yes, I do believe our "complaining" as you speak of, has a purpose. As for the upcoming J1. It has already been discussed in several places of the sample model containing a handful of goofs, one rather major one. BLI has been advised of these I am sure from all directions. They have the time to fix the problems. If not, once the model is available to the public, we will be right back here letting everyone know how to correct it, if those modelers so wish to do so. Will I complain? Nope, I just go my marry way and fix it..........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:14:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read My two cents worth. I had sent this to Elwood off list but am now sharing it here. Elwood: Perhaps it is time to make membership in the PRRT&HS a condition of receiving the TKM. This could be done rather simply by 1) requiring a live name and address for each person receiving the e-mail version and 2) requiring the membership number as a password to access TKM on the website. The latter is a simple look-up in a database. The database would need to be maintained as new members are added and expired memberships purged annually. Just a suggestion. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080357280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
My two cents worth.
 
I had sent this to Elwood off list but am now sharing it here.
 
Elwood:

Perhaps it is time to make membership in the PRRT&HS= a condition of receiving the TKM.  This could be done rather simply by= 1) requiring a live name and address for each person receiving the e-mail v= ersion and 2) requiring the membership number as a password to access TKM on= the website.  The latter is a simple look-up in a database.  The=20= database would need to be maintained as new members are added and expired me= mberships purged annually.

Just a suggestion.

Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080357280-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:25:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read In a message dated 3/26/2004 3:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Otherwise, you would need to maintain a password protected list of prior "file" passwords... or the more involved approach of changing all of the file passwords periodically, which I am not recommending. Jerry, If you place a password in the link from the main page-- link takes you to password gateway which then redirects you to the protected pages if you have a proper password. You only need to change one password to protect all the subpages. There is no need to archive passwords as the one password will give you access to a page of links to all the issues of TKM. However, it is important that the pages be setup so that the TKM cannot be bookmarked and thereby by-pass the password requirement. I have passwords to several sites which will permit bookmarking and then you can get around the password. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080357906 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/26/2004 3:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pe= nnsyrr.com writes:
Otherwise, you would need to maintain a passwo= rd protected list of
prior "file" passwords... or the more involved appr= oach of changing all
of the file passwords periodically, which I am not=20= recommending.
Jerry, 
 
If you place a password in the link from the main page-- link takes you= to password gateway which then redirects you to the protected pages if you=20= have a proper password. You only need to change one password to protect all=20= the subpages. There is no need to archive passwords as the one password= will give you access to a page of links to all the issues of TKM.  &nb= sp;However, it is important that the pages be setup so that the TKM cannot b= e bookmarked and thereby by-pass the password requirement.  I have pass= words to several sites which will permit bookmarking and then you can get ar= ound the password.
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080357906-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Meyer Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:35:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRTH&S Renewal Ask a PRR Friend Time to beat the bushes. Check with other PRR enthusiasts and ask them if they have joined or renewed. If you're a member of a RR Club spread the word. Ken ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:35:05 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] PRRTH&S Renewal Ask a PRR Friend Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Time to beat the bushes. Check with other PRR enthusiasts and ask them if they have joined or renewed. If you're a member of a RR Club spread the word. Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:37:37 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gentelmen, After observing the transpirations over the last 12 or so hours I can readily agree with many of you that the announcement of the renewal anomoly in the society is something we should all be concerned with. I agree 100% with the members-only access to the TKM. The TKM online is what the 'Snapper' was pre-3/1976 a "Supplement to the Keystone". The society should maintain a database of members that can be updated regularly whereas a person can create an password encripted entity for thier own viewing of the TKM. As one of the "younger" members in the Society, I have never viewed and active PRR livery engine in regular service on the main line, but I do remember the sights, sounds and smells of 1223 under steam at Strasburg and when I was really young and naive the 1361 came to York. The big noisy thing scared me and while at some point I was amazed it was only from a distance. Granted, I grew into it, but i've taken a seed and made a nice ever-growing sappling out of my love and affiction for the PRR, both through history, modeling, and creating where I work. I've made railroading my life, and a part of that is the Pennsy. Unfortunately, there still are those who I won't mention that feel the PRRTHS is a historical society. As modelers we are fighting a one-way barter. For the prototypical modelr they possess information we have yet to know. But, as of yet we have nothing to give back. With the vast plethora of minds we have assembled we must as a whole think of how we can make this benefit all of us not just the modelers. Perhaps an TKM article on prototypical operations based on a certain area, with road names and car types. I'm only making suggestions, or as someone I know says, "I'm only one voise in a sea of many." I agree that we must do something to save our ranks of brothers united in the memory of the PRR. Best regards to all, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:33:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Marvin, the Steel industry was my first thought also. What would need to be delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] membership renewals Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:08:18 -0500 Gents; The arrival of the TKM is one of, maybe even the second most important = reason that I have stayed with the organization. I am fairly new, going = on 4 years now. I am a Lines West fanatic but even so, the organization = as a whole is well worth it! I do think the TKM should be a paid item by non members and an = extension of member benefits to paid members. I belong to several other similar orgs and each one of them includes = modeling data/info in their issues. In particular, the B&O, N&W, C&O and = AC&Y historical societies. They all sell modeling related items and = kits. When I joined here, I was surprised that the PRRT&HS didn't! I do believe the age factor has a lot to do with it....anybody ever do = a survey of the ages of this group?? Earl Myers Lines West MP94.8 ------=_NextPart_000_0141_01C41397.FD13F6F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gents;
 The arrival of the TKM is one of, = maybe even=20 the second most important reason that I have stayed with the = organization. I am=20 fairly new, going on 4 years now. I am a Lines West fanatic but even so, = the=20 organization as a whole is well worth it!
 I do think the TKM should be a = paid item by=20 non members and an extension of member benefits to paid = members.
 I belong to several other similar = orgs and=20 each one of them includes modeling data/info in their issues. In = particular, the=20 B&O, N&W, C&O and AC&Y historical societies. They all = sell=20 modeling related items and kits. When I joined here, I was surprised = that the=20 PRRT&HS didn't!
 I do believe the age factor has a = lot to do=20 with it....anybody ever do a survey of the ages of this = group??
Earl Myers
Lines West = MP94.8
------=_NextPart_000_0141_01C41397.FD13F6F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:48:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read In a message dated 3/26/04 12:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point > membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in > numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there > is any correlation with age? I think most all historical societies will suffer from this eventually. Not only employees but also the number of people who actually saw the railroad in operation declines day by day. They need to take into consideration that how many people who are born say after 1968 will have an interest in the railroad. I know that as a former president of a fallen flag historical society that your "new blood" today comes mostly from modelers. The PRRT&HS has been almost anti modeling and I think that they may be now reaping what they sowed. Todd Horton --part1_ae.53cadb89.2d96a7d3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/26/04 12:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com wr= ites:


1) Age. For years I have been s= tating online that at some point
membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in
numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there
is any correlation with age?


I think most all historical societies will suffer from this eventually. Not=20= only employees but also the number of people who actually saw the railroad i= n operation declines day by day. They need to take into consideration that h= ow many people who are born say after 1968 will have an interest in the rail= road. I know that as a former president of a fallen flag historical society=20= that your "new blood" today comes mostly from modelers. The PRRT&HS has=20= been almost anti modeling and I think that they may be now reaping what they= sowed. Todd Horton
 --part1_ae.53cadb89.2d96a7d3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:55:29 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk Digest - TKM and PRRTHS X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2,9,11,14-16 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: First lets seperate the apples from oranges. The renewal problem has nothing to do with the TKM issue. The PRRTHS is a totally seperate issue in itself. Blamming TKM is not going to solve the Societies problems. First off I think we are loosing site of why TKM was formed in the first place! It was offered free to get people interested in the Society in the first place!! You take it away and you take away the only reason why I would be interested in the Society!! So you will definantly loose my interest in the PRRTHS if it is taken away! You will also loose the potential to get future new subscribers to the PRRTHS! After all. Isn't that the reason the TKM was formed in the first place? The only people blaming TKM are the SOLE people who NEVER wanted it in the first place! Last of all is that charging for TKM is not going to make up for the Societies problems. If they are not delt with and blame put where it belongs. Then both TKM and PRRTHS will sease and be no more! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: shadow@dementia.org, Prr-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:55:58 -0500 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 26, 2004, at 10:25 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > If you place a password in the link from the main page-- link takes=20 > you to password gateway which then redirects you to the protected=20 > pages if you have a proper password. You only need to change one=20 > password to protect all the subpages.=A0There is no need to archive=20 > passwords as the one password will give you access to a page of links=20= > to all the issues of TKM.=A0 =A0However, it is important that the = pages be=20 > setup so that the TKM cannot be bookmarked and thereby by-pass the=20 > password requirement.=A0 I have passwords to several sites which will=20= > permit bookmarking and then you can get around the password. Agreed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:55:06 -0500 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 26, 2004, at 10:14 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Perhaps it is time to make membership in the PRRT&HS a condition of=20 > receiving the TKM.=A0 This could be done rather simply by 1) requiring = a=20 > live name and address for each person receiving the e-mail version and=20= > 2) requiring the membership number as a password to access TKM on the=20= > website.=A0 The latter is a simple look-up in a database.=A0 The = database=20 > would need to be maintained as new members are added and expired=20 > memberships purged annually. Rich: We're thinking alike, but technical implementation may be an=20 issue. That's why last night I asked about who is hosting the=20 Society''s site and if it can support secure realms. They may just have=20= a spot on someone's server and have absolutely no capability to add a=20 security database. I can certainly offer up disk space for TKM on my server... a site that=20= the Society maintains (not me)... including a membership lookup=20 database for access. But until someone checks to see if they can do it=20= on their existing server, there is no need to explore such an option. Most likely they will not be able to support a membership lookup=20 database unless the site resides on a server that they have physical=20 "root" access to. I doubt an ISP would allow them to set up such a=20 system -- at least not without wanting more $$$ for it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:22:37 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-17 From: jeffrey d thomas Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I know that lime is used in some aspects of steel making. I wonder if they could have been getting lime in those covered hoppers? Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:33:00 -0500 "Brian J Carlson" writes: > Marvin, the Steel industry was my first thought also. What would need > to be > delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas? > > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:43:26 -0500 Gary, If you would not have said this, I would have said it for you. It = is truly remarkable how the quality of models have improved in the past = 4-5 years and I attribute it directly to the internet which has opened = up lines of discussion between modelers and manufacturers which did not = previously exist. Keep up the great work!=20 Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Mittner=20 To: PRRTRAINS@aol.com=20 Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations PRR Bob P. Evidently you don't know me or what some of us others purpose is. Exactly where did you see us complaining about a Broadway Limited = model? I can't remember any. Maybe your meaning of complaining means = something different than mine. I have seen plenty of posts pointing out detail problems and suggestions with regards to the models being produced by BLI or any company. I thnk this is a good thing. If it helps a comapny produce better models in the future, so be it. If not, at least we = alert other modelers as to what to expect when it comes time to correct the short comings.=20 Again, I say, evidently you don't know me. Do I sit and cry over short comings of a model. Hell No! Like you say you do, I do it = myself. Be sure to check out the next TKM and you will see. And by the way, I alerted BLI of this M1b article I am doing, shared a few photos with them and they want to be notified when it becomes available in the = TKM. So yes, I do believe our "complaining" as you speak of, has a purpose. = As for the upcoming J1. It has already been discussed in several places of the sample model containing a handful of goofs, one rather major one. BLI has been advised of these I am sure from all = directions. They have the time to fix the problems. If not, once the model is available to the public, we will be right back here letting everyone know how to correct it, if those modelers so wish to do so. Will I complain? Nope, I just go my marry way and fix it..........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: = http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: = http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: = http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C413D7.923D3E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gary,
     If you would not have said this, I would = have said=20 it for you. It is truly remarkable how the quality of models have = improved=20 in the past 4-5 years and I attribute it directly to the internet which = has=20 opened up lines of discussion between modelers and manufacturers which = did not=20 previously exist. Keep up the great work!
Jerry Breon
Birdsboro, PA
----- Original Message -----
Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 = 9:58=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI = E7 Paint=20 Observations

PRR Bob P.

    Evidently you = don't know=20 me or what some of us others purpose is.
Exactly where did you see = us=20 complaining about a Broadway Limited model?
I can't remember any. = Maybe=20 your meaning of complaining means something
different than mine. I = have=20 seen plenty of posts pointing out detail
problems and suggestions = with=20 regards to the models being produced by
BLI or any company. I thnk = this is=20 a good thing. If it helps a comapny
produce better models in the = future, so=20 be it. If not, at least we alert
other modelers as to what to = expect when=20 it comes time to correct the
short comings.
    = Again, I=20 say, evidently you don't know me. Do I sit and cry over
short = comings of a=20 model. Hell No! Like you say you do, I do it myself.
Be sure to = check out=20 the next TKM and you will see. And by the way, I
alerted BLI of = this M1b=20 article I am doing, shared a few photos with
them and they want to = be=20 notified when it becomes available in the TKM.
So yes, I do believe = our=20 "complaining" as you speak of, has a purpose. =
     As=20 for the upcoming J1. It has already been discussed in = several
places of the=20 sample model containing a handful of goofs, one rather
major one. = BLI has=20 been advised of these I am sure from all directions.
They have the = time to=20 fix the problems. If not, once the model is
available to the = public, we=20 will be right back here letting everyone
know how to correct = it,  if=20 those modelers so wish to do so. Will I
complain? Nope, I just go = my marry=20 way and fix it..........Gary





Come visit my PRR=20 Pages:  Photos, Models, Historical Items and =20 Art
Work!

PRR K4s Loco Pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/= film/prrpics/

PRR=20 G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.:

http:/= /www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html

and......<= BR>
PRR=20 Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models:

http://www.= angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


----------------= -------------------------------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C413D7.923D3E00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:03:38 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:53:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2004 15:53:14.0474 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D08A4A0:01C41413] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? FYI- I am not interested in this item but it may be of interest to others on the list. CAST METAL PENNSY STEAM ENGINE SHELLW/BRASS Item number: 3184438640 I asked the seller a question about length and this is the reply. The shell is 6.1" from the smoke box front to the cab sidewall. By the way the smokebox front is a brass casting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184438640 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:53:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2004 15:53:14.0474 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D08A4A0:01C41413] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? FYI- I am not interested in this item but it may be of interest to others on the list. CAST METAL PENNSY STEAM ENGINE SHELLW/BRASS Item number: 3184438640 I asked the seller a question about length and this is the reply. The shell is 6.1" from the smoke box front to the cab sidewall. By the way the smokebox front is a brass casting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184438640 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Membership Renewals Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:59:29 -0500 After sleeping on our renewal problem, I wonder whether it might not be = simpler than we're making it. I woke up this morning with the horrible = thought that I might be one of the delinquent folks - I remembered = renewing through the e-store, but it was quite a long time ago - was it = for '03 or '04? Fortunately I saved the confirmation e-mail notice and = finally found it - I'm good for '04. The notice in the fall Keystone got us a bunch of renewals, but = certainly not nearly all or enough. Did we send a second notice/flyer = in the winter Keystone? See the problem? I honestly don't remember = when/whether I got the notices or even when/whether I renewed without = looking it up. So, maybe we need to send notices in two or three successive Keystones, = and at some point send direct mailings/bills to those still delinquent. = I suspect that some are just busy and forgot or missed or misplaced the = notice. =20 I'm beginning to think the problem may have very little to do with TKM. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C413F2.F55F66A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
After sleeping on our renewal problem, I wonder = whether it=20 might not be simpler than we're making it.  I woke up this morning = with the=20 horrible thought that I might be one of the delinquent folks - I = remembered=20 renewing through the e-store, but it was quite a long time ago - was it = for '03=20 or '04?  Fortunately I saved the confirmation e-mail notice and = finally=20 found it - I'm good for '04.
 
The notice in the fall Keystone got us a bunch = of=20 renewals, but certainly not nearly all or enough.  Did we send a = second=20 notice/flyer in the winter Keystone?  See the problem?  I = honestly=20 don't remember when/whether I got the notices or even when/whether I = renewed=20 without looking it up.
 
So, maybe we need to send notices in two or = three=20 successive Keystones, and at some point send direct mailings/bills to = those=20 still delinquent.  I suspect that some are just busy and forgot or = missed=20 or misplaced the notice. 
 
I'm beginning to think the problem may have very = little to=20 do with TKM.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C413F2.F55F66A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet Part Deaux Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:59:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Day 2 at the Railroad Prototype Modelers Meet. More clinics going on = today I have including some of the weathering presenter's models in this photo. = with the final one being a weathering clinic I am looking forward to seeing. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RPM_Meet.jpg =20 I have found that I really like this meet. It is very low key with the emphasis being showing or your models and sharing how you completed it. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:43:40 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2004 22:44:43.0374 (UTC) FILETIME=[18C3D0E0:01C4144D] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello All First, my comment on TKM may have been mistaken. At this time, TKM is free, and open on the PRRTHS web site. If we can "fix" the PRRTHS site so that a password is required, then my idea holds true. If we make the TKM a pay to see, then, that's what I meant about charging $38.00 a year to access the TKM. But I am not a computer expert. I don't know how feasible either is. I am just throwing out some ideas. Personally, being a very frugal person, I would like to keep the TKM free and have a password to access it. Just as long as I stay a paid up PRRTHS member. But on the other hand, I have no objection to sending in an extra donation to the PRRTHS to help keep it solvent. 669 non-renewals is not a good thing. And I assume (I know, be carefull here) that the Society needs all the financial help it can get. (669 × $38 = $25,422) That's a chunk of money. More than a lot of vehicles on the market. (Sorry, I just had to say that. LOL ) Jerry said > We have yet to have any MEMBERS indicate their desire to keep TKM a free publication... Anyone? > If we are in agreement to a) keep TKM and to b) lock up TKM, then all we really need to discuss is the HOW? MB: As I said above, I do want it free. But, I also think some donations are in order. For those who download the TKM religiously and use it daily, etc. should be glad to send in a donation. Jerry said > For those in the know, whoever you are, does the Society web site have the ability to have "secure realms", as they are called? Are there disk space limitations (within reason)? I don't know if the Society has its own server (doubtful), uses an ISP's server, uses a member's business server, etc. MB: This is where the computer experts come in. I know of many web sites where they are partial unsecure until you "sign in". Is this feasible for the PRRTHS? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:59:07 -0600 Joe, I agree very much with all your other statements. The following = one may also be true, but be patient :-). It has taken this long to get = any significant coverage of a locomotive built after 1928, steam or = diesel. The all F-unit issue is coming now. T1s and Fs within a year. = Can J's, Q's, E's, other first generation, and second generation be far = behind?=20 I believe that the lack of post-WWII motive power coverage, not lack of = modeling articles, is what I see significantly different between our = great historical society and those of other railroads societies = publications. That appears to be changing. But I hope I don't have to = mention that the Keystone is dependent on authors. The same is true of = TKM. I am grateful for the contributions of all the authors over the = last 30 years or so I have been reading the Keystone and now the TKM. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Witcofsky=20 It is possible that the decline in membership co-incides with the = content of recent Keystones, which IMHO has been less appealing than in = the past. FWIW, the recent issue contained an extensively researched = dissertation on the T1. I did not read it because I'm not into steam. = More recent PRR i.e. 1960 -1968 which correlates to when I rode PRR = passenger trains, observed PRR freight and yard trains, and eventually = hired into engine service is generally not covered. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4141C.D13A1160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Joe, I agree very much with all your = other=20 statements.  The following one may also be true, but be patient = :-). =20 It has taken this long to get any significant coverage of a locomotive = built=20 after 1928, steam or diesel.  The all F-unit issue is coming = now.  T1s=20 and Fs within a year. Can J's, Q's, E's, other first generation, and = second=20 generation be far behind?
 
I believe that the lack of post-WWII = motive power=20 coverage, not lack of modeling articles, is what I see significantly = different=20 between our great historical society and those of other railroads = societies=20 publications.  That appears to be changing.  But I hope I = don't=20 have to mention that the Keystone is dependent on authors.  The = same is=20 true of TKM.  I am grateful for the contributions of all the = authors over=20 the last 30 years or so I have been reading the Keystone and now the=20 TKM.
 
Bob Zoeller
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Joe=20 Witcofsky
It is possible that the = decline in=20 membership co-incides with the content of recent Keystones, which IMHO = has=20 been less appealing than in the past. FWIW, the recent issue contained = an=20 extensively researched dissertation on the T1. I did not read it = because I=92m=20 not into steam. More recent PRR i.e. 1960 -1968 which correlates to = when I=20 rode PRR passenger trains, observed PRR freight and yard trains, and=20 eventually hired into engine service is generally not covered.=20
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4141C.D13A1160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:47:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. In a message dated 3/27/2004 12:46:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, brian@net.bluemoon.net writes: Marvin, the Steel industry was my first thought also. What would need to be delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas? Considering the location of Kenny, one must also consider the Hercules chemical facilities, and GM's Fisher body plant. Don't forget these are empties being returned to Kenny, so we need to look at the commodities being shipped out not received. Steel by-products, chemical products etc. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080431246 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/27/2004 12:46:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, brian@n= et.bluemoon.net writes:
Marvin, the Steel industry was my first though= t also. What would need to be
delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas?
Considering the location of Kenny, one must also consider the Hercules=20= chemical facilities, and GM's Fisher body plant.  Don't forget these ar= e empties being returned to Kenny, so we need to look at the commodities bei= ng shipped out not received.  Steel by-products, chemical products etc.=
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080431246-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:24:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: After thinking about it for awhile, I think going back to direct mailing renewals might be a better idea. I, like many others missed the renewal form in the Keystone, and just renewed this month through E-stores. Is this the first time renewal forms have been in the magazine? Since I have been in the society since the mid 1990's I think all others have been direct mailing. Since TKM has only been around for a few months, I have a hard time imagining that people would drop a great historical magazine, and just take a free modeling supplement. Correlating TKM to a membership drop seems a stretch at best and downright reactionary at worst. I also agree with many others in making TKM available to only those in the society, whether through a password protected or some other means. Like some others have said, offer a free issue of TKM to the public to get them interested, maybe giving free access to one issue every few years. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:58:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <1FFBE472-7F67-11D8-A137-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: <39371A82-806C-11D8-A5E1-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [151.197.214.230] at Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:57:28 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 03:49 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > We have yet to have any MEMBERS indicate their desire to keep TKM a > free publication... Anyone? Jerry, Yes. I would like to see the TKM remain a free publication. Normally I'm just a cheap SOB, but that's not the case here. I have been a Society member since 1986, and I have no plans of dropping my Society membership. For the past several years I have included an extra check in my renewal to help the Archives. A scan of the Discussion Web will reveal that I offered to add to that check to help the TKM too, but I'll go on record as saying that I think it is great that the mighty PRR, through it's Historical Society, is willing to help, free of charge, anyone who desires a more accurate rendition of the PRR, be it one freight car that came through in interchange, or an entire layout. (How's that for a run-on sentence!) If the powers that be choose to make TKM a subscription thing I'll pay. It's too good to loose, but I think it would be a bonus if it could stay free. Would it be beneficial to contact the members who have not renewed and ask why they haven't reupped? As for the Convention, I'm betting the turnout is low, but I'm planning to drive all the way to Cincinnati form Bethlehem, PA! Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Craig Williams" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:03:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <39371A82-806C-11D8-A5E1-000393A994E0@verizon.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I really like TKM and all the other information provided free on the web. I am a member of the PRRT&HS and pay my dues every year with the understanding that I'm going to be getting some issues (however many I don't care) of the best train publication in the world. I can't imagine why everyone with even a passing interest in the PRR doesn't want to become a member just for the quality of the Keystone alone. I like TKM because it's all about modeling. I look to the printed Keystone to provide me with prototype information for the most part. TKM fills the void as it relates to modeling in a way I think is great. If the PRRT&HS needs a couple of extra bucks from me to keep TKM going I'll be happy to pony up. After all, the people who give all these great tools can't always do it for free. I'm afraid if you try to make access to complex you'll end up with people downloading the information and sending it on to their buddies who won't pay. I really need to keep a copy on my computer because I might want to print the information or refer to it at a later date and don't want to trust to my being able to remember the url. Therefore, I'd suggest at least trying to appeal to the membership that's interested in TKM for a specific donation and see what happens. But I'd hate to see a good thing get all messed up over money. Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:14:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lighted numberboard operation The GG1 locos had separate switches for the headlights, marker lights and the number boards. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080450876 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
The GG1 locos had separate switches for the headlights, marker lights a= nd the number boards.
 

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080450876-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:19:14 EST Subject: [PRR] MP45 Cab Signals While back in God's Country (Pennsylvania), a friend showed me a cab signal from an MP45 that had operated in the Philly area. The signal box showed five aspects. From top to bottom the aspects were Clear, Restricted, Clear, Restricted the an aspect with only two white dots that were on a diagonal line that was opposite from the Restricted aspect. Atop this cab signal box was red light. Can anyone explain how these aspects were interpreted Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080451154 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
While back in God's Country (Pennsylvania),  a friend showed me a=20= cab signal from an MP45 that had operated in the Philly area.  The sign= al box showed five aspects.  From top to bottom the aspects were Clear,= Restricted, Clear, Restricted the an aspect with only two white dots that w= ere on a diagonal line that was opposite from the Restricted aspect.  A= top this cab signal box was red light.
 
Can anyone explain how these aspects were interpreted
 

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080451154-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:13:25 GMT Subject: [PRR] Membership suggestions From: Dominic Mazoch From: "E. Mike" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP45 Cab Signals Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:34:04 +0000 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:13:03 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! (was read this...) All...=20 First of all I think it is very important we keep these issues crossposted s= o=20 all views can be shared with all concerned. This could get way out of contro= l=20 and we actually could have no FREE TKM. That would be the death of this trul= y=20 innovative ON-LINE Magazine...=20 First let me remind everyone band width is cheap. I have a 100 meg site that= =20 I seldom even mess with and it is totally free. =20 To the best of my recollection The Keystone Modeler was never intended to be= =20 anything less than free. As a good friend of mine Joe Tucker puts it..."bait= =20 for trolling for new members..."=20 If in fact the current BOD believes that the drop in membership is attribute= d=20 to the TKM. If this can be proven then show me don't tell me, otherwise,=20 "don't fix what ain't broke." I think in fact that the TMK has drawn in mem= bers=20 not alienated them, but the BOD has done more than it's share to alienate=20 members in the past and I would imagine in the near future. Sit back, relax=20= and let=20 us do our jobs.=20 Some say there is cost attributed to everything. I say what does the TKM cos= t=20 the society, I am a member I should have the right to know. Band width is=20 cheap advertising. So now they say we should take TKM and hide it from "the=20 others" and save it just for us ... I say you are NUTZ! It has been and shou= ld=20 continue to be to achieve one goal attract new members from the modeling com= munity=20 ... read as FREE! Ask Garrett Rea why he joined the society...? Let me say this, most of the "greedy bunch" haven't contributed to TKM ...=20 Now they would like to control it. To that I say ... I feel it is my preroga= tive=20 to where and how I donate my time... If you take it away you might see a=20 greater drop in membership if you choose to alienate the modeling community.= .. We=20 have accomplished a lot of good things since we started and many don't reali= ze=20 what those accomplishments have been. We have probably made some judgmental=20 errors and can think of a few. I will address them with the modeling committ= ee=20 but not in this forum. What we have done is attracted the attention of other= s=20 and I think that in the future we shall see others follow our lead. Count on= =20 it!=20 Many off you likely don't know the history behind HYPERSCALE.COM but they=20 took a similar direction to what the BOD and the "greedy bunch" have purpose= d by=20 making TKM a PAY PER VIEW site... Let me tell you it will quickly implode as= =20 did Hyperscale. But Hyperscale is back and free, it now has sponsors that he= lp=20 defray the cost, this might be an option. But hidden behind passwords in not= =20 an option. People you are playing right into their hands. KEEP THE POLITICS=20= OUT=20 OF TKM, let those whom are willing to donate their time in this forward=20 thinking endeavor and enjoy what we do and allow us to share it with all mod= elers=20 and we will bring you new members.=20 If the PRRT&HS BOD needs members then it needs a membership drive. I ask you= ,=20 where was the members of the BOD in Cocoa Beach, do they think modelers don'= t=20 spend money on historical societies? This BOD is like a brand new major=20 league team of baseball players with new uniforms, new bats, gloves and they= =20 forgot one thing ... the BALLS! If we need renewals, takes steps to correct=20= the=20 renewal policies that stumbled with this year. Cutting cost by putting them=20= in=20 the KEYSTONE was a blunder. Like stepping over a dollar to pick up a penny.=20= The=20 only reason I remembered to bring my membership up to date was due to a=20 special email notice from our President Al Buchan.=20 I assure you the modeling committee will address some of the issue that are=20 transparent to you amongst ourselves. I will address them privately with th= ose=20 who need to know my views of our errors and will evolve.=20 Now I am a big boy and take your best shots because you only serve to hurt=20 yourselves if you play into their hands. But remember I am only standing up=20= for=20 you all... And don't believe all that the "Good Old Boys" tell you.=20 MY Views and more than 2=A2 worth... Greg Martin/RATSO Columnist, Modeling Author, PRRT&HS member (current), ASSHOLE, BIG MOUTH and trouble maker... Banned by the NMRA PSR Div. for standing up to them...=20 AKA RATSO call me RATSO...=20 --part1_c3.3fb2caa9.2d97f11f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" All...

First of all I think it is very important we keep these issues crossposted s= o all views can be shared with all concerned. This could get way out of cont= rol and we actually could have no FREE TKM. That would be the death of this=20= truly innovative ON-LINE Magazine...

First let me remind everyone band width is cheap. I have a 100 meg site that= I seldom even mess with and it is totally free. 

To the best of my recollection The Keystone Modeler was never intended to be= anything less than free. As a good friend of mine Joe Tucker puts it..."bai= t for trolling for new members..."

If in fact the current BOD believes that the drop in membership is attribute= d to the TKM. If this can be proven then show me don't tell me, otherwise, "= don't fix what ain't broke."  I think in fact that the TMK has drawn in= members not alienated them, but the BOD has done more than it's share to al= ienate members in the past and I would imagine in the near future. Sit back,= relax and let us do our jobs.

Some say there is cost attributed to everything. I say what does the TKM cos= t the society, I am a member I should have the right to know. Band width is=20= cheap advertising. So now they say we should take TKM and hide it from "the=20= others" and save it just for us ... I say you are NUTZ! It has been and shou= ld continue to be to achieve one goal attract new members from the modeling=20= community ... read as FREE! Ask Garrett Rea why he joined the society...?
Let me say this, most of the "greedy bunch" haven't contributed to TKM ... N= ow they would like to control it. To that I say ... I feel it is my prero= gative to where and how I donate my time... If you take it away you might se= e a greater drop in membership if you choose to alienate the modeling commun= ity... We have accomplished a lot of good things since we started and ma= ny don't realize what those accomplishments have been. We have probably made= some judgmental errors and can think of a few. I will address them with the= modeling committee but not in this forum. What we have done is attracted th= e attention of others and I think that in the future we shall see others fol= low our lead. Count on it!

Many off you likely don't know the history behind HYPERSCALE.COM but they to= ok a similar direction to what the BOD and the "greedy bunch" have purposed=20= by making TKM a PAY PER VIEW site... Let me tell you it will quickly=20= implode as did Hyperscale. But Hyperscale is back and free, it now has spons= ors that help defray the cost, this might be an option. But hidden behind pa= sswords in not an option. People you are playing right into their hands. = KEEP THE POLITICS OUT OF TKM, let those whom are willing to donate their= time in this forward thinking endeavor and enjoy what we do and allow us to= share it with all modelers and we will bring you new members.

If the PRRT&HS BOD needs members then it needs a membership drive. I ask= you, where was the members of the BOD in Cocoa Beach, do they think modeler= s don't spend money on historical societies?  This BOD is like a brand=20= new major league team of baseball players with new uniforms, new bats, glove= s and they forgot one thing ... the BALLS! If we need renewals, takes steps=20= to correct the renewal policies that stumbled with this year. Cutting cost b= y putting them in the KEYSTONE was a blunder. Like stepping over a dollar to= pick up a penny. The only reason I remembered to bring my membership up to=20= date was due to a special email notice from our President Al Buchan.

I assure you the modeling committee will address some of the issue that are=20= transparent to you amongst ourselves.  I will address them privately wi= th those who need to know my views of our errors and will evolve.

Now I am a big boy and take your best shots because you only serve to hurt y= ourselves if you play into their hands. But remember I am only standing up f= or you all... And don't believe all that the "Good Old Boys" tell you.

MY Views and more than 2=A2 worth...

Greg Martin/RATSO
Columnist, Modeling Author,
PRRT&HS member (current), ASSHOLE, BIG MOUTH and trouble maker...
Banned by the NMRA PSR Div. for standing up to them...
AKA RATSO call me RATSO... --part1_c3.3fb2caa9.2d97f11f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:53:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! (was read this...) Thank you for the TKM the best thig that ever happend to model railroading. Long live the PRR. --part1_d2.89bfb92.2d9816b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Thank you for the TKM the best thig= that ever happend to model railroading. Long live the PRR. --part1_d2.89bfb92.2d9816b6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:15:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List members, Has the idea of combining the Keystone and the Keystone Modeler ever been discussed? Just curious. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:13:18 -0500 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 28, 2004, at 12:15 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Has the idea of combining the Keystone and the Keystone Modeler > ever been discussed? Just curious. I don't think now is the time... The TKM is currently monthly, and quite a few pages. The Keystone could never support that influx of material. Over time, I suspect material for TKM will decline to a level that may be conducive to merger, but right now TKM is enjoying a wave of material from pent up interest. Keep TKM "as is", for now, as far as content is concerned. I'd have to look, but does TKM include a membership application? It should, and it should be near the FRONT of each issue... perhaps right after the table of contents. In the mean time, the Society should EXPEDITE a separate mailing to all of the non-renewees. I'd further suggest that they go so far as to provide a check box for "why they didn't renew previously"... X Didn't see the original renewal form inside The Keysone X Other _________________ Maybe we can "learn" from this situation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Mackintosh" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:03:21 -0500 Group - =20 I concur with many of the PRR-Talk Digest members that renewal notices should be a separate mailing; like other bills we receive. I was = reminded to renew last year, and renewed on-line, only because of a notice in one = of the PRRT&HS Newsletter e-mails - I don't recall seeing a notice in = Keystone. =20 I also concur with many that the TKM should be available to members only = and accessed via a password-protected Web site area. It could also be sold separately as a source of additional revenue. It is a terrific = publication that is way too good to be given away free of cost. I download and = print the PDF version on my color printer and keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference.=20 ____________________ Don Mackintosh PRRT&HS member 5934 16499 Hayes Lane Woodbridge, VA 22191 703.730.0748=20 donmack@comcast.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C414A3.8889E620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Group –

 

I concur with many of the PRR-Talk Digest members = that renewal notices should be a separate mailing; like other bills we receive.  I was reminded to renew last year, and renewed on-line, = only because of a notice in one of the PRRT&HS Newsletter e-mails – = I don’t recall seeing a notice in Keystone. 

 

I also concur with many that the TKM should be = available to members only and accessed via a password-protected Web site area.  = It could also be sold separately as a source of additional revenue.  = It is a terrific publication that is way too good to be given away free of = cost.  I download and print the PDF version on my color printer and keep it in = a 3-ring binder for reference. 

______________= ______

Don Mackintosh

PRRT&HS member 5934
16499 Hayes Lane
Woodbridge, = VA  = 22191
703.730.0748
donmack@comcast.net=

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C414A3.8889E620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:27:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Have been watching this discussion. Agree that TKM should be stand-alone. For once got my renewal in on time. Also agree that you really need more than one reminder in more than one place. How many reminders do you get from the model press, even when your subscription is not expiring. I have had similar problems with participation at work. We run a very active training function for our members and we publish a quarterly newsletter that requires nagging to get input. I also serve or have served on many community boards and committees and you have to keep people's attention, or it goes elsewhere. The condition of the economy at the time may also have been a factor. There will always be attrition from death, illness, changing interests, etc. But several gentle reminders keep the issue in front of the member. I think that the time, effort and money should be put into contacting the non-renews as suggested by Jerry. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:13 AM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger On Mar 28, 2004, at 12:15 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Has the idea of combining the Keystone and the Keystone Modeler > ever been discussed? Just curious. I don't think now is the time... The TKM is currently monthly, and quite a few pages. The Keystone could never support that influx of material. Over time, I suspect material for TKM will decline to a level that may be conducive to merger, but right now TKM is enjoying a wave of material from pent up interest. Keep TKM "as is", for now, as far as content is concerned. I'd have to look, but does TKM include a membership application? It should, and it should be near the FRONT of each issue... perhaps right after the table of contents. In the mean time, the Society should EXPEDITE a separate mailing to all of the non-renewees. I'd further suggest that they go so far as to provide a check box for "why they didn't renew previously"... X Didn't see the original renewal form inside The Keysone X Other _________________ Maybe we can "learn" from this situation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brent Holt" Subject: [PRR] New member/Photos and info for website Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:21:20 -0500 I am a new member of the society and this e-mail list.=20 I have several train related web sites and am looking for material for = my Shortlines of Southern Indiana site. http://www.trainweb.org/indianashortlines/ It covers the Louisville & Indiana RR ,Southern Indiana RR, MG Rail, = Paducah & Louisville, Indiana Railroad and Indiana Southern RR. (Mainly = the L&I) The L&I is ex-Pennsy and runs between Louisville and Indianapolis. I = have been searching for years for photos of PRR, PC, and Conrail = operations on the line, with little success. Does anyone know of a = source for this that would allow their photos to be posted on the site? = I would also like info on operations of the previous owners. Thanks, Brent=20 Jeffersonville, IN ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C414B6.CBB09FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I am a new member of the society and = this e-mail=20 list.
I have several train related web sites = and am=20 looking for material for my Shortlines of Southern Indiana = site.
http://www.trainweb.o= rg/indianashortlines/
It covers the Louisville & Indiana = RR ,Southern=20 Indiana RR, MG Rail, Paducah & Louisville, Indiana Railroad and = Indiana=20 Southern RR. (Mainly the L&I)
The L&I is ex-Pennsy and runs = between=20 Louisville and Indianapolis. I have been searching for years for photos = of PRR,=20 PC, and Conrail operations on the line, with little success. Does anyone = know of=20 a source for this that would allow their photos to be posted on the = site? I=20 would also like info on operations of the previous owners.
 
Thanks,
 
Brent
Jeffersonville, = IN
------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C414B6.CBB09FD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:27:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I'd have to look, but does TKM include a membership application? It should, > and it should be near the FRONT of each issue ... perhaps right after the > table of contents. Jerry and all, There is no membership application and this is the fault of the editorial committee. But we are growing and we are learning but we get better every time they publish. But let's keep it FREE and simple and growing. Greg Martin AKA... RATSO --part1_53.7f84bc8.2d98570b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" jerry@pennsyrr.com wr= ites:


I'd have to look, but does TKM=20= include a membership application? It should, and it should be near the FRONT= of each issue ... perhaps right after the table of contents.

Jerry and all,

There is no membership application and this is the fault of the editorial co= mmittee. But we are growing and we are learning but we get better every time= they publish. But let's keep it FREE and simple and growing.

Greg Martin AKA... RATSO --part1_53.7f84bc8.2d98570b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:39:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read donmack@comcast.net writes: > also concur with many that the TKM should be available to members only and > accessed via a password-protected Web site area. It could also be sold > separately as a source of additional revenue. It is a terrific publication that > is way too good to be given away free of cost. I download and print the PDF > version on my color printer and keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference. > > ____________________ > > Don Mackintosh > Once again following this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL of "greedy bunch." This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the death of one of the best ideas to hit this society since its inception. What makes any of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the TKM that we should cut short it's progress before it's goals have been reached. Someone tell me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and then what does the KEYSTONE cost and what are the budget overruns with that ... read as red ink! KEEP TMK FREE ... if it's not broke don't fix it. Greg Martin Greg --part1_1e9.1c6dce77.2d9859c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" donmack@comcast.net w= rites:


also concur with many that the= TKM should be available to members only and accessed via a password-protect= ed Web site area.  It could also be sold separately as a source of addi= tional revenue.  It is a terrific publication that is way too good to b= e given away free of cost.  I download and print the PDF version on my=20= color printer and keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference.

____________________

Don Mackintosh
Once again following this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL of "gre= edy bunch."

This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the death of one of= the best ideas to hit this society since its inception.  What makes an= y of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the TKM that we sh= ould cut short it's progress before it's goals have been reached. Someone te= ll me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and then what does the KEYST= ONE cost and what are the budget overruns with that ... read as red ink!
KEEP TMK FREE ...  if it's not broke don't fix it.

Greg Martin

Greg
--part1_1e9.1c6dce77.2d9859c2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:09:58 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - TKM X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I believe that it should stay as is. It is a great source of information far better than anything else. I believe it can be used to GET more membership by getting new people involved in the PRRTHS. If you restrict it to only current members than how are you going to attract new membership? John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:28:16 -0500 Greg and list, Although I am a former employee of the PRR and have modeled it roughly = since its merger with the NYC, this is the first year I have joined the = PRRT&HS. Perhaps a little background as to the "why" of my decision to = finally join might add a little light to this discussion. Previously, I didn't belong because I have lived in the Florida = Panhandle fo the past 23 years, had never seen a "Keystone" and felt = that the PRRT&HS was a Philadelphia and environs oriented society that = had little to offer a person living over 1000 miles from that area. After having been made to feel unwelcome at the PRRT&HS website, I = hadn't visited in in a couple of years until someone on PRR-Talk = mentioned TKM. So I looked at the first few issues and was extremely = impressed. I then met some of you, including the President, AL Buchan, = at Cocoa Beach and joined as soon as I returned home. So, TKM got at least one new member, me. I must say I agree with Greg = Martin that TKM is an excellent inducement to get more members, not = anything that will decrease membership.. After all, this information = wasn't offered in the "keystone" before, was it? All this clamoring to charge for TKM or restrict access goes back to my = original reason for not joining sooner - the attitude of some of the = membership that they are an exclusive club and new members are not = welcome, even if they are former employees. I also read an unfair accusation about the PRRT&HS BOD not being present = at Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan don't count? PRR = was well represented by in models and clinics. Of couse, the N scale = ones were mine.:<) Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but this is the sort of thing that = can do real damage to an organization. Gregg Mahlkov #7418 And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and a 56K modem, so = PDF files are too slow for me. ------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C414C0.259032A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Greg and list,
 
Although I am a former employee of the PRR and have = modeled it=20 roughly since its merger with the NYC, this is the first year I have = joined the=20 PRRT&HS. Perhaps a little background as to the "why" of my decision = to=20 finally join might add a little light to this discussion.
 
Previously, I didn't belong because I have lived in = the=20 Florida Panhandle fo the past 23 years, had never seen a "Keystone" and = felt=20 that the PRRT&HS was a Philadelphia and environs oriented society = that had=20 little to offer a person living over 1000 miles from that = area.
 
After having been made to feel unwelcome at the = PRRT&HS=20 website, I hadn't visited in in a couple of years until someone on = PRR-Talk=20 mentioned TKM. So I looked at the first few issues and was extremely = impressed.=20 I then met some of you, including the President, AL Buchan, at Cocoa = Beach and=20 joined as soon as I returned home.
 
So, TKM got at least one new member, me. I must say = I agree=20 with Greg Martin that TKM is an excellent inducement to get = more=20 members, not anything that will decrease membership.. After all, this=20 information wasn't offered in the "keystone" before, was = it?
 
All this clamoring to charge for TKM or restrict = access goes=20 back to my original reason for not joining sooner - the attitude of some = of the=20 membership that they are an exclusive club and new members are not = welcome, even=20 if they are former employees.
 
I also read an unfair accusation about the = PRRT&HS BOD not=20 being present at Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan = don't count?=20 PRR was well represented by in models and clinics. Of couse, the N scale = ones=20 were mine.:<)
 
Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but this is the = sort of=20 thing that can do real damage to an organization.
 
Gregg Mahlkov #7418
 
And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and = a=20 56K  modem, so PDF files are too slow for = me.
------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C414C0.259032A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:47:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - TKM John Bless you for being the visionary that the rest of the TMK staff was/is... Especially, Al Buchan! > I believe that it should stay as is. It is a great source of information > far better than anything else. I believe it can be used to GET more membership > by getting new people involved in the PRRTHS. If you restrict it to only > current members than how are you going to attract new membership? > John Caples Keeping the word out there with as many members of the modeling community as possible builds credibility and respect, enough so much so that after one reads our little magazine that they believe it is time to join and see what the rest of the society is all about... If we play our cards correctly we will keep them on forever. RATSO/AKA Greg Martin --part1_ae.53e5c362.2d9869c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" John

Bless you for being the visionary that the rest of the TMK staff was/is... E= specially, Al Buchan!

I believe that it should stay a= s is. It is a great source of information far better than anything else. I b= elieve it can be used to GET more membership by getting new people involved=20= in the PRRTHS. If you restrict it to only current members than how are you g= oing to attract new membership?
John Caples


Keeping the word out there with as many members of the modeling community as= possible builds credibility and respect, enough so much so that after one r= eads our little magazine that they believe it is time to join and see what t= he rest of the society is all about... If we play our cards correctly we wil= l keep them on forever.

RATSO/AKA Greg Martin --part1_ae.53e5c362.2d9869c4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:59:13 -0500 From: Phil Balles Subject: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Regards Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:59:13 -0500 From: Phil Balles Subject: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Regards Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:55:49 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Re: TKM From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:17:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Greg Mahlkov writes: > After having been made to feel unwelcome at the PRRT&HS website, I hadn't > visited in a couple of years until someone on PRR-Talk mentioned TKM. So I > looked at the first few issues and was extremely impressed. I then met some of > you, including the President, AL Buchan, at Cocoa Beach and joined as soon as > I returned home. A great place to meet fellow modelers and we enjoyed the extra sun you supplied us... The seeds that Al apparently planted now have began to grow. > So, TKM got at least one new member, me. I must say I agree with Greg > Martin that TKM is an excellent inducement to get more members, not anything that > will decrease membership... After all, this information wasn't offered in the > "keystone" before, was it? And Greg in actuality you are not alone as the whole concept made me a member... No, this was all new material which amassed quickly and Al has a good backlog with more coming... > All this clamoring to charge for TKM or restrict access goes back to my > original reason for not joining sooner - the attitude of some of the membership > that they are an exclusive club and new members are not welcome, even if they > are former employees. > > I also read an unfair accusation about the PRRT&HS BOD not being present at > Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan don't count? PRR was well > represented by in models and clinics. Of course, the N scale ones were mine.:< > ) Well, in fact they do count but isn't there more folks involved here that could have made the journey. I am sure that Tom Madden would have liked to meet up with Chuck Bardone. It would just allow more folks to rotate at table that deals just with the PRRT&HS as we will have next year. Bruce and I will man it but it would be nice to have some relief at some point. I was hoping that Al could have focused on more "other business" in Cocoa Beach that involved the manufacturers. > Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but this is the sort of thing that can > do real damage to an organization. > > Gregg Mahlkov #7418 > > And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and a 56K modem, so PDF > files are too slow for me. Greg, don't be afraid to step on anyone's toes, this is a good thing it gets there attention. SPEAK LOUDLY and use my name... RATSO/Greg Martin --part1_cf.89febd5.2d9870d2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Greg Mahlkov writes:<= BR>

After having been made to feel=20= unwelcome at the PRRT&HS website, I hadn't visited in a couple of years=20= until someone on PRR-Talk mentioned TKM. So I looked at the first few issues= and was extremely impressed. I then met some of you, including the Presiden= t, AL Buchan, at Cocoa Beach and joined as soon as I returned home.

A great place to meet fellow modelers and we enjoyed the extr= a sun you supplied us... The seeds that Al apparently planted now have began= to grow.

So, TKM got at least one new m= ember, me. I must say I agree with Greg Martin that TKM is an excellent indu= cement to get more members, not anything that will decrease membership... Af= ter all, this information wasn't offered in the "keystone" before, was it?<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

And Greg in actuality you are not alone as the whole concept=20= made me a member... No, this was all new material which amassed quickly and=20= Al has a good backlog with more coming...

All this clamoring to charge f= or TKM or restrict access goes back to my original reason for not joining so= oner - the attitude of some of the membership that they are an exclusive clu= b and new members are not welcome, even if they are former employees.=

I also read an unfair accusation about the PRRT&HS BOD not being presen= t at Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan don't count? PRR was= well represented by in models and clinics. Of course, the N scale ones were= mine.:<)


Well, in fact they do count but isn't there more folks involv= ed here that could have made the journey. I am sure that Tom Madden would ha= ve liked to meet up with Chuck Bardone.  It would just allow more folks= to rotate at table that deals just with the PRRT&HS as we will have nex= t year. Bruce and I will man it but it would be nice to have some relief at=20= some point.  I was hoping that Al could have focused on more "other bus= iness" in Cocoa Beach that involved the manufacturers. 

Sorry if I've stepped on any=20= toes, but this is the sort of thing that can do real damage to an organizati= on.

Gregg Mahlkov #7418

And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and a 56K modem, so PDF fi= les are too slow for me.


Greg, don't be afraid to step on anyone's toes, this is a good thing it gets= there attention.

SPEAK LOUDLY and use my name...

RATSO/Greg Martin --part1_cf.89febd5.2d9870d2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Keystone/PRR T&HS issues Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:21:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil and List, I think that the job of Keystone distribution manager is available merely for the asking. It has been announced more help is needed in that area at the Phila. Chapter meets more then once. If this whole thing is a call to arms, then come out shootin! My jury is still out on the other recent issues. I tend to think that if the contributors do so for free knowing that there is no compensation, then TKM too should remain free. That COULD be the hook here. TKM remains free for you if you contribute to it twice a year. I try to give photos to both the Keystone and TKM as much as possible. Chuck Blardone has loudly stated recently that backlog of articles to be published in the Keystone is getting dangerously small. Those in the know that will prepare the number crunching spreadsheet may be able to correlate the non-renews to subscribers of TKM. I will wait until that time comes for the results. I will end this with this thought. Chuck Blardone has been doing us ALL a HUGE service for the past 20 or so years by keeping the quality and time schedule of the Keystone second to none. We all should be prepared, because whenever he decides to return to civilian life, the negative impact on the society will also be huge and unstoppable unless an equally committed, dedicated and qualified successor steps up immediately. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Keystone/PRR T&HS issues Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:21:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil and List, I think that the job of Keystone distribution manager is available merely for the asking. It has been announced more help is needed in that area at the Phila. Chapter meets more then once. If this whole thing is a call to arms, then come out shootin! My jury is still out on the other recent issues. I tend to think that if the contributors do so for free knowing that there is no compensation, then TKM too should remain free. That COULD be the hook here. TKM remains free for you if you contribute to it twice a year. I try to give photos to both the Keystone and TKM as much as possible. Chuck Blardone has loudly stated recently that backlog of articles to be published in the Keystone is getting dangerously small. Those in the know that will prepare the number crunching spreadsheet may be able to correlate the non-renews to subscribers of TKM. I will wait until that time comes for the results. I will end this with this thought. Chuck Blardone has been doing us ALL a HUGE service for the past 20 or so years by keeping the quality and time schedule of the Keystone second to none. We all should be prepared, because whenever he decides to return to civilian life, the negative impact on the society will also be huge and unstoppable unless an equally committed, dedicated and qualified successor steps up immediately. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:52:00 +0100 Seems a fair way of doing things Parick Grace ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: donmack@comcast.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; = prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read donmack@comcast.net writes: also concur with many that the TKM should be available to members = only and accessed via a password-protected Web site area. It could also = be sold separately as a source of additional revenue. It is a terrific = publication that is way too good to be given away free of cost. I = download and print the PDF version on my color printer and keep it in a = 3-ring binder for reference.=20 ____________________ Don Mackintosh Once again following this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL = of "greedy bunch."=20 This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the death of = one of the best ideas to hit this society since its inception. What = makes any of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the = TKM that we should cut short it's progress before it's goals have been = reached. Someone tell me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and = then what does the KEYSTONE cost and what are the budget overruns with = that ... read as red ink!=20 KEEP TMK FREE ... if it's not broke don't fix it.=20 Greg Martin Greg=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C41506.84464000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Seems a fair way of doing = things
 
Parick Grace
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: donmack@comcast.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com= =20
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 = 5:39=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS = help;=20 important; please read

donmack@comcast.net=20 writes:


also concur with many that the TKM should be available = to=20 members only and accessed via a password-protected Web site = area.  It=20 could also be sold separately as a source of additional = revenue.  It is=20 a terrific publication that is way too good to be given away free of = cost.  I download and print the PDF version on my color printer = and=20 keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference.

____________________

Don = Mackintosh


Once = again following=20 this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL of "greedy bunch."=20

This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the = death of=20 one of the best ideas to hit this society since its inception.  = What=20 makes any of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the = TKM that=20 we should cut short it's progress before it's goals have been reached. = Someone=20 tell me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and then what does = the=20 KEYSTONE cost and what are the budget overruns with that ... read as = red ink!=20

KEEP TMK FREE ...  if it's not broke don't fix it. =

Greg=20 Martin

Greg
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C41506.84464000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] asking for help Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:01:38 -0500 I am tring to do an article on a Wreck which happened below Snow Hill, = MD on Mar 30 1946. Would anyone out there happen to have any old photo's = of this wreck? I have tried the Library locally and they have no copies = of the paper even on Microfish. I'd appreciate any help. Lee Burbage (1943) PRT&HS Retired USCG, and Railroad also. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C414D5.92480700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I am tring to do an article on a Wreck which happened below Snow = Hill, MD=20 on Mar 30 1946. Would anyone out there happen to have any old photo's of = this=20 wreck? I have tried the Library locally and they have no copies of the = paper=20 even on Microfish.
 
I'd appreciate any help.
 
Lee Burbage  (1943) PRT&HS
Retired USCG, and Railroad also.
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C414D5.92480700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: [PRR] TKM Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:59:54 -0500 Al, If need be, remove the TKM from the Society and publish it on it's own. The BOD does not own everything Pennsy. Don Murphy ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C414DD.B634D460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" TKM

Al,

If = need be, remove the TKM from the Society and publish it on = it’s own. The BOD does not own everything = Pennsy.

Don = Murphy

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C414DD.B634D460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:36:22 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil and Gents, Dave Scott handles the sales of books and Keystone's to hobby and book shops. I know orders are regularly sent to the Strasburg rail shop and a book store in NYC. I should know because my father packages the books and some of the magazine orders. If Kleins would like to carry our publications they must contact us. I haven't been to Kleins recently but personally from my own opinion from working in Balmer' the B&O has a bigger presence with its museum than the PRR. If a demand is created for PRR publication then I think Kleins would consider it. But like all businesses there must be a demand. If Kleins purchases PRR publications and they gather dust sitting on a rack what's the point? The only major PRR building still in use is the station, younger people may recall old, abandoned facilities somewhere but the PRR itself has no major vision in Baltimore anymore. -John Phil Balles wrote: List Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Regards Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:23:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings This latest series of topics started with the PRRT&HS help message and has morphed into other topics. The original topic is the most important and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. If there are 669 members that haven't renewed then something has gone wrong somewhere. Blame has been placed on the TKM ,aging you name it. With a number as large as 669 members something went wrong in the communications of the renewal. Try to contact the 669 people the least expensive way either by email if available or by postcard. This way the society will at least have some idea of what happened and will know if there is a true disaster in the making or just some bad communications. Once the true nature of the problem is found simply try to make sure it doesn't happen again. In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al Buchan's changes to the society. I have been a member since I think 1978 or 1979 and the society in the past offered me little in information, modeling or operations info for the era I had an interest in. I attempted a number of years ago to get the society to sponsor a special number run of a HO scale PRR car that I knew was going to be released. I was willing to bankroll the project so the society would have no possible financial loss and if the project was a success it would keep all the profits after I had been paid back my investment. I was told by the SUIT in charge at that time that the society had no interest in anything like that and was strictly a Historical society. well the car was a big sucess and the society missed out on a source of revenue. The society needs modelers to be members. There are not sufficient numbers of people interested in the Historical aspect only to sustain the society as we know it. Getting back to the original title find out what went wrong and hopefully fix it. -------------------------- Ken McCorry PRRT&HS #1536 and Phila Chap #323 --part1_1ce.1d2d47a2.2d98aa7f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" This latest s= eries of topics started with the PRRT&HS help message and has morphed in= to other topics. The original topic is the most important and needs to be de= alt with as soon as possible. If there are 669 members that haven't renewed=20= then something has gone wrong somewhere. Blame has been placed on the TKM ,a= ging you name it.  With a number as large as 669 members something went= wrong in the communications of the renewal. Try to contact the 669 people t= he least expensive way either by email if available or by postcard. This way= the society will at least have some idea of what happened and will know if=20= there is a true disaster in the making or just some bad communications. &nbs= p;Once the true nature of the problem is found simply try to make sure it do= esn't happen again.=20
=20
In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age=20= with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al Buchan's= changes to the society. I have been a member since I think 1978 or 1979 and= the society in the past offered me little in information, modeling or opera= tions info for the era I had an interest in.=20
I attempted a number of years ago to get the society to sponsor a specia= l number run of a  HO scale PRR car that I knew was going to be release= d. I was willing to bankroll the project so the society would have no possib= le financial loss and if the project was a success it would keep all the pro= fits after I had been paid back my investment. I was told by the SUIT in cha= rge at that time that the society had no interest in anything like that and=20= was strictly a Historical society. well the car was a big sucess and the soc= iety missed out on a source of revenue.=20
The society needs modelers to be members. There are not sufficient numb= ers of people interested in the Historical aspect only to sustain the societ= y as we know it. Getting back to the original title find out what went wrong= and hopefully fix it.=20
--------------------------   Ken McCorry   PRRT&= ;HS #1536 and Phila Chap #323 --part1_1ce.1d2d47a2.2d98aa7f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:26:33 -0500 To: KEMACPRR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 28, 2004, at 5:23 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age > with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al > Buchan's changes to the society. Agreed. Al and I don't always see eye to eye, but it was just back in 1999 or so that the BoD met and declared that the PRRT&HS would NOT become an online society. You swap out a few faces with those who have online experience, and look at how far we have come in five years! The eNews and TKM have been excellent and welcome additions to the Society's offerings, and Al is lagely, if not totally, responsible. Kudos! The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:07:44 +0000 > Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 From: "Mike Brown" Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:19:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <597290DE-810F-11D8-90D3-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My grandparents subscribe to the keystone for me...They have been doing this for a few years now...Is there any way to find out if they have done so this year... -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 6:27 PM To: KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings On Mar 28, 2004, at 5:23 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age > with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al > Buchan's changes to the society. Agreed. Al and I don't always see eye to eye, but it was just back in 1999 or so that the BoD met and declared that the PRRT&HS would NOT become an online society. You swap out a few faces with those who have online experience, and look at how far we have come in five years! The eNews and TKM have been excellent and welcome additions to the Society's offerings, and Al is lagely, if not totally, responsible. Kudos! The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:32:53 +0000 From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:51:06 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <597290DE-810F-11D8-90D3-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: -----Original Message----- The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. I agree 100%. I am an active member of my college fraternity Alumni association. We faced a very similar problem; lots of people were not paying their annual dues. We switched from including the annual renewal notice in a newsletter to sending out a separate bill. Renewals went up dramatically. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:49:26 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mike Brown asked: My grandparents subscribe to the keystone for me...They have been doing this for a few years now...Is there any way to find out if they have done so this year... You could call them up and ask - if they're typical grandparents, they'd appreciate the fact that you called... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:47:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: At least one person has been selling select Keystone's and passing out membership applications at train show since September in the Western NY and Ohio area, me. I know that through those efforts have resulted in at least one new member, maybe more. People are very impressed with the Keystone. Also the issue that sold the quickest was the covered Hopper lettering issue, followed closely by the T1 issue. It helped I was tying that issue to the BL! T1, then the XL Boxcar issue. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:00:29 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil Balles wrote: Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Somebody's getting Keystones out to at least one hobby shop - Granddad's Hobbies in Springfield, VA carries it regularly along with a variety of other historical society magazines. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:01:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Trends in Membership X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To give a insight from another society, the C&O historical society. The last meeting which was well attended by their standards was one of their most succesful financially. Much of the success financially was from sales of products at the meeting to modelers. These included models, track charts, blueprints, photo CDs, and many other items. You can get a good idea of what they sell by looking at their web shop. www.chessieshop.com It was attended by over 90% modelers. They are the ones who have a continuing interest. They are the future of the historical societies. One area the PRRT&HS could help modelers and generate interest is by supplying what modelers need in this age of modeling from the prototype. With the C&OHS or the WMHS one can order track charts for any division. Reprints of company publications are carried in stock year round. Manuals and basic timetables reprints are sold by the society for a PROFIT. Custom runs of models do make some money. The current new PRR hopper in O has already sold out in 2 rail O almost before its release. Could they society have sponsered an extra set of numbers and sold them at a profit? Yes, but one must understand where the money is coming from and know the market. N&WHS does HO hoppers regularly and is now on run four. Enough said, Philip Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:01:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:52:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes: Kleins would like to carry our publications they must contact us. I haven't been to Kleins recently but personally from my own opinion from working in Balmer' the B&O has a bigger presence with its museum than the PRR. If a demand is created for PRR publication then I think Kleins would consider it. But like all businesses there must be a demand. If Kleins purchases PRR publications and they gather dust sitting on a rack what's the point? John: You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you. The Society needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third party or by a member. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080529296 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:52:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnf238= 4@suscom.net writes:
Kleins would like to carry our publications th= ey must
contact us. I haven't been to Kleins recently but
personally= from my own opinion from working in Balmer' the
B&O has a bigger pr= esence with its museum than the PRR. If
a demand is created for PRR publ= ication then I think
Kleins would consider it. But like all businesses t= here
must be a demand. If Kleins purchases PRR publications and
they= gather dust sitting on a rack what's the point?
John:
 
You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you.  The Soci= ety needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third part= y or by a member.
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080529296-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:15:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Phil Balles question regarding Klein's not carrying PRRT&HS materials. This is from the Society's Director of Marketing and Sales.. I sent gratis copies of some damaged Keystones to Klein's in 2002 and got no reply. I sent in late 1/04 or early 2/04 a letter, order forms and the book info again, and have heard no reply. I buy some Proto 2000 tank cars from them, and I know for a fact that some of the employees worked for the PRR and are PRR fans, BUT Mr. Klein is the one stopping the possible purchase. I would convey this to the person who asked the question and ask him if he goes into the hobby shop to ask why they are now carring the PRRT&HS items! I also know that the ex-PRR employee is on the Keystone Modeler distribution but is not a member! DS Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:16:22 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Rich, For the selling case I'm only stating what I know as the current policy. From talking with dad tonight, the Keystones that are sold are backissues from a few years ago too. I'm merely a voice in a sea of many, though one many speak as one voice you may be heard. It'd be worth it to zap one off to Dave Scott and get his take on things. Best Regards, John SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: John: You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you. The Society needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third party or by a member. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:19:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: <001e01c41523$8a64d880$8f00a8c0@home1wvb64y3eg> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mike, There's lots of Brown's on the current list but no Mike or Michael. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Mike Brown Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:20 PM To: 'Jerry @ Pennsy'; KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings My grandparents subscribe to the keystone for me...They have been doing this for a few years now...Is there any way to find out if they have done so this year... -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 6:27 PM To: KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings On Mar 28, 2004, at 5:23 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age > with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al > Buchan's changes to the society. Agreed. Al and I don't always see eye to eye, but it was just back in 1999 or so that the BoD met and declared that the PRRT&HS would NOT become an online society. You swap out a few faces with those who have online experience, and look at how far we have come in five years! The eNews and TKM have been excellent and welcome additions to the Society's offerings, and Al is lagely, if not totally, responsible. Kudos! The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:29:59 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gentelmen, I will sayafter hearing many thoughts I will definately be asking my boss if we could include a PRRT&HS membership application with the contents of our Union Station and Additional Passenger Concourse kit. Also, since i'm currently doing R&D on some PRR models, once into production I will personally make sure applications will be included since i'll be distributing the kits. Sometimes it's the realisation of a good idea that starts another ball rolling. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:40:48 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS: The view from my side of the cab Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:13:00 -0600 For the record, in case any BOD members see this, my member no. is 470. = I am a railroad modeler; I am also a historian. How else can I = accumulate the information and knowledge to accurately depict what = equipment was in use and what was being done with it at Northumberland = in May 1954? This is hardly "playing with trains." I agree with Greg Martin; he nailed it, as usual. Keep the TKM free = and open to anyone. And it isn't broke so keep your hands off. It is = by far the most significant thing the society has done since I became a = member (remember, #470). I also agree with Ken McCorry; get on with fixing what is broke: the = member renewal notification system. And I remember the stone age: it = was when all we SPF's had was the Keystone and Pennsy Power. That is = almost unimaginable in this day and age. Enough--S-390's Decapods have been marked up, and The Buffalo Boxcar is = due up from Enola in about 20 minutes; I am told the power is M1b 6704. = Historians, you wanna come watch? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/hoxie/hoxie.html ------=_NextPart_000_0CE0_01C41511.D4E94060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
For the record, in case any BOD members = see this,=20 my member no. is 470.  I am a railroad modeler;  I am also a=20 historian.  How else can I accumulate the information and knowledge = to=20 accurately depict what equipment was in use and what was being done with = it at=20 Northumberland in May 1954?  This is hardly "playing with=20 trains."
 
I agree with Greg Martin;  he = nailed it, as=20 usual.  Keep the TKM free and open to anyone.  And it isn't = broke so=20 keep your hands off.  It is by far the most significant thing the = society=20 has done since I became a member (remember, #470).
 
I also agree with Ken McCorry;  = get on with=20 fixing what is broke:  the member renewal notification = system.  =20 And I remember the stone age: it was when all we SPF's had was the = Keystone and=20 Pennsy Power.  That is almost unimaginable in this day and=20 age.
 
Enough--S-390's Decapods have been = marked up,=20 and The Buffalo Boxcar is due up from Enola in about 20 minutes;  I = am told=20 the power is M1b 6704.  Historians, you wanna come = watch?
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
http://kc.pennsy= rr.com/layouts/hoxie/hoxie.html
------=_NextPart_000_0CE0_01C41511.D4E94060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:17:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steve, Sorry to be joining in late, but was out of town all week and am trying to catch up. The problem with the stripes on the window glass was reported simply in some Motive Power Department correspondence I found as being due to "poor adherence" to the glass. If you look closer at some photos you can also see partial stripes across some porthole windows, evidence that supports this behavior. As Greg mentioned, the wash racks were probably one of the big culprits in this problem. As to whether a replacement window would have gotten replacement stripes, early on, probably yes, as they exhibited great concern over keeping up the corporate image. I read a large report on the great lengths they went to try to come up with techniques/solutions to touching up gold leaf stripes that had gotten damaged by chipping or wear. The even sent the company's "gold leaf expert" out in the field to observe and compare methods, options and results. Later on, once the plan changed to not continue with the stripes on the glass the effort may not have been expended. As with most issues concerning Motive Power plans and policies, the plan was indeed cut and dry in regards to the stripes across the windows; it was always the implementation the wasn't quite as neat. A Blue Print Instruction Letter was issued 9-30-53 to send out new Lettering, Striping and Painting tracings for the EP-20 and EP-22 class locomotives. The tracings were reissued "on account of removing striping across window glass". The fuzzy part was that it was to be carried out "when painting the above locomotive units". The earlier 7-7-52 instructions to paint passenger locomotives Tuscan Red were stated to be done at the time of high mileage maintenance repairs. On 10-27-52 this plan was changed to paint two locomotives Red per week. Don't know how many other times the plan changed. There almost always seemed to be a plan - it just doesn't always appear that way 50-odd years later when we look at a very limited number of photos taken at the exact moments of interest, particularly when many of the plans were set up to be implemented over a (sometimes protracted) period of time. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Hoxie To: Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the windows issue wasn't so cut and dry. There are photos that show stripes on all the windows, stripes on none of the windows, and every possible combination in between, including one window in a pair with stripes and the other without. And this is in both DGLE and Tuscan. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS (non-member take) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:27:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Guys, Speaking as one of the "unwashed multitude" I have to wonder why more effort isn't spent on VISIBILITY. I personally don't go to the BIG model railroad shows, simply because they are far in my opinion. Yet I do attend any and all shows in my area, and that is about a 40 mile radius. To date, I have never seen or have heard mentioned the PRRT&HS at any of these "smaller" shows. Ever hear of spreading the word? One of the main reasons for joining (and attending conventions) should be the fellowship. Now let me pose this question: Who travels any distance "just" to look at other folks efforts? I would think it would be most advantagous to hold "mini meetings", hosted by a few of the faithful, in an attempt to bring others into the fold. Ties in with visibility. Having a copy or two of "The Keystone" sitting on a magazine rack doesn't (in my mind) speak much for the organization, but a semi-regular get together (posted here at least originally,with Jerry's blessings of course), might be more effective. I just have to ask, what are you trying to sell, "The Keystone" or the PRRT&HS? 'nuff said, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:50:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greg, What do you mean when you say " "Gold Leaf" stripe (actually Bronze/Gold)" ? In the diesel era, the PRR had considered using a paint that was filled with bronze powder to get the metallic appearance, but that was not what they used. All the Motive Power Department documents I have read state that it was actual, real live Gold Leaf - i.e., very, very thin sheets of actual gold. (In fact, one of EMD's belly-aches about using it was that they were experiencing substantial "pilferage" of their stock of the stuff - who would bother to steal imitation gold?) The method of application was to apply a sizing medium first to the exact surfaces to which the gold was to be applied. The gold leaf was transferred gingerly from the backing sheets that support the extremely delicate sheet of gold. Where there was sizing, it stuck, where there wasn't, it didn't. The finishing varnish was then applied over the gold leaf to protect it from mechanical and environmental abuse. The gold was so thin it had absolutely no structural integrity of its own, the strength of the application was totally based on the sizing and the varnish. When those items degraded, so went the finish. It was not uncommon for it to flake off leaving a poor appearance which was difficult to repair as the gold appeared to darken as it aged, making it difficult to seamlessly patch with a brighter, fresh gold leaf and varnish application. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations > Chris Chaney cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > > > Listers, > > Do you think if the window broke and they replaced it they would repaint the stripes? > > Chris Chany > > Chris, > > Not, I wouldn't believe they would but the that's not to say they didn't and there may be evidence that they did. > > The issue with the stripes coming off the windows was likely due to the wash racks... I know that the original "Gold Leaf" stripe (actually Bronze/Gold) was applied with common varnish as an adhesive including over the windows. As the varnishes broke donw I believe that the brittle stripe likely came off. But I can't prioove this as I was working in the shops. The adhesion to the glass was far less tht that to a painted surface. > > Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:43:37 -0500 To: John Frantz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 28, 2004, at 10:29 PM, John Frantz wrote: > I will sayafter hearing many thoughts I will definately be asking my > boss if we could include a PRRT&HS membership application with the > contents of our Union Station and Additional Passenger Concourse kit. > Also, since i'm currently doing R&D on some PRR models, once into > production I will personally make sure applications will be included > since i'll be distributing the kits. Sometimes it's the realisation of > a good idea that starts another ball rolling. That's a good thing and a bad thing. I think it suggests the kits are "endorsed" by the Society in some way, when they are not. I've seen photos of the Union Station model and it is, of course, a dead ringer for Baltimore. So I am not questioning the quality/appearance of the model. Just the fact that it is NOT endorsed and including Society materials within "may" suggest an endorsement. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Convention registration Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:04:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am registering a little later then I wanted to. Does anyone know if anything is sold out? More specifically, I want a vendor table and the 11:00 museum tour. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:04:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Convention registration Hi All, I am registering a little later then I wanted to. Does anyone know if anything is sold out? More specifically, I want a vendor table and the 11:00 museum tour. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:23:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John: The Keystones that are offer for sale are those from the previous year, i.e. the 2004 issues will be available in January 2005. That is the current policy. However, I would appreciate it if you would not state what the current policies of the Society are. You are not on the management team and speak with no authority. Thanx for your understanding and cooperation. Al Buchan President -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John Frantz Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 10:16 PM To: SUVCWORR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Rich, For the selling case I'm only stating what I know as the current policy. From talking with dad tonight, the Keystones that are sold are backissues from a few years ago too. I'm merely a voice in a sea of many, though one many speak as one voice you may be heard. It'd be worth it to zap one off to Dave Scott and get his take on things. Best Regards, John SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: John: You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you. The Society needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third party or by a member. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:30:53 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/26/04 NYO&W gets a lot of ink from RMC. Joh Liebeskind -------------------------------1080567053 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
NYO&W gets a lot of ink from RMC.
Joh Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080567053-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:33:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/27/04 Ditto. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1080567221 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Ditto.
John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080567221-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:02:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/29/04 Ask them. -------------------------------1080568943 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Ask them. -------------------------------1080568943-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS: The view from my side of the cab Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:44:55 -0500 From: STEPHEN HOXIE [mailto:stevehprr@earthlink.net] Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS: The view from my side of the cab From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:17:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John: Please accept my apologies for rebuking you in public about your statement regarding Society policy. It was not my intent, as I thought my message was addressed to you only. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:20:13 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/29/2004 8:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Al Buchan" writes: > However, I would appreciate it if you would not state >what the current policies of the Society are. You are not on the >management team and speak with no authority. >Al Buchan >President > Al: Therein lies the crux of the problem. The society is an oligarchy. Even the policies established by the BOD are not made known to the members. And now you don't want members to speak of the so called policies. How can you expect growth or even a stable membership number when everything is kept a secret? While I have been a member of the Society for about 20 years, I have frequently questioned the method of "managing" the society. If it were not for the Keystone and now TKM, I would have been gone long ago. In my opinion as a member with no voice in the management of the Society and wholly expecting this to fall on deaf ears, there are two issues which caused the decline in membership: 1) the attempt to save a few pennies by including the renewal notice in the fall Keystone and 2) the method of governing the Society which is designed to exclude rather than be inclusive. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:44:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Atmosphere From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:20 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Therein lies the crux of the problem. The society is an oligarchy. > Even the policies established by the BOD are not made known to the > members. And now you don't want members to speak of the so called > policies. How can you expect growth or even a stable membership > number when everything is kept a secret? Rich: This response it not a scolding of you, by any means, but is intended as a generalization. When I joined the Society circa 1998, the BoD was definitely a "cloak and dagger" operation, with hands clenched over all aspects of the Society, its archives, etc. -- and with futile and childish attempts to suppress anyone but the Society from publishing on the Internet. (LOL) Since that time there has been a dramatic shift in the makeup of the BoD, plus some changes in opinion by the remaining members. The change in the Society since 2000 or so has been very dramatic. As for policy, Al's point was that John was speaking out of turn. Only a member of the BoD should be citing policy. I think the fact that John's father is on the BoD provides him with some close information and that he felt comfortable making the statement . The mistake was that relationship does not give him the authority. Many of the "policies" of the Society are there for the taking. You just need to ask. I don't think everything needs to be written out in public. I have often made information requests of Chuck Blardone and Al Buchan and I have ALWAYS received an answer. There has never been an attempt -- that I recall -- for them to hedge or to hide information. The answer may not always have been what I wanted to hear, but the answer was provided, in a timely manner, and politely. Bottom line: If you think it is a secret, ask. If you don't get an answer, then you can make your case. One last observation: I've been known to rock the boat (who, me?) when I feel strongly that something is amiss. In 1999 I was told by a member of the BoD, in no uncertain terms, that I would NEVER be allowed to serve as an officer of the Society or any of its chapters. Last November I was nominated and elected vice president of the Northern Central Chapter. I did not seek or campaign for this position and, quite frankly, was caught totally off-guard by the nomination. I am more than happy to serve. And the BoD member who made that comment to me in 1999 is no longer active in the Society. The atmosphere has changed! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:51:53 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:58:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from. Is there anything currently available that contains such information? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080575898 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures fro= m.   Is there anything currently available that contains such info= rmation?
 
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080575898-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:58:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from. Is there anything currently available that contains such information? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080575898 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures fro= m.   Is there anything currently available that contains such info= rmation?
 
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080575898-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:00:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: > If everyone who is a member of the Society recruited one new member, > the > Society would be self perpetuating. And -- if there isn't one -- the PRRT&HS should develop a three panel brochure, including membership app, and save it on the web site as a PDF. It needs to be a marketing brochure. Why? Because I am proposing that layout owners print it out, fold it, and display it when they have open houses!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:23:32 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Glass half empty/glass half full: an opinion Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Rich, Al, John, Jerry, and the List: PRRT&HS may or may not be where everyone agrees that it should be on this scale, but all things considered, the group's leadership seems to be more accessible now than it's been since probably the earliest, informal days when it was the Pennsylvania Research & Information Association. I'll say up front that Al is a friend of mine so the next statement is colored by that fact--but he's one of the most approachable people you'll ever meet in this group. To our shame, that attitude was not always the case and there was a time when leadership wore clubbishness on its sleeve. That *did* drive people away. Do we have room for improvement? Yes. But is it better than before? Yes. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:52:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3A98AC20-819A-11D8-86B3-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: the PRRT&HS should develop a three panel brochure, including membership app, and save it on the web site as a PDF. The Society does have a membership brochure, I've mentioned it in several communications I've put out regarding increasing membership. They are available form Fred Shaefer, and the website does have a membership application. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:14:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Glass half empty/glass half full: an opinion In a message dated 03/29/2004 10:42:15 AM Central Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes: > But is it better than before? Yes. > Dan, That must be an understatement, I'd say MUCH, MUCH better than before. Al Stump --part1_138.2ced2580.2d99b358_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 03/29/2= 004 10:42:15 AM Central Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes:


But is it better than before? Y= es.

Dan,
That must be an understatement, I'd say MUCH, MUCH better than before.
Al Stump
 --part1_138.2ced2580.2d99b358_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:45:43 -0500 There are some in the standard plans collection on my website. To see just the structure related plans go to: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?type=STRU Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:58 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from. Is there anything currently available that contains such information? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ ------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C41583.5E344740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
There are some in the standard = plans=20 collection on my website.  
To see just the structure related plans go = to:
http:= //prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?type=3DSTRU
 
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent:=20 Monday, March 29, 2004 10:58 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside=20 structures

I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side = structures=20 from.   Is there anything currently available that contains = such=20 information?
 
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS = 346
PRRT&HS=20 (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C41583.5E344740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Increasing Society membership Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:48:21 +0000 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:06:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 12:48 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > That being said and needing confirmation it is too bad there isn't > some form of modular layout that could be taken to shows (particularly > in the east) and brochures on the society handed out. You can't tell > me that a couple of passenger trains (one pulled by a BLI T-1 and one > the Congo pulled by a GG1) wouldn't attract people. A four track > corridor layout with a couple of freights also and a brochure that > outlined the size and firsts of the PRR and a membership form could do > wonders. No, there isn't any official Society layout -- like the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS has, but some things are in the works... Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, has for years displayed N scale stuff at shows on a randomly created layout on top of tables. He has since invested in modules and permanently applied the track. He'll be getting out more and more with this. I'm sure he would display PRRT&HS brochures if they were offered. I am in the process of creating an N scale switching layout -- a Time Saver of sorts. When I display as a vendor it will be used to demonstrate DCC, Soundtraxx, and other products. But at other times it will just be used for fun... for switching puzzles, etc. (I've already gotten the contact info from Al about the brochures.) Does anyone else out there have PRR layouts they take to shows? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:39:44 -0800

 

 

=

All;

 

I read each and every e-mail on = this subject, and received some very insightful phone calls.  I think that the ideas you = came up with are outstanding.

 

=

First, I would apologize to those = that viewed this as a threat.  = Far be it from that, it is just a fact that a membership drop of this magnitude = will force the Board to do something about the financial situation of the PRRT&HS.  It would = affect a lot more than just TKM.  I was = shocked to read that someone would view our current predicament as something = that would warrant NOT renewing.  = That distresses me.

 

=

I would also encourage some to = re-read my original message.  There = are a few key points that I think some folks missed.  There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against = another.  I was pointing out that = non-renewals will impact the society, and that the society runs as a non-profit = organization.  Therefore, every non-renewal = hurts.  And you cannot blame to Board = for what they will have to do to remain solvent.  As I said, it will impact more than just TKM.   All I am asking for is = for folks to re-up, if they haven't already done so.

 

=

I was also very pleased to read = all the cogent comments on how we might overcome this current difficulty.  All of it was cause for a = great deal of thinking.  It was very = obvious that there is no majority opinion on what we should = do.

 

=

I have to state my personal wish = that TKM remains free.  I was very = outspoken about this back when we were getting this off the ground, and continue = to be.  I, with Al and Greg = and others, believed that we are attracting new members and getting some folks to re-subscribe, perhaps after a long absence.  It appears from the e-mail = that this was true.

 

=

It also appears that the absence = of a mailed renewal form was a very large = problem.

 

=

I have forwarded a copy of a summar= y of your comments, for potential review by the Board = members.

 

=

I want to thank each and every one = of you that offered to help, one way or the other.  It means a lot to all of us = that you appreciate what we are trying to do.

 

=

Keep the = positive feedback = coming.

 

=

 

=

Elden = Gatwood

Chair, Modeling = Committee

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C415CD.F7D46F70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:39:44 -0800

 

 

=

All;

 

I read each and every e-mail on = this subject, and received some very insightful phone calls.  I think that the ideas you = came up with are outstanding.

 

=

First, I would apologize to those = that viewed this as a threat.  = Far be it from that, it is just a fact that a membership drop of this magnitude = will force the Board to do something about the financial situation of the PRRT&HS.  It would = affect a lot more than just TKM.  I was = shocked to read that someone would view our current predicament as something = that would warrant NOT renewing.  = That distresses me.

 

=

I would also encourage some to = re-read my original message.  There = are a few key points that I think some folks missed.  There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against = another.  I was pointing out that = non-renewals will impact the society, and that the society runs as a non-profit = organization.  Therefore, every non-renewal = hurts.  And you cannot blame to Board = for what they will have to do to remain solvent.  As I said, it will impact more than just TKM.   All I am asking for is = for folks to re-up, if they haven't already done so.

 

=

I was also very pleased to read = all the cogent comments on how we might overcome this current difficulty.  All of it was cause for a = great deal of thinking.  It was very = obvious that there is no majority opinion on what we should = do.

 

=

I have to state my personal wish = that TKM remains free.  I was very = outspoken about this back when we were getting this off the ground, and continue = to be.  I, with Al and Greg = and others, believed that we are attracting new members and getting some folks to re-subscribe, perhaps after a long absence.  It appears from the e-mail = that this was true.

 

=

It also appears that the absence = of a mailed renewal form was a very large = problem.

 

=

I have forwarded a copy of a summar= y of your comments, for potential review by the Board = members.

 

=

I want to thank each and every one = of you that offered to help, one way or the other.  It means a lot to all of us = that you appreciate what we are trying to do.

 

=

Keep the = positive feedback = coming.

 

=

 

=

Elden = Gatwood

Chair, Modeling = Committee

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C415CD.F7D46F70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:58:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures From: Jamie Bothwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:58 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures=20 > from.=A0=A0 Is there anything currently available that contains such=20= > information? > =A0 > Thank you, > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 > CNJ > Evan, There is a book by Jeff Scherb of standard plans for PRR things. = Some=20 structures are included. He e-mailed me a couple days ago to say that=20= Volume 2 should be out this summer and it will be mostly structures. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--792530274 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:58 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from.=A0=A0 Is there anything currently available that = contains such information? =A0 Thank you, 0000,0000,0000Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ Evan, There is a book by Jeff Scherb of standard plans for PRR things.=20= Some structures are included. He e-mailed me a couple days ago to say that Volume 2 should be out this summer and it will be mostly structures. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--792530274-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:00:16 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry and list, To answer the question in your last sentence below, yes, I exhibit this small PRR layout in Tallahassee and Dothan every year.. http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/acx.jpg It's only 2 ft. by 4 ft. in N scale, but I now run PRR turn of the last century steam on it. Gregg Mahlkov #7418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership > On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 12:48 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > That being said and needing confirmation it is too bad there isn't > > some form of modular layout that could be taken to shows (particularly > > in the east) and brochures on the society handed out. You can't tell > > me that a couple of passenger trains (one pulled by a BLI T-1 and one > > the Congo pulled by a GG1) wouldn't attract people. A four track > > corridor layout with a couple of freights also and a brochure that > > outlined the size and firsts of the PRR and a membership form could do > > wonders. > > No, there isn't any official Society layout -- like the Harrisburg > Chapter of the NRHS has, but some things are in the works... > > Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, has for years > displayed N scale stuff at shows on a randomly created layout on top of > tables. He has since invested in modules and permanently applied the > track. He'll be getting out more and more with this. I'm sure he would > display PRRT&HS brochures if they were offered. > > I am in the process of creating an N scale switching layout -- a Time > Saver of sorts. When I display as a vendor it will be used to > demonstrate DCC, Soundtraxx, and other products. But at other times it > will just be used for fun... for switching puzzles, etc. (I've already > gotten the contact info from Al about the brochures.) > > Does anyone else out there have PRR layouts they take to shows? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:47:09 -0600 From: Randy Subject: [PRR] PRR Structures From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:13:37 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackside Structures -Thanks! Thanks for the great response. I will be getting a book on these structures from Merchandise Service plus perusing the sites you all posted. Thanks a Million, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080602016 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Thanks for the great response.  I will be getting a book on these=20= structures from Merchandise Service plus perusing the sites you all posted.<= /DIV>
 
Thanks a Million,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080602016-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:12:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I been talking with some friends about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint NKP-PRR Brocton NY to Buffalo NY line. Since many of us are members of both societies. It's still in the planning stages. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership > On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 12:48 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > That being said and needing confirmation it is too bad there isn't > > some form of modular layout that could be taken to shows (particularly > > in the east) and brochures on the society handed out. You can't tell > > me that a couple of passenger trains (one pulled by a BLI T-1 and one > > the Congo pulled by a GG1) wouldn't attract people. A four track > > corridor layout with a couple of freights also and a brochure that > > outlined the size and firsts of the PRR and a membership form could do > > wonders. > > No, there isn't any official Society layout -- like the Harrisburg > Chapter of the NRHS has, but some things are in the works... > > Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, has for years > displayed N scale stuff at shows on a randomly created layout on top of > tables. He has since invested in modules and permanently applied the > track. He'll be getting out more and more with this. I'm sure he would > display PRRT&HS brochures if they were offered. > > I am in the process of creating an N scale switching layout -- a Time > Saver of sorts. When I display as a vendor it will be used to > demonstrate DCC, Soundtraxx, and other products. But at other times it > will just be used for fun... for switching puzzles, etc. (I've already > gotten the contact info from Al about the brochures.) > > Does anyone else out there have PRR layouts they take to shows? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1BC59A0A-81DB-11D8-A6F3-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI E7's -- So Much For Pre-Pro Photos! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:45:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: You know those "pre production" E7 photos we were discussing the past few days? Well I just got my pro forma invoice from BLI with a letter saying they will be ready to ship to dealers in about two weeks. You fill in the blanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:49:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS (non-member take) Now your talking. Good point! --part1_1d9.1d8dfe2c.2d9a1e09_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Now your talking. Good point! --part1_1d9.1d8dfe2c.2d9a1e09_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Atmosphere Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:30:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2004 02:35:38.0280 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFC23280:01C415FF] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I must butt in here. I agree with all that has transpired. Because, I too, was "just hanging on by the seat of my pants. I know a few PRR modelers who "don't like the PRRTHS because of the way they operate the Society". But I am an independent thinker. Phooey! Since when do we, as individuals, have to follow the herd? We are all individuals who have brains. We must think independently and make up our own minds and make decisions that are best for US. Therefore, let those of us who are serious, keep doing what is best. The Society is NO LONGER the "oligarchy" or "anarchy" or anything of the sort. Al Buchan is doing one H... of a good job. And so are the others "behind the scenes". I can't even remember how long I've been a member (does the #1204 mean anything?). But the money has been very well spent. The return on investment is better than some mutual funds I own. LOL The Keystone is FIRST CLASS. The TKM is right up there. What more do you expect for $38.00 a year? I fully understand Jerry - one BOD member does not make the whole Board. And yes, the ones that aren't "friendly" don't really stick/stand around too long. And I've "been there", albeit in different circumstances. We must all simply keep on doing what is best - Best for the Society to keep it viable. And best for each of us as individuals. All IMHO as usual. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:00:56 EST Subject: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO brian@net.bluemoon.net writes: > I been talking with some friends about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint > NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY line. Since many of us are members of both > societies. It's still in the planning stages. > > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY Brian and all, I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12 show in malls a year. Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAINLINE modeler fan. I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^) Two tracks opens a whole new world in operations. I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-PRO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie-round module clubs. Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" brian@net.bluemoon.ne= t writes:


I been talking with some friend= s about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY=20= line. Since many of us are members of both societies. It's still in the plan= ning stages.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Brian and all,

I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the= marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12= show in malls a year.

Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAIN= LINE modeler fan.  I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and= should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^)   Two tracks opens a whole n= ew world in operations.  I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-P= RO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there= is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for=20= operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie= -round module clubs.

Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:00:56 EST Subject: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO brian@net.bluemoon.net writes: > I been talking with some friends about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint > NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY line. Since many of us are members of both > societies. It's still in the planning stages. > > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY Brian and all, I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12 show in malls a year. Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAINLINE modeler fan. I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^) Two tracks opens a whole new world in operations. I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-PRO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie-round module clubs. Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" brian@net.bluemoon.ne= t writes:


I been talking with some friend= s about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY=20= line. Since many of us are members of both societies. It's still in the plan= ning stages.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Brian and all,

I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the= marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12= show in malls a year.

Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAIN= LINE modeler fan.  I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and= should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^)   Two tracks opens a whole n= ew world in operations.  I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-P= RO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there= is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for=20= operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie= -round module clubs.

Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:13:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:

I just want a couple of these without sound. Does anyone know of anyway I can buy just two of these cars? I don't want 6 of them.

Thanks,

Eric Lauterbach
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:38:58 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:12:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler & Periodicals Database From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <4156FFF1-8254-11D8-B26A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've added "The Keystone Modeler" to the searchable periodicals database on Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/periodicals/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:15:45 -0500 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:43:44 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] LCL-7 Question Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:53:07 +0000 From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:56:43 -0800 From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:58:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben, Bob, Not that it matters in HO Scale but what other, if any, livestock would travel in the double deck K7a's? Chickens? Turkeys? I know some roads had Poultry Cars, I don't recall seeing any PRR Poultry cars. Baby Chicks and such used to be hauled in Headend cars though in little boxes with ventilation holes....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Sanborn Maps of Warsaw, Indiana Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:56:16 +0000 From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:09 -0500 From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars
From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com]
Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:40:15 +0000 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL-7 Question Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:32:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [192.168.1.1] at Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:32:57 -0600 Message-Id: <20040330173257.TXDL1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, I'm not positive, but I think LCL-7 originated in Pavonia Yard (Camden, NJ). Dave Pfeiffer > > From: "Ted Andrews" > Date: 2004/03/30 Tue AM 09:53:07 CST > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] LCL-7 Question > > PRR Listers: > > Where did this train originate in the mid-1960's? In Mark Bej's site, this > train went from Philadelphia to Conway in 1959. By 1965, this train symbol > went all the way to Chicago. It typically was merged into one train with > LCL-1, whose origin was Harsimus Cove, NJ. > > I am postulating that LCL-1 and LCL-7 originated at Harsimus Cove and > Philadelphia, respectively. Both trains then merged at Conway for the trip > west to Chicago. > > Does this sound plausible? > > Thanks > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > P.S.: PLEASE RENEW your PRRT&HS membership!! I was one of the many that > forgot!! (I am renewed now) :-) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:38:49 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill Daniels writes: > Hi Greg, > > I've been interested in the FREE-MO concept ever since I first became aware of the concept...never did like the NASA-style modular concept (endlessly orbiting the layout...)< I could go into the differences in concepts but I won't as I think that it is time for a change. the club I ussed to belong to in So Cal was the forerunner for N_track and origainally owned bt Leo Campbell and the basis for the NMRA standards... Dated at best. >and I always thought that the single-track point-to-point concept always made more sense...but then I'm more an Elmira branch type of guy (other than Ken McCorrey who's got room for a 4-track mainline that actually does something?)< I too like the FREE_MO concept for branchline or modern modelers. Single track mainlines are not my cup of tea. That is why I would like to see a newer set of standards evolve from the FREE-MO concept but not so that the two couldn't mate. Aslo it seems that the scenery standards on many modular layouts seldom blend well. They also seem to get stuck on the 4-foot module sesign instead of 5-foot or longer which flows much better. Ever try to add a #8 switch to a 4-foot module in HO Scale... go figure. > But the idea does have merit...let's see if we can whip up any enthusiasm for this... Again I would love to see something serious develope base on PROTOTYPE MODELERS standards much like FREE-MO. I would be willing to talk... > Bill Daniels Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:06:34 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My two pence-worth from the other side of the pond. Firstly: Has it been thoroughly established that the open to everyone TKM has impacted on PRRTHS membership renewals? Where is the evidence, if any? If it hasn't then I can't consider there is much of a problem to argue over. Secondly: If the TKM is causing a significant downturn on renewals then it seems to me that some form of remedial action is worth discussing despite the fact that a free for all, open access TKM is the most desirable option in an 'ideal' world. My suggestion would be to produce a 'Synopsis' of each issue, featuring juicy titbits of what the full TKM has to offer. This former would be open to all to view but a PRRTHS membership code of some sort would be required to get at the full TKM. I am not in favour of an extra charge for viewing the TKM as I'm sure it would mirror similar scenarios elsewhere with a rapid fall-off in interest. And, of course, none of us wants to see that happen. Regards, John H. Wright websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: ; Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 9:39 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM > I read each and every e-mail on this subject, and received some very > insightful phone calls. I think that the ideas you came up with are > outstanding. > > First, I would apologize to those that viewed this as a threat. Far be it > from that, it is just a fact that a membership drop of this magnitude will > force the Board to do something about the financial situation of the > PRRT&HS. It would affect a lot more than just TKM. I was shocked to read > that someone would view our current predicament as something that would > warrant NOT renewing. That distresses me. > > I would also encourage some to re-read my original message. There are a few > key points that I think some folks missed. There is no big conspiracy that > pits one side against another. I was pointing out that non-renewals will > impact the society, and that the society runs as a non-profit organization. > Therefore, every non-renewal hurts. And you cannot blame to Board for what > they will have to do to remain solvent. As I said, it will impact more than > just TKM. All I am asking for is for folks to re-up, if they haven't > already done so. > > I was also very pleased to read all the cogent comments on how we might > overcome this current difficulty. All of it was cause for a great deal of > thinking. It was very obvious that there is no majority opinion on what we > should do. > > I have to state my personal wish that TKM remains free. I was very > outspoken about this back when we were getting this off the ground, and > continue to be. I, with Al and Greg and others, believed that we are > attracting new members and getting some folks to re-subscribe, perhaps after > a long absence. It appears from the e-mail that this was true. > > It also appears that the absence of a mailed renewal form was a very large > problem. > > I have forwarded a copy of a summary of your comments, for potential review > by the Board members. > > I want to thank each and every one of you that offered to help, one way or > the other. It means a lot to all of us that you appreciate what we are > trying to do. > > Keep the positive feedback coming. > > > Elden Gatwood > Chair, Modeling Committee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:31:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 02:06 PM, John H. Wright wrote: > Firstly: > Has it been thoroughly established that the open to everyone TKM has > impacted on PRRTHS membership renewals? > Where is the evidence, if any? > If it hasn't then I can't consider there is much of a problem to argue > over. John: The discussion started with Elden Gatewood, chair of the Modeling Committee of the Society, stating that memberships had dropped off and that TKM was being considered as the culprit. However, quantifiable evidence was not offered. > > My suggestion would be to produce a 'Synopsis' of each issue, featuring > juicy titbits of what the full TKM has to offer. This former would be > open > to all to view but a PRRTHS membership code of some sort would be > required > to get at the full TKM. I am not in favour of an extra charge for > viewing > the TKM as I'm sure it would mirror similar scenarios elsewhere with a > rapid > fall-off in interest. And, of course, none of us wants to see that > happen. The "synopsis" idea has already been presented -- as an option ONLY if the BoD determines that the free TKM is having a negative effect on renewals. However, most think TKM is actually having a positive effect on renewals. Most think the inclusion of the renewal notice in The Keystone last fall was a mistake and that it should have been a direct mailing. It's not my place to elaborate, but you will be hearing more shortly. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:42:24 +0000 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] The Membership Renewal Conundrum and TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:52:59 -0500 Now that the dust has settled on this subject, or at least it seems to have, let me make a few comments. As Elden said in his most recent message about his initial message, which by the way was released with my approval, was not meant to be a threat - it was just a statement of fact that the Society was concerned about the downward trend of renewals and stated that some were questioning if TKM might be the cause, but that the manner in which the renewal process was handled might be the real cause. I believe many people did miss that main point of the message. The thinking by a few that brought this issue to a head was, now that all of this PRR material is being offered online there is no need for PRR fans to join the Society. Personally I believe that's an ill founded knee-jerk reaction. Frankly I have more faith in the dedication, commitment and enthusiasm of the membership to think that droves would drop out because they now have access to free material. I personally know at least a dozen folks that came back to the Society after a hiatus or joined new because of TKM, and I'm sure there's more. To reinforce another of Elden's comments in which he said, "There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against another." Remember in addition to being Editor of TKM, I also serve as the President and board member along with another board member - Associate TKM Editor Jack Consoli . However, as members of the board we must look out of the overall health of the Society not just one faction of its operation so it's really not a "we" and "them" situation. At any rate during the next couple of months the board will need to make some decisions on just what will happen to TKM. The three alternatives being considered are: 1) place TKM on a password protected site available only to Society members, 2) place TKM on a password protected site available only to subscribers (Society and non-Society), which is least likely, or 3) continue publishing TKM as we are now, making no changes. However, if we do place it on a restricted access site, for members only, we would continue to post a free two-three page "teaser" issue on the website. If I had my druthers I'd keep it on the Society's website as a free resource for not only the died-in-the-wool Pennsy fan, but also for those that model other railroads who need information on how to better model the PRR equipment that ran on their favorite road. The feedback garnered from the replies seems to indicate that many folks would be okay with TKM being on a password protected site. By in large most of the comments posted were positive and useful and those that were snipping from the sidelines seemed to be minimal. There are some folks still harboring ill feelings over the past sins of the Society's management and it seems they just can't shake it off. I hope that they will get over it and become a constructive contributor. Forgiveness works wonders for ones attitude and overall spiritual, mental and physical well-being. I know I've been there on other issues. As I privately told a couple of folks - if one is not part of the solution they are probably part of the problem. As I said many people offered constructive comments however, two members really showed their true colors. One volunteered to call all 600+ people that did not renew, at his own expense, and solicit their renewals. Another volunteered to pay for the cost to mail each nonrenewer a personal letter soliciting their membership. I was truly moved by the dedication express by both of these members. For everyone's information, each year following the annual meeting, member Walt Fidder, personally writes each member who failed to renew and solicits their renewal. He has done this for several years now and his level of success in getting people back is very good. It's his contribution to the Society for which he is receiving the Service Award this year during the annual meeting. Chuck Blardone and I made the decision to include the renewal form in the autumn edition. Clearly this was a mistake - but then again hind sight is always 20-20. It will not be done again. As a matter of fact we are considering using direct mail remittance envelopes for the 2005 renewals. There are several reasons why people have not renewed, they include 1) some don't read well, 2) some haven't even opened it yet, 3) some slit the plastic, slid the mag out and never pulled the form out that was behind the mailing sheet, 4) some tore the plastic off and crushed the mailing sheet and the form behind it putting it in the garbage, 5) some found it, put it on the "to pay" pile and haven't gotten to the pile yet, 6) some can't afford it, 7) some have stopped modeling the PRR (I personally know two of these), 8) some died, and 9) some have lost interest. I'm sure there's more (but I don't really need to hear them) - most fall into reasons 1-5. I'm hoping that these comments wrap up the subject and I personally hope it doesn't bring a raft of replies, I think it has all been said. Let's get back to modeling and talking about the real PRR. Thanx. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C41677.75F3D590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Now that the dust has settled on = this=20 subject, or at least it seems to have,  let me make a few=20 comments.
 
As Elden said in his most recent = message=20 about his initial message, which by the way was released with my = approval, was=20 not meant to be a threat - it was just a statement of fact that the = Society was=20 concerned about the downward trend of renewals and stated=20 that some were questioning if  TKM might be the cause, = but that=20 the manner in which the renewal process was handled might be = the real=20 cause. I believe many people did miss that main point of the=20 message. 
 
The = thinking by a=20 few that brought this issue to a head was, now that all of this PRR = material is=20 being offered online there is no need for PRR fans to join the Society.=20 Personally I believe that’s an ill founded knee-jerk reaction. = Frankly I have=20 more faith in the dedication, commitment and enthusiasm of the = membership to=20 think that droves would drop out because they now have access to free=20 material.  I  = personally know=20 at least a dozen folks that came back to the Society after a hiatus or = joined=20 new because of TKM, and = I’m sure=20 there’s more.
 
To reinforce another of Elden's comments in = which he=20 said, "There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against = another." =20 Remember in addition to being Editor of TKM, I also serve as = the=20 President and board member along with another board member - Associate = TKM=20 Editor Jack Consoli . However, as = members of=20 the board we must look out of the overall health of the Society not just = one=20 faction of its operation so it's really not a "we" and "them"=20 situation.
 
At = any rate=20 during the next couple of months the board will need to make some = decisions on=20 just what will happen to TKM.  The three = alternatives being=20 considered are: 1) place TKM on a=20 password protected site available only to Society members, 2) place TKM on a password protected = site=20 available only to subscribers (Society and non-Society), which is least=20 likely, or 3) continue publishing TKM as we are now, making no = changes.=20 However, if we do place it on a restricted access site, for members=20 only, we would continue to post a free two-three page = “teaser” issue on the=20 website. If I had my druthers I’d keep it on the Society’s = website as a free=20 resource for not only the died-in-the-wool Pennsy fan, but also for = those that=20 model other railroads who need information on how to better model the = PRR=20 equipment that ran on their favorite road. The feedback garnered from = the=20 replies seems to indicate that many folks would be okay with TKM being on a password = protected site.=20
 
By in large most of the comments = posted were=20 positive and useful and those that were snipping from the sidelines = seemed to be=20 minimal. There are some folks still harboring ill feelings over the past = sins of=20 the Society's management and it seems they just can't shake it off. = I hope=20 that they will get over it and become a constructive=20 contributor. Forgiveness works wonders for ones attitude and = overall=20 spiritual, mental and physical well-being. I know I've been there on = other=20 issues. As I privately told a couple of folks - if one is not part of = the=20 solution they are probably part of the problem.
 
As I said many people offered = constructive=20 comments however, two members really showed their true colors. One=20 volunteered to call all 600+ people  that did not renew, at = his own=20 expense, and solicit their renewals. Another volunteered to pay for the = cost to=20 mail each nonrenewer a personal letter soliciting their = membership. I=20 was truly moved by the dedication express by both of these = members.
 
For everyone's information, each = year=20 following the annual meeting, member Walt Fidder, personally writes each = member=20 who failed to renew and solicits their renewal. He has done this for = several=20 years now and his level of success in getting people back is very good. = It's his=20 contribution to the Society for which he is receiving the Service Award = this=20 year during the annual meeting.
 
Chuck Blardone and I made the = decision to=20 include the renewal form in the autumn edition. Clearly this was a = mistake - but=20 then again hind sight is always 20-20. It will not be done again. As a = matter of=20 fact we are considering using direct mail remittance envelopes for the = 2005=20 renewals.
 
There are several reasons why people have not renewed, they = include 1)=20 some don't read well, 2) some haven't even opened it = yet, 3)=20 some slit the plastic, slid the mag out and never pulled the form = out that=20 was behind the mailing sheet, 4) some=20 tore the plastic off and crushed the mailing sheet and the form behind = it=20 putting it in the garbage, 5) some found it, put it on = the "to=20 pay" pile and haven't gotten to the pile yet, 6)=20 some can't afford it, 7) some have stopped modeling the PRR (I = personally know two of these), 8) some died, and 9) some have = lost=20 interest.  I'm sure = there's=20 more (but I don't really need to hear them) - most fall into = reasons=20 1-5.
 
I'm hoping that these comments = wrap up the=20 subject and I personally hope it doesn't bring a raft of = replies, I=20 think it has all been said. Let's get=20 back to modeling and talking about the real PRR.
 
Thanx.
 
Al
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C41677.75F3D590-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:14 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:14 +0000 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:32:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <033020042201.28382.4069EE2A000C20AA00006EDE2160281302FF8D8D8F9D9B@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: is there any reason the Keystone Modeler couldn't release past articles to the general modeling press on a regular basis. We are currently in discussion with one of the major magazines that wants to run some of our articles in their publication. It would give the Society the publicity and the author some cash. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:37:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <033020042142.7242.4069E9BF000C910700001C4A2160281302FF8D8D8F9D9B@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: We could possibly use some form of display that involves the playing of a video that absolutely must be in color with a lot of action. A backdrop that has horseshoe curve, a large keystone, Penn Station, a GG1 or T1 and lots of color and baseball card type handouts with a picture of a typical PRR locomotive on one side and loco information and society information on the back. We have individuals that from time to time represent the Society at local shows. We did on occasion set up at Timonium. However, at the larger shows we have generally found that there is insufficient ROI. Shows away from home base are expensive and we do not have excess administrative funds. We also need volunteers willing to sit for hours and watch people pass by. All it takes is volunteers and money> Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:53:17 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: RE: [PRR] membership and the TKM From: "Stephen Connell" Subject: [PRR] Re: New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:30:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-ELNK-Trace: cc73afbc4bf82537e9ef466adc09f07e7e972de0d01da94008bb54b045570728b2ab83a895524a47350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It seemed as if the PA Trolley Museum table was very popular at the last Greenburg's train show I went to (in Pittsburgh). It doesn't address the renewal issue, but I think you would reach many new people by having a presence at these type of events. The baseball card idea is cool, but ideally you want them to sign up right there and then. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: New society membership From: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:42:24 +0000 We in industry have the unenviable task sometimes of manning booths at a variety of shows. To that end there are companies that manufacture displays that range from a table top and backdrop type display that can be carried in a large mailing tube through room sized displays that cost a fortune. We could possibly use some form of display that involves the playing of a video that absolutely must be in color with a lot of action. A backdrop that has horseshoe curve, a large keystone, Penn Station, a GG1 or T1 and lots of color and baseball card type handouts with a picture of a typical PRR locomotive on one side and loco information and society information on the back. Each show could have a different engine and the set could be on sale at the booth for a minimal charge of say $1.00. That should more than cover the cost of the printing and shipping the booth. Above all the people in the booth need to be aggresive in pursuing people in the aisles and enthusiastic about selling the P ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:54:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Al and list, As I said yesterday, I take my small N scale railroad to two shows per year.. I might to to Pensacola too if they ask me.. Since it is PRR oriented I would be willing to add a poster and membership applications to the Society to my display, along with the WGH giveaways I usually hand out. If I'm trying to sell model railroading, I might as well try to sell membership in PRRT&HS, too. While I'd prefer a poster sent from HQ, I could print one off from an image e-mailed to me.. If we could get someone to do this at every train show, the results might be sizeable. Anyone else interested? Gregg Mahlkov #7418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] New society membership > Re: We could possibly use some form of display that involves the > playing of a video that absolutely must be in color with a lot of > action. A backdrop that has horseshoe curve, a large keystone, Penn > Station, a GG1 or T1 and lots of color and baseball card type handouts > with a picture of a typical PRR locomotive on one side and loco > information and society information on the back. > > We have individuals that from time to time represent the Society at > local shows. We did on occasion set up at Timonium. However, at the > larger shows we have generally found that there is insufficient ROI. > Shows away from home base are expensive and we do not have excess > administrative funds. We also need volunteers willing to sit for hours > and watch people pass by. > > All it takes is volunteers and money> > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:36:11 -0600 From: Dayna Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] New society membership From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Model Storage Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:21:55 -0500 From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Storage Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:03:29 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mark Taylor asked: My question is, the brass models that I have come wrapped in a plastic bag then surrounded by a foam insert, is this bag necessary?, and if so what type of plastic bag would be good to use. What is the bags purpose? The bag keeps the foam insert from reacting to the model's paint and sticking to the model. If this happens, it'll ruin the paint job. You can order replacement bags from Reboxx: http://www.reboxx.com/accessories.htm Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:53 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR Interest From: Dominic Mazoch From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:50:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Storage Mark the plastic bag protects the model from the foam. Newer brass models may not have this problem but some of the ones from the 70's and 80's had a problem with the foam deteriorating which ended up sticking to the brass item inside. Worst case I have seen is actual etching of the brass by the foam .Only way to clean up the model is complete disassembly and soaking it in laquer thinner to dissolve the foam. Alco models foam seems to be the worst culprit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken McCorry --part1_1e1.1ca3812e.2d9bb622_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Mark the=20= plastic bag protects the model from the foam. Newer brass models may not hav= e this problem but some of the ones from the 70's and 80's had a problem wit= h the foam deteriorating which ended up sticking to the brass item inside. W= orst case I have seen is actual etching of the brass by the foam .Only way t= o clean up the model is complete disassembly and soaking it in laquer thinne= r to dissolve the foam.  Alco models foam seems to be the worst culprit= . --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------  Ken McCorry


--part1_1e1.1ca3812e.2d9bb622_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Plastic and Foam on brass Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:43:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2004 13:43:11.0518 (UTC) FILETIME=[1BC30BE0:01C41726] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Mark, I agree with you about the cost of brass replacement boxes. They can be very expensive. Concerning wrapping brass models in plastic, this is a really good idea. As a buyer of used brass I have run into my share of foam damage due to negligent or non existent wrapping to separate the model from the foam. The models of yesteryear were not packed with the thought that the foam would ruin the model and who is to say that the models packed in foam today are not the ruined models of tomorrow. I have not seen any manufacture of vintage brass that had foam that would not deteriorate in some fashion. A few of my favorite decomposing or dye killing foam examples are: Red Ball - Howell Day - total disintegration and infestation of the model with what now looks like ground foam for scenery. West Side Models - Their own version of Creeping Red Crud - the dye comes out and sticks to the model making it appear to have a tropical disease. When you see red in their box, look for more red on the model. Another variation- the old wrap the plastic around the model with the manufacturers print facing the model trick. I.E. "I now have a model with hundreds of little Daiyoung or PFM stamped names all over it". One has to be very careful to determine that the printed side on the plastic goes to the outside. I choose to replace it with plain plastic wrap on a model that gets handled often and place the originals under the foam so they won't get lost. (when you resell some folks buy the boxes it seams rather than the trains) Reboxx even makes their own version of the branded plastic so it can mess up things with Reboxx stamped all over it. Another thing I have done a few times to lower cost of re-boxing brass is to shop for used brass boxes. This may give some folks a heart attack, but I will for my own use, buy a used brass empty box and place another kind of model in it. A very good condition $8.00 box sure beats a $45.00 box any day. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic and Foam on brass MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: RE: Foam and Wrappers. Of course it is best to keep a model (at least your most prized possessions) in its original box when not in use. That way layout dust and display cabinet dust can't do any damage. But on the other hand, how and where the box with the loco is stored comes into play as well. It was mentioned that the foam from several older importers had problems. Gem Imports in my opinion is the worse. That stuff broke down and resembled a wet gritty sponge that did nothing but damage. ReBoxx sells the foam seperately as well so that is an option too. I also come across another problem. The plastic wrappers seem like a good thing but actually, may cause its own problem. Again, it depends on how the box is stored. You ever see plastic sweat? Not nice on a locomotive finish. Most newer importers (Key, Overland, Sunset, etc.) wrap their locos and cars, which are more or less 80% factory painted these days, with sheets of tissue prior to the plastic wrap. I have done this myself off and on for years after I had learned from someone else that it was best to do this. But in the end, it is the enviorment where the loco is stored is the long term factor. By all means don't store them in the boxes in a damp basement. You are better off leaving them on the layout if that is the case. Just keep them covered with newspaper or whatever when not in use.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:28:46 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Renewals, TKM and volunteers Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: "You are volunteers; now we're going to tell you how we want you to do your jobs." The small group of folks who put together The Keystone Modeler is a dedicated bunch. Let me urge caution those who are not involved in it (and who may have even opposed it) against some "executive imposed decision" that modifies TKM away from the creators' original concept without the active consent of those volunteers. I have seen it happen in too many organizations; "The Board" blithely volunteers one or more members' time, or imposes restrictions/constraints, or changes in direction. Yes, the Board has the right to do that (or many other foolish things), but it causes the volunteer effort to become less over time. The real question is, what do Al, Elden, Greg, Jack, et al. want TKM to be? Because they are doing the work, their opinions should carry greater weight than the opinions of sideline nitpickers. TKM has been well-received, and should not fall victim to organizational nonsense. Oh -- and back when I received my partially-hidden renewal notice, I immediately thought, "Oh, oh - they're going to have a response problem." It usually takes three notices to get best results in magazine-land. Vas you effer in Zinzinnati? Zee you dere. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:13 -0600 Subject: [PRR] New P&LE book From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:13 -0600 Subject: [PRR] New P&LE book From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] New P&LE book Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:36:48 +0000 From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:52:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/31/04 TO: Al Buchan and whoever is interested > > > I guess you're going to get a lot of "here's my two cents worth" so, here's > my two cents worth. > > TKM - password protected & members only. You idea about using a "teaser" > for the non-member was excellent. > > Definitely send a renewal notice in the U.S. mail. > Now a personal observation. Those of you who are so inclined, like me, need to get your two cents worth said and then move on to other things. I think "we" will have beaten this horse to death in another couple days. Long live the PRR & PRRT&HS!!! > ob Martin > --part1_51.3ca0e078.2d9c514e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
TO:  Al Buchan and whoever is interested


I guess you're going to get a lot of "here's my two cents worth" so,=20= here's my two cents worth.

TKM - password protected & members only.  You idea about using=20= a "teaser" for the non-member was excellent.

Definitely send a renewal notice in the U.S. mail.  

Now a personal observation.  Those of you who are so inclined, like= me, need to get your two cents worth said and then move on to other things.=  I think "we" will have beaten this horse to death in another couple d= ays.

Long live the PRR & PRRT&HS!!!

B
ob Martin
5911

 --part1_51.3ca0e078.2d9c514e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] New P&LE book Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:06:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <033120041536.19858.406AE5900006300B00004D922158766720FF929097D1@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben, Re: the P&LE Freight Equipment Volume 1 Gondolas. The P&LE flyer sez early 1900s to the road's end in 1992. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Never mind the renewal form ... where the H..L is my Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:38:38 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, thanks for the reply. ON the subject of the renewal form ... if it wasn't for the PRRTHS website e-commerce pages I wouldn't have had a renewal form. April Fool's day tomorrow and I still haven't seen hide nor hair of the Keystone. Any other Brits in the group having the same trouble? Regards, JHW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "John H. Wright" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM > > Most think the inclusion of the renewal notice in The Keystone last > fall was a mistake and that it should have been a direct mailing. > > It's not my place to elaborate, but you will be hearing more shortly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:52:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Special Run -- N Scale X29 Merchandise Service Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <1C91F804-833C-11D8-9137-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The PRR X29 in "Merchandise Service" livery was used between freight stations for "less than car load" service. The paint scheme depicted was applied to X29 cars beginning in 1950. These cars typically ran in the LCL symbol freights but certainly could have been found elsewhere. Red Caboose has, to date, made two runs of 12 road numbers of this car. Many desire more road numbers, but sales of the second run of 12 numbers have stagnated (at Red Caboose) that a third run isn't likely any time soon. I have contacted Red Caboose and they will do a special run for me, of 12 numbers, if I commit to selling the entire run. So here I am...taking reservations to see if there is enough interest. I am taking the special run one step further and will supply these cars with MicroTrains trucks and couplers from the factory! The SRP has been raised (by Red Caboose) to $15.95 with their traditional truck and coupler and to $19.95 with the MicroTrains truck and coupler. I am offering reservations at 25% off. If you reserve a full set of 12 the discount will be 30% off. For details, please see... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-QuickShow?RDCAB-RN- 17026-SR ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:07:50 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] New P&LE gondola book -- includes PRR content Greetings to Don, Jerry and the List: I, too, saw a draft copy of this book, and was impressed by how thoroughly the book discussed the relationship between the railroad and its customer, the steel industry. The change from wooden to steel gondolas wasn't all about durability and maintenance of the carbody -- the steel industry was starting to load hot rolled steel in railroad cars while still hot. Obviously, a problem for wooden cars. Also, note that there's genuine PRR content in this publication -- P&LE bought a group of later PRR gondolas (50s-60s, I forget the PRR class) secondhand, and the book covers them just like those that were built new for P&LE by Pullman-Standard, Greenville, or Despatch Shops. In fact, one photo shows a former PRR gondola at Conway Yard, painted for P&LE. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ... admitting to being a former P&LE employee and therefore a onetime member of the Green Team. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: >It ain't PRR, but I know some of you, like me, are interested in other >northeastern lines, and the P&LE interchanged with the PRR, so here is some >info for you. > >The P&LRRHS will soon release "P&LE's Gondola Cars." I reviewed this book >for one of the authors and was much impressed. It is a class by class >discussion and is replete with photos. Of particular interest to me was the >number of photos of interiors and their loads. > >It isn't listed on the PLERRHS web site yet, but probably will be soon. If >anyone wants advance info, contact me offline. > > > >Don Harper >Marine Lab >Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston >Galveston, TX 77551 >409/740-4540 > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------080302070603010806010100 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to Don, Jerry and the List:

I, too, saw a draft copy of this book, and was impressed by how thoroughly the book discussed the relationship between the railroad and its customer, the steel industry. The change from wooden to steel gondolas wasn't all about durability and maintenance of the carbody -- the steel industry was starting to load hot rolled steel in railroad cars while still hot. Obviously, a problem for wooden cars.

Also, note that there's genuine PRR content in this publication -- P&LE bought a group of later PRR gondolas (50s-60s, I forget the PRR class) secondhand, and the book covers them just like those that were built new for P&LE by Pullman-Standard, Greenville, or Despatch Shops. In fact, one photo shows a former PRR gondola at Conway Yard, painted for P&LE.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
... admitting to being a former P&LE employee and therefore a onetime member of the Green Team.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote:
It ain't PRR, but  I know some of you, like me, are interested in other 
northeastern lines, and the P&LE interchanged with the PRR, so here is some
info for you.

The P&LRRHS will soon release "P&LE's Gondola Cars."  I reviewed this book
for one of the authors and was much impressed.  It is a class by class
discussion and is replete with photos.  Of particular interest to me was the
number of photos of interiors and their loads.

It isn't listed on the PLERRHS web site yet, but probably will be soon.  If
anyone wants advance info, contact me offline.



Don Harper
Marine Lab
Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------080302070603010806010100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: MicroTrains has announced a PRR H31B. Is it, or isn't it... http://www.micro-trains.com/rp_57100.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:35:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, List, Why do these companies insist on placing these rather rare slogans ie "Buy War Bonds" on their models? And who knows if this particular class of car even had it. Give me a normal everyday looking critter any day of the week. I didn't dive into the site for info but do they plan on producing a non slogan car too? Not that it matters, I don't even model N scale anyway. Just a pet peeve.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:52:30 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:04:31 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:12:31 +0000 Message-Id: <144763CC-8366-11D8-B903-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:52:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In the days before cars were specifically created for iron ore (like G39's, etc.) it was often run in hoppers typically used for coal. But, because of the density of ore, only a "scoop" was loaded directly over each truck, leaving the car largely empty. I recall a published photo somewhere looking down into a hopper load. In 1954 the westbound ore traffic really picked up with the opening of the new pier in Philly. "Pennsy Power" documents that M1's were the normal power until the end of steam, and the 1957 Trains issue on The Mountain shows several ore extras with helpers, etc. Question: The hoppers used in this service, might they typically have been H21a's? Or is there any reason H21a's would have been excluded from this service? At the time I believe the H21a was one of the most prevalent hoppers on the system. Stands to reason H21a's would head east with coal and return west with ore... at least until the ore cars were built. We've discussed the traffic in the past, but not down to specifics of what car classes were involved. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:35:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I have a photo of two M1s leaving Enola with a ore drag in 1954. The hoppers are the "GLa" class. It's a "looking down" shot from the Iron Bridge. One bucket full over each truck. Also seen photos of mid 1950s PRR ore trains with Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range ore cars. I'm not sure if PRR was using Bessemer & Lake Erie cars in the mid 1950s. But they did use them for ore service. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson Modeling 1961-1971 PRR-Penn Central ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:33:41 -0800 From: Jerry @ Pennsy [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Subject: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic From: "DAVID FARLOW" Subject: [PRR] PRR Rushville Indiana Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:53:09 -0500 Does anyone know if the PRR had a passenger depot in Rushville. Some = have told me that the B&O depot located to the east of the PRR diamond = was used as the "tower" and a passenger ticket office by the PRR. That = depot was built in 1911. Would there have been any passenger trains on = this PRR line from Cambridge City / Dublin Junction at that point? David Farlow ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C41759.CA8664F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know if the PRR had a = passenger depot=20 in Rushville.  Some have told me that the B&O depot located to = the east=20 of the PRR diamond was used as the "tower" and a passenger ticket office = by the=20 PRR.  That depot was built in 1911.  Would there have been any = passenger trains on this PRR line from Cambridge City / Dublin Junction = at that=20 point?
 
David = Farlow 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C41759.CA8664F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Hammerhead modeling info. Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:26:22 -0500 After conversations a while back regarding hammerhead models I got this = bit of info from the manufacturer of conversion kits. =20 "The hammerhead conversion kit is $12.00 plus $1.50 postage. Set up to = fit the" MDC RS3, but will go on Hobbytown, Atlas or Stewart. Specify LV = or WM as the corner Number boards are different. Guil MACK, Jr.=20 Tiger Valley Models 1070 County Road 23 "Phelps, NY 14532 " Also check this site for vintage photos by Bill Volkmer and shots of it = in LVRR livery. Make sure to check the topics at the bottom of the page. http://www.rochnrhs.org/rgvrrm_lv211.html Lynn ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C41766.D1C26EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
After conversations a while back = regarding=20 hammerhead models I got this bit of info from the manufacturer of=20 conversion kits.
 
"The hammerhead conversion kit is = $12.00 plus $1.50=20 postage. Set up to fit the" MDC RS3, but will go on Hobbytown, Atlas or = Stewart.=20 Specify LV or WM as the corner Number boards are different.
Guil MACK, Jr.
Tiger Valley Models
1070 County Road 23
"Phelps, NY 14532    = "
 
Also check this site for vintage photos = by Bill=20 Volkmer and shots of it in LVRR
livery.      =20  Make sure to check the topics at the bottom of the = page.
 
http://www.rochnrhs.or= g/rgvrrm_lv211.html
 
Lynn
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C41766.D1C26EA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Trucks Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:07:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I am not in N scale, so I have no first hand experience with these = trucks. However, based on the photo, they appear to have the same distorted low profile of the Rivarossi and ConCor trucks in HO. If so, there is no prototype for them at all! I have several theories as to why this misshapen truck has plagued the = model RR world for decades. One theory is that AHM/Rivarossi originally = offered its cars with monstrously over sized flanges. To keep from raising the = car too high and having a noticeably oversized wheel silhouette, they = produced the truck with 31" wheels! In effect, instead of enlarging the flanges, they reduced the wheel tread. The result would have been that the = truck sideframe dragged on the track, so they reduced the height of the = sideframe! Now everything about the truck was wrong, not just the wheels. The other theory is that in the otherwise useful series of passenger car plans published in the 60s and 70s by RMC by Craig Bossler and George Trager, the truck diagrams were similarly distorted. I suspect it was a mistake made once and then copied on to all the successive plans. If = these plans became the reference source for Rivarossi, it could also explain = the G-d awful trucks we have had to replace ever since. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:53 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war=20 lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of=20 these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about=20 Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are=20 Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly=20 the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am=20 trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel=20 Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using=20 these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:02:01 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <404E6E15.DF98B29E@comcast.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: See also p. 43 of the newest "Keystone." -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 8:24 PM To: PRR-Talk; PRR-FAX Subject: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad In today's Inquirer's Local News (Philadelphia & its Suburbs) section on page 12, there's an article concerning the research being done by William Watson and John Ahtes, professors at Immaculata College, about the mass grave of 57 P&C workers at Duffy's Cut in Malvern, PA. The remains were placed in Malvern after the workers fatally contracted black diphtheria and is marked by a stone memorial. The professors are investigating if the location of the gravesite is correct based on papers inherited by Watson and his twin brother Frank. Their grandfather, Joseph Tripician, was the personal secretary to Martin Clement, President of the PRR. Mr. Tripician removed the papers from Penn Central's vault in 1970. Sounds like a good idea for an "Observation Car" tour. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:42:52 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:43:24 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:22:16 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Peter, I would be very careful in speaking ill of the one of an SPF'S m= ost revered locos. In some quarters this line of comment could get you tarr= ed and feathered Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Peter Weiglin=0D Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM=0D To: PRR-Talk=0D Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's=0D =0D Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high qualit= y. The=0D only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1=0D locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscap= e. The=0D Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomoti= ve are=0D indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would= it not=0D have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara=0D type engines?=0D =0D Peter Weiglin=0D =0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_4XEDCJD0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1"
 Peter,  I would be very careful in speaking ill of the on= e of an SPF'S most revered locos.   In some quarters this line = of comment could get you tarred and feathered <BG>  Jim
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Wednesday, M= arch 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM
Subject: [PRR] Key= stone and T1's
 
Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high q= uality. The
only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with informati= on on the T1
locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power lan= dscape. The
Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable loc= omotive are
indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, = would it not
have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson a= nd Niagara
type engines?
 
Peter Weiglin
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
 
.
--------------Boundary-00=_4XEDCJD0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:19:01 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the List: The Baldwin M1b engines 6700-6709 were striped for passenger service and equipped with steam lines, but were never permanently assigned. They consistently lost steam and failed on the road almost from the day they were delivered, though for some reason that the company never figured out, this didn't happen in freight service (nor did it happen with the M1s in passenger service). PRR intended to run them in through passenger service Harrisburg-Columbus, but they racked up road failures (20 minutes to an hour's detention was quite common) at least as often as T1s did a decade later. In the early 1930s, PRR assigned a road foreman to ride three of the M1b's to figure out a fix to make them work in passenger service, but eventually gave up. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Jerry Britton wrote: > On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > >> There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for >> use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing >> this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. > > > Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, > so I will now cross post. > > According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's > initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) > were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for > the plain M1's. Anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: [PRR] Pushers, was Re: Harrisburg yard Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:12:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Harrisburg yard ... > > Stauffer notes > westbound ore with two M1's at head and an I1 at rear on ore trains for > the whole trip over the Middle Division in 1954. > I've never paid much attention to it in photos, etc., but I seem to remember reading in a rule book or something that if a rear pusher was used, it should always be two locomotives at the rear. Am I remembering correctly? Was this changed at some point? ------- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 01:09 PM, Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that=20= > milk cans were transported on the PRR? =A0Would someone define "milk=20= > cars" for me please? =A0Were they reefers, insulated boxes, or plain=20= > boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were they=20 > tank cars specifically used for hauling milk? =A0Did PRR have cars=20 > specifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic=20 > reefers, insulated boxes, plain boxes? > > Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the=20 > creamery and what detail stuff I'll need. I think it depends on the railroad, the shipper, and the receiver. I've seen tank cars and the like on New England railroads. I think on=20 the Pennsy it tended to be more along the line of reefers. In=20 Coloroso's book on the Elmira Branch (or was it Gunnarson's Northern=20 Central Railway?) there is mention of picking up milk cans along the=20 way. If each producer has only a few cans, then a reefer would do the job.=20 But if they were a huge shipper, tanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:38:50 -0500 Dave: THANK YOU for the information. I think that the case of the mystery = train symbol has been solved. I do have one question. What does the = "CB&Q Classification" mean? That the train was classified or blocked for = CB&Q or did it refer to the name of the train itself? "AC" may have been a symbol that the "Q" originated for this train and = the Pennsy adopted it. Perhaps "AC" on the CB&Q may have stood for = "Atlantic Coast." Interesting to note that this train (AC-1 and AC-2) ran on the PRR = throughout all of 1965 but was never mentioned in the ETT's. Ted Andrews P.S.: I better get more Burlington cars!!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 8:25 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 Gents..... =20 I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train operated between Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the merger. I have a wheel report for the train and it is a "CB&Q Classification" Most of the cars in this train are bound for the west coast. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C407C2.020D6A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave:
 
THANK YOU for the information. I think that the case of the mystery = train=20 symbol has been solved. I do have one question. What does the "CB&Q=20 Classification" mean? That the train was classified or blocked for = CB&Q or=20 did it refer to the name of the train itself?
 
"AC" may have been a symbol that the "Q" originated for this train = and the=20 Pennsy adopted it. Perhaps "AC" on the CB&Q may have stood for = "Atlantic=20 Coast."
 
Interesting to note that this train (AC-1 and AC-2) ran on the PRR=20 throughout all of 1965 but was never mentioned in the ETT's.
 
 
Ted Andrews
 
P.S.: I better get more Burlington cars!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net
To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 8:25=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol = AC-1
=

Gents.....
       &n= bsp;    =20 =
           &nb= sp;     =20 I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train
operated = between=20 Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the
merger. I have a = wheel=20 report for the train and it is a "CB&Q
Classification"  = Most of=20 the cars in this train are bound for the west
coast. Hope this=20 helps.

Dave = Hopson

       =20 =


-------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C407C2.020D6A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Milk cars Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:36:53 -0600 Photos of the wooden Supplee cars abound. The Pfaudler cars are also = well represented (can't remember which dairy or dairies) , in photo (see = the flyer with one of the sound LP albums if you can get one) and in = video. The National Car (I absent-mindedly referred to them as North = American Car) flats with tanks also in photo and especially video.=20 I'm not sure if I have seen the Borden butterdish cars in Pennsy = photos. But the R50b was well-used in this service, as others have = pointed out. There are also some early video shots which include what = appear to be milk cars from NYC-Rutland-New England roads in Pennsy = trains (see Herron videos). At least through the July, 1951 consists, milk cars were much in = evidence, including Chicago-New York on the Pennsylvania Limited. I = wonder how many of the R50b cars we saw in photos carried milk.One was = carried from Kendalville, Indiana in a freight and another from Berne = (Indiana?) in PH-3 and both transferred to the Gotham Limited at Ft. = Wayne, to train 96 in Pittsburgh. Consist data only, no photos from the = period that I have seen. How late the private owner milk cars appeared in Pennsy consists is yet = to be determined, though many of the above cars were still in the = January 1953 OR of Passenger Train Equipment. Specifically mentioned are = Borden (27 cars) , Bowman(29), General American Pfaudler (237), , = National Car (67), Supplee-Wills-Jones (9) , and Whiting Milk (4). =20 Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CENTGA@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: [PRR] re: Milk cars Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it = probably happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or = freight trains. Todd Horton ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C407C1.BC0B3470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Photos of the wooden Supplee  cars = abound.  The Pfaudler cars are also well represented (can't = remember which=20 dairy or dairies) , in photo (see the flyer with one of the sound LP = albums if=20 you can get one) and in video.  The National Car = (I absent-mindedly=20 referred to them as North American Car) flats with tanks also in photo = and=20 especially video. 
 
  I'm not sure if I have seen the = Borden=20 butterdish cars in Pennsy photos.  But the R50b was well-used in = this=20 service, as others have pointed out.  There are also some early = video shots=20 which include what appear to be milk cars from NYC-Rutland-New England = roads in=20 Pennsy trains (see Herron videos).
 
At least through the July, 1951 = consists, milk cars=20 were much in evidence, including Chicago-New York on the Pennsylvania = Limited. I=20 wonder how many of the R50b cars we saw in photos carried milk.One was = carried=20 from Kendalville, Indiana in a freight and another from  Berne = (Indiana?)=20 in PH-3 and both transferred to the Gotham Limited at Ft. Wayne, to = train 96 in=20 Pittsburgh. Consist data only, no photos from the period that I have=20 seen.
 
How late the private owner = milk cars appeared=20 in Pennsy consists is yet to be determined,  though many of the = above cars=20 were still in the January 1953 OR of Passenger Train Equipment. = Specifically=20 mentioned are Borden (27 cars) , = Bowman(29),=20 General American Pfaudler (237), , National Car (67), = Supplee-Wills-Jones (9) ,=20 and Whiting Milk (4). 
 
Bob Zoeller
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CENTGA@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 9:26=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] re: Milk = cars

Bob, Have you = found any=20 photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probably happened but I = don't=20 recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight trains. Todd = Horton=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C407C1.BC0B3470-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Specific gravity of milk and related topics Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:52:36 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: If you mean carrying milk, a good question. But don't forget they were converted to chemical use after milk service. That becomes another question (when and where---actually two questions) , not an answer :-) Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" > Of course this does little to help the fellow who wants to know if he > can park a Borden milk tank car somewhere on his layout. Sorry about that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Was L1's as Snappers, now "Keystone" inquiry Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:04:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gang, I seen two references now to the new "Keystone" and I note that its cover is on the Society's website as of March 6th. I just joined this January, should I be expecting one in my mailbox, or should I have gotten it already? Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:18:34 -0600 Jeff, those are separate line items: Pullman lettering (green car) and = PRR postwar. Not connected.=20 Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: J. Smith=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:00 PM Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline list the PRR cars as painted in = the Pullman Green Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War). What exactly does = this mean? I always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with = gold stripes and lettering. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40940.BDED50E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jeff, those are separate line items: = Pullman=20 lettering (green car) and PRR postwar.  Not connected. =
 
Bob Zoeller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 J.=20 Smith
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 = 9:00=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR = 12-1=20 sleepers

The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline = list the PRR=20 cars as painted in the Pullman = Green=20 Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War).  What exactly does this = mean?  I=20 always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold = stripes and=20 lettering.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40940.BDED50E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:34:31 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:23:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mark asked: > After looking at Branchlines web site I didn't see anywhere that said the > cars were to be painted in Pullman green. As someone who is modeling the > 50's I hoped that the cars were going to be painted in tuscan > red,Pennsylvania on the letterboards,and striping above and below the > windows. So I looked in the Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Paint and > Lettering book published by the PRRT&HS and here is what I found. The body > should be light tuscan, roof and trucks-black, Letterboards 1948-1968 - > Pennsylvania, and striping ( one above window and two below) 1947 1/2 - > 1968 > being gold leaf or imitation gold enamel. Are we correct to assume that > Branchline's release will be decorated this way. Mark, I asked Bill this question directly and he replied that all of the paint schemes listed for owners other than Pullman will be in the post 1947 schemes, so the PRR cars will be as you describe. Note that the tuscan used by Pullman was more like the pre-war PRR color than the post-war PRR Tuscan, so the Branchline cars should come near to matching the pre-war Bachman P70sa or Walthers R50B (less brown, more red than the PRR Tuscan of the same period). Unfortunately, these scemes are useless for me but hey, I can paint and letter to my hearts content. Bill did indicate that he will be releasing the earlier PRR schemes with tuscan red and PULLMAN lettering. In addition, he is looking at the possibility of one of the "non-betterment" cars that got the two tone streamline scheme (aka FOM) such as Daniel Webster, but I'm not going to wait for him...that's going to be the first Branchline 12-1 I do ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:49:01 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Harry--You asked-- > > Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 > locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? > I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most > prevalent in a single area of assignment. > It would have to be the 90F82. There were also, of course, but not nearly as many, 210F82a/b (these had welded construction), 130F82 and 110F82 (mostly around Northumberland and the Elmira Branch), and a few 210F82 (rivets). >Another thought is what would be > the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the > lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the > many flavors the class was assigned over their life. > Still has to be the 90F82. > >Another question, was > the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I > locomotives? > No. They were built with stokers. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:23:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR R50b express reefers have a low profile for just that reason. = That's also why the X29 was chosen to for express service. Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ed Mentz Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:46 PM To: eworkman@arrival.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic geez... color me confused... I thought that the only access from the = west to NYC was from the north & east of the hudson... (except floating across). = I=20 thought that trains from the west had to go up to the Pokeepsie bridge, = now=20 long since burned out, and now all the way to Selkirk.. Sumpin about = the=20 Hudson river tunnels being to small fer freight????????? Ed From: Ed Workman To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 At 07:39 AM 3/15/2004, Hom wrote: >NOT TRUE. The Erie didn't have a direct connection into NYC My Point, exactly. If it comes to the river in a passenger train, why = wait=20 for a carfloat. And thanks for the Thompson-esque reply too ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - 4 plans to choose = from!=20 http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:37:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 09:24 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Broadway Limited Imports announces HO scale USRA 2-8-2 light Mikado > > Broadway Limited Imports, 601 Shenandoah Village Dr., Ste. 9E/F,=20 > Waynesboro, VA 22980, has announced that it will be releasing an HO=20 > scale United States Railroad Administration 2-8-2 light Mikado this=20 > summer. The model, which can operate on both Digital Command Control-=20= > and DC-powered layouts, will feature a QSI Quantum sound system,=20 > five-pole can motor with flywheel, die-cast metal locomotive and=20 > tender chassis, detailed tender underbody and cab interior, RP-25=20 > metal wheels, and operating headlight. Broadway Limited will offer the=20= > model with and without traction tires in two road numbers each of the=20= > following road names: Baltimore & Ohio, Lehigh & Hudson River Ry.,=20 > Louisville & Nashville, New York Central, Pennsylvania RR, Southern=20 > Ry., and Union Pacific. A painted but unlettered version will also be=20= > available. The manufacturer=92s suggested retail price for the model = is=20 > $299.99. This was actually announced several weeks ago and the info above is old=20= as they have updated it. The original plan was to release the full=20 slate of road names with traction tires and another full slate of road=20= names without traction tires. BLI has updated the product that it will ship with both in one box.=20 What is unknown, however, is what will be pre-installed on the model=20 from the factory. This is kind of like the T1 shipping with two sets of blind drivers,=20 but including flanged drivers in the same box. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:14:20 -0500 From: Mark Taylor [mailto:taylorsouthwood@msn.com] Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:38:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion Thanks From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > As always, I know that I can count on the this list's aid to get an answer > to one of my questions, thanks Bruce. Chris you are probably right about > buying a ruler to make the job easier, but at this time a little figuring > on > the calculator beat driving 20 miles to my local hobby shop. I will invest > in one the next time I'm there for sure. Thanks again Mark In addition to the scale rule, consider a scale caliper - it can really help out in a lot of situations. I know because I NEED one Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana (CORRECTION) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:41:19 -0500 PRR-Listers: I meant to write that this took place on June 29, 1965. Sorry! Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ted Andrews=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:49 AM Subject: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana On this date, the first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at Warsaw was = made. Engine No. 6501 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds = at 3:28 pm. Highball!! Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40CBC.67349220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
PRR-Listers:
 
I meant to write that this took place on June 29, 1965.
 
Sorry!
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Andrews
To: PRR Talk
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 = 12:49=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] A new GE through = Warsaw,=20 Indiana

On = this date, the=20 first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at=20 Warsaw was made. Engine = No. 6501=20 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at 3:28 pm.

 

Highball!!

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40CBC.67349220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:54:42 -0600 Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy. See http://www.mrhobby.com/ for more. Pricey but great stuff! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Les Zody=20 To: prrtalk=20 Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread = I'm looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue = that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from = Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help = would be great. Ty for the help Les z ------=_NextPart_000_08A7_01C40CD7.6AE43860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy.  = See
http://www.mrhobby.com/  for = more. =20 Pricey but great stuff!
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Les = Zody=20
To: prrtalk
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 = 10:31=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] cement (resin = glue)

Hi All,
  I have searched the archives and am not coming = up with=20 the thread I'm looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a = type of=20 glue that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think = someone from=20 Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help = would be=20 great.
=
           &n= bsp;=20 Ty for the help
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     =20 Les z
------=_NextPart_000_08A7_01C40CD7.6AE43860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jean Gagne" Subject: Re: [PRR] NF-6 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:47:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2004 17:47:15.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CFFC3B0:01C40D11] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In 1960, livestock handled by FW-8 were feed and watered at Pittsburgh Stock Yards. Still in 1960, NF-6 eastern terminus was Harsimus Cove, but it did stop at Waverly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:35 AM Subject: [PRR] NF-6 > Ted writes, about NF-6: > > > 1. What was the eastern terminus of this train? > > 2. How was it different from FW-8, a conventional live stock train? > > 3. What did Non-Feed mean? > > From previous posts (Bill Volkmer I think), I had the eastern terminus of > this train as Waverly, NJ. I am assuming that the "Feed-Water" monicker of > FW-8 meant that this train stopped to feed the livestock at some point (not > sure where). "Non-Feed" meant the idea was to get the train over the road > in less than 36 hours, which was the federal time limit for which livestock > could be carried without being fed/watered. > > Interesting it didn't run after April- it stays in ETT's for the following > years, and by 1967 in the Western Region ETT is allowed to operate at 60 > mph, like other hotshots. I wonder if it's operation was somewhat seasonal? > > Fred > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:23:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Norm, Most bulk wines were shipped in tank cars. Thomas used to sell a six compartment car in HO years ago. I still have it but the frame was Zamac and broke. Since this is PRR-talk I have an interesting story. I called on Roma Wine in Baltimore, which received tank cars from California. Well, the siding had a slight grade, requiring the crew to set the hand brakes on the cars. One time, the crew got too smart for its own good and parked the "empty' in Calvert St. Yard to see what was left - and it was almost 50 gallons. Wasn't long before any time an empty was pulled there was a "yard sale" off the back of the N6b of cheap wine. Wasn't long after that the the "revenoors" caught up with them. They lost their jobs, don't know if they served any time or not. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 9:09 AM Subject: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia > Wilen brothers at MP 83.4 was a bottler of primarily California wines. Anybody have any knowledge of how these were shipped in bulk? I am assuming barrels in box cars but could one of those wine tank cars have shown up there on occasion? Thanks for any input. Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:21:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kennedy Airport to Penn Station From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:41:41 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.199.98.55] at Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:41:41 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: You are correct , Franklin is down river, sorry for the error. Joy is Joy Mining Machinery now, Joy Technologies went by the wayside some years ago. Now part of Joy Global as is P&H, we are underground they are surface. www.joy.com . Plant is still very much alive. One of many we have. explain the humor you speak of. best regards, David Campbell Norton, VA ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area > --- William Bigler wrote: > > In the late ''40's early '50's there were still lots of refineries > > shipping petroleum products by rail in the area. There were lots > > of other industries in the area also. I lived in Franklin until > > 1950. I remember Pennzoil and Wolfs Head in Oil City. Was Quaker > > State also located there? > > Yes. "The Big Q". They too bailed out some years ago. I think, but am > not sure, that Quaker State and Pennzoil merged, or both were > swallowed by something else. > > > Franklin, just up the Allegheny River, > > Down the river, actually. > > > .... Joy Manufacturing.... > > They are still in business, but not sure whether they still have a > > factory in Franklin. > > I think they now call themselves Joy Technologies (which can be a > source of humor if you think about it carefully). Last I was there a > long time ago the Franklin factory looked deserted, but not derelect. > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:04:09 -0800 JH was on the north side of the railroad on the east side of Henderson = (I think) street. It was on the south side of 6th Street. To my = recollection it was a Brick tower and might have had either a copper = roof or copper bay window. Further east I seem to recall a sand tower. Directly opposite the tower on the south side (The side the tower faced) = was a team track at the foot of 5th Street with a full overhead crane. = The next structure to the south on the east side of Henderson Street was = a fairly modern frieght station (yard office) for "Ballground Yard". Bennett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = =3D were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in = Jersey =3D City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = =3D terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All = this =3D was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=3D20 I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?" I = was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like = copper roofing on it. Was I at JH? I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has = suffered massive redevelopment. I assume the only thing recognizable = from the whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on = the waterfront and is again lit. PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville = IN works, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long = Ohio River Bridge. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C40F23.7859F590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
JH was on the north side of the = railroad on the=20 east side of Henderson (I think) street. It was on  the south side = of 6th=20 Street. To my recollection it was a Brick tower and might have had = either a=20 copper roof or copper bay window. Further east I seem to recall a sand=20 tower.
 
Directly opposite the tower on the = south side (The=20 side the tower faced) was a team track at the foot of 5th Street with a = full=20 overhead crane. The next structure to the south on the east side of = Henderson=20 Street was a fairly modern frieght station (yard office) for "Ballground = Yard".
 
 
Bennett
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 = 9:31=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Harsimus = Cove?

In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 = PM Eastern=20 Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:

RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the = Erie =20 milk cars =3D
were stored on a siding on the South side of = Pavonia Avenue=20 in Jersey =3D
City east of the grade crossing and opposite the = enginehouse=20 and the =3D
terminal throat which were on the north side of = Pavonia Ave.=20 All this =3D
was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus=20 Cove.=3D20


I have to ask the stupid question = "what did=20 JH tower look like?"  I was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a = tower=20 with what looked like copper roofing on it.  Was I at = JH?

I know=20 from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has = suffered=20 massive redevelopment.  I assume the only thing recognizable from = the=20 whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the = waterfront=20 and is again lit.

PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to = Colgate's Jeffersonville IN works, and remains atop the factory just = east of=20 the PRR's mile-long Ohio River Bridge.

Rick Tipton - = Louisville=20 KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical=20 Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR = Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C40F23.7859F590-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:03:35 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH Milk Train Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dominic Mazoch wrote: > > MTH is making a LIRR milk train. Has 2 DD-1's, and 3-4 Shepfield milk cars. O guage 3R with PS-2. Can't run it because it is way beyond )-31 curves, and the cost..... > > Dominic Mazoch Dominic, Both the DD1 and reefers are O-31. I bought a PRR DD1 last year and have no problems with it taking O-31 track along with O-22 Lionel switches. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Form 76, 1884 Edition, Posted Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:39:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <01471CC0-7CD6-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Form 76 posting It's actually more like the equivalent of a CT1000E rather than the system wide CT1000, as it doesn't include Lines West. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Burkey" Subject: [PRR] Email or mailing address for Richard D. Adams? Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <0BBFD900-7CF8-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm wondering if anyone on this list can provide for me an email or postal mailing address for Richard D. Adams. I've been looking for a current address for him for awhile and have been striking out. I'd like to contact him regarding the research work he's done on the Bedford Branch as well as his compilation work regarding the Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain's locomotive roster. I'm even willing to provide him my address if he'd like to contact me instead. Please contact me off-list if you can help. Thanks, Keith Burkey Keith Burkey http://www.bbandbrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: David Wartell Subject: Re: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:38:20 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & the group, I am going to miss the cabin car when they move it, I live about a mile or so from the township building and pass the cabin car every day on the way to and from work. It has been nice seeing that little piece of the Pennsy sitting there. The funny thing about it is that West Hanover only detailed one side of the car. The side facing the road, US Route 22, is lettered while the other side is not. I guess I need to get over there and take those pictures before they move it. Dave Wartell djwartel@comcast.net On Mar 23, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Caboose to get new home > E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards > > Tuesday, March 23, 2004 > > BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN > For The Patriot-News > > West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola > Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. > > That represents a detour from a proposal that would have moved the > caboose to the Lykens Railroad Station. > > After months of considerations by officials, the vintage Pennsylvania > Railroad car has seen a lot of mileage -- and it hasn't left the yard > of the West Hanover Twp. municipal building. > > West Hanover Twp. supervisors voted unanimously last week to donate > the caboose in response to a proposal submitted by East Pennsboro Twp. > Manager Robert Gill. > > East Pennsboro commissioners agreed to make the offer March 3. East > Pennsboro officials plan to place the 1942 railroad car in Adams-Ricci > Community Park at Margo Road and East Penn Drive. > > "When you really boil it down, this is the kind of project we were > hoping to get. This is the perfect ending for this long saga," said > West Hanover Supervisor Robert Ziltz. > > West Hanover Twp. has owned the caboose for more than a decade, but > has sought to move it for months. > > Although West Hanover officials had hoped to rent out the caboose for > festive events such as children's birthday parties, those plans never > really took off, officials said. > > East Pennsboro recently acquired an additional 42 acres for the > Adams-Ricci Community Park, expanding it to a spacious 120-plus acres, > including baseball and soccer fields, and tennis, volleyball and > basketball courts. > > The Historical Society of East Pennsboro Twp., in conjunction with > township officials, is planning a 100th anniversary celebration of the > Enola Railroad Yards in 2005. > > The facility opened in 1905 and utilized up to 67 tracks on 375 acres > at its peak, remaining the township's largest employer until the > 1950s. > > "The caboose would be a great attraction to our festivities. We are a > very proud community, and the railroad is a symbol of our heritage > these last 100 years," said Herb Kruger, president of the historical > society. > > In January, Edward Carney, chairman of the Dauphin County Planning > Commission, asked West Hanover supervisors to grant rights to the > caboose to Lykens Railroad Station. > > The historic station is being renovated into a rail museum with a > nearby trail, a project overseen by the Dauphin County Parks and > Recreation department. > > Although West Hanover officials said they were enthusiastic about > Carney's proposal, it never officially was endorsed by Dauphin County > Commissioners -- and therefore lacked county funding -- by the > township's March 12 bid deadline. > > West Hanover Twp. Manager Michael Rimer said he contacted the county > several times over the winter regarding the caboose. > > "The county was not interested in acquiring a caboose," he said. > > The township also received an offer March 8 from the Lykens Chamber > of Commerce to "relocate the caboose in a very timely manner" to the > Lykens Train Station. > > County commissioners notified West Hanover in a March 12 fax that > they were endorsing "Lykens in its quest to obtain [the] caboose." > > West Hanover supervisors said their first choice had been to donate > the caboose to a municipality. > > East Pennsboro plans to move the caboose to its new site by July. > > West Hanover bought the car in 1993 for $13,910. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "prr-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR regions Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:05:35 -0500 To: "J. Smith" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 5:12 PM, J. Smith wrote: > Would someone please explain to me where the Central Region and the > Eastern Region are. Text descriptions at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/prr_structure_1941-1968.html 1941 Division maps, which hint at regions at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/accountingmaps.ws4d A very vague description is that from Altoona east is the Eastern Region. The Central Region goes from there to beyond Pittsburgh. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, Yep, looks like some horn shaving is in store for future owners of the E7's, unless you can convince them to do it prior to the release....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Re: Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:52:57 -0500 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 8:47 PM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > Now that BLI has posted photos of their HO models, we can identify > that the model most closely reflects the second and third batches of > PRR orders... The BLI road numbers are also from these batches. And I noticed that there are (correctly) two exhaust stacks for the steam generators. A lot of predecessor models only have one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:05:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Loco Models Road Number Size From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 09:21 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > However, when I compare the output to existing Kato or Life Like > models, my type is smaller. I don't have anything that can measure > accurately at that size, but either the computer is doing something > amiss, or the Kato and Life Like numbers are scaled about 12" or so. > Anyone know? We have an answer! When you tell Adobe Illustrator (the software I was using) to set the type to a specific height, it is setting not only the height of the character, but also the white space that would appear between lines. In my test font, if I set type to be 1" high, it would actually be less. I had to set it to be 1.45" high to actually get a 1" height. So, I'll need to keep this in mind when creating N scale 8", 6", and 4.5" (car names) lettering. The good news is I can make them larger than I thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS New England Chapter Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:42:57 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just a reminder for those of you who are (or would like to become) = members of the PRRTHS and live in New England, we are forming a New England Chapter. We will be meeting at the Northshore Model RR Club (http://www.nsmrc.org) 17 April, starting about 11 AM. The club is in Wakefield MA. Some (hopefully) brief business to agree on a charter, officers and a name and then on to the fun. The NS Club is a large, = very well sceniked HO RR set in coal hauling country but including 2 and 3 = track mains for great distances. It is about 11 miles long. Bring down your = Penny models and see them run in this great environment. We can do both DC = and DCC. Time to show off. The club's website has a map and directions. Be there! Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:39:50 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 20:40:53.0908 (UTC) FILETIME=[A20B8540:01C41372] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I must disagree with PDF only. Remember that all don't have the latest PC's. Example: It takes me somewhere around 30 minutes to download with a modem. Those who wish to download HTML should have that available. What about those who don't have HTML and only Text? I'm not the computer whiz, so I guess what I'm saying is - KISS. Keep It Simple! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Fred123R@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:08:26 EST Subject: re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal I completely missed the renewal when it was originally included in the Keystone. I saw the notice published in the following issue, and followed the procedures to renew online. Based on my experience, I would guess that at least a portion of the nonrenewals were people who simply missed the form. Before renewing online, I went back to the previous issue and looked for the form, but couldn't find it. I don't know if it was outside the magazine as a seperate form. If it was, I must have chucked it by accident. I can understand how those who aren't online would have trouble renewing if they missed the form. In regards to TKM: 1) I love it. Is it the reason I joined the Society, no, because I joined well before it was ever started. But I would never quit the Society just because TKM is free. As both an active modeler and someone interested in the prototype history, I appreciate the outstanding articles and information provided in TKM. For me, it enhances my appreciation of the prototype, and provides specific information that cannot and probably would not be found elsewhere. It would be a terrible loss for it to go away. I thank the article contributors and those involved with publishing it for their commitment to providing a quality publication, and for helping me learn and enjoy my hobby. (Ditto that for the Keystone, but we're focused on TKM right now) 2)I would support paying for TKM and/or making it a restricted "members only" extra. TKM should be a reason to join the Society, not quit. I'll admit that I don't understand the attitudes of "I'm only interested in prototype info and will only belong to the Society if that's all that is included in the Keystone" or "I'm only interested in modeling information and will not join the Society because I can get the modeling info for free." I'm not criticizing, I just don't understand. Of course, my view is that as an American, it is my duty to vote in every election. Likewise, as a PRR fan and legacy, it is my obligation to join the PRRT&HS to support its mission. I think TKM could be used to bring new members into the Society and expose Society members who are not modelers to high quality modeling articles. Maybe that would get them started in modeling. For the record, I'm not an ex-employee, and I am under 40. Fred Ross -------------------------------1080353306 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I completely missed the renewal= when it was originally included in the Keystone.  I saw the notice pub= lished in the following issue, and followed the procedures to renew online.&= nbsp; Based on my experience, I would guess that at least a portion of=20= the nonrenewals were people who simply missed the form.  Before renewin= g online, I went back to the previous issue and looked for the form, but cou= ldn't find it.  I don't know if it was outside the magazine as a sepera= te form.  If it was, I must have chucked it by accident.  I can un= derstand how those who aren't online would have trouble renewing if they&nbs= p;missed the form. 
 
In regards to TKM: 
 
1) I love it.  Is it the r= eason I joined the Society, no, because I joined well before it was ever sta= rted.  But I would never quit the Society just because TKM is= free. As both an active modeler and someone interested in the prototyp= e history, I appreciate the outstanding articles and information provided in= TKM.  For me, it enhances my appreciation of the prototype, and provid= es specific information that cannot and probably would not be found elsewher= e.  It would be a terrible loss for it to go away.  I thank the ar= ticle contributors and those involved with publishing it for their commitmen= t to providing a quality publication, and for helping me learn and enjoy my=20= hobby.  (Ditto that for the Keystone, but we're focused on TKM right no= w)
 
2)I would support paying for TK= M and/or making it a restricted "members only" extra.  TKM should be a=20= reason to join the Society, not quit. 
 
I'll admit that I don't underst= and the attitudes of "I'm only interested in prototype info and will only be= long to the Society if that's all that is included in the Keystone" or "I'm=20= only interested in modeling information and will not join the Society becaus= e I can get the modeling info for free."  I'm not criticizing, I just d= on't understand.  Of course, my view is that as an American, it is my d= uty to vote in every election.  Likewise, as a PRR fan and legacy, it i= s my obligation to join the PRRT&HS to support its mission. =
 
I think TKM could be used to br= ing new members into the Society and expose Society members who are not= modelers to high quality modeling articles.  Maybe that would&nbs= p;get them started in modeling.  For the record, I'm not an ex-employee= , and I am under 40.
 
 
Fred Ross
-------------------------------1080353306-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron & Marilyn Mele" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:01:47 -0600 >Bob N. and others, about 2 miles up stream from Oil City at = >Rouseville the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it = >splits to each side of the creek from there to Titusville. Was >there = that much traffic 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage >or did the NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What is the = rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City ?? The line on the west bank of Oil Creek was the Oil Creek Railroad, built = in 1862. It became the Oil Creek and Allegheny River Railway in 1868. In = 1870, the OC&AR built a line on the east bank of Oil Creek and named it = the Titusville and Petroleum Center Railroad. It was renamed the = Titusville and Oil City railway in 1878 and was completed from = Titusville to Pioneer in 1880. Paul Pietrak's WNY&PA book says the line = was built on the east bank to keep the New York Central affiliated lines = at Titusville and Oil City from making a direct connection. During the = time the WNY&PA operated between Titusville and Oil City, the east bank = line was rarely used. When the PRR took over in 1900, they make use of = both lines and in 1916, the eastern line became the main line. The = western line was abandoned in 1933 and is now a hiking/biking trail in = Oil Creek State Park. The rail line you refer to on the east side of Oil = City is probably the Oil City & Ridgeway Railroad which was built in = 1876. It served a coal mine in Cranberry, located about 6 miles from Oil = City. The grade between Oil City and Cranberry was very steep and in = 1883, a coal train went out of control and derailed coming down the = hill. The accident resulted in several deaths and the line was shut down = in the aftermath.=20 Hope this helps. Ron Mele ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4137D.EEFCC840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
>Bob N. and others,  =  about 2=20 miles up stream from Oil City at >Rouseville the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it >splits to = each side of=20 the creek from there to=20 Titusville. Was >there that = much traffic=20 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage
 >or did the=20 NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What=20 is the rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City=20 ??
 
The line on the west bank of Oil Creek = was the Oil=20 Creek Railroad, built in 1862. It became the Oil Creek and Allegheny = River=20 Railway in 1868. In 1870, the OC&AR built a line on the east bank of = Oil=20 Creek and named it the Titusville and Petroleum Center Railroad. It = was=20 renamed the Titusville and Oil City railway in 1878 and was completed = from=20 Titusville to Pioneer in 1880. Paul Pietrak's WNY&PA book says the = line was=20 built on the east bank to keep the New York Central affiliated lines at=20 Titusville and Oil City from making a direct connection. During the time = the=20 WNY&PA operated between Titusville and Oil City, the east bank line = was=20 rarely used. When the PRR took over in 1900, they make use of both lines = and in=20 1916, the eastern line became the main line. The western line was = abandoned in=20 1933 and is now a hiking/biking trail in Oil Creek State Park. = The rail=20 line you refer to on the east side of Oil City is probably the Oil City = &=20 Ridgeway Railroad which was built in 1876. It served a coal mine in = Cranberry,=20 located about 6 miles from Oil City. The grade between Oil City and = Cranberry=20 was very steep and in 1883, a coal train went out of control and=20 derailed coming down the hill. The accident resulted in several = deaths and=20 the line was shut down in the aftermath.
Hope this helps.
Ron Mele
 
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4137D.EEFCC840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: RE: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:34:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.7.165.29] at Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:34:46 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It's a K2/3 shell. I was going to build on into a K3 some years ago until I saw a Westside K3 and realized that there was no way I could approach the Westside in looks. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division Circa 1946 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:] On Behalf Of Harry Fitch Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:53 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? FYI- I am not interested in this item but it may be of interest to others on the list. CAST METAL PENNSY STEAM ENGINE SHELLW/BRASS Item number: 3184438640 I asked the seller a question about length and this is the reply. The shell is 6.1" from the smoke box front to the cab sidewall. By the way the smokebox front is a brass casting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184438640 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:57:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Phil Balles writes: > List > > Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent > Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New > Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are > available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that > the Keystone was not included (this in a city where > the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a > few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing > it's exposure to the masses? > Regards, > Phil Balles Phil and all, I have ask the same in the past and have gotten no response. Strategically place this would be a great way to increase the "desire" but again it has been said albeit not to me that if one could buy The Keystone over the counter what would be the use of joining. I view this as the old "eye plugs in and blinders on" approach to marketing. People joint because of the community that is created ... not the goodies they receive. I believe that a few strategically placed "FREE" copies of The Keystone in the HIGH SCHOOL Libraries of the Pittsburgh school district, the Philadelphia School district would add a great seed pod from our tree... Just remember what my Jewish grandfather Ike Freeman reminded me... " idol hands are the Devil's workshop..." Greg RATSO Martin --part1_60.3cc53f6f.2d987a2e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Phil Balles writes:

List

Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Kle= in's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O /= New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, ye= t they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as s= trange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where
the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a= few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing=20= it's exposure to the masses?
Regards,
Phil Balles


Phil and all,

I have ask the same in the past and have gotten no response. Strategically p= lace this would be a great way to increase the "desire" but again it has bee= n said albeit not to me that if one could buy The Keystone over the counter=20= what would be the use of joining.  I view this as the old "eye plugs in= and blinders on" approach to marketing. People joint because of the communi= ty that is created ... not the goodies they receive.

I believe that a few strategically placed "FREE" copies of The Keystone in t= he HIGH SCHOOL Libraries of the Pittsburgh school district, the Philadelphia= School district would add a great seed pod from our tree...

Just remember what my Jewish grandfather Ike Freeman reminded me... " idol h= ands are the Devil's workshop..."

Greg RATSO Martin --part1_60.3cc53f6f.2d987a2e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone/PRR T&HS issues Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:48:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and gents, I thank you Bill for bringing up a continuous point with Keystone content and the work in general. Chuck can only publish what he has availible. Members of the list brought up the articles on the T1 are a currently re-occuring theme. If a person wants to see something different, write and article or do a pictorial overview. I myself haven't had the chance to contribute anything major thusfar to the Keystone. Though I do have a few things planned. Essentially the society is indebted to Chuck for his many continuos years of service acting as editor-in-chief for the Ksytone as well as other PRRT&HS publications. I;ve been to Chucks to give some tidbits for the Keystone and i've browsed some of the possible future content. Everytime I arrive at Chuck's he's at his computer doing something for the Keystone. In some aspects I can't imagine how he has time to work on his narrow gauge layout and spend time gardening. Chuck Blardone to the Keystone is what Grif Teller was to PRR calenders. I'd suggest no matter what is published, if you see him somewhere, convention, railfanning, or otherwise, let him know he's doing an outstanding job. The Keystone wouldn't be what it is without Chuck, the BoD, the staff, and its contributers. We are very lucky as a group to recieve one of the finest historical publications in the nation. Good content or bad, its our magazine and 100% PRR. -John "Bill Lane" wrote: Phil and List, I think that the job of Keystone distribution manager is available merely for the asking. It has been announced more help is needed in that area at the Phila. Chapter meets more then once. If this whole thing is a call to arms, then come out shootin! My jury is still out on the other recent issues. I tend to think that if the contributors do so for free knowing that there is no compensation, then TKM too should remain free. That COULD be the hook here. TKM remains free for you if you contribute to it twice a year. I try to give photos to both the Keystone and TKM as much as possible. Chuck Blardone has loudly stated recently that backlog of articles to be published in the Keystone is getting dangerously small. Those in the know that will prepare the number crunching spreadsheet may be able to correlate the non-renews to subscribers of TKM. I will wait until that time comes for the results. I will end this with this thought. Chuck Blardone has been doing us ALL a HUGE service for the past 20 or so years by keeping the quality and time schedule of the Keystone second to none. We all should be prepared, because whenever he decides to return to civilian life, the negative impact on the society will also be huge and unstoppable unless an equally committed, dedicated and qualified successor steps up immediately. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:09:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:58 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures =20= > from.=A0=A0 Is there anything currently available that contains such =20= > information? http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-=20 query-Show***EBF-BEB-189189189198196189-1466***-eProducts***-=20 ***SHOPPING(directory)***.ws4d?SHOPPING/results(S).html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Renewals Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:06:09 -0500 I believe Mark Twain once said "Reports of my death are highly = exagerated." Before we conclude that the society is dead (perish the = thought), let's get after the renewals (direct mailing), determine what = caused the problem so we don't let it happen again (what did we do = different this year compared with the last couple?), and start thinking = about a major marketing effort and membership drive. A lot of superb = ideas have been put forth. The BOD is exceptionally busy - we need to = help them wherever possible. Also, we need to constantly keep in mind that there are a lot of members = (any way of telling how many?) who don't have e-mail so don't get these = messages. We can solve this problem, learn from it, and move forward, but we sure = do need to get busy and act. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C415A7.BFC07780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
I believe Mark Twain once said "Reports of my = death are=20 highly exagerated."  Before we conclude that the society is dead = (perish=20 the thought), let's get after the renewals (direct mailing), determine = what=20 caused the problem so we don't let it happen again (what did we do = different=20 this year compared with the last couple?), and start thinking about a = major=20 marketing effort and membership drive.  A lot of superb ideas have = been put=20 forth.  The BOD is exceptionally busy - we need to help them = wherever=20 possible.
 
Also, we need to constantly keep in mind that = there are a=20 lot of members (any way of telling how many?) who don't have e-mail so = don't get=20 these messages.
 
We can solve this problem, learn from it, and = move=20 forward, but we sure do need to get busy and act.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C415A7.BFC07780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:02 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:22:53 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:49:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New P&LE book From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 10:36 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > The P&LERRHS will soon release "P&LE's Gondola Cars." For N scalers, Micro-Trains released two P&LE gons last month... http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_105580.htm Can't comment on the prototypical accuracy though. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:23:54 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AC freight symbols From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] AC freight symbols Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:43:26 -0500 Aaahhhhh, those mystery AC trains!! Fred and the List: "AC" trains were on the Ft. Wayne line in 1965 as well. There were 2; = AC-1 and AC-2. They appear to run almost daily. AC-1 would go past = Warsaw in the evening after 10pm. AC-2 typically arrived in Warsaw in = the mid-afternoon. It is interesting to not that both of these trains = did not appear in the ETT of 1965 while they ran almost every day. The = typical motive power on these trains were 2nd generation diesels like = GP-30's GP-35's and U-25-B's. The Pennsy had a fragmented and inconsistent system of naming freights. = This is one area where the Standard Railroad of the World, wasn't. From = what I can tell, the Pennsy had 4 basic categories where freight symbols = could fall under: The first train symbols are Commodity-based. Trains like "TT-1" (an = intermodal Truc-Train), "LCL-1" (Less than CarLoad), "FW-8" (Feed Water = livestock), "NF-6" (Non - Feed water livestock) were all named based on = the commodites that they hauled. However, one cannot tell what the = origin and destination of these trains are just by looking at the = symbols The second train symbols were Origin-Destination based. Trains like CB-1 = / CB-2 were Chicago to Boston and CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville. Note = with these train symbols, one can determine the origin and destination = but cannot determine what the train is hauling. Would "AC" trains fall = in this category? If the "C" stood for Chicago, what did the "A" stand = for? Another train that may fall in this category is CS-8. The third category are "semi-destination" train symbols. Westbound = trains like WC-5 stood for "West Coast" trains. Likewise "SWC-1" trains = on the Panhandle were heading for the "South West Coast". These trains = did not go all of the way to the coast but rather interchanged with = railroads in Chicago and St. Louis that did. Also, one cannot tell from = the symbol on the EXACT origin and destination of the train. The last category were "divisional" trains. These were typically locals = however, the names were not consistent with other divisions. The Ft. = Wayne Division locals were named FW-13, FW 24, etc. Please note that = this is in conflict with the FW-8 live stock train mentioned above. In a = neighboring division, the Logansport Division trains were named with a = "LD-" prefix; I read somewhere that LD stood for "Logansport Dispatch." And were are talking only about the mid-1960's!!! Pick up a number of = ETT's a few years apart and you will see an alphabet soup of train = symbols that come and go as quickly as the sun sets. So, what does AC mean? How about CS-8? or GRE-2? If any of you out there = have information on these trains, please reply back to Fred and me. I = am giving a presentation on Warsaw at this years convention and will be = discussing train symbols briefly. Any information will be greatly = appreciated. Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Ripley=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: [PRR] AC freight symbols Hi All, I am hoping someone can supply some information about several freight symbols. In the Western Region ETT of 10/30/66, 2 new freight schedules are = AC-2 and AC-4. Both originate in Chicago, and travel the Ft. Wayne main to the = east end of the Region (Lucas, OH). However, the Central Region ETT of the same date shows neither train! Conversely, this timetable shows a westbound on the Ft. Wayne line, = AC-1, that leaves the Central Region at Lucas, but is not listed on the = Western Region schedules. Does anyone know anything about these trains? Thanks, Fred R. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40463.505A8700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Aaahhhhh, those mystery AC trains!!
 
Fred and the List:
 
"AC" trains were on the Ft. Wayne line in 1965 as well. There were = 2; AC-1=20 and AC-2. They appear to run almost daily. AC-1 would go past Warsaw in = the=20 evening after 10pm. AC-2 typically arrived in Warsaw in the = mid-afternoon. It is=20 interesting to not that both of these trains did not appear in the ETT = of 1965=20 while they ran almost every day. The typical motive power on these = trains were=20 2nd generation diesels like GP-30's GP-35's and U-25-B's.
 
The Pennsy had a fragmented and inconsistent system of naming = freights.=20 This is one area where the Standard Railroad of the World, wasn't. From = what I=20 can tell, the Pennsy had 4 basic categories where freight symbols could = fall=20 under:
 
The first train symbols are Commodity-based. Trains like "TT-1" (an = intermodal Truc-Train), "LCL-1" (Less than CarLoad), "FW-8" (Feed Water=20 livestock), "NF-6" (Non - Feed water livestock) were all named based on = the=20 commodites that they hauled. However, one cannot tell what the origin = and=20 destination of these trains are just by looking at the symbols
 
The second train symbols were Origin-Destination based. Trains like = CB-1 /=20 CB-2 were Chicago to Boston and CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville. Note = with these=20 train symbols, one can determine the origin and destination but cannot = determine=20 what the train is hauling. Would "AC" trains fall in this category? If = the "C"=20 stood for Chicago, what did the "A" stand for? Another train that may = fall in=20 this category is CS-8.
 
The third category are "semi-destination" train symbols. Westbound = trains=20 like WC-5 stood for "West Coast" trains. Likewise "SWC-1" = trains on=20 the Panhandle were heading for the "South West Coast". These trains = did not=20 go all of the way to the coast but rather interchanged with railroads=20 in Chicago and St. Louis that did. Also, one cannot tell from = the=20 symbol on the EXACT origin and destination of the train.
 
The last category were "divisional" trains. These were = typically=20 locals however, the names were not consistent with other=20 divisions. The Ft. Wayne Division locals were named = FW-13, FW 24,=20 etc. Please note that this is in conflict with the FW-8 live stock = train=20 mentioned above. In a neighboring division, the Logansport Division = trains were=20 named with a "LD-" prefix; I read somewhere that LD stood for=20 "Logansport Dispatch."
 
And were are talking only about the mid-1960's!!! Pick up a number = of=20 ETT's a few years apart and you will see an alphabet soup of train = symbols=20 that come and go as quickly as the sun sets.
 
So, what does AC mean? How about CS-8? or GRE-2? If = any of=20 you out there have information on these trains, please reply = back to=20 Fred and me.  I am giving a presentation on Warsaw at=20 this years convention and will be discussing train = symbols=20 briefly. Any information will be greatly appreciated.
 
 
Ted Andrews
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Ripley
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 = 11:23=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] AC freight = symbols

Hi All,

I am hoping someone can supply some = information=20 about several freight
symbols.

In the Western Region ETT of=20 10/30/66, 2 new freight schedules are AC-2 and
AC-4.  Both = originate=20 in Chicago, and travel the Ft. Wayne main to the east
end of the = Region=20 (Lucas, OH).

However, the Central Region ETT of the same date = shows=20 neither train!
Conversely, this timetable shows a westbound on the = Ft.=20 Wayne line, AC-1,
that leaves the Central Region at Lucas, but is = not=20 listed on the Western
Region schedules.

Does anyone know = anything=20 about these trains?

Thanks, Fred=20 = R.



-------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40463.505A8700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:36:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] AC freight symbols X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another train symbol which did appear in the ETT is train PY which originally ran from Pitcairn to Youngstown but really ran to Niles, OH. Later it ran from Conway to Niles. The Niles PY crews were regularly on overtime and often "outlawing" on the 16 hour day. The Ashtabula crews which only had seasonal ore and coal work,were hungry for year round work and convinced the Supt. that they could get the train over the road on schedule - which they did. The train then ran from Conway to Ashtabula and was still called PY - It was crewed from the "pool" crew list Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] AC freight symbols Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:40:11 -0500 Ted, et al., GRE-2 = Chicago (55th St.) - Enola. Daily, the"Midwest Merchant," from 1954 Brief book It's quite possible that the "GR" originally stood for Gary (Indiana), and the service was later moved west to 55th St. On the E&P in the early days Sharon was an origin and destination point, and the letter "S" was used to designate it in some symbol freights. When Wheatland yard was built most of the trains originated and terminated there yet many still carried the "S" symbol rather than "W", which was used also. I did see a local symbol freight in one of my several brief books that used "GR" to mean Gary. But this is just speculation on my part. CS-8 = Chicago (55th St) - Enola. Daily, from 1936, 1954 Brief books. In PC daze it had been extended to Greenville, NJ AC-1 = Akron-Columbus in 1972 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw. AC-2 = Columbus-Akron in 1972 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw either. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40473.9FE56E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Ted, et=20 al.,
 
GRE-2 =3D Chicago = (55th St.) -=20 Enola.  Daily, the"Midwest Merchant," from 1954 Brief book  = It's quite=20 possible that the "GR" originally stood for Gary (Indiana), and the = service was=20 later moved west to 55th St. On the E&P in the early days Sharon was = an=20 origin and destination point, and the letter "S" was used to designate = it in=20 some symbol freights. When Wheatland yard was built most of the trains=20 originated and terminated there yet many still carried the "S" symbol = rather=20 than "W", which was used also. I did see a local symbol freight = in one of=20 my several brief books that used "GR" to mean Gary. But this is just = speculation=20 on my part.
 
CS-8 =3D Chicago = (55th St) -=20 Enola.  Daily, from 1936, 1954 Brief books. In PC daze it had been = extended=20 to Greenville, NJ
 
AC-1 =3D = Akron-Columbus in 1972=20 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by=20 Warsaw.
 
AC-2 =3D = Columbus-Akron in 1972=20 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw=20 either.
 
Al
 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40473.9FE56E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 17:56:31 -0600 From: Randy Subject: RE: [PRR] AC freight symbols From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:05:53 -0500 After a brief hiatus, I will resume giving you tidbits of actual train = operations at KS tower, on the Fort Wayne Line in Warsaw, Indiana. A Mystery Engine....... ......On May 22 1965, TT-2 went through Warsaw at 3:08 am headed by = engine number 3668. Average speed between Plymouth and Warsaw was just = over 53 miles per hour. What was 3668? No other reporting marks were = given. Still, it was on one of the Pennsy's top trains. That is it for now. Stay tuned for more rail drama from Warsaw on this = list! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C404A1.2C7C35C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
After a brief hiatus, I will resume giving you tidbits of actual = train=20 operations at KS tower, on the Fort Wayne Line in Warsaw, Indiana.
 
A Mystery Engine.......
 
.......On May 22 1965, TT-2 went through=20 Warsaw at 3:08 am headed by engine number 3668. Average = speed between=20 Plymouth and=20 Warsaw was just over 53 = miles per=20 hour. What was 3668? No other reporting marks were given. Still, it was = on one=20 of the Pennsy's top trains.
 
 
That is it for now. Stay tuned for more rail drama = from Warsaw=20 on this list!
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C404A1.2C7C35C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:55:14 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AC and other Ft. Wayne schedules From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:28:01 +0000 >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:23:28 -0800 >From: Ted Andrews [mailto:Ted_Andrews@msn.com] >Subject: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 10:24:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:39:14 -0500 Subject: Reminder Re: [PRR] Harrisburg, Pa., Train Show on March 13th From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reminder for this Saturday -- and here's a MapQuest link: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/ map.adp?country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&address=200+Gibson+Street &city=Steelton&state=PA&zipcode=&submit=Get+Map On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 02:16 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'd like to invite anyone who is in the area to visit the 18th Annual > Harrisburg Railroad Show and Collector's Market, to be held at the I. > W. Abel Union Hall (Steelworkers Union), 200 Gibson St., Steelton, PA > 17113 on Saturday, March 13th. Doors open 9 a.m. - 3 p.m. Sponsored by > the Harrisburg Chapter of the National Railroad Historical Society. > > This show is not large, by any means. I think there are usually about > 80 tables or so. I'll be there (Merchandise Service) with several BLI > locomotives hooked up to a DCC system for your listening pleasure! > > The NRHS Harrisburg Chapter will be running their HO modular layout > and I know my personal friend Bill Lewis will have a decent sized N > scale layout running. > > So if you know not what to do on this day, and you are within a > reasonable driving distance, please stop by! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:14:01 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:00:56 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:33:00 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:42:20 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:46:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] MP-54 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <19A81EBF-714A-11D8-A183-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK2 0.31-18 ip=216.93.194.144 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > This has probably been asked but I don't remember it within the last > two years. Since the MP-54 coach and motors had no diaphragms, could a > passenger travel between cars? If so, wasn't it really loud, hot, cold, > wet, annoying? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:05:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: LIRR MP54's, the answer was yes. THey had chains between cars, rather than diaphragms. Is the PRR MP%$ at RRMPa gonna be repaired or replaced? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but there are many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Phila chapter High Line mag... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:10:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi all, Does anyone have a list of the issues of the High Line that were published? I was trying to figure out which issues I'm missing but since it wasn't published very regularly I can't really tell... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:33:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, UP and CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East Conway from time to time from the mid 1960s to the merger. A very good friend of mine was an engineer on the FT. Wayne and also operated trains over to Altoona and told me that many times he would wait for eastbound TT2 at East Conway with one PRR locomotive because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At that time, the Ft. Wayne didn't have cab signals. I think there are some published photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains on the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units leading PRR trains on the Ft. Wayne. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:38:31 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Aha! The 1949 chart clearly shows the "lap" configuration. And now that I look more closely at my Interlocking diagram, they do indeed match. I missed the fact that the main ran through the crossover. Alas, I will not have room to model the entire "West" siding -- it will be a dummy track ending behind my backdrop. The "East" siding will be fully operational, however. Thanks, Dennis and Derrick! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "Dennis Rockwell" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > On 8 Mar, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > > > > > Interesting! A December 1965 track chart I downloaded from > > > > Derrick Brashear [ ... ] > > > > > > isn't there a 1940s chart covering that territory on my site now? or do i > > > misremember what day grimes' chart covered? > > > > Umm, not that I can find, but I can't find *any* charts on > > your site. The chart I have doesn't have any name on it > > that I can see. > > http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html > > scroll down. > > > If you have an earlier chart online, I'm *very* interested! > > Eastern Region Wilkes-Barre Division 1949. > > I see South Danville on page 4 of the PDF. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:08:11 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:44:38 -0600 From: Randy Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:35:59 -0500 Randy: Thanks for the info. I had a sneaking suspicion that CB&Q power in the = mid-60's was 3-digit numbered. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randy=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; Ted Andrews=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... You can rule out CB&Q power. According to their diesel roster from = 1968, they have no locomotive with a 4 digit number. Randy For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40566.1C574160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Randy:
 
Thanks for the info. I had a sneaking suspicion that CB&Q power = in the=20 mid-60's was 3-digit numbered.
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; Ted Andrews
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 10:44=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery = engine at=20 Warsaw Tower.......

You can rule out CB&Q power.  According to = their=20 diesel roster from 1968, they have no locomotive with a 4 digit=20 number.

Randy

For = assistance with=20 this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40566.1C574160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Lines West Tower Standards Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design for a brick interlocking tower? TAOT Best Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:45:20 -0500 Dave: Thanks for the info. and sources. VERY interesting. In fact, one source = is Pennsy Power II where Al Stauffer rides from Crestline to Conway with = one PRR GP-30 leading 3 CB&Q and 1 UP GP-30's. Really neat!!=20 It sounds like foreign power was able to lead PRR trains west of = Pittsburgh. Engine No. 3668 could then be something from another = railroad......but which one?? At any rate, I will need to get a few P2K CB&Q, UP and CRI&P engines for = my layout now. I wonder if I can sneak a C&NW, Milw, or Santa Fe unit in = as well...... Thanks again! Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: Ted Andrews=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Ted, UP and CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East = Conway from time to time from the mid 1960s to the merger.=20 A very good friend of mine was an engineer on the FT. Wayne = and also operated trains over to Altoona and told me that many times he would wait for eastbound TT2 at East Conway with one PRR locomotive because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At that time, the Ft. Wayne didn't have cab signals.=20 I think there are some published photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains = on the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units = leading PRR trains on the Ft. Wayne.=20 Hope this helps. Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C40567.6AFDBA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave:
 
Thanks for the info. and sources. VERY interesting. In fact, one = source is=20 Pennsy Power II where Al Stauffer rides from Crestline to Conway with = one PRR=20 GP-30 leading 3 CB&Q and 1 UP GP-30's. Really neat!!
 
It sounds like foreign power was able to lead PRR trains west of=20 Pittsburgh. Engine No. 3668 could then be something from another=20 railroad......but which one??
 
At any rate, I will need to get a few P2K CB&Q, UP=20 and CRI&P engines for my layout now. I wonder if I can = sneak a=20 C&NW, Milw, or Santa Fe unit in as well......
 
Thanks again!
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net
To: Ted Andrews
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 7:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery = engine at=20 Warsaw Tower.......

Ted,

       UP and = CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East Conway
from = time to=20 time from the mid 1960s to the merger.=20
        A very good friend of = mine was=20 an engineer on the FT. Wayne and
also operated trains over to = Altoona and=20 told me that many times he
would wait for eastbound TT2 at East = Conway with=20 one PRR locomotive
because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At = that time,=20 the Ft. Wayne
didn't have cab signals.=20
       I think there are some = published=20 photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains on
the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a = tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units leading
PRR trains on the Ft. = Wayne.=20
Hope this helps.

 Dave=20 = Hopson
 


---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C40567.6AFDBA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Decal HELP!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Decal HELP!! Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Decal HELP!! Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:52:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:52:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:54:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:47:27 +0000 From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:20:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ndbprr@att.net asked: Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture a guess as to why? The short answer is that from a car maintenance and utilization standpoint, it was much easier for railroads to band together and form consortiums to manage refrigerator car fleets [Ex: Pacific Fruit Express (UP/SP)]. The Pennsy was a major player in Fruit Growers Express; there were reefers with PRR reporting marks early in the 20th Century, but almost all cars were transferred to FGEX upon its start-up in 1922. A few Class RF reefers in express service stayed in PRR reporting marks until 1928. A few railroad did manage their own fleets of freight reefers (ATSF [SFRD], CN, and CP are the most prominent examples), but the majority of roads followed this business model. For a quick overview, check out this page at Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:25:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars I'm not an expert, but Westerfield lists models for PRR class RF reefers, circa 1900. I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. In later years, Penn was a member of Fruit Growers Express. Most railroads did not own reefers as they were expensive, limited use cars. Railroads have always tried to limit their car fleets to boxcars, flats, gons and hoppers, and let the private owners supply the more expensive cars. Bill --part1_1c9.16412ab3.2d7fac82_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm not an expert, but Westerfield=20= lists models for PRR class RF reefers, circa 1900.  I believe the Penn=20= also used an outside-braced design.  In later years, Penn was a member=20= of Fruit Growers Express.  Most railroads did not own reefers as they w= ere expensive, limited use cars.  Railroads have always tried to limit=20= their car fleets to boxcars, flats, gons and hoppers, and let the private ow= ners supply the more expensive cars.  Bill --part1_1c9.16412ab3.2d7fac82_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <030920042247.14758.52f4@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:05:55 -0600 Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote: I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 boxcar = with ice bunkers and reefer doors: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_3= 4view.jpg&fr=3DclR7 All cars went to FGEX. Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors and ran = into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX). BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which = simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an = "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually = serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The = proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that = the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and = the car lining. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_016C_01C40611.EE556100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote:
I believe the = Penn also used an=20 outside-braced design.
 
That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 = boxcar with=20 ice bunkers and reefer doors:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightph= otos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_34view.jpg&fr=3DclR7
 
All cars went to FGEX.  Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors = and ran=20 into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX).
 
BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms=20 which simply wasn't used in industry publications.  = The "bracing"=20 of an "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides.  = They=20 actually serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its=20 load.  The proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers = to the=20 fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior = sheathing and=20 the car lining.
 
 
Ben Hom  
------=_NextPart_000_016C_01C40611.EE556100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:23:36 -0500 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In today's Inquirer's Local News (Philadelphia & its Suburbs) section on page 12, there's an article concerning the research being done by William Watson and John Ahtes, professors at Immaculata College, about the mass grave of 57 P&C workers at Duffy's Cut in Malvern, PA. The remains were placed in Malvern after the workers fatally contracted black diphtheria and is marked by a stone memorial. The professors are investigating if the location of the gravesite is correct based on papers inherited by Watson and his twin brother Frank. Their grandfather, Joseph Tripician, was the personal secretary to Martin Clement, President of the PRR. Mr. Tripician removed the papers from Penn Central's vault in 1970. Sounds like a good idea for an "Observation Car" tour. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:28:39 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dennis, Derrick, and list, I took a few minutes to post the Kips Interlocking diagram from my 1965 book: http://home.mchsi.com/~amato/graphics/1965-susq-dist-kips.gif Note that your browser may shrink it to fit on your screen. If you open it with a graphics program, you should be able to see all the detail. BTW, what are the "identifiers" (for lack of better term) along each track. For example "F2", "E2", and "DD2"? Are these block numbers? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Rockwell" To: "Derrick J Brashear" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 > On 8 Mar, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html > > > > Eastern Region Wilkes-Barre Division 1949. > > > > I see South Danville on page 4 of the PDF. > > Yep! Excellent! > > Frank, this shows (I think) that we're both right. It's > shown here as a long (2.5mi) siding with a crossover in the > middle. However, the main line (the darker line) takes the > crossover, which would imply to me that it is in fact > arranged as a lap siding, since I wouldn't expect the > mainline to take a crossover. > > Whether those turnouts are a pair of lefts or rights > wouldn't change how the signalling was designed, would it? > > There is another lap siding at Mifflin/Creasy which the > chart shows as I could expect to lay it out, and a > three-track water stop between Nescopeck and Wapwallopen > which explains the oddball divergence in later charts. > > Very very good info here. Thanks, Derrick! > > Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:34:03 -0500 Ben, In the case of a refrigerator car, the sheathing could not be both = exterior surface and interior lining, as there was some insulation = involved between the sheathing and the lining. So the R7 could not = really be considered "single sheathed". The X23, yes, the R7, no. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Benjamin Frank Hom=20 To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote: I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 boxcar = with ice bunkers and reefer doors: = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_3= 4view.jpg&fr=3DclR7 All cars went to FGEX. Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors and ran = into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX). BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which = simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an = "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually = serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The = proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that = the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and = the car lining. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01C4061E.3E64DE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ben,
 
In the case of a refrigerator car, the sheathing = could not be=20 both exterior surface and interior lining, as there was some insulation = involved=20 between the sheathing and the lining. So the R7 could not really be = considered=20 "single sheathed". The X23, yes, the R7, no.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Benjamin=20 Frank Hom
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 = 9:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator = cars

Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) = wrote:
I believe the = Penn also used=20 an outside-braced design.
 
That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 = boxcar=20 with ice bunkers and reefer doors:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightph= otos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_34view.jpg&fr=3DclR7
 
All cars went to FGEX.  Some cars were rebuilt with plug = doors and=20 ran into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of = FGEX).
 
BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms=20 which simply wasn't used in industry publications. =20 The "bracing" of an "outside braced" car do not structurally = brace the=20 sides.  They actually serve as a truss which carries the weight = of the=20 car and its load.  The proper industry term is "single sheathed," = which=20 refers to the fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both = exterior sheathing and the car lining.
 
 
Ben Hom  
------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01C4061E.3E64DE80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Request for Comments: S Scale PRR Covered Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:43:49 -0600 Paul S. asked: Attached is a link to an American Models S scale PRR covered hopper=20 (http://www.americanmodels.com/_photos/3308.jpg).=20 Would be interested in the group's thoughts as to how prototypical it=20 is. First, it's off-topic for this list as it's a post-1960 car. PRR did buy 185 Class H46 PS-2 CD covered hoppers from Pullman-Standard = in 1965; however, the paint and lettering on this model is executed = poorly. The car number is bogus (PRR 260084 is a Class H42 cylindrical = covered hopper), and the paint and lettering are a crappy rendition of a = PRR covered hopper paint scheme. The car should be in the final Plain = Keystone scheme with large gothic reporting marks and numerals. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4061F.9BAD5F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Paul S. asked:
Attached is a link to an American Models S scale PRR covered = hopper=20
(http://www.amer= icanmodels.com/_photos/3308.jpg).=20
Would be interested in the group's thoughts as to how prototypical = it=20
is.
First, it's off-topic for this list as it's a post-1960 = car.
 
PRR did buy 185 Class H46 PS-2 CD covered hoppers = from=20 Pullman-Standard in 1965; however, the paint and lettering on this model = is=20 executed poorly.  The car number is bogus (PRR 260084 is a Class = H42=20 cylindrical covered hopper), and the paint and lettering = are a crappy=20 rendition of a PRR covered hopper paint scheme.  The car = should be in=20 the final Plain Keystone scheme with large gothic reporting marks and=20 numerals.
 
 
Ben = Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4061F.9BAD5F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:46:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of > cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture > a guess as to why? In addition to the responses already given, I will note that the PRR did maintain a fleet of express refrigerators in the form of the R50B and much more rare R60. These were technically considered as part of the passenger car fleet, but at many times the R50Bs operated as freight equipment. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:25:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Revisited: Federal Glass Company in Columbus, OH on T&OC In a message dated 3/8/04 11:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes: > Gents: > > Actually Mark, after sending the "send me her adress e-mail" I am surprised > you are asking this..... > > The N&W (heading N-S)was a few blocks east, not near the plant. The T&OC > came into > Cow-lumbus along Marion Road (E-W), turned north and served a few > industries. > Then the whole line swings north, heading along the river. There are a > ton of industries along this road...or there were 10 years ago. > Garrett Rea > Nashville, TN > Garrett and Mark, Looking at my trusty SPV map of Columbus, I assume the locale is not only on the T&OC Western Branch west of Truro, but a bit west of Bannon where the N&W crossing/interchange is. I don't remember them, but the map shows three lengthy spurs off the north side of the T&OC (the middle one is the longest and is shown as going to Techneglas). Now further questions: along the Scioto the T&OC and C&O are shown swapping sides as they head north to their crossing of the Little Miami at Scioto Tower (required PRR content): 1. where did they cross, South Columbus or Frankfort St.? 2. didn't the T&OC have a yard called Frankfort Street? I assume it lay on the river side of the main. What facilities were there and when did it disappear? (It was still there quite while after Buckeye opened, and visible as you entered Columbus on I-71 from the south). 3. the T&OC had their own station just south of Scioto Tower (and between two crossings of the Scioto River). Was it always called Columbus, or previously West Columbus or Franklintown? 4. even back in Hocking Valley days (pre-C&O), did the passenger trains from the coal fields back up a Pennsy line to reach Columbus Union Depot? BTW, Mike Walker's SPV atlases are usually very good at showing yards and former yards, but the Great Lakes East volume falls apart on the Columbus area map, showing no: T&OC Frankfort St. PRR (Little Miami) Water Street PRR Yard A PRR Yard B PRR Grogan Yard PRR Pennor Yard PRR Spruce St (coachyards west of CUDepot) PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops CCC&StL yard east of Miami Crossing (I don't even remember the name -- this was the first thing to be wiped out by freeway construction I imagine). All these yards are now abandoned, and most sites long since cleared for other purposes. Of course, if all the above were to be shown, it might require a "downtown Columbus" inset map to handle the detail usefully. "America has rolled by like an army of steam rollers. It's been built, destroyed, and then built again" -- James Earl Jones monolog in Field of Dreams Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_24.50d4b154.2d7fe49e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/8/04 11:48:22=20= PM Eastern Standard Time, Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes:

Gents:

Actually Mark, after sending the "send me her adress e-mail"  I am surp= rised
you are asking this.....

The N&W (heading N-S)was a few blocks east, not near the plant.  Th= e T&OC came into
Cow-lumbus along Marion Road (E-W), turned north and served a few industries= .
Then the whole line swings north, heading along the river.   = There are a
ton of industries along this road...or there were 10 years ago.
=


<snip>

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN


Garrett and Mark,

Looking at my trusty SPV map of Columbus, I assume the locale is not only on= the T&OC Western Branch west of Truro, but a bit west of Bannon where t= he N&W crossing/interchange is.  I don't remember them, but the map= shows three lengthy spurs off the north side of the T&OC (the middle on= e is the longest and is shown as going to Techneglas).

Now further questions: along the Scioto the T&OC and C&O are shown s= wapping sides as they head north to their crossing of the Little Miami at Sc= ioto Tower (required PRR content):
1. where did they cross, South Columbus or Frankfort St.?
2. didn't the T&OC have a yard called Frankfort Street?  I assume i= t lay on the river side of the main.  What facilities were there and wh= en did it disappear?  (It was still there quite while after Buckeye ope= ned, and visible as you entered Columbus on I-71 from the south).
3. the T&OC had their own station just south of Scioto Tower (and betwee= n two crossings of the Scioto River).  Was it always called Columbus, o= r previously West Columbus or Franklintown?
4. even back in Hocking Valley days (pre-C&O), did the passenger trains=20= from the coal fields back up a Pennsy line to reach Columbus Union Depot?
BTW, Mike Walker's SPV atlases are usually very good at showing yards and fo= rmer yards, but the Great Lakes East volume falls apart on the Columbus area= map, showing no:
T&OC Frankfort St.
PRR (Little Miami) Water Street
PRR Yard A
PRR Yard B
PRR Grogan Yard
PRR Pennor Yard
PRR Spruce St (coachyards west of CUDepot)
PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops
CCC&StL yard east of Miami Crossing (I don't even remember the name -- t= his was the first thing to be wiped out by freeway construction I imagine).<= BR>
All these yards are now abandoned, and most sites long since cleared for oth= er purposes.  Of course, if all the above were to be shown, it might re= quire a "downtown Columbus" inset map to handle the detail usefully.

"America has rolled by like an army of steam rollers. It's been built, destr= oyed, and then built again" -- James Earl Jones monolog in Field of Dream= s

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_24.50d4b154.2d7fe49e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:25:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West towers In a message dated 3/9/04 1:14:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Lines West Tower Standards > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500 > > Gents, > > I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that > model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design > for a brick interlocking tower? > > TAOT > > Best Regards, > John The 1898 Lines West signaling standards shows only a frame tower design which steps up for larger and larger interlocking machines. This frame tower is NOT similar to Lines East designs of the period; instead, it is more like generic interlockings all over Chicago. I'd like correlate this wood-sheathed design to actual LW locations. I suspect, for example, that Mansfield (OH) was one of them before it acquired red insulbrick siding. But this design may also cover Scioto, Custer, Hanna, South Charleston, Greene (Xenia) and a number of others. This of course does nothing to document the 70 years of brick towers on Lines West. The one recognizable grouping, relatively late, was the "brick castle" group with flat roofs, including Alum Creek (Columbus), Piqua, RACE (Logansport), and Smithboro? IL. An earlier brick design (with 4-slope roof) is represented by CLARE in Cincinnati; according to resources uncovered while researching The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, CLARE replaced a wood tower wiped out in a 1921 derailment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_154.2faa642d.2d7fe493_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/9/04 1:14:43 A= M Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Lines West Tower Stand= ards
From: "John Frantz" <johnf2384@suscom.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500

Gents,

I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that
model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design
for a brick interlocking tower?

TAOT

Best Regards,
John


The 1898 Lines West signaling standards shows only a frame tower design whic= h steps up for larger and larger interlocking machines.  This frame tow= er is NOT similar to Lines East designs of the period; instead, it is more l= ike generic interlockings all over Chicago.

I'd like correlate this wood-sheathed design to actual LW locations.  I= suspect, for example, that Mansfield (OH) was one of them before it acquire= d red insulbrick siding.  But this design may also cover Scioto, Custer= , Hanna, South Charleston, Greene (Xenia) and a number of others.

This of course does nothing to document the 70 years of brick towers on Line= s West.  The one recognizable grouping, relatively late, was the "brick= castle" group with flat roofs, including Alum Creek (Columbus), Piqua, RACE= (Logansport), and Smithboro? IL.  An earlier brick design (with 4-slop= e roof) is represented by CLARE in Cincinnati; according to resources uncove= red while researching The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, CLARE=20= replaced a wood tower wiped out in a 1921 derailment.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_154.2faa642d.2d7fe493_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:43:39 -0500 Does anyone know of an accurate/up to date mailing address for Funero & = Camerlengo? I sent them a letter at their Honesdale, Pa address and the = letter was returned as no one resided at that address. =20 I looked at several web sites but all listed the address that I used = that resulted in the returned letter. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know of an accurate/up to = date mailing=20 address for Funero & Camerlengo?  I sent them a letter at their = Honesdale, Pa address and the letter was returned as no one resided at = that=20 address. 
 
I looked at several web sites but all = listed the=20 address that I used that resulted in the = returned letter.
 
Any help would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:43:39 -0500 Does anyone know of an accurate/up to date mailing address for Funero & = Camerlengo? I sent them a letter at their Honesdale, Pa address and the = letter was returned as no one resided at that address. =20 I looked at several web sites but all listed the address that I used = that resulted in the returned letter. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know of an accurate/up to = date mailing=20 address for Funero & Camerlengo?  I sent them a letter at their = Honesdale, Pa address and the letter was returned as no one resided at = that=20 address. 
 
I looked at several web sites but all = listed the=20 address that I used that resulted in the = returned letter.
 
Any help would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:31:13 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Or are RBL's boxcars? In a message dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 > > Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? > > The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later > years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR > Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars > that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 > PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as > Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were > in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. > > Al > Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and seemingly most other FGE owners). There were both 40 and 50 foot insulated boxcars of FGE design. The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and similar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled. If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A. Of course, all of these are built circa 1960 or later. Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these cars are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built date. They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repainted in SK2b or PK. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:31:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Or are RBL's boxcars? In a message dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 > > Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? > > The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later > years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR > Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars > that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 > PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as > Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were > in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. > > Al > Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and seemingly most other FGE owners). There were both 40 and 50 foot insulated boxcars of FGE design. The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and similar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled. If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A. Of course, all of these are built circa 1960 or later. Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these cars are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built date. They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repainted in SK2b or PK. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_da.551cf7e.2d806491_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator= cars
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500

Re: Did any ever have PRR markings?

The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later
years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR
Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars
that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95
PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as
Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were
in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880.

Al


Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and= seemingly most other FGE owners).  There were both 40 and 50 foot insu= lated boxcars of FGE design.

The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and simi= lar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled= .  If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR=20= classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A.  Of course, all of these are built ci= rca 1960 or later.  Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these car= s are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built da= te.  They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repa= inted in SK2b or PK.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_da.551cf7e.2d806491_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:59:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <012001c40635$79bd50e0$06f70041@dial.home.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I had always heard that one of the main reasons RRs preferred to operate their reefers through private owner subsidiaries had to do with the interchange rules. There were ICC or AAR regulations mandating the = return of empties. These rules did not work well for expensive equipment for narrowly defined cargo, such as reefers. If the cars were private = owner, then the interchange rules were different (or nonexistent. The same = theory hold for tank cars. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:20 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars ndbprr@att.net asked: Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of = cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture a = guess as to why? The short answer is that from a car maintenance and utilization = standpoint, it was much easier for railroads to band together and form consortiums = to manage refrigerator car fleets [Ex: Pacific Fruit Express (UP/SP)]. The Pennsy was a major player in Fruit Growers Express; there were reefers = with PRR reporting marks early in the 20th Century, but almost all cars were transferred to FGEX upon its start-up in 1922. A few Class RF reefers = in express service stayed in PRR reporting marks until 1928. A few railroad did manage their own fleets of freight reefers (ATSF = [SFRD], CN, and CP are the most prominent examples), but the majority of roads followed this business model. For a quick overview, check out this page = at Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:31:14 -0500 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ah Ha! Yes! This is the reason stated by RR employees when I asked this question early in my RR career - 35 years. RR owned equipment could be placed for loading by another RR for any destination, with almost any product for that cartype. Private owner equipment could only be placed for loading on instructions of the owner. This insured that a load of hides was not loaded in a reefer, etc. rendering the car not usable for meat. Also, with RR owned cars the daily car rental (per diem) was a fixed price, until the middle 1960s when a car value rate structure was introduced. Private car ownership allowed the car owner to charge additional car rental (not part of the per diem rates) for their equipment. Garry Spear Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I had always heard that one of the main reasons RRs preferred to operate > their reefers through private owner subsidiaries had to do with the > interchange rules. There were ICC or AAR regulations mandating the return > of empties. These rules did not work well for expensive equipment for > narrowly defined cargo, such as reefers. If the cars were private owner, > then the interchange rules were different (or nonexistent. The same theory > hold for tank cars. > > regards, > Andy Miller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:32 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <511531F7-72AD-11D8-90C3-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning Y'all, I introduced the 14 yr old son of a friend to operations on Saturday at a friends layout (B&M, MEC, circa 1960, http://batherson.com/seamrrc/brwm.htm) and I noted how the industrial district in one corner could be a layout by itself. That led me to start pondering a prototype switching layout based on the PRR. Then I thought - Wait a minute - there's one in my current (grandiose) layout plan (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ Homerr.html)...Oxford PA on the Octoraro Branch! If I did it right, it might even be able to fit into the ultimate layout some day, and if not, the structures would be recycled...and yes, the whole thing would be quite mobile (although no immediate plans to move are in the works). Oh yeah, I plan to write up the planning process for TKM . In the mean time, I could actually have a LAYOUT! Oxford is very, very interesting, in that most trains on the branch did not go through Oxford, but turned and returned to their point of origin at Oxford. Passenger trains consisted of Doodlebugs and the "mushroom train" (which was through), usually with a G5 and 2 PB70s, alternating with a B60b and a PBM70A. Freights were almost exclusively pulled by H class steamers, with an ND cabin until after WWII. A variety of military (troop trains) and other traffic was also seen. My PRRPro R50Bs were almost all destined for this branch anyway. Industries on the 1947 track chart include: at least 3 public delivery tracks Mackey Lumber Co. Oxford Cabinet Co. Sinclair Ref Co. Spencer Oil Abbotts Dairies Oxford Hay and Grain (2 tracks?) Passmore Supply Co. Shocks Oil Packing House In addition there was a water tank and turntable, since most trains turned at Oxford.... So a switching "layout" would consist of "staging" at both ends (possibly a small yard, perhaps a sector plate, or even a single track "cassette") with Oxford in the middle. At least 2 operators could be kept busy, as the "north" and "south" engineers, bringing trains out of staging, into Oxford, performing the work, turning the power, and heading back into staging. Now, I need to do some design work and get more information. I have the High Line on the "Mushroom Train". This has a track schematic and a few photos but what I need are photographs of the buildings along the tracks, and the geographic arrangements of those tracks. I found two more photos of motive power (one on Gary Mittner's site) I think that the Keystone, vol 16, no 2, 1983 "A Half-Century of Train Watching at Oxford, PA" by John F. Harris Sr. has a fair number of photos that might help, but I don't have that issue yet. If anyone has photographs of any of the businesses listed above, or any other information regarding Oxford I would be very interested in seeing them!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:32 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <511531F7-72AD-11D8-90C3-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning Y'all, I introduced the 14 yr old son of a friend to operations on Saturday at a friends layout (B&M, MEC, circa 1960, http://batherson.com/seamrrc/brwm.htm) and I noted how the industrial district in one corner could be a layout by itself. That led me to start pondering a prototype switching layout based on the PRR. Then I thought - Wait a minute - there's one in my current (grandiose) layout plan (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ Homerr.html)...Oxford PA on the Octoraro Branch! If I did it right, it might even be able to fit into the ultimate layout some day, and if not, the structures would be recycled...and yes, the whole thing would be quite mobile (although no immediate plans to move are in the works). Oh yeah, I plan to write up the planning process for TKM . In the mean time, I could actually have a LAYOUT! Oxford is very, very interesting, in that most trains on the branch did not go through Oxford, but turned and returned to their point of origin at Oxford. Passenger trains consisted of Doodlebugs and the "mushroom train" (which was through), usually with a G5 and 2 PB70s, alternating with a B60b and a PBM70A. Freights were almost exclusively pulled by H class steamers, with an ND cabin until after WWII. A variety of military (troop trains) and other traffic was also seen. My PRRPro R50Bs were almost all destined for this branch anyway. Industries on the 1947 track chart include: at least 3 public delivery tracks Mackey Lumber Co. Oxford Cabinet Co. Sinclair Ref Co. Spencer Oil Abbotts Dairies Oxford Hay and Grain (2 tracks?) Passmore Supply Co. Shocks Oil Packing House In addition there was a water tank and turntable, since most trains turned at Oxford.... So a switching "layout" would consist of "staging" at both ends (possibly a small yard, perhaps a sector plate, or even a single track "cassette") with Oxford in the middle. At least 2 operators could be kept busy, as the "north" and "south" engineers, bringing trains out of staging, into Oxford, performing the work, turning the power, and heading back into staging. Now, I need to do some design work and get more information. I have the High Line on the "Mushroom Train". This has a track schematic and a few photos but what I need are photographs of the buildings along the tracks, and the geographic arrangements of those tracks. I found two more photos of motive power (one on Gary Mittner's site) I think that the Keystone, vol 16, no 2, 1983 "A Half-Century of Train Watching at Oxford, PA" by John F. Harris Sr. has a fair number of photos that might help, but I don't have that issue yet. If anyone has photographs of any of the businesses listed above, or any other information regarding Oxford I would be very interested in seeing them!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for > use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing > this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, so I will now cross post. According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for the plain M1's. Anyone? Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for > use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing > this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, so I will now cross post. According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for the plain M1's. Anyone? Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:39:26 -0500 From: sjlash [mailto:sjlash@tcis.net] Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's From: Peter Weiglin Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: sjlash PM
To: omnibus@datatamers.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:
From: Date: Wednesday,
Subject: [PRR] From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:56:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter, Since you show on the masthead of "N-Scale", I can't help but wonder if you aren't trying to get all us PRR modelers in that scale to cancel our subscriptions????? ; To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's > Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The > only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 > locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The > Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are > indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not > have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara > type engines? > > Peter Weiglin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:22:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: We're all familiar with the ore traffic through the Susquehanna Division up to Mt. Carmel... and I've got the "Arranged Freight Schedules" of symbol freights off the Susquehanna Division over the Rockville Bridge into Enola... But did any mineral traffic (coal) come down the Susquehanna Division into Enola or Harrisburg? Or did it all go north? Trying to establish if there was any traffic on this route other than the scheduled freight and passenger trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:27:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <98B02C68-72C0-11D8-AF93-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Deja vu, for some... Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg more of a layover yard. Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire trip... nice! We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:38:22 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] M1a, not M1b Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry, my mistake, the 6700-6709 were M1a's. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:39:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7A98AC657D327C4180A836ED9FA027A734D0E8@fbpa1mx1.fbcs-inc.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Forget it, this guy is trying to cause controversy, and he apparently does not know the plans for Viagra's and Hudson's were found in a PRR design shop dumpster. Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:46:51 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I recall seeing pictures in books, (unciteable because i'm at school) that had Reading T1's sitting on the outbound tracks in Harrisburg yard destined for a transfer to Rutherford. Also would there have been enough reefer traffic for the Swift plant and other car traffic for Harrisburg Steel? IMHO I would guess that if Enola was the main through-point yard that they would transfer LCL blocks and cars destined for Harrisburg industries to Harrisburg Yard to sort for locals. Theres also the point of freight southbound on the Royalton Branch. What i'm saying is Harrisburg Yard would be used as a main departing point for locals east of Harrisburg on the Mainline. I'm only tossing out some specualtion of possiblities. Best Regards, John Jerry Britton wrote: Deja vu, for some... Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg more of a layover yard. Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire trip... nice! We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:56:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:46 PM, John Frantz wrote: > I recall seeing pictures in books, (unciteable because i'm at school) > that had Reading T1's sitting on the outbound tracks in Harrisburg > yard destined for a transfer to Rutherford. Also would there have been > enough reefer traffic for the Swift plant and other car traffic for > Harrisburg Steel? You are totally missing the point, John. We are looking for traffic other than local classification. There were four trips (or more) between Enola and Rutherford daily, via Harrisburg. There are photos of Pennsy L1's, Reading Trainmasters, Pennsy GP9's, and Reading T1's in this service. As for local traffic, there were dozens of industries in Harrisburg. The Swift plant, Harrisburg Steel, and the steel plant in Steelton would have generated a lot of traffic. But that still would not be enough to require the sizes of yards that Harrisburg had. > IMHO I would guess that if Enola was the main through-point yard that > they would transfer LCL blocks and cars destined for Harrisburg > industries to Harrisburg Yard to sort for locals. Theres also the > point of freight southbound on the Royalton Branch. What i'm saying is > Harrisburg Yard would be used as a main departing point for locals > east of Harrisburg on the Mainline. I'm only tossing out some > specualtion of possiblities. > >> Jerry Britton wrote: >> Deja vu, for some... >> >> Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol >> freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... >> very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg >> had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just >> sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through >> Harrisburg? >> >> Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- >> then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make >> Harrisburg more of a layover yard. >> >> Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the >> Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the >> Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for >> the entire trip... nice! >> >> We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the >> passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put >> them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:00:41 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [151.199.98.179] at Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:00:32 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Forget it, this guy is trying to cause controversy, and he apparently > does not know > the plans for Viagra's and Hudson's were found in a PRR design shop > dumpster. that must be the locomotive with the extra strong side rods? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] a C&O fan's interest in the PRR From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:12:43 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:34:14 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Perhaps running him oput of town on a rail (a cherry red hot one right from the rolling mill) would be more appropriate. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:40:25 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:27:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting > freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through > Harrisburg? Jerry, I always thought that was primarily for serving Steelton's mills and the meat packing plants. That would mean all incoming raw products -- coal, coke, scrap iron/steel, limestone, magnesium, zinc, molybdium (sp?), and all the other additives used in steel making. Outgoing would be steel products and by-products. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:44:17 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry wrote --in part-- > > Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in > passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, > with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains > 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern > Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally > replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the > E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains > would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest > record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? > Great question which I have often wondered about. Related to this question is how long did these M1's keep a 110P75 or 130P75 tender. A couple of candidates from available photos: 6810: --Keystone Sep 79, p. 15. The caption says it is a troop train in 1946, but I have always been suspicious of its accuracy. 1946 is pretty early for those "bullseye" markers. --Keystone Spring 88, p. 29. With 130P75 in Sep. 56 so it was available for pax service this late. 6845: --Keystone June 79, p. 4. On train 570 near Sunbury, summer 1954. Another suspicious caption date: there are milk tank cars in the train--in 1954?? 6861: --Keystone Spring 87, p. 32. On train 570 in Sunbury April 1951. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:59:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 03:44 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > 6810: > --Keystone Spring 88, p. 29. With 130P75 in Sep. 56 so it was > available for > pax service this late. Wow, that could be a holy grail! > > 6845: > --Keystone June 79, p. 4. On train 570 near Sunbury, summer 1954. > Another > suspicious caption date: there are milk tank cars in the train--in > 1954?? Possibly. I know of milk cars being picked up at Huntingdon in 1952 and heading east to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:56:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've heard stories from a first hand source that grew up in Huntington about an L1 putting a local Milk reefer on the end of The Juniata and the train would take it to Philadelphia and the reffer would return the nex t day or two on the same train westbound. He actually built an N scale module depicting the scene. -John Jerry Britton wrote: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 03:44 PM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > 6810: > --Keystone Spring 88, p. 29. With 130P75 in Sep. 56 so it >was > available for > pax service this late. Wow, that could be a holy grail! > > 6845: > --Keystone June 79, p. 4. On train 570 near Sunbury, >summer 1954. > Another > suspicious caption date: there are milk tank cars in the >train--in > 1954?? Possibly. I know of milk cars being picked up at Huntingdon in 1952 and heading east to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:04:02 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gang, I wonder how many spamblockers trashed the two replies where 4-8-4's were confuised with little blue pills? I wondered at first why two messages with the subject " (PRR)Keystone and T1's" were in my trash can! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's > Perhaps running him oput of town on a rail (a cherry red hot one right from the rolling mill) would be more appropriate. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:30:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry and list, Is it possible we look in the wrong direction for traffic through Harrisburg. Without certainty to time periods, large amounts of MTs were routed away from the heavy classification of Enola, mostly just rounding out westbound tonnage as required, with per diem the only consideration other than general destination. Worth looking into. These were on the opposite end of symbol freights! Bob McKay Along the Susquehanna in N scale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's > Deja vu, for some... > > Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights > moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few > went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very > sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting > freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? > > Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- > then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg > more of a layover yard. > > Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the > Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle > Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire > trip... nice! > > We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger > main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through > Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:10:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: "Frederic H. Abendschein" From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:45:38 -0500 Re: Trashing a T1 and praising a Hudson and Niagara in the same post! Forget tar and feathering: Banishment!!! Or perhaps castration. Al ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C406E9.0744EA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Re: = Trashing a T1 and praising a Hudson and = Niagara in the=20 same post!  Forget tar and feathering:=20 Banishment!!!
 
Or perhaps castration.=20 <G>
 
Al
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C406E9.0744EA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:59:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Milk cars on PRR in the 1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:31:40 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben Hom writes: > BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and the car lining. > Ben Hom Another interesting term used by modelers/historians is the term "HAT BRACE". The steel industry actually calls these critters... Round Edged Flanged Channels... or "REFC". When buying such critters you'll probably find the steel distributor hang the phone up laughing at you if you ask for "HAT BRACING"... ... under the column of soooz ya noe... 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:45:41 GMT Subject: [PRR] Milk Run From: Dominic Mazoch Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:42:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Harrisburg yard From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <3195026BBF3C1140B196176D0EFBF97302A0E068@e2k1.Fullerton.EDU> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Protecting the privacy of those who commented off-list... I have received numerous responses about traffic through Harrisburg, in addition to the obvious local classifications and traffic: > As far as I can tell, in '56 the yard was used for mineral > traffic. Eastbound > coal and westbound ore did use Harrisburg yard, with P5a's and FA/FB > units running east of Harrisburg. Motive power crossed the CV bridge > with their cabin car. I think one of the Carleton books had > some black and white photos of six hopper trains sitting side by side > with an M1a and an RS-11 running next to them. Also in '56, the TT's > ran > thru Harrisburg. I haven't scoured the '56 ETT to determine what > other freight trains came thru the 'burg but my plan is to focus on the > ore/coal movements. It varied with the season but in March of '56 > they had from 1 to 4 daily westbound ore movements. I've gotten other reports that both eastbound main line coal AND eastbound coal off the Buffalo line went through Harrisburg, to keep the trains not requiring classification out of Enola. At Harrisburg there were indeed long relay tracks, and loco swaps could take place. Note that steam did, however, run on some trains even under wire. The above notes Alco's and P5a's east of Harrisburg. Stauffer notes westbound ore with two M1's at head and an I1 at rear on ore trains for the whole trip over the Middle Division in 1954. Would they put the cabin behind the I1? In later years GP9's are seen on this service...sometimes with five units at head. As for the TT's... In '54 the TOFC traffic was carried on LCL trains. Arranged Freight Schedules show times for these trains at both DAY and BANKS, so the LCL's went through Enola. At some point a TOFC terminal was added at Harrisburg. Also, the TT trains started in March 1955. Perhaps at this time they began using the Harrisburg routing. This has all been very helpful for my modeling and I thank all who responded. I am modeling 1954 and have parts of the Pittsburgh and Middle divisions modeled, which will depict eastbound coal. However, I am not modeling Enola (just hidden staging) but I am modeling Harrisburg. This new info about mineral routing will enable me to extend the visible run of coal trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:42:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Harrisburg yard From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: <3195026BBF3C1140B196176D0EFBF97302A0E068@e2k1.Fullerton.EDU> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Protecting the privacy of those who commented off-list... I have received numerous responses about traffic through Harrisburg, in addition to the obvious local classifications and traffic: > As far as I can tell, in '56 the yard was used for mineral > traffic. Eastbound > coal and westbound ore did use Harrisburg yard, with P5a's and FA/FB > units running east of Harrisburg. Motive power crossed the CV bridge > with their cabin car. I think one of the Carleton books had > some black and white photos of six hopper trains sitting side by side > with an M1a and an RS-11 running next to them. Also in '56, the TT's > ran > thru Harrisburg. I haven't scoured the '56 ETT to determine what > other freight trains came thru the 'burg but my plan is to focus on the > ore/coal movements. It varied with the season but in March of '56 > they had from 1 to 4 daily westbound ore movements. I've gotten other reports that both eastbound main line coal AND eastbound coal off the Buffalo line went through Harrisburg, to keep the trains not requiring classification out of Enola. At Harrisburg there were indeed long relay tracks, and loco swaps could take place. Note that steam did, however, run on some trains even under wire. The above notes Alco's and P5a's east of Harrisburg. Stauffer notes westbound ore with two M1's at head and an I1 at rear on ore trains for the whole trip over the Middle Division in 1954. Would they put the cabin behind the I1? In later years GP9's are seen on this service...sometimes with five units at head. As for the TT's... In '54 the TOFC traffic was carried on LCL trains. Arranged Freight Schedules show times for these trains at both DAY and BANKS, so the LCL's went through Enola. At some point a TOFC terminal was added at Harrisburg. Also, the TT trains started in March 1955. Perhaps at this time they began using the Harrisburg routing. This has all been very helpful for my modeling and I thank all who responded. I am modeling 1954 and have parts of the Pittsburgh and Middle divisions modeled, which will depict eastbound coal. However, I am not modeling Enola (just hidden staging) but I am modeling Harrisburg. This new info about mineral routing will enable me to extend the visible run of coal trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] RE: coal traffic via Ft. Wayne? Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:56:20 +0000 >From: Frederick Ripley >Subject: coal traffic via Ft. Wayne? >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:46:08 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:40:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 09:09 AM, Bill Volkmer wrote: > During the mid-1960s there was a mostly=A0coal train called AN-16 that=20= > ran (daily) Altoona to Northumberland. The coal was relayed from=20 > Northumberland to Wilkes Barre on S-97 and the rest of the freight=20 > was=A0 put out on locals on the various branch lines to Selinsgrove,=20= > Berwick, Lykens Vy etc.=A0 Don't know if this run existed in=A0 1954.=A0= I=20 > wasn't around at that time. > Bill, wouldn't that have gone across the Bald Eagle Branch? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Milk Cars on the Buffalo Line Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:43:19 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Indeed Sheffield Farms had dairy farms in North Central PA. In particular they had farms on the Bald Eagle Branch which generated milk traffic. Milk cars for the New York City area came off the branch at Lock Haven, went west to Renovo for icing, then headed east for the NYC area on RJ-4, a train of milk reefers pulled by either a G-5 or a K-4. When behind a K-4 it often made better time than the Broadway once it hit the mainline as it didn't have to make the station stops. The G-5's didn't have the speed, however. The first of the two articles in the Keystone on Renovo (early 80's?) shows a picture of a train departing Renovo with a milk tank on the rear. There is an earlier Keystone with a picture of RJ-4 on the cover as I remember. Clarence Weaver's (Penn Valley) "Susquehanna Division" video shows a few of these milk trains off the branches heading for Harrisburg. They may have some color shots of some of these milk reefers, although as I remember they were quite dirty. My books on milk reefers are black and white, unfortunately. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:48:25 -0600 From: "Bill Volkmer" VGhhdCBpcyBjb3JyZWN0LiAgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZXkgbWFkZSBwaWNrdXBzIGFuZCBzZXQtb2Zm cyBhdCBUeXJvbmUsIEJlbGxlZm9udGUsIExvY2sgSGF2ZW4gZXRjLiAgQXJyaXZhbCB0aW1lIHdh cyBoaWdobHkgdW5wcmVkaWN0YWJsZSBpbiBOb3J0aHVtYmVybGFuZCBidXQgd2FzIHVzdWFsbHkg aW4gbGF0ZSBhZnRlcm5vb24uICBUaGVyZSB3YXMgbm8gd2VzdGJvdW5kIGNvdW50ZXJwYXJ0IHNv IHRoZSBwb3dlciB3YXMgdXN1YWxseSBhZGRlZCB0byBhIHNvdXRoYm91bmQgQnVmZmFsbyBmcmVp Z2h0IGZvciBmZXJyeWluZyB0byBFbm9sYS4NCg0KCS0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0t IA0KCUZyb206IEplcnJ5IEJyaXR0b24gW21haWx0bzpqZXJyeUBwZW5uc3lyci5jb21dIA0KCVNl bnQ6IFRodSAzLzExLzIwMDQgODo0MCBBTSANCglUbzogQmlsbCBWb2xrbWVyIA0KCUNjOiBQUlIt dGFsa0Bkc29wLmNvbSANCglTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW1BSUl0gU3VzcXVlaGFubmEgRGl2aXNpb24g RnJlaWdodCBUcmFmZmljIE1pZC0xOTUwJ3MNCgkNCgkNCg0KCU9uIFRodXJzZGF5LCBNYXJjaCAx MSwgMjAwNCwgYXQgMDk6MDkgIEFNLCBCaWxsIFZvbGttZXIgd3JvdGU6DQoJDQoJPiBEdXJpbmcg dGhlIG1pZC0xOTYwcyB0aGVyZSB3YXMgYSBtb3N0bHkgY29hbCB0cmFpbiBjYWxsZWQgQU4tMTYg dGhhdA0KCT4gcmFuIChkYWlseSkgQWx0b29uYSB0byBOb3J0aHVtYmVybGFuZC4gVGhlIGNvYWwg d2FzIHJlbGF5ZWQgZnJvbQ0KCT4gTm9ydGh1bWJlcmxhbmQgdG8gV2lsa2VzIEJhcnJlIG9uIFMt OTcgYW5kIHRoZSByZXN0IG9mIHRoZSBmcmVpZ2h0DQoJPiB3YXMgIHB1dCBvdXQgb24gbG9jYWxz IG9uIHRoZSB2YXJpb3VzIGJyYW5jaCBsaW5lcyB0byBTZWxpbnNncm92ZSwNCgk+IEJlcndpY2ss IEx5a2VucyBWeSBldGMuICBEb24ndCBrbm93IGlmIHRoaXMgcnVuIGV4aXN0ZWQgaW4gIDE5NTQu ICBJDQoJPiB3YXNuJ3QgYXJvdW5kIGF0IHRoYXQgdGltZS4NCgk+DQoJDQoJQmlsbCwgd291bGRu J3QgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGdvbmUgYWNyb3NzIHRoZSBCYWxkIEVhZ2xlIEJyYW5jaD8NCgktLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KCUpl cnJ5IEJyaXR0b24sIFNQRiAgIE1lbWJlciwgUFJSVCZIUyAgIGplcnJ5QHBlbm5zeXJyLmNvbQ0K CVBlbm5zeWx2YW5pYSBSYWlscm9hZCwgRWFzdGVybiBSZWdpb24sIDE5NTQgaW4gTiBTY2FsZS4N CgkiS2V5c3RvbmUgQ3Jvc3NpbmdzIiAtIEhvbWUgb2YgdGhlICJQUlItVGFsayIgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0IQ0KCSAgICAgaHR0cDovL2tjLnBlbm5zeXJyLmNvbQ0KCSJNZXJjaGFuZGlzZSBTZXJ2aWNl IiAtIE1vZGVsIHJhaWxyb2FkIHByb2R1Y3RzLi4uDQoJICAgICBodHRwOi8vbWVyY2hhbmRpc2Uu cGVubnN5cnIuY29tDQoJDQoNCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40780.4A78D60B Content-Type: text/html; 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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:37:28 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Milk Cars on the Buffalo Line From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:09:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Milk Cans Hello List, Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that milk cans were transported on the PRR? Would someone define "milk cars" for me please? Were they reefers, insulated boxes, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were they tank cars specifically used for hauling milk? Did PRR have cars specifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, insulated boxes, plain boxes? Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the creamery and what detail stuff I'll need. Thanks. BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Hello List,

Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that m= ilk cans were transported on the PRR?  Would someo= ne define "milk cars" for me please?  Were they reefers, insulated boxe= s, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were th= ey tank cars specifically used for hauling milk?  Did PRR have cars spe= cifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, ins= ulated boxes, plain boxes?

Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the crea= mery and what detail stuff I'll need.

Thanks.

BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale<= /FONT>= )
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:09:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Milk Cans Hello List, Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that milk cans were transported on the PRR? Would someone define "milk cars" for me please? Were they reefers, insulated boxes, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were they tank cars specifically used for hauling milk? Did PRR have cars specifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, insulated boxes, plain boxes? Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the creamery and what detail stuff I'll need. Thanks. BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Hello List,

Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that m= ilk cans were transported on the PRR?  Would someo= ne define "milk cars" for me please?  Were they reefers, insulated boxe= s, or plain boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were th= ey tank cars specifically used for hauling milk?  Did PRR have cars spe= cifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic reefers, ins= ulated boxes, plain boxes?

Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the crea= mery and what detail stuff I'll need.

Thanks.

BOB MARTIN, President & Superintendent
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale<= /FONT>= )
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_165.2c2ca42e.2d820553_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:28:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Altoona Festivities Announcement... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I teased you a few weeks ago... Here goes... March 11, 2004 150th Anniversary Of "Horseshoe Curve" Features Major Fourth Of July Tribute Norfolk Southern and OSRAM SYLVANIA Engineer Lighting Extravaganza; This Year's Event Will Trump the 1954 "SYLVANIA Big Shot" ALTOONA, PA - With the commemoration of Horseshoe Curve's 150th anniversary this year, the Railroaders Heritage Corporation today announced that it will "pull out all the stops" with a major evening spectacular on July 4th. This extraordinary event will be reminiscent of the famous 1954 "SYLVANIA Big Shot," which featured the simultaneous deployment of more than 6,500 SYLVANIA Blue Dot flashbulbs to light Horseshoe Curve. This time, OSRAM SYLVANIA and Norfolk Southern will provide technology, equipment and sizzle for the celebration of this major transportation and engineering milestone in American history. "We are excited to once again help bring notice to such an important moment in American history," said Scott Cessna, executive director of the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona. "In 1854, an enterprising young civil engineer named J. Edgar Thomson opened the first railway to scale the mighty Allegheny Mountains in Central Pennsylvania. To avoid a sharp incline, which would be impossible for heavy steam trains to manage, Thomson routed the right-of-way in a horseshoe shape, so the rise would be gradual. The feat was considered a major engineering masterpiece at the time and was pivotal to opening commerce across the continental U.S." The American Society of Civil Engineers recently recognized Horseshoe Curve as a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark during a ceremony in Altoona. "Horseshoe Curve is a vital component of Norfolk Southern's 22-state freight rail network," said David R. Goode, Norfolk Southern's chairman, president and chief executive officer. "The 150th year of operation of this American industrial and engineering landmark, its role in the westward expansion of the U.S. and its continuing importance to the national economy are certainly deserving of celebration." Today, an average of 60 Norfolk Southern freight trains and four Amtrak passenger trains operate over Horseshoe Curve daily. This volume translates into more than 100 million gross tons of freight annually. Commodities coming through Horseshoe Curve include mail, consumer goods, coal, finished automobiles, construction material and agricultural products. SYLVANIA technology continues to focus public awareness on the remarkable feat of engineering that Horseshoe Curve represents. In 1954, SYLVANIA and the Pennsylvania Railroad captured the imagination of children and adults alike with the illumination of Horseshoe Curve, which was the sixth in a series of 18 photographic achievements known as Big Shots. All 18 Big Shots were illuminated using SYLVANIA flashbulb technology. Photographs of the 1954 event can be found at www.railroadcity.com/hsc1954. "We recognize the historical significance of the anniversary of the construction of Horseshoe Curve and are pleased to support the recreation of the spectacle of the first lighting. As we did in the past, we will be using the most innovative products available on the market today," said Charlie Jerabek, president and CEO of OSRAM SYLVANIA. "Many of the lighting products available through OSRAM SYLVANIA today were developed within the last five years." In order to provide the safest and most comfortable atmosphere for the celebration, the event will be ticketed. Entertainment will be provided the entire day both at the Railroaders Memorial Museum in Altoona and Horseshoe Curve, culminating with the lighting of Horseshoe Curve and a display from Zambelli Fireworks Internationale - the "First Family of Fireworks." Ticket information is available by contacting the Railroaders Memorial Museum at 1-888-4ALTOONA. About Railroaders Heritage Corporation Railroaders Heritage Corporation is a not-for-profit organization established in 1972 with offices in Altoona, PA. The Corporation owns and operates two significant historic sites in the Altoona area - the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark and the Railroaders Memorial Museum. It is the mission of the Railroaders Heritage Corporation to reveal, interpret, commemorate and celebrate the significant contributions of railroaders and their families to American life, past and present. Please visit us at www.railroadcity.com. About Norfolk Southern Corporation Norfolk Southern Corporation is one of the nation's premier transportation companies. Its Norfolk Southern Railway subsidiary operates 21,500 route miles in 22 states, the District of Columbia and Ontario, serving every major container port in the eastern United States and providing superior connections to western rail carriers. NS operates the most extensive intermodal network in the East and is the nation's largest rail carrier of automotive parts and finished vehicles. For further information, please visit our Web site at www.nscorp.com. About OSRAM SYLVANIA Headquartered in Danvers, Mass., OSRAM SYLVANIA is the North American lighting operation of OSRAM GmbH. Together we are the second-largest lighting and materials enterprise in the world, serving customers in more than 140 countries. We manufacture and market a wide range of lighting products, including automotive, electronic and magnetic ballasts, and precision materials and components for industrial and commercial users, original equipment manufacturers and consumers, sold primarily under the SYLVANIA brand name, but also under the OSRAM brand. OSRAM SYLVANIA also offers lighting systems installation and maintenance services. For further information, please refer to our Web site at www.sylvania.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:02:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Two examples of the H&BTM shuffling Suplee milk cars (reefer type, not tanks) near Bedford in 1951... http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- 19510000001.jpg http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- 19510000002.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 11:13:10 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:20:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars In a message dated 3/11/2004 2:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- > 19510000001.jpg > > http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford- > 19510000002.jpg > A space appears to have slide into each of the URLs, between the "bedford-" and the number "1951...". Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1c1.16323408.2d8215f9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message=20= dated 3/11/2004 2:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


http://www.trainweb.org/eve= rett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford-=20
19510000001.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/everett/library/hbtm/photos/hbtm37-bedford-=20
19510000002.jpg


A space appears to have slide into each of the URLs,
between the "bedford-" and the number "1951...".

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1c1.16323408.2d8215f9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:52:18 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/11/2004 2:13:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > In the early 1930's in PA, milk production > and marketing became subject to something called the Milk Control > Committee, which a couple years later became the Milk Marketing > Control Board. > > It's advent also seems to have affected, perhaps > eliminated, the > operation of out-of-state dairy companies in PA. Until 1972 when the state Department of Agriculture took over the milk inspection program, Allegheny County Health Department staff were traveling to dairy farms as far away as Wisconsin to inspect the raw milk handling, sanitation conditions and the health of the herd. This milk was being brought into the County by truck and train. The primary delivery points being the Borden and Sealtest ice cream plants (both now long gone). Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:06:45 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Milk cars on PRR in the 1950's Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:01:54 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm surprised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks. BTW, documentation says they are black (the flats, not the tanks). My planned milk train will include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin car is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70. The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of Chicago) were Pullman green with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents..... I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train operated between Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the merger. I have a wheel report for the train and it is a "CB&Q Classification" Most of the cars in this train are bound for the west coast. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents..... I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train operated between Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the merger. I have a wheel report for the train and it is a "CB&Q Classification" Most of the cars in this train are bound for the west coast. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] M1b & N8 question Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:45:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I will ask my N8 question first. Did the N8 get the yellow side handrails and step edges? I went to the PRR Museum in Strasburg last week for the first time in about 4-5 years. It was the first time I have been there since getting my digital camera. In short the digital camera made my detail-hunting day great. I answered my first "where does that pipe go" question. But it made me wonder about a few more. Does anyone have a good pipe route photo of this area on the M1 before it was dismantled? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/M1_pipe.jpg I need to know how and where the pipe goes after it leaves the front air tank. I imagine it finds its way back to the compressors. I shot 325 photos, mostly detail shots of the X29, Gs gon, L1, M1b loco and tender, K4, X54, Rail Whale, and N5c. I got some "purty" shots of the GP30, GP9 and E7 as well. It is 827 MB of photos. I will give a copy of these photos which obviously is more then one CD to the first person who can help me route that air tank pipe. BTW, you will be able to make a razor sharp 8 x 10 of every photo I took. If you like draft gear photos you will not be disappointed here! Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:06:21 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: omnibus@datatamers.com writes: > The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? > > Peter Weiglin Peter, Peter, Peter.... Didn't you mother teach you better...? Never mention those two competitors in mixed company.... You must not grasp what we all seem to see in this "beast"... Untamed power and misunderstood technology in an era that technology was an infant... As you put it... "The Penn people" were only overshadowed and over burdened by the Volkswagens of the industry... the EMD's "BUG" the F7 and the "Beetle" the E7... Slipping at speed, a feat that the EMD "Beetle" could never have achieved... AAAHHHH! Those must have been the days! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:12:46 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Osgood-Bradley American Flyer Coach formerly in Sunnyside From: "Jerry M. LaBoda" Subject: [N-scaleVarnish] Re: Osgood-Bradley American Flyer Coaches From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:26:54 EST Subject: [PRR] re: Milk cars I'm surprised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks. BTW, documentation says they are black (the flats, not the tanks). My planned milk train will include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin car is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70. The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of Chicago) were Pullman green with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest. Bob Zoeller Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probably happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight trains. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm sur= prised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company
flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks.  BTW, documentation= says
they are black (the flats, not the tanks).  My planned milk train will<= BR> include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round=
bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin=20= car
is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish=
milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70.

The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of=
Chicago) were Pullman green  with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's
butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver<= BR> with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest.<= BR>
Bob Zoeller


Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probabl= y happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight train= s. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:26:54 EST Subject: [PRR] re: Milk cars I'm surprised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks. BTW, documentation says they are black (the flats, not the tanks). My planned milk train will include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin car is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70. The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of Chicago) were Pullman green with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest. Bob Zoeller Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probably happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight trains. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm sur= prised you Easterners are leaving out the North American Car Company
flat cars with removable Supplee or Borden's tanks.  BTW, documentation= says
they are black (the flats, not the tanks).  My planned milk train will<= BR> include an R50b, B60, Borden's General American Pfaudler 50+foot steel round=
bottom car which included two internal tanks (brass car---the F&C resin=20= car
is seemingly made of Kevlar which resists all drills), a Borden's butterdish=
milk tanker, the North American car, and a PB70.

The GPEX cars, at least for Hood's and Borden's (and I think Bowman's out of=
Chicago) were Pullman green  with gold leaf lettering. The Borden's
butterdish cars were in several schemes, white with black lettering, silver<= BR> with black lettering, red with ? lettering (too lazy to look it up). Dunno about Supplee or Sheffield Farms cars, being a flatlander from the midwest.<= BR>
Bob Zoeller


Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probabl= y happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight train= s. Todd Horton --part1_142.241e855e.2d8287fe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:45:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] M1b & N8 question Hi All, I will ask my N8 question first. Did the N8 get the yellow side handrails and step edges? I went to the PRR Museum in Strasburg last week for the first time in about 4-5 years. It was the first time I have been there since getting my digital camera. In short the digital camera made my detail-hunting day great. I answered my first "where does that pipe go" question. But it made me wonder about a few more. Does anyone have a good pipe route photo of this area on the M1 before it was dismantled? http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/M1_pipe.jpg I need to know how and where the pipe goes after it leaves the front air tank. I imagine it finds its way back to the compressors. I shot 325 photos, mostly detail shots of the X29, Gs gon, L1, M1b loco and tender, K4, X54, Rail Whale, and N5c. I got some "purty" shots of the GP30, GP9 and E7 as well. It is 827 MB of photos. I will give a copy of these photos which obviously is more then one CD to the first person who can help me route that air tank pipe. BTW, you will be able to make a razor sharp 8 x 10 of every photo I took. If you like draft gear photos you will not be disappointed here! Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Kadee H34a Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:33:55 -0600 New from Kadee. http://www.kadee.com/ca/ps2/8311l.htm Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
New from Kadee.
 
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] Kadee H34a Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:33:55 -0600 New from Kadee. http://www.kadee.com/ca/ps2/8311l.htm Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
New from Kadee.
 
http://www.kadee.com/ca/ps= 2/8311l.htm
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_04C9_01C407B8.EFE3D800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:55:35 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR steam number plates Greetings to everyone, Can someone tell me why some PRR steam will have a round number plate on smokebox and others will have a keystone? Thank you!!!! Steve Panopoulos --part1_79.242da754.2d82aad7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Greetings to everyone,
Can someone tell me why some PRR steam will have a round number plate on smo= kebox and others will have a keystone?
Thank you!!!!
Steve Panopoulos --part1_79.242da754.2d82aad7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:29:55 GMT Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars From: Dominic Mazoch From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:31:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Fred R.,Ted and Lists I think the "CB&Q Classification" means that the entire train will be handed over to the Burlington in Chicago. According to the wheel report, only two cars of the consist is destine for Chicago. The rest are headed for points on the CB&Q. (Seattle,Spokane,Tacoma) But this is before the train reaches Enola. This wheel report is for Harsimus Cove and Waverly Yards. There is a block of cars for the UP(North Platte). Looks like AC-1 only makes pick ups at Enola and Conway. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:42:56 GMT Subject: [PRR] Milk Tanks on Flatcar From: Dominic Mazoch From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:14:27 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Tanks on Flatcar Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:17:59 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:40:35 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 From: Frederick Ripley Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:15:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Interesting tidbit on page 65 of the Philadelphia Division ETT from 9/26/54... 1156-A2. Harrisburg Passenger Station -- Tracks 3, 6, 7, 24, 1-E, all tracks in Mulberry Street, State Street and Cumberland Valley Yards and all single end tracks are storage tracks. What caught my eye is tracks "3, 6, and 7", which are through tracks through the station that are dedicated for storage. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR steam number plates Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:10:04 -0500 Steve, Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number plates. Starting in = 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger locomotives only. = It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b types got = keystone number plates because they were considered dual service power = or if PRR had decided that all power was to get keystone number plates, = but by the time new power came along in WW II, the J's and the Q's got = keystones, although they were strictly freight, as did the N&W Y3's = bought used. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: STEVEGG1@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:55 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR steam number plates Greetings to everyone, Can someone tell me why some PRR steam will have a round number plate = on smokebox and others will have a keystone?=20 Thank you!!!! Steve Panopoulos ------=_NextPart_000_03FB_01C4081A.30695D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve,
 
Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number = plates.=20 Starting in 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger = locomotives=20 only. It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b = types got=20 keystone number plates because they were considered dual service = power or=20 if PRR had decided that all power was to get keystone number plates, but = by the=20 time new power came along in WW II, the J's and the Q's got keystones, = although=20 they were strictly freight, as did the N&W Y3's bought = used.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 STEVEGG1@aol.com=20
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 = 12:55=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRR steam number = plates

Greetings to everyone,
Can = someone tell me=20 why some PRR steam will have a round number plate on smokebox and = others will=20 have a keystone?
Thank you!!!!
Steve Panopoulos=20 ------=_NextPart_000_03FB_01C4081A.30695D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:17:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Use of Bell From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <59103CA2-7438-11D8-8293-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In the Atlas Forum, someone asked about the use of the bell, generically speaking (not PRR specific). I think we normally think of the bell for passenger trains arriving and departing, locos backup up, etc. But I thought I'd check the rules. However, I cannot find the rules! I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division ETT (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! Where would one fine the official "use of bell" rules? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:33:30 -0600 Subject: Re: { SPAM 1 }::Re: [PRR] PRR steam number plates From: Bruce Smith Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 09:10 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Steve, > =A0 > Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number plates. Starting in=20 > 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger locomotives=20 > only. It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b=20 > types got keystone number plates because they were=A0considered dual=20= > service power Greg beat me to the original reply so I'll add this to his...The=20 M1s originally got round plates except those assigned to passenger=20 service. When the M1As were built with keystones, the M1s were=20 upgraded to keystones...the M1/M1A may have been a "dual service"=20 locomotive, but most were assigned to freight duties, and only 10 M1As=20= carried passenger equipped tenders so the intent was to use most of=20 them on freight only. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin=20 Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-4--133320839 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 09:10 AM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: Steve, =A0 Originally, all PRR locomotive had round number plates. Starting in 1926, the PRR put keystone number plates on passenger locomotives only. It is not clear to me whether all the M1's, including a and b types got keystone number plates because they were=A0considered dual service power=20 Greg beat me to the original reply < so I'll add this to his...The M1s originally got round plates except those assigned to passenger service. When the M1As were built with keystones, the M1s were upgraded to keystones...the M1/M1A may have been a "dual service" locomotive, but most were assigned to freight duties, and only 10 M1As carried passenger equipped tenders so the intent was to use most of them on freight only. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. =20 Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0= --Apple-Mail-4--133320839-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Use of Bell Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:12:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division ETT (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! It's Rule 30 - "The engine bell or warning signal must be sounded when an engine is about to move, when running through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at grade and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." Revised effective 10-27-57. The language added in 1957 from earlier editions was "or warning signal." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Use of Bell Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:13:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division ETT (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! It's Rule 30 - "The engine bell or warning signal must be sounded when an engine is about to move, when running through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at grade and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." Revised effective 10-27-57. The language added in 1957 from earlier editions was "or warning signal." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:16:48 -0500 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:23:35 -0500 Resent-Message-Id: Resent-To: PRR-Talk LIST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of Bell From: Jerry Britton To: "Al Buchan" Message-Id: <9CAF7D3A-7441-11D8-8293-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Resent-From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 11:11 AM, Al Buchan wrote: >> Re I checked the Book of Rules as well as the Philadelphia Division >> ETT >> (9/54) and could not find rules about the use of the bell! > > You didn't look very hard it's Rule 30 - "The engine bell or warning > signal must be sounded when an engine is about to move, when running > through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at > grade > and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." Revised > effective 10-27-57. The language added in 1957 from earlier editions > was "or warning signal." Thanks! I notice no mention of passenger train approaching a station or when a loco is reversing. Are those "fictitious" situations often practiced on model railroads? "30. The engine bell must be rung when an engine is about to move, when running through tunnels, while approaching and passing public crossings at grade and when passing a train standing on an adjacent track." (1951 BoR, p. 23, certified through 1954) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:49:22 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of Bell Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Guys: Rule 30 says: >> "The engine bell or warning signal must be sounded when an engine is >> about to move..." > Jerry asks: > > I notice no mention of ... when a loco is reversing. Are those > "fictitious" situations often practiced on model railroads? Doesn't "about to move" include reversing???? Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:10:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm getting more and more interested in the milk car discussion. Unfortunately I can't answer the original question of whether PRR hauled milk cars in 1954, even though I'm reasonably sure they did. It seems to me that they (and most northeastern railroads) hauled milk cars at least through the end of steam and more or less through the end of passenger service, as it was the passenger trains that hauled the milk cars. NY and PA are still chock full of dairy farms, ranging in size from quite small to quite large. Today the milk is hauled by trucks. A visit to any grocery store from the biggest to the smallest reveals a milk section full of milk with daily deliveries to the largest stores, and at least every other day delivery to the smaller ones. Considering the huge number of grocery stores in even medium sized cities, milk and milk products are clearly a big business. Therefore, so are dairies, and here in west central NY there are a number of large dairies and bottling plants around. I imagine most farms now truck their own milk to dairies, and I imagine the smaller ones still use milk cans. Has anyone tried to research this topic by looking into the milk and dairy industry instead of railroads? I certainly remember lots and lots of refrigerator cars and livestock cars on the Nickel Plate, the railroad I lived near, in the '50's. Here in dairy farm country there had to be as many. The NYO&W Historical Society has an excellent book on milk cars and milk trains available through their society, and probably available through the larger railroad bookstores (and no doubt Amazon.com). The O&W lasted until 1957. Unfortunately I can't put my finger on my copy or my other milk car and express reefer books at the moment, but let's keep this thread going - it's an interesting question! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:19:03 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:30:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 12:10 PM, William Bigler wrote: > > I'm getting more and more interested in the milk car discussion. > Unfortunately I can't answer the original question of whether PRR > hauled > milk cars in 1954 Geez, this is sounding more and more like how I got involved in reefers -- which culminated in the reefer page on KC! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] R50b weathering Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:32:30 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:45:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: So Jerry, clearly sounds like time for a milk car/milk industry page(s)! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "William Bigler" Cc: Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars > On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 12:10 PM, William Bigler wrote: > > > > > I'm getting more and more interested in the milk car discussion. > > Unfortunately I can't answer the original question of whether PRR > > hauled > > milk cars in 1954 > > Geez, this is sounding more and more like how I got involved in reefers > -- which culminated in the reefer page on KC! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:29:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Milk Cars List, Thanks a bunch to all who replied, on line and off, to my inquiry regarding milk cars. I received a wealth of information both direct and indirect. Bob Martin CPRR --part1_10e.2d547900.2d835b7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" List,

Thanks a bunch to all who replied, on line and off, to my inquiry regard= ing milk cars.  I received a wealth of information both direct and indi= rect.

Bob Martin
CPRR --part1_10e.2d547900.2d835b7b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: frbob@clearnet.net (Bob McKay) Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:59:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Were station tracks 3 and 6 used as holding tracks for equipment coming off or on through trains using the main platform and tracks 4 and 5? Was track 7 for mail storage? And when did the bridge to the post office originate and disappear? Bob McKay Susquehanna Division 1965 in N scale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 9:15 AM Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks > Interesting tidbit on page 65 of the Philadelphia Division ETT from > 9/26/54... > > 1156-A2. Harrisburg Passenger Station -- Tracks 3, 6, 7, 24, 1-E, all > tracks in Mulberry Street, State Street and Cumberland Valley Yards and > all single end tracks are storage tracks. > > What caught my eye is tracks "3, 6, and 7", which are through tracks > through the station that are dedicated for storage. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:02:01 -0500 From: CENTGA@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/12/2004 12:19:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > They appear to concentrate on New England and eastern New > York, I know the New England area produced a lot of milk and milk products. What I would like to see some photos of milk cars say traveling over Horseshoe. Again, I know it probably happened but I've never seen any proof of it. I model 1957 and would like to justify some milk cars for my trains. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:12:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 01:59 PM, Bob McKay wrote: > Were station tracks 3 and 6 used as holding tracks for equipment > coming off > or on through trains using the main platform and tracks 4 and 5? Was > track > 7 for mail storage? And when did the bridge to the post office > originate > and disappear? Answer to last question first. The post office wasn't even there until the 1960's...the Reading's station was. Tracks 1 & 2 were used mainly by the trains that then took the CV bridge to reach the Northern Central line to York, Baltimore and Washington. These trains carried a lot of cars that moved to other east-west trains at Harrisburg. So using track 3 for storage makes sense. It was a logical place to stash these cars for a few minutes while they waited for their connection. Track 4 is noted on valuation maps as being the "Eastbound Main". The "Westbound Main" is noted on track 7, which is in conflict. Track 6 as storage makes some sense as it is between the east and west mains. > Bob McKay > Susquehanna Division 1965 in N scale > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 9:15 AM > Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Passenger Station Storage Tracks > > >> Interesting tidbit on page 65 of the Philadelphia Division ETT from >> 9/26/54... >> >> 1156-A2. Harrisburg Passenger Station -- Tracks 3, 6, 7, 24, 1-E, all >> tracks in Mulberry Street, State Street and Cumberland Valley Yards >> and >> all single end tracks are storage tracks. >> >> What caught my eye is tracks "3, 6, and 7", which are through tracks >> through the station that are dedicated for storage. >> ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk Cans Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:16:26 -0500 Subject: PRR milk service into New York City RE: [PRR] Milk Cans

Listers,

This is from the Milk trains list.

Chris Chany

Subject: PRR milk service into New York City

Stumbled onto this website while looking for things = unrelated to milk:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/

Some PDF files with consist books are listed near the = top of the
page. Just a brief perusal turned up some very = interesting stuff
that, not being a PRR fan, I had no prior knowledge = about. It appears
the PRR did some serious hauling of milk into the = New York City area,
Long Island in particular, using both their own = Class R50b express
reefers (the ones Walthers is bringing out) as well = as milk tank cars
(I assume GPEX). Here are just two examples I found = after the
briefest of perusals:

* In 1943, there were a whole bunch of tank cars plus = an express
reefer as a can car moving from Long Island (mostly = Jamaica, from the
LIRR?) on Train #RJ-11 to various destinations in PA = (I think if I'm
guessing correctly on the abbreviations). Go = here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/MakeUpOfTrains_NYDivi= sionNo6_Nov14,19
43_300mono.pdf

and scroll down to the fourth page.

* In 1957, express reefers apparently used as can = cars from Salamanca
(NY) to Penn Station (NY) via Harrisburg (PA). Go = here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/Consists_InterRegion_= Passenger_April2
8_1957_150dpi_bw.pdf

and scroll down to Train #2. One would think any milk = out of
Salamanca would have been carried by the Erie to = Jersey City but I
guess for a dairy in New York City or out on L.I. = the PRR was the
smarter move.

I'm sure there's a lot more info to be mined from = these pages. But it
opens up an aspect of New York City milk operations = that I've never
seen written about in the usual magazines (perhaps = the PRR society
covered it). The use of PRR express reefers as can = cars is also
interesting.


------_=_NextPart_001_01C40866.83917190-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:25:27 +0000 From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:36:01 -0800 RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey = City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this = was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chany, Christopher=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk Cans Listers,=20 This is from the Milk trains list.=20 Chris Chany=20 Subject: PRR milk service into New York City=20 Stumbled onto this website while looking for things unrelated to milk: = http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/=20 Some PDF files with consist books are listed near the top of the=20 page. Just a brief perusal turned up some very interesting stuff=20 that, not being a PRR fan, I had no prior knowledge about. It appears=20 the PRR did some serious hauling of milk into the New York City area,=20 Long Island in particular, using both their own Class R50b express=20 reefers (the ones Walthers is bringing out) as well as milk tank cars=20 (I assume GPEX). Here are just two examples I found after the=20 briefest of perusals:=20 * In 1943, there were a whole bunch of tank cars plus an express=20 reefer as a can car moving from Long Island (mostly Jamaica, from the=20 LIRR?) on Train #RJ-11 to various destinations in PA (I think if I'm=20 guessing correctly on the abbreviations). Go here:=20 http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/MakeUpOfTrains_NYDivisionNo6_Nov14,19 = 43_300mono.pdf=20 and scroll down to the fourth page.=20 * In 1957, express reefers apparently used as can cars from Salamanca=20 (NY) to Penn Station (NY) via Harrisburg (PA). Go here:=20 http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/Consists_InterRegion_Passenger_April2 = 8_1957_150dpi_bw.pdf=20 and scroll down to Train #2. One would think any milk out of=20 Salamanca would have been carried by the Erie to Jersey City but I=20 guess for a dairy in New York City or out on L.I. the PRR was the=20 smarter move.=20 I'm sure there's a lot more info to be mined from these pages. But it=20 opens up an aspect of New York City milk operations that I've never=20 seen written about in the usual magazines (perhaps the PRR society=20 covered it). The use of PRR express reefers as can cars is also=20 interesting.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C40826.31E335D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [PRR] Milk Cans
From very clear recollection, the = Erie  milk=20 cars were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in = Jersey City=20 east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = terminal=20 throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this was insight = of the=20 PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 = 11:16=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk = Cans

Listers,

This is from the Milk trains list.

Chris Chany

Subject: PRR milk service into New York City =

Stumbled onto this website while looking for things = unrelated=20 to milk:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/

Some PDF files with consist books are listed near = the top of=20 the
page. Just a brief perusal turned up = some very=20 interesting stuff
that, not being a PRR fan, = I had no=20 prior knowledge about. It appears
the PRR = did some=20 serious hauling of milk into the New York City area,
Long Island in particular, using both their own Class R50b = express=20
reefers (the ones Walthers is bringing out) = as well as=20 milk tank cars
(I assume GPEX). Here are = just two=20 examples I found after the
briefest of=20 perusals:

* In 1943, there were a whole bunch of tank cars = plus an=20 express
reefer as a can car moving from Long = Island=20 (mostly Jamaica, from the
LIRR?) on Train = #RJ-11 to=20 various destinations in PA (I think if I'm
guessing=20 correctly on the abbreviations). Go here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/MakeUpOfTrains_NYDivisio= nNo6_Nov14,19=20
43_300mono.pdf

and scroll down to the fourth page.

* In 1957, express reefers apparently used as can = cars from=20 Salamanca
(NY) to Penn Station (NY) via = Harrisburg=20 (PA). Go here:

http://prr.railfan.net/passenger/Consists_InterRegion_Pas= senger_April2=20
8_1957_150dpi_bw.pdf

and scroll down to Train #2. One would think any = milk out of=20
Salamanca would have been carried by the = Erie to=20 Jersey City but I
guess for a dairy in New = York City=20 or out on L.I. the PRR was the
smarter = move.=20

I'm sure there's a lot more info to be mined from = these pages.=20 But it
opens up an aspect of New York City = milk=20 operations that I've never
seen written = about in the=20 usual magazines (perhaps the PRR society
covered it).=20 The use of PRR express reefers as can cars is also
interesting.


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C40826.31E335D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:59:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay, now you dun it!!! Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... Train 13 out of New York R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. Train 72 from Pittsburgh R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other railroads. Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's what's there... J. H. Capwell Willard G. Metzler Freight Station Passing Siding Freight Station Public Track Neff Milling Comp Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:14:14 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Chautauqua branch ended at Brocton, NY & the PRR had trackage rights on the Nickel Plate up to Buffalo. --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:06:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Salamanca is just above the PA border toward the western region of NY. As you say, it was on the mainline of the Erie. A B&O line went N/S through there to Buffalo & Rochester - now the Buffalo & Pittsburgh. There was a PRR line near there running more or less N/S. I'd guess it was part of the Chatauqua branch. I suspect Jerry Shickler's website on the P&E, E&P, & Chatauqua Branches can shed light on it. I agree with whoever wondered why milk cars went to the New York City area via PRR instead of the Erie. PRR would have had to go a little ways south, then down the Buffalo Line to Harrisburg, Mainline to Philly, and back up to NYC. But remembering the Erie, the PRR may well have been quicker. If you drive across route 17/I-86, just after you cross route 220 (N/S), you'll see the B&P and the old PRR right-of-way crossing the B&P at an angle below the Interstate. As an aside, there is an Indian Reservation in Salamanca and every few years they go on the warpath (seriously!) when the governor tries to tax them in clear violation of the treaty making their reservations sovereign lands. They drop burning tires from overpasses on cars on the Interstate. Since Interstates are government property, that brings the Bureau of Indian Affairs into the act. They have much experience in these matters and usually get things calmed down and settled quickly, explaining to the governor once again that he can't do that. And now you know the rest of the story. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:03:44 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Shickler" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic > The Chautauqua branch ended at Brocton, NY & the PRR had trackage rights on > the Nickel Plate up to Buffalo. > --- > Oops. Just checked mapquest. Salamanca wasn't where I thought. Nevermind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:11:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry Britton said: But Jerry, you just answered a question the list has been struggling with for days! The rest of us should have thought to check the 1954 Makeup of Trains, of course. And naturally, right after I sent my previous message, Jerry Shickler's reply showed up. Nice to know he's watching, though. But that info. from the '54 Makeup of Trains does confirm that my memory is (sorta) working and there really were trains hauling milk in '54. Thanks! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:15:48 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <000b01c40875$e2146600$164d1818@stny.rr.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Perhaps the milk cars were destined for creameries in Long Island City and a trip via Sunnyside was faster than a car float across the Hudson from the Erie docks. Regards Andy Miller -----Original Message----- (in part) From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of William Bigler Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 4:06 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Salamanca . . . I agree with whoever wondered why milk cars went to the New York City area via PRR instead of the Erie. PRR would have had to go a little ways south, then down the Buffalo Line to Harrisburg, Mainline to Philly, and back up to NYC. But remembering the Erie, the PRR may well have been quicker. . . . Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:52:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cars In a message dated 3/12/2004 2:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: know the New England area produced a lot of milk and milk products. What I would like to see some photos of milk cars say traveling over Horseshoe. Again, I know it probably happened but I've never seen any proof of it. I model 1957 and would like to justify some milk cars for my trains According to Stegmaier's consist book, the Pennsylvania Limited carried 2 milk cars one Chicago to Philadelphia and one Chicago to New York, the Admiral carried on milk and perishables car Chicago to Philadelphia; the Spirit of St. Louis carried 2 milk cars off the Buffalo line Harrisburg to New York; train 13 carried milk tank cars from Philadelphia to Bedford and Huntington. I realize this is 1952 data but the point is milk was being hauled in passenger consists and except for the west bound tank cars from Philadelphia it was hauled in R50b's. So seeing milk cars on the Curve was possible if you have photos of the above trains. Rich Orr -------------------------------1079128324 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/12/2004 2:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, CENTGA@a= ol.com writes:
know the New England area produced a lot of mi= lk and milk products. What I would like to see some photos of milk cars say=20= traveling over Horseshoe. Again, I know it probably happened but I've never=20= seen any proof of it. I model 1957 and would like to justify some milk cars=20= for my trains
According to Stegmaier's consist book, the Pennsylvania Limited carried= 2 milk cars one Chicago to Philadelphia and one Chicago to New York, the Ad= miral carried on milk and perishables car Chicago to Philadelphia; the Spiri= t of St. Louis carried 2 milk cars off the Buffalo line Harrisburg to New Yo= rk; train 13 carried milk tank cars from Philadelphia to Bedford and Hunting= ton.
 
I realize this is 1952 data but the point is milk was being hauled in p= assenger consists and except for the west bound tank cars from Philadelphia=20= it was hauled in R50b's. 
 
So seeing milk cars on the Curve was possible if you have photos of the= above trains.
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1079128324-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:38:51 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Salamanca and PRR From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:04:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002d01c40877$30850190$07fe6ec0@MM119805PC> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Perhaps the milk cars were destined for creameries in Long Island City and a trip via Sunnyside was faster than a car float across the Hudson from the Erie docks. There were RB50s unloaded in Long Island City at the east end of the PRR part of Sunnyside Yard for Silvercup Bread. I remember this operation in the late 40's early 50's. It took place adjacent to the big Army APO facility on Northern Blvd. See it's good to have the geezers around. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Salamanca Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:06:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: There were RB50s unloaded in Long Island City at the east end of the PRR part of Sunnyside Yard for Silvercup Bread. That should have read R50b's. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of Bell Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 20:01:10 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Mar 2004 02:04:10.0419 (UTC) FILETIME=[797BB830:01C4089F] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I must add: Rule 32: The unnecessary use of either the whistle or the bell is prohibited. (This is right out of PRR Rule Book for 1925). This is for modelers. LOL How many times when we are "playing", do we use the bell or whistle just for the fun of it. This behavior is prohibited. LOL Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Specific gravity of milk and related topics Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 19:49:22 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Specific gravity of milk and related topics From: "Fred in Vt." Subject: [PRR] additional milk car resources Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:19:33 -0500 List, Bill B. has given the main listing for milk cars, so I will toss in = these: http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/index.htm ; Rutland RR http://sussexbranchmemorial.com/ ; DL&W http://vuhs.org/arrhs/ ; Addison RR http://www.apocalypse.org/~jbvb/rr/bmrr/b_and_m.html; B&M This list is from a group called : The Pfaudlers, they concentrate on = the NE milk trains, however, many of these cars were used into NY & Pa. Anyone have a line on cars of this type used on Lines West, in = particular from Columbus to Pitts.??? Thanks Fred in Vt. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C40890.DC4E2C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
List,
     Bill B. has = given the main=20 listing for milk cars, so I will toss in these:
http://users.rcn.com/jimdu= 4/index.htm=20 ; Rutland RR
http://sussexbranchmemorial.com= /=20 ;      DL&W
http://vuhs.org/arrhs/=20 ;            =             &= nbsp;=20 Addison RR
http://www.= apocalypse.org/~jbvb/rr/bmrr/b_and_m.html; =20 B&M
 
This list is from a group called : The = Pfaudlers,=20 they concentrate on the NE milk trains, however, many of these cars were = used=20 into NY & Pa.
 
Anyone have a line on cars of this type = used on=20 Lines West, in particular from Columbus to Pitts.???
         =20 Thanks       Fred in=20 Vt.
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C40890.DC4E2C40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Tanks on Flatcar Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:30:36 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben, I wonder if Dominic has that unique brass model (I forget the prototype) of two tank trailers on a flat. I guess in that case it might be considered an early example of TOFC, and I don't know if it predates the North Shore service. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: > Dominic Mazoch asked: > I have a model of 2 tanks on a flatcar. Is this an early example of TOFC? > > No, as TOFC = Trailer On Flat Car. > > The tanks were carried on the flats without their chassis. If anything, this is an early example of COFC. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:57:51 -0600 While at Chicagoland Hobbies today, I noticed a seemingly brand new book = by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol. 1. Browsing, it did answer a few = questions on colors, among other things, but still left a lot up in the = air. However, it is $15 soft cover and does shed some light on the = quite a few of the cars and users. Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C4089E.97981D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
While at Chicagoland Hobbies today, I = noticed a=20 seemingly brand new book by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol. 1. = Browsing, it=20 did answer a few questions on colors, among other things, but still left = a lot=20 up in the air.  However, it is $15 soft cover and does shed some = light on=20 the quite a few of the cars and users.
 
Bob Zoeller
------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C4089E.97981D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:38:27 -0500 Re: I noticed a seemingly brand new book by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol. 1. I believe he also has volumes 2 and 3 out. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C408CE.2CA39620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Re: I noticed a=20 seemingly brand new book by Liljestrand et al on Milk cars, Vol.=20 1.
 
I = believe he also=20 has volumes 2 and 3 out.
 
Al
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C408CE.2CA39620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:25:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet-Valley Forge. MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello list members.. What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've never been to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first one. Just curious. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Milk & Cow Technology Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:54:26 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I spent the first 10 years of my misguided youth (1940's) in Franklin PA on the Oil City Branch. I grew up on raw milk, straight from cow to you. I'm told if I drank raw milk now I'd come down with unmentionable if not uncurable diseases. And, of course, selling raw milk is now presumably illegal. Back then, I guess we developed the necessary antibodies. Guess we had the required resistance to all that coal smoke, too. Or maybe that explains some of our idiosynchrasies! Just reflecting in Big Flats. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Latowsky" Subject: [PRR] Trainphone Equipped N5c Assignment Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:55:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello List, Is there any evidence that any trainphone-equipped N5c's were assigned to the New York division in the late 1940's? The cabin car database on the Keystone Crossings site lists only a handful of N5's with trainphone in the division, but is based on 1957 data. Regards, Martin Latowsky ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:39:38 -0600 Subject: [PRR] L1's as Snappers From: John Sheets Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 14:39:38 -0600 Subject: [PRR] L1's as Snappers From: John Sheets Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:39:09 -0500 From: jlmcdaniel Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk & Mad Cow Technology--- way off topic Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Whether or not you got sick depended upon the cow...the most worrisome diseases are tuberculosis and brucelosis. Healthy cows give healthy milk at the source, so to speak. The dairy farmers could add much more to the milk --staph, strep, fecal coliforms, etc. --if conditions were not sanitary. Since milk is a wonderful culture medium for bacteria, it has to be kept cold to keep this stuff from growing...think un-refrigerated railcar in late summer!) Pasteurization at the dairy kills the bugs that would otherwise take over. the table is from one of 15,000 Google hits for unpasteurized milk and disease... Jim McDaniel, TB control doc for Delmarva. Disease Organism Symptoms and Complications 1.Campylobacteriosis Campylobacter sp. bloody diarrhea 2. Salmonellosis Salmonella sp. bloody diarrhea 3. Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome E. coli O157:H7 diarrhea, kidney failure, death 4. Yersiniosis Yersinsia enterocolitica diarrhea 5. Listeriosis Listeria monocytogenes meningitis, blood infections 6. Tuberculosis Mycobacterium tuberculosis tuberculosis; pneumonia 7. Brucellosis Brucella sp. blood infections, heart infections 8. Cryptosporidiosis Cryptosporidium parvum diarrhea 9. Staphylococcal enterotoxin poisoning Staphylococcus aureus vomiting 10. Q fever Coxiella burnetti high fever, severe headache, muscle aches (can infect the liver and/or heart) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:05:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] L1's as Snappers MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, L1's were used in helper assignments between Altoona and Cresson. I have numerous photos of them in this service in the late 1940s. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:35:00 EST Subject: [PRR] L1's as snappers There were also used out of Phila. pushing up the Bryn Mawr Hill until the late 1950's -------------------------------1079220899 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" There were also used out of Phila. pushing up the Bryn Mawr Hill until th= e late 1950's -------------------------------1079220899-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] None Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:32:58 -0500 Steve Sejda; haven't forgotten you on the pictures. Lee ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40929.9C1D6DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Steve Sejda; haven't forgotten you on the pictures.
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40929.9C1D6DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk & Mad Cow Technology--- way off topic Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:52:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jim, You sure make me glad I've switched to soy milk. And don't tell me about diseases of soybeans! Bill Bigler ----- Original Message ----- From: "jlmcdaniel" To: "William Bigler" Cc: "robert netzlof" ; Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk & Mad Cow Technology--- way off topic > Whether or not you got sick depended upon the cow...the most worrisome > diseases are tuberculosis and brucelosis. Healthy cows give healthy > milk at the source, so to speak. The dairy farmers could add much more > to the milk --staph, strep, fecal coliforms, etc. --if conditions were > not sanitary. Since milk is a wonderful culture medium for bacteria, it > has to be kept cold to keep this stuff from growing...think > un-refrigerated railcar in late summer!) Pasteurization at the dairy > kills the bugs that would otherwise take over. > > the table is from one of 15,000 Google hits for unpasteurized milk and > disease... > > Jim McDaniel, TB control doc for Delmarva. > Disease > > Organism > > Symptoms and Complications > > 1.Campylobacteriosis Campylobacter sp. bloody diarrhea > 2. Salmonellosis Salmonella sp. bloody diarrhea > 3. Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome E. coli O157:H7 diarrhea, kidney failure, > death > 4. Yersiniosis Yersinsia enterocolitica diarrhea > 5. Listeriosis Listeria monocytogenes meningitis, blood infections > 6. Tuberculosis Mycobacterium tuberculosis tuberculosis; pneumonia > 7. Brucellosis Brucella sp. blood infections, heart infections > 8. Cryptosporidiosis Cryptosporidium parvum diarrhea > 9. Staphylococcal enterotoxin poisoning Staphylococcus aureus vomiting > 10. Q fever Coxiella burnetti high fever, severe headache, muscle aches > (can infect the liver and/or heart) > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] L1's as Snappers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:56:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Not sure about the curve, but out of Emporium up Keating Hill (somewhere above 2.5%) in the steam days, passenger trains warranted L-1 helpers. They used 3 I-1's on freight. Why weren't video cameras invented half a century earlier? Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sheets" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 3:39 PM Subject: [PRR] L1's as Snappers > Just reading the new Winter Keystone and the accounts of the test runs of > the first T-1's 6110, 6111. Fascinating to say the least! > > A number of these seemed to be on Mail and Express trains which routinely > needed helpers over the curve. > > Was somewhat surprised to see so many L-1's as helpers. Was that the > routine steam snapper in those days? what about later before the diesels > came? > > John > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:00:05 -0500 The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline list the PRR cars as painted in the = Pullman Green Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War). What exactly does this = mean? I always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold = stripes and lettering. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline = list the PRR=20 cars as painted in the Pullman = Green Scheme=20 Pennsylvania (Post War).  What exactly does this mean?  I = always=20 thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold stripes and=20 lettering.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:00:05 -0500 The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline list the PRR cars as painted in the = Pullman Green Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War). What exactly does this = mean? I always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold = stripes and lettering. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline = list the PRR=20 cars as painted in the Pullman = Green Scheme=20 Pennsylvania (Post War).  What exactly does this mean?  I = always=20 thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold stripes and=20 lettering.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C40946.8AC2A7F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:26:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR In a message dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Starting at the wye bridge in Oil City Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com=20= writes:


Starting at the wye bridge in O= il City


Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an o= ld tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Ti= tusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wron= g. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:26:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR In a message dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Starting at the wye bridge in Oil City Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com=20= writes:


Starting at the wye bridge in O= il City


Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an o= ld tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Ti= tusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wron= g. Know anything about it? Todd Horton --part1_1cc.1be8ebb3.2d852af4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:47:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The tunnel was on the Lake Shore and Michigan Central (NYC) line on the North side of the Allegheny River, west of Oil Creek. The old Erie line was also locate on this side of the river. The Pennsy was located on the South side of the river at this location. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: CENTGA@aol.com To: wb3iqe@rocketmail.com ; PRR-TALK@dsop.com Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR In a message dated 3/12/04 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: Starting at the wye bridge in Oil City Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad on the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for highway traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it? Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:05:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:25:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet-Valley Forge. Dave writes: > Hello list members... >=20 > What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I'= ve=20 > never been to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first=20 > one. Just curious. >=20 > Dave Dave and all... Generally, there are seminars set up for the guest to attend, you get the=20 schedule and pattern you day after that. I seldom make all the seminars and=20= am=20 late for my own, from time to time ... just kidding. I appreciate it when t= he=20 host gives those in attendance =BD hour in between seminars as it seem like=20 anything else makes the crowd seem rushed.=20 Usually you bump into someone you would have never figure was going to be=20 there... There is always a model display room, open to all scales and all er= as.=20 Sometimes, but not always, like modelers gravitate together, I guess as they= =20 say there is strength in numbers... 3^) Then usually at lunch, about 11 Pe= nnsy=20 guys pile into a Volkswagen to grab a bite... 3^) After lunch you stroll the= =20 grounds and check out all the recent works form the local area models and a=20 good meet has more than just HO Scale freight cars and locomotive but also=20 includes both online and off line structures... Usually more fun than you w= ould=20 have expected for the money. And don't forget to BRING MODELS. All good meet= s=20 ask you to check your ego at the door and once in they strip search you just= in=20 case to make sure you didn't try to sneak your ego in ... not really but the= =20 idea here is not matter what level your modeling is currently when you walk=20 away you will be one more peg higher... Then when you show up on the list=20 afterwards we will know exactly what you saw and liked as you will be howlin= g to make=20 it the next PRR-PRO list project... JUST KIDDING ... Go for the fun of it an= d=20 share with the rest of us what you found...=20 Hey, Ben you going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR items?=20 Greg Martin=20 --part1_7e.495b5017.2d85d34f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Dave writes:


Hello list members...

            &nbs= p;   What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've=20= never been to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first on= e. Just curious.

Dave


Dave and all...

Generally, there are seminars set up for the guest to attend, you get the sc= hedule and pattern you day after that. I seldom make all the seminars and am= late for my own, from time to time ... just kidding.  I appreciate it=20= when the host gives those in attendance =BD hour in between seminars as it s= eem like anything else makes the crowd seem rushed.

Usually you bump into someone you would have never figure was going to be th= ere... There is always a model display room, open to all scales and all eras= . Sometimes, but not always, like modelers gravitate together, I guess as th= ey say there is strength in numbers...  3^)  Then usually at lunch= , about 11 Pennsy guys pile into a Volkswagen to grab a bite... 3^) After lu= nch you stroll the grounds and check out all the recent works form the local= area models and a good meet has more than just HO Scale freight cars and lo= comotive but also includes both online and off line structures...  Usua= lly more fun than you would have expected for the money. And don't forget to= BRING MODELS. All good meets ask you to check your ego at the door and once= in they strip search you just in case to make sure you didn't try to sneak=20= your ego in ... not really but the idea here is not matter what level your m= odeling is currently when you walk away you will be one more peg higher... T= hen when you show up on the list afterwards we will know exactly what you sa= w and liked as you will be howling to make it the next PRR-PRO list project.= .. JUST KIDDING ... Go for the fun of it and share with the rest of us what=20= you found...

Hey, Ben you going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR items?

Greg Martin

--part1_7e.495b5017.2d85d34f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RYagodich@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:42:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines East Towers To List, Some time back their was some discussion on PRR Towers. Don't remember if these things were covered. I have three questions: What are the interior wall colors inside the towers? What color were the exterior doors and windows painted on the brick towers? (The doors are obviously wood. The windows, on the tower that I'm modeling, look like the thin, lattice, metal framed windows.) During the 1940 thru 1955 time period, what color was the wooden bay painted? Was it one color or two tone? Thanks in advance for any help provided. Bob -------------------------------1079278962 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
To List,
Some time back their was some discussion on PRR Towers. Don't reme= mber if these things were covered. I have three questions:
What are the interior wall colors inside the towers? What color were th= e exterior doors and windows painted on the brick towers? (The doors are obv= iously wood. The windows, on the tower that I'm modeling, look like the thin= , lattice, metal framed windows.)
During the 1940 thru 1955 time period, what color was the wooden bay pa= inted?  Was it one color or two tone? Thanks in advance for any help pr= ovided.
 
Bob
-------------------------------1079278962-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Cars Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:16:27 -0500 From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Cars Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:16:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:08:59 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: mtevans@jps.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West towers X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:
John Frantz" said,

I've been on a tower kick late= ly. For the gentelmen that
model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough s= tandard design
for a brick interlocking tower?

TAOT

Best= Regards,
John
 
Gentlemen:
 
As Rick Tipton noted, th= ere was a very common PRR brick tower design found in numerous lo= cations on Lines West.

A drawing of this type of PRR tower can be fo= und in the article entitled "Piqua Crossing" in the March 1979 issue of Rai= lroad Model Craftsman. The tower in the drawing was located at Piqua, OH.
Similar towers were located at various locations throughout the Midwe= st. Examples include [you may have to cut and paste url's into your browser= ]:

Alum Creek, OH

http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/prr-t= owers/AlumCreek-Oh= 1.htm

Dunkirk, OH

http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers= /Dunkirk1.htm

Race Tower, Logansport, IN

http://groups.yahoo.com/= group/PennsyWest/files/Photographs/Interlocking%20Towers/Race.JPG

Smithboro, IL
<= FONT face=3Dgeneva,arial,sans-serif size=3D2>http://internetcashpla= net.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers/Smithboro1.htm

Vandalia, IL

http= ://groups.yahoo.com/group/InterlockingTowers/files/IllinoisTowers/ic-van-twr-v.jpg
There are likely others that I haven't found yet. Anyone know of more?
=
There are additonal photos of some of the towers mentioned above, inclu= ding interior shots, at this site:

http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-T= owers/default.htm

These towers seem to be pretty much identical, with some minor= detail differences. Piqua tower, for instance, had a sheet metal covering = at the top of the front tower wall. Also, door, window, and chimmney locati= ons vary a little. I think Race tower is a good compromise for a model, as = it appears to have typical features.

I'd love to see a high-quality = kit of one of these brick towers.

Yours truly,

Mark T. Evans<= BR>Anaheim, CA
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:28:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lines West towers In a message dated 3/14/2004 1:12:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes: > There are additonal photos of some of the towers mentioned above, including > interior shots, at this site: > > http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers/default.htm > > Loved this posting! It included a photo of Wandle Tower, where the PFtW&C crossed the Wheeling & Lake Erie (WandLE). My dad used to take me train-watching there when I was about 2 to 4. I distinctly remember trying to understand when he told me there was no more W&LE because it had been leased to the NKP for what seemed to a little guy like an impossibly long time (99 or 999 years, I forget.) Now there is once again a W&LE -- one of the few signs of hope in today's world. Perhaps it is an omen that some day again there will be a PRR. Thanks for the memory. Lee Rainey --part1_38.437032fa.2d8652c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/14/2004 1:12:1= 8 PM Eastern Standard Time, mtevans@jps.net writes:


There are additonal photos of s= ome of the towers mentioned above, including interior shots, at this site:
http://internetcashplanet.com/railroadtowers/PRR-Towers/default.htm<= /FONT>=



Loved this posting! It included a photo of Wandle Tower, where the PFtW&= C crossed the Wheeling & Lake Erie (WandLE). My dad used to take me trai= n-watching there when I was about 2 to 4. I distinctly remember trying to un= derstand when he told me there was no more W&LE because it had been leas= ed to the NKP for what seemed to a little guy like an impossibly long time (= 99 or 999 years, I forget.) Now there is once again a W&LE -- one of the= few signs of hope in today's world. Perhaps it is an omen that some day aga= in there will be a PRR.

Thanks for the memory.

Lee Rainey --part1_38.437032fa.2d8652c4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <8AE6877C-7618-11D8-A239-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Speaking of MS-60's... (again) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:34:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: What? Did you think I was going to bring up milk cars again? ;-) We last visited the "What is a MS60 debate?" about two months ago, when Stegmaier's book on 1952 passenger consists came out. I had called Harry and he indicated that, yes, an X29 could qualify as an MS60 in a passenger consist. But, again, we had no hard PRR reference. He thought it had to do with cubic footage of storage (since other cars had equivalent square footage but did not qualify). I have found a semi-Holy Grail: An official PRR document on making up passenger consists that reads "For MS60, Express, or Paper use R50 or X29 unless otherwise specified." Finally, something spelling out the use for an X29 in REA service!!! In the 1954 "Makeup of Trains" book that I have, there are only a couple of "X29" references; there are a few "MS60, R50, or X29" references; but there are dozens of spots that are to be filled by "MS60". Finally I can correctly put X29's into those spots! BTW, I will have this document posted on Keystone Crossings in about a week. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron & Marilyn Mele" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:57:18 -0600 >Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came across the >remains = of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad >on the road = leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for >highway traffic = but I could be wrong. Know anything about it?=20 The Central had a small yard located just beyond the north portal of = the tunnel and an interchange with the PRR's Chautauqua Branch. This = trackage was probably abandoned early in the Penn Central era though I = don't have an exact date.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C409FE.8E4D72C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
 


>Bob, during a recent trip through Oil City I came = across the=20 >remains of an old tunnel. It's across the river from the railroad = >on=20 the road leading to Titusville. It looked to be too narrow for = >highway=20 traffic but I could be wrong. Know anything about it?
 
The Central had a small yard located just beyond the north portal = of the=20 tunnel and an interchange with the PRR's Chautauqua Branch. This = trackage=20 was probably abandoned early in the Penn Central era though I don't = have an=20 exact date.
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C409FE.8E4D72C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:12:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 02:12:52.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[053C3C20:01C40A33] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To the list at large, Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most prevalent in a single area of assignment. Another thought is what would be the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the many flavors the class was assigned over their life. Another question, was the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I locomotives? Thanks in Advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:12:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 02:12:52.0066 (UTC) FILETIME=[053C3C20:01C40A33] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To the list at large, Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most prevalent in a single area of assignment. Another thought is what would be the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the many flavors the class was assigned over their life. Another question, was the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I locomotives? Thanks in Advance, Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milk Traffic Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:23:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <009f01c4086e$970db820$960100c0@ges> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.7.165.29] at Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:23:40 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, The PRR between Brocton and Buffalo had it's own track on the south side of the Plate. The Plate and PRR operated this section as double track. It was not trackage rights. Don Murphy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Shickler Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 3:14 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Traffic The Chautauqua branch ended at Brocton, NY & the PRR had trackage rights on the Nickel Plate up to Buffalo. --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Milk Traffic > Okay, now you dun it!!! > > Out of the 1954 "Makeup of Trains"... > > Train 13 out of New York > R50 Milk cans for Salamanca, to 527 at Harrisburg > > Train 30 "Spirit of St. Louis" arriving New York > R50 milk cans from Salamanca, from 574 at Harrisburg. > > Train 72 from Pittsburgh > R50 Milk from Hudson cut off, to DL&W at Kearney Jct. > > 527 was a Philadelphia to Williamsport (and points north) train. > > 574 was the "Southern Express" from Williamsport (and points north). > > So where the heck is Salamanca, and what was there? > > MapQuest shows Salamanca west of Olean, NY. So, off the the CT1000... > > But first, what division? In 1941, it was the Buffalo Division of the > Central Region. The division map shows the town of Salamanca was not > directly on the PRR, but was on the Erie and one or more other > railroads. > > Looks like you gotta leave the main, then the Allegheny Branch at Oil > City, putting you on the Salamanca Branch/Western New York & > Pennsylvania Ry. Head out about 90 miles and you hit Salamanca. Here's > what's there... > > J. H. Capwell > Willard G. Metzler > Freight Station > Passing Siding > Freight Station > Public Track > Neff Milling Comp > > Okay, I just spent 15 minutes on this. And for what? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:33:11 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Harry and List: Class 90F82 was always the most common tender on I1s and I1sa locomotives. All 598 were built with 90F82 tenders. In later years larger tenders were built and assigned to I1 locomotives. In the following are quantities of freight tenders with 82" decks for a few representative years: 1930: 90F82 - 495 130F82 - 1 130F82a - 100 180F82 - 1 210F82 - 1 1-1-1948 (104 I1s + 494 I1sa): 90F82 - 567 130F82 - 1 180F82 - 1 210F82 - 1 210F82a - 28 1-1-1952 (488 I1sa): 90F82 - 440 130F82 - 1 180F82 - 1 180F82a - 5 210F82 - 3 210F82a - 36 210F82b - 3 250F82 - 1 250F82a - 3 1-1-1956 (194 I1sa): 90F82 - 148 130F82 - 1 130F82a - 4 180F82a - 3 210F82 - 4 210F82a - 35 210F82b - 3 250F82 - 1 250F82a - 4 Note that there were excess tenders at some times. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Fitch" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Class I1 tender population | | To the list at large, | | Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 | locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? | I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most | prevalent in a single area of assignment. Another thought is what would be | the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the | lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the | many flavors the class was assigned over their life. Another question, was | the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I | locomotives? | | Thanks in Advance, | | Harry Fitch ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:31:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = > were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey = > City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = > terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this = > was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=20 > I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?" I was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper roofing on it. Was I at JH? I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffered massive redevelopment. I assume the only thing recognizable from the whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfront and is again lit. PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN works, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio River Bridge. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very cl= ear recollection, the Erie  milk cars =3D
were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey =3D City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the =3D
terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this =3D was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=3D20


I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?"  I was= once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper ro= ofing on it.  Was I at JH?

I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffer= ed massive redevelopment.  I assume the only thing recognizable from th= e whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfro= nt and is again lit.

PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN wo= rks, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio Rive= r Bridge.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:31:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = > were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey = > City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = > terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this = > was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=20 > I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?" I was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper roofing on it. Was I at JH? I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffered massive redevelopment. I assume the only thing recognizable from the whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfront and is again lit. PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN works, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio River Bridge. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very cl= ear recollection, the Erie  milk cars =3D
were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in Jersey =3D City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the =3D
terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All this =3D was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=3D20


I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?"  I was= once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like copper ro= ofing on it.  Was I at JH?

I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has suffer= ed massive redevelopment.  I assume the only thing recognizable from th= e whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the waterfro= nt and is again lit.

PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville IN wo= rks, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long Ohio Rive= r Bridge.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_194.25fcac79.2d8699c2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Another tender question Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 06:32:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 11:32:50.0183 (UTC) FILETIME=[3F460970:01C40A81] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another tender question? (no pun intended) Thanks for all who input information on the class I1 tender question. Another thought on this subject of tenders. Has anyone a listing of tender deck heights for all classes including both stoker and non stoker equipped dimensions? Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Another tender question Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:28:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 883A1CE2-E5604036-984679BA-6B313CF1 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: http://www.wsbcos.com/tenders.htm Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Harry Fitch Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 6:33 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Another tender question Another tender question? (no pun intended) Thanks for all who input information on the class I1 tender question. Another thought on this subject of tenders. Has anyone a listing of tender deck heights for all classes including both stoker and non stoker equipped dimensions? Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 05:54:46 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Another tender question > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:14:06 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/13/04 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic (was PRR-Talk Digest - 03/13/04) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:39:16 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic (was PRR-Talk Digest - 03/13/04) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:39:16 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:05:16 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's and SPAM From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:10:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Mar 2004 16:07:19.0591 (UTC) FILETIME=[97CE4370:01C40AA7] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was in Strasburg on Saturday to check out 89 in it's new CN look (looks great!). I was really disturbed to see the PRR steamers accross the street though. 460, the L1, and the K4 are now all sitting outside, without jacketing. The M1 is also without jacketing. I know funds are tight in PA right now, but they really look awful. I like the M1's new position (although in a perfect world it would be inside as well, but that tender is just monstorous!), but I sure hope they don't intend on keeping the K4 out there permently. You can already see new rust on the engine. I have always been concerned with some of their choices of what goes inside there (far to many pieces of rolling stock, and other lack luster pieces that should be moved to make room for more of the priceless engines, i.e. 4800. I don't care about yet another shay, or heilser, or fireless cooker when the very first GG1 is rusting away outside, much less the K4, L1, etc. as a RR preservation advocate I hate to see any locomotive or car lost to the weather, but sometimes choices have to be made, and I don't agree with some of the one's they have made. ). 460 has been outside now since last summer. I am very concerned about this, does anyone know what is going on? Why are 3 of the most valuable pieces in the collection sitting outside in the weather again after we tax payers paid for the building expasion to protect them? I can understand a few months while they were removing the lagging for EPA reasons, but this is getting to be a long time now, and after this past winter the locos are starting to show it. If anyone from the RR Museum of PA is reading this please get them back inside! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:45:55 -0500 From: Ed Workman Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 From: "Ed Mentz" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:45:55 -0500 From: Ed Workman Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] That tunnel at Oil City, a reference Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:07:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 10,14-22 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have to agree with you, Tom. When a Museum swears to never operate their collection again as a matter of preservation, isn't it somewhat of a digression to leave those same priceless pieces out in the weather? Asbestos abatement is a serious issue, and I can understand the Museum wanting the work done outdoors. The 4800 should have been indoors from the start, imho. Other items from the collection should be moved under cover or replaced entirely (the MP54 comes to mind). Still, each of these pieces remains in the custody of persons who have their best interest at heart. The most fragile of the rolling stock must be kept dry. The locos needing the greatest attention on sheet metal should be indoors next. On the other hand, if RRMPa would like to shuffle each engine across the street for a complete operations rebuild, well, that's okay with me too! I hate to have to resolve myself to the 460 never having hot grates again. Dick Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but there are many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Milk cans, cars, trains & traffic Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:33:51 +0000 From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:09:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Regarding the tunnel at Oil City - It most likely was the tunnel on the NYC line from Stoneboro, PA to Oil City. The tunnel was abandoned in about 1964 due to unsafe conditions. There was not enough traffic to or from Oil City to justify the cost to rebuild it. I was in the NYC industrial development office in Pittsburgh at that time and I remember assuring the few on line customers between Franklin and Oil City that service would be continued. As I recall the line was abandoned near the town of Reno which was the location of a Wolfs Head Oil Co. refinery - the major shipper on the line. Up until some time in the "depression" the PRO had truckage rights over this line from Stoneboro to Oil City and ran trains from New Castle to Oil City. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:56:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City So Oil City had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. During my trip there I didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure it was larger in it's day. My question is didn't pipelines carry much of the oil from an early time? What and how much business would the railroads have had there in say the 50's? Todd Horton --part1_1ef.1b93cb6e.2d87c6e0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" So Oil=20= City had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. During my trip t= here I didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure it was larger in it'= s day. My question is didn't pipelines carry much of the oil from an early t= ime? What and how much business would the railroads have had there in say th= e 50's? Todd Horton --part1_1ef.1b93cb6e.2d87c6e0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:31:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-SLUIDL: 9A520A86-14334202-BACE2567-F47BAF68 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Can't speak to all the rusting hulks, but my limited understanding of the situation around the 4800 is - It is not owned by the RRMPA so it does not get the premium space inside. I think if you check back through the PRR-Talk archives that this has been a matter of discussion several times. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:12:44 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] GG1 4800 at RRMPA Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Wayne and the List: In a nutshell: This was true at one time; the 4800 was rescued by, owned by, and preserved by Lancaster Chapter NRHS. For a number of years, the chapter was justly proud of its accomplishment and wished to hold on to ownership. In the interim, a private individual bought the 4935 and paid for its restoration, and then donated it to the museum. RMPa then faced a difficult decision, and it chose to place the GG1 it owned under protective roof. At some point years later, the Chapter changed its decision and donated the 4800 to the museum, which now owns both. Dan Cupper ... at the western frontier of still-energized PRR catenary, in Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------- Wayne S. Betty wrote: >Can't speak to all the rusting hulks, but my limited understanding of the >situation around the 4800 is - >It is not owned by the RRMPA so it does not get the premium space inside. >I think if you check back through the PRR-Talk archives that this has been a >matter of discussion several times. > >Cos >Wayne S. Betty >Cos Communications, Inc. >Small business IT services. > >Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road >NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 >NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 >http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm >at the west end of the PRR electrified zone > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:14:54 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Tom and Gentelmen, This evening I asked a member of the restoration team about the issues raised earlier today. As it stands right now it is unknown when the jackets will be placed back on the boilers of the 460, L1 and 3750. Also, every inch of availble railspace is taken inside the museum. The team at the RRMPA has done its best with the space provided to portray its name the Railroad Museum of PENNSYLVANIA. NOT the Railroad Museum of the Pennsylvania Railroad. For some to see another shay or heisler is desired, but all of the pieces inside and outside the museum tell a story of the past and present of the rail industry in PA. I can tell you from personal experience that the curator has his best interest in preserving history. I've seen examples at otehr mueums where a car at one point was pristine, but since a window gasket wasn't "prototypical" the car was left outside in the weather until the point now, two curators later and the car is literally falling aaprt with mold and mildew. If a person feels something should be done, contribute. Wheteher through volunteer hours or charitable giving. As my friend said rather bluntly. "If you want it inside, show me the money for an expansion." Personally IMHO he's right. Granted, you can argue that residents such as myself contribute through taxes, but the amount a single person contributes is pennies compared to what is actually needed to restore, renovate, and maintain its collection. Join the FRM, let your opinion be heard. The worst that can happen is someone says, "No, it can't happen right now." My 10 cents, John "Tom von Trott" wrote: I was in Strasburg on Saturday to check out 89 in it's new CN look (looks great!). I was really disturbed to see the PRR steamers accross the street though. 460, the L1, and the K4 are now all sitting outside, without jacketing. The M1 is also without jacketing. I know funds are tight in PA right now, but they really look awful. I like the M1's new position (although in a perfect world it would be inside as well, but that tender is just monstorous!), but I sure hope they don't intend on keeping the K4 out there permently. You can already see new rust on the engine. I have always been concerned with some of their choices of what goes inside there (far to many pieces of rolling stock, and other lack luster pieces that should be moved to make room for more of the priceless engines, i.e. 4800. I don't care about yet another shay, or heilser, or fireless cooker when the very first GG1 is rusting away outside, much less the K4, L1, etc. as a RR preservation advocate I hate to see any locomotive or car lost to the weather, but sometimes choices have to be made, and I don't agree with some of the one's they have made. ). 460 has been outside now since last summer. I am very concerned about this, does anyone know what is going on? Why are 3 of the most valuable pieces in the collection sitting outside in the weather again after we tax payers paid for the building expasion to protect them? I can understand a few months while they were removing the lagging for EPA reasons, but this is getting to be a long time now, and after this past winter the locos are starting to show it. If anyone from the RR Museum of PA is reading this please get them back inside! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Circus Train at Warsaw, Indiana!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:23:17 -0500 PRR-Listers: CIRCUS TRAIN!! Circus Extra, headed by RS-27 2414, headed east though = Warsaw at 4:31 pm on June 22, 1965. The average travel speed between = Plymouth and Warsaw was just over 29 mph. Ted ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C40AEC.E11C3BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
PRR-Listers:
 

CIRCUS = TRAIN!!=20 Circus Extra, headed by RS-27 2414, headed east though=20 Warsaw at 4:31 pm on June=20 22, 1965. The average travel speed between=20 Plymouth and=20 Warsaw was just over 29=20 mph.

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C40AEC.E11C3BA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Another B&O train through Warsaw Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:53:47 -0500 "B+O Extra," an eastbound, went through Warsaw at 7:02am on June 20, = 1965. It was lead by B&O 4544, an F-7A. This is the third B&O train to = use the PRR Ft. Wayne Line in 1965. Ted=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C40B2B.D0775FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

=93B+O = Extra,=94 an=20 eastbound, went through  Warsaw=20 at 7:02am on June 20, 1965. It was lead by B&O = 4544, an=20 F-7A. This is the third B&O train to use the PRR Ft. Wayne Line in=20 1965.

 

Ted 

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C40B2B.D0775FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:40:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reading Harrisburg Yard Map From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <7A133901-774F-11D8-8019-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've posted to Keystone Crossings (Maps section) a Reading Company map of their Harrisburg yard. I've included it on my Pennsy site as it rather clearly shows much of the PRR plant and how the two lines integrated. Dated 1934 and corrected to 1972. Scale is 1" = 400'. Here is a direct link... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/images/rdg_hbg_map.jpg Provided by Dan Cupper. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Atlas Engine/Decoder Question Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:35:35 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:08:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reefer Page From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've reorganized the reefer page. Comments welcome... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Before I described the companies, then the paint schemes, then the available N scale models (HO coming). I have changed it to now show under the header for each company its paint schemes and available models. I've also added more info about the founding of FGE and the participating railroads. I just learned -- maybe you already knew -- that FGE founded National Car Company as a subsidiary to handle meat reefers (Kahns, Oscar Meyer, Roth, Pepper, etc.). I didn't know they were related. Much more will be coming on the PFE. I just got in the "Pacific Fruit Express" book (second edition) from Signature Press. This thing is a text book!!! It's about an inch and a half thick. It has histories of the company, of each and every car type, of all of the facilities. It goes into thorough detail of the movement of each and every type of produce. Talks about various cooling methods. Has a section which "follows a car" for several eras. There is a 1953 example of a car coming east and being interchanged with the PRR to Philadelphia. For anyone interested in reefer ops, this book is a gem. Suggested retail is $75. Expensive, but I'm telling ya... Just wish there was a book like this for Our Companies (FGE / WFE / BREX). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:44:47 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering From: Bruce Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 11:32 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Found this web site that the guy tells how he weathered this car. To > my eyes it looks pretty good and a new technique for me any way. > > http://www.weatheringdoctor.com/PennsyExpressReefer.html I debated replying to this under the "if you can say something nice..." rule and because I think that the modeler has done a really intricate and nice job of weathering the car...I just question if it the correct type of weathering for this type of car. One of the things I noticed in studying the weathering patterns of R50Bs and X29s in express service is that they get all-over grungy rather than showing a vertical streaky paint job. Boxcars are more likely to show that vertical pattern...or perhaps an R50B that's been sitting in storage for a while I would be interested in seeing a prototype R50B (in service) with that type of weathering pattern. Since the express cars are moving, and usually at some speed, the dirt/moisture get distributed horizontally, not vertically. The technique shown by Mr. Simpkins, which is very similar to Jim Six's "Q-tip" weathering is a great approach for weathering house cars... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: [PRR] Bill Volkmer Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:12:25 -0500 I was on this site for the museum of PA, does this reference the same = Mr. Volkmer that shares his knowledge and experience on the list ? =20 =20 While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous "Lindbergh Engine" found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general = foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to the = venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received periodic = lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted.=20 http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm =20 Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40B60.B5923380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Message
I was = on this site=20 for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that = shares his=20 knowledge and experience on the list ?
 
 

While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, = the=20 once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former PRR = management trainee=20 named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the = facility as=20 a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant = liking to=20 the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received = periodic=20 lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted.=20

http://www.rrmuseu= mpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm
 
Kenny
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C40B60.B5923380-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:20:04 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering From: "Bruce Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:42:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Guys, I recall seeing R50b's from LIRR trains from and to Penn Station many times, often on the adjacent track, and they were almost uniformly filthy - not as filthy as a New York City subway car of that era, but close............. The grime was the color of a mixture of rail brown and weathered black to use model railroad colors. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zak" To: "PRR-Talk" Cc: "Bruce Smith" ; Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering > While I'd never claim to be any kind of an expert on weathering, a year or > so ago I found a site that I believe dealt with the Chicago yards. In it, > there was a page on reefers, and there was a pix of a PRR reefer. > > Although it was a B&W picture, it clearly showed that the next time the car > would see a hose and water would probably be the first! Lettering on the > side of the car was barely visible. > > In the text of that "article", the writer stated that the outside of these > cars were seldom cleaned. > > As I said, I'm no expert. The only reason this stuck in my mind is that > this PRR car had wound up in California -- San Francisco, I believe. > > I hope this may have been of some help. > > Zak > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Smith" > To: > Cc: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b weathering > > > > > > On Friday, March 12, 2004, at 11:32 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > > > Found this web site that the guy tells how he weathered this car. To > > > my eyes it looks pretty good and a new technique for me any way. > > > > > > http://www.weatheringdoctor.com/PennsyExpressReefer.html > > > > I debated replying to this under the "if you can say something nice..." > > rule and because I think that the modeler has done a really intricate > > and nice job of weathering the car...I just question if it the correct > > type of weathering for this type of car. One of the things I noticed > > in studying the weathering patterns of R50Bs and X29s in express > > service is that they get all-over grungy rather than showing a vertical > > streaky paint job. Boxcars are more likely to show that vertical > > pattern...or perhaps an R50B that's been sitting in storage for a while > > I would be interested in seeing a prototype R50B (in service) > > with that type of weathering pattern. Since the express cars are > > moving, and usually at some speed, the dirt/moisture get distributed > > horizontally, not vertically. The technique shown by Mr. Simpkins, > > which is very similar to Jim Six's "Q-tip" weathering is a great > > approach for weathering house cars... > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Bill Volkmer Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:23:02 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Yes. Note his very detailed responses. -----Original Message----- From: Ken Nesbitt [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:12 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bill Volkmer I was on this site for the museum of PA, does this reference the same = Mr. Volkmer that shares his knowledge and experience on the list ? =20 =20 While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous = "Lindbergh Engine" found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named = William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general = foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to = the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received = periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads = permitted.=20 http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm =20 Kenny ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40BA5.3E8CA385 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message
Yes.  Note his very detailed=20 responses.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nesbitt=20 [mailto:ken.nesbitt@fbcs-inc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, = 2004 1:12=20 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Bill=20 Volkmer

I = was on this site=20 for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that = shares his=20 knowledge and experience on the list ?
 
 

While awaiting an uncertain future in = Northumberland, the=20 once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former = PRR management trainee=20 named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the = facility=20 as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an = instant=20 liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine = received=20 periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads = permitted.=20

http://www.rrmuseu= mpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm
 
Kenny
------_=_NextPart_001_01C40BA5.3E8CA385-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "prr643" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:32:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2004 04:32:54.0236 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA2521C0:01C40BD8] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Wow, I did not think I'd strike quite the nerve I did, I was just wondering if anyone knew what the deal was LOL, but I should have know that those 4 locos, plus all the others, would be close to many members railroad hearts. Just a few thoughts on John Frantz's response... > As it stands right now it is unknown when the jackets will > be placed back on the boilers of the 460, L1 and 3750. ouch, kinda scary, but as a particapant in various RR restoration projects I know the feeling. It is as was said by another, money, money, money. > Also, every inch of availble railspace is taken inside the > museum. by what? Three of the bigger steam pieces that were inside are now out (the L1, the K4, E6). A few years ago after the new expansion was finished I was very pleased to see the long neglected PRR locos inside (not to say the Freinds did not make a valient effort to keep them in as best shape as possible, they sure did, but the weather was winning the battle long term, as it always will), and looking great in new paint jobs. What did they do with the space? Is it diesel land inside? If so I won't need to pay to go in, what I want to see can be seen from the street. > > The team at the RRMPA has done its best with the space > provided to portray its name the Railroad Museum of > PENNSYLVANIA. NOT the Railroad Museum of the Pennsylvania > Railroad. The two are one in the same. It is true of course there was a lot of other RR history in this state, but the largest influence on all of it was the PRR. There was Baldwin in Philly, of course it's largest orders, came from the PRR. And of course Reading, B&O, shortlines, NKP, NYC, and on and on. But without the PRR, none of it really mattered. It was the backbone. For some to see another shay or heisler is > desired, but all of the pieces inside and outside the > museum tell a story of the past and present of the rail > industry in PA. I can tell you from personal experience > that the curator has his best interest in preserving > history. I've seen examples at otehr mueums where a car at > one point was pristine, but since a window gasket wasn't > "prototypical" the car was left outside in the weather > until the point now, two curators later and the car is > literally falling aaprt with mold and mildew. > Unfortunantly many museums of all types have this problem. To much for the space they have. They just got another loco, frankly, as much as I do like the idea of preserving an E60, they don't have the space, the man-power, or the money. Stop aquiring new stuff until you can keep the stuff you have in good shape! I very well may take your advice John and join the member rolls of the friends, been meaning to for years, just never quite got around to it. Now may be a good time. But the responses I received basically make me feel worse, not better, about the fate of the PRR's most historic pieces. I have to ask why they are using precious space inside for more fake buildings. We are not talking about minor pieces here! Sending the K4 or E6 out for asbestos removal and not keeping room inside for them is like if the Louver sent the Mona Lisa to be cleaned and decided to not put it back when finished! This to me shows a major shift in priorities of the organization. Only time will tell I guess, I hope I'm wrong. Tom von Trott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David Honner" Subject: [PRR] Panhandle Help Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:19:34 +1100 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Due to a burglary, a vast amount of data (unbacked up, of course!) went missing when my laptop was stolen from me. I am fortunate that some on this list have helped me in the past, and I am hopeful that you will be able to send to me again. I would very much like: (1) Track charts of the Panhandle from Carnegie to Trinway, then down to Zanesville. Some kind stranger sent them to me a few months ago so if it is not too much trouble I would appreciate it being sent again. (2) Photographs of the Stuebenville bridge carrying the Panhandle main across the Ohio. I had several of these sent to me some time ago but I am sorry I cannot remember your name - please send again! If anybody else can help with these two requests I would appreciate it. A terrible thing to happen but it could be worse - they could have trashed or stolen my engines for a start. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bill Volkmer Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:17:58 -0500 See Trains Mag January 2004 issue for the "rest of the story". -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ken Nesbitt Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:12 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bill Volkmer I was on this site for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that shares his knowledge and experience on the list ? While awaiting an uncertain future in Northumberland, the once-famous "Lindbergh Engine" found a friend, a former PRR management trainee named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the facility as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an instant liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine received periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads permitted. http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm Kenny ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C40C00.C3463CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
See=20 Trains Mag January 2004 issue for the "rest of the = story".
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ken=20 Nesbitt
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 2:12 PM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Bill = Volkmer

I = was on this site=20 for the museum of PA, does this reference the same Mr. Volkmer that = shares his=20 knowledge and experience on the list ?
 
 

While awaiting an uncertain future in = Northumberland, the=20 once-famous “Lindbergh Engine” found a friend, a former = PRR management trainee=20 named William Volkmer, who had been assigned to the = facility=20 as a general foreman. A devoted steam enthusiast, Volkmer took an = instant=20 liking to the venerable old speedster, and saw to it that the engine = received=20 periodic lubrication and paint touchup whenever shop workloads = permitted.=20

http://www.rrmuseu= mpa.org/about/roster/e6.htm
 
Kenny
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C40C00.C3463CB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:24:15 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:24:15 +0000 From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] PRR Tuckahoe Branch Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:46:07 -0500 I have come across an old map dated 1904 of the Northumberland yard area (the yard as yet was unbuilt at that time). The map shows a branch line operating a short distance to the northeast labelled the Tuckahoe Branch. It is my understanding that there was a mineral water bottling operation up in the hills near that area. Question 1: Was the line ever constructed? Question 2: Do any photos exist of the branch? Question 3: If yes to one or two, when was the line abandoned? It is hoped that Mr. Cupper might have some insight on this as I have a friend doing serious research on the railroads of the region. Thanks in advance for any help you all may want to share. Bill Volkmer ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C40C04.AC641860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
I have = come across=20 an old map dated 1904 of the Northumberland yard area (the yard as yet = was=20 unbuilt at that time).  The map shows a branch line operating a = short=20 distance to the northeast labelled the Tuckahoe Branch.  It is my=20 understanding that there was a mineral water bottling operation up in = the hills=20 near that area.
 
 
Question 1: =20 Was the line ever constructed?
 
Question 2:  Do=20 any photos exist of the branch?
 
Question 3:  If=20 yes to one or two, when was the line abandoned?
 
It is = hoped that Mr.=20 Cupper might have some insight on this as I have a friend doing serious = research=20 on the railroads of the region.
 
Thanks = in advance=20 for any help you all may want to share.
 
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C40C04.AC641860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:34:59 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) Big Day for the Pennsylvanian!!! =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Sunday March 14th was a big day for AMTRAK's westbound=20 Pennsylvanian. Returning college students from spring break swelled the cons= ist of #45 to 9=20 cars with over 500 passengers ON BOARD through most of the NYP PGH journey.=20 AMTRAK actually added a coach at Harrisburg westbound,( the train had 8 cars= =20 NYP to HAR) due to standee conditions. Unfortunately the train was well over= 2=20 hours late arriving Pittsburgh. But this is just another example of how good= =20 trains at convienient times can be very successful. --part1_11f.2c1d63c0.2d8a0263_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Big Day for the Pennsylvanian!!! =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Sunday March 14th was a big day for AMTRAK's westbound Pe= nnsylvanian. Returning college students from spring break swelled the consis= t of #45 to 9 cars with over 500 passengers ON BOARD through most of the NYP= PGH journey. AMTRAK actually added a coach at Harrisburg westbound,( the tr= ain had 8 cars NYP to HAR) due to standee conditions. Unfortunately the trai= n was well over 2 hours late arriving Pittsburgh. But this is just another e= xample of how good trains at convienient times can be very successful.
 --part1_11f.2c1d63c0.2d8a0263_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:06:55 -0500 From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:06:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:53:00 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Crestline-Bucyrus From: Frederick Ripley From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion Thanks Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:26:37 -0500 From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion Thanks Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:26:37 -0500 From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:37:49 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mark, In real time to HO scale 1/8" or .0125 equals 1 HO foot. This would be fine except depdning if you print out a car builders dimension plan the plan is not to scale. This can be solved by buyin a scale rule, and equating a ratio to scale the drawing to be HO scale or full size if you so choose. I do this regularly at work as well as drawing up car sides in HO. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Mark Taylor" wrote: List; I am building 2 BCW M70b's and I am wanting to double check the instruction measurements against car builder plan dimensions ( I want to get the right dimension for truck centers as well as the overall length over the couplers). Can anyone give my the conversion for HO scale against an inch /foot ruler. I need the decimal equivilent of an HO scale foot / inch, as an example say 0.250 is equal to 1.75 ft. in HO scale. I hope I am explaning this right. Mark _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar ? FREE! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 18:57:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. If you have a metric ruler available, the scale is 3.5mm= 1 foot. Bill --part1_119.304d0284.2d8a3fe9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" If you have a metric ruler availabl= e, the scale is 3.5mm=3D 1 foot.  Bill --part1_119.304d0284.2d8a3fe9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:16:27 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John, In most parts of the world HO scale is 1:87.1, while 1/8 inch equals one foot is 1:96 (multiply 8 by 12 and you get 96), so anything constructed to 1/8"=1' is 10.2 percent undersized for HO scale! Hope you're not drawing up HO car and building plans using 1/8" scale. I model in N, so .075" equals one foot. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Frantz" To: Cc: "Mark Taylor" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. > Mark, > > In real time to HO scale 1/8" or .0125 equals 1 HO foot. > This would be fine except depdning if you print out a car > builders dimension plan the plan is not to scale. This can > be solved by buyin a scale rule, and equating a ratio to > scale the drawing to be HO scale or full size if you so > choose. I do this regularly at work as well as drawing up > car sides in HO. > > -John > > Designer, Modeler, Consultant > Mount Vernon Shops > Baltimore, MD > > Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. > > > "Mark Taylor" wrote: > List; I am building 2 BCW M70b's and I am wanting to > double check the instruction measurements against car > builder plan dimensions ( I want to get the right > dimension for truck centers as well as the overall length > over the couplers). Can anyone give my the conversion for > HO scale against an inch /foot ruler. I need the decimal > equivilent of an HO scale foot / inch, as an example say > 0.250 is equal to 1.75 ft. in HO scale. I hope I am > explaning this right. Mark > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar ? > FREE! > http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] K4, M1, L1, etc at RRMPA Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:39:47 +0000 From: "bill pokorny" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [eastcoastrailfans] GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:34:12 -0500 Thought this might be of interest to the=20 group. BillP AKA Locobil ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DOCTOR REYNOLDS=20 To: = eastcoastrailfans@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:38 PM Subject: [eastcoastrailfans] GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard From: pcc7407@w...=20 Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:58 am Subject: Re: GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard In respone to a mention of a GG1 in "Mt. Winans" yard on BaltimoreRailfans@y...: The GG1 is in Mt. Clare "A" Yard (Mt. Winans is the yard along the main tracks between Hollins Ferry Rd. and Gable Avenue), and is=20 a "crime in progress". This is number 4876 and is the engine that=20 crashed into and thru Union Station in Washington in 1953. It is now=20 derelict, rusting badly, and is used as a drug and vagrant hangout. >From what I understood many years ago, the original plan for this engine was for the B&O Museum to cosmetically restore it to its' 1953 appearance whereupon Amtrak was going to place it on number 16 track (the one it was on when it crashed thru) in Washington's Union=20 Station as a tribute to the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 hauled=20 passenger service. Severe Amtrak budget cutbacks brought about by Congress and changes=20 in plans for rebuilding Union Station scuttled this project and the=20 engine began its long downhill decline to the present state it is in. It has been sitting out in the open, unprotected in any way, for at least the last 20 years. For a while it was at least placed under the I-95 bridge, but CSX objected to the location of it, and all the=20 old equipment with it, and pushed it all to the far west end of A=20 Yard. So far as I know, everything on that track is owned by the B&O=20 Museum. It is a crime that this is happening, and would be an even=20 greater crime if it is allowed to either continue or if the engine=20 is finally scrapped. The B&O Museum once had its own GG1, #4890, but in one of the Museum's mood swings it was decided to dispose of anything that was=20 not C&O-B&O-WM related. Pity, because the GG1 one certainly a huge=20 part of Baltimore's railroad history, even if it did run on the=20 competition. The B&O Museum disposed of and scrapped several PRR MP54 MU cars as well, throwing away still more of Baltimore's railroad history. What a shame that people are so provincial that they feel just because it wasn't B&O that it wasn't worth saving. It was, and is Baltimore history, and should be saved at Baltimore's B&O Museum. (This posting is also being posted on the DelMarVaTraction and CSXPhillySub yahoogroups since there may be interested members there=20 who do not subscribe to BaltimoreRailfans.)=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eastcoastrailfans/ =20 b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: = eastcoastrailfans-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40C67.96D14B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thought this might be of interest to the
group. BillP AKA Locobil
----- Original = Message -----=20
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 5:38 PM
Subject: [eastcoastrailfans] GG1 In Mt. Clare = Yard

From:  pcc7407@w...
Date:  Wed Mar 10, = 2004 =20 9:58 am
Subject:  Re: GG1 In Mt. Clare Yard

In respone to = a=20 mention of a GG1 in "Mt. Winans" yard on
BaltimoreRailfans@y...:

Th= e GG1 is=20 in Mt. Clare "A" Yard (Mt. Winans is the yard along the
main tracks = between=20 Hollins Ferry Rd. and Gable Avenue), and is
a "crime in progress". = This is=20 number 4876 and is the engine that
crashed into and thru Union = Station in=20 Washington in 1953. It is now
derelict, rusting badly, and is used = as a drug=20 and vagrant hangout.
From what I understood many years ago, the = original plan=20 for this
engine was for the B&O Museum to cosmetically restore it = to its'=20 1953
appearance whereupon Amtrak was going to place it on number 16=20 track
(the one it was on when it crashed thru) in Washington's Union=20
Station as a tribute to the Pennsylvania Railroad's GG1 hauled =
passenger=20 service.

Severe Amtrak budget cutbacks brought about by Congress = and=20 changes
in plans for rebuilding Union Station scuttled this project = and the=20
engine began its long downhill decline to the present state it is = in.
It=20 has been sitting out in the open, unprotected in any way, for
at = least the=20 last 20 years. For a while it was at least placed under
the I-95 = bridge, but=20 CSX objected to the location of it, and all the
old equipment with = it, and=20 pushed it all to the far west end of A
Yard. So far as I know, = everything on=20 that track is owned by the B&O
Museum. It is a crime that this = is=20 happening, and would be an even
greater crime if it is allowed to = either=20 continue or if the engine
is finally scrapped.

The B&O = Museum=20 once had its own GG1, #4890, but in one of the
Museum's mood swings = it was=20 decided to dispose of anything that was
not C&O-B&O-WM = related.=20 Pity, because the GG1 one certainly a huge
part of Baltimore's = railroad=20 history, even if it did run on the
competition.

The B&O = Museum=20 disposed of and scrapped several PRR MP54 MU cars as
well, throwing = away=20 still more of Baltimore's railroad history.
What a shame that people = are so=20 provincial that they feel just
because it wasn't B&O that it = wasn't worth=20 saving. It was, and is
Baltimore history, and should be saved at = Baltimore's=20 B&O Museum.

(This posting is also being posted on the=20 DelMarVaTraction and
CSXPhillySub yahoogroups since there may be = interested=20 members there
who
do not subscribe to BaltimoreRailfans.)=20



Yahoo! Groups Links
  • To visit your group on the web, go to:
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  • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C40C67.96D14B40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet - Valley Forge Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:35:27 -0600 Dave asked: "What exactly goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've never been = to one before. The Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first one." A few other points to add to Greg's comments: Come with an open mind. If you go in with an attitude of "rivet = counters are ruining our hobby" and "I can never do anything like that," = you're completely missing the point and would be better off saving your = money by not coming. These meets are all about sharing information to = help you improve your modeling - don't get scared off by the amount of = information and the quality of the models.=20 A common complaint about these meets is "they didn't have anything on = <>" Clinic programs are directly dependent = on the willingness of volunteers to give them, so you might not find = exactly what you're looking for; however, if you're interested in a = specific era or facet of the hobby, BRING MODELS for the display room. = They'll help you to find others with like interests, which brings me = to... Talk to other people in the display room, even if they don't have the = same interests as you do. Generally, there aren't any contests, so it's = not like you're trying to hide something from the guy next to you to get = an edge in contest judging. As Greg said, "CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR." = While it's true that some meets are held to satisfy the ego of a = prominent modeler with a three-letter last name (which, by the way, = isn't "Hom"), this fortunately isn't the case for most Prototype = Modelers Meets. Remember, it's all about exchanging information. =20 Greg Martin asked: "Hey, Ben you going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR items?" Both Al Buchan and I will be there, and we'll put those cameras to work. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C40C46.3C78A4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave asked:
"What exactly=20 goes on at these Prototype Modelers meets? I've never been to one = before. The=20 Valley Forge (Phila.) meet will be my first one."
 
A few other points to add to = Greg's=20 comments:
Come with an open = mind.  If you=20 go in with an attitude of "rivet counters are ruining our hobby" and "I = can=20 never do anything like that," you're completely missing the point and = would be=20 better off saving your money by not coming.  These meets are all = about=20 sharing information to help you improve your modeling - don't = get=20 scared off by the amount of information and the quality of the models.=20
 
A common complaint about these = meets is=20 "they didn't have anything on <<fill in topic of=20 interest>>"  Clinic programs are directly dependent = on the=20 willingness of volunteers to give them, so you might not find exactly = what=20 you're looking for; however, if you're interested in a specific era = or=20 facet of the hobby, BRING MODELS for the display room.  = They'll help=20 you to find others with like interests, which brings me = to...
 
Talk to other people in the = display room,=20 even if they don't have the same interests as you=20 do.  Generally, there aren't any contests, so it's not like = you're=20 trying to hide something from the guy next to you to get an edge in = contest=20 judging.  As Greg said, "CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR."  = While it's=20 true that some meets are held to satisfy the ego of a prominent modeler = with a=20 three-letter last name (which, by the way, isn't "Hom"), this = fortunately isn't=20 the case for most Prototype Modelers Meets.   Remember, it's = all about=20 exchanging information.  
 
 
Greg Martin asked:
"Hey, Ben you=20 going? Can you get us some digital shots of PRR = items?"
 
Both Al Buchan=20 and I will be there, and we'll put those cameras to = work.
 
 
Ben=20 Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C40C46.3C78A4C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:50:23 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gregg, When it comes to doing a car side, I usually plot a side out at full size architectural "D" size sheet 36"x24" then measure the car using a scale rule. Say the dimension is marked 10'-0" but it measures 9'-0". Considering the fact that the dimension measures 9'-0" at 100% I use the ratio 9'-0"/100%=10'-0"/?% Then I scale it using the plot settings and replot it and check it to make sure its right. Usually it is. Ahh, the beauty of having plotters. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: John, Hope you're not drawing up HO car and building plans using 1/8" scale. I model in N, so .075" equals one foot. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:49:23 -0500 On this date, the first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at Warsaw was made. = Engine No. 6501 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at = 3:28 pm. Highball!! Ted ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

On = this date, the=20 first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at=20 Warsaw was made. Engine No. = 6501=20 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at 3:28 pm.

 

Highball!!

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:49:23 -0500 On this date, the first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at Warsaw was made. = Engine No. 6501 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at = 3:28 pm. Highball!! Ted ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

On = this date, the=20 first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at=20 Warsaw was made. Engine No. = 6501=20 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at 3:28 pm.

 

Highball!!

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C40C82.DB016500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:19:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI Update, Deadlines & Atlas Deadline From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Public Service Announcement... This info came via FAX yesterday and is not yet posted to BLI's web site. It will be soon. BLI has revised their shipping schedule. (Surprise!) Note that "guaranteed reservation date" indicates the deadline for orders that they guarantee will be filled. Ordering after that date doesn't mean your order won't be filled. It just means it is no longer guaranteed. As of the "guaranteed reservation date" they set production quantites on a per road number basis, based on the quantity of dealer reservations plus a buffer. That said... E7's -- Now slated for late April and into May. M1 rerun -- Moved to May. H2a Hoppers -- Moved to May. J1 -- Still June, but guaranteed reservations close on March 24th!!! K7a Stock Cars -- July. Guaranteed reservation date "was" March 5th!!! NW2 and SW7's -- Bumped to July. ------------- On a similar note, the Atlas HO scale F-M H 24-66 TrainMaster with optional sound, with an ETA of September, has a guaranteed reservation date of March 24th. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] NF-6 Train Symbol Question Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:11:23 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:35:59 -0600 Subject: [PRR] NF-6 From: Frederick Ripley Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 09:35:59 -0600 Subject: [PRR] NF-6 From: Frederick Ripley From: "Les Zody" Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:31:43 -0800 Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm l= ooking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue that = was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Caboos= e Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be g= reat. Ty for the help Les z ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,
&nb= sp; I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm= looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue tha= t was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Cabo= ose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be= great.
         =     Ty for the help
    &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ; Les z
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Les Zody" Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:31:43 -0800 Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm l= ooking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue that = was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Caboos= e Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be g= reat. Ty for the help Les z ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi All,
&nb= sp; I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm= looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue tha= t was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from Cabo= ose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help would be= great.
         =     Ty for the help
    &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ; Les z
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C40CC3.71363330-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:18:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:24:28 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NF-6 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/18/2004 10:35:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, fjr@mchsi.com writes: > > > Ted writes, about NF-6: > > > 1. What was the eastern terminus of this train? > > 2. How was it different from FW-8, a conventional live stock train? > > 3. What did Non-Feed mean? > > From previous posts (Bill Volkmer I think), I had the eastern terminus of > this train as Waverly, NJ. I am assuming that the "Feed-Water" monicker of > FW-8 meant that this train stopped to feed the livestock at some point (not > sure where). "Non-Feed" meant the idea was to get the train over the road > in less than 36 hours, which was the federal time limit for which livestock > could be carried without being fed/watered. > > Interesting it didn't run after April- it stays in ETT's for the following > years, and by 1967 in the Western Region ETT is allowed to operate at 60 > mph, like other hotshots. I wonder if it's operation was somewhat seasonal? > > Fred > > NF-6 picked up cars in Fort Wayne and ran through to Harrisburg where it dropped cars. Additional cars were dropped at Lancaster, Philadelphia, Waverly, Meadows and terminated at Harsimus Cove. Total time alloted was 29 hours with a maximum of 85 cars in the train. See http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/nf6_1960.html FW-8 unloaded livestock at Herr's Island in Pittsburgh for rest, feed and water. It added cars at Ft. Wayne. Dropped cars at Crestline, Massillon, Canton, Conway (non-livestock), Pittsburgh Stock yards, Altoona, Enola, Philadelphia, Waverly and terminated at Meadows. In addition to livestock this train carried perishables and TOFC. See http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/fw8_1960.html Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Show--La Crosse WI--This weekend Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:43:26 -0600 Just a reminder to folks in this part of the world. Layouts, vendors and model railroaders, how much better can it get?? 10-6 Saturday and 10-4 Sunday. Downtown at the LaCrosse Center (2nd and Pearl). Pete Reinhold ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40CFF.C2752F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Just a reminder to folks in = this part of the world. Layouts, vendors and model railroaders, how much better can it get??  10-6 = Saturday and 10-4 Sunday. Downtown at the = LaCrosse Center<= /st1:PlaceType> (2nd and = Pearl).

 

Pete Reinhold

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40CFF.C2752F30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:07:03 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" I've seen demonstrations of this new glue. The one very real advantage = over conventional ACC is its shear strength. ACC has excellent tensile = strength, but only so-so shear strength. The glue is also impact = resistant. I threw two metal screws which were glued together on a = concrete floor, and I could not break the bond. -----Original Message----- From: STEPHEN HOXIE [mailto:stevehprr@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:55 AM To: prrtalk Subject: Re: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy. See http://www.mrhobby.com/ for more. Pricey but great stuff! =20 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Les Zody =20 To: prrtalk =20 Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread I'm = looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue = that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from = Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help = would be great. Ty for the help Les z ------_=_NextPart_001_01C40D35.581ED72B Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I've seen = demonstrations=20 of this new glue.  The one very real advantage over conventional = ACC is its=20 shear strength.  ACC has excellent tensile strength, but only so-so = shear=20 strength.  The glue is also impact resistant.  I threw two = metal=20 screws which were glued together on a concrete floor, and I could not = break the=20 bond.
-----Original Message-----
From: STEPHEN HOXIE = [mailto:stevehprr@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, = 2004=20 10:55 AM
To: prrtalk
Subject: Re: [PRR] cement = (resin=20 glue)

Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy.  = See
http://www.mrhobby.com/  for = more.  Pricey but great = stuff!
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Les = Zody=20
To: prrtalk
Sent: Thursday, March 18, = 2004 10:31=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] cement (resin=20 glue)

Hi All,
  I have searched the archives and am not = coming up=20 with the thread I'm looking for. Some time back there was a = discussion of a=20 type of glue that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I = think=20 someone from Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the = product. Any=20 help would be great.
=
           &n= bsp;=20 Ty for the help
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     =20 Les z
------_=_NextPart_001_01C40D35.581ED72B-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 22:49:25 -0500 Yes there were lots of pipelines, not sure that they piped the crude = directly to the refinery. I can't say much for sure about the 50's, but = some of the business in the area during the 60's to 80's I can think of = quickly, would be.... Continental Can, J&L Steel, Pennzoil of course = plus other companies between Oil City and Rouseville, just north of Oil = City, one that pressure treated wood products, there was also Oil City = Glass, not sure if they used the PRR. , Manion barrel, scrap dealers, = Oilwell supply , a USS company (I think) in Siverly.. on the Allegheny = just upstream of Oil City, near the wye bridge, north side of the river, = line there used to extend to Warren. Also Worthington near Petroleum = Street Bridge on the banks of the river, also North side. =20 There are other products that came out of the Pennzip facility on rail, = namely wax, lots of National wax tank cars loaded there. =20 Just a note the company I work for has a large plant in Franklin, we = have photos somewhere of our equipment loaded on NYC flatcars, which ran = down Buffalo street. =20 I can remember the other end of the tunnel before the intersection of = Holiday Run Road and Rt 8 was changed. There was a bridge over the NYC = at the tunnel entrance, then the rail line crossed Rt 8 at an angle, my = Dad used to visit a feed store near that intersection. =20 I think the NYC had a turntable in Oil City in the area of the bridge = over Oil Creek, known as White Bridge, I think there may still be rail = near that area, behind the auto parts store. At least I recall it being = there fairly recently. A gentlemen that owned a hobby shop in Oil = City for years was a friend of mine, he tells me there were three = turntables in Oil City at one time, the PRR on the south side near the = Wye bridge, now where the power in town is parked, the Erie somewhere on = the North side near the steel plant, the NYC table I mentioned. =20 best regards, David Campbell Norton, VA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CENTGA@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:56 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City So Oil City had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. = During my trip there I didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure = it was larger in it's day. My question is didn't pipelines carry much of = the oil from an early time? What and how much business would the = railroads have had there in say the 50's? Todd Horton ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C40D3B.430D4070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes there were lots of = pipelines, not=20 sure that they piped the crude directly to the refinery.  I = can't say=20 much for sure about the 50's, but some of the business in the = area=20 during the 60's to 80's I can think of quickly, would be.... =20 Continental Can, J&L Steel, Pennzoil of course plus other companies = between=20 Oil City and Rouseville, just north of Oil City, one that pressure = treated wood=20 products, there was also Oil City Glass, not sure if = they used the=20 PRR. , Manion barrel, scrap dealers, Oilwell supply , a USS company = (I=20 think) in Siverly..  on the Allegheny just upstream of Oil = City, near=20 the wye bridge, north side of the river, line there used to extend to = Warren.=20  Also Worthington near Petroleum Street Bridge on the banks of the = river,=20 also North side. 
 
There are other products that came = out of the=20 Pennzip facility on rail, namely wax, lots of National wax tank cars = loaded=20 there.   
 
Just a note the company I = work for has a large plant in Franklin, we have photos somewhere of = our=20 equipment loaded on NYC flatcars, which ran down Buffalo street.=20  
 
I can remember the = other end of=20 the tunnel before the intersection of Holiday Run Road and Rt 8 was=20 changed.  There was a bridge over the NYC at the tunnel = entrance,=20 then the rail line crossed Rt 8 at an angle, my Dad used to = visit a=20 feed store near that intersection.  
 
I think the NYC had a = turntable in=20 Oil City in the area of the bridge over Oil Creek, known as White = Bridge, I=20 think there  may still be rail near that area, behind the auto = parts=20 store.  At least I recall it being there fairly=20 recently.    A gentlemen that owned a hobby shop in Oil = City for=20 years was a friend of mine,  he tells me there were three = turntables in Oil=20 City at one time, the PRR on the south side near the Wye bridge, = now where=20 the power in town is parked, the Erie somewhere on the North=20 side near the steel plant, the NYC table I mentioned.  =
 
best = regards,
 
David = Campbell
Norton, = VA
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CENTGA@aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 = 9:56=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: That tunnel = at Oil=20 City

So Oil City=20 had service from the Erie, NYC, and of course the PRR. During my trip = there I=20 didn't see much in the way of shippers. I'm sure it was larger in it's = day. My=20 question is didn't pipelines carry much of the oil from an early time? = What=20 and how much business would the railroads have had there in say the = 50's? Todd=20 Horton ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C40D3B.430D4070-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:12:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: That tunnel at Oil City In a message dated 3/18/04 11:02:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, southern@bellatlantic.net writes: > There are other products that came out of the Pennzip facility on rail, > namely wax, lots of National wax tank cars loaded there. > I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one of these cars. Know of any on line? Todd --part1_1d2.1c74abb1.2d8bcd25_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/18/04 11:02:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, southern@bellatlantic= .net writes:


There are other products that c= ame out of the Pennzip facility on rail, namely wax, lots of National wax ta= nk cars loaded there.  


I don't think I've ever seen a photo of one of these cars. Know of any on li= ne? Todd --part1_1d2.1c74abb1.2d8bcd25_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] A somber entry at Warsaw, August 17, 1965 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 00:07:15 -0500 The following was written at the bottom of the CT 355-A tower sheet for = August 17, 1965: "TT-2 - Hit woman standing on track 1-block west of Union St. at 1:38 = am. Engineer said appeared as though she committed suicide. Coroner = released train 2:30 am. Police wanted Red East and West account parts of = her body scattered on No. 1 & 2. Clear East & West 2:48 am by Chief of = Police. Woman's name (with held) age 46." While we consider trains as a hobby, it is events like this that shake = this hobby into reality. Not only did railroading have a dangerous = working environment but it had more than its share of personal = tragedies. Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40D46.23127320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The following was written at the bottom of the CT 355-A tower sheet = for=20 August 17, 1965:
 

"TT-2  - Hit woman standing on track = 1-block=20 west of Union St. at = 1:38 am. Engineer said = appeared as=20 though she committed suicide. Coroner released train 2:30 am. Police = wanted Red=20 East and West account parts of her body scattered on No. 1 & 2. = Clear East=20 & West 2:48 am by Chief of Police. Woman=92s name (with held) age = 46."

 

 

While we consider = trains as a=20 hobby, it is events like this that shake this hobby into reality. = Not=20 only did railroading have a dangerous working = environment=20 but it had more than its share of personal tragedies.

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40D46.23127320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:11:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Pullman Book From: Jamie Bothwell Message-Id: <826378C4-799E-11D8-B970-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [141.158.51.210] at Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:09:53 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I spotted a copy of "The Pullman Library Vol. 4" on eBay this morning. It was at $65 when I was there. I know this title has come up on this list before. I offer this as a public service announcement. I have no connection to the seller. Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:09:53 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:09:53 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:52:16 +0000 From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Industries near Oil City Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:54:26 -0500 In the late ''40's early '50's there were still lots of refineries = shipping petroleum products by rail in the area. There were lots of = other industries in the area also. I lived in Franklin until 1950. I = remember Pennzoil and Wolfs Head in Oil City. Was Quaker State also = located there? Franklin, just up the Allegheny River, was served by = Erie and NYC branches. The PRR was across the river, not sure it served = many (any?) industries in Franklin. =20 On the NYC in town was a large freight station and Brown's Boiler Works. = The tracks ran down the middle of Buffalo St. from the small yard below = 11th St. to around First St. to Joy Manufacturing which made coal mining = equipment - large automatic miners, etc. They are still in business, = but not sure whether they still have a factory in Franklin. Near the = freight station was a brick passenger station, converted to a restaurant = last time I was in Franklin (around 15 years ago). =20 Across town the Erie branch served the Chicago Pneumatic Tool Company, a = large factory many blocks long which manufactured air compressors and = other large pneumatic equipment. Alas, railroads are all gone now. As a lad growing up in the '40's, = however, I spend many a summer day "down by the station & tracks." Must = be where I went a-stray! Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C40DA0.8C160BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
In the late ''40's early '50's there were still = lots of=20 refineries shipping petroleum products by rail in the area.  There = were=20 lots of other industries in the area also.  I lived in Franklin = until=20 1950.  I remember Pennzoil and Wolfs Head in Oil City.  Was = Quaker=20 State also located there?  Franklin, just up the Allegheny River, = was=20 served by Erie and NYC branches.  The PRR was across the river, not = sure it=20 served many (any?) industries in Franklin. 
 
On the NYC in town was a large freight station = and Brown's=20 Boiler Works.  The tracks ran down the middle of Buffalo St. from = the small=20 yard below 11th St. to around First St. to Joy Manufacturing which made = coal=20 mining equipment - large automatic miners, etc.  They are still in=20 business, but not sure whether they still have a factory in = Franklin.  Near=20 the freight station was a brick passenger station, converted to a = restaurant=20 last time I was in Franklin (around 15 years ago). 
 
Across town the Erie branch served the Chicago = Pneumatic=20 Tool Company, a large factory many blocks long which manufactured air=20 compressors and other large pneumatic equipment.
 
Alas, railroads are all gone now.  As a lad = growing=20 up in the '40's, however, I spend many a summer day "down by the station = &=20 tracks."  Must be where I went a-stray!
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
 
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C40DA0.8C160BC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:55:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Kennedy Airport to Penn Station From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:55:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Kennedy Airport to Penn Station Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:04:08 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:07:14 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:07:14 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:02:35 -0500 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I have about 15 Thomas tank cars. All have solid frames. Very rare to see a Thomas tank car with any bad metal. Garry Spear robert netzlof wrote: > --- b.hom@att.net wrote: > >>Gregg Mahlkov wrote: >>Thomas used to sell a six compartment car in HO years ago. I still >>have it but the frame was Zamac and broke. >> >>More recently, AHM offered a six-dome wine tank car in HO. >>Unfortunately, the model is about 2x the capacity of the prototype; >>however, it's readily availble at swap meets if you can live with >>the size problem. You'll probably need to strip and repaint as AHM >>offered many more bogus schemes (including DuPont and Penn Salt!) >>than wine company schemes. > > > As I recall, one wine scheme, silver with red "ROMA WINE" outlined in > black. > > Better yet, the shell can be easily mounted on the underframe and > bottom sheet of an Athearn 40' tank car, giving much better running > gear and draft gear. > > >>The Thomas model is much closer to scale size, though it's long out >>of production and a bit tough to find. > > > They do show up now and again on eBay. I've always been a bit fearful > of them as they date from the era when "zinc disease" was rather > common. They generally don't sell cheap either. > > The AHM cars also appear there from time to time, at a variey of > prices. It seems to me the wine scheme tends to be a bit less costly > than the completely bogus oil, salt, latex, and sulphur schemes. > > Nice to hear that such odd beasts did operate now and again in the East. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Wine cars - modern shipments Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 03:09:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Mar 2004 08:09:36.0227 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF2CC330:01C40E52] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Wine cars - modern shipments Modern era shipment of wine still happened in the Baltimore area as of a few years ago and may still be happening at the Seagram's facility in Halethorpe. (Formerly Calvert Whiskey) The tank cars are nondescript for a very good reason. No real interesting markings at all. Apparently the threat of unauthorized imbibing is still present with us. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:03:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Layouts I will be in Reading and Harrisburg, Pa. this week. Are there any layouts in these areas that are open to visitors during their work or ops sessions? Many thanks, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1079784189 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I will be in Reading and Harrisburg, Pa. this week.  Are there any= layouts in these areas that are open to visitors during their work or ops s= essions?
 
Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1079784189-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:14:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Wine Cars That isn't imbibing on the job, it is insuring the product does not become tainted in transport. ;^) When I worked on the Reading, it wasn't too uncommon to find cars coming out of the Hershey's plant at Hershey, Pa. had been broken into with a box or two of goodies missing. On one occasion the crew was caught red handed but there was no action taken as the union could not be contacted within the required four hours for a complaint to be filed. It was later learned that the union was tipped off to the misconduct then became scarce so they could not be contacted. The railroad had to pay for the lost candy. Ain't life grand!? Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1079784896 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
  That isn't imbibing on the job, it is insuring the product does=20= not become tainted in transport.  ;^) 
 
   When I worked on the Reading, it wasn't too uncommon to fi= nd cars coming out of the Hershey's plant at Hershey, Pa. had been broken in= to with a box or two of goodies missing.  On one occasion the crew was=20= caught red handed but there was no action taken as the union could not be co= ntacted within the required four hours for a complaint to be filed= .  It was later learned that the union was tipped off to the misconduct= then became scarce so they could not be contacted.  The railroad had t= o pay for the lost candy.  Ain't life grand!?

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1079784896-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:09:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Bell on B1 electric MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello list members, Is the bell on a B1 electric a "hand pulled" or a mechanical bell? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:38:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] MTH Milk Train From: Dominic Mazoch X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:38:17 GMT Subject: [PRR] MTH Milk Train From: Dominic Mazoch From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:09:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Bell on B1 electric Hello list members, Is the bell on a B1 electric a "hand pulled" or a mechanical bell? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:49:15 -0600 Subject: [PRR] RE: Wilen Brothers in N. Philadelphia From: John Sheets From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Late August Round up at Warsaw..... Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:46:33 +0000 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: [PRR] test Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:21:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.199.98.250] at Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:21:32 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: test ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's in HO Scale Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:33:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Yes, it's early, but Lee English notified me this morning that the HO scale N8's will start shipping to dealers today. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Form 76, 1884 Edition, Posted From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <01471CC0-7CD6-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to James Foley, I just posted to the Documents section of Keystone Crossings the 1884 edition of the Form 76, which is the equivalent of the CT1000. The original that was scanned was in remarkably good condition. You can find the file at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ The file is 7.5 MB in size, so if you early modelers all jump at once your download will crawl! Try again later if you cannot get it now in a reasonable time. I've got a lot of exciting PDF's coming over the next two weeks. A bunch of track charts and a passenger consist book from 1964. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 09:25:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Form 76, 1884 Edition, Posted From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <01471CC0-7CD6-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks to James Foley, I just posted to the Documents section of Keystone Crossings the 1884 edition of the Form 76, which is the equivalent of the CT1000. The original that was scanned was in remarkably good condition. You can find the file at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ The file is 7.5 MB in size, so if you early modelers all jump at once your download will crawl! Try again later if you cannot get it now in a reasonable time. I've got a lot of exciting PDF's coming over the next two weeks. A bunch of track charts and a passenger consist book from 1964. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Charlie" Subject: [PRR] E-7 Antenna Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:14:22 -0500 To the list, perhaps another rerun of months past, however I would like to know if the PRR E-7's always had train phone antenna on all of the "A" Units? Thanks in advance. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C410BF.9D1F5210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

To the list, perhaps = another rerun of months past, however I would like to know if the PRR E-7’s always = had train phone antenna on all of the “A” Units?  Thanks in = advance.

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C410BF.9D1F5210-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <19674D9A-7CEA-11D8-AC6A-000393C92AF2@arclyte.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: prr-talk@dsop.com From: Alex Charyna Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:49:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Listers, I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] ATT: Steve Sejda Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:52:03 -0500 Pictures will be mailed on 3-25-04 Lee ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C410CD.429AD540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Pictures will be mailed on 3-25-04
 
 
Lee
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C410CD.429AD540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:22:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Alex, Society had different attitudes then. First, young unmarried men and women were not found in mixed company unless they had been introduced by a family member, so a woman or girl traveling alone would have felt very embarrassed in a gneral waiting room with a bunch of strange men. In addition, many men used chewing tobacco and there were spitoons in the men;'s waiting room. Women found this as ugly a habit back then as they do now. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms > Listers, > I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in > some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). > As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not > been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female > rooms. > Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? > -alex > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Track Chart Additions From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <0BBFD900-7CF8-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Eight more track charts have been added to the Maps section of Keystone Crossings. There are from the Northern Division, Pittsburgh Division, Conemaugh Division, and Pittsburgh Region. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ Thanks to Randy Williamson for the loan of the originals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:29:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Track Chart Additions From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <0BBFD900-7CF8-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Eight more track charts have been added to the Maps section of Keystone Crossings. There are from the Northern Division, Pittsburgh Division, Conemaugh Division, and Pittsburgh Region. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/ Thanks to Randy Williamson for the loan of the originals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:48:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pot Yard ETT From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another neat one from James Foley... in the Docs section of Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html "Eastern Region, Southern Division, Maryland Division, Washington Yard, Timetable #7", June 24, 1945. For the government of employes of the Baltimore and Ohio RR, the Chesapeake and Ohio RR, the Pennsylvania RR, the Richmond Fredericksburg and Potomac RR, and the Southern Railway for Operating Trains Between Anacostia and South End. Also includes "Special Instructions for the Government of Employes of Potomac Yard" for the same railroads. For those of you modeling the south end of the system, this file's for you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:14:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <4F100C8B-7CFE-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caboose to get new home E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards Tuesday, March 23, 2004 BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN For The Patriot-News West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. That represents a detour from a proposal that would have moved the caboose to the Lykens Railroad Station. After months of considerations by officials, the vintage Pennsylvania Railroad car has seen a lot of mileage -- and it hasn't left the yard of the West Hanover Twp. municipal building. West Hanover Twp. supervisors voted unanimously last week to donate the caboose in response to a proposal submitted by East Pennsboro Twp. Manager Robert Gill. East Pennsboro commissioners agreed to make the offer March 3. East Pennsboro officials plan to place the 1942 railroad car in Adams-Ricci Community Park at Margo Road and East Penn Drive. "When you really boil it down, this is the kind of project we were hoping to get. This is the perfect ending for this long saga," said West Hanover Supervisor Robert Ziltz. West Hanover Twp. has owned the caboose for more than a decade, but has sought to move it for months. Although West Hanover officials had hoped to rent out the caboose for festive events such as children's birthday parties, those plans never really took off, officials said. East Pennsboro recently acquired an additional 42 acres for the Adams-Ricci Community Park, expanding it to a spacious 120-plus acres, including baseball and soccer fields, and tennis, volleyball and basketball courts. The Historical Society of East Pennsboro Twp., in conjunction with township officials, is planning a 100th anniversary celebration of the Enola Railroad Yards in 2005. The facility opened in 1905 and utilized up to 67 tracks on 375 acres at its peak, remaining the township's largest employer until the 1950s. "The caboose would be a great attraction to our festivities. We are a very proud community, and the railroad is a symbol of our heritage these last 100 years," said Herb Kruger, president of the historical society. In January, Edward Carney, chairman of the Dauphin County Planning Commission, asked West Hanover supervisors to grant rights to the caboose to Lykens Railroad Station. The historic station is being renovated into a rail museum with a nearby trail, a project overseen by the Dauphin County Parks and Recreation department. Although West Hanover officials said they were enthusiastic about Carney's proposal, it never officially was endorsed by Dauphin County Commissioners -- and therefore lacked county funding -- by the township's March 12 bid deadline. West Hanover Twp. Manager Michael Rimer said he contacted the county several times over the winter regarding the caboose. "The county was not interested in acquiring a caboose," he said. The township also received an offer March 8 from the Lykens Chamber of Commerce to "relocate the caboose in a very timely manner" to the Lykens Train Station. County commissioners notified West Hanover in a March 12 fax that they were endorsing "Lykens in its quest to obtain [the] caboose." West Hanover supervisors said their first choice had been to donate the caboose to a municipality. East Pennsboro plans to move the caboose to its new site by July. West Hanover bought the car in 1993 for $13,910. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 14:14:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <4F100C8B-7CFE-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Caboose to get new home E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards Tuesday, March 23, 2004 BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN For The Patriot-News West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. That represents a detour from a proposal that would have moved the caboose to the Lykens Railroad Station. After months of considerations by officials, the vintage Pennsylvania Railroad car has seen a lot of mileage -- and it hasn't left the yard of the West Hanover Twp. municipal building. West Hanover Twp. supervisors voted unanimously last week to donate the caboose in response to a proposal submitted by East Pennsboro Twp. Manager Robert Gill. East Pennsboro commissioners agreed to make the offer March 3. East Pennsboro officials plan to place the 1942 railroad car in Adams-Ricci Community Park at Margo Road and East Penn Drive. "When you really boil it down, this is the kind of project we were hoping to get. This is the perfect ending for this long saga," said West Hanover Supervisor Robert Ziltz. West Hanover Twp. has owned the caboose for more than a decade, but has sought to move it for months. Although West Hanover officials had hoped to rent out the caboose for festive events such as children's birthday parties, those plans never really took off, officials said. East Pennsboro recently acquired an additional 42 acres for the Adams-Ricci Community Park, expanding it to a spacious 120-plus acres, including baseball and soccer fields, and tennis, volleyball and basketball courts. The Historical Society of East Pennsboro Twp., in conjunction with township officials, is planning a 100th anniversary celebration of the Enola Railroad Yards in 2005. The facility opened in 1905 and utilized up to 67 tracks on 375 acres at its peak, remaining the township's largest employer until the 1950s. "The caboose would be a great attraction to our festivities. We are a very proud community, and the railroad is a symbol of our heritage these last 100 years," said Herb Kruger, president of the historical society. In January, Edward Carney, chairman of the Dauphin County Planning Commission, asked West Hanover supervisors to grant rights to the caboose to Lykens Railroad Station. The historic station is being renovated into a rail museum with a nearby trail, a project overseen by the Dauphin County Parks and Recreation department. Although West Hanover officials said they were enthusiastic about Carney's proposal, it never officially was endorsed by Dauphin County Commissioners -- and therefore lacked county funding -- by the township's March 12 bid deadline. West Hanover Twp. Manager Michael Rimer said he contacted the county several times over the winter regarding the caboose. "The county was not interested in acquiring a caboose," he said. The township also received an offer March 8 from the Lykens Chamber of Commerce to "relocate the caboose in a very timely manner" to the Lykens Train Station. County commissioners notified West Hanover in a March 12 fax that they were endorsing "Lykens in its quest to obtain [the] caboose." West Hanover supervisors said their first choice had been to donate the caboose to a municipality. East Pennsboro plans to move the caboose to its new site by July. West Hanover bought the car in 1993 for $13,910. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:02:04 -0500 From: Ike Subject: Re: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.41 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Crap! I was hoping this would take off in Lykens and give me something local to get involved in... I hope they don't drop the ball on the station museum as well.. As an aside- the station in Elizabethville on the Lykens branch is still in use as well.. Just painted a hideous color. Jerry Britton wrote: > Caboose to get new home > E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards > > Tuesday, March 23, 2004 > > BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN > For The Patriot-News > > West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola > Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. > -- Yours, Troy Troy M. Snyder 9342 RT 209 Williamstown,PA 17098 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:25:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms From: "Frederic H. Abendschein" > From: "Alex Charyna" > Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:57:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes: > As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not > been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female > rooms. > Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? > Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in bad language. This practice did not end in the 1880s. In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want to be in such a car. Lee Rainey --part1_31.459974cd.2d9236e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:= 31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes:


As the stations were built in t= he mid to late 1800s, I would have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate waiting rooms?


Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of that e= ra. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in bad lan= guage.

This practice did not end in the 1880s.

In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home from=20= college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always directed me= to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excl= uding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking=20= with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the right (remember,= this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of smoke, cool and=20= pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want to be in suc= h a car.

Lee Rainey --part1_31.459974cd.2d9236e8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:05:04 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Women were considered delicate creatures and this protected the more sheltered of them from the wide range of male humanity during their travels and, as pointed out, cigars, chewing tobacco, etc. Another example: in the old hotel at Pullman, Illinois, the women had a private parlor which they could access by using the back stairs from their room so they didn't even have to traverse the lobby. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Charyna" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10:49 AM Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms > Listers, > I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in > some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). > As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not > been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female > rooms. > Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? > -alex > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:48:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N Scale PRR "Texas Eagle" Cars Introduced From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <83450E64-7D91-11D8-9D27-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Marshall Shops, known for their SP "Daylight" and MP "Texas Eagle" passenger car sides, has returned to the market after a year of absence. And with their return they are releasing ACF Plan 9008 10-6 sleepers....those used by the PRR in interchange service on the "Penn Texas". These are laser cut Lexan sides, with paint masks and decals, designed to fit American Limited core kits. As of 1954, the following four "spots" on the Pennsy's "Penn Texas" were filled as follows: New York to El Paso (14 roomettes, 4 double bedrooms) "Eagle City" (T&P), "Eagle Beach" (T&P), "Eagle Summit" (MP), "Eagle Chain" (MP), or "Eagle Path" (T&P). New York to San Antonio (ACF 10-6, Plan 9008) "Eagle Charm", "Eagle Bluff", "Eagle Chief", or "Eagle Beam". New York to Houston (ACF 10-6, Plan 9008) "Eagle Grand", "Eagle Eye", "Eagle Cove" or "Eagle Head" Washington to St. Louis-Houston "Eagle Oak" (PRR, ACF 10-6, Plan 9008), "Elk River" (MP), "Crystal River" (MP), or "Roaming River" (MP). (The MP cars were Budd built and are not available at this time.) These sides will be available shortly. You can view a photo of the PRR 10-6 at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html and scroll down to "Due in April". This is a poor quality pic and I hope to have a better one in about three weeks. Samples of these cars (completed) will be on display at the PRRT&HS annual meeting in late April. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] MAJOR Announcement - Pennsy S Models S Scale Brass X29 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:46:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Today is a very special day for me. Both of my websites have been updated. But first, here is the BIG news. I have been waiting for over 7 years to make this announcement. We have received another REA pilot model from my builder on Monday. It is VERY good. I have approved it to finally START PRODUCTION of the Railway Express version. After almost 4 years with my current builder, a few pilot models, and hundreds of hours and emails, we have arrived. I am getting the exact model that I have wanted since its inception, without ONE compromise to details. I have not seen all of them on ANY brass model in any scale before. It features punched rivets, prototypical draft gear, stainless steel wheels and stainless steel pointed axles, and a full functioning coil and leaf spring package. Most of the castings were cast in America from American made master patterns. If you want a REA version, the time to act is NOW. We are locking in the final production quantity in about 2 weeks. Once the REA version is completed and ships to us, the price will increase to at least $300.00. We have held the 3-year-old price to $250.00 in spite of extreme cost overruns. The freight versions that include B & O and NYC will follow later this year. We will have production REA cars at the NASG convention in July. Please see the Pennsy S Models website below for new photos of the car and a link to download the PDF order form. I have also updated my Lanes Trains website with new photos of my models. I have also added an HO section with more HO pieces being completed next week. I am taking in new models for painting as well. Please contact me directly. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:06:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/04 Re: Mens'/ womens' waiting rooms. In the 1800s it would not have been "proper" for a unattended woman to be alone with one or more men? John Liebeskind -------------------------------1080137191 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Re: Mens'/ womens' waiting rooms.
In the 1800s it would not have been "proper" for a  unattended wom= an to be alone with one or more men?
John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080137191-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:10:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/04 Disregard last mesage since I have scrolled down and seen someone has already provided a better answer. J. -------------------------------1080137439 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Disregard last mesage since I have scrolled down and seen someone has alr= eady provided a better answer. J. -------------------------------1080137439-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:07:30 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Segregation of the sexes in public buildings still exists in certain parts of the world. The Saudi Arabian airports I have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections for women, who are veiled, and men.=20 -----Original Message----- From: LeeRainey@aol.com [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:57 PM To: alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes: As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not=20 been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female=20 rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in bad language. This practice did not end in the 1880s. In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want to be in such a car. Lee Rainey=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C411B1.BA0232AC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Segregation of the sexes in public buildings = still=20 exists in certain parts of the world.  The Saudi Arabian = airports I=20 have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections = for women,=20 who are veiled, and men.
-----Original Message-----
From: LeeRainey@aol.com=20 [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 = 6:57=20 PM
To: alex@arclyte.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms

In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern = Standard Time,=20 alex@arclyte.com writes:


As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I = would=20 have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not = male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate waiting = rooms?


Same reason that there were "ladies' = cars" and=20 "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, = spat and=20 perhaps indulged in bad language.

This practice did not end in = the=20 1880s.

In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy = passenger=20 train home from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the = conductor=20 always directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the = train by=20 that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always = unpleasant, hot=20 and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on = the right=20 (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of = smoke,=20 cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would = want to be=20 in such a car.

Lee Rainey = ------_=_NextPart_001_01C411B1.BA0232AC-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] RE: Stations and waiting rooms Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:24:17 -0500 Greg, you are correct about the social structure back then. The depot at = the R&GVRRM was built in 1907 with separate waiting rooms, on opposite = sides of the ticket office. And, don't forget the other spurious element = in this story line, the traveling salesman or drummer whose sometimes = shady stories and jokes were also unwelcome by the ladies. I am = currently trying to find out when this practice ended at this location. OATKA / Industry depot on the Rochester Br of the Erie, but we have a = PRR connection,we own the Hammerhead 8445 (she still gets exercised) an = N5c and a H21g.=20 Check out the link , go to LV 211, bottom of that page and click on the = links for more pics. Yes, I am aware that it is currently in the wrong = scheme ,but , when it comes time to paint it again who knows. Lynn http://www.rochnrhs.org/rgvrrm.html =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4118A.2A93B9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Greg, you are correct about the social=20 structure back then. The depot at the R&GVRRM was built in 1907 = with=20 separate waiting rooms, on opposite sides of the ticket office. And, = don't=20 forget the other spurious element in this story line, the traveling = salesman or=20 drummer whose sometimes shady stories and jokes were also unwelcome by = the=20 ladies. I am currently trying to find out when this practice = ended at=20 this location.
OATKA / Industry depot on the = Rochester Br of=20 the Erie, but we have a PRR connection,we own the Hammerhead = 8445 (she=20 still gets exercised) an N5c and a H21g. 
 Check out the link , go to LV = 211, bottom of=20 that page and click on the links for more pics. Yes, I am aware that it = is=20 currently in the wrong scheme ,but , when it comes time to paint it = again=20 who knows.
Lynn
 
http://www.rochnrhs.org/rgvr= rm.html
  
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C4118A.2A93B9E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:39:27 -0500 I don't believe there is a single Saudi airport that the PRR ever = stopped in. =20 regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:08 AM To: LeeRainey@aol.com; alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Segregation of the sexes in public buildings still exists in certain = parts of the world. The Saudi Arabian airports I have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections for women, who are veiled, and = men.=20 -----Original Message----- From: LeeRainey@aol.com [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 6:57 PM To: alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, alex@arclyte.com writes: As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not=20 been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female=20 rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? Same reason that there were "ladies' cars" and "smokers" on trains of = that era. Men were uncouth beings who smoked, spat and perhaps indulged in = bad language. This practice did not end in the 1880s. In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a Pennsy passenger train home = from college on a regular basis. When I boarded, the conductor always = directed me to the car on the left (there were only two in the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was always unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned into the car on the = right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was rebellious.) It was free of = smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously assumed no man would want = to be in such a car. Lee Rainey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4118C.48220820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
I=20 don't believe there is a single Saudi airport that the PRR ever stopped=20 in.
 
regards,
Andy=20 Miller
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of = Cadwell,=20 Marvin L
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:08 = AM
To:=20 LeeRainey@aol.com; alex@arclyte.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE:=20 [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms

Segregation of the sexes in public = buildings still=20 exists in certain parts of the world.  The Saudi Arabian = airports I=20 have flown into and out of always have separate waiting sections = for=20 women, who are veiled, and men.
-----Original Message-----
From: = LeeRainey@aol.com=20 [mailto:LeeRainey@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 = 6:57=20 PM
To: alex@arclyte.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re:=20 [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms

In a message dated 3/23/2004 11:58:31 AM = Eastern Standard=20 Time, alex@arclyte.com writes:


As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I = would=20 have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but = not=20 male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate = waiting=20 rooms?


Same reason that there were = "ladies' cars"=20 and "smokers" on trains of that era. Men were uncouth beings who = smoked,=20 spat and perhaps indulged in bad language.

This practice did = not end=20 in the 1880s.

In the 1960s, I rode the sad remnants of a = Pennsy=20 passenger train home from college on a regular basis. When I = boarded, the=20 conductor always directed me to the car on the left (there were only = two in=20 the train by that time, excluding baggage, mail and express). It was = always=20 unpleasant, hot and reeking with smoke. One day I perversely turned = into the=20 car on the right (remember, this was the 60s and youth was = rebellious.) It=20 was free of smoke, cool and pleasant. But the conductor obviously = assumed no=20 man would want to be in such a car.

Lee Rainey=20
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C4118C.48220820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:31:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1964 Consist Book / 1925 Washington Yard From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Two more files added at Keystone Crossings... Yesterday I posted a 1945 employe timetable for Washington Yard. Today I have posted a 1926 version. Again, thanks to Jim Foley. In the Docs/ETT section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html But the biggie for today is the 1964 passenger consist book, provided by Ray Burghart. Unlike earlier editions, this one appears to be much more robust. North-south trains are included, as well as "corridor" trains and NYNH&H connecting trains. Not only are coaches listed, but specific classes. And trains that are MU powered are so noted. I would love to have this much info for 1954! The only thing I have for '54 that is not noted here are the actual sleeper assignments (by name). You can download this file from the Passenger Ops section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ Side note: I think yesterday may have been a record -- Keystone Crossings served out 1.7 GB of data! P.S. One of our astute readers found a cosmetic issue on page 21 of the Northern Division/Main Line track chart that I posted yesterday. I corrected it. If you had downloaded it, you might want to grab it again. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:59:01 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Smith Subject: [PRR] Lighted numberboard operation Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 12:01:50 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AST-4, AC-2 and AC-4 From: Frederick Ripley From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:13:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lighted numberboard operation They were lit when the headlights were lit. All the locos I have ever seen at night had all the number boards lit. Had nothing to do with the class lights. Bill --part1_6a.3d38102e.2d9329e6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" They were lit when the headlights w= ere lit.  All the locos I have ever seen at night had all the number bo= ards lit.  Had nothing to do with the class lights.  Bill --part1_6a.3d38102e.2d9329e6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] MOW FM Tower Car Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:48:07 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, Does anybody know of whereabouts for drawings of a PRR MOW Tower Car. These would be the structural members used with an FM class flatcar to inspect/repair/etc. Catenary. It would be an interesting scratchbuilding project. TAOT Best Regards, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR regions Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:12:55 -0500 Would someone please explain to me where the Central Region and the = Eastern Region are. Thanks. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Would someone please explain to me = where the=20 Central Region and the Eastern Region are.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR regions Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:12:55 -0500 Would someone please explain to me where the Central Region and the = Eastern Region are. Thanks. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Would someone please explain to me = where the=20 Central Region and the Eastern Region are.
 
Thanks.
 
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C411C3.3F6A9120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] 1964 Consist Book / 1925 Washington Yard Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:01:44 -0500 To: Tom Kane X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry folks, didn't mean to be a tease! Thanks, Tom! On Mar 24, 2004, at 4:36 PM, Tom Kane wrote: > Jerry, > > There does not seem to be a link for the 1964 passenger consist book. > The > text is there but no hotspot. > > Tom Kane > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 11:31 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] 1964 Consist Book / 1925 Washington Yard > > > Two more files added at Keystone Crossings... > > Yesterday I posted a 1945 employe timetable for Washington Yard. Today > I have posted a 1926 version. Again, thanks to Jim Foley. In the > Docs/ETT section... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html > > But the biggie for today is the 1964 passenger consist book, provided > by Ray Burghart. Unlike earlier editions, this one appears to be much > more robust. North-south trains are included, as well as "corridor" > trains and NYNH&H connecting trains. Not only are coaches listed, but > specific classes. And trains that are MU powered are so noted. I would > love to have this much info for 1954! The only thing I have for '54 > that is not noted here are the actual sleeper assignments (by name). > You can download this file from the Passenger Ops section... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ > > Side note: I think yesterday may have been a record -- Keystone > Crossings served out 1.7 GB of data! > > P.S. One of our astute readers found a cosmetic issue on page 21 of the > Northern Division/Main Line track chart that I posted yesterday. I > corrected it. If you had downloaded it, you might want to grab it > again. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone > Crossings" > - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1F843DB3-7DE8-11D8-8920-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Bowser N8's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:08:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The Bowser N8's are out and they look pretty good. The lettering is clear and the colors, where applicable, are excellent. Those modeling the pool service cars will appreciate the colored cupolas. Now, for those who moaned and groaned over the thickness of the grabs... 99% of you will be very pleased. They are VERY thin. Probably the thinnest I have ever seen in plastic! The roofwalks, likewise, are extremely well done. Now, for the flip side, and I hope I am wrong, but I'd bet there will be moans and groans that people BREAK the grabs because they are so thin. Now wouldn't that be ironic! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:42:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR regions The Central Region did go beyond Pittsburgh, through Canton as far as Crestline, Ohio on the route of the "Broadway Limited", which was the Eastern Div. of Lines West. The Western Region began at the end of the Central Region. The Central Region also included the Panhandle Division. Dennis Sautters Canton, OH -------------------------------1080175333 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
The Central Region did go beyond Pittsburgh, through Canton as far= as Crestline, Ohio on the route of the "Broadway Limited", which was t= he Eastern Div. of Lines West. The Western Region began at the end of the Ce= ntral Region.  The Central Region also included the Panhandle Division.=
 
Dennis Sautters
Canton, OH
 
 
-------------------------------1080175333-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5BF45330-7DFD-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:40:13 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hey, gang... BLI updated their web site tonight with pre-production photos of the forthcoming E7's. Yes, trainphones! I did note one noteworthy error that I have reported to BLI. Anyone else notice it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <5BF45330-7DFD-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:40:13 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hey, gang... BLI updated their web site tonight with pre-production photos of the forthcoming E7's. Yes, trainphones! I did note one noteworthy error that I have reported to BLI. Anyone else notice it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:47:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Last week I spent a lot of time poring over photos of E7's, preparing to "prototype" a fleet of N scale Life Like E7's. I've learned a lot about the various units on the roster. Now that BLI has posted photos of their HO models, we can identify that the model most closely reflects the second and third batches of PRR orders... The Pennsy ordered E7's in four batches... The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had freight pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had grills (most units had louvers). The second and third batches contained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, even numbers only, plus 5900). They had passenger pilots and one single chime horn. The fourth and final batch contained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like the first batch, they had grills instead of louvers in the panel behind the cab doors. There were also some additional vents on the side, and the window arrangement was different. Initial units did not have lift rings or trainphones. At first they were added by the Pennsy, later at the factory. All A units probably had these by the end of the 1940's. Note that the added vents, change in windows, and grill over the panel behind the cab door that were included in the fourth batch were retrofitted to many other units in the mid-1950's. Also in the mid-1950's -- probably when the paint scheme changed to single wide stripe in 1956 -- the small, streamlined number boards were replaced with large, external, angled number boards. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:47:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Last week I spent a lot of time poring over photos of E7's, preparing to "prototype" a fleet of N scale Life Like E7's. I've learned a lot about the various units on the roster. Now that BLI has posted photos of their HO models, we can identify that the model most closely reflects the second and third batches of PRR orders... The Pennsy ordered E7's in four batches... The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had freight pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had grills (most units had louvers). The second and third batches contained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, even numbers only, plus 5900). They had passenger pilots and one single chime horn. The fourth and final batch contained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like the first batch, they had grills instead of louvers in the panel behind the cab doors. There were also some additional vents on the side, and the window arrangement was different. Initial units did not have lift rings or trainphones. At first they were added by the Pennsy, later at the factory. All A units probably had these by the end of the 1940's. Note that the added vents, change in windows, and grill over the panel behind the cab door that were included in the fourth batch were retrofitted to many other units in the mid-1950's. Also in the mid-1950's -- probably when the paint scheme changed to single wide stripe in 1956 -- the small, streamlined number boards were replaced with large, external, angled number boards. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:15:14 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5BF45330-7DFD-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: -----Original Message----- I did note one noteworthy error that I have reported to BLI. Anyone else notice it? The striping color looks the same on both units. The DGLE model should have gold leaf stripes. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI Disclaimer Reminder Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:18:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I will remind all that the photos posted on BLI's site bear the=20 following message: "NOTE: These are engineering sample photos and there are some=20 imperfections. Changes may be made to final product.=A0" ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:25:52 -0500 To: "Andy Cich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 9:15 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > > The striping color looks the same on both units. The DGLE model > should have > gold leaf stripes. Hadn't noticed that! But you are right! But when I looked to confirm, I noticed another detail they got right. Note the numbers in the number board on the DGLE unit are very small. That's correct. And originally the Tuscan units were the same. But later the numbers were made larger, as in the Tuscan unit that is depicted. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:50:48 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, First regarding my color comment, I should have added the caveat that we are looking at web photos. However, the with the units side by side I would expect to notice a difference. I do like your summary of the 4 batches of deliveries. I do have one slight disagreement with your description of the 4th batch. I think the extra vents you are describing is the "Phase 2 carbody modification" that was applied to all* units in the early 50's. (I shouldn't say all, since some units may not have been converted.) Basically, additional vents were added to the side and a window was lost. The vent behind the cab was changed, and another was added on the side near the top rear. Also, the louvres on the roof were changed to a "chicken wire" type. Delta Models makes this part in HO. Look for part DM-300 http://www.deltamodels.bigstep.com/generic.html?pid=22 Finally, have you noticed that there were three different passenger pilots supplied by EMD? I can't take credit for noticing this myself. I think Steve Hoxie originally brought it up. If you have Withers Vol. 7, see if you can find them. I am talking about three different "as-built" versions. Not later modifications. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:55:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <70269692-7DFE-11D8-8260-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, Oops, I just re-read your message and saw where you noted the carbody changes were applied to other units. I'm still not sure if the 4th batch was built with these modifications. Time to find a builders photo. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Milk cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:32:14 -0500 Jerry, from your 1954 Makeup of trains, does it show milk cars returning = in another train as empties ?? If so, what was the time difference at = destination until the train with empties left ?? ------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C41200.9F0AC680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jerry, from your 1954 Makeup of trains, = does it=20 show milk cars returning in another train as empties = ??    If so,=20 what was the time difference at destination until the train with empties = left=20 ??
------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C41200.9F0AC680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:10:01 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry--I have to agree with Andy on his comments about the fourth batch: as delivered window, vent, and grill configuration just like the previous batches. See Withers Vol. 7 p. 496, engine 5869, for one example. And Andy wrote: > > I think the extra > vents you are describing is the "Phase 2 carbody modification" that was > applied to all* units in the early 50's. (I shouldn't say all, since some > units may not have been converted.) > Puleeeeeeeeeeeeze, somebody come up with a 1954 photo of an "unconverted" E-7! With little hope of a positive response to my plea, the BLI Tuscan Red engine is sadly a fantasy with its original vents/windows/grills. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 04:53:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The Pennsy ordered E7's in four batches... > > The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had > freight pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had > grills (most units had louvers). But the freight pilot as you call it (actually better known as the exposed coupler pilot by EMD) was of the early type used on the FT units, note the extreme cut back slope... (Andy pilot #1) This was later modified by EMD. The area behind the entry door where the intake filters set (your reference as grills and louvers) was actually where the entry door was on the EMD E6 and earlier units... Also all units were delivered with slatted grills on the roof this will change more later... > The second and third batches contained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and > 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, even numbers only, plus 5900). They had > passenger pilots and one single chime horn. Let's use the EMD terminology of enclosed coupler pilot ... the clam shell type... I refer to this as the "type 1 boxy pilot" (Andy pilot #2) The air intake filters are now behind shutters (your reference as louvers). The early units were all delivered with box journals on the trucks and over time this changes... Railroad modification. > The fourth and final batch contained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like > the first batch, they had grills instead of louvers in the panel behind the > cab doors. There were also some additional vents on the side, and the window > arrangement was different. OOPS look closer ... these units were delivered with shutters behind the door as well ... the window arrangement didn't change and the vents didn't change as delivered ... they now have a newer enclosed coupler pilot a "type 2 streamlined " clam shell (Andy pilot #3). > Initial units did not have lift rings or trainphones. At first they were > added by the Pennsy, later at the factory. All A units probably had these by > the end of the 1940's. I think you are marking reference to the "Lifting Lugs" on the nose. The last batch was delivered with these, the first three were not, they were added later, just as with the F units. > Note that the added vents, change in windows, and grill over the panel > behind the cab door that were included in the fourth batch were retrofitted to > many other units in the mid-1950's. Actually the air intake system began being modified on or about April of 1951, with the addition of the rear vent, the roof vent changing from the slatted grills to the less restrictive "chicken wire" (as Andy calls it and yes the Delta Models are great etchings I have mine already). This was done to provide more air flow over the radiators. By the end of the 50's all units were converted and most by 1954... Now we loose a window as Andy notes... > Also in the mid-1950's -- probably when the paint scheme changed to single > wide stripe in 1956 -- the small, streamlined number boards were replaced > with large, external, angled number boards. > EMD created two styles of streamlined number boards, a "three digit number board" and a "four digit number board" I refer to the PRR's as "4-digit Streamlined number boards." The number boards were changed in shopping's in late 1954 or early 1955 along with the modified exposed coupler pilot (PRR mod). Some of the first journal swaps appeared as early as 1956 while still in 5-stripes. Then Jerry writes... And I noticed that there are (correctly) two exhaust stacks for the steam generators. A lot of predecessor models only have one. (What Jerry is seeing is two intake vents and the box ahead is the exhaust stack like the ALCo PA type, but not correct for the PRR, but good for some SANTA FE GP-9's) OOOPPPPSSS! Only if they are EMD E-8's... The E7's have a single exhaust and single intake style intake as per the Vapor DRK-4530 system and the E-8's were equipped with the Vapor OK-4625 system "Twins." The AP-20/AFP20's were also equipped with the Vapor DRK-4530 system albeit the exhaust stack and intake stack didn't look like the EMD's. YIKES SORRY! >From examining the photos... The steam generator system is wrong for PRR... The pilots are wrong for this configuration of pre 1951... The horns are wrong for this configuration... The stripe on the DGLE unit should be Gold Leaf... The Tuscan units appears to have too much yellow in the stripes... (this might be the photography) but they should be BUFF PRR SHADE ... but shouldn't appear in this paint scheme with this configuration... It is a shame that we have another E7 in the very early configuration offered in PRR. This has been done before and what I would like to see is the later config. Does anyone know if the shell is plastic or metal? If Plastic these things can be overcome. The sound option is nice but Life Like's units are being retooled and will have sound as well. I did run a set of UP E7's from BLI in Cocoa Beach and their pulling ability was less than I had expected ... but the sound was great. Sorry I know I am a picky "moaning" bastard (as Jerry mentions in his N8 message) and a rivet counter to boot but that is what I see from my side of the fence, but it is not without repair as any of the prior units released have the same issues. That RATSO Greg Martin --part1_d4.855d75f.2d940609_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" jerry@pennsyrr.com w= rites:

The Pennsy ordered E7's in four= batches...

The first batch was two A units, numbers 5900 and 5901. These units had frei= ght pilots, two single chime horns, and the panel behind the cab doors had g= rills (most units had louvers).


But the freight pilot as you call it (actually better known a= s the exposed coupler pilot by EMD) was of the early type used on the FT uni= ts, note the extreme cut back slope... (Andy pilot #1) This was later modifi= ed by EMD. The area behind the entry door where the intake filters set (your= reference as grills and louvers) was actually where the entry door was on t= he EMD E6 and earlier units... Also all units were delivered with slatted gr= ills on the roof this will change more later...

The second and third batches co= ntained 26 A units (numbers 5840-5865) and 14 B units (numbers 5840-5864, ev= en numbers only, plus 5900). They had passenger pilots and one single chime=20= horn.


Let's use the EMD terminology of enclosed coupler pilot ... the clam shell t= ype... I refer to this as the "type 1 boxy pilot" (Andy pilot #2) The air in= take filters are now behind shutters (your reference as louvers). The early=20= units were all delivered with box journals on the trucks and over time this=20= changes... Railroad modification.

The fourth and final batch cont= ained 18 A units (numbers 5866-5883). Like the first batch, they had grills=20= instead of louvers in the panel behind the cab doors. There were also some a= dditional vents on the side, and the window arrangement was different.

OOPS look closer ... these units were delivered with shutters= behind the door as well ... the window arrangement didn't change and the ve= nts didn't change as delivered ... they now have a newer enclosed coupler pi= lot a "type 2 streamlined " clam shell (Andy pilot #3).

Initial units did not have lift= rings or trainphones. At first they were added by the Pennsy, later at the=20= factory. All A units probably had these by the end of the 1940's.

I think you are marking reference to the "Lifting Lugs" on th= e nose. The last batch was delivered with these, the first three were not, t= hey were added later, just as with the F units.

Note that the added vents, chan= ge in windows, and grill over the panel behind the cab door that were includ= ed in the fourth batch were retrofitted to many other units in the mid-1950'= s.


Actually the air intake system began being modified on or abo= ut April of 1951, with the addition of the rear vent, the roof vent changing= from the slatted grills to the less restrictive "chicken wire" (as Andy cal= ls it and yes the Delta Models are great etchings I have mine already). This= was done to provide more air flow over the radiators. By the end of the 50'= s all units were converted and most by 1954...  Now we loose a window a= s Andy notes...

Also in the mid-1950's -- proba= bly when the paint scheme changed to single wide stripe in 1956 -- the small= , streamlined number boards were replaced with large, external, angled numbe= r boards.


EMD created two styles of streamlined number boards, a "three digit number b= oard" and a "four digit number board" I refer to the PRR's as "4-digit Strea= mlined number boards."  The number boards were changed in shopping's in= late 1954 or early 1955 along with the modified exposed coupler pilot (PRR=20= mod). Some of the first journal swaps appeared as early as 1956 while still=20= in 5-stripes.

Then Jerry writes...

And I noticed that there are (correctly) two exhaust stacks for the steam g= enerators. A lot of predecessor models only have one. (What Jerry is seeing=20= is two intake vents and the box ahead is the exhaust stack like the ALCo PA=20= type, but not correct for the PRR, but good for some SANTA FE GP-9's)

OOOPPPPSSS! Only if they are EMD E-8's... The E7's have a sin= gle exhaust and single intake style intake as per the Vapor DRK-4530 system=20= and the E-8's were equipped with the Vapor OK-4625 system "Twins." The AP-20= /AFP20's were also equipped with the Vapor DRK-4530 system albeit the exhaus= t stack and intake stack didn't look like the EMD's. YIKES SORRY!

>From examining the photos... The steam generator system is wrong for PRR...=20= The pilots are wrong for this configuration of pre 1951...  The horns a= re wrong for this configuration... The stripe on the DGLE unit should be Gol= d Leaf... The Tuscan units appears to have too much yellow in the stripes...= (this might be the photography) but they should be BUFF PRR SHADE ... but s= houldn't appear in this paint scheme with this configuration...

It is a shame that we have another E7 in the very early configuration offere= d in PRR. This has been done before and what I would like to see is the late= r config.

Does anyone know if the shell is plastic or metal?  If Plastic these th= ings can be overcome.  The sound option is nice but Life Like's units a= re being retooled and will have sound as well. I did run a set of UP E7's fr= om BLI in Cocoa Beach and their pulling ability was less than I had expected= ... but the sound was great.

Sorry I know I am a picky "moaning" bastard (as Jerry mentions in his N8 mes= sage) and a rivet counter to boot but that is what I see from my side of the= fence, but it is not without repair as any of the prior units released have= the same issues.

That RATSO

Greg Martin  --part1_d4.855d75f.2d940609_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:33:35 -0500 To: "Andy Cich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 9:50 PM, Andy Cich wrote: > Finally, have you noticed that there were three different passenger > pilots > supplied by EMD? I can't take credit for noticing this myself. I > think > Steve Hoxie originally brought it up. If you have Withers Vol. 7, see > if > you can find them. I am talking about three different "as-built" > versions. Not later modifications. The first batch had freight pilots. I wasn't aware of three different passenger pilots, but I was aware of one passenger pilot which had two variants of the doors that covered the coupler when not in use. Is this what you are referring to? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "PRR-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 06:36:18 -0500 To: "STEPHEN HOXIE" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 25, 2004, at 1:10 AM, STEPHEN HOXIE wrote: > And Andy wrote: >> >> I think the extra >> vents you are describing is the "Phase 2 carbody modification" that >> was >> applied to all* units in the early 50's. (I shouldn't say all, since >> some >> units may not have been converted.) >> > Puleeeeeeeeeeeeze, somebody come up with a 1954 photo of an > "unconverted" > E-7! With little hope of a positive response to my plea, the BLI > Tuscan Red > engine is sadly a fantasy with its original vents/windows/grills. There are DEFINITELY examples of unmodified units well after 1954. I think the Withers book has them, but I viewed them last week in my N scale research. What I cannot account for is the road names that BLI is doing and what year they may, or may not, have been converted. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:32:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/24/04 In a message dated 3/24/04 1:11:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Gregg is right on the money about the waiting rooms (plural) for men and > women, even in the smaller towns such as Spring City. > > Here in Columbia the Reading and Columbia station, designed in the 1880s by > the famous Philadelphia architect frank Furness, who also did Broad Street > station (see, there is a Pennsy connection) had both a men's and women's > waiting rooms. There was a sign above one entrance and it said "Waiting > Rooms." > > Fred Abendschein > Not only did the men's waiting room really mean "smoking, chewing, and profanity" room, but the women's waiting room meant "women and children" room. Obviously, the separate rooms were to protect men against the annoyance of crying babies... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_8c.6aa9776.2d942b6f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/24/04 1:11:33=20= AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Gregg is right on the money abo= ut the waiting rooms (plural) for men and
women, even in the smaller towns such as Spring City.

Here in Columbia the Reading and Columbia station, designed in the 1880s by<= BR> the famous Philadelphia architect frank Furness, who also did Broad Street station (see, there is a Pennsy connection) had both a men's and women's
waiting rooms.  There was a sign above one entrance and it said "Waitin= g
Rooms."

Fred Abendschein


Not only did the men's waiting room really mean "smoking, chewing, and profa= nity" room, but the women's waiting room meant "women and children" room.&nb= sp; Obviously, the separate rooms were to protect men against the annoyance=20= of crying babies... <G>

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_8c.6aa9776.2d942b6f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Water/signal bridge Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:11:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, How accurate and correct is this water bridge? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3183644880 Is there a more accurate example? Am I correct in that it is the same structure as a signal bridge? Please reply to me privately as I do not want to distract from this person's Ebay sale. Finally what is the acceptable length increase to take in account the wider model track centers vs. the closer prototype track centers? I have heard of previously made HO models that were very nice but could used be because they were too close to fit the width of the model mainline. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:37:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI & East Coast Hobby Show From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <97FC435E-7E61-11D8-9DBD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'd e-mailed BLI on the E7 horns. Already got a response. They will take my "opinion" on the horns into consideration and see what others have to say when they display them at the East Coast Hobby Show. So if you are going to the show, comment on the: 1) Extra horn that should be removed; 2) Lettering and striping on the DGLE unit that should be Gold Leaf, not Buff; 3) Lift rings that should be added (though modeler could do). I'm sure they'll have the J1's on display...maybe even the switchers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on BLI E7's Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:58:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry wrote-- > > There are DEFINITELY examples of unmodified units well after 1954. I > think the Withers book has them, but I viewed them last week in my N > scale research. > Again, please point out book/page/engine number. I have been thru Withers dozens of times; I don't see unmodified units in any book later than 1952. Thanks, Jerry!! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:03:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <41CE2B18-7E65-11D8-9DBD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Until 6-18-53, the Keystone on the front of the locomotive contained the road number. The DGLE was changed to Tuscan as of 8-11-52. But the BLI E7 has the PRR monogram inside the Keystone, which would be incorrect. For all DGLE and and on Tuscan paint jobs through 9-2-53, the five stripes ran right across the windows. Yes, the windows were painted! So the DGLE paint job is incorrect and the Tuscan paint job is open to dating interpretation. Is anyone from the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee following this thread, so as to contact BLI on behalf of the Society? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Oil City Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500 Bob N. and others, about 2 miles up stream from Oil City at Rouseville = the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it splits to each side of the = creek from there to Titusville.=20 Was there that much traffic 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage or = did the NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What is the rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City = ?? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob N. and others,  =  about 2 miles=20 up stream from Oil City at Rouseville the line
goes to double track to near Pioneer = where it=20 splits to each side of the creek from
there to Titusville. 
Was there that much traffic 70 years = ago to warrant=20 all the trackage or did
the NYC go up there to its line at = Titusville=20 ??
 
What is the rail line going up the hill = above the=20 east side of Oil City ??
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Oil City Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:16:31 -0500 Bob N. and others, about 2 miles up stream from Oil City at Rouseville = the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it splits to each side of the = creek from there to Titusville.=20 Was there that much traffic 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage or = did the NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What is the rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City = ?? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob N. and others,  =  about 2 miles=20 up stream from Oil City at Rouseville the line
goes to double track to near Pioneer = where it=20 splits to each side of the creek from
there to Titusville. 
Was there that much traffic 70 years = ago to warrant=20 all the trackage or did
the NYC go up there to its line at = Titusville=20 ??
 
What is the rail line going up the hill = above the=20 east side of Oil City ??
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C41249.DD0F5A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:14:42 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <41CE2B18-7E65-11D8-9DBD-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: While we are on the subject of BLI. I notice that they keep referring to their forthcoming stock car models as "based on" the PRR K7a. They never call it a model of the K7a's! Does this mean there are acknowledged discrepancies? If so, does anyone know what they are? Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:21:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Loco Models Road Number Size From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR passenger loco road numbers, as of June 1953, were 9" at the head end and 8" at the rear end. I've been successful in scanning in the Synthetic Buff (post 1952 stripes and lettering) drift card, color matching its CMYK elements, and accurately reproducing the color with output from a Ricoh color proofer (laser technology; which can print to decal film). Using Adobe Illustrator, I set type for road numbers at .05" high (8" / 160). I can print that, and actually read it! And the color is a dead ringer for not only the drift card, but also for recent Microscale decals. However, when I compare the output to existing Kato or Life Like models, my type is smaller. I don't have anything that can measure accurately at that size, but either the computer is doing something amiss, or the Kato and Life Like numbers are scaled about 12" or so. Anyone know? My plan is to produce road numbers without having to splice together individual numerals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:21:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Loco Models Road Number Size From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR passenger loco road numbers, as of June 1953, were 9" at the head end and 8" at the rear end. I've been successful in scanning in the Synthetic Buff (post 1952 stripes and lettering) drift card, color matching its CMYK elements, and accurately reproducing the color with output from a Ricoh color proofer (laser technology; which can print to decal film). Using Adobe Illustrator, I set type for road numbers at .05" high (8" / 160). I can print that, and actually read it! And the color is a dead ringer for not only the drift card, but also for recent Microscale decals. However, when I compare the output to existing Kato or Life Like models, my type is smaller. I don't have anything that can measure accurately at that size, but either the computer is doing something amiss, or the Kato and Life Like numbers are scaled about 12" or so. Anyone know? My plan is to produce road numbers without having to splice together individual numerals. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:27:41 +0000 From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:43:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, In regards to contacting BLI on the E7 problems, the PRR version particularly, I think it is far too late to do anything about. After reading all that is wrong with it, I believe it would be best if BLI throw the shell away and start spending another $500,000 on all new tooling. We know that is not going to happen. So, this model will probably keep all it's built in faults. I am not speaking on behalf of BLI or anyone else, just my opinion. BLI may be receptive in several small changes, ie, stripe color but don't expect to have the horn removed, the generator exhuast modified, etc, etc. Trying to sway their thinking on a loco about to go to press so to speak, probably isn't going to happen. Before BLI started to actually release models, I had timely responses, almost 100%, from their representitives, usually Tony himself. Since the models have been hitting production, replys from my emails have dropped to about 20%. I have a way around that it seems now. So, you diesels experts get together today and make a list, just 1 list, do not keep sending single suggestions in one at a time on PRR-Talk, of ALL details that need fixed to better represent a PRR E7 unit. I can forward them on if you wish. But like I said, too late for this model I am sure. .......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gary Leanz" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:46:40 -0500 Andy, I recently presented your question directly to BLI, who said that these = stock cars will be accurate PRR K7a models--with no intentional = discrepancies. BLI said the reason their literature says "based on" = the K7a is to avoid turning off non-PRR modelers, since the car will be = offered in several other roadnames. Gary Leanz ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Andy Miller" To: "'Jerry Britton'" ; "'PRR-Talk LIST'" = Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 9:14 AM Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock cars > While we are on the subject of BLI. I notice that they keep referring = to > their forthcoming stock car models as "based on" the PRR K7a. They = never > call it a model of the K7a's! Does this mean there are acknowledged > discrepancies? If so, does anyone know what they are? >=20 > Regards, > Andy Miller >=20 >=20 >=20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C4124E.12DAE160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Andy,
 
I recently presented your question = directly to=20 BLI, who said that these stock cars will be accurate = PRR K7a=20 models--with no intentional discrepancies.   BLI said the = reason their=20 literature says "based on" the K7a is to avoid turning off non-PRR=20 modelers, since the car will be offered in several other=20 roadnames.
 
Gary Leanz
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
To: "'Jerry Britton'" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>; = "'PRR-Talk=20 LIST'" <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 9:14 = AM
Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock=20 cars

> While we are on the subject of BLI.  I notice that = they keep=20 referring to
> their forthcoming stock car models as "based on" = the PRR=20 K7a.  They never
> call it a model of the K7a's!   = Does=20 this mean there are acknowledged
> discrepancies?  If so, = does anyone=20 know what they are?
>
> Regards,
> Andy = Miller
>=20
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C4124E.12DAE160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:14:08 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Freight car color From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:51:39 -0500 I believe it was proper for men and women to have separate waiting rooms during the good old days because women wanted to breast feed and men typically wanted to expectorate tabacky and smoke stogies. Things haven't changed much, except that in many cases the waiting rooms have been eliminated along with the tracks outside. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Alex Charyna [mailto:alex@arclyte.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:50 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Stations and Waiting Rooms Listers, I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting Rooms and Women's Waiting Rooms in some stations (Spring City in this case, but I've seen it elsewhere). As the stations were built in the mid to late 1800s, I would have not been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but not male-female rooms. Why would there have been separate waiting rooms? -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C41257.2798DA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
I=20 believe it was proper for men and women to have separate waiting rooms = during=20 the good old days because women wanted to breast feed and men typically = wanted=20 to expectorate tabacky and smoke stogies.  Things haven't = changed=20 much, except that in many cases the waiting rooms have been eliminated = along=20 with the tracks outside.
 
Bill=20 Volkmer
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex = Charyna=20 [mailto:alex@arclyte.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 = 11:50=20 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Stations = and=20 Waiting Rooms

Listers,
I've seen mentions of Men's Waiting = Rooms and=20 Women's Waiting Rooms in
some stations (Spring City in this case, = but I've=20 seen it elsewhere).
As the stations were built in the mid to late = 1800s, I=20 would have not
been as surprised to see race segregated rooms, but = not=20 male-female
rooms.
Why would there have been separate waiting=20 = rooms?
-alex



------------------------------------------= -----------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

<= /P>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C41257.2798DA40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:49:22 -0600 From: "Stephen Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the windows issue wasn't so cut = and dry. There are photos that show stripes on all the windows, stripes = on none of the windows, and every possible combination in between, = including one window in a pair with stripes and the other without. And = this is in both DGLE and Tuscan. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:05:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Stephen Hoxie wrote: > Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the windows issue wasn't so > cut and dry. There are photos that show stripes on all the windows, > stripes on none of the windows, and every possible combination in > between, including one window in a pair with stripes and the other > without. And this is in both DGLE and Tuscan. There are a couple such photos where the caption indicates the photo was retouched to remove them. In some of these, if you look close, you can actually see hints of the retouching. Also, I imagine paint scraped off of glass fairly easily, so I suspect the stripes on the glass would lose their intensity or disappear completely over time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:18:01 -0500 From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations RE: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations

Listers,

Do you think if the window broke and they replaced it = they would repaint the stripes?

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com]=
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:05 PM
To: Stephen Hoxie
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint = Observations


On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 11:49  AM, = Stephen Hoxie wrote:

> Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the = windows issue wasn't so
> cut and dry.  There are photos that show = stripes on all the windows,
> stripes on none of the windows, and every = possible combination in
> between, including one window in a pair with = stripes and the other
> without.  And this is in both DGLE and = Tuscan.

There are a couple such photos where the caption = indicates the photo
was retouched to remove them. In some of these, if = you look close, you
can actually see hints of the retouching.

Also, I imagine paint scraped off of glass fairly = easily, so I suspect
the stripes on the glass would lose their intensity = or disappear
completely over time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, = PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N = Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the = "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad = products...
     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4128D.207406A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] E unit portholes Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:20:53 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:27:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: BLI is getting into the passenger car business... First train out will be the California Zephyr. The PRR's "Silver Rapids" will be included. Suggested retail on the cars will be $64.99-69.99. I have no further details at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:48:54 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: And what kind of sound will come from the passenger cars? Snoring from the sleepers, belching from the diners, and from the restrooms... Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 3:27 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains BLI is getting into the passenger car business... First train out will be the California Zephyr. The PRR's "Silver=20 Rapids" will be included. Suggested retail on the cars will be $64.99-69.99. I have no further details at this time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone = Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:49:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 03:27 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > BLI is getting into the passenger car business... > > First train out will be the California Zephyr. The PRR's "Silver > Rapids" will be included. > > Suggested retail on the cars will be $64.99-69.99. > > I have no further details at this time. > Over 30 cars in all, to be released a few a month, starting in November. Lighted, so I assume with interiors. Maybe I shouldn't assume. One person speculated that the cars will be sound equiped... diners belching, sleepers snoring, lavatories... Never mind! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:50:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Passenger Trains From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 03:48 PM, Andy Miller wrote: > And what kind of sound will come from the passenger cars? > > Snoring from the sleepers, belching from the diners, and from the > restrooms... We just cross-posted! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:54:59 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] E unit portholes Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Norm ndbprr@att.net writes: > Anybody know why EMD switched to portholes instead of staying with the square windows? It has to be a styling related reason as they don't let in as much light. Norm, It was an effort to standardize parts between F-units and E-units. Remember the E units were still in production in the late 50's as E-9's for the Union Pacific. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:07:47 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Chris Chaney cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > Listers, > Do you think if the window broke and they replaced it they would repaint the stripes? > Chris Chany Chris, Not, I wouldn't believe they would but the that's not to say they didn't and there may be evidence that they did. The issue with the stripes coming off the windows was likely due to the wash racks... I know that the original "Gold Leaf" stripe (actually Bronze/Gold) was applied with common varnish as an adhesive including over the windows. As the varnishes broke donw I believe that the brittle stripe likely came off. But I can't prioove this as I was working in the shops. The adhesion to the glass was far less tht that to a painted surface. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Re: Oil City Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:25:02 -0500 Bob, check the map that you sent the link to. Lynn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C41285.B9964580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob, check the map that you sent the = link=20 to.
 
Lynn 
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C41285.B9964580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] The 3 EP20 "Passenger" pilots Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:26:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Here are the 3 "passenger" pilots as revealed to me by Steve Hoxie about a year ago. I will give examples from Withers Vol 7. P 471 shows 5843 with straight edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 484 shows these same style doors on 5852 in the open position. P 472 shows 5865 and 5871 with rounded edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 485 shows 5854 with the swinging clamshell doors in the closed position. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] The 3 EP20 "Passenger" pilots Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:26:02 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Here are the 3 "passenger" pilots as revealed to me by Steve Hoxie about a year ago. I will give examples from Withers Vol 7. P 471 shows 5843 with straight edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 484 shows these same style doors on 5852 in the open position. P 472 shows 5865 and 5871 with rounded edge sliding doors in the closed position. P 485 shows 5854 with the swinging clamshell doors in the closed position. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:36:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/25/04 Perhaps they are going to market them w/ other road names? John Liebeskind -------------------------------1080308177 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Perhaps they are going to market them w/ other road names?
John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080308177-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:00:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I was wondering if any additional information has surfaced since Rick Tipton's article on Pennsy Covered Hopper lettering in the Keystone regarding "Return to Kenny Pa." Rick's article doesn't list the commodity carried by those assigned hoppers, and now that i have the Kadee car I want to weather it appropriately. Kenny Pa was on the Mohangehla. Division if that helps. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 07:34:37 -0800

Members of = the PRRT&HS

 

I apologize = in advance for the use of bandwidth, but I desperately need to ask for your = assistance.

 

The = Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society has sustained a significant decrease = in renewals this calendar year. It is very possible that placement of the = renewal form in the autumn issue of The = Keystone may have been responsible for some folks waiting for the traditional = winter mailing of renewal forms.  = For those folks, that cannot find their renewal form, you may renew today at the Society's e-Store at: http://club-e-st= ores.com/prr/prrths_store.html or send a $38.00 check payable to the PRRT&HS, to The Stanleys, 558 Summit Drive, Lewistown, PA = 17044-1252. Make sure it's annotated for 2004 renewal and includes your membership number, if you know = it.

 

However, = there are also some folks within the Society that strongly believe the appearance of = The Keystone Modeler is directly responsible for = this decline in renewals.  The = decline is so significant that it threatens the fiscal stability of the same = Society that listened to your pleas and brought you TKM (as of March 24th = there are 669 members that have not renewed).  And this all without a dues increase or subscribers fee, no = less.  The PRRT&HS does not = generate a profit.  In fact, the = Society publishes The Keystone and The Keystone Modeler magazines, assists manufacturer activities, does = product reviews, collects and catalogs PRR documents, and is creating a = first-class accessible archive facility in which to conduct research, entirely = supported by the members' resources.

 

Although the = jury is out on a complete correlation between non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that have failed to renew as = members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe to TKM= .  There is also no doubt that = should these folks not renew, it will directly threaten TKM, = The Keystone, and other Society offerings, as the = Society must regroup to remain solvent.

 

For those of = you that simply forgot to renew, or were waiting for your renewal form, please = renew today.  For those that did not renew = and were not planning to, please reconsider.  Your membership dues directly support all of the activities and = products from which you benefit, only one of which is our (still) free modeling magazine.

 

We may have = brought about our own demise, from the simple belief that we should supply this = modeling resource at no cost to you, our readers.  = I hope you can prove to those that are saying that = TKM is a detriment to the Society that they are = wrong.

 

Elden = Gatwood

Chairman, = Modeling Committee.

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C41347.D8E616A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between=20 > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that=20 > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe=20= > to TKM.=A0There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it=20= > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings,=20= > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of=20 the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point=20 membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in=20 numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there=20= is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing=20 members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to=20 include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of=20= the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming=20 outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM=20 has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are=20= now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that=20 the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying=20 the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying=20= is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be=20 prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a=20 historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in=20 modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the=20 population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the=20 number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only --=20= members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most=20 likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the=20 prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high=20 quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look=20= at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members,=20= but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock=20 it so you need a password to open it. The password would change=20 quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the=20 respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a=20 thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:56:41 -0800 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry; Jerry; I hope you don't mind keeping this discussion open, as you have brought = up a number of important topics, as has Morgan, in his message. I will try = to answer. Comment 1: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between=20 > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that=20 > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also = subscribe=20 > to TKM.=A0 I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of=20 the TKM.=20 Response 1: There are absolutely some that did not renew but subscribed = to TKM. =20 Comment 2: But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. Response 2: This we cannot absolutely determine, because there are so = many that use e-mail addresses that do not contain names, or otherwise = choose that their names remain unknown. It is also true that many subscribers = to TKM were not members of the Society in the past year. There are more = than one factors at work, but it may be hard to separate them. Comment 3: I think there are two factors at work here... Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point=20 membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in=20 numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there = is any correlation with age?=20 Response 3: This we have no way of doing. We suspect that there is no correlation here only because of the nature of the addresses (some are obviously younger folks because of the type of address they use. I = cannot go into more detail on this without giving examples, which I can't do). Comment 4: Were the non-renewals long-standing=20 members or only members for one year on a trial basis? Response 4: Again, I cannot establish a correlation as we do not have = all of their member numbers, just names. Comment 5: ....The Keystone has declined to include -- for the most = part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of the reasons are sound... that it = is subject to quickly becoming outdated.=20 Response 5: Actually, this is the key reason that modeling info did = not make big inroads into the Keystone, and of course, part of the reason = we chose to go digital with TKM. The modeling information can, and is, = updated as new information or corrections need to be incorporated. Comment 6: But the other argument has been "lack of interest".=20 Response 6: Actually, no one ever told me this. I did hear, "this is = the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, not Modeling Society", but those comments were more than overshadowed by those that stated that the modeling magazines were doing a fine job of it, got = many more submittals that the staff at the Keystone ever got, and that the Keystone was meant to be a definitive statement (where possible) of prototype info on the PRR. Modeling is, after all, rather open to interpretation. Our choice to go with TKM was based on our perception = that the PRRT&HS membership wanted something more, more content, more = context, more modeling, more photos, more consistent coverage, bigger photos, = more detail on techniques, more unbiased reviews.....and more modeling information dissemination. Comment 7: The TKM has clearly demonstrated that the interest is = there. So perhaps you are now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to = them for free. Response 7: Those that are watching this set of events transpire are putting a certain spin on this statement. Particularly your latter = point. Comment 8: TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to = say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society.=20 Response 8: Thanks, I am glad you feel that way about TKM. As far as = it being the "savior" of the society, I think there are far better = candidates, some of them individuals who stay behind the scenes. Your opinion of = TKM is what keeps us going. It remains to be seen if we get the kind of = support we need to keep going in this format. If the current membership = non-renewal continues much longer, it will give those unsupportive of our current = "free" provision of TKM the kind of ammunition they need to force a change. = You cannot argue with red ink. Comment 9: I'm not saying the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. = Not at all. What I am saying is that as time moves forward the membership of = the Society will be prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype = from a historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in=20 modeling. Response 9: Having been part of other societies and non-profit = endeavors, I would have to say that the PRRT&HS is extremely well managed. There = are some phenomenally talented and capable folks giving most of their free = time to the PRRT&HS. The fact is that all of the services, The Keystone, = TKM, publications, involvement with manufacturers, and the developing = archives, all come at a cost, and that the Society basically does not generate anything above that needed to maintain itself, at our previous year's membership numbers. We now face a different situation. Comment 10: Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, = but as the population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the=20 number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- = members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most=20 likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the=20 prototypic aspects that supports it. Response 10: No need, you are absolutely correct. I think everyone understands this. I think it is actually way over 90%. Comment 11: TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. Response 11: Basically true, but you yourself know that what you do = (and I mean you, Jerry) bears a cost not borne by others. That very specific = use of your resources has limited your use of those very resources on other aspects of your life. Comment 12: Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we = make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so = high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but = as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password = would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in = the=20 respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a=20 thought! Response 12: These very issues are in discussion now. =20 Morgan's comment 1: "I don't see how the TKM has anything to do with non-renewals. Is there any proof that the addition of TKM is linked to non-renewals?" Response: Yes, there are some folks that did not renew their = memberships, but chose to subscribe to TKM. Those that are watching this situation = have stated that they believe it is a case of, "why buy it when you can get = it for free." For some, this may be right. But this issue may have come = back to bite the entire group. It distresses me greatly. Thanks for your support, all. We very much appreciate it. Elden Gatwood ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:02:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I JOINED the PRRT&HS principally because of TKM. I read it in HTML as PDF is just too unwieldy to me.. Perhaps a password to access might be in order, but quarterly would be a big burden, as the "Keystone" is mailed out over a two week period, as I was told when I inquired about mine, and those whose "Keystone" was delayed in the mail or even lost would be doubly "screwed" as then they could not even access TKM. Oh, and don't put us ex-employees in the grave YET. I'll be 63 tomorrow and hope to be around a while longer. Gregg Mahlkov PRRT&HS #7418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "ELDEN GATWOOD" Cc: Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read > On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > > > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between > > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that > > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe > > to TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it > > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, > > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. > > I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of > the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. > > I think there are two factors at work here... > > 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point > membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in > numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there > is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing > members or only members for one year on a trial basis? > > 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to > include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of > the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming > outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM > has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are > now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. > > TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that > the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying > the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying > is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be > prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a > historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in > modeling. > > Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the > population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the > number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- > members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most > likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the > prototypic aspects that supports it. > > TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high > quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look > at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, > but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? > > Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock > it so you need a password to open it. The password would change > quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the > respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a > thought! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:03:49 +0000 Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:08:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 01:56 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > > I hope you don't mind keeping this discussion open For the benefit of the Society, l consider this appropriate. I'll let you know if it turns otherwise. To aid everyone, everyone should show restraint and only include pertinent portions of quoted posts in your replies. Thank you. ---------------------------------------- Listmaster listmaster@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:13:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:02 PM, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > I JOINED the PRRT&HS principally because of TKM. I read it in HTML as > PDF is > just too unwieldy to me.. Perhaps a password to access might be in > order, > but quarterly would be a big burden, as the "Keystone" is mailed out > over a > two week period, as I was told when I inquired about mine, and those > whose > "Keystone" was delayed in the mail or even lost would be doubly > "screwed" as > then they could not even access TKM. I was proposing that, for instance, the Spring Keystone might have the password for the May, June, and July issues, or something like that. PDF can be relied upon for consistent display. Various web browsers cannot. The HTML format also requires that all of the components (text and images) that make up an issue remain in the same location. With a PDF you have one file...that's it! And I think a password for access to HTML will be more likely to propagate to non-members via mailing lists, forums, and the like. > > Oh, and don't put us ex-employees in the grave YET. I'll be 63 > tomorrow and > hope to be around a while longer. I hope you'll be around for awhile also, but you are certainly one of the "younger" ex-employees. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:12:22 GMT Subject: Fw: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PennsyRRfan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-ContentStamp: 12:6:2251410402 On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe > to TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:12:22 GMT Subject: Fw: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PennsyRRfan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-ContentStamp: 12:6:2251410402 On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe > to TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only -- members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:16:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:03 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I see no reason to provide TKM for free. The information far exceeds > what is available in even the best modeling magazines and is very > specifc to our needs. I would gladly subscribe to it. The society > could also request TKM donations to generate additional revenue. I > think a price of $20.00 per year in addition to the regular society > membership would be a very fair amount to pay for the quality of > material contained in the publication. I personally do not think it should be a separate membership item. Besides, that makes even more overhead for the national officers in order to track such things. What if we did this... 1) Locate the full issues of the TKM on the web behind a password protected site. "Try" the honor system and only change the password once a year. Urge members not to share it. Change it as of the calendar you so as to coincide with renewals. 2) Publish an abridged TKM publicly. Each article would cut off after the first 1-2 pages, then have a link to a membership application. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:21:29 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Thread-Index: AcQTWbAkqvVrcShsRuqDof8dnWHU0QADFptw From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "Jerry Britton" , "ELDEN GATWOOD" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 19:21:30.0355 (UTC) FILETIME=[8ABF0430:01C41367] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It seems that there is an assumption that publication of the TKM on line = has resulted in a decrease in membership. Is there at all a valid = method for testing this premise? I can think of other reasons for the decline - meeting in Harrisburg so = often becomes rather stale - hopefully some rejuvenation will occur with = the convention in Cincinnati this year. =20 I think the age issue mentioned below is critical for the model railroad = hobby in general. The NMRA seems to be concerned about its declining = membership, and in another RR historical society in which I belong, the = average membership age is 58. The railroads were much more a part of our culture when we were young = then now, and this "aging" of the hobby may reflect this. A lot of young = people today focus their inside the house activities on the computer, as = opposed to that original Lionel or American Flyer train set. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 11:36 AM To: ELDEN GATWOOD Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 10:34 AM, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between=20 > non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that=20 > have failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe = > to TKM.=A0There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it = > will directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, = > as the Society must regroup to remain solvent. I imagine there will be "some" who do not renew due to the content of=20 the TKM. But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. I think there are two factors at work here... 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point=20 membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in=20 numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there=20 is any correlation with age? Were the non-renewals long-standing=20 members or only members for one year on a trial basis? 2) For years the editorial staff of The Keystone has declined to=20 include -- for the most part -- modeling info in the magazine. Part of=20 the reasons are sound... that it is subject to quickly becoming=20 outdated. But the other argument has been "lack of interest". The TKM=20 has clearly demonstrated that the interest is there. So perhaps you are=20 now giving people a) what they want and b) giving it to them for free. TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that=20 the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. I'm not saying=20 the Society is in trouble, or mismanaged. Not at all. What I am saying=20 is that as time moves forward the membership of the Society will be=20 prone to decrease in those interested in the prototype from a=20 historical perspective only and will increase in those interested in=20 modeling. Please excuse the apparent bluntness of this statement, but as the=20 population of ex-PRR employee members of the Society pass on, the=20 number of traditional -- that is, prototype-historical interest only --=20 members of the Society decreases. Those that are joining now are most=20 likely -- 90% I'd bet -- interested in modeling, as well as the=20 prototypic aspects that supports it. TKM has not cost in terms of printing and mailing. It is super high=20 quality stuff and should continue to be produced. Maybe we need to look=20 at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members,=20 but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock=20 it so you need a password to open it. The password would change=20 quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the=20 respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a=20 thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:29:30 -0500 RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read

Since it is a SERVICE of the PRRT&HS, I don't = feel a separate fee (that non-members could pay) should be = imposed.  I believe only PRRT&HS should be able to access = it!

Chris Chany

------_=_NextPart_001_01C41368.A931B470-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "PennsyRRfan" Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:28:17 GMT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PennsyRRfan Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:16:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: X-ContentStamp: 8:4:765465571 X-MAIL-INFO:10297d29bd3cb849a5a921a5497549bd3899419958311175b971e1b975dd053df53db93df57511d89da1d828d8d94859c888e9a988c81cd9f1596808f84df16c4d689c8c8c8d68258c0d3c896c252c6d5899ed993531bccdb99d28751111 On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:03 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I see no reason to provide TKM for free. The information far exceeds > what is available in even the best modeling magazines and is very > specifc to our needs. I would gladly subscribe to it. The society > could also request TKM donations to generate additional revenue. I > think a price of $20.00 per year in addition to the regular society > membership would be a very fair amount to pay for the quality of > material contained in the publication. I personally do not think it should be a separate membership item. Besides, that makes even more overhead for the national officers in order to track such things. What if we did this... 1) Locate the full issues of the TKM on the web behind a password protected site. "Try" the honor system and only change the password once a year. Urge members not to share it. Change it as of the calendar you so as to coincide with renewals. 2) Publish an abridged TKM publicly. Each article would cut off after the first 1-2 pages, then have a link to a membership application. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - NetZero HiSpeed! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month -visit www.netzero.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:31:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:21 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > It seems that there is an assumption that publication of the TKM on > line has resulted in a decrease in membership. Is there at all a > valid method for testing this premise? I think what Elden was trying to express is that "some" people are thinking that free access to TKM is part of the reason for the decrease. This cannot be substantiated. But as a leader in the TKM effort, Elden is being proactively defensive to protect the future of TKM. If the leadership of the Society feels TKM is causing the reduction, they will kill TKM. > > I can think of other reasons for the decline - meeting in Harrisburg > so often becomes rather stale - hopefully some rejuvenation will occur > with the convention in Cincinnati this year. We'll know in a month, but I think you are wrong. I (personally) am expecting a lower than normal turnout in Cincinnati. I think a lot of people won't go due to the distance. Remember, probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the membership is within 2 hours of Philadelphia! Of the locals that I usually see at the conventions, more than half are not going this year. I am very saddened by that, but I have no control over it. I sincerely hope that attendance is "good enough", as I would love to see the Society give Chicago a try. But if Cincy fails, it ain't gonna happen! (Again, my opinion!) Camp Hill is the default site for many reasons -- lacks the "big city" costs, good transportation access, good facility, very close (short drive) for over half of the membership. Side note: I am doing the layout tours for 2005 and there will be SEVERAL new layouts... and we are considering something totally new, but more on that later! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:33:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:51:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 02:33 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > So that in 2 years when you get a mumble model and want to do what TKM > suggests you must also find the right unrelated keystone and get the > password. Ugh. > > I do understand the problem you're trying to solve, and I agree but I > don't like this answer. My later response suggested having a password protected site, with the password for the entire site changing once a year... if the honor system works. Otherwise, maybe quarterly. That, then, would get you into the entire archive. Otherwise, you would need to maintain a password protected list of prior "file" passwords... or the more involved approach of changing all of the file passwords periodically, which I am not recommending. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:58:15 -0500 A very valid concern. I also suspect we're not reaching some members = with our appeals (other than the renewal form in the fall issue of The = Keystone) as I think there are a lot of older members who don't have = e-mail and who are not on line. Hard to imagine, but true. Sounds like = we need another renewal form in The Keystone. As a non-profit group, = how low can we get postage on a direct mailing to these folks? 669 = people is a lot of people. Hard to imagine they feel TKM is all they = need. That's only the tip of the iceberg in terms of membership = benefits! Keep us posted and let us know how we can help. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Prr-Modeling@yahoogroups.com' ; Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Members of the PRRT&HS =20 I apologize in advance for the use of bandwidth, but I desperately = need to ask for your assistance. =20 The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society has sustained = a significant decrease in renewals this calendar year. It is very = possible that placement of the renewal form in the autumn issue of The = Keystone may have been responsible for some folks waiting for the = traditional winter mailing of renewal forms. For those folks, that = cannot find their renewal form, you may renew today at the Society's = e-Store at: http://club-e-stores.com/prr/prrths_store.html or send a = $38.00 check payable to the PRRT&HS, to The Stanleys, 558 Summit Drive, = Lewistown, PA 17044-1252. Make sure it's annotated for 2004 renewal and = includes your membership number, if you know it. =20 However, there are also some folks within the Society that strongly = believe the appearance of The Keystone Modeler is directly responsible = for this decline in renewals. The decline is so significant that it = threatens the fiscal stability of the same Society that listened to your = pleas and brought you TKM (as of March 24th there are 669 members that = have not renewed). And this all without a dues increase or subscribers = fee, no less. The PRRT&HS does not generate a profit. In fact, the = Society publishes The Keystone and The Keystone Modeler magazines, = assists manufacturer activities, does product reviews, collects and = catalogs PRR documents, and is creating a first-class accessible archive = facility in which to conduct research, entirely supported by the = members' resources.=20 =20 Although the jury is out on a complete correlation between = non-renewals and TKM subscribers, there are some folks we know that have = failed to renew as members of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe to = TKM. There is also no doubt that should these folks not renew, it will = directly threaten TKM, The Keystone, and other Society offerings, as the = Society must regroup to remain solvent. =20 For those of you that simply forgot to renew, or were waiting for your = renewal form, please renew today. For those that did not renew and were = not planning to, please reconsider. Your membership dues directly = support all of the activities and products from which you benefit, only = one of which is our (still) free modeling magazine. =20 We may have brought about our own demise, from the simple belief that = we should supply this modeling resource at no cost to you, our readers. = I hope you can prove to those that are saying that TKM is a detriment to = the Society that they are wrong. =20 Elden Gatwood Chairman, Modeling Committee. =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C41342.C4107A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
A very valid concern.  I also suspect we're = not=20 reaching some members with our appeals (other than the renewal form in = the fall=20 issue of The Keystone) as I think there are a lot of older members who = don't=20 have e-mail and who are not on line.  Hard to imagine, but = true. =20 Sounds like we need another renewal form in The Keystone.  As a = non-profit=20 group, how low can we get postage on a direct mailing to these = folks?  669=20 people is a lot of people.  Hard to imagine they feel TKM is all = they=20 need.  That's only the tip of the iceberg in terms of membership=20 benefits!
 
Keep us posted and let us know how we can=20 help.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 = 10:34=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS = help;=20 important; please read

Members of the=20 PRRT&HS

 

I apologize in advance for = the use of=20 bandwidth, but I desperately need to ask for your=20 assistance.

 

The Pennsylvania Railroad = Technical &=20 Historical Society has sustained a significant decrease in renewals = this=20 calendar year. It is very possible that placement of the renewal form = in the=20 autumn issue of The=20 Keystone may have been responsible for some folks waiting = for the=20 traditional winter mailing of renewal forms.  For those folks, that cannot = find=20 their renewal form, you may renew today at the Society's e-Store at: = http://club-e-sto= res.com/prr/prrths_store.html=20 or send a $38.00 check payable to the PRRT&HS, to The Stanleys,=20 558 Summit = Drive, Lewistown, PA 17044-1252. Make sure it's annotated for = 2004 renewal=20 and includes your membership number, if you know = it.

 

However, there are also some = folks within=20 the Society that strongly believe the appearance of The Keystone = Modeler is directly responsible for this decline in = renewals.  The decline is so = significant that it=20 threatens the fiscal stability of the same Society that listened to = your pleas=20 and brought you TKM (as of March 24th there are 669 members = that=20 have not renewed).  And = this all=20 without a dues increase or subscribers fee, no less.  The PRRT&HS does not = generate a=20 profit.  In fact, the = Society=20 publishes The=20 Keystone and The Keystone = Modeler magazines, assists manufacturer activities, does = product=20 reviews, collects and catalogs PRR documents, and is creating a = first-class=20 accessible archive facility in which to conduct research, entirely = supported=20 by the members' resources.

 

Although the jury is out on a = complete=20 correlation between non-renewals and TKM=20 subscribers, there are some folks we know that have failed to renew as = members=20 of the PRRT&HS, and who also subscribe to TKM.  There is also no doubt that = should=20 these folks not renew, it will directly threaten TKM, The=20 Keystone, and other Society offerings, as the Society must = regroup=20 to remain solvent.

 

For those of you that simply = forgot to=20 renew, or were waiting for your renewal form, please renew today.  For those that did not renew = and were=20 not planning to, please reconsider. =20 Your membership dues directly support all of the activities and = products from which you benefit, only one of which is our (still) free = modeling magazine.

 

We may have brought about our = own demise,=20 from the simple belief that we should supply this modeling resource at = no cost=20 to you, our readers.  I = hope you=20 can prove to those that are saying that = TKM is a=20 detriment to the Society that they are = wrong.

 

Elden=20 Gatwood

Chairman, Modeling=20 Committee.

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C41342.C4107A40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:10:46 -0500
A=20 direct mailing as Bill suggests is the way to go.  If 7 people = rejoin the=20 postage is covered at $0.37.
 
 
Chris=20 Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C4136E.6C8089B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:13:57 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: New Bowser N8s Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: threebutchers@msn.com writes: > > I have heard a few good things about these cars, does anyone know if they have brake details under them or not? > I dont model HO...but the Feb MR Bowser ad states "Cal Scale AB Brakes - complete underbody detail" > Brian All, I had a call from my good friend Mark Kerrlick last night and he is going to fire off a short opinion of the Bowser N8 cabin after the weekend as he picked up three just yesterday on the way to the East Coast Model Show. But here are some thoughts... againI have not seen them it is just some things we talked about. Firt this in NOT A BUILD_UP cabin car, it is a kit! The underframe is a set of Cal Scale airbrake parts with some brass wire and a diagram... He said the did correct the handrail/grab irons... The cuppola is a separte part but fits nicely... The running boards were nicely done and are out of Delrin type plastic. The windows are molded to fit into the opens nearly flush... The two vertical anti-collision post are modled solid... read as not the Channels that they should be. THe trucks are just standrd freight trucks... What he beleives could have been better was the lettering. I will leave the rest to Mark whne he come back... Retail is $30.00 for the kit... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:30:33 -0500 Elden & Group, As I understand it from a friend, the NYO&W Society is large and growing = and doing well. Not sure how big they are compared with us. They pay = homage to a much, much smaller railroad that visited virtually no = population centers that went under in 1957, but to all accounts their = society continues to grow. Perhaps we should check their website and = communicate with them. As I understand it they're a really nice bunch = who would probably be willing to give us some ideas. Even if some of us = joined (are some of us already members?) we could find out what they're = doing and how. Just one more idea. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C41347.475D0220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Elden & Group,
 
As I understand it from a friend, the NYO&W = Society is=20 large and growing and doing well.  Not sure how big they are = compared with=20 us.  They pay homage to a much, much smaller railroad that visited=20 virtually no population centers that went under in 1957, but to all = accounts=20 their society continues to grow.  Perhaps we should check their = website and=20 communicate with them.  As I understand it they're a really nice = bunch who=20 would probably be willing to give us some ideas.  Even if some of = us joined=20 (are some of us already members?) we could find out what they're doing = and=20 how.
 
Just one more idea.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C41347.475D0220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:31:09 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 20:40:52.0628 (UTC) FILETIME=[A1483540:01C41372] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Okay Elden and Jerry Now that my name came up. Why is TKM available to non-members of PRRTHS? Ditto for any and all other pubs, whether in print or digital. Everything has a cost involved with it, so payment must be made. The "free" stuff should be on PRRTHS as for "guests", just like most other groups. And only paid members of PRRTHS should have access to the pubs. Your membership number with added digits or scrambled should work for access. Example: My # is 1204. So the access could be 4210 or 120498 or something like that. Or we could just "register" with passwords. The main point is to eliminate the free TKM. Make them pay. How about if they refuse to join PRRTHS and still want TKM, have them pay the same $38.00? That ought to change their minds. LOL ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: "'Jerry Britton'" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, 26 March, 2004 12:56 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Jerry; I hope you don't mind keeping this discussion open, as you have brought up a number of important topics, as has Morgan, in his message. I will try to answer. Comment 2: But I cannot imagine these numbers are significant. Response 2: This we cannot absolutely determine, because there are so many that use e-mail addresses that do not contain names, or otherwise choose that their names remain unknown. It is also true that many subscribers to TKM were not members of the Society in the past year. There are more than one factors at work, but it may be hard to separate them. MB: This is what I see as part of the problem. The determination is vague. Comment 8: TKM is an excellent publication. In fact, I'll go so far to say that the content of TKM may be the "savior" of the Society. Response 8: Thanks, I am glad you feel that way about TKM. As far as it being the "savior" of the society, I think there are far better candidates, some of them individuals who stay behind the scenes. Your opinion of TKM is what keeps us going. It remains to be seen if we get the kind of support we need to keep going in this format. If the current membership non-renewal continues much longer, it will give those unsupportive of our current "free" provision of TKM the kind of ammunition they need to force a change. You cannot argue with red ink. MB: Total agreement. The TKM was long overdue. Even if it had been in print form (before digital technology has been perfected). Response 9: Having been part of other societies and non-profit endeavors, I would have to say that the PRRT&HS is extremely well managed. MB: Agreed again. I've seen how some other "groups" have been miss managed. Comment 12: Maybe we need to look at the distribution channel. Can we make it available only to members, but not create a management overhead so high that it isn't worth it? Maybe you continue to publish it online...but as a PDF only. And lock it so you need a password to open it. The password would change quarterly for new issues, and the password would be printed in the respective quarterly issue of The Keystone. I don't know...just a thought! Response 12: These very issues are in discussion now. MB: Again agreed. See what I wrote above. Morgan's comment 1: "I don't see how the TKM has anything to do with non-renewals. Is there any proof that the addition of TKM is linked to non-renewals?" Response: Yes, there are some folks that did not renew their memberships, but chose to subscribe to TKM. Those that are watching this situation have stated that they believe it is a case of, "why buy it when you can get it for free." For some, this may be right. But this issue may have come back to bite the entire group. It distresses me greatly. MB: Okay, so they take without payment. That's theft. Or so I think. Back to the discussions above. But - continue to make the TKM available in both formats. And as mentioned, one needs a password. And also stated elsewhere - not in the Keystone. The snail mail is too slow. I'm far from a computer expert, but there are so many web sites out there now that require registration and ID's and Passwords, that it can't be that much trouble. Is it? Jerry? Thanks for letting me have this input. FYI I am 65 yrs old. And like others, intend to be around for another 25 to 30 years. LOL Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 President, Penn Texas Chapter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:49:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 03:31 PM, PennsyNut wrote: > The main point is to eliminate the free TKM. Make them pay. How > about if > they refuse to join PRRTHS and still want TKM, have them pay the same > $38.00? That ought to change their minds. We have yet to have any MEMBERS indicate their desire to keep TKM a free publication... Anyone? If we are in agreement to a) keep TKM and to b) lock up TKM, then all we really need to discuss is the HOW? For those in the know, whoever you are, does the Society web site have the ability to have "secure realms", as they are called? Are there disk space limitations (within reason)? I don't know if the Society has its own server (doubtful), uses an ISP's server, uses a member's business server, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:00:10 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: TKM is only free because of volunteer labor...thanks guys. I for one would be happy to pay for a subscription to TKM much as I "pay" for online Medical information sites I use in my profession. Jim McDaniel 2 cents from Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rawil Ismail" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:58:52 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To continue with William Bigler's idea, the NYO&W Society website does have some "Members Only" articles online. To access them, a member contacts the Society's Membership Director and is given a username and password, which changes periodically. Society contact info is at: http://www.nyow.org/contacts.html Pete Ismail Colorado Springs, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" As I understand it from a friend, the NYO&W Society is large and growing and doing well. Not sure how big they are compared with us. They pay homage to a much, much smaller railroad that visited virtually no population centers that went under in 1957, but to all accounts their society continues to grow. Perhaps we should check their website and communicate with them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:53:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal PRRT&HS Non Renewal Problem I not sure how I received my renewal notice. However, regarding the PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included with a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine. That, folks, in my opinion, ain't smart!!! It seems to me that the best way to notify someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill. Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my renewal notice. I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as current membership! So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I asked the important person, the one who pays the bills. Sure enough, she reported that it was paid in October. Just lucky I guess. As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked at it. I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer screen and then, if I really like something, printing it. I am a modeler and do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF". My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large HO scale model railroad. I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Keystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next year or so. That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud message, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise very confused!!! Wise up people, send separate renewal notices. So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar. That's a big difference from not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop! Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now the society is paying the price! Oh, one more thought, I know you're trying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like every other organization that I belong to does?! Bob Martin PRRT&HS #5911 Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" PRRT&HS N= on Renewal Problem

I not sure how I received my renewal notice.  However, regarding th= e PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included w= ith a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine.  That, folks, in= my opinion, ain't smart!!!  It seems to me that the best way to notify= someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill= .  Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my re= newal notice.  I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly= renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as curre= nt membership!  So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I as= ked the important person, the one who pays the bills.  Sure enough, she= reported that it was paid in October.  Just lucky I guess.

As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked=20= at it.  I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer scree= n and then, if I really like something, printing it.  I am a modeler an= d do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF".=20=  My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large=20= HO scale model railroad.  I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Ke= ystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next ye= ar or so.

That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud m= essage, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise=20= very confused!!!  Wise up people, send separate renewal notices.  = So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar.  That's a big difference f= rom not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop!=20

Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now=20= the society is paying the price!  Oh, one more thought, I know you're t= rying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent= out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like ev= ery other organization that I belong to does?!

Bob Martin
PRRT&HS #5911
Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:53:11 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal PRRT&HS Non Renewal Problem I not sure how I received my renewal notice. However, regarding the PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included with a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine. That, folks, in my opinion, ain't smart!!! It seems to me that the best way to notify someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill. Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my renewal notice. I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as current membership! So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I asked the important person, the one who pays the bills. Sure enough, she reported that it was paid in October. Just lucky I guess. As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked at it. I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer screen and then, if I really like something, printing it. I am a modeler and do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF". My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large HO scale model railroad. I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Keystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next year or so. That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud message, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise very confused!!! Wise up people, send separate renewal notices. So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar. That's a big difference from not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop! Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now the society is paying the price! Oh, one more thought, I know you're trying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like every other organization that I belong to does?! Bob Martin PRRT&HS #5911 Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" PRRT&HS N= on Renewal Problem

I not sure how I received my renewal notice.  However, regarding th= e PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included w= ith a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine.  That, folks, in= my opinion, ain't smart!!!  It seems to me that the best way to notify= someone of a membership renewal that is soon due is to send a separate bill= .  Like I said, I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my re= newal notice.  I did check my membership card but for reasons of yearly= renewal in the society that piece of cardboard is worthless as far as curre= nt membership!  So, not knowing if my membership had been renewed, I as= ked the important person, the one who pays the bills.  Sure enough, she= reported that it was paid in October.  Just lucky I guess.

As far as "TKM" I'm not interested although I believe I may have looked=20= at it.  I just don't want to spend the time looking at a computer scree= n and then, if I really like something, printing it.  I am a modeler an= d do lean heavily toward PRR but I am not a "prototype rivet counting SPF".=20=  My modeling efforts are channeled to a fairly decent and fairly large=20= HO scale model railroad.  I do thoroughly enjoy most articles in the Ke= ystone and and currently working on an article for publishing in the next ye= ar or so.

That said, it seems to me that 650 plus non renewals is sending a loud m= essage, i.e. maybe they didn't get or didn't see the bill or were otherwise=20= very confused!!!  Wise up people, send separate renewal notices.  = So it costs 40 or 50 cents or even a dollar.  That's a big difference f= rom not collecting from 650 plus people at $35 or $38, whatever, a pop!=20

Bottom line here, is that I believe somebody screwed up royally and now=20= the society is paying the price!  Oh, one more thought, I know you're t= rying to save money but wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent= out an annual membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like ev= ery other organization that I belong to does?!

Bob Martin
PRRT&HS #5911
Member (I think) 2004 --part1_65.256338a0.2d962a77_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:35:23 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: William Ayers > From: Jerry Britton > Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:49:50 -0500 > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read > From: Jerry Britton <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:49:50 -0500
> Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read
From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:15:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations The ? is will you bye it if so then lets STOP the complaining and do it our selves. every model Broadway has come out with I read all your - - - are trere any+++++++. how about saying thank you we have a M1a, M1b, T1, E-7 with train phones I may add. (All with sound and will work with dc or dcc how selfisf can we get? Don't forget the J-1, I'm shure you'll have some kind of BITCH about that too. Broadway I thank you! I can't afford to buy BRASS tha will run like CRAP give the basic's I'll do the rest unlike some other's. PRR-- BOB P. --part1_1eb.1c52fe09.2d963db2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" The ? is will you bye it if so then= lets STOP the complaining and do it our selves. every model Broadway has co= me out with I read all your -  -   - are trere any+++++++.&nb= sp;  how about saying thank you we have a M1a, M1b, T1, E-7 with train=20= phones I may add. (All with sound  and will work with dc or dcc how sel= fisf can we get? Don't forget the J-1, I'm shure you'll have some kind of BI= TCH about that too.
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;     Broadway I thank you!
            &nbs= p; I can't afford to buy BRASS tha will run like CRAP give the basic's I'll=20= do the rest unlike some other's.
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =           PRR-- BOB P. --part1_1eb.1c52fe09.2d963db2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:53:32 -0600 Bob, you may have hit on it. This is the first time since I joined the = society that I paid my dues late. It just suddenly occured to me that I = didn't remember writing a check. Like you, I haven't a clue how I = received any notice this year, if I did. And BTW, I wish people would quit assuming everyone is online. And not = just old people constitute the nonwired group. I also agree with Norm that the TKM is better than any modeling magazine = I have ever seen---don't give it away! My first reaction is that I = would prefer hard copy, but TKM answers one of my objections to = including modeling articles in the hard-copy Keystone: obsolescence. = Being online, it can be updated to reflect changes. Speaking as someone = who has read modeling magazines for 52 years and has less than a dozen = saved---most aren't worth saving after 10 years due to the obsolescence = factor. Several $.02 worth. Bob Zoeller Bob Martin writes:=20 I not sure how I received my renewal notice. However, regarding the = PRRT&HS dues notice, I'm getting the impression that it was included = with a mid to late 2003 issue of the Keystone magazine. ... Like I said, = I haven't got the foggiest idea of how I received my renewal notice. = ...wouldn't you be solving a bunch problems if you sent out an annual = membership card or at least a confirmation of renewal like every other = organization that I belong to does?!=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C41374.6626F620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bob, you may have hit on it.  This = is the=20 first time since I joined the society that I paid my dues late.  It = just=20 suddenly occured to me that I didn't remember writing a check. Like you, = I=20 haven't a clue how I received any notice this year, if I = did.
 
And BTW, I wish people would quit = assuming everyone=20 is online.  And not just old people constitute  the = nonwired=20 group.
 
I also agree with Norm that the TKM is = better than=20 any modeling magazine I have ever seen---don't give it away!  My = first=20 reaction is that I would prefer hard copy, but TKM answers one of my = objections=20 to including modeling articles in the hard-copy Keystone: =20 obsolescence.  Being online, it can be updated to reflect = changes. =20 Speaking as someone who has read modeling magazines for 52 years and has = less=20 than a dozen saved---most aren't worth saving after 10 years due to the=20 obsolescence factor.
 
Several $.02 worth.
 
Bob Zoeller
 
Bob Martin writes: 
I not sure how I = received my=20 renewal notice.  However, regarding the PRRT&HS dues notice, = I'm=20 getting the impression that it was included with a mid to late 2003 = issue of=20 the Keystone magazine. ... Like I said, I haven't got the = foggiest=20 idea of how I received my renewal notice. ...wouldn't you be solving a = bunch=20 problems if you sent out an annual membership card or at least a = confirmation=20 of renewal like every other organization that I belong to does?!=20

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C41374.6626F620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:58:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR Bob P. Evidently you don't know me or what some of us others purpose is. Exactly where did you see us complaining about a Broadway Limited model? I can't remember any. Maybe your meaning of complaining means something different than mine. I have seen plenty of posts pointing out detail problems and suggestions with regards to the models being produced by BLI or any company. I thnk this is a good thing. If it helps a comapny produce better models in the future, so be it. If not, at least we alert other modelers as to what to expect when it comes time to correct the short comings. Again, I say, evidently you don't know me. Do I sit and cry over short comings of a model. Hell No! Like you say you do, I do it myself. Be sure to check out the next TKM and you will see. And by the way, I alerted BLI of this M1b article I am doing, shared a few photos with them and they want to be notified when it becomes available in the TKM. So yes, I do believe our "complaining" as you speak of, has a purpose. As for the upcoming J1. It has already been discussed in several places of the sample model containing a handful of goofs, one rather major one. BLI has been advised of these I am sure from all directions. They have the time to fix the problems. If not, once the model is available to the public, we will be right back here letting everyone know how to correct it, if those modelers so wish to do so. Will I complain? Nope, I just go my marry way and fix it..........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:14:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read My two cents worth. I had sent this to Elwood off list but am now sharing it here. Elwood: Perhaps it is time to make membership in the PRRT&HS a condition of receiving the TKM. This could be done rather simply by 1) requiring a live name and address for each person receiving the e-mail version and 2) requiring the membership number as a password to access TKM on the website. The latter is a simple look-up in a database. The database would need to be maintained as new members are added and expired memberships purged annually. Just a suggestion. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080357280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
My two cents worth.
 
I had sent this to Elwood off list but am now sharing it here.
 
Elwood:

Perhaps it is time to make membership in the PRRT&HS= a condition of receiving the TKM.  This could be done rather simply by= 1) requiring a live name and address for each person receiving the e-mail v= ersion and 2) requiring the membership number as a password to access TKM on= the website.  The latter is a simple look-up in a database.  The=20= database would need to be maintained as new members are added and expired me= mberships purged annually.

Just a suggestion.

Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080357280-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:25:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read In a message dated 3/26/2004 3:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Otherwise, you would need to maintain a password protected list of prior "file" passwords... or the more involved approach of changing all of the file passwords periodically, which I am not recommending. Jerry, If you place a password in the link from the main page-- link takes you to password gateway which then redirects you to the protected pages if you have a proper password. You only need to change one password to protect all the subpages. There is no need to archive passwords as the one password will give you access to a page of links to all the issues of TKM. However, it is important that the pages be setup so that the TKM cannot be bookmarked and thereby by-pass the password requirement. I have passwords to several sites which will permit bookmarking and then you can get around the password. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080357906 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/26/2004 3:06:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pe= nnsyrr.com writes:
Otherwise, you would need to maintain a passwo= rd protected list of
prior "file" passwords... or the more involved appr= oach of changing all
of the file passwords periodically, which I am not=20= recommending.
Jerry, 
 
If you place a password in the link from the main page-- link takes you= to password gateway which then redirects you to the protected pages if you=20= have a proper password. You only need to change one password to protect all=20= the subpages. There is no need to archive passwords as the one password= will give you access to a page of links to all the issues of TKM.  &nb= sp;However, it is important that the pages be setup so that the TKM cannot b= e bookmarked and thereby by-pass the password requirement.  I have pass= words to several sites which will permit bookmarking and then you can get ar= ound the password.
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080357906-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Meyer Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:35:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRTH&S Renewal Ask a PRR Friend Time to beat the bushes. Check with other PRR enthusiasts and ask them if they have joined or renewed. If you're a member of a RR Club spread the word. Ken ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:35:05 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] PRRTH&S Renewal Ask a PRR Friend Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Time to beat the bushes. Check with other PRR enthusiasts and ask them if they have joined or renewed. If you're a member of a RR Club spread the word. Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:37:37 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gentelmen, After observing the transpirations over the last 12 or so hours I can readily agree with many of you that the announcement of the renewal anomoly in the society is something we should all be concerned with. I agree 100% with the members-only access to the TKM. The TKM online is what the 'Snapper' was pre-3/1976 a "Supplement to the Keystone". The society should maintain a database of members that can be updated regularly whereas a person can create an password encripted entity for thier own viewing of the TKM. As one of the "younger" members in the Society, I have never viewed and active PRR livery engine in regular service on the main line, but I do remember the sights, sounds and smells of 1223 under steam at Strasburg and when I was really young and naive the 1361 came to York. The big noisy thing scared me and while at some point I was amazed it was only from a distance. Granted, I grew into it, but i've taken a seed and made a nice ever-growing sappling out of my love and affiction for the PRR, both through history, modeling, and creating where I work. I've made railroading my life, and a part of that is the Pennsy. Unfortunately, there still are those who I won't mention that feel the PRRTHS is a historical society. As modelers we are fighting a one-way barter. For the prototypical modelr they possess information we have yet to know. But, as of yet we have nothing to give back. With the vast plethora of minds we have assembled we must as a whole think of how we can make this benefit all of us not just the modelers. Perhaps an TKM article on prototypical operations based on a certain area, with road names and car types. I'm only making suggestions, or as someone I know says, "I'm only one voise in a sea of many." I agree that we must do something to save our ranks of brothers united in the memory of the PRR. Best regards to all, John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:33:00 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Marvin, the Steel industry was my first thought also. What would need to be delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas? Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] membership renewals Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:08:18 -0500 Gents; The arrival of the TKM is one of, maybe even the second most important = reason that I have stayed with the organization. I am fairly new, going = on 4 years now. I am a Lines West fanatic but even so, the organization = as a whole is well worth it! I do think the TKM should be a paid item by non members and an = extension of member benefits to paid members. I belong to several other similar orgs and each one of them includes = modeling data/info in their issues. In particular, the B&O, N&W, C&O and = AC&Y historical societies. They all sell modeling related items and = kits. When I joined here, I was surprised that the PRRT&HS didn't! I do believe the age factor has a lot to do with it....anybody ever do = a survey of the ages of this group?? Earl Myers Lines West MP94.8 ------=_NextPart_000_0141_01C41397.FD13F6F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gents;
 The arrival of the TKM is one of, = maybe even=20 the second most important reason that I have stayed with the = organization. I am=20 fairly new, going on 4 years now. I am a Lines West fanatic but even so, = the=20 organization as a whole is well worth it!
 I do think the TKM should be a = paid item by=20 non members and an extension of member benefits to paid = members.
 I belong to several other similar = orgs and=20 each one of them includes modeling data/info in their issues. In = particular, the=20 B&O, N&W, C&O and AC&Y historical societies. They all = sell=20 modeling related items and kits. When I joined here, I was surprised = that the=20 PRRT&HS didn't!
 I do believe the age factor has a = lot to do=20 with it....anybody ever do a survey of the ages of this = group??
Earl Myers
Lines West = MP94.8
------=_NextPart_000_0141_01C41397.FD13F6F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 04:48:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read In a message dated 3/26/04 12:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > 1) Age. For years I have been stating online that at some point > membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in > numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there > is any correlation with age? I think most all historical societies will suffer from this eventually. Not only employees but also the number of people who actually saw the railroad in operation declines day by day. They need to take into consideration that how many people who are born say after 1968 will have an interest in the railroad. I know that as a former president of a fallen flag historical society that your "new blood" today comes mostly from modelers. The PRRT&HS has been almost anti modeling and I think that they may be now reaping what they sowed. Todd Horton --part1_ae.53cadb89.2d96a7d3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a me= ssage dated 3/26/04 12:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com wr= ites:


1) Age. For years I have been s= tating online that at some point
membership in the PRRT&HS will decline as ex-employees decline in
numbers. Has anyone looked at the non-renewals and established if there
is any correlation with age?


I think most all historical societies will suffer from this eventually. Not=20= only employees but also the number of people who actually saw the railroad i= n operation declines day by day. They need to take into consideration that h= ow many people who are born say after 1968 will have an interest in the rail= road. I know that as a former president of a fallen flag historical society=20= that your "new blood" today comes mostly from modelers. The PRRT&HS has=20= been almost anti modeling and I think that they may be now reaping what they= sowed. Todd Horton
 --part1_ae.53cadb89.2d96a7d3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 03:55:29 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk Digest - TKM and PRRTHS X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2,9,11,14-16 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: First lets seperate the apples from oranges. The renewal problem has nothing to do with the TKM issue. The PRRTHS is a totally seperate issue in itself. Blamming TKM is not going to solve the Societies problems. First off I think we are loosing site of why TKM was formed in the first place! It was offered free to get people interested in the Society in the first place!! You take it away and you take away the only reason why I would be interested in the Society!! So you will definantly loose my interest in the PRRTHS if it is taken away! You will also loose the potential to get future new subscribers to the PRRTHS! After all. Isn't that the reason the TKM was formed in the first place? The only people blaming TKM are the SOLE people who NEVER wanted it in the first place! Last of all is that charging for TKM is not going to make up for the Societies problems. If they are not delt with and blame put where it belongs. Then both TKM and PRRTHS will sease and be no more! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: shadow@dementia.org, Prr-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:55:58 -0500 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 26, 2004, at 10:25 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > If you place a password in the link from the main page-- link takes=20 > you to password gateway which then redirects you to the protected=20 > pages if you have a proper password. You only need to change one=20 > password to protect all the subpages.=A0There is no need to archive=20 > passwords as the one password will give you access to a page of links=20= > to all the issues of TKM.=A0 =A0However, it is important that the = pages be=20 > setup so that the TKM cannot be bookmarked and thereby by-pass the=20 > password requirement.=A0 I have passwords to several sites which will=20= > permit bookmarking and then you can get around the password. Agreed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:55:06 -0500 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 26, 2004, at 10:14 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Perhaps it is time to make membership in the PRRT&HS a condition of=20 > receiving the TKM.=A0 This could be done rather simply by 1) requiring = a=20 > live name and address for each person receiving the e-mail version and=20= > 2) requiring the membership number as a password to access TKM on the=20= > website.=A0 The latter is a simple look-up in a database.=A0 The = database=20 > would need to be maintained as new members are added and expired=20 > memberships purged annually. Rich: We're thinking alike, but technical implementation may be an=20 issue. That's why last night I asked about who is hosting the=20 Society''s site and if it can support secure realms. They may just have=20= a spot on someone's server and have absolutely no capability to add a=20 security database. I can certainly offer up disk space for TKM on my server... a site that=20= the Society maintains (not me)... including a membership lookup=20 database for access. But until someone checks to see if they can do it=20= on their existing server, there is no need to explore such an option. Most likely they will not be able to support a membership lookup=20 database unless the site resides on a server that they have physical=20 "root" access to. I doubt an ISP would allow them to set up such a=20 system -- at least not without wanting more $$$ for it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:22:37 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-17 From: jeffrey d thomas Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I know that lime is used in some aspects of steel making. I wonder if they could have been getting lime in those covered hoppers? Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:33:00 -0500 "Brian J Carlson" writes: > Marvin, the Steel industry was my first thought also. What would need > to be > delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas? > > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:43:26 -0500 Gary, If you would not have said this, I would have said it for you. It = is truly remarkable how the quality of models have improved in the past = 4-5 years and I attribute it directly to the internet which has opened = up lines of discussion between modelers and manufacturers which did not = previously exist. Keep up the great work!=20 Jerry Breon Birdsboro, PA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary Mittner=20 To: PRRTRAINS@aol.com=20 Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; = prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations PRR Bob P. Evidently you don't know me or what some of us others purpose is. Exactly where did you see us complaining about a Broadway Limited = model? I can't remember any. Maybe your meaning of complaining means = something different than mine. I have seen plenty of posts pointing out detail problems and suggestions with regards to the models being produced by BLI or any company. I thnk this is a good thing. If it helps a comapny produce better models in the future, so be it. If not, at least we = alert other modelers as to what to expect when it comes time to correct the short comings.=20 Again, I say, evidently you don't know me. Do I sit and cry over short comings of a model. Hell No! Like you say you do, I do it = myself. Be sure to check out the next TKM and you will see. And by the way, I alerted BLI of this M1b article I am doing, shared a few photos with them and they want to be notified when it becomes available in the = TKM. So yes, I do believe our "complaining" as you speak of, has a purpose. = As for the upcoming J1. It has already been discussed in several places of the sample model containing a handful of goofs, one rather major one. BLI has been advised of these I am sure from all = directions. They have the time to fix the problems. If not, once the model is available to the public, we will be right back here letting everyone know how to correct it, if those modelers so wish to do so. Will I complain? Nope, I just go my marry way and fix it..........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: = http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: = http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: = http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C413D7.923D3E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Gary,
     If you would not have said this, I would = have said=20 it for you. It is truly remarkable how the quality of models have = improved=20 in the past 4-5 years and I attribute it directly to the internet which = has=20 opened up lines of discussion between modelers and manufacturers which = did not=20 previously exist. Keep up the great work!
Jerry Breon
Birdsboro, PA
----- Original Message -----
Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 = 9:58=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI = E7 Paint=20 Observations

PRR Bob P.

    Evidently you = don't know=20 me or what some of us others purpose is.
Exactly where did you see = us=20 complaining about a Broadway Limited model?
I can't remember any. = Maybe=20 your meaning of complaining means something
different than mine. I = have=20 seen plenty of posts pointing out detail
problems and suggestions = with=20 regards to the models being produced by
BLI or any company. I thnk = this is=20 a good thing. If it helps a comapny
produce better models in the = future, so=20 be it. If not, at least we alert
other modelers as to what to = expect when=20 it comes time to correct the
short comings.
    = Again, I=20 say, evidently you don't know me. Do I sit and cry over
short = comings of a=20 model. Hell No! Like you say you do, I do it myself.
Be sure to = check out=20 the next TKM and you will see. And by the way, I
alerted BLI of = this M1b=20 article I am doing, shared a few photos with
them and they want to = be=20 notified when it becomes available in the TKM.
So yes, I do believe = our=20 "complaining" as you speak of, has a purpose. =
     As=20 for the upcoming J1. It has already been discussed in = several
places of the=20 sample model containing a handful of goofs, one rather
major one. = BLI has=20 been advised of these I am sure from all directions.
They have the = time to=20 fix the problems. If not, once the model is
available to the = public, we=20 will be right back here letting everyone
know how to correct = it,  if=20 those modelers so wish to do so. Will I
complain? Nope, I just go = my marry=20 way and fix it..........Gary





Come visit my PRR=20 Pages:  Photos, Models, Historical Items and =20 Art
Work!

PRR K4s Loco Pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/= film/prrpics/

PRR=20 G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.:

http:/= /www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html

and......<= BR>
PRR=20 Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models:

http://www.= angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


----------------= -------------------------------------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C413D7.923D3E00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 09:03:38 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:53:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2004 15:53:14.0474 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D08A4A0:01C41413] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? FYI- I am not interested in this item but it may be of interest to others on the list. CAST METAL PENNSY STEAM ENGINE SHELLW/BRASS Item number: 3184438640 I asked the seller a question about length and this is the reply. The shell is 6.1" from the smoke box front to the cab sidewall. By the way the smokebox front is a brass casting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184438640 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:53:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2004 15:53:14.0474 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D08A4A0:01C41413] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? FYI- I am not interested in this item but it may be of interest to others on the list. CAST METAL PENNSY STEAM ENGINE SHELLW/BRASS Item number: 3184438640 I asked the seller a question about length and this is the reply. The shell is 6.1" from the smoke box front to the cab sidewall. By the way the smokebox front is a brass casting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184438640 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Membership Renewals Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 11:59:29 -0500 After sleeping on our renewal problem, I wonder whether it might not be = simpler than we're making it. I woke up this morning with the horrible = thought that I might be one of the delinquent folks - I remembered = renewing through the e-store, but it was quite a long time ago - was it = for '03 or '04? Fortunately I saved the confirmation e-mail notice and = finally found it - I'm good for '04. The notice in the fall Keystone got us a bunch of renewals, but = certainly not nearly all or enough. Did we send a second notice/flyer = in the winter Keystone? See the problem? I honestly don't remember = when/whether I got the notices or even when/whether I renewed without = looking it up. So, maybe we need to send notices in two or three successive Keystones, = and at some point send direct mailings/bills to those still delinquent. = I suspect that some are just busy and forgot or missed or misplaced the = notice. =20 I'm beginning to think the problem may have very little to do with TKM. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C413F2.F55F66A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
After sleeping on our renewal problem, I wonder = whether it=20 might not be simpler than we're making it.  I woke up this morning = with the=20 horrible thought that I might be one of the delinquent folks - I = remembered=20 renewing through the e-store, but it was quite a long time ago - was it = for '03=20 or '04?  Fortunately I saved the confirmation e-mail notice and = finally=20 found it - I'm good for '04.
 
The notice in the fall Keystone got us a bunch = of=20 renewals, but certainly not nearly all or enough.  Did we send a = second=20 notice/flyer in the winter Keystone?  See the problem?  I = honestly=20 don't remember when/whether I got the notices or even when/whether I = renewed=20 without looking it up.
 
So, maybe we need to send notices in two or = three=20 successive Keystones, and at some point send direct mailings/bills to = those=20 still delinquent.  I suspect that some are just busy and forgot or = missed=20 or misplaced the notice. 
 
I'm beginning to think the problem may have very = little to=20 do with TKM.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C413F2.F55F66A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers Meet Part Deaux Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 14:59:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, Day 2 at the Railroad Prototype Modelers Meet. More clinics going on = today I have including some of the weathering presenter's models in this photo. = with the final one being a weathering clinic I am looking forward to seeing. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/RPM_Meet.jpg =20 I have found that I really like this meet. It is very low key with the emphasis being showing or your models and sharing how you completed it. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:43:40 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2004 22:44:43.0374 (UTC) FILETIME=[18C3D0E0:01C4144D] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hello All First, my comment on TKM may have been mistaken. At this time, TKM is free, and open on the PRRTHS web site. If we can "fix" the PRRTHS site so that a password is required, then my idea holds true. If we make the TKM a pay to see, then, that's what I meant about charging $38.00 a year to access the TKM. But I am not a computer expert. I don't know how feasible either is. I am just throwing out some ideas. Personally, being a very frugal person, I would like to keep the TKM free and have a password to access it. Just as long as I stay a paid up PRRTHS member. But on the other hand, I have no objection to sending in an extra donation to the PRRTHS to help keep it solvent. 669 non-renewals is not a good thing. And I assume (I know, be carefull here) that the Society needs all the financial help it can get. (669 × $38 = $25,422) That's a chunk of money. More than a lot of vehicles on the market. (Sorry, I just had to say that. LOL ) Jerry said > We have yet to have any MEMBERS indicate their desire to keep TKM a free publication... Anyone? > If we are in agreement to a) keep TKM and to b) lock up TKM, then all we really need to discuss is the HOW? MB: As I said above, I do want it free. But, I also think some donations are in order. For those who download the TKM religiously and use it daily, etc. should be glad to send in a donation. Jerry said > For those in the know, whoever you are, does the Society web site have the ability to have "secure realms", as they are called? Are there disk space limitations (within reason)? I don't know if the Society has its own server (doubtful), uses an ISP's server, uses a member's business server, etc. MB: This is where the computer experts come in. I know of many web sites where they are partial unsecure until you "sign in". Is this feasible for the PRRTHS? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:59:07 -0600 Joe, I agree very much with all your other statements. The following = one may also be true, but be patient :-). It has taken this long to get = any significant coverage of a locomotive built after 1928, steam or = diesel. The all F-unit issue is coming now. T1s and Fs within a year. = Can J's, Q's, E's, other first generation, and second generation be far = behind?=20 I believe that the lack of post-WWII motive power coverage, not lack of = modeling articles, is what I see significantly different between our = great historical society and those of other railroads societies = publications. That appears to be changing. But I hope I don't have to = mention that the Keystone is dependent on authors. The same is true of = TKM. I am grateful for the contributions of all the authors over the = last 30 years or so I have been reading the Keystone and now the TKM. Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Witcofsky=20 It is possible that the decline in membership co-incides with the = content of recent Keystones, which IMHO has been less appealing than in = the past. FWIW, the recent issue contained an extensively researched = dissertation on the T1. I did not read it because I'm not into steam. = More recent PRR i.e. 1960 -1968 which correlates to when I rode PRR = passenger trains, observed PRR freight and yard trains, and eventually = hired into engine service is generally not covered. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4141C.D13A1160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Joe, I agree very much with all your = other=20 statements.  The following one may also be true, but be patient = :-). =20 It has taken this long to get any significant coverage of a locomotive = built=20 after 1928, steam or diesel.  The all F-unit issue is coming = now.  T1s=20 and Fs within a year. Can J's, Q's, E's, other first generation, and = second=20 generation be far behind?
 
I believe that the lack of post-WWII = motive power=20 coverage, not lack of modeling articles, is what I see significantly = different=20 between our great historical society and those of other railroads = societies=20 publications.  That appears to be changing.  But I hope I = don't=20 have to mention that the Keystone is dependent on authors.  The = same is=20 true of TKM.  I am grateful for the contributions of all the = authors over=20 the last 30 years or so I have been reading the Keystone and now the=20 TKM.
 
Bob Zoeller
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Joe=20 Witcofsky
It is possible that the = decline in=20 membership co-incides with the content of recent Keystones, which IMHO = has=20 been less appealing than in the past. FWIW, the recent issue contained = an=20 extensively researched dissertation on the T1. I did not read it = because I=92m=20 not into steam. More recent PRR i.e. 1960 -1968 which correlates to = when I=20 rode PRR passenger trains, observed PRR freight and yard trains, and=20 eventually hired into engine service is generally not covered.=20
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C4141C.D13A1160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 18:47:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Covered Hoppers Return to Kenny Pa. In a message dated 3/27/2004 12:46:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, brian@net.bluemoon.net writes: Marvin, the Steel industry was my first thought also. What would need to be delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas? Considering the location of Kenny, one must also consider the Hercules chemical facilities, and GM's Fisher body plant. Don't forget these are empties being returned to Kenny, so we need to look at the commodities being shipped out not received. Steel by-products, chemical products etc. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080431246 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/27/2004 12:46:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, brian@n= et.bluemoon.net writes:
Marvin, the Steel industry was my first though= t also. What would need to be
delivered in covered hoppers/ Any Ideas?
Considering the location of Kenny, one must also consider the Hercules=20= chemical facilities, and GM's Fisher body plant.  Don't forget these ar= e empties being returned to Kenny, so we need to look at the commodities bei= ng shipped out not received.  Steel by-products, chemical products etc.=
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080431246-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:24:39 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: After thinking about it for awhile, I think going back to direct mailing renewals might be a better idea. I, like many others missed the renewal form in the Keystone, and just renewed this month through E-stores. Is this the first time renewal forms have been in the magazine? Since I have been in the society since the mid 1990's I think all others have been direct mailing. Since TKM has only been around for a few months, I have a hard time imagining that people would drop a great historical magazine, and just take a free modeling supplement. Correlating TKM to a membership drop seems a stretch at best and downright reactionary at worst. I also agree with many others in making TKM available to only those in the society, whether through a password protected or some other means. Like some others have said, offer a free issue of TKM to the public to get them interested, maybe giving free access to one issue every few years. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:58:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! From: Jamie Bothwell In-Reply-To: <1FFBE472-7F67-11D8-A137-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> Message-Id: <39371A82-806C-11D8-A5E1-000393A994E0@verizon.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [151.197.214.230] at Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:57:28 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 03:49 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > We have yet to have any MEMBERS indicate their desire to keep TKM a > free publication... Anyone? Jerry, Yes. I would like to see the TKM remain a free publication. Normally I'm just a cheap SOB, but that's not the case here. I have been a Society member since 1986, and I have no plans of dropping my Society membership. For the past several years I have included an extra check in my renewal to help the Archives. A scan of the Discussion Web will reveal that I offered to add to that check to help the TKM too, but I'll go on record as saying that I think it is great that the mighty PRR, through it's Historical Society, is willing to help, free of charge, anyone who desires a more accurate rendition of the PRR, be it one freight car that came through in interchange, or an entire layout. (How's that for a run-on sentence!) If the powers that be choose to make TKM a subscription thing I'll pay. It's too good to loose, but I think it would be a bonus if it could stay free. Would it be beneficial to contact the members who have not renewed and ask why they haven't reupped? As for the Convention, I'm betting the turnout is low, but I'm planning to drive all the way to Cincinnati form Bethlehem, PA! Jamie Bothwell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Craig Williams" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:03:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <39371A82-806C-11D8-A5E1-000393A994E0@verizon.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I really like TKM and all the other information provided free on the web. I am a member of the PRRT&HS and pay my dues every year with the understanding that I'm going to be getting some issues (however many I don't care) of the best train publication in the world. I can't imagine why everyone with even a passing interest in the PRR doesn't want to become a member just for the quality of the Keystone alone. I like TKM because it's all about modeling. I look to the printed Keystone to provide me with prototype information for the most part. TKM fills the void as it relates to modeling in a way I think is great. If the PRRT&HS needs a couple of extra bucks from me to keep TKM going I'll be happy to pony up. After all, the people who give all these great tools can't always do it for free. I'm afraid if you try to make access to complex you'll end up with people downloading the information and sending it on to their buddies who won't pay. I really need to keep a copy on my computer because I might want to print the information or refer to it at a later date and don't want to trust to my being able to remember the url. Therefore, I'd suggest at least trying to appeal to the membership that's interested in TKM for a specific donation and see what happens. But I'd hate to see a good thing get all messed up over money. Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:14:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lighted numberboard operation The GG1 locos had separate switches for the headlights, marker lights and the number boards. Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080450876 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
The GG1 locos had separate switches for the headlights, marker lights a= nd the number boards.
 

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080450876-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:19:14 EST Subject: [PRR] MP45 Cab Signals While back in God's Country (Pennsylvania), a friend showed me a cab signal from an MP45 that had operated in the Philly area. The signal box showed five aspects. From top to bottom the aspects were Clear, Restricted, Clear, Restricted the an aspect with only two white dots that were on a diagonal line that was opposite from the Restricted aspect. Atop this cab signal box was red light. Can anyone explain how these aspects were interpreted Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080451154 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
While back in God's Country (Pennsylvania),  a friend showed me a=20= cab signal from an MP45 that had operated in the Philly area.  The sign= al box showed five aspects.  From top to bottom the aspects were Clear,= Restricted, Clear, Restricted the an aspect with only two white dots that w= ere on a diagonal line that was opposite from the Restricted aspect.  A= top this cab signal box was red light.
 
Can anyone explain how these aspects were interpreted
 

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080451154-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:13:25 GMT Subject: [PRR] Membership suggestions From: Dominic Mazoch From: "E. Mike" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP45 Cab Signals Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 07:34:04 +0000 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 04:13:03 EST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! (was read this...) All...=20 First of all I think it is very important we keep these issues crossposted s= o=20 all views can be shared with all concerned. This could get way out of contro= l=20 and we actually could have no FREE TKM. That would be the death of this trul= y=20 innovative ON-LINE Magazine...=20 First let me remind everyone band width is cheap. I have a 100 meg site that= =20 I seldom even mess with and it is totally free. =20 To the best of my recollection The Keystone Modeler was never intended to be= =20 anything less than free. As a good friend of mine Joe Tucker puts it..."bait= =20 for trolling for new members..."=20 If in fact the current BOD believes that the drop in membership is attribute= d=20 to the TKM. If this can be proven then show me don't tell me, otherwise,=20 "don't fix what ain't broke." I think in fact that the TMK has drawn in mem= bers=20 not alienated them, but the BOD has done more than it's share to alienate=20 members in the past and I would imagine in the near future. Sit back, relax=20= and let=20 us do our jobs.=20 Some say there is cost attributed to everything. I say what does the TKM cos= t=20 the society, I am a member I should have the right to know. Band width is=20 cheap advertising. So now they say we should take TKM and hide it from "the=20 others" and save it just for us ... I say you are NUTZ! It has been and shou= ld=20 continue to be to achieve one goal attract new members from the modeling com= munity=20 ... read as FREE! Ask Garrett Rea why he joined the society...? Let me say this, most of the "greedy bunch" haven't contributed to TKM ...=20 Now they would like to control it. To that I say ... I feel it is my preroga= tive=20 to where and how I donate my time... If you take it away you might see a=20 greater drop in membership if you choose to alienate the modeling community.= .. We=20 have accomplished a lot of good things since we started and many don't reali= ze=20 what those accomplishments have been. We have probably made some judgmental=20 errors and can think of a few. I will address them with the modeling committ= ee=20 but not in this forum. What we have done is attracted the attention of other= s=20 and I think that in the future we shall see others follow our lead. Count on= =20 it!=20 Many off you likely don't know the history behind HYPERSCALE.COM but they=20 took a similar direction to what the BOD and the "greedy bunch" have purpose= d by=20 making TKM a PAY PER VIEW site... Let me tell you it will quickly implode as= =20 did Hyperscale. But Hyperscale is back and free, it now has sponsors that he= lp=20 defray the cost, this might be an option. But hidden behind passwords in not= =20 an option. People you are playing right into their hands. KEEP THE POLITICS=20= OUT=20 OF TKM, let those whom are willing to donate their time in this forward=20 thinking endeavor and enjoy what we do and allow us to share it with all mod= elers=20 and we will bring you new members.=20 If the PRRT&HS BOD needs members then it needs a membership drive. I ask you= ,=20 where was the members of the BOD in Cocoa Beach, do they think modelers don'= t=20 spend money on historical societies? This BOD is like a brand new major=20 league team of baseball players with new uniforms, new bats, gloves and they= =20 forgot one thing ... the BALLS! If we need renewals, takes steps to correct=20= the=20 renewal policies that stumbled with this year. Cutting cost by putting them=20= in=20 the KEYSTONE was a blunder. Like stepping over a dollar to pick up a penny.=20= The=20 only reason I remembered to bring my membership up to date was due to a=20 special email notice from our President Al Buchan.=20 I assure you the modeling committee will address some of the issue that are=20 transparent to you amongst ourselves. I will address them privately with th= ose=20 who need to know my views of our errors and will evolve.=20 Now I am a big boy and take your best shots because you only serve to hurt=20 yourselves if you play into their hands. But remember I am only standing up=20= for=20 you all... And don't believe all that the "Good Old Boys" tell you.=20 MY Views and more than 2=A2 worth... Greg Martin/RATSO Columnist, Modeling Author, PRRT&HS member (current), ASSHOLE, BIG MOUTH and trouble maker... Banned by the NMRA PSR Div. for standing up to them...=20 AKA RATSO call me RATSO...=20 --part1_c3.3fb2caa9.2d97f11f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" All...

First of all I think it is very important we keep these issues crossposted s= o all views can be shared with all concerned. This could get way out of cont= rol and we actually could have no FREE TKM. That would be the death of this=20= truly innovative ON-LINE Magazine...

First let me remind everyone band width is cheap. I have a 100 meg site that= I seldom even mess with and it is totally free. 

To the best of my recollection The Keystone Modeler was never intended to be= anything less than free. As a good friend of mine Joe Tucker puts it..."bai= t for trolling for new members..."

If in fact the current BOD believes that the drop in membership is attribute= d to the TKM. If this can be proven then show me don't tell me, otherwise, "= don't fix what ain't broke."  I think in fact that the TMK has drawn in= members not alienated them, but the BOD has done more than it's share to al= ienate members in the past and I would imagine in the near future. Sit back,= relax and let us do our jobs.

Some say there is cost attributed to everything. I say what does the TKM cos= t the society, I am a member I should have the right to know. Band width is=20= cheap advertising. So now they say we should take TKM and hide it from "the=20= others" and save it just for us ... I say you are NUTZ! It has been and shou= ld continue to be to achieve one goal attract new members from the modeling=20= community ... read as FREE! Ask Garrett Rea why he joined the society...?
Let me say this, most of the "greedy bunch" haven't contributed to TKM ... N= ow they would like to control it. To that I say ... I feel it is my prero= gative to where and how I donate my time... If you take it away you might se= e a greater drop in membership if you choose to alienate the modeling commun= ity... We have accomplished a lot of good things since we started and ma= ny don't realize what those accomplishments have been. We have probably made= some judgmental errors and can think of a few. I will address them with the= modeling committee but not in this forum. What we have done is attracted th= e attention of others and I think that in the future we shall see others fol= low our lead. Count on it!

Many off you likely don't know the history behind HYPERSCALE.COM but they to= ok a similar direction to what the BOD and the "greedy bunch" have purposed=20= by making TKM a PAY PER VIEW site... Let me tell you it will quickly=20= implode as did Hyperscale. But Hyperscale is back and free, it now has spons= ors that help defray the cost, this might be an option. But hidden behind pa= sswords in not an option. People you are playing right into their hands. = KEEP THE POLITICS OUT OF TKM, let those whom are willing to donate their= time in this forward thinking endeavor and enjoy what we do and allow us to= share it with all modelers and we will bring you new members.

If the PRRT&HS BOD needs members then it needs a membership drive. I ask= you, where was the members of the BOD in Cocoa Beach, do they think modeler= s don't spend money on historical societies?  This BOD is like a brand=20= new major league team of baseball players with new uniforms, new bats, glove= s and they forgot one thing ... the BALLS! If we need renewals, takes steps=20= to correct the renewal policies that stumbled with this year. Cutting cost b= y putting them in the KEYSTONE was a blunder. Like stepping over a dollar to= pick up a penny. The only reason I remembered to bring my membership up to=20= date was due to a special email notice from our President Al Buchan.

I assure you the modeling committee will address some of the issue that are=20= transparent to you amongst ourselves.  I will address them privately wi= th those who need to know my views of our errors and will evolve.

Now I am a big boy and take your best shots because you only serve to hurt y= ourselves if you play into their hands. But remember I am only standing up f= or you all... And don't believe all that the "Good Old Boys" tell you.

MY Views and more than 2=A2 worth...

Greg Martin/RATSO
Columnist, Modeling Author,
PRRT&HS member (current), ASSHOLE, BIG MOUTH and trouble maker...
Banned by the NMRA PSR Div. for standing up to them...
AKA RATSO call me RATSO... --part1_c3.3fb2caa9.2d97f11f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:53:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Live Free or Die! (was read this...) Thank you for the TKM the best thig that ever happend to model railroading. Long live the PRR. --part1_d2.89bfb92.2d9816b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Thank you for the TKM the best thig= that ever happend to model railroading. Long live the PRR. --part1_d2.89bfb92.2d9816b6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:15:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List members, Has the idea of combining the Keystone and the Keystone Modeler ever been discussed? Just curious. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:13:18 -0500 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 28, 2004, at 12:15 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Has the idea of combining the Keystone and the Keystone Modeler > ever been discussed? Just curious. I don't think now is the time... The TKM is currently monthly, and quite a few pages. The Keystone could never support that influx of material. Over time, I suspect material for TKM will decline to a level that may be conducive to merger, but right now TKM is enjoying a wave of material from pent up interest. Keep TKM "as is", for now, as far as content is concerned. I'd have to look, but does TKM include a membership application? It should, and it should be near the FRONT of each issue... perhaps right after the table of contents. In the mean time, the Society should EXPEDITE a separate mailing to all of the non-renewees. I'd further suggest that they go so far as to provide a check box for "why they didn't renew previously"... X Didn't see the original renewal form inside The Keysone X Other _________________ Maybe we can "learn" from this situation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Mackintosh" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:03:21 -0500 Group - =20 I concur with many of the PRR-Talk Digest members that renewal notices should be a separate mailing; like other bills we receive. I was = reminded to renew last year, and renewed on-line, only because of a notice in one = of the PRRT&HS Newsletter e-mails - I don't recall seeing a notice in = Keystone. =20 I also concur with many that the TKM should be available to members only = and accessed via a password-protected Web site area. It could also be sold separately as a source of additional revenue. It is a terrific = publication that is way too good to be given away free of cost. I download and = print the PDF version on my color printer and keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference.=20 ____________________ Don Mackintosh PRRT&HS member 5934 16499 Hayes Lane Woodbridge, VA 22191 703.730.0748=20 donmack@comcast.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C414A3.8889E620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Group –

 

I concur with many of the PRR-Talk Digest members = that renewal notices should be a separate mailing; like other bills we receive.  I was reminded to renew last year, and renewed on-line, = only because of a notice in one of the PRRT&HS Newsletter e-mails – = I don’t recall seeing a notice in Keystone. 

 

I also concur with many that the TKM should be = available to members only and accessed via a password-protected Web site area.  = It could also be sold separately as a source of additional revenue.  = It is a terrific publication that is way too good to be given away free of = cost.  I download and print the PDF version on my color printer and keep it in = a 3-ring binder for reference. 

______________= ______

Don Mackintosh

PRRT&HS member 5934
16499 Hayes Lane
Woodbridge, = VA  = 22191
703.730.0748
donmack@comcast.net=

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C414A3.8889E620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:27:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Have been watching this discussion. Agree that TKM should be stand-alone. For once got my renewal in on time. Also agree that you really need more than one reminder in more than one place. How many reminders do you get from the model press, even when your subscription is not expiring. I have had similar problems with participation at work. We run a very active training function for our members and we publish a quarterly newsletter that requires nagging to get input. I also serve or have served on many community boards and committees and you have to keep people's attention, or it goes elsewhere. The condition of the economy at the time may also have been a factor. There will always be attrition from death, illness, changing interests, etc. But several gentle reminders keep the issue in front of the member. I think that the time, effort and money should be put into contacting the non-renews as suggested by Jerry. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:13 AM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger On Mar 28, 2004, at 12:15 AM, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Has the idea of combining the Keystone and the Keystone Modeler > ever been discussed? Just curious. I don't think now is the time... The TKM is currently monthly, and quite a few pages. The Keystone could never support that influx of material. Over time, I suspect material for TKM will decline to a level that may be conducive to merger, but right now TKM is enjoying a wave of material from pent up interest. Keep TKM "as is", for now, as far as content is concerned. I'd have to look, but does TKM include a membership application? It should, and it should be near the FRONT of each issue... perhaps right after the table of contents. In the mean time, the Society should EXPEDITE a separate mailing to all of the non-renewees. I'd further suggest that they go so far as to provide a check box for "why they didn't renew previously"... X Didn't see the original renewal form inside The Keysone X Other _________________ Maybe we can "learn" from this situation. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brent Holt" Subject: [PRR] New member/Photos and info for website Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:21:20 -0500 I am a new member of the society and this e-mail list.=20 I have several train related web sites and am looking for material for = my Shortlines of Southern Indiana site. http://www.trainweb.org/indianashortlines/ It covers the Louisville & Indiana RR ,Southern Indiana RR, MG Rail, = Paducah & Louisville, Indiana Railroad and Indiana Southern RR. (Mainly = the L&I) The L&I is ex-Pennsy and runs between Louisville and Indianapolis. I = have been searching for years for photos of PRR, PC, and Conrail = operations on the line, with little success. Does anyone know of a = source for this that would allow their photos to be posted on the site? = I would also like info on operations of the previous owners. Thanks, Brent=20 Jeffersonville, IN ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C414B6.CBB09FD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I am a new member of the society and = this e-mail=20 list.
I have several train related web sites = and am=20 looking for material for my Shortlines of Southern Indiana = site.
http://www.trainweb.o= rg/indianashortlines/
It covers the Louisville & Indiana = RR ,Southern=20 Indiana RR, MG Rail, Paducah & Louisville, Indiana Railroad and = Indiana=20 Southern RR. (Mainly the L&I)
The L&I is ex-Pennsy and runs = between=20 Louisville and Indianapolis. I have been searching for years for photos = of PRR,=20 PC, and Conrail operations on the line, with little success. Does anyone = know of=20 a source for this that would allow their photos to be posted on the = site? I=20 would also like info on operations of the previous owners.
 
Thanks,
 
Brent
Jeffersonville, = IN
------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C414B6.CBB09FD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:27:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TKM-Keystone merger jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > I'd have to look, but does TKM include a membership application? It should, > and it should be near the FRONT of each issue ... perhaps right after the > table of contents. Jerry and all, There is no membership application and this is the fault of the editorial committee. But we are growing and we are learning but we get better every time they publish. But let's keep it FREE and simple and growing. Greg Martin AKA... RATSO --part1_53.7f84bc8.2d98570b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" jerry@pennsyrr.com wr= ites:


I'd have to look, but does TKM=20= include a membership application? It should, and it should be near the FRONT= of each issue ... perhaps right after the table of contents.

Jerry and all,

There is no membership application and this is the fault of the editorial co= mmittee. But we are growing and we are learning but we get better every time= they publish. But let's keep it FREE and simple and growing.

Greg Martin AKA... RATSO --part1_53.7f84bc8.2d98570b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:39:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read donmack@comcast.net writes: > also concur with many that the TKM should be available to members only and > accessed via a password-protected Web site area. It could also be sold > separately as a source of additional revenue. It is a terrific publication that > is way too good to be given away free of cost. I download and print the PDF > version on my color printer and keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference. > > ____________________ > > Don Mackintosh > Once again following this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL of "greedy bunch." This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the death of one of the best ideas to hit this society since its inception. What makes any of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the TKM that we should cut short it's progress before it's goals have been reached. Someone tell me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and then what does the KEYSTONE cost and what are the budget overruns with that ... read as red ink! KEEP TMK FREE ... if it's not broke don't fix it. Greg Martin Greg --part1_1e9.1c6dce77.2d9859c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" donmack@comcast.net w= rites:


also concur with many that the= TKM should be available to members only and accessed via a password-protect= ed Web site area.  It could also be sold separately as a source of addi= tional revenue.  It is a terrific publication that is way too good to b= e given away free of cost.  I download and print the PDF version on my=20= color printer and keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference.

____________________

Don Mackintosh
Once again following this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL of "gre= edy bunch."

This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the death of one of= the best ideas to hit this society since its inception.  What makes an= y of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the TKM that we sh= ould cut short it's progress before it's goals have been reached. Someone te= ll me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and then what does the KEYST= ONE cost and what are the budget overruns with that ... read as red ink!
KEEP TMK FREE ...  if it's not broke don't fix it.

Greg Martin

Greg
--part1_1e9.1c6dce77.2d9859c2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:09:58 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - TKM X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: beth capl caples Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I believe that it should stay as is. It is a great source of information far better than anything else. I believe it can be used to GET more membership by getting new people involved in the PRRTHS. If you restrict it to only current members than how are you going to attract new membership? John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:28:16 -0500 Greg and list, Although I am a former employee of the PRR and have modeled it roughly = since its merger with the NYC, this is the first year I have joined the = PRRT&HS. Perhaps a little background as to the "why" of my decision to = finally join might add a little light to this discussion. Previously, I didn't belong because I have lived in the Florida = Panhandle fo the past 23 years, had never seen a "Keystone" and felt = that the PRRT&HS was a Philadelphia and environs oriented society that = had little to offer a person living over 1000 miles from that area. After having been made to feel unwelcome at the PRRT&HS website, I = hadn't visited in in a couple of years until someone on PRR-Talk = mentioned TKM. So I looked at the first few issues and was extremely = impressed. I then met some of you, including the President, AL Buchan, = at Cocoa Beach and joined as soon as I returned home. So, TKM got at least one new member, me. I must say I agree with Greg = Martin that TKM is an excellent inducement to get more members, not = anything that will decrease membership.. After all, this information = wasn't offered in the "keystone" before, was it? All this clamoring to charge for TKM or restrict access goes back to my = original reason for not joining sooner - the attitude of some of the = membership that they are an exclusive club and new members are not = welcome, even if they are former employees. I also read an unfair accusation about the PRRT&HS BOD not being present = at Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan don't count? PRR = was well represented by in models and clinics. Of couse, the N scale = ones were mine.:<) Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but this is the sort of thing that = can do real damage to an organization. Gregg Mahlkov #7418 And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and a 56K modem, so = PDF files are too slow for me. ------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C414C0.259032A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Greg and list,
 
Although I am a former employee of the PRR and have = modeled it=20 roughly since its merger with the NYC, this is the first year I have = joined the=20 PRRT&HS. Perhaps a little background as to the "why" of my decision = to=20 finally join might add a little light to this discussion.
 
Previously, I didn't belong because I have lived in = the=20 Florida Panhandle fo the past 23 years, had never seen a "Keystone" and = felt=20 that the PRRT&HS was a Philadelphia and environs oriented society = that had=20 little to offer a person living over 1000 miles from that = area.
 
After having been made to feel unwelcome at the = PRRT&HS=20 website, I hadn't visited in in a couple of years until someone on = PRR-Talk=20 mentioned TKM. So I looked at the first few issues and was extremely = impressed.=20 I then met some of you, including the President, AL Buchan, at Cocoa = Beach and=20 joined as soon as I returned home.
 
So, TKM got at least one new member, me. I must say = I agree=20 with Greg Martin that TKM is an excellent inducement to get = more=20 members, not anything that will decrease membership.. After all, this=20 information wasn't offered in the "keystone" before, was = it?
 
All this clamoring to charge for TKM or restrict = access goes=20 back to my original reason for not joining sooner - the attitude of some = of the=20 membership that they are an exclusive club and new members are not = welcome, even=20 if they are former employees.
 
I also read an unfair accusation about the = PRRT&HS BOD not=20 being present at Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan = don't count?=20 PRR was well represented by in models and clinics. Of couse, the N scale = ones=20 were mine.:<)
 
Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but this is the = sort of=20 thing that can do real damage to an organization.
 
Gregg Mahlkov #7418
 
And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and = a=20 56K  modem, so PDF files are too slow for = me.
------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C414C0.259032A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:47:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - TKM John Bless you for being the visionary that the rest of the TMK staff was/is... Especially, Al Buchan! > I believe that it should stay as is. It is a great source of information > far better than anything else. I believe it can be used to GET more membership > by getting new people involved in the PRRTHS. If you restrict it to only > current members than how are you going to attract new membership? > John Caples Keeping the word out there with as many members of the modeling community as possible builds credibility and respect, enough so much so that after one reads our little magazine that they believe it is time to join and see what the rest of the society is all about... If we play our cards correctly we will keep them on forever. RATSO/AKA Greg Martin --part1_ae.53e5c362.2d9869c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" John

Bless you for being the visionary that the rest of the TMK staff was/is... E= specially, Al Buchan!

I believe that it should stay a= s is. It is a great source of information far better than anything else. I b= elieve it can be used to GET more membership by getting new people involved=20= in the PRRTHS. If you restrict it to only current members than how are you g= oing to attract new membership?
John Caples


Keeping the word out there with as many members of the modeling community as= possible builds credibility and respect, enough so much so that after one r= eads our little magazine that they believe it is time to join and see what t= he rest of the society is all about... If we play our cards correctly we wil= l keep them on forever.

RATSO/AKA Greg Martin --part1_ae.53e5c362.2d9869c4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:59:13 -0500 From: Phil Balles Subject: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Regards Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:59:13 -0500 From: Phil Balles Subject: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: List Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Regards Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 12:55:49 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Re: TKM From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:17:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Greg Mahlkov writes: > After having been made to feel unwelcome at the PRRT&HS website, I hadn't > visited in a couple of years until someone on PRR-Talk mentioned TKM. So I > looked at the first few issues and was extremely impressed. I then met some of > you, including the President, AL Buchan, at Cocoa Beach and joined as soon as > I returned home. A great place to meet fellow modelers and we enjoyed the extra sun you supplied us... The seeds that Al apparently planted now have began to grow. > So, TKM got at least one new member, me. I must say I agree with Greg > Martin that TKM is an excellent inducement to get more members, not anything that > will decrease membership... After all, this information wasn't offered in the > "keystone" before, was it? And Greg in actuality you are not alone as the whole concept made me a member... No, this was all new material which amassed quickly and Al has a good backlog with more coming... > All this clamoring to charge for TKM or restrict access goes back to my > original reason for not joining sooner - the attitude of some of the membership > that they are an exclusive club and new members are not welcome, even if they > are former employees. > > I also read an unfair accusation about the PRRT&HS BOD not being present at > Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan don't count? PRR was well > represented by in models and clinics. Of course, the N scale ones were mine.:< > ) Well, in fact they do count but isn't there more folks involved here that could have made the journey. I am sure that Tom Madden would have liked to meet up with Chuck Bardone. It would just allow more folks to rotate at table that deals just with the PRRT&HS as we will have next year. Bruce and I will man it but it would be nice to have some relief at some point. I was hoping that Al could have focused on more "other business" in Cocoa Beach that involved the manufacturers. > Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, but this is the sort of thing that can > do real damage to an organization. > > Gregg Mahlkov #7418 > > And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and a 56K modem, so PDF > files are too slow for me. Greg, don't be afraid to step on anyone's toes, this is a good thing it gets there attention. SPEAK LOUDLY and use my name... RATSO/Greg Martin --part1_cf.89febd5.2d9870d2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Greg Mahlkov writes:<= BR>

After having been made to feel=20= unwelcome at the PRRT&HS website, I hadn't visited in a couple of years=20= until someone on PRR-Talk mentioned TKM. So I looked at the first few issues= and was extremely impressed. I then met some of you, including the Presiden= t, AL Buchan, at Cocoa Beach and joined as soon as I returned home.

A great place to meet fellow modelers and we enjoyed the extr= a sun you supplied us... The seeds that Al apparently planted now have began= to grow.

So, TKM got at least one new m= ember, me. I must say I agree with Greg Martin that TKM is an excellent indu= cement to get more members, not anything that will decrease membership... Af= ter all, this information wasn't offered in the "keystone" before, was it?<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

And Greg in actuality you are not alone as the whole concept=20= made me a member... No, this was all new material which amassed quickly and=20= Al has a good backlog with more coming...

All this clamoring to charge f= or TKM or restrict access goes back to my original reason for not joining so= oner - the attitude of some of the membership that they are an exclusive clu= b and new members are not welcome, even if they are former employees.=

I also read an unfair accusation about the PRRT&HS BOD not being presen= t at Cocoa Beach. I suppose Al Buchan and Charlie Horan don't count? PRR was= well represented by in models and clinics. Of course, the N scale ones were= mine.:<)


Well, in fact they do count but isn't there more folks involv= ed here that could have made the journey. I am sure that Tom Madden would ha= ve liked to meet up with Chuck Bardone.  It would just allow more folks= to rotate at table that deals just with the PRRT&HS as we will have nex= t year. Bruce and I will man it but it would be nice to have some relief at=20= some point.  I was hoping that Al could have focused on more "other bus= iness" in Cocoa Beach that involved the manufacturers. 

Sorry if I've stepped on any=20= toes, but this is the sort of thing that can do real damage to an organizati= on.

Gregg Mahlkov #7418

And, BTW, I'm still using a computer with 166Mhz and a 56K modem, so PDF fi= les are too slow for me.


Greg, don't be afraid to step on anyone's toes, this is a good thing it gets= there attention.

SPEAK LOUDLY and use my name...

RATSO/Greg Martin --part1_cf.89febd5.2d9870d2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Keystone/PRR T&HS issues Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:21:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil and List, I think that the job of Keystone distribution manager is available merely for the asking. It has been announced more help is needed in that area at the Phila. Chapter meets more then once. If this whole thing is a call to arms, then come out shootin! My jury is still out on the other recent issues. I tend to think that if the contributors do so for free knowing that there is no compensation, then TKM too should remain free. That COULD be the hook here. TKM remains free for you if you contribute to it twice a year. I try to give photos to both the Keystone and TKM as much as possible. Chuck Blardone has loudly stated recently that backlog of articles to be published in the Keystone is getting dangerously small. Those in the know that will prepare the number crunching spreadsheet may be able to correlate the non-renews to subscribers of TKM. I will wait until that time comes for the results. I will end this with this thought. Chuck Blardone has been doing us ALL a HUGE service for the past 20 or so years by keeping the quality and time schedule of the Keystone second to none. We all should be prepared, because whenever he decides to return to civilian life, the negative impact on the society will also be huge and unstoppable unless an equally committed, dedicated and qualified successor steps up immediately. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Keystone/PRR T&HS issues Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 14:21:29 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil and List, I think that the job of Keystone distribution manager is available merely for the asking. It has been announced more help is needed in that area at the Phila. Chapter meets more then once. If this whole thing is a call to arms, then come out shootin! My jury is still out on the other recent issues. I tend to think that if the contributors do so for free knowing that there is no compensation, then TKM too should remain free. That COULD be the hook here. TKM remains free for you if you contribute to it twice a year. I try to give photos to both the Keystone and TKM as much as possible. Chuck Blardone has loudly stated recently that backlog of articles to be published in the Keystone is getting dangerously small. Those in the know that will prepare the number crunching spreadsheet may be able to correlate the non-renews to subscribers of TKM. I will wait until that time comes for the results. I will end this with this thought. Chuck Blardone has been doing us ALL a HUGE service for the past 20 or so years by keeping the quality and time schedule of the Keystone second to none. We all should be prepared, because whenever he decides to return to civilian life, the negative impact on the society will also be huge and unstoppable unless an equally committed, dedicated and qualified successor steps up immediately. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:52:00 +0100 Seems a fair way of doing things Parick Grace ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com=20 To: donmack@comcast.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; = prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read donmack@comcast.net writes: also concur with many that the TKM should be available to members = only and accessed via a password-protected Web site area. It could also = be sold separately as a source of additional revenue. It is a terrific = publication that is way too good to be given away free of cost. I = download and print the PDF version on my color printer and keep it in a = 3-ring binder for reference.=20 ____________________ Don Mackintosh Once again following this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL = of "greedy bunch."=20 This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the death of = one of the best ideas to hit this society since its inception. What = makes any of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the = TKM that we should cut short it's progress before it's goals have been = reached. Someone tell me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and = then what does the KEYSTONE cost and what are the budget overruns with = that ... read as red ink!=20 KEEP TMK FREE ... if it's not broke don't fix it.=20 Greg Martin Greg=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C41506.84464000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Seems a fair way of doing = things
 
Parick Grace
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TGREGMRTN@aol.com
To: donmack@comcast.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com= =20
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 = 5:39=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS = help;=20 important; please read

donmack@comcast.net=20 writes:


also concur with many that the TKM should be available = to=20 members only and accessed via a password-protected Web site = area.  It=20 could also be sold separately as a source of additional = revenue.  It is=20 a terrific publication that is way too good to be given away free of = cost.  I download and print the PDF version on my color printer = and=20 keep it in a 3-ring binder for reference.

____________________

Don = Mackintosh


Once = again following=20 this tact we fall into the hands of the CONTROL of "greedy bunch."=20

This self indulging selfish attitude will divided and be the = death of=20 one of the best ideas to hit this society since its inception.  = What=20 makes any of think that we as members do so much to contribute to the = TKM that=20 we should cut short it's progress before it's goals have been reached. = Someone=20 tell me how much of my dues each year goes to TKM and then what does = the=20 KEYSTONE cost and what are the budget overruns with that ... read as = red ink!=20

KEEP TMK FREE ...  if it's not broke don't fix it. =

Greg=20 Martin

Greg
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C41506.84464000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] asking for help Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:01:38 -0500 I am tring to do an article on a Wreck which happened below Snow Hill, = MD on Mar 30 1946. Would anyone out there happen to have any old photo's = of this wreck? I have tried the Library locally and they have no copies = of the paper even on Microfish. I'd appreciate any help. Lee Burbage (1943) PRT&HS Retired USCG, and Railroad also. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C414D5.92480700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I am tring to do an article on a Wreck which happened below Snow = Hill, MD=20 on Mar 30 1946. Would anyone out there happen to have any old photo's of = this=20 wreck? I have tried the Library locally and they have no copies of the = paper=20 even on Microfish.
 
I'd appreciate any help.
 
Lee Burbage  (1943) PRT&HS
Retired USCG, and Railroad also.
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C414D5.92480700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: [PRR] TKM Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:59:54 -0500 Al, If need be, remove the TKM from the Society and publish it on it's own. The BOD does not own everything Pennsy. Don Murphy ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C414DD.B634D460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" TKM

Al,

If = need be, remove the TKM from the Society and publish it on = it’s own. The BOD does not own everything = Pennsy.

Don = Murphy

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C414DD.B634D460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:36:22 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil and Gents, Dave Scott handles the sales of books and Keystone's to hobby and book shops. I know orders are regularly sent to the Strasburg rail shop and a book store in NYC. I should know because my father packages the books and some of the magazine orders. If Kleins would like to carry our publications they must contact us. I haven't been to Kleins recently but personally from my own opinion from working in Balmer' the B&O has a bigger presence with its museum than the PRR. If a demand is created for PRR publication then I think Kleins would consider it. But like all businesses there must be a demand. If Kleins purchases PRR publications and they gather dust sitting on a rack what's the point? The only major PRR building still in use is the station, younger people may recall old, abandoned facilities somewhere but the PRR itself has no major vision in Baltimore anymore. -John Phil Balles wrote: List Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Regards Phil Balles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:23:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings This latest series of topics started with the PRRT&HS help message and has morphed into other topics. The original topic is the most important and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. If there are 669 members that haven't renewed then something has gone wrong somewhere. Blame has been placed on the TKM ,aging you name it. With a number as large as 669 members something went wrong in the communications of the renewal. Try to contact the 669 people the least expensive way either by email if available or by postcard. This way the society will at least have some idea of what happened and will know if there is a true disaster in the making or just some bad communications. Once the true nature of the problem is found simply try to make sure it doesn't happen again. In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al Buchan's changes to the society. I have been a member since I think 1978 or 1979 and the society in the past offered me little in information, modeling or operations info for the era I had an interest in. I attempted a number of years ago to get the society to sponsor a special number run of a HO scale PRR car that I knew was going to be released. I was willing to bankroll the project so the society would have no possible financial loss and if the project was a success it would keep all the profits after I had been paid back my investment. I was told by the SUIT in charge at that time that the society had no interest in anything like that and was strictly a Historical society. well the car was a big sucess and the society missed out on a source of revenue. The society needs modelers to be members. There are not sufficient numbers of people interested in the Historical aspect only to sustain the society as we know it. Getting back to the original title find out what went wrong and hopefully fix it. -------------------------- Ken McCorry PRRT&HS #1536 and Phila Chap #323 --part1_1ce.1d2d47a2.2d98aa7f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" This latest s= eries of topics started with the PRRT&HS help message and has morphed in= to other topics. The original topic is the most important and needs to be de= alt with as soon as possible. If there are 669 members that haven't renewed=20= then something has gone wrong somewhere. Blame has been placed on the TKM ,a= ging you name it.  With a number as large as 669 members something went= wrong in the communications of the renewal. Try to contact the 669 people t= he least expensive way either by email if available or by postcard. This way= the society will at least have some idea of what happened and will know if=20= there is a true disaster in the making or just some bad communications. &nbs= p;Once the true nature of the problem is found simply try to make sure it do= esn't happen again.=20
=20
In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age=20= with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al Buchan's= changes to the society. I have been a member since I think 1978 or 1979 and= the society in the past offered me little in information, modeling or opera= tions info for the era I had an interest in.=20
I attempted a number of years ago to get the society to sponsor a specia= l number run of a  HO scale PRR car that I knew was going to be release= d. I was willing to bankroll the project so the society would have no possib= le financial loss and if the project was a success it would keep all the pro= fits after I had been paid back my investment. I was told by the SUIT in cha= rge at that time that the society had no interest in anything like that and=20= was strictly a Historical society. well the car was a big sucess and the soc= iety missed out on a source of revenue.=20
The society needs modelers to be members. There are not sufficient numb= ers of people interested in the Historical aspect only to sustain the societ= y as we know it. Getting back to the original title find out what went wrong= and hopefully fix it.=20
--------------------------   Ken McCorry   PRRT&= ;HS #1536 and Phila Chap #323 --part1_1ce.1d2d47a2.2d98aa7f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:26:33 -0500 To: KEMACPRR@aol.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 28, 2004, at 5:23 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age > with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al > Buchan's changes to the society. Agreed. Al and I don't always see eye to eye, but it was just back in 1999 or so that the BoD met and declared that the PRRT&HS would NOT become an online society. You swap out a few faces with those who have online experience, and look at how far we have come in five years! The eNews and TKM have been excellent and welcome additions to the Society's offerings, and Al is lagely, if not totally, responsible. Kudos! The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:07:44 +0000 > Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 From: "Mike Brown" Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:19:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <597290DE-810F-11D8-90D3-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My grandparents subscribe to the keystone for me...They have been doing this for a few years now...Is there any way to find out if they have done so this year... -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 6:27 PM To: KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings On Mar 28, 2004, at 5:23 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age > with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al > Buchan's changes to the society. Agreed. Al and I don't always see eye to eye, but it was just back in 1999 or so that the BoD met and declared that the PRRT&HS would NOT become an online society. You swap out a few faces with those who have online experience, and look at how far we have come in five years! The eNews and TKM have been excellent and welcome additions to the Society's offerings, and Al is lagely, if not totally, responsible. Kudos! The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:32:53 +0000 From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:51:06 -0600 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <597290DE-810F-11D8-90D3-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: -----Original Message----- The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. I agree 100%. I am an active member of my college fraternity Alumni association. We faced a very similar problem; lots of people were not paying their annual dues. We switched from including the annual renewal notice in a newsletter to sending out a separate bill. Renewals went up dramatically. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:49:26 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mike Brown asked: My grandparents subscribe to the keystone for me...They have been doing this for a few years now...Is there any way to find out if they have done so this year... You could call them up and ask - if they're typical grandparents, they'd appreciate the fact that you called... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:47:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: At least one person has been selling select Keystone's and passing out membership applications at train show since September in the Western NY and Ohio area, me. I know that through those efforts have resulted in at least one new member, maybe more. People are very impressed with the Keystone. Also the issue that sold the quickest was the covered Hopper lettering issue, followed closely by the T1 issue. It helped I was tying that issue to the BL! T1, then the XL Boxcar issue. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:00:29 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Phil Balles wrote: Why doesn't our society distribute at least a few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing it's exposure to the masses. Somebody's getting Keystones out to at least one hobby shop - Granddad's Hobbies in Springfield, VA carries it regularly along with a variety of other historical society magazines. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:01:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Philip Taylor Subject: [PRR] Trends in Membership X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: To give a insight from another society, the C&O historical society. The last meeting which was well attended by their standards was one of their most succesful financially. Much of the success financially was from sales of products at the meeting to modelers. These included models, track charts, blueprints, photo CDs, and many other items. You can get a good idea of what they sell by looking at their web shop. www.chessieshop.com It was attended by over 90% modelers. They are the ones who have a continuing interest. They are the future of the historical societies. One area the PRRT&HS could help modelers and generate interest is by supplying what modelers need in this age of modeling from the prototype. With the C&OHS or the WMHS one can order track charts for any division. Reprints of company publications are carried in stock year round. Manuals and basic timetables reprints are sold by the society for a PROFIT. Custom runs of models do make some money. The current new PRR hopper in O has already sold out in 2 rail O almost before its release. Could they society have sponsered an extra set of numbers and sold them at a profit? Yes, but one must understand where the money is coming from and know the market. N&WHS does HO hoppers regularly and is now on run four. Enough said, Philip Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:01:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:52:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnf2384@suscom.net writes: Kleins would like to carry our publications they must contact us. I haven't been to Kleins recently but personally from my own opinion from working in Balmer' the B&O has a bigger presence with its museum than the PRR. If a demand is created for PRR publication then I think Kleins would consider it. But like all businesses there must be a demand. If Kleins purchases PRR publications and they gather dust sitting on a rack what's the point? John: You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you. The Society needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third party or by a member. Rich Orr -------------------------------1080529296 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:52:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, johnf238= 4@suscom.net writes:
Kleins would like to carry our publications th= ey must
contact us. I haven't been to Kleins recently but
personally= from my own opinion from working in Balmer' the
B&O has a bigger pr= esence with its museum than the PRR. If
a demand is created for PRR publ= ication then I think
Kleins would consider it. But like all businesses t= here
must be a demand. If Kleins purchases PRR publications and
they= gather dust sitting on a rack what's the point?
John:
 
You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you.  The Soci= ety needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third part= y or by a member.
 
Rich Orr
-------------------------------1080529296-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:15:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Phil Balles question regarding Klein's not carrying PRRT&HS materials. This is from the Society's Director of Marketing and Sales.. I sent gratis copies of some damaged Keystones to Klein's in 2002 and got no reply. I sent in late 1/04 or early 2/04 a letter, order forms and the book info again, and have heard no reply. I buy some Proto 2000 tank cars from them, and I know for a fact that some of the employees worked for the PRR and are PRR fans, BUT Mr. Klein is the one stopping the possible purchase. I would convey this to the person who asked the question and ask him if he goes into the hobby shop to ask why they are now carring the PRRT&HS items! I also know that the ex-PRR employee is on the Keystone Modeler distribution but is not a member! DS Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:16:22 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Rich, For the selling case I'm only stating what I know as the current policy. From talking with dad tonight, the Keystones that are sold are backissues from a few years ago too. I'm merely a voice in a sea of many, though one many speak as one voice you may be heard. It'd be worth it to zap one off to Dave Scott and get his take on things. Best Regards, John SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: John: You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you. The Society needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third party or by a member. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:19:51 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: <001e01c41523$8a64d880$8f00a8c0@home1wvb64y3eg> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mike, There's lots of Brown's on the current list but no Mike or Michael. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Mike Brown Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 7:20 PM To: 'Jerry @ Pennsy'; KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings My grandparents subscribe to the keystone for me...They have been doing this for a few years now...Is there any way to find out if they have done so this year... -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry @ Pennsy Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 6:27 PM To: KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! and other ramblings On Mar 28, 2004, at 5:23 PM, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > > In my opinion the TKM has brought the PRRT&HS out of the stone age > with something that the modeling sector can relate to. I applaud Al > Buchan's changes to the society. Agreed. Al and I don't always see eye to eye, but it was just back in 1999 or so that the BoD met and declared that the PRRT&HS would NOT become an online society. You swap out a few faces with those who have online experience, and look at how far we have come in five years! The eNews and TKM have been excellent and welcome additions to the Society's offerings, and Al is lagely, if not totally, responsible. Kudos! The immediate fix is to get first class mail renewal notices out to those who didn't re-up. Nothing else should be tweaked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:29:59 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gentelmen, I will sayafter hearing many thoughts I will definately be asking my boss if we could include a PRRT&HS membership application with the contents of our Union Station and Additional Passenger Concourse kit. Also, since i'm currently doing R&D on some PRR models, once into production I will personally make sure applications will be included since i'll be distributing the kits. Sometimes it's the realisation of a good idea that starts another ball rolling. -John Designer, Modeler, Consultant Mount Vernon Shops Baltimore, MD Specializing in HO & N scale for the Pennsy modeler. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:40:48 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS: The view from my side of the cab Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:13:00 -0600 For the record, in case any BOD members see this, my member no. is 470. = I am a railroad modeler; I am also a historian. How else can I = accumulate the information and knowledge to accurately depict what = equipment was in use and what was being done with it at Northumberland = in May 1954? This is hardly "playing with trains." I agree with Greg Martin; he nailed it, as usual. Keep the TKM free = and open to anyone. And it isn't broke so keep your hands off. It is = by far the most significant thing the society has done since I became a = member (remember, #470). I also agree with Ken McCorry; get on with fixing what is broke: the = member renewal notification system. And I remember the stone age: it = was when all we SPF's had was the Keystone and Pennsy Power. That is = almost unimaginable in this day and age. Enough--S-390's Decapods have been marked up, and The Buffalo Boxcar is = due up from Enola in about 20 minutes; I am told the power is M1b 6704. = Historians, you wanna come watch? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/hoxie/hoxie.html ------=_NextPart_000_0CE0_01C41511.D4E94060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
For the record, in case any BOD members = see this,=20 my member no. is 470.  I am a railroad modeler;  I am also a=20 historian.  How else can I accumulate the information and knowledge = to=20 accurately depict what equipment was in use and what was being done with = it at=20 Northumberland in May 1954?  This is hardly "playing with=20 trains."
 
I agree with Greg Martin;  he = nailed it, as=20 usual.  Keep the TKM free and open to anyone.  And it isn't = broke so=20 keep your hands off.  It is by far the most significant thing the = society=20 has done since I became a member (remember, #470).
 
I also agree with Ken McCorry;  = get on with=20 fixing what is broke:  the member renewal notification = system.  =20 And I remember the stone age: it was when all we SPF's had was the = Keystone and=20 Pennsy Power.  That is almost unimaginable in this day and=20 age.
 
Enough--S-390's Decapods have been = marked up,=20 and The Buffalo Boxcar is due up from Enola in about 20 minutes;  I = am told=20 the power is M1b 6704.  Historians, you wanna come = watch?
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
http://kc.pennsy= rr.com/layouts/hoxie/hoxie.html
------=_NextPart_000_0CE0_01C41511.D4E94060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:17:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Steve, Sorry to be joining in late, but was out of town all week and am trying to catch up. The problem with the stripes on the window glass was reported simply in some Motive Power Department correspondence I found as being due to "poor adherence" to the glass. If you look closer at some photos you can also see partial stripes across some porthole windows, evidence that supports this behavior. As Greg mentioned, the wash racks were probably one of the big culprits in this problem. As to whether a replacement window would have gotten replacement stripes, early on, probably yes, as they exhibited great concern over keeping up the corporate image. I read a large report on the great lengths they went to try to come up with techniques/solutions to touching up gold leaf stripes that had gotten damaged by chipping or wear. The even sent the company's "gold leaf expert" out in the field to observe and compare methods, options and results. Later on, once the plan changed to not continue with the stripes on the glass the effort may not have been expended. As with most issues concerning Motive Power plans and policies, the plan was indeed cut and dry in regards to the stripes across the windows; it was always the implementation the wasn't quite as neat. A Blue Print Instruction Letter was issued 9-30-53 to send out new Lettering, Striping and Painting tracings for the EP-20 and EP-22 class locomotives. The tracings were reissued "on account of removing striping across window glass". The fuzzy part was that it was to be carried out "when painting the above locomotive units". The earlier 7-7-52 instructions to paint passenger locomotives Tuscan Red were stated to be done at the time of high mileage maintenance repairs. On 10-27-52 this plan was changed to paint two locomotives Red per week. Don't know how many other times the plan changed. There almost always seemed to be a plan - it just doesn't always appear that way 50-odd years later when we look at a very limited number of photos taken at the exact moments of interest, particularly when many of the plans were set up to be implemented over a (sometimes protracted) period of time. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Hoxie To: Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Hi Jerry--I think the paint stripes across the windows issue wasn't so cut and dry. There are photos that show stripes on all the windows, stripes on none of the windows, and every possible combination in between, including one window in a pair with stripes and the other without. And this is in both DGLE and Tuscan. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walter Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS (non-member take) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:27:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Guys, Speaking as one of the "unwashed multitude" I have to wonder why more effort isn't spent on VISIBILITY. I personally don't go to the BIG model railroad shows, simply because they are far in my opinion. Yet I do attend any and all shows in my area, and that is about a 40 mile radius. To date, I have never seen or have heard mentioned the PRRT&HS at any of these "smaller" shows. Ever hear of spreading the word? One of the main reasons for joining (and attending conventions) should be the fellowship. Now let me pose this question: Who travels any distance "just" to look at other folks efforts? I would think it would be most advantagous to hold "mini meetings", hosted by a few of the faithful, in an attempt to bring others into the fold. Ties in with visibility. Having a copy or two of "The Keystone" sitting on a magazine rack doesn't (in my mind) speak much for the organization, but a semi-regular get together (posted here at least originally,with Jerry's blessings of course), might be more effective. I just have to ask, what are you trying to sell, "The Keystone" or the PRRT&HS? 'nuff said, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jconsoli" Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:50:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p5 (Debian) at paonline.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greg, What do you mean when you say " "Gold Leaf" stripe (actually Bronze/Gold)" ? In the diesel era, the PRR had considered using a paint that was filled with bronze powder to get the metallic appearance, but that was not what they used. All the Motive Power Department documents I have read state that it was actual, real live Gold Leaf - i.e., very, very thin sheets of actual gold. (In fact, one of EMD's belly-aches about using it was that they were experiencing substantial "pilferage" of their stock of the stuff - who would bother to steal imitation gold?) The method of application was to apply a sizing medium first to the exact surfaces to which the gold was to be applied. The gold leaf was transferred gingerly from the backing sheets that support the extremely delicate sheet of gold. Where there was sizing, it stuck, where there wasn't, it didn't. The finishing varnish was then applied over the gold leaf to protect it from mechanical and environmental abuse. The gold was so thin it had absolutely no structural integrity of its own, the strength of the application was totally based on the sizing and the varnish. When those items degraded, so went the finish. It was not uncommon for it to flake off leaving a poor appearance which was difficult to repair as the gold appeared to darken as it aged, making it difficult to seamlessly patch with a brighter, fresh gold leaf and varnish application. Jack Consoli ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Two More BLI E7 Paint Observations > Chris Chaney cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > > > Listers, > > Do you think if the window broke and they replaced it they would repaint the stripes? > > Chris Chany > > Chris, > > Not, I wouldn't believe they would but the that's not to say they didn't and there may be evidence that they did. > > The issue with the stripes coming off the windows was likely due to the wash racks... I know that the original "Gold Leaf" stripe (actually Bronze/Gold) was applied with common varnish as an adhesive including over the windows. As the varnishes broke donw I believe that the brittle stripe likely came off. But I can't prioove this as I was working in the shops. The adhesion to the glass was far less tht that to a painted surface. > > Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] Back to the original problem !!!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 06:43:37 -0500 To: John Frantz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 28, 2004, at 10:29 PM, John Frantz wrote: > I will sayafter hearing many thoughts I will definately be asking my > boss if we could include a PRRT&HS membership application with the > contents of our Union Station and Additional Passenger Concourse kit. > Also, since i'm currently doing R&D on some PRR models, once into > production I will personally make sure applications will be included > since i'll be distributing the kits. Sometimes it's the realisation of > a good idea that starts another ball rolling. That's a good thing and a bad thing. I think it suggests the kits are "endorsed" by the Society in some way, when they are not. I've seen photos of the Union Station model and it is, of course, a dead ringer for Baltimore. So I am not questioning the quality/appearance of the model. Just the fact that it is NOT endorsed and including Society materials within "may" suggest an endorsement. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR Convention registration Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:04:47 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I am registering a little later then I wanted to. Does anyone know if anything is sold out? More specifically, I want a vendor table and the 11:00 museum tour. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:04:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Convention registration Hi All, I am registering a little later then I wanted to. Does anyone know if anything is sold out? More specifically, I want a vendor table and the 11:00 museum tour. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:23:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 In-Reply-To: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John: The Keystones that are offer for sale are those from the previous year, i.e. the 2004 issues will be available in January 2005. That is the current policy. However, I would appreciate it if you would not state what the current policies of the Society are. You are not on the management team and speak with no authority. Thanx for your understanding and cooperation. Al Buchan President -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John Frantz Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 10:16 PM To: SUVCWORR@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Rich, For the selling case I'm only stating what I know as the current policy. From talking with dad tonight, the Keystones that are sold are backissues from a few years ago too. I'm merely a voice in a sea of many, though one many speak as one voice you may be heard. It'd be worth it to zap one off to Dave Scott and get his take on things. Best Regards, John SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: John: You sell very little waiting for someone to come to you. The Society needs to market the Keystone either through a contract with a third party or by a member. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:30:53 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/26/04 NYO&W gets a lot of ink from RMC. Joh Liebeskind -------------------------------1080567053 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
NYO&W gets a lot of ink from RMC.
Joh Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080567053-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:33:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/27/04 Ditto. John Liebeskind -------------------------------1080567221 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Ditto.
John Liebeskind
-------------------------------1080567221-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MLiebeskin@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:02:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/29/04 Ask them. -------------------------------1080568943 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Ask them. -------------------------------1080568943-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS: The view from my side of the cab Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:44:55 -0500 From: STEPHEN HOXIE [mailto:stevehprr@earthlink.net] Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS: The view from my side of the cab From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:17:49 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: John: Please accept my apologies for rebuking you in public about your statement regarding Society policy. It was not my intent, as I thought my message was addressed to you only. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:20:13 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/29/2004 8:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Al Buchan" writes: > However, I would appreciate it if you would not state >what the current policies of the Society are. You are not on the >management team and speak with no authority. >Al Buchan >President > Al: Therein lies the crux of the problem. The society is an oligarchy. Even the policies established by the BOD are not made known to the members. And now you don't want members to speak of the so called policies. How can you expect growth or even a stable membership number when everything is kept a secret? While I have been a member of the Society for about 20 years, I have frequently questioned the method of "managing" the society. If it were not for the Keystone and now TKM, I would have been gone long ago. In my opinion as a member with no voice in the management of the Society and wholly expecting this to fall on deaf ears, there are two issues which caused the decline in membership: 1) the attempt to save a few pennies by including the renewal notice in the fall Keystone and 2) the method of governing the Society which is designed to exclude rather than be inclusive. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:44:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Atmosphere From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:20 AM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Therein lies the crux of the problem. The society is an oligarchy. > Even the policies established by the BOD are not made known to the > members. And now you don't want members to speak of the so called > policies. How can you expect growth or even a stable membership > number when everything is kept a secret? Rich: This response it not a scolding of you, by any means, but is intended as a generalization. When I joined the Society circa 1998, the BoD was definitely a "cloak and dagger" operation, with hands clenched over all aspects of the Society, its archives, etc. -- and with futile and childish attempts to suppress anyone but the Society from publishing on the Internet. (LOL) Since that time there has been a dramatic shift in the makeup of the BoD, plus some changes in opinion by the remaining members. The change in the Society since 2000 or so has been very dramatic. As for policy, Al's point was that John was speaking out of turn. Only a member of the BoD should be citing policy. I think the fact that John's father is on the BoD provides him with some close information and that he felt comfortable making the statement . The mistake was that relationship does not give him the authority. Many of the "policies" of the Society are there for the taking. You just need to ask. I don't think everything needs to be written out in public. I have often made information requests of Chuck Blardone and Al Buchan and I have ALWAYS received an answer. There has never been an attempt -- that I recall -- for them to hedge or to hide information. The answer may not always have been what I wanted to hear, but the answer was provided, in a timely manner, and politely. Bottom line: If you think it is a secret, ask. If you don't get an answer, then you can make your case. One last observation: I've been known to rock the boat (who, me?) when I feel strongly that something is amiss. In 1999 I was told by a member of the BoD, in no uncertain terms, that I would NEVER be allowed to serve as an officer of the Society or any of its chapters. Last November I was nominated and elected vice president of the Northern Central Chapter. I did not seek or campaign for this position and, quite frankly, was caught totally off-guard by the nomination. I am more than happy to serve. And the BoD member who made that comment to me in 1999 is no longer active in the Society. The atmosphere has changed! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 09:51:53 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:58:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from. Is there anything currently available that contains such information? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080575898 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures fro= m.   Is there anything currently available that contains such info= rmation?
 
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080575898-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:58:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from. Is there anything currently available that contains such information? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080575898 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures fro= m.   Is there anything currently available that contains such info= rmation?
 
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080575898-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:00:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: > If everyone who is a member of the Society recruited one new member, > the > Society would be self perpetuating. And -- if there isn't one -- the PRRT&HS should develop a three panel brochure, including membership app, and save it on the web site as a PDF. It needs to be a marketing brochure. Why? Because I am proposing that layout owners print it out, fold it, and display it when they have open houses!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:23:32 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Glass half empty/glass half full: an opinion Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Rich, Al, John, Jerry, and the List: PRRT&HS may or may not be where everyone agrees that it should be on this scale, but all things considered, the group's leadership seems to be more accessible now than it's been since probably the earliest, informal days when it was the Pennsylvania Research & Information Association. I'll say up front that Al is a friend of mine so the next statement is colored by that fact--but he's one of the most approachable people you'll ever meet in this group. To our shame, that attitude was not always the case and there was a time when leadership wore clubbishness on its sleeve. That *did* drive people away. Do we have room for improvement? Yes. But is it better than before? Yes. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:52:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3A98AC20-819A-11D8-86B3-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: the PRRT&HS should develop a three panel brochure, including membership app, and save it on the web site as a PDF. The Society does have a membership brochure, I've mentioned it in several communications I've put out regarding increasing membership. They are available form Fred Shaefer, and the website does have a membership application. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:14:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Glass half empty/glass half full: an opinion In a message dated 03/29/2004 10:42:15 AM Central Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes: > But is it better than before? Yes. > Dan, That must be an understatement, I'd say MUCH, MUCH better than before. Al Stump --part1_138.2ced2580.2d99b358_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 03/29/2= 004 10:42:15 AM Central Standard Time, cupper@att.net writes:


But is it better than before? Y= es.

Dan,
That must be an understatement, I'd say MUCH, MUCH better than before.
Al Stump
 --part1_138.2ced2580.2d99b358_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:45:43 -0500 There are some in the standard plans collection on my website. To see just the structure related plans go to: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?type=STRU Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 10:58 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from. Is there anything currently available that contains such information? Thank you, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ ------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C41583.5E344740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
There are some in the standard = plans=20 collection on my website.  
To see just the structure related plans go = to:
http:= //prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?type=3DSTRU
 
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent:=20 Monday, March 29, 2004 10:58 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside=20 structures

I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side = structures=20 from.   Is there anything currently available that contains = such=20 information?
 
Thank you,

Evan Leisey
RCT&HS = 346
PRRT&HS=20 (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
------=_NextPart_000_0179_01C41583.5E344740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Increasing Society membership Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:48:21 +0000 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:06:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 12:48 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > That being said and needing confirmation it is too bad there isn't > some form of modular layout that could be taken to shows (particularly > in the east) and brochures on the society handed out. You can't tell > me that a couple of passenger trains (one pulled by a BLI T-1 and one > the Congo pulled by a GG1) wouldn't attract people. A four track > corridor layout with a couple of freights also and a brochure that > outlined the size and firsts of the PRR and a membership form could do > wonders. No, there isn't any official Society layout -- like the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS has, but some things are in the works... Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, has for years displayed N scale stuff at shows on a randomly created layout on top of tables. He has since invested in modules and permanently applied the track. He'll be getting out more and more with this. I'm sure he would display PRRT&HS brochures if they were offered. I am in the process of creating an N scale switching layout -- a Time Saver of sorts. When I display as a vendor it will be used to demonstrate DCC, Soundtraxx, and other products. But at other times it will just be used for fun... for switching puzzles, etc. (I've already gotten the contact info from Al about the brochures.) Does anyone else out there have PRR layouts they take to shows? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:39:44 -0800

 

 

=

All;

 

I read each and every e-mail on = this subject, and received some very insightful phone calls.  I think that the ideas you = came up with are outstanding.

 

=

First, I would apologize to those = that viewed this as a threat.  = Far be it from that, it is just a fact that a membership drop of this magnitude = will force the Board to do something about the financial situation of the PRRT&HS.  It would = affect a lot more than just TKM.  I was = shocked to read that someone would view our current predicament as something = that would warrant NOT renewing.  = That distresses me.

 

=

I would also encourage some to = re-read my original message.  There = are a few key points that I think some folks missed.  There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against = another.  I was pointing out that = non-renewals will impact the society, and that the society runs as a non-profit = organization.  Therefore, every non-renewal = hurts.  And you cannot blame to Board = for what they will have to do to remain solvent.  As I said, it will impact more than just TKM.   All I am asking for is = for folks to re-up, if they haven't already done so.

 

=

I was also very pleased to read = all the cogent comments on how we might overcome this current difficulty.  All of it was cause for a = great deal of thinking.  It was very = obvious that there is no majority opinion on what we should = do.

 

=

I have to state my personal wish = that TKM remains free.  I was very = outspoken about this back when we were getting this off the ground, and continue = to be.  I, with Al and Greg = and others, believed that we are attracting new members and getting some folks to re-subscribe, perhaps after a long absence.  It appears from the e-mail = that this was true.

 

=

It also appears that the absence = of a mailed renewal form was a very large = problem.

 

=

I have forwarded a copy of a summar= y of your comments, for potential review by the Board = members.

 

=

I want to thank each and every one = of you that offered to help, one way or the other.  It means a lot to all of us = that you appreciate what we are trying to do.

 

=

Keep the = positive feedback = coming.

 

=

 

=

Elden = Gatwood

Chair, Modeling = Committee

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C415CD.F7D46F70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:39:44 -0800

 

 

=

All;

 

I read each and every e-mail on = this subject, and received some very insightful phone calls.  I think that the ideas you = came up with are outstanding.

 

=

First, I would apologize to those = that viewed this as a threat.  = Far be it from that, it is just a fact that a membership drop of this magnitude = will force the Board to do something about the financial situation of the PRRT&HS.  It would = affect a lot more than just TKM.  I was = shocked to read that someone would view our current predicament as something = that would warrant NOT renewing.  = That distresses me.

 

=

I would also encourage some to = re-read my original message.  There = are a few key points that I think some folks missed.  There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against = another.  I was pointing out that = non-renewals will impact the society, and that the society runs as a non-profit = organization.  Therefore, every non-renewal = hurts.  And you cannot blame to Board = for what they will have to do to remain solvent.  As I said, it will impact more than just TKM.   All I am asking for is = for folks to re-up, if they haven't already done so.

 

=

I was also very pleased to read = all the cogent comments on how we might overcome this current difficulty.  All of it was cause for a = great deal of thinking.  It was very = obvious that there is no majority opinion on what we should = do.

 

=

I have to state my personal wish = that TKM remains free.  I was very = outspoken about this back when we were getting this off the ground, and continue = to be.  I, with Al and Greg = and others, believed that we are attracting new members and getting some folks to re-subscribe, perhaps after a long absence.  It appears from the e-mail = that this was true.

 

=

It also appears that the absence = of a mailed renewal form was a very large = problem.

 

=

I have forwarded a copy of a summar= y of your comments, for potential review by the Board = members.

 

=

I want to thank each and every one = of you that offered to help, one way or the other.  It means a lot to all of us = that you appreciate what we are trying to do.

 

=

Keep the = positive feedback = coming.

 

=

 

=

Elden = Gatwood

Chair, Modeling = Committee

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C415CD.F7D46F70-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:58:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures From: Jamie Bothwell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:58 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures=20 > from.=A0=A0 Is there anything currently available that contains such=20= > information? > =A0 > Thank you, > > Evan Leisey > RCT&HS 346 > PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 > CNJ > Evan, There is a book by Jeff Scherb of standard plans for PRR things. = Some=20 structures are included. He e-mailed me a couple days ago to say that=20= Volume 2 should be out this summer and it will be mostly structures. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--792530274 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:58 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures from.=A0=A0 Is there anything currently available that = contains such information? =A0 Thank you, 0000,0000,0000Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ Evan, There is a book by Jeff Scherb of standard plans for PRR things.=20= Some structures are included. He e-mailed me a couple days ago to say that Volume 2 should be out this summer and it will be mostly structures. Jamie Bothwell --Apple-Mail-2--792530274-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:00:16 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry and list, To answer the question in your last sentence below, yes, I exhibit this small PRR layout in Tallahassee and Dothan every year.. http://www.railimages.com/albums/greggmahlkov/acx.jpg It's only 2 ft. by 4 ft. in N scale, but I now run PRR turn of the last century steam on it. Gregg Mahlkov #7418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership > On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 12:48 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > That being said and needing confirmation it is too bad there isn't > > some form of modular layout that could be taken to shows (particularly > > in the east) and brochures on the society handed out. You can't tell > > me that a couple of passenger trains (one pulled by a BLI T-1 and one > > the Congo pulled by a GG1) wouldn't attract people. A four track > > corridor layout with a couple of freights also and a brochure that > > outlined the size and firsts of the PRR and a membership form could do > > wonders. > > No, there isn't any official Society layout -- like the Harrisburg > Chapter of the NRHS has, but some things are in the works... > > Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, has for years > displayed N scale stuff at shows on a randomly created layout on top of > tables. He has since invested in modules and permanently applied the > track. He'll be getting out more and more with this. I'm sure he would > display PRRT&HS brochures if they were offered. > > I am in the process of creating an N scale switching layout -- a Time > Saver of sorts. When I display as a vendor it will be used to > demonstrate DCC, Soundtraxx, and other products. But at other times it > will just be used for fun... for switching puzzles, etc. (I've already > gotten the contact info from Al about the brochures.) > > Does anyone else out there have PRR layouts they take to shows? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:47:09 -0600 From: Randy Subject: [PRR] PRR Structures From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:13:37 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Trackside Structures -Thanks! Thanks for the great response. I will be getting a book on these structures from Merchandise Service plus perusing the sites you all posted. Thanks a Million, Evan Leisey RCT&HS 346 PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036 CNJ -------------------------------1080602016 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Thanks for the great response.  I will be getting a book on these=20= structures from Merchandise Service plus perusing the sites you all posted.<= /DIV>
 
Thanks a Million,

Evan Leisey
RCT&= ;HS 346
PRRT&HS (Phila.) 2036
CNJ
-------------------------------1080602016-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:12:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I been talking with some friends about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint NKP-PRR Brocton NY to Buffalo NY line. Since many of us are members of both societies. It's still in the planning stages. Brian J Carlson P.E. Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Increasing Society membership > On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 12:48 PM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > That being said and needing confirmation it is too bad there isn't > > some form of modular layout that could be taken to shows (particularly > > in the east) and brochures on the society handed out. You can't tell > > me that a couple of passenger trains (one pulled by a BLI T-1 and one > > the Congo pulled by a GG1) wouldn't attract people. A four track > > corridor layout with a couple of freights also and a brochure that > > outlined the size and firsts of the PRR and a membership form could do > > wonders. > > No, there isn't any official Society layout -- like the Harrisburg > Chapter of the NRHS has, but some things are in the works... > > Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, has for years > displayed N scale stuff at shows on a randomly created layout on top of > tables. He has since invested in modules and permanently applied the > track. He'll be getting out more and more with this. I'm sure he would > display PRRT&HS brochures if they were offered. > > I am in the process of creating an N scale switching layout -- a Time > Saver of sorts. When I display as a vendor it will be used to > demonstrate DCC, Soundtraxx, and other products. But at other times it > will just be used for fun... for switching puzzles, etc. (I've already > gotten the contact info from Al about the brochures.) > > Does anyone else out there have PRR layouts they take to shows? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Message-Id: <1BC59A0A-81DB-11D8-A6F3-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] BLI E7's -- So Much For Pre-Pro Photos! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 18:45:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: You know those "pre production" E7 photos we were discussing the past few days? Well I just got my pro forma invoice from BLI with a letter saying they will be ready to ship to dealers in about two weeks. You fill in the blanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRTRAINS@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:49:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS (non-member take) Now your talking. Good point! --part1_1d9.1d8dfe2c.2d9a1e09_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Now your talking. Good point! --part1_1d9.1d8dfe2c.2d9a1e09_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Atmosphere Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 20:30:59 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2004 02:35:38.0280 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFC23280:01C415FF] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I must butt in here. I agree with all that has transpired. Because, I too, was "just hanging on by the seat of my pants. I know a few PRR modelers who "don't like the PRRTHS because of the way they operate the Society". But I am an independent thinker. Phooey! Since when do we, as individuals, have to follow the herd? We are all individuals who have brains. We must think independently and make up our own minds and make decisions that are best for US. Therefore, let those of us who are serious, keep doing what is best. The Society is NO LONGER the "oligarchy" or "anarchy" or anything of the sort. Al Buchan is doing one H... of a good job. And so are the others "behind the scenes". I can't even remember how long I've been a member (does the #1204 mean anything?). But the money has been very well spent. The return on investment is better than some mutual funds I own. LOL The Keystone is FIRST CLASS. The TKM is right up there. What more do you expect for $38.00 a year? I fully understand Jerry - one BOD member does not make the whole Board. And yes, the ones that aren't "friendly" don't really stick/stand around too long. And I've "been there", albeit in different circumstances. We must all simply keep on doing what is best - Best for the Society to keep it viable. And best for each of us as individuals. All IMHO as usual. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:00:56 EST Subject: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO brian@net.bluemoon.net writes: > I been talking with some friends about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint > NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY line. Since many of us are members of both > societies. It's still in the planning stages. > > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY Brian and all, I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12 show in malls a year. Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAINLINE modeler fan. I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^) Two tracks opens a whole new world in operations. I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-PRO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie-round module clubs. Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" brian@net.bluemoon.ne= t writes:


I been talking with some friend= s about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY=20= line. Since many of us are members of both societies. It's still in the plan= ning stages.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Brian and all,

I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the= marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12= show in malls a year.

Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAIN= LINE modeler fan.  I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and= should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^)   Two tracks opens a whole n= ew world in operations.  I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-P= RO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there= is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for=20= operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie= -round module clubs.

Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:00:56 EST Subject: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO brian@net.bluemoon.net writes: > I been talking with some friends about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint > NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY line. Since many of us are members of both > societies. It's still in the planning stages. > > Brian J Carlson P.E. > Cheektowaga NY Brian and all, I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12 show in malls a year. Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAINLINE modeler fan. I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^) Two tracks opens a whole new world in operations. I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-PRO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie-round module clubs. Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" brian@net.bluemoon.ne= t writes:


I been talking with some friend= s about a Free-Mo HO layout of the joint NKP-PRR Brocton, NY to Buffalo, NY=20= line. Since many of us are members of both societies. It's still in the plan= ning stages.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Brian and all,

I used to belong to a modular club while I lived in So Cal and I managed the= marketing for the association of no less than 13 clubs that did at least 12= show in malls a year.

Free-Mo is of great interest to me; however I am not a big SINGLE TRACK MAIN= LINE modeler fan.  I think the concept needs at least two mainlines and= should be call STEAMRA-PRO-MO... 3^)   Two tracks opens a whole n= ew world in operations.  I would be interested in beginning a STEAMRA-P= RO-MO (STEAM-ERa-PROtotype - MOdelers) system layout here in Oregon if there= is an interest. Based on the FRE_MO concept... I have some great Ideas for=20= operation and designs based on what I learned and hated from the old roundie= -round module clubs.

Greg Martin --part1_146.2599f0e6.2d9a4af8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 08:13:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: ealauterbach@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe:

I just want a couple of these without sound. Does anyone know of anyway I can buy just two of these cars? I don't want 6 of them.

Thanks,

Eric Lauterbach
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:38:58 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 09:12:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Keystone Modeler & Periodicals Database From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <4156FFF1-8254-11D8-B26A-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I've added "The Keystone Modeler" to the searchable periodicals database on Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/periodicals/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:15:45 -0500 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:43:44 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] LCL-7 Question Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:53:07 +0000 From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:56:43 -0800 From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 10:58:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben, Bob, Not that it matters in HO Scale but what other, if any, livestock would travel in the double deck K7a's? Chickens? Turkeys? I know some roads had Poultry Cars, I don't recall seeing any PRR Poultry cars. Baby Chicks and such used to be hauled in Headend cars though in little boxes with ventilation holes....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Sanborn Maps of Warsaw, Indiana Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 15:56:16 +0000 From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:21:09 -0500 From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars
From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com]
Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars From: b.hom@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI K7a Stock Cars Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:40:15 +0000 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] LCL-7 Question Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:32:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [192.168.1.1] at Tue, 30 Mar 2004 11:32:57 -0600 Message-Id: <20040330173257.TXDL1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, I'm not positive, but I think LCL-7 originated in Pavonia Yard (Camden, NJ). Dave Pfeiffer > > From: "Ted Andrews" > Date: 2004/03/30 Tue AM 09:53:07 CST > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] LCL-7 Question > > PRR Listers: > > Where did this train originate in the mid-1960's? In Mark Bej's site, this > train went from Philadelphia to Conway in 1959. By 1965, this train symbol > went all the way to Chicago. It typically was merged into one train with > LCL-1, whose origin was Harsimus Cove, NJ. > > I am postulating that LCL-1 and LCL-7 originated at Harsimus Cove and > Philadelphia, respectively. Both trains then merged at Conway for the trip > west to Chicago. > > Does this sound plausible? > > Thanks > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > P.S.: PLEASE RENEW your PRRT&HS membership!! I was one of the many that > forgot!! (I am renewed now) :-) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 13:38:49 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill Daniels writes: > Hi Greg, > > I've been interested in the FREE-MO concept ever since I first became aware of the concept...never did like the NASA-style modular concept (endlessly orbiting the layout...)< I could go into the differences in concepts but I won't as I think that it is time for a change. the club I ussed to belong to in So Cal was the forerunner for N_track and origainally owned bt Leo Campbell and the basis for the NMRA standards... Dated at best. >and I always thought that the single-track point-to-point concept always made more sense...but then I'm more an Elmira branch type of guy (other than Ken McCorrey who's got room for a 4-track mainline that actually does something?)< I too like the FREE_MO concept for branchline or modern modelers. Single track mainlines are not my cup of tea. That is why I would like to see a newer set of standards evolve from the FREE-MO concept but not so that the two couldn't mate. Aslo it seems that the scenery standards on many modular layouts seldom blend well. They also seem to get stuck on the 4-foot module sesign instead of 5-foot or longer which flows much better. Ever try to add a #8 switch to a 4-foot module in HO Scale... go figure. > But the idea does have merit...let's see if we can whip up any enthusiasm for this... Again I would love to see something serious develope base on PROTOTYPE MODELERS standards much like FREE-MO. I would be willing to talk... > Bill Daniels Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 20:06:34 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: My two pence-worth from the other side of the pond. Firstly: Has it been thoroughly established that the open to everyone TKM has impacted on PRRTHS membership renewals? Where is the evidence, if any? If it hasn't then I can't consider there is much of a problem to argue over. Secondly: If the TKM is causing a significant downturn on renewals then it seems to me that some form of remedial action is worth discussing despite the fact that a free for all, open access TKM is the most desirable option in an 'ideal' world. My suggestion would be to produce a 'Synopsis' of each issue, featuring juicy titbits of what the full TKM has to offer. This former would be open to all to view but a PRRTHS membership code of some sort would be required to get at the full TKM. I am not in favour of an extra charge for viewing the TKM as I'm sure it would mirror similar scenarios elsewhere with a rapid fall-off in interest. And, of course, none of us wants to see that happen. Regards, John H. Wright websites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and: http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: ; Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 9:39 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM > I read each and every e-mail on this subject, and received some very > insightful phone calls. I think that the ideas you came up with are > outstanding. > > First, I would apologize to those that viewed this as a threat. Far be it > from that, it is just a fact that a membership drop of this magnitude will > force the Board to do something about the financial situation of the > PRRT&HS. It would affect a lot more than just TKM. I was shocked to read > that someone would view our current predicament as something that would > warrant NOT renewing. That distresses me. > > I would also encourage some to re-read my original message. There are a few > key points that I think some folks missed. There is no big conspiracy that > pits one side against another. I was pointing out that non-renewals will > impact the society, and that the society runs as a non-profit organization. > Therefore, every non-renewal hurts. And you cannot blame to Board for what > they will have to do to remain solvent. As I said, it will impact more than > just TKM. All I am asking for is for folks to re-up, if they haven't > already done so. > > I was also very pleased to read all the cogent comments on how we might > overcome this current difficulty. All of it was cause for a great deal of > thinking. It was very obvious that there is no majority opinion on what we > should do. > > I have to state my personal wish that TKM remains free. I was very > outspoken about this back when we were getting this off the ground, and > continue to be. I, with Al and Greg and others, believed that we are > attracting new members and getting some folks to re-subscribe, perhaps after > a long absence. It appears from the e-mail that this was true. > > It also appears that the absence of a mailed renewal form was a very large > problem. > > I have forwarded a copy of a summary of your comments, for potential review > by the Board members. > > I want to thank each and every one of you that offered to help, one way or > the other. It means a lot to all of us that you appreciate what we are > trying to do. > > Keep the positive feedback coming. > > > Elden Gatwood > Chair, Modeling Committee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:31:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Tuesday, March 30, 2004, at 02:06 PM, John H. Wright wrote: > Firstly: > Has it been thoroughly established that the open to everyone TKM has > impacted on PRRTHS membership renewals? > Where is the evidence, if any? > If it hasn't then I can't consider there is much of a problem to argue > over. John: The discussion started with Elden Gatewood, chair of the Modeling Committee of the Society, stating that memberships had dropped off and that TKM was being considered as the culprit. However, quantifiable evidence was not offered. > > My suggestion would be to produce a 'Synopsis' of each issue, featuring > juicy titbits of what the full TKM has to offer. This former would be > open > to all to view but a PRRTHS membership code of some sort would be > required > to get at the full TKM. I am not in favour of an extra charge for > viewing > the TKM as I'm sure it would mirror similar scenarios elsewhere with a > rapid > fall-off in interest. And, of course, none of us wants to see that > happen. The "synopsis" idea has already been presented -- as an option ONLY if the BoD determines that the free TKM is having a negative effect on renewals. However, most think TKM is actually having a positive effect on renewals. Most think the inclusion of the renewal notice in The Keystone last fall was a mistake and that it should have been a direct mailing. It's not my place to elaborate, but you will be hearing more shortly. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:42:24 +0000 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] The Membership Renewal Conundrum and TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:52:59 -0500 Now that the dust has settled on this subject, or at least it seems to have, let me make a few comments. As Elden said in his most recent message about his initial message, which by the way was released with my approval, was not meant to be a threat - it was just a statement of fact that the Society was concerned about the downward trend of renewals and stated that some were questioning if TKM might be the cause, but that the manner in which the renewal process was handled might be the real cause. I believe many people did miss that main point of the message. The thinking by a few that brought this issue to a head was, now that all of this PRR material is being offered online there is no need for PRR fans to join the Society. Personally I believe that's an ill founded knee-jerk reaction. Frankly I have more faith in the dedication, commitment and enthusiasm of the membership to think that droves would drop out because they now have access to free material. I personally know at least a dozen folks that came back to the Society after a hiatus or joined new because of TKM, and I'm sure there's more. To reinforce another of Elden's comments in which he said, "There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against another." Remember in addition to being Editor of TKM, I also serve as the President and board member along with another board member - Associate TKM Editor Jack Consoli . However, as members of the board we must look out of the overall health of the Society not just one faction of its operation so it's really not a "we" and "them" situation. At any rate during the next couple of months the board will need to make some decisions on just what will happen to TKM. The three alternatives being considered are: 1) place TKM on a password protected site available only to Society members, 2) place TKM on a password protected site available only to subscribers (Society and non-Society), which is least likely, or 3) continue publishing TKM as we are now, making no changes. However, if we do place it on a restricted access site, for members only, we would continue to post a free two-three page "teaser" issue on the website. If I had my druthers I'd keep it on the Society's website as a free resource for not only the died-in-the-wool Pennsy fan, but also for those that model other railroads who need information on how to better model the PRR equipment that ran on their favorite road. The feedback garnered from the replies seems to indicate that many folks would be okay with TKM being on a password protected site. By in large most of the comments posted were positive and useful and those that were snipping from the sidelines seemed to be minimal. There are some folks still harboring ill feelings over the past sins of the Society's management and it seems they just can't shake it off. I hope that they will get over it and become a constructive contributor. Forgiveness works wonders for ones attitude and overall spiritual, mental and physical well-being. I know I've been there on other issues. As I privately told a couple of folks - if one is not part of the solution they are probably part of the problem. As I said many people offered constructive comments however, two members really showed their true colors. One volunteered to call all 600+ people that did not renew, at his own expense, and solicit their renewals. Another volunteered to pay for the cost to mail each nonrenewer a personal letter soliciting their membership. I was truly moved by the dedication express by both of these members. For everyone's information, each year following the annual meeting, member Walt Fidder, personally writes each member who failed to renew and solicits their renewal. He has done this for several years now and his level of success in getting people back is very good. It's his contribution to the Society for which he is receiving the Service Award this year during the annual meeting. Chuck Blardone and I made the decision to include the renewal form in the autumn edition. Clearly this was a mistake - but then again hind sight is always 20-20. It will not be done again. As a matter of fact we are considering using direct mail remittance envelopes for the 2005 renewals. There are several reasons why people have not renewed, they include 1) some don't read well, 2) some haven't even opened it yet, 3) some slit the plastic, slid the mag out and never pulled the form out that was behind the mailing sheet, 4) some tore the plastic off and crushed the mailing sheet and the form behind it putting it in the garbage, 5) some found it, put it on the "to pay" pile and haven't gotten to the pile yet, 6) some can't afford it, 7) some have stopped modeling the PRR (I personally know two of these), 8) some died, and 9) some have lost interest. I'm sure there's more (but I don't really need to hear them) - most fall into reasons 1-5. I'm hoping that these comments wrap up the subject and I personally hope it doesn't bring a raft of replies, I think it has all been said. Let's get back to modeling and talking about the real PRR. Thanx. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C41677.75F3D590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Now that the dust has settled on = this=20 subject, or at least it seems to have,  let me make a few=20 comments.
 
As Elden said in his most recent = message=20 about his initial message, which by the way was released with my = approval, was=20 not meant to be a threat - it was just a statement of fact that the = Society was=20 concerned about the downward trend of renewals and stated=20 that some were questioning if  TKM might be the cause, = but that=20 the manner in which the renewal process was handled might be = the real=20 cause. I believe many people did miss that main point of the=20 message. 
 
The = thinking by a=20 few that brought this issue to a head was, now that all of this PRR = material is=20 being offered online there is no need for PRR fans to join the Society.=20 Personally I believe that’s an ill founded knee-jerk reaction. = Frankly I have=20 more faith in the dedication, commitment and enthusiasm of the = membership to=20 think that droves would drop out because they now have access to free=20 material.  I  = personally know=20 at least a dozen folks that came back to the Society after a hiatus or = joined=20 new because of TKM, and = I’m sure=20 there’s more.
 
To reinforce another of Elden's comments in = which he=20 said, "There is no big conspiracy that pits one side against = another." =20 Remember in addition to being Editor of TKM, I also serve as = the=20 President and board member along with another board member - Associate = TKM=20 Editor Jack Consoli . However, as = members of=20 the board we must look out of the overall health of the Society not just = one=20 faction of its operation so it's really not a "we" and "them"=20 situation.
 
At = any rate=20 during the next couple of months the board will need to make some = decisions on=20 just what will happen to TKM.  The three = alternatives being=20 considered are: 1) place TKM on a=20 password protected site available only to Society members, 2) place TKM on a password protected = site=20 available only to subscribers (Society and non-Society), which is least=20 likely, or 3) continue publishing TKM as we are now, making no = changes.=20 However, if we do place it on a restricted access site, for members=20 only, we would continue to post a free two-three page = “teaser” issue on the=20 website. If I had my druthers I’d keep it on the Society’s = website as a free=20 resource for not only the died-in-the-wool Pennsy fan, but also for = those that=20 model other railroads who need information on how to better model the = PRR=20 equipment that ran on their favorite road. The feedback garnered from = the=20 replies seems to indicate that many folks would be okay with TKM being on a password = protected site.=20
 
By in large most of the comments = posted were=20 positive and useful and those that were snipping from the sidelines = seemed to be=20 minimal. There are some folks still harboring ill feelings over the past = sins of=20 the Society's management and it seems they just can't shake it off. = I hope=20 that they will get over it and become a constructive=20 contributor. Forgiveness works wonders for ones attitude and = overall=20 spiritual, mental and physical well-being. I know I've been there on = other=20 issues. As I privately told a couple of folks - if one is not part of = the=20 solution they are probably part of the problem.
 
As I said many people offered = constructive=20 comments however, two members really showed their true colors. One=20 volunteered to call all 600+ people  that did not renew, at = his own=20 expense, and solicit their renewals. Another volunteered to pay for the = cost to=20 mail each nonrenewer a personal letter soliciting their = membership. I=20 was truly moved by the dedication express by both of these = members.
 
For everyone's information, each = year=20 following the annual meeting, member Walt Fidder, personally writes each = member=20 who failed to renew and solicits their renewal. He has done this for = several=20 years now and his level of success in getting people back is very good. = It's his=20 contribution to the Society for which he is receiving the Service Award = this=20 year during the annual meeting.
 
Chuck Blardone and I made the = decision to=20 include the renewal form in the autumn edition. Clearly this was a = mistake - but=20 then again hind sight is always 20-20. It will not be done again. As a = matter of=20 fact we are considering using direct mail remittance envelopes for the = 2005=20 renewals.
 
There are several reasons why people have not renewed, they = include 1)=20 some don't read well, 2) some haven't even opened it = yet, 3)=20 some slit the plastic, slid the mag out and never pulled the form = out that=20 was behind the mailing sheet, 4) some=20 tore the plastic off and crushed the mailing sheet and the form behind = it=20 putting it in the garbage, 5) some found it, put it on = the "to=20 pay" pile and haven't gotten to the pile yet, 6)=20 some can't afford it, 7) some have stopped modeling the PRR (I = personally know two of these), 8) some died, and 9) some have = lost=20 interest.  I'm sure = there's=20 more (but I don't really need to hear them) - most fall into = reasons=20 1-5.
 
I'm hoping that these comments = wrap up the=20 subject and I personally hope it doesn't bring a raft of = replies, I=20 think it has all been said. Let's get=20 back to modeling and talking about the real PRR.
 
Thanx.
 
Al
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C41677.75F3D590-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:14 +0000 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:01:14 +0000 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:32:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <033020042201.28382.4069EE2A000C20AA00006EDE2160281302FF8D8D8F9D9B@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: is there any reason the Keystone Modeler couldn't release past articles to the general modeling press on a regular basis. We are currently in discussion with one of the major magazines that wants to run some of our articles in their publication. It would give the Society the publicity and the author some cash. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:37:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <033020042142.7242.4069E9BF000C910700001C4A2160281302FF8D8D8F9D9B@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: We could possibly use some form of display that involves the playing of a video that absolutely must be in color with a lot of action. A backdrop that has horseshoe curve, a large keystone, Penn Station, a GG1 or T1 and lots of color and baseball card type handouts with a picture of a typical PRR locomotive on one side and loco information and society information on the back. We have individuals that from time to time represent the Society at local shows. We did on occasion set up at Timonium. However, at the larger shows we have generally found that there is insufficient ROI. Shows away from home base are expensive and we do not have excess administrative funds. We also need volunteers willing to sit for hours and watch people pass by. All it takes is volunteers and money> Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:53:17 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: RE: [PRR] membership and the TKM From: "Stephen Connell" Subject: [PRR] Re: New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:30:07 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-ELNK-Trace: cc73afbc4bf82537e9ef466adc09f07e7e972de0d01da94008bb54b045570728b2ab83a895524a47350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It seemed as if the PA Trolley Museum table was very popular at the last Greenburg's train show I went to (in Pittsburgh). It doesn't address the renewal issue, but I think you would reach many new people by having a presence at these type of events. The baseball card idea is cool, but ideally you want them to sign up right there and then. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: New society membership From: Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:42:24 +0000 We in industry have the unenviable task sometimes of manning booths at a variety of shows. To that end there are companies that manufacture displays that range from a table top and backdrop type display that can be carried in a large mailing tube through room sized displays that cost a fortune. We could possibly use some form of display that involves the playing of a video that absolutely must be in color with a lot of action. A backdrop that has horseshoe curve, a large keystone, Penn Station, a GG1 or T1 and lots of color and baseball card type handouts with a picture of a typical PRR locomotive on one side and loco information and society information on the back. Each show could have a different engine and the set could be on sale at the booth for a minimal charge of say $1.00. That should more than cover the cost of the printing and shipping the booth. Above all the people in the booth need to be aggresive in pursuing people in the aisles and enthusiastic about selling the P ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] New society membership Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:54:05 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Al and list, As I said yesterday, I take my small N scale railroad to two shows per year.. I might to to Pensacola too if they ask me.. Since it is PRR oriented I would be willing to add a poster and membership applications to the Society to my display, along with the WGH giveaways I usually hand out. If I'm trying to sell model railroading, I might as well try to sell membership in PRRT&HS, too. While I'd prefer a poster sent from HQ, I could print one off from an image e-mailed to me.. If we could get someone to do this at every train show, the results might be sizeable. Anyone else interested? Gregg Mahlkov #7418 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] New society membership > Re: We could possibly use some form of display that involves the > playing of a video that absolutely must be in color with a lot of > action. A backdrop that has horseshoe curve, a large keystone, Penn > Station, a GG1 or T1 and lots of color and baseball card type handouts > with a picture of a typical PRR locomotive on one side and loco > information and society information on the back. > > We have individuals that from time to time represent the Society at > local shows. We did on occasion set up at Timonium. However, at the > larger shows we have generally found that there is insufficient ROI. > Shows away from home base are expensive and we do not have excess > administrative funds. We also need volunteers willing to sit for hours > and watch people pass by. > > All it takes is volunteers and money> > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 18:36:11 -0600 From: Dayna Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] New society membership From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: [PRR] Model Storage Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 21:21:55 -0500 From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Storage Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:03:29 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mark Taylor asked: My question is, the brass models that I have come wrapped in a plastic bag then surrounded by a foam insert, is this bag necessary?, and if so what type of plastic bag would be good to use. What is the bags purpose? The bag keeps the foam insert from reacting to the model's paint and sticking to the model. If this happens, it'll ruin the paint job. You can order replacement bags from Reboxx: http://www.reboxx.com/accessories.htm Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Original-From: "Dominic Mazoch" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 03:54:53 GMT Subject: [PRR] PRR Interest From: Dominic Mazoch From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 00:50:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Storage Mark the plastic bag protects the model from the foam. Newer brass models may not have this problem but some of the ones from the 70's and 80's had a problem with the foam deteriorating which ended up sticking to the brass item inside. Worst case I have seen is actual etching of the brass by the foam .Only way to clean up the model is complete disassembly and soaking it in laquer thinner to dissolve the foam. Alco models foam seems to be the worst culprit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken McCorry --part1_1e1.1ca3812e.2d9bb622_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Mark the=20= plastic bag protects the model from the foam. Newer brass models may not hav= e this problem but some of the ones from the 70's and 80's had a problem wit= h the foam deteriorating which ended up sticking to the brass item inside. W= orst case I have seen is actual etching of the brass by the foam .Only way t= o clean up the model is complete disassembly and soaking it in laquer thinne= r to dissolve the foam.  Alco models foam seems to be the worst culprit= . --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------  Ken McCorry


--part1_1e1.1ca3812e.2d9bb622_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Harry Fitch" Subject: [PRR] Plastic and Foam on brass Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:43:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Return-Path: prrk4s@msn.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Mar 2004 13:43:11.0518 (UTC) FILETIME=[1BC30BE0:01C41726] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Mark, I agree with you about the cost of brass replacement boxes. They can be very expensive. Concerning wrapping brass models in plastic, this is a really good idea. As a buyer of used brass I have run into my share of foam damage due to negligent or non existent wrapping to separate the model from the foam. The models of yesteryear were not packed with the thought that the foam would ruin the model and who is to say that the models packed in foam today are not the ruined models of tomorrow. I have not seen any manufacture of vintage brass that had foam that would not deteriorate in some fashion. A few of my favorite decomposing or dye killing foam examples are: Red Ball - Howell Day - total disintegration and infestation of the model with what now looks like ground foam for scenery. West Side Models - Their own version of Creeping Red Crud - the dye comes out and sticks to the model making it appear to have a tropical disease. When you see red in their box, look for more red on the model. Another variation- the old wrap the plastic around the model with the manufacturers print facing the model trick. I.E. "I now have a model with hundreds of little Daiyoung or PFM stamped names all over it". One has to be very careful to determine that the printed side on the plastic goes to the outside. I choose to replace it with plain plastic wrap on a model that gets handled often and place the originals under the foam so they won't get lost. (when you resell some folks buy the boxes it seams rather than the trains) Reboxx even makes their own version of the branded plastic so it can mess up things with Reboxx stamped all over it. Another thing I have done a few times to lower cost of re-boxing brass is to shop for used brass boxes. This may give some folks a heart attack, but I will for my own use, buy a used brass empty box and place another kind of model in it. A very good condition $8.00 box sure beats a $45.00 box any day. Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Plastic and Foam on brass MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: RE: Foam and Wrappers. Of course it is best to keep a model (at least your most prized possessions) in its original box when not in use. That way layout dust and display cabinet dust can't do any damage. But on the other hand, how and where the box with the loco is stored comes into play as well. It was mentioned that the foam from several older importers had problems. Gem Imports in my opinion is the worse. That stuff broke down and resembled a wet gritty sponge that did nothing but damage. ReBoxx sells the foam seperately as well so that is an option too. I also come across another problem. The plastic wrappers seem like a good thing but actually, may cause its own problem. Again, it depends on how the box is stored. You ever see plastic sweat? Not nice on a locomotive finish. Most newer importers (Key, Overland, Sunset, etc.) wrap their locos and cars, which are more or less 80% factory painted these days, with sheets of tissue prior to the plastic wrap. I have done this myself off and on for years after I had learned from someone else that it was best to do this. But in the end, it is the enviorment where the loco is stored is the long term factor. By all means don't store them in the boxes in a damp basement. You are better off leaving them on the layout if that is the case. Just keep them covered with newspaper or whatever when not in use.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:28:46 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Renewals, TKM and volunteers Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: "You are volunteers; now we're going to tell you how we want you to do your jobs." The small group of folks who put together The Keystone Modeler is a dedicated bunch. Let me urge caution those who are not involved in it (and who may have even opposed it) against some "executive imposed decision" that modifies TKM away from the creators' original concept without the active consent of those volunteers. I have seen it happen in too many organizations; "The Board" blithely volunteers one or more members' time, or imposes restrictions/constraints, or changes in direction. Yes, the Board has the right to do that (or many other foolish things), but it causes the volunteer effort to become less over time. The real question is, what do Al, Elden, Greg, Jack, et al. want TKM to be? Because they are doing the work, their opinions should carry greater weight than the opinions of sideline nitpickers. TKM has been well-received, and should not fall victim to organizational nonsense. Oh -- and back when I received my partially-hidden renewal notice, I immediately thought, "Oh, oh - they're going to have a response problem." It usually takes three notices to get best results in magazine-land. Vas you effer in Zinzinnati? Zee you dere. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:13 -0600 Subject: [PRR] New P&LE book From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:18:13 -0600 Subject: [PRR] New P&LE book From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] New P&LE book Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:36:48 +0000 From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:52:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 03/31/04 TO: Al Buchan and whoever is interested > > > I guess you're going to get a lot of "here's my two cents worth" so, here's > my two cents worth. > > TKM - password protected & members only. You idea about using a "teaser" > for the non-member was excellent. > > Definitely send a renewal notice in the U.S. mail. > Now a personal observation. Those of you who are so inclined, like me, need to get your two cents worth said and then move on to other things. I think "we" will have beaten this horse to death in another couple days. Long live the PRR & PRRT&HS!!! > ob Martin > --part1_51.3ca0e078.2d9c514e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
TO:  Al Buchan and whoever is interested


I guess you're going to get a lot of "here's my two cents worth" so,=20= here's my two cents worth.

TKM - password protected & members only.  You idea about using=20= a "teaser" for the non-member was excellent.

Definitely send a renewal notice in the U.S. mail.  

Now a personal observation.  Those of you who are so inclined, like= me, need to get your two cents worth said and then move on to other things.=  I think "we" will have beaten this horse to death in another couple d= ays.

Long live the PRR & PRRT&HS!!!

B
ob Martin
5911

 --part1_51.3ca0e078.2d9c514e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] New P&LE book Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:06:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <033120041536.19858.406AE5900006300B00004D922158766720FF929097D1@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ben, Re: the P&LE Freight Equipment Volume 1 Gondolas. The P&LE flyer sez early 1900s to the road's end in 1992. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Never mind the renewal form ... where the H..L is my Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:38:38 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, thanks for the reply. ON the subject of the renewal form ... if it wasn't for the PRRTHS website e-commerce pages I wouldn't have had a renewal form. April Fool's day tomorrow and I still haven't seen hide nor hair of the Keystone. Any other Brits in the group having the same trouble? Regards, JHW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "John H. Wright" Cc: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] RE: [PRR] Re: PRRT&HS and TKM > > Most think the inclusion of the renewal notice in The Keystone last > fall was a mistake and that it should have been a direct mailing. > > It's not my place to elaborate, but you will be hearing more shortly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:52:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Special Run -- N Scale X29 Merchandise Service Cars From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <1C91F804-833C-11D8-9137-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: The PRR X29 in "Merchandise Service" livery was used between freight stations for "less than car load" service. The paint scheme depicted was applied to X29 cars beginning in 1950. These cars typically ran in the LCL symbol freights but certainly could have been found elsewhere. Red Caboose has, to date, made two runs of 12 road numbers of this car. Many desire more road numbers, but sales of the second run of 12 numbers have stagnated (at Red Caboose) that a third run isn't likely any time soon. I have contacted Red Caboose and they will do a special run for me, of 12 numbers, if I commit to selling the entire run. So here I am...taking reservations to see if there is enough interest. I am taking the special run one step further and will supply these cars with MicroTrains trucks and couplers from the factory! The SRP has been raised (by Red Caboose) to $15.95 with their traditional truck and coupler and to $19.95 with the MicroTrains truck and coupler. I am offering reservations at 25% off. If you reserve a full set of 12 the discount will be 30% off. For details, please see... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-QuickShow?RDCAB-RN- 17026-SR ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:07:50 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] New P&LE gondola book -- includes PRR content Greetings to Don, Jerry and the List: I, too, saw a draft copy of this book, and was impressed by how thoroughly the book discussed the relationship between the railroad and its customer, the steel industry. The change from wooden to steel gondolas wasn't all about durability and maintenance of the carbody -- the steel industry was starting to load hot rolled steel in railroad cars while still hot. Obviously, a problem for wooden cars. Also, note that there's genuine PRR content in this publication -- P&LE bought a group of later PRR gondolas (50s-60s, I forget the PRR class) secondhand, and the book covers them just like those that were built new for P&LE by Pullman-Standard, Greenville, or Despatch Shops. In fact, one photo shows a former PRR gondola at Conway Yard, painted for P&LE. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ... admitting to being a former P&LE employee and therefore a onetime member of the Green Team. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: >It ain't PRR, but I know some of you, like me, are interested in other >northeastern lines, and the P&LE interchanged with the PRR, so here is some >info for you. > >The P&LRRHS will soon release "P&LE's Gondola Cars." I reviewed this book >for one of the authors and was much impressed. It is a class by class >discussion and is replete with photos. Of particular interest to me was the >number of photos of interiors and their loads. > >It isn't listed on the PLERRHS web site yet, but probably will be soon. If >anyone wants advance info, contact me offline. > > > >Don Harper >Marine Lab >Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston >Galveston, TX 77551 >409/740-4540 > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > --------------080302070603010806010100 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Greetings to Don, Jerry and the List:

I, too, saw a draft copy of this book, and was impressed by how thoroughly the book discussed the relationship between the railroad and its customer, the steel industry. The change from wooden to steel gondolas wasn't all about durability and maintenance of the carbody -- the steel industry was starting to load hot rolled steel in railroad cars while still hot. Obviously, a problem for wooden cars.

Also, note that there's genuine PRR content in this publication -- P&LE bought a group of later PRR gondolas (50s-60s, I forget the PRR class) secondhand, and the book covers them just like those that were built new for P&LE by Pullman-Standard, Greenville, or Despatch Shops. In fact, one photo shows a former PRR gondola at Conway Yard, painted for P&LE.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
... admitting to being a former P&LE employee and therefore a onetime member of the Green Team.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote:
It ain't PRR, but  I know some of you, like me, are interested in other 
northeastern lines, and the P&LE interchanged with the PRR, so here is some
info for you.

The P&LRRHS will soon release "P&LE's Gondola Cars."  I reviewed this book
for one of the authors and was much impressed.  It is a class by class
discussion and is replete with photos.  Of particular interest to me was the
number of photos of interiors and their loads.

It isn't listed on the PLERRHS web site yet, but probably will be soon.  If
anyone wants advance info, contact me offline.



Don Harper
Marine Lab
Texas A&M Univ. at Galveston
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--------------080302070603010806010100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: MicroTrains has announced a PRR H31B. Is it, or isn't it... http://www.micro-trains.com/rp_57100.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:35:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, List, Why do these companies insist on placing these rather rare slogans ie "Buy War Bonds" on their models? And who knows if this particular class of car even had it. Give me a normal everyday looking critter any day of the week. I didn't dive into the site for info but do they plan on producing a non slogan car too? Not that it matters, I don't even model N scale anyway. Just a pet peeve.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:52:30 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:04:31 +0000 From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Okay Hopper Experts... Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:12:31 +0000 Message-Id: <144763CC-8366-11D8-B903-000A9581CCA6@pennsyrr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: PRR-talk From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:52:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In the days before cars were specifically created for iron ore (like G39's, etc.) it was often run in hoppers typically used for coal. But, because of the density of ore, only a "scoop" was loaded directly over each truck, leaving the car largely empty. I recall a published photo somewhere looking down into a hopper load. In 1954 the westbound ore traffic really picked up with the opening of the new pier in Philly. "Pennsy Power" documents that M1's were the normal power until the end of steam, and the 1957 Trains issue on The Mountain shows several ore extras with helpers, etc. Question: The hoppers used in this service, might they typically have been H21a's? Or is there any reason H21a's would have been excluded from this service? At the time I believe the H21a was one of the most prevalent hoppers on the system. Stands to reason H21a's would head east with coal and return west with ore... at least until the ore cars were built. We've discussed the traffic in the past, but not down to specifics of what car classes were involved. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 18:35:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I have a photo of two M1s leaving Enola with a ore drag in 1954. The hoppers are the "GLa" class. It's a "looking down" shot from the Iron Bridge. One bucket full over each truck. Also seen photos of mid 1950s PRR ore trains with Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range ore cars. I'm not sure if PRR was using Bessemer & Lake Erie cars in the mid 1950s. But they did use them for ore service. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson Modeling 1961-1971 PRR-Penn Central ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:33:41 -0800 From: Jerry @ Pennsy [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Subject: [PRR] Hopper Classes Used For Iron Ore Traffic From: "DAVID FARLOW" Subject: [PRR] PRR Rushville Indiana Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:53:09 -0500 Does anyone know if the PRR had a passenger depot in Rushville. Some = have told me that the B&O depot located to the east of the PRR diamond = was used as the "tower" and a passenger ticket office by the PRR. That = depot was built in 1911. Would there have been any passenger trains on = this PRR line from Cambridge City / Dublin Junction at that point? David Farlow ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C41759.CA8664F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know if the PRR had a = passenger depot=20 in Rushville.  Some have told me that the B&O depot located to = the east=20 of the PRR diamond was used as the "tower" and a passenger ticket office = by the=20 PRR.  That depot was built in 1911.  Would there have been any = passenger trains on this PRR line from Cambridge City / Dublin Junction = at that=20 point?
 
David = Farlow 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C41759.CA8664F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "L. Heintz" Subject: [PRR] Hammerhead modeling info. Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:26:22 -0500 After conversations a while back regarding hammerhead models I got this = bit of info from the manufacturer of conversion kits. =20 "The hammerhead conversion kit is $12.00 plus $1.50 postage. Set up to = fit the" MDC RS3, but will go on Hobbytown, Atlas or Stewart. Specify LV = or WM as the corner Number boards are different. Guil MACK, Jr.=20 Tiger Valley Models 1070 County Road 23 "Phelps, NY 14532 " Also check this site for vintage photos by Bill Volkmer and shots of it = in LVRR livery. Make sure to check the topics at the bottom of the page. http://www.rochnrhs.org/rgvrrm_lv211.html Lynn ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C41766.D1C26EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
After conversations a while back = regarding=20 hammerhead models I got this bit of info from the manufacturer of=20 conversion kits.
 
"The hammerhead conversion kit is = $12.00 plus $1.50=20 postage. Set up to fit the" MDC RS3, but will go on Hobbytown, Atlas or = Stewart.=20 Specify LV or WM as the corner Number boards are different.
Guil MACK, Jr.
Tiger Valley Models
1070 County Road 23
"Phelps, NY 14532    = "
 
Also check this site for vintage photos = by Bill=20 Volkmer and shots of it in LVRR
livery.      =20  Make sure to check the topics at the bottom of the = page.
 
http://www.rochnrhs.or= g/rgvrrm_lv211.html
 
Lynn
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C41766.D1C26EA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger Trucks Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:07:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I am not in N scale, so I have no first hand experience with these = trucks. However, based on the photo, they appear to have the same distorted low profile of the Rivarossi and ConCor trucks in HO. If so, there is no prototype for them at all! I have several theories as to why this misshapen truck has plagued the = model RR world for decades. One theory is that AHM/Rivarossi originally = offered its cars with monstrously over sized flanges. To keep from raising the = car too high and having a noticeably oversized wheel silhouette, they = produced the truck with 31" wheels! In effect, instead of enlarging the flanges, they reduced the wheel tread. The result would have been that the = truck sideframe dragged on the track, so they reduced the height of the = sideframe! Now everything about the truck was wrong, not just the wheels. The other theory is that in the otherwise useful series of passenger car plans published in the 60s and 70s by RMC by Craig Bossler and George Trager, the truck diagrams were similarly distorted. I suspect it was a mistake made once and then copied on to all the successive plans. If = these plans became the reference source for Rivarossi, it could also explain = the G-d awful trucks we have had to replace ever since. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:53 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war=20 lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of=20 these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about=20 Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are=20 Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly=20 the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am=20 trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel=20 Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using=20 these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: RE: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:02:01 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <404E6E15.DF98B29E@comcast.net> Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: See also p. 43 of the newest "Keystone." -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 8:24 PM To: PRR-Talk; PRR-FAX Subject: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad In today's Inquirer's Local News (Philadelphia & its Suburbs) section on page 12, there's an article concerning the research being done by William Watson and John Ahtes, professors at Immaculata College, about the mass grave of 57 P&C workers at Duffy's Cut in Malvern, PA. The remains were placed in Malvern after the workers fatally contracted black diphtheria and is marked by a stone memorial. The professors are investigating if the location of the gravesite is correct based on papers inherited by Watson and his twin brother Frank. Their grandfather, Joseph Tripician, was the personal secretary to Martin Clement, President of the PRR. Mr. Tripician removed the papers from Penn Central's vault in 1970. Sounds like a good idea for an "Observation Car" tour. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:42:52 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:43:24 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:22:16 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Peter, I would be very careful in speaking ill of the one of an SPF'S m= ost revered locos. In some quarters this line of comment could get you tarr= ed and feathered Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Peter Weiglin=0D Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM=0D To: PRR-Talk=0D Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's=0D =0D Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high qualit= y. The=0D only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1=0D locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscap= e. The=0D Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomoti= ve are=0D indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would= it not=0D have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara=0D type engines?=0D =0D Peter Weiglin=0D =0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_4XEDCJD0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1"
 Peter,  I would be very careful in speaking ill of the on= e of an SPF'S most revered locos.   In some quarters this line = of comment could get you tarred and feathered <BG>  Jim
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Wednesday, M= arch 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM
Subject: [PRR] Key= stone and T1's
 
Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high q= uality. The
only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with informati= on on the T1
locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power lan= dscape. The
Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable loc= omotive are
indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, = would it not
have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson a= nd Niagara
type engines?
 
Peter Weiglin
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
 
.
--------------Boundary-00=_4XEDCJD0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:19:01 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Greetings to Jerry and the List: The Baldwin M1b engines 6700-6709 were striped for passenger service and equipped with steam lines, but were never permanently assigned. They consistently lost steam and failed on the road almost from the day they were delivered, though for some reason that the company never figured out, this didn't happen in freight service (nor did it happen with the M1s in passenger service). PRR intended to run them in through passenger service Harrisburg-Columbus, but they racked up road failures (20 minutes to an hour's detention was quite common) at least as often as T1s did a decade later. In the early 1930s, PRR assigned a road foreman to ride three of the M1b's to figure out a fix to make them work in passenger service, but eventually gave up. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. Jerry Britton wrote: > On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > >> There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for >> use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing >> this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. > > > Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, > so I will now cross post. > > According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's > initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) > were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for > the plain M1's. Anyone? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: [PRR] Pushers, was Re: Harrisburg yard Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 09:12:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-MDRemoteIP: 192.0.1.150 X-Return-Path: geshick@velocity.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Harrisburg yard ... > > Stauffer notes > westbound ore with two M1's at head and an I1 at rear on ore trains for > the whole trip over the Middle Division in 1954. > I've never paid much attention to it in photos, etc., but I seem to remember reading in a rule book or something that if a rear pusher was used, it should always be two locomotives at the rear. Am I remembering correctly? Was this changed at some point? ------- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Milk Cans From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 01:09 PM, Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > Can anyone venture an educated guess as to what was the last year that=20= > milk cans were transported on the PRR? =A0Would someone define "milk=20= > cars" for me please? =A0Were they reefers, insulated boxes, or plain=20= > boxes that carried milk in containers such as milk cans; were they=20 > tank cars specifically used for hauling milk? =A0Did PRR have cars=20 > specifically designated for transporting milk or were they generic=20 > reefers, insulated boxes, plain boxes? > > Yes, Jerry, you're right, I'm trying to determine how to supply the=20 > creamery and what detail stuff I'll need. I think it depends on the railroad, the shipper, and the receiver. I've seen tank cars and the like on New England railroads. I think on=20 the Pennsy it tended to be more along the line of reefers. In=20 Coloroso's book on the Elmira Branch (or was it Gunnarson's Northern=20 Central Railway?) there is mention of picking up milk cans along the=20 way. If each producer has only a few cans, then a reefer would do the job.=20 But if they were a huge shipper, tanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:38:50 -0500 Dave: THANK YOU for the information. I think that the case of the mystery = train symbol has been solved. I do have one question. What does the = "CB&Q Classification" mean? That the train was classified or blocked for = CB&Q or did it refer to the name of the train itself? "AC" may have been a symbol that the "Q" originated for this train and = the Pennsy adopted it. Perhaps "AC" on the CB&Q may have stood for = "Atlantic Coast." Interesting to note that this train (AC-1 and AC-2) ran on the PRR = throughout all of 1965 but was never mentioned in the ETT's. Ted Andrews P.S.: I better get more Burlington cars!!! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 8:25 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol AC-1 Gents..... =20 I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train operated between Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the merger. I have a wheel report for the train and it is a "CB&Q Classification" Most of the cars in this train are bound for the west coast. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C407C2.020D6A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave:
 
THANK YOU for the information. I think that the case of the mystery = train=20 symbol has been solved. I do have one question. What does the "CB&Q=20 Classification" mean? That the train was classified or blocked for = CB&Q or=20 did it refer to the name of the train itself?
 
"AC" may have been a symbol that the "Q" originated for this train = and the=20 Pennsy adopted it. Perhaps "AC" on the CB&Q may have stood for = "Atlantic=20 Coast."
 
Interesting to note that this train (AC-1 and AC-2) ran on the PRR=20 throughout all of 1965 but was never mentioned in the ETT's.
 
 
Ted Andrews
 
P.S.: I better get more Burlington cars!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net
To: PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 8:25=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRR symbol = AC-1
=

Gents.....
       &n= bsp;    =20 =
           &nb= sp;     =20 I found some info about PRR freight AC-1. The train
operated = between=20 Harsimus Cove and Chicago from the mid 60s to the
merger. I have a = wheel=20 report for the train and it is a "CB&Q
Classification"  = Most of=20 the cars in this train are bound for the west
coast. Hope this=20 helps.

Dave = Hopson

       =20 =


-------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C407C2.020D6A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: Milk cars Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:36:53 -0600 Photos of the wooden Supplee cars abound. The Pfaudler cars are also = well represented (can't remember which dairy or dairies) , in photo (see = the flyer with one of the sound LP albums if you can get one) and in = video. The National Car (I absent-mindedly referred to them as North = American Car) flats with tanks also in photo and especially video.=20 I'm not sure if I have seen the Borden butterdish cars in Pennsy = photos. But the R50b was well-used in this service, as others have = pointed out. There are also some early video shots which include what = appear to be milk cars from NYC-Rutland-New England roads in Pennsy = trains (see Herron videos). At least through the July, 1951 consists, milk cars were much in = evidence, including Chicago-New York on the Pennsylvania Limited. I = wonder how many of the R50b cars we saw in photos carried milk.One was = carried from Kendalville, Indiana in a freight and another from Berne = (Indiana?) in PH-3 and both transferred to the Gotham Limited at Ft. = Wayne, to train 96 in Pittsburgh. Consist data only, no photos from the = period that I have seen. How late the private owner milk cars appeared in Pennsy consists is yet = to be determined, though many of the above cars were still in the = January 1953 OR of Passenger Train Equipment. Specifically mentioned are = Borden (27 cars) , Bowman(29), General American Pfaudler (237), , = National Car (67), Supplee-Wills-Jones (9) , and Whiting Milk (4). =20 Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CENTGA@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: [PRR] re: Milk cars Bob, Have you found any photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it = probably happened but I don't recall ever seeing any in yard shots or = freight trains. Todd Horton ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C407C1.BC0B3470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Photos of the wooden Supplee  cars = abound.  The Pfaudler cars are also well represented (can't = remember which=20 dairy or dairies) , in photo (see the flyer with one of the sound LP = albums if=20 you can get one) and in video.  The National Car = (I absent-mindedly=20 referred to them as North American Car) flats with tanks also in photo = and=20 especially video. 
 
  I'm not sure if I have seen the = Borden=20 butterdish cars in Pennsy photos.  But the R50b was well-used in = this=20 service, as others have pointed out.  There are also some early = video shots=20 which include what appear to be milk cars from NYC-Rutland-New England = roads in=20 Pennsy trains (see Herron videos).
 
At least through the July, 1951 = consists, milk cars=20 were much in evidence, including Chicago-New York on the Pennsylvania = Limited. I=20 wonder how many of the R50b cars we saw in photos carried milk.One was = carried=20 from Kendalville, Indiana in a freight and another from  Berne = (Indiana?)=20 in PH-3 and both transferred to the Gotham Limited at Ft. Wayne, to = train 96 in=20 Pittsburgh. Consist data only, no photos from the period that I have=20 seen.
 
How late the private owner = milk cars appeared=20 in Pennsy consists is yet to be determined,  though many of the = above cars=20 were still in the January 1953 OR of Passenger Train Equipment. = Specifically=20 mentioned are Borden (27 cars) , = Bowman(29),=20 General American Pfaudler (237), , National Car (67), = Supplee-Wills-Jones (9) ,=20 and Whiting Milk (4). 
 
Bob Zoeller
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CENTGA@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 = 9:26=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] re: Milk = cars

Bob, Have you = found any=20 photos of milk cars in PRR trains? I know it probably happened but I = don't=20 recall ever seeing any in yard shots or freight trains. Todd = Horton=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C407C1.BC0B3470-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Specific gravity of milk and related topics Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:52:36 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: If you mean carrying milk, a good question. But don't forget they were converted to chemical use after milk service. That becomes another question (when and where---actually two questions) , not an answer :-) Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" > Of course this does little to help the fellow who wants to know if he > can park a Borden milk tank car somewhere on his layout. Sorry about that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Was L1's as Snappers, now "Keystone" inquiry Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:04:10 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gang, I seen two references now to the new "Keystone" and I note that its cover is on the Society's website as of March 6th. I just joined this January, should I be expecting one in my mailbox, or should I have gotten it already? Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Zoeller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:18:34 -0600 Jeff, those are separate line items: Pullman lettering (green car) and = PRR postwar. Not connected.=20 Bob Zoeller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: J. Smith=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 9:00 PM Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 12-1 sleepers The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline list the PRR cars as painted in = the Pullman Green Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War). What exactly does = this mean? I always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with = gold stripes and lettering. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40940.BDED50E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Jeff, those are separate line items: = Pullman=20 lettering (green car) and PRR postwar.  Not connected. =
 
Bob Zoeller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 J.=20 Smith
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 = 9:00=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR = 12-1=20 sleepers

The new 12-1 sleepers by Branchline = list the PRR=20 cars as painted in the Pullman = Green=20 Scheme Pennsylvania (Post War).  What exactly does this = mean?  I=20 always thought that the post war paint scheme was red with gold = stripes and=20 lettering.
 
Jeff
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40940.BDED50E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:34:31 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City and PRR Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:23:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Pullman Cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Mark asked: > After looking at Branchlines web site I didn't see anywhere that said the > cars were to be painted in Pullman green. As someone who is modeling the > 50's I hoped that the cars were going to be painted in tuscan > red,Pennsylvania on the letterboards,and striping above and below the > windows. So I looked in the Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Paint and > Lettering book published by the PRRT&HS and here is what I found. The body > should be light tuscan, roof and trucks-black, Letterboards 1948-1968 - > Pennsylvania, and striping ( one above window and two below) 1947 1/2 - > 1968 > being gold leaf or imitation gold enamel. Are we correct to assume that > Branchline's release will be decorated this way. Mark, I asked Bill this question directly and he replied that all of the paint schemes listed for owners other than Pullman will be in the post 1947 schemes, so the PRR cars will be as you describe. Note that the tuscan used by Pullman was more like the pre-war PRR color than the post-war PRR Tuscan, so the Branchline cars should come near to matching the pre-war Bachman P70sa or Walthers R50B (less brown, more red than the PRR Tuscan of the same period). Unfortunately, these scemes are useless for me but hey, I can paint and letter to my hearts content. Bill did indicate that he will be releasing the earlier PRR schemes with tuscan red and PULLMAN lettering. In addition, he is looking at the possibility of one of the "non-betterment" cars that got the two tone streamline scheme (aka FOM) such as Daniel Webster, but I'm not going to wait for him...that's going to be the first Branchline 12-1 I do ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class I1 tender population Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:49:01 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Harry--You asked-- > > Anyone happen to know what the most common tender class assigned to class I1 > locomotives would have been between 1947 - 1957? > I am looking at this from a total fleet standpoint rather than most > prevalent in a single area of assignment. > It would have to be the 90F82. There were also, of course, but not nearly as many, 210F82a/b (these had welded construction), 130F82 and 110F82 (mostly around Northumberland and the Elmira Branch), and a few 210F82 (rivets). >Another thought is what would be > the all-time winner for most numerous tender class used looking over the > lifespan of I1 class engines. This one for me is tough to surmise due to the > many flavors the class was assigned over their life. > Still has to be the 90F82. > >Another question, was > the 82" deck height changed or altered over the years for class I > locomotives? > No. They were built with stokers. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 From: Ed Workman Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic From: "Andy Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:23:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR R50b express reefers have a low profile for just that reason. = That's also why the X29 was chosen to for express service. Regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Ed Mentz Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:46 PM To: eworkman@arrival.net Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic geez... color me confused... I thought that the only access from the = west to NYC was from the north & east of the hudson... (except floating across). = I=20 thought that trains from the west had to go up to the Pokeepsie bridge, = now=20 long since burned out, and now all the way to Selkirk.. Sumpin about = the=20 Hudson river tunnels being to small fer freight????????? Ed From: Ed Workman To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC Milk Traffic Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:19:19 -0800 At 07:39 AM 3/15/2004, Hom wrote: >NOT TRUE. The Erie didn't have a direct connection into NYC My Point, exactly. If it comes to the river in a passenger train, why = wait=20 for a carfloat. And thanks for the Thompson-esque reply too ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - 4 plans to choose = from!=20 http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:37:00 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 17, 2004, at 09:24 AM, ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Broadway Limited Imports announces HO scale USRA 2-8-2 light Mikado > > Broadway Limited Imports, 601 Shenandoah Village Dr., Ste. 9E/F,=20 > Waynesboro, VA 22980, has announced that it will be releasing an HO=20 > scale United States Railroad Administration 2-8-2 light Mikado this=20 > summer. The model, which can operate on both Digital Command Control-=20= > and DC-powered layouts, will feature a QSI Quantum sound system,=20 > five-pole can motor with flywheel, die-cast metal locomotive and=20 > tender chassis, detailed tender underbody and cab interior, RP-25=20 > metal wheels, and operating headlight. Broadway Limited will offer the=20= > model with and without traction tires in two road numbers each of the=20= > following road names: Baltimore & Ohio, Lehigh & Hudson River Ry.,=20 > Louisville & Nashville, New York Central, Pennsylvania RR, Southern=20 > Ry., and Union Pacific. A painted but unlettered version will also be=20= > available. The manufacturer=92s suggested retail price for the model = is=20 > $299.99. This was actually announced several weeks ago and the info above is old=20= as they have updated it. The original plan was to release the full=20 slate of road names with traction tires and another full slate of road=20= names without traction tires. BLI has updated the product that it will ship with both in one box.=20 What is unknown, however, is what will be pre-installed on the model=20 from the factory. This is kind of like the T1 shipping with two sets of blind drivers,=20 but including flanged drivers in the same box. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 16:14:20 -0500 From: Mark Taylor [mailto:taylorsouthwood@msn.com] Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion. Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:38:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Rule Conversion Thanks From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > As always, I know that I can count on the this list's aid to get an answer > to one of my questions, thanks Bruce. Chris you are probably right about > buying a ruler to make the job easier, but at this time a little figuring > on > the calculator beat driving 20 miles to my local hobby shop. I will invest > in one the next time I'm there for sure. Thanks again Mark In addition to the scale rule, consider a scale caliper - it can really help out in a lot of situations. I know because I NEED one Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana (CORRECTION) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:41:19 -0500 PRR-Listers: I meant to write that this took place on June 29, 1965. Sorry! Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ted Andrews=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:49 AM Subject: [PRR] A new GE through Warsaw, Indiana On this date, the first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at Warsaw was = made. Engine No. 6501 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds = at 3:28 pm. Highball!! Ted ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40CBC.67349220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
PRR-Listers:
 
I meant to write that this took place on June 29, 1965.
 
Sorry!
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Andrews
To: PRR Talk
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 = 12:49=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] A new GE through = Warsaw,=20 Indiana

On = this date, the=20 first recorded arrival of a U-25-C at=20 Warsaw was made. Engine = No. 6501=20 lead AC-2 eastbound as it crossed the NYC diamonds at 3:28 pm.

 

Highball!!

 

Ted

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C40CBC.67349220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:54:42 -0600 Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy. See http://www.mrhobby.com/ for more. Pricey but great stuff! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Les Zody=20 To: prrtalk=20 Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: [PRR] cement (resin glue) Hi All, I have searched the archives and am not coming up with the thread = I'm looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a type of glue = that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think someone from = Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help = would be great. Ty for the help Les z ------=_NextPart_000_08A7_01C40CD7.6AE43860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Les--I think you want Cyanopoxy.  = See
http://www.mrhobby.com/  for = more. =20 Pricey but great stuff!
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Les = Zody=20
To: prrtalk
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 = 10:31=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] cement (resin = glue)

Hi All,
  I have searched the archives and am not coming = up with=20 the thread I'm looking for. Some time back there was a discussion of a = type of=20 glue that was said to be better than acc on resin kits. I think = someone from=20 Caboose Hobby may have posted it or knew about the product. Any help = would be=20 great.
=
           &n= bsp;=20 Ty for the help
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     =20 Les z
------=_NextPart_000_08A7_01C40CD7.6AE43860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jean Gagne" Subject: Re: [PRR] NF-6 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:47:25 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2004 17:47:15.0691 (UTC) FILETIME=[0CFFC3B0:01C40D11] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In 1960, livestock handled by FW-8 were feed and watered at Pittsburgh Stock Yards. Still in 1960, NF-6 eastern terminus was Harsimus Cove, but it did stop at Waverly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Ripley" To: Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:35 AM Subject: [PRR] NF-6 > Ted writes, about NF-6: > > > 1. What was the eastern terminus of this train? > > 2. How was it different from FW-8, a conventional live stock train? > > 3. What did Non-Feed mean? > > From previous posts (Bill Volkmer I think), I had the eastern terminus of > this train as Waverly, NJ. I am assuming that the "Feed-Water" monicker of > FW-8 meant that this train stopped to feed the livestock at some point (not > sure where). "Non-Feed" meant the idea was to get the train over the road > in less than 36 hours, which was the federal time limit for which livestock > could be carried without being fed/watered. > > Interesting it didn't run after April- it stays in ETT's for the following > years, and by 1967 in the Western Region ETT is allowed to operate at 60 > mph, like other hotshots. I wonder if it's operation was somewhat seasonal? > > Fred > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:23:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Norm, Most bulk wines were shipped in tank cars. Thomas used to sell a six compartment car in HO years ago. I still have it but the frame was Zamac and broke. Since this is PRR-talk I have an interesting story. I called on Roma Wine in Baltimore, which received tank cars from California. Well, the siding had a slight grade, requiring the crew to set the hand brakes on the cars. One time, the crew got too smart for its own good and parked the "empty' in Calvert St. Yard to see what was left - and it was almost 50 gallons. Wasn't long before any time an empty was pulled there was a "yard sale" off the back of the N6b of cheap wine. Wasn't long after that the the "revenoors" caught up with them. They lost their jobs, don't know if they served any time or not. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 9:09 AM Subject: [PRR] Wilen Brothers Co. in N. Philadelphia > Wilen brothers at MP 83.4 was a bottler of primarily California wines. Anybody have any knowledge of how these were shipped in bulk? I am assuming barrels in box cars but could one of those wine tank cars have shown up there on occasion? Thanks for any input. Norm Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:21:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kennedy Airport to Penn Station From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 18:41:41 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [151.199.98.55] at Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:41:41 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: You are correct , Franklin is down river, sorry for the error. Joy is Joy Mining Machinery now, Joy Technologies went by the wayside some years ago. Now part of Joy Global as is P&H, we are underground they are surface. www.joy.com . Plant is still very much alive. One of many we have. explain the humor you speak of. best regards, David Campbell Norton, VA ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: [PRR] Industries in Oil City area > --- William Bigler wrote: > > In the late ''40's early '50's there were still lots of refineries > > shipping petroleum products by rail in the area. There were lots > > of other industries in the area also. I lived in Franklin until > > 1950. I remember Pennzoil and Wolfs Head in Oil City. Was Quaker > > State also located there? > > Yes. "The Big Q". They too bailed out some years ago. I think, but am > not sure, that Quaker State and Pennzoil merged, or both were > swallowed by something else. > > > Franklin, just up the Allegheny River, > > Down the river, actually. > > > .... Joy Manufacturing.... > > They are still in business, but not sure whether they still have a > > factory in Franklin. > > I think they now call themselves Joy Technologies (which can be a > source of humor if you think about it carefully). Last I was there a > long time ago the Franklin factory looked deserted, but not derelect. > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bennett Levin" Subject: Re: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 09:04:09 -0800 JH was on the north side of the railroad on the east side of Henderson = (I think) street. It was on the south side of 6th Street. To my = recollection it was a Brick tower and might have had either a copper = roof or copper bay window. Further east I seem to recall a sand tower. Directly opposite the tower on the south side (The side the tower faced) = was a team track at the foot of 5th Street with a full overhead crane. = The next structure to the south on the east side of Henderson Street was = a fairly modern frieght station (yard office) for "Ballground Yard". Bennett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: [PRR] Harsimus Cove? In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the Erie milk cars = =3D were stored on a siding on the South side of Pavonia Avenue in = Jersey =3D City east of the grade crossing and opposite the enginehouse and the = =3D terminal throat which were on the north side of Pavonia Ave. All = this =3D was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus Cove.=3D20 I have to ask the stupid question "what did JH tower look like?" I = was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a tower with what looked like = copper roofing on it. Was I at JH? I know from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has = suffered massive redevelopment. I assume the only thing recognizable = from the whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on = the waterfront and is again lit. PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to Colgate's Jeffersonville = IN works, and remains atop the factory just east of the PRR's mile-long = Ohio River Bridge. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C40F23.7859F590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
JH was on the north side of the = railroad on the=20 east side of Henderson (I think) street. It was on  the south side = of 6th=20 Street. To my recollection it was a Brick tower and might have had = either a=20 copper roof or copper bay window. Further east I seem to recall a sand=20 tower.
 
Directly opposite the tower on the = south side (The=20 side the tower faced) was a team track at the foot of 5th Street with a = full=20 overhead crane. The next structure to the south on the east side of = Henderson=20 Street was a fairly modern frieght station (yard office) for "Ballground = Yard".
 
 
Bennett
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 = 9:31=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Harsimus = Cove?

In a message dated 3/12/04 4:31:29 = PM Eastern=20 Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:

RE: [PRR] Milk CansFrom very clear recollection, the = Erie =20 milk cars =3D
were stored on a siding on the South side of = Pavonia Avenue=20 in Jersey =3D
City east of the grade crossing and opposite the = enginehouse=20 and the =3D
terminal throat which were on the north side of = Pavonia Ave.=20 All this =3D
was insight of the PRR's JH tower at Harsimus=20 Cove.=3D20


I have to ask the stupid question = "what did=20 JH tower look like?"  I was once taken to Harsimus Cove and saw a = tower=20 with what looked like copper roofing on it.  Was I at = JH?

I know=20 from looking at more recent maps that the site of all this has = suffered=20 massive redevelopment.  I assume the only thing recognizable from = the=20 whole area is the Colgate-Palmolive clock, which was reset on the = waterfront=20 and is again lit.

PS - the clock that one replaced was moved to = Colgate's Jeffersonville IN works, and remains atop the factory just = east of=20 the PRR's mile-long Ohio River Bridge.

Rick Tipton - = Louisville=20 KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical=20 Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR = Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C40F23.7859F590-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:03:35 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] MTH Milk Train Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dominic Mazoch wrote: > > MTH is making a LIRR milk train. Has 2 DD-1's, and 3-4 Shepfield milk cars. O guage 3R with PS-2. Can't run it because it is way beyond )-31 curves, and the cost..... > > Dominic Mazoch Dominic, Both the DD1 and reefers are O-31. I bought a PRR DD1 last year and have no problems with it taking O-31 track along with O-22 Lionel switches. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Form 76, 1884 Edition, Posted Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:39:52 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <01471CC0-7CD6-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Form 76 posting It's actually more like the equivalent of a CT1000E rather than the system wide CT1000, as it doesn't include Lines West. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Burkey" Subject: [PRR] Email or mailing address for Richard D. Adams? Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:19:23 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <0BBFD900-7CF8-11D8-B6EA-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I'm wondering if anyone on this list can provide for me an email or postal mailing address for Richard D. Adams. I've been looking for a current address for him for awhile and have been striking out. I'd like to contact him regarding the research work he's done on the Bedford Branch as well as his compilation work regarding the Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain's locomotive roster. I'm even willing to provide him my address if he'd like to contact me instead. Please contact me off-list if you can help. Thanks, Keith Burkey Keith Burkey http://www.bbandbrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: PRR-Talk LIST From: David Wartell Subject: Re: [PRR] Caboose to Get New Home Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 18:38:20 -0500 To: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry & the group, I am going to miss the cabin car when they move it, I live about a mile or so from the township building and pass the cabin car every day on the way to and from work. It has been nice seeing that little piece of the Pennsy sitting there. The funny thing about it is that West Hanover only detailed one side of the car. The side facing the road, US Route 22, is lettered while the other side is not. I guess I need to get over there and take those pictures before they move it. Dave Wartell djwartel@comcast.net On Mar 23, 2004, at 2:14 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > Caboose to get new home > E. Pennsboro hopes to use car to honor Enola Yards > > Tuesday, March 23, 2004 > > BY PHYLLIS ZIMMERMAN > For The Patriot-News > > West Hanover Twp.'s caboose will soon be honoring the historic Enola > Railroad Yards at its new home in East Pennsboro Twp. > > That represents a detour from a proposal that would have moved the > caboose to the Lykens Railroad Station. > > After months of considerations by officials, the vintage Pennsylvania > Railroad car has seen a lot of mileage -- and it hasn't left the yard > of the West Hanover Twp. municipal building. > > West Hanover Twp. supervisors voted unanimously last week to donate > the caboose in response to a proposal submitted by East Pennsboro Twp. > Manager Robert Gill. > > East Pennsboro commissioners agreed to make the offer March 3. East > Pennsboro officials plan to place the 1942 railroad car in Adams-Ricci > Community Park at Margo Road and East Penn Drive. > > "When you really boil it down, this is the kind of project we were > hoping to get. This is the perfect ending for this long saga," said > West Hanover Supervisor Robert Ziltz. > > West Hanover Twp. has owned the caboose for more than a decade, but > has sought to move it for months. > > Although West Hanover officials had hoped to rent out the caboose for > festive events such as children's birthday parties, those plans never > really took off, officials said. > > East Pennsboro recently acquired an additional 42 acres for the > Adams-Ricci Community Park, expanding it to a spacious 120-plus acres, > including baseball and soccer fields, and tennis, volleyball and > basketball courts. > > The Historical Society of East Pennsboro Twp., in conjunction with > township officials, is planning a 100th anniversary celebration of the > Enola Railroad Yards in 2005. > > The facility opened in 1905 and utilized up to 67 tracks on 375 acres > at its peak, remaining the township's largest employer until the > 1950s. > > "The caboose would be a great attraction to our festivities. We are a > very proud community, and the railroad is a symbol of our heritage > these last 100 years," said Herb Kruger, president of the historical > society. > > In January, Edward Carney, chairman of the Dauphin County Planning > Commission, asked West Hanover supervisors to grant rights to the > caboose to Lykens Railroad Station. > > The historic station is being renovated into a rail museum with a > nearby trail, a project overseen by the Dauphin County Parks and > Recreation department. > > Although West Hanover officials said they were enthusiastic about > Carney's proposal, it never officially was endorsed by Dauphin County > Commissioners -- and therefore lacked county funding -- by the > township's March 12 bid deadline. > > West Hanover Twp. Manager Michael Rimer said he contacted the county > several times over the winter regarding the caboose. > > "The county was not interested in acquiring a caboose," he said. > > The township also received an offer March 8 from the Lykens Chamber > of Commerce to "relocate the caboose in a very timely manner" to the > Lykens Train Station. > > County commissioners notified West Hanover in a March 12 fax that > they were endorsing "Lykens in its quest to obtain [the] caboose." > > West Hanover supervisors said their first choice had been to donate > the caboose to a municipality. > > East Pennsboro plans to move the caboose to its new site by July. > > West Hanover bought the car in 1993 for $13,910. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Cc: "prr-talk" From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR regions Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 18:05:35 -0500 To: "J. Smith" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 5:12 PM, J. Smith wrote: > Would someone please explain to me where the Central Region and the > Eastern Region are. Text descriptions at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/prr_structure_1941-1968.html 1941 Division maps, which hint at regions at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/accountingmaps.ws4d A very vague description is that from Altoona east is the Eastern Region. The Central Region goes from there to beyond Pittsburgh. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:52:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI E7 Photos Posted MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, Yep, looks like some horn shaving is in store for future owners of the E7's, unless you can convince them to do it prior to the release....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work! PRR K4s Loco Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/ PRR G5s, T1, J1 J1a, M1, M1a, N1s, etc. etc.: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, P&LE Pics, PRR Memorabilia and Misc. Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jerry @ Pennsy Subject: [PRR] Re: Comments on BLI E7's Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:52:57 -0500 To: PRR-talk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Mar 24, 2004, at 8:47 PM, Jerry @ Pennsy wrote: > Now that BLI has posted photos of their HO models, we can identify > that the model most closely reflects the second and third batches of > PRR orders... The BLI road numbers are also from these batches. And I noticed that there are (correctly) two exhaust stacks for the steam generators. A lot of predecessor models only have one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:05:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Loco Models Road Number Size From: Jerry Britton In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 09:21 AM, Jerry Britton wrote: > However, when I compare the output to existing Kato or Life Like > models, my type is smaller. I don't have anything that can measure > accurately at that size, but either the computer is doing something > amiss, or the Kato and Life Like numbers are scaled about 12" or so. > Anyone know? We have an answer! When you tell Adobe Illustrator (the software I was using) to set the type to a specific height, it is setting not only the height of the character, but also the white space that would appear between lines. In my test font, if I set type to be 1" high, it would actually be less. I had to set it to be 1.45" high to actually get a 1" height. So, I'll need to keep this in mind when creating N scale 8", 6", and 4.5" (car names) lettering. The good news is I can make them larger than I thought! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS New England Chapter Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:42:57 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Just a reminder for those of you who are (or would like to become) = members of the PRRTHS and live in New England, we are forming a New England Chapter. We will be meeting at the Northshore Model RR Club (http://www.nsmrc.org) 17 April, starting about 11 AM. The club is in Wakefield MA. Some (hopefully) brief business to agree on a charter, officers and a name and then on to the fun. The NS Club is a large, = very well sceniked HO RR set in coal hauling country but including 2 and 3 = track mains for great distances. It is about 11 miles long. Bring down your = Penny models and see them run in this great environment. We can do both DC = and DCC. Time to show off. The club's website has a map and directions. Be there! Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS help; important; please read Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:39:50 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Mar 2004 20:40:53.0908 (UTC) FILETIME=[A20B8540:01C41372] Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I must disagree with PDF only. Remember that all don't have the latest PC's. Example: It takes me somewhere around 30 minutes to download with a modem. Those who wish to download HTML should have that available. What about those who don't have HTML and only Text? I'm not the computer whiz, so I guess what I'm saying is - KISS. Keep It Simple! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, Proud SPF PRRTHS #1204 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 03/05/2004 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Fred123R@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 21:08:26 EST Subject: re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Renewal I completely missed the renewal when it was originally included in the Keystone. I saw the notice published in the following issue, and followed the procedures to renew online. Based on my experience, I would guess that at least a portion of the nonrenewals were people who simply missed the form. Before renewing online, I went back to the previous issue and looked for the form, but couldn't find it. I don't know if it was outside the magazine as a seperate form. If it was, I must have chucked it by accident. I can understand how those who aren't online would have trouble renewing if they missed the form. In regards to TKM: 1) I love it. Is it the reason I joined the Society, no, because I joined well before it was ever started. But I would never quit the Society just because TKM is free. As both an active modeler and someone interested in the prototype history, I appreciate the outstanding articles and information provided in TKM. For me, it enhances my appreciation of the prototype, and provides specific information that cannot and probably would not be found elsewhere. It would be a terrible loss for it to go away. I thank the article contributors and those involved with publishing it for their commitment to providing a quality publication, and for helping me learn and enjoy my hobby. (Ditto that for the Keystone, but we're focused on TKM right now) 2)I would support paying for TKM and/or making it a restricted "members only" extra. TKM should be a reason to join the Society, not quit. I'll admit that I don't understand the attitudes of "I'm only interested in prototype info and will only belong to the Society if that's all that is included in the Keystone" or "I'm only interested in modeling information and will not join the Society because I can get the modeling info for free." I'm not criticizing, I just don't understand. Of course, my view is that as an American, it is my duty to vote in every election. Likewise, as a PRR fan and legacy, it is my obligation to join the PRRT&HS to support its mission. I think TKM could be used to bring new members into the Society and expose Society members who are not modelers to high quality modeling articles. Maybe that would get them started in modeling. For the record, I'm not an ex-employee, and I am under 40. Fred Ross -------------------------------1080353306 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
I completely missed the renewal= when it was originally included in the Keystone.  I saw the notice pub= lished in the following issue, and followed the procedures to renew online.&= nbsp; Based on my experience, I would guess that at least a portion of=20= the nonrenewals were people who simply missed the form.  Before renewin= g online, I went back to the previous issue and looked for the form, but cou= ldn't find it.  I don't know if it was outside the magazine as a sepera= te form.  If it was, I must have chucked it by accident.  I can un= derstand how those who aren't online would have trouble renewing if they&nbs= p;missed the form. 
 
In regards to TKM: 
 
1) I love it.  Is it the r= eason I joined the Society, no, because I joined well before it was ever sta= rted.  But I would never quit the Society just because TKM is= free. As both an active modeler and someone interested in the prototyp= e history, I appreciate the outstanding articles and information provided in= TKM.  For me, it enhances my appreciation of the prototype, and provid= es specific information that cannot and probably would not be found elsewher= e.  It would be a terrible loss for it to go away.  I thank the ar= ticle contributors and those involved with publishing it for their commitmen= t to providing a quality publication, and for helping me learn and enjoy my=20= hobby.  (Ditto that for the Keystone, but we're focused on TKM right no= w)
 
2)I would support paying for TK= M and/or making it a restricted "members only" extra.  TKM should be a=20= reason to join the Society, not quit. 
 
I'll admit that I don't underst= and the attitudes of "I'm only interested in prototype info and will only be= long to the Society if that's all that is included in the Keystone" or "I'm=20= only interested in modeling information and will not join the Society becaus= e I can get the modeling info for free."  I'm not criticizing, I just d= on't understand.  Of course, my view is that as an American, it is my d= uty to vote in every election.  Likewise, as a PRR fan and legacy, it i= s my obligation to join the PRRT&HS to support its mission. =
 
I think TKM could be used to br= ing new members into the Society and expose Society members who are not= modelers to high quality modeling articles.  Maybe that would&nbs= p;get them started in modeling.  For the record, I'm not an ex-employee= , and I am under 40.
 
 
Fred Ross
-------------------------------1080353306-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron & Marilyn Mele" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:01:47 -0600 >Bob N. and others, about 2 miles up stream from Oil City at = >Rouseville the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it = >splits to each side of the creek from there to Titusville. Was >there = that much traffic 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage >or did the NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What is the = rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City ?? The line on the west bank of Oil Creek was the Oil Creek Railroad, built = in 1862. It became the Oil Creek and Allegheny River Railway in 1868. In = 1870, the OC&AR built a line on the east bank of Oil Creek and named it = the Titusville and Petroleum Center Railroad. It was renamed the = Titusville and Oil City railway in 1878 and was completed from = Titusville to Pioneer in 1880. Paul Pietrak's WNY&PA book says the line = was built on the east bank to keep the New York Central affiliated lines = at Titusville and Oil City from making a direct connection. During the = time the WNY&PA operated between Titusville and Oil City, the east bank = line was rarely used. When the PRR took over in 1900, they make use of = both lines and in 1916, the eastern line became the main line. The = western line was abandoned in 1933 and is now a hiking/biking trail in = Oil Creek State Park. The rail line you refer to on the east side of Oil = City is probably the Oil City & Ridgeway Railroad which was built in = 1876. It served a coal mine in Cranberry, located about 6 miles from Oil = City. The grade between Oil City and Cranberry was very steep and in = 1883, a coal train went out of control and derailed coming down the = hill. The accident resulted in several deaths and the line was shut down = in the aftermath.=20 Hope this helps. Ron Mele ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4137D.EEFCC840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
>Bob N. and others,  =  about 2=20 miles up stream from Oil City at >Rouseville the line goes to double track to near Pioneer where it >splits to = each side of=20 the creek from there to=20 Titusville. Was >there that = much traffic=20 70 years ago to warrant all the trackage
 >or did the=20 NYC go up there to its line at Titusville ?? What=20 is the rail line going up the hill above the east side of Oil City=20 ??
 
The line on the west bank of Oil Creek = was the Oil=20 Creek Railroad, built in 1862. It became the Oil Creek and Allegheny = River=20 Railway in 1868. In 1870, the OC&AR built a line on the east bank of = Oil=20 Creek and named it the Titusville and Petroleum Center Railroad. It = was=20 renamed the Titusville and Oil City railway in 1878 and was completed = from=20 Titusville to Pioneer in 1880. Paul Pietrak's WNY&PA book says the = line was=20 built on the east bank to keep the New York Central affiliated lines at=20 Titusville and Oil City from making a direct connection. During the time = the=20 WNY&PA operated between Titusville and Oil City, the east bank line = was=20 rarely used. When the PRR took over in 1900, they make use of both lines = and in=20 1916, the eastern line became the main line. The western line was = abandoned in=20 1933 and is now a hiking/biking trail in Oil Creek State Park. = The rail=20 line you refer to on the east side of Oil City is probably the Oil City = &=20 Ridgeway Railroad which was built in 1876. It served a coal mine in = Cranberry,=20 located about 6 miles from Oil City. The grade between Oil City and = Cranberry=20 was very steep and in 1883, a coal train went out of control and=20 derailed coming down the hill. The accident resulted in several = deaths and=20 the line was shut down in the aftermath.
Hope this helps.
Ron Mele
 
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C4137D.EEFCC840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "DON MURPHY" Subject: RE: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:34:45 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.7.165.29] at Sat, 27 Mar 2004 23:34:46 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: It's a K2/3 shell. I was going to build on into a K3 some years ago until I saw a Westside K3 and realized that there was no way I could approach the Westside in looks. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division Circa 1946 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:] On Behalf Of Harry Fitch Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:53 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? Possible K2 cast boiler shell on eBay? FYI- I am not interested in this item but it may be of interest to others on the list. CAST METAL PENNSY STEAM ENGINE SHELLW/BRASS Item number: 3184438640 I asked the seller a question about length and this is the reply. The shell is 6.1" from the smoke box front to the cab sidewall. By the way the smokebox front is a brass casting. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3184438640 Harry Fitch prrk4s@msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:57:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone available at hobby shops? Phil Balles writes: > List > > Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent > Klein's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O / New > Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, yet they are > available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as strange that > the Keystone was not included (this in a city where > the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a > few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing > it's exposure to the masses? > Regards, > Phil Balles Phil and all, I have ask the same in the past and have gotten no response. Strategically place this would be a great way to increase the "desire" but again it has been said albeit not to me that if one could buy The Keystone over the counter what would be the use of joining. I view this as the old "eye plugs in and blinders on" approach to marketing. People joint because of the community that is created ... not the goodies they receive. I believe that a few strategically placed "FREE" copies of The Keystone in the HIGH SCHOOL Libraries of the Pittsburgh school district, the Philadelphia School district would add a great seed pod from our tree... Just remember what my Jewish grandfather Ike Freeman reminded me... " idol hands are the Devil's workshop..." Greg RATSO Martin --part1_60.3cc53f6f.2d987a2e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Phil Balles writes:

List

Another point on circulation - I live in the Baltimore area and frequent Kle= in's - they carry at least 4 -5 historical society pubs (N&W / C&O /= New Haven / Reading etc). None of these railroads ran through Baltimore, ye= t they are available in a Baltimore hobby shop. It has always struck me as s= trange that the Keystone was not included (this in a city where
the PRR had a large presence). Why doesn't our society distribute at least a= few issues of the Keystone to hobby shops, in hopes of at least increasing=20= it's exposure to the masses?
Regards,
Phil Balles


Phil and all,

I have ask the same in the past and have gotten no response. Strategically p= lace this would be a great way to increase the "desire" but again it has bee= n said albeit not to me that if one could buy The Keystone over the counter=20= what would be the use of joining.  I view this as the old "eye plugs in= and blinders on" approach to marketing. People joint because of the communi= ty that is created ... not the goodies they receive.

I believe that a few strategically placed "FREE" copies of The Keystone in t= he HIGH SCHOOL Libraries of the Pittsburgh school district, the Philadelphia= School district would add a great seed pod from our tree...

Just remember what my Jewish grandfather Ike Freeman reminded me... " idol h= ands are the Devil's workshop..."

Greg RATSO Martin --part1_60.3cc53f6f.2d987a2e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone/PRR T&HS issues Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:48:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Bill and gents, I thank you Bill for bringing up a continuous point with Keystone content and the work in general. Chuck can only publish what he has availible. Members of the list brought up the articles on the T1 are a currently re-occuring theme. If a person wants to see something different, write and article or do a pictorial overview. I myself haven't had the chance to contribute anything major thusfar to the Keystone. Though I do have a few things planned. Essentially the society is indebted to Chuck for his many continuos years of service acting as editor-in-chief for the Ksytone as well as other PRRT&HS publications. I;ve been to Chucks to give some tidbits for the Keystone and i've browsed some of the possible future content. Everytime I arrive at Chuck's he's at his computer doing something for the Keystone. In some aspects I can't imagine how he has time to work on his narrow gauge layout and spend time gardening. Chuck Blardone to the Keystone is what Grif Teller was to PRR calenders. I'd suggest no matter what is published, if you see him somewhere, convention, railfanning, or otherwise, let him know he's doing an outstanding job. The Keystone wouldn't be what it is without Chuck, the BoD, the staff, and its contributers. We are very lucky as a group to recieve one of the finest historical publications in the nation. Good content or bad, its our magazine and 100% PRR. -John "Bill Lane" wrote: Phil and List, I think that the job of Keystone distribution manager is available merely for the asking. It has been announced more help is needed in that area at the Phila. Chapter meets more then once. If this whole thing is a call to arms, then come out shootin! My jury is still out on the other recent issues. I tend to think that if the contributors do so for free knowing that there is no compensation, then TKM too should remain free. That COULD be the hook here. TKM remains free for you if you contribute to it twice a year. I try to give photos to both the Keystone and TKM as much as possible. Chuck Blardone has loudly stated recently that backlog of articles to be published in the Keystone is getting dangerously small. Those in the know that will prepare the number crunching spreadsheet may be able to correlate the non-renews to subscribers of TKM. I will wait until that time comes for the results. I will end this with this thought. Chuck Blardone has been doing us ALL a HUGE service for the past 20 or so years by keeping the quality and time schedule of the Keystone second to none. We all should be prepared, because whenever he decides to return to civilian life, the negative impact on the society will also be huge and unstoppable unless an equally committed, dedicated and qualified successor steps up immediately. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale The REA version has been approved for production http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:09:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Trackside structures From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Monday, March 29, 2004, at 10:58 AM, RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for drawings a/o photos to build track side structures =20= > from.=A0=A0 Is there anything currently available that contains such =20= > information? http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-=20 query-Show***EBF-BEB-189189189198196189-1466***-eProducts***-=20 ***SHOPPING(directory)***.ws4d?SHOPPING/results(S).html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) Renewals Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 16:06:09 -0500 I believe Mark Twain once said "Reports of my death are highly = exagerated." Before we conclude that the society is dead (perish the = thought), let's get after the renewals (direct mailing), determine what = caused the problem so we don't let it happen again (what did we do = different this year compared with the last couple?), and start thinking = about a major marketing effort and membership drive. A lot of superb = ideas have been put forth. The BOD is exceptionally busy - we need to = help them wherever possible. Also, we need to constantly keep in mind that there are a lot of members = (any way of telling how many?) who don't have e-mail so don't get these = messages. We can solve this problem, learn from it, and move forward, but we sure = do need to get busy and act. Bill Bigler - 4915 Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C415A7.BFC07780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
I believe Mark Twain once said "Reports of my = death are=20 highly exagerated."  Before we conclude that the society is dead = (perish=20 the thought), let's get after the renewals (direct mailing), determine = what=20 caused the problem so we don't let it happen again (what did we do = different=20 this year compared with the last couple?), and start thinking about a = major=20 marketing effort and membership drive.  A lot of superb ideas have = been put=20 forth.  The BOD is exceptionally busy - we need to help them = wherever=20 possible.
 
Also, we need to constantly keep in mind that = there are a=20 lot of members (any way of telling how many?) who don't have e-mail so = don't get=20 these messages.
 
We can solve this problem, learn from it, and = move=20 forward, but we sure do need to get busy and act.
 
Bill Bigler - 4915
Big Flats NY
Modeling = PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport = WWII
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C415A7.BFC07780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 07:30:02 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] FREE-MO now STEAMRA -PRO-MO Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 14:22:53 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] membership and the TKM Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:49:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New P&LE book From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 10:36 AM, b.hom@att.net wrote: > The P&LERRHS will soon release "P&LE's Gondola Cars." For N scalers, Micro-Trains released two P&LE gons last month... http://www.micro-trains.com/nr_105580.htm Can't comment on the prototypical accuracy though. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!