Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 10:23:54 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AC freight symbols From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] AC freight symbols Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:43:26 -0500 Aaahhhhh, those mystery AC trains!! Fred and the List: "AC" trains were on the Ft. Wayne line in 1965 as well. There were 2; = AC-1 and AC-2. They appear to run almost daily. AC-1 would go past = Warsaw in the evening after 10pm. AC-2 typically arrived in Warsaw in = the mid-afternoon. It is interesting to not that both of these trains = did not appear in the ETT of 1965 while they ran almost every day. The = typical motive power on these trains were 2nd generation diesels like = GP-30's GP-35's and U-25-B's. The Pennsy had a fragmented and inconsistent system of naming freights. = This is one area where the Standard Railroad of the World, wasn't. From = what I can tell, the Pennsy had 4 basic categories where freight symbols = could fall under: The first train symbols are Commodity-based. Trains like "TT-1" (an = intermodal Truc-Train), "LCL-1" (Less than CarLoad), "FW-8" (Feed Water = livestock), "NF-6" (Non - Feed water livestock) were all named based on = the commodites that they hauled. However, one cannot tell what the = origin and destination of these trains are just by looking at the = symbols The second train symbols were Origin-Destination based. Trains like CB-1 = / CB-2 were Chicago to Boston and CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville. Note = with these train symbols, one can determine the origin and destination = but cannot determine what the train is hauling. Would "AC" trains fall = in this category? If the "C" stood for Chicago, what did the "A" stand = for? Another train that may fall in this category is CS-8. The third category are "semi-destination" train symbols. Westbound = trains like WC-5 stood for "West Coast" trains. Likewise "SWC-1" trains = on the Panhandle were heading for the "South West Coast". These trains = did not go all of the way to the coast but rather interchanged with = railroads in Chicago and St. Louis that did. Also, one cannot tell from = the symbol on the EXACT origin and destination of the train. The last category were "divisional" trains. These were typically locals = however, the names were not consistent with other divisions. The Ft. = Wayne Division locals were named FW-13, FW 24, etc. Please note that = this is in conflict with the FW-8 live stock train mentioned above. In a = neighboring division, the Logansport Division trains were named with a = "LD-" prefix; I read somewhere that LD stood for "Logansport Dispatch." And were are talking only about the mid-1960's!!! Pick up a number of = ETT's a few years apart and you will see an alphabet soup of train = symbols that come and go as quickly as the sun sets. So, what does AC mean? How about CS-8? or GRE-2? If any of you out there = have information on these trains, please reply back to Fred and me. I = am giving a presentation on Warsaw at this years convention and will be = discussing train symbols briefly. Any information will be greatly = appreciated. Ted Andrews ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Frederick Ripley=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: [PRR] AC freight symbols Hi All, I am hoping someone can supply some information about several freight symbols. In the Western Region ETT of 10/30/66, 2 new freight schedules are = AC-2 and AC-4. Both originate in Chicago, and travel the Ft. Wayne main to the = east end of the Region (Lucas, OH). However, the Central Region ETT of the same date shows neither train! Conversely, this timetable shows a westbound on the Ft. Wayne line, = AC-1, that leaves the Central Region at Lucas, but is not listed on the = Western Region schedules. Does anyone know anything about these trains? Thanks, Fred R. = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40463.505A8700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Aaahhhhh, those mystery AC trains!!
 
Fred and the List:
 
"AC" trains were on the Ft. Wayne line in 1965 as well. There were = 2; AC-1=20 and AC-2. They appear to run almost daily. AC-1 would go past Warsaw in = the=20 evening after 10pm. AC-2 typically arrived in Warsaw in the = mid-afternoon. It is=20 interesting to not that both of these trains did not appear in the ETT = of 1965=20 while they ran almost every day. The typical motive power on these = trains were=20 2nd generation diesels like GP-30's GP-35's and U-25-B's.
 
The Pennsy had a fragmented and inconsistent system of naming = freights.=20 This is one area where the Standard Railroad of the World, wasn't. From = what I=20 can tell, the Pennsy had 4 basic categories where freight symbols could = fall=20 under:
 
The first train symbols are Commodity-based. Trains like "TT-1" (an = intermodal Truc-Train), "LCL-1" (Less than CarLoad), "FW-8" (Feed Water=20 livestock), "NF-6" (Non - Feed water livestock) were all named based on = the=20 commodites that they hauled. However, one cannot tell what the origin = and=20 destination of these trains are just by looking at the symbols
 
The second train symbols were Origin-Destination based. Trains like = CB-1 /=20 CB-2 were Chicago to Boston and CG-2 was Chicago to Greenville. Note = with these=20 train symbols, one can determine the origin and destination but cannot = determine=20 what the train is hauling. Would "AC" trains fall in this category? If = the "C"=20 stood for Chicago, what did the "A" stand for? Another train that may = fall in=20 this category is CS-8.
 
The third category are "semi-destination" train symbols. Westbound = trains=20 like WC-5 stood for "West Coast" trains. Likewise "SWC-1" = trains on=20 the Panhandle were heading for the "South West Coast". These trains = did not=20 go all of the way to the coast but rather interchanged with railroads=20 in Chicago and St. Louis that did. Also, one cannot tell from = the=20 symbol on the EXACT origin and destination of the train.
 
The last category were "divisional" trains. These were = typically=20 locals however, the names were not consistent with other=20 divisions. The Ft. Wayne Division locals were named = FW-13, FW 24,=20 etc. Please note that this is in conflict with the FW-8 live stock = train=20 mentioned above. In a neighboring division, the Logansport Division = trains were=20 named with a "LD-" prefix; I read somewhere that LD stood for=20 "Logansport Dispatch."
 
And were are talking only about the mid-1960's!!! Pick up a number = of=20 ETT's a few years apart and you will see an alphabet soup of train = symbols=20 that come and go as quickly as the sun sets.
 
So, what does AC mean? How about CS-8? or GRE-2? If = any of=20 you out there have information on these trains, please reply = back to=20 Fred and me.  I am giving a presentation on Warsaw at=20 this years convention and will be discussing train = symbols=20 briefly. Any information will be greatly appreciated.
 
 
Ted Andrews
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Ripley
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com=
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 = 11:23=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] AC freight = symbols

Hi All,

I am hoping someone can supply some = information=20 about several freight
symbols.

In the Western Region ETT of=20 10/30/66, 2 new freight schedules are AC-2 and
AC-4.  Both = originate=20 in Chicago, and travel the Ft. Wayne main to the east
end of the = Region=20 (Lucas, OH).

However, the Central Region ETT of the same date = shows=20 neither train!
Conversely, this timetable shows a westbound on the = Ft.=20 Wayne line, AC-1,
that leaves the Central Region at Lucas, but is = not=20 listed on the Western
Region schedules.

Does anyone know = anything=20 about these trains?

Thanks, Fred=20 = R.



-------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C40463.505A8700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:36:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] AC freight symbols X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another train symbol which did appear in the ETT is train PY which originally ran from Pitcairn to Youngstown but really ran to Niles, OH. Later it ran from Conway to Niles. The Niles PY crews were regularly on overtime and often "outlawing" on the 16 hour day. The Ashtabula crews which only had seasonal ore and coal work,were hungry for year round work and convinced the Supt. that they could get the train over the road on schedule - which they did. The train then ran from Conway to Ashtabula and was still called PY - It was crewed from the "pool" crew list Dick Wilkison ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] AC freight symbols Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:40:11 -0500 Ted, et al., GRE-2 = Chicago (55th St.) - Enola. Daily, the"Midwest Merchant," from 1954 Brief book It's quite possible that the "GR" originally stood for Gary (Indiana), and the service was later moved west to 55th St. On the E&P in the early days Sharon was an origin and destination point, and the letter "S" was used to designate it in some symbol freights. When Wheatland yard was built most of the trains originated and terminated there yet many still carried the "S" symbol rather than "W", which was used also. I did see a local symbol freight in one of my several brief books that used "GR" to mean Gary. But this is just speculation on my part. CS-8 = Chicago (55th St) - Enola. Daily, from 1936, 1954 Brief books. In PC daze it had been extended to Greenville, NJ AC-1 = Akron-Columbus in 1972 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw. AC-2 = Columbus-Akron in 1972 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw either. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40473.9FE56E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message
Ted, et=20 al.,
 
GRE-2 =3D Chicago = (55th St.) -=20 Enola.  Daily, the"Midwest Merchant," from 1954 Brief book  = It's quite=20 possible that the "GR" originally stood for Gary (Indiana), and the = service was=20 later moved west to 55th St. On the E&P in the early days Sharon was = an=20 origin and destination point, and the letter "S" was used to designate = it in=20 some symbol freights. When Wheatland yard was built most of the trains=20 originated and terminated there yet many still carried the "S" symbol = rather=20 than "W", which was used also. I did see a local symbol freight = in one of=20 my several brief books that used "GR" to mean Gary. But this is just = speculation=20 on my part.
 
CS-8 =3D Chicago = (55th St) -=20 Enola.  Daily, from 1936, 1954 Brief books. In PC daze it had been = extended=20 to Greenville, NJ
 
AC-1 =3D = Akron-Columbus in 1972=20 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by=20 Warsaw.
 
AC-2 =3D = Columbus-Akron in 1972=20 PC daze, but of course that doesn't make any sense going by Warsaw=20 either.
 
Al
 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C40473.9FE56E60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 17:56:31 -0600 From: Randy Subject: RE: [PRR] AC freight symbols From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:05:53 -0500 After a brief hiatus, I will resume giving you tidbits of actual train = operations at KS tower, on the Fort Wayne Line in Warsaw, Indiana. A Mystery Engine....... ......On May 22 1965, TT-2 went through Warsaw at 3:08 am headed by = engine number 3668. Average speed between Plymouth and Warsaw was just = over 53 miles per hour. What was 3668? No other reporting marks were = given. Still, it was on one of the Pennsy's top trains. That is it for now. Stay tuned for more rail drama from Warsaw on this = list! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C404A1.2C7C35C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
After a brief hiatus, I will resume giving you tidbits of actual = train=20 operations at KS tower, on the Fort Wayne Line in Warsaw, Indiana.
 
A Mystery Engine.......
 
.......On May 22 1965, TT-2 went through=20 Warsaw at 3:08 am headed by engine number 3668. Average = speed between=20 Plymouth and=20 Warsaw was just over 53 = miles per=20 hour. What was 3668? No other reporting marks were given. Still, it was = on one=20 of the Pennsy's top trains.
 
 
That is it for now. Stay tuned for more rail drama = from Warsaw=20 on this list!
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C404A1.2C7C35C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:55:14 -0600 Subject: [PRR] AC and other Ft. Wayne schedules From: Frederick Ripley From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:28:01 +0000 >From: ELDEN GATWOOD >Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 07:23:28 -0800 >From: Ted Andrews [mailto:Ted_Andrews@msn.com] >Subject: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 10:24:52 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... From: Frederick Ripley Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:39:14 -0500 Subject: Reminder Re: [PRR] Harrisburg, Pa., Train Show on March 13th From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reminder for this Saturday -- and here's a MapQuest link: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/ map.adp?country=US&countryid=250&addtohistory=&address=200+Gibson+Street &city=Steelton&state=PA&zipcode=&submit=Get+Map On Tuesday, March 2, 2004, at 02:16 PM, Jerry Britton wrote: > I'd like to invite anyone who is in the area to visit the 18th Annual > Harrisburg Railroad Show and Collector's Market, to be held at the I. > W. Abel Union Hall (Steelworkers Union), 200 Gibson St., Steelton, PA > 17113 on Saturday, March 13th. Doors open 9 a.m. - 3 p.m. Sponsored by > the Harrisburg Chapter of the National Railroad Historical Society. > > This show is not large, by any means. I think there are usually about > 80 tables or so. I'll be there (Merchandise Service) with several BLI > locomotives hooked up to a DCC system for your listening pleasure! > > The NRHS Harrisburg Chapter will be running their HO modular layout > and I know my personal friend Bill Lewis will have a decent sized N > scale layout running. > > So if you know not what to do on this day, and you are within a > reasonable driving distance, please stop by! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: amato@mchsi.com Subject: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:14:01 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:00:56 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 15:33:00 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:42:20 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:46:47 -0800 Subject: [PRR] MP-54 From: Greg Ritacco Message-Id: <19A81EBF-714A-11D8-A183-000A959FDA52@surewest.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK2 0.31-18 ip=216.93.194.144 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > This has probably been asked but I don't remember it within the last > two years. Since the MP-54 coach and motors had no diaphragms, could a > passenger travel between cars? If so, wasn't it really loud, hot, cold, > wet, annoying? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:05:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: aurora7@juno.com Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: LIRR MP54's, the answer was yes. THey had chains between cars, rather than diaphragms. Is the PRR MP%$ at RRMPa gonna be repaired or replaced? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "There are no stupid questions, but there are many inquisitive idiots." ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Phila chapter High Line mag... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:10:22 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi all, Does anyone have a list of the issues of the High Line that were published? I was trying to figure out which issues I'm missing but since it wasn't published very regularly I can't really tell... Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:33:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ted, UP and CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East Conway from time to time from the mid 1960s to the merger. A very good friend of mine was an engineer on the FT. Wayne and also operated trains over to Altoona and told me that many times he would wait for eastbound TT2 at East Conway with one PRR locomotive because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At that time, the Ft. Wayne didn't have cab signals. I think there are some published photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains on the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units leading PRR trains on the Ft. Wayne. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:38:31 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Aha! The 1949 chart clearly shows the "lap" configuration. And now that I look more closely at my Interlocking diagram, they do indeed match. I missed the fact that the main ran through the crossover. Alas, I will not have room to model the entire "West" siding -- it will be a dummy track ending behind my backdrop. The "East" siding will be fully operational, however. Thanks, Dennis and Derrick! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "Dennis Rockwell" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > On 8 Mar, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Dennis Rockwell wrote: > > > > > > > Interesting! A December 1965 track chart I downloaded from > > > > Derrick Brashear [ ... ] > > > > > > isn't there a 1940s chart covering that territory on my site now? or do i > > > misremember what day grimes' chart covered? > > > > Umm, not that I can find, but I can't find *any* charts on > > your site. The chart I have doesn't have any name on it > > that I can see. > > http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html > > scroll down. > > > If you have an earlier chart online, I'm *very* interested! > > Eastern Region Wilkes-Barre Division 1949. > > I see South Danville on page 4 of the PDF. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:08:11 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:44:38 -0600 From: Randy Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:35:59 -0500 Randy: Thanks for the info. I had a sneaking suspicion that CB&Q power in the = mid-60's was 3-digit numbered. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randy=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; Ted Andrews=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... You can rule out CB&Q power. According to their diesel roster from = 1968, they have no locomotive with a 4 digit number. Randy For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40566.1C574160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Randy:
 
Thanks for the info. I had a sneaking suspicion that CB&Q power = in the=20 mid-60's was 3-digit numbered.
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; Ted Andrews
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 10:44=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery = engine at=20 Warsaw Tower.......

You can rule out CB&Q power.  According to = their=20 diesel roster from 1968, they have no locomotive with a 4 digit=20 number.

Randy

For = assistance with=20 this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C40566.1C574160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: [PRR] Lines West Tower Standards Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Gents, I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design for a brick interlocking tower? TAOT Best Regards, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:45:20 -0500 Dave: Thanks for the info. and sources. VERY interesting. In fact, one source = is Pennsy Power II where Al Stauffer rides from Crestline to Conway with = one PRR GP-30 leading 3 CB&Q and 1 UP GP-30's. Really neat!!=20 It sounds like foreign power was able to lead PRR trains west of = Pittsburgh. Engine No. 3668 could then be something from another = railroad......but which one?? At any rate, I will need to get a few P2K CB&Q, UP and CRI&P engines for = my layout now. I wonder if I can sneak a C&NW, Milw, or Santa Fe unit in = as well...... Thanks again! Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 To: Ted Andrews=20 Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery engine at Warsaw Tower....... Ted, UP and CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East = Conway from time to time from the mid 1960s to the merger.=20 A very good friend of mine was an engineer on the FT. Wayne = and also operated trains over to Altoona and told me that many times he would wait for eastbound TT2 at East Conway with one PRR locomotive because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At that time, the Ft. Wayne didn't have cab signals.=20 I think there are some published photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains = on the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units = leading PRR trains on the Ft. Wayne.=20 Hope this helps. Dave Hopson =20 = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C40567.6AFDBA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dave:
 
Thanks for the info. and sources. VERY interesting. In fact, one = source is=20 Pennsy Power II where Al Stauffer rides from Crestline to Conway with = one PRR=20 GP-30 leading 3 CB&Q and 1 UP GP-30's. Really neat!!
 
It sounds like foreign power was able to lead PRR trains west of=20 Pittsburgh. Engine No. 3668 could then be something from another=20 railroad......but which one??
 
At any rate, I will need to get a few P2K CB&Q, UP=20 and CRI&P engines for my layout now. I wonder if I can = sneak a=20 C&NW, Milw, or Santa Fe unit in as well......
 
Thanks again!
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From: zootowerprr@webtv.net
To: Ted Andrews
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 7:33=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mystery = engine at=20 Warsaw Tower.......

Ted,

       UP and = CB&Q units did lead PRR trains from Chicago to East Conway
from = time to=20 time from the mid 1960s to the merger.=20
        A very good friend of = mine was=20 an engineer on the FT. Wayne and
also operated trains over to = Altoona and=20 told me that many times he
would wait for eastbound TT2 at East = Conway with=20 one PRR locomotive
because the consist was CB&Q-UP power. At = that time,=20 the Ft. Wayne
didn't have cab signals.=20
       I think there are some = published=20 photos of UP-CB&Q lead trains on
the Ft. Wayne. Also there is a = tape/DVD that shows CB&Q-UP units leading
PRR trains on the Ft. = Wayne.=20
Hope this helps.

 Dave=20 = Hopson
 


---------------------------------------------= --------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C40567.6AFDBA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Decal HELP!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Decal HELP!! Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:13:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Decal HELP!! Hi All, I was done decaling an HO Jones and Laughlin car. I wipe the decals down to clean off the glue residue around the edges when I had a problem. A section of the decal was removed and is unusable. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/HO_JL.jpg I only had 1 set to do this car. I need the JONE only as in the photo. Please reply even if you have a partial set of Champ HO J&L set HT-185. I have already tried Champ to no avail. This must be an extremely rare decal set to find, as a friend who has been painting HO full time for years does not even have a set. I may have to use a Microscale gothic lettering set, but the selection of sizes is just under or just over the perfect height if the real decal set. My customer went to great lengths to detail this car out. I want to make the car as perfect as possible. Thank You, Bill Lane Custom Brass Painting http://www.lanestrains.com Importing a Brass X29 in S Scale http://www.pennsysmodels.com Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:52:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:52:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Trucks From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Reviewing passenger car trucks last night, specifically, for post-war lightweights. One source, penned by Chuck Blardone, indicates most (if not all) of these cars had "PRR 2E-P5" trucks. The Pullman Library, Volume 4, makes some mention in the back about Commonwealth truck "knock offs". I tried comparing photos. I need an informed opinion... Are Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks and PRR 2E-P5 trucks the same, or nearly the same? The application is N scale, so rivet counting is not essential. I am trying to compare the PRR 2E-P5 trucks to the Micro-Trains 4-wheel Commonwealth truck, which can be viewed at http://www.micro-trains.com/Cuts/1017x.jpg Please refrain from jokes about the HUGE coupler! I would not be using these. I would body mount. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:54:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:47:27 +0000 From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:20:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: ndbprr@att.net asked: Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture a guess as to why? The short answer is that from a car maintenance and utilization standpoint, it was much easier for railroads to band together and form consortiums to manage refrigerator car fleets [Ex: Pacific Fruit Express (UP/SP)]. The Pennsy was a major player in Fruit Growers Express; there were reefers with PRR reporting marks early in the 20th Century, but almost all cars were transferred to FGEX upon its start-up in 1922. A few Class RF reefers in express service stayed in PRR reporting marks until 1928. A few railroad did manage their own fleets of freight reefers (ATSF [SFRD], CN, and CP are the most prominent examples), but the majority of roads followed this business model. For a quick overview, check out this page at Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillyDee53@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:25:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars I'm not an expert, but Westerfield lists models for PRR class RF reefers, circa 1900. I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. In later years, Penn was a member of Fruit Growers Express. Most railroads did not own reefers as they were expensive, limited use cars. Railroads have always tried to limit their car fleets to boxcars, flats, gons and hoppers, and let the private owners supply the more expensive cars. Bill --part1_1c9.16412ab3.2d7fac82_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" I'm not an expert, but Westerfield=20= lists models for PRR class RF reefers, circa 1900.  I believe the Penn=20= also used an outside-braced design.  In later years, Penn was a member=20= of Fruit Growers Express.  Most railroads did not own reefers as they w= ere expensive, limited use cars.  Railroads have always tried to limit=20= their car fleets to boxcars, flats, gons and hoppers, and let the private ow= ners supply the more expensive cars.  Bill --part1_1c9.16412ab3.2d7fac82_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <030920042247.14758.52f4@att.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:05:55 -0600 Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote: I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 boxcar = with ice bunkers and reefer doors: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_3= 4view.jpg&fr=3DclR7 All cars went to FGEX. Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors and ran = into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX). BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which = simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an = "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually = serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The = proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that = the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and = the car lining. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_016C_01C40611.EE556100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote:
I believe the = Penn also used an=20 outside-braced design.
 
That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 = boxcar with=20 ice bunkers and reefer doors:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightph= otos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_34view.jpg&fr=3DclR7
 
All cars went to FGEX.  Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors = and ran=20 into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX).
 
BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms=20 which simply wasn't used in industry publications.  = The "bracing"=20 of an "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides.  = They=20 actually serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its=20 load.  The proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers = to the=20 fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior = sheathing and=20 the car lining.
 
 
Ben Hom  
------=_NextPart_000_016C_01C40611.EE556100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:23:36 -0500 From: Bill Subject: [PRR] Inquirer article on the P&C Railroad Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In today's Inquirer's Local News (Philadelphia & its Suburbs) section on page 12, there's an article concerning the research being done by William Watson and John Ahtes, professors at Immaculata College, about the mass grave of 57 P&C workers at Duffy's Cut in Malvern, PA. The remains were placed in Malvern after the workers fatally contracted black diphtheria and is marked by a stone memorial. The professors are investigating if the location of the gravesite is correct based on papers inherited by Watson and his twin brother Frank. Their grandfather, Joseph Tripician, was the personal secretary to Martin Clement, President of the PRR. Mr. Tripician removed the papers from Penn Central's vault in 1970. Sounds like a good idea for an "Observation Car" tour. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:28:39 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Dennis, Derrick, and list, I took a few minutes to post the Kips Interlocking diagram from my 1965 book: http://home.mchsi.com/~amato/graphics/1965-susq-dist-kips.gif Note that your browser may shrink it to fit on your screen. If you open it with a graphics program, you should be able to see all the detail. BTW, what are the "identifiers" (for lack of better term) along each track. For example "F2", "E2", and "DD2"? Are these block numbers? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Rockwell" To: "Derrick J Brashear" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kips Interlocking circa 1960 > On 8 Mar, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html > > > > Eastern Region Wilkes-Barre Division 1949. > > > > I see South Danville on page 4 of the PDF. > > Yep! Excellent! > > Frank, this shows (I think) that we're both right. It's > shown here as a long (2.5mi) siding with a crossover in the > middle. However, the main line (the darker line) takes the > crossover, which would imply to me that it is in fact > arranged as a lap siding, since I wouldn't expect the > mainline to take a crossover. > > Whether those turnouts are a pair of lefts or rights > wouldn't change how the signalling was designed, would it? > > There is another lap siding at Mifflin/Creasy which the > chart shows as I could expect to lay it out, and a > three-track water stop between Nescopeck and Wapwallopen > which explains the oddball divergence in later charts. > > Very very good info here. Thanks, Derrick! > > Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:34:03 -0500 Ben, In the case of a refrigerator car, the sheathing could not be both = exterior surface and interior lining, as there was some insulation = involved between the sheathing and the lining. So the R7 could not = really be considered "single sheathed". The X23, yes, the R7, no. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Benjamin Frank Hom=20 To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) wrote: I believe the Penn also used an outside-braced design. That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 boxcar = with ice bunkers and reefer doors: = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_3= 4view.jpg&fr=3DclR7 All cars went to FGEX. Some cars were rebuilt with plug doors and ran = into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of FGEX). BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms which = simply wasn't used in industry publications. The "bracing" of an = "outside braced" car do not structurally brace the sides. They actually = serve as a truss which carries the weight of the car and its load. The = proper industry term is "single sheathed," which refers to the fact that = the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both exterior sheathing and = the car lining. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01C4061E.3E64DE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Ben,
 
In the case of a refrigerator car, the sheathing = could not be=20 both exterior surface and interior lining, as there was some insulation = involved=20 between the sheathing and the lining. So the R7 could not really be = considered=20 "single sheathed". The X23, yes, the R7, no.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Benjamin=20 Frank Hom
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 = 9:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator = cars

Bill (BillyDee53@aol.com) = wrote:
I believe the = Penn also used=20 an outside-braced design.
 
That design is PRR Class R7, which is essentially the Class X23 = boxcar=20 with ice bunkers and reefer doors:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightph= otos.html?photo=3DPRR_104429_R7_34view.jpg&fr=3DclR7
 
All cars went to FGEX.  Some cars were rebuilt with plug = doors and=20 ran into the 1960s under NX reporting marks (subsidiary of = FGEX).
 
BTW, "outside braced" is another one of those modeler's terms=20 which simply wasn't used in industry publications. =20 The "bracing" of an "outside braced" car do not structurally = brace the=20 sides.  They actually serve as a truss which carries the weight = of the=20 car and its load.  The proper industry term is "single sheathed," = which=20 refers to the fact that the wooden sheathing of the car serves as both = exterior sheathing and the car lining.
 
 
Ben Hom  
------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01C4061E.3E64DE80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] Request for Comments: S Scale PRR Covered Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 21:43:49 -0600 Paul S. asked: Attached is a link to an American Models S scale PRR covered hopper=20 (http://www.americanmodels.com/_photos/3308.jpg).=20 Would be interested in the group's thoughts as to how prototypical it=20 is. First, it's off-topic for this list as it's a post-1960 car. PRR did buy 185 Class H46 PS-2 CD covered hoppers from Pullman-Standard = in 1965; however, the paint and lettering on this model is executed = poorly. The car number is bogus (PRR 260084 is a Class H42 cylindrical = covered hopper), and the paint and lettering are a crappy rendition of a = PRR covered hopper paint scheme. The car should be in the final Plain = Keystone scheme with large gothic reporting marks and numerals. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4061F.9BAD5F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Paul S. asked:
Attached is a link to an American Models S scale PRR covered = hopper=20
(http://www.amer= icanmodels.com/_photos/3308.jpg).=20
Would be interested in the group's thoughts as to how prototypical = it=20
is.
First, it's off-topic for this list as it's a post-1960 = car.
 
PRR did buy 185 Class H46 PS-2 CD covered hoppers = from=20 Pullman-Standard in 1965; however, the paint and lettering on this model = is=20 executed poorly.  The car number is bogus (PRR 260084 is a Class = H42=20 cylindrical covered hopper), and the paint and lettering = are a crappy=20 rendition of a PRR covered hopper paint scheme.  The car = should be in=20 the final Plain Keystone scheme with large gothic reporting marks and=20 numerals.
 
 
Ben = Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C4061F.9BAD5F80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:46:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars From: smithbf@vetmed.auburn.edu X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of > cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture > a guess as to why? In addition to the responses already given, I will note that the PRR did maintain a fleet of express refrigerators in the form of the R50B and much more rare R60. These were technically considered as part of the passenger car fleet, but at many times the R50Bs operated as freight equipment. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn AL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:25:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Revisited: Federal Glass Company in Columbus, OH on T&OC In a message dated 3/8/04 11:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes: > Gents: > > Actually Mark, after sending the "send me her adress e-mail" I am surprised > you are asking this..... > > The N&W (heading N-S)was a few blocks east, not near the plant. The T&OC > came into > Cow-lumbus along Marion Road (E-W), turned north and served a few > industries. > Then the whole line swings north, heading along the river. There are a > ton of industries along this road...or there were 10 years ago. > Garrett Rea > Nashville, TN > Garrett and Mark, Looking at my trusty SPV map of Columbus, I assume the locale is not only on the T&OC Western Branch west of Truro, but a bit west of Bannon where the N&W crossing/interchange is. I don't remember them, but the map shows three lengthy spurs off the north side of the T&OC (the middle one is the longest and is shown as going to Techneglas). Now further questions: along the Scioto the T&OC and C&O are shown swapping sides as they head north to their crossing of the Little Miami at Scioto Tower (required PRR content): 1. where did they cross, South Columbus or Frankfort St.? 2. didn't the T&OC have a yard called Frankfort Street? I assume it lay on the river side of the main. What facilities were there and when did it disappear? (It was still there quite while after Buckeye opened, and visible as you entered Columbus on I-71 from the south). 3. the T&OC had their own station just south of Scioto Tower (and between two crossings of the Scioto River). Was it always called Columbus, or previously West Columbus or Franklintown? 4. even back in Hocking Valley days (pre-C&O), did the passenger trains from the coal fields back up a Pennsy line to reach Columbus Union Depot? BTW, Mike Walker's SPV atlases are usually very good at showing yards and former yards, but the Great Lakes East volume falls apart on the Columbus area map, showing no: T&OC Frankfort St. PRR (Little Miami) Water Street PRR Yard A PRR Yard B PRR Grogan Yard PRR Pennor Yard PRR Spruce St (coachyards west of CUDepot) PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops CCC&StL yard east of Miami Crossing (I don't even remember the name -- this was the first thing to be wiped out by freeway construction I imagine). All these yards are now abandoned, and most sites long since cleared for other purposes. Of course, if all the above were to be shown, it might require a "downtown Columbus" inset map to handle the detail usefully. "America has rolled by like an army of steam rollers. It's been built, destroyed, and then built again" -- James Earl Jones monolog in Field of Dreams Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_24.50d4b154.2d7fe49e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/8/04 11:48:22=20= PM Eastern Standard Time, Garrett.Rea@worldnet.att.net writes:

Gents:

Actually Mark, after sending the "send me her adress e-mail"  I am surp= rised
you are asking this.....

The N&W (heading N-S)was a few blocks east, not near the plant.  Th= e T&OC came into
Cow-lumbus along Marion Road (E-W), turned north and served a few industries= .
Then the whole line swings north, heading along the river.   = There are a
ton of industries along this road...or there were 10 years ago.
=


<snip>

Garrett Rea
Nashville, TN


Garrett and Mark,

Looking at my trusty SPV map of Columbus, I assume the locale is not only on= the T&OC Western Branch west of Truro, but a bit west of Bannon where t= he N&W crossing/interchange is.  I don't remember them, but the map= shows three lengthy spurs off the north side of the T&OC (the middle on= e is the longest and is shown as going to Techneglas).

Now further questions: along the Scioto the T&OC and C&O are shown s= wapping sides as they head north to their crossing of the Little Miami at Sc= ioto Tower (required PRR content):
1. where did they cross, South Columbus or Frankfort St.?
2. didn't the T&OC have a yard called Frankfort Street?  I assume i= t lay on the river side of the main.  What facilities were there and wh= en did it disappear?  (It was still there quite while after Buckeye ope= ned, and visible as you entered Columbus on I-71 from the south).
3. the T&OC had their own station just south of Scioto Tower (and betwee= n two crossings of the Scioto River).  Was it always called Columbus, o= r previously West Columbus or Franklintown?
4. even back in Hocking Valley days (pre-C&O), did the passenger trains=20= from the coal fields back up a Pennsy line to reach Columbus Union Depot?
BTW, Mike Walker's SPV atlases are usually very good at showing yards and fo= rmer yards, but the Great Lakes East volume falls apart on the Columbus area= map, showing no:
T&OC Frankfort St.
PRR (Little Miami) Water Street
PRR Yard A
PRR Yard B
PRR Grogan Yard
PRR Pennor Yard
PRR Spruce St (coachyards west of CUDepot)
PRR St. Clair Avenue Shops
CCC&StL yard east of Miami Crossing (I don't even remember the name -- t= his was the first thing to be wiped out by freeway construction I imagine).<= BR>
All these yards are now abandoned, and most sites long since cleared for oth= er purposes.  Of course, if all the above were to be shown, it might re= quire a "downtown Columbus" inset map to handle the detail usefully.

"America has rolled by like an army of steam rollers. It's been built, destr= oyed, and then built again" -- James Earl Jones monolog in Field of Dream= s

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_24.50d4b154.2d7fe49e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:25:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West towers In a message dated 3/9/04 1:14:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Lines West Tower Standards > From: "John Frantz" > Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500 > > Gents, > > I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that > model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design > for a brick interlocking tower? > > TAOT > > Best Regards, > John The 1898 Lines West signaling standards shows only a frame tower design which steps up for larger and larger interlocking machines. This frame tower is NOT similar to Lines East designs of the period; instead, it is more like generic interlockings all over Chicago. I'd like correlate this wood-sheathed design to actual LW locations. I suspect, for example, that Mansfield (OH) was one of them before it acquired red insulbrick siding. But this design may also cover Scioto, Custer, Hanna, South Charleston, Greene (Xenia) and a number of others. This of course does nothing to document the 70 years of brick towers on Lines West. The one recognizable grouping, relatively late, was the "brick castle" group with flat roofs, including Alum Creek (Columbus), Piqua, RACE (Logansport), and Smithboro? IL. An earlier brick design (with 4-slope roof) is represented by CLARE in Cincinnati; according to resources uncovered while researching The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, CLARE replaced a wood tower wiped out in a 1921 derailment. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_154.2faa642d.2d7fe493_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 3/9/04 1:14:43 A= M Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Lines West Tower Stand= ards
From: "John Frantz" <johnf2384@suscom.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:12 -0500

Gents,

I've been on a tower kick lately. For the gentelmen that
model Pennsy Lines West. Was there a rough standard design
for a brick interlocking tower?

TAOT

Best Regards,
John


The 1898 Lines West signaling standards shows only a frame tower design whic= h steps up for larger and larger interlocking machines.  This frame tow= er is NOT similar to Lines East designs of the period; instead, it is more l= ike generic interlockings all over Chicago.

I'd like correlate this wood-sheathed design to actual LW locations.  I= suspect, for example, that Mansfield (OH) was one of them before it acquire= d red insulbrick siding.  But this design may also cover Scioto, Custer= , Hanna, South Charleston, Greene (Xenia) and a number of others.

This of course does nothing to document the 70 years of brick towers on Line= s West.  The one recognizable grouping, relatively late, was the "brick= castle" group with flat roofs, including Alum Creek (Columbus), Piqua, RACE= (Logansport), and Smithboro? IL.  An earlier brick design (with 4-slop= e roof) is represented by CLARE in Cincinnati; according to resources uncove= red while researching The Pennsylvania Railroad in Cincinnati, CLARE=20= replaced a wood tower wiped out in a 1921 derailment.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_154.2faa642d.2d7fe493_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:43:39 -0500 Does anyone know of an accurate/up to date mailing address for Funero & = Camerlengo? I sent them a letter at their Honesdale, Pa address and the = letter was returned as no one resided at that address. =20 I looked at several web sites but all listed the address that I used = that resulted in the returned letter. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know of an accurate/up to = date mailing=20 address for Funero & Camerlengo?  I sent them a letter at their = Honesdale, Pa address and the letter was returned as no one resided at = that=20 address. 
 
I looked at several web sites but all = listed the=20 address that I used that resulted in the = returned letter.
 
Any help would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] F & C address Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:43:39 -0500 Does anyone know of an accurate/up to date mailing address for Funero & = Camerlengo? I sent them a letter at their Honesdale, Pa address and the = letter was returned as no one resided at that address. =20 I looked at several web sites but all listed the address that I used = that resulted in the returned letter. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does anyone know of an accurate/up to = date mailing=20 address for Funero & Camerlengo?  I sent them a letter at their = Honesdale, Pa address and the letter was returned as no one resided at = that=20 address. 
 
I looked at several web sites but all = listed the=20 address that I used that resulted in the = returned letter.
 
Any help would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
 
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C40638.BACABAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:31:13 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Or are RBL's boxcars? In a message dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 > > Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? > > The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later > years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR > Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars > that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 > PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as > Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were > in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. > > Al > Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and seemingly most other FGE owners). There were both 40 and 50 foot insulated boxcars of FGE design. The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and similar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled. If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A. Of course, all of these are built circa 1960 or later. Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these cars are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built date. They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repainted in SK2b or PK. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:31:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Or are RBL's boxcars? In a message dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500 > > Re: Did any ever have PRR markings? > > The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later > years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR > Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars > that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95 > PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as > Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were > in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880. > > Al > Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and seemingly most other FGE owners). There were both 40 and 50 foot insulated boxcars of FGE design. The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and similar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled. If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A. Of course, all of these are built circa 1960 or later. Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these cars are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built date. They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repainted in SK2b or PK. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_da.551cf7e.2d806491_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" In a messa= ge dated 3/9/04 10:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=

Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator= cars
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:41:37 -0500

Re: Did any ever have PRR markings?

The answers for the earlier periods have been covered. In the later
years there were cars that were technically reefers, carrying the AAR
Mechanical Designation of RBL. They were bunkerless refrigerator cars
that I always referred to as insulated boxcars. For example see pg 95
PRR CG1. The cars were listed under the PRR in the ORER, as
Refrigerator, All Steel AAR RBL but w/o and PRR class numbers and were
in number series 91887-91911 and 92861-92880.

Al


Unsurprisingly, those RBL's were built by Fruit Growers Express for PRR (and= seemingly most other FGE owners).  There were both 40 and 50 foot insu= lated boxcars of FGE design.

The AAR Mech Code may be "RBL", but I've always considered the RBL (and simi= lar XLI) cars to be "insulated boxcars" since they are only passively cooled= .  If RBL's are included as reefers, then we would have to include PRR=20= classes X53, X53A, X54, and X54A.  Of course, all of these are built ci= rca 1960 or later.  Challenge: I believe virtually all pix of these car= s are in PRR's eighth standard paint scheme (SK2a) because of their built da= te.  They must have lived a protected life, as I've never seen one repa= inted in SK2b or PK.

Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
Member, Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West <= /HTML> --part1_da.551cf7e.2d806491_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: RE: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:59:24 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <012001c40635$79bd50e0$06f70041@dial.home.com> Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: I had always heard that one of the main reasons RRs preferred to operate their reefers through private owner subsidiaries had to do with the interchange rules. There were ICC or AAR regulations mandating the = return of empties. These rules did not work well for expensive equipment for narrowly defined cargo, such as reefers. If the cars were private = owner, then the interchange rules were different (or nonexistent. The same = theory hold for tank cars. regards, Andy Miller -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 7:20 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars ndbprr@att.net asked: Did any ever have PRR markings? It is curious that with the volume of = cars that wound up on the PRR that they had none. Anyone care to venture a = guess as to why? The short answer is that from a car maintenance and utilization = standpoint, it was much easier for railroads to band together and form consortiums = to manage refrigerator car fleets [Ex: Pacific Fruit Express (UP/SP)]. The Pennsy was a major player in Fruit Growers Express; there were reefers = with PRR reporting marks early in the 20th Century, but almost all cars were transferred to FGEX upon its start-up in 1922. A few Class RF reefers = in express service stayed in PRR reporting marks until 1928. A few railroad did manage their own fleets of freight reefers (ATSF = [SFRD], CN, and CP are the most prominent examples), but the majority of roads followed this business model. For a quick overview, check out this page = at Keystone Crossings: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/reefer.ws4d Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:31:14 -0500 From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Refrigerator cars Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Ah Ha! Yes! This is the reason stated by RR employees when I asked this question early in my RR career - 35 years. RR owned equipment could be placed for loading by another RR for any destination, with almost any product for that cartype. Private owner equipment could only be placed for loading on instructions of the owner. This insured that a load of hides was not loaded in a reefer, etc. rendering the car not usable for meat. Also, with RR owned cars the daily car rental (per diem) was a fixed price, until the middle 1960s when a car value rate structure was introduced. Private car ownership allowed the car owner to charge additional car rental (not part of the per diem rates) for their equipment. Garry Spear Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I had always heard that one of the main reasons RRs preferred to operate > their reefers through private owner subsidiaries had to do with the > interchange rules. There were ICC or AAR regulations mandating the return > of empties. These rules did not work well for expensive equipment for > narrowly defined cargo, such as reefers. If the cars were private owner, > then the interchange rules were different (or nonexistent. The same theory > hold for tank cars. > > regards, > Andy Miller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:32 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <511531F7-72AD-11D8-90C3-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning Y'all, I introduced the 14 yr old son of a friend to operations on Saturday at a friends layout (B&M, MEC, circa 1960, http://batherson.com/seamrrc/brwm.htm) and I noted how the industrial district in one corner could be a layout by itself. That led me to start pondering a prototype switching layout based on the PRR. Then I thought - Wait a minute - there's one in my current (grandiose) layout plan (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ Homerr.html)...Oxford PA on the Octoraro Branch! If I did it right, it might even be able to fit into the ultimate layout some day, and if not, the structures would be recycled...and yes, the whole thing would be quite mobile (although no immediate plans to move are in the works). Oh yeah, I plan to write up the planning process for TKM . In the mean time, I could actually have a LAYOUT! Oxford is very, very interesting, in that most trains on the branch did not go through Oxford, but turned and returned to their point of origin at Oxford. Passenger trains consisted of Doodlebugs and the "mushroom train" (which was through), usually with a G5 and 2 PB70s, alternating with a B60b and a PBM70A. Freights were almost exclusively pulled by H class steamers, with an ND cabin until after WWII. A variety of military (troop trains) and other traffic was also seen. My PRRPro R50Bs were almost all destined for this branch anyway. Industries on the 1947 track chart include: at least 3 public delivery tracks Mackey Lumber Co. Oxford Cabinet Co. Sinclair Ref Co. Spencer Oil Abbotts Dairies Oxford Hay and Grain (2 tracks?) Passmore Supply Co. Shocks Oil Packing House In addition there was a water tank and turntable, since most trains turned at Oxford.... So a switching "layout" would consist of "staging" at both ends (possibly a small yard, perhaps a sector plate, or even a single track "cassette") with Oxford in the middle. At least 2 operators could be kept busy, as the "north" and "south" engineers, bringing trains out of staging, into Oxford, performing the work, turning the power, and heading back into staging. Now, I need to do some design work and get more information. I have the High Line on the "Mushroom Train". This has a track schematic and a few photos but what I need are photographs of the buildings along the tracks, and the geographic arrangements of those tracks. I found two more photos of motive power (one on Gary Mittner's site) I think that the Keystone, vol 16, no 2, 1983 "A Half-Century of Train Watching at Oxford, PA" by John F. Harris Sr. has a fair number of photos that might help, but I don't have that issue yet. If anyone has photographs of any of the businesses listed above, or any other information regarding Oxford I would be very interested in seeing them!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:09:32 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Oxford PA Layout plans From: Bruce Smith Message-Id: <511531F7-72AD-11D8-90C3-000A958DAD46@mail.auburn.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Good Morning Y'all, I introduced the 14 yr old son of a friend to operations on Saturday at a friends layout (B&M, MEC, circa 1960, http://batherson.com/seamrrc/brwm.htm) and I noted how the industrial district in one corner could be a layout by itself. That led me to start pondering a prototype switching layout based on the PRR. Then I thought - Wait a minute - there's one in my current (grandiose) layout plan (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/ Homerr.html)...Oxford PA on the Octoraro Branch! If I did it right, it might even be able to fit into the ultimate layout some day, and if not, the structures would be recycled...and yes, the whole thing would be quite mobile (although no immediate plans to move are in the works). Oh yeah, I plan to write up the planning process for TKM . In the mean time, I could actually have a LAYOUT! Oxford is very, very interesting, in that most trains on the branch did not go through Oxford, but turned and returned to their point of origin at Oxford. Passenger trains consisted of Doodlebugs and the "mushroom train" (which was through), usually with a G5 and 2 PB70s, alternating with a B60b and a PBM70A. Freights were almost exclusively pulled by H class steamers, with an ND cabin until after WWII. A variety of military (troop trains) and other traffic was also seen. My PRRPro R50Bs were almost all destined for this branch anyway. Industries on the 1947 track chart include: at least 3 public delivery tracks Mackey Lumber Co. Oxford Cabinet Co. Sinclair Ref Co. Spencer Oil Abbotts Dairies Oxford Hay and Grain (2 tracks?) Passmore Supply Co. Shocks Oil Packing House In addition there was a water tank and turntable, since most trains turned at Oxford.... So a switching "layout" would consist of "staging" at both ends (possibly a small yard, perhaps a sector plate, or even a single track "cassette") with Oxford in the middle. At least 2 operators could be kept busy, as the "north" and "south" engineers, bringing trains out of staging, into Oxford, performing the work, turning the power, and heading back into staging. Now, I need to do some design work and get more information. I have the High Line on the "Mushroom Train". This has a track schematic and a few photos but what I need are photographs of the buildings along the tracks, and the geographic arrangements of those tracks. I found two more photos of motive power (one on Gary Mittner's site) I think that the Keystone, vol 16, no 2, 1983 "A Half-Century of Train Watching at Oxford, PA" by John F. Harris Sr. has a fair number of photos that might help, but I don't have that issue yet. If anyone has photographs of any of the businesses listed above, or any other information regarding Oxford I would be very interested in seeing them!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for > use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing > this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, so I will now cross post. According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for the plain M1's. Anyone? Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 10:44 AM, THOMAS PEARCE wrote: > There were ten different M1b's that had recieved Passenger tender for > use in Passenger service on the Panhandle Divison. I remember hearing > this from somewhere, but I cannot remember where I got the info from. Funny you brought this up. I was going to post this today to PRR-talk, so I will now cross post. According to Stauffer (Pennsy Power I, p. 196) there were 30 M1's initially assigned to passenger service. (20) were plain M1 and (10) were M1a. The M1a's were #'s 6700-6709. I do not have the numbers for the plain M1's. Anyone? Stauffer goes on to state that the "last stand" of the M1's in passenger service was on the Harrisburg-Williamsport-Buffalo route, with 110P75 tenders. Specifically to handle the heavyweights on trains 574/575 (Buffalo Express/Dominion Express) and 580/581 (Northern Express/Southern Express). Does anyone know when these M's were finally replaced by diesels? I figure steam probably lasted until at least the E8's arrived and there was enough steam to go around, then these trains would have likely gotten E7's or PA's. So, who can ante up the latest record of an M1 on a passenger consist (non-excursion) on this line? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:39:26 -0500 From: sjlash [mailto:sjlash@tcis.net] Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's From: Peter Weiglin Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:20:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: sjlash PM
To: omnibus@datatamers.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:
From: Date: Wednesday,
Subject: [PRR] From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:56:32 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Peter, Since you show on the masthead of "N-Scale", I can't help but wonder if you aren't trying to get all us PRR modelers in that scale to cancel our subscriptions????? ; To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's > Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The > only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 > locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The > Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are > indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not > have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara > type engines? > > Peter Weiglin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:22:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Division Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: We're all familiar with the ore traffic through the Susquehanna Division up to Mt. Carmel... and I've got the "Arranged Freight Schedules" of symbol freights off the Susquehanna Division over the Rockville Bridge into Enola... But did any mineral traffic (coal) come down the Susquehanna Division into Enola or Harrisburg? Or did it all go north? Trying to establish if there was any traffic on this route other than the scheduled freight and passenger trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:27:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton Message-Id: <98B02C68-72C0-11D8-AF93-000393835C88@pennsyrr.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Deja vu, for some... Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg more of a layover yard. Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire trip... nice! We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:38:22 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] M1a, not M1b Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Sorry, my mistake, the 6700-6709 were M1a's. Dan Cupper Harrisburg, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ken Nesbitt" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:39:56 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <7A98AC657D327C4180A836ED9FA027A734D0E8@fbpa1mx1.fbcs-inc.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Forget it, this guy is trying to cause controversy, and he apparently does not know the plans for Viagra's and Hudson's were found in a PRR design shop dumpster. Thanks Kenny -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:12 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Another issue of the Keystone has arrived, with its customary high quality. The only complaint is that there is yet more space wasted with information on the T1 locomotive, that useless footnote and blight on the motive power landscape. The Penn people's futile attempts to turn that beast into a passable locomotive are indeed fodder for the historical mill; but one can't help thinking, would it not have been so much easier for them just to buy copies of the Hudson and Niagara type engines? Peter Weiglin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Frantz Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:46:51 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at suscom.net Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Jerry, I recall seeing pictures in books, (unciteable because i'm at school) that had Reading T1's sitting on the outbound tracks in Harrisburg yard destined for a transfer to Rutherford. Also would there have been enough reefer traffic for the Swift plant and other car traffic for Harrisburg Steel? IMHO I would guess that if Enola was the main through-point yard that they would transfer LCL blocks and cars destined for Harrisburg industries to Harrisburg Yard to sort for locals. Theres also the point of freight southbound on the Royalton Branch. What i'm saying is Harrisburg Yard would be used as a main departing point for locals east of Harrisburg on the Mainline. I'm only tossing out some specualtion of possiblities. Best Regards, John Jerry Britton wrote: Deja vu, for some... Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through Harrisburg? Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make Harrisburg more of a layover yard. Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for the entire trip... nice! We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:56:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's From: Jerry Britton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:46 PM, John Frantz wrote: > I recall seeing pictures in books, (unciteable because i'm at school) > that had Reading T1's sitting on the outbound tracks in Harrisburg > yard destined for a transfer to Rutherford. Also would there have been > enough reefer traffic for the Swift plant and other car traffic for > Harrisburg Steel? You are totally missing the point, John. We are looking for traffic other than local classification. There were four trips (or more) between Enola and Rutherford daily, via Harrisburg. There are photos of Pennsy L1's, Reading Trainmasters, Pennsy GP9's, and Reading T1's in this service. As for local traffic, there were dozens of industries in Harrisburg. The Swift plant, Harrisburg Steel, and the steel plant in Steelton would have generated a lot of traffic. But that still would not be enough to require the sizes of yards that Harrisburg had. > IMHO I would guess that if Enola was the main through-point yard that > they would transfer LCL blocks and cars destined for Harrisburg > industries to Harrisburg Yard to sort for locals. Theres also the > point of freight southbound on the Royalton Branch. What i'm saying is > Harrisburg Yard would be used as a main departing point for locals > east of Harrisburg on the Mainline. I'm only tossing out some > specualtion of possiblities. > >> Jerry Britton wrote: >> Deja vu, for some... >> >> Have the 1954 "Arranged Freight Schedules". Nearly all symbol >> freights moving through central Pennsylvania went through Enola.... >> very few went via the Harrisburg side of the river. Yet Harrisburg >> had a very sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just >> sorting freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through >> Harrisburg? >> >> Did eastbound coal cross the Rockville Bridge -- bypassing Enola -- >> then travel through Harrisburg to Columbia? This would make >> Harrisburg more of a layover yard. >> >> Westbound ore? By the way, Stauffer's one book reports that the >> Philadelphia ore pier opened in 1954 and trains passed over the >> Middle Division with two M1's at head and an I1 on the rear... for >> the entire trip... nice! >> >> We did have recollections (years ago) of TT traffic using the >> passenger main through Elizabethtown and Mt. Joy, which would put >> them through Harrisburg, but nothing as early as 1954's LCL traffic. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:00:41 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [151.199.98.179] at Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:00:32 -0600 Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: > Forget it, this guy is trying to cause controversy, and he apparently > does not know > the plans for Viagra's and Hudson's were found in a PRR design shop > dumpster. that must be the locomotive with the extra strong side rods? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:05:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] a C&O fan's interest in the PRR From: b.hom@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:12:43 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:34:14 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone and T1's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: Perhaps running him oput of town on a rail (a cherry red hot one right from the rolling mill) would be more appropriate. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:40:25 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Freight Traffic Mid-1950's Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: In a message dated 3/10/2004 1:27:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > sizable yard.... much more than was needed than for just sorting > freight cars for local delivery. So what DID go through > Harrisburg? Jerry, I always thought that was primarily for serving Steelton's mills and the meat packing plants. That would mean all incoming raw products -- coal, coke, scrap iron/steel, limestone, magnesium, zinc, molybdium (sp?), and all the other additives used in steel making. Outgoing would be steel products and by-products. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "STEPHEN HOXIE" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] M1b's Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:44:17 -0600